I am newish to 40k, so I have not been around a very long time, I do not have many ol years of lore to call upon. I have noticed there is a massive amount of Hate for this guy, could anyone explain why? I mean I know he changed some stuff, but 40k is all over the place and is in need of consolidation. So just what did he do?
He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists with 0 regard to external balance, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
You could answer the OP's question without letting your own opinion known.
Essentially, Matt Ward has written a few codexes are are regarded as being unfluffy by the fanbase ('nids and SM's infatuation with UM), or overpowered to play against (BA). Obviously opinion is divided on the issue.
Personally I'm somewhat annoyed by the fact that his codexes seem to be stuffed full of special rules that makes them cooler/more powerful than you'd otherwise expect. But then I'd prefer a more "generalised" game anyway, with as few unit-specific special rules as possible.
Though the Warhammer Fantasy Deamons book is said to have literally broken WHF, never played it extensively so couldn't say.
Seeing as everything he wrote for 40K 5th Edition is less broken than IG or Space Wolves, yet not quite as flawed as Tyranids, while being infinitly more varied than the overtly repetitive spam of DE, he nevetheless seems to hit external balance far better than all the other Codex Writers that have tried.
Zweischneid wrote:
You could have given your opinion without pretending that it represents some cryptic "fan base" that you randomly cite to give your opinion a false veneer of objectivity.
What? I stated an objective answer the question, then stated my own opinion.
Zweischneid wrote:
You could have given your opinion without pretending that it represents some cryptic "fan base" that you randomly cite to give your opinion a false veneer of objectivity.
What? I stated an objective answer the question, then stated my own opinion.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists with 0 regard to external balance, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Fixe'd for you
Yes because Phil kelly (Writer of Space Wolves) and Cruddance (Writer of Imperial Guard) compare to Matt Ward (Writer of Space wolves)
At the very least Matt has made some mid-tier stuff (Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels), Cruddance has made one horridly overpowered book and one rather well underpowered book, and Phil has Dark Eldar as his mid balance.
Matt ward just writes some horribly silly fluff though, and is far to much a Ultramarines fanboy.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
IMHO, he writes decent enough rules but the fluff he writes tends to scrap and invalidate other writers fluff and is geared waaaay too much towards the UM.
Blood angels are overpowered when looking at every other codex other than grey knights. The codex is overpowered, its just not seen in the tournament scene because of the more over powered builds that are out. Blood angels wasn't balanced in the lest bit. But as died down just because every one who broke that codex went to grey knights. The bugs codex is so bad i don't see how people still buy them other than to paint and model em. And personally i think Phil is the best writer for GW. But that is just a personal thing. Take it or leave it.
Blood angels are overpowered when looking at every other codex other than grey knights. The codex is overpowered, its just not seen in the tournament scene because of the more over powered builds that are out.
So if it doesn't have a more overpowered build than the current other codex's..
There was a thread dedocated to it but it got shut down to due trolling by people who've never played against them.
OP is a bit of a stretch since it's not a very handy word, being subjective etc etc.
BA are basically Space Marines...but every single unit has some special rule or something that makes it that bit cooler.
Dreadnaughts with infinite attacks, army-wide FNP, army-wide fast vehicles (except LRs), a monsterous creature on an infantry base (there's no point saying LOL HE GOTS NO INVUL SAVE when he's always going to get cover anyway), outflanking predators with twin-linked assault cannon and sponsons, etc etc.
Not over-powered the way that Grey Knights are but just...eh. If you took that design philosophy and applied it to all codexes, the game would be incredibly complicated and nigh-on unplayable. It's an irritating codex to play against.
Blood angels are overpowered when looking at every other codex other than grey knights. The codex is overpowered, its just not seen in the tournament scene because of the more over powered builds that are out.
So if it doesn't have a more overpowered build than the current other codex's..
How is it more overpowered than them?
Cos logic is not allowed here!!!!
Anywho some builds crush certain armies and don't give them any chance at all.
Blood angels are overpowered when looking at every other codex other than grey knights. The codex is overpowered, its just not seen in the tournament scene because of the more over powered builds that are out.
So if it doesn't have a more overpowered build than the current other codex's..
How is it more overpowered than them?
Because a codex can be overpowered, underpowered, or about right. It's all open to debate.
Ben Nevis is high, but it's not as high as Mount Everest .So according to you, it's flat.
nomsheep wrote:IMHO, he writes decent enough rules but the fluff he writes tends to scrap and invalidate other writers fluff and is geared waaaay too much towards the UM.
Nom
Have you ever actually read the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Pete Haines and Graham McNeill? Every single piece of artwork had UM-logo. Every single army-list entry was depicted with an UM-logo. Ever single "fluff-box" and story is exclusively UM: Most special units like Honor Guard or Veterans came with UM-specific names. Only two non-UM chapters were even shown in the paint-section in anything other than a single model. Only two non-UM SC were included compared to 5 in the 5th Edition book. Fluff specific to non-UM exploded nearly tenfold in the transition from 4th to 5th.
I can understand the frustration for some of the more popular chapters like Iron Hands still getting the short shrift, but I doubt that Mat Ward, on his first "big" project (for 40K) and on arguably GW's main IP-flagship of Space Marines no less, could have possibly toned down UM any more. I am surprised at how far he actually went.
nomsheep wrote:IMHO, he writes decent enough rules but the fluff he writes tends to scrap and invalidate other writers fluff and is geared waaaay too much towards the UM.
Nom
Have you ever actually read the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex? Every single piece of artwork had UM-logo. Every single army-list entry was depicted with an UM-logo. Ever single "fluff-box" and story is exclusively UM: Most special units like Honor Guard or Veterans came with UM-specific names. Only two non-UM chapters were even shown in the paint-section in anything other than a single model. Only two non-UM SC were included compared to 5 in the 5th Edition book. Fluff specific to non-UM exploded nearly tenfold in the transition from 4th to 5th.
I can understand the frustration for some of the more popular chapters like Iron Hands still getting the short shrift, but I doubt that Mat Ward, on his first "big" project (for 40K) and on arguably GW's main IP-flagship of Space Marines no less, could have possibly toned down UM any more. I am surprised at how far he actually went.
Like i said it's my opinion. lol
Yes, yes i have.
I agree. buts its comments like the one that says all other chapters want to be ultramarines tht bothers me. tis all.
.
BA are basically Space Marines...but every single unit has some special rule or something that makes it that bit cooler.
Dreadnaughts with infinite attacks, army-wide FNP, army-wide fast vehicles (except LRs), a monsterous creature on an infantry base (there's no point saying LOL HE GOTS NO INVUL SAVE when he's always going to get cover anyway), outflanking predators with twin-linked assault cannon and sponsons, etc etc.
I don't mind the outflanking predators, codex space marine has outflanking Land Raiders with hammernators.
The infinite attack thing wasn't well thought out yeah, but it's next codex will limit it most likely
Army wide FNP is meh, as I preferred it only being on Death Company. So I will give that one to you pretty much.
I don't mind the army wide fast vehicles, makes em more expensive, not to mention they had those before.
Though I honestly wish they didn't give them sternguard, felt those should've stayed with standard marines.
Personally I don't really have a problem with his stuff. I do think that Matt's Codecies represent a bit of a change of direction of the Codex in general, and as such is probably why they have attracted more flak than those written by Cruddace and Kelly, specifically regarding the background material he writes.
Specifically I think it is the massively overblown, beyond the realms of comic-book, background that has put a lot of people's backs up. Codecies have always favoured the army they are writing about in the background, it's just that Ward's turns the notch up to 11. So, we have Marneus Calgar and Draigo, amongst others, performing feats almost Biblical in nature. But, I think it's important to realise that these are deliberately biased accounts of background, designed to make 11-13 year-olds say "OMG, that is AWESOME" rather than a more objective/believable account of the kind that you might read about in a Black Library book.
My only other complaint, specifically regarding the BA book, is that the Storm Raven was involved in every single battle ever fought in by the BA, and played a decisive role in each of them. But, I don't think that was his fault, rather the sales department probably asked him to make sure it got x number of mentions in the background section.
I do think however that his codecies mark perhaps the end of the divide between saying a codex is 'canon' in terms of background, rather than the far more carefully and conscientiously written BL novels, which I know had previously become the case. Draigo bestriding the warp for years before carving his name onto the heart of Mortarion? It is meant to sound as if it is something from Legend, not taken at face value I think.
I like some of his ideas (changing the Necrons from mindless automatons and bestowing them with some character for instance), and to be fair his codecies are at least fun to use. But, specifically regarding the background (and regarding the stuff he has written as somehow sacrosanct because it is written in a Codex) I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole for the most part.
I think BA had a problem with the issue of comparison to other marines codexes , it kinda does everything better than the others want mech spam? ( the main competitive with mechs power in this edition)have fast rhino varients, want infantry based army have a chance for fearless and apothicaries for feel no pain attachment. assault based list? stormravens and assault squads as troops and land raider dedicated transport.
Which was generally BT territory.
SW has their unique units
DA only have termie wing and ravenwing and fearless abundance
BT are now reduced mainly to.upgrade differences and combined squads with neophytes
SM is mainly a special character book and bonus units like thunderfire cannons and ironclads
and with the dawn of grey knights they are completely unique but still.have alot of competitive builds which can be more bluntly exploited which kinda swept BA under the carpet.
Cut a long story short whatever build you want to do (bar SW and GK) try Ba and 9/10 it will be done better or cheaper allowing for a more competitive list
I should saved the text of my reply in the last of these threads.
I don't care about Ward's rules, I only care about the fluff. Ward's fluff is overblown, written like bad fan-fiction from a breathless 6-year-old. He has no appreciation for subtlety, and cannot construct a narrative that makes any logical sense. His fluff is some of the worst out there and I cannot stand it.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
You know how I know you're no older than 10 years old?
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
You know how I know you're no older than 10 years old?
I will happily forgive C:SM Ultra love, let's not forget that in 2nd, this book was actually called Codex: Ultramarines, as they are the template chapter and therefore the most generic.
Power balance has always been an issue, and he is simply the poster boy for it in the current environment, who knows, in 6th, it all may go down the toilet?
The thing that did it for me, on my return last year after over a decade out, what actually made me properly angry? Draigo! Cannot believe this thread has reached this many posts without it coming up already.
So yes, one can argue some game imbalance, but I find his lists allow for interest and variety in general, but the fluff he writes means that he should have things done to him with a rusty knife sometimes.
nomsheep wrote:Seems a bit of a harsh blanket statement there.
He said Ward's Marine Codex toned down the Ultramarine love-in with a straight face, and called everyone who disagreed with him a 'neckbeard'. I think he's earned a blanket statement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vladsimpaler wrote::edit: He's the dude who thinks that there was never animosity in Chaos, now everything makes sense (serious)
nomsheep wrote:Seems a bit of a harsh blanket statement there.
He said Ward's Marine Codex toned down the Ultramarine love-in with a straight face, and called everyone who disagreed with him a 'neckbeard'. I think he's earned a blanket statement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vladsimpaler wrote::edit: He's the dude who thinks that there was never animosity in Chaos, now everything makes sense (serious)
I don't really mind BA or GK that much. Despite the bemoaning of some players, I don't think there as bad as people make them out to be (aside from a few things).
1.) We don't need a "Why the Mat Ward hate" thread every damn week. Use the search.
2.) Mat Ward singlehandedly killed 7th edition Warhammer Fantasy game balance with his Daemons army book. Didn't recover until 8th edition where Mat Ward killed competitive play completely with the new unbalanced Magic rules. 8th edition is nice for non-competitive games, but even the most extensive house rules can't make tournaments balanced anymore, because one lucky dice role can win over any strategy.
3.) His 40k fluff writing seems inspired by He-Man comics from his youth, with Draigo the most ridiculous character. His introduction of Chaos Grey Knights (Blood Tide incident) is silly on a CS Goto level.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
You know how I know you're no older than 10 years old?
No. Enlighten me please.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
:edit: He's the dude who thinks that there was never animosity in Chaos, now everything makes sense (serious)
Am I? I always thought I'd argued that animosity is one of the key themes that defines Chaos. Point me to the post where I framed that wrong please.
The English language doesn't have words to accurately express my disdain for Mat Wards fluff writing. The phrase "vomit inducing " comes to mind, but that only scratches the surface. However it's his actual codex writing that makes me cringe the most. Starting with BA.....they can do everything C:SM can do, and more, for fewer points. Plus they are obviously superior to the 4th Ed. codices, especially in the realm of point costs. Simple as that. There is no way stuff like that should've been published IMO. Grey Knights......every stinking unit in that book is broken. When fighting GK, you're fighting an uphill battle from the moment you lay the first piece of terrain...unless of course you too are playing GK. They are the least balanced codex he's written for 40k (I'm not even gonna touch that Daemons debacle in Fantasy). Necrons.......actually I don't have anything bad to say about Necrons. I think he did a good job there, both in fluff, and in rules. Good job Mat.....probably the only time I'll ever say that.
Zweischneid wrote: Am I? I always thought I'd argued that animosity is one of the key themes that defines Chaos. Point me to the post where I framed that wrong please.
I don't know, are you? I'm not gonna go looking through your post history but I remember you talking about how animosity was never a part of Chaos and it was just put there to dissuade power gamers. I remember this from a thread I posted in though:
Zweischneid wrote:World Eaters disbanded after the Battle of Skalatharax. Angron's attempt to reunite (what was left of) them at Armageddon (investing literally decades of preparation) failed miserably.
World Eaters don't exist in 40K. Only remenant berserker warbands of various sizes, some alone, but the vast majority fighting with/for other Chaos Forces do.
Thus, like pretty much all "mono-God" list, all-Khorne is exceedingly unfluffy. Adding a few Tzeentch "Liberians" or other non-Khorne units would certainly help.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists with 0 regard to external balance, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Fixe'd for you
Who cares? Get him to write all the new codices and they'll balance one another out 40k's just getting overhauled and we're in a bit of an iffy transition period at the moment.
Zweischneid wrote:World Eaters disbanded after the Battle of Skalatharax. Angron's attempt to reunite (what was left of) them at Armageddon (investing literally decades of preparation) failed miserably.
World Eaters don't exist in 40K. Only remenant berserker warbands of various sizes, some alone, but the vast majority fighting with/for other Chaos Forces do.
Thus, like pretty much all "mono-God" list, all-Khorne is exceedingly unfluffy. Adding a few Tzeentch "Liberians" or other non-Khorne units would certainly help.
Emphasis mine
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
I think you missed the point. Combining Tzeentch and Khorne is fluffy because it represents the animosity that defines Chaos on the Table. A mono-God Chaos list, which excludes animosity, is like an Ultramarine list that excludes the colour blue or an Eldar list that excludes pointy ears. What is the point of having animosity in the background, if all Chaos players are doing their dearest to not bring it to the table? What is the point of having background material saying how the traitor legions split up, if Chaos players are doing their dearest to field them as seemingly just as functional, unified forces as loyalists are?
Alot of mono-God lists seem hell-bound on making a Chaos army that is precisely not showing animosity, not showing the fracteous nature of the legions, not showing the rag-tag force that are iconic of Chaos. I deplore them because they neglect the animosity that defines Chaos, rather than claiming there is no animosity.
Zweischneid wrote:World Eaters disbanded after the Battle of Skalatharax. Angron's attempt to reunite (what was left of) them at Armageddon (investing literally decades of preparation) failed miserably.
World Eaters don't exist in 40K. Only remenant berserker warbands of various sizes, some alone, but the vast majority fighting with/for other Chaos Forces do.
Thus, like pretty much all "mono-God" list, all-Khorne is exceedingly unfluffy. Adding a few Tzeentch "Liberians" or other non-Khorne units would certainly help.
Emphasis mine
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
I think you missed the point. Combining Tzeentch and Khorne is fluffy because it represents the animosity that defines Chaos on the Table. A mono-God Chaos list, which excludes animosity, is like an Ultramarine list that excludes the colour blue or an Eldar list that excludes pointy ears. What is the point of having animosity in the background, if all Chaos players are doing their dearest to not bring it to the table? What is the point of having background material saying how the traitor legions split up, if Chaos players are doing their dearest to field them as seemingly just as functional, unified forces as loyalists are?
Alot of mono-God lists seem hell-bound on making a Chaos army that is precisely not showing animosity, not showing the fracteous nature of the legions, not showing the rag-tag force that are iconic of Chaos. I deplore them because they neglect the animosity that defines Chaos, rather than claiming there is no animosity.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists with 0 regard to external balance, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Fixe'd for you
Who cares? Get him to write all the new codices and they'll balance one another out 40k's just getting overhauled and we're in a bit of an iffy transition period at the moment.
Dear sweet zombie Jesus no! Ward writting every codex would simply turn 40k into a 100% game of pure rock/papper/scissors.
The guy can internally balance his rules, even if it's through simply slapping as many USR's as possible into the mix, but he seems to go out of way to fart all over external balance and offers up laughably childish responses.
I don't think anyone will ever forget his infamous, "well they're Daemons!" answer when he was questioned by players as to just why the Fantasy daemons book was so blaitently OP to the point it wasn't even worth playing the half turn game.
Not evne going to touch his fluff... Hell, he actually seems to try and out do CS Goto for sheer fanboy'ish stupidity in alot of the crap he spouts.
Outside of the magic debacle and the inept stupidity of the Steadfast rules in Fantasy, that game is becoming reasonably well balanced now as the 8th ed books are being churned out. (and lo and behold, Ward's been firmly shut out of them! )
Acutally, if you simply use the 7th ed rulebook magic Lores with the new lore attribute, it really improves things in leaps and bounds.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists with 0 regard to external balance, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Fixe'd for you
Who cares? Get him to write all the new codices and they'll balance one another out 40k's just getting overhauled and we're in a bit of an iffy transition period at the moment.
Dear sweet zombie Jesus no! Ward writting every codex would simply turn 40k into a 100% game of pure rock/papper/scissors.
The guy can internally balance his rules, even if it's through simply slapping as many USR's as possible into the mix, but he seems to go out of way to fart all over external balance and offers up laughably childish responses.
I don't think anyone will ever forget his infamous, "well they're Daemons!" answer when he was questioned by players as to just why the Fantasy daemons book was so blaitently OP to the point it wasn't even worth playing the half turn game.
Not evne going to touch his fluff... Hell, he actually seems to try and out do CS Goto for sheer fanboy'ish stupidity in alot of the crap he spouts.
Outside of the magic debacle and the inept stupidity of the Steadfast rules in Fantasy, that game is becoming reasonably well balanced now as the 8th ed books are being churned out. (and lo and behold, Ward's been firmly shut out of them! )
Acutally, if you simply use the 7th ed rulebook magic Lores with the new lore attribute, it really improves things in leaps and bounds.
I thought 40k *was* Rock Paper Scissors and a bit of luck? It's all about the list-tailoring. Outside of that it's hardly too complex.
This thread is going out of control.... and it's hailarious to read.
Vlad you always make me lol
ANyway, Ward tends to kill an aspect much loved by 40k fans, diversity ! Biggest example being chapter traits, in favor of the generic sm in the 5th ed Space marines. It kills that personal touch you have with your models.
On the other hand his codexes are very.... competetive ?
Personaly i think :
His fluff writing is.... original ? It goes against the the whole grimdark feel there was to 40k.
Yes necrons can ally with people now.... but the whole point of 40 k is not to build a huge super empire where evryone is friends and bunnies and lollipops and stuff, it's about last man/machin/bug/deamon/whatever standing wins.
Personaly i think :
His fluff writing is.... original ? It goes against the the whole grimdark feel there was to 40k.
Yes necrons can ally with people now.... but the whole point of 40 k is not to build a huge super empire where evryone is friends and bunnies and lollipops and stuff, it's about last man/machin/bug/deamon/whatever standing wins.
Nah. The whole point of 40K is to give some token background for the games people play with GW's plastic toy soldiers. As doubles tournaments are rather popular, it makes sense to give them a grounding in the elaborate advertisement that comes with those plastic minis.
mayfist wrote:This thread is going out of control.... and it's hailarious to read.
Vlad you always make me lol
ANyway, Ward tends to kill an aspect much loved by 40k fans, diversity !
But C:SM is a great example of letting you customise your army; the chapter tactics on the ICs, who can be renamed and proxied to suit your given army are a great idea. You can alter your playstyle based on the heroes you take.
Furthermore, C:GK has a whole bunch of ways to play. Draigowing or Crowe and his Purifiers... plus a whole bunch of toys that can do the same job in different ways (Stormraven vs Land Raider).
You don't have those kinds of options in other codices... even more novel ones like Eldar.
Kroothawk wrote:1.) We don't need a "Why the Mat Ward hate" thread every damn week. Use the search.
2.) Mat Ward singlehandedly killed 7th edition Warhammer Fantasy game balance with his Daemons army book. Didn't recover until 8th edition where Mat Ward killed competitive play completely with the new unbalanced Magic rules. 8th edition is nice for non-competitive games, but even the most extensive house rules can't make tournaments balanced anymore, because one lucky dice role can win over any strategy.
3.) His 40k fluff writing seems inspired by He-Man comics from his youth, with Draigo the most ridiculous character. His introduction of Chaos Grey Knights (Blood Tide incident) is silly on a CS Goto level.
An elegant summary of The Great Beast's career thus far - one wonders what further rage and misery his singular talents will inflict upon the gaming world in the future.
Kroothawk wrote:1.) We don't need a "Why the Matt Ward hate" thread every damn week. Use the search.
Until we get a thread of this stickied with a list showing how many times this has been asked and linkied to each, it'll be easier just to make a new one than bother to search.
nomsheep wrote:Until we get a thread of this stickied with a list showing how many times this has been asked and linkied to each, it'll be easier just to make a new one than bother to search.
Even if you stickied one exemplar of every recurring thread, you won't reach a certain kind of members who rather post than read.
nomsheep wrote:Until we get a thread of this stickied with a list showing how many times this has been asked and linkied to each, it'll be easier just to make a new one than bother to search.
Even if you stickied one exemplar of every recurring thread, you won't reach a certain kind of members who rather post than read.
But then the mods would be able to delete/lock the recurring threads.
Honestly I didn't think of searching, The terms "Matt Ward"+"Hate" Would have most likely lead me to about 30 posts saying "I hate matt Ward". I asked because in 6 out of the last ten threads I have read someone stated matt ward hate. I really see any reason why other the n he ruined "X" without saying just how he ruined it. As a new player I simply lack the knowledge of how something was changed.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Honestly I didn't think of searching, The terms "Matt Ward"+"Hate" Would have most likely lead me to about 30 posts saying "I hate matt Ward". I asked because in 6 out of the last ten threads I have read someone stated matt ward hate. I really see any reason why other the n he ruined "X" without saying just how he ruined it. As a new player I simply lack the knowledge of how something was changed.
Being a newb is fair enough as far as excuses go, but if you actually do try searching the forum next time, you'll find a wealth of threads dealing with this very topic (and the topic of how it came about) in depth.
Henners91 wrote:
But C:SM is a great example of letting you customise your army; the chapter tactics on the ICs, who can be renamed and proxied to suit your given army are a great idea. You can alter your playstyle based on the heroes you take.
Furthermore, C:GK has a whole bunch of ways to play. Draigowing or Crowe and his Purifiers... plus a whole bunch of toys that can do the same job in different ways (Stormraven vs Land Raider).
You don't have those kinds of options in other codices... even more novel ones like Eldar.
I don't want to field a special character to be allowed to run my army the way I used to be able to. I want to be able to field my bloody army and kit out my HQ how I choose. I'm not happy with C:IG doing it, and I'm not happy with C:SM doing it. Your comment about Draigowing and Crowe illustrates my point. You don't build a GK army, you pick a special character. Ward didn't write the Eldar codex, so armies from it don't wind up getting named after their special character (as far as I know... I haven't heard anyone call their army "Eldrad-fest" or anything similar).
As for Ward himself, he ruined WHFB with Daemons (I've played against them, and if you look up "F**K YOU" in the dictionary, there's a Daemon list pictured next to it). He made GK so OP that they have become a byword for "Cheese" (Seriously, when people think the Space Wolves aren't as bad as you, you know you are the cheesiest cheese-factory in all Wisconsin). He wrote the most masturbatory fluff possible in C::[ULTRA]spacemarines. He used the word "uncorruptable" no less than fifty times in C:GK, without actually knowing what the word means (Bloodtide, anyone?). His codexes aren't ballanced agianst other codexes, even ones he wrote himself (seriously, he should at least be able to manage that... I can understand BA and GK overpowering Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, and Tau... but SM? Surely HE should know how his army is going to stack up against another army HE wrote). Oh, and much like a broken clock, he did the right thing with the Newcrons. That is the only good thing I will say about him: he made the Necrons into something that deserved an army list, as opposed to their being nothing more distinctive than any other mysterious race that feths with humanity.
ShatteredBlade wrote:Oh this is going to be quite hilarious. I don't know how much longer it'll take until this entire thread implodes and turns into one giant flame war.
Who is flaming how? its just a few reasonable [s]trolls[/s[ peoplw having a conversation. no flaming here
mayfist wrote:This thread is going out of control.... and it's hailarious to read.
Vlad you always make me lol
ANyway, Ward tends to kill an aspect much loved by 40k fans, diversity !
But C:SM is a great example of letting you customise your army; the chapter tactics on the ICs, who can be renamed and proxied to suit your given army are a great idea. You can alter your playstyle based on the heroes you take.
Furthermore, C:GK has a whole bunch of ways to play. Draigowing or Crowe and his Purifiers... plus a whole bunch of toys that can do the same job in different ways (Stormraven vs Land Raider).
You don't have those kinds of options in other codices... even more novel ones like Eldar.
That's kind of the whole point of the Eldar. Units aren't supposed to do each other's jobs. Eldar units are supposed to be the absolute best at what they do. The fact that some of them are not, is a sign of the codex's age. Playing Eldar is like conducting a symphony. It's what makes it different from 90% of the armies out there where you just push power armor across the table and hope for the best.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am newish to 40k, so I have not been around a very long time, I do not have many ol years of lore to call upon. I have noticed there is a massive amount of Hate for this guy, could anyone explain why? I mean I know he changed some stuff, but 40k is all over the place and is in need of consolidation. So just what did he do?
Because he take good written fluff and twist it in such a way that it doesn't make sense. He is also No.1 reason why people dislike Ultramarines.
Being a newb is fair enough as far as excuses go, but if you actually do try searching the forum next time, you'll find a wealth of threads dealing with this very topic (and the topic of how it came about) in depth.
No man, I was not using the new as an excuse as why I did not search. I simply did not think about it. The new was simply why I asked. I'll be sure and check the search nexttime however, thanks
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists with 0 regard to external balance, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Fixe'd for you
Who cares? Get him to write all the new codices and they'll balance one another out 40k's just getting overhauled and we're in a bit of an iffy transition period at the moment.
The owner of the codeci(?) that will be released after 4+ years of uphill battle against top dogs?
Several long years of imbalance and after that possibility of equal strength =/= balance.
I think you may be joking but still. That logic shows itself way too often on Dakka.
ShatteredBlade wrote:Well, in all honesty the WHFB people do have a right to complain about him.
I never played WHFB, so I'm not going to talk about the daemon book, because i know nothing about it....
Playing against 7th edition Daemons in Fantasy is basically like playing the following 40k senario; you're playing as Daemons vs GK's who get to auto-cover the entire table with warp quake and then can re-roll results of 'misplaced' by simply juggling your units between quake bubbles untill they're auto-destroyed.
No reason. Deep striking landraiders are the most sensible invention I've yet seen when perusing the codeces. Every unit over 20 points should have at least 6 special rules, minimum, and Mat Ward achieves this spectacularly. Who needs a statline when you can just jab USRs into MEQs?
The reason I dislike his codex's isn't the rules, as I don't think any of the codex's are overpowered. I regularly play against both necrons and GK, and while occasionally a challenge they're not OP. While they aren't balanced against the older codexes (codeci? codex's?...whatever) they are fairly well balanced against the 5th ed ones.
But here's the reason for my burning hatred... I'm into 40k for the gameplay, yes. But mainly the fluff. I love the stories, the background, the universe. And his work looks like the crap you read on a Tween fan-fic site, and not even one of the good ones. He's got some very interesting concepts. I can see what he was trying to do with so much of it... but he just fails miserably in it's execution. Draigo vs. Morty should have been more than 4 lines of text. The whole 'Draigo's been cursed thing' should have been fleshed out further so it doesn't look like he's a mary sue. I honestly think that if he were to be given an intern from a creative writing course things would get better. He gives them the ideas, they flesh it out.
The fact of the matter is that with less than a minute of thinking everyone I've talked to has been able to flesh it out better and made it more interesting. Turning it up to 11 is cool. Turning it up to 11, but it's nothing but the sound of fapping... not so much.
I don't mind his xenos codex writing at all. Except the flavor gets a little shallow at times. And those poor tyranids always have such a hard time finding balance when you've got someone writing for them that can't stop thinking about his hard-on for marines.
He has a lot of cute ideas, but they tend to becoming overwhelming when they all present themselves. Also you can really see it, and I feel it viscerally, when some idea he's trying to implement clearly wasn't thought through too well and is obviously slowed. Sometimes it's because it is frustrating, sometimes it is because it creates obvious and fatal flaws in a list, sometimes it is because the thing is too easy to compare to something else that is just better or worse.
While there is such a thing as a front-line general, the fact is that all of his heroes are like that, and ones that aren't seem both vague and unfocused. Furthermore, Matt does a lot of telling rather than showing. He tells us that Marneus Calgar is a patient tactical genius who considers the danger of an incoming projectile before taking cover. The image painted in the average person's mind in that case is one of Calgar analyzing a falling bomb until it strikes him in the head and explodes, at which point he decides, “Yes, that one was dangerous, I probably should have taken cover from that one".
Personally I thought Phil Kelly did a great job with the Dark Eldar - background, rules, everything. But, as has been said the Ward-written codex armies do seem to be very common, and if they are selling by the bucket load then most likely it means a lot more will be on the horizon. I'm not disappointed per se, but then I do have very low standards
Pacific wrote:
Personally I thought Phil Kelly did a great job with the Dark Eldar - background, rules, everything. But, as has been said the Ward-written codex armies do seem to be very common, and if they are selling by the bucket load then most likely it means a lot more will be on the horizon. I'm not disappointed per se, but then I do have very low standards
Ward codicies are popular because they're somewhat of an 'easy mode' to varrying degrees.
- Necrons are the 'newest & greatest thing' which opponents are still trying to figure out the best counters. But, 'crons have been handed a rather nasty av13 mech game, highly resiliant Troops in Immortals, (thus acting as a cop-out to avoid the squishier Warriors), decent combat units, and annoyingly OTT abilities with things like Cryptek spam (and the writhing worldscape shinanigans), or Scarab farming or Imhotek's goofiness, etc...
- GK's have an easy answer to pretty much anything. Better mech spam thanks to Fortitude, insanely cheap and ultra powerfull upgrades like psybolts on dreads and the rad/psycho grenades...
Not to mention, all three of their 'best' units can be easily taken as Troops through the use of special characters, with two of those units being horrifcally under-costed for what you get out of them!
Oh, and the book has multiple built-in "F -you Daemons!" buttons that are easy instant wins just to pick on those players for no real reason... (because getting army-wide prefered enemy & daemonbane rules wasn't nearly enough of an advantage!)
- BA's can quite litterally do anything vanilla marines can do, only 11 times better and/or more cost effectively. It's litterly the book of 'how many USRs can we jam into 1 army?!'
- Codex Marines I really like though and I'll give him props for a solid book. Sure there's a couple things that might be a bit OTT, (3++ storm shields being a bit too good imho), but overall it's hard to build as 'idiot-proof' a list as other books can.
In regards to the new Necron fluff I actually don't mind it. I think it personifies them and gives them a more three dimensional image. The idea that they were soulless and uncompromising was boring and is essentially what the nids are anyway.
I dislike Ward for his fluff. It is all flash and no substance. You just get told that someone is the best X ever, you don't actually see them demonstrating their abilities.
Pacific wrote:This bit made me laugh in that 4chan write-up
While there is such a thing as a front-line general, the fact is that all of his heroes are like that, and ones that aren't seem both vague and unfocused. Furthermore, Matt does a lot of telling rather than showing. He tells us that Marneus Calgar is a patient tactical genius who considers the danger of an incoming projectile before taking cover. The image painted in the average person's mind in that case is one of Calgar analyzing a falling bomb until it strikes him in the head and explodes, at which point he decides, “Yes, that one was dangerous, I probably should have taken cover from that one".
Personally I thought Phil Kelly did a great job with the Dark Eldar - background, rules, everything. But, as has been said the Ward-written codex armies do seem to be very common, and if they are selling by the bucket load then most likely it means a lot more will be on the horizon. I'm not disappointed per se, but then I do have very low standards
He also made Space wolves.
Each of the current codex writers has written at least one "Failure"
Space wolves (Kelly), Imperial guard (Cruddance), Gray Knights (Ward)
Though cruddance is the true worst, having written Tyranids, and Sisters of battle. None of them are redeeming.
We should play the same game that we do on /tg/, which is 'Spot Mat Ward's posts!'. It assumes that Mat Ward is actually one of the posters defending his stuff, and we call him out and tell him to go to bed. Haven't managed to catch him yet, he is a sneaky little git.
For my 2 cents. I am sure that Mr.Ward is a decent enough bloke IRL. Lets not confuse his profession with his personality. Fair is fair and everyone gets excited at what they love. So hate his contributions if you must, but lets not hate the man. Much like C.S. Goto seems like a decent sort (especially since he acknowledged he doesn't really know enough to write properly for 40K), I hate his writing but wouldn't mind sharing a drink with the guy.
As to my biggest issue with Ward is his abuse of the old established and loved fluff, and his inability to think his actions through when it comes to what he says. One can argue that fluff tastes are subjective and that is a fair call. I deplore the GK codex, but I know those who swear by it. And then there is the whole Spiritual Liege thing that was literally pissing in the eye of many many many many many many fans by stating Ultramarines > X Chapter. This is partially a sign of GW's lack of quality control for WD as well. Since anyone who even has the slightest understanding of human nature would instantly see the waves that would make.
I can't really argue rules since I don't play anymore. And my understanding is that despite some terrible wording he does have some fun ideas and is bringing back some fun things like Jokero, so I do appreciate that aspect of him. But he seems very fanboy-ish in his approach to his job. So really I think if he just had a minder then things would be ok.
But he needs to be banned from ever speaking in WD again. For his own sake.
Then again he could just be a master troll. But I just don't see it.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
No some us are tired of seeing smurfs all over everything. Being a boy scout isn't too grimdark. Dark Angels, on the other hand...
There wasn't many Ultramarine haters until Ward said his famous words: "They are the best Space Marines in the universe, all other Space Marines wants to be just like them and recognize Calgar as their spiritual league." Imagine how players who played with other Marines feel when their Marines lost all their originality because of that...
H.B.M.C. wrote:I should saved the text of my reply in the last of these threads.
I don't care about Ward's rules, I only care about the fluff. Ward's fluff is overblown, written like bad fan-fiction from a breathless 6-year-old. He has no appreciation for subtlety, and cannot construct a narrative that makes any logical sense. His fluff is some of the worst out there and I cannot stand it.
bmoleski wrote:The English language doesn't have words to accurately express my disdain for Mat Wards fluff writing. The phrase "vomit inducing " comes to mind, but that only scratches the surface. However it's his actual codex writing that makes me cringe the most. Starting with BA.....they can do everything C:SM can do, and more, for fewer points. Plus they are obviously superior to the 4th Ed. codices, especially in the realm of point costs. Simple as that. There is no way stuff like that should've been published IMO. Grey Knights......every stinking unit in that book is broken. When fighting GK, you're fighting an uphill battle from the moment you lay the first piece of terrain...unless of course you too are playing GK. They are the least balanced codex he's written for 40k (I'm not even gonna touch that Daemons debacle in Fantasy). Necrons.......actually I don't have anything bad to say about Necrons. I think he did a good job there, both in fluff, and in rules. Good job Mat.....probably the only time I'll ever say that.
squidhills wrote:
Henners91 wrote:
But C:SM is a great example of letting you customise your army; the chapter tactics on the ICs, who can be renamed and proxied to suit your given army are a great idea. You can alter your playstyle based on the heroes you take.
Furthermore, C:GK has a whole bunch of ways to play. Draigowing or Crowe and his Purifiers... plus a whole bunch of toys that can do the same job in different ways (Stormraven vs Land Raider).
You don't have those kinds of options in other codices... even more novel ones like Eldar.
I don't want to field a special character to be allowed to run my army the way I used to be able to. I want to be able to field my bloody army and kit out my HQ how I choose. I'm not happy with C:IG doing it, and I'm not happy with C:SM doing it. Your comment about Draigowing and Crowe illustrates my point. You don't build a GK army, you pick a special character. Ward didn't write the Eldar codex, so armies from it don't wind up getting named after their special character (as far as I know... I haven't heard anyone call their army "Eldrad-fest" or anything similar).
As for Ward himself, he ruined WHFB with Daemons (I've played against them, and if you look up "F**K YOU" in the dictionary, there's a Daemon list pictured next to it). He made GK so OP that they have become a byword for "Cheese" (Seriously, when people think the Space Wolves aren't as bad as you, you know you are the cheesiest cheese-factory in all Wisconsin). He wrote the most masturbatory fluff possible in C::[ULTRA]spacemarines. He used the word "uncorruptable" no less than fifty times in C:GK, without actually knowing what the word means (Bloodtide, anyone?). His codexes aren't ballanced agianst other codexes, even ones he wrote himself (seriously, he should at least be able to manage that... I can understand BA and GK overpowering Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, and Tau... but SM? Surely HE should know how his army is going to stack up against another army HE wrote). Oh, and much like a broken clock, he did the right thing with the Newcrons. That is the only good thing I will say about him: he made the Necrons into something that deserved an army list, as opposed to their being nothing more distinctive than any other mysterious race that feths with humanity.
Brother Coa wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am newish to 40k, so I have not been around a very long time, I do not have many ol years of lore to call upon. I have noticed there is a massive amount of Hate for this guy, could anyone explain why? I mean I know he changed some stuff, but 40k is all over the place and is in need of consolidation. So just what did he do?
Because he take good written fluff and twist it in such a way that it doesn't make sense. He is also No.1 reason why people dislike Ultramarines.
Durza wrote:I dislike Ward for his fluff. It is all flash and no substance. You just get told that someone is the best X ever, you don't actually see them demonstrating their abilities.
Brother Coa wrote:
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
No some us are tired of seeing smurfs all over everything. Being a boy scout isn't too grimdark. Dark Angels, on the other hand...
There wasn't many Ultramarine haters until Ward said his famous words: "They are the best Space Marines in the universe, all other Space Marines wants to be just like them and recognize Calgar as their spiritual league." Imagine how players who played with other Marines feel when their Marines lost all their originality because of that...
Zweischneid wrote:... play with GW's plastic toy soldiers...
And there it is folks. The Dakka equivalent of Godwin's Law. Add this to the neckbeard comment from a page or two back and you can call this one cooked!
Zweischneid wrote:... play with GW's plastic toy soldiers...
And there it is folks. The Dakka equivalent of Godwin's Law. Add this to the neckbeard comment from a page or two back and you can call this one cooked!
Atma01 wrote:We should play the same game that we do on /tg/, which is 'Spot Mat Ward's posts!'. It assumes that Mat Ward is actually one of the posters defending his stuff, and we call him out and tell him to go to bed. Haven't managed to catch him yet, he is a sneaky little git.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Atma01 wrote:We should play the same game that we do on /tg/, which is 'Spot Mat Ward's posts!'. It assumes that Mat Ward is actually one of the posters defending his stuff, and we call him out and tell him to go to bed. Haven't managed to catch him yet, he is a sneaky little git.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Found him.
So? I am both ten years old and making a solid salary writing GW products for a living. Life's good!
Atma01 wrote:We should play the same game that we do on /tg/, which is 'Spot Mat Ward's posts!'. It assumes that Mat Ward is actually one of the posters defending his stuff, and we call him out and tell him to go to bed. Haven't managed to catch him yet, he is a sneaky little git.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Found him.
So? I am both ten years old and making a solid salary writing GW products for a living. Life's good!
Congratulations mate, you're doing better than I am.
Zweischneid wrote:... play with GW's plastic toy soldiers...
And there it is folks. The Dakka equivalent of Godwin's Law. Add this to the neckbeard comment from a page or two back and you can call this one cooked!
lolwut?
I think what HBMC is getting at is that simlar to how godwins law predicts that with enough time every argument will eventually feature mention of the nazis, in wargaming discussion it can only go so long before the inevitable simplification of miniatures as 'toy soldiers' is made in an attempt to make them seem insignificant and therefore render the argument futile.
Matt Ward made it canon that the Blood Angels allied with the Necrons. I can't even find words to describe the level of stupid inherent in that.
Not only that, but all of Grey Knights. For that alone, he should be lynched - or at the very least, fired for cause and disgraced to the point of a permanent blacklisting from ANY sort of sci-fi or fantasy rule making. I think the Grey Knights could stand toe to toe with Movie Marines as the most ridiculously broken army, and my money would be on the GK in that matchup.
Which gives me an idea. I think I'm going to try just that - Movie Marines vs Grey Knights. I'll let you know who wins.
Chesh wrote:Matt Ward made it canon that the Blood Angels allied with the Necrons. I can't even find words to describe the level of stupid inherent in that.
Not only that, but all of Grey Knights. For that alone, he should be lynched - or at the very least, fired for cause and disgraced to the point of a permanent blacklisting from ANY sort of sci-fi or fantasy rule making. I think the Grey Knights could stand toe to toe with Movie Marines as the most ridiculously broken army, and my money would be on the GK in that matchup.
Which gives me an idea. I think I'm going to try just that - Movie Marines vs Grey Knights. I'll let you know who wins.
In what text do the BA ally with the Necrons? Is it in one of their codices? Or WD? I'd like to read it.
Zweischneid wrote:... play with GW's plastic toy soldiers...
And there it is folks. The Dakka equivalent of Godwin's Law. Add this to the neckbeard comment from a page or two back and you can call this one cooked!
Nope, Draigo's law is Dakka's equivalent of Godwin's Law.
Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.
Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.
(emphasis mine)
Wait a minute.......is that verbatim from the book? Are you f ing joking? There are SO many things wrong with that paragraph! I used to think the GK codex was the greatest injustice ever to stain a piece of paper......I stand corrected. How can people defend his writing?
Honestly, the only things that rub me the wrong way about Matt Ward are:
Ultramarine Fayboyism
He tends to create ultra-powerful IC's with little regard to balance, however, power gamers flock to these armies, looking for any edge that will let them win.
He tends to stretch the limits of "acceptable" fluff, which i believe is the largest part of it however, but in a universe so vast, it isn't really the fluff that I find hard to swallow.
That being said, I thought the Necrons codex was actually well written.
Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.
(emphasis mine)
Wait a minute.......is that verbatim from the book? Are you f ing joking? There are SO many things wrong with that paragraph! I used to think the GK codex was the greatest injustice ever to stain a piece of paper......I stand corrected. How can people defend his writing?
I see nothing wrong with this. Care to explain exactly what gets your goat?
First of all, the whole story sounds like it was written by a young child, but that's neither here nor there. Second, I find it unlikely that a Hive Fleet just "appears" in orbit. I get from the Nid fluff they can be hard to detect, but no when they're in your backyard crappin' on your veggie garden. But I can let that slide. Third, Space Marines allying with xenos? Creatures who are supposed to be less than the scum on the bottom of their boots? Blasphemy. But you know what? I can let that slide too, because it isn't the first time the IOM has allied with xenos. What I can't let slide, is the fact that when the nids where defeated, they BA let the Necrons just go on their merry way! And why? Because they were tired and didn't think they could win? What is that garbage?!?! Space Marines don't quit because they are tired, or because they don't think they can win!!!! Helsreach anyone? Ward made the BA look like gutless weenies. And I also don't believe that the Necrons would just let the BA army go either. It's not the kind of thing that has been established throughout the entirety of 40k lore. It doesn't makes sense. That is my opinion.
If I didn't know better.....I'd say you were Mr. Ward in disguise......hmmmm lol just joking
bmoleski wrote:What I can't let slide, is the fact that when the nids where defeated, they BA let the Necrons just go on their merry way! And why? Because they were tired and didn't think they could win? What is that garbage?!?!
So you started with 40 Marines, and fought the Necrons to a stalemate. Now you've had to fight off some Tyranids, and you've got 12 Marines left. You have no idea how many Necrons are left.
Do you:
a) risk the lives of these infinitely precious Marines on a potentially futile attack with zero current intelligence?
uhhhhh.... A. The alien must die. The alien must be purged. Fear not when the odds are against you. You must know no fear. The Emperor protects. The Emperor's will must be done.
The real heresy was allying with the necrons in the first place. No self-respecting marine would ever ally with those reprehensible alien scum. It's all they can do to ally with Tau or Eldar, and those aliens are basically good guys. Necrons are soul-sucking space skeletons who hate all living things. There's no allying with them.
bmoleski wrote:What I can't let slide, is the fact that when the nids where defeated, they BA let the Necrons just go on their merry way! And why? Because they were tired and didn't think they could win? What is that garbage?!?!
So you started with 40 Marines, and fought the Necrons to a stalemate. Now you've had to fight off some Tyranids, and you've got 12 Marines left. You have no idea how many Necrons are left.
Do you:
a) risk the lives of these infinitely precious Marines on a potentially futile attack with zero current intelligence?
or
b) withdraw
Sorry but the Marines' typical modus operandi (especially if they're BAs) is meathead bravado. Hell, on Space Marine you pretty much take on a whole Ork Waagh with three guys ;P
Henners91 wrote:
Sorry but the Marines' typical modus operandi (especially if they're BAs) is meathead bravado. Hell, on Space Marine you pretty much take on a whole Ork Waagh with three guys ;P
Marines never give up, y'all!
Until you get an incident where Dante, who believes he is "fated" for some grand conflict and to essentially be the Savior of the Universe, is in charge.
For that matter, the Eldar have worked alongside the Astartes before. The reality of the situation on the ground is not as inflexible as Imperial doctrine and the less-fanatical Astartes recognize that.
For me its the Fluff. Necrons can kill and shatter their gods, but couldn't beat the Eldar way back when? And Draigo... just, Draigo...
I mean, think of it like this. We know the fluff and how things should be in the setting. We've had the background for years, and then some guy just comes over and flips it the upside down for the hell of it. Just look at the HH series to see how people are mad on them changing the timeline and just basically making crap up so it doesn't even fit as it should. (Magnus' warning to the Emp)
Ex. Transformers and TMNT vs. Micheal Bay.
I didn't mind the first Transformers movie. It's the other two i despise. And oh yes, he's doing TMNT.. and making them ing aliens...
For that matter, the Eldar have worked alongside the Astartes before. The reality of the situation on the ground is not as inflexible as Imperial doctrine and the less-fanatical Astartes recognize that.
And the setting would be horrendously boring if it were. That's one of the reasons I prefer Ward's fluff over some of the overtly monotone one-fluff-schtick-versions of older armies such as OldCrons or Black Templars. The are good for that one half-second of "oh-that's-a-cool-idea". But the moment you try to do something.. anything.. with them to make them "your own", to play a campaign, indulge is some fan-fiction writing for your lovingly painted commander, etc.. they fall enormously short because of their inflexibility and one-dimensionality.
I guess that makes Ward's fluff less attractive to people who do not like to delve into the rich fluff of 40K and who are overwhelmed if not every faction can be fully described in half a tweat, but Ward's work are an enormous enrichement of 40K for every committed hobbyist and people who actually love to explore and immerse themselves in the 40K universe. Infact, looking at some of the references to the Horus Heresy novels put into the Grey Knights Codex, he seems to be the only current Codex Writer who actually follows 40K literary trends and developments (as opposed to, for example, the immense disconnect between BL Space Wolves and the Thunderhawk-stealing, womanizing, Thundersquirrel-riding, literally-raised-by-wolves Kelly Space Wolves).
bmoleski wrote:What I can't let slide, is the fact that when the nids where defeated, they BA let the Necrons just go on their merry way! And why? Because they were tired and didn't think they could win? What is that garbage?!?!
So you started with 40 Marines, and fought the Necrons to a stalemate. Now you've had to fight off some Tyranids, and you've got 12 Marines left. You have no idea how many Necrons are left.
Do you:
a) risk the lives of these infinitely precious Marines on a potentially futile attack with zero current intelligence?
or
b) withdraw
I'd pick a) every time. It's ingrained into the marine psyche to pick a). To not pick a) is to be a blaspheme against the Emperor.
Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.
This! Space Marines are meant to die for a purpose. Dieing without achieving anything is anathema to doctrine.
Add to that the fact (that Kan brought up) that this was Dante, who is quite different from every single other marine... Yeah, it wasn't out of character.
Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.
So they pussy out as soon as the going gets tough? That's really badass.
I think you really need to start reading posts before replying. The "Quote" function even allows you to do so.
The whole purpose of the Astartes is to be a force multiplier. They're deployed into situations which would be suicidal for the Guard, but they can come out of without any significant casualties.
Even before Ward came around, the Astartes were like this. If they need to go into a situation where they will have to die but their deaths will mean something?
They'll go in without complaint. But their troops are not going to be sent running and waving sticks at an enemy position which they cannot feasibly take.
Kanluwen wrote:To pick A is actually against the whole purpose of the Astartes. They're not suicide troops.
So they pussy out as soon as the going gets tough? That's really badass.
I think you really need to start reading posts before replying. The "Quote" function even allows you to do so.
The whole purpose of the Astartes is to be a force multiplier. They're deployed into situations which would be suicidal for the Guard, but they can come out of without any significant casualties.
Even before Ward came around, the Astartes were like this. If they need to go into a situation where they will have to die but their deaths will mean something?
They'll go in without complaint. But their troops are not going to be sent running and waving sticks at an enemy position which they cannot feasibly take.
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.
bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.
That's because SM aren't always alone?
If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force. There are certainly exceptions to this(the Scythes of the Emperor as an example, who were almost wiped out facing a Tyranid hive fleet because they chose to make a stand on their home world), but the scope of the conflict, the foe being faced, the location, etc all play into the factors that would be considered.
Astartes are not, contrary to popular belief, mindless brutes. They think things through, and this is something you have to keep in context.
The thing is the way it's explained. It's explained that betraying a temporary xenos ally wouldn't sit right with the marines. I can understand the argument that they were understrength enough to where they didn't want to risk a purposeless defeat and pulled back, but seriously? They let the Necron go because they simply didn't want to fight an ally?
That's the biggest ing pile of bull that I've ever heard!
Chesh wrote:The thing is the way it's explained. It's explained that betraying a temporary xenos ally wouldn't sit right with the marines. I can understand the argument that they were understrength enough to where they didn't want to risk a purposeless defeat and pulled back, but seriously? They let the Necron go because they simply didn't want to fight an ally?
That's the biggest ing pile of bull that I've ever heard!
Because SM have never had xenos allies before. Especially the oldest living space marine other than Bjorn...
They've had temporary alliances, but as soon as the reason for that alliance disappeared, the fight resumed between the marines and their allies. It never "seemed dishonorable" until Ward decided to brofist the Necrons and Blood Angels.
Chesh wrote:They've had temporary alliances, but as soon as the reason for that alliance disappeared, the fight resumed between the marines and their allies. It never "seemed dishonorable" until Ward decided to brofist the Necrons and Blood Angels.
Psst. Pretre's comment was sarcasm.
Most notable example are the Eldar, who have allied with Astartes before quite a few times. And in doing so...more often than not they didn't kill each other right afterwards.
Atma01 wrote:We should play the same game that we do on /tg/, which is 'Spot Mat Ward's posts!'. It assumes that Mat Ward is actually one of the posters defending his stuff, and we call him out and tell him to go to bed. Haven't managed to catch him yet, he is a sneaky little git.
Zweischneid wrote:He writes brilliant, innovative and diverse army lists, revived/scrapped some of the dullest, most pretentious fluff in 40K and killed alot of holy neckbeard cows.
Found him.
So? I am both ten years old and making a solid salary writing GW products for a living. Life's good!
Chesh wrote:They've had temporary alliances, but as soon as the reason for that alliance disappeared, the fight resumed between the marines and their allies. It never "seemed dishonorable" until Ward decided to brofist the Necrons and Blood Angels.
Codex Space Wolves 5th p. 19 or Phil Kelly wrote:
When the Ork Waagh! of Grimtusk Bloodboila looks set to consume the entire Athelaq sector, it is not only the Great Company of Egil Iron Wolf that stands in its path. A warhost of Aspect Warriors fights hard to contain the greenskin invasion in the north-west quadrant of the warzone, ultimately preventing the Space Wolves from becoming surrounded. [...].
Later, Autarch Elenduil visits the throne room of Egil Iron Wolf in great ceremony, his bodyguard of Striking Scorpions respectfully bearing the recovered bodies of fallen Space Wolves.
bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.
That's because SM aren't always alone?
If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force.
Except the force wasn't overwhelming. Neither side could guarantee victory over the other.
I am not seeing an Issue with the BA/Necron thing. They teamed up to fight a bigger foe and afterword, while not allies just left. This is not uncommon in past fluff at all. It has happened many time and the SM are not mindless killing beasts, they do have the ability to think, reason and yes made decisions about when to attack and when to withdrawl.
Nothing in that says they will no longer fight those Necrons, they simply where worn down and tactical it was best to with drawl. They would not serve the IoM or their chapter by needlessly throwing away men and equipment for no gain what so ever.
Any commander picking A simply should be stripped of rank.
bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.
That's because SM aren't always alone?
If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force.
Except the force wasn't overwhelming. Neither side could guarantee victory over the other.
But one side can guarantee that the majority of their forces will be rebuilt at a later date--the other can't.
bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.
That's because SM aren't always alone?
If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force.
Except the force wasn't overwhelming. Neither side could guarantee victory over the other.
But one side can guarantee that the majority of their forces will be rebuilt at a later date--the other can't.
Not if the force is cut apart with chainswords and broken down for scrap metal.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am not seeing an Issue with the BA/Necron thing. They teamed up to fight a bigger foe and afterword, while not allies just left. This is not uncommon in past fluff at all. It has happened many time and the SM are not mindless killing beasts, they do have the ability to think, reason and yes made decisions about when to attack and when to withdrawl.
Nothing in that says they will no longer fight those Necrons, they simply where worn down and tactical it was best to with drawl. They would not serve the IoM or their chapter by needlessly throwing away men and equipment for no gain what so ever.
Any commander picking A simply should be stripped of rank.
Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am not seeing an Issue with the BA/Necron thing. They teamed up to fight a bigger foe and afterword, while not allies just left. This is not uncommon in past fluff at all. It has happened many time and the SM are not mindless killing beasts, they do have the ability to think, reason and yes made decisions about when to attack and when to withdrawl.
Nothing in that says they will no longer fight those Necrons, they simply where worn down and tactical it was best to with drawl. They would not serve the IoM or their chapter by needlessly throwing away men and equipment for no gain what so ever.
Any commander picking A simply should be stripped of rank.
Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
Except that have taken valuable data on necrons, that group in particular back to the chapter. They have been given time to study weakness from both fights and rebuild their strength. Unlike the Necrons the SM's gear does not self repair, they can and do run out of ammo, armor can and does fail. Men can and do suffer injuries that effect them. Once you have been though two major fights both sides are seriously depleted. However of the two the martins will be in worse shape due to attrition on wargear. Deciding to keep fighting would have been "brave" but foolish and a bad call that wasted men. Even if they could have taken the Necrons, they could not have held what they took with what little remained. so yes, they might have won, but they also might have lost and most likely would have lost.
Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
Yes. But the IoM isn't the Tau Empire. It's fractious, inconsistent, instable, fraying at the edges and corrupting from within. Different factions pursue their own agenda's, most of all the powerful monastic and independent Space Marine Chapters. And the super human soldiers bred for nothing but war may, on occasion, feel more kinship with alien threats likewise bred (or build) for nothing but war than the humans they've been created to protect many, many thousand years before; especially those secretly harboring a damning flaw that would cast them from this very Empire were it know. It's a dystopian setting often characterized by the iconic term of "GrimDark". It's very essence is that it precisely isn't working squeaky, cleanly to some 10.000 business plan like some Galactic Mitt Romney Empire.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am not seeing an Issue with the BA/Necron thing. They teamed up to fight a bigger foe and afterword, while not allies just left. This is not uncommon in past fluff at all. It has happened many time and the SM are not mindless killing beasts, they do have the ability to think, reason and yes made decisions about when to attack and when to withdrawl.
Nothing in that says they will no longer fight those Necrons, they simply where worn down and tactical it was best to with drawl. They would not serve the IoM or their chapter by needlessly throwing away men and equipment for no gain what so ever.
Any commander picking A simply should be stripped of rank.
Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
Except that have taken valuable data on necrons, that group in particular back to the chapter. They have been given time to study weakness from both fights and rebuild their strength. Unlike the Necrons the SM's gear does not self repair, they can and do run out of ammo, armor can and does fail. Men can and do suffer injuries that effect them. Once you have been though two major fights both sides are seriously depleted. However of the two the martins will be in worse shape due to attrition on wargear. Deciding to keep fighting would have been "brave" but foolish and a bad call that wasted men. Even if they could have taken the Necrons, they could not have held what they took with what little remained. so yes, they might have won, but they also might have lost and most likely would have lost.
How can anyone surmise that they most likely would have lost? Or that they couldn't hold their ground if they won? All it says, is that both sides were winded, and victory wasn't assured......that is ALL it says. It doesn't say that the SM were at a disadvantage in numbers, or firepower, or anything like that. So to say that the SM would probably have lost is speculation with no foundation to back it up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote:Dante hasn't lived for 1000+ years by making stupid decisions.
Apparently he's lived for 1000+ years because he runs away from fights
bmoleski wrote:
The fluff says they can't GUARANTEE a victory. It doesn't say anywhere than failure is certain or that continued resistance would be futile. I've never heard of SM backing down just because they MIGHT NOT win.
That's because SM aren't always alone?
If they're operating by themselves--they will pull back if facing an overwhelming force.
Except the force wasn't overwhelming. Neither side could guarantee victory over the other.
But one side can guarantee that the majority of their forces will be rebuilt at a later date--the other can't.
Not if the force is cut apart with chainswords and broken down for scrap metal.
Necrons still phase out in the fluff of the new codex......at least I'm 99% sure they do, haven't read that book in a while, either way, cutting it up in little pieces will only delay them from getting back up page 20 of the new codex, theirs a story about a bunch of orks that run into some necrons that come from under the water, the warboss noticed they they just kept getting back up, so he attempted to chop them up into little pieces.....but they still got back up.
bombboy1252 wrote:Necrons still phase out in the fluff of the new codex......at least I'm 99% sure they do, haven't read that book in a while, either way, cutting it up in little pieces will only delay them from getting back up page 20 of the new codex, theirs a story about a bunch of orks that run into some necrons that come from under the water, the warboss noticed they they just kept getting back up, so he attempted to chop them up into little pieces.....but they still got back up.
Actually, that's not what happens in that story.
After the part about him smashing them into tiny bits, the necrons actually start to fail to regenerate. And then he gets blown up by a monolith.
And I'm not sure that they do phase out anymore...
They do. The mechanics of it (table-top) are slightly different than before, making them slightly less universally-immortal, but with Res Orbs and other bits of wargear, individual squads/all Necrons within X range of specific units and so forth, might be more frequently resurrecting than previously.
Fluff-wise? Still immortal robots that stand up in green flames and get back to the business of being Terminators.
Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.
(emphasis mine)
If the sentence would have ended after "...victory over the other" we could continue to debate this. Allying with Xeno Scum aside, the notion that Blood Angels would actually be BOTHERED by turning on their allies of convenienceis foul. Also, in the SW example given, the Eldar were actually returning the bodies and battle armor of their fallen brothers. That buys you enough time to collect your own dead and GTFO the planet. That makes enough sense to me. The Necrons and BA just opt to stop fighting, given their depleted state. Sure, i buy that. But for them to feel BAD about actually turning on the enemy and finishing the fight? Ridiculous.
The fact that necrons view other life in the galaxy with anything other than utter contempt is my real problem with the new book. Oh sure, people will continue to parrot why the newcron fluff is better because it is less "one dimensional," etc etc, but there are a number of ways to make the Newcron fluff an exploration of the old without a total retcon. For instance: Only one or two Tombworlds were coming on line with the last book. Those Warriors awakened were mostly controlled by automation, more of a defense response than any real coherant strategy. As higher and higher level Lords were awoken (in response to the data gathered by the automated systems) more worlds were roused for the ancient Ctan's thirst for life. The new characters and slightly larger autonomy can be explained by those Lords actually belonging to other C'tan devoured by the Nightbringer and others. When their Ctan was destroyed, they went offline, and after all this time they have regained their autonomy. And now we can start bringing in the other two gods. Was the idea of ACTUAL gods being on the field silly? Yes. Would it make more sense if they were merely representations of their power in the form of imbued metal? Yup. Already seen it. Easy enough to explain that people were merely mistaken about what they saw, rather than change everything. What's the difference? Explanation. A single throw away line can patch many a plot hole. And by hanging a lampshade on a plot hole you can make it more mysterious.
So this thread tells me the entire reason the internet hates Matt Ward is because he once wrote a blurb about how one time some Blood Angels didn't try to kill some Necrons.
DarknessEternal wrote:So this thread tells me the entire reason the internet hates Matt Ward is because he once wrote a blurb about how one time some Blood Angels didn't try to kill some Necrons.
This remains unconvincing.
That post tells me that you haven't read the whole thread.
Commander Dante and the 3rd Company battle against the Necron Legions of the Silent King amidst the dusty wastes of Gehenna. For three weeks, neither side can seize the upper hand, with Dante's tactical brilliance stretched to its limits in countering the time-space manipulations of the Silent King. The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit, forcing the two armies to break off hostilities and fight the common foe. The impromptu alliance proves to be the Tyranids' undoing. Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other, and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a rather distasteful one.
(emphasis mine)
If the sentence would have ended after "...victory over the other" we could continue to debate this. Allying with Xeno Scum aside, the notion that Blood Angels would actually be BOTHERED by turning on their allies of convenienceis foul. Also, in the SW example given, the Eldar were actually returning the bodies and battle armor of their fallen brothers. That buys you enough time to collect your own dead and GTFO the planet. That makes enough sense to me. The Necrons and BA just opt to stop fighting, given their depleted state. Sure, i buy that. But for them to feel BAD about actually turning on the enemy and finishing the fight? Ridiculous...
The mentioned Space wolf example also failed to note that a single stray mistranslation during the parley over parting gifts caused tempers to flair and insults followed. Soon, the Space Wolves & the Eldar were fighting eachother AND the orks as well. The three way war ment a total war that devastated the entire sector.
Besides, to me the real problem with the BA/'cron alliance was that the Tyranids showed up in the first place! In both the previous Necron & Tyranid backgrounds, it's been explicitly mentioned that the Tyranids actively avoid Necron Tomb Worlds due to the sheer lack of almost any kind of biological matter.
The 'nids aren't going to expend the resources to drive off an entire Tomb World of necrons, just to eat up perhaps a company or two of Space Marines at most.
DarknessEternal wrote:So this thread tells me the entire reason the internet hates Matt Ward is because he once wrote a blurb about how one time some Blood Angels didn't try to kill some Necrons.
This remains unconvincing.
For those of you that Tl;dr
Basically It's his rather poor fluff writing skills and inabilty to externally balance the codecies with the external rulebook. (and for breakng fantasy 7th ed thank you O spirttual liege)
Spoiler:
Matthew Ward (more commonly known as Matt Ward and less commonly known as "dickface") is your Spiritual Liege the fething devil a writer an Ultrasmurf fanboy working for GW .
There are few things so capable of inflicting apocalyptic rage in the 40k community at large than this man, and its important to understand why. Almost any designer worth his salt at Games Workshop will be hated by somebody for something, and every writer's fluff will contradict somebody else's sacred vision of universe. Gav Thorpe will never be forgiven for Codex: Chaos Marines, Cruddance will forever be loathed by Tyranid players world wide, C.S. Goto will always be synonymous with pooping on a typewriter. But nobody, nobody, in Games Workshop will ever be so universally reviled as Matthew Ward.
*snip*
Hating Matt Ward on /tg/ is almost so universal it's painful these days. Although his fluff writing skills are beyond terrible, he has been improving as far as writing balanced codices go (arguably). So one must ask, why all the unfettered rage? Can't /tg/ just ignore his fluff and play the game for what it is? Why not just make up your own fluff and ignore the guy?
*snip*
Matt Ward takes those elements away from the player. The biggest rage-inducing codex he has made thus far is the Ultramarines codex, which explicitly stated that all chapters, excluding a few "aberrants", behave and think in exactly the same manner as his army – Ultramarines, his chosen faction. He spelled out the organization patterns, the ideologies, who they revere and why, and then proceeded to tell the community at large that if they don't do it that way, then they're making their army wrong.
*snip*
The biggest offender of Matt's “tell not show” policy is Kaldor Draigo, the Grey Knights' supreme grand master, whose main personality trait is “badass”. Without rhyme, reason, or feasible explanation, Draigo simply exists as this whirlwind of enemy-destroying fiction in his codex. He pops in and out of the Warp, wrecking everything, everywhere, without so much a minute of exposition or explanation. Draigo is a concept – a meaningless one without any emotional impact. He's not a person or anything to which the average man can relate. Ward has simply declared him the best ever, and he has done so in canon, so it is so.
So Ward is hated for these among other reasons. He yanks the floorboards out from underneath your army, telling you that you're playing the game wrong and giving your army the wrong characteristics, and then shoves a handful of nothing against your chest, insisting that, yes, this is what you've been missing all along. He's that jerk that leans over your shoulder, breathing heavily and telling you where to move your guys. He's that sweaty donkey-cave that cheats on his dice rolls because he's not there to drink beer and chat with you. He's that complete moron in the room that everyone pegs as a sucker, and he's the only one who doesn't realize he's not a genius. Matt Ward is that guy. Yes, that guy.
*snip*
Spoiler:
There is a disturbing tendency in Matt Ward's works to have the Sisters of Battle get horribly butchered in roughly 70% of the fluff that Ward has thus far written. Whilst the penultimate example is the Khornate Knights incident, there's at least half-a-dozen works in official canon since the release of the new edition rulebook where the Sisters get horrifically butchered or worse. Virtually the entire Sisters of Battle army was retconned out of existence by the omission of two paragraphs of text in the fifth-edition rulebook, and there are multiple cases of the sisters being corrupted, destroyed, and/or massacred. All of this has led many to ask uncomfortable questions regarding Ward's sexual deviancy that nobody really wants the answers to, since he really, really seems to like him some sexist snuff.
The funny thing about the idea that he loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooves Ultramarines is that Ward's first army(as in: the one which was shown to be "his" during a White Dwarf battle report where he played against Jervis' Ultramarines. This was in the issue, mind you, where the current plastic Terminator kit was unveiled)--and the only one which GW has actually showcased parts of(notably a few Cryptek conversions)--is Necrons.
Henners91 wrote:Sorry but the Marines' typical modus operandi (especially if they're BAs) is meathead bravado.
You guys are no longer allowed to be mad at Mat Ward.
bmoleski wrote:Where does it say that nothing would be gained by continuing the fight? Where does it say they all the SM would die of they kept fighting? It doesn't say either of those things. Space Marines exist to rid the galaxy of any threats to the Imperium even at the cost of their own lives, so leaving the Necros be even though they were still able to fight on is entirely non-Space Marine like behavior. They potentially COULD HAVE won against the Necrons. It just says victory wasn't assured......but then it wasn't assured at the start of the fight either.....so why retreat now when nothing has really changed?
bmoleski wrote:How can anyone surmise that they most likely would have lost? Or that they couldn't hold their ground if they won? All it says, is that both sides were winded, and victory wasn't assured......that is ALL it says. It doesn't say that the SM were at a disadvantage in numbers, or firepower, or anything like that. So to say that the SM would probably have lost is speculation with no foundation to back it up.
No one can assume anything.
Thats rather the point.
The Necrons and Blood Angels had previously fought each other to a standstill. If, after beating up the Tyranids the balance of power has shifted even a tiny amount then the Blood Angels will lose. Perhaps drastically. And there is no way to know if or how much the balance on power has shifted. To simply resume the attack as if nothing had happened would be the mark of a truly foolish leader. To resume the attack would be to bet the lives of all Astartes under your command on a coin toss.
Astartes are worth more than that. So they withdraw. It makes perfect sense.
Kaldor wrote: The Necrons and Blood Angels had previously fought each other to a standstill. If, after beating up the Tyranids the balance of power has shifted even a tiny amount then the Blood Angels will lose. Perhaps drastically. And there is no way to know if or how much the balance on power has shifted. To simply resume the attack as if nothing had happened would be the mark of a truly foolish leader. To resume the attack would be to bet the lives of all Astartes under your command on a coin toss.
Astartes are worth more than that. So they withdraw. It makes perfect sense.
Wait lemme get your logic straight here:
1) The battle is raging with no clear victor.
2) The battle is interrupted and former nemeses become allies.
3) After they're allies, the balance of power may have shifted.
4) Because it might have shifted, it's possible it shifted in the Necron's favor.
5) Because of fog of war, you can't ever be sure if it shifted in their favor, or even whether or not it shifted at all 6) Therefore, retreat.
That doesn't make sense. Marine's don't withdraw because it's possible that the battle may have turned against them but you can't even tell if it changed at all!
That's dumb.
I'm sure if the defenders of Terra had been like "Well, let's retreat, it's possible, though I can't tell, that this battle may going against us" then the Horus Heresy would've ended very differently.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I'm sure if the defenders of Terra had been like "Well, let's retreat, it's possible, though I can't tell, that this battle may going against us" then the Horus Heresy would've ended very differently
The future of humanity =/= a small unimportant battle in space.
The birthplace of humanity is probably the only place every human would fight to the death to defend irrelavant of the odds.
Unit1126PLL wrote:1) The battle is raging with no clear victor.
2) The battle is interrupted and former nemeses become allies.
3) After they're allies, the balance of power may have shifted.
4) Because it might have shifted, it's possible it shifted in the Necron's favor.
5) Because of fog of war, you can't ever be sure if it shifted in their favor, or even whether or not it shifted at all 6) Therefore, retreat.
Yes. It's the only intelligent and logical thing to do. Old intelligence regarding the Necron forces is now invalidated and there is no way to gather new intelligence. The Necrons may have fared better than the Blood Angels, and they may have fared worse. It's a 50/50.
You do NOT, EVER risk the lives of soldiers, especially soldiers as valuable and limited as Astartes, on a 50/50 gamble unless you absolutely have to. Certainly not for a prize so small.
There are only ~1,000,000 Astartes in the galaxy. Thats roughly one for every planet in the Imperium. You don't throw away the lives of such valuable soldiers for nothing. You withdraw, gather new intelligence, regroup, and strike when the odds are stacked in your favour.
I think people hate the Blood Angel thing is because they dont want to change their opinions on it. When if first game out it was HORRIBLE
What happened? New Necron codex. With the new codex it actually makes perfect sense. Before the problem was the Necrons, a force determined to remove all life and are robots, allied with a lifeform and than let the lifeform leave after the battle.
In the new codex, it actually makes sense because the goals of the Necrons are different. This new fluff is okay.
That does not mean the Grey Knights or Ultramarines stuff is okay, Im just saying the Blood Angel and Necron isnt as bad as it once was. Its actually okay now
My few cents on the BA/Necron thing. I don't have an issue with the fact they ended up in a temporary alliance of necessity, especially given the NewCron fluff and the emphasis on the Lord's personality.
And given the Blood Angels have the 'He who sheds blood with me shall be my brother' thing as a very big cornerstone of their honor, once again not so much of an issue that they don't like turning on those they fought alongside.
My issue is with the crappy wording of the whole bit of fluff, and that they don't address the fact they were dealing with xenos. Literally a few lines here or there about this internal honor conflict arising before since it was with xenos would smooth a bunch of stuff out. Or have them want to fight them, but their honor code demands otherwise, and without honor they are no better than the xenos, etc etc. Rather than this stupid up in the air middle ground.
A smarter option would have been to go with Blood Axe Orks. They have been known to fight for the Imperium if given the right incentive, they have some sort of honor code when challenged, and Dante and crew can respect their strength and such.
But ultimately the timing of the fluff was horrible since the NewCron fluff didn't exist then and they should have been the unflinching machines of death they were before back then. The Lords did have personality back then still, but they were far more concerned with their lawn and property than dicking around with humans back then.
"Get off my lawn Astartes! And put that Garden Squat where you found it! I know it was you you pesky mortals! *Shakes boney old metalic fist menacingly*"
The Blood Angel + Necron fist bump is only my personal reason for hating Matt Ward's fluff. Seems like a lot of people have different grudges for equally valid reasons, so let's give the BA/'cron beef a rest for a bit while other people take turns airing theirs.
Luke_Prowler wrote:Can we move on from the NecronxBlood Angel thing and focus on something else?
Like Blood Tide from the GK codex. That's always a fun one
Well and truly flogged the grey knights and that particular dead horse.
Nom
There isn't a single argument in this thread that hasn't been done a thousand times over, so we're already up to our knees in glue. Besides, the question was why we hate Ward, and the SOB murder-thon is a valid reason
1d4chan wrote: There is a disturbing tendency in Matt Ward's works to have the Sisters of Battle get horribly butchered in roughly 70% of the fluff that Ward has thus far written. Whilst the penultimate example is the Khornate Knights incident, there's at least half-a-dozen works in official canon since the release of the new edition rulebook where the Sisters get horrifically butchered or worse. Virtually the entire Sisters of Battle army was retconned out of existence by the omission of two paragraphs of text in the fifth-edition rulebook, and there are multiple cases of the sisters being corrupted, destroyed, and/or massacred.
Nom
Luke_prowler wrote:
There isn't a single argument in this thread that hasn't been done a thousand times over, so we're already up to our knees in glue. Besides, the question was why we hate Ward, and the SOB murder-thon is a valid reason
Luke_Prowler wrote:Can we move on from the NecronxBlood Angel thing and focus on something else?
Like Blood Tide from the GK codex. That's always a fun one
Well and truly flogged the grey knights and that particular dead horse.
Nom
There isn't a single argument in this thread that hasn't been done a thousand times over, so we're already up to our knees in glue. Besides, the question was why we hate Ward, and the SOB murder-thon is a valid reason
But hasn't that SOB murder-thon argument been a thousand times over as well? So why bother right?
Anyway I will talk about my cents on that one. There was no need for it, and it is stupid, and fetish fuel. I can see the twisted logic behind it, but it is just stupid and should not be there. And rustles my jimmies almost as much as them using Daemon Weapons now. I just don't like thinking about that abomination of a Codex all together.
Vault of Labyrinths... Vault.... of Labyrinths. HOW DO YOU HAVE A VAULT OF LABYRINTHS!? HOW!? ARGGGHHH!
Sorry I need to go take a rage break and punch something. Someone have a baby I could borrow? That is how angry Mat Ward's Codex Grey Knights makes me.
Vault of Labyrinths... Vault.... of Labyrinths. HOW DO YOU HAVE A VAULT OF LABYRINTHS!? HOW!? ARGGGHHH!
Tzeentch has created 12 divergent dimensions all at once crisscrossing in ways that don't make, just as his basic home. How is that a thing to be even a problem by any measure?
Vault of Labyrinths... Vault.... of Labyrinths. HOW DO YOU HAVE A VAULT OF LABYRINTHS!? HOW!? ARGGGHHH!
Tzeentch has created 12 divergent dimensions all at once crisscrossing in ways that don't make, just as his basic home. How is that a thing to be even a problem by any measure?
I don't so much have an issue with WHAT it is, so much as it is just a terrible name for something and offends my senses.
Tzeentch and I have an understanding. He helps me program in Excel VBA, and I proliferate his message of inevitable change to the masses. Seriously lost count of how many times the saying;
"Change is inevitable, all you can do is ensure it happens in your favor"
has come up in my years. I use it to preface business cases that I need to bring forward to drive correct process change a lot. And no one can argue against it effectively.
To put it simply though, I'd rather have Matt Ward writing for Dark Angels.
No more Jarvis, and certainly not cruddance. At the least they might be unique enough that they won't be replaced by the Vanilla codex again, for the third consecutive time..
ZebioLizard2 wrote:To put it simply though, I'd rather have Matt Ward writing for Dark Angels.
No more Jarvis, and certainly not cruddance. At the least they might be unique enough that they won't be replaced by the Vanilla codex again, for the third consecutive time..
Three things.
1 - It's Jervis.
2 - It's Cruddace. No 'N'.
3 - Is there anything thats actually unique about the Dark Angels? The only differences between them and Codex marines that I can think of are aesthetic. I mean, theres the deathwing and ravenwing army types, but do we really need a whole other codex just for that?
Luke_Prowler wrote:Besides, the question was why we hate Ward, and the SOB murder-thon is a valid reason
No it isn't. Because it is something found among all authors (since "there is only War" and all that). But only forwarded as a reason to "hate" one of them. Hence, double standards.
Space Wolves Codex 5th wrote:
A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and asses the Space Woves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's gun. Almost a year later, the Ecclesiarchy and three orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to enter Fenrisian space in force. The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces.
Ward's descriptions are obviously far more visceral than the dry accountant-style prose of Kelly. But the act is the same. Ecclesiarchy and Adepta Sororitas get attacked for no good reason all over. It's 40K. It's "grimdark". There is only war. Adepta are not excepted.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:To put it simply though, I'd rather have Matt Ward writing for Dark Angels.
No more Jarvis, and certainly not cruddance. At the least they might be unique enough that they won't be replaced by the Vanilla codex again, for the third consecutive time..
Three things.
1 - It's Jervis.
2 - It's Cruddace. No 'N'.
3 - Is there anything thats actually unique about the Dark Angels? The only differences between them and Codex marines that I can think of are aesthetic. I mean, theres the deathwing and ravenwing army types, but do we really need a whole other codex just for that?
Huh, been misspelling those two for a while than. Thanks for that.
3: While it's never reflected in the gameplay is the fact that they have a large array of pre-heresy tech that they can still continue to produce unlike most of the Imperium, not to mention the varied technology that far outweighs even the most advanced tech within the imperium, with Azreals helmet for note, which can grant an invulnerable save bubble of 4++ to an entire squad while being held by someone else due to its force field technology all pent up in a HELMET. Alot of this could come down to new and vastly different technological weapons, and yes, cheaper and more common plasma. (But not plasma plasma plasma)
They've also gained strange new devices from the Watchers in the Dark sometimes going up to them and giving them the artifacts which have never been seen before, crafted by them for unique purposes, not to mention being unique little buggers which are almost like pariahs in that they can nullify the warp around them, and even will carry weapons into battle. Though they never fight directly.
Along with the special weapons crafted from the jet black meteor that crashed into the rock which is carved and given to masters as a showing of their induction to the circles (Azreal again with his S6 sword, Belial and Sammeal for some reason have less..effective ones for some unexplained reason)
They have special chaplains devoted entirely to torture and forcing repenting Fallen ones with the special Blades of Reason, not to mention the special rosaries carried by those who have converted a number of them. Not sure what to do with them, but hey their nice.
Their Tech marines and servitors are far greater in number, due in part to how many numbers of those who fail to become dark angels, or fail to rise up in the ranks becoming forced into becoming servitors. Not to mention they have entire groups of "Iron Wing" battalions.
They also are one of the most shooty of the armies, originally in the fluff being the only one with double twin linked weapons. (And still now the only one with TL missile launchers and TL Lascannon's) I'd love to see them finally get the proper Mortis dreadnought included into their list
And they also used to have a thing for special standards, not sure what to do with those so much but they had them at one point that granted bonus to squads within 12", even having one that granted an overwatch like effect at one point.
Atma01 wrote:Vault of Labyrinths... Vault.... of Labyrinths. HOW DO YOU HAVE A VAULT OF LABYRINTHS!? HOW!? ARGGGHHH!
Just double checking, you know they are artifacts called labyrinths, and not the traditional mazes, right?
Yes. But that name. It just makes me see red. But as bad as they rustles my jimmies, the fluff for Draigo makes me black out with rage. And wake up later covered in blood. And it isn't the good kind of blood like Sororitas blood.
It also annoys me greatly that some of his changes to their army structure like giving them battlefield Apothecaries again aren't even original. I'm surprised we didn't find some copy paste errors straight out of their Realms of Chaos entry.
Basically I just miss the days of the 2nd Ed Dark Millennium fluff when they were really special, and the days of the 3rd Ed fluff which was more or less a logical and fleshed out extension of the 2nd Ed fluff. Before they became just super special Vanilla Marine Army List that is good at killing Daemons. And much of what is there is simply pissing on the memory of that old fluff. Like how much it cost them and the Space Wolves to banish Angron during the first war for Armageddon. Now its just call in Draigo and everyone can sit back and relax with a nice warm glass of Sororitas blood and watch a show.
I'm madder than Khorne about that whole Codex and that I should calm down, but it really does rustle my jimmies.
Kaldor wrote:
3 - Is there anything thats actually unique about the Dark Angels?
The correct answer to this is "not any more".
Dark Angels used to have several key differences in their army lists. However, nearly all of those differences have been incorporated into the vanilla Space Marine list.
They could either make Dark Angels special characters for Codex Space Marine, or they really have to think of something new for them to warrant a new codex.
To which it should be added that most of the options which made the Dark Angels unique in 3rd edition (all-Terminator lists, all-bike lists, Dreadnoughts with two heavy weapons) had in any case been available to all codex chapters in 2nd.
I don't mind his rules as much as most people do. Codex creep has been a bit more apparent with some of his rules but that might be more of GW leading the way and him following orders.
I can't stand his fluff writing. If you do, that's fine, there's certainly a lot of it lately for you to enjoy, but it's just a bit too Marry Sue for me.
Wiki wrote:
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.
Let's have a look at Dark Eldar, shall we?
Phil Kelly wrote:
Asdrubael Vect is quite simply the most devious and intelligent Dark Eldar ever to have existed. His milk-white skin bears not a single scar, though his void-black eyes convey so much hatred that his soul must be calloused indeed. Such is his mind's complexity that it could be likened to a fractal's edge or the crystal labyrinth of Tzeentch. His psyche is a near-infinite palace of plans, counter-measures and ploys that take centuries to come to fruition, but to one who has lived for many millenia, the passage of a hundred years is little more than the passing of a season. There is no intrique Vect has not thwarted a dozen times over, no treachery he has not forseen and turned upon itself.
What I am getting is he has written some rules that some feel are OP, while other feel are ok. I am also getting he is disliked for changing stuff(Some of which could have used the change) and just disliked as some people just want someone to dislike.
All in all what I am taking from this thread is Matt ward hate is overblown and just a bandwagon to jump on as he seems no worse in what he has done then most of the other current GW writers.
nomsheep wrote:That hate for ward started with 7th ed deamons and will continue on throughout his career.
Nom
What I have taken form that is, people are gonna hate everything he makes because of one book, even if that one book has no bearing on his later books.I honestly have yet to see anything brought up in the 40k line that seems worse then what others have done. If your really dislike it blame GW as they gave the go ahead.
Yeah basically. One awful, awful book has tainted his career and everything he does from then on will be scoured with a microscope cos of the mess he made of deamons.
7th Edition WFB Daemons were a mild oddity compared to the problems caused by 40K's 3.5. Chaos Dex or 4th Edition Cheese Falcons or, infact, 5th Edition IG combined with the old Daemonhunter Dex.
This has been interesting for me as I am new. But really I am not seeing anything that honestly justify the level of hate I have seen yet. He made one poor book, I myself while still reading it am liking the Necron book quite a bit really.
nomsheep wrote:Yes, I preferred 4th and Rogue trader.(before my time though.)
Both editions that I skipped. That being said, I heard that RT was less a wargame and more a collaborative RPG with miniatures. 4th, I've heard, was a bit broken when it came to vehicles and such... I can say that 5th is miles better than 2nd or 3rd though and people I know, and respect, say the same for it being better than 4th.
nomsheep wrote:He made two immensely overpowered books.
None near as bad as Cruddace IG, Kelly's 4th Edition Eldar, 5th Edition Space Wolves or some of the old guards books like Chaos 3.5.
nomsheep wrote:
had a hand the worst edition of 40k yet.
The best edition in my humble opinion. If you prefer older, using them is not outlawed I believe.
nomsheep wrote:
Invalidated every SM army that wasn't um by saying that all others are 'wrong'
How so? As noted, his efforts to boost non-UM are unprecedented for a Codex Space Marines. All those "better" older editions have boosted UMs far more vocally.
nomsheep wrote:
SLaughtered sisters in 70% of his fluff.
As does Kelly. See Space Wolves, etc.. .
nomsheep wrote:
but its not what he does its the zeal he seems to show in interviews explaining why x army should be god.
So he does his job of promoting new stuff convincingly, while the jaded disinterest is palpable with Kelly (Pirates aside) and Cruddace (IG aside). That sure is damning I admit.
I actually did a breakdown in a previous thread of UM content in previous codexes (2nd, 3rd and 4th) versus current (5th) and Ward's codex had the most non-UM material of any of the book. (Counted SCs / unique units between chapters and also pages of fluff between chapters in all SM codexes.)
There's really nothing wrong with the newest IG book. There is a common perception that a lot of the units are undercosted, but it is largely balanced in the current edition. Powerful, but balanced.
Bit of a thread jack, but could you tell me what is wrong with that one? I am asking as I just ordered it to build my army with so was wondering.
The worst of it is contained (thanks to Ward not the least) as Daemon-Hunter allies are no longer allowed.
But it has alot of highly underpriced units like the Vendetta or Manticore, the fact that it largely cancels out its own supposed flaws by shelterin its "weak" troops in cheap transports generously outfitted with fire points and often makes a mocking of the entire "humble troop" approach with veterans and the order system which results in more special weapons than most space marines are allowed wielded by troops that shoot as good, if not better, nor suffer any drawbacks in mobility or morality or, if kitted right, even close combat abilities compared to the supposed elite of "Marines", "Eldar", etc.. .
They are very powerful. But along with Kelly's "sit-back-gun-line" Space Wolves, I find the current IG badly written as a book because the result sits so much at cross purposes with the fluff. 5th Edition IG is largely about "elite"-skilled troops fielding the finest of Imperial Weapons (Powerswords, Plasma, Melta) to the battlefield inside transports whose mobility shames Eldar and whose firepower shames Marines for half the price.
Zweischneid wrote:
None near as bad as Cruddace IG, Kelly's 4th Edition Eldar, 5th Edition Space Wolves or some of the old guards books like Chaos 3.5.
I got bored of IG before i read the rules, eldar suck now, wolves i agree with and before my time with the others so i can't comment. Grey Knights trumps that. and i've flogged the deamon horse.
The best edition in my humble opinion. If you prefer older, using them is not outlawed I believe.
that's just my opinion here, not something he's done wrong. YMMV
How so? As noted, his efforts to boost non-UM are unprecedented for a Codex Space Marines. All those "better" older editions have boosted UMs far more vocally.
To much reliance on IC's for flavour and he does state the any who don't want to be ultramarines are abherrant(sp?).
As does Kelly. See Space Wolves, etc.. .
They've become a whipping post for any army that needs corpses or victims. i will be shocked if they are butchered in the new CSM as well.
So he does his job of promoting new stuff convincingly, while the jaded disinterest is palpable with Kelly (Pirates aside) and Cruddace (IG aside). That sure is damning I admit.
not sure if serious. I'm refering to his UM's are god interview and cos they're deamons interview.
nomsheep wrote:Yes, I preferred 4th and Rogue trader.(before my time though.)
Both editions that I skipped. That being said, I heard that RT was less a wargame and more a collaborative RPG with miniatures. 4th, I've heard, was a bit broken when it came to vehicles and such... I can say that 5th is miles better than 2nd or 3rd though and people I know, and respect, say the same for it being better than 4th.
Difference of POV, I guess.
Bit broken you say?
It was the edition of skimmer rape.
Tri-Falcon Eldar beat out everything, along with tau fish of FURY!
People don't seem to remember that eldar, despite their blandness were one of the most OP things due to how bad the skimmer rules were in that edition.
not sure if serious. I'm refering to his UM's are god interview and cos they're deamons interview.
Look on this forum, you'll find people doing the very same with their own favorite backstories and factions about how awesome they are over everyone else. It's not a thing related to just ward.
To much reliance on IC's for flavour and he does state the any who don't want to be ultramarines are abherrant
Because they phased out the rules for independent army lists that don't rely on sc's, the same happened to IG. Also I chalk that last one up to an Ultramarine writing it, as the abherrant chapters aren't dying out, but still thriving quite fondly.
I take about 50% of the fluff with salt generally, it's all propaganda and various misleading factors.
pretre wrote:There's really nothing wrong with the newest IG book. There is a common perception that a lot of the units are undercosted, but it is largely balanced in the current edition. Powerful, but balanced.
Zweischneid wrote:
Hunterindarkness wrote:
Bit of a thread jack, but could you tell me what is wrong with that one? I am asking as I just ordered it to build my army with so was wondering.
The worst of it is contained (thanks to Ward not the least) as Daemon-Hunter allies are no longer allowed.
But it has alot of highly underpriced units like the Vendetta or Manticore, the fact that it largely cancels out its own supposed flaws by shelterin its "weak" troops in cheap transports generously outfitted with fire points and often makes a mocking of the entire "humble troop" approach with veterans and the order system which results in more special weapons than most space marines are allowed wielded by troops that shoot as good, if not better, nor suffer any drawbacks in mobility or morality or, if kitted right, even close combat abilities compared to the supposed elite of "Marines", "Eldar", etc.. .
They are very powerful. But along with Kelly's "sit-back-gun-line" Space Wolves, I find the current IG badly written as a book because the result sits so much at cross purposes with the fluff. 5th Edition IG is largely about "elite"-skilled troops fielding the finest of Imperial Weapons (Powerswords, Plasma, Melta) to the battlefield inside transports whose mobility shames Eldar and whose firepower shames Marines for half the price.
Thank ya, I'll watch the point cost thing. Right now I had no plans to add those units anyhow.
nomsheep wrote:
but its not what he does its the zeal he seems to show in interviews explaining why x army should be god.
So he does his job of promoting new stuff convincingly, while the jaded disinterest is palpable with Kelly (Pirates aside) and Cruddace (IG aside). That sure is damning I admit.
I can't imagine I'm alone on this, but I found this interview with Kelly on Dark Eldar to be extremely interesting, and probably the most interesting roundtable on lore from Games Workshop.
It seemed to me that these two guys were extremely fixated on fleshing out the Dark Eldar lore and filled with a lot of creative energy. I had no interest in Dark Eldar as a faction prior to watching this interview and now I actually find them to be a rich and compelling part of the game...
But on that note I actually also found Mat Ward's interviews on lore to be pleasantly surprising, as foul as I happen to find his actual writing.
Unit1126PLL wrote:Here is an interesting point about the Ward hate:
People who say that it's just "bandwagoning" have to consider what they are saying.
Bandwagoning means that one is agreeing with a point of view merely to fit in.
If someone feels that they have to hate Mr. Ward simply to fit in, then I think something is terribly wrong.
I actually have a tendency to despise something more the more people there are that disagree with me. It fills me with a tremendous amount of resentment.
For instance, I hate Justin Bieber, but my rage is partially sated by the fact that everyone else with any taste also seems to despise him. Or another example being the righteous crusade against Rebecca Black (of "Friday" fame).
By contrast, I despise Katy Perry in part because everyone else seems to like this talentless bar wench.
My hatred is indirectly proportionate to the amount of other people that also hate that thing.
Unit1126PLL wrote:Here is an interesting point about the Ward hate:
People who say that it's just "bandwagoning" have to consider what they are saying.
Bandwagoning means that one is agreeing with a point of view merely to be one of the cool and/or mature 40K players
If someone feels that they have to hate Mr. Ward simply to cool and/or mature, then I think something is terribly wrong.
Fixed that for you.
You changed the definition. According to Wikipedia, bandwagoning is the "Appeal to the Majority" not "Appeal to the cool/mature types."
Just sayin'.
EDIT: And Mr. Nugent, I believe there are 2 reasons for that:
1) You are an anomaly / statistical outlier
2) You feel no need to fit in (possibly)
3) You consider yourself nonconformist (likely)
4) You consider yourself a rebel against normalcy (likely)
TedNugent wrote:By contrast, I despise Katy Perry in part because everyone else seems to like this talentless bar wench.
My hatred is indirectly proportionate to the amount of other people that also hate that thing.
So, basically, you're a hipster?
I guess you could say that, except I do not dress like a doofus and I do not shop at the thrift store.
I would say the differentiating factor between myself and hipsters is that hipsters intentionally have no taste, whereas I intentionally try to have good taste.
I also do not evaluate things based on their popularity, I evaluate them based on their content first and then adjust my levels of self righteousness based on how many people are also accurately gauging the value of that thing. Technically, when things that are wonderful and artistic receive recognition, I'm happy, not sullen. I think Warhammer has a lot of wonderful art and is bristling with creative energy, and I don't begrudge any recognition of that fact. Part of my crusade is getting people to see and enjoy wonderful art. That's why I say, when people, en masse, rage against autotuned clowns like Rebecca Black, I get giddy and chipper. It's great when beautiful things like Bach and Hayao Miyazaki receive popular recognition.
That's what distinguishes me from dingleberry hipsters.
Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I don't mean to snatch your hard-earned e-ownage away from you.
I guess you could say that, except I do not dress like a doofus and I do not shop at the thrift store.
I would say the differentiating factor between myself and hipsters is that hipsters intentionally have no taste, whereas I intentionally try to have good taste.
I also do not evaluate things based on their popularity, I evaluate them based on their content first and then adjust my levels of self righteousness based on how many people are also accurately gauging the value of that thing. Technically, when things that are wonderful and artistic receive recognition, I'm happy, not sullen. I think Warhammer has a lot of wonderful art and is bristling with creative energy, and I don't begrudge any recognition of that fact. Part of my crusade is getting people to see and enjoy wonderful art. That's why I say, when people, en masse, rage against autotuned clowns like Rebecca Black, I get giddy and chipper. It's great when beautiful things like Bach and Hayao Miyazaki receive popular recognition.
That's what distinguishes me from dingleberry hipsters.
Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I don't mean to snatch your hard-earned e-ownage away from you.
I hope this picture can be some consolation.
So, if you were to sum that all up in one sentence, basically you're a hipster?
I don't like Matt Ward because he a) cannot write believable characters and b) believes he's got an Emperor-given right to dictate our armies' attitudes towards things. The grand heroic Grey Knight who destroyed a Greater Daemon as a novice and was unanimously appointed Supreme Grand Master at an improbably young age is fine for wish fulfillment, but makes people other than the author roll their eyes and grumble. Telling us that he's universally beloved by all Grey Knights just makes it worse, especially when we've written our own slightly more believable/true to the grim nature of the universe characters for whom that is simply not true.
OP, one of the simplest things I can point out is that by your own admission your are new. And because of this you don't have the same accumulated amount of experience, knowledge and love of this hobby fluff/rules that were directly pissed on by his works. Much of what we talk about is subjective, but without hopping into a way back machine and investing over a decade of love into the Grey Knights and their established fluff you will not be able to truly fathom the sheer disgust I have for his GK fluff and his treatment of it.
Nor could I easily say that without the years of customer service experience could you see the same easily avoidable problems that should never have come to pass if he simply thought out what he said, or had someone with some sense like that looking over his shoulder.
People can write horrible fanfictions full of mary-sues until the cows come home. But since their works aren't going into print for the masses or carry any official weight as a developer none of that is relevant to this discussion. Mr. Ward is and does, and needs to carry himself as such a professional level demands or he validly opens himself up for criticism from the fans he says that he supposedly writes for.
I'm not trying to convince everyone to hate him, I am simply giving my stance as to why I refuse to purchase or even acknowledge any of his works until I see a change in his mentality and level of writing ability. As it stands in my mind they should just hire a 12 year old and pay them under the table, as that is the quality I believe we are getting and I am sure said 12 year old would not command anywhere near the same salary as Mr.Ward.
And like I pointed out before I hate his job and how he goes about it, but I am sure that he is a decent bloke IRL and wouldn't mind sharing a drink with him. Even if only so we can get really plastered and I can give a "Dude. C'mon. Seriously?" speech to him and hope for change.
Anyone else see the irony in the apologists stance in this that they simply protect Mr.Ward for equally subjective reasons to why we hate him and ignore that?
Hunterindarkness wrote:What I have taken form that is, people are gonna hate everything he makes because of one book, even if that one book has no bearing on his later books.I honestly have yet to see anything brought up in the 40k line that seems worse then what others have done. If your really dislike it blame GW as they gave the go ahead.
It's more a case of people loving to jump on the bandwagon for a bit of acceptance into the herd. It's percieved that people hate Mat Ward, so they say they hate him too so that everyone thinks they're cool, not because it's actually justifiable.
Even Draigo's fluff is cool, really.
nomsheep wrote:he does state the any who don't want to be ultramarines are abherrant(sp?).
I don't believe that actually appears anywhere in the codex.
Bit of a thread jack, but could you tell me what is wrong with that one? I am asking as I just ordered it to build my army with so was wondering.
But it has alot of highly underpriced units like the Vendetta or Manticore
The only severly underpriced unit in the entire book is the Vendetta. The Manticore is more a liability then a benefit.
The fact that it largely cancels out its own supposed flaws by shelterin its "weak" troops in cheap transports generously outfitted with fire points and often makes a mocking of the entire "humble troop" approach with veterans
Because our 55 point Chimera is somehow cheaper than a 35 Point Razorback, Rhino, or a Drop-anywhere-you-want-it-no-dangerous-mishaps-Pod? Please. It's the only thing protecting the 10 T3, +5 save Veterans.
The order system which results in more special weapons than most space marines are allowed wielded by troops that shoot as good, if not better, nor suffer any drawbacks in mobility or morality or, if kitted right, even close combat abilities compared to the supposed elite of "Marines", "Eldar", etc..
Orders are terrible. Please give me back Sharpshooters and Doctrines. And the reason IG can spam so many special weapons is because of the Infantry's stats and its main armament is a S3 AP - Lasgun.
I find the current IG badly written as a book because the result sits so much at cross purposes with the fluff. 5th Edition IG is largely about "elite"-skilled troops fielding the finest of Imperial Weapons (Powerswords, Plasma, Melta) to the battlefield inside transports whose mobility shames Eldar and whose firepower shames Marines for half the price.
Source please where the IG Codex only says 'largely about elite-skilled troops'. And they can't hold a candle to the Eldar's speed nor compete with the Marines sheer close combat prowess.
There's no broken Codex', despite the opressive wave of threads trying to argue otherwise. Matt Ward isn't too terrible when it comes to writing 40K Codex balance, barring a little bit for Grey Knights Shenanigans.
What I don't find appealing about Ward is his fluff writing. The Necrons were the exception to the rule. They were pretty good as a whole. (Except you'd think the Silent King would be more worried about Orks than Tyranids). I'm rather inclined to see what he does to the Black Templars...
Luke_Prowler wrote:Besides, the question was why we hate Ward, and the SOB murder-thon is a valid reason
No it isn't. Because it is something found among all authors (since "there is only War" and all that). But only forwarded as a reason to "hate" one of them. Hence, double standards.
Space Wolves Codex 5th wrote:
A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and asses the Space Woves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's gun. Almost a year later, the Ecclesiarchy and three orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to enter Fenrisian space in force. The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces.
Ward's descriptions are obviously far more visceral than the dry accountant-style prose of Kelly. But the act is the same. Ecclesiarchy and Adepta Sororitas get attacked for no good reason all over. It's 40K. It's "grimdark". There is only war. Adepta are not excepted.
How do you keep doing this over and over? The specific objection to the slaughter of the sisters is that it WAS done for a reason; a moronic one. The book spends page after page spanking over how the GK are the purest of the pure, more pure than anyone else, and that certain GK are even more pure than that.....and then describes them casually murdering sisters as if it's business as usual, then using their blood to perform a ritual that could be copy-pasted into the upcoming Chaos codex verbatim without seeming even slightly out of place. You cannot be both a pure servant of goodness and a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins during a dark ritual at the same time.
The incident with the Wolves and the Ecclesiarchy also happens for a reason, and not only is that reason consistent with the existing background, it is within character for both involved parties. They are fighting each other over a matter of principle/belief, not because the Wolves have suddenly decided that actually they're Chaos Space Marines.
This is exactly the problem people have with both Ward's writing, and the lemmings who rush to defend it; it's bad writing. The ideas are often quite good, but his execution is definitively, empirically, categorically, objectively bad. His heroes have no depth, no flaws, no contrast; they are all perfect paragons. Reading his stories is like watching those godawful and pretentious "reimaginings" of Shakespeare that every school drama class everywhere seems to do every few years. Draigo is so terrible that a mate of mine uses him as an example of how not to write a heroic character when teaching his English class, because the character is the very definition of a Mary Sue. He changes existing background on a whim, not because it needed changing to fit with other new stuff he'd written, or because it was horribly out of date, simply because he can.
In short, he's disliked because he's a bad writer; that's not an opinion, it's simply true, his works are packed end-to-end with examples of how -not- to write fiction straight out of textbooks.
I am not an unjust man by any means, so I shall give you the benefit of a 5 minute head start. But then the hunt begins.
Now can someone else confirm this for me, but when Chapter's Due was written and finally gave the Ultramarines some humble pie which everyone loved, Mr.Ward specifically set about changing some fluff so that the Daemon Prince in said novel could not have been on Macragge at the time just to invalidate the novel since it was his most favorite bestest ever Chapter that could do no wrong eating said pie? Because I remember that being the case, and highlights yet another issue I have with him. Though I did hear this 2nd hand so if I am wrong so be it and happy to be corrected, but if true it is exhibit A of the case for him being nothing more than a butthurt fanboy.
And to also illustrate just how alienated he is, no one really talks about Goto anymore. He was overshadowed by Ward. Mat Ward is the Stephanie Meyer of 40KIMO.
Yodhrin wrote:The specific objection to the slaughter of the sisters is that it WAS done for a reason; a moronic one. The book spends page after page spanking over how the GK are the purest of the pure, more pure than anyone else, and that certain GK are even more pure than that.....and then describes them casually murdering sisters as if it's business as usual, then using their blood to perform a ritual that could be copy-pasted into the upcoming Chaos codex verbatim without seeming even slightly out of place. You cannot be both a pure servant of goodness and a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins during a dark ritual at the same time.
lolwut?
It's 40K. Being a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins is almost mandatory for being a servant of goodness.
Now while theres the whole 'incorruptible' thing with the GK, how do we know anything about the blood tide? It obeys none of the normal rules for Chaotic posession, and perhaps would have caused a physical corruption that the GK purity of spirit would have been unable to over-come?
Personally I find most of the anger at Wards fluff is due to a chronic lack of imagination.
Grey Knights is not "Immensly" overpowered. It may be the strongest book out right now, but we know that Space Wolves and IG give it a run for it's money all the time. Necrons are also starting to win a lot of tournaments. No excuse for Daemons.
had a hand the worst edition of 40k yet.
5th is significantly better than 4th, IMO. 5th is probably one of, if not the best 40k Edition so far.
Invalidated every SM army that wasn't um by saying that all others are 'wrong'
I don't see how they are invalidated at all.
SLaughtered sisters in 70% of his fluff.
A Gross over-exaggeration.
Retconned the crons (thats good or bad depending on who you are)
Which was a Studio decision I'm sure. putting it all on him, is silly.
but its not what he does its the zeal he seems to show in interviews explaining why x army should be god.
I would rather the Author of my codex, show enthusiasm for it, than get something like Cruddace did for Tyranids.
Kaldor wrote:
Personally I find most of the anger at Wards fluff is due to a chronic lack of imagination.
It's true, most people here lack the imagination required to make Ward's writing good.
Hell, it'd be like imagining the piece of gak in one's hand is a banana.
Good luck with that boundless imagination. Because as mentioned above, there's an English professor who uses Draigo as an example of what NOT to do when writing about heroes.
I suppose you could imagine him laying laurels on Ward's feet, though, with such a vast imagination.
Yodhrin wrote:The specific objection to the slaughter of the sisters is that it WAS done for a reason; a moronic one. The book spends page after page spanking over how the GK are the purest of the pure, more pure than anyone else, and that certain GK are even more pure than that.....and then describes them casually murdering sisters as if it's business as usual, then using their blood to perform a ritual that could be copy-pasted into the upcoming Chaos codex verbatim without seeming even slightly out of place. You cannot be both a pure servant of goodness and a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins during a dark ritual at the same time.
lolwut?
It's 40K. Being a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins is almost mandatory for being a servant of goodness.
Now while theres the whole 'incorruptible' thing with the GK, how do we know anything about the blood tide? It obeys none of the normal rules for Chaotic posession, and perhaps would have caused a physical corruption that the GK purity of spirit would have been unable to over-come?
Personally I find most of the anger at Wards fluff is due to a chronic lack of imagination.
Except that in previous fluff they never liked the fact that they had to kill loyal servants of the Imperium just for knowing of their existence. Let alone consider murdering Sororitas in cold blood just to get their blood for a ritual of all things. Nor would they even consider touching a daemon weapon let alone wielding one in battle. Now its slaughter this and bath in that, and daemon weapons for EVERYONE pretty much. Almost a complete 180 on their fluff. Not to mention they were always struggling to fight the daemons and none were a push over, they were just simply the best at it given their incorruptible nature and all the various wards like the Aegis they had. Now they walk all over daemons like they were swatting flies. Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.
And lack of imagination? That is some dangerous ground to tread given some of the foibles in Ward's work. No one is saying we shouldn't get new things, we are saying that they should at least have some semblance of internal consistence. Or at least be written in a way that looks like a grown up wrote it and not some 12 year old on the internet spanking to his self insert fanfiction.
Wish I could find the drawing someone made of the battered Soroitas, with a Mat Ward looking Astartes in the background, with the text "I know that GW has done some bad things over the years but I still love him.". Because it more or less sums up many people's feelings on the matter.
Atma01 wrote: Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.
Did you actually read the Grey Knight Codex? Stern is vastly more successful than Draigo. Stern has accomplished something; Draigo has accomplished nothing.
Draigo is the Imperium's Abaddon except he doesn't kill his own guys. He's just as big a failure though.
Atma01 wrote: Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.
Did you actually read the Grey Knight Codex? Stern is vastly more successful than Draigo. Stern has accomplished something; Draigo has accomplished nothing.
Draigo is the Imperium's Abaddon except he doesn't kill his own guys. He's just as big a failure though.
That would be relevant had I said he was no longer a badass, or that he hadn't accomplished anything, or that we were making any form of measurement about accomplishment. Instead what I said (or meant to say at least) was his fluff in 3rd Ed was a good example of a badass character that wasn't perfect in everything he did. Draigo is the most mary-sue character in 40K at the moment since the CTan changed. And to be entirely fair, the CTan were Gods so some mary-sueishness is acceptable.
Though I did fail to put 3rd Ed in my comment so I can see some confusion as to what I put forward. For that I am sorry, but I am referring to back when Stern was THE GK character. Not any of his fluff now. >.< My bad.
Kaldor wrote:
Even Draigo's fluff is cool, really.
It makes Chaos Gods weak, they are that powerful and still they can get rid off one Grey Knight in the Warp.
If Draigo can do that to them without consequences then the Emperor will kill them all easily when he ascend into the Warp as God of Mankind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sasori wrote:
Invalidated every SM army that wasn't um by saying that all others are 'wrong'
I don't see how they are invalidated at all.
On that subject, if I want to write some fluff about my custom Space Marine Chapter I must have in mind that they want to be just like Ultramarine and that they recognize Calgar as their leader. When you say that everybody else want's to be Ultramarines then those army's lose their originality and personality because, according to fluff, they are all looking at Ultramarines as their idols. Then there is no question then why many people choose Black Templars or Space Wolves.
personally my 'favourite' Wardism is from the Space Marine codex, pg 36-37
Zanzag, an ork warboss, developed supercharged shootas that 'could punch through a Leman Russ' armour plating or even a Spave Marine's Power armour' (emphasis mine)
'Zanzag's supacharged shootaz might be able to penetrate power armour, but against the inviolable Tactical Dreadnought Armour they were near useless.'
It's like he's saying that a few Cm of ceramite in the SM power armour is better than several inches of the stuff in the LR's armour.
Anything that can puch holes in a Leman Russ would have no problem blowing holes in PA or even TDA, fluffwise.
Game rule wise there are things that are high str, low AP (the S 10, ap 4 Tfex cannon for example ... it can nuke a tank, but a SM will generally survive it), but it's still hilariously bad. The TDA's forcefields would help, no doubt. but if you can take out tanks with it, you can take out personal armour with it ...
Atma01 wrote: Draigo is the most mary-sue character in 40K
Not even a little bit. There is next to nothing written about Draigo's personality or character to know whether what he is like. All we know is that he has an iron determination, and that he is trapped in the warp and can no longer effect real change on the galaxy at large.
Brother Coa wrote:
Kaldor wrote:
Even Draigo's fluff is cool, really.
It makes Chaos Gods weak, they are that powerful and still they can get rid off one Grey Knight in the Warp.
If Draigo can do that to them without consequences then the Emperor will kill them all easily when he ascend into the Warp as God of Mankind.
Why would they want to get rid of him? He's trapped for their entertainment.
Atma01 wrote: Draigo is the most mary-sue character in 40K
Not even a little bit. There is next to nothing written about Draigo's personality or character to know whether what he is like. All we know is that he has an iron determination, and that he is trapped in the warp and can no longer effect real change on the galaxy at large.
>Implying that being a mary-sue has anything to do with personality and nothing to do with being the bestest at everything
No seriously what? He literally carved a name into the Demonic Primarch Mortation's heart. Not regular Primarch, ascended Demon form Primarch. LITERALLY. That is but ONE of the literal LIST of stupidly overpowered things Draigo has done. This was after the old fluff where like 100 of the GK's best terminators took on Angron and his retinue to banish him for 1000 years at best, and at a horrific cost of all of those lives save something like 3 from memory, and among the dead was the GK Grand Master of the time.
And you see NO issue with nothing being written about his personality or character? Because we all know that 'dark with mysterious past' is never the hallmark of a mary-sue now is it?
No seriously dude. You should probably stop trying to defend his fluff now. But if you are trolling me then well played. 10/10 cause I raged hard.
Atma01 wrote: Draigo is the most mary-sue character in 40K
Not even a little bit. There is next to nothing written about Draigo's personality or character to know whether what he is like. All we know is that he has an iron determination, and that he is trapped in the warp and can no longer effect real change on the galaxy at large.
>Implying that being a mary-sue has anything to do with personality and nothing to do with being the bestest at everything
No seriously what? He literally carved a name into the Demonic Primarch Mortation's heart. Not regular Primarch, ascended Demon form Primarch. LITERALLY. That is but ONE of the literal LIST of stupidly overpowered things Draigo has done. This was after the old fluff where like 100 of the GK's best terminators took on Angron and his retinue to banish him for 1000 years at best, and at a horrific cost of all of those lives save something like 3 from memory, and among the dead was the GK Grand Master of the time.
And you see NO issue with nothing being written about his personality or character? Because we all know that 'dark with mysterious past' is never the hallmark of a mary-sue now is it?
No seriously dude. You should probably stop trying to defend his fluff now. But if you are trolling me then well played. 10/10 cause I raged hard.
He sounds like either a die-hard GK fanboy or Matt Ward himself.
the 1d4chan article while crude pretty much sums everything correctly up.
I think people should look up what "Mary Sue" means.
Wiki wrote:
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.
The Dark Eldar example is still the best. Vect is the most intelligent, most devious, most brilliant, most everything. And his only "flaw" is that he came from a low background and had to "work" his way up the hierarchy. And the way the text is written about "milk-white" skin without a single scar and a psyche "a near infinite palace of plans" its text-book wishfulflilment for pudgy 15-year old boys who like to wear eye-shadows and write diaries bound with embossed black roses. Vects picture in the dictionary next to "Mary Sue" would not be out of place.
Phil Kelly wrote:
Asdrubael Vect is quite simply the most devious and intelligent Dark Eldar ever to have existed. His milk-white skin bears not a single scar, though his void-black eyes convey so much hatred that his soul must be calloused indeed. Such is his mind's complexity that it could be likened to a fractal's edge or the crystal labyrinth of Tzeentch. His psyche is a near-infinite palace of plans, counter-measures and ploys that take centuries to come to fruition, but to one who has lived for many millenia, the passage of a hundred years is little more than the passing of a season. There is no intrique Vect has not thwarted a dozen times over, no treachery he has not forseen and turned upon itself.
Draigo in comparison is just about as far away from Mary Sue as you can get in literature. He virtually defined by his flaw of eternal entrappment, of his inability to ever change anything, of his everpresent torment of having to choose between freedom through corruption and ineffectiveness through his own stoic resolution. And he sure as hell does not make Chaos weak. If Chaos had even the slightest weakness against Draigo, he would break the Chaos-curse upon him that is his predicament. All that chaos does is taunt him with mock-victories that mean nothing because they happen in the Warp, which is only, literally, a reflection of wishes, desires and thoughts in the first place.
Quoting a wiki article for a definition. Brb, I totally have some unrelated information change I need to do on the internet that totally won't change this argument.... *Rolls eyes* If you are seriously going to use the wiki article I will just get a round table going on /tg/ and someone will change it to whatever we agree upon. The 1d4chan is far more accurate since no one ever truly agrees on the definition.
And seriously? You have yet to address his powerlevel. PLEASE explain to me how that list of achievements he has pulled off is not power spank? He made Mortation look like a kitten, and practically flipped off Nurgle by burning his gardens without any sort of comeuppance. Oh no I am totally trapped in the warp, except for all those times I can come out and fight and totally own everything around me without even trying because I LITERALLY CARVED A NAME INTO THE BEATING HEART OF A DAEMON PRIMARCH.
I mean where can one go from there to out powerwank that? Will they retcon Abbaddon's fluff so there was this one time at Astartes camp he totally punched the Emperor in the face and got away with it? Or the Tau develop a way to control the Hive Mind? Or Eldrad claws his way back from death just to spit on the Nightbringer's shard and tell his children that everything is going just to his plan? Do you not see how stupidly this escalates when things aren't kept in check?
Since you seem so keen on quoting the Vect entry, care to share Draigo's with us? I mean fair is fair right? Lets put them side by side and let the comparisons show if they are so self evident.
Zweischneid wrote:I think people should look up what "Mary Sue" means.
Wiki wrote:
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional.
You clearly lack a deep understanding of your own definition.
Draigo is the embodiment of the following wish fulfillment - ultimate bad ass. Being trapped, that is to say, having a problem independent of the character and thus not a character flaw by definition, does not in any way limit the awesomeness of Draigo. It means that he is perennially romping around the Warp bashing Daemons skulls in. That's part of the problem. It's like saying a British soldier in World War 2 could waltz through Berlin and punch Hitler in the face, but the problem is that he was late to D-Day.
Also, self sacrifice and eternal commitment to one's charge is usually seen as a virtue. It's valorous. It's just another positive personality trait. Next question.
Atma01 wrote:
I mean where can one go from there to out powerwank that? Will they retcon Abbaddon's fluff so there was this one time at Astartes camp he totally punched the Emperor in the face and got away with it?
Atma01 wrote:And you see NO issue with nothing being written about his personality or character?
Firstly, the battle with Mortarion is no issue. Or at least it shouldn't be to anyone with a skerrick of imagination, because of course Mortarion was weakened by fighting the previous Supreme Grand Master, and this was in the middle of a battle. Perhaps it was a dedicated Grey Knights strike force, led by hundreds of Paladins and the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights and other sudry characters? Who knows, the background to the battle is never alluded to. And thats how I like it, it lets me put my own personal spin on it. It's definately one of those things where less is more.
Brother Coa wrote:No he is not, there is a paragraph that said: "even the Dark Gods cannot expel Draigo from the Warp."
So much about "entertainment" theory...
There is no such paragraph. The closest we get is "Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory"
Think about it. If you're eternal, then how precious is something you've never encountered before? Why would they want to simply destroy him when it's so much more fun to play with him and see which of them can break him?
Living forever in the Warp sounds kind of like sleeping in a bed of termites.
Does he ever get tired? If you wanted to go relax in the shade, you would get your face ripped off.
It compounds the insanity that he's literally trapped there and can't get out. How does he even stay alive, then? Every minute of every day he's chopping demons to bits?
Well, I cannot quote the full Draigo entry (neither did I for Vect) as I am likely already violating some copyright stuff.
But a sample if you wish
Grey Knights Codex wrote:
Through such acts, and many thousands more, did Kaldor Draigo forge a new legend, but this time in a domain where legend is the stuff of life. Rarely now did Daemons hount Draigo's footsteps. The Grey Knight had time and again proved his utter resistance to corruption, and had left so many thousands of slaughtered Daemons in his wake that now only the most crazed of Khorne's minions continued to seek his death. That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immunne to the will of the Chaos Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible. Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory. The Daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies, Nurgle's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the Invevitable City righted themselves.
[...]
Such has been Draigo's fate ever repeated since: to walk the Realm of Chaos for unknowable spans of time, on occasion taking his eternal battle into the mortal world for brief spans before being freshly jailed upon victory. It is hard to imagine the fortitude of character that allows Draigo to endure such hardship, yet endure it does. He walks the Realm of Chaos still, continuing his eternal battle against the Chaos Gods.
One day, he will return.
He has one outstanding characteristic.. incorruptability (no soft-white skin or anything of his physical features or abilities are described). And it is precisely his in-corruptability which seals his Sisyphian Challenge of fighting endlessly against something he can never win or even truly harm. It's a larger-than-life character aiming for greek-epic-style trageday for sure, Sisyphus being the most obvious inspiration, but he isn't unflawed or unconditionally "awsome" in the way Vect (or other DE characters) are described. His impact on the 40K universe is nearly null, far less certainly than, for example, the Decapitator who is about to end the entire universe for reasons unknown or, in plain straigh-up-battle, Maugan Ra who defends entire planets from Hive Fleets single-handedly and walks the Eye of Terror unbeaten, yet free to come and go as he pleases (unlike Draigo's exile).
And yes, I think Ward's focus on "events" compared with the dull, expositionary descriptives of Kelly is far superiour writing. Draigo is presented as iconic example of Grey Knight incorruptability and perseverance through a parable of events and epic history. Vect is presented as iconic example of brilliantly sadistic scheming Dark Eldar ways by being told straight to the readers face that "he is the most intelligent, most devious" there is. Yet Kelly never shows why or how this would be. It's just by arbitrary fiat Kelly that his characters are defined as such and we're expected to just eat it up. Ward, in contrast, provides context and story from which to infer characteristics of the dramatic persona. Ward's writing is lightyears ahead of Kelly's kindergarden-level of expositionary (and Mary-Sue-heavy) scribbling.
In other words a positive personality trait in fact so positive that it is mindboggling to the author ohmygodwishfullfilment.
The wonderful thing here is that Ward is doing my job for me. He didn't say "it's hard to quantify how much valor/endurance/incorruptibility Draigo has," he said point blank "It is hard to imagine" and "the fortitude of character" (emphasis added). So it's not even just that he's saying that he has one tremendous personality trait. He's saying that he has a fortuitous character that boggles the imagination.
That is to say, Draigo's character, net boggles imagination.
Look I am just going to walk away from this whole discussion. I tried logic and reasoning, but I believe you are being willfully ignorant in what you choose to acknowledge here.
You have an example of an English professor using him as an example of how NOT to write a character, and I know HBMC who writes for FFG now (as in PAID to write) agrees. If subject experts cannot sway your stance then so be it as much of this is subjective. But for your own sake I urge you to try and build a more coherent argument than what you have brought to the table here. As there are cruel people out there who will bring you to task for it.
But we have lost sight of the OP's intent. This is why WE as individuals hate Mat Ward, so it really doesn't fall to us to try and disprove opinions. Since ultimately that is impossible given they are opinions and that is just their nature. I don't have any respect for your opinions in this matter, but I will leave them alone from here on in.
I am not sure what your point is. You are free to hate anyone and anything all you want.
But if you come to a public board to broadcast your opinion, expect to see flawed reasoning being pointed out.
Oh, and I am paid to write too, and for GW-license products as well, and HBMC is quite known to be a fairly jaded revisionist whose opinion on just about everything 40K can be summed up as "everything was better in the old days".
Yet unlike you or others, I can formulate a reasoned opinion on my own, rather than trying to support my unreasoned hatred by the assumed authority implied by the fact that other (ideally with fancy titles, of which I too have a few nonetheless as that seems to be something you attribute authority to) share in that unreasoned hatred.
And since you "hate" Mat Ward, it is sure up to you to provide a coherent reasoning for it if you want to have your opinion taken seriously if you voice them publicly. It would be a sad world indeed if "hating" something was considered the default and it fell to others to "disprove" it.
Kaldor wrote:
There is no such paragraph. The closest we get is "Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory"
Think about it. If you're eternal, then how precious is something you've never encountered before? Why would they want to simply destroy him when it's so much more fun to play with him and see which of them can break him?
That is that paragraph, in other words: "Yet if the Chaos Gods could not banish/destroy/kill Draigo, then nor coudl Draigo win by any meaningful victory."
Witch means that Draigo can't defeat them but they also cannot kill him for some reason.
Witch means that Draigo is something Chaos Gods cannot kill - that is Matt Ward logic of a perfect Grey Knight.
Oh, and fact that he destroyed every God's most powerful Daemon and sacred object, all while being in the Warp, is even more hilarious that Chaos Gods not being able to kill him.
Hey now! Don't y'all be appealin' to authority using me as that authority!
If Ward is the Stephanie Myers of 40K writing, then Draigo is the Bella Swan of 40K fluff - a blank-slate characterless author-self-insertion fantasy for all the 12-year-old boys reading his fluff. He can do no wrong, he does things that no one else can do (and does them effortlessly), and his mere presence within the fluff invalidates so much sacrifice from other characters. It was almost as if after Cruddace had the Swarmlord gimp Carlgar, Ward had to do something, so came up with a character even more over the top, even more flawless and even more incorruptible.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Hey now! Don't y'all be appealin' to authority using me as that authority!
If Ward is the Stephanie Myers of 40K writing, then Draigo is the Bella Swan of 40K fluff - a blank-slate characterless author-self-insertion fantasy for all the 12-year-old boys reading his fluff. He can do no wrong, he does things that no one else can do (and does them effortlessly), and his mere presence within the fluff invalidates so much sacrifice from other characters. It was almost as if after Cruddace had the Swarmlord gimp Carlgar, Ward had to do something, so came up with a character even more over the top, even more flawless and even more incorruptible.
You mean Stephenie Meyer? And it's not Ward who is filling the 40K universe with hauntingly beautiful, white-skinned characters who squat around gloomy scenery as the brood, morbidly obsessed with proving to the uncaring world their non-mediocrity by any means necessary. That bill, once again, fits Vect, the Decapitator, etc.. . Oh. And Kelly also brings you the Wolf-team by turning a Chapter none previously for wolf-iconography into literally wolf-raised, wolf-born, wolfriding, wolf-claw wielding man-wolves.
Atma01 wrote:My favorite part of this thread Zwei, is where you ignored all my other posts on the matter. Like seriously dude, pull the other one. It has bells on.
I can hardly respond to every post by everyone posted here. And how should I respond to idiocy like putting a 1d4chan definition over a wiki definition. Stuff like that largely strikes my as flamebaiting, if anything, rather than trying to initiate a reasoned discussion. And while I may have ignored some of your points, you have not actually addressed to a single one of the arguments i made other than saying there's a professor who disagrees and thus my arguments are false by default.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Atma01 wrote:
Sorry, I think my new favorite part was where you corrected his spelling of Stephenie Meyer. Because that speaks volumes to me.
Because I like to get facts straight, unlike others who take their opinion of 1d4chan? As I said, I do alot of writing and editing for a living; especially in a branch of literature such as 40K that works around fantasy and science fiction aimed in no small parts at a teenage and early twen audience. Forgive me for knowing the name of one of the most successful authors in this broad sector of the last few years. And yes, I have even read sections of here (admittedly horrible) books. Which is why I recognize the same literary style and characters in Kelly's work.
I'm sorry but forgiveness in that matter can only be found in death. And even then I would not be your ultimate judge.
And oh sorry you couldn't be bothered addressing my other points? I thought I voiced them publicly like your post said I should. I thought I was just holding you to the same standard that you are holding me. My bad.
Would you like me to dredge them up again so we can start this tango all over? Because I just had some time free up and I retract my statement that I was walking away.
Would you like me to dredge them up again so we can start this tango all over? Because I just had some time free up and I retract my statement that I was walking away.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh, sorry Atma. He found a spelling mistake in my post. That automatically invalidates everything I've said.
Can't continue now. I spelt something wrong...
Uh, sorry. I made a question to clarify an unclear spelling. Harping on about it means you can ignore everything written afterwards and pretend that no actual points were voiced against what you have said.
Can't continue now. I actually made an effort to make sure I got your point correctly before providing counter-arguments.
Zweischneid wrote:And Kelly also brings you the Wolf-team by turning a Chapter none previously for wolf-iconography into literally wolf-raised, wolf-born, wolfriding, wolf-claw wielding man-wolves.
I have a saying - "Pointing out the bad behaviour of others in no way invalidates your own bad behaviour".
Yeah, the constant Wolf-ness of the Space Wolves was bumped up a few notches with their most recent release, and reached critical mass with the hilariously bad concept that is the Thunderwolf Cavalry (and their poster child, Wolfy McWolferson, riding his wolf, wielding Wolf-claws). It's stupid - I don't disagree at all. But that bit of stupidity in no way excuses the constantly 'Blood' things in the Blood Angel codex, the silly over the top fluff the BA characters got, and all the crap that destroyed the very soul of the Grey Knights.
See Dark Eldar I can buy doing all the gak they do because they are so amazingly advanced that their technology is akin to magic (ie. so beyond us that we cannot understand the concepts behind us, therefore from our perception what happens doesn't seem possible, therefore it must be magical, even though it isn't). Draigo on the other hand breaks one's sense of common sense. Even putting aside him going from God to God bitchslapping their holdings and leaving everything of theirs in ruin, his one defining feature that sets him aside from 'bad ass' and puts him firm into Mary Sue territory is his beatdown of Mortarion. It took a company of Grey Knights to banish Angron, and 3 of them walked away from that. Now Draigo gets to Morty, and just writes "Draigo wuz here!" and walks away. It trips too many "No, that's stupid" alarms.
Then you through in the incorruptible Grey Knights who are totally pure except for when the plot demands they not be pure (at which point they kill sisters), how they kill everyone who ever sees them, how they wield Daemon Weapons, how they can now lead units - units - of Daemonhosts (gaking all over the great work Abnett did with Eisenhorn and what Daemonhosts represent within the fluff... seriously - fething UNITS of Daemonhosts!!!). And endless more nonsense.
Ward's fluff stuff is internally inconsistent, and as I said at the start of this thread, reads like bad author-self-insertion fan-fiction put together like a breathless 12-year-old who things Grey Knights are so cool so they can do everything. When I was six I wrote a story about robots (specifically a piece of fan-fiction based around the obscure French cartoon series Robostory - look it up!). Every sentence started with "And then...". It was terrible. Read Draigo's fluff and put "And then" at the start of every paragraph. Tell me if you notice something.
I have a saying - "Pointing out the bad behaviour of others in no way invalidates your own bad behaviour"..
Not saying that. But if Ward is singled out specifically for "hatred" over and above Kelly or Cruddace or McNeill or Chambers or Priestly or whomever, it must be because he did things those authors did not. If his failings are comparable to the failings of other authors, the exceptional antipathy directed at Ward would be irrational.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the constant Wolf-ness of the Space Wolves was bumped up a few notches with their most recent release, and reached critical mass with the hilariously bad concept that is the Thunderwolf Cavalry (and their poster child, Wolfy McWolferson, riding his wolf, wielding Wolf-claws). It's stupid - I don't disagree at all. But that bit of stupidity in no way excuses the constantly 'Blood' things in the Blood Angel codex, the silly over the top fluff the BA characters got, and all the crap that destroyed the very soul of the Grey Knights.
Nobody destroyed the soul of the Grey Knights. They were an obscure niche-army dragged down by some of the most pretentious (and highly Mary-Sue I might add) fluff ever written for 40K. They've been re-imagined with, not least, direct reference to the recent Horus Heresy writings and a consistent theme.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
See Dark Eldar I can buy doing all the gak they do because they are so amazingly advanced that their technology is akin to magic (ie. so beyond us that we cannot understand the concepts behind us, therefore from our perception what happens doesn't seem possible, therefore it must be magical, even though it isn't). Draigo on the other hand breaks one's sense of common sense. Even putting aside him going from God to God bitchslapping their holdings and leaving everything of theirs in ruin, his one defining feature that sets him aside from 'bad ass' and puts him firm into Mary Sue territory is his beatdown of Mortarion. It took a company of Grey Knights to banish Angron, and 3 of them walked away from that. Now Draigo gets to Morty, and just writes "Draigo wuz here!" and walks away. It trips too many "No, that's stupid" alarms.
That is not logical. The Warp is an entirely fictional creation. What goes and what goes not in the Warp is defined by the authors that write it. It cannot break common sense. It could, at best, break internal consistency. Same for the power of Gods and Primarchs. However, gods in 40K were always mortal (e.g. C'Tan). And if a random Ork can nearly kill the combined might of the Emperor at his prime and his first Primarch Horus, than a legendary Chapter Master putting a beat on a Primarch is not at odds with older fluff. In comparison, it is fairly clear what a super-massive Black Hole does. If Kelly willfully ignores basic physical laws, it does break common sense and suspension of disbelief.
Ward's fluff stuff is internally inconsistent, and as I said at the start of this thread, reads like bad author-self-insertion fan-fiction put together like a breathless 12-year-old who things Grey Knights are so cool so they can do everything. When I was six I wrote a story about robots (specifically a piece of fan-fiction based around the obscure French cartoon series Robostory - look it up!). Every sentence started with "And then...". It was terrible. Read Draigo's fluff and put "And then" at the start of every paragraph. Tell me if you notice something.
Nothing I don't equally notice reading stuff from Kelly or Chambers or whomever you might want to name. Again, I refer you to the horribly pretentious wish-fullfilment of Vect, still mad after many hundreds of years for being "underestimated" in his youth. Talk about someone holding a typical "12-year-old" grudge.
I grabbed all my previous posts and dumped them into a word document, then extrapolated the points I raised earlier sans any jokes or what not. And this is what I have, rewrote some of it since the context is all out of place. Sorry if it breaks down but I tried to tie it together into some semblance of a post when it was like 8 posts across various things.
===
I am sure that Mr.Ward is a decent enough bloke IRL. Let’s not confuse his profession with his personality. Fair is fair and everyone gets excited at what they love. So hate his contributions if you must, but lets not hate the man. Much like C.S. Goto seems like a decent sort (especially since he acknowledged he doesn't really know enough to write properly for 40K), I hate his writing but wouldn't mind sharing a drink with the guy.
As to my biggest issue with Ward is his abuse of the old established and loved fluff, and his inability to think his actions through when it comes to what he says. One can argue that fluff tastes are subjective and that is a fair call. I deplore the GK codex, but I know those who swear by it. And then there is the whole Spiritual Liege thing that was literally pissing in the eye of many many many many many many fans by stating Ultramarines > X Chapter. This is partially a sign of GW's lack of quality control for WD as well. Since anyone who even has the slightest understanding of human nature would instantly see the waves that would make.
I can't really argue rules since I don't play anymore. And my understanding is that despite some terrible wording he does have some fun ideas and is bringing back some fun things like Jokero, so I do appreciate that aspect of him. But he seems very fanboy-ish in his approach to his job. So really I think if he just had a minder then things would be ok.
In regards to the BA/Necron thing. I don't have an issue with the fact they ended up in a temporary alliance of necessity, especially given the NewCron fluff and the emphasis on the Lord's personality. And given the Blood Angels have the 'He who sheds blood with me shall be my brother' thing as a very big cornerstone of their honor, once again not so much of an issue that they don't like turning on those they fought alongside.
My issue is with the crappy wording of the whole bit of fluff, and that they don't address the fact they were dealing with xenos. Literally a few lines here or there about this internal honor conflict arising before since it was with xenos would smooth a bunch of stuff out. Or have them want to fight them, but their honor code demands otherwise, and without honor they are no better than the xenos, etc etc. Rather than this stupid up in the air middle ground.
But ultimately the timing of the fluff was horrible since the NewCron fluff didn't exist then and they should have been the unflinching machines of death they were before back then. The Lords did have personality back then still, but they were far more concerned with their lawn and property than dicking around with humans back then.
As for the SOB murder-thon, there was no need for it, and it is stupid, and fetish fuel. I can see the twisted logic behind it, but it is just stupid and should not be there. And rustles my jimmies almost as much as them using Daemon Weapons now.
It also annoys me greatly that some of his changes to their army structure like giving them battlefield Apothecaries again aren't even original. I'm surprised we didn't find some copy paste errors straight out of their Realms of Chaos entry.
Basically I just miss the days of the 2nd Ed Dark Millennium fluff when they were really special, and the days of the 3rd Ed fluff which was more or less a logical and fleshed out extension of the 2nd Ed fluff. Before they became just super special Vanilla Marine Army List that is good at killing Daemons. And much of what is there is simply pissing on the memory of that old fluff. Like how much it cost them and the Space Wolves to banish Angron during the first war for Armageddon. Now its just call in Draigo and everyone can sit back and relax with a nice warm glass of Sororitas blood and watch a show.
OP, one of the simplest things I can point out is that by your own admission your are new. And because of this you don't have the same accumulated amount of experience, knowledge and love of this hobby fluff/rules that were directly pissed on by his works. Much of what we talk about is subjective, but without hopping into a way back machine and investing over a decade of love into the Grey Knights and their established fluff you will not be able to truly fathom the sheer disgust I have for his GK fluff and his treatment of it.
Nor could I easily say that without the years of customer service experience could you see the same easily avoidable problems that should never have come to pass if he simply thought out what he said, or had someone with some sense like that looking over his shoulder.
People can write horrible fanfictions full of mary-sues until the cows come home. But since their works aren't going into print for the masses or carry any official weight as a developer none of that is relevant to this discussion. Mr. Ward is and does, and needs to carry himself as such a professional level demands or he validly opens himself up for criticism from the fans he says that he supposedly writes for.
I'm not trying to convince everyone to hate him, I am simply giving my stance as to why I refuse to purchase or even acknowledge any of his works until I see a change in his mentality and level of writing ability. As it stands in my mind they should just hire a 12 year old and pay them under the table, as that is the quality I believe we are getting and I am sure said 12 year old would not command anywhere near the same salary as Mr.Ward.
And like I pointed out before I hate his job and how he goes about it, but I am sure that he is a decent bloke IRL and wouldn't mind sharing a drink with him. Even if only so we can get really plastered and I can give a "Dude. C'mon. Seriously?" speech to him and hope for change.
I believe that when Chapter's Due was written and finally gave the Ultramarines some humble pie which everyone loved, Mr.Ward specifically set about changing some fluff so that the Daemon Prince in said novel could not have been on Macragge at the time just to invalidate the novel since it was his most favorite bestest ever Chapter that could do no wrong eating said pie? Because I remember that being the case, and highlights yet another issue I have with him.
Though I did hear this 2nd hand so if I am wrong so be it and happy to be corrected, but if true it is exhibit A of the case for him being nothing more than a butthurt fanboy.
And to also illustrate just how alienated he is, no one really talks about Goto anymore. He was overshadowed by Ward. Mat Ward is the Stephenie Meyer of 40KIMO.
In previous fluff they never liked the fact that they had to kill loyal servants of the Imperium just for knowing of their existence. Let alone consider murdering Sororitas in cold blood just to get their blood for a ritual of all things. Nor would they even consider touching a daemon weapon let alone wielding one in battle. Now its slaughter this and bath in that, and daemon weapons for EVERYONE pretty much. Almost a complete 180 on their fluff. Not to mention they were always struggling to fight the daemons and none were a push over, they were just simply the best at it given their incorruptible nature and all the various wards like the Aegis they had. Now they walk all over daemons like they were swatting flies. 3rd Ed Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.
===
Now that that monster is out of the way. May I politely as what it is that you write that is GW-Licensed? I don't recognise your tag as being anything on a FFG product that I have seen, though admittedly I don't have them all so I could just be missing it. But I would like to know what it is that you pen as seeing your work could help give me some context into why you defend Mr.Ward so vehemently. And can I confirm that that is indeed a UK flag on your profile?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will point out HBMC, that they always did kill anyone who knew about them with the exception of Marines who just got mind wiped. That was a fairly big deal during the first war for Armageddon since their leader was the only one to retain the memories of what they accomplished and it irked him his Brothers were cheated out of their memories of glory and sacrifice.
And do we REALLY want to drag RT era fluff into this? Because I can grab it from my closet right now. But I would point out that game wasn't supposed to be the serious GRIMDARK all serious all the time game that 40K is now. And the Emperor didn't have the same power level he does now as back then as is my understanding. Hence being knocked out and on his ass by an Ork Warboss on Ullanor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Given that my post was XBox huge and you would need some time to address it properly I'll call it a night for me and check back tomorrow so we can pick this up again if we need to. Night y'all.
Atma01 wrote:
I am sure that Mr.Ward is a decent enough bloke IRL. Let’s not confuse his profession with his personality. Fair is fair and everyone gets excited at what they love. So hate his contributions if you must, but lets not hate the man. Much like C.S. Goto seems like a decent sort (especially since he acknowledged he doesn't really know enough to write properly for 40K), I hate his writing but wouldn't mind sharing a drink with the guy.
Fair enough. I think we can assume that “hating” Ward or Kelly or Priestly or whomever means “hating” their products for 40K; not them personally for the purposes of this discussion.
Atma01 wrote:
As to my biggest issue with Ward is his abuse of the old established and loved fluff, and his inability to think his actions through when it comes to what he says. One can argue that fluff tastes are subjective and that is a fair call. I deplore the GK codex, but I know those who swear by it. And then there is the whole Spiritual Liege thing that was literally pissing in the eye of many many many many many many fans by stating Ultramarines > X Chapter. This is partially a sign of GW's lack of quality control for WD as well. Since anyone who even has the slightest understanding of human nature would instantly see the waves that would make.
As noted, the idea of all Codex Chapters aspiring to be Ultramarines is in the 4th Edition Codex. It’s not something that was created by Ward. Infact, Ward took it out of the Codex when he toned down the UM-focus to historically unprecedented levels and only mentions it in an interview. Ergo, if you deplore Ward for the “spiritual liege” thing, you would logically hate, even more than Ward, McNeill, Haines, the authors of the Index Astartes, etc.. . who all placed even greater emphasis on this aspect of the Ultramarines.
Atma01 wrote:
I can't really argue rules since I don't play anymore. And my understanding is that despite some terrible wording he does have some fun ideas and is bringing back some fun things like Jokero, so I do appreciate that aspect of him. But he seems very fanboy-ish in his approach to his job. So really I think if he just had a minder then things would be ok.
Again, similar points have been made, among others, about Cruddace and IG who made a very open claim that he considers himself a “treadhead” and loves tanks and things IG are the bestest army ever. Or Kelly, who went to fanboy-central to get wolf-riding wolves and the like. My problem is that I fail to see how this is unique to Mat Ward.
Atma01 wrote:
In regards to the BA/Necron thing. I don't have an issue with the fact they ended up in a temporary alliance of necessity, especially given the NewCron fluff and the emphasis on the Lord's personality. And given the Blood Angels have the 'He who sheds blood with me shall be my brother' thing as a very big cornerstone of their honor, once again not so much of an issue that they don't like turning on those they fought alongside.
My issue is with the crappy wording of the whole bit of fluff, and that they don't address the fact they were dealing with xenos. Literally a few lines here or there about this internal honor conflict arising before since it was with xenos would smooth a bunch of stuff out. Or have them want to fight them, but their honor code demands otherwise, and without honor they are no better than the xenos, etc etc. Rather than this stupid up in the air middle ground.
But ultimately the timing of the fluff was horrible since the NewCron fluff didn't exist then and they should have been the unflinching machines of death they were before back then. The Lords did have personality back then still, but they were far more concerned with their lawn and property than dicking around with humans back then.
Still, nothing more odd than Space Wolves inviting an entire Eldar Delegation to their hall for a big beer-bash, Striking Scorpions “respectfully” carrying fallen Space Wolves and having a big, joint party. Timing? Well, it can be debated. I liked the “foreshadowing” of new Necron fluff, which also was already present in FoD. But I can agree that it might have been unfortunate.
Atma01 wrote:
As for the SOB murder-thon, there was no need for it, and it is stupid, and fetish fuel. I can see the twisted logic behind it, but it is just stupid and should not be there. And rustles my jimmies almost as much as them using Daemon Weapons now.
Space Wolves attack Sister without warning in the Space Wolves codex, p. 19. Nothing unique to Ward.
Atma01 wrote:
It also annoys me greatly that some of his changes to their army structure like giving them battlefield Apothecaries again aren't even original. I'm surprised we didn't find some copy paste errors straight out of their Realms of Chaos entry.
So you hate him for not everything being 100% original. For actually using recognized Space Marine units like Apothecaries for a Space Marine chapter? How about the “originality” of Kelly of including Harlys in the Dark Eldar. Again, doesn’t strike me as something unique to Ward.
Atma01 wrote:
Basically I just miss the days of the 2nd Ed Dark Millennium fluff when they were really special, and the days of the 3rd Ed fluff which was more or less a logical and fleshed out extension of the 2nd Ed fluff. Before they became just super special Vanilla Marine Army List that is good at killing Daemons. And much of what is there is simply pissing on the memory of that old fluff. Like how much it cost them and the Space Wolves to banish Angron during the first war for Armageddon. Now its just call in Draigo and everyone can sit back and relax with a nice warm glass of Sororitas blood and watch a show.
Hyperbole. Nothing in the new Codex contradicts the Angron episode (which was a picture-book example of villains’ Mary Sue gone wild btw). Again, fights in the Warp are not the same. The Warp holds no "physical" forms, either of Primarchs or of others. And unlike the Angron fight, nothing is ever at stake for Draigo. He saves nobody and noone. He fights for nothing. The Angron-fight in contrast was a fight "with big stakes". They are polar opposites of one another.
That said, the overblown Angron episode contradicts the Index Astartes fluff where Emperor and Horus together nearly fall to an Ork, or Horus falls to an unnamed guardsman (and the Emperor had to defend his unconscious body), so it is itself a bit on the wrong side of internal consistency. Me, I like my 40K lethal and grimdark, not filled with unbeatable beings that make ever outcome predetermined. In either case, the Angron-fluff seems to be a good example of some author “taking it a bit too far” in a similar vein of the criticism levelled at Ward for Draigo.
Also, Maugan Ra walking the Eye of Terror solo. Maugan Ra defending an entire Planet from Nids solo. Jumping a Bike through the Cockpit of a Warhound Titan to take it out. Stuff like this is all over “the old edition” of 40K too.
Atma01 wrote:
OP, one of the simplest things I can point out is that by your own admission your are new. And because of this you don't have the same accumulated amount of experience, knowledge and love of this hobby fluff/rules that were directly pissed on by his works. Much of what we talk about is subjective, but without hopping into a way back machine and investing over a decade of love into the Grey Knights and their established fluff you will not be able to truly fathom the sheer disgust I have for his GK fluff and his treatment of it.
Not sure how you want me to respond. I hated the old Daemonhunter fluff. I guess there is alot of subjectivity. Either way, I think it is fair to say that his changes to Grey Knights are not any more fundamental to, say, Cruddace changes to the Hive War fluff for Nids (introducing the entirely new character of Swarmlord into a well-established battle, changing the entire dynamics of the Macragge battle in ways that fully contradict the old fluff) or Kelly’s changes to the Wolves (TWC, enough said).
I fail to see what is “unique” about Ward in those criticisms.
Atma01 wrote:
Nor could I easily say that without the years of customer service experience could you see the same easily avoidable problems that should never have come to pass if he simply thought out what he said, or had someone with some sense like that looking over his shoulder.
People can write horrible fanfictions full of mary-sues until the cows come home. But since their works aren't going into print for the masses or carry any official weight as a developer none of that is relevant to this discussion. Mr. Ward is and does, and needs to carry himself as such a professional level demands or he validly opens himself up for criticism from the fans he says that he supposedly writes for.
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.
Atma01 wrote:
I'm not trying to convince everyone to hate him, I am simply giving my stance as to why I refuse to purchase or even acknowledge any of his works until I see a change in his mentality and level of writing ability. As it stands in my mind they should just hire a 12 year old and pay them under the table, as that is the quality I believe we are getting and I am sure said 12 year old would not command anywhere near the same salary as Mr.Ward.
As noted above, all the points you think make Mr. Ward the equivalent to a 12-year old can equally be applied to all other existing authors (and past authors as well I would imagine).
Atma01 wrote:
And like I pointed out before I hate his job and how he goes about it, but I am sure that he is a decent bloke IRL and wouldn't mind sharing a drink with him. Even if only so we can get really plastered and I can give a "Dude. C'mon. Seriously?" speech to him and hope for change.
I believe that when Chapter's Due was written and finally gave the Ultramarines some humble pie which everyone loved, Mr.Ward specifically set about changing some fluff so that the Daemon Prince in said novel could not have been on Macragge at the time just to invalidate the novel since it was his most favorite bestest ever Chapter that could do no wrong eating said pie? Because I remember that being the case, and highlights yet another issue I have with him.
Though I did hear this 2nd hand so if I am wrong so be it and happy to be corrected, but if true it is exhibit A of the case for him being nothing more than a butthurt fanboy.
Atma01 wrote:
And to also illustrate just how alienated he is, no one really talks about Goto anymore. He was overshadowed by Ward. Mat Ward is the Stephenie Meyer of 40KIMO.
Stephanie Meyer’s fiction is known mainly for introvert, brooding characters whose internal monologues lambast endlessly on real or perceived injustices, along with tedious descriptions of pale-white skin, hair-locks in faces, brooding postures before sun-set, etc.. This can be found in particular in Kelly’s work, but also in some of the old Daemonhunter books. It’s the literary opposite of Ward where everything is in constant kinetic action with little time spent on descriptive text and none at all on internal though-monologues. Stylistically, this statement is simply wrong. Meyer's style of writing and the tropes she uses are not used by Mat Ward. Kelly is the "closest" to her style as can be evidenced by the paragraph of (static) decriptive text on Vect interwoven with expositionary factuals (e.g. he build his empire on his enemies underestimation of him), something you will not find in a Ward book.
Atma01 wrote:
In previous fluff they never liked the fact that they had to kill loyal servants of the Imperium just for knowing of their existence. Let alone consider murdering Sororitas in cold blood just to get their blood for a ritual of all things. Nor would they even consider touching a daemon weapon let alone wielding one in battle. Now its slaughter this and bath in that, and daemon weapons for EVERYONE pretty much. Almost a complete 180 on their fluff. Not to mention they were always struggling to fight the daemons and none were a push over, they were just simply the best at it given their incorruptible nature and all the various wards like the Aegis they had. Now they walk all over daemons like they were swatting flies. 3rd Ed Stern was a perfect example of the golden era of GK fluff IMO, he was a badass but still got messed with by Mcklatchen, and was constantly fighting an uphill battle against his own fate that Tzeentch was weaving. Now Draigo can just hop on over to Tzeentch's place, smack him in the back of the head and tell him to knock the crap off or else he will really have to hurt him.
Again, Space Wolves do it in 5th with no second thought. Seems a broader design choice that goes way beyond Ward. That said, I like it. Everyone vs. Everyone (and potentially allied with everyone) makes for a far “darker” more “grimdark” setting compared to older editions IMO.
Atma01 wrote:
Now that that monster is out of the way. May I politely as what it is that you write that is GW-Licensed? I don't recognise your tag as being anything on a FFG product that I have seen, though admittedly I don't have them all so I could just be missing it. But I would like to know what it is that you pen as seeing your work could help give me some context into why you defend Mr.Ward so vehemently. And can I confirm that that is indeed a UK flag on your profile?
I work as freelance editor (including for “in-universe” consistency) and as translator for Black Library. I do not write original fiction for GW licence products, but I have done so in other places. I never worked with FFG (yet).
Ultimately, my problem remains that I see positions such as yours as itself inconsistent. Individually, those points are subjective. You like them or you don't like them. The problem comes, if they are applied selectively to Mat Ward, while any and all other 40K authors are equally "guilty" of the very same things. This is where I fail to see how a reading of other books, with the same "subjectives" tastes, creates such highly divergent opinions, if it weren't for some form of prejudgement that sees "failures" by Ward as always symptomatic and proof for his shortcomings, but constantly excuses the very same things in the books of other authors as "unfortunate exception".
That is that paragraph, in other words: "Yet if the Chaos Gods could not banish/destroy/kill Draigo, then nor coudl Draigo win by any meaningful victory."
Witch means that Draigo can't defeat them but they also cannot kill him for some reason.
Witch means that Draigo is something Chaos Gods cannot kill - that is Matt Ward logic of a perfect Grey Knight.
Or it's literary code for "It could happen, but it might not"
Why would they want to get rid of him? He's a hoot, he gives the bloodletters something to train on, the great unclean ones a new garden to test plagues within, and Tzeentch makes his labyrinth of utter incomprehensibility even larger and grander.
He's like the perfect test subject, forever taunted and forever forced to fight, but being unable to do a thing, he's so useless at the moment that the chaos gods have bar bets over what he's gonna try next that will fail.
I have a saying - "Pointing out the bad behaviour of others in no way invalidates your own bad behaviour"..
Not saying that. But if Ward is singled out specifically for "hatred" over and above Kelly or Cruddace or McNeill or Chambers or Priestly or whomever, it must be because he did things those authors did not. If his failings are comparable to the failings of other authors, the exceptional antipathy directed at Ward would be irrational.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah, the constant Wolf-ness of the Space Wolves was bumped up a few notches with their most recent release, and reached critical mass with the hilariously bad concept that is the Thunderwolf Cavalry (and their poster child, Wolfy McWolferson, riding his wolf, wielding Wolf-claws). It's stupid - I don't disagree at all. But that bit of stupidity in no way excuses the constantly 'Blood' things in the Blood Angel codex, the silly over the top fluff the BA characters got, and all the crap that destroyed the very soul of the Grey Knights.
Nobody destroyed the soul of the Grey Knights. They were an obscure niche-army dragged down by some of the most pretentious (and highly Mary-Sue I might add) fluff ever written for 40K. They've been re-imagined with, not least, direct reference to the recent Horus Heresy writings and a consistent theme.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
See Dark Eldar I can buy doing all the gak they do because they are so amazingly advanced that their technology is akin to magic (ie. so beyond us that we cannot understand the concepts behind us, therefore from our perception what happens doesn't seem possible, therefore it must be magical, even though it isn't). Draigo on the other hand breaks one's sense of common sense. Even putting aside him going from God to God bitchslapping their holdings and leaving everything of theirs in ruin, his one defining feature that sets him aside from 'bad ass' and puts him firm into Mary Sue territory is his beatdown of Mortarion. It took a company of Grey Knights to banish Angron, and 3 of them walked away from that. Now Draigo gets to Morty, and just writes "Draigo wuz here!" and walks away. It trips too many "No, that's stupid" alarms.
That is not logical. The Warp is an entirely fictional creation. What goes and what goes not in the Warp is defined by the authors that write it. It cannot break common sense. It could, at best, break internal consistency. Same for the power of Gods and Primarchs. However, gods in 40K were always mortal (e.g. C'Tan). And if a random Ork can nearly kill the combined might of the Emperor at his prime and his first Primarch Horus, than a legendary Chapter Master putting a beat on a Primarch is not at odds with older fluff. In comparison, it is fairly clear what a super-massive Black Hole does. If Kelly willfully ignores basic physical laws, it does break common sense and suspension of disbelief.
Ward's fluff stuff is internally inconsistent, and as I said at the start of this thread, reads like bad author-self-insertion fan-fiction put together like a breathless 12-year-old who things Grey Knights are so cool so they can do everything. When I was six I wrote a story about robots (specifically a piece of fan-fiction based around the obscure French cartoon series Robostory - look it up!). Every sentence started with "And then...". It was terrible. Read Draigo's fluff and put "And then" at the start of every paragraph. Tell me if you notice something.
Nothing I don't equally notice reading stuff from Kelly or Chambers or whomever you might want to name. Again, I refer you to the horribly pretentious wish-fullfilment of Vect, still mad after many hundreds of years for being "underestimated" in his youth. Talk about someone holding a typical "12-year-old" grudge.
My reaction to all your posts in this thread: Your argument seems to go around that people who go on 4chan are idiots and people who disagree with you are idiots. I think you need to adjust your attitude.
i like how my blanket statement that I expected to be ignored got replied to twice (and dragged up pages later.)but the carefully well thought points get ignored.the internetz is truly a cruel master.
Nom
EDIT: from what has been said I get the impression that certain people think 1d4chan is full of idiots. Remeber 4chans begginings anyone?
nomsheep wrote:i like how my blanket statement that I expected to be ignored got replied to twice (and dragged up pages later.)but the carefully well thought points get ignored.the internetz is truly a cruel master.
Nom
EDIT: from what has been said I get the impression that certain people think 1d4chan is full of idiots. Remeber 4chans begginings anyone?
A bunch of hackers?
Hackers aren't known for stupidity.
Nom
4chan wasn't started by "Crackers" (No, they are not, and are still not hackers! Completely different from what they do now!)
It was just started by moot to be an imageboard that got out of hand.
Zweischneid wrote:
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.
Zweischneid wrote:
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.
Did you just say Ghazghkull Thraka is a Mary Sue?
Sure. Wanna use the 1d4chan test I so ruefully neglected?
How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue? 1. Does she start the story at the pinnacle of achievement?
- Ok.. first sentence: "Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka is a mighty prophet of the Waaagh!, capable of rousing entire planetary populations of Orks into a frenz of conquest". Check!
2. Is there any way for the character to grow or improve during the story?
- "wherever Ghazghkull went he united warring tribes with an overwhelming sense of destiny. [...] a Waagh! bigger than any seen before or since,." Check!
3. Is it a fan character that is better than the canon characters?
- "He is the single most influential Ork in the galaxy." Ahh.. Kelly's expositionary, descriptive fan-spank at its best. Check!
4. Do all the canon characters suddenly start talking about a fan character, with their presence in the story largely relegated to providing opportunities for the new character to show how pure, powerful, good-hearted, etc they are?
- Ok, time to check out the non-Ghaz characters. Let's just randomly flip a page to the next one: "Ghazghkulls's rise to Grand Warlord took less than a week. Suddenly extremely popular, Grotsnik looked at a mob of Orks waiting outside his tent." Check!
5. Are they someone's self-proclaimed fursona? (If so, stop reading this list and burn them for heresy).
- Well, he's not a pirate I guess, so it doesn't hold for Kelly himself. But no, "they would follow Ghazgkull or they would die" stuff does sound like greenskin furry-ism power-fantasy wish-fullfillment quite alot. So Check!
6. Does she ever make bad decisions? That don't end up being surprise correct choices later?
- Like getting shot only to find "the gods". Clearly! Check!
7. Do you use absolutes like "always," "everybody," or "never" when describing her abilities?
- "all Orks followed him to a man" (what kind of analogy is that anyways?), "the single most influential Ork". Check, check, check, check!!!!!
8. Do they feature an entirely contrived "weakness" that doesn't affect them any time it would harm them (such as being clumsy unless they are required to perform a great feat of athleticism) or isn't really a weakness (such as being too kind or righteous "for their own good") which was clearly added soley so the author could point to it when accused of writing a Sue?
- Like a metal skull that makes him only tougher, harder, more visionary. Most defenitly check!
9- Do you find that, rather than figuring out how the characters can work together to solve a problem, your primary concern as a writer is usually explaining why this one character can't do it on their own?
- Is that even a question? Check!
Zweischneid wrote:
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.
Did you just say Ghazghkull Thraka is a Mary Sue?
Sure. Wanna use the 1d4chan test I so ruefully neglected?
How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue?
10. Did Phil Kelly write this character?
- Check!
A clear 10/10 perfect Mary Sue.
Actually, question 10 is " Did Matt Ward write this character", you've twisted the test and answer to fit your own bias, kinda hard to take the rest of your arguments seriously
1d4 chan has a good explanation of why there is hate for matt ward.
I actually don't mind the GK to much (i haven't played BA) but they do have allot of random little remember this ability stuff like to -1 from enemy leadership when targeting with psychic powers, a bit random and not so important.
I think the big hate comes from fluff, fluff that states they killed a bunch of sisters and covered themselves in blood to become more resistant to a demons corruption.
fluff that makes little sense and makes other armies look bad.
Actually, question 10 is " Did Matt Ward write this character", you've twisted the test and answer to fit your own bias, kinda hard to take the rest of your arguments seriously
This. ^^^^^
Your opinion suddenly means nothing.
1d4chan used to play a game called spot matt ward.
Basically go onto a forum, find a hate ward thread(not a hard task) and see which poster defends him vehemently whilst ignoring other posters and twisting arguments and facts to support him whilst just RAAAAAAGGGING at other posters.
Zweischneid wrote:
We’ve had the Mary-sue discussion. Characters like Vect or Maugan Ra or Ghaz or perhaps that IG guy who breaks Ravenor necks with his bare hands all fit the bill just as much.
Did you just say Ghazghkull Thraka is a Mary Sue?
Given that Ghazghkull was written, back when he was created, as the loser of the Second Armageddon War, one would think not.
Well clearly some posters have beaten me to the punch on some of this. So I won’t bother doing a quote response and instead attempt to compile something more coherent and concise.
Let me start with, not only is your willful ignorance showing, but also your personal bias. If you genuinely believe your own statements then that is a pity and a concern, and if you are a troll then well played and I tip my hat to you. But that would be for posters more active than myself to properly determine and I will just attempt to address this like you are simply uninformed.
You seem to miss the point of the whole ‘Spiritual Liege’ thing. Like entirely. At no point was the contention that the Ultramarines were always the paragons of the Codex Astartes and always held others to their standards. We have always known this, and for the longest time THAT was their defining trait until they got some lore around the Nid invasion of Macragge. Then they became Codex paragons and Nid experts. And some stuff around free thinking and the Codex rules and what not which has become a new theme and one we all welcomed. In the words of Captain Titus ‘Do try to keep up’.
The issue with the Spiritual Liege comment was that in nary a few lines Ward managed to chop down any sort of uniqueness for Codex followers by reducing them to Ultramarine wannabes, and that those who didn’t were ‘fringe exceptions’. Not exactly the most positive thing to say about them. Anyone with more than 2 brain cells should have foreseen the storm that interview or even just that statement alone would brew. It wasn’t even dressed up as an opinion either, but a statement of fact from the Codex writer himself.
It would be like saying that all Eldar regardless of Craftworld kowtow to Eldrad as their only hope of survival for the future (well before he got himself dead at least). Hope there wasn’t any establish fluff of infighting or that Eldar have an arrogant nature that would be trampled on in saying something like that. Do you see what I am getting at here? He more or less said ‘Your fluff is wrong and here is how it is in black and white, YOU WANT TO BE AN ULTRAMARINE. Unless you are one of “Those” people of course.’. Great an dandy if you are an Ultramarine fan since you now have written proof to shut down fluff arguments with, but a little like an Ork in the ass for anyone who wasn’t.
I don’t even need to touch his lines before that part. But I will put them here verbatim;
“Yes, that was one of the other principals I wanted to get across. The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really!”
I think that that speaks its own volumes. And you can see why I keep using the word ‘bestest’ in my posts. The whole interview was unnecessarily divisive to the fanbase, and could easily have been avoided with a few simple twists of customer service speak. But alas the ball was dropped, and dropped hard. And here we are, having to point this out yet again.
You seem to keep bringing up ‘examples’ of people in the past who have had what you believe to be a similar mentality in the past. The problem with this is that you examples are poorly chosen. At no time did any of them flat out make stupid absolute statements about the thing they were writing about that would divide the fanbase so much. “I love tanks and wanted to make them awesome”, is not the same statement as “Tanks are undoubtedly the best weapon ever. Yes, really!”. Rules aside since we will always argue over effective rule writing, this is solely about fluff. When you bring up the use of the Wolf stuff in the recent SW Codex the problem with this example is that we already do hate it for its terrible forced nature, but it doesn’t compare to what we are talking about with the GK Codex since it wasn’t a huge change up of their fluff. Just a stupid focus on one aspect of it to the detriment of others. To be a similar example they would have had to change the SWs to tea drinking diplomats who refuse to come to blows with fellow Imperials (since that would not be proper!) and hate wielding anything with a Wolf symbol on it.
As an aside you also don’t seem to know much about the history of the Space Wolves if you think them attacking Imperials is not already established fluff. They are known to come to blows or even provoke them with fellow Imperials due to their headstrong nature. They have at least one ship they retain in their defense fleet which the Imperium asked for back since it was originally a Navy ship they found, but the Wolves said ‘No come and get it’, and no one has since they know the Wolves will fight to keep it. It was also a fairly big deal around why they refused, and were never forced into, compliance with the Codex. Once again you choose a poor example since to correlate to your argument they would have to be doing something that they weren’t before. And they aren’t. I even believe that the SWs and the SOBs have an actual history of animosity that is drawn on given their view of the Emperor and how it conflicts with established Imperial dogma. But that is for more Wolfier Brothers than I to debate as they are not my forte.
This segways nicely into the GK fluff. And its complete 180 with the latest Codex, and the reason why I hate it and by extension Ward for writing it. I have never seen established fluff abused so badly. It almost changed the very nature of the GKs themselves. Before the coming of Ward the GKs were literally the best the Imperium had to offer, and so few that they were only ever called in when the most priority of Daemonic or psychic targets were identified and cornered. E.g. Angron during the first war for Armageddon. Despite having all the best gear, a psyker power level equal to that a Librarian, training that makes an Ultramarine look like a pussy, and more anti-Daemonic wards than you can shake a stick at, they were always fighting an uphill battle against any Daemons they faced. Such was the terrible nature of the foe they faced. They were known to be incorruptible due to their wards and mental training, a keystone of which was taking no pride in what they did. To the point of chewing out other Astartes for doing so. The only thing that stopped them from being complete Mary-Sues was the fact that for every battle or victory they won, it was hollow. Too many losses for just a temporary victory, where they knew others would have to fight it again down the line.
It was also put forward that due to the clandestine nature of their task, and being one of the few truly decent weapons against the Daemonic, the secrecy of their existence was paramount. And any who had knowledge of them had to die, or have their mind wiped of the memory. They took no joy in this and lamented the fact, knowing that it was a necessary sacrifice for the ongoing battle. That was shown during the first war when they had the Space Wolves create a ruse to lure Angron, so they could teleport in and banish him. The cost to both the Wolves and the GKs was dear, but Angron was banished. And in the end all the Wolves save Grimnar (or whoever was in command, would have to look it up again) had their mind wiped. They only left his mind intact so he could carry the memory of the glory and honor for his Brothers that would never know. The origins of the GKs were also left shrouded in mystery so that the player’s could draw their own conclusions. All that was known was they were formed on order of the Emperor and turned up during a later founding. Were they the Librarians left over in stasis after Nikea? The loyalists left from the Traitor legions that got back to Terra? Some anomaly of the warp? Who knew. That was the mystery about them and played no major part in their character. They simply were, and went about their job. And unlike the usual ‘dark and mysterious past’ trope they weren’t hiding knowledge of the origin, they simply didn’t know or care. As there were Daemons to kill.
Fast forward to the new GK Codex. Much of what made the GKs who they were, or their defining traits, were simply discarded or twisted. They use Daemon Weapons now. They apparently can be corrupted, and by murdering Sororitas and bathing in their pure blood with a ritual can they be cleansed or protected. They had their origins defined (poorly in my opinion). They were given a character (Draigo) who has done some of the most hax level things to date in the continuity outside of a being that has ‘God’ in their title or is a ‘God’ in some form. The fluff for said character was written like a wishlist of accomplishments that some kid wrote for his super special snowflake Chapter of Marines. Gone is any ambiguity of their secret nature or origins, or special army structure given their tactical style. Now they are just metal colored Marines, who are all psykers, and must kill the Daemons. But no Draigo, you are the Daemons. And then Draigo was a mary-sue.
These were not small changes like adding a new unit to an army when it makes sense. Adding a Swarmlord to the Nid Horde isn’t the same as wielding a Daemon Weapon when the very thought of considering that in the past would get you investigated for corruption. Adding a Swarmlord is what I would call a logical extension. It’s adding, not changing. And adding in a manner that doesn’t change everything before its inclusion. So once again you choose poor examples.
My position is hardly inconsistent. And you seem to think that simply because I agree with 1d4Chan, or even possibly contributed to its content as I am unashamedly a fa/tg/uy, that it invalidates completely valid criticisms. You also seem to pick and choose what you point out to support your argument, and even then don’t seem to understand the terms or examples you use in them. It is you who hasn’t been able to form a consistent argument against why I dislike the above mentioned stuff.
And if you really do do editorial work for BL, and intend to try and write for FFG then good luck. Because you have here one poster who stated an English professor uses Draigo as an example of how not to write a Character, HBMC who is paid to write FFG fluff and rules (on top of doing editorial proofreading and such, not just your proofreading for consistency), and a legion of others who say Ward’s writing is terrible. On top of which you freely admit to reading Stephenie Meyer books and using them as some sort of basis of anything, whilst missing the point of her work being exactly like the GK Codex. She changed established lore for things. Vampires do not sparkle in the sunlight. And that pissed so many people off. And now that I think about it the Vampire cesarean is a little like Draigo writing on Mortarion’s heart, as it elicits the same WTF response from people.
This got more ad hominem that I would of liked, but seriously dude. Just stop already. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about and your fanboy is showing. Otherwise I would have to point out that we know 3 things about you. You have a UK flag on your avatar, said you ‘write’ for GW-Licensed stuff, and defend Mat Ward. So we can play the little game that /tg/ has and say;
“Go to bed Mat!”
Now if you want to seriously continue come back with an argument that doesn’t rely on your flawed interpretation of the term mary-sue, doesn’t casually disregard 1d4Chan’s thoughts on the matter, isn’t drawing on erroneous fluff information, and doesn’t read like NO U post.
Otherwise I will assume you are a troll, or just very stupid and headstrong. And I am walking away from this again and will not respond unless you can conform to the above.
Now to go play some Borderlands and Gears and take a break from all the words. Peace out homies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Draigo on the other hand breaks one's sense of common sense. Even putting aside him going from God to God bitchslapping their holdings and leaving everything of theirs in ruin, his one defining feature that sets him aside from 'bad ass' and puts him firm into Mary Sue territory is his beatdown of Mortarion. It took a company of Grey Knights to banish Angron, and 3 of them walked away from that. Now Draigo gets to Morty, and just writes "Draigo wuz here!" and walks away. It trips too many "No, that's stupid" alarms.
Ward doesn't mention how many GK were at the battle where Mortarion fell. Why would you assume there were less than when they battled Angron? It was a battle after all, it's not like Geronitan and Draigo were walking their dog and they spotted Mortarion and the deathshroud across the street.
And with regards the bloodtide unless you happen to be a chaos sorceror, you don't get an opinion on whether it was stupid or not for the GK to use Sororitas blood as part of a ward. It's perfectly within the realm of possibility that the bloodtide was something different. It obviously didn't obey the same rules for demonic posession or corruption as described elsewhere in the background, and so it's prefectly reasonable that the GK needed something extra to keep them safe.
Okay at this point, you people need to calm down. You've written a 2126 word paper over a universe of fluff that's so inconsistent and full of mary sue's that It's hard to take it so seriously.
The fact you all get up in tights over wards fluff is fun and all, but wow, the levels it has reached over a game...
Not to mention doing it entirely just to call someone out..
Okay at this point, you people need to calm down. You've written a 2126 word paper over a universe of fluff that's so inconsistent and full of mary sue's that It's hard to take it so seriously.
The fact you all get up in tights over wards fluff is fun and all, but wow, the levels it has reached over a game...
Well said. I asked a simple question and it has turned into a shouting match, along with name calling over what is really simply taste. 40k as far asI can tell, is built upon poor Ip control, Mary sue one upmen ship with the writers and no one giving a damn about consistency within the setting. Just chill guys, you are not going change each others taste.
Okay at this point, you people need to calm down. You've written a 2126 word paper over a universe of fluff that's so inconsistent and full of mary sue's that It's hard to take it so seriously.
The fact you all get up in tights over wards fluff is fun and all, but wow, the levels it has reached over a game...
Not to mention doing it entirely just to call someone out..
Well that isn't exactly a big thing to write for me. But I do understand that not everyone is used to writing that much so I can see how it looks long and therefore butthurt. And the thing is that he wanted to start this back and forth first using erroneous statements, and tried to call statements of mine out first while disregarding others. At the very least the OP might get some more info on why it provokes the hatred right?
REDACTED DUE TO DERP
If it wouldn't be such a violation of copyright I would be happy to scan their entries from Slaves to Darkness, Dark Millennium and the 3rd Ed Codex so we can see everything side by side. Don't have the latest one laying around for obvious reasons. But their entry went from regular Marines who had Inquisitorial support and were sent to fight Daemons, to individuals geared to be able to handle themselves against Daemons, to a small teams geared to be able to handle themselves against Daemons, to a whole army geared to be able to obliterate Daemons without trying. They always had sueish traits (with the exception of the Slaves entry), but never proper sues until Ward made Draigo and turned their NEMESIS factor up to 11.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Well said. I asked a simple question and it has turned into a shouting match, along with name calling over what is really simply taste. 40k as far asI can tell, is built upon poor Ip control, Mary sue one upmen ship with the writers and no one giving a damn about consistency within the setting. Just chill guys, you are not going change each others taste.
I already covered that whole point before. And Zwei wanted to keep going and put his foot in his mouth. Then tried to hold me to some standard that he wasn't holding himself to. Can't blame me for wanting consistency in a discussion. *Shrug*
But since OP has asked and this is his thread I will do the right thing and stop. So I'm out. Have at my posts. I will go direct this rage elsewhere.
What gets me is why blame ward? The blame for anything he does really lays at the feet of GW. They hired him, do not control their IP and seem to have zero interest in the setting consistency, play balance and yes editing work in books before it hits stands. I just do not get it, they let them slide on everything and blame the man they more or less threw in saying "Eh do what ya want" I myself Like some of the stuff I have read of wards, but that is only the Necron book. GW honestly does a crap job of managing the game. One man should NEVER be in charge of a whole book. I can not honestly think of any other company that allows that.
Sure some blame for this stuff goes to ward, however stuff should be reviewed by more then one person, playtested and someone should be in control of the whole IP, A creative director if you will. with a bit of help and control all the books would be better if you ask me.
If it wouldn't be such a violation of copyright I would be happy to scan their entries from Slaves to Darkness, Dark Millennium and the 3rd Ed Codex so we can see everything side by side. Don't have the latest one laying around for obvious reasons. But their entry went from regular Marines who had Inquisitorial support and were sent to fight Daemons, to individuals geared to be able to handle themselves against Daemons, to a small teams geared to be able to handle themselves against Daemons, to a whole army geared to be able to obliterate Daemons without trying. They always had sueish traits (with the exception of the Slaves entry), but never proper sues until Ward made Draigo and turned their NEMESIS factor up to 11.
I don't have the original slaves to darkness, but I do have some of the stuff from rogue trader and up to 2nd edition, but the main issue is that fluff has changed and evolved to the point it's affected everyone, from DA losing their hinduish traits as well as their secrets and pasts changing to new chapters coming into play. With "new" old technology propping up and coming in now. Space marines aren't like they used to be back in the RT days after all, along with the Emporer being near death, instead of just asleep like the old days.
I don't honestly mind Draigo, I really mind the Khornate Gray Knights, because that was just horrible in so many ways from both a literary, and even from a 40k standpoint. The reason I can happily ignore draigo is because he's at the moment completely worthless.
He's like some of my favorite Greek Tragedies, a grand hero with lofty goals and a high power level that he overshadows everyone, but like a mortal he's at the fate of the gods. Rather than the Greek gods, he's truly at the call of the hellish 40k Gods, a playable thing of tragedy that as a result, he's allowed to destroy daemons, conquer the Garden of Nurgle and burn it to the warp wretched ground, and even topple Tzeentch's fortress..
But all for what? The daemons reappear, laughing at his efforts to truly slay them and taunt his efforts in their zone, the Garden of Nurgle springs forth from the ashes all around him, while the great unclean one's thank him from afar for cleaning out some of the older diseases they've yet to get rid of, and the fortress rises, with new tortures and horrors within as the fortress of change, willingly granted change by a Gray Knight, continues on with its purpose with it's new design.
In the zone of the warp, the daemons rule and Draigo forever must fight, but his fighting is meaningless. He might as well be dead for all the effort he expends just to stay alive in hell.
Sure some blame for this stuff goes to ward, however stuff should be reviewed by more then one person, playtested and someone should be in control of the whole IP, A creative director if you will. with a bit of help and control all the books would be better if you ask me.
Jervis is supposed to do that, but he's even worse...
Oh my hatred for GW is a WHOLE other topic for another time. I do blame them for not reigning in Ward and completely agree (mentioned before even), but that doesn't excuse him from his own actions either given his professional level in the hobby.
Anyway that was it from me for a while, and I only replied because you asked. Need to shower and get some lunch. So talk to you later if this is still going and there is anything valid I can contribute that isn't directly Ward Hate related.
@Zebio. You mean they have a creative director??? I am simply unsure what to say to that.
It's less one person but a group, he got vetoed when it came to trying to take away something the ogres had earned, got huffy and actually left a bitter note that it's unfluffy to do it that way..In the faq!
ZebioLizard2 wrote:[It's less one person but a group, he got vetoed when it came to trying to take away something the ogres had earned, got huffy and actually left a bitter note that it's unfluffy to do it that way..In the faq!
I did not see anything wrong with that, if it is the one I am looking out. It seems to me to be saying "Look this was not meant to be used this way, however by the rules it is allowed. I myself would not allow it"
Stuff like that happens in game companies. They really do have crap in the way of creative management, however.
"Look this was not meant to be used this way, however by the rules it is allowed. I myself would not allow it"
Okay, that's fine and potentially could be allowed.
Now do you think it should be left within a public venue that's used for corrections for pure game play rules, not as one persons personal soapbox as to what they decide.
It's also as if leaving a very personal note inside it as a way of saying "No you shouldn't be able to do it, and next edition you won't be able to because I will make it so"
And by the fluff, they actually can use armor while casting magic.
Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well said. I asked a simple question and it has turned into a shouting match, along with name calling over what is really simply taste. 40k as far asI can tell, is built upon poor Ip control, Mary sue one upmen ship with the writers and no one giving a damn about consistency within the setting. Just chill guys, you are not going change each others taste.
Why do I have a felling that you watch how this guys argue with popcorn in your hands?
Its basically his own personal bias showing and telling people how HE thinks people should have fun. And that there is a right and wrong way to have fun with this. More or less.
If he really felt there was a proper need to address that point with an Ed note it could have been worded better IMO. But I have a lot of customer service experience so I always try to read things in a manner that looks for where statements can be divisive or interpreted the wrong way so it isn't instantly apparent to everyone as it would be in my mind.
As they say perception is reality, so best to avoid any perception issues entirely if you can rather than just have to fix them later.
They should address things with errata I agree. I just did not see anything in the statement I read that came off as bitter. It came off as something that was overruled but as the author of said rule he made clear his intent with it.
Now I know nothing of this guys history so maybe that would color it a different way, but from what I read, if we are reading the same thing I simply did not take bitter away from it.
@Coa, Not at all man. some of it was informative, but after a point my eyes glazed over and it read mostly like long yells(Types?) of "Are not!, Are too!" I was simply curious about the topic, which is why I asked. I should have known what it would lead to with the level of hate the names seems to inspire however.
Draigo is a total failure. He has utterly failed to achieve any lasting victory. If it weren't for his iron-clad determination, he'd not even be a sympathetic character. He fails. Constantly. It's his entire existence. That he keeps trying is what makes him heroic, not any success he's had (since it is none).
That is depth of character.
How anyone can read him as "the great and unstoppable hero" is without understanding.
If you want to find somethings shallow and vapid in the Grey Knight codex, look at Crowe. Draigo is not your target.
Hunterindarkness wrote:They should address things with errata I agree. I just did not see anything in the statement I read that came off as bitter. It came off as something that was overruled but as the author of said rule he made clear his intent with it.
Now I know nothing of this guys history so maybe that would color it a different way, but from what I read, if we are reading the same thing I simply did not take bitter away from it.
Well I think the bitterness is interpreted by the in-necessity of him telling us it got debated over and what not. It doesn't really add anything to the note. All it sounds like is someone didn't like outcome and had to vent it somewhere. Tad subjective but really the whole note doesn't really need to be there at all which is the telling factor for me at least. And a name with a date once again doesn't entirely need to be there. Date especially. It just reeks of WHY.
I probably wouldn't have really noticed it myself either without more than a cursory glance and read it the same as you, but going over it again it just seems unnecessary. The question in the FAQ got answered, and any original oversight could have been put into the actual answer and not a note. Like 'Yes, though this wasn't our intent but is RAW' or something.
It also begs the question why that question got special attention with its answer when others don't. It didn't seem that special to me at least to warrant the attention it got.
But yeah I am reading this with a different set of eyes to you so mileage is going to vary but I can see where Zeibo is coming from.
Hunterindarkness wrote:
@Coa, Not at all man. some of it was informative, but after a point my eyes glazed over and it read mostly like long yells(Types?) of "Are not!, Are too!" I was simply curious about the topic, which is why I asked. I should have known what it would lead to with the level of hate the names seems to inspire however.
I know, I was kidding
But since you are new here, let me tell you the most important rule of Dakka: everybody have their own opinion on how 40k work. As you read trough post you will see that most of the people defend their believes and army's ( "my army is the best" syndrome ) to the death - even going as far as insulting other people on national and racial level ( I was insulted on national level few times already because of some minor things ). So don't be to surprised if your post about Tau, Matt Ward, Grey Knights, Ultramarines or any other sensitive subject ends up like this.
OMG RACIAL SLUR ALERT THE INTERNET PO... oh, wait. I get it.
Yeah, I read the fluff for Draigo and it's not all that bad. Although I did find myself inserting "And then..." at the beginning of every paragraph, which only made it better. And slightly amusing.
He's a tragic hero, and that I can get behind.
There are fluff reasons to hate Matt Ward's writing (notably his failures as a writer - things like saying "It's hard to imagine"), and the rules are definitely pushing the limits of what could possibly be considered "codex creep".
It seems like all of GWs writers are in some kind of competition to see who can go the furthest over the top the fastest when it comes to rules, and Ward's GK 'dex has set the bar pretty fething high. Let's hope that it's just in preparation for a major overhaul with 6th edition and leave it at that - if it isn't that, then I foresee a lot of whining and a run on GK models.
Atma01 wrote:Only mexican jew lizards post about that Codex.
Ok, everyone, before we jump on Atma, this is a reference to an old Penny Arcade comic. Don't ban him the way I was banned for using the phrase 'die in a fire'.
Chesh wrote:Yeah, I read the fluff for Draigo and it's not all that bad. Although I did find myself inserting "And then..." at the beginning of every paragraph, which only made it better. And slightly amusing.
He's a tragic hero, and that I can get behind. .
The problem I have with the idea of Draigo as a tragic hero is that for something to be a tragedy something that the person hold dear must be lost, or they have been brought down by their own hubris (if you want to go Greek tragedy style) . Dragio's life in the materium and the warp are exactly the same, only he's now in the chaos god's face 24/7, and that'd forgetting that he does occasionally gets pulled back into the real world and proceeds to kick seven different flavors of snot out of everything in arm's reach (how else would he be on the table?).
and that'd forgetting that he does occasionally gets pulled back into the real world and proceeds to kick seven different flavors of snot out of everything in arm's reach (how else would he be on the table?).
The same way several dead SC's get on the table even though they're dead in the fluff.
I found Zweischneid's reply to Atma01 very calm, well written and peacefully explaining his point of view.
Completely opposed to rockerbikie's response which was just plain awful. No content. No reference to any of the points. Unnecessary video.
I am seriously puzzled what post did you reply to... There is no mentioning of 4chan, there is absolutely no aggression, no name-calling. He is mostly talking about authors while you are only talking about him personally. It's actually people like you who are responsible for "trolling" and awful state of internet conversations.
I didn't read the whole topic but Zweischneid dominated the last pages. Partly because other responses were very lacking.
And I'm not trying to defend/accuse Ward, just pointing out the overall quality of statements.
Just my 2 cents.
Then read the entire thing and you'll get the references to 1d4chan, Notice the evidence twisted in his favour and realise that he seems to love the words mary sue and twilight whilst subscribing to the theory that repeating your arguament somehow makes it stronger. He mentioned vect at least 5 times as a wrongly defined example of a Mary sue.
Hunterindarkness wrote:well once the over blown Matt ward hate stops or someone places a sticky warning new folks about it, then threads like this stop.
Or trolls start them anyway since its an easy way to get a reaction.
Hunterindarkness wrote:well once the over blown Matt ward hate stops or someone places a sticky warning new folks about it, then threads like this stop.
Or trolls start them anyway since its an easy way to get a reaction.
Nom
You may have a point, but in this thread alone I have seen folks hate on him, not based on anything except he wrote something, so it must be hated. They never even gave it a chance or took any merit from it at all because he wrote it so it must be hated.. I mean if you have a reason to dislike something, that is one thing. But from what I have seen it is far more over blown then it really warrants.
Hunterindarkness wrote:well once the over blown Matt ward hate stops or someone places a sticky warning new folks about it, then threads like this stop.
Or trolls start them anyway since its an easy way to get a reaction.
Nom
You may have a point, but in this thread alone I have seen folks hate on him, not based on anything except he wrote something, so it must be hated. They never even gave it a chance or took any merit from it at all because he wrote it so it must be hated.. I mean if you have a reason to dislike something, that is one thing. But from what I have seen it is far more over blown then it really warrants.
Hunterindarkness wrote:well once the over blown Matt ward hate stops or someone places a sticky warning new folks about it, then threads like this stop.
Or trolls start them anyway since its an easy way to get a reaction.
Nom
You may have a point, but in this thread alone I have seen folks hate on him, not based on anything except he wrote something, so it must be hated. They never even gave it a chance or took any merit from it at all because he wrote it so it must be hated.. I mean if you have a reason to dislike something, that is one thing. But from what I have seen it is far more over blown then it really warrants.
Welcome to the internet. Where if you like/love something there's ten more that hate it for no reason.
A lot if ward hate is warranted he's done some daft things with rules and fluff, but you'll find anywhere wards name is the trolls are never far behind.
Luke_Prowler wrote:How about we just agree that whether you like or hate Ward is a matter of OPINION and leave it at that
This is 99% true and I agree. The other 1% is foibles like the indefensible Spiritual Liege gaff, and when people try to pass opinion off as fact or an absolute. That is the part that tends to set me off at least.
But this whole thread has gotten a little drawn out so um... how about that local sports team eh?
Atma01 wrote:. how about that local sports team eh?
Well my locale sports team, which happens to be a collage basketball team just won the national championship, so I am good with that topic
Lol. And I just remembered that mine would be the Parramatta Eels for the Rugby League. And that it will be another year of heartbreak for me. Useless bloody Eels. :(
So how about that local Starcraft team eh?
Oh and I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to Zwei, assuming he hasn't set me to ignore already. Sorry buddy if that did get overly personal and aggressive. I am usually pretty chill and try to be proper about this sort of subjective stuff. Unfortunately the GK Codex and the Ward fiasco is one of the few things that can bypass my usual safe guards and set me off.
So I'm sorry there buddy. We don't have to be friends and you don't even have to accept the apology, but I thought I would try and clear the air. I think I did step over a line somewhere there and that is not cool. So my bad, and once again I'm sorry.
nomsheep wrote:Then read the entire thing and you'll get the references to 1d4chan, Notice the evidence twisted in his favour and realise that he seems to love the words mary sue and twilight whilst subscribing to the theory that repeating your arguament somehow makes it stronger. He mentioned vect at least 5 times as a wrongly defined example of a Mary sue.
Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it.
Nom
Maybe that is my thing with this discussion. I didn't see any previous posts but it doesn't matter. I honestly don't see all that reference to 4chan in his long post. There may be some but the answers are so aggressive and focused on that one thing. Also, rockerbikie posed something about idiots, you posted something about full of idiots. I don't see that either.
He also mentioned Maugan Ra as much as he did Vect but again it seems like his whole post is just about Vect and 4chan.
He talks about MarySue a lot but that is one of the main problems people say they have with Ward. How else can he defend him if he can't address number one hate-reason?
I get that he may have used it, but when he stopped or toned it down why bash him for something that happened earlier?
It just seems to me that responses to his post show exactly why Matt-hatred is so overblown.
I do get it that one may not like Ward, even hate him. But not everything is as bad as people make it.
According to the internet everything he does is bad and if something is bad he has a monopoly for it.
No matter what he writes, how he writes it, how interesting his rules are, EVERYTHING is bad because some parts are bad. I see this directly applied to Z's post. His post and reasoning wasn't addressed in for what it was but what the author wrote earlier.
Macok wrote:Maybe that is my thing with this discussion. I didn't see any previous posts but it doesn't matter. I honestly don't see all that reference to 4chan in his long post. There may be some but the answers are so aggressive and focused on that one thing. Also, rockerbikie posed something about idiots, you posted something about full of idiots. I don't see that either.
He also mentioned Maugan Ra as much as he did Vect but again it seems like his whole post is just about Vect and 4chan.
He talks about MarySue a lot but that is one of the main problems people say they have with Ward. How else can he defend him if he can't address number one hate-reason?
I get that he may have used it, but when he stopped or toned it down why bash him for something that happened earlier?
It just seems to me that responses to his post show exactly why Matt-hatred is so overblown.
I do get it that one may not like Ward, even hate him. But not everything is as bad as people make it.
According to the internet everything he does is bad and if something is bad he has a monopoly for it.
No matter what he writes, how he writes it, how interesting his rules are, EVERYTHING is bad because some parts are bad. I see this directly applied to Z's post. His post and reasoning wasn't addressed in for what it was but what the author wrote earlier.
Sorry dude but you do kinda need to go over the other posts to get the context of why it got to the point it did. It started civil (well mine did at least), but then erroneous statements were made. And not on subjective things like fluff preference, but statements of fact that weren't correct. Then certain things were being outright ignored when pointed out.
As for the idea that everything he writes is bad because of a few bad things, that is partially the case. I don't think everything he does is bad, and as I stated earlier I make no judgment on his rules and he did put some nifty stuff in there. But people are allowed to not want to buy anything he had something to do with, as that isn't the same thing as everything he does is actually bad. It is a blurry line but hopefully this next part will clear up what I mean. It is the concept in the customer service industry of a 'toxic' customer. One that has become so jaded with your product or service that they not only refuse to purchase it, but actively seek to deny you sales by telling others of the horrible service or product. He turned a number of the fanbase toxic by his actions and attitude (specifically the Spiritual Liege thing) and that is entirely fair. That is why I stated I simply refuse to purchase anything with his name on it until I see a change in attitude, and in my mind an increase in his ability as a fluff writer. The part that does him in unfortunately is that perception is reality. If enough people think its bad, then for all intents and purposes it is. That is why customer service is so important and why one always needs to do anything they can to prevent toxic customers.
For many of us he was just the icing on the GW lie cake though. GW's actions and business practices turned me toxic to them a long time ago.
Did that make sense? Never had to type out the explanation of a toxic customer before.
-you Daemons!" buttons that are easy instant wins just to pick on those players for no real reason... (because getting army-wide prefered enemy & daemonbane rules wasn't nearly enough of an advantage!)
And oh yes, he's doing TMNT.. and making them 
I am simply unsure what to say to that.