How do CSM "win"? Do the various factions have enough in common with one another so that one can say there is even a unified goal? If Abaddon took all of Cadia, what would happen next? If he made it to Terra and switched off the Golden Throne, what then?

For the purposes of "winning" 40k are CSM really a coherent faction or are they just a subset (and, when you think about it, a nearly insignificant subset) of Chaos Daemons? Put it another way, if CSM were the only manifestation of Chaos in realspace (that is, no daemonic incursions), how would you rate Chaos as a threat?

Breach the Cadian gate, Land on Terra And defile the Emperors corpse (that means no warp travel for the IOM). Then they would probably hunt down any last imperial forces, take revenge on loyal marine chapters and just turn on each other if there's nothing more evil to do.

Chaos is a threat to The human race as long as the IOM exists. The end part of Legion(HH novel) explains that and the entire INQ is to prevent that.

If the only goal of CSM is destruction of the IoM then destroying the IoM also means destroying the CSM as they will no longer have any purpose. A bit lame even by Tzeentchian paradoxical standards.

Going back to M31, Horus wanted to overthrow the Emperor so that _________.

Fill in the blank. Is that what CSM (or some or many or most CSM) still want?

So that he could rule the universe and make everyone do what he said.

Chaos Marines can't really have a unified endgame. Every Champion wants to be the #1 guy, and Abaddon keeps them something like "in line" through a combination of bribery and fear.

If the Black Crusade succeeded, Terra fell, and the Emperor was torn from the Golden Throne, the Chaos Legions would probably splinter more than ever (lacking a unified goal). The various warbands would go off doing their thing, spreading destruction and death as they went. They're quite as happy to fight each other for power as they are to fight the Imperium, so the Chaos Legions would probably disintegrate into hundreds or thousands of mini-empires, with populations split between killing themselves in the name of the dark gods and going to war against a rival warband's empire.

Manchu wrote:How do CSM "win"? Do the various factions have enough in common with one another so that one can say there is even a unified goal? If Abaddon took all of Cadia, what would happen next? If he made it to Terra and switched off the Golden Throne, what then?

For the purposes of "winning" 40k are CSM really a coherent faction or are they just a subset (and, when you think about it, a nearly insignificant subset) of Chaos Daemons? Put it another way, if CSM were the only manifestation of Chaos in realspace (that is, no daemonic incursions), how would you rate Chaos as a threat?

Those who threw themselves into ruin, are CSM.
They chose the unwinnable, the bitter and length path to their own demise.

The "victory" which is a possible goal of some of them, isn't more than a illusion.
Chaos is about personal gain, about disorder. So any "win" wouldn't last. They don't have a common goal except maybe the few who remember the time when they had to flee like little girls and think they deserve to have their vengeance.
Therefore hordes of chaos followers would aim for their own gains, and just a very small minority would care for this "unified goal".

Abaddon for example wants to beat the loyalists wherever he can, just to outperform Horus. Missing the fact his Primarch had the influence to mislead his opponents because they didn't know he turned and trusted him, something he never will be able to.
His plan may be to come to Terra, try to open the damaged webway gate and see it ruined...
Thus pure hatred without any hint on a longtime plan. Not sure if he even cared to survive it.

CSM in general are rare.
Taking the Demons out would just reduce the power of the cults. Less chaos influenced rebellions then.
CSM would end in a position like Dark Eldar.


In KNF, Gulliman considers the future of the astartes beyond the great crusade. He sees a path for them and argues his father wouldn't put so much effort into their creation just to throw them away like a tool after the fighting is over. Horus and other soon to be traitors, assumed they are just tools and would be discarded. If the bitter hatred is all that is left inside, those who decided to become tools to be used to avoid being tools, will find out there is nothing to fill their emptyness if victory would be possible.
Thus the 'endgame' is no endgame as the CSM get discarded exactly like they assumed, but not by the Emperor but their unholy masters.

Horus wanted to rule Mankind and to bring it into a new golden age (which would not have occurred, but his attentions, at first at least, were noble). He thought he would be a better, and more justified, ruler than the Emperor. I'm sure plenty of Chaos Marines want to rule. Their motives are likely mostly diluted by now though - rather than trying to improve Mankind's future, they'll likely be content to sit on the throne and simply empower themselves.

Blood for the Blood God, skulls for the Skull Throne.

Simples

The chaos gods genreally weren't too concerned with the material universe before the Emperor started medling with their immaterium. If the CSM defeat the IOM then Abbadon will likely want to rule the galaxy and by overthrowing the emperor the choas gods will be left happy enough to let hikm get on with it. The problem is that I doubt the CSM would unite behind Abaddon as ruler.

From what I remember from the HH books, chaos basically wants the universe to be ruled by the strong dominating the weak, doing with them as they please.

\i'm not even sure the chaos gods exist outside of the milky way. Considering Slanesh was born out of activity by the eldar which occurred in the milky way. Perhaps in other parts of the universe the gods are completely different and are a reflection of whatever life exists there.

SilverMK2 wrote:... chaos basically wants the universe to be ruled by the strong dominating the weak, doing with them as they please.

I'll assume you're talking specifically about CSM and not Chaos generally. As for the strong dominating the weak, that is pretty much how the galaxy works already (assuming one agrees that the IoM rules the galaxy) with the IoM being the strongest relative to all the other races (who are interested in ruling the galaxy) combined. If the IoM was not the strongest, why would it rule the galaxy? Presumably, if the CSM want the strongest to rule then they should be happy that the IoM is in charge. This means everything the CSM do is to make sure the IoM is still the strongest ... which seems incorrect. The CSM actually seem interested in destroying the IoM.

But to what purpose? To replace it? To destroy it? If either, why? Do the xenos races matter to the CSM as anything more than pawns/obstacles in their war against the IoM?

I'm not seeing obvious answers here. When I start thinking about this, CSM really seem like scattered bands of thugs with petty goals rather than a grand faction. In other words, they may be a threat to a specific world or even a sector but they're kind of pathetic at the segementum level, much less the galactic level.

As far as I can tell, losing the HH basically made the CSM irrelevant at the larger scales. Maybe the same can even be said of loyalist Space Marines.

Once they destroy the Imperium, then everything goes to Hell. Abaddon would probably end up like one of the Daemon Primarchs, retiring on some Chaos corrupted hell hole. There would be horrible infighting and everyone would compete for resources and followers.

Here are what I think might be some other factions' endgames:

IoM: subjugate everything to humanity forever
Tyranids: absorb all other life into tyranid biomass
Tau Empire: incorporate all sentient beings into the Greater Good
Eldar: I'm not totally sure -- maybe to a rebuild new, sustainable empire?
Necrons: formerly, to end all life; not sure what it is now
Dark Eldar: forever escape the clutches of Slaanesh
Chaos Gods: I wouldn't presume to know

Orks don't fit this mold well. They don't conquer for the sake of conquering. Ork victory pretty much means doing whatever they want (usually fighting), which is the constant state of Ork life from the individual on up to the species level.

Word Bearers have the goal of establishing the worship of Chaos as the only religion on every planet.

1k Sons are primarily interested in gaining knowledge and therefore power. Some of them could, theoretically, be interested in using that power towards ends that would support the IOM. That would all end in tears of course.

Death Guard just want everything to rot, Emperor's Children are all about the sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and World Eaters dig the skulls.

They don't have one. They were manipulated into betrayal so that Chaos could win. Chaos won. Traitor Marines didn't have an endgame, they were just pawns.

Now, they're held back by leaders which are unmotivated, insane, or incompetent. Those leaders are also ridiculously physically powerful and CSMs are a "might makes right" culture, keeping them firmly stagnant in their own mess.

So they're really in it just for For the Evuls.

For alot of chaos space marines winning means becoming a demon prince and thus gaining immortality and power beyond their wildest dreams. For all that they talk about attacking terra and so on, it's never going to happen. They're too disorganized.

CSM arn't looking for anything logical like power. They just want to watch the galaxy burn.

The goals are disparate. Chaos isn't unified in vision like the Imperium, and the goals vary with the individual. Chaos is, at it's core, about individuality, and satisfying individual desires. For some Legions (Black Legion, Night Lords) the goal could simply be revenge for the events of the Heresy by killing the Emperor. For others, it could be causing carnage (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard). For others, domination for its own sake could be the goal (Iron Warriors), and for still others it could be the glorification of the gods (Word Bearers). Even within each of these, the leader will be shaped by his past and his alignment to one or all of the gods.

In short, there is no clear endgame, and that's why Chaos is what it is. It's a collection of individuals with differing and often conflicting goals. That's one of the reasons they're my favorite faction.

It seems they can hardly be called a faction. There is just mostly similar equipment between the many factions.

Manchu wrote:It seems they can hardly be called a faction. There is just mostly similar equipment between the many factions.

They have a shared history, and were the same race before many mutated/changed. Orks and Eldar are not the same faction, as nothing ties them together. Chaos is a faction, just dysfunctional and volatile. Plus, we know they're a faction because they have their own tab on GW's website.

Generally speaking, all Orks and all Craftworld Eldar have the same culture and goals. This cannot be said for CSM, it would seem.

My Ork and Eldar example was the two races in relation to each other. Eldar are a faction, Orks are a faction. Eldar and Orks are not the same faction because of their huge cultural differences and inability to work together.
Chaos may not be coherent and unified like the Imperium, but they share the base characteristic of being space marines corrupted by the gods, pursuing their own agendas, and occasionally rallying to get things done on a large scale.

Er, no one would ever argue that Orks and Eldar are the same faction ... Also, it's hardly meaningful that all CSm are perusing their own agendas. You're saying that they're alike in the fact that they're all different? Hmm ... Aside from the tabletop, CSM seem more likely to ally with cultists or daemons than other CSM chapters/warbands.

Ok guys since this seems to be eluding you all I will let you in on a little secret as to the nature of 'chaos'.

As we all know warp deities are the physical and sometimes sentient manifestation of the materium's events/emotions/beliefs. These beings/gods/books wax and wane with the ebb and flow of the milky way (constantly changing, even dying). Though obviously able to influence events to various degrees, denizens of the warp are in no way free. The end game for chaotic powers is to completely erode the fabric of real-space. Think of the raw power of the entire galaxy rent apart and devoured by the warp so wholely that warp entities become their own masters funneling the death scream and souls of the materium to shape realty in their own twisted visages.

tl;dr-
milky way galaxy=egg
exterior of egg= real space
yolk and white= immaterium and warp beings
Maelstrom and Eye of Terror= holes in shell

-----shell forms the shape of yolk & white, and contains it; yolk can splash out and dirty the shell; chaos wants to scramble the b-tch.... (or hatch)

First, some basic chaosology: the Materium does not contain the Immaterium, at least not in the sense of shaping or controlling it. Events/emotions in realspace determine how the warp interacts with realspace. If all sentient beings in realspace stopped experiencing emotion, the warp would not cease to churn -- it would simply interdict the penetration into realspace of the warp (maybe). For example, the Eldar did not cause Slaanesh to come into being (Slaanesh has always been) but rather caused the existence of Slaanesh to burst into the Materium, creating the wound in realspace called the Eye of Terror. The death of the Eldar empire and the calm of Craftworld Eldar on their paths did not reverse the influence of Slaanesh on realspace or even shrink the Eye of Terror.

Second, and more importantly, this is a thread about creatures of the Materium, Chaos Space Marines, rather than warp entities such as Chaos gods or daemons. CSM do not have the same motivations as those beings. In fact, CSM have always been devoted to using the power of the warp for their own ends even as the denizens of the Immaterium used them -- e.g., Magnus.

I'd imagine that without a IOM to rage on they'd just fragment, kill each other off and be very discworldesque, wizards with towers building them taller and taller until there's only one wizard left, but by that time they'd also ethnically cleanse the rest of the milky way galaxy (eldar, dark eldar, orks, yadda yadda) so that the only thing they'd have left to fear would be necrons and nids, after which point, they'd be that fragmented that they'd fall to the nids, so then the nids cleanse the crap outta whats left, then head on to another galaxy, the necrons would go back to sleep in their tomb worlds and we'd have.......I don't know...ran outta steam there.

A lot of the answers give me the impression that the CSM are only relevant as long as the IoM is still in power.

Manchu wrote:A lot of the answers give me the impression that the CSM are only relevant as long as the IoM is still in power.

And in fact it is. They are so few in galactic terms that they are not the biggest threat to the Imperium. They are shadows of a distant and glorious past that happen to remind you they still exist from time to time. This is at least in current fluff in which they are depicted as a bunch of warbands and not as full, organizes legions.

The CSM are, to my mind, like the Joker. Without the Batman, what can the Joker say he is, when for so long he has been this man's arch-nemesis? The Chaos Space Marines have spent ten thousand years in a hunt for vengeance, too long to do anything other than turn on each other. Sure, if Abaddon plays it right, he could set himself up as the new Emperor like Horus planned to, but it wouldn't last. The power of the gods would be enough to see the new Imperium collapse within years at the most, even without the outside threats.

CSM were originally about being loyal to themselves and doing what they want - horus was able to persuade them that doing what he wanted them to do ie removing the emperor was the best outcome for them

Then he got slapped hard by his daddy and is down for the count

Non of the other traitor primarchs were of the same calibre or could persuade his brothers towards the same final goal - so as brothers do and as individuals do infighting starts and it all goes to poo

The CSM themselves are in reality just getting what they can, while they can and trying to do whatever makes them personally happy. The chaos powers would like to see them unified to get rid of the emperor and beyond that dont really care what happens to them - The gods would probably be happy to see the CSM dominate the galaxy and turn all humans to chaos and chaos loves eating human souls/essences

What the marines wants .... well that varies as previously mentioned

With the arrival of the nids wanted to eat everything and the necrons wanting to kill everything in the galaxty and being disconnected from the warp - I would say that chaos is screwed in terms of their endgame. Considering that the emperor is what is attracting the tyranids then its probably better for us if he had died - then no nids. But CSM feeding humans to the gods doesnt sound good to me either. But then the necrons would of woken up anyway, wiped humanity out and CSM with it and the gods would of been pwnd too - that was alpharius and omegus original plan wasnt it ?

So they might as well enjoy what they got left while they can ie do wahtever they heck makes them happy weather tahts going after the emperor, taking drugs, taking skulls, spreading pestilence etc etc

One way or another humans are all gonna die and maybe some CSM are gonna run away to the immaterium and enjoy their daemon worlds

There is really no endgame for them, they fight among themselves a lot more then other forces.

Most of them are really not that much interested in taking down the Imeprium and all as much as they interested in fighting or simple pleasing their gods.

I don't think they thought that far ahead..

Ive now read 16 HH books, the more I get through, the more I struggle to understand their motivations..

And the less appeal chaos hold for me, the loyalists are flawed, but noble and stoic and selfless at times, the chaos lot have just been deceived and fell for it hook line and sinker. The Chaos gods being the most base emotions of humanity given life, they even take pleasure in the suffering and misery of their followers.. what possible reason is there to want to follow it?!

mattyrm wrote: I don't think they thought that far ahead..

Ive now read 16 HH books, the more I get through, the more I struggle to understand their motivations..

And the less appeal chaos hold for me, the loyalists are flawed, but noble and stoic and selfless at times, the chaos lot have just been deceived and fell for it hook line and sinker. The Chaos gods being the most base emotions of humanity given life, they even take pleasure in the suffering and misery of their followers.. what possible reason is there to want to follow it?!

Yes. As their name implies, they are all about chaos. It's essentially rebellion for rebellion's sake. Some of the higher-ups dream of conquering da universe but it's never going to happen. Even if they all got together on the same program, which they never would, there aren't enough of them to get the job done. Like in the late Roman Empire, they're just one of many "barbarian hordes" that the Imperium has to deal with. The Imperium is stronger than any one enemy it faces, but the combined effect is too much for them.

Of course Chaos are a "unified" faction.

The original animosity rules were there to show that, as a faction, Chaos was less disciplined than the imperial factions. But the point of it was still to play them as one faction, explicitly combining units from different gods and sub-factions to showcase and use the "animosity" rules and underline their "difference" to loyalist Marines. Otherwise, what's the point.

This whole obsession of "mono-god" armies, born in no small part from WAAC-players wanting to give themselves an edge by avoiding the old animosity rules have largely perverted the view on Chaos and CSM.

What makes Chaos and Chaos Marines distinct from Loyalists is the very fact that they are mixed (and potentially harbour animostiy towards each other, which may break out mid-battle).

If Chaos Marines are just another uniform Marines Force, painted red-and-gold instead of blue-and-gold, shouting "For the Blood God" instead of "For the Emperor", one might as well just send them the way of the Squats as they no longer add anything distinctive to the game.

Zweischneid wrote:Of course Chaos are a "unified" faction.

No. Unity impleis order. They are not order marines. They are chaos marines. Which implies disunity.

Zweischneid wrote:The original animosity rules were there to show that, as a faction, Chaos was less disciplined than the imperial factions. But the point of it was still to play them as one faction, explicitly combining units from different gods and factions to showcase and use the "animosity" rules. Otherwise, what's the point.

No the original animosity rules reflected that they hate each other's guts too much to even look at each other without blowing a gasket. The only legion that can harmonize these mutual antagonisms long term is the black legion, because they don't really worship chaos at all. They worship themselves, and instead of allowing themselves to be used by chaos, they use it.

Zweischneid wrote:This whole obsession of "mono-god" armies, born in no small part from WAAC-players wanting to give themselves an edge by avoiding the old animosity rules have largely perverted the few of Chaos.

Extra heresy. WAAC players mix and match their cultists because they just want what works. Which is why you see so many CSM armies with two slaanesh demon princes leading a bunch of berserkers and plague marines around.

Zweischneid wrote:What makes Chaos and Chaos Marines distinct from Loyalists is the very fact that they are mixed (and potentially harbour animostiy towards each other, which may break out mid-battle).

No what makes them distinct form loyalists is that they are mighty, whereas loyalists are pitiful.

Zweischneid wrote:If Chaos Marines are just another uniform Marines Force, painted red-and-gold instead of blue-and-gold, shouting "For the Blood God" instead of "For the Emperor", one might as well just send them the way of the Squats as they no longer add anything distinctive to the game.

Fortunately that will never happen.

The closest chaos get to an 'end game' is daemonic immortality and seeing the Imperium burn. after the imperium falls, the galaxy will become, put simply, Chaos. Disorder and slaughter will be the rule. and petty warlords will persue their own goals.

What was the emperor doing in the warp that pissed off the gods so much anyway ?

I personally dont think he was doing anything, these guys just found more humans to manipulate and makethemelves stonger by feeding on their emotions and increase the number of humans worshipping them

In book two of the horus heresy it seems that the emperor knew all along that horus would stab him in the back - why let it happen ?

Why did the emperor let chaos scatter his kids ? Why let chaos ruin your empire and almost kill you if you saw it coming 200 years before hand ?

Is he slow or something ?

sumi808 wrote:What was the emperor doing in the warp that pissed off the gods so much anyway ?

I personally dont think he was doing anything, these guys just found more humans to manipulate and makethemelves stonger by feeding on their emotions and increase the number of humans worshipping them

In book two of the horus heresy it seems that the emperor knew all along that horus would stab him in the back - why let it happen ?

Why did the emperor let chaos scatter his kids ? Why let chaos ruin your empire and almost kill you if you saw it coming 200 years before hand ?

Is he slow or something ?

The Emperor is trying to build humanity up, while the chaos gods represent mankind's destructive and negative urges. So there's the whole light v darkness, good v. evil thing. I like how in 40k there's no attempt to rationalize evil. Like in magic, where black isn't "evil" (yeah right) it's just "selfish" or "amoral." In 40k, evil is real, and it has to be confronted. It could show up in your living room and kill everyone. Hence the inquisition and all that. Anyway, the only specific activity I'm aware of that was a direct attack on the chaos gods was the spread of the doctrine of imperial truth. If people believed in rationality and science and dismissed tales of magic as superstition, then no one would believe in the gods anymore or feed them with psychic energy. Since the chaos gods thrive on belief, they would lose some of their power if the emperor succeeded in convincing everyone. That strategy, needless to say, was not entirely successful.

Remember too the emperor isn't perfect or all-powerful. He's very powerful and very wise but he makes mistakes. He didn't know that horus was going to betray him. He trusted him to take care of business while he repaired the eldar webway, so that people wouldn't have to travel through the warp anymore. He screwed up, simple as that. There's no sure thing in the 40k universe. Only an eternity of war.

GreatGunz wrote:[
The Emperor is trying to build humanity up, while the chaos gods represent mankind's destructive and negative urges. So there's the whole light v darkness, good v. evil thing. I like how in 40k there's no attempt to rationalize evil. Like in magic, where black isn't "evil" (yeah right)

You got somethin against blacks? D<

sumi808 wrote:What was the emperor doing in the warp that pissed off the gods so much anyway ?

He was going to kill them by moving humanity to such a state that they'd no longer be receiving power.

sumi808 wrote:
In book two of the horus heresy it seems that the emperor knew all along that horus would stab him in the back - why let it happen ?

You're just incorrect here. He had no idea it was going to happen.

sumi808 wrote:
Why did the emperor let chaos scatter his kids ?

Once again, he couldn't do anything to stop it. The Emperor couldn't see the future in any way either.

BlaxicanX wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:[
The Emperor is trying to build humanity up, while the chaos gods represent mankind's destructive and negative urges. So there's the whole light v darkness, good v. evil thing. I like how in 40k there's no attempt to rationalize evil. Like in magic, where black isn't "evil" (yeah right)

You got somethin against blacks? D<

no, but arguably wizards of the coast does

mattyrm wrote: I don't think they thought that far ahead..

Ive now read 16 HH books, the more I get through, the more I struggle to understand their motivations..

And the less appeal chaos hold for me, the loyalists are flawed, but noble and stoic and selfless at times, the chaos lot have just been deceived and fell for it hook line and sinker. The Chaos gods being the most base emotions of humanity given life, they even take pleasure in the suffering and misery of their followers.. what possible reason is there to want to follow it?!

Pretty much!

It may be the infamous "baby stapled to forehead" problem, but I have to agree - NO ONE would willingly join up for the craptastic sandwich of gak that Chaos Followers routinely receive as their 'reward'.

DarknessEternal wrote:
You're just incorrect here. He had no idea it was going to happen.

Here's where you're incorrect!

Later HH books have shown that the Emperor did in fact see what was coming - maybe!

Chaos wants to be worshipped or at least praised.

Mortals are simply tools of the gods.

The Traitor legions all have their own goals or lack of. It isn't really about the big picture, it's about all the small conflicts and personal quests for power.

Manchu wrote:If the only goal of CSM is destruction of the IoM then destroying the IoM also means destroying the CSM as they will no longer have any purpose. A bit lame even by Tzeentchian paradoxical standards.

Going back to M35, Horus wanted to overthrow the Emperor so that _________.

Fill in the blank. Is that what CSM (or some or many or most CSM) still want?

The destruction of the IoM is their most pressing goal. Their main goal is to go around doing....Chaosy stuff.

Manchu wrote:Here are what I think might be some other factions' endgames:

IoM: subjugate everything to humanity forever
Tyranids: absorb all other life into tyranid biomass
Tau Empire: incorporate all sentient beings into the Greater Good
Eldar: I'm not totally sure -- maybe to a rebuild new, sustainable empire?
Necrons: formerly, to end all life; not sure what it is now
Dark Eldar: forever escape the clutches of Slaanesh
Chaos Gods: I wouldn't presume to know

Orks don't fit this mold well. They don't conquer for the sake of conquering. Ork victory pretty much means doing whatever they want (usually fighting), which is the constant state of Ork life from the individual on up to the species level.

Technically Orks have already won as this is their ideal life style at the moment. It is true orks cannot lose. Dying in battle is a good thing. Running away isn't loosing since you get to come back with more orks. And you are essentially just assaulting in the opposite direction anyway. Orks are already at their endgame! It's actually quite zen like in its simplicity

sumi808 wrote:What was the emperor doing in the warp that pissed off the gods so much anyway ?

There are several possible answers:
1: According to a daemon (so it is definitely true) the Emperor made a deal with the gods to make a primarch, then tried to break that deal once he had what he wanted.
2: The Imperial Truth was an attempt to starve the gods.
3: They may have feared him if the Star Child theory is correct. Killing him seemed like a good way to stop him becoming a god.
4: The Imperium as it was was too structured. Even without the Imperial truth there wasn't enough selfishness for the gods.
5: Giving the humans access to the Webway would mean that the gods had one less way to mess with humanity.

I personally dont think he was doing anything, these guys just found more humans to manipulate and make themselves stronger by feeding on their emotions and increase the number of humans worshipping them.

Which is what the Emperor was trying to prevent.

In book two of the horus heresy it seems that the emperor knew all along that horus would stab him in the back - why let it happen ?

Why did the emperor let chaos scatter his kids ? Why let chaos ruin your empire and almost kill you if you saw it coming 200 years before hand ?

Is he slow or something ?

The Emperor couldn't predict the future, or if he could, not very well. He didn't know that stuff would happen.

CSM has several endgames. It depends a lot on whom you are talking to. Iron Warriors and Warsmith Honsou in particular seem to have a pseudo-noble method to their madness: they believe that only a new order harnessing the powers of Chaos can stand against Necrons, Orks, Nids and everything else.

Word Bearers are, in a way, the architects of the current IoM. Their endgame would likely be similar, just with a different emphasis: whole worlds dedicated to the chaos Pantheon, with themselves as the chief heralds and inquisitors.

Night Lords are pretty much about vengeance against the IOM. Without their main enemy, they`d likely become warlords `harvesting` fear from their domains.

Taken as a whole, the CSM victory would be a balkanized galaxy. Some areas might even be better off, ruled my independent-minded warlords who despise the Imperium`s bureucratic totalitarianism. Some would be so hellish as to mirror daemon worlds. Others would be launching crusades against xenos and each other.

Win? Chaos isn't trying to win, chaos just is. Sure, right now chaos is focusing on the IoM, but that's just for the moment.

I think the Emperor could not make the Primarchs on his own. he need more that his amazing psyker abilities. In my estimation, the primarchs were created by both science and magic -- i.e., chaos sorcery. Either the Emperor approached the four through their minions or caught their attention by becoming a very powerful and very resilient sorcerer in his own right. So the creation of the Primarchs was something of a bet. In making them, the Emperor knew that the Ruinous Powers would interfere one way or another. He took the chance and the scattering of the Primarchs was his first loss. The eradication of two legions and their Primarchs was he second loss. The Horus Heresy was his third loss. The real question is what did he stand to gain? The Great Crusade itself seems to be a step in some direction -- but what direction, specifically? Sumi808 above asks the right question: how did the Emperor manage to get the Chaos gods so upset that they actually put aside their eternal animosities to foil him? And Eternal Darkness, also above, answers that the Emperor meant to kill them -- and I would add, at least break their hold over humanity -- somehow via the architecture of the Imperium.

In this case, the answer to my original question could be "the CSM 'win' by finally thwarting the Emperor," which (like every other answer presented so far) actually seems to marginalize them as a faction. After all, this goal is only theirs by virtue of having been handed down to them by their masters, the Four. And as, mattyrm, how do they benefit? The slim chance of daemonic ascension? Well, the example of the traitor Primarchs seems to indicate that even this is just a form of slavery. That's fine for a bloodthirster or the lords of change, who have no choice in the matter. But it doesn't make a lot of sense for the endlessly rebellious CSM, at least outside of the Word Bearer ranks. So, what then? Vengeance? Well, that just begs the question.

if their goal is to finish off the emperor then wouldnt that just turn him into the star child, thus killing the chaos gods?

.....so by that logic abaddon has resisted being a pawn to the chaos gods so he can kill off the emperor who will kill the chaos gods and every one can be happy again : D

or this:

1: do chaosy things
2: kill the emperor for good
3: .......
4: profit

The star child stuff hasn't been canon for a while now.

.......oh :/

well then my second theory applies

Alpharius wrote:
Here's where you're incorrect!

Later HH books have shown that the Emperor did in fact see what was coming - maybe!

Source? Also, facts can't be maybes.

Manchu wrote:I think the Emperor could not make the Primarchs on his own. he need more that his amazing psyker abilities. In my estimation, the primarchs were created by both science and magic -- i.e., chaos sorcery. Either the Emperor approached the four through their minions or caught their attention by becoming a very powerful and very resilient sorcerer in his own right. So the creation of the Primarchs was something of a bet. In making them, the Emperor knew that the Ruinous Powers would interfere one way or another. He took the chance and the scattering of the Primarchs was his first loss. The eradication of two legions and their Primarchs was he second loss. The Horus Heresy was his third loss. The real question is what did he stand to gain? The Great Crusade itself seems to be a step in some direction -- but what direction, specifically? Sumi808 above asks the right question: how did the Emperor manage to get the Chaos gods so upset that they actually put aside their eternal animosities to foil him? And Eternal Darkness, also above, answers that the Emperor meant to kill them -- and I would add, at least break their hold over humanity -- somehow via the architecture of the Imperium.

Well, the Chaos 'dex states that the research from the primarch project was used to improve the army he used to conquer Terra from techno-barbarians to Space Marines. The ultimate aim was to unite humanity as the dominant race in the galaxy. The mystery in my opinion is whether human dominance or the destruction of the gods was his ultimate aim. Did he plan to ascend humanity simply to deny the gods their major food source, or were the gods just a roadblock on the way to that goal?

That strikes me as a tautological unity rather than a binary. On the one hand, the neutralization of the Ruinous Powers is necessary for human dominance. On the other hand, the neutralization of the Ruinous Powers would signify human dominance. (If you have the means to beat the Four, some measly orks or tyranids will hardly be problematic.) Therefore, as I see it, it's clear that monodominance is authentically orthodox. This is the fundamental sacred principle of the Imperium: that mankind should rule supreme over the galaxy. I suppose true blasphemy is not merely rejecting that principle outright but rather twisting and perverting it. If the Emperor saw monodominance as a racial goal, detached from his own personality, did Horus see it as a personal one? But that reduces Horus significantly and, by extension, all CSM along with him: "CSM are severely egomaniacal." Okay, fine -- but what else? I mean, Goge Vandire was a severe egomaniac but he doesn't seem to have been corrupted by Chaos.

Durza wrote:

Manchu wrote:I think the Emperor could not make the Primarchs on his own. he need more that his amazing psyker abilities. In my estimation, the primarchs were created by both science and magic -- i.e., chaos sorcery. Either the Emperor approached the four through their minions or caught their attention by becoming a very powerful and very resilient sorcerer in his own right. So the creation of the Primarchs was something of a bet. In making them, the Emperor knew that the Ruinous Powers would interfere one way or another. He took the chance and the scattering of the Primarchs was his first loss. The eradication of two legions and their Primarchs was he second loss. The Horus Heresy was his third loss. The real question is what did he stand to gain? The Great Crusade itself seems to be a step in some direction -- but what direction, specifically? Sumi808 above asks the right question: how did the Emperor manage to get the Chaos gods so upset that they actually put aside their eternal animosities to foil him? And Eternal Darkness, also above, answers that the Emperor meant to kill them -- and I would add, at least break their hold over humanity -- somehow via the architecture of the Imperium.

Well, the Chaos 'dex states that the research from the primarch project was used to improve the army he used to conquer Terra from techno-barbarians to Space Marines. The ultimate aim was to unite humanity as the dominant race in the galaxy. The mystery in my opinion is whether human dominance or the destruction of the gods was his ultimate aim. Did he plan to ascend humanity simply to deny the gods their major food source, or were the gods just a roadblock on the way to that goal?

The ultimate goal was for mankind to conquer da universe. While humanity faces many enemies from without, ultimately it is the enemy within that is the most dangerous. So the chaos gods were the primary obstacle. The Emperor is only interested in ensuring the survival and ascendancy of mankind. Since every alien species is potentially an evolutionary competitor, if he had his way they would all be exterminated. Tough universe.

Yeah, that's puritan monodominance -- a.k.a., imperial orthodoxy as I mentioned. My further point is that human extinction is not the goal of CSM so it's not like they're just diametrically opposed to the Emperor. The CSM version of monodominance is not that humanity rules all but that I (Horus, et al.) rule supreme. I just think that's kind of lame goal. The Emperor is an interesting figure not because he's the super powerful ruler of mankind but because of what he uses his power and rulership to achieve. What goal would Horus have, by contrast? He just wants to be in charge.

As this thread progresses, I'm more convinced than ever that the current CSM fluff is pretty stupid and needs a lot more thought put into it. As they are, they're kind of just cardboard villains.

The CSM and other Chaos forces are just a reflection of what happens if the Imperium collapses.

I'm not sure that defining the CSM as having a single goal is really a good thing. Horus wanted to rule because he was convinced that he would do a better job than the Emperor. It wasn't really Horus' goal anyway it was those Word Bearer chaps, Kor Phaeron and the other one that i'm currently failing to remember. Their goal was to have Chaos Worship as the Imperial Faith, Horus was an excellent opportunity to have that plan come to fruition.

So really, it's the Word Bearers that should be the dominant legion.

Horus doesn't really represent the CSM any more. Abaddon even less so, he manages to get a crusade together but it quickly disbands after they have been pushed back enough. Abaddon is full of hate and just wants the Imperium to burn. The dedicated Legions and the Word Bearers have a goal, even if it's just serving their gods.

I'd actually love to see Lorgar come out of his Meditation and lead a 'Devine Crusade' of united chaos forces.

I think you're right that the Word Bearers are the "true" heirs of the heresy rather than Abaddon and the Black Legion and that the actions of Erebus, rather than Horus, seem to have been the pivotal ones. It would be interesting if the Word Bearers emerged as the Ultramarines of the new CSM codex and Black Legion was relegated to a "backseat" position. I'd personally love to see that. Even before this conversation, the Black Legion always struck me as extremely boring.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, that's puritan monodominance -- a.k.a., imperial orthodoxy as I mentioned. My further point is that human extinction is not the goal of CSM so it's not like they're just diametrically opposed to the Emperor. The CSM version of monodominance is not that humanity rules all but that I (Horus, et al.) rule supreme. I just think that's kind of lame goal. The Emperor is an interesting figure not because he's the super powerful ruler of mankind but because of what he uses his power and rulership to achieve. What goal would Horus have, by contrast? He just wants to be in charge.

As this thread progresses, I'm more convinced than ever that the current CSM fluff is pretty stupid and needs a lot more thought put into it. As they are, they're kind of just cardboard villains.

Yes they're just interested in getting control. There's no real program beyond that. In a way I like that motivation because, though it's monomaniacal and ultimately self defeating, it's also very human. In general humans are often flawed and can't help but act on their worst impulses, even when they know, or should know, that it will lead to disaster. The original legionaires had a choice between a lesser set of loyalties (primarch and legion) and a larger set (the emperor and mankind), and they chose badly. Their story is a tragedy, and the survivors from that period are all basically tragic figures, at least to me. I do wish they would play up that angle of their story instead of using them for cartoon villains all the time. Especially because they have all this backstory in the 41st milllenium that alot of their loyalist opponents dont have. The loyalists do whats right becasue that's what they're trained to do. They don't really have to think about it. In fact, since thought leads to heresy, they're encouraged not to think about it. The traitors have travelled a road with alot more winds and curves in it, so I think there's alot of untapped dramatic potential there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:I think you're right that the Word Bearers are the "true" heirs of the heresy rather than Abaddon and the Black Legion and that the actions of Erebus, rather than Horus, seem to have been the pivotal ones. It would be interesting if the Word Bearers emerged as the Ultramarines of the new CSM codex and Black Legion was relegated to a "backseat" position. I'd personally love to see that. Even before this conversation, the Black Legion always struck me as extremely boring.

well alot of people say the same thing about the ultramarines, who have always seemed really dull to me too. I guess thats just the price of being the representative army for your faction.

In M31, it makes sense that a legionnaire might have been more loyal to his Primarch than to a distant Emperor. But that calculus is less compelling in M41-42, when all the surviving legionnaires have known for 10,000 years that choosing their Primarchs over the Emperor was a bad decision -- at least concerning who "won." So we've got CSM going around bitterly mumbling about the "Corpse God" and the "False Emperor" but it's like rednecks complaining that polticians are dumb. If they're so dumb, how come you're the one whose poor and dirty?

Well they're totally committed now. It's not like they can ever go back. When they lost their bid for supremacy, they lost everything. Except their hatred
It sustains them, it nourishes them...
Let the Galaxy Burn!!!

GreatGunz wrote:well alot of people say the same thing about the ultramarines, who have always seemed really dull to me too. I guess thats just the price of being the representative army for your faction.

I think there's a difference. The Ultramarines are supposedly dull because they do everything perfectly and have no flaws. (Of course, they do have flaws and don't do everything perfectly -- but what hater lets truth get in the way of an opinion?) Meanwhile, the Black Legion basically never accomplishes anything that they set out to do. (Even when the 13th Black Crusade campaign established that Chaos won, GW only gave Abaddon a token foothold on Cadia.) They have no defining characteristic besides the negative trait of being devoted to nothing in particular. They're just a generalized band of evil losers and it's not oversimplifiying anything (apparently) to sum up all their ambitions as "smash what we don't like."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreatGunz wrote:Well they're totally committed now. It's not like they can ever go back. When they lost their bid for supremacy, they lost everything. Except their hatred
It sustains them, it nourishes them...
Let the Galaxy Burn!!!

So they're having a 10,000-year temper tantrum? Sigh.

Word Bearers as poster boys would be a great thing for CSM. Lorgar represents a true uniting force for Chaos.

He found out quickly that the Emperor had no place for him at his side, he got over it and found something that could give him true purpose.

I think you've made a great point about the Primarchs, I can imagine many Chaos legionnaires being very disheartened by their loss and current situation.

Lorgar and the Word Bearers offer them a unified purpose. It's like being part of the Imperium again, I'd think most would enjoy being relevant in the galaxy once more.

Lorgar for Chaos Emperor!

Nah, Lorgar was as much a puppet as Horus. Erebus seems to be the true heresiarch. Plus -- not only did the traitor Primarchs soundly lose the Heresy, they've also (minus Angron) spent the last 10,000 years doing nothing with regard to the Imperium. Erebus not only rules Sicarius while Lorgar mopes but also emerged to lead the Word Bearers during the 13th Black Crusade.

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:well alot of people say the same thing about the ultramarines, who have always seemed really dull to me too. I guess thats just the price of being the representative army for your faction.

I think there's a difference. The Ultramarines are supposedly dull because they do everything perfectly and have no flaws. (Of course, they do have flaws and don't do everything perfectly -- but what hater lets truth get in the way of an opinion?) Meanwhile, the Black Legion basically never accomplishes anything that they set out to do. (Even when the 13th Black Crusade campaign established that Chaos won, GW only gave Abaddon a token foothold on Cadia.) They have no defining characteristic besides the negative trait of being devoted to nothing in particular. They're just a generalized band of evil losers and it's not oversimplifiying anything (apparently) to sum up all their ambitions as "smash what we don't like."

First, 40k has plenty of good and interesting writing. The Black Legion as it stands is simply an example of how bad rather than how good the fluff can be. Again, the fable of pride type story that you're talking about works just fine among the Luna Wolves in M31 but makes no sense for the Black Legion in 40k.

Second, your "the grimdark is black/white" excuse for the Black Legion's temper tantrum is way off. I'll refer you to the character called Cypher, for example. Or the Inquisition, for that matter. Or hell take a look at what Aaron Dembski-Bowden has done with the Night Lords (who were admittedly already more interesting than the Black Legion). Even Henry Zou's Blood Gorgons, who are very simply Chaos-worshipping Space Marines with no Heresy baggage, are more interesting and thematically coherent than the Black Legion.

The Black Legion is just a the barest minimum fluff necessary to pad a codex. Most other 40k background info has transcended that stage. The CSM overall need better characterization but the CSM posterchild sub-faction is the worst offender.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreatGunz wrote:It's the blood angels' never ending temper tantrum that I don't get. Their primarch is dead, sure. But they won the fight. Mission accomplished. They should be proud of their primarch and what they did, instead of raging out all the time and turning into a bunch of maniacs. They're the ones I get tired of...

Dude, they have a disorder ...

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:well alot of people say the same thing about the ultramarines, who have always seemed really dull to me too. I guess thats just the price of being the representative army for your faction.

I think there's a difference. The Ultramarines are supposedly dull because they do everything perfectly and have no flaws. (Of course, they do have flaws and don't do everything perfectly -- but what hater lets truth get in the way of an opinion?) Meanwhile, the Black Legion basically never accomplishes anything that they set out to do. (Even when the 13th Black Crusade campaign established that Chaos won, GW only gave Abaddon a token foothold on Cadia.) They have no defining characteristic besides the negative trait of being devoted to nothing in particular. They're just a generalized band of evil losers and it's not oversimplifiying anything (apparently) to sum up all their ambitions as "smash what we don't like."

The Black Legion have managed to retrieve Horus' body from Terra, kill the clones of Horus, unite the Chaos Legions behind them, and have the dubious honour of being the guys on the cover of the codex for both Space Marines and Chaos Marines. They are also the only legion on either side to denounce their primarch, and the driving force on the revenge on the Imperium motivation. They never accomplish anything because they're never allowed to, and that's the problem. The evil that's on the verge of escaping ceases to look like such a threat when even when it successfully escapes the company decides it doesn't because then they'd have to think of a way to keep a regiment of guardsmen.

As for a defining characteristic, it's (funnily enough) redemption. The other eight legions followed the Sons of Horus to battle on Terra, and they saw it as the fault of the Sons of Horus that they lost, attacking them repeatedly until Abaddon took control. Only by destroying the Imperium can they rid themselves of the shame of their defeat. As for being evil losers, is that really any different to the Tyranids, Dark Eldar or any other villain that comes along? The Imperium (almost) always wins in the stories, victories for the bad guys are insignificant or glossed over.

GreatGunz wrote:Well they're totally committed now. It's not like they can ever go back. When they lost their bid for supremacy, they lost everything. Except their hatred
It sustains them, it nourishes them...
Let the Galaxy Burn!!!

So they're having a 10,000-year temper tantrum? Sigh.

Hatred isn't a temper tantrum. From their point of view, the Imperium betrayed them, and it, not them, is the villain in the piece. They chose their path with the Heresy, and it's not as if repenting is an option when the Imperial troops would shoot them on sight. Besides, remember that the Heresy is a recent memory to the Legionnaires, and each new recruit brings their own grudge against them. It's not a ten thousand year legacy to them, it's a betrayal and exile within their own lifetime.

Manchu wrote:Nah, Lorgar was as much a puppet as Horus. Erebus seems to be the true heresiarch. Plus -- not only did the traitor Primarchs soundly lose the Heresy, they've also (minus Angron) spent the last 10,000 years doing nothing with regard to the Imperium. Erebus not only rules Sicarius while Lorgar mopes but also emerged to lead the Word Bearers during the 13th Black Crusade.

Good Point. I did enjoy The First Heretic a bit too much, hence the Lorgar love.

Perhaps have Erebus ascend to a more Dominant position within the Council and have the remaining members be the High Lord/Eclesiarchy/Whatever equivalent.



Sounds like a fitting 'Terra' equivalent. It could even be stressed that the other Chaos worlds are 'encouraged' to pay tribute, much in the same ways as tithes, or face the consequences of Holy War.

I'm not sure whether having such a similar Empire to the Imperium would please people, I'd personally love it.
Now what to do with the Black Legion?

Durza wrote:Only by destroying the Imperium can they rid themselves of the shame of their defeat.

So it's about ... vanity?

As for being evil losers, is that really any different to the Tyranids, Dark Eldar or any other villain that comes along?

Yeah, there is a big difference -- namely, character. The Thousand Sons are not just stock evil losers. Neither are the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, the Red Corsairs, the Word Bearers, etc, etc. You can say something particular and interesting about all these sub-factions. You can only make negative statements about the Black Legion -- except what you mentioned about them taking control. Of course, that isn't even true. The Black Legion isn't really in control. Abaddon begs help from the likes of Erebus and Ahriman, who are totally free to refuse him. Talos's explicitly refuses him aid.

Hatred isn't a temper tantrum.

How is it meaningfully different in this case? They lost and they're motivation is being angry and embarrassed about losing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Medium of Death wrote:Sounds like a fitting 'Terra' equivalent. It could even be stressed that the other Chaos worlds are 'encouraged' to pay tribute, much in the same ways as tithes, or face the consequences of Holy War.

I'm not sure whether having such a similar Empire to the Imperium would please people, I'd personally love it.

I think that it'd be a nice contrast to Ultramar, personally. But then again much of the Imperium is already a strong contrast to Ultramar. In fact, Sicarius only sounds a little worse than an Imperial hiveworld.

Manchu wrote:

Durza wrote:Only by destroying the Imperium can they rid themselves of the shame of their defeat.

So it's about ... vanity?

No more than any Imperial attempt to reclaim a world before the taint of Chaos truly sets in is about vanity. They were raised to be warriors and take pride in victory, then they were handed a stinging defeat. Even as loyalists, losses and failures weren't taken well. Also, there's the fact that the gods give more power to those they find useful. The ones that are seen as having lost the war on the Imperium would therefore have to work the hardest to regain their power.

As for being evil losers, is that really any different to the Tyranids, Dark Eldar or any other villain that comes along?

Yeah, there is a big difference -- namely, character. The Thousand Sons are not just stock evil losers. Neither are the Emperor's Children, the Death Guard, the Red Corsairs, the Word Bearers, etc, etc. You can say something particular and interesting about all these sub-factions. You can only make negative statements about the Black Legion -- except what you mentioned about them taking control. Of course, that isn't even true. The Black Legion isn't really in control. Abaddon begs help from the likes of Erebus and Ahriman, who are totally free to refuse him. Talos's explicitly refuses him aid.

Honsou!

Manchu wrote:First, 40k has plenty of good and interesting writing. The Black Legion as it stands is simply an example of how bad rather than how good the fluff can be. Again, the fable of pride type story that you're talking about works just fine among the Luna Wolves in M31 but makes no sense for the Black Legion in 40k.

As a group I don't think they do very good work. That probably has as much to do w corporate oversight as anything else, but they're still not good books on the whole. Take the Horus heresy for instance. What's the difference between loken, tarvitz, and garro? The color they paint their power armor, and that's about it. None of them got a shred of characterization besides how they embody their legion cliches. Garro gets his leg blown off and doesn't care. See how tough he is? Oh that's cause he's death guard. Duh. For people who just want to read war porn that's fine, but at the end of the day it's still basically hack work. Anyway my point is that the black legion could be so much more in the hands of a good writer, but they're so useful as a punching bag that no one has bothered to make them interesting.

Second, your "the grimdark is black/white" excuse for the Black Legion's temper tantrum is way off. I'll refer you to the character called Cypher, for example. Or the Inquisition, for that matter. Or hell take a look at what Aaron Dembski-Bowden has done with the Night Lords (who were admittedly already more interesting than the Black Legion).

He did what I hope one day one of them will do for the black legion. He humanized them so you would t just see them as cartoon villains. Night lords got (and still get) used like that too. It's just now there's a more interesting alternative. I loved soul hunter and got a copy of blood reaver the day it came out for just that reason. There's a great story to tell about the black legion after the heresy: how theyre obsessed with the memory of Horus and they almost get wiped out before abaddon takes charge. What a moment, when they renounce the name of Horus, paint their armor black, and destroy the tomb they used to worship at! Theyre not about Horus anymore. Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy in his grasp and he let it slip through his fingers. That's what abaddon says, and he used to worship Horus. There's a real change of character there, and it would make a great story.

I just think it comes down to corporate management and the desire of a talented writer to tell that story. So far it hasn't happened, but the material is definitely there


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And cypher got cut from the lore bc he doesn't make any sense. Once you give your soul to chaos, there's no going back. Anyway they hardly ever did anything w him

@Durza:

As to your points:

On the one hand, you say the Black Legion are the losers and so have to work harder to gain the favor of the Four.

On the other hand, you say that the Black legion is the largest and most powerful CSM faction.

We both know that the Black Legion never succeeds -- why is not important in this case -- so why are they so large and powerful? However hard they've been working, none of their efforts have been any less disastrous than the Siege of Terra.

First, they are not powerful. Not only do they lose all the time but Warmaster Abaddon's authority over every CSM not in the Black Legion is purely hypothetical, subject to the pleasure of other CSM warlords.

Second, they are large because ... they're generic. Seriously, if you get kicked out of your own Space Marine club (loyalist or traitor) you can always join the Black Legion. Abaddon will take anyone.

Third, we have already established that puritan monodominance is an interesting goal for the IoM, including Space Marines. (Although SM also tend to have more particular and interesting goals of their own, at the chapter level.)

The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

To add to all this excellent discussion, I think it's important to remember there is a big difference between what CSM want and what the Chaos Gods want.

For the Chaos Gods, the endgame is already here. A sprawling human empire trapped in perpetual war and suffering.

Human emotion is where the Gods draw their power, and the Emperor (knowingly or unknowingly) intended to starve them of this power. The Imperial Truth, the re-ordering of the human empire, the quest for total dominance of the galaxy, etc. The Emperor wanted to turn human civilization into a rational, orderly Sweden, while the Chaos Gods want everything to look like Somalia, forever.

To that end, yes, the Traitor Marines were a pawn, and they still are, as are any other humans who worship the Gods. The CSM may have various reasons, but the Gods have incentive to encourage them to continue. Keeping the galaxy in constant turmoil is their goal.

@GreatGunz: Again, you're point about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus is very good -- as long as you're talking about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. But the Black Legion is something else. It's not just Horus's old legion. It's a completely different animal with very little semblance or connection to Legio XVI. You may be on to something but it needs a lot more fleshing out to be relevant in M41/42. What does an ex Night Lord serving in the Black Legion, for example, care about Horus? I suppose you could argue that the Black Legion really represents a complete abnegation of the entire Heresy -- a rejection of Primarchs and Legions and everything that was once Imperial about them. But that just puts us back to where we started: they just do all this because they hate the Imperium/have no meaning or value in and of themselves.

GreatGunz wrote:The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

He actually does. Well technically it's a "familiar" that has minor psychic powers but he's got one. Needs more eyepatch though I guess augmetic is ok.



(technically its more like a pet monkey... well pirates need those too!)

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:To that end, yes, the Traitor Marines were a pawn, and they still are, as are any other humans who worship the Gods. The CSM may have various reasons, but the Gods have incentive to encourage them to continue. Keeping the galaxy in constant turmoil is their goal.

This is what keeps recurring to me, as well. Why don't we have Codex: Chaos Daemons with CSM as an elite choice or something? When you look at the galaxy in M41/42, it's difficult to see CSM as significant. But then again, Tau have a codex, too.

sudojoe wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

He actually does. Well technically it's a "familiar" that has minor psychic powers but he's got one. Needs more eyepatch though I guess augmetic is ok.



(technically its more like a pet monkey... well pirates need those too!)

Lol thanks for pointing that out. Forgot about the hamydra or whatever.
This being 40k it's a demonic monkey w psychic powers... pretty grimdark. Double hurr


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:@GreatGunz: Again, you're point about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus is very good -- as long as you're talking about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus. But the Black Legion is something else. It's not just Horus's old legion. It's a completely different animal with very little semblance or connection to Legio XVI. You may be on to something but it needs a lot more fleshing out to be relevant in M41/42. What does an ex Night Lord serving in the Black Legion, for example, care about Horus? I suppose you could argue that the Black Legion really represents a complete abnegation of the entire Heresy -- a rejection of Primarchs and Legions and everything that was once Imperial about them. But that just puts us back to where we started: they just do all this because they hate the Imperium/have no meaning or value in and of themselves.

Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.
You're right they need more work. I would love to see ADB or someone like him do a black legion book. And it does get old seeing them used as a punching bag. What can we say. 14th black crusade will be a winner for sure

I think it's just as simple as destroying the Imperium. They're powered by pure spite. They really are the most petty people in all of 40K.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:To add to all this excellent discussion, I think it's important to remember there is a big difference between what CSM want and what the Chaos Gods want.

For the Chaos Gods, the endgame is already here. A sprawling human empire trapped in perpetual war and suffering.

Human emotion is where the Gods draw their power, and the Emperor (knowingly or unknowingly) intended to starve them of this power. The Imperial Truth, the re-ordering of the human empire, the quest for total dominance of the galaxy, etc. The Emperor wanted to turn human civilization into a rational, orderly Sweden, while the Chaos Gods want everything to look like Somalia, forever.

To that end, yes, the Traitor Marines were a pawn, and they still are, as are any other humans who worship the Gods. The CSM may have various reasons, but the Gods have incentive to encourage them to continue. Keeping the galaxy in constant turmoil is their goal.

Those are good points.

GreatGunz wrote:The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

Nah, the Badab War is awesome. I admit, the current dex does a poor job of reflecting it but there's substance there. With the Black Legion, I think you'd need some re-writing and new material not just a better writer to handle the old stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreatGunz wrote:Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.

It's definitely a CSM cornerstone. But there needs to be a bit more than "HURRRR!" And I don't mean "DURRRR!"

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.

It's definitely a CSM cornerstone. But there needs to be a bit more than "HURRRR!" And I don't mean "DURRRR!"

Well, that's really all they have left. Their leaders capable of original and decisive actions (like Erebus) are chained rigidly to those who aren't, but overpower them (like Lorgar).

It's the leaders of the traitor marines that are incompetent. All of them. But they are a "might makes right" society, and the mighty are so far beyond those who aren't, that they are unchallengeable.

The powers of Chaos have no interest in changing this reality. In fact, this is entirely what they hoped to gain out of the Heresy, so they keep those mighty idiots in power. Remember, only the traitor marines lost the Horus Heresy. Chaos itself won.

If the Word Bearers become the most powerful Chaos Faction it would give Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle a true enemy. An Apocalyptic Holy War that completely shatters the vision the Emperor had for Humanity.

I still hope the new Chaos book allows for Cultists and Daemons, maybe spice things up a bit from Space Marines with Spikes.

DarknessEternal wrote:Their leaders capable of original and decisive actions (like Erebus) are chained rigidly to those who aren't, but overpower them (like Lorgar).

Slightly different situation but didn't Typhus basically defect from Mortarion?

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:The red corsairs are definitely stock evil losers. Hurrr we're space pirates. Cap'n of the ship's got a peg leg (I mean half-robot body.) he'd mineaswell have a parrot on his shoulder. Theyre incredibly lame.

Nah, the Badab War is awesome. I admit, the current dex does a poor job of reflecting it but there's substance there. With the Black Legion, I think you'd need some re-writing and new material not just a better writer to handle the old stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreatGunz wrote:Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.

It's definitely a CSM cornerstone. But there needs to be a bit more than "HURRRR!" And I don't mean "DURRRR!"

Well, another way to look at it is that they're space barbarians. Which essentially they are. Why did the vikings plunder churches? Because it was fun to kill the monks and there was gold inside. No one was going to stop them, so why not? Chaos space marines are like that alot too. Black Crusades aside, most of the time they're just maurauders who don't have any central leadership or overwhelming objective. Horus was the one with the plan. Abaddon tried to step into that role, but he doesn't have Horus' prestiege or power. After all, no primarch is going to let a lowly 1st captain tell him what to do. I just don't have a problem with bitterness as a motivation. They're warriors. War is all they do and all they know. So it makes sense that they would keep fighting even if they didn't really have a plan. It's not like they can settle down on the farm or something.

It's all about killing the Emperor. The Emperor essentially lied to the Imperium, that gods didn't exist, and they want everyone to see the truth behind him. The man whom they once revered lied to them and denied mankind it's rightful place amongst the stars.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Manchu wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Hey... Hatred is a value. As a longtime chaos player I value my hatred very much.

It's definitely a CSM cornerstone. But there needs to be a bit more than "HURRRR!" And I don't mean "DURRRR!"

Well, that's really all they have left. Their leaders capable of original and decisive actions (like Erebus) are chained rigidly to those who aren't, but overpower them (like Lorgar).

It's the leaders of the traitor marines that are incompetent. All of them. But they are a "might makes right" society, and the mighty are so far beyond those who aren't, that they are unchallengeable.

The powers of Chaos have no interest in changing this reality. In fact, this is entirely what they hoped to gain out of the Heresy, so they keep those mighty idiots in power. Remember, only the traitor marines lost the Horus Heresy. Chaos itself won.

It's true that it worked out pretty well for the gods, even if they didn't achieve their nominal objective.
I don't see the primarchs as being so central, at least not in the 41st millenium. Angron is the only one whose keeping the dream alive. The others are all dead, or else they've passed beyond the realm of mortals in some other way. I mean from a leadership perspective they're pretty much out of the picture. Mortarion and Magnus spend all their time fighitng the other demonic powers in the Great Game. Lorgar has been meditating for ten thousand years, etc etc.

" However, another given reason is that, a scant two years before the Horus Heresy began, Alpharius Omegon was contacted by a Xenos organisation known as the Cabal, which presented the primarch with visions of the Heresy to come and other predictions of the future as well as knowledge about the nature of Chaos. They were shown that the only outcomes of the Heresy were that, if the Emperor won, humanity's existence would be ensured for ten or twenty thousand years of decay before they and the galaxy were consumed by Chaos and that, if Horus won, humanity would perish inside two generations, taking the Chaos powers into oblivion with them, thus saving the rest of the galaxy. The Alpha Legion was asked to take on their greatest challenge; to defect to the side of Horus and ensure the final destruction of Chaos. Alpharius Omegon appeared to accept to this request."

Johnnyboy955 wrote:" However, another given reason is that, a scant two years before the Horus Heresy began, Alpharius Omegon was contacted by a Xenos organisation known as the Cabal, which presented the primarch with visions of the Heresy to come and other predictions of the future as well as knowledge about the nature of Chaos. They were shown that the only outcomes of the Heresy were that, if the Emperor won, humanity's existence would be ensured for ten or twenty thousand years of decay before they and the galaxy were consumed by Chaos and that, if Horus won, humanity would perish inside two generations, taking the Chaos powers into oblivion with them, thus saving the rest of the galaxy. The Alpha Legion was asked to take on their greatest challenge; to defect to the side of Horus and ensure the final destruction of Chaos. Alpharius Omegon appeared to accept to this request."

That was when Alpharius screwed up. I kept wanting to tell him, They're aliens don't listen to them It's sad when primarchs forget their basic training. Rule 1: Know the alien. Kill the Alien.

Angron might as well be a Blood Thirster at this point (and indeed, take a look at his model in Epic) and the World Eaters could be entirely well-served as an entry in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

I'm for it.
The apoc rules were a little underwhelming. But then, it's not so much angron you have to be afraid of, as the twelve blood thirsters he brings with them... that formation is so mighty

GreatGunz wrote:it's not so much angron you have to be afraid of

I think i'd beg to differ.
Angron who takes 100 Grey Knight Terminators to Banish him. Not utterly destroy, just banish for a few centuries if even that.

I'm sure Typhus does his own thing now. He has the Terminus Est and is the Herald of Nurgle, Host of the Destroyer Hive, what does Mortarion have going for him?
A really nice carving of his name, on his heart.

That's hilarious, M_of_D!

Also, wasn't it Typhus who made the Death Guard plague marines in the first place?

Medium of Death wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:it's not so much angron you have to be afraid of

Spoiler:

I think i'd beg to differ.
Angron who takes 100 Grey Knight Terminators to Banish him. Not utterly destroy, just banish for a few centuries if even that.

I'm sure Typhus does his own thing now. He has the Terminus Est and is the Herald of Nurgle, Host of the Destroyer Hive, what does Mortarion have going for him?
A really nice carving of his name, on his heart.

It wasn't just Angron who killed all those GK though. It was Angron and his bodyguard.
The thing about Mortarion never happened. It was written by Matt Ward, and is therefor invalid.

Typhus stranded the Death Guard in the warp in order to allow Nurgle to force them to submit. So yes, he's a bit of a bugger.

The Traitor Primarchs really are terrible (apart from Angron), their old Captains/Advisors from their former legion turn out to be so much better.

I wonder if Erebus, which apparently means child of chaos, will ever be explained. Why did he choose to bring down the fledgling Imperium for chaos?

Edit: On second thoughts I don't want to possibly de-rail the thread.

Because it was written by matt ward, that's why.

Medium of Death wrote:
I wonder if Erebus, which apparently means child of chaos, will ever be explained. Why did he choose to bring down the fledgling Imperium for chaos?

Greed. It's stated flat out.

Arturius wrote:So that he could rule the universe and make everyone do what he said.

Chaos Marines can't really have a unified endgame. Every Champion wants to be the #1 guy, and Abaddon keeps them something like "in line" through a combination of bribery and fear.

If the Black Crusade succeeded, Terra fell, and the Emperor was torn from the Golden Throne, the Chaos Legions would probably splinter more than ever (lacking a unified goal). The various warbands would go off doing their thing, spreading destruction and death as they went. They're quite as happy to fight each other for power as they are to fight the Imperium, so the Chaos Legions would probably disintegrate into hundreds or thousands of mini-empires, with populations split between killing themselves in the name of the dark gods and going to war against a rival warband's empire.

Then they would get curb stomped. The entire concept of the Legions as anything more than a minor threat is misplaced.
The chaos forces that survive Terra (all three of them) would then be obliterated by Imperial forces. Destroying the throne turns off the beacon, but warp travel existed before the beacon existed.

Indeed, it may be the unintentional kick start that allows humanity to throw off the shackles of the Imperium and begin to prosper again. Dark Age II - This Time Its Permanent

I think that's a pretty good analysis: the CSM didn't have what it took to conquer Terra in M31 -- what makes anyone think they could do it in M42? Even with Goge Vandire fething up the whole Imperium for nearly a century in M36, the CSM apparently couldn't make a significant dent.

But there would be real trouble if they managed to extinguish the Astronomicon. Remember that the Emperor was working out a webway for humanity, before being rudely interrupted by Magnus, so as to escape dependence on the Warp for travel. The Golden Throne was Plan B. But in 10,000 years, there's no evidence that anyone else made headway on Plan A. So barring some real breakthroughs on Mars regarding Necrontyr technology, loosing the Astronomicon would do some serious damage. I don't know if CSM steer by it -- I can't remember if this is brought up in Soul Hunter. Anyone else want to chime in on that score?

Manchu wrote:So barring some real breakthroughs on Mars regarding Necrontyr technology, losing the Astronomicon would do some serious damage. I don't know if CSM steer by it -- I can't remember if this is brought up in Soul Hunter. Anyone else want to chime in on that score?

Yes, it's mentioned in Soul Hunter. When it's explicitly mentioned, the Navigator is distraught because she can't see the Astronomican from where they are in the warp. I took this to mean they avoid the clear shipping lanes and risk stormy passages to avoid detection. They seem to spend much of their travel time in storms that threaten to break up the ship (partly due to severity but mostly due to her inexperience and inability to control their ancient cruiser).

Other than that, I don't see why Chaos Navigators wouldn't use the Astronomican whenever they could. It's just a giant beacon saying "this way to Terra".

As I understand it, warp travel means leaving realspace for the immaterium. While in the warp, one cannot "see" anything of realspace, making it impossible to know what part of the warp corresponds to what part of realspace. The Astronomicon, however, can be "seen" in the warp because it is psychic energy. It's beam extends fifty thousand light years, establishing the rough borders of the IoM. It's hard to accept that one could navigate at all without it but presumably the navigator's own psychic powers substitute in, which I'd guess would translate into very slow going indeed. Does A D-B explain this?

Whether or not he does, the CSM would appear to rely on the Astronomicon as much as the IoM. So switching off the Golden Throne would be supremely dumb.

The whole purpose of worshipping Chaos is to achieve daemonhood and immortality. By fighting the IoM they try to prove their worthiness to the gods so they are "gifted" immortality. This is the only goal of every CSM; killing loyalists is just a means to an end.

Manchu wrote:As I understand it, warp travel means leaving realspace for the immaterium. While in the warp, one cannot "see" anything of realspace, making it impossible to know what part of the warp corresponds to what part of realspace. The Astronomicon, however, can be "seen" in the warp because it is psychic energy. It's beam extends fifty thousand light years, establishing the rough borders of the IoM. It's hard to accept that one could navigate at all without it but presumably the navigator's own psychic powers substitute in, which I'd guess would translate into very slow going indeed. Does A D-B explain this?

Whether or not he does, the CSM would appear to rely on the Astronomicon as much as the IoM. So switching off the Golden Throne would be supremely dumb.

Navigation in the warp existed before the Astronomican (although a similar system might have existed before the Age of Strife for all we know). Navigators are able to see the currents and eddies of the warp and presumably have some ability to translate that into motion relative to real space and time. They would have to, because if you think about it, the Astronomican only gives you one fixed reference point ("here's Terra") so you don't get completely turned around. It's like the North Star. You always know which way's north, but you still need a map, sextant, etc to get somewhere with any accuracy.

The Navigator's abilities are necessary with or without the Astronomican. It just makes it easier and safer.

I don't think ADB addresses it directly, but it seems like you can infer that in the passages describing her difficulties navigating, the Night Lords are either 1) way the heck outside the Imperium, or 2) are plowing straight through warp storms to get where they're going and ignoring safe passages.

Spending most of their time travelling where the Astronomican is either out of range or hard to see would explain why Talos and his companions have only experienced about 100 years of time, while 10,000 years have gone by to the rest of the galaxy.

@DeadlySquirrel:

I've been thinking about that over the course of this convo, especially in light of Durza's point on the last page about the Black Legion fighting for redemption in the eyes of the Ruinous Powers. It seems plausible to me that, at the ultimate level of analysis, CSM don't actually give a gak about the IoM itself. The IoM is just a target. Yes, they'd definitely nail an Ecclesiarchy cardinal to an Aquila if given half the chance but the rank-and-file CSM would be just as content to torture and mutilate an Eldar Farseer. The point is desecration and any race that holds something sacred is a worthy target, as far as pleasing the gods are concerned. The particular antipathy CSM have for the "corpse god" and the IoM is therefore just a historical factoid. If a CSM had to choose between obliterating a craftworld or a shrine world, he'd probably choose the shrine world -- all other things being equal. (OTOH, there are ostensibly fewer craftworlds than shrine worlds so maybe furthering the extinction of the Eldar is more heinous.) But the underlying attitude of the CSM is utter contempt for everything in realspace, including themselves insomuch as they are not warp-changed, and they are just trying to transcend into daemons.

Although otherwise tidy, the explanation does want for a further explanation of why more CSM haven't made it to daemonhood and why at least some (Talos, for example*) utterly abhor the notion. As to the former issue, maybe the Ruinous Powers just have exceedingly high standards? Then again, even Abaddon hasn't managed to become a Daemon Prince and he's arguably accomplished more than even the Daemon Primarchs (they're all miserable failures but at least Abaddon has given it more than a single try). So maybe the gods are just stringing the CSM along, granting just enough mutations/princedoms to make the carrot look tasty but using the stick a lot more often, in terms of the spawn-to-prince ratio. Tragic stuff, which kind of explains the second issue, about some CSM wanting to avoid the gods' attentions. And that's where the whole thing really falls apart and the reason why I started this thread. The CSM are motivated by the desire to transcend realspace -- except that, no, they don't want that, either, because it doesn't actually work out well almost all of the time.

* This is my critique of Soul Hunter -- at times, I find it hard to believe I'm reading about CSM rather than loyalists dressed up as traitors, e.g., Dark Angels. And like Dark Angels, some of Dembski-Bowden's Night Lords seem to indulge in "emo is the new black" style of anti-heroism. The vilest of them, the Exalted, is unsurprisingly undergoing possession.

Well as they ran away to warpspace to hide from total oblivion, maybe its as simple as "don't want to be hunted down any more," up to "want to be in charge now." Its a simple motivation for most other dictators, Spazz Emprah included, why not them?

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Navigation in the warp existed before the Astronomican ...

Like what? The Old Ones used the Webway and the Eldar still do. The Orks ... well, there's no real evidence that the Orks actually navigate. (As usual, the Ork experience is a tautology: of course they meant to get to Armageddon -- why else would they be there?) The Necrontyr sure didn't employ the Warp to travel and the Necrons still don't. That leaves pre-Golden Throne humanity -- but I guess the Emperor could project the Astronomicon even before his enthronement? There's a lot of blinding psychic light on Nikaea, for example, when the Emperor is present there.

Navigators are able to see the currents and eddies of the warp and presumably have some ability to translate that into motion relative to real space and time.

Yeah, as I said -- and yet this doesn't make much sense, either. How do the currents of the Warp correspond to real space? The answer seems to be "not very much at all."

They would have to, because if you think about it, the Astronomican only gives you one fixed reference point ("here's Terra") so you don't get completely turned around. It's like the North Star. You always know which way's north, but you still need a map, sextant, etc to get somewhere with any accuracy.

No, the Astronomicon is more like a beam reaching out across the galaxy or a light bulb illuminating a certain amount of space in a warehouese. No Materium-based metaphor does it complete justice but it's more than just as single point. As I mentioned, the scope of the Astronomicon defines the boundary of the IoM.

The Navigator's abilities are necessary with or without the Astronomican. It just makes it easier and safer.

Given what we know about the importance of the Astronomicon, I think that's a massive understatement. It makes warp travel easier and safer over extremely short distances. It makes warp travel possible over significant ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:Its a simple motivation for most other dictators, Spazz Emprah included, why not them?

The Emperor had/has much bigger plans than simply being in charge. Without those plans, I doubt he'd even want to be in charge.

Thats new fluff.

Old fluff
- Travel existed before the beacon. It still does actually-else you couldn't explain the 1mm worlds fluff.

-Prior to the BL Horus Heresy books, no one said the Spazz Emprah had any plans for humanity other than reconquering it. Reconquista is an old, old mantra.

Thank goodness for new fluff.

Chaos says kill I'm all the gods well sort it out...

Fury_00011 wrote:Chaos says kill I'm all the gods well sort it out...

No it doesn't. Chaos says 'force them into a state of constant suffering so the gods will get more power'.

I think if the beacon was snuffed out the CSM would still be able to travel from point to point by the will of the dark gods.

Perhaps even a Daemonic Astronomicon?

There doesn't seem to be any such thing. Although I guess the Eye of Terror could serve that purpose, in a limited fashion. Navigators will do almost anything to avoid the Eye. I don't know if that's true of the Navigators working on CSM ships.

It's never really stated how exactly Chaos do it. It probably will be the Astronomicon, but I think they're should definitely be another option. Although that would kind of downplay the importance of the Emperor.

There is still the Astropathic Choir relays. While they enhance the signal, i'm sure by themselves they would generate enough psychic presence for a Navigator to detect.

If not, Daemonic/Possessed Navigators?

Medium of Death wrote:There is still the Astropathic Choir relays. While they enhance the signal, i'm sure by themselves they would generate enough psychic presence for a Navigator to detect.

If one was close enough. Also the Astropathic Choir is the Interstellar mail service and has nothing to do with navigation. Navigators don't seem to be able to double as astropaths.

If not, Daemonic/Possessed Navigators?

Somehow, daemons find their way into realspace at particular places and times. I think this may be a matter of unhappy coincidence, however, rather than something that could be used by CSM to steer their vessels by.

Ok I'm pretty sure one of the books had a sorrcer acting as the navigator for a chaos ship using his abilities to transverse and navigate the ship.

Okay but which book?

I guess weak Psychic beacons could be created by a gathering of Psykers or something. Each system would probably need to have one though, and the logistics of that would be mental.

I was thinking more along the lines of Daemonhost. They possess the Navigator before they leave.

For example,
Eisenhorn spolier... kinda, not really

Octavia, Soul Hunter's navigator, seems to have no ability to sense the psychic presence of others. She just knows how to steer space boats through the warp.

Apparently, their Third eyes allow them to see the warp, but they have no psychic powers beyond that.
It says they actually have a third eye on their foreheads. I always assumed it was an analogy for a 'minds eye' or some such. According to Lexicanum
they are fairly useless outside of the Astronomicons light.

I'm guessing Psychic energy lights up the warp for the Navigators. Perhaps the longer it lasts and the stronger it is makes the warp easier it is to navigate. So areas that have brief Psychic flashes would be like introducing you into a new room and flicking the lights on for a second and then off again. Then have people move the furniture as you try to get through the room in the dark.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Navigator#.T2pJkNVv_6B

By and large, the material forces of chaos travel the galaxy by the same means as everyone else: regular old warp-capable space craft. This is the whole reason why the Cadian Gate is such a big deal to the Eye of Terror. If they could just teleport around willy nilly by the "power of the gods", they'd actually do that, instead of being trapped in a tiny (relatively) sector of space.

Yes, interstellar teleportation happens from time to time, usually by accident. Conventional travel is still the overwhelming majority though.

Chaos plunders worlds by using giant warp worms that drink entire oceans on one end and then crap them out the other end on a different planet. Not joking.

There are many ideals associated with Chaos. Other than seeking immortality, there isn't really an end game... Chaos doesn't want to rule, it doesn't want law and order. (See World Eaters.)

Then again, there are those who worship Chaos that DO want to rule the galaxy with an iron fist (see Black Legion).

It's a personal thing, one worships the Dark Gods to further one's own goals - be it setting the galaxy on fire just to watch it burn, to BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD,! to ruling over humanity.

Medium of Death wrote:It's never really stated how exactly Chaos do it. It probably will be the Astronomicon, but I think they're should definitely be another option. Although that would kind of downplay the importance of the Emperor.

There is still the Astropathic Choir relays. While they enhance the signal, i'm sure by themselves they would generate enough psychic presence for a Navigator to detect.

If not, Daemonic/Possessed Navigators?

The CSM codex claims that possessed marines can be used as navigators. So that's always an option if you have one. They had to be good for something I guess...