I got rid of all my armies except for my Sisters and I do love them n they good at what they can do which is shooting and They do have jacobus with his kill anything Squad But I do miss Close Combat.
So I was wondering what is the Best Close combat army in everyones opinion?
I would like to avoid super Hordes as my Son is on the way in a few months So my husband wont let me spend too much money.
There isn't a one best army in close combat. Almost every army has the ability to do close combat well. Just pick whichever army you want, and build a close-combat-oriented army from it.
I suppose each army does close combat in a slightly different way from other armies, so if you have a particular type of close combat that you want, then we can help you find that close combat style. Otherwise, the remainder of the posts in this threat are likely people just bragging about armies that they own...
You'll probably get alot of different opinions about which one is the best... I think most people would agree that these armies are all pretty good at close combat:
deathwing terminators with all thunderhammers
grey knights with paladins
grey knights with purifiers
spacewolves with thunderwolf cavalry
until recently I would have included blood angels with assault marines and sanguinary priests, but they're so completely overmatched by greyknights in assaults that I don't think they really qualify anymore. Khornate demons and tyranids are obviously going to be good in assaults too, but I don't think they quite stand up to the other armies. Someone will probably disagree with that but whatever. Hope that helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's also something to be said for just building whatever you like and playing it as best you can. The top tier armies change so rapidly that by the time you have one built it might already be out of fashion. People who really invested in competitive Blood Angels were probably mighty disappointed when the Grey Knights book came out, as people who start playing Grey Knights now might be when 6th comes out. There's always alot of flux in competitive 40k.
A Khrone Beserker Chaos Marine Army. A Death Company Blood Angels army. A Horde Ork army. A Grey Knight Paladin Army. They are all good examples of good CC armies.
GreatGunz wrote:You'll probably get alot of different opinions about which one is the best... I think most people would agree that these armies are all pretty good at close combat:
deathwing terminators with all thunderhammers
grey knights with paladins
grey knights with purifiers
spacewolves with thunderwolf cavalry
until recently I would have included blood angels with assault marines and sanguinary priests, but they're so completely overmatched by greyknights in assaults that I don't think they really qualify anymore. Khornate demons and tyranids are obviously going to be good in assaults too, but I don't think they quite stand up to the other armies. Someone will probably disagree with that but whatever. Hope that helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's also something to be said for just building whatever you like and playing it as best you can. The top tier armies change so rapidly that by the time you have one built it might already be out of fashion. People who really invested in competitive Blood Angels were probably mighty disappointed when the Grey Knights book came out, as people who start playing Grey Knights now might be when 6th comes out. There's always alot of flux in competitive 40k.
Blood Angels assault marines with priests are NOT overmatched by most grey knights, even purifiers. Paladins are another story.
The difference is that BA have army wide good assault units, even with no great ones. This means that pound for pound, while we can't match TWC or Paladins, we can beat just about everything else.
I'd go with orks, btw. The sheer number of dice they roll is absolutely absurd. Not even terminators with FNP can take a charge from 30 boyz.
init 6 defeats furious charge. power weapons defeat feel no pain. force weapons defeat mephiston. psycannons defeat the parking lot. Blood Angels consistently come up deuces against Grey Knights. It are fact.
Blood Angels assault marines with priests are NOT overmatched by most grey knights, even purifiers. Paladins are another story.
You do realize that Purifiers can get an I6 Power weapon for 26 points? You do also know that FNP and armor saves are completely negated by Power weapons, right?
Okay, good. Now find me a BA that can get an I6 Power Weapon for 26 pts.
th3maninblak wrote:
I'd go with orks, btw. The sheer number of dice they roll is absolutely absurd. Not even terminators with FNP can take a charge from 30 boyz.
A 10 man Purifier Squad w/ Halberds can wipe out a 30 man unit of boyz before they can strike back in the 2nd turn
Purifiers are the bane of orks. As for ASM, the common set up for purifiers is 5 dudes with 2 halberds, 1 hammer and 2 psycannons. Even with hammerhand theyll only kill 1-2 dudes at i6 before they get wiped.
th3maninblak wrote:Purifiers are the bane of orks. As for ASM, the common set up for purifiers is 5 dudes with 2 halberds, 1 hammer and 2 psycannons. Even with hammerhand theyll only kill 1-2 dudes at i6 before they get wiped.
I'm pretty sure that if you tailor a Purifier unit so that it's no good at CC it won't do very well
The question was "Best CC Army." Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
IIRC cleansing flame makes everyone in the squad take a hit before they get to do anything. That's half the orks right there, and they haven't even done anything. GK are extremely powerful. There's just no getting around it.
GreatGunz wrote:IIRC cleansing flame makes everyone in the squad take a hit before they get to do anything. That's half the orks right there, and they haven't even done anything. GK are extremely powerful. There's just no getting around it.
I'm not trying to disagree that Purifiers will destroy orks almost every time, that's kinda just the way it is XD
If you are going to build an army on a budget, then I'd go Grey knights. If you don't like the feel of Grey knights, then I would go chaos because a MOK makes any squad feel cc oriented.
Best cc army imo: shooty orks- They whittle down things that can kill them while constantly applying pressure to the enemy with shooting before the charge. Many people that build close combat armies neglect to bring a full toolbox to fit the 'theme' and then don't enjoy their games as much because of getting tabled alot.
I'd say GK are easily the best all round assault army.
Everything has assault capabilities, Death Cults may very well be the best assault unit in 40k. But when you mix power armour, storm bolters, terminator armour, psycannons and the various CC weapons they have, with maybe Inquisitors with those silly 'nades or a Librarian. I think Gk have the CC punch, and the staying power to be the 'best' CC army...
rodgers37 wrote:I'd say GK are easily the best all round assault army.
Everything has assault capabilities, Death Cults may very well be the best assault unit in 40k. But when you mix power armour, storm bolters, terminator armour, psycannons and the various CC weapons they have, with maybe Inquisitors with those silly 'nades or a Librarian. I think Gk have the CC punch, and the staying power to be the 'best' CC army...
I second that, but I would say best CC army build instead of CC army.
We've all seen shooty orks and CC Tau. Well, maybe not CC Tau.
Agree it's hard to beat GK, with cleansing flame and init 6 power weapons. It would be bad enough if purifiers were elites, but the fact that they're troops? The GW design team obviously lost their minds letting Matt Ward print that. Paladins are also absurdly hard to beat in close combat.
GreatGunz wrote:It would be bad enough if purifiers were elites, but the fact that they're troops?
They are Elite choices.
Furthermore, most of the time they're taken for the number of psycannons they can bring, which they swap their NFW for. The 10-man squad with as many halberds is all but unheard of.
In the end, they are undercosted super-generalists.
Agreed that the codex as a whole has a good array of powerful tools if you want to play a "punch" army. Don't forget the Stormravens : a fast flying assault vehicle with a reputation for getting in your opponent's face very quickly... if he hasn't shot it down even more quickly, that is.
th3maninblak wrote:Purifiers are the bane of orks. As for ASM, the common set up for purifiers is 5 dudes with 2 halberds, 1 hammer and 2 psycannons. Even with hammerhand theyll only kill 1-2 dudes at i6 before they get wiped.
I'm pretty sure that if you tailor a Purifier unit so that it's no good at CC it won't do very well
The question was "Best CC Army." Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
I think you missed his point. He ran the numbers against a typical squad of Purifiers, ie what you normally will find in a game. But since you mention it, a Fire Dragon in Serpant will nuke most of that squad in one turn of shooting, esp if the squad is guided and doomed.
GreatGunz wrote:It would be bad enough if purifiers were elites, but the fact that they're troops?
They are Elite choices.
Furthermore, most of the time they're taken for the number of psycannons they can bring, which they swap their NFW for. The 10-man squad with as many halberds is all but unheard of.
In the end, they are undercosted super-generalists.
People who play purifier armies take Crowe for their HQ, making purifiers into troops choices. Four out of ten can swap their NFW for a psycannon, and those psycannons will shred through almost anything, weakening a unit, before any assaults happen. So losing four of ten possible halberds for psycannons is not a bad thing. To say that purifiers are super-generalists is wrong in my opinion, because they excel at both shooting and CC. They have the best of both worlds, like paladins, but without as much staying power.
Purifiers die like normal marines. 30 ork boyz with shootas will clear a majority of the squad. 30 boyz letting a purifier squad get close is bad tactics. I think a lot of people forget that tactics is a major part of the game. I run a purifier army, and have been beat by orks a few times because of the sheer amount of guns they have.
thecapn226 wrote: I think a lot of people forget that tactics is a major part of the game.
People forget that the game is not played on a unit by unit case in a vacumn. A good CC unit will have some type of fire support backing them up. BA assault marines are great because they can normally make it to their target in one piece thanks to FNP, even thought it is of no use once they face GK's in Close combat. While those same Grey Knights are getting shot up as they march accross the board.
Purifiers die like normal marines. 30 ork boyz with shootas will clear a majority of the squad. 30 boyz letting a purifier squad get close is bad tactics. I think a lot of people forget that tactics is a major part of the game. I run a purifier army, and have been beat by orks a few times because of the sheer amount of guns they have.
Purifiers should be able to outshoot orks. Those shootas don't have as much range as the psycannons, which means you should get at least two rounds of shooting before the mob can assault you, and one round before they can shoot you.
Even if the entire mob shoots first, that's 29x2 shots at BS2 for 19 hits, 10 wounds, and 7 saves for three dead marines. The remaining seven marines shoot back with 16 S7 AP4 rending shots and 6 S5 (psybolt ammo is a given) AP5 shots. Psycannons hit 11 times, wounding 9, and storm bolters hit 4 times, wounding 3.
If the purifiers shoot first, which is the more likely scenario, we would see the same results from the psycannons, for 9 dead, but an extra 3 dead boyz from the three extra storm bolter marines in the squad, for a total of fifteen dead orks. So we have 14 shootas returning fire, 28 shots, 9 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead purifier.
If I were a purifier player, I don't think I would be too worried about shooting it out with mobs of shoota boyz.
Um sorry but paladins don't out assault those black templar termies with lc, thss mixes.. Those buggers don't care if you have 2 wounds and laugh at their typical 4-5++.
As far as purifiers a smart opponent will just shoot their transports and then kill them as they walk across the board. Outside of 3 options purifier grey knights can be outranged easily. Spearhead and DoW don't help purifier armies either.
A full IG power blob on the charge with straken and a preist has:
24 S4 I4 power weapon attacks with re-rolls.
90 S4 I4 normal attacks with re-rolls.
As well as having 51 wounds.
Pretty impressive, really.
Assault marines are impossibke to look at in a vacuum. Is there a sanguinary priest with them? Hiw about a libby with unleash rage and the all important hood to stop things like hammerhand?
Khorne daemons, while arguably not competitive, are pretty awesome in CC. Juggernauts and bloodthirsters rule.
helium42 wrote:People who play purifier armies take Crowe for their HQ, making purifiers into troops choices. Four out of ten can swap their NFW for a psycannon, and those psycannons will shred through almost anything, weakening a unit, before any assaults happen. So losing four of ten possible halberds for psycannons is not a bad thing. To say that purifiers are super-generalists is wrong in my opinion, because they excel at both shooting and CC. They have the best of both worlds, like paladins, but without as much staying power.
Crowe, however, is a word quite different from Purifiers. We were not discussing the former.
If they were correctly priced or if Crowe didn't exist, they would just be a bit cheesy. If I field Purifiers as Elite choices as they were meant to be and someone starts bitching about it, not going to take it kindly.
And of course they're super generalists. They aren't specialists, so they're generalists. They are better at both than even some specialists, hence the "super".
Um idk if they're super because of the fact their heavy weapons are short range AND if they do trade in for max heavy weapons and take a hammer so walkers don't walk all over them they are not gonna be vastly better at cc then a dedicated cc unit. Also they can never be better then a dedicated shooting unit like devs, long fangs, blasterborn etc.
I am not comparing them just directly to each other either. A vendetta with meltavets is better then a 10 man purifier squad with 4 psycanons, 1 hammer and the rest halbers at shooting for pretty close the same price.
Yes I agree they're generalists but compared to dedicated units in the new books they don't outclass them at their own game. Even older dedicated stuff like thss, lc termies from the bt book slaughter paladins or purifiers.
GreatGunz wrote:It would be bad enough if purifiers were elites, but the fact that they're troops?
They are Elite choices.
Furthermore, most of the time they're taken for the number of psycannons they can bring, which they swap their NFW for. The 10-man squad with as many halberds is all but unheard of.
In the end, they are undercosted super-generalists.
People who play purifier armies take Crowe for their HQ, making purifiers into troops choices. Four out of ten can swap their NFW for a psycannon, and those psycannons will shred through almost anything, weakening a unit, before any assaults happen. So losing four of ten possible halberds for psycannons is not a bad thing. To say that purifiers are super-generalists is wrong in my opinion, because they excel at both shooting and CC. They have the best of both worlds, like paladins, but without as much staying power.
yep. They're effectively troops because people who understand how crazy good they are will always drop the 100-so points it costs to take an army full of them. They're not really elites at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
thecapn226 wrote:I think a lot of people forget that tactics is a major part of the game.
Tactics are a huge part of this game. I was able to consistently beat top armies with chaos by capitalizing on the few strengths CSM have and out playing people.
Honestly, if you are looking for a cheap, fun assault army, I'd just use the Sisters you have as a base. A SoB assault army has a few weaknesses (It's come up in a few threads recently), but for the most part they are the same weaknesses as any SoB list - strong long range shooting and lists designed to pop AV11 transports en masse. It can rip up a lot of armies though, especially the assault specialists in this thread.
Immo zoom forward, melt anything nasy. dominions hop out and melt something nasty after that. After that it's a wall of walkers, Uriah bomb and 2 cars full of eviscerators zooming up, all of which will tear apart nearly anything they reach. SoB squads sit on rear/mid objectives and pop whatever tansports they can reach with their melta. I use extra points to throw on hunter-killers... they don't do much, but they add some first turn punch to an army that mostly arrives on 2-3 or so.
If you really want to draw some fire from PE and get some cover fire, throw in an exorcist and drop down to 2 PE squads. I've also experimented with giving the Repentia immolators instead so they can open a transport and let the immo burn the contents - but I think having more repentia does more damage in the end. One weapon vehicles lose their one shot too fast.
At 2.5k you can get Kyrinov & bomb in the backfield to give your sisters fearless and a nasty countercharge unit.
Plus, it just adds to army options to play around with for your SoB army.
JennyBunny wrote:So I was wondering what is the Best Close combat army in everyones opinion?
I would like to avoid super Hordes as my Son is on the way in a few months So my husband wont let me spend too much money.
Firstly, congratulations!
Secondly, I personally would have to say either Space Wolves, Grey Knights or Tyranids.
Space Wolves have all the good stats of Space Marines but are fightier! They may not have the mobility of Blood Angels but they have some nasty wargear and special rules that more than compensate. They are also, in my opinion, simple enough to understand that you can change what units you use without needing to completely reinvent your army list or even your overall tactics (depending on which units and how many, of course), making them very easy to expand upon if you choose to do so in the future.
Grey Knights; specifically Purifiers, are very tough. They also have all the good stats of Space Marines AND have psyker powers but their points cost reflect that. I haven't played against a Grey Knight army as of yet but i understand that they are as good as, if not better than, they appear on paper. Purifiers can also be taken as a Troop Choice making them doubly useful when playing Objective missions. There are plenty of support options in this army but if you want to stay Close Combat oriented you are quite limited so i wouldn't say they are an easy army to expand upon.
Tyranids; specifically Genestealers, wreck face! Outflank and Fleet will often see them reach a juicy target quickly and with their stupid amount of rending attacks that juicy target will almost certainly end up dead. They are also about the same points cost as Space Marines and you can take some Monstrous Creatures for support and/or to keep your model count down. Tyranids as a whole are very Close Combat oriented so you have plenty of options if you ever wish to expand upon them.
Let us not forget the most feared unit in all of 40K.......wait for it........a 30 man squad of Death Company marines led by Lemartes. FNP, fearless, furious charge, and relentless all come stock. Any, let me repeat ANY model can take a power weapon, a power fist, or a thunder hammer and on the charge hits at Int 5 and str 5! Not even counting Lemartes' ridiculous buffs when wounded, this squad can deal out (90) str 5 attacks at Int 5! nuff said.
Id agree fully here, force / power weapons on every unit. Crazy grenades, hammerhand, Rock hard ICs like Draigo the list goes on.
rodgers37 wrote:I'd say GK are easily the best all round assault army.
Everything has assault capabilities, Death Cults may very well be the best assault unit in 40k. But when you mix power armour, storm bolters, terminator armour, psycannons and the various CC weapons they have, with maybe Inquisitors with those silly 'nades or a Librarian. I think Gk have the CC punch, and the staying power to be the 'best' CC army...
Purifiers are such an easy button that it's really criminal. There's literally nothing in the game they cannot handle.
High I? Halberds.
Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Vehicles? Hammerhand + Might from Librarian.
High T units? Again, Hammerhand.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.
You point them toward the enemy, click "go", and watch the fun.
Purifiers are such an easy button that it's really criminal. There's literally nothing in the game they cannot handle.
High I? Halberds.
Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Vehicles? Hammerhand + Might from Librarian.
High T units? Again, Hammerhand.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.
You point them toward the enemy, click "go", and watch the fun.
Ok if its that easy send them at BT termies with th/ss and lc.. They'll eat purifiers or pallys in cc. lol Prefered enemy on those guys is just dirty.
That isn't part of the requirement. The only point of contention is best cc. If the purifier squad trades in for psycanons and a hammer they will be incredibly limited plus the popular squad size is 5 which has no chance in cc.
Vs all the proposed deathstars from the gk book outside of the dca/crusader one the bt deathstar has an advantage.
well yeah, you can kill a 200 point purifier squad, not optimized for close combat, with a 400 point squad of assault terminators. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
It's not just assault termies.. It's termies with prefered enemy that makes a difference and many don't care for pts in the twc thread when they say ANY gk is their enemy and they cost just s much. Its the combination of what the bt templar bring.
Also I don't see why people discuss purifiers in cc comparision since NO ONE ever brings them as described in the scenarios BUT everyone brings templar termies, twc etc a certain way for cc exclusively. lol
It's not always best case scenario gk. BT with all the tank hunter and such can shoot with gk and with the termies do cc with gk so then why is people always take a cop out answer and say gk win or are easy win buttons?
Congratulations on your baby. Nice to see other women playing Warhammer 40k.
Grey Knights is probably the best assault army. Purifiers with cleansing flame beats hordes. Deathcult assasins + crusader unit with lots of initiative 6 power weapon attacks joined by an inquisitor with hammerhand, rad and psychotroke grenades pretty much kills everything else.
Drago and Paladins is probably the cheapest way to make a grey knight army that is powerful in assault and shooting with few models. Although you want some purifiers to deal with hordes.
Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
Furioso Deadnought whit blood talons -125
Sure you go first against front armor of 13 and WS 6
Meanwhile he gets extra attacks whit every unsaved wound he caused.
He will go through your unit like hot knife throgh butter
Space Wolves and Tyranids are armies that came to mind whenever I thought of close combat.
Space Wolves have a lot tougher units that are fairly good at beating the crap out of anything they run into.
Tyranids do not have to play horde armies and you could play a monstrous creature list or play with a good bit of genestealers and warriors with some monstrous creatures and do fairly well.
I play Eldar personally and I like close combat a lot. In most of my lists I play with 2 really strong close combat squads backed up by some really good shooting. It creates multiple threats between the close combat squads and some really good shooting such as fire prisms and the enemy has hard a time killing everything because of the wave serpent energy shield and holofields on the fireprisms.
So an eldar mech assault list would include:
hq: any combination of yriel, eldrad, farseers, and autarchs
Troops: Dire avengers or storm guardians setup with 3 flamers(I recommend Dire Avengers)
Elites: 1 or 2 squads of Howling Banshees (For a mech list banshees are a better option)
Heavy Support: any combinations of: Fire prisms and Night spinners
The dire avengers offer high volume close range fire power which can be upgraded by psychich powers and the fire prisms provide anti tank as well as anti horde. The banshees should take on the enemies toughest squad. With all power weapons and I10 on the charge as well as some psychic upgrades they can pretty well kill anything.
Draigo wrote:It's not just assault termies.. It's termies with prefered enemy that makes a difference and many don't care for pts in the twc thread when they say ANY gk is their enemy and they cost just s much. Its the combination of what the bt templar bring.
Also I don't see why people discuss purifiers in cc comparision since NO ONE ever brings them as described in the scenarios BUT everyone brings templar termies, twc etc a certain way for cc exclusively. lol
It's not always best case scenario gk. BT with all the tank hunter and such can shoot with gk and with the termies do cc with gk so then why is people always take a cop out answer and say gk win or are easy win buttons?
You can't take an entire army of BT Assault Terminators by taking a sub-200 pt character. When do you ever see anyone taking >1 unit @ ~2,000 pts? They also have ZERO shooting capability. In addition, most don't run them with TH/SS anyway because they want to benefit from Furious Charge. Guess what? Purifiers don't care about Furious Charge. With I6 Halberds, they're STILL striking first, and that's assuming that the BT get the charge.
On top of being better in H2H and shooting, Purifiers also get psychic defense and most likely benefit from a combination of hoods and Improved Aegis from riflemen in the early game. BT Assault Terminators get lashed into a bundle and plasma cannoned. They get Weaken Resolved, take one casualty, and run off of the board. Don't forget that BT are incredibly vulnerable to Weaken Resolve.
Purifiers are, point for point, so astronomically better than BT Assault Terminators that it's stupid to even compare the two. The rest of the codex falls right in line.
And let's be honest...GK also have DCA, which would eat a full squad of BT Assault Templars in one round of combat and laugh about it on the way home.
th3maninblak wrote:Assault marines are impossibke to look at in a vacuum. Is there a sanguinary priest with them? Hiw about a libby with unleash rage and the all important hood to stop things like hammerhand?
Khorne daemons, while arguably not competitive, are pretty awesome in CC. Juggernauts and bloodthirsters rule.
Yeah, I've got a friend who apparently makes excellent use of his Khorne Daemons...I play BA and other than shooting it to death, it's pretty intimidating in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ^Bloodthirster, that is.
Congrats on your coming child. Just curious, but is your S.O. supportive in you hobby? I think most spouses aren't, but if yours is, then you are very lucky.
@thread:
I just have one thing to say about Purifier grey knights:
They are NOT a great assault army. Yes, purifiers could be good in assault as they have the tools to handle almost any enemy unit. However, as an army, a Crowe-Purifier build is not a great assault army. That is because they are balanced with good assault and good shooting as well. They will not beat other assault armies in direct combat. Rather, they rely on their shooting to weaken the enemy before finishing them off in assault. A decent purifier build is a very balanced army. Balanced armies are usually never really extraordinary in any one aspect. Rather, they are good in all but never excellent in one.
Draigo wrote:It's not just assault termies.. It's termies with prefered enemy that makes a difference and many don't care for pts in the twc thread when they say ANY gk is their enemy and they cost just s much. Its the combination of what the bt templar bring.
Also I don't see why people discuss purifiers in cc comparision since NO ONE ever brings them as described in the scenarios BUT everyone brings templar termies, twc etc a certain way for cc exclusively. lol
It's not always best case scenario gk. BT with all the tank hunter and such can shoot with gk and with the termies do cc with gk so then why is people always take a cop out answer and say gk win or are easy win buttons?
You can't take an entire army of BT Assault Terminators by taking a sub-200 pt character. When do you ever see anyone taking >1 unit @ ~2,000 pts? They also have ZERO shooting capability. In addition, most don't run them with TH/SS anyway because they want to benefit from Furious Charge. Guess what? Purifiers don't care about Furious Charge. With I6 Halberds, they're STILL striking first, and that's assuming that the BT get the charge.
On top of being better in H2H and shooting, Purifiers also get psychic defense and most likely benefit from a combination of hoods and Improved Aegis from riflemen in the early game. BT Assault Terminators get lashed into a bundle and plasma cannoned. They get Weaken Resolved, take one casualty, and run off of the board. Don't forget that BT are incredibly vulnerable to Weaken Resolve.
Purifiers are, point for point, so astronomically better than BT Assault Terminators that it's stupid to even compare the two. The rest of the codex falls right in line.
And let's be honest...GK also have DCA, which would eat a full squad of BT Assault Templars in one round of combat and laugh about it on the way home.
Dude improved aegis only matter if a dread is close by.. That doesn't happen when people are using psyfleman. Also most crowe lists don't have a hood in the list. So they can be lashed just as easy and don't have ANY invulns. It's not stupid the thread is called best cc not pt for pt. Weaken resolve works really good on any squad that has leadership 9 like purifiers, grey hunters with wolf guard etc. You will care about furious charge since you will go before half of a 10 man squad of purifiers.
A 10 man unit of purifiers would on average, kill 2 terminators w/ LCs per turn with hammerhand. The Terminators in return would kill 7 on the charge. Without Preffered enemy
Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
Furioso Deadnought whit blood talons -125
Sure you go first against front armor of 13 and WS 6
Meanwhile he gets extra attacks whit every unsaved wound he caused.
He will go through your unit like hot knife throgh butter
Sure, if he can get past the 20+ str. 8 attacks GK throw out every turn. He's only av 12 but whatever. Crazy things happen.
Blood Angels are utterly hosed against GK. It are fact.
Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
Furioso Deadnought whit blood talons -125
Sure you go first against front armor of 13 and WS 6
Meanwhile he gets extra attacks whit every unsaved wound he caused.
He will go through your unit like hot knife throgh butter
Sure, if he can get past the 20+ str. 8 attacks GK throw out every turn. He's only av 12 but whatever. Crazy things happen.
Blood Angels are utterly hosed against GK. It are fact.
You gave all 10 purifiers hammers? Um you are dead before the purifiers get to swing vs a furioso then. lol If you wanted to do that you might as well use sisters repentia.. at least if their act of faith goes off they get their attacks even if killed first. lol Furioso is av 13. Im curious when these debates start if the OMG gk are OP actually read the codex or just toss out random answers.
sub-zero wrote:Let us not forget the most feared unit in all of 40K.......wait for it........a 30 man squad of Death Company marines led by Lemartes. FNP, fearless, furious charge, and relentless all come stock. Any, let me repeat ANY model can take a power weapon, a power fist, or a thunder hammer and on the charge hits at Int 5 and str 5! Not even counting Lemartes' ridiculous buffs when wounded, this squad can deal out (90) str 5 attacks at Int 5! nuff said.
sub-zero wrote:Let us not forget the most feared unit in all of 40K.......wait for it........a 30 man squad of Death Company marines led by Lemartes. FNP, fearless, furious charge, and relentless all come stock. Any, let me repeat ANY model can take a power weapon, a power fist, or a thunder hammer and on the charge hits at Int 5 and str 5! Not even counting Lemartes' ridiculous buffs when wounded, this squad can deal out (90) str 5 attacks at Int 5! nuff said.
For only like, Infinity points too!
Only 750 points with Lemartes, not including the extra PW's of course.
Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
Furioso Deadnought whit blood talons -125
Sure you go first against front armor of 13 and WS 6
Meanwhile he gets extra attacks whit every unsaved wound he caused.
He will go through your unit like hot knife throgh butter
Sure, if he can get past the 20+ str. 8 attacks GK throw out every turn. He's only av 12 but whatever. Crazy things happen.
Blood Angels are utterly hosed against GK. It are fact.
You gave all 10 purifiers hammers? Um you are dead before the purifiers get to swing vs a furioso then. lol If you wanted to do that you might as well use sisters repentia.. at least if their act of faith goes off they get their attacks even if killed first. lol Furioso is av 13. Im curious when these debates start if the OMG gk are OP actually read the codex or just toss out random answers.
I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
GreatGunz wrote:I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
THIS IS BEST CC ARMY NOT SHOOTING!!! LOL We aren't debating shooting good lord read the title man! lol
GreatGunz wrote:I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
Furioso dreads are av 13 front armor. with ws 6. If you want to talk about death company dreads, can take 2 of them for that pt value they are av 12 but they ignore shaken and stunned, as well as having fleet, furious charge, and 5 attack on the charge.
GreatGunz wrote:I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
Furioso dreads are av 13 front armor. with ws 6. If you want to talk about death company dreads, can take 2 of them for that pt value they are av 12 but they ignore shaken and stunned, as well as having fleet, furious charge, and 5 attack on the charge.
GreatGunz wrote:I don't have the book in front of me. Look, if you think grey knights can't bust av 12 vehicles you're wrong. If you think having 16 str. 7 attacks in ONE SQUAD is anything but AMAZING you're also wrong. I can't believe I'm even having this debate. Grey Knights shred light armor. It is well known. It is definitely a fact. The Dread idea is silly. This too is a fact. I rest my case.
THIS IS BEST CC ARMY NOT SHOOTING!!! LOL We aren't debating shooting good lord read the title man! lol
lol indeed
4 Psycannons for shooting? You can't make shooting GKs, it's not allowed!
10 Halberds in CC? You can't do that herpderp
Listen, dude, you can build a pure CC unit of Purifiers, you can build a pure shooty unit of Purifiers, or you can go the standard list of 2 Psy 1 Hammer and 2 Halberds, it doesn't matter what you do, it just matters what you're up against, they're good no matter what style they are. The only thing that changes is their focus.
PS, a squad of Purifiers with 4 Psycannons has a 60% chance to destroy a Furioso Dread in 1 turn of shooting plus a 30% chance to immobilize.
You could even go crazy and do something totally nuts and build one squad of Purifiers with ranged shooting in mind, complete with Psybolt ammunition and another Squad built for CC with Halberds. CRAaAAAzy I know.
No one said purifiers aren't good but they are not better. This is the BEST not whos the best shooting and cc. Hence why pure cc units like th/ssbt, furiosos are mentioned. In cc things like daemons, lc termies/th termies etc, banshees etc are used.
Avariel wrote:Congratulations on your baby. Nice to see other women playing Warhammer 40k.
Grey Knights is probably the best assault army. Purifiers with cleansing flame beats hordes. Deathcult assasins + crusader unit with lots of initiative 6 power weapon attacks joined by an inquisitor with hammerhand, rad and psychotroke grenades pretty much kills everything else.
Drago and Paladins is probably the cheapest way to make a grey knight army that is powerful in assault and shooting with few models. Although you want some purifiers to deal with hordes.
Even better, get Castellan Crowe and put him in your Paladin unit, now your Paladin unit has Cleansing Flame which would look something like this
Avariel wrote:Congratulations on your baby. Nice to see other women playing Warhammer 40k.
Grey Knights is probably the best assault army. Purifiers with cleansing flame beats hordes. Deathcult assasins + crusader unit with lots of initiative 6 power weapon attacks joined by an inquisitor with hammerhand, rad and psychotroke grenades pretty much kills everything else.
Drago and Paladins is probably the cheapest way to make a grey knight army that is powerful in assault and shooting with few models. Although you want some purifiers to deal with hordes.
Even better, get Castellan Crowe and put him in your Paladin unit, now your Paladin unit has Cleansing Flame which would look something like this
Cept Crowe isn't an IC. You sure you know what you're talking about?
No one said purifiers aren't good but they are not better. This is the BEST not whos the best shooting and cc. Hence why pure cc units like th/ssbt, furiosos are mentioned. In cc things like daemons, lc termies/th termies etc, banshees etc are used.
The key fact that seems to elude you is that Purifiers are easy buttons against 99% of units out there, the one exception that you can muster being a relatively obscure dedicated assault unit.
Let's not talk about what you can't throw Purifiers at, rather what you CAN throw them at:
Anything with multiple wounds.
Anything with high I (cleansing flame beats the gak out of Banshees before they even get to strike)
Anything with AV (Librarian support makes short work of Furioso dreads)
Anything with high T
Anything of the horde variety
The list goes on and on.
BT Terminators are going to get their asses handed to them by a 30-man unit of Boyz or any unit that can put out a ton of attacks. A Nid deathstar is also going to punk that unit. Furioso dreads? Have fun throwing a unit of BT Assault Terminators into a DC Blender Dread or a Furioso.
Cept Crowe isn't an IC. You sure you know what you're talking about?
Oh wow. I'm sorry.
I guess Crowe does suck then. Kudos Mat Ward.
While I'm on this streak of failure I might as well admit that TH/SS do feth up some Purifiers in CC and so do Furioso Dreads. LC Termies are a little bit more mixed and I think it depends on who assaults.
We may never agree on which army is the best at Close Combat but we may see how good Draigo is in a fist fight at this rate
I had forgotten about Furioso Dreadnoughts and Blood Talons (who wouldn't want to forget that bs?). That combo alone is a very good reason to play Blood Angels.
BA is ok, but death company is weaksauce. Have those dreads/DC go chasing some useless rhino/land speeder or drop an empty drop pod in their backfield. Then start laughing. LOL!
My friend played against BA at last year's Ard Boyz with his Tau. Faced a 30-man death company unit and just sent them on a wild goose chase after some gun drones. Lol!
No one said purifiers aren't good but they are not better. This is the BEST not whos the best shooting and cc. Hence why pure cc units like th/ssbt, furiosos are mentioned. In cc things like daemons, lc termies/th termies etc, banshees etc are used.
The key fact that seems to elude you is that Purifiers are easy buttons against 99% of units out there, the one exception that you can muster being a relatively obscure dedicated assault unit.
Let's not talk about what you can't throw Purifiers at, rather what you CAN throw them at:
Anything with multiple wounds.
Anything with high I (cleansing flame beats the gak out of Banshees before they even get to strike)
Anything with AV (Librarian support makes short work of Furioso dreads)
Anything with high T
Anything of the horde variety
The list goes on and on.
BT Terminators are going to get their asses handed to them by a 30-man unit of Boyz or any unit that can put out a ton of attacks. A Nid deathstar is also going to punk that unit. Furioso dreads? Have fun throwing a unit of BT Assault Terminators into a DC Blender Dread or a Furioso.
You are assuming the die rolls for purifiers.
By that logic assault marines can beat purifiers since they only have a 3+ save. Any unit with a power weapon can win.
Orkz don't auto win either since vs lc and being fearles will eat a lot of extra wounds plus die first to a better I.
A jacobus bomb will eat purifiers as well. Celestine will..
How many units you want? I mean all the what ifs you wanna toss in you can't say anything is best.
Its not so much that any unit with a power weapon can win... its that any unit with an initiative 6 power weapon to deal with meq and cleansing flame to deal with hordes and all those heavy weapon attacks to deal with vehicles and hammerhand and scoring.... there just isn't anything that unit can't do. It's an easy button.
BUt youre missing the point. This is only a cc discussion. Weve done the math on other threads that only a full size 10 man purifier has it that easy vs orkz. The math was done using the popular load out for a 5 and 10 man.
Draigo wrote:BUt youre missing the point. This is only a cc discussion. Weve done the math on other threads that only a full size 10 man purifier has it that easy vs orkz. The math was done using the popular load out for a 5 and 10 man.
You still don't understand.
Maybe this will help: What other unit is effective against as many other units in the game as Purifiers?
Draigo wrote:BUt youre missing the point. This is only a cc discussion. Weve done the math on other threads that only a full size 10 man purifier has it that easy vs orkz. The math was done using the popular load out for a 5 and 10 man.
You still don't understand.
Maybe this will help: What other unit is effective against as many other units in the game as Purifiers?
Terminators of any variety, fnp bubbled assault marines, gh, wraiths, bloodcrushers, power blobs, death company, furisoso, death company dread etc. No I get your point but you just want to ignore purely cc discussion. You other pathetic pt of contention is pts but then you still persist purifiers are cheaper then termies but have some other silly reason to discount gh and furioso. Theyre cheaper and for their pts better in cc,
Draigo wrote:
Terminators of any variety, fnp bubbled assault marines, gh, wraiths, bloodcrushers, power blobs, death company, furisoso, death company dread etc. No I get your point but you just want to ignore purely cc discussion. You other pathetic pt of contention is pts but then you still persist purifiers are cheaper then termies but have some other silly reason to discount gh and furioso. Theyre cheaper and for their pts better in cc,
Bloodcrushers, yes. Furiosos, no. If equipped with Blood Talons a Furioso is denying itself the ability to compete with walkers. Yes, it might be able to chew through a unit of Boyz or Nobz with fancy equipment, but it can't take down a unit of Killa Kans.
Death Company are horrifying, and so are Terminators most of the time. But note that Terminators can be beaten by Boyz of a sufficient quantity and FnP is nulled by force weapons, making it irrelevant in CC against GKs.
The only way a Death Company, in fact, can beat a unit of GKs is by stacking a sufficient number of power weapons. People really forget how substantial a 3+ armor save and Force weapons really are. They're terrifying. Most codexes have to pay 15 pts just to get a Power Weapon. With Assault Marines, you'd better not expect that FnP to go very far, especially considering GKs have Power Weapons and more base attacks. Even in the event of a charge, you'd still need 3 Assault Marine attacks to equal a single GK attack. That FnP is only worth a gak in shooting, and effectively that makes assault marines a wasted investment against GKs.
And obviously SS Terminators are meant to counter power weapons. Such as things should be. Units should have counters anyway. Dread > Furioso > Infantry > Dread and so forth. But only units with both a substantial armor save and an invulnerable save can really compete against Purifiers. That means that entire units are just null against GKs whereas before you might have a list that has a substantial volume of Power Weapons, even in a list intentionally designed to counter high armor save models, you at least had the advantage of sparing cost, and at least some guarantee that some portion of the units in the enemy's list wouldn't be delivering Power Weapons. It's not even that GKs can't be countered in CC, it's that they so thoroughly trounce horde units and high armor save or multi wound models that they're not even worth picking in a GK matchup. If it were one or two units in a list, you could say, okay, I cannot use Boyz/Nobs against that unit but at least I can use them here and so forth.
Draigo wrote:BUt youre missing the point. This is only a cc discussion. Weve done the math on other threads that only a full size 10 man purifier has it that easy vs orkz. The math was done using the popular load out for a 5 and 10 man.
You still don't understand.
Maybe this will help: What other unit is effective against as many other units in the game as Purifiers?
Terminators of any variety, fnp bubbled assault marines, gh, wraiths, bloodcrushers, power blobs, death company, furisoso, death company dread etc. No I get your point but you just want to ignore purely cc discussion. You other pathetic pt of contention is pts but then you still persist purifiers are cheaper then termies but have some other silly reason to discount gh and furioso. Theyre cheaper and for their pts better in cc,
And yet you still don't understand. None of these units is nearly as good against nearly as many other units as Purifiers. IN HAND TO HAND.
Terminators don't do well against hordes, FNP Marines don't do well against Monstrous Creatures, Wraiths don't do well against walkers, Furiosos don't do well against monstrous creatures and if they have Blood Talons, they can't scratch enemy walkers, so on and so forth. IN HAND TO HAND.
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
BT Terminators are going to get their asses handed to them by a 30-man unit of Boyz or any unit that can put out a ton of attacks. A Nid deathstar is also going to punk that unit. Furioso dreads? Have fun throwing a unit of BT Assault Terminators into a DC Blender Dread or a Furioso.
As opposed to the Purifiers, who get their asses handled to them every bit as much as the BT Terminators against said units?
WARNING: EXTENSIVE MATHHAMMER AHEAD
Spoiler:
Assuming the BT Termies are 4 claws and 1 hammer and they get charged by 29 Boyz with a Nob (shootas, because sluggas are subpar for footslogging) the following happens:
59 BS2 shots (2 per shoota and 1 slugga on the Nob) - 19.66666... hits, rounded to 20. 10 wounds, 1.666 casualties, rounded to 2. If the Terminators fail their RZ roll (1/6 chance) chances are they'll be out of charge range, regrouping to fight another day next turn.
If 2 Claws die: Templars hit back first, 6 LC attacks. 4.5 hits, 3.375 wounds Orks, rounded to 3. Nob takes one wound, 2 Orks die. Orks attack, 81 attacks, 40.5 hits, 20.25 wounds, Termies die.
If 1 Claw and the Hammer are killed: Templars hit back first, 9 LC attacks, 6.75 hits, 5 wounds. 4 dead Orks and one wound on the Nob. 75 Ork attacks, 37.5 hits, 18.75 wounds, Terminators wiped out.
Reverse the situation and assume that the Terminators charge the Orks: 16 LC attacks, 12 hits, 9 wounds. 8 dead Orks and a wound on the Nob. 42 Ork attacks, 21 hits, 7 wounds. 1 Terminator bites the dust. Nob swings with 3 PK attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds. Hammer attacks, 2.25 hits, 1.875 wounds. Rounded to 2.
Taking the save on the Storm Shield leads to 0.41666... dead Terminators, rounded to 0. The Terminators lose one guy, the Orks lose 11 wounds (10 boyz and one on the Nob). No retreat leads to 8 more casualties, leaving the Orks at 11 boyz and the Nob
ROUND 2:
3 LC Terminators attack with 9 attacks, 6.75 hits, 5 wounds. Orks are down to 6 boyz and the Nob. 6 boyz hit back with 12 attacks, hitting with 6, causing 2 wounds, netting a total of 0 dead Terminators. PK swings, causing 1.25 wounds (as above). Hammer attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 wound after rounding. Odds are the TH/SS guy goes down to the Klaw.
Terminators lose one guy, Boyz lose 6. Boyz lose combat by 5 and need 3 or lower to not run, which means it's highly likely that they'll run. Victory for the Templars.
In summary: If the Boyz charge, they win. If the Terminators charge, they win.
Now, let's investigate Purifiers against Boyz. Assuming a 10-man squad with 4 Psycannons and a hammer, with the rest wielding halberds:
If boyz charge:
59 BS2 shots (2 per shoota and 1 slugga on the Nob) - 19.66666... hits, rounded to 20. 10 wounds, 3.333 casualties, rounded to 3. Assume 1 Psycannon and 2 halberds die.
Cleansing Flame goes off, wounding 15 Orks. 13 wounds, 12 die (Nob takes a wound). Purifiers strike first with 6 PW attacks and 6 normal (I know they don't strike at the same time, but it doesn't matter in this case). 3 hits of each, 1.5 wounds of each. Assume 2 PW wounds and 1 normal to be generous. 3 boyz die.
Boyz swing. 42 attacks, 21 hits, 10.5 wounds, rounded to 11. 4 purifiers bite the dust. Assuming that the hammer survives, it swings back. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.84 wounds, rounded to 1. The PK swings, 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.666... wounds, rounded to 2.
Orks have lost 17 wounds, 16 of which are boyz. The Purifiers have lost 6 Purifiers in combat. Boyz lose combat by 10 but are still fearless, taking 8 fearless wounds.
ROUND 2:
Cleansing Flame goes off. 7 wounds, 6 dead Orks. Assuming 1 Psycannon and 1 halberd remains, that's 4 attacks, 2 wounds and 2 dead Orks. 5 remaining Orks attack, generating 5 hits, 1.666 wounds and as a result 1 dead Purifier.
Orks lost 9, Purifiers lost 2. Orks lose by 7 and need snakeeyes to not run, meaning they most likely die. Sure, the Orks are dead. Have fun with your remaining one Purifier.
As a side-note, the Purifiers in this example cost quite a bit more points than the Orks, so it actually comes out in the Ork's favour anyway.
Assuming the Purifiers charge:
12 storm bolter shots and 8 psycannon shots, 6 and 4 hits, 3 and 3 wounds. 6 Orks die (Nob doesn't take one to reduce the number of hits from Cleansing Flame)
Cleansing Flame: 24 hits, 12 wounds, 9 dead and Nob takes one for the team.
15 PW attacks and 12 normal causing 7.5 and 6 hits, causing 3 and 3 wounds. One Ork passes his save, so 5 die.
Hammer swings, 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds. 1 dead. Klaw does the same, killing 1 Purifier.
Purifiers have lost 2, Orks have lost 16. Orks lose combat by 14. Orks need snakeeyes, which isn't likely to happen.
In summary, Purifiers beat Orks one round faster than the Terminators, but seeing as the Purifiers also cost quite a bit more points more than the Terminators, that's not unfair at all.
Now, let's compare the two units to each other. In this assumption, we assume 10 Purifiers with 5 halberds, 4 psycannons and a hammer facing off against 5 LC Terminators and 2 TH/SS ones. We also assume that hammerhand goes off.
Assuming the Terminators charge:
5 Purifiers strike first: 10 attacks, 5 hit, 3 wounds. Two TH/SS Terminators save, one LC dies.
Purifiers are wiped from the face of the board, Terminators lose one Terminator.
Assuming the Purifiers charge:
12 storm bolter shots and 8 psycannon shots, 6 and 4 hits, 3 and 3 wounds, not accounting for rending. 1 Terminator dies. Righteous Zeal gives the Terminators 1/6 chance to fall back, potentially saving them.
Purifiers strike first:
15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 5 wounds. Two TH/SS Terminators save, one LC saves, 2 LC dies.
3 LC Terminators strike back, 9 attacks, 6.75 hits, 5.0625 wounds, rounded to 5. 5 Purifiers die. Assume that the 5 Halberds take the hit, as they're the least valuable. Psycannon Purifiers strike back at the same time, 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds. 1 dead Terminator, assume a LC as they've already attacked.
Hammers attack, Justicar deals 0.84 wounds, saved by a SS (see above). 4 TH/SS attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.75 wounds, rounded to 4. 4 dead Purifiers.
Purifiers lose 9, Terminators lose 3. The Justicar needs to roll a 3 or less to not fall back. Either way, Terminators win, even when they get charged.
Now, let's assume the worst-case scenario: 10 Purifiers with halberds charge 6 Terminators (4 LC, 2 TH/SS).
20 Storm Bolter shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1 dead Terminator (assume a LC).
Purifiers hit first, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds. 1 TH/SS survives. He hits back and kills 1. Purifiers win.
That, however, is a completely unrealistical unit, as the Grey Knights need every Psycannon they can get their hands on. Furthermore, a unit such as that is fethed over as soon as a walker gets to them.
IN CONCLUSION: Purifiers and Black Templars Assault Terminators both massacre Ork Boyz if they charge them. If they get charged, the Purifiers fare better, killing off all the Orks but being reduced to one model, whereas the Terminators kill around 4 Orks before being wiped. Seeing as the Purifiers are more expensive, however, it is not that strange that they are better. They're also geared towards killing hordes, whereas the Terminators are better at killing MEQ.
4 LC Terminators and 1 TH/SS charging a Trygon leads to the following:
LCs strike first: 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6.666... wounds, rounded to 7. Trygon is at -1 wound before being allowed to strike.
As for the DCAs, they're not going to beat any Terminators if they have to charge through cover, seeing as they have no grenades.
Blood Claw Dreadnoughts are S7 on the charge, Killa Kans are AV11. I'll leave the rest to you.
Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. If you run a templar squad that isn't optimized to fight hordes, you'll find that the Purifiers do alot better than the Templars. Which just reinforces Nugz' point.
The larger point here, though, is that the black templars are about as elite as space marine assault units get, and they do about the same as a unit of purifiers who cost roughly the same amount of points. The purifiers are scoring (the terminators aren't) they have good shooting vs. vehicles (the terminators can't shoot at all) and they have force weapons to kill independent characters and thunderwolves and stuff like that (the terminators don't.) The Purifiers aren't even close combat specialists, and they have a clear advantage over the terminators in all these situations. Even if we let you have a squad of terminators optimized for killing hordes, the terminators still only do about the same work. The assaultiest assault specialists of the assaultiest chapter of assault marines that the Imperium has. And they break even. You don't see a problem with this?
GreatGunz wrote:Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. I think what you'll find if you look at it that way is that the Orks do considerably better against the templars than against the Purifiers.
Furious Charge Lightning Claws with rerolls to hit are insanely powerful, as such you want to maximize the amount of claws you get. The TH/SS guy is there to give the unit some sort of defense against walkers and a dude who can soak PW wounds.
GreatGunz wrote:The larger point here, though, is that the black templars are about as elite as space marine assault units get, and they do about the same as a unit of purifiers who cost roughly the same amount of points. The purifiers are scoring (the terminators aren't) they can shoot (the terminators can't) and they have force weapons to kill thunderwolves and stuff like that (the terminators don't.) They're not even close combat specialists, and they have a clear advantage over the terminators. Presumably you don't see a problem with this, though.
Last time I looked, Purifiers aren't troops by default, although I guess it's a fair comparison, seeing as the Emperor's Champion with AAC costs almost the same as Crowe. Anyhow, the Purifiers are better against (non-EW) stuff with a high amount of wounds, whereas the Terminators are better against MEQ and other units with many 1- or 2-wound models with good armour saves.
Just saying though, against a Trygon Prime, the Terminators kill it dead before it gets to swing. Meanwhile, the Purifiers are likely not going to get their Force Weapons off, thanks to SitW. Against Space Wolves, there's a high probability that there's a Rune Priest, in which case the odds are against you again.
I'm not disputing that Purifiers are powerful in close combat, but they're not the most powerful CC unit out there. As has been said, they're a balance between excellent shooting and good CC prowess.
GreatGunz wrote:Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. I think what you'll find if you look at it that way is that the Orks do considerably better against the templars than against the Purifiers.
Furious Charge Lightning Claws with rerolls to hit are insanely powerful, as such you want to maximize the amount of claws you get. The TH/SS guy is there to give the unit some sort of defense against walkers and a dude who can soak PW wounds.
Then again, you may want to maximize the number of terminators who live through enemy shooting by taking the shields. Especially since preferred enemy works with the hammers too. I don't deny that the lightning claw guys are strong on the charge, but I don't think you can deny either that this is a squad that's optimized for killing hordes. I think the hammers are the standard tactic, so you've got to start there.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
GreatGunz wrote:The larger point here, though, is that the black templars are about as elite as space marine assault units get, and they do about the same as a unit of purifiers who cost roughly the same amount of points. The purifiers are scoring (the terminators aren't) they can shoot (the terminators can't) and they have force weapons to kill thunderwolves and stuff like that (the terminators don't.) They're not even close combat specialists, and they have a clear advantage over the terminators. Presumably you don't see a problem with this, though.
Last time I looked, Purifiers aren't troops by default, although I guess it's a fair comparison, seeing as the Emperor's Champion with AAC costs almost the same as Crowe. Anyhow, the Purifiers are better against (non-EW) stuff with a high amount of wounds, whereas the Terminators are better against MEQ and other units with many 1- or 2-wound models with good armour saves.
Just saying though, against a Trygon Prime, the Terminators kill it dead before it gets to swing. Meanwhile, the Purifiers are likely not going to get their Force Weapons off, thanks to SitW. Against Space Wolves, there's a high probability that there's a Rune Priest, in which case the odds are against you again.
I'm not disputing that Purifiers are powerful in close combat, but they're not the most powerful CC unit out there. As has been said, they're a balance between excellent shooting and good CC prowess.
I think you have to count them as troops, since that's pretty much how they get used. Anyway there's no shortage of assault units that can wipe an MEQ squad. But units that wipe MEQs and non-EW monsters and thunderwolves and hordes and kill transports and score - those units are rare indeed. It's not that purifiers are completely unstoppable in close combat - it's that they're about an 8 in close combat compared to other army's 10s, but they don't give anything up to get that 8. They still score, they still bust transports, they still kill monsters, etc. etc. It's aggravating for other players who are paying out the nose to get those same capabilities, but giving up the ability to do anything else to do it.Your illustration with the Templars is a perfect example of that. Look at the numbers you came up with - the templars do assaults and nothing else, and they did about the same as the purifiers who do all this other stuff too. It's just tarded.
GreatGunz wrote:Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. I think what you'll find if you look at it that way is that the Orks do considerably better against the templars than against the Purifiers.
Furious Charge Lightning Claws with rerolls to hit are insanely powerful, as such you want to maximize the amount of claws you get. The TH/SS guy is there to give the unit some sort of defense against walkers and a dude who can soak PW wounds.
Then again, you may want to maximize the number of terminators who live through enemy shooting by taking the shields. Especially since preferred enemy works with the hammers too. I don't deny that the lightning claw guys are strong on the charge, but I don't think you can deny either that this is a squad that's optimized for killing hordes. I think the hammers are the standard tactic, so you've got to start there.
Footslogging Assault Terminators are rubbish, no matter what army you run them in (and I don't count CML Deathwing Terminators as Assault Terminators, obviously). I guess I should've said that you'd have to count on a Land Raider of some sort being present along the Terminators, so in theory you'd get almost 2 squads of Purifiers for the one unit of Terminators and their LRC. The thing is, though, with the LRC the Terminators can probably walk through those two Purifier squads and still come out on top. With an AV14 transport, a lot of Storm Shields aren't needed.
The Purifiers are also infinitely more vulnerable to AP3, forcing them to hug cover or be blasted by Battlecannons and/or similar weapons. If you put the Purifiers in a Land Raider of their own you're paying for shooting weapons that aren't doing anything.
GreatGunz wrote:Why are you assuming that the templars are running 4 lightning claws and only 1 hammer? I think it usually goes the other way around. I think what you'll find if you look at it that way is that the Orks do considerably better against the templars than against the Purifiers.
Furious Charge Lightning Claws with rerolls to hit are insanely powerful, as such you want to maximize the amount of claws you get. The TH/SS guy is there to give the unit some sort of defense against walkers and a dude who can soak PW wounds.
Then again, you may want to maximize the number of terminators who live through enemy shooting by taking the shields. Especially since preferred enemy works with the hammers too. I don't deny that the lightning claw guys are strong on the charge, but I don't think you can deny either that this is a squad that's optimized for killing hordes. I think the hammers are the standard tactic, so you've got to start there.
Footslogging Assault Terminators are rubbish, no matter what army you run them in (and I don't count CML Deathwing Terminators as Assault Terminators, obviously). I guess I should've said that you'd have to count on a Land Raider of some sort being present along the Terminators, so in theory you'd get almost 2 squads of Purifiers for the one unit of Terminators and their LRC. The thing is, though, with the LRC the Terminators can probably walk through those two Purifier squads and still come out on top. With an AV14 transport, a lot of Storm Shields aren't needed.
The Purifiers are also infinitely more vulnerable to AP3, forcing them to hug cover or be blasted by Battlecannons and/or similar weapons. If you put the Purifiers in a Land Raider of their own you're paying for shooting weapons that aren't doing anything.
Yes, Purifiers are vulnerable to AP3, they have weaknesses, however this is a comparison of how units do in assault, and the I6, potentially S5/force weaponing Purifiers are very strong for their points cost while still being able to contribute in the other parts of the game. Thunder hammer terminators (Black Templar or otherwise) and Death Cult assassins are excellent assault units, but do nothing else (DCA can score with Coteaz).
Purifiers are close to being as good as the best Marine assault units, yet still have psycannons and psybolt enhanced storm bolters.
If I played Grey Knights (I do have Crowe) I'd never take anything else.
EDIT: For the best assault "army" I'd say that Grey Knights are pretty much up there. You can, if you want, field every slot filled with force weapon wielding maniacs. Given that Marines are the most common enemy, and pay so much for their 3+ save, the ability to ignore that particular roll of the dice gives you a fair advantage. Being able to become strength 5 means that you're basically as good as WS5 (4+ to hit, 3+ to wound versus 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound) so against the most common enemy in assault Grey Knights have the advantage. 3+ saves mean that they are quite resistant to most of the stuff thrown their way too.
Force weapons and things like the brotherhood banner means they have a counter to monstrous creatures as well.
A pure Khorne Daemon army would be the most "assaulty" assault army in my opinion though.
Everyone. And anyone. There are very few armies that can't do an assault build well if you have the cash for pewter/resin models (Guard and Tau, basically).
I wasn't referencing the Furious Charge, as that is a steal for 3 points. It was the overall cost of the unit in relation to what you get in the army itself. Now, you can make effective TH/SS units in certain builds...but LC/TH mix units almost always require transports (i.e. LRC), which puts them at 480 points minimum. That's a lot of points. Which forces you to sacrifice in other aspects of your list.
But yes, in a vacuum, they are very good. I certainly won't deny that. Unfortunately, we don't play in a vacuum and we have to take other factors into account.
I have not read all 4 pages. A lott of good has been sead from what I can read.
I would like to say that tyranids are a good CC army. However, tyranids CC can not winn vs gunline. But if you are running another good CC army (perhaps with the exeption of GK) tyranids will usualy be abel to munch them up. Like say blood angels.
If you want a good CC army I would sugest one that does have some ranged game as well.
th3maninblak wrote:Purifiers are the bane of orks. As for ASM, the common set up for purifiers is 5 dudes with 2 halberds, 1 hammer and 2 psycannons. Even with hammerhand theyll only kill 1-2 dudes at i6 before they get wiped.
I'm pretty sure that if you tailor a Purifier unit so that it's no good at CC it won't do very well
The question was "Best CC Army." Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
A vindicator w/ siege shield = 155. I kill your entire squad in one shot, and IF any survived, they are moped up by my assault squads.
While not being the best CC army, BA hits like a rock and is a blast to play. Plus. we have some of the better looking infantry models.
th3maninblak wrote:Purifiers are the bane of orks. As for ASM, the common set up for purifiers is 5 dudes with 2 halberds, 1 hammer and 2 psycannons. Even with hammerhand theyll only kill 1-2 dudes at i6 before they get wiped.
I'm pretty sure that if you tailor a Purifier unit so that it's no good at CC it won't do very well
The question was "Best CC Army." Make a Purifier CC unit. It's easy. 10 Halberds. Tada. Find me a unit in the BA codex that can beat that please. At ~260 pts.
As to this, a 5 man Sanguinary Guard squad with 5 axes and a Priest w/jump pack would be 275 and against purifiers would inflict about 8 wounds which would get no saves. This isn't including the possibility of HOW attack either. Where as the purifiers charging this squad would only kill about .84 SG after Save and FNP
For exact point value you could do 6 SG W/ 2 fist for 260 this squad would kill about 7.6 Purifiers; once again no HOW
Another option, due to the new rage rule, would be DC. 10 DC w/4 axes is 260 points. On charge they are devastating. Grey knights I6 attacks would kill 3.35 DC and the DC would kill 13.1 Purifiers.
Of course this is all statistical, but none the less interesting.
Right now I'm really fond of a 9 strong unit of screamers. Point for point they are one of the meanest CC units in the game, and they synergize well with other fast units.
I'm thinking of adding some of the cheap slaneesh chariots to the same list after the new CSM book drops. Once they can DS safely the unit should be very deadly for it's low point cost, and whatever it can't handle with it's hammer of wrath hits is probably best handled with screamers.
6 heavy flammers 
nuff said. 
