Let's get this straight: the Tau are not Communist.

Communism: classless stateless society.
Tau: Empire with a caste system.

Now go and hang your head in shame.

Noone seriously said so.

Tau are "Space Communists" is just a random slur by ignorant people who a) do not like Tau and b) think "communist" is just a synonym for "idiots" (mainly Americans, sorry guys) without even knowing what it is.

Trying to educate the "haters" will not work.

Tau are not communist by their society - but by their ideology.

Communist ideal call for all people to be equal, for all individuals to work toward the grater good of all Mankind, for better social status of all people and equality and unity to overcome every purpose.Tau ideology is the same, their mission is to bring peace, equality and better life to everyone in the galaxy, to present all races in their empire as equal and to stand united against common threats.

Tau are by ideology communist and by society a mix of Indian/Japanese.

And can we seriously stop with Tau threads already? We have like 9 other factions to choose to discuss about...

Brother Coa wrote:

Tau are not communist by their society - but by their ideology.

Communist ideal call for all people to be equal, for all individuals to work toward the grater good of all Mankind, for better social status of all people and equality and unity to overcome every purpose.Tau ideology is the same, their mission is to bring peace, equality and better life to everyone in the galaxy, to present all races in their empire as equal and to stand united against common threats.

Tau are by ideology communist and by society a mix of Indian/Japanese.

And can we seriously stop with Tau threads already? We have like 9 other factions to choose to discuss about...

There is no mention of "equality for all individuals or races" anywhere in the Tau books.

The idea to work jointly towards a "higher goal" isn't exclusive to Communism. Another inspiration could be Mahayana Buddhism, which runs the theme strongly. Hell, even good old American (or British) Patriotism to work for (even sacrifice your life as soldier) for the rather abstract notion of a "nation" would fit the bill. Same for achieving "better life" for everyone, which largely was the promise of the "West" during the Cold War, less so than the "East".


That said, "Greater Good" in the Tau Codex as a term is a direct quote/reference from Asimov's Foundation Series, specifically "The 1000-Year Plan" to build (hint hint) a "second Empire" in foresight of the predicted collapse of the big, corrupt, galaxy-dominating Empire that exists.

The tau are collectivists, not communists. But unfortunately, nobody ever says "In collectivist Tau, Kroot eat you!". Just doesn't roll off the tongue the same.

So communist it is.

Its the same reason they are the anime army - because people who don't know what they are talking about called it that, and the name stuck.

Brother Coa wrote:

Tau are not communist by their society - but by their ideology.

Communist ideal call for all people to be equal, for all individuals to work toward the grater good of all Mankind, for better social status of all people and equality and unity to overcome every purpose.Tau ideology is the same, their mission is to bring peace, equality and better life to everyone in the galaxy, to present all races in their empire as equal and to stand united against common threats.

Tau are by ideology communist and by society a mix of Indian/Japanese.

And can we seriously stop with Tau threads already? We have like 9 other factions to choose to discuss about...

But 'greater good' is a Utilitarian philosophy, not a Communist one. Communism is, at its roots, focused on economic policies, which the Tau are not.

DrimGark wrote:The tau are collectivists, not communists. But unfortunately, nobody ever says "In collectivist Tau, Kroot eat you!". Just doesn't roll off the tongue the same.

So communist it is.

Tau are not collectivists either. At least, far less so than Space Marine Chapters, Eldar Craftworlds, Tyranid Swarms, Necron Dynasties, even Dark Eldar Kabals (who, though driven by self-interest of individual Dark Eldar, place far more emphasis of the relative prosperty of "their house/faction" in a corporatist-sort of collectivism).

And most modern forms of collectivisms ("for the company", "for the church", "for the community") are the political anti-thesis of communism as it used to be.

When most people refer to Tau as communist, they're more referring to the USSR style communism which had much more social power as well as economic control.

Luke_Prowler wrote:When most people refer to Tau as communist, they're more referring to the USSR style communism which had much more social power as well as economic control.

I don't see that. Infact, USSR-style communism was arguably far less focussed on a "unitary"/"national" vision than the ( partly confucian/buddhist-rooted) easter communisms of China, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.. .

Most things are not most other things. This is not news.

According to Kroothawk Tau are utilitarianism...?

Fralethepalewhale wrote:According to Kroothawk Tau are utilitarianism...?

In the respect that Utilitarianism is focused on the 'greatest good'. But in terms of the Tau, the Greater Good is whatever the Ethereals say it is.

And it usually isn't all that bad, I mean normally it seems as if the Ethereal aren't doing anything terrible. But still I think they are a little different from communism.

Again, I'd dispute the Utilitarianism thing.

wikipedia wrote:
Utilitarianism is an ethical theory holding that the proper course of action is the one that maximizes the overall "happiness". It is thus a form of consequentialism, meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined only by its resulting outcome, and that one can only weigh the morality of an action after knowing all its consequences. Two influential contributors to this theory are Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill.

If Utilitarianism is dependent on the knowledge (and moral weighting) of an actions outcome, the Tau, following rather unquestionably the orders of the Ethereals without given consideration to its outcomes, cannot possibly guide and judge their own actions by any moral foresight that Utilitarianism would reguire. The "greater good" in the Tau is an abstracted, but (to most Tau) unknown ideal that demands unquestioned obedience to. It is not a considered maximization of "ultility" that is pursued by each Tau individually in a ultilitarian reflection of his every action.

Insofar as Utilitarianism is about the "Greatest Happiness", whereas Tau are about the Greater Good, there is a definite connection there, but they are not necessarily the same. I see the Tau "Greater Good" as being more about benefit than happiness. The ideas are clearly linked, but not the same.

Also, although they often (usually, even) go hand-in-hand, a caste system is not necessarily a class system. Caste can define just your role in society rather than your rank or status within it. Admittedly, class and caste usually go hand-in-hand, but not always.

This has been done to death. Anyone with a lick of sense will see that the label 'Space Communists' has no real weight. The idea of a caste system flies directly in the face of communism.

Fifty wrote:Insofar as Utilitarianism is about the "Greatest Happiness", whereas Tau are about the Greater Good, there is a definite connection there, but they are not necessarily the same. I see the Tau "Greater Good" as being more about benefit than happiness. The ideas are clearly linked, but not the same.

Depends on what brand of Utilitarianism you're going for. In some cases the "Greater Good" really is just the greatest amount of happiness for the largest amount of people. In other cases happiness is seen as part of, but not in and of itself, the Greater Good.

Also, although they often (usually, even) go hand-in-hand, a caste system is not necessarily a class system. Caste can define just your role in society rather than your rank or status within it. Admittedly, class and caste usually go hand-in-hand, but not always.

Given in this case that the Ethereal caste are on top, with the Earth caste generally at the bottom, still doesn't help the arguement that Tau are communist.

As much as I like to admit I hate the Tau, they are NOT communist...their ideology is utilitarian, while their social system is virtually identical to the Hindu Caste system.

Actually, it can be said that the Imperium is also utilitarian in a way...with the 'greater good' of mankind (relative to the Imperium) being placed above that of other races, as opposed to the more cosmopolitan Tau Empire.

Simply put:
1) The Imperium
- a theocratic oligarchy that seeks the continued galactic dominance of the Human race (which in a twisted way corresponds to the 'greater good' of Mankind, as the alternative is infinitely worse than the Imperium)
2) Chaos
- theocratic meritocracy (in that followers of Chaos advance by pleasing the Powers of Chaos)
3) Tyranids
- in a twisted way, the Tyranids are perfect communists, as there is no class divisions among the Tyranids, and everything is merely a part of the swarm, to be consumed and used by the Hive Mind as it sees fit - with the consumption of all life being the ultimate goal
4) Eldar
- utopian (at first glance, look deeper and you'll notice a subtler repression similar to the Tau Empire compared to the Imperium) meritocracy, with the survival and eventual re-ascendance of the Eldar as the goal (though not all Eldar agree on the latter)
5) Dark Eldar
- twisted meritocracy with no true 'ultimate' goal
6) Orks
- see Dark Eldar
7) Tau
- utilitarian and cosmopolitan oligarchy - seeks to unite the galaxy under the Greater Good and under the philosopher-king-like Ethereals; utopian and ideal at first glance, but subtly repressive at a closer look
8) Necrons
- oligarchy that seeks to restore Necrontyr ascendance in the galaxy and to stop the Tyranid Invasion; unlike the Imperium and the Eldar, the Necrons (or rather, the Silent King) appear to be prepared to tolerate lesser races, so long as they submit to the Necrontyr

The Tau are certainly not Utilitarian. The Tau Ethereals might be utilitarians. Just as the Emperor of Mankind or the Hivemind(s) of the Tyranids or the 4 Chaos Gods might be utilitarian.

Like all 40K factions, there is preciously little known about the true motivations of those "at the very top".

But from the Ethereals on down, no Tau would dare run a utilitarian "consequences of actions" argument in disagreement with the caste hierarchy or the military chain of command or the Ethereal's will. Hence, no utilitarianism there.

In my view, the caste system is less of a class system and more of a necessity driven by each subset of Tau effectively being a different species (reinforced by selective breeding and role-relegating). I've never heard anything about the Earth being 'at the bottom' - according to the fluff I've read, the four normal castes are equals.

Trasvi wrote:In my view, the caste system is less of a class system and more of a necessity driven by each subset of Tau effectively being a different species (reinforced by selective breeding and role-relegating). I've never heard anything about the Earth being 'at the bottom' - according to the fluff I've read, the four normal castes are equals.

Correct - the four Castes are not only equal to one another, but also to their 'client' races, with only the Ethereals being above them.

The Tau are communist to the extent that communism is a form of state-managed collectivism. The Ethereals make decisions about how to distribute resources within the Empire, supported by a bureaucracy. On a similar vein, the Imperium of Man is a fascist state, not just because they are totalitarian, but also because they have state-managed capitalism - the Imperium's bureaucracy manages the economy, but does it through the creation and organization of businesses, some of which are semi-private. So, economically, the Tau are communists, in that communism = state-managed collectivism.

Of course, there are ways in which they aren't communist. Socially, for example, they are a lot more like confucians, in that they seem to have a culture that focuses on rank, caste, and obligations owed to those above and below you. Remember that although the Tau have a caste system, it's actually a pretty "gentle" caste system. The Fire Caste isn't better than any other caste, they're just the ones tasked with killing gak. Even the Ethereals aren't "superior," they're just "in charge" because they have better logistics and management skills. I mean, sure, if you're a Fire Caste who really likes to tinker with technology or would rather talk to the aliens than shoot them, you're kind of screwed and your life isn't going to be everything you wanted... but it's not like you're a cannon fodder nobody with no hope of advancement. The castes have no - or at least very little - hierarchy outside of the meritocracy of 'la through 'o.

Basically, the Tau are more like an idealized version of Chinese communism than anything else. Chinese communism, but minus the self-inflicted atrocities. Sure, this also ruins the "in communist Tau Empire, Kroot eats you!" jokes.

Where does the utilitarianism come in?

See above, re: "idealized." If communism were to work, it would have to adopt a form of utilitarianism. That's the point. Communism is state-managed collectivism with principles, while capitalism is necessarily unprincipled. In capitalism, the dude who competes the hardest and wins the game wins the resources. In communism, a government body determines who will win the resources. In doing so, it must be guided by some kind of principle, since "give it to the guy who competes the hardest" is already taken. In communist societies that are falling apart, the "principle" is replaced by corruption; in other words, the guy with the best contacts gets the resources. However, in a communist society that's functioning within operational parameters, the decision gets made based on the needs of the many. In other words, utilitarianism. The Tau combine that with a caste-based pseudo-confucian division of labor.

So... where was I going with this? That will teach me to make long and complicated posts right out of bed.

Ah, right. So, the Tau are communists. Not exactly an analogue to any real life communist society, but an amalgam of several, plus some other elements.

More to the point, "blue space commies!" is a lot quippier than "blue space confucian/commie/utilitarians who combine elements of Soviet and Chinese society with a pan-Asian design aesthetic using both contemporary and ancient elements and a somewhat Indian caste-based division of labor!"

ElectricPaladin wrote:The Tau are communist to the extent that communism is a form of state-managed collectivism.

That's wrong from the start. Communism, among other things, aims to overcome the state. It is infact (in the ideal you appeal to) a stateless social order structured around common ownership of the famous means of production. The "state" (or government) in communist ideology is the instrument of oppression and coercion of the few ("the Capital") against the many ("the Labour"). It is a through and through anti-state and anti-government ideology. And the "distribution" of stuff in Communism doesn't follow principles (or hard labour). In the ideal, it simply follows needs.

Zweischneid wrote:

ElectricPaladin wrote:The Tau are communist to the extent that communism is a form of state-managed collectivism.

That's wrong from the start. Communism, among other things, aims to overcome the state. It is infact (in the ideal you appeal to) a stateless social order structured around common ownership of the famous means of production. The "state" (or government) in communist ideology is the instrument of oppression and coercion of the few ("the Capital") against the many ("the Labour"). It is a through and through anti-state and anti-government ideology. And the "distribution" of stuff in Communism doesn't follow principles (or hard labour). In the ideal, it simply follows needs.

The only 40k faction that can be said to ahave achieved that are the Tyranids...unfortunately, they're too busy trying to eat every living thing in the galaxy.

Zweischneid wrote:

ElectricPaladin wrote:The Tau are communist to the extent that communism is a form of state-managed collectivism.

That's wrong from the start. Communism, among other things, aims to overcome the state. It is infact (in the ideal you appeal to) a stateless social order structured around common ownership of the famous means of production. The "state" (or government) in communist ideology is the instrument of oppression and coercion of the few ("the Capital") against the many ("the Labour"). It is a through and through anti-state and anti-government ideology. And the "distribution" of stuff in Communism doesn't follow principles (or hard labour). In the ideal, it simply follows needs.

I'm pretty sure I'm right - but maybe we're operating under slightly different ideas of communism.

Communism is initially constructed as a revolutionary movement. That's why you have to start with anti-state and anti-government rhetoric. However, communists aren't anarchists - that's a whole other movement (I guess there are anarcho-communistsi, though... anyway, they aren't all anarchists). The idea is to take down the oppressive government and setup a new, not oppressive system to manage redistribution of resources after the revolution. Now, there is an extent to which Communism is anti-government, but not in that the idea is to actually live without one. Rather, communists have a deep distrust of government - much like America's tea-baggers :-P. I think a successful communist society would involve a relatively small government, with people generally handing the distribution of resources on their own, in their own communities because they're already "with the program," while a small government guides the process on a meta level.

As far as stuff following need... that's utilitarianism. Things go to people who need them.

ElectricPaladin wrote:. Now, there is an extent to which Communism is anti-government, but not in that the idea is to actually live without one. Rather, communists have a deep distrust of government - much like America's tea-baggers :-P. I think a successful communist society would involve a relatively small government, with people generally handing the distribution of resources on their own, in their own communities because they're already "with the program," while a small government guides the process on a meta level.

As far as stuff following need... that's utilitarianism. Things go to people who need them.

We are not so far apart. Of course there would be a "post-revolutionary" order. But it would not necessarily be one modelled on 20 (21) century conceptions of "states". (considering that it's origins were in a time when the memory of monarchy, and the random shifts of territory and "nationality" of people with arbitrary things like royal weddings or shifting alliances weren't so far removed.. the ubiquity that the concept of "the state" and "the nation" would aquire post-WWII was still a thing of the future. The late 19th century was the era of global mass migration of, by and large, manual labour (who would by the "target group" of communism). The first "passport" that would "tie" individuals to a specific "state" (along with its government) from cradle to grave and restrict travel wasn't invented until about WWI).

Anyhow, it seems we disagree not only on definition of communism, but on definition of ultitarianism. As outlined by early thinkers like John Stuart Mill, it isn't really a "state" (or other collective) philosophy, but more a personal guide for moral decision making, which was (similar to categorical imperative of Kant in the intent) to provide a "non-religious" foundation for "moral" behaviour". I am not even sure it can be "upscaled" to any form of vaguely autocratic society or organisation at all (which all 40K factions are), because it is essentially based around an individual's constant moral reflection of his each and every action with respect to the outcomes to maximise the "happiness" and "utility" overall (and precisely not with respect to imposed authorities of any form which would or could lead to sub-optimal results).

The tau have a clear Orwellian feel to them which people are referencing when the call them space commies; they are not doing it out of ignorance. The tau are not so much being compared to marxist regimes that actually existed (Red China, USSR), but dystopian empires depicted in literature like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Utopia, A Brave New World, and etc. The ethereals impose a eugenic style caste system which tau are bred and and born into their jobs, while maintaining their power through mind control - concepts taken straight out of A Brave New World.

The concepts tau embrace, ‘That everyone has to dedicate their lives to the goals of the state and that working for your own self is the the greatest evil imaginable’; is pretty extreme especially considering that the ethereals are the undisputed leaders of the tau forming a racial-based, oligarchical, totalitarian state; just adds to the shadiness people see in the tau empire. I sympathize with people who got into Tau believing they were playing the Johnny Do Goods of the 40K universe; only to be told that their armies are actually pretty tyrannical, but its hard to overlook the Vespid Communion Helms.

Grunt13 wrote:The tau have a clear Orwellian feel to them which people are referencing when the call them space commies; they are not doing it out of ignorance. The tau are not so much being compared to marxist regimes that actually existed (Red China, USSR), but dystopian empires depicted in literature like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Utopia, A Brave New World, and etc. The ethereals impose a eugenic style caste system which tau are bred and and born into their jobs, while maintaining their power through mind control - concepts taken straight out of A Brave New World.

The concepts tau embrace, ‘That everyone has to dedicate their lives to the goals of the state and that working for your own self is the the greatest evil imaginable’; is pretty extreme especially considering that the ethereals are the undisputed leaders of the tau forming a racial-based, oligarchical, totalitarian state; just adds to the shadiness people see in the tau empire. I sympathize with people who got into Tau believing they were playing the Johnny Do Goods of the 40K universe; only to be told that their armies are actually pretty tyrannical, but its hard to overlook the Vespid Communion Helms.

You've just pointed out one of the biggest flaws in the Tau fan base. The fan bases of other factions know and accept their favorite's negative actions...Imperial and other non-Tau fans refuse to believe in fluff propaganda that puts them in a good light - they know 40k is a grey and black morality. Thing is, Tau fans lap up the Tau Empire's propaganda that the galaxy is black and white morality, with the Tau being white. That's not true. Culturally, the cultures of the Tau eventually overwrite the cultures of the client races. The Tau look down on the barbaric practices of the Kroot that are supposedly equal. Humans who refuse to accept the Greater Good either get executed of 're-educated', not to mention the suspicious Vespid helmets.

Perhaps the Tau are a bit like communism-as-practiced rather than as-preached. As mentioned above, the Tau seem obsessed with categorizing individuals according to their role in society -- proletariat, intelligentsia, etc. Also the Ethereals remind me a lot of the Leninist vanguard party. The Tau habit of incorporating everyone they come across into their ideological framework is also reminiscent of doctrinaire Marxism -- and the related concept of nationalism/racism subtly undermining egalitarian ideals echoes the experiences of the USSR and PRC.

I guess to really be Communists, Tau would need a lot more rhetoric concerning the means of production and the end of history. But "Communist" as a joking label works pretty well.

Grunt13 wrote:The tau have a clear Orwellian feel to them which people are referencing when the call them space commies; they are not doing it out of ignorance. The tau are not so much being compared to marxist regimes that actually existed (Red China, USSR), but dystopian empires depicted in literature like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Utopia, A Brave New World, and etc. The ethereals impose a eugenic style caste system which tau are bred and and born into their jobs, while maintaining their power through mind control - concepts taken straight out of A Brave New World.

The concepts tau embrace, ‘That everyone has to dedicate their lives to the goals of the state and that working for your own self is the the greatest evil imaginable’; is pretty extreme especially considering that the ethereals are the undisputed leaders of the tau forming a racial-based, oligarchical, totalitarian state; just adds to the shadiness people see in the tau empire. I sympathize with people who got into Tau believing they were playing the Johnny Do Goods of the 40K universe; only to be told that their armies are actually pretty tyrannical, but its hard to overlook the Vespid Communion Helms.

Quoted because this is the truth. I made a whole thread about this awhile ago.

Manchu wrote:Perhaps the Tau are a bit like communism-as-practiced rather than as-preached. As mentioned above, the Tau seem obsessed with categorizing individuals according to their role in society -- proletariat, intelligentsia, etc. Also the Ethereals remind me a lot of the Leninist vanguard party. The Tau habit of incorporating everyone they come across into their ideological framework is also reminiscent of doctrinaire Marxism -- and the related concept of nationalism/racism subtly undermining egalitarian ideals echoes the experiences of the USSR and PRC.

I guess to really be Communists, Tau would need a lot more rhetoric concerning the means of production and the end of history. But "Communist" as a joking label works pretty well.

Actually remind me alot more of the British Empire. An undisputed aristocracy at the very top. A favored caste of "native Tau"/"British" who lead the hard military work. A motely assmbly of inducted forces from those they colonized to serve as meat-shields and servants for menial tasks. And expanding rapidly through both "conquest" and "trade"; whatever "weapon" works best there.

Also synchs alot better with the fact that the "Tau Empire" is indeed an "Empire", which doesn't make sense with a communist-analogy.

Tau society is nothing like British society at any point (the Empire covers a lot of ground, historically). Lots of societies can be analyzed as having a "top" and then "everyone else" but it's not a very accurate or even meaningful analysis.

Yes, the Tau are definitely imperialist. But so also did the USSR and PRC preserve and continue the imperial ambitions of the Russian Empire and the Qing Dynasty respectively. Just ask Chechens or Tibetans. Proponents of communism have traditionally suggested it is a universally applicable ideology and have aggressively spread it usually along with political influence -- which is exactly how Tau see the Greater Good.

Tau are communists, don't get hung up on the lingo. Just case they have Castes doesn't mean anything. Yes, true communism doesn't have classes. But, a communist society also organises people into life long jobs. The Tau don't let you choose what you want to do.You'll work whereever they tell you and you'll have to give up your personal wants and identity and assume that of the Tau's, for the greater good. To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of goverment, and to surrender all you ambitions for that of the "CAUSE", is to be communist. That is the heart and essessnce of it. Classes are just filler at that point.

ZombieJoe wrote:Tau are communists, don't get hung up on the lingo. Just case they have Castes doesn't mean anything. Yes, true communism doesn't have classes. But, a communist society also organises people into life long jobs. The Tau don't let you choose what you want to do.You'll work whereever they tell you and you'll have to give up your personal wants and identity and assume that of the Tau's, for the greater good. To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of goverment, and to surrender all you ambitions for that of the "CAUSE", is to be communist. That is the heart and essessnce of it. Classes are just filler at that point.

Isn't that fascism? To give up oneself for the nation and for the ideals of the whole?

But the imperialist ambitions are also the only thing they share with the USSR. The PRC didn't even have any "imperial" ambitions. Its "colonization" of Tibet et al. was instead legitimized by percieved historic belonging.

And no, communism was not being "preached" as an adherence to a greater good of some sort. Marx and others rather saw it as inevitable result of the growing dissonance of economic foundations and political rule. If the "greater good" is something that must be fostered by effort, it is inherently not something close to communist ideology (but, in contrast, does share some similarties with the idea of a "Commonwealth", which isn't that far from "Greater Good"). The British analogy has flaws, no doubt. It still works alot better than any communist analogy.

fas·cism   /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Show Spelled[fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3. ( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, especially the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.





com·mu·nism   /ˈkɒmyəˌnɪzəm/ Show Spelled[kom-yuh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. ( often initial capital letter ) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
3. ( initial capital letter ) the principles and practices of the Communist party.
4. communalism.

ZombieJoe wrote:To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of goverment, and to surrender all you ambitions for that of the "CAUSE", is to be communist. That is the heart and essessnce of it. Classes are just filler at that point.

No. To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of government is arguably patriotism or nationalism, as it is a subordination to a state. Communism is an ideology against the state and the government. It's aim is to dismantle the state, which is considered an instrument of oppression from "the Capital" over "Labour". The two are inherently at odds.

Fascim and communism might be close, but fascim is when you're free speach is stripped away. The Tau have no fluff that says they strip you of your free speach.

But, you better believe the Tau own all the property and social activity. And, for that matter, the Tau are self-perpetuating. They have no elections, the Ethereals just pop up and take control.

The only thing about Tau is they have the ONLY successfull communist party every.

If you think about it, the Empire is actually Fascist. If you speak ill of the Emperor or the High Lords...Woe Betide ye...

Ninja'd a bit.

ZombieJoe wrote:Fascim and communism might be close, but fascim is when you're free speach is stripped away. The Tau have no fluff that says they strip you of your free speach.

But, you better believe the Tau own all the property and social activity. And, for that matter, the Tau are self-perpetuating. They have no elections, the Ethereals just pop up and take control.

The only thing about Tau is they have the ONLY successfull communist party every.

If you think about it, the Empire is actually Fascist. If you speak ill of the Emperor or the High Lords...Woe Betide ye...

But the Ethereals are not a political party, not even of a uni-party state. They lead by divine providence or gene-engineered providence. And I can recall no mention of collective ownership among the Tau. Infact, they even have the "Water Caste" which is explicitly described as merchants and traders.

Zweischneid wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of goverment, and to surrender all you ambitions for that of the "CAUSE", is to be communist. That is the heart and essessnce of it. Classes are just filler at that point.

No. To submit one's self completely to a entity or body of government is arguably patriotism or nationalism, as it is a subordination to a state. Communism is an ideology against the state and the government. It's aim is to dismantle the state, which is considered an instrument of oppression from "the Capital" over "Labour". The two are inherently at odds.

That doesn't change the fact that to have a successful communist society, you must submit yourself to it completely. America citizens can have nationalist ideals but in the end, for a free/open market to work in a capitalist society, the people of it have to have self interests, which in the antithesis of true communism.

Fascism is a political system with incidental economic consequences. Communism is an economic theory that has been interpreted to have definite political implications. The Tau aren't technically Communists because the Greater Good doesn't seem to be an economic theory at all but rather a political one. We don't really know what it's economic implications are. The term "fascism" is a hard sell for the Tau because fascism is inextricably linked with nationalism and racism. The Tau agenda is overtly non-racist (although it may be crypto-racist).

Beyond the fact that they are called communists jokingly, it is more the whole "Greater Good" deal that earns them that reputation.

Zweischneid wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:Fascim and communism might be close, but fascim is when you're free speach is stripped away. The Tau have no fluff that says they strip you of your free speach.

But, you better believe the Tau own all the property and social activity. And, for that matter, the Tau are self-perpetuating. They have no elections, the Ethereals just pop up and take control.

The only thing about Tau is they have the ONLY successfull communist party every.

If you think about it, the Empire is actually Fascist. If you speak ill of the Emperor or the High Lords...Woe Betide ye...

But the Ethereals are not a political party, not even of a uni-party state. They lead by divine providence or gene-engineered providence. And I can recall no mention of collective ownership among the Tau. Infact, they even have the "Water Caste" which is explicitly described as merchants and traders.

They are still the ruling class. They may not be a "party" in the traditional sense, but they are the rulers, whether by diving providence or gene-engineered providence, they are still the self-perpetuating rulers.

Again, the Ethreals are very much like a Leninist vanguard party.

Yes. There is a ruling caste. But I fail to see how "a ruling caste" is communism (or what similarities they share with Lenin). Monarchy, Oligarchy, Theocracy, Tribal societies, etc.. . Nearly all historical forms of government have some form of ruling caste.

The precise attributes that define "communism" such as anti-statist ideology and common ownership of property and "means of production" are not present among the Tau.

Infact, Ethereals are just about the polar opposite of a "Leninist Vanguard Party". The latter were supposed to be "resolute, committed guys" from the lowest rungs of the working class. The former are an aristocratic, refined group of beings who would never consider menial labour of any sort or consider themselves to be "part" of the lowest rungs of society.

Once again, for all those reasons, calling Tau "communists" can only be a joke.

It's a pretty good joke, though.

Grunt13 wrote:while maintaining their power through mind control

You say that like it's an established fact.

Tadashi wrote:Thing is, Tau fans lap up the Tau Empire's propaganda that the galaxy is black and white morality, with the Tau being white. That's not true.

I think you're getting a bit carried away with your assumption that Tau fans are in denial.
Every 40k faction that is not hell-bent on survival at all costs, be it through iron-grip hatred-fuelled tyranny (Imperium) or manipulation and sacrifice of others without a second thought (Eldar), is in it for massive destruction/consumption/corruption of all that exists (Orks, Necrons, Nids, Dark Eldar, Chaos).
And in the middle of the mud, there is a race that seeks not to conserve or destroy, but to build something. This alone is a refreshingly positive attitude. Add to this the fact that the values they push happen to be benevolent, and you have a genuinely endearing (and so far not quite "grey") faction.

Now, your mileage may vary about the actual implementation of their plans for the Greater Good, the measures they resort to and what counts as propaganda.


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Zweischneid wrote:Monarchy, Oligarchy, Theocracy, Tribal societies, etc.. . Nearly all historical forms of government have some form of ruling caste.

Heck, more than one modern democracy are de facto guilty of this.

The cloest thing Tau can be related to, is communist. They may not be 'true' communist but hell, USR wasn't 'true' communist. So far, no society has ever really gotten it right. So you can say that Tau don't have a 100% communist goverment, but its pretty damn close. Close enough that calling the communist is not wrong. They certainly are not any of the other options out there. Tau are some mutation of the pure communist society, but they are, at heart, supporting very Communist/Socialist ideas.

ZombieJoe wrote:The cloest thing Tau can be related to, is communist. They may not be 'true' communist but hell, USR wasn't 'true' communist. So far, no society has ever really gotten it right. So you can say that Tau don't have a 100% communist goverment, but its pretty damn close. Close enough that calling the communist is not wrong. They certainly are not any of the other options out there. Tau are some mutation of the pure communist society, but they are, at heart, supporting very Communist/Socialist ideas.

Which communist idea? There isn't a single communist idea at the heart of the Tau?

They are just an old fashioned monarchy with a medieval caste-system and a rather imperialist outlook that they advance through conquest and (the rather un-communist) method of mercantilist trade.

Ancient Egypt. Ancient India. Ancient Sparta or Troy even. Plato's Philosopher King-ruled Politeia. The British Empire. Napoleonic Imperialism. Even modern-day Nato fighting through "proxy-troops" in places like Libya. Every single one of them fits better, is "closer" to the Tau than "communism".

Again, they actually "incorporate" other regions through trade. Tau are probably the ONLY 40K faction with anything remotely resembling capitalism (outside of the Ork's "teeth"-economy).

Zweischneid wrote:

ZombieJoe wrote:The cloest thing Tau can be related to, is communist. They may not be 'true' communist but hell, USR wasn't 'true' communist. So far, no society has ever really gotten it right. So you can say that Tau don't have a 100% communist goverment, but its pretty damn close. Close enough that calling the communist is not wrong. They certainly are not any of the other options out there. Tau are some mutation of the pure communist society, but they are, at heart, supporting very Communist/Socialist ideas.

Which communist idea? There isn't a single communist idea at the heart of the Tau?

They are just an old fashioned monarchy with a medieval caste-system and a rather imperialist outlook that they advance through conquest and (the rather un-communist) method of mercantilist trade.

Ancient Egypt. Ancient India. Ancient Sparta or Troy even. Plato's Philosopher King-ruled Politeia. The British Empire. Napoleonic Imperialism. Even modern-day Nato fighting through "proxy-troops" in places like Libya. Every single one of them fits better, is "closer" to the Tau than "communism".

Again, they actually "incorporate" other regions through trade. Tau are probably the ONLY 40K faction with anything remotely resembling capitalism (outside of the Ork's "teeth"-economy).

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. Communist is the idea of the collective over the individual, which is the essence of Tau.

ZombieJoe wrote:
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree. Communist is the idea of the collective over the individual, which is the essence of Tau.

That is not communism. And insisting it is, is just willful ignorance. I agree that the Tau have a theme of "collective over the individual" (as do, for example, all Space Marine Chapters who put their Chapter over themselves, and usually the IoM over their Chapter). But that is not communism by any indication.

Tadashi wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:The tau have a clear Orwellian feel to them which people are referencing when the call them space commies; they are not doing it out of ignorance. The tau are not so much being compared to marxist regimes that actually existed (Red China, USSR), but dystopian empires depicted in literature like Animal Farm, 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Utopia, A Brave New World, and etc. The ethereals impose a eugenic style caste system which tau are bred and and born into their jobs, while maintaining their power through mind control - concepts taken straight out of A Brave New World.

The concepts tau embrace, ‘That everyone has to dedicate their lives to the goals of the state and that working for your own self is the the greatest evil imaginable’; is pretty extreme especially considering that the ethereals are the undisputed leaders of the tau forming a racial-based, oligarchical, totalitarian state; just adds to the shadiness people see in the tau empire. I sympathize with people who got into Tau believing they were playing the Johnny Do Goods of the 40K universe; only to be told that their armies are actually pretty tyrannical, but its hard to overlook the Vespid Communion Helms.

You've just pointed out one of the biggest flaws in the Tau fan base. The fan bases of other factions know and accept their favorite's negative actions...Imperial and other non-Tau fans refuse to believe in fluff propaganda that puts them in a good light - they know 40k is a grey and black morality. Thing is, Tau fans lap up the Tau Empire's propaganda that the galaxy is black and white morality, with the Tau being white. That's not true. Culturally, the cultures of the Tau eventually overwrite the cultures of the client races. The Tau look down on the barbaric practices of the Kroot that are supposedly equal. Humans who refuse to accept the Greater Good either get executed of 're-educated', not to mention the suspicious Vespid helmets.

Once again Tadashi womits out lies...

Hyd wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:while maintaining their power through mind control

You say that like it's an established fact.

It is, read Xenology. An ethereal was dissected and the biological system of control was revealed. Mind controlling chemicals are released through their forehead diamond thing. Which going back to the the first and second tau codex IIRC, 'No tau can refuse the commands of an ethereal, any tau can be order to kill themselves and they would do so without question'. Really makes me root for the Farsight tau who resemble the protagonist in the the books like Fahrenheit 451, 1984, and Brave New World.

I admit that I call Tau communists routinely. I am fully aware of how much they do not fit the label, but I enjoy the outrage it causes over such a ridiculously minor thing.

There are lot of stereotypes made of all the different factions in 40k and they are not worth getting worked up over.

If not agreeing with your perception of a loosely defined definition is your idea of "willful ignorance" than I see no reason to continue to debate with you. You're welcome to your interpration, but in mine communism is what you get when a society puts their individual desires aside and adopts one for the good of all.

Yes, SM's and most of the Imperium share this trait. But, they have an open market (well more open) with private enterprises, rogue traders. They have also a fascist way of silencing anyone who doesn't agree with them. In that, I'd say the Empire has an even harder system to define.

Tau, if you read the books and fluff, which I'm doubting you have, or atleast completely. You'll notice a trend. First, individuals are not given a choice over what thier jobs will be. Two, they do not get to elect officals, ever. In fact, not only do they not get to elect officals, but they don't even get represeted by anyything other than species of one particular race. Three, casts are not classes. A class is a division of wealth. Castes are a division of labor. The fire caste dont have more money that the water, they just have different jobs. If you read about the USR, you'll see that this was largely how many jobs were asigned. China does the same thing, read the bio on sun ming ming and how he got into basket ball. All the nations of our world who are communist have do this.

Tau are closer to communist than anything else.

Agreed. They are fascists.

Perhaps. But, I hope I don't step on your toes, your interpretation of "communism" seems to partly coloured by the versions you would find it, say, american presidential elections, where "socialist" and "communist" is largely used as a catch-all term for everything that is deemed to go against "the american way of doing things" made up largely of individual entrepreneurship and resistance to public regulation (at least at a national/federal level).

Noone disagrees that Tau present a dystopian society. Or that they use indentured labour, genetic manipulation, double-standards in dealing with alien "allies", ruthlessly overrule individual desires in pursuit of societal goals, etc... . In that, they share traits with all autocratic, undemocratic and dictatorial regimes that have ever exited, all of which have always and without exception trod on individual rights and freedom. And yes, many, likely all communist regimes have ended up as dictatorial oppressions in one way or another. Your definition of "communism" doesn't seem to be based on "what communism does". Your definition of "communism" seems to be based on "what communism does not": e.g. respect individual freedom. You're right, it doesn't. But so don't most other things. It's not what "defines" or "differentiates" communism however.

But to classify them ALL as communism rather misses the historial and ideological specifity of communism (an anti-government, revolutionary movement seeking to overthrow hierarchical, inherited rule as those represented, perhaps, by Ethereals). It's like classifying all non-white colours as black, just because "black" has the best ring in sluring "white". It might work for US presidential elections perhaps, but for a setting which largely prides itself of presenting a rich variety of (very dark) shades of grey, it does a disservice to the ingenuity and creativity of the GW staff writing these things to just willfully ignore the rich variety of inspirations (the Japanese feudal castes of warrior, farmer, trader, reinforced by the Ahigaru-style rifles, the Asimov-reference that originated the "greater good", etc..).

Hell, it would perhaps even be fun to have a "communist" race in 40K IMO, where some Alien's lowest rungs of society have successfully overthrown their rulers and now try to "convert" other 40K races to rebell against their aristocratic Overlords, Farseers, Ethereals, whatever.. in the name of an intergalactic proletariat solidarity.

But Tau are not that race. Sorry.

I can certainly see the reasoning beyond your perspective. I would agree that Tau are not purely communist and also the Empire is not purely Facist. They are both too complex to be labeled so simply. Tau do not demonstrate 100% Communist ideals. But, I think you're splitting hairs. If we want to advocate why they are not communist then I'd say you've presented a sound argument that mertis consideration. But, calling them Communist is just 'best guess' or 'rounding up'. They exhist some very classic and connotative ideas of communism. Does that make them communist, maybe not. But, as far as the OP is concerned, yes Tau are communist. In the simplist of terms and to define them somehow, it is easier to say that Tau are. Calling them some strange Neo-Communial-Feudal-hodgepodge, is going to far. For simplicityies sake, its just quicker, and fairly accurate. I say they have more reasons to be called communist then not to be.

Sturmtruppen wrote:
But 'greater good' is a Utilitarian philosophy, not a Communist one. Communism is, at its roots, focused on economic policies, which the Tau are not.

And yet again:

Society follows Utilitarian philosophy but their ideology is still Communist one.
Ideology and Society are always connected but they can almost always be two totally different thing.
American society follows "try to control as much as you can" philosophy, but they are still Christians by majority.


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In fact, Tau ideology being an communist one makes perfect sense because Tau are easterly motivated.

They have caste society witch is common in India/Southeast Asia.
Their ideology fit with China ( who is the worlds most powerful Communist country. )
And all their high tech and anime touch was obviously inspired by Japan.
And there you go - all Asia in one faction. ( Except for the Middle east, but that is Tallarn oriented ).

Brother Coa wrote:

Sturmtruppen wrote:
But 'greater good' is a Utilitarian philosophy, not a Communist one. Communism is, at its roots, focused on economic policies, which the Tau are not.

And yet again:

Society follows Utilitarian philosophy but their ideology is still Communist one.
Ideology and Society are always connected but they can almost always be two totally different thing.
American society follows "try to control as much as you can" philosophy, but they are still Christians by majority.

Frankly, most American's I ever met are far more zealously "communitarian" in their fervor for "America", "the consititon", "their country", "their community", whatever than the "average" European. Even professionally, they seem far more eager to "live" their coporate identity than most other nationalities. University or sport-team badges are worn like uniform and are frequently seen as part of your "person", rather than just places where you read books, took tests and work out. America's political systems and its two main-parties enforce "political loyality" and rather unreflected antagonism far more than most European parties or political systems, where switching alliances throughout your life or even on certain issues seems more common.

Don't confuse rethoric with actual behaviour.

Can someone give me a reason why we want to define this? I mean lets say that we prove that the tau are this or that the tau are that, whats the next step?

nomotog wrote:Can someone give me a reason why we want to define this? I mean lets say that we prove that the tau are this or that the tau are that, whats the next step?

Dunno. But if people keep saying the sky is red, it tends to irritate and provokes that some people will eventually point out that it isn't actually red. Hell, a fair number of people here have actually admitted they know "Tau aren't actually communists", but enjoy the flamebaiting potential that the association offers.

nomotog wrote:Can someone give me a reason why we want to define this? I mean lets say that we prove that the tau are this or that the tau are that, whats the next step?

Kill everyone who doesn't agree with us. It's the only way.

nomotog wrote:Can someone give me a reason why we want to define this? I mean lets say that we prove that the tau are this or that the tau are that, whats the next step?

Stop the weekly "Tau are/are not communists" threads?

I will probably attract some haters but its simple tau are united by a common cause. And have seen it work they get help from other species to fullfill their goal and that goal becomes a common goal for all the species. So yeah no communism in the tau empire. You have ranks and differences in society its just that you get the same respect and aren't belittled. No communism maybe unity to a common cause i personally think its communism how it should work. Everyone gets respected but you can make career you work together for the greater good its a beautiful ideal not some slowed communism stuff.

It’s not everyone voluntarily joining together to fixed the universe. The Greater Good is whatever the ethereals say it is; it is not something other tau or aliens get to have a say on it - this is displayed in the fluff when a tau commander was repulsed by a certain action (equipping his man with guns that would overload and kill them) an ethereal was able to change his mind in an instant by simply telling him it was for the greater good.

Varlak was a rogue pysker whose power was that every statement he made was regarded by the audience as the unquestioning truth. He turned a planet over night to his whims (something mirrored by the first ethereals) and forced the population to die fighting the imperial response. The ethereals have the same power regarding the tau - the four castes are basically enslaved by the ethereals. There is an assortment of fluff out there showing that the ethereals are keeping the tau ignorant and misled for their own reasons. The ethereals are in complete and total control, no other opinions matter or even seem to exist in their empire - there is no possibility of dissent for the Tau. The have to obey the ethereal completely, even if the ethereal orders the tau to kill himself.

It was only when the Farsight ethereals were killed did the farsight enclave form. With no ethereals and no more mind control; the tau from the four caste rejected the tau empire and started their own separate community free of the ethereals. When given an actual choice the tau freed from ethereal influence rejected the greater good.

Why so cranky? I say the Tau hold the Kroot tight every night to help them get to sleep.

BOOOHHHYAAA!!!!

The funny thing is, I am starting to believe that the problem lies not with the Tau, but with what people perceive as "communism".

Ethereals hold some unexplicable, near-absolute "mind-control" over the Tau (and by extension of technology, their alien allies). Not much controversy there.

Funny though, it seems that this is the same perception people appear to have of "communism". As if people who listened to Mao or Marx suddenly had their eyes glaze over as with some alien bodysnatcher-style mind control. That they shuffled along like zombies to join "the revolution", ignoring being threatend, beaten, starved and mutilated, their families murdered as they moaned a "for the greaaater good.. away with my individualitiiiiiyy" as their eyes turned inwards and pupils white.

This is, evidently not the case. People who joined the "communist cause" were just as much "normal people" as they are in the US or Britain or everywhere today. Marx or Mao didn't start a revolution by Ethereal-style mind control. They started by offering oppressed people a (real or imagined) way out of a life of backbreaking labour and misery, pointing their anger at the aristocratic rulers and governments that, in communist lingo, were exploiting "the working class" by their control of "the Capital". But when millions of Russians or Chinese rose up in the Bolchevik or Great Cultural Revolution, they sure as hell weren't some "no-individuality-mind-wipe" zombies. They were, every single one of them, as driven by "self-interest" as Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, just without the eduction and opportunity, hoping they could change the world to the better for themselves or their children.

Not this thread again.

Here:

(Many thanks to Doombringer over on advanced tau tactica for this writeup)

Revised Essay on the Tau Government

The Tau are not a Socialist, Marxist, or Communist state. They are not Alien Space Russians!

---

--- Communism and Marxism ---

Put quite simply, taken directly from Wikipedia, Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production.

Tau are not classless, having a rigid Caste and Rank system that while does not impose any stigma on being of a lesser rank while preaching equality, is far from equal. A Shas'la cannot wake up one morning and decide to be a Kor'la - it is forbidden of him, thereby stripping the Shas'la of his would-be Communist/Marxist freedom of not having an exclusive sphere of activity but being able to be accomplished in any branch he wishes.

He is placed where the Empire wants him, then inconspicuously and subtly forced to submit.

---

--- Socialism and Democracy ---

Socialism, on the other hand, is a much broader socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community, and is often characterized by state or community ownership of the means of production.

The Tau community does not control the Empire's property or distribution of wealth, again having a rigid Caste system and government-placed jobs based on the needs of the Empire and abilities of the individual. If anyone has control of the Tau's property and wealth, it is the High Councils and the Aun who distribute it "equally" amongst the public.

In addition, full Socialism would not work without extensive implementation of Democracy - another little system of government that the Tau do not grasp. The common Tau has no say in how he lives his life; his individuality is slightly/extremely suppressed (depends on how you look at it), he serves his superiors without question, and devotes his life to the Greater Good of his nation. Only the High Councils and the Aun have any say in how the Empire progresses.

---

--- What are the Tau then? ---

With this in mind, you should now be able to see that while Collectivist in nature, the Socialist/Communist approach simply doesn't parallel or mesh with the Tau Empire very well.

So what are they, you ask?

I strongly believe that the Tau Empire has much more in common with the concepts of Imperialistic Utilitarianism, a rather vague but overall more fitting explanation or description for how the Tau run things (rather than an even more vague and irrelevant socio-economic system, considering the fluff still hasn't provided any information regarding a Tau economic system at all).

Imperialism, being the forceful extension of a nation's authority by territorial gain or by the establishment of economic and/or political dominance over other nations.

Utilitarianism, being the ethical doctrine that the moral worth of an action is determined solely by its contribution to overall utility. Utility, being the "good to be maximized" (sound familiar?).

Tau Empire Codex pg. 10 wrote:
The Tau are a supremely dynamic and energetic race. The principle of the Tau'va - the Greater Good - drives them ever outwards from their homeworld, into the great unknown of space. [...] The Greater Good requires that all join together and acknowledge the guidance of the Ethereal caste, and this includes any and all races with whom the Tau come into contact. [...] Those worlds that will not willingly join the Empire are dragged to the negotiating table under threat of annihilation. Those that remain openly defiant face obliteration under the orbital guns of the Air Caste fleet.

The Tau Empire encompasses a dense yet astrographically small area of space. [...] As the Tau steadily expand the borders of their empire, they continue to encounter other races. The empire now encompasses over twenty septs - fully developed Tau systems - and a large number of vassal alien homeworlds. The populations of these worlds are fully integrated in to the empire, each striving towards the Greater Good.


---

--- Despots, Totalitarianism, and Oligarchies? ---

So now you may find yourself asking, doesn't this mean that the Tau Empire is run by despots if the common people really have no say in their own futures?

In a manner of speaking, yes, but don't look at it from a human perspective. Separate yourself from the idea that "all men are created equal" and forget you ever learned about the concepts of freedom and democracy, and you can see that being a despotic society isn't necessarily an "evil" thing at all when implemented in the way that the Tau implement it.

Being a Despotic society seems to be one of the only ways to make what the Tau Empire does, work. No so-called "ethical", "moral", or "free" individual in their humanly right mind would want to willingly give up that freedom or individuality to exercise the type of Utilitarianism that the Tau Empire practices daily - they'd have to be subtly forced or coerced into doing it, as we know the Ethereals do through the fear of returning to the Mont'au.

As stated by Khanaris, and extrapolated by myself, these rulers are Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies of the Aun Caste (headed by "Chairtau" Aun'O T'au Acaya'va'denta) and the the tight-knit Meritocratic "Lower Councils" comprised of figureheads of the Elemental Castes.

Of course, the Tau implement so many of these systems across the various Sept worlds that comprise the Empire that it is a Checks and Balances system in its own, ensuring no one Tau can ultimately control every aspect of the entire Empire, but it's speculated that Aun'va could come dangerously close to it. This is likely simply due to the fact that he is said to be the oldest and wisest Ethereal, so many Tau would believe that there wouldn't be anything wrong with his council, suggestions, or declarations and wouldn't bother to oppose him, even if they could.

In addition, this is a very Totalitarian society, in which the state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behavior so that individuals are allowed certain personal freedoms, except when they are counter to the Utilitarian and Religious ideals of the "Greater Good".

---

--- Utilitarian Misconceptions ---

Like the Wikipedia article says, there are two common "misconceptions" about modern human Utilitarian society that seem to have to be justified by/to us humans to understand or accept for ourselves.

Wikipedia - Utilitarianism wrote:
The principle of "the greatest good for the greatest number", introduced by Bentham, is often mistaken as meaning that if something hurts one person and helps many, it is always morally justified. The principle of "the greatest good for the greatest number", introduced by Bentham, is often mistaken as meaning that if something hurts one person and helps many, it is always morally justified. This is not the case, however; as noted above, Bentham dropped the misleading "greatest number" part of the principle, replacing the original formulation with the more direct "greatest happiness principle." Thus, the morality of an action is not determined by the number of people made happier, but rather the quantity of happiness produced. A great loss to one individual might be outweighed by small gains for many, but it might not. Even if 1 person is hurt and 100 people are helped, the harm to the one might be so great as to outweigh the small gains for the rest of the people.


Wikipedia - Utilitarianism wrote:
Second, some criticize utilitarianism for implying that individuals' interests can be sacrificed for the sake of the "society" or the nation. Modern utilitarianism however proposes that one individual's interests can only be sacrificed for the sake of the interests of other individuals. As Bentham put it, "The interest of the community is one of the most general expressions that can occur in the phraseology of morals: no wonder that the meaning of it is often lost. When it has a meaning, it is this. The community is a fictitious body, composed of the individual persons who are considered as constituting as it were its members. The interest of the community then is...the sum of the interests of the several members who compose it." [6] While it may benefit individuals to have a healthy society or a functional state, neither of these are ends in themselves.


While these criticisms are countered and justified by Jeremy Bentham to apply to modern non-dictatorial human civilization, the Tau's Ethereal leadership, suppressed freedoms and individualities, and rigid Caste system do not require such justifications for a Tau to accept.

It's perfectly acceptable in Tau society (whether the individual Tau has any say or not) to follow such an extreme form of Utilitarianism as morally justifying anything that hurts one to help many, or to sacrifice one's individual interests for the sake of the nation - which is probably why so many people find it hard to wrap their heads around this concept - because we aren't little blue aliens so our brains work differently.

But if you want the Tau in a nutshell with as many tags as possible, then here's what you get.

The Tau Empire
Despotic Totalitarian Collectivist Imperialistic Utilitarianist Society
ruled by Theocratic Hereditary Oligarchies watching over Meritocratic Councils

but more importantly...

The Tau Empire - NOT COMMUNIST/MARXIST/SOCIALIST SPACE RUSSIANS/CHINESE

---

And that's just the political side of the house. We still have very little information on how the Tau's economic system works, so we have to wait before we can start adding a Socialist/Capitalist tag for that.

If you want, you can add even more defining tags to it than what I have included above, but juxtaposing specific human socio-economic systems on an alien culture of little blue aliens (which we still don't know enough about to make a final decision on) just doesn't work.

Hope this helps...

Hey guys, very awesome read here. It seems like many of you have put a lot of intelligent thought (because not all thoughts are intelligent ones) into this. I've greatly enjoyed reading what everyone had to say

As far as I recall the mind control was just an explanation Imperial researchers came up with to try to explain the extraordinary loyalty of the Tau to the Ethereals. Charisma (and a very specific cultural mindset) can attain the same effects, but I don't see an Imperial agent buying the idea that a non-coercive method would ever ensure obedience.

juraigamer wrote:If you want, you can add even more defining tags to it than what I have included above, but juxtaposing specific human socio-economic systems on an alien culture of little blue aliens (which we still don't know enough about to make a final decision on) just doesn't work.

But but but it's sooo much simpler ! Not funny :(

Hope this helps...

It does, thanks.

this was a very intresting topic to read although it did look like it was going to turn into a flame war. What does the Tau mean by reeducation?
and another question to add, I had read some where that tau peform mass nutering to populations to some of the worlds that they coloinise is that true?

The Tau are not communists. They may be blue, annoying, xenos, incapable of CC, communists, and fragile. But they are NOT porn-stars.

(Apologies to Grandpa Simpson)

DrimGark wrote:The Tau are not communists. They may be blue, annoying, xenos, incapable of CC, communists, and fragile. But they are NOT porn-stars.

That's the best post of the day, I reckon.

Caste system with confusian beliefs (greater good)

they are oriental for sure

they even fly gundamwing like things at a young age ....

No offence meant by following statement:

Tau are America/American's. Reasoning: They are a fledgling race, eager and gung-ho, like to use big guns and blow things up before thinking. Its like the wild west, in space, but with everything a weird yellowy orange colour :/

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:No offence meant by following statement:

Tau are America/American's. Reasoning: They are a fledgling race, eager and gung-ho, like to use big guns and blow things up before thinking. Its like the wild west, in space, but with everything a weird yellowy orange colour :/

I love when things start with 'I'm not being racist, but...', or 'Not to be offensive, but...'.

Also - hasn't this whole thread so far been trying to prove that Tau aren't what people think of as 'stereotypically (and probably wrong) communist'?

And you want to replace that with sterotypically American?

In fact, if you want to, we could compare the Tau to Imperialist Britain.

The fact is, no matter how you put it, all races in 40k (and fantasy) are based on civilisations that either exist or have existed.

No idea is original, and why try and hide certain things that are blatant?

The facts of the Tau are they are a fledgling society, same as America (compared to age of other countries). There are also a lot of other similarities.

Praetorians = British
Eldar = Greeks
Ultramarines = Romans
Valhallans = Rusians
Vostroyan = Cossacks
Tyranids = Primordial evil.

I can keep going on. But the fact is, this game has countless stereotypes, rightly or wrongly. thats the way GW has done certain things.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:No offence meant by following statement:

Tau are America/American's. Reasoning: They are a fledgling race, eager and gung-ho, like to use big guns and blow things up before thinking. Its like the wild west, in space, but with everything a weird yellowy orange colour :/

More like the British empire. America stopped conquering things when it hit the pacific ocean.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:The fact is, no matter how you put it, all races in 40k (and fantasy) are based on civilisations that either exist or have existed.

No idea is original, and why try and hide certain things that are blatant?

The facts of the Tau are they are a fledgling society, same as America (compared to age of other countries). There are also a lot of other similarities.

I've got an example that trumps yours.

Imperialist Japan.

Think about it. After Commodore Perry opened Japan to the rest of the world, it quickly industrialized and began to conquer Asia, especially evident in WWII. Even before that, it had shown to be a capable power, defeating a European power (Russia) on its own.

infinite_array wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:The fact is, no matter how you put it, all races in 40k (and fantasy) are based on civilisations that either exist or have existed.

No idea is original, and why try and hide certain things that are blatant?

The facts of the Tau are they are a fledgling society, same as America (compared to age of other countries). There are also a lot of other similarities.

I've got an example that trumps yours.

Imperialist Japan.

Think about it. After Commodore Perry opened Japan to the rest of the world, it quickly industrialized and began to conquer Asia, especially evident in WWII. Even before that, it had shown to be a capable power, defeating a European power (Russia) on its own.

It's probably a little of both tbh, as Japan was highly influenced and still is by western (and more specifically) American culture.

Still. One of the most notable features of the Tau (compared to all other 40K factions) is their use of trade to expand their influence.

The Kroot were explicitly not "conquered", but drawn into the Empire by Tau Traders (p. 7). Even imperial contact is described as being initially along those lines.

Tau Empires p. 8 wrote:
Members of the Water caste had established trade agreements with Imperial worlds on the frontier and exchanges of goods and technology were common. Alarmed by the threat of alien contamination, the Administratum readied a suitable response and, almost a century later, the Damocles Crusade smashed into Tau space...

The only vaguely fitting historical equivalent (I am aware of) to the Tau Water Castes approach of Imperial expansion through trade and profit would be the British East India Trading Company.

Rogue Traders might do similar things for the IoM, but there's hardly 1 Rogue Trader for ever Billion Imperial citizen. Water Caste make up around a quarter of the Tau population presumably.

The Tau are a unique form of government. The only way to describe their governmental style is a blend of several several styles.

- They cant be communists, because they do not believe in equality of all.
- they are not quite Orwellian because they dont seem to be constantly changing thier own rules to suit the needs of the Pigs/Ethereal. (Animal farm, awesome book, read it if you havnt)

My take is the Tau are a Blend Facism, Fuedalism and theocracy.

From a facist take the Tau are as such:
- They have a commitment to unifying in a Natural community where its individuals are united as one people in a national identitiy. (For the Greater Good!)

- Fascism seeks to purify the nation of foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture. To achieve its goals, the fascist state purges forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration. (Freedom of religion for all those conquered, unless it contradicts the greater good!)

- Fascism promotes political violence and war, as forms of direct action that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality. Fascists commonly utilize paramilitary organizations for violence against opponents or to overthrow a political system. (The Tau have no qualms about conquering neighboring Aliens, the greater good is not a choice for those they encounter. The only choice is accept it by a handshake or by a rail-gun).

Now where the Tau differ from a fascist ideology is that Fascists reject a class based society. Therefore since they are a class based society, thier government can be at least partially considered Feudalistic.

The closest human fuedal society i can think of is Japanese Feudalism. Mainly because religious/spiritual leaders are not a part of thier class structure but are above it.

Japanese Feudalism had the following 4 classes:

Samurai - Fire Caste
Artisans - Earth Caste
Farmers - Also Earth Caste
Merchants - Water Caste
The Air Caste is unique in that no feudal society i know has a caste specifically for pilots/sailors

Atop the heap in Japanese feudalism was the Shogun above all other classes, like the Ethereals.

There is also a stong element of Theocracy that could be seen in Tau Society, with the greater good being the religion and the ethereals replacing the priesthood atop of a Fuedal/facist society. Along with their desire to spread their ideology to everyone else.

TLDR
Facist because they unify their society based on a belief in their own superiority, and use of force is common and systemic to them. All opposition is crushed.
Fuedal because they are class based, with every class providing a vital role to the society.
Theocratic because they are lead by spiritual leaders and an almost religious commitment to and Ideal.

Tau are not commys but a Fascist Feudal Theocracy.

Tau are not fascist by most common definitions of the term. Example

14 Characteristics of Fascism wrote:
The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.


2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.


3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.


4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.


5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.


6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.


7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.


8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.


9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.


10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .


11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.


12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.


13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.


14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Point 1: No: Not really. No aggressive flaunting of flags and symbols. "the Greater Good" could be a motto perhaps, but though it is a guiding principle, it's not shouted constantly in fascist manner really. Nothing even remotely comparable to the IoM's constant flouting of the Aquila.

Point 2: Yes. Unknown really, likely true (as for all 40k factions), but little specific on it. I'll just err on the side of caution.

Point 3: No: Definitly not true. The defining feature of Tau is rather their comparative openess about their "enemies". There's a passage in the TAu book on how they tried for ages to "befriend" and "ally" with Orks until they finally gave up. In the DE Codex, they approached DE openly initially. Tau are pretty much the anti-thesis of a "fascist-style" simplified vilification of "others".

Point 4: No: Not true. Firewarriors are not given a superior status over the other castes really, even though the military fire caste dominates the fluff as this is a "wargame". There is no indication of any overtly "glamorization" of military personal and "war heroes" really (as their is, for example, in the IoM's depiction of Space Marines).

Point 5: No: Probably not true. No indication in the fluff at least. At the very least, Shadowsun is a female general so women do not seem to be "reduced" to traditional, reproductive roles.

Point 6: Yes: Probably true. Not much information given, but I cannot really imagine a "free" Tau Media. So I'll go with it.

Point 7: No: Definitly not true. Quite the opposite. Unlike Governments that try to cower people by stoking fear of real or imagined threats to expand control in the form of "national security", Tau motivate/discipline their people with a "positive", if perhaps utopian vision/philosophy. No hint that they excessively spook on their own people (and why should they if Ethereals have near-perfect control).

Point 8: No: Not really. Seems far more the Imperial schtick in 40K who use the Imperial Faith and religious, faith-based rethoric (the Emperor protects) in politics.

Point 9: No: Not really. No indication that the Ethereals excert strong control over the business side of things (e.g. the Water Caste). Not more so than they do over all anyhow. And material profit seems low on their agenda.

Point 10: Yes (No?): Does not really apply. I'll just go with yes for the heck of it because any sort of Union-resistance would be futile against the "unresistable" authority of Ethereal either way.

Point 11: No: Most definitly no. Air caste is highly valued for their scientific achievements and more.

Point 12: No: No indication that this is the case. Draconian punishments and obsession with security seems, if anything, an Imperial schtick once again (Penal legions for one).

Point 13: No: Definitly not. Tau Empire is rather noted for how efficently it is run. Again, more a point made with the IoM by the writers.

Point 14: No: Not even close.

So out of 14 points commonly seen to definine fascism, at least 10 do not apply to the Tau. And of the 4 "yes" many I just ticked for erring on the side of caution in absence of information. And some highly typical features of fascist regimes, notably the "demonisation" and vilifaction of "others" to provide national unity and the obsession with "security" and a fear-based disciplining of the populace are notably absent.

Ergo.. Tau are not fascist by a long shot.

@ Zweischneid

Points well taken. While i did point out that they only used elements of Fascism. you've debunked it mostly.
Most of my points for Fascism could be used to promote theocracy, as most theocracies throughout the ages preached a "Join us or Die" mentality, had an incredible need to spread the influence of their religion. (See the crusades)

Would you agree then that they are a Fuedal Theocracy, with Ethereal and the greater good in place of the Clergy/nobility/religion?

Karnac wrote:@ Zweischneid

Points well taken. While i did point out that they only used elements of Fascism. you've debunked it mostly.
Most of my points for Fascism could be used to promote theocracy, as most theocracies throughout the ages preached a "Join us or Die" mentality, had an incredible need to spread the influence of their religion. (See the crusades)

Would you agree then that they are a Fuedal Theocracy, with Ethereal and the greater good in place of the Clergy/nobility/religion?

I would not disagree. It's probably not "wrong", especially the "feudal" part.

But it also leaves out some fairly constitutive elements. One, the Tau's use of commercial trade to tie allied races to themselves, which is partly linked to their "openness" to new inclusions. Greater Good as Asimov-easter-egg and the Tau Empire as a Foundation-style "back-up-empire" to "shorten" the chaotic, brutal interregnum of the predicted collapse of the dominating big "Galactic Empire" also get the short shrift. Another one is the "mystery" behind the "mysterious" Warp Storms that conveniently shielded the Tau from erradication by the IoM, shielded them through millennia of unexplained rapid technological evolution, the "mysterious" appearance of Ethereals in a "night full of strange lights". This whole sub-theme of "artificialness". Of having been "tinkered with".

I think ultimately, the iconic thing about the Tau isn't that they govern themselves in any form truly comparable to historic government. The iconic thing is that they aren't quite a "natural" race (or at least civilization) but the "project" of something or someone for reasons yet unkown. A gigantic effort of engineering an interstellar civilization of a yet unknown purpose; a massive experiment that make the Emperor's Primarch/Space Marine project look like a medicore junior high science club entry.

Zweischneid wrote:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Do this for sure. "The Greater Good" defines their entire culture.

Zweischneid wrote:
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Sterilization, brainwashing, and enslavement of captured populations.

Zweischneid wrote:
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Tau think only Tau can effectively rule the galaxy. Everyone else are incompetent children who can, at best, listen to Tau.

Zweischneid wrote:
4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Tau culture is 100% about the military. Nothing else matters except the military machine. Everything supports it.

Zweischneid wrote:
5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Ok, they don't have this one, but this is not relevant to fascism. Makes me think you just made these points up.

Zweischneid wrote:
6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

There is no media except what the party controls.

Zweischneid wrote:
7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Yes. Fear of all those bloodthirsty, barbarians, non-Tau.

Zweischneid wrote:
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

There is no distinction between religion and government for Tau. Their gods are their rulers.

Zweischneid wrote:
9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Ethereals are infallible.

Zweischneid wrote:
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

They beat this by unionizing the entire labor force under religion.

Zweischneid wrote:
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

They have no intellectuals or arts.

Zweischneid wrote:
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Tau voluntarily submit to no civil rights. They think it's for their own good.

Zweischneid wrote:
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

There are no promotions at all in Tau culture, so it hardly matters. No one moves socially.

Zweischneid wrote:
14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

They don't have elections, only Ethereals.

So Tau embody 13 of your 14 points.

Some of that fits, some is stuff you made up, some is stuff that hasn't been defined.

nomotog wrote:some is stuff you made up,

Feel free to enlighten the rest of the class.

You need to read the book before coming to class...

Out of all of the "playable" races described in 40k, the Tau Empire is far and away the LEAST focused on its military. Given that 40k is a game about war, the focus of the sourcebooks is understandable. But if you are looking for a DEFINING characteristic of the Tau Empire, Fascism isn't it. Particularly when you compare them to the Imperium, which was designed to be a super-fascist archetype.

Tau society is absolutely based around the idea of promotion. You have forgotten where all of those cute name suffixes come from? Every caste has its own leadership structure that is separate from the Ethereals. It is not all static. It is an absolute meritocracy. The only real caveat to this is that there is no lateral progression. You can only promote within your overall role in society. Which is the defining characteristic of a caste system, but a caste system is anathema to Communism and has nothing whatsoever to do with Fascism.

The point before about Imperial Japan made before was mostly right, but the Ethereals are not the Shogun. The "Shogun" would be the leaders of the Fire Caste and the Ethereals would be equivalent to the Emperor during times when the Shogunate was weaker. The Ethereals set overall policy, but they are not military commanders. They are a priestly sect that influences the direction the Empire as a whole takes, but they do not run the military. The critical point about the Ethereals is that they are very, very rare. A Tau may or may not be biologically compelled to obey, but in general they might go months or years without any direct leadership from the Ethereal Caste, particularly when deployed. Tau from other castes are perfectly capable of making their own decisions about what the Greater Good consists of without an Ethereal there in the room. Nor are the Ethereals likely to speak with a single voice. If you are looking for a mindless race following the whims of its overlords without question, Tyranids and Necrons have you covered.

Moreover, Tau do have artists and intellectuals. Both are going to mainly fall within the Earth caste with small amounts of crossover into the Water, Air, and Ethereal castes. This has been in the caste descriptions since the beginning. It is still utilitarian in that their work invariably serves the Tau culture directly, but the professions still exist.

There has never been anything in the background to suggest the Tau view all other species as barbarians or that they use fear of those species to motivate the masses. It just isn't there in the background. We know they are a bit squeamish about the Kroot, but no more than humans or Eldar would be.

The big problem with the Tau is that the general lack of background material has meant that people are comfortable making a lot of this stuff up. But when you look at what is actually there in the books, you are left with a culture that doesn't really correspond well to any real-world cultures. It is as alien in its own way as the Orks. But the Tau have never been balanced within the background by some sinister "dark side" like that of the Imperium or Eldar. They are balanced because their military is many orders of magnitude smaller than any of their opponents, with a side-balance of physical limitations and shorter lifespans.

In terms of the definition of Fascism, point 1 definitely applies to the Tau., although no more than any of the other factions. Point 8 applies, although again, not as well as it does to the Imperium. Point 6 might apply and it might not. But none of the other points apply to the Tau, in some cases because it just isn't a normal human society that you are considering.

ALL 14 POINTS apply much more to the Imperium in 40k than they do to the Tau.

I thought the tau might be fascist. You know because they are fanatically devoted to an ideal and things like that. After I looked up the definition, I realized they didn't quite fit. Honestly it might just be better to call the tau tauist, It's a lot of work trying to wedge them into government types and what do we get from it?

Sturmtruppen wrote:Let's get this straight: the Tau are not Communist.

Communism: classless stateless society.
Tau: Empire with a caste system.

Now go and hang your head in shame.

Well I studied a bit of Chinese history at university and theres actually a lot more asian vibe going on than people realise.

The state 'religion/moral philosophy' of the Chinese Empire was Confucianism which roughly believed that a sage called confucius had created a trully moral government that served the needs of the people provided that they obeyed their superiors. A ruler would treat the ruled as his own wife or children; being both fair and just in equal measure. To help this the rulers were trained by exams through stufying confucian classics to learn the morals of confucianism before becoming officials.

Simply put Confucian Sage=Etherial

and Tau Empire=Confucian China (only it actually worked )

This is easily noted in the completely submissive nature of Tau to the etherial caste whom they regard with total reverence. Its also notable that this is not a democracy since (as with the Confucian model) there would be no point with legitimate leaders who act with complete morality and disinterest to serve the people. The Tau accept that their leaders are the only ones suitable to govern their race and by extension everybody else in the galaxy.

It only works as a partial comparison since there are plenty of Western inspiration for what the Tau do with 19th century European colonialism and the civilizing mission but there are plenty of similarities to China. Particularly the notion of absolute and righteous obedience to the benevolent and enlightened ruling caste.

Also the word Tau is suspiciously close to Taoism which is a form of popular religion

edit-Just read above and somebody mentioned Japan. They were very close to the Confucian morality but differed significantly from it in that they didn't have a completely seperate 'caste' of Scholar-officials who ran everything but had Samurai which operated closer to medieval feudalism. So I think Tau are closer to China than they are Japan so far as Etherials go.

That makes sense to me. Partly because tau culture/government always felt rather old.

nomotog wrote:That makes sense to me. Partly because tau culture/government always felt rather old.

Actually i read several books in my Uni Library that suggested that Mao took a lot of inspiration from the Confucian classics (the Empire only fell in 1912 ) and that his brand of Communism always had a stronger sense of traditional china about it; cultural revolution not withstanding. For example he got a lot of military inspiration from Sun Tsu's The Art of War.

So there might be something in the communism reference.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Feel free to enlighten the rest of the class.

Most of it, actually, is fictional. If you look into what Fascism is (and try to find a definition on any site who's purpose isn't attacking fascism) you won't get most of this. I'd think anyone around the age of five would see a politically motivated attempt here.

Is communist offensive? I wouldn't stress out about it, they are just anti American so they're communist socialist fascist Muslims. Coming from a socialist who lives in the south, it could be worse. Your army could be called furries on tg all the time...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, calling them communists is an attempt to demonize what was once considered an all around "good" army. They drew comparisons to Soviet Russia and the iron curtain and all of a sudden, whatever the Tau were fighting for didn't look too promising.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Do this for sure. "The Greater Good" defines their entire culture.

Doesn't really equate to a constant, ubiquitous display of the Imperial Faith, or of "real" fascist nations constant display and reverence of flags and other national symbols. By its very nature as a philosphy (perhaps most akin to today's Bhutan's pursuit of "national happyness"; rather than symbolism of the nation. And as being a "future-oriented" vision, rather than a adoration of the current nation, it doesn't fit at all.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Sterilization, brainwashing, and enslavement of captured populations.

I acknowledged that Tau do alot of that (but than again, no more than any other 40K faction. So at least in 40K comparative perspective, they don't really stick out there).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tau think only Tau can effectively rule the galaxy. Everyone else are incompetent children who can, at best, listen to Tau.

That is not the same. And I'd like to see a reference for that "everyone else are incompetent children. As seen in the Tau Codex (p. 6) and the DE Codex, they approached even Orks and Dark Eldar with realtive openess and friendliness. Both cases where a more aggressive initial approach might have been warranted. This is pretty much the anti-thesis of fascism as prominently displayed, notably, the IoM which goes to great lenghts to "vilify" and "de-humanize" the Xenos, the Heretic, the Witch, whatever in their propaganda. Within the existing Tau fluff, they don't even mention degradory slurs or simplified black/white vilifications of others.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tau culture is 100% about the military. Nothing else matters except the military machine. Everything supports it.

Again wrong. The Codex is very specific that the Tau only succeeded when "each caste's talents" fully unfolded and allowed to add to Tau prosperity through synergy. It's actually one of the key aspects of "the Greater Good" philosophy that ALL parts are needed and necessary. The military/fire caste is but one piece of the puzzle and ending their aggressive domination over others was one of the things the Ethereals did away with.

DarknessEternal wrote:
Ok, they don't have this one, but this is not relevant to fascism. Makes me think you just made these points up.

It is based on comparative analysis of all fascist ideologies. They all have it. Hitler Germany gave out "awards" for Mothers who bore many children. Some of the more extreme Asian regimes went as far as seperate children from families that failed to fully comply with their backwards view of what "tradiitonal family" should look like and had them raised by "model" families. Traditional "family" roles and backwardish gender-relations are very much the cornerstone of all fascist regimes. Likewise the prosecution of gays and similar oppressive measures that fascist's claim go against "the Volk" or, the reproductive prosperity of the nation, whatever.

DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no media except what the party controls.

There is no reference in the Tau Codex or any other fluff. If you make such a claim, I would again like to see a reference. There might well be "independent" Water- or Air-Caste Radio, TV, whatever. As noted, I also gave this a yes to err on the side of caution, but ultimately, we simple do not know.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Yes. Fear of all those bloodthirsty, barbarians, non-Tau.

Again, a reference would be welcome. Given the mentioned Ork, DE, but also Kroot, etc. episodes, as well as the lack of any text-line ever that would have the Tau disparage other races, this statement of yours seems to fly into the face of the actually given fluff. Once again, if there is one thing that differentiates the Tau from ALL other 40K factions, it is the fact that they are arguably the only ones that do not do this.

DarknessEternal wrote:
There is no distinction between religion and government for Tau. Their gods are their rulers.

True. As they are with Chaos, the IoM, the Eldar, etc.. . Given that it's a setting where the Gods are "real", this happens. Still, the "religious" rhetoric is notably more subdued with the Tau than the Imperial "The Emperor Protects" or "Burn the Witch" or whathaveyou

DarknessEternal wrote:
Ethereals are infallible.

Not sure what that has to do with control of corporate power. The Pope in the Vatican is also considered infallible. But he still does not exercise active protectionism over the economy, or was elevated to his rule by a power-coalition of economic power.

DarknessEternal wrote:
They beat this by unionizing the entire labor force under religion.

????? What? I don't even understand what you are saying there. Again, I ruled this a yes due to lack of information. But frankly, if a prosperous Water Caste trader in a border-world has his employees go on strike, I don't really see Ethereals intervening much. Such mundane, economic concerns are likely below their interest.

DarknessEternal wrote:

They have no intellectuals or arts.

Wrong. Page 9 of the Tau Codex specifically mentions the propensity of Earth Caste for going beyond "technical" functioanlity to produce astonishing works of design and craftsmanship. Air Caste science is also pointed out several times, and rapid scientifc progress and achievements are a defining aspect of the Tau. Did you ever even read the Codex?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Tau voluntarily submit to no civil rights. They think it's for their own good.

Reference? They all answer unthnkinging to Ethereals, a given. But that is also because Ethereals are an "unnatural" addition whose "mind-control" abilites are not fully explained. Again, Water Caste is briefly noted to also put forward judges and arbitrators (p. 6). So there must be something to judge and arbitrate about that isn't decided ex-machina by Ethereal decree.

But as said, I also ruled this a yes out of lack of information. But you seem to have an exaggerated view that I can find no confirmation for in the book.

DarknessEternal wrote:

There are no promotions at all in Tau culture, so it hardly matters. No one moves socially.

Outside their castes? No. Though Fire Castes are noted to either make astonishing careers to become famed commanders. Or they don't. Either way, I am not sure what corruption has to do with career. GW products go to some lenght to point out that the Imperium of Man is largely "corrupt". The term is not used in the Tau Codex at all, which makes a point to highlight the efficiency and cleanness of the entire thing.

DarknessEternal wrote:

They don't have elections, only Ethereals.

Which is why feudalism (and others) is such a far better fit than fascism.

khanaris wrote:You need to read the book before coming to class...

Out of all of the "playable" races described in 40k, the Tau Empire is far and away the LEAST focused on its military. Given that 40k is a game about war, the focus of the sourcebooks is understandable. But if you are looking for a DEFINING characteristic of the Tau Empire, Fascism isn't it. Particularly when you compare them to the Imperium, which was designed to be a super-fascist archetype.

Tau society is absolutely based around the idea of promotion. You have forgotten where all of those cute name suffixes come from? Every caste has its own leadership structure that is separate from the Ethereals. It is not all static. It is an absolute meritocracy. The only real caveat to this is that there is no lateral progression. You can only promote within your overall role in society. Which is the defining characteristic of a caste system, but a caste system is anathema to Communism and has nothing whatsoever to do with Fascism.

The point before about Imperial Japan made before was mostly right, but the Ethereals are not the Shogun. The "Shogun" would be the leaders of the Fire Caste and the Ethereals would be equivalent to the Emperor during times when the Shogunate was weaker. The Ethereals set overall policy, but they are not military commanders. They are a priestly sect that influences the direction the Empire as a whole takes, but they do not run the military. The critical point about the Ethereals is that they are very, very rare. A Tau may or may not be biologically compelled to obey, but in general they might go months or years without any direct leadership from the Ethereal Caste, particularly when deployed. Tau from other castes are perfectly capable of making their own decisions about what the Greater Good consists of without an Ethereal there in the room. Nor are the Ethereals likely to speak with a single voice. If you are looking for a mindless race following the whims of its overlords without question, Tyranids and Necrons have you covered.

Moreover, Tau do have artists and intellectuals. Both are going to mainly fall within the Earth caste with small amounts of crossover into the Water, Air, and Ethereal castes. This has been in the caste descriptions since the beginning. It is still utilitarian in that their work invariably serves the Tau culture directly, but the professions still exist.

There has never been anything in the background to suggest the Tau view all other species as barbarians or that they use fear of those species to motivate the masses. It just isn't there in the background. We know they are a bit squeamish about the Kroot, but no more than humans or Eldar would be.

The big problem with the Tau is that the general lack of background material has meant that people are comfortable making a lot of this stuff up. But when you look at what is actually there in the books, you are left with a culture that doesn't really correspond well to any real-world cultures. It is as alien in its own way as the Orks. But the Tau have never been balanced within the background by some sinister "dark side" like that of the Imperium or Eldar. They are balanced because their military is many orders of magnitude smaller than any of their opponents, with a side-balance of physical limitations and shorter lifespans.

In terms of the definition of Fascism, point 1 definitely applies to the Tau., although no more than any of the other factions. Point 8 applies, although again, not as well as it does to the Imperium. Point 6 might apply and it might not. But none of the other points apply to the Tau, in some cases because it just isn't a normal human society that you are considering.

ALL 14 POINTS apply much more to the Imperium in 40k than they do to the Tau.

A: I will exalt this because it takes my standpoint

B: The tau have a very deep respect for the kroot. Maybe allittle disgusted by their flesh eating habits. But the imperium would directly purge them, the eldar would insult them call them stupid and just ignore them. But the tau they believe that trough coexisting the kroot will learn to behave like the tau so the respect is actually way larger.