So judging by the white dwarf theres a few things I would like to get peeps opinions on:

1) The new Karl Franz rules
2) The new "HOLD ZE LINE!!!!" rule
3) The huntsmaster
4) the new models

Personally I love the new models, and the new Karl Franz rules makes me really consider taking him if he drops below 500 points, especially the 24" LD10 bubble :O

The new hold the line rule sounds ace, I will be definately throwing a couple of naked captains in my units just for that rule alone!

The huntsmaster could quite possibly be one of the best characters out there if he has what I think will be Heroic killing blow. Wether or not he is worth taking in a unit of huntsmen or not is another question as this may add up to expensiveoclock.

Any thoughts?

The new models are nice.

Don't really know enough about the rules - though I notice there is the usual doom and gloom merchants playing their trade on the various speculations. It looks as if there will be a number of options, like with the other 8th ed books, which can only be a good thing.

Hold the line is a new rule which empire captains and generals have. The unit with them in take break tests on 3d6 and pick the two lowest!

Deathbysoup wrote:Hold the line is a new rule which empire captains and generals have. The unit with them in take break tests on 3d6 and pick the two lowest!

I saw that in White Dwarf. The Withchunter looks quite good too.

But it's a bit difficult to know how well the rules will work until the book comes out, and then see how it is playing out 6 months down the road.

I am liking the nerf to Mortars. Str2 large blast

Demigryphs look like a killer unit. Str5 armor piercing attacks with a 1+ armor save(and Str4 from the rider)

theyve nerfed mortars to strength 2? thats madness. There goes my battle plan!! Might have to invest in a rocket battery or two now!

Yeah Demigryphs look ace, you can make em str 5 with cav halberd too!

Flaggies are sepcial choices now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And waralter is Stubborn

Empire has left me cold up till now. Before it looked too much like a historical games. Now, I am really liking the emphasis on the fantastic, although the huge Laser-thingy is a bit OTT.

Makes me wonder what they might do with Bretonnians, another army that are just too "real life" for my liking...

Demigryphs look nice mounts for the mounts and help distinguish them from the Bretonian knights more. I like the 3 new mounts for the wizards and it makes me wonder if the other 5 lores will eventually get something cool to ride on too (haven't seen the book so don't know if they already have).

With Karl Franz unless there is a huge difference in points I'm struggling to see why you'd ever take the runefang over the hammer since going off the WD rules the hammer does everything the sword does and then a bit more.

What does the wit hunter shape up like?

coinbiter wrote:With Karl Franz unless there is a huge difference in points I'm struggling to see why you'd ever take the runefang over the hammer since going off the WD rules the hammer does everything the sword does and then a bit more.

As it's always been-previous hammer auto wounded with no armor saves, same as a Runefang, BUT each wound multiplied to D3. I'm sure it's about the same.

Also, in the other Empire thread I said I was bummed about the state troop costs going up-time to amend: with the Captain/General rules of 'Hold the Line,' upping the cost is actually appropriate. And, Empire will be the 1+ armor save spam army now-with Full-plate armor, enchanted shields, ponies, AoMI and the 1+ (might be 2+, I forgot) armor from the rulebook, we've got lots of possibilities for 1+ armor saves. People are commenting on it being Tyranid level, I think we're looking at Tomb King level-we can have Greatswords STUBBORN with 3 dice, choose the two lowest. Um...yes please? Go ahead, break that unit. I dare you. And special Flagellants, probably a unit available as core with a WP in there? I think this new book has possibilities-it just won't be 'point and click' like IG. Cruddance's fantasy work looks to be a lot better than his 40k stuff. If Empire is on equal footing to TK, then I'm a fan of Cruddance in the fantasy world. Court is still out for my views on his 40k work.

I agree, alot of stuff seems to have been nerfed, however I do believe we needed it. T10 10W 1+ armour save steam tank was a bit ridiculous. And I had a 2000pts army that could potentially get 7 dispel dice extra...

I think the focus has changed a little bit on the army, so I will probably end up having to buy a load of new models. Definately getting in on the lazor action though!

A little bummed by the nerf to the mortar since its now weaker AND more expensive. But I guess it will make me change how I play.

Oh and I am STILL keeping my greatsword horde as that thing ROCKS!

I am turning my back on my empire personally. It is too big of a change of the list I used to run. And I found the Steamtank to be balanced as it was.

Havent read much of the rules other than in the white dwarf.

The models are sick.

I want a death ray and a big bird and I play chaos so thats gotta tell ya something.

Also demigriff knights look pretty angry.

I was kind of skeptical at first but I suppose I can live with it.

Still stinks of Cruddace though. You're telling me that a weapon designed to fling shrapnel at an enemy (Mortar) has less strength than a rock? Whatever Cruddace is smoking, I'd like a hit or two.

Overall though I don't think the changes were so significant that the army is completely different now. I'll probably end up picking up Empire at some point.

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:What does the wit hunter shape up like?

sniper, killing blow... maybe some other stuff.

Johnny-Crass wrote:I am turning my back on my empire personally. It is too big of a change of the list I used to run.

Might agree, I'm going to see how the book turns out first.

If mortars really did get a cost increase and are now S2, that is going to seriously dent their effectiveness.

I'm also not a big fan of the change to more fantastic Empire.

So for someone who will not ever buy a white dwarf and has played empire for a long time can someone be kind and give me a lowdown on the changes?

biccat wrote:If mortars really did get a cost increase and are now S2, that is going to seriously dent their effectiveness.

Praise be! IMO the current mortars under 8th have been just about broken, not least because I run a T3 infantry army. And apparently warrior priests have lost the additional dispel dice nonsense? Really those were the only two things I wanted fixed in the new book, looks like I got my wish

Still extremely interested to see what the biggerized griffon is packing, but looks like beyond 'bloodroar' on Deathclaw (and perhaps his lesser brothers), they've mostly just got flying, terror, "loyal beast" (monster reaction modifier?), large target and decent stats:

M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6 5 0 6 5 5 4 4 7

Not seeing a ton of survivability ... Wonder what the two-headed one's packing?

- Salvage

The Steamtank mods were the nail in the coffin for me. As a tournament player I will still follow the book and see how it folds out but I just got rid of half my Empire.

cowpow16 wrote:
I want a death ray and a big bird and I play chaos so thats gotta tell ya something.

It tells me that you're either a mad scientist or a super villain.


Or both.

Deathbysoup wrote:Hold the line is a new rule which empire captains and generals have. The unit with them in take break tests on 3d6 and pick the two lowest!

Ah. So now the people of the empire are part Lizardmen and have the Cold-blooded rule. Good way to make all the armies disticnt and have their own feel.

I dislike the move to create a more fantasical Empire. I sure hope the eventual Bretonnian book is not given the same treatment.

walledin wrote:I dislike the move to create a more fantasical Empire. I sure hope the eventual Bretonnian book is not given the same treatment.

Bretonnia used to have a Dragon... If my forsight is correct I see it returning on a 100x150

Johnny-Crass wrote:The Steamtank mods were the nail in the coffin for me. As a tournament player I will still follow the book and see how it folds out but I just got rid of half my Empire.

While taking your point on board, it was a bit silly to see a stank in every army, given the fluff.

Boss Salvage wrote:Praise be! IMO the current mortars under 8th have been just about broken, not least because I run a T3 infantry army. And apparently warrior priests have lost the additional dispel dice nonsense? Really those were the only two things I wanted fixed in the new book, looks like I got my wish

Mortars were the only non-magical thing Empire has to deal with large blocks of infantry. There aren't enough heavy hitters in the Empire book to deal with enemy blocks. Maybe that will change with the Demigryph knights, but I'm not too optimistic.

Expect to start seeing a lot of Shadow and Death wizards in the future.

marielle wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:The Steamtank mods were the nail in the coffin for me. As a tournament player I will still follow the book and see how it folds out but I just got rid of half my Empire.

While taking your point on board, it was a bit silly to see a stank in every army, given the fluff.

I always viewed Steamtanks like the towns harlot. She gets around alot and makes you feel great and dirty at the same time

biccat wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:Praise be! IMO the current mortars under 8th have been just about broken, not least because I run a T3 infantry army. And apparently warrior priests have lost the additional dispel dice nonsense? Really those were the only two things I wanted fixed in the new book, looks like I got my wish

Mortars were the only non-magical thing Empire has to deal with large blocks of infantry. There aren't enough heavy hitters in the Empire book to deal with enemy blocks. Maybe that will change with the Demigryph knights, but I'm not too optimistic.

Expect to start seeing a lot of Shadow and Death wizards in the future.

I think that the supposed 3 templates per shot rockets will fill the niche mortars did.

Platuan4th wrote:I think that the supposed 3 templates per shot rockets will fill the niche mortars did.

Makes sense. Nobody really fields the HSRB in the current book, so it makes sense that it will be the new must-have piece of artillery.

I used to field two of the buggers and two helblasters with 5 engineers. That was a fun list

biccat wrote:Expect to start seeing a lot of Shadow and Death wizards in the future.

... because we don't already?

But point taken: Empire used to be about the only army with access to Shadow that didn't take it every game. After this week, perhaps they'll be joining the club as well.

- Salvage, Member of the Ban Shadow Magic Movement

biccat wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:Praise be! IMO the current mortars under 8th have been just about broken, not least because I run a T3 infantry army. And apparently warrior priests have lost the additional dispel dice nonsense? Really those were the only two things I wanted fixed in the new book, looks like I got my wish

Mortars were the only non-magical thing Empire has to deal with large blocks of infantry. There aren't enough heavy hitters in the Empire book to deal with enemy blocks. Maybe that will change with the Demigryph knights, but I'm not too optimistic.

Expect to start seeing a lot of Shadow and Death wizards in the future.

Awww, the Empire has to settle for mortars AND magic. And Volley Guns. And now 3 S5 attack, 1+ save Demigryphs. In the meantime, Dwarves don't have the magic, the elves don't have the mortars or volley guns, and neither have anything comparable to the Demigryphs. Clearly the empire needs moar toyz!

EDIT: I'm wondering about the vast silence around the new cannon rules. After all, OGRE cannons get a reroll on the bounce roll; I would imagine the trained gunners of the Empire should be able to do at least as well as some ignorant Ogres in gunnery...

And that would make an Empire gunline even more scary.

ogres get the better of 2 bounce rolls because they load the cannon up with multiple cannonballs(its a big gun)

I could see it being an Engineer ability though.

Grey Templar wrote:ogres get the better of 2 bounce rolls because they load the cannon up with multiple cannonballs(its a big gun)

I could see it being an Engineer ability though.

And because they are using cannons forged by giants.

Extremely intelligent, and tasty, Giants called Sky Titans.

Deathbysoup wrote:Hold the line is a new rule which empire captains and generals have. The unit with them in take break tests on 3d6 and pick the two lowest!

Must be because, with Steadfast, units were just too darn easy to break *smh*

Grey Templar wrote:Extremely intelligent, and tasty, Giants called Sky Titans.

nom, nom... Huh, Huh... *belch*

I love the new magic college alters. The planetarium looks interesting, I might get it and make it part the roof of the watch tower.

As for Karl Franz, Deathclaw is a little too big, I was hoping a griffon would be smaller, like smaller than a dragon and on a square monster base. I wanted a griffon for an Abysmal Terror.

Lastly I love the Van Helsing witch hunter, I'm getting one no matter what.

I think the rumored rules changes are pretty poopy sounding across the board.

State Troops are barely worth it right now at 5pts. I painted 50 Halberdiers and I'm always underwhelmed by their performance. Still, at 270pts, they don't exactly break the bank.

But what if they are going to cost 330pts in the new book (assuming 6pts per model and 10pt command guys?)

60pts can go a long way in the current Empire book.

The Mortar needed a nerf. I predicted they were going to move Ro rare and jump to 100pts. I would be fine with that. But dropping the Str and jumping to 100pts?

Doesn't the Skaven catapult do the same thing but ignore armour as well? Who cares if the Mortar stays as a Special choice at that point?

Steam tank sounds like junk at T6, but will wait to see the exact rules. Currently it's biggest problem (besides initiative tests) is getting wounded once or twice and doing little for the rest of the game (assuming no Life magic.) If it can still function decently after getting wounded, it might be playable.

Frankly, I'm unimpressed by the Hold the Line rule. Most units should be Stubborn/Steadfast 9 with a BSB re-roll anyway. It will only maybe help you in dicey situations when the combats get close, and generally you want to avoid those combats anyway.

Witch Hunter sounds pretty useless in competitive play. Will have to see his points to make a final decision.

Nice to see Huntsmen cost a little less, even if they are Special. Hopefullly he meant Huntsmen and not Archers.

Overall, sounds very grim, but will wait to see what the book actually says this Saturday.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote: Abysmal Terror..

Handgunners are now priced out of competitive play IMO as is the majority of Empire core besides the Halberd.... Wait something sounds familiar

Clarence wrote:Doesn't the Skaven catapult do the same thing but ignore armour as well?

I thought of this comparison last night, and you are correct on the plagueclaw being large blast S2 no armor save for the same points. Thing is, is the mortar still S6 D3 wounds under the center? Gives it a leg up in versatility, vs the catapult, which wounds everything once on 5 or 6+, somewhat limiting its targets and ability to make back points. The real rub though is the misfire charts: the mortar has the normal stone thrower one (right?), while the catapult has its rather horrific one that involves the enemy placing the huge, T3 melting template over skaven. If there is only one thing in the game the PCC is good at killing, it's skaven

(We might also keep in mind that the PCC is crewed by three plague monks, so has 6 S3 attaks and is T4 in combat, but that's something of a moot point.)

If I'm honest with myself, I would have been fine with the mortar becoming Rare and costing 120+ points. The S2 is a bit much even by my (rather vengeful) standards.

- Salvage

Boss Salvage wrote:

Clarence wrote:Doesn't the Skaven catapult do the same thing but ignore armour as well?

I thought of this comparison last night, and you are correct on the plagueclaw being large blast S2 no armor save for the same points. Thing is, is the mortar still S6 D3 wounds under the center? Gives it a leg up in versatility, vs the catapult, which wounds everything once on 5 or 6+, somewhat limiting its targets and ability to make back points. The real rub though is the misfire charts: the mortar has the normal stone thrower one (right?), while the catapult has its rather horrific one that involves the enemy placing the huge, T3 melting template over skaven. If there is only one thing in the game the PCC is good at killing, it's skaven

(We might also keep in mind that the PCC is crewed by three plague monks, so has 6 S3 attaks and is T4 in combat, but that's something of a moot point.)

3 S3 Attacks, the PCC doesn't have Frenzy.

Also, general consensus on the PCC is that it's overcosted for what it does, especially since it's not very good at its primary use(against low T, high AS units) especially when compared to its 90 point competition(WLC).

Platuan4th wrote:3 S3 Attacks, the PCC doesn't have Frenzy.

Nope, 'tis indeed frenzied. It simply cannot charge, like any other war machine:

Skaven FAQ wrote:Page 47 – Plagueclaw Catapult, Fume-addled Crew
Change to “The crew of the Plagueclaw Catapult have the
Frenzy special rule. Add +1 to the number of attacks received
for each crew model as long as they are Frenzied. ”

But no denying that the PCC isn't worth taking. Mine saw the table ~5 times before being permanently retired - like you say, it's not even good at what it's supposed to do

- Salvage

Which is why the mortar is now pretty useless (if the rumours are true.)

My biggest problem with the new book is that, as is, my army literally goes up by ~100pts and generally gets weaker. My current build:

Foot Archlector (-25pts)
Wizard Lord (-10pts)
Captain BSB (+10pts)
Engineer (same?)
50 Halberdiers (+60pts)
10 Handgunners (+10pts)
15 Crossbows (same?)
10 Archers (-10pts)
2 Cannons (+40pts)
2 Mortars (+50pts)
38 Greatswords (+38pts)
Stank (-50pts)

Overall +113pts (not taking new magic items into account)

I don't feel like I built a ridiculous army. When I place it on the table, it looks like an Empire army. But under the rumoured changes, most of my stuff gets more expensive for no good reason, and it genreally gets worse too!

They want you to move away from the old Empire standbys and buy a whole lot of Demigryphs, the only thing in the book that seems to be OTT. 3 S5 AP attacks... for the mount? Yikes!

Engineers FTW with a Hellblaster. BS4 with a re-roll on an artillery dice to determine number of shots, all new misfire system that actually doesn't just say "Roll a dice, remove Hellblaster".

Steam tank is still awesome. Yes it is T6 now but it is now considered a chariot meaning the engineers I is used now for tests. New steam point generation is better and the cannon being upgraded to a full cannon means you get the rest of the steam tank fora mere 130pts. Let's not forget the cannon on it can be used in combat as a breath weapon each turn with a strength modifiable with steam points.

Just as an example, here's what i'm going to be running at 2k...

Wizard Lord, Lv4, magic stuff
Engineer
Engineer

40 Spearmen + Command
20 handgunners
20 handgunners

6 Demigryphs
Cannon

Steam tank
Hellblaster
Hellblaster.

I don't have a ton of rank and file but the stank is just a house and the demigryph will just soak fire. Really considering using Life on the Lv4 too as it really helps negate all the weaknesses of the stank and demigryphs.

I was very disappointed to see the cost of state troops go up - this is a nerf aimed at people who had balanced lists of core units. GW is obviously trying to sell a bunch of $31 per model cav units and fancy war altar spin-offs

Steam tank is disgusting, it can dish out 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d3 impact hits at str 6! OMG!!!

karlosovic wrote:I was very disappointed to see the cost of state troops go up - this is a nerf aimed at people who had balanced lists of core units. GW is obviously trying to sell a bunch of $31 per model cav units and fancy war altar spin-offs

Actually, they just made state troops a better value for the money, so I doubt the change was profit motivated.

Looking over the new book is exciting, base troops went up in points, but detatchments got much better and they now count towards your core if you buy them for core regiments. As people have pointed out, the hellblaster is awesome. As a high elf player, the mortar still terrifies me. A couple of well placed shots from that will annihilate my swordmasters, spearmen, and lothern sea gaurd. I'm sorry, but when one attack can get 30+ hits, it seems appropriate to wound on fives.

Certainly "The one list" has changed and does not work as well, but I think the army is hugely viable in a lot of ways, and overall very thematic and fun. The one game I've seen played by our resident powergamer at my flgs he said he was loving it, that the new empire is fantastic.

Hows their gatling cannon artillery thing doing? I love its model so much, I hope (pray) its better with the new book. Anyone know?

Ignus wrote:

karlosovic wrote:I was very disappointed to see the cost of state troops go up - this is a nerf aimed at people who had balanced lists of core units. GW is obviously trying to sell a bunch of $31 per model cav units and fancy war altar spin-offs

Actually, they just made state troops a better value for the money, so I doubt the change was profit motivated.

Looking over the new book is exciting, base troops went up in points, but detatchments got much better and they now count towards your core if you buy them for core regiments. As people have pointed out, the hellblaster is awesome. As a high elf player, the mortar still terrifies me. A couple of well placed shots from that will annihilate my swordmasters, spearmen, and lothern sea gaurd. I'm sorry, but when one attack can get 30+ hits, it seems appropriate to wound on fives.

Certainly "The one list" has changed and does not work as well, but I think the army is hugely viable in a lot of ways, and overall very thematic and fun. The one game I've seen played by our resident powergamer at my flgs he said he was loving it, that the new empire is fantastic.

The more i read the book, the more I'm considering at least a partial retraction. Looks like we might have to play a little bit differently, but all is *not* actually lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just noticed an error in the book.
p70 shows "An Amber Wizard on a two-headed Imperial Griffon" - except a wizard can only be mounted on a Griffon if he's Lore of Beasts.

On a positive note - pretty much all the special characters are substantially cheaper than they used to be, and so are Warrior Priests and Arch Lectors. Archers/Huntsmen and Knights are also cheaper (although everything else obviously went up)

karlosovic wrote:
Just noticed an error in the book.
p70 shows "An Amber Wizard on a two-headed Imperial Griffon" - except a wizard can only be mounted on a Griffon if he's Lore of Beasts.

Reading the fluff in my 7th ed empire book shows that the magicians of the lore of beasts are known as the amber order.

VikingScott wrote:

karlosovic wrote:
Just noticed an error in the book.
p70 shows "An Amber Wizard on a two-headed Imperial Griffon" - except a wizard can only be mounted on a Griffon if he's Lore of Beasts.

Reading the fluff in my 7th ed empire book shows that the magicians of the lore of beasts are known as the amber order.

What he said.

"The Lore of Beasts is associated with Ghur, the brown wind of magic, which is the coalescence of bestial spirit, the predator and the prey. It flows around the wild, untamed places, where the touch of civilisation has not yet been felt. It is a savage wind, as unreasoning as it is devoid of malice. Amber wizards are often called 'shamans' and are rarely found in cities or other outposts of civilisation."

So, my thoughts on the new rules;

Detachments - They still haven't really fixed this, if anything they broke it slightly worse. While passing on psychology type rules from the parent to the detachment is nice, they now fill a purely defensive role since supporting charge was removed. Worse, the counter charge is now resolved using the normal rules for charging, which means no automatic flank, and a good possiblity if your opponent positions his charge right, that you cant even complete a legal charge against the enemy. They also *still* haven't fixed the problem of the enemy simply charging and wiping out the detachment, rather than charging the parent. While you could theoretically use sufficiently large detachements that they cant be wiped out in a single round of combat, it means taking very large parent units and the points really start to add up. Worse, the whole thing becomes incredibly unwieldy on the tabletop. Verdict: Bad

General/Captain - Hold the Line seems like a rule that really wasn't needed, since when did steadfast on LD9 or 10 with a BSB re-roll really have any significant problems holding? The stat lines for Generals and Captains are still bad in terms of combat capability, and now they're more expensive than before for no good reason I can think of. Also, the Imperial Griffon despite a points drop and a slight stat increase is still bad. T5, 5W with absolutely no save at all is still going to get stabbed to death, and cannons still make ridden monsters a great way to get a character and expensive mount killed. Verdict: Bad

Wizards - Hey, they got cheaper. Neat. You can put an Amber Wizard on a Griffon... but why would you ever do that, on so many different levels? I thought Dragon Mages had allready shown people why putting a caster on a fighty monster was a terrible idea? Similarly, I cant see that putting a Light or Celestial wizard on their respective pimp wagons is a great idea, better off hiding them somewhere they'd actually be hard to get to. Still, cheaper wizard lords is a good thing. Verdcit: Good

Arch Lectors/Priests - Well, they lost the bonus dispel dice. Is anyone really surprised by this? It was needed to be honest, our ability to completely shut down a magic phase was just too strong. So what do they get instead? Well, for one thing they got cheaper which is nice. Still give out hatred, though still not to other characters for, which I never really understood but okay. New prayers are not remains in play, which is a mixed blessing. Plus side, you get 2 rounds of combat with the buff if you get it off. Down side, you cant spam a bunch of them early and force your opponent to spend power dice dispelling them. Power level 3 makes them pretty easy to cast, though 1 dice is still risky since a 1 or 2 means no more prayers for that guy. Being able to cast up to 3 per Lector/Priest is nice. Re-rolls to wound looks pretty neat, as does a 5+ ward for the unit. Soulfire seems more situational. Useful vs regenerating things or assaulting into a building (watchtower!), but the damage component is pretty pointless. The big rub is that since you have no caster level to add, they're easy to stop. So dont count on actually using these to swing a crucial combat, your opponent will save dice for any warrior priest or lector who's unit is fighting. There's also a real chance that the priests will get stabbed to death once they're in combat, since they dont exactly have a jaw dropping stat line, and kitting them out with good defensive options gets pretty expensive, particularly if you plan to take alot of them. Verdict: Average

War Altar - I figure I'll cover this seperate. So, it lost unbreakable but gained stubborn. Not so bad. Losing the entire lore of light, and just gaining banishment as a bound spell is a significant nerf however, I cant see the bound spell getting much use, especially since you'll need to pour power dice into prayers to try and make your troops less terrible. The 4+ ward being chariot only however, now that is a big hit. Making a good tarpit out of a Lector on the Altar just got significantly harder to acchieve, especially combined with the changes to the Empire magic items. Getting a 1+ re-roll armour save and a 4+ ward is going to be very very pricy, especially with the points hike on the altar itself. Seems that it's days as a tarpit are likely over, and there's not much point charging it into combat for any other reason, since Arch Lectors are terrible at actually fighting, so it'll be relegated to playing buff-mobile with AoE prayers and hatred. On the plus side, that means you can skimp on magic items for the lector to offset the points increase of the altar. As far as generals go, it's still really the only game in town. Verdict: Good

Grand Master - Got a points increase... and has to pay extra for a shield now? Not sure what Cruddace was thinking here, it's not like they were a good choice before, and they're still not a good choice now. They're bad at fighting, much like all Empire characters, and only really do anything for cavalry, which are pretty mediocre in 8th.

Marius Leitdorf - I dont normally comment on special characters, since they're often pretty pointless, but I had to comment on this guy. He's a General, with full plate, on a barded warhorse, holding a runefang. Only he's mad, and so might do nothing. And costs more than just buying a general, and putting him on a barded warhorse with full plate and a runefang. He gets +1 WS I guess? Wierd.

Markus Wulfhart - Another special I thought I'd comment on. He tries to hunt monsters, with a bow. And he costs more than a cannon. Which... kills monsters more reliably. I have NO idea why you would take this guy for anything other than fluff.

Master Engineer - He can give his BS and a single artillery dice re-roll to a war machine within 3". Cool! I have to decide before firing any war machines which one he uses his ability on. Wait, what? I have to be psychic to use this guy as anything other than a very expensive upgrade for a war machine. Hmm. Verdict: Below Average

Witch Hunter - I'll just go ahead and say it. He's bad at fighting, he's so fragile it's not even funny, and the chances of scoring a KB with shooting are miniscule. Take one for a laugh, but dont expect them to actually kill anything. Verdict: Below Average

Core Troops - Swordsmen get a nerf in the shape of a drop in initiative, everything gets more expensive except spearmen, who were bad anyway. The most perplexing points increase is Free Company. Why on earth would I pay that much for a S3, T3 guy with no armour at all, who's only redeeming feature is an extra hand weapon? Oh cool! My front rank get an extra crappy S3 attack! Knights drop a point... but it's still 8th edition, and heavy cavalry are still sub-par. Archers did get a point cheaper, but they're still awful so whatever. To sum this up, our troops got more expensive, but absolutely no better at fighting. (And in the case of swordsmen, actually got slightly worse at fighting). The only thing Empire troops really had going for them was weight of numbers, and now we get fewer of them. Verdict: Bad

Greatswords - Didn't change at all, got more expensive. I'll be honest and say now that I've never really liked greatswords, allways strikes last is a bitch, and being S3 base means they aren't even killing T4 troops on 2+. They're T3 so take ALOT of wounds, and that 4+ save really doesn't help them much. Sure they're stubborn, but Halberdiers at half the price do just as good a job tarpitting by being steadfast, and are almost as good at killing stuff. So now they're more expensive, I still dont think they're a good unit. Verdict: Bad

Demigryph Knights - Ah yes, the Chokobo riders. While I cant really put an exact point cost here, I'll say that what they do cost is too damned much for T3 monstrous cav. They cant break steadfast, and lack the killing power to grind big infantry units down in anything approaching a reasonable timeframe, and they lack the numbers to absorb casualties. And at T3, they WILL take casualties, even with that 1+ armour save. Very vulnerable to war machines and magic, as well as being tar-pitted by cheap throw-away units they cant break. If you can get them unmolested into a flank when you have the unit pinned with a big infantry block they might do some good, but that's true of almost any unit. The Chokobo is at least reasonably fighty. Dont give them halberds. The rider's fighting ability is irrelevant anyway, and at T3 you will NEED that 1+ armour save, since you're going to be making a whole lot of saves. Verdict: Average

Reiksguard Knights - Stubborn inner circle knights. Expensive as hell. What's to say, knights are still bad. They're sort of okay as a tarpit, but damned expensive for it. Verdict: Bad

Pistoliers / Outriders - Didn't change at all, in points or rules. They were good before, and they're still good now. Pistoliers are a great harassment/redirect unit, Outriders bring a ton of firepower that you can vanguard into position. Verdict: Good

Cannons - 20% more expensive... probably deserved given what they do to monsters, ridden monsters, chariots, monstrous infantry, monstrous cavalry, etc. Still as important as they ever were. Verdict: Excellent

Mortars - Oh dear. Everyone knew they were due either a nerf or a points increase. What they got was both. S2 is feeble, and even direct hits on large units of T3 infantry doesn't really kill terribly much. Against T4 infantry they're worthless. They were awesome before, now they're unfortunately bad. Verdict: Bad

Flagellants - A bit of a nerfing, and a 20% points increase. Going up to WS3 is good however. They can now have the frenzy beaten out of them which is a minor nerf, but really they should be winning combat. The changes to martyrdom is the bigger concern. For one, it now happens uncontrollably, and is less likely to get you the buffs. It also, bizzarely, makes improving their tougness or giving them a ward save a bad idea, since that would make them less likely to get their re-rolls. Overall though, they should still blend most units out of existance, even operating without external buffing. Cant take them as core any more though, which makes me sad. Still, these guys are, despite what some of the doomsayers have to say on the matter, a good unit that will blend things. Verdict: Good

Helblaster Volley Gun - Well, it's less likely to simply blow itself to pieces now, which is nice. However, it still has only a 24" range and needs to roll to hit, which was the real problem with it before, and it's still a problem now. It'll average 15 shots, which at long range means 5 hits. That's pretty poor. You can allways buy an engineer for it, but that makes it rather expensive, and still only increases it to an average of 7.5 hits at long range. Not sold really. Verdict: Below Average

Helstorm Rocket Battery - Dropped to S3, dropped to small template. Ouch. it fires D3 rockets per salvo which is kinda nice, but since it always counts as unsighted it's hopelessly inaccurate. It MIGHT get a good roll, and drop all three templates into a unit, which I agree would probably be a very bad thing for that unit. But it's more likely to scatter them all over the damned place and kill only a couple of models. Verdict: Bad

Steam Tank - Well, they really messed around with this didn't they? So what's good? Well, it no longer auto-died to purple sun and pit of shades. This is a good thing. People dont automatically hit it in combat either, also a good thing. And it dropped in points! What's bad? Dropping to T6 means that alot of things are now going to be wounding it pretty reliably. Great weapons in particular are a problem. It can also be poisoned now. It's also now impossible to play it safe and ensure it works. Every turn, there's a 1 in 6 chance even when unwounded, that you have to roll on the 'my tank is f**ked' table. And alot of the results could very well lead to your expensive tank doing absolutely nothing. Being able to spend only 3 points in any one thing is also going to mean it kills less stuff, which coupled with the fact it still cant kill ANYTHING in the opponents combat phase, means that this thing will often spend an entire game fruitlessly grinding against a steadfast infantry block. The steam gun did get an improvement, now that you can increase the strength by spending more steam points on it, and might actually be the better place to spend 3 steam points in combat now. You still should never ever fire the cannon if you can help it. Overall though, it's still pretty solid and will scare the wee out of your opponent. Verdict: Good

Luminark of Hysh - First thing I should say here, is never, ever mount your wizard on this. It's just an open invitation for enemy skirmishers/flyers/fast cav to come and stab him off it. Or for cannons to delete him and it in one shot. That out the way, lets look at what it does. 6+ ward save for everything in 6". Meh. It's not going to save alot of people, and it's unlikely you'll get more than 2 units under the bubble anyway. Free dispel dice. That's nice I guess, but not overwhelming. Magic lazar death cannon. Well... it's a S8 bolt thrower. That I have to spend power dice on. *yawn*. Whatever, I have cannons. Sorry, this thing aint blowing my socks off. Verdict: Below Average

Celestial Hurricanum - Really really dont mount a wizard on this. In addition to the points above, it means you took a Heavens lord, and there are so many better lores for Empire. So, what does it do? +1 to hit in close combat for units in 6". Now THIS is pretty good. You still wont get more than 2 units affected, but it could really help swing combat for you, and what's better is that it doesn't need casting, so it cant be dispelled. This is good stuff. +1 magic dice in your magic phase is also good. We're going to need to be spamming away at warrior priest prayers, and another dice means another cast. Storm of Shemtek. It might make the target wet. Seriously... it might make it rain. Which does nothing. S2 small blast and -1 to hit until my next magic phase is so-so, the 'spin the target' is... uh. Well, okay I suppose? They might end up still facing me, so... yeah. Lightning is modestly good, S6 under the center, S3 for the rest of the small template. Meteor strike is... somewhat dissapointing actually. S8 D6 multiple wounds under the center I guess makes it frightning(ish) to Ogres, but characters will get look out sir, so rarely care. And it's just S3 on the rest of the template still. Slightly dissapointing meteor. Overall, you take this for the hit buff, and the extra magic dice, and probably ignore the bound spell in favor of using your dice on prayers instead. Verdict: Good

So, where does this leave the Empire overall? Well, we've taken a serious hit to our ability to knock holes in enemy units as they cross the table towards us. Our troops are still bad in combat, and we now get fewer of them thanks to the points increases across the board. We have access to some nice buffs, from the Hurricanum and battle prayers, but our units rely heavily on stacking multiple buffs to stand up to most other books troops in combat, and buff stacking while nice on paper, rarely works out in practice. We've lost alot of killing power, and gained little in return which overall is going to make the Empire significantly harder to play. Expect to lose often, and heavily for the first while playing with the new book while finding out what works well and what doesn't, and even after that expect to lose more often than you win against the better books of the new edition. I cant pretend I'm not dissapointed with what Cruddace has done to the Empire, and even more I'm dissapointed that of all the new model releases, only the Hurricanum and War Altar are actually worthwhile really.

Overall verdict: Below Average

JohnnoM wrote:Steam tank is disgusting, it can dish out 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d3 impact hits at str 6! OMG!!!

And? Hit it with a cannon ball, wound on 2's, laugh

Johnny-Crass wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:Steam tank is disgusting, it can dish out 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d3 impact hits at str 6! OMG!!!

And? Hit it with a cannon ball, wound on 2's, laugh

Stegadons have it worse...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:

JohnnoM wrote:Steam tank is disgusting, it can dish out 1d6 + 1d6 + 1d3 impact hits at str 6! OMG!!!

And? Hit it with a cannon ball, wound on 2's, laugh

Stegadons have it worse...

Every monster has it the same now. And Stegs were never T10....

So...you're unhappy that the Stank dies like everyone else?
Well, that's a compelling argument.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:So...you're unhappy that the Stank dies like everyone else?

10 wounds with 1+ armor makes the stank far different from the vast majority of monsters, as some of us depend on chipping giant things apart in combat to make them go away. Also, it's extremely huge that the engineer can keep the stank from falling down holes half of the time.

There are plenty of voices decrying the 'losers' of the book, here are my thoughts on a few winners after a quick read:

Warrior Priests - I had heard that they wouldn't be able to give Hatred to units any longer, but apparently that was quite wrong! Innate bound spells are groovy and seem quite legit - hooray for more augments - and the ability to channel is a decent way to get around the ridiculous +1 dispel die of last edition. Very happy with how priests have turned out (didn't look at lectors much, assuming similar situation).

Laser Cart & Hurricane Cart - I like them both, though leaning towards the hurricanum for the +1 to Hit ability, and find them well priced and a neat pair when taken together (+1 dispel and +1 power is awesome as well). Happy to see that they aren't ridiculously survivable (warshrine) nor stupidly powerful (cauldron). The downside IMO is the height of the models but that can be fixed.

Bound Spells Everywhere - So the reason I like the carts is because of their innate bounds, and really the army is filled with an immense amount of innate bounds, on top of the ability to generate power dice to run them. As the casket of souls shows, there's a huge amount of power in innate bounds, whether you've got a full phase and can pop some dice through each one, or just toss a handful through a big one and shrug when it goes IF. Should make for a different flavor of magic phase - some of which opponents won't like thanks to IF abuse (though I'm not seeing a Light of Undeath level of spell amongst all those Empire bounds) - and also might mean you don't have to take one of those now cheaper wizard lords in every game. I am always happy to see level 4's not be required, as that instantly unlocks a variety of list possibilities (WoC, I'm looking at you for the flipside of this).

Steam Tank - Ya'll can go back and forth about its survivability with T6, but I think the changes to the steam cannon alone make it much scarier than it ever was before. Before I'd tie it up forever or drop it down a hole, now I actually have to worry about it jumping over gaps and cooking through multiple units!

There are other things I'm happy to see - nerf to mortars (even if it went too far), increased cannon price, removal of various items and upcosting of others - but the bounds and the stank stood out immediately. Somewhat saddened by the beefy griffon - T5 with no armor means dead birdy - and tis a pity that bloodroar is not part of its cost. 170 with it would be ok, 195 starts to push things a tad far. And of course mine would have to have two heads

Are demigryphs really T3? How ... unfortunate

EDIT

Two Other Thoughts:
1. Very much like the witch hunter, extremely cool unit but with just two attaks I'll be interested in seeing how people kit him out to do anything. Can he take a repeater pistol (the triple shot one)? Maybe witch hunter on a flying carpet with brace of repeaters for sniper KB death?!
2. Wow pigeon bombs are still terrible. Aren't they supposed to, according to their fluff, assassinate dudes by sitting on their head? But the template it generates means that the character will be LOS!-ed out of the way, and would only take one wound anyway. Assuming you can roll 5+ in the first place

- Salvage

Yeah, I think GW derped a bit when they put a T3 rider on a T4 mount. :/
Gryphons don't have armor? Not even barding? That's silly.

Oh the Stank has 10 wounds?
...why is everyone complaining that its supposedly easy to kill them?
I mean, it has bloody 10 wounds and 1+ armor! That's amazing for what, a 200pt model?

I'll say something for Cruddace, he's a company man alright.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, I think GW derped a bit when they put a T3 rider on a T4 mount. :/

Ohhhhhh you actually use the highest toughness of a combined profile type, so they're effectively T4 in every way. I didn't think GeeDub would screw up their MB moneymaker that badly

EDIT
I ... think I'm wrong?! You use the highest wounds, mount toughness is ignored! Toughness tests would however use the demigryph's T4.

- Salvage

Boss Salvage wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, I think GW derped a bit when they put a T3 rider on a T4 mount. :/

Ohhhhhh you actually use the highest toughness of a combined profile type, so they're effectively T4 in every way. I didn't think GeeDub would screw up their MB moneymaker that badly

Nope, the rules for cavalry are very clear. You use the rider's toughness. The rules for Monstrous Cav explicitly state that you use the higher wound profile, but otherwise follow all the rules for cavalry. So, yes... they are infact T3 monstrous cavalry.

^ As edited before you ninja'd me, Cat

Besides being pretty shockingly dumb, I guess this also means that halberds really aren't an option. I was thinking that hell, 2+ armor ain't bad vs always having +1S ... but with T3 you're gonna need all the defense they can get

- Salvage

Exactly...they have 3 wounds, granted, but still, a bit of a derp.

At least the mounts are S5 with armor piercing, however, so I guess that's alright.

Why would you give the riders halberds when they come with lances base?
I'd rather have the S5 on the charge + shield than a permanent S4 with no shield.

10 wounds is 3 cannon shots. IE two turns.

The T3 Demigryphs are just horrid for what they do. Mournfang wound them on 2's....

And Boss you can not make the Wizard Carts smaller unless you support modeling for advantage and in which case lets build some army crawling giants and 2" tall terrorghiests

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why would you give the riders halberds when they come with lances base?
I'd rather have the S5 on the charge + shield than a permanent S4 with no shield.

Because 8th edition has strongly suggested that cavalry have to grind out enemy units, blowing through a serious unit on the charge is a rare event, barring LD hexes or insane killing power. Mournfang can liquify a unit on the charge (impacts ftw) and necro serpents with some magical support, not sure if demis can pull the same.

Johnny-Crass wrote:And Boss you can not make the Wizard Carts smaller unless you support modeling for advantage and in which case lets build some army crawling giants and 2" tall terrorghiests

I've supported modeling for coolness from Day One As far as TLOS goes, we know how tall the actual models are, so your tiny counts as terrorgheist - and it better be hella awesome to replace such a huge army centerpiece! - will be treated as 5+" tall or whatever the legit one is. (I'm also incredibly lax with TLOS, since all you have to do is see a shred of model through a gap in a dude's weapon to hit with your cannon or magic missile, so no reason to argue about anything so inconsequential.)

- Salvage

Honestly I think the Planetarium is one of the coolest models GW has made since those sex black knights... (mmmm love me some black knights)

The most amusing thing about the Chokobo cavalry, is the fact that by putting a knight on it's back, you actually make the Chokobo worse in a number of ways. It becomes T3, instead of T4, and can no longer make supporting attacks. (If it were just a monstrous beast, it can make all three support attacks). On the plus side, I guess you bring armour to give them a better save. But it's still rather amusing that the guy on the back degrades their combat capabilities rather than improving them.

Furycat wrote:The most amusing thing about the Chokobo cavalry, is the fact that by putting a knight on it's back, you actually make the Chokobo worse in a number of ways. It becomes T3, instead of T4, and can no longer make supporting attacks. (If it were just a monstrous beast, it can make all three support attacks). On the plus side, I guess you bring armour to give them a better save. But it's still rather amusing that the guy on the back degrades their combat capabilities rather than improving them.

Yep, as I said earlier on other threads, GW done goofed and went derp.

Comparing the Chicken knights to Mournfangs is a little unfair IMO. They are supposed to take out completely different targets.

Mournfangs are infantry blenders, Chicken knights are can-openers.


They will be absolute murder against things like Chaos Warriors and enemy knights. Their 1+ save slightly makes up for the lower toughness.

I think they are priced quite fairly.


Overall, the Empire book turned out quite nicely IMO. On par for power with all the other 8th edition books.

Grey Templar wrote:Comparing the Chicken knights to Mournfangs is a little unfair IMO. They are supposed to take out completely different targets.

Mournfangs are infantry blenders, Chicken knights are can-openers.


They will be absolute murder against things like Chaos Warriors and enemy knights. Their 1+ save slightly makes up for the lower toughness.

I think they are priced quite fairly.


Overall, the Empire book turned out quite nicely IMO. On par for power with all the other 8th edition books.

That makes sense. It would certainly explain the S5 ap attacks.
Aren't Mournfangs can openers as well? I thought they have tons of S5 attacks, which are combines with the S4 attacks of the rider.

Mournfangs can certaintly open cans but they can't take the damage in return very well.

Against Str5+ attacks Mournfangs die pretty quickly.

Grey Templar wrote:Mournfangs can certaintly open cans but they can't take the damage in return very well.

Against Str5+ attacks Mournfangs die pretty quickly.

What's their armor? Isn't it like 2+? That's the average for heavy cav isn't it?

considering that they cost 70 points each they don't like taking casualities.

every 3 wounds lost is the loss of 4 Str5 attacks and 3 str4.

Grey Templar wrote:considering that they cost 70 points each they don't like taking casualities.

every 3 wounds lost is the loss of 4 Str5 attacks and 3 str4.

But...aren't Demigryphs 60+ points as well? I'm confused.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Comparing the Chicken knights to Mournfangs is a little unfair IMO. They are supposed to take out completely different targets.

Mournfangs are infantry blenders, Chicken knights are can-openers.


They will be absolute murder against things like Chaos Warriors and enemy knights. Their 1+ save slightly makes up for the lower toughness.

I think they are priced quite fairly.


Overall, the Empire book turned out quite nicely IMO. On par for power with all the other 8th edition books.

That makes sense. It would certainly explain the S5 ap attacks.
Aren't Mournfangs can openers as well? I thought they have tons of S5 attacks, which are combines with the S4 attacks of the rider.

Sort of, except because of the low ini if they don't get the charge they can be vulnerable.

The Demigriffins don't have that issue, plus they have more WS.

Except according to its rules its own rules can make it lose said wounds. It used to have ten wounds as the most of its rules revolved around how many wounds it had. Another thing about it was as soon as it lost around4 wounds it was mostly useless as its abilitys and even darngoshing moving wouldnt happen or then would always get over rolled and lose yet another wound. Appropriately named stank.

So in an even points set up, you'd have 7 Demigryphs vs 6 Mournfang (assuming Mournfang have heavy armour and ironfists.)

Now I know no one takes the above units in the described numbers, but consider the following.

Mounrfang charge and do 12 impact hits on average, causing 3.33 wounds.

Demigryphs strike back. and deal 4.44 wounds. Riders strike back and deal .55 wounds, so on average fair to say 5 wounds total.

Ogres strike back and real 0.83 wounds.

Mournfang strike back and deal 2.77 wounds, so fair to say about 3 more total.

So if the Mournfang charge, they deal a total of 6.91 wounds, and the Demigryphs deal 4.99 back. So you can see that it's pretty close.

Without the charge, Mournfang get slaughtered by Demigryphs.

If you consider Mournfang with Great Weapons charging the Demigryphs, you still deal 3.33 wounds with the impact hits, but with less armour and no parry, the demigryphs drag down 6.66 Mournfang, and the Knights deal another wound (7.66 total.)

The Great weapon Ogres swing back and deal 2.5 wounds. The Mournfang deal 2.22 wounds, for a grand total of 8.02.

Again, very close, and considering the Mournfang get the charge (to rob the Knights of the Lance bonus, and to gain those crucial impact hits.)

Mournfang are 1 movement faster, but with the difference is negligible at that level when it comes down to the charge.

Except that isn't a proper comparison. Just because 2 units are equal when fighting each other doesn't mean they are equal on the battlefield.

Compare Demigryphs vs Chaos Warriors with Mournfangs vs Chaos warriors.

Demigryphs vs 18 MoT Warriors with Shields and Mournfangs vs Halberdier Horde.


4 Demigryphs charge the Chaos Warriors. Warriors go first.

19 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s. 8 wounds at -1 to saves. Knights take 1 wound.

Knights attack back. 4 Str6 attacks and 12 Str5 AP attacks. Hitting on 4s. 2 Str6 hits and 6 Str5 hits. total of 6 wounds with -3 to saves. Chaos warriors take 3 casualities.

4 stomps claim another Chaos warrior.

Knights 4, Warriors 1


Mournfangs vs Chaos Warriors

4D3 impact hits. 3.7 warriors die on average.

Warriors strike first and cause roughly 1.75 wounds(without the DHB on the Fangs)

Mournfangs attack. 12 Str4 attacks and 16 str5 attacks. 6 str4 hits, 8 str5 hits. 3 Str4 wounds, 5 str5 wounds. 3 warriors die.

4 str5 stomps kill another warior.

Mournfangs win combat 7 to 2.



In comparason, the Mournfangs do almost twice as much damage but take twice as much damage in return.

Sorry Grey Templar, I was replying to this.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

The T3 Demigryphs are just horrid for what they do. Mournfang wound them on 2's....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Except that isn't a proper comparison. Just because 2 units are equal when fighting each other doesn't mean they are equal on the battlefield...Demigryphs vs 18 MoT Warriors with Shields and Mournfangs vs Halberdier Horde...

In comparason, the Mournfangs do almost twice as much damage but take twice as much damage in return.

I don't quite understand this comparison. Are you comparing Demigryphs and Mournfang to differently equipped units of Chaos Warriors?

I was saying that comparing 2 things is best done against a 3rd type of enemy unit and not against each other. Because just having the 2 units in question slam head to head just prooves which is better against the other, it doesn't show a realistic battlefield scenerio.

I meant in your example vs the Chaos Warriors.

You wrote:

"Demigryphs vs 18 MoT Warriors with Shields and Mournfangs vs Halberdier Horde"

So aren't you comparing unit A to unit Z and unit B to unit Y?

That was a typo from a rough draft.

The math is all against Chaos Warriors.

Pitting MF against halberds is helping the Demi-G in the numbers crunching thanks to S5

Okay, let me check your math here. Assuming 18 Warriors of Chaos with MoT and Full Command.

4 Demigryphs charge the Chaos Warriors. Warriors go first.

19 attacks = 1.055 wounds.

4 Knights = 0.92 wounds.
Demigryphs = 2.22 wounds.
Stomps = 1.77 wounds.

4.91 wounds (about 5.)

Mournfangs vs Chaos Warriors

8 impact hits should cause 3.55 wounds (you got 3.7 - 4D3 averages 8, 2/3 chance to wound, 2/3 chance to get by the armour save = 8 x 4/9 = 32/9 = 3.55)

Warriors strike first.

19 attacks = 1.76 wounds.

Ogres = 1 wound.
Mournfang = 2.37 wounds.
Stomps = 1.77

8.69 (about 9) wounds total.

Again, Mournfang do better on the charge (due to impact hits) but they also cost significantly (20%) more.

After the charge, the kills even up huge.

Man, this is really going on? lol

Furycat wrote:The most amusing thing about the Chokobo cavalry, is the fact that by putting a knight on it's back, you actually make the Chokobo worse in a number of ways. It becomes T3, instead of T4, and can no longer make supporting attacks. (If it were just a monstrous beast, it can make all three support attacks).

Psst:

BRB FAQ wrote:Page 83 – Monstrous Cavalry
Add “MONSTROUS SUPPORT
Furthermore, the rider of a monstrous cavalry model can make
as many supporting attacks as are on its profile, up to a
maximum of three.” to the end of the paragraph.

EDIT
GUH, ignore me! Reading fail, wrong again Sorry Cat!

- Salvage

My cursory look through the book, makes it look like it's as balanced as the other 8th ed books so far, which are relatively close in power to each other, with maybe Ogres being a tad better than the others.

Sasori wrote:My cursory look through the book, makes it look like it's as balanced as the other 8th ed books so far, which are relatively close in power to each other, with maybe Ogres being a tad better than the others.

What Sasori said!

Johnny-Crass wrote:10 wounds is 3 cannon shots. IE two turns.

Good thing every army has cannons...

Yeah, like Demons, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves...they all have cannons, right?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, like Demons, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves...they all have cannons, right?

Besides two of those armies they can all take amber spear


And the comment want it could get crumped by cannons, I did not say cannons where everywhere. It is the argument against every other no save monster and no one brings up that only three armies bring black powder to the party.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, like Demons, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves...they all have cannons, right?

Besides two of those armies they can all take amber spear


And the comment want it could get crumped by cannons, I did not say cannons where everywhere. It is the argument against every other no save monster and no one brings up that only three armies bring black powder to the party.

Amber spear is only S6 D3 wounds, at 24" range.
It can be S10 D6 wounds, but only if you use enough power dice, as opposed to the cannon which is S10 all the time.

And I think you mean 3 armies. TK, VC and DE can't get lore of beasts. LM can get it...but Lore of Light is more useful for Lizardmen I think.

The Stank is fine. It can survive.

VC can use lore of beasts for 20 points

Johnny-Crass wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, like Demons, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, High Elves...they all have cannons, right?

Besides two of those armies they can all take amber spear

Good thing you're 100% sure to get that, and that you don't need other lores than beasts to be competetive. Ohwait.

Johnny-Crass wrote:VC can use lore of beasts for 20 points

Wait wut? How?

Forbidden Lore

Johnny-Crass wrote:Forbidden Lore

Oh, is that what it does now? Huh. That's a change from the old spell spam.

Commenting on a book you do not know about? You have become what you hate CS!

Mwuahahahah

Johnny-Crass wrote:Commenting on a book you do not know about? You have become what you hate CS!

Mwuahahahah

Noooooo!
Meh, I always have problems keeping up with new editions. Just used to Vampire Forbidden lore shenanigans I guess.

Oh well.
Hold on, does the FL allow the wizard to specify what spell he's taking? Or is it random?
Cause if its random, he has a 1/6 chance of getting the amber spear. Those are not good odds.

It just gives him knowledge of the lore like any other wizard

So...its not a guaranteed Amber Spear? Not a very reliable way of killing a steam tank then, now is it?

However, I had a look at the rules for hex wraiths. Those I think may make a stank nervous.
Is the steam cannon magical?

Cheap spirit host is the bane of stanks... and demigriphs... and anythign without ranks

What I'm concerned about is everyone's saying we have all the characters to put in a unit for buffs.
But if you add Capt, WP, WH and Full command..... your muso will be bumped to the 2nd rank unless you run horde. What happens to anvil units when all the buffs are in the front rank and not very good in combat? I've heard people saying "they'll be attacking rank and file to get combat resolution".... but even if that is how your opponent thinks - he can't reach any rank and file because your entire front rank is heros and champions!

Does anyone else see this as an issue or am I missing something?

karlosovic wrote:What I'm concerned about is everyone's saying we have all the characters to put in a unit for buffs.
But if you add Capt, WP, WH and Full command..... your muso will be bumped to the 2nd rank unless you run horde. What happens to anvil units when all the buffs are in the front rank and not very good in combat? I've heard people saying "they'll be attacking rank and file to get combat resolution".... but even if that is how your opponent thinks - he can't reach any rank and file because your entire front rank is heros and champions!

Does anyone else see this as an issue or am I missing something?

Just do not make way.... Problem solved

Demigryphs < Mournfangs I think in most situations. Yes, you can tailor fights where Demis are better but out of the 3982238 fights that exist, I wager the majority will go to MF pretty concisively. But that's okay, they are both good units.

Also, for the record, we're in 8th edition now. I'd like to see mathhammer from now on go against 8th armies, not something that may or may not be here in X months.

And if I had a penny for every army that didn't have access to cannons and didn't have amber spear, I'd have a hell of a lot more money than my evil twin who took the opposite bet.

Demigryphs and Mournfangs have different roles IMO.

The chickens are for opening high armor elites such as Chaos Warriors. Mournfangs are cheap weak infantry blenders.

Mournfangs also cost 10 points more.


The Chickens can take on more enemies because of 1+ armor. Str5 doesn't bother them as much as it bothers Mournfangs.

While big huge blocks of core are nice, if core isn't your strength, spend as little there as you can and move along. (And it definately is not this books strength.) I see myself at 2k points probably taking around 600-700 points of characters because in this edition of Empire, Heroes are your best units. It's looking like 2/3 WP's, a naked Engineer, and a lvl 1 LoShadow scroll caddy in addition to my lvl 4 LoMetal. (LoMetal ONLY because I think it's the neatest Lore and empire is my first army to be able to use it.) Also, I think that the Helstrom Rockets are worthy of consideration. My only issue is that I think the only dice that can cause a misfire should be the first missile you roll.. or give it a roll similar to that of the gatling gun and vary the severity of the missile mishaps based on the number of missiles fired.

Also, some quick hits..

- Captains and Generals of the Empire... They did go up in points but their plate armor dropped by about 4 points.. and if they arent in magical, everyone takes plate!

- Detachments ... Yeah you can still charge them and they can no longer autoflank. This probably means that the best use for them is a small unit of xbows or handgunners to add a few free wounds to the enemy. Not sure if they count for combat rez, but if they do..outstanding!

- Demigryphs ... I plan on using 6 to 8 depending on points values. I think they're wonderful at not only scare tactics but at making things dead. I think I would use them against any other big beastie and not just infantry. I wouldnt be scared of Hellpits, Stanks, Mournfang, Stegadons, or anything else that isnt a T8 Sphinx. That's probably the only enemy I would stay away from. My favorite MC is still the TK Snake Surfers, but these are a close second followed by Mournfang.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Come to think of it, it's going to feel a lot like the old TK's.

Minimum core.
Maximum characters.
Lots of points in special / rare choices.
Irregular magic in bound spells everywhere.

There's going to be strategy in trying to bait out your opponents dispel dice with prayers and low cost spells. Low power dice will hurt by reducing your options, but will also greatly reduce the mount of spells your opponent can stop.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, I think GW derped a bit when they put a T3 rider on a T4 mount. :/

Pffft, they did that with Dark Elves first. T3 Elf on a T4 Cold One.

The most effective way to take out the Steam Tank without cannons (for armies which have access to it) is Lore of Metal. The signature spell does D6 wounds, wounding on a 2+ with no armour saves allowed. Or you can boost it to 2D6 wounds, which will average 7 wounds from one spell.

As there is probably going to be a few other units with 1+ armour saves in an Empire army (Demigryphs etc.) Lore of Metal is going to be one of the most useful lores for doing some serious hurt.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, I think GW derped a bit when they put a T3 rider on a T4 mount. :/

Pffft, they did that with Dark Elves first. T3 Elf on a T4 Cold One.

Ok, good point.
In fact, I think they derped even harder there, since cold ones don't have 3 wounds each.
If they did, then CoC would immediately gain several awesome points.