So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Isn't this better suited for 40k general discussion?

curran12 wrote:Isn't this better suited for 40k general discussion?

Eeek! *doh* I had multiple tabs open and I clicked the create thread button on the wrong one >.<;;

But yeah, I'd agree, sorry about that. Perhaps a mod will move it.

I voted for 8 armies (ahh, 40k)... but by definition, can half of the selection be considered overpowered? If half of the population (of 15) is overpowered, then aren't they technically powered just evenly? The rest are just underpowered?

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:I voted for 8 armies (ahh, 40k)... but by definition, can half of the selection be considered overpowered? If half of the population (of 15) is overpowered, then aren't they technically powered just evenly? The rest are just underpowered?

Vanilla Marines and Chaos Daemons? About the only thing OP in Vanilla I'd say is Vulkan, and Chaos Daemons have some cool stuff but don't stack up well against the new stuff. Their flamers that don't allow saves are pretty awesome though.

I am gonna say just this:

You are going to always hear that GK, IG, and SW are overpowered.

You are also never gonna hear that Tau, Black Templar, and dark angels are overpowered------ UNTIL they get a new codex.

The thing is, all codexes have their secrets, but the three stated above have HEAVILY used combos that are hard to counter.

I think everyone can agree on a few things.

IG can take way too much and their point system is off giving them an advantage.

There will always be people playing SW fielding long fangs like it is going out of style. but sadly it is not, it is just more annoying playing the same damn army over and over again.

GK, just some BS there. 135 points for a dreadnaught that can fire 4 twin link strength 8 shots, yea, that's some ripe BS.


Just have to wait until the other codexes are caught up. I know GW is a business trying to make money, but the codex thing to make everyone go gagga over the next codex is getting ridiculous. they need to push out more new codexes and bring armies back onto a more even playing field.

I voted all armys

I guess Orks can't be cheesy!

I would vote none but it's not an option...

Yes, some armies are better than others but that is always going to happen when each army has wildly different stuff, and the codicies are written by different people.

I think any army can be deadly or op if the right commander is playing the army, and is very good with the army. True it's easier to play some armies or create that op list in certain armies...but I think all the armies have a set up that can be op. it also depends on what the opponent is playing, their list, and their commander skill level. There are too many variables to flat out call an army op IMO. The reason gk is number one on people's list as being op is largely due to the types of lists these guys are playing against...you know what the gk guy is going to bring to the table...ven dreads purifier spams counter it an the op is gone, and we get a new flavor of the week.

This thread will go nowhere. I can say right now that Crons, GK, and SW's are what I view as today's power houses. But that is based on my own experiences. Everyone else has their own experiences and because of it your probably never going to come up with a unbiased answer.

Though I do bet many will agree on at least 2 of the three I listed.

tau, they are the most broken army in the game, hell just look at vespids!!! S5 AP3 guns, thats insane and dont get me started on that kroot ox thing. their etherials are by far more broken than draigo

lets just hope their new codex balances everything out



so any way, there is no such thing as a broken army if you bother to sit down and look at the codex rather than listening to a load of but hurt from idiots who somehow think draigo is over powered and that marines with glowing swords are somehow better than normal marines. if your finding it hard to beat an army you need to do one of two things:

1: play better, rather than blaming your opponents codex take a good long look at your army and ask your self what it is that YOU did wrong that game

2: find out what o did wrong and find a way to prevent that from happening again

you are also going to get horrible match ups such as tau VS dark eldar who will be at quite a dissavantage or dark eldar against grey knights who wont have the range/fire power to deal with a fleet of raiders.

each codex has access to what you lot call cheese, tau, orks and GKs have wound allocation, dark eldar have mass dark lance/ splinter shots, sisters have celestine and exorcists, guard have a small bucket of heavy weapons....the list goes on. though saddly I can see this thread turning into another GK bashing thread by thenext page -_-

I was going to vote for orks, but they're so woefully awful they didn't even make it into the poll...

1. Grey Knights - They just reach levels of absurd that no other codex can compete with.

2. Space Wolves - They get everything Space Marines get + a hell of a lot more and all at a much cheaper points value.

3. Imperial Guard - They can spam the gak out of everything. Mech-Vet and Leafblower... Need I say more?

DPBellathrom wrote:tau, they are the most broken army in the game, hell just look at vespids!!! S5 AP3 guns, thats insane and dont get me started on that kroot ox thing. their etherials are by far more broken than draigo

lets just hope their new codex balances everything out
-

I agree with you that it is more about the general than the codex. But playing tau exclusively, I have to disagree with you. Not that we are broken (OHHH, yes we are, having a 7 year old codex doesnt help), but those broken elements are not strengths.

most tau players that have used vespid hate them. yes, their weapons are very nice, but the models are spendy and with only a range of 12", the vespids have to destroy the unit they seek.

If marines are in cover, then the vespid have no chance. 10 vespid, 5 will hit, 4 will wound, 2 cover saves,
by the math, the 180 point unit just took out 2 marines. OUCH. and like the rest of the tau, they are not that good in close combat. With a 12 inch range, they are getting assaulted next turn.

Kroot ox is pretty cool, I will give that one. And etherials are nice, but they have a horrid horrid backlash when they get sniped....

I dont think this will be a GK bashing thread, just a thread on who hates what codex the most

Dark Eldar. Those 10/10/10 vehicles are too fast. Also a 5++ invulnerable save?! Too cheesey...

Bat Manuel wrote:I guess Orks can't be cheesy!

Totally thought I got everyone, updated the poll.

Redbeard wrote:I was going to vote for orks, but they're so woefully awful they didn't even make it into the poll...

How so? Orks have multiple builds which can do well in the right hands. At the GT level they can be very viable especially in scenario game play where you need to control objectives. They can get boned in kill point missions. There are lots of opponents who stare at 3 Battlewagon / Roller lists and think "crap i'm screwed." Ever watch a guard player when a Ork army with 3 units of Lootas opens up on the Guard Armor 12 thanks? Do be effective, they have to be in range, thus are on equal footing of Orks. Scouting Deff Koptas are pretty sweet in the right hands. I've played quite a few GK players, and on turn 1 blew apart those pesky dreads and transports, and dropped Dreadknights in 1 turn with Lootas. Killa Kans into Grey Knights works out just fine, you might lose a kan, but you will grind them down.

I'm not disagreeing that Orks will struggle in some games. But they are often not simply blown off the table. I run a hybrid list which is Loota / Kan / Boy heavy. I did just fine this weekend, and got soundly trumped in Rd 5 with a king of the hill objective. I got trumped by the scenario, and an opponent who knew how to use his army effectively. He played that mission flawlessly, hats off to him. I don't think it matters when you run into that. He'd probably have beaten quite a few Grey Knight, Guard, or Dark Elder players in that game where you scored 1 point for each model on the middle objective, which the majority of the tables had terrain as they wouldn't have had the numbers he did.

oni wrote:1. Grey Knights - They just reach levels of absurd that no other codex can compete with.

2. Space Wolves - They get everything Space Marines get + a hell of a lot more and all at a much cheaper points value.

3. Imperial Guard - They can spam the gak out of everything. Mech-Vet and Leafblower... Need I say more?

I hear thoughts like this alot and can't help but think:

1) And they die like any other marine. But don't get meltas. Or much AT beyond S8 dreadnought AC's....

2) They don't get cheap SS+TH terms, FNP, characters that twin link meltas/flamers/etc, decent assault or bikes, etc. As to LF spam, MLs are just overcosted in the old codexes. If pred lcs weren't so overpriced and vindis didn't have the lose a weapon, now you are useless issue, you might see more variety. I also think it would help if most of their better stuff wasn't crammed into Elites with 1 good choice in FA, Heavy, etc.

3) Yes. "Leafblower" is a crappy mech hybrid that existed for all of 2 tournaments. Mech Vet is good- unless you can pop AV 12/10 from range and kill T3 dudes. But if they didn't have that, what would be the other options? Blobs? Then they would be crud. What this codex probably needs is for vendettas to lose transports capacity, hellhounds and russ crap (IE the non plain and non demolisher) variants get a price break, ogryns get some better options, HWT get reworked, etc. so mono builds aren't the only competitive way to play.

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Well being that your Necron opponent was not playing the codex correctly, it probably seemed alot better than it is. The only vehicle that can tank shock is the Monolith as it is the only tank. Couple a few more errors in his favor with your unfamiliarity with the codex and I'm sure it seemed like the most busted thing ever.

Icemyn wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Well being that your Necron opponent was not playing the codex correctly, it probably seemed alot better than it is. The only vehicle that can tank shock is the Monolith as it is the only tank. Couple a few more errors in his favor with your unfamiliarity with the codex and I'm sure it seemed like the most busted thing ever.

This I did not know, thanks, I have forwarded the information.

Orks are the most overpowered. They're the only army I can watch as my opponent's face drops at the prospect at having to kill over 200 models.

The tools are available to beat them, but thanks to the proliferation of parking lot armies, few people bring the anti-ork tools.

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Sooo, you openly admit you have no idea of what their rules are or how they play, but are suprised when you get beat? That sounds more like you didnt know what was what and your opponent took advantage of your ignorance. How does that correlate to overpowered?

buckero0 wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Sooo, you openly admit you have no idea of what their rules are or how they play, but are suprised when you get beat? That sounds more like you didnt know what was what and your opponent took advantage of your ignorance. How does that correlate to overpowered?

That is a small portion of it, it does not change the fact that they have a selection of tools that are awesome. Furthermore, as noted above, he pulled some maneuvers that are not legal (for which neither of us knew). Finally, please refrain from calling me (or referring to me) as ignorant. I'd prefer uninformed, I learn quickly in regards to games and as this is only my second time playing against the new Necrons there are some things that I am simply not familiar with. Watching Mind-Shackle-Scarabs on miniwargaming's videos is one thing, playing against them is another, one has to learn how to combat it, this does not however in any way mean that the things they can do (in my opinion) are not overly powerful.

Don't laugh at me but I think 6th will balance out 40k. I like what's Ward's done now that we've seen more Codices and how they work with one another. It's simply a matter of shaking off the blandness that we still have left over from 4th and 5th... In two years things will be better.

Henners91 wrote:Don't laugh at me but I think 6th will balance out 40k. I like what's Ward's done now that we've seen more Codices and how they work with one another. It's simply a matter of shaking off the blandness that we still have left over from 4th and 5th... In two years things will be better.

The problem is, in two years will the current codeces be terrible and the new ones blow them away. IE: will 6th ed Tau smash so hard everyone flocks to it and the old OP is so under-OP that no one plays it. GW makes sense with what it does, the newest and best armies sell, but if everything was somewhat on par I think the game would be more enjoyable, that is, with people playing what they want to play not just want 'can' win.

jazzpaintball wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:tau, they are the most broken army in the game, hell just look at vespids!!! S5 AP3 guns, thats insane and dont get me started on that kroot ox thing. their etherials are by far more broken than draigo

lets just hope their new codex balances everything out
-

I agree with you that it is more about the general than the codex. But playing tau exclusively, I have to disagree with you. Not that we are broken (OHHH, yes we are, having a 7 year old codex doesnt help), but those broken elements are not strengths.

most tau players that have used vespid hate them. yes, their weapons are very nice, but the models are spendy and with only a range of 12", the vespids have to destroy the unit they seek.

If marines are in cover, then the vespid have no chance. 10 vespid, 5 will hit, 4 will wound, 2 cover saves,
by the math, the 180 point unit just took out 2 marines. OUCH. and like the rest of the tau, they are not that good in close combat. With a 12 inch range, they are getting assaulted next turn.

Kroot ox is pretty cool, I will give that one. And etherials are nice, but they have a horrid horrid backlash when they get sniped....

I dont think this will be a GK bashing thread, just a thread on who hates what codex the most

.......computers suck at sarcasm :3 I know full well just how terribad a kroot ox, vespids and etherials are XD that being said koot are starting to supprise me on just how efective a blob unit of them can be but I wouldnt call cheese on them just yet lol

Jstncloud wrote:Finally, please refrain from calling me (or referring to me) as ignorant. I'd prefer uninformed,

Ignorant and uninformed mean the same thing.

I know that some armies have some units that are OP and when those units get spammed the whole army can be considered OP.

However, each of those builds can be beat by any other army if the dice gods are kind any you know how to explot the strengths of your own army.

However, having said that, some armies are just, no matter its strength level, unfun to play against. For myself GK fit into that category. No matter what the army is composed of, they are just unfun to play against, and that's worse than being OP.

Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam... any one who plays this list will think that IG are OP but most people know that this isn't the case, a further example is Venomspam anyone who plays that will think that DE are op (I am for one, of those people but only because I have only fought venomspam no other types of lists) but they are not.

The only reason why people complain why an army is OP is because of the spam lists and if you look in detail to each case of "Army X is OP because I cant beat them" is mainly because they have fought a spam list, therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...

GK are OP but they are counterable i mean c'mon they can put a ballistic 5 4 s8 shot producing dread that ignores 1s and 2s in area terrain with a 2+++ cover save ohhh and the terminators

DarknessEternal wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:Finally, please refrain from calling me (or referring to me) as ignorant. I'd prefer uninformed,

Ignorant and uninformed mean the same thing.

Rude and polite are two different things, if someone wants to insult me via the forums/internet I have no problem using the ignore function, no sweat off my back.

Why isn't there a "None of the above" option?

I voted for GK's and BA's. Haven't played SW yet though. And Necrons are not OP. Simply balanced. You know they are going to outshoot you almost all of the time, but if you get them in assault, they are screwed more often than not.

Tau and Nids are overpowered to 16 people?

REALLY???

LOL.....

Not to shocking with the lame knights, but Tau and Nids?

There are always some 'random static/interference' votes - if there had been an option for 'Slann' in the list, it probably would have had some votes

Personally, I would just like to see a bit less 'feel no pain' in the new game, it gets so tiresome sometimes just trying to kill stuff!

happygolucky wrote:Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam..

................... therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...

Care to explain what an IG player would do then when faced by Battlewagon/Loota spam (like you took to the last Tournie) without spamming Vendettas or LC HWS or Leman Russes?

Hesh_Tank_On wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam..

................... therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...

Care to explain what an IG player would do then when faced by Battlewagon/Loota spam (like you took to the last Tournie) without spamming Vendettas or LC HWS or Leman Russes?

He's got a point there. IG is about have double of everything, even though everyone knows Vendettas should be 20 points more. But people who make spam lists have predictable tunnel vision.

Grey Knights can be countered by theoretically any army if the player is good enough.

But that's really not how the game should work, that non-GK (or non-Imperial in general) players basically deal with handicaps and an uphill struggle.

Hesh_Tank_On wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam..

................... therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...

Care to explain what an IG player would do then when faced by Battlewagon/Loota spam (like you took to the last Tournie) without spamming Vendettas or LC HWS or Leman Russes?

IG long range AT is odd, for a shooty army, their options for LRAT are rather limited, at least, in terms of effective options.

They have a decent number of LRAT platforms, but few are useful on a consistent basis. One will notice that you don't typically see LR Vanquishers, Lascannon Sentinels, Lascannon HWT's, etc even when Vendetta's and the like aren't included. There's a reason for that, they aren't very good at what they do.

If these other platforms were adequately capable for their points, you'd see less of the Vendetta spam and the like, but in many respects the IG codex has a choice between "Junk" and "Obvious Spam Choice" and relatively little in between for LRAT, and some other roles as well, hence why the book seems a bit spammy in many respects. Internal balance is rather poor.

Grey Knights win another poll I see.
Well I am not surprised, they are after all small and elite army of professional Space Marines, they should be able to kick almost everyone butt (unless that someone is giant horde army like Nids, Orks and Guard).

I didn't see an option for none, so I voted yes for all of the armies listed.
I like equality.

SW GK IG (no particular order, I'm not sure on the order myself)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:Grey Knights win another poll I see.
Well I am not surprised, they are after all small and elite army of professional Space Marines, they should be able to kick almost everyone butt (unless that someone is giant horde army like Nids, Orks and Guard).

This isn't fluff in a book, it's a game and IG/SW/GK should have never been written to be quite that powerful.

Hesh_Tank_On wrote:
Care to explain what an IG player would do then when faced by Battlewagon/Loota spam (like you took to the last Tournie) without spamming Vendettas or LC HWS or Leman Russes?

Mortars.

Eldar are too strong, especially their Storm Guardians..........

Harriticus wrote:Grey Knights can be countered by theoretically any army if the player is good enough.

But that's really not how the game should work, that non-GK (or non-Imperial in general) players basically deal with handicaps and an uphill struggle.

There is no counter to Grey Knights in the Ork Codex. I've looked.

Hit them with the Codex?

If you dont think Grey Knights are overpowered your a complete idiot.

I am okay with almost everything in the GK codex. Yes, it's frustrating, Yes, they've got a frankly dizzying array of special weapons that far outclass anything available in the other codices. But it's all mostly manageable.

I reserve my complaints for two rules:
1) Fortitude
2) Purifying Flame

In the interest of preventing this from being a rant, I'll skip the rationale behind it. But I suspect i'm not the only one that feels this way.

I voted GK's.

But then I play Daemons, so, I can't help but see them as 40k's version of '7th ed Fantasy Daemons' when I can't even deploy a single ing model on the table and auto-lose because I didn't go first...

Okay, so you need about 30-40 strike/interceptors to do that, but still, most people have no concept of just how awful warp quake is when a single 10 man squad can lock-off a 24"x44" area of the table! Add to that another 7" to avoid bad scatter rolls, and those 10 guys suddenly can make roughly half the table into a case of 'this is a bad idea to drop here' to 'this is sheer darwinisim to drop here!'

No book should EVER have that kind of an advantage over another book!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I didn't see an option for none, so I voted yes for all of the armies listed.
I like equality.

Hey me too

Hesh_Tank_On wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam..

................... therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...

Care to explain what an IG player would do then when faced by Battlewagon/Loota spam (like you took to the last Tournie) without spamming Vendettas or LC HWS or Leman Russes?

Well in a sense I had too mainly because as you say the tournaments have got a bit too competitive and since Kan wall seemed appealing but it lacks mobility (a key factor I have seen in 40K now and tournaments) so I decided to go for BW rush, and I would like to note that I regret it because the main point was it was fun for a few tries but soon got boring to play and im sure my opponents have gotten bored of playing that list hence why my orks have taken a very long break on the shelf... because I hate playing that army now.

As well as that to note I did put in other examples, such as venomspam, these are cases that are netlists, what you could do is exterminator pattern leman russes, you could go for basilisk squadrons, etc... there are more types of competitive lists that can be more fun to play as and against the going for a netlist, also to note this wasn't targeting specific army's but more of the lines of spamming and netlists (obviously I could make a whole rant about GK but since they get their fair share of bashing by everyone and since I know its always the lists not the army that makes a list powerful, i better not), and so my main point is that we should not be saying "army X is powerful" or "This new army Y is powerful" (after all I see people saying that a lot of people saying that the newest army that comes out is OP, I have one word to disrupt those peoples point of views... Necrons...) but more about what people make their army to be, in their lists.

happygolucky wrote:

Hesh_Tank_On wrote:

happygolucky wrote:Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam..

................... therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...

Care to explain what an IG player would do then when faced by Battlewagon/Loota spam (like you took to the last Tournie) without spamming Vendettas or LC HWS or Leman Russes?

Well in a sense I had too mainly because as you say the tournaments have got a bit too competitive and since Kan wall seemed appealing but it lacks mobility (a key factor I have seen in 40K now and tournaments) so I decided to go for BW rush, and I would like to note that I regret it because the main point was it was fun for a few tries but soon got boring to play and im sure my opponents have gotten bored of playing that list hence why my orks have taken a very long break on the shelf... because I hate playing that army now.

As well as that to note I did put in other examples, such as venomspam, these are cases that are netlists, what you could do is exterminator pattern leman russes, you could go for basilisk squadrons, etc... there are more types of competitive lists that can be more fun to play as and against the going for a netlist, also to note this wasn't targeting specific army's but more of the lines of spamming and netlists (obviously I could make a whole rant about GK but since they get their fair share of bashing by everyone and since I know its always the lists not the army that makes a list powerful, i better not), and so my main point is that we should not be saying "army X is powerful" or "This new army Y is powerful" (after all I see people saying that a lot of people saying that the newest army that comes out is OP, I have one word to disrupt those peoples point of views... Necrons...) but more about what people make their army to be, in their lists.

How about weighing in the competitive options of each codex before saying it is 'just the list.' I will concede the fact that certain lists may be overly powerful, but that does not change the fact that if a codex can spit out multiple OP lists (See GK, BA, IG, SW, Necrons) it is more lethal than, say a codex that has one option or nothing (in the case of Codex: Marines where nearly every competitive army seems to use Vulcan). Example: Take a look at Tyranids, what list is even possible with them to be OP in the competitive circuit? Any army sporting enough AP 3 and/or blast templates/flamers will more than likely rip their list to shreds.

You have not met my 'Nid friends... genestealer heavy lists and tervigon + swarmlord and doom of malanti lists seem to do pretty well in the competitive circuit, I agree they are not as well combative against other lists such as venom spam, etc but still they will do well in the hands of good tacticians...

IG, GK and SW are the op of the day. Mephiston gets special mention.

I voted GK, because they are kinda hard counters to two whole armies, and can ruin a lot of other units extremely easy.

A few problems I have encountered...

1) Force weapons on everything. Why? They don't do anything against demons, needing their own special rules to do that, and are brutalize an other monster-heavy list, such as tyranids and Haemonculi-coven.

2) Brotherhood banner. To make things worse, I now cannot block off the force weapons with shadow in the warp, as my enemy automatically passes.

3) Force halberds. I6 Terminators. Woot. I don't think Ward realizes the general trade-off between taking a hit and killing everything before it can attack. Really puts a nail in the coffin of guys like striking scorpions and Incubi. Both their I5 and 3+ are now useless!

4) Cleansing flair. How Ward could possibly have thought that this was balanced, I have no idea. Goodby Orks, guants, genestealers, etc.

5) The Deepstrike mishap power. Goodbye demons, dropnids, or anyone who wanted to play a deepstrike army.

6) The vehicle power. The end of all subtlety with Anti-Tank. No longer can I focus on neutralizing my enemy for a turn, now I have to kill it outright if I want it to stop shooting me.

Tau are so OP they don't even need a 6th Editition Codex...

KplKeegan wrote:Tau are so OP they don't even need a 6th Editition Codex...

You iz a funny person

I watch a lot of batreps online and GK/Necrons have a pretty good track-record in their favor. Draigowing can kill pretty much any aside from Necrons if it doesn't kill the Necrons quickly enough.

Other than that, meh.

To me, an army is only ever OP if its extremely point and click and requires no brain power at all.
So far, no army seems to truly match this criteria. Yes, even GK as they can be defeated, and the so called instawin armies (such as draigowing) have some serious flaws.

Gotta laugh at the people that seriously Voted Tau and Daemons OP.

Every army has one thing in it that can be seen as cheesy if you dig deep enough for it.

These kinds of threads always go slightly off topic as people talk about how general matters more, or how every race has a strong unit comp...It's usually wise to state conditions at the beginning of a thread to sort through the riffraff.

Of course general matters more than army, as skill level is much more relevant to outcome than army statistics alone.

All balance discussions assume that two generals, of equal skill level, equal game knowledge, and equal familiarity with their armies, are facing off in a vacuum. They both are using the strongest (or cheesiest) TAC lists they can field (minimal meta gaming). Their approximate skill level is top-tournament worthy, though not skill capped (as skill cap is impossible to actually reach).

In conditions such as these, OP can definitely be more easily defined. Assuming all of the above, who would come out on top over thousands of games? It is from this that we can acquire statistically significant data on how races fare in terms of strength.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:To me, an army is only ever OP if its extremely point and click and requires no brain power at all.
So far, no army seems to truly match this criteria. Yes, even GK as they can be defeated, and the so called instawin armies (such as draigowing) have some serious flaws.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

Clearly, CSM, Tau, SoB and Tyranids are OP and should be nerfed out of existence.

Durza wrote:Clearly, CSM, Tau, SoB and Tyranids are OP and should be nerfed out of existence.

Oh, and 3rd necrons. Those guys were ott. I mean, they can get back up on a 4+ AND their vehicle ignores melta and lances! WTF!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:Clearly, CSM, Tau, SoB and Tyranids are OP and should be nerfed out of existence.

Oh, and 3rd necrons. Those guys were ott. I mean, they can get back up on a 4+ AND their vehicle ignores melta and lances! WTF!

And the Avatar. I mean, ignoring flamers and melta weapons?

Durza wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:Clearly, CSM, Tau, SoB and Tyranids are OP and should be nerfed out of existence.

Oh, and 3rd necrons. Those guys were ott. I mean, they can get back up on a 4+ AND their vehicle ignores melta and lances! WTF!

And the Avatar. I mean, ignoring flamers and melta weapons?

There's nothing you can do to the Avatar.

I mean everyone with 10 Tac Marines gets a Free Flamer and Melta, but they don't work on the Avatar! And bolters only wound it on a six! I call cheese.

Ive had a few people tell me flamers of tzeentch are op, right after wiping out an entire squad on arrival. This was before I started bringing the masque along..
Would definately agree that all armies have their own cheesy tricks, certain ones just have more

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Durza wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:Clearly, CSM, Tau, SoB and Tyranids are OP and should be nerfed out of existence.

Oh, and 3rd necrons. Those guys were ott. I mean, they can get back up on a 4+ AND their vehicle ignores melta and lances! WTF!

And the Avatar. I mean, ignoring flamers and melta weapons?

There's nothing you can do to the Avatar.

I mean everyone with 10 Tac Marines gets a Free Flamer and Melta, but they don't work on the Avatar! And bolters only wound it on a six! I call cheese.

Here's a nutty idea, use a Missile Launcher.

TedNugent wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:

Durza wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:Clearly, CSM, Tau, SoB and Tyranids are OP and should be nerfed out of existence.

Oh, and 3rd necrons. Those guys were ott. I mean, they can get back up on a 4+ AND their vehicle ignores melta and lances! WTF!

And the Avatar. I mean, ignoring flamers and melta weapons?

There's nothing you can do to the Avatar.

I mean everyone with 10 Tac Marines gets a Free Flamer and Melta, but they don't work on the Avatar! And bolters only wound it on a six! I call cheese.

Here's a nutty idea, use a Missile Launcher.

That's the joke...look at the other posts.

You're a silly guy!

There are no OP armies, all have counters and can be beaten if you know how to. Althou some gamers find joy in simpel spamming

No army is OP IMO, Any army has the potential to have you on your knees every game... Even Tau... Er well maybe not them.

Trondheim wrote:There are no OP armies, all have counters and can be beaten if you know how to. Althou some gamers find joy in simpel spamming

Should tell that to the Tryanid player I know who gets destroyed religiously to Valkyries because he cannot close the distance and lacks invulnerability saves.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Gotta laugh at the people that seriously Voted Tau and Daemons OP.

Every army has one thing in it that can be seen as cheesy if you dig deep enough for it.

I am shocked Tau were voted higher than SoBs, SoBs d6 str 8 ap 1 missile launching tank from hell is definitely annoying.

I voted for all of them. Every army can have over and underpowered builds and units. The key to them is using them in the proper proportions, its called army building. If you expect to open ip a book and the answers are beamed down from heaven, this game, like many other games may disappoint. Instead of complaining about how OP this or that codex is, try and learn from your games. Its called experience...

I'll first start by saying it all comes down how you play YOUR army. What's tragic is older codex's MUST build around fighting certain armies in order to compete, let alone survive competitive META communities. These same lists then suffer versus their polar opposites.

Sorry but I threw my hat on the GK...but a second close is Blood Angels and having just now started Necrons, I can see the wicked potential.

I have six regular GK players, all pretty much have the same lists (Purifiers, Riflemen, Vindcares, and Razorbacks) with maybe a few randoms here and there, and are always uphill battles for everyone else in our gaming community to fight. They're not unbeatable but they definitely have some advantages that are excessive (S5/I6 force weapon troops?!?).

Older armies just don't have the tactical flexibility built into their lists to fight against such an effective, utilitarian, and economic army.

Seriously, who voted Tau?

some people hate Tau because when you play a good player they can mow you down.

BUt having played deamons anyone who says they are overpowered is foolish

GK's.

No such thing as OP. Some people need to man up, or not play with their man dollies.

Jstncloud wrote:

Trondheim wrote:There are no OP armies, all have counters and can be beaten if you know how to. Althou some gamers find joy in simpel spamming

Should tell that to the Tryanid player I know who gets destroyed religiously to Valkyries because he cannot close the distance and lacks invulnerability saves.

Right. Then I should tell that to my Guard friend who just had his two thirty man blobs utterly melted by outflanking Genestealers that turn everything into a fine red mulch when they touch it. Or tell him that those Ymgarl Genestealers just happened to pop out and assault his Leman Russ Squadron in the same turn and this scrap a 500 point list in one fell swoop with no idealogical counter.

That poor, poor Tyranid player.

JstnCloud wrote:

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Gotta laugh at the people that seriously Voted Tau and Daemons OP.

Every army has one thing in it that can be seen as cheesy if you dig deep enough for it.

I am shocked Tau were voted higher than SoBs, SoBs d6 str 8 ap 1 missile launching tank from hell is definitely annoying.

No army is overpowered. Cries of OP usually stem from player error or poor luck. Player might wonder why thier Nobs w/ power claws get completely pasted by Halbred toting Grey Knights, expecting a totally different outcome when you throw Strike-Last 2W Models at units with Force Weapons that strike at Initiavtive order. Overpowered. Obviously.

Or when an Imperial Guard player watches as his Autocannon/GL Blob gets cleaned through by a group of screaming-deranged Death Company in a fit of chainswords and power weapons. Or when the Guard player fails to somehow kill a single blood talon dreadnaught with all the god forsaken weapons at his disposal and watches another blob get mowed down with impunity in almost one turn of Combat. Overpowered. Obviously.

5th Edition is getting stale.

I think certain units can be very OP. And when people spam them, their list becomes fairly OP and hard to compete with. For example, a guy in my gaming circle runs 3 Dreadknights for his HS. Now, yes they can be easy to defeat if you're expecting to fight them and can tailor your list to deal with them, but when you've got 7 other vastly different armies to worry about, you can't focus on just the one opponent. Thus, he wins much more often than anyone else. I've built several lists that beat him consistently, but those same lists lose to everyone else for various reasons. It's things like that that make me feel certain armies can be OP. I voted for GK, BA, IG, and SW.

You can't say that there isn't an OP army. The game is made that way. There always seems to be one codex that is stronger then the rest. Its called codex creep. but for the GK players who said there isnt an overpowered army, we believe you. dont worry. Personally the army that has the most cheesy builds is the over powered army. Sisters of battle doing so well is kinda funny but makes a little bit of sense. Grey knights being the highest, that makes total sense. But then again i voted for necrons.

Honestly, I really don't think any army is overpowered. Just many are not updated enough or are left to drift in the time when Dinosaurs walked the earth while races that really don't need it are in the future. These threads always pop up with raging Grey Knight haters and such. When someone plays someone in the overly waac way it's makes an army seem overpowered, when new codex's are released, they are full of competitive builds while armies such as Tau are left with only one or two builds that are vaguely competitive left.

No army is OP some are just more powerful.

SEE my belial and 25 scoring terminators with TH/SS, 5 cyclones a banner and a apothecary plus 3 Landspeeder tornados and 3 AC/LC pred (for 2000 pts)

now i do have armies i have trouble with mixed guard, Tau, My friends hide in cover pew-pew GK termies who thanks to a techamrine have a 2++ cover.

EVery army has a counter stealer spam can rock GKS

Protip - numbers are variables. If you're claiming that no army is over-powered, it means they're all statistically the same.
I can only assume the "there are no over-powered armies" crowd have analysed the damage-per-point values of every single unit in every single codex; and found them identical.
I voted BA, GK and SW; because they are.

I want to vote none of the above. I mean come on, there's a always a way to beat any list out there. Problem is that most people(most, not all) will play an army, get tabled, get pissed and go online to yell about it, then find other people yelling about it, then get whipped into a frenzy and refuse to play that type of list again, never learning how to play against that type of list. I refuse to believe any army is "unbeatable."

I haven't played GK yet, so maybe my opinion will change someday.

beigeknight wrote:I want to vote none of the above. I mean come on, there's a always a way to beat any list out there.

OP!=unplayable.
If I pay 15 points for a unit, and another army gets the same army for 15 points but with a couple of special rules, that army is overpowered.
Fact is some armies are capable of getting a lot more killing power than others.

Testify wrote:

beigeknight wrote:I want to vote none of the above. I mean come on, there's a always a way to beat any list out there.

OP!=unplayable.
If I pay 15 points for a unit, and another army gets the same army for 15 points but with a couple of special rules, that army is overpowered.
Fact is some armies are capable of getting a lot more killing power than others.

If that's the case then like every codex has something OP compared to something else in a different codex. I think this game is too complex to be able to say that one unit is overpowered, it's kind of subjective. Everything has strenghts and weaknesses, even something that has a ton of strenghts. I think the real fact is that some armies are older than others. Someone said above, it's not an issue of being overpowered, it's an issue of being underpowered.

I always laugh when people say "You're only saying the army is OP because you lost" because that's kinda the point. How does one determined that an army is OP but by how often it wins?

I agree that an Army may seem overpowering, but that does'nt mean it IS> I have an IG Friend who , ay 2000pts , runssomething like 16 Chimeras, with ML and HF. In each is either a single squad with a melta, or a PCS with 3 meltas and Flamer.
Another friend has a BA Mech list. Still a crap load of Armour 11-13 vehicles, with assault cannons/ LAzplas, etc.Folks complain its too much to handle. Its not. You just have to figure out HOW. ( IE. My DE blocking the Chimera's rear hatches and haywiring them to death is a great way to take down IG MECH).
One problem is , a lot of Folks Either have a tournament or "Take ALL Comer's " List that actually Isn't and are shocked when it can't perform.
Or: The player with the "OP"'d army actually put it together to take on your particular army that day.

And with that, to the Poster who said DE where OP? Whaaaaaa?

Testify wrote:

beigeknight wrote:I want to vote none of the above. I mean come on, there's a always a way to beat any list out there.

OP!=unplayable.
If I pay 15 points for a unit, and another army gets the same army for 15 points but with a couple of special rules, that army is overpowered.
Fact is some armies are capable of getting a lot more killing power than others.

I understand what you're saying, and there are undoubtedly instances where you are correct, but units don't exist in a vacuum. Two codices may contain the same unit (for sake of argument) with two different point costs, but of course those units have to be taken in the context of the book in which they are found. One book may contain other unit choices, options, special rules, etc that increase or decrease the value of that particular unit.

I'm not going to say the books are all expertly balanced, but it's never as simple as comparing one unit entry to another and shouting "OVERPOWERED!!!"

happygolucky wrote:Its not the case of an army is overpowered, it the list then stereotypical views of the army...

Example:

IG vendetta spam... any one who plays this list will think that IG are OP but most people know that this isn't the case, a further example is Venomspam anyone who plays that will think that DE are op (I am for one, of those people but only because I have only fought venomspam no other types of lists) but they are not.

The only reason why people complain why an army is OP is because of the spam lists and if you look in detail to each case of "Army X is OP because I cant beat them" is mainly because they have fought a spam list, therefore we should not be taking out our aggravation on an new army but more on spam lists...

I've had the hardest time fighting necrons. They outshoot just about everything right now (at their ranges anyways), glance on a 6 (and with all their shots they are going to glance something) which makes armor lists nearly useless, and mind-shackle-scarabs, lord how I hate those scarabs.

I've used a couple of BA lists against Necrons, Armor spam but I could not take the scarab swarms out fast enough and when they got to me it was game over, I've tried melee jump units/death company, while they are great and all a single dude failing his mind-shackle-scarab roll and blasting my squad with his power weapon really ruins my day. I am all for a challenge but I've had more problems fighting necrons than anything else thus far (for me anyways). I'd probably have issues with GK if the guy here playing them fielded dreadknights more often and used more than barebones paladins. But hey, it is probably a good thing he doesn't use his dreadknight that often because the necrons could mind shackle him too and he could just kill himself.

Yes sirree, for the first time yesterday, a Necron player attempted to Mindshackle my Urien Rakarth as he was charging into the frey with a six pack of Grotesques, and I thought " Oh, that 3+ Flesh Gauntlet is gonna suck...."
Luckily , It didn't happen, but I discovered a lot more than ussual about the Necrons. Terrain isssues upon Terrain issues. As hard to put down as it is to keep them down. Their Skimmers ignore my Darklances and where I used to be constantly on the assault, I now find out they may turn that against me.
They may not be OP, but they sure are annoying on all fronts.

I'm amused by the fact that Nids are rated more overpowered than DA. That ought to be enough to invalidate the results here.

captain collius wrote:some people hate Tau because when you play a good player they can mow you down.

BUt having played deamons anyone who says they are overpowered is foolish

Yes, true. They are a little more difficult than: "Place army and fire!" however that still does't mean that they are overpowered.

TedNugent wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Grey Knights can be countered by theoretically any army if the player is good enough.

But that's really not how the game should work, that non-GK (or non-Imperial in general) players basically deal with handicaps and an uphill struggle.

There is no counter to Grey Knights in the Ork Codex. I've looked.

Grey knights are marines, they just have a few oddities. BW bash vs GK can work pretty effectivly, nobsz kill purifiers, boyz kill paladins, pretty much like regular ork v vanilla merines throw boyz at termies they'll eventually die, throw a nobz squad with 3 pk's at a marines squad they dissappear. never charge nobz or warboss at a dreadknight it the opponant has them. outflanking koptas, or rokkit buggies/lootas at that crazy assassin who gets 3d6 +3 for pens. and just make sure you take out transports to slow them down and fight em on your terms.

shoting orks are also pretty awesome v greyknights, 45 lootas, 2 SAG, rokkit buggies x9 , battle wagons w/ kannons or kill kannons, and some retchin troops just pop transports on their side turn 1 and whittle it all down

as for the topic... wolves , everythign but vnailla marines get, but better, and cheaper. even with BW bash they just throw out so many missles I get glances to death, and JoTWW ... just wrong take out my nob so I haave 19 boys, then shoot them dwon so they are 9 and running away due to low leadership and no boss pole

blood angels are powerful but challenging, new necrons are hard to deal with but with only a few games in against em I cna't comment... quantum plating bums me out though, not much i can do vs av13 and pk's hitting on 6's vs that guy who zis 24 and hits a vehicle , or the list that keeps night fighting up, that one is rough on my eldar

G00fySmiley wrote:

Grey knights are marines, they just have a few oddities. BW bash vs GK can work pretty effectivly, nobsz kill purifiers, boyz kill paladins, pretty much like regular ork v vanilla merines throw boyz at termies they'll eventually die, throw a nobz squad with 3 pk's at a marines squad they dissappear. never charge nobz or warboss at a dreadknight it the opponant has them. outflanking koptas, or rokkit buggies/lootas at that crazy assassin who gets 3d6 +3 for pens. and just make sure you take out transports to slow them down and fight em on your terms.

Yeah, just a few oddities, like the one that makes half of your Boyz take a wound before blows are struck every single round of combat irrespective of whose turn it is? Or the other fun rule that lets every GK in the Codex with default equipment instant kill your Nobz and your Warboss?

You do realize that Purifiers have instant death sticks and Paladins have Feel no Pain and a 2+ save? How do you expect strength 4 Boyz to get thru a 2+ with FNP without Power Fists?

Also, I think you'd be pretty surprised how many Battlewagons the right Purifier list can take down in a turn, and then you get to enjoy Cleansing Flame on each of your assaulting units.

Your advice didn't really help.

G00fySmiley wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Grey Knights can be countered by theoretically any army if the player is good enough.

But that's really not how the game should work, that non-GK (or non-Imperial in general) players basically deal with handicaps and an uphill struggle.

There is no counter to Grey Knights in the Ork Codex. I've looked.

Grey knights are marines, they just have a few oddities. BW bash vs GK can work pretty effectivly, nobsz kill purifiers, boyz kill paladins, pretty much like regular ork v vanilla merines throw boyz at termies they'll eventually die, throw a nobz squad with 3 pk's at a marines squad they dissappear. never charge nobz or warboss at a dreadknight it the opponant has them. outflanking koptas, or rokkit buggies/lootas at that crazy assassin who gets 3d6 +3 for pens. and just make sure you take out transports to slow them down and fight em on your terms.

shoting orks are also pretty awesome v greyknights, 45 lootas, 2 SAG, rokkit buggies x9 , battle wagons w/ kannons or kill kannons, and some retchin troops just pop transports on their side turn 1 and whittle it all down

As an Ork player, I have to tell you that it's not that simple.

First, GKs are not "just marines with a few oddities". The difference between storm bolters and normal bolters has a big effect. What makes Orks good against vanilla marines is that the marines are static targets and can only do a little damage before the Orks are assaulting . GKs, on the other hand are not force to stand still and are far more mobile, staying out of the Ork's hands to do more damage. Even psyfle dreads are mobile , not that any ork would want to assault one.

BW bash rely largely on taking several nob squads to get the Battlewagons, who dies easily to any Grey Knight squads. Purifiers actually do well against Nobs because they have 2 attacks standard, so they can have 20 attacks that can instakill nobs, ignoring any halberds or deamonhammers. The Nobz will win the fight, if they were tricked out for wounds abuse then what they lost would still be more than what the GK player lost. Attacking paladins with Boyz is also a really bad idea, because they're still 2 wound terminators. A twenty strong choppa boyz with a PK nob will kill 1.61 paladins (slightly less if the PK attacks get moved onto a sword and a lot less if they have FNP). And in both cases that's with the Orks getting the charge. If they get charged, the paladins have 30 instant death attacks before the nobz can even swing back, and the boy will not only get shot before getting assault but the Paladins also have Holocaust which is a zogging S5 large blast plate.

Killing their vehicles is also a problem. The Ork way of dealing with vehicles is not destroying them, but stunning them then moving on to another target, which doesn't work with GKs because of fortitude. Focusing on destroying a target means having to use multiple squads to deal with them, meaning that's less anti-tank to go around. Not to mention that Psyfle dreads could rip buggies and deff koptas (and trukks, and killa kans) with ease and can do serious damage to BWs if they manage to get that side armor.

And your shooty Ork list sucks, because you got a mix of moving short range units and static long range units that don't work together, and all those units cost a total of 1670, assuming the grot squad is only 10 plus the runtherd, and that's before you add anything else (such as putting 'ard case or big shootas on the BWs for more durability), and that list would be torn limb from limb if the army outflanks or deep strikes

Not to mention that one of the Power Klaw wounds can be moved onto a Paladin with a warding staff if the GK player so chooses.

They don't even need to take a warding staff if Draigo is in the squad

TedNugent wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Grey knights are marines, they just have a few oddities. BW bash vs GK can work pretty effectivly, nobsz kill purifiers, boyz kill paladins, pretty much like regular ork v vanilla merines throw boyz at termies they'll eventually die, throw a nobz squad with 3 pk's at a marines squad they dissappear. never charge nobz or warboss at a dreadknight it the opponant has them. outflanking koptas, or rokkit buggies/lootas at that crazy assassin who gets 3d6 +3 for pens. and just make sure you take out transports to slow them down and fight em on your terms.

Yeah, just a few oddities, like the one that makes half of your Boyz take a wound before blows are struck every single round of combat irrespective of whose turn it is? Or the other fun rule that lets every GK in the Codex with default equipment instant kill your Nobz and your Warboss?

You do realize that Purifiers have instant death sticks and Paladins have Feel no Pain and a 2+ save? How do you expect strength 4 Boyz to get thru a 2+ with FNP without Power Fists?

Also, I think you'd be pretty surprised how many Battlewagons the right Purifier list can take down in a turn, and then you get to enjoy Cleansing Flame on each of your assaulting units.

Your advice didn't really help.

nobz are what goes into purifiers, the one hit to each nob isn't so bad.


if you can get the 19 boys w/ nob and pk go at pallies after you put some wounds on em you might lose but you'll do some good dmg.

I also tend to run 9 rokkit buggies, and rokkits at pallies, rokkits on pallies once transports open, also lootas on pallies. they are rough, but doable. and one that works well is dedicate a burna wagon to hitting pallies once they are on table, then charge with nob, bp and pk for the finish

if you can pump enough shots to get 3-4 wounds on them first (maybe 1-2 instant death due to rokkits) the rest from a round or 2 of loota fire

9 tl rokkits from buggies 1.3 hits 1.1 wound total for 9 rokkits 3.3 wounds 2+ save .55 chance instant kill

15 lootas 2 shots each 30 shots hits on 5/6 10 hits, wounds on 2/s 8.3 wounds 2+ w/ fnp .7 wounds

assuming a 5 man decked squad. burna wagon hits I run 8-9 burnas in a wagon and the big mek in w/ burna, assuming 9 templates can hit 4 pallies
36 hits wounds on 4's, 18 wounds, saves on 2's 3 wounds fnp 1.5 wounds (pallies are rough)
19 boys and nob shoot 20 shots 6.6 hit , 3.3 wound, 2+ armour w/ fnp .28 wounds
19 boys charge 3 die before hitting, 16 @ 4 attacks 64 hits on 4's 32 hits, 16 wounds, 2+ armour 2.56 wounds fnp 1.28 wounds
5 more orks die
nob goes 2 hits, 1.7 wounds, assuming 1 stave .6 chance of instant death

orks fearless 6 wounds 1 save made 9 boyz and nob wrap to next combat w/ 3.5 wounds on pallies possibly 1 instant death (if lucky 2 but we'll assume not)

3 die before hitting
6 hitting on 4's 9 hits 3 wounds, 2+ armour with fnp .25 wounds
5 more die
nob 1.5 hits 1 wound 2+ inv 1/6 chance of instant death
orks run

4.05 wounds on pallies hopefully 2 were instant killed though likely only 1 and 3 wounds on them

unload with rokikts and lootas

burna wagon tries to cleans up what is left making sure to move 7 inches with rpj , if you are lucky you stripped fnp in there somewhere or the warding stave in 1st combat but those aren't being taken into account

you lose a group of boys and it uses alot of shots, but really the point for me of throwing boys and nob at em is kick in some wounds and stall them from moving much for a turn to shoot at em again


I agree GK's are rough I'm just saying we can still play em, its challenging but imo its an easier win than blood angels

I've had good luck with ym 45 loota 2 SAG list vs gk's , you might nto like it, but Luke but its a fun list I like to play, and the SAG as a ap2 large blast does pretty good v paladins when it hits for 8+ str... though admittedly you still have to hit, its ork shooting which imo is for fun not really seriousness, but if you get a str 8+ and miss I'd use my ammo runt to reroll and hope for a hit

I'd rather play BAs any day of the week than GKs, even with all their !@$#ing ridiculous toys, and so would most people judging from the poll results.

Even their 5 USR models are better than instant death and psychic powers that instant wound 50% of a Boyz mob.

Using anything that isn't instant death against Paladins is a non-starter, and there's almost nothing in the dex that's AP 2 or AP1 that's also instant death, meaning you're highly dependent on Power Klaws. I actually made the case in another thread for Nob Squads against Paladins, else as another poster mentioned in that thread Kustom Mega Blasters on Kans might be a good idea, certainly a better idea than !@#%ing Lootas. You'd better be saving those Loota shots for their Psyfleman Dreads anyway.

My problem is not so much Nobs or their instant death rods in that sense, it's more the fact that they can ID any of your ICs short of Ghaz and your Boyz mobs would have a hard time, as in it'd almost be a waste of an attempt to even try unless you're planning on building a casualty mountain, against -either- Paladins or Purifiers. If you want to build a convincing case for Orks being able to defeat a Purifier list, I'd prefer you specified a points value and gave me a list. You don't have to do that math hammer, I will gladly chew through the numbers given something viable. It's what I've been doing but I've not found anything with convincing results thus far.

--------------------

That a 150 point mob of Boyz geared for close combat and set in a 130 pt transport would be incapable of defeating with any degree of certainty a 150 point Purifier mob built for shooting/generalist is just flat out !@#$ing ridiculous. There is no excuse for it. We have a close combat army. Slugga Boyz are close combat units. It's a tremendous amount of opportunity cost to say, all right, I'm going to field 20 of these guys and throw them in a wagon, oh wait, the wagon is a smoldering ruin from the Psycannon fire and now on top of that I get Cleansing Flame wounds. It's nuts.

What's even more absurd is that the army most vulnerable to the Psychic powers in the GK dex is the army with literally not a single piece of Wargear that provides any kind of Psychic resistance, not even -1 to Leadership roll, not anything whatsoever.

Psyfleman Dreads ID Nobz and ignore FNP and 'eavy armor, so you're basically stuck with a 5++ save against a model with 4 TL BS4 shots.

I just don't see a Battlewagon rush list working.

I was actually leaning more towards Kan Wall list, but the number of Kans a decent GK list can kill in one turn is horrifying.

Who are these people who think Tau, Nids & Eldar are OP?

TedNugent wrote:I'd rather play BAs any day of the week than GKs, even with all their !@$#ing ridiculous toys, and so would most people judging from the poll results.

Even their 5 USR models are better than instant death and psychic powers that instant wound 50% of a Boyz mob.

Using anything that isn't instant death against Paladins is a non-starter, and there's almost nothing in the dex that's AP 2 or AP1 that's also instant death, meaning you're highly dependent on Power Klaws. I actually made the case in another thread for Nob Squads against Paladins, else as another poster mentioned in that thread Kustom Mega Blasters on Kans might be a good idea, certainly a better idea than !@#%ing Lootas. You'd better be saving those Loota shots for their Psyfleman Dreads anyway.

My problem is not so much Nobs or their instant death rods in that sense, it's more the fact that they can ID any of your ICs short of Ghaz and your Boyz mobs would have a hard time, as in it'd almost be a waste of an attempt to even try unless you're planning on building a casualty mountain, against -either- Paladins or Purifiers. If you want to build a convincing case for Orks being able to defeat a Purifier list, I'd prefer you specified a points value and gave me a list. You don't have to do that math hammer, I will gladly chew through the numbers given something viable. It's what I've been doing but I've not found anything with convincing results thus far.

--------------------

That a 150 point mob of Boyz geared for close combat and set in a 130 pt transport would be incapable of defeating with any degree of certainty a 150 point Purifier mob built for shooting/generalist is just flat out !@#$ing ridiculous. There is no excuse for it. We have a close combat army. Slugga Boyz are close combat units. It's a tremendous amount of opportunity cost to say, all right, I'm going to field 20 of these guys and throw them in a wagon, oh wait, the wagon is a smoldering ruin from the Psycannon fire and now on top of that I get Cleansing Flame wounds. It's nuts.

What's even more absurd is that the army most vulnerable to the Psychic powers in the GK dex is the army with literally not a single piece of Wargear that provides any kind of Psychic resistance, not even -1 to Leadership roll, not anything whatsoever.

Psyfleman Dreads ID Nobz and ignore FNP and 'eavy armor, so you're basically stuck with a 5++ save against a model with 4 TL BS4 shots.

I just don't see a Battlewagon rush list working.

I was actually leaning more towards Kan Wall list, but the number of Kans a decent GK list can kill in one turn is horrifying.

agree to disagree on how we play, the guy i play who uses paladins and purifiers its the only thing I know that gives me a chance. I've gotten luck and knocked hit pallies out with the boys and unlucky he made all saves and pallies ripped it all apart but on average I can wipe them with the above strat. though I probably only have a 20% win rate he's rockign about a 40% the rest are draws. in capture and draw I can usually zip around and contest everything.

it is also possible you are playing a better grey knights player than I am and I playing better blood angels players (at least better than me)... blood angels just show up in storm ravens and kick my teeth in

just trying to help out with how I manage em. I am sad that the ork dex is showing its age. I'm hoping a new dex will give us more neat stuff, I'm actually really hoping for mob up to be brought back

I'm getting a kick outta the fact that some people actually voted Tau and Eldar as overpowered. Oh man, thats a good one.

This is a confusing question, at least to me. I don't know quite what measuring stick we are using for 'Overpowered.' Is it because they have more/better rules than a comparable army? You could then make the argument that Blood Angels are clearly overpowered in relation to Vanilla Marines, since they have almost everything that the Vanillas do, but with extra stuff on top of it. But by that token, then both of those Codexes (it sets my teeth on edge to write 'Codexes' rather than 'Codices,' but the former is the only one I've seen GW employees use) are overpowerd in relation to the Dark Angels.

On the whole, I think that there may very well be some differences in power levels of various Codexes. In fact, some of them may be very good against another. However, I don't think that any of these gaps in power are so vast that they cannot be overcome with good tactics.

Ultimately, I said Tyranids. It isn't that I think they are unbeatable. It's just that I've never defeated them. Heck, I've not only never done it, I've never even seen it done.

Jimsolo wrote:This is a confusing question, at least to me. I don't know quite what measuring stick we are using for 'Overpowered.' Is it because they have more/better rules than a comparable army? You could then make the argument that Blood Angels are clearly overpowered in relation to Vanilla Marines, since they have almost everything that the Vanillas do, but with extra stuff on top of it. But by that token, then both of those Codexes (it sets my teeth on edge to write 'Codexes' rather than 'Codices,' but the former is the only one I've seen GW employees use) are overpowerd in relation to the Dark Angels.

On the whole, I think that there may very well be some differences in power levels of various Codexes. In fact, some of them may be very good against another. However, I don't think that any of these gaps in power are so vast that they cannot be overcome with good tactics.

Ultimately, I said Tyranids. It isn't that I think they are unbeatable. It's just that I've never defeated them. Heck, I've not only never done it, I've never even seen it done.

Blood Angels:
Assault Marines- 5 man squad, melta/flamer, sgt with PFist, Razorback TL Plasma/Lascannon.

vs

Codex Marines:
Tactical Marines- 10 man squad, melta/flamer. sgt with PFist, Transport of choice.

It is far more expensive to field the basic troop choices for Codex Marines (unless you run scouts and a heavy flamer will ruin their day). On top of that Blood Angels have everything we do (almost anyways) and do everything better (see fast vehicles). A good player (BA) vs a good player (codex) would likely result in BAs winning, why? They can spam more armor than codex marines, their units are better in melee so they can take our range element away, and some of their HQs are insane.

Sorry but tactics or not BA blows Codex Marines away. I will concede the fact that tactics play a key role in things but a if both players are sound then all that is left is the rules they are using.

Edit:
Beating Nids, don't get into melee with them, run transports so the Doom of lame does not leadership eat your units and kite them with fast units (Valkyries, Hellhounds, Land Speeders etc etc). I've watched a nid player pretty much give up when he realized that he could not catch the fast units and was getting chewed up by ap1-2 weapons.

I think part of the problem is paper rock scissors, JimSolo thinks Nids are rough, with my orks I can turn any nids list I've seen to date into squig juice, but vs my space marines or Eldar they can be rough.

To me with my orks space wolves, blood angels and necrons are the most difficult for me. grey knights are difficult but I win more than the other 3 (I've never beat space wolves... I'm sure ti is possible but I've never pulled it off)

with eldar new necrons with keeping everything night fighting and the 12 inch charge scarabs are really hard. but my eldar can destroy space wolves grey knights or blood angels usually ... but will die to nids, orks, and IG but it might just be how I run them... but I'm not a very good eldar player so who knows

then my marines which I run as vanilla marines are meh they do ok vs everything but don't' really excel vs anything. but again I put very little thought into them, and rarely play mem... definitely the simplest army i play but i agaim might just not be good at them

worldwarme wrote:I agree that an Army may seem overpowering, but that does'nt mean it IS> I have an IG Friend who , ay 2000pts , runssomething like 16 Chimeras, with ML and HF. In each is either a single squad with a melta, or a PCS with 3 meltas and Flamer.
Another friend has a BA Mech list. Still a crap load of Armour 11-13 vehicles, with assault cannons/ LAzplas, etc.Folks complain its too much to handle. Its not. You just have to figure out HOW. ( IE. My DE blocking the Chimera's rear hatches and haywiring them to death is a great way to take down IG MECH).
One problem is , a lot of Folks Either have a tournament or "Take ALL Comer's " List that actually Isn't and are shocked when it can't perform.
Or: The player with the "OP"'d army actually put it together to take on your particular army that day.

And with that, to the Poster who said DE where OP? Whaaaaaa?

Huh?

If the exits are blocked, they can still get out unless the vehicle is 100% surrounded with a layer of impassable terrain and/or enemy models.

From the 5e Rulebook, page 67, section titled Disembarking, first paragraph, starting on line 6:

"If any models cannot disembark because of enemies or because they would end up in impassible terrain, the unit can perform an 'emergency disembarkation' - the models are deployed anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull, but the unit can't do anything else for the rest of the turn. If even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark."

Unless I'm missing an FAQ somewhere that says that emergency disembarkations are not possible if it's an involuntary disembarkation due to the vehicle being destroyed...

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2012/04/24/tournament-circuit-adepticon-championship-results-and-lists/

Top 5 on this site were the top 5 voted here on Dakka to be 'OP.' I thought that was interesting

I voted Eldar...

BECAUSE I HAVEN'T BEATEN THEM ONCE IN 20 YEARS OF PLAYING 40K!!!*

*sorry for the caps.

To explain how tau is getting votes, I voted for them as a "none" option. I knew people wouldn't take it seriously so that was the best I could do.

Now when observing this thread I do see a common feature of arguments from this thread where it the people who play GK say there not OP, and there are the obvious people who play against them, lose then say they are OP.

I am for one with the people who say GK are OP, and the GK players give us stratagys on how to beat them, and Ive been looking at this and can I just say, whoever said you can kill paladins with 20 boys... I tried 40 boyz on a big squad of paladins, and still got my teeth kicked in, the only point I can say for tactics against draigo is charge up ghazzy with his WAAAGH with a nob squad with a pain boy and a WAAAGH banner and the rest equipped with big choppas that way stick the blows on the nobz and get ghazzy on draigo that how I killed him, also Ork shooting? with lootas you have to pray you roll a 3+ to at least get some damage...

All I can say is with tactics regarding GK mobility is gonna be you key, and Ive fought them with CSM, and have yet to win...

To all those who say no army is OP and do not have GK, I take my hat off to you (unless you have venom spam) and have a cookie .

Without a shadow of a doubt this must go to SW. Too many reasons to properly enumerate.

I have to say, since I started Grey knights all I have heard is people complaining that they are "too overpowered"...

And then theres the people who actually try and plan around an enemies strengths, rather than just moan, who generally just say "they are really expensive space marines, who die just as fast as cheap space marines". Which to me sounds a lot more accurate.

As soon as all the wound-allocation shenanigans gets stopped, Grey Knights will just be like any other space marine army.

Which means most people will still moan that they are overpowered, but hey you cant win them all eh!

Edit: before all the hatemongers start shouting at me, I'm gonna say that I dont play any special characters, and therefore all the grey knight "OPness" does not apply to me. No draigowings, no crowe purifier spams. I personally disagree with wound allocations and rhino/razorback spams too. but to each their own.

So you don't use power builds and therefore you think the strength of the GK codex has been overstated? Why don't you try playing some power builds, or better yet, try to beat a GK power build with one of your GK builds?

Space wolves by far their codex is written to break the rules ... And you guy that say grey knights its just cause you have never played them. They have next to no anti tank power and all their stuff is really expensive.

I've played Grey Knights, mate.

I'd rather face SW any day.

The GK do lack the ability to crack AV 14, but not everyone HAS AV14 boxes to hide in.

My Orks, Daemons and DE all have far easier times with SW than GK (one player, equally experienced with both dexes, is one of my usual opponents.).

I'd take 4 JOTWW on top of longfangspam over Psy-ammo, unsupressable vehicles and cleansing flame and still smile for getting off easier.

They die like other SM to Plasma, Melta and other low AP stuff, but DE and Orks somewhat rely on being able to supress the enemy tanks if they can't kill them outright, and i'm not even going into how Daemons are vs GK .. . Sure it's fluffy that GK own daemons, but in the old Daemonhunters Dex the daemons got a rule to balance their effectiveness vs Daemons, in the name of Game Balance, which is now a tad lacking.

All armies should have an even shot of killing each other off, but that wouls be in an ideal universe where balance actually existed game-wide..

Ascalam wrote:I've played Grey Knights, mate.

I'd rather face SW any day.

The GK do lack the ability to crack AV 14, but not everyone HAS AV14 boxes to hide in.

My Orks, Daemons and DE all have far easier times with SW than GK (one player, equally experienced with both dexes, is one of my usual opponents.).

I'd take 4 JOTWW on top of longfangspam over Psy-ammo, unsupressable vehicles and cleansing flame and still smile for getting off easier.

They die like other SM to Plasma, Melta and other low AP stuff, but DE and Orks somewhat rely on being able to supress the enemy tanks if they can't kill them outright, and i'm not even going into how Daemons are vs GK .. . Sure it's fluffy that GK own daemons, but in the old Daemonhunters Dex the daemons got a rule to balance their effectiveness vs Daemons, in the name of Game Balance, which is now a tad lacking.

All armies should have an even shot of killing each other off, but that wouls be in an ideal universe where balance actually existed game-wide..

The benefit that GK do have is the ability to potentially pop Hammerhand 3 times on one squad (if they do things right) and with the right weapons they could easily be swinging at str 10, plus the libby who could give them more d6 to pen vehicles. Sure they do not have as many range options but their melee can most definitely take care of it. Their Stormravens can punch av 14, and if they build it with psy-ammo they may have issues with av 14 but str 7 (+1) heavy 4, rending, twin-linked, is pretty sick on their assault cannon. They have dreadnoughts, lascannon. And they have dreadknights (DCCW) so str 10 (and do monstrous creatures get 2d6 to pen?)

Anyways, they lack predators and some options like that, but they more than make up for that with what they do have. Furthermore, use the SR to get your melee anti-everything into range.

GK are pretty insane, when someone uses their awesome stuff right.

GK are either broken or way too expensive, it varies.
CSM are too expensive
DE are too cheap
Eldar are too cheap

You can find something wrong with any army. Deal with it.

Lightning Shadows wrote:GK are either broken or way too expensive, it varies.
CSM are too expensive
DE are too cheap
Eldar are too cheap

You can find something wrong with any army. Deal with it.

thats probably the first time i've heard an argulent that eldar are to cheap. most people say some units are priced right or overcosted for the points, elaborate please where you think they are to cheap

No army as a whole is broken. Every army has broken builds (Tau: Fifteen Crisis suits, nine Broadsides, twelve Fire Warriors. It's a legal army). Some armies have more broken builds than others (Grey Knights have a very easy time coming up with a broken list out of the basic plastic kits and some obviously overpowered units that everyone knows about). Some broken builds are easier to play than others (Ravenwing can be horribly, horribly deadly in the hands of an experienced player, but in the hands of an amateur it's a joke).

At the end of the day, determining whether a list is broken or not is only good for one thing: bragging rights when you slaughter a 'broken' list with a 'useless' one because some poor shmuck thinks Paladins as Troops is a substitute for knowing what the heck he's doing.

Oh im sure GK can come up with stupidly powerful units. In fact I know they can. For now.

And seeing as all those models take wounds just as easily as a standard space marine terminator (im talking about paladins atm, as that seems to be the main complain people have), are a lot more expensive, and yet are HIGHLY susceptible to insta-death... I play as Dark Eldar too, and Dark lances being Strength 8, I believe, means that they can ruin paladin squads?

a few decent lance hits (which is easy for a DE player to fit into his list) and thats 2 or 3 dead paladins, no wound allocations, and theres 160 points gone. As well as a third of an entire paladin squad. I may be wrong here, im only doing this off the top of my head. 30 seconds of thought lol. But if I was fielding my DE against a GK player, I'd certainly be including Lances in my list.

If the pallys are in stormravens, then shoot down the stormravens. Even in a 2000 point game, if there is 2 squads of paladins and 2 stormravens, they wont be fielding an awful lot of other stuff, as that is over 1000points tied up in 10x paladins and 2x AV12 skimmers. include draigo and a librarian in that and its closer to 1500points. And from what I hear, stormravens are far from difficult to shoot down.

Also I did look into the whole 3x hammerhand thing, which is very potent to be sure. Except it does mean the unit ends up costing something like 200+200+unit cost, (im assuming its librarian + GM + squad) so if its terminators then thats a unit costing about 850points for 12 models. Yeh sure they would then be strength 7, but they risk 3 POTW every turn they try it, and if the dice rolls dont go in their favour, that would seem to cost them an awful lot.

GKs seem like they are stupidly powerful, if you never roll anything below a 3. If however you are a mere mortal man, and roll a few 1's now and then, then they seem to die, and die hard. With a vengeance. And they have very little room for redundancies.

I wont argue that there are definatley a couple of flaws in the GK list, but im still pretty certain thats its only because they are still running on the 5th edition rules. Im quietly confident that Paladins will lose the ability to allocate wounds in that crazy way they do. And I'll be HAPPY to see it go, as it is a stupid exploit that people are using in my opinion. And once that has gone I'm sure there will be a lot less paladins being fielded by those pesky competitive players.

Other than that, they seem to me to be a very expensive, low model count army that has some highly powerful but expensive units. Which im pretty sure is what they were always supposed to be. They are formed from the geneseed of the Emperor Himself, they should be pretty damn good.

PLEASE READ: Im not an expert, im just replying to the opinions expressed here with opinions and ideas of my own. Im happy to be proven wrong, as it would simply be educating me further on my own army lists, and thats why I am here, to learn.
If you respond to me with anything other than polite discussion I will probably ignore you

This kinda turned into a rant anyway, not really sure why. I guess I get very defensive over my choices. It just seems to me there are plenty of ways of beating a GK list, its just a matter of tactics and planning.

Jstncloud wrote:

Ascalam wrote:I've played Grey Knights, mate.

I'd rather face SW any day.

The GK do lack the ability to crack AV 14, but not everyone HAS AV14 boxes to hide in.

My Orks, Daemons and DE all have far easier times with SW than GK (one player, equally experienced with both dexes, is one of my usual opponents.).

I'd take 4 JOTWW on top of longfangspam over Psy-ammo, unsupressable vehicles and cleansing flame and still smile for getting off easier.

They die like other SM to Plasma, Melta and other low AP stuff, but DE and Orks somewhat rely on being able to supress the enemy tanks if they can't kill them outright, and i'm not even going into how Daemons are vs GK .. . Sure it's fluffy that GK own daemons, but in the old Daemonhunters Dex the daemons got a rule to balance their effectiveness vs Daemons, in the name of Game Balance, which is now a tad lacking.

All armies should have an even shot of killing each other off, but that wouls be in an ideal universe where balance actually existed game-wide..

The benefit that GK do have is the ability to potentially pop Hammerhand 3 times on one squad (if they do things right) and with the right weapons they could easily be swinging at str 10, plus the libby who could give them more d6 to pen vehicles. Sure they do not have as many range options but their melee can most definitely take care of it. Their Stormravens can punch av 14, and if they build it with psy-ammo they may have issues with av 14 but str 7 (+1) heavy 4, rending, twin-linked, is pretty sick on their assault cannon. They have dreadnoughts, lascannon. And they have dreadknights (DCCW) so str 10 (and do monstrous creatures get 2d6 to pen?)

Anyways, they lack predators and some options like that, but they more than make up for that with what they do have. Furthermore, use the SR to get your melee anti-everything into range.

GK are pretty insane, when someone uses their awesome stuff right.

Dreadknights are MC (2d6 + str pen) but don't benefit from the DCCW as they aren't walkers. They are still plenty rippy vs vehicles in CC.

I'll revise my comment to 'they struggle with AV 14 at range' if it's more helpful that way, but then so do my Orks

AnomanderRake wrote:No army as a whole is broken. Every army has broken builds (Tau: Fifteen Crisis suits, nine Broadsides, twelve Fire Warriors. It's a legal army).

Legal, but hardly broken. Works great against GK. And that's about it.

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Since when could Ne(w)crons Tank shock? Most vehicles are skimmers and I'm sure (not 100% though) that Nonoliths can no longer Tank Shock either.

Sorry if I'm going off topic. On topic however there are some armies that have it easier than others, but if you're not willing to adapt and learn to the new stuff then you're not really growing or gaining any experience as a 40K general IMO.

No army is over powered just some army's are a hell of lot easier to use than others

Xirmant wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:So I played a game this passed weekend against Necrons and boy was I blown away by some of their new stuff. Not only did it confuse the bejeebus out of me but the mind-shackle-scarabs and 36 inch tank shocks were completely catching me off guard. I've caught a bunch of crap for playing some games as Blood Angels. Since then we've had Necrons and Space Wolves fielded (as well as some Grey Kinghts) and I have seen some crazy stuff, stuff that made me feel a lot better about playing BAs from time to time since I could be using something else that is far more crazy (at least to me anyways).

Anyways, thought I'd get some feedback from Dakka.

Since when could Ne(w)crons Tank shock? Most vehicles are skimmers and I'm sure (not 100% though) that Nonoliths can no longer Tank Shock either.

Sorry if I'm going off topic. On topic however there are some armies that have it easier than others, but if you're not willing to adapt and learn to the new stuff then you're not really growing or gaining any experience as a 40K general IMO.

It is the only 'Tank' in their army I believe. (even if it is a skimmer it also has the tank special rule).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ravnak wrote:No army is over powered just some army's are a hell of lot easier to use than others

Respectfully disagree, see Blood Angels compared to Codex Marines, they have 99% of our tricks and none of our weaknesses. (Lets face it, TFCs and LSSs are just not that great compared to Baal Predators, Furiosos, and Priests).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:Oh im sure GK can come up with stupidly powerful units. In fact I know they can. For now.

And seeing as all those models take wounds just as easily as a standard space marine terminator (im talking about paladins atm, as that seems to be the main complain people have), are a lot more expensive, and yet are HIGHLY susceptible to insta-death... I play as Dark Eldar too, and Dark lances being Strength 8, I believe, means that they can ruin paladin squads?

a few decent lance hits (which is easy for a DE player to fit into his list) and thats 2 or 3 dead paladins, no wound allocations, and theres 160 points gone. As well as a third of an entire paladin squad. I may be wrong here, im only doing this off the top of my head. 30 seconds of thought lol. But if I was fielding my DE against a GK player, I'd certainly be including Lances in my list.

If the pallys are in stormravens, then shoot down the stormravens. Even in a 2000 point game, if there is 2 squads of paladins and 2 stormravens, they wont be fielding an awful lot of other stuff, as that is over 1000points tied up in 10x paladins and 2x AV12 skimmers. include draigo and a librarian in that and its closer to 1500points. And from what I hear, stormravens are far from difficult to shoot down.

Also I did look into the whole 3x hammerhand thing, which is very potent to be sure. Except it does mean the unit ends up costing something like 200+200+unit cost, (im assuming its librarian + GM + squad) so if its terminators then thats a unit costing about 850points for 12 models. Yeh sure they would then be strength 7, but they risk 3 POTW every turn they try it, and if the dice rolls dont go in their favour, that would seem to cost them an awful lot.

GKs seem like they are stupidly powerful, if you never roll anything below a 3. If however you are a mere mortal man, and roll a few 1's now and then, then they seem to die, and die hard. With a vengeance. And they have very little room for redundancies.

I wont argue that there are definatley a couple of flaws in the GK list, but im still pretty certain thats its only because they are still running on the 5th edition rules. Im quietly confident that Paladins will lose the ability to allocate wounds in that crazy way they do. And I'll be HAPPY to see it go, as it is a stupid exploit that people are using in my opinion. And once that has gone I'm sure there will be a lot less paladins being fielded by those pesky competitive players.

Other than that, they seem to me to be a very expensive, low model count army that has some highly powerful but expensive units. Which im pretty sure is what they were always supposed to be. They are formed from the geneseed of the Emperor Himself, they should be pretty damn good.

PLEASE READ: Im not an expert, im just replying to the opinions expressed here with opinions and ideas of my own. Im happy to be proven wrong, as it would simply be educating me further on my own army lists, and thats why I am here, to learn.
If you respond to me with anything other than polite discussion I will probably ignore you

This kinda turned into a rant anyway, not really sure why. I guess I get very defensive over my choices. It just seems to me there are plenty of ways of beating a GK list, its just a matter of tactics and planning.

Just want to point out Paladins have invulnerability saves. I know they have 5+ innately however I cannot remember if their standard weapons increase this to 4s in assaults or at all times. so that is generally at least a 2+/4+ with 2HP and FNP if you run the apothecary. The issue is if you do not take them down with instant death then FNP with wound allocation is insane, assuming they do not pack them into storm ravens.

That and it would take the firepower of half the army to take down that one unit that way. It would be like saying that using Deestators to take out the unit would be the best way to deal with them as SM. Yes, 4 lascannon would work quite well, but woudn't there be something else you'd want to be shooting them at?

DE transports have DL. You can take as many as nine (counting elites), and if they were all firing you would hit six guys on average, wound five, and then have 1/3 make those inv saves (assuming it's 5+ -so about 2 deaths)...... or you could fire them at the razorbacks, Stormravens and Psy-dreads that are downing your vehicles like flies... You could give them disintegrators to deal with heavy infantry (AP 2 and 3 shots is nice for that) but then they have next to no chance of hurting a vehicle, and the vehicles are where the infantry are going to be hiding most of the time.

Ravagers can take DL also, and will hit with 2 per turn, on average, but they are really better off tankhunting..

DE troops can take DL too, one to a unit. They have to be sitting in a stationary raider or outside a vehicle to use them, and a stationary raider isn't that tough, and less so when being autohit in CC Trueborn and Scourges can take more, but again can't fire them on the move, which sacrifices the DE's main advantage, speed.

Blasters and Blast pistols are S8, AP 2 , right enough, but they are short ranged, pricy and require the unit to be in charge range of whoever they are shooting (just about.. certainly in shooting range) in the open (usually, anyway) and/or on a slow moving AV 10 skimmer, open topped. When those things go up (and they will) the occupants generally take serious casualties due to low armour and toughness.

A Razorwing is my preferred anti-infantry weapon, not DL spam which is far better used for the purpose it was intended for, antitank.

A splinter cannon, 4 missiles and disintegrators will make a mess out of most infantry, een if it does then mean that a single guy with a storm bolter (or even a bolt pistol) can then shoot it down


*edit - math *

Well current edition is grey knights no doubt. But Recently I did a test. I pitted my fourth edition space marines. With one of the most cheesiest things I could do. I took an apoclaypse army. And My friend had an army of grey knights so I gave him 2,000 points of my grey knight army. And we had a 4,000 point battle. I deployed 10 squads of space marines. (1st company rules from Apocalypse Reloaded) Heres that catch....
Each squad had 1 librarian, 1 captain and 1 chaplain. They were all veteran squads. With Artifcer armor, power weapons and combi-meltas for each member of the squad... Oh and they had feel no pain. Inflitration, Rentless, Fearless, Furious Charge and Acute Senses. And jump packs. You want to call cheese Thats cheese. In 4 turns his army was on the run as my army slaughtered everything in its path. Oh land raiders goodbye! Theres some real cheese for. Thats why I like my fourth edition codex. I could cheese the living snot out of people. And it was completely legal! Terminator honors allows you to select from the armory for each member that has it. Everyone in a veteran squad can take terminator honors.

But anyway. From what I have seen Grey Knights with Dakka Dreads are torture for regular armies.

Though in all honesty if you play smart and hide. He can't hit you.

Thats why i use my fourth ed codex sometimes to kill people that use cheese lists. It makes them think twice before deploying a cheesy army. Because if I am nearby and the city calls. The Wanderers will show up to kick them in the nads. Captain PLANET style.

Asherian Command wrote:Well current edition is grey knights no doubt. But Recently I did a test. I pitted my fourth edition space marines. With one of the most cheesiest things I could do. I took an apoclaypse army. And My friend had an army of grey knights so I gave him 2,000 points of my grey knight army. And we had a 4,000 point battle. I deployed 10 squads of space marines. (1st company rules from Apocalypse Reloaded) Heres that catch....
Each squad had 1 librarian, 1 captain and 1 chaplain. They were all veteran squads. With Artifcer armor, power weapons and combi-meltas for each member of the squad... Oh and they had feel no pain. Inflitration, Rentless, Fearless, Furious Charge and Acute Senses. And jump packs. You want to call cheese Thats cheese. In 4 turns his army was on the run as my army slaughtered everything in its path. Oh land raiders goodbye! Theres some real cheese for. Thats why I like my fourth edition codex. I could cheese the living snot out of people. And it was completely legal! Terminator honors allows you to select from the armory for each member that has it. Everyone in a veteran squad can take terminator honors.

But anyway. From what I have seen Grey Knights with Dakka Dreads are torture for regular armies.

Though in all honesty if you play smart and hide. He can't hit you.

Thats why i use my fourth ed codex sometimes to kill people that use cheese lists. It makes them think twice before deploying a cheesy army. Because if I am nearby and the city calls. The Wanderers will show up to kick them in the nads. Captain PLANET style.

I imagine knowing the strengths of an army could let many armies be super cheese at 4000 points not to mention whatever Apocalypse mess you just cited I have no clue what it is about, good chance the other guy might not know either. Not saying the army isn't awesome just pointing out confusion could be half of that battle.

Jstncloud wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Well current edition is grey knights no doubt. But Recently I did a test. I pitted my fourth edition space marines. With one of the most cheesiest things I could do. I took an apoclaypse army. And My friend had an army of grey knights so I gave him 2,000 points of my grey knight army. And we had a 4,000 point battle. I deployed 10 squads of space marines. (1st company rules from Apocalypse Reloaded) Heres that catch....
Each squad had 1 librarian, 1 captain and 1 chaplain. They were all veteran squads. With Artifcer armor, power weapons and combi-meltas for each member of the squad... Oh and they had feel no pain. Inflitration, Rentless, Fearless, Furious Charge and Acute Senses. And jump packs. You want to call cheese Thats cheese. In 4 turns his army was on the run as my army slaughtered everything in its path. Oh land raiders goodbye! Theres some real cheese for. Thats why I like my fourth edition codex. I could cheese the living snot out of people. And it was completely legal! Terminator honors allows you to select from the armory for each member that has it. Everyone in a veteran squad can take terminator honors.

But anyway. From what I have seen Grey Knights with Dakka Dreads are torture for regular armies.

Though in all honesty if you play smart and hide. He can't hit you.

Thats why i use my fourth ed codex sometimes to kill people that use cheese lists. It makes them think twice before deploying a cheesy army. Because if I am nearby and the city calls. The Wanderers will show up to kick them in the nads. Captain PLANET style.

I imagine knowing the strengths of an army could let many armies be super cheese at 4000 points not to mention whatever Apocalypse mess you just cited I have no clue what it is about, good chance the other guy might not know either. Not saying the army isn't awesome just pointing out confusion could be half of that battle.

Check out the Doctrines in the Space Marine Codex. My army can't get certain units. The Doctrines let you take special rules. So I did the next best thing. I got rid of land speeders and I couldn't use droppods, instead I could use Tactical marines that had 5 special rules and everyone could infiltrate.

GK: too many to name.
BA: Incredibly cheap lasplas or AC fast razors.
SW: Rune Priest's lightning/jaws combo, cheap but well geared troops with counter attack.