so i ram a another vehicle say a land raider. Travel max distance to get there lets say 12.5 inches. (red paint and all) with my Battle wagon with a deff rolla.

inside the wagon is a nob with a pk

so i ram immobilize the LR and am parked next too it.

my assault phase i use my boarding plank and swing and whiff lets say. (i can still due this since neither vehicle has moved more than 12") (red paint notwithstanding)

now opponents assault phase my truck is still sitting in boarding plank range. what is stopping me from assaulting from my plank again?

as far as i can tell i can still in their assault phase use my plank and maybe finally destroy what i am hitting.

The problem, is the wording of the boarding plank, "as if the ork were disembarked and charging". Since you cannot charge on your opponents turn...

Gonna say 'no' to opponents turn as you are not engaged or BtB and the plank doesn;t give you explicit permission to do so on your opponent's turn. Hell it doesn't even say what phase and implies the ork players assault phase which means the rule needs a bit of RAI to work... which means no RAI for hitting on opponent's turn.

for the plank can be with in 2 inchs for it to work

at HJ i see that.

but it also says makes it close combat attacks

on a side note what restriction does charging have to do with an opponents turn?

The fact that you can not charge in your opponents turn.

That is why the restriction is important.

"as if the ork were disembarked and charging"

And since you can not charge on your opponents turn, you can not use the plank on your opponents turn.

jsut to press the point. where does it say i cant in the brb?


on the plank issue.

i satisfy the requirements to use it it i am within two inches

so it is if i am in b2b with said vehicle for purposes of CC and i get my furious charge bonus since i count as charging

It says it where it says you can not charge during your opponents turn. (P.33 you can only assault in your turn).

ok death reaper, where does it say i am assaulting ? it says i make my Close Combat attacks as if i was disembarked and charging?

no where do i make an assault.




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(though technically i am assaulting ie punching something is assaulting it, try it on a person see where that gets you lol) (has no in game effect)

Charging = assault.

The ork that did the Boarding Plank attacks is not base-to-base with the enemy vehicle if he stays in his Trukk, no attacks on the enemy turn.

nothing on page 33 disallows an assault on an opponents turn, the only thing forbidding you to do so is well simply its not your turn.

and assaulting=/=charging

edit

assaulting = charging. the rule book does not have the word charge in the assault phase section, its implied.

still has no bearing on the current situation though

The only things that give your models permission to make attacks in the enemy turn is being engaged in CC or being b2b with a vehicle you assaulted.

This is a permissive ruleset - it gives you permission to do something, not permission to do anything that isn't forbidden. Nothing prevents you from issuing orders to IG squads on the enemy turn either, except for it not being your turn.

I'd say it makes sense fluff wise: Orky the Ork ain't gonna sit around in his big bad battlewagon while there's things to chop up

Especially if there's a nice juicy immobile land raider parked next to him hehe

permission granted.

am i with in 2" of an enemy vehicle yes

did neither vehicle move more than 12. yes

and embarked ork can now make CC attacks as if he was charging.

that right there is pretty permissive to me?

does it say can only do it in the controlling players assault phase. No

does it mention any thing about phases at all. No.

tell me where i dont have permission to use this piece of wargear.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:and assaulting=/=charging

If that is true, then you do not gain the benefits of Furious charge when using the boarding plank.

So Charging either refers to Assaulting, or Charging refers to nothing, as charging is not really defined in the BRB.

and you can not charge in your opponents turn, as you do not have permission to do so.

Well: intead of going through all that reasoning, you could have just made the conclusion

BECAUSE - ORKS

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:and assaulting=/=charging

If that is true, then you do not gain the benefits of Furious charge when using the boarding plank.

So Charging either refers to Assaulting, or Charging refers to nothing, as charging is not really defined in the BRB.

and you can not charge in your opponents turn, as you do not have permission to do so.

i did edit that statment, and you could argue that, cause charging is not defined as you said



the boarding plank gives permission?.

Charging must be read to mean "as if you are assaulting", to mean anything.

You cannot launch an assault in your opponent's turn.

No the boarding plank does not give permission to assault in your opponents phase. It says "as if the ork were disembarked and charging" and you can not be charging in your opponents turn.

So Charging = Assaulting, or Charging means nothing, and you do not have permission to swing because it does not say (as if the ork were disembarked and assaulting) since you can only make CC attacks if you have assaulted something.

In 4th ed Charging = Assaulting (As far as I remember), so that is possibly why it is written that way.

time for some verbatim

Boarding Plank

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "


I am Making my CC attacks as if I charged. but i am not Moving my model and charging or doing any thing of the assault.

the way it is worded i hit i CC like i am Actually in CC but at no time is my ork in CC

"exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging"

Means for the purposes of the rule, you are charging.

Which you are not allowed to do in your opponents assault phase.

Just place the Ork model on the battlewagon somewhere, but within BtB with the enemies vehicle. He is still embarked, and can "make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging"

TheMostSlyFox wrote:Just place the Ork model on the battlewagon somewhere, but within BtB with the enemies vehicle. He is still embarked, and can "make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging"

Actually no, you can not do that, as you are not allowed to "place the Ork model on the battlewagon somewhere" because when they embark you remove them from the table.

DeathReaper wrote:"exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging"

Means for the purposes of the rule, you are charging.

Which you are not allowed to do in your opponents assault phase.

the Attacks are made as if i am Charging but at no point am i charging

i get the +str but i don't charge you

There are two mentions of the boarding plank in the FAQ, one of them being:

Q: Can an Ork that is attacking an enemy vehicle by
using a boarding plank do so even if his unit fired at a
different target in the Shooting phase? (p93)
A: Yes.

The wording of the Q assumes that the attack takes place in the Ork's attack phase (because of the reference to the previous Ork shooting phase).

Maybe this helps?

Well then, have I got a bone to pick with all the SM and subsidaries, IG, and other Ork players that place models on their tanks

It does slightly due to the fact i am not Assaulting in the either players assault phase. so who i shoot at before hand is irrelevant

the wording also says Attacking, not assaulting.

Second part that mentions the Boarding plank

Q: Can a Walker attack back against an Ork attacking
him from a boarding plank? (p93)
A: No.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:so i ram a another vehicle say a land raider. Travel max distance to get there lets say 12.5 inches. (red paint and all) with my Battle wagon with a deff rolla.

inside the wagon is a nob with a pk

so i ram immobilize the LR and am parked next too it.

my assault phase i use my boarding plank and swing and whiff lets say. (i can still due this since neither vehicle has moved more than 12" (red paint notwithstanding)

now opponents assault phase my truck is still sitting in boarding plank range. what is stopping me from assaulting from my plank again?

as far as i can tell i can still in their assault phase use my plank and maybe finally destroy what i am hitting.

Now I'm confused here. You say you move more than twelve?, but then you say you didn't move more than 12"?

Anyway, assuming you didn't move more than 12 - you're asking for permission to use wargear within your opponents phase. The owning player is actively "activating" his model inside the trukk to use the boarding planks. Since you can't activate your units in the opponent's turn, unless specifically stated otherwise, I'd say you could not use Boarding Planks.

And I'm an Ork player, btw

The Ork is not in combat with the Land Raider.

What you are doing is using a bit of vehicle wargear to make an attack.

You can't use wargear in an opponents turn unless the wargear itself gives permission.

TheMostSlyFox wrote:Well then, have I got a bone to pick with all the SM and subsidaries, IG, and other Ork players that place models on their tanks

As long as they are only doing it to denote what transport is holding which squad, then it is okay, but it has no game effect beyond letting everyone know what unit is in what transport.

Having the model there on the vehicle and trying to have him make attacks from the back of a Land Raider is not allowed...

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:"exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging"

Means for the purposes of the rule, you are charging.

Which you are not allowed to do in your opponents assault phase.

the Attacks are made as if i am Charging but at no point am i charging

i get the +str but i don't charge you

You are making attacks "exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging" So it is treated exactly as if you were charging...

You know the way you are allowed to keep going as if it's another round of combat in the opponents phase if you are still in b2b with a vehicle.

If during your turn you drop the plank and hit it could you continue using the plank then in the opponents turn?

A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks angainst an enemy vehicle within 2" exacty as if the Orks were disembarked and charging." (Codex: Orks pg. 93)

You are given explicit permission to attack and count as charging by the boarding plank, as long as the embarked ork is able to make close combat attacks. An ork can make close combat attacks during any assault phase, not just his player's.

Coteaz says any argument concerning "you may only assault/charge during your turn" is null and void. Besides that, nothing prevents you from counting as charging at any point of the game.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Boarding Plank
"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"

Note that nowhere in the above does it tell you WHEN the Ork player makes these attacks. So no special permission is granted by the plank to make the assault in your opponent's assault phase, any more than permission is granted to do it in the movement phase, or the shooting phase for that matter.

The only way you get to make attacks is "as if disembarked and charging". Charging (launching an assault) is something you can only do in your own assault phase.




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liturgies of blood wrote:You know the way you are allowed to keep going as if it's another round of combat in the opponents phase if you are still in b2b with a vehicle.

If during your turn you drop the plank and hit it could you continue using the plank then in the opponents turn?

Per the rulebook, a model in a transport is not placed on the table, and thus cannot be in contact with any enemy unit. Per the FAQ, he does count as being in contact with his own transport vehicle, but not with anything else.

While I normally agree with you Mannahin, I find myself on the side of Jidmah and The_Godlyness.

As quoted the Boarding Plank allows you to make attacks. The whole bit about exactly like disembarked and charging only serves to tell you how to make the attacks. I.E. How many attacks you get and if furious charge bonuses apply.

If you apply the "exactly as if" to the charging you would have to apply it to the disembarked as well. I think we can all agree that you don't have to disembark the orks in order to use this piece of wargear.

This is an obvious example of where "as if" does not mean "is".

Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

Icemyn wrote:
Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

This.

If someone wants to try to thump RAW then technically the boarding plank DOES NOTHING because it doesn't actually ever give you permission to use it in any phase of the game. For it to function it is IMPLIED that it works during the assault phase as does the FAQ.

If we rely on the implication it works in the assault phase, then you can't turn around in the same breath and argue RAW that you may use it in the opponents turn.

It doesn't say when you CAN use it which means you cannot ever use it, not 'you can always use it anytime you wish'. It also doesn't tell you how often you may use it because it relies on implications like shooting an assaulting which ma be done once per very specific phase.

So either you:
A: Accept the RAI that it is implied to be an assault move done in the assault phase on your turn which can only be done once per that phase.
B: The wargear does nothing due to no explicit permition of number of times and phase this 'charging' attack occurs.

Any other interpretation becomes RAI which as soon as it is unreasonable, the game stops.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

This.

If someone wants to try to thump RAW then technically the boarding plank DOES NOTHING because it doesn't actually ever give you permission to use it in any phase of the game. For it to function it is IMPLIED that it works during the assault phase as does the FAQ.

If we rely on the implication it works in the assault phase, then you can't turn around in the same breath and argue RAW that you may use it in the opponents turn.

It doesn't say when you CAN use it which means you cannot ever use it, not 'you can always use it anytime you wish'. It also doesn't tell you how often you may use it because it relies on implications like shooting an assaulting which ma be done once per very specific phase.

So either you:
A: Accept the RAI that it is implied to be an assault move done in the assault phase on your turn which can only be done once per that phase.
B: The wargear does nothing due to no explicit permition of number of times and phase this 'charging' attack occurs.

Any other interpretation becomes RAI which as soon as it is unreasonable, the game stops.

well do you make close combat attacks in the movement phase? no

do you make close combat attacks in the shooting phase. no

therefore you have to be in the assault phase.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

This.

If someone wants to try to thump RAW then technically the boarding plank DOES NOTHING because it doesn't actually ever give you permission to use it in any phase of the game. For it to function it is IMPLIED that it works during the assault phase as does the FAQ.

If we rely on the implication it works in the assault phase, then you can't turn around in the same breath and argue RAW that you may use it in the opponents turn.

It doesn't say when you CAN use it which means you cannot ever use it, not 'you can always use it anytime you wish'. It also doesn't tell you how often you may use it because it relies on implications like shooting an assaulting which ma be done once per very specific phase.

So either you:
A: Accept the RAI that it is implied to be an assault move done in the assault phase on your turn which can only be done once per that phase.
B: The wargear does nothing due to no explicit permition of number of times and phase this 'charging' attack occurs.

Any other interpretation becomes RAI which as soon as it is unreasonable, the game stops.

You know, it say right there when to use it. Whenever an embarked ork would make a close combat attack. It just changes what the ork can direct its close combat attacks at.

If you manage to get allowance for your embarked orks to make close combat attacks during movement or shooting, you would be allowed to use the boarding plank right then.

Do not mistake no limitation for no allowance. Otherwise the whole game system comes crashing down on you, as I would bet my hat that there are dozens of static, non triggering special rules which are not limited to any phase.

Jidmah wrote:

You know, it say right there when to use it. Whenever an embarked ork would make a close combat attack. It just changes what the ork can direct its close combat attacks at.

If you manage to get allowance for your embarked orks to make close combat attacks during movement or shooting, you would be allowed to use the boarding plank right then.

Do not mistake no limitation for no allowance. Otherwise the whole game system comes crashing down on you, as I would bet my hat that there are dozens of static, non triggering special rules which are not limited to any phase.

Except if a rule said you could make your close combat attacks in the movement phase then you would eb allow to because you have explicit permission. We just assume it works in the assault phase because we are implying we follow all the rules for assault and close combat, hence where the assumption they could possibly execute attacks as if they were in combat in the opponents phase is getting pulled from.

The problem is there are people in other threads on other forums who argue the lack of specificity gives them freedom to use it anytime. Which is hogwosh. Even the definition of 'charging=assault' requires RAI due to this being a 4th edition codex.

This is why implying that the 'as if' combined with close combat = attack on models within 2" in the assault phase of your opponent takes leaps of RAI which are not supported.

nkelsch wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

You know, it say right there when to use it. Whenever an embarked ork would make a close combat attack. It just changes what the ork can direct its close combat attacks at.

If you manage to get allowance for your embarked orks to make close combat attacks during movement or shooting, you would be allowed to use the boarding plank right then.

Do not mistake no limitation for no allowance. Otherwise the whole game system comes crashing down on you, as I would bet my hat that there are dozens of static, non triggering special rules which are not limited to any phase.

Except if a rule said you could make your close combat attacks in the movement phase then you would eb allow to because you have explicit permission. We just assume it works in the assault phase because we are implying we follow all the rules for assault and close combat, hence where the assumption they could possibly execute attacks as if they were in combat in the opponents phase is getting pulled from.

So how is the rule influenced at all by when you are allowed to make close combat attacks? It is always active, just like stubborn, force weapons or mob rule. It just doesn't have an effect unless the ork is currently able to make close combat attacks, just like stubborn doesn't have any effect unless you are taking moral checks with a modifier. If you claim that boarding plank doesn't work because no timing is defined, then stubborn and force weapons don't work either.

The problem is there are people in other threads on other forums who argue the lack of specificity gives them freedom to use it anytime. Which is hogwosh. Even the definition of 'charging=assault' requires RAI due to this being a 4th edition codex.

BRB pg. 36, last paragraph defines "a charge" as the process of assaulting.

You also mistakenly assume that the BRB is to be parsed like source code or technical writing. You are applying an incompatible method of reading to a text that is not written that way and thus get wrong results. RAW does allow and require minimal interpretation as long as those interpretations are unambiguous. If one interpretation breaks the game and the other doesn't, the former one is obviously irrelevant.

This is why implying that the 'as if' combined with close combat = attack on models within 2" in the assault phase of your opponent takes leaps of RAI which are not supported.

No leaps, pure RAW.

BRB pg. 35 allows orks to make close combat attacks against models in base contact, independent from whose turn it is.
Codex Orks pg. 93 allows embarked orks to attack vehicles within 2" of a vehicle with a boarding plank
BRB pg. 63 allows orks to strike vehicles that were attacked the turn before again if it has not moved, just as in a normal ongoing combat.

All the boarding plank does is change "base contact" to "within 2" of my vehicle" for one ork. He also gets to count as charging, which isn't that mind breaking, considering that other models get to shoot or make close combat attacks out of order if a tank runs them over.

If the plank truly made "within 2" of my vehicle" the equivalent of base contact, you'd have an actual assault, with the target (if it was a Walker) able to fight back, combat resolution, being locking in combat, etc. You're having to create more rules.

All the plank does is what it says. Allows the model to attack. The plank does not specify WHEN it allows the model to attack. This leaves us two options:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge.
2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

Mannahnin wrote:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge.
2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

And if someone argues #2 (which I have met people who are) then I would say the lack of specificity means the wargear ceases to function.

So it is #1 or the game ends.

Why are people ignoring the first part of the quoted rule so much? The part that tells us when the plank can be used:

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles..."

The planks can be used whenever the orks are allowed to make assaults. So whenever an ork can make an assault...thats the only time the planks can be used. There is nothing in the plank rules that allows the ork player to launch assaults at new times.




Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Why are people ignoring the first part of the quoted rule so much? The part that tells us when the plank can be used:

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles..."

The planks can be used whenever the orks are allowed to make assaults. So whenever an ork can make an assault...thats the only time the planks can be used. There is nothing in the plank rules that allows the ork player to launch assaults at new times.




Sliggoth

it was being ignored due to it being fluff.

on the walker fighting back there is a FAQ saying he can't

in the FAQ it specifies, when the ork Attacks using the..... not when the ork assaults using the BP

Right. So no assault is ACTUALLY launched, the ork never counts as being in base contact or engaged in assault. Thus he cannot attack in the opponent's turn, and as the FAQ confirms, an enemy walker can't attack him back.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:nothing on page 33 disallows an assault on an opponents turn, the only thing forbidding you to do so is well simply its not your turn.

and assaulting=/=charging.

If you try this on an opponent, expect several hits upside the face with a BGB.

Mannahnin wrote:Right. So no assault is ACTUALLY launched, the ork never counts as being in base contact or engaged in assault. Thus he cannot attack in the opponent's turn, and as the FAQ confirms, an enemy walker can't attack him back.

Correct no Assault is launched.

but i can still make attacks. due to satisfying the requirements to use it.

did neitehr vehicle move more than 12 check

are you within 2" check

then an embarked ork can make his CC attacks V that vehicle.


mind you i am not completely ignorant that this needs so interpretation as to when. but i think we all agree it happens in the assault phase. if only because that is when CC attacks are made.

We assume that it is the ork Controlling players assault phase due to it being his/her turn.

but as icemyn has pointed out it should not work in the first place.


but now envision this two Battle wagons Roll up next to each other and both of them make simultaneous boarding plank attacks. now that seems like some Free Booting pirate shenanigans there.

"...as if disembarked and charging". You can only charge in your own turn.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:We assume that it is the ork Controlling players assault phase due to it being his/her turn.

It has to be only on "Controlling players assault phase" because of the wording of the rule that says:

"...as if disembarked and charging". and you can only charge if it is your own assault phase. You can not charge in the opponents assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:We assume that it is the ork Controlling players assault phase due to it being his/her turn.

It has to be only on "Controlling players assault phase" because of the wording of the rule that says:

"...as if disembarked and charging". and you can only charge if it is your own assault phase. You can not charge in the opponents assault phase.

And am not doing so since as have stated above no assaults are made. no charge is being made at all,

just be cause it says as if i am charging DOES not mean i am making an assault. your reading it with out context.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:"...as if disembarked and charging". You can only charge in your own turn.

and we have established that the ork inside is not making an assault.

Now bearing in mind you're using a Codex written for 4th Edition rules, where 'charging' really was assaulting.

But if we're not assaulting then what are we doing? We're making an attack on a vehicle using a bit of wargear. Something that, if not specified, can't be used in an opponents turn.

grendel083 wrote:Now bearing in mind you're using a Codex written for 4th Edition rules, where 'charging' really was assaulting.

But if we're not assaulting then what are we doing? We're making an attack on a vehicle using a bit of wargear. Something that, if not specified, can't be used in an opponents turn.

This exactly.

It must specify that you can use it "...as if disembarked and charging" on your opponents turn.

It does not say you can, so you can not. This is because of our permissive ruleset.

Mannahnin wrote:If the plank truly made "within 2" of my vehicle" the equivalent of base contact, you'd have an actual assault, with the target (if it was a Walker) able to fight back, combat resolution, being locking in combat, etc. You're having to create more rules.

No you don't. The walker does not get allowance to replace base contact with 2", so by the "Who can fight?" rules, he may not attack, while still being attacked.

All the plank does is what it says. Allows the model to attack. The plank does not specify WHEN it allows the model to attack. This leaves us two options:

That's not what it says. The boarding plank does not allow the model to attack, it allows the model to attack in a special way.

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge.

"As if" can never indicate a condition. So this is irrelevant.

2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

So how about the timing on stubborn and force weapons? Boarding plank is no different than either of those rules. It is not an ability that is used or triggerd, it is simply a static effect that changes how embarked orks do their close combat attacks. No timing required.

DeathReaper wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Now bearing in mind you're using a Codex written for 4th Edition rules, where 'charging' really was assaulting.

But if we're not assaulting then what are we doing? We're making an attack on a vehicle using a bit of wargear. Something that, if not specified, can't be used in an opponents turn.

This exactly.

It must specify that you can use it "...as if disembarked and charging" on your opponents turn.

It does not say you can, so you can not. This is because of our permissive ruleset.

The boarding plank states that you do your attacks as if (as it were, as it would be, in such a way that, just as, just as if, just as though) assaulting. There is no rule preventing you from counting as assaulting for the sake of making attacks outside of your assault phase. Not a single one.

Jidmah wrote:There is no rule preventing you from counting as assaulting for the sake of making attacks outside of your assault phase. Not a single one.

You're right, there isn't. But as mentioned before you're using a permissive rule set. You don't look for a rule that denies permission. You look for a rule that says you can. And the Boarding Plank doesn't.

"As if" can never indicate a condition

It can't be ignored either. If this piece of wargear allowed a true assault it would say "allows a model to assault", but the wording clearly shows this isn't a true assault.

grendel083 wrote:

Jidmah wrote:There is no rule preventing you from counting as assaulting for the sake of making attacks outside of your assault phase. Not a single one.

You're right, there isn't. But as mentioned before you're using a permissive rule set. You don't look for a rule that denies permission. You look for a rule that says you can. And the Boarding Plank doesn't.

"As if" can never indicate a condition

It can't be ignored either. If this piece of wargear allowed a true assault it would say "allows a model to assault", but the wording clearly shows this isn't a true assault.

we have established Assault=charging, BUT that has no bearing in this, icemyn summed it up pretty neatly

Icemyn wrote:While I normally agree with you Mannahin, I find myself on the side of Jidmah and The_Godlyness.

As quoted the Boarding Plank allows you to make attacks. The whole bit about exactly like disembarked and charging only serves to tell you how to make the attacks. I.E. How many attacks you get and if furious charge bonuses apply.

If you apply the "exactly as if" to the charging you would have to apply it to the disembarked as well. I think we can all agree that you don't have to disembark the orks in order to use this piece of wargear.

This is an obvious example of where "as if" does not mean "is".

Personally, my belief is that as it is worded the piece of wargear doesn't work at all. As it doesn't tell you when you can use it. When do you make close combat attacks? when you are locked in combat. Is this ork locked in combat? No. You have to use RAI to even use it during your own assault phase much less theirs.

Just a nit pick. If you immobilized that land raider then you auto hit with your nob.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:we have established Assault=charging, BUT that has no bearing in this, icemyn summed it up pretty neatly

It was summed up neatly, but still a long (long) way off proving that boarding plank can be used in an opponents turn.

Jidmah wrote:

All the plank does is what it says. Allows the model to attack. The plank does not specify WHEN it allows the model to attack. This leaves us two options:

That's not what it says. The boarding plank does not allow the model to attack, it allows the model to attack in a special way.

It allows the model to attack in a circumstance under which it would not not normally be able to attack.

Jidmah wrote:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge

"As if" can never indicate a condition. So this is irrelevant.

What? I dispute this. "As if" can easily be used to tell us HOW a unit performs an action. Telling us that the attacks are made "as if" charging is the basis of the model getting +1A for charging, and being eligible to use its +1S for Furious Assault. If the model can benefit from the benefits of launching an assault, it is only logical and intuitive for it also to be subject to the restriction of charging- that it's something you can only do in your own turn.

Jidmah wrote:

2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

So how about the timing on stubborn and force weapons? Boarding plank is no different than either of those rules. It is not an ability that is used or triggerd, it is simply a static effect that changes how embarked orks do their close combat attacks. No timing required.

You're incorrect on both counts. Both Stubborn and Force Weapons are used at clear and specific times. Stubborn kicks in when the unit takes a Morale test. Force Weapons can be triggered when the model successfully deals a wound. Each has a clear and specific time when it is used.

The Boarding Plank is rule which gives the Ork player the option of having one embarked model attack "as if disembarked and charging". There is no instruction as to when this ability can be used. If it is not when the model could normally charge, then when is it? What is your basis for claiming it is at any other time?

Mannahnin wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge

"As if" can never indicate a condition. So this is irrelevant.

What? I dispute this. "As if" can easily be used to tell us HOW a unit performs an action. Telling us that the attacks are made "as if" charging is the basis of the model getting +1A for charging, and being eligible to use its +1S for Furious Assault. If the model can benefit from the benefits of launching an assault, it is only logical and intuitive for it also to be subject to the restriction of charging- that it's something you can only do in your own turn.

While you may feel that it is "logical" or "intuitive" nothing in the RAW makes it so.
Your argument is basically A implies B therefore B implies C, which I think you can agree isn't true.

As I said I don't think that the plank works at all, but if you want it to work nothing is keeping it from working in your opponents assault phase.

Pg 35 of the BRB under Who can fight.
1 - Models in Base contact with any enemy models.
2 - Models within 2" of another model in base contact.

The Plank lets you make your Close Combat attacks, how many CC attacks does an ork not fitting the above 2 rules get? 0. So feel free to make 0 attacks against my vehicles. Go nuts really.

This is not HIWPI, if my opponent has planks he is free to use them during his turn. If he tries to use them on my turn during another phase(TFG) that will be the last time he gets to use the planks against me at all(RAW).

So you have a few choices for how you would play the plank.
1) It doesnt work at all.(RAW)
2) It works in all assault phases.(RAI(To make it work at all) + RAW)
3) Some RAI reading that we all understand and the Ork Player uses it on his own turn only.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:We assume that it is the ork Controlling players assault phase due to it being his/her turn.

It has to be only on "Controlling players assault phase" because of the wording of the rule that says:

"...as if disembarked and charging". and you can only charge if it is your own assault phase. You can not charge in the opponents assault phase.

And am not doing so since as have stated above no assaults are made. no charge is being made at all,

just be cause it says as if i am charging DOES not mean i am making an assault. your reading it with out context.

You can't say that it is an assault and it isn't an assault to your liking. If it's "as if assaulting" the Ork attacking would get the furious charge bonus as if it was assaulting. You can't get this in the opponents assault phase. Seems to me that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase. Besides, you're not locked in combat with a vehicle during your opponents assault phase, so you wouldn't be able to make attacks against it in their assault phase(excluding walkers, which even have a FAQ indicating that I feel is indictive of this case), as that's something that happens in CC. There is no base contact since the model isn't technically on the board.

As an Ork player I wish this could happen as it's pretty Orky. The rules are kinda fuzzy but there's enough there to say that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase.

beigeknight wrote:
You can't say that it is an assault and it isn't an assault to your liking. If it's "as if assaulting" the Ork attacking would get the furious charge bonus as if it was assaulting. You can't get this in the opponents assault phase. Seems to me that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase. Besides, you're not locked in combat with a vehicle during your opponents assault phase, so you wouldn't be able to make attacks against it in their assault phase(excluding walkers, which even have a FAQ indicating that I feel is indictive of this case), as that's something that happens in CC. There is no base contact since the model isn't technically on the board.

As an Ork player I wish this could happen as it's pretty Orky. The rules are kinda fuzzy but there's enough there to say that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase.

There is a Universal Special rule that shows up in Codex:Space Wolves quite a bit. Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.
Again as I have said a couple of times before the "as if" line is only there to tell you how many attacks you get not to impart timing restrictions.

Icemyn wrote:There is a Universal Special rule that shows up in Codex:Space Wolves quite a bit. Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.

In fact, it has specific allowance to do so because Counter Attack can only be used when you're assaulting. Your statement, while true, is irrelevant - in fact it reinforces the fact that you need permission to assault in your opponents turn.

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:There is a Universal Special rule that shows up in Codex:Space Wolves quite a bit. Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.

In fact, it has specific allowance to do so because Counter Attack can only be used when you're assaulting. Your statement, while true, is irrelevant - in fact it reinforces the fact that you need permission to assault in your opponents turn.

Just so we are clear are you saying that Space Wolves being charged and resolving Counter-Attack are assaulting?
If not then the Boarding Plank is the permission that is required same as the USR Counter-Attack.

Boarding Plank allows CC attacks as if assaulting. (Only serves to indicate number of attacks)
Counter Attack allows the Space Wolves another attack. Note that SW don't get Furious charge while using Counter-Attack, so again reinforcing that they are not assaulting and the wording only imparts a number of attacks.

Icemyn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:There is a Universal Special rule that shows up in Codex:Space Wolves quite a bit. Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.

In fact, it has specific allowance to do so because Counter Attack can only be used when you're assaulting. Your statement, while true, is irrelevant - in fact it reinforces the fact that you need permission to assault in your opponents turn.

Just so we are clear are you saying that Space Wolves being charged and resolving Counter-Attack are assaulting?
If not then the Boarding Plank is the permission that is required same as the USR Counter-Attack.

Boarding Plank allows CC attacks as if assaulting. (Only serves to indicate number of attacks)
Counter Attack allows the Space Wolves another attack. Note that SW don't get Furious charge while using Counter-Attack, so again reinforcing that they are not assaulting and the wording only imparts a number of attacks.

I see a typo I made - it should read "In fact, it has specific allowance to do so because Counter Attack can only be used when you're assaulted."
And I misremembered the wording of Counter Attack - I'll edit and remove my statements if you do as well (just so it's not confusing).

Icemyn wrote: Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.

Counter-Attack most certainly does not allow you to be "as if assaulting". They get +1 assault bonus to their attacks (the same as assaulting). The USR states that it's only the bonus attack that is 'as if they too had assaulted'. It's a big difference otherwise things like Furious Charge could be used with it (this is addessed in the SW FAQ).

Even if you completely ignore the 'as if' disembarked and charching[assaulting] can only happen in your own turn (unless specified otherwise).

rules as writen id say no

but as intended id say yes

Mannahnin wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

All the plank does is what it says. Allows the model to attack. The plank does not specify WHEN it allows the model to attack. This leaves us two options:

That's not what it says. The boarding plank does not allow the model to attack, it allows the model to attack in a special way.

It allows the model to attack in a circumstance under which it would not not normally be able to attack.

It allows a model that would be able to attack anyways to attack in a special way. If the model wouldn't be able to make attacks for whatever reason, it couldn't do so utilizing the boarding plank either.
Thus, the boarding plank does not allow models to attack, it just changes the requirements to be able to attack for one model.

Jidmah wrote:

1. If we take "as if disembarked and charging" to be indicative, then the ork is able to make these attacks in his own assault phase, as that is when models are able to charge

"As if" can never indicate a condition. So this is irrelevant.

What? I dispute this. "As if" can easily be used to tell us HOW a unit performs an action.

Exactly. If you'd like to bark as if you were a dog, you are fine to do that. By your logic, no one could ever bark as if they were dogs, as they are obviously humans.

Telling us that the attacks are made "as if" charging is the basis of the model getting +1A for charging, and being eligible to use its +1S for Furious Assault. If the model can benefit from the benefits of launching an assault, it is only logical and intuitive for it also to be subject to the restriction of charging- that it's something you can only do in your own turn.

Boarding plank explicitly tells you to do attacks as if charging. Please quote a rule that prevents a model from making attacks as if charging(assaulting) if it is explicitly told to do so.
It is also logical and intuitive that models may only shoot during their players turn and only once per turn, Coteaz manages to get around that, too.
Besides "logical and intuitive" has no bearing on RAW. Personally I simply don't use the charge bonuses on the opponents turn (you know, because you don't get them if you actually charged the vehicle). I see no reason why the boarding plank should not work on my opponents turn though. If the vehicle doesn't move and has a plank attached to it, both logic and intuition tell you that the orks are damn well going to jump onto that plank and break that tank open with a powerklaw.

Jidmah wrote:

2. If we assume that phrase is NOT meaningful as regards to timing, then we have no guidance whatsoever. You could as easily argue that the attacks are made in the movement phase or shooting phase as claiming that they are made in both assault phases.

So how about the timing on stubborn and force weapons? Boarding plank is no different than either of those rules. It is not an ability that is used or triggerd, it is simply a static effect that changes how embarked orks do their close combat attacks. No timing required.

You're incorrect on both counts. Both Stubborn and Force Weapons are used at clear and specific times. Stubborn kicks in when the unit takes a Morale test. Force Weapons can be triggered when the model successfully deals a wound. Each has a clear and specific time when it is used.

So, for stubborn and force weapons you are allowed to assume a time when you may use the special rules, but for boarding plank you are not?
There is no phase given when you are allowed to use either. Neither is specified whether they work on both turns or just your turn.
How come that boarding planks need to have a timing specified, but two other rules with implicit timing don't?
Boarding planks are used whenever a model would be able to make attacks, that's just as much timing as "whenever units take a moral test" or "when the model successfully deals a wound".

The Boarding Plank is rule which gives the Ork player the option of having one embarked model attack "as if disembarked and charging". There is no instruction as to when this ability can be used. If it is not when the model could normally charge, then when is it? What is your basis for claiming it is at any other time?

My basis is, surprisingly, the actually rules.
A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" [in a special way]
If, at any time, orks embarked on the upgraded vehicle would be allowed to make close combat attacks, one of them may use the boarding plank's rule to figure out whether it can fight.

You know, just like Stubborn works whenever you are forced to take a moral check with a modifier, independent from whose turn or what phase it is. Same for force weapons. If that IA:8 biker warboss was going to tank-shock your librarian, you could use the force weapon to instant-death him during your opponents movement phase, even though the rules imply that you would only be using that activation during assaults.

I also just realized that gretchin can't use the plank

grendel083 wrote:It can't be ignored either. If this piece of wargear allowed a true assault it would say "allows a model to assault", but the wording clearly shows this isn't a true assault.

Of course it's not a true assault. A true assault would require the model to leave the vehicle and move into base contact with the vehicle it charges. The intention of this part of the rule is obviously allowing furious charge and the extra attack during your turn. Phil Kelly most likely didn't think about the possibility of striking vehicles during your opponents turn, if the rule even existed at that time. I don't blame him, many people don't know that rule, even for disembarked models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:

Icemyn wrote: Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.

Counter-Attack most certainly does not allow you to be "as if assaulting". They get +1 assault bonus to their attacks (the same as assaulting). The USR states that it's only the bonus attack that is 'as if they too had assaulted'. It's a big difference otherwise things like Furious Charge could be used with it (this is addessed in the SW FAQ).

Even if you completely ignore the 'as if' disembarked and charching[assaulting] can only happen in your own turn (unless specified otherwise).

By that logic a winged daemon prince or teleporting dreadnight may not move as if they were jump infantry, because they are not jump infantry. Boarding plank does specify otherwise, because orks can make attacks in both assault phases, which is the only requirement for the plank to be used.

Jidmah wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

Icemyn wrote: Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.

Counter-Attack most certainly does not allow you to be "as if assaulting". They get +1 assault bonus to their attacks (the same as assaulting). The USR states that it's only the bonus attack that is 'as if they too had assaulted'. It's a big difference otherwise things like Furious Charge could be used with it (this is addessed in the SW FAQ).

Even if you completely ignore the 'as if' disembarked and charching[assaulting] can only happen in your own turn (unless specified otherwise).

By that logic a winged daemon prince or teleporting dreadnight may not move as if they were jump infantry, because they are not jump infantry. Boarding plank does specify otherwise, because orks can make attacks in both assault phases, which is the only requirement for the plank to be used.

Icemyn wrote:

beigeknight wrote:
You can't say that it is an assault and it isn't an assault to your liking. If it's "as if assaulting" the Ork attacking would get the furious charge bonus as if it was assaulting. You can't get this in the opponents assault phase. Seems to me that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase. Besides, you're not locked in combat with a vehicle during your opponents assault phase, so you wouldn't be able to make attacks against it in their assault phase(excluding walkers, which even have a FAQ indicating that I feel is indictive of this case), as that's something that happens in CC. There is no base contact since the model isn't technically on the board.

As an Ork player I wish this could happen as it's pretty Orky. The rules are kinda fuzzy but there's enough there to say that you can't be "as if assaulting" in your opponents assault phase.

There is a Universal Special rule that shows up in Codex:Space Wolves quite a bit. Its called Counter-Attack and it most certainly allows you to be "as if assaulting" in the opponents turn.
Again as I have said a couple of times before the "as if" line is only there to tell you how many attacks you get not to impart timing restrictions.

Counter-Attack is triggered when a unit with the Counter-Attack USR is assaulted. The rules for Counter-Attack are pretty specific when this happens and gives permission to do so. For the Boarding Plank, there is no such permission to make attacks in the opponents assault phase. So I stand corrected above but I still think the rules are pretty clear regarding the Boarding Plank.

grendel083 wrote:Actually by that logic they would move just like jump infantry. Which they do.

And I'm sorry the rest of the post was more wishful thinking than anything solid rules-wise.

You say it's not a true assault, but then you treat is as a true assault, leaving an Ork locked in combat. We're not told when we can use this piece of wargear, so assuming it can be used at all we have to look at the 'as if disembarked and charging' not just as how we can attack, but when. We can't use that as justification to allow its use in Orks turn, then ignore it in order to use it in an opponents. It's a broken piece of wargear that by RAW does nothing, it takes a little bit of rules-abuse to use it at all, using it in an opponents turn is beyond abuse.

To me it's intent is clearly for the Orks turn only. In 4th edition (when the codex was written) the intent was clearer still.

So your counter-argument is "sorry that's wishful thinking" and "it's clear to me"?

You have not posted a single argument or rule, just statements without backup and opinion. You entire post is a violation of the Tenets of YMDC and thus worthless to the discussion.

Jidmah wrote:So your counter-argument is "sorry that's wishful thinking" and "it's clear to me"?

You have not posted a single argument or rule, just statements without backup and opinion. You entire post is a violation of the Tenets of YMDC and thus worthless to the discussion.

There wasn't a single rule in your arguement either. What rule would you like that hasn't already been posted?
The rules that says a boarding plank can be used in your opponents turn? It doesn't exist.
Or maybe the rules that show the Boarding Plank can't be used at all? They're in the book and have been posted before.
You can't post rules on a broken piece of wargear that requires loose interpritation to even be used. Your opponent is being generous if they let you use it at all.

O.o why is this being argued?

Can I attack your stuff in on my turn...no

Just no, you cannot make your attacks on your opponents turn because you are not allowed to do anything on your opponents turn.

The only time you can do anything is in response, as in CC you make a response to being charged or locked in combat.

Else you would be able to make your attacks during your movement phase or your shooting phase, which you can't. Also you cannot make attacks in an opponents assault phase. In your assault phase you may declare assaults same as their assault phase after combat is resolved. You are not in close combat with the tank you cannot activate your boarding plank war gear and you may not make attacks.

This shouldn't even be argued... at all.

Can you use it in your movement phase NO, because you're only allowed to move

Can you use it during your shooting phase NO, because you are only allowed to shoot.

Can you use it during your assault phase YES because you may declare charges and the boarding plank allows you to make the attack as a charge.

Can you use it during any of your opponents phases NO, because you aren't allowed to activate anything or very few specifically stated things.

their assault phase? NO, why because they can only declare assaults not you, when combat is resolved your units are not in combat they are embarked.


grrr.... >_<

Trance_Phoenix wrote:O.o why is this being argued?

Can I attack your stuff in on my turn...no

Just no, you cannot make your attacks on your opponents turn because you are not allowed to do anything on your opponents turn.

The only time you can do anything is in response, as in CC you make a response to being charged or locked in combat.

Else you would be able to make your attacks during your movement phase or your shooting phase, which you can't. Also you cannot make attacks in an opponents assault phase. In your assault phase you may declare assaults same as their assault phase after combat is resolved. You are not in close combat with the tank you cannot activate your boarding plank war gear and you may not make attacks.

This shouldn't even be argued... at all.

Can you use it in your movement phase NO, because you're only allowed to move

Can you use it during your shooting phase NO, because you are only allowed to shoot.

Can you use it during your assault phase YES because you may declare charges and the boarding plank allows you to make the attack as a charge.

Can you use it during any of your opponents phases NO, because you aren't allowed to activate anything or very few specifically stated things.

their assault phase? NO, why because they can only declare assaults not you, when combat is resolved your units are not in combat they are embarked.


grrr.... >_<

I think you are upset because you think this is how we would play it. Which isn't the case this is strictly a rules forum where we argue the rules. Your post while it shows how you would play it and feel about the situation has no basis in the rules.

Please feel free to post again with relevant rules quotes to support your argument.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Can I attack your stuff in on my turn...no

Just no, you cannot make your attacks on your opponents turn because you are not allowed to do anything on your opponents turn.

Yes you can, but that does not matter. You can not be assaulting on your opponent's turn. You regularly attack enemy models in base contact even if not assaulting though.

editing to add:
The easiest way to think of it, I have found, is to consider it the enemey fighting a battle with you though. Which is to say there is never a time for the boarding plank, in this instance to apply.

If an ork is in base with an immobilized vehicle on the vehicles turn, the ork can attack in the assault phase because the vehicle's player has to deal with that combat in the assault phase. The ork is NOT assaulting, regardless.

If an ork is not in base with anything, it never is involved in a CC to get a turn to swing regardless.

From what I have seen, rules that let you act in your opponent's phase actually say so.

kirsanth wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Can I attack your stuff in on my turn...no

Just no, you cannot make your attacks on your opponents turn because you are not allowed to do anything on your opponents turn.

Yes you can, but that does not matter. You can not be assaulting on your opponent's turn. You regularly attack enemy models in base contact even if not assaulting though.

As shown by Counter-Attack you can most certainly be "as if assaulting" on your opponents turn. Which is all the Boarding plank requires, once you get past the whole not working at all bit.

Edit: To your edit:From what I have seen, rules that let you act in your opponent's phase actually say so.

I certainly agree with this statement as a generalization, but don't know that it is completely true for all cases.

Icemyn wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Can I attack your stuff in on my turn...no

Just no, you cannot make your attacks on your opponents turn because you are not allowed to do anything on your opponents turn.

Yes you can, but that does not matter. You can not be assaulting on your opponent's turn. You regularly attack enemy models in base contact even if not assaulting though.

As shown by Counter-Attack you can most certainly be "as if assaulting" on your opponents turn. Which is all the Boarding plank requires, once you get past the whole not working at all bit.

No no no

Counter attack give you a bonus attack the same 'as if assaulting'. The 'as if assaulting' applies to the bonus attack only, and in no other way. You are most definatly not assaulting. It's been taken out of context many times, and cleared up in many FAQ's.

But as an edit to the edit of the edit, yes i agree you need permission to act in an opponents turn.

Alright a relevant rule, each phase decides what actions you can take. On a movement phase you move, shooting phase you attack, assault phase you assault. This is a rule.

Unless stated otherwise you do not take actions outside of the phase they are allowed in. ----rule----

During your opponents turn you may not take actions. Unless once again a rule states specifically you may take that action outside of it's phase. ---another one----

When you have a boarding plank you cannot make the attack on your movement phase because you can only move ----This is an example of a rule----

When you have a boarding plank on your opponents assault phase you cannot declare assaults ----this is a rule you cannot declare an assault on your opponents turn----

Combat is then resolved however your unit is embarked and cannot make his close combat attacks as you may not activate war gear, declare shooting, assault, ect. on your opponents turn unless specifically stated.

You do not get the attacks because you (as stated in the rules) cannot activate any options allowing you to use the boarding plank rule in your opponents turn.

yes you are within 2" and yes they have not moved

BUT ----rule coming up----

You cannot declare using it, so no dice.

I hope i had enough rules to post in the rules section.

grendel083 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Can I attack your stuff in on my turn...no

Just no, you cannot make your attacks on your opponents turn because you are not allowed to do anything on your opponents turn.

Yes you can, but that does not matter. You can not be assaulting on your opponent's turn. You regularly attack enemy models in base contact even if not assaulting though.

As shown by Counter-Attack you can most certainly be "as if assaulting" on your opponents turn. Which is all the Boarding plank requires, once you get past the whole not working at all bit.

No no no

Counter attack give you a bonus attack the same 'as if assaulting'. The 'as if assaulting' applies to the bonus attack only, and in no other way. You are most definatly not assaulting. It's been taken out of context many times, and cleared up in many FAQ's.

But as an edit to the edit of the edit, yes i agree you need permission to act in an opponents turn.

I dont know why you state "no no no" it seems to me that we agree .

@Trance Phoenix: If you could read the whole thread that would be ideal so we don't rehash arguments already made. Boarding Plank does not allow you to assault on the opponents phase it allows you to make attacks "as if" you are disembarked and "assaulting"(charging *cough*cough*). Note that at no time are you actually disembarking or launching an assault.

I actually did thank you, i was stating it for example purposes.

You cannot declare the attack, the form of turns and phases I believe make the ruling of no you cannot use the boarding plank on their turn.

You may meet all requirements and ignoring all as if's or as debates there is simply no option for activating this on your opponents turn as you are bound to the rules of their phase and the turn structure.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:I actually did thank you, i was stating it for example purposes.

You cannot declare the attack, the form of turns and phases I believe make the ruling of no you cannot use the boarding plank on their turn.

You may meet all requirements and ignoring all as if's or as debates there is simply no option for activating this on your opponents turn as you are bound to the rules of their phase and the turn structure.

Unfortunately you are creating restrictions that do not exist there is no rule that states that you cannot activate wargear during your opponents turn. If you think I'm wrong find a quote in the BRB and reference it here, I'll wait.

The Boarding plank only asks if you are able to make CC attacks. If you are it describes how you make them "as if disembarked and charging".
The BP is the only permission you need to be able to use it during your opponents turn, assuming that you believe that it works at all.
This is akin to Flickerfields where it is obvious how they are intended to work, but RAW without the latest FAQ they did nothing. Note that you didn't see people saying you could never use them, everyone just understood the intention.

Icemyn wrote:Unfortunately you are creating restrictions that do not exist there is no rule that states that you cannot activate wargear during your opponents turn. If you think I'm wrong find a quote in the BRB and reference it here, I'll wait.

The permissive ruleset tells us that you need permission to do something. (It doesn't say I can't does not work).

Boarding planks do not give any allowance to be used in your opponents turn.

Icemyn wrote:Unfortunately you are creating restrictions that do not exist there is no rule that states that you cannot activate wargear during your opponents turn. If you think I'm wrong find a quote in the BRB and reference it here, I'll wait.

While you are waiting, can you please post a rule that says you ARE allowed to activate wargear?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Boarding Plank

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

Again here is the BP's actual rules.
Can you make CC attacks on your opponents turn? Yes. Permission granted.

If you believe that it can be used on your own turn there is no restriction prevention use on your opponents turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

Icemyn wrote:Unfortunately you are creating restrictions that do not exist there is no rule that states that you cannot activate wargear during your opponents turn. If you think I'm wrong find a quote in the BRB and reference it here, I'll wait.

While you are waiting, can you please post a rule that says you ARE allowed to activate wargear?

Any Armor, CC Weapon, Force Weapons particularly.

I could go on, but I would rather not.

Were does it say in the rule book that you can activate war gear outside of your turn?

most war gear that I know of falls into CC anyway which has it's own rules allowing for you to activate what you want, or the war gear is always active. But in this instance it is not, and with it being the players turn to declare his actions you may not declare your own unless specifically stated otherwise.

The restrictions exist within the structure of the game itself limiting you to the game turns and phases unless another rule trumps it. Since there is nothing stating you may declare actions on their turn you are restricted to not being able to take said action. I don't know of any rules to break this unless they state to break this, even psychic powers specifically state that they may be used on any turn, (but shooting powers are restricted to the shooting phase)


(and I do not advise waiting lol at work lol)

Icemyn wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Boarding Plank

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

Again here is the BP's actual rules.
Can you make CC attacks on your opponents turn? Yes. Permission granted.

If you believe that it can be used on your own turn there is no restriction prevention use on your opponents turn.

It doesn't say you can make CC attacks on your opponents turn. Doesn't say it anywhere in what you quoted. No permission was granted.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Boarding Plank

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

Again here is the BP's actual rules.
Can you make CC attacks on your opponents turn? Yes. Permission granted.

If you believe that it can be used on your own turn there is no restriction prevention use on your opponents turn.

It doesn't say you can make CC attacks on your opponents turn. Doesn't say it anywhere in what you quoted. No permission was granted.

I dont know if we are reading the same quote. Allows a single ork to make CC attacks, allows is literally right there.

The only question is whether or not you believe that you can make CC attacks on your opponents turn.

Icemyn wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Icemyn wrote:Unfortunately you are creating restrictions that do not exist there is no rule that states that you cannot activate wargear during your opponents turn. If you think I'm wrong find a quote in the BRB and reference it here, I'll wait.

While you are waiting, can you please post a rule that says you ARE allowed to activate wargear?

Any Armor, CC Weapon, Force Weapons particularly.

I could go on, but I would rather not.

Those examples have been given specific permission to be used (which is what we're looking for), but again the boarding plank hasn't. A force weapons specific permission doesn't grant general permission to all wargear.

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Boarding Plank

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

Again here is the BP's actual rules.
Can you make CC attacks on your opponents turn? Yes. Permission granted.

If you believe that it can be used on your own turn there is no restriction prevention use on your opponents turn.

It doesn't say you can make CC attacks on your opponents turn. Doesn't say it anywhere in what you quoted. No permission was granted.

I dont know if we are reading the same quote. Allows a single ork to make CC attacks, allows is literally right there.

But you cannot declare that during your opponents turn, you may make the attacks but not outside the regular structure of the game.

Can you make your attacks yes
can you declare those attacks on another players turn No, because that is the structure of the game.

grendel083 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Icemyn wrote:Unfortunately you are creating restrictions that do not exist there is no rule that states that you cannot activate wargear during your opponents turn. If you think I'm wrong find a quote in the BRB and reference it here, I'll wait.

While you are waiting, can you please post a rule that says you ARE allowed to activate wargear?

Any Armor, CC Weapon, Force Weapons particularly.

I could go on, but I would rather not.

Those examples have been given specific permission to be used (which is what we're looking for), but again the boarding plank hasn't. A force weapons specific permission doesn't grant general permission to all wargear.

And again the BP isnt even given permission to be used during its owners turn. So once you say that you can use it in your own turn what stops you from being allowed to be used in the other players turn?

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Were does it say in the rule book that you can activate war gear outside of your turn?

most war gear that I know of falls into CC anyway which has it's own rules allowing for you to activate what you want, or the war gear is always active. But in this instance it is not, and with it being the players turn to declare his actions you may not declare your own unless specifically stated otherwise.

The restrictions exist within the structure of the game itself limiting you to the game turns and phases unless another rule trumps it. Since there is nothing stating you may declare actions on their turn you are restricted to not being able to take said action. I don't know of any rules to break this unless they state to break this, even psychic powers specifically state that they may be used on any turn, (but shooting powers are restricted to the shooting phase)


(and I do not advise waiting lol at work lol)

Iron halo, is war gear. are you saying that if i shoot a lascannon at a model with the iron halo that the opponent can not use his war gear to make a save?

huh i have been playing 40k wrong all this time

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Boarding Plank

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

Again here is the BP's actual rules.
Can you make CC attacks on your opponents turn? Yes. Permission granted.

If you believe that it can be used on your own turn there is no restriction prevention use on your opponents turn.

It doesn't say you can make CC attacks on your opponents turn. Doesn't say it anywhere in what you quoted. No permission was granted.

I dont know if we are reading the same quote. Allows a single ork to make CC attacks, allows is literally right there.

But you cannot declare that during your opponents turn, you may make the attacks but not outside the regular structure of the game.

Can you make your attacks yes
can you declare those attacks on another players turn No, because that is the structure of the game.

Actual Rules quote please. Because you are literally saying you cannot fight back in CC during another players turn.

Icemyn wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Boarding Plank

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

Again here is the BP's actual rules.
Can you make CC attacks on your opponents turn? Yes. Permission granted.

If you believe that it can be used on your own turn there is no restriction prevention use on your opponents turn.

It doesn't say you can make CC attacks on your opponents turn. Doesn't say it anywhere in what you quoted. No permission was granted.

I dont know if we are reading the same quote. Allows a single ork to make CC attacks, allows is literally right there.

But you cannot declare that during your opponents turn, you may make the attacks but not outside the regular structure of the game.

Can you make your attacks yes
can you declare those attacks on another players turn No, because that is the structure of the game.

Actual Rules quote please. Because you are literally saying you cannot fight back in CC during another players turn.

You are not engaged in combat which is the only time you can attack on your opponents turn. This rule has no specificity to timing which means it has not granted any permission, if anything (assuming we ingore the disembarking and assaulting only able to be done on your turn) is the rule does nothing as it never specifies when it can be used.

Not engaged, no attacks on your opponents turn. You can't disembark and assault on opponents turn. Wargear does not work, nothing says it does.

There also seems to be alot of confusing between making a close combat attack, and an actual round of combat.

You're activating a piece of wargear to make an attack. Just an attack, nothing more. The opponent doesn't fight back, combat results are not determined, no sweeping advances etc.

It's an attack, it's not close combat. If it was close combat you could do it in your opponents turn. It isn't.

Icemyn wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Boarding Plank

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

Again here is the BP's actual rules.
Can you make CC attacks on your opponents turn? Yes. Permission granted.

If you believe that it can be used on your own turn there is no restriction prevention use on your opponents turn.

It doesn't say you can make CC attacks on your opponents turn. Doesn't say it anywhere in what you quoted. No permission was granted.

I dont know if we are reading the same quote. Allows a single ork to make CC attacks, allows is literally right there.

But you cannot declare that during your opponents turn, you may make the attacks but not outside the regular structure of the game.

Can you make your attacks yes
can you declare those attacks on another players turn No, because that is the structure of the game.

Actual Rules quote please. Because you are literally saying you cannot fight back in CC during another players turn.

No i'm not because in the rules combat is resolved by specifically stating "these models" may attack, that is how CC is resolved and is resolved after the assault phase.

For it to work on your opponents turn it would need to say:

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was in BtB contact and engaged in combat with it provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"

If the rule said this, then you would be able to make an argument that you can use it on the opponents assault phase as then the rule is using the combat mechanics for being BtB and engaged in your opponents turn opposed to the mechanics for disembarking and assaulting which si only your turn.

But without specificity of the phase it may be used and 'implying' when it can be used, technically the plank does nothing which is where this argument goes if you try to use it on the opponent's turn.

So we are all finally coming around to what I said on page one. which is this piece of wargear does nothing? Great we all win the internet.

My point these last few pages has been that once you allow it be used at all what keeps you from using it during the opponents turn. The answer is obviously nothing as all the logical leaps that are being made to allow it to work would have to apply during the opponents turn.

Icemyn wrote:So we are all finally coming around to what I said on page one. which is this piece of wargear does nothing? Great we all win the internet.

My point these last few pages has been that once you allow it be used at all what keeps you from using it during the opponents turn. The answer is obviously nothing as all the logical leaps that are being made to allow it to work would have to apply during the opponents turn.

No, the logical leaps do not allow it to be used on the opponents turn. The logical leaps allow it to be used on your turn as that is the only time you may dismebark and assault is on your own turn. Nothing in the rule specifies otherwise or gives permission for the opponents turn as youa re not making simple CC attacks and are not engaged in combat which is required for you to attack on your opponents turn.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:So we are all finally coming around to what I said on page one. which is this piece of wargear does nothing? Great we all win the internet.

My point these last few pages has been that once you allow it be used at all what keeps you from using it during the opponents turn. The answer is obviously nothing as all the logical leaps that are being made to allow it to work would have to apply during the opponents turn.

No, the logical leaps do not allow it to be used on the opponents turn. The logical leaps allow it to be used on your turn as that is the only time you may dismebark and assault is on your own turn. Nothing in the rule specifies otherwise or gives permission for the opponents turn as youa re not making simple CC attacks and are not engaged in combat which is required for you to attack on your opponents turn.

Maybe you missed the part where you are never disembarking or assaulting?

The disembarking bit it is so you can pretend base contact and the assaulting bit is for an extra attack.

grendel083 wrote:There also seems to be alot of confusing between making a close combat attack, and an actual round of combat.

You're activating a piece of wargear to make an attack. Just an attack, nothing more. The opponent doesn't fight back, combat results are not determined, no sweeping advances etc.

It's an attack, it's not close combat. If it was close combat you could do it in your opponents turn. It isn't.

thank you

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:So we are all finally coming around to what I said on page one. which is this piece of wargear does nothing? Great we all win the internet.

My point these last few pages has been that once you allow it be used at all what keeps you from using it during the opponents turn. The answer is obviously nothing as all the logical leaps that are being made to allow it to work would have to apply during the opponents turn.

No, the logical leaps do not allow it to be used on the opponents turn. The logical leaps allow it to be used on your turn as that is the only time you may dismebark and assault is on your own turn. Nothing in the rule specifies otherwise or gives permission for the opponents turn as youa re not making simple CC attacks and are not engaged in combat which is required for you to attack on your opponents turn.

Maybe you missed the part where you are never disembarking or assaulting?

Maybe you missed the part where you are not engaged in CC on your opponents turn and nothing in the rule allows you to make the attacks in any phase at all? The only way the rule works is if you follow the rules for disembarking and assaulting which includes the phase in which you may do those actions which is your own assault phase.

If you attemt to argue absurd unsupportable RAI then the RAW is the rule does nothing. The GW FAQ suggest very functional RAI which everyone plays and makes your interpretation wrong and have zero actual support.

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:So we are all finally coming around to what I said on page one. which is this piece of wargear does nothing? Great we all win the internet.

My point these last few pages has been that once you allow it be used at all what keeps you from using it during the opponents turn. The answer is obviously nothing as all the logical leaps that are being made to allow it to work would have to apply during the opponents turn.

No, the logical leaps do not allow it to be used on the opponents turn. The logical leaps allow it to be used on your turn as that is the only time you may dismebark and assault is on your own turn. Nothing in the rule specifies otherwise or gives permission for the opponents turn as youa re not making simple CC attacks and are not engaged in combat which is required for you to attack on your opponents turn.

Maybe you missed the part where you are never disembarking or assaulting?

The disembarking bit it is so you can pretend base contact and the assaulting bit is for an extra attack.

That still doesn't change the fact the wargear is allowing you to make an attack, not fight a round of close combat. Close combat would carry on into an opponents turn, activating an attack through wargear doesn't.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Were does it say in the rule book that you can activate war gear outside of your turn?

most war gear that I know of falls into CC anyway which has it's own rules allowing for you to activate what you want, or the war gear is always active. But in this instance it is not, and with it being the players turn to declare his actions you may not declare your own unless specifically stated otherwise.

The restrictions exist within the structure of the game itself limiting you to the game turns and phases unless another rule trumps it. Since there is nothing stating you may declare actions on their turn you are restricted to not being able to take said action. I don't know of any rules to break this unless they state to break this, even psychic powers specifically state that they may be used on any turn, (but shooting powers are restricted to the shooting phase)


(and I do not advise waiting lol at work lol)

Iron halo, is war gear. are you saying that if i shoot a lascannon at a model with the iron halo that the opponent can not use his war gear to make a save?

huh i have been playing 40k wrong all this time

You don't activate Iron halo, it has an effect that allows you to make a save. If the boarding plank stated any vehicle within 2" takes the number of attacks equal to one embarked ork and useing the same profile..then yes it would work.

You don't "activate" Boarding planks either they have an effect which allow you to make CC attacks.

@nkelsh: Your first line in your first paragraph is an agreement with me, worded in a way to sound like an epiphany of yours or that I somehow disagree.

And your second paragraph, idk what you are trying to say truthfully. Looks like more of the same RAW = Broken, RAI = Works the way I say it does.

@ the 3 of you: Once you make the logical leap that allows you to use this wargear on your own turn, what is it that stops you from using it on your opponents turn. And please stop saying anything to do with disembarking or assaulting as you are not required to do either of those things.

On your own turn you are allowed to declare assaults.

In your opponent's turn you are only allowed to continue them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Linking Counter-attack is a lark, btw.

It DOES have a trigger that can only happen on the opponent's turn.

kirsanth wrote:On your own turn you are allowed to declare assaults.

In your opponent's turn you are only allowed to continue them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Linking Counter-attack is a lark, btw.

It DOES have a trigger that can only happen on the opponent's turn.

No it is not lark it is the same thing. You are not actually assaulting you are only acting as if assaulting. Unless you think the as if disembarking is actual disembarking.

You are given permission to do so with counter attack. In the actual rules.

That is why it is a lark.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Were does it say in the rule book that you can activate war gear outside of your turn?

most war gear that I know of falls into CC anyway which has it's own rules allowing for you to activate what you want, or the war gear is always active. But in this instance it is not, and with it being the players turn to declare his actions you may not declare your own unless specifically stated otherwise.

The restrictions exist within the structure of the game itself limiting you to the game turns and phases unless another rule trumps it. Since there is nothing stating you may declare actions on their turn you are restricted to not being able to take said action. I don't know of any rules to break this unless they state to break this, even psychic powers specifically state that they may be used on any turn, (but shooting powers are restricted to the shooting phase)


(and I do not advise waiting lol at work lol)

Iron halo, is war gear. are you saying that if i shoot a lascannon at a model with the iron halo that the opponent can not use his war gear to make a save?

huh i have been playing 40k wrong all this time

You don't activate Iron halo, it has an effect that allows you to make a save. If the boarding plank stated any vehicle within 2" takes the number of attacks equal to one embarked ork and useing the same profile..then yes it would work.

well if i have a kff does that wargear cease to function on the opponents turn also?

kirsanth wrote:You are given permission to do so with counter attack. In the actual rules.

That is why it is a lark.

Now you lost me so you agree that you are not actually assaulting, but that you are given a trigger
which allows you to act "as if assaulting".
And Boarding plank doesnt have any trigger RAW so you can't use it.
Is that your position?

Then again I say to you, there is no trigger to allow you to use BP on your turn much less theirs and the BP does nothing. But, once you allow it to be used what stops it from being used on the opponents turn. As shown by CA you can most certainly be "as if assaulting" on the opponents turn.

any Special CC weapon do those also cease to function?

thought not.

No. I am saying you have permission to assault in your turn. The boarding plank allows the assault to be declared along side those rules because there is literally no other way to use it.

You never have permission to assault in the opponent's phase - which is what that wargear modifies, not adds.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:any Special CC weapon do those also cease to function?

thought not.

No, because you have permission to use them in close combat, and permission to perform close combat attacks during your opponents assault phase if he has a unit involved in a combat with yours.

Are you going to come up with a valid example? Thought not.

kirsanth wrote:No. I am saying you have permission to assault in your turn. The boarding plank allows the assault to be declared along side those rules because there is literally no other way to use it.

You never have permission to assault in the opponent's phase - which is what that wargear modifies, not adds.

You do have permission to assault in your turn, but that doesnt matter as the BP does not require it. The only requirement is that you be within 2" of a vehicle that didnt move faster than cruising speed and that you have an ork on board. Those are the only 2 requirements. The disembarked and charging(not assaulting) is not a requirement only a description of how to carry out the attacks.

kirsanth wrote:No. I am saying you have permission to assault in your turn. The boarding plank allows the assault to be declared along side those rules because there is literally no other way to use it.

You never have permission to assault in the opponent's phase - which is what that wargear modifies, not adds.

Agree with this. Also again the counter-attack has been taken out of context. At no point ever does counter-attack give you permission to be 'as if assaulting'. You get a bonus attack the same as if you assaulted. There is a huge difference. But what it does show is an example of an ability being used in an opponents turn because it grants specific permission.

Icemyn wrote: The only requirement is that you be within 2" of a vehicle that didnt move faster than cruising speed and that you have an ork on board. Those are the only additional 2 requirements

Fixed, since you missed my point. Apparently deliberate, but there it is anyway.

Icemyn wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No. I am saying you have permission to assault in your turn. The boarding plank allows the assault to be declared along side those rules because there is literally no other way to use it.

You never have permission to assault in the opponent's phase - which is what that wargear modifies, not adds.

You do have permission to assault in your turn, but that doesnt matter as the BP does not require it. The only requirement is that you be within 2" of a vehicle that didnt move faster than cruising speed and that you have an ork on board. Those are the only 2 requirements. The disembarked and charging(not assaulting) is not a requirement only a description of how to carry out the attacks.

Again it's an attack. You're given permission to have an attack only. Not the rest of close combat, not being locked in, and not fighting back in an opponents turn. Just the attack.

grendel083 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No. I am saying you have permission to assault in your turn. The boarding plank allows the assault to be declared along side those rules because there is literally no other way to use it.

You never have permission to assault in the opponent's phase - which is what that wargear modifies, not adds.

Agree with this. Also again the counter-attack has been taken out of context. At no point ever does counter-attack give you permission to be 'as if assaulting'. You get a bonus attack the same as if you assaulted. There is a huge difference. But what it does show is an example of an ability being used in an opponents turn because it grants specific permission.

The trigger for it is the opponent assaulting you. Which is why it is a lark.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Were does it say in the rule book that you can activate war gear outside of your turn?

most war gear that I know of falls into CC anyway which has it's own rules allowing for you to activate what you want, or the war gear is always active. But in this instance it is not, and with it being the players turn to declare his actions you may not declare your own unless specifically stated otherwise.

The restrictions exist within the structure of the game itself limiting you to the game turns and phases unless another rule trumps it. Since there is nothing stating you may declare actions on their turn you are restricted to not being able to take said action. I don't know of any rules to break this unless they state to break this, even psychic powers specifically state that they may be used on any turn, (but shooting powers are restricted to the shooting phase)


(and I do not advise waiting lol at work lol)

Iron halo, is war gear. are you saying that if i shoot a lascannon at a model with the iron halo that the opponent can not use his war gear to make a save?

huh i have been playing 40k wrong all this time

You don't activate Iron halo, it has an effect that allows you to make a save. If the boarding plank stated any vehicle within 2" takes the number of attacks equal to one embarked ork and useing the same profile..then yes it would work.

well if i have a kff does that wargear cease to function on the opponents turn also?

No because the kff is an always active war gear granting a cover save to units, saves follow their own rules.
any more stupid questions?

how about a zoenthropes toxic cloud? same answer, and for being assaulted has a specific rule allowing it to take effect.

You cannot do something on your opponents turn unless specifically stated, what can you do on your opponents turn that is not specifically stated.

CC attacks are, saves are, psychic attacks are.

You don't get to do things on your opponents turn unless otherwise stated, you can make saves, activate some psychic powers, resolve CC. You cannot move, make attacks or declare actions.

A better way to explain is this

kff grants these units a cover save
when using kff
are my units in range? YES
may I make a save during this phase?YES
May i use the save from the kff?YES

boarding plank allows you to make the attacks for a model as if it were charging if within 2" and niether vehicle has moved more than 12"

Am I within 2" YES
Has either vehicle moved 12" NO
Can I make an attack? "No it is not my phase and combat is not being resolved as I am embarked"

grendel083 wrote:[ Also again the counter-attack has been taken out of context. At no point ever does counter-attack give you permission to be 'as if assaulting'. .

Actually that is exactly what it does "exactly as if they too had assaulted". At one point GW FAQ allowed Space Wolves to have Furious charge and all attack bonuses associated with assaulting. It was only in a later FAQ that this was retracted and the FC bonus was taken away. Obviously that isnt the way it is now but they are treated as if assaulting none the less, they just don't benefit fully for doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

grendel083 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:No. I am saying you have permission to assault in your turn. The boarding plank allows the assault to be declared along side those rules because there is literally no other way to use it.

You never have permission to assault in the opponent's phase - which is what that wargear modifies, not adds.

Agree with this. Also again the counter-attack has been taken out of context. At no point ever does counter-attack give you permission to be 'as if assaulting'. You get a bonus attack the same as if you assaulted. There is a huge difference. But what it does show is an example of an ability being used in an opponents turn because it grants specific permission.

The trigger for it is the opponent assaulting you. Which is why it is a lark.

And the Trigger for BP's as if assaulting is using the BP. Both are triggered as if assaultings. I truly do not understand why you believe it is "lark". Neither is actual assaulting.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Were does it say in the rule book that you can activate war gear outside of your turn?

most war gear that I know of falls into CC anyway which has it's own rules allowing for you to activate what you want, or the war gear is always active. But in this instance it is not, and with it being the players turn to declare his actions you may not declare your own unless specifically stated otherwise.

The restrictions exist within the structure of the game itself limiting you to the game turns and phases unless another rule trumps it. Since there is nothing stating you may declare actions on their turn you are restricted to not being able to take said action. I don't know of any rules to break this unless they state to break this, even psychic powers specifically state that they may be used on any turn, (but shooting powers are restricted to the shooting phase)


(and I do not advise waiting lol at work lol)

Iron halo, is war gear. are you saying that if i shoot a lascannon at a model with the iron halo that the opponent can not use his war gear to make a save?

huh i have been playing 40k wrong all this time

You don't activate Iron halo, it has an effect that allows you to make a save. If the boarding plank stated any vehicle within 2" takes the number of attacks equal to one embarked ork and useing the same profile..then yes it would work.

well if i have a kff does that wargear cease to function on the opponents turn also?

No because the kff is an always active war gear granting a cover save to units, saves follow their own rules.
any more stupid questions?

how about a zoenthropes toxic cloud? same answer, and for being assaulted has a specific rule allowing it to take effect.

You cannot do something on your opponents turn unless specifically stated, what can you do on your opponents turn that is not specifically stated.

CC attacks are, saves are, psychic attacks are.

You don't get to do things on your opponents turn unless otherwise stated, you can make saves, activate some psychic powers, resolve CC. You cannot move, make attacks or declare actions.

really?

so i cant use my wrecking ball either huh? o wait i most certainly can

here is some verbatim.

"orks love demolition almost as much as they love war on the battlefield, ork wagon crews delight in smashing great spiked "wreckin' balls" into enemy vehicles and infantry. A vehicle with a wreckin' ball causes a strength 9 hit upon one unengaged enemy unit within 2" of the wreckin' ball at the beginning of the assault phase on the roll of a 4+. the vehicle may use not use its wreckin' ball if it has moved more than 12" that turn."

yes it really does say "may use not use..."

this clearly defines assault phase, so i can clearly use it on your turn.
now if there was a BRB rule saying i could not use wargear in an opponets turn then i could not.
find me that rule.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:
Am I within 2" YES
Has either vehicle moved 12" NO
Can I make an attack? "No it is not my phase and combat is not being resolved as I am embarked"

And being embarked does not matter as BP states "as if disembarked". Not being your phase is not an issue as permission being granted to use it during your own turn would allow permission during theirs.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:Were does it say in the rule book that you can activate war gear outside of your turn?

most war gear that I know of falls into CC anyway which has it's own rules allowing for you to activate what you want, or the war gear is always active. But in this instance it is not, and with it being the players turn to declare his actions you may not declare your own unless specifically stated otherwise.

The restrictions exist within the structure of the game itself limiting you to the game turns and phases unless another rule trumps it. Since there is nothing stating you may declare actions on their turn you are restricted to not being able to take said action. I don't know of any rules to break this unless they state to break this, even psychic powers specifically state that they may be used on any turn, (but shooting powers are restricted to the shooting phase)


(and I do not advise waiting lol at work lol)

Iron halo, is war gear. are you saying that if i shoot a lascannon at a model with the iron halo that the opponent can not use his war gear to make a save?

huh i have been playing 40k wrong all this time

You don't activate Iron halo, it has an effect that allows you to make a save. If the boarding plank stated any vehicle within 2" takes the number of attacks equal to one embarked ork and useing the same profile..then yes it would work.

well if i have a kff does that wargear cease to function on the opponents turn also?

No because the kff is an always active war gear granting a cover save to units, saves follow their own rules.
any more stupid questions?

how about a zoenthropes toxic cloud? same answer, and for being assaulted has a specific rule allowing it to take effect.

You cannot do something on your opponents turn unless specifically stated, what can you do on your opponents turn that is not specifically stated.

CC attacks are, saves are, psychic attacks are.

You don't get to do things on your opponents turn unless otherwise stated, you can make saves, activate some psychic powers, resolve CC. You cannot move, make attacks or declare actions.

really?

so i cant use my wrecking ball either huh? o wait i most certainly can

here is some verbatim.

"orks love demolition almost as much as they love war on the battlefield, ork wagon crews delight in smashing great spiked "wreckin' balls" into enemy vehicles and infantry. A vehicle with a wreckin' ball causes a strength 9 hit upon one unengaged enemy unit within 2" of the wreckin' ball at the beginning of the assault phase on the roll of a 4+. the vehicle may use not use its wreckin' ball if it has moved more than 12" that turn."

yes it really does say "may use not use..."

this clearly defines assault phase, so i can clearly use it on your turn.
now if there was a BRB rule saying i could not use wargear in an opponets turn then i could not.
find me that rule.

You do not have an assault phase on their turn. They have an assault phase.

Player 1 turn, turn is broken into phases
Player 2 turn turn is broken into phases
end of round

If the players both took actions on the same turn as in movement phase everyone moves, and assault phase everyone may assault you may be able to, but you cannot because you do not have an assault phase on their turn.

If this was not the case in a 4 or 5 player free for all it would allow for multiple attacks against one unit on each of thier turns.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:
You do not have an assault phase on their turn. They have an assault phase.

Player 1 turn, turn is broken into phases
Player 2 turn turn is broken into phases
end of round

If the players both took actions on the same turn as in movement phase everyone moves, and assault phase everyone may assault you may be able to, but you cannot because you do not have an assault phase on their turn.

I hope you are just trolling at this point because that is all that makes sense.
So Empyrean Brain Mines don't work when you are charged?
Mindshackle Scarabs doesn't work on the opponents turn?
Every other piece of wargear that references the Assault Phase only works on your own?
Really?

Well if you want to treat it as disembarked and fighting a round of combat, then the oponent can fight back, potentialy kill the Nob and procede to destroy the mob and their truck in a sweeping advance. No?

The wargear allows for an attack, not the rest of close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Icemyn wrote:I hope you are just trolling at this point because that is all that makes sense.
So Empyrean Brain Mines don't work when you are charged?
Mindshackle Scarabs doesn't work on the opponents turn?
Every other piece of wargear that references the Assault Phase only works on your own?
Really?

You're still giveing examples of things that have been given speciffic permission. Where is the boarding planks speciffic permission?

Icemyn wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:
You do not have an assault phase on their turn. They have an assault phase.

Player 1 turn, turn is broken into phases
Player 2 turn turn is broken into phases
end of round

If the players both took actions on the same turn as in movement phase everyone moves, and assault phase everyone may assault you may be able to, but you cannot because you do not have an assault phase on their turn.

I hope you are just trolling at this point because that is all that makes sense.
So Empyrean Brain Mines don't work when you are charged?
Mindshackle Scarabs doesn't work on the opponents turn?
Every other piece of wargear that references the Assault Phase only works on your own?
Really?

Each of those I bet would specify a situation or rule allowing them to be used, such as close combat or spefic instances such as the opponents turn. I have played this way for years against multiple armies and never once was a debate or a power not usable.

Such as tau fletchette discharges have a specific rules set stating they can deal a wound on a 4+ to an attacking enemy model. This is a specific rule that states when it can be used outside of basic turn structure.

Trance_Phoenix wrote:You do not have an assault phase on their turn. They have an assault phase.

Player 1 turn, turn is broken into phases
Player 2 turn turn is broken into phases
end of round

If the players both took actions on the same turn as in movement phase everyone moves, and assault phase everyone may assault you may be able to, but you cannot because you do not have an assault phase on their turn.

If this was not the case in a 4 or 5 player free for all it would allow for multiple attacks against one unit on each of thier turns.

this game was designed for 1v1 any team game that your are describing requires special rules to be played or things to be out of sequence and so on.

grendel083 wrote:Well if you want to treat it as disembarked and fighting a round of combat, then the oponent can fight back, potentialy kill the Nob and procede to destroy the mob and their truck in a sweeping advance. No?

The wargear allows for an attack, not the rest of close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Icemyn wrote:I hope you are just trolling at this point because that is all that makes sense.
So Empyrean Brain Mines don't work when you are charged?
Mindshackle Scarabs doesn't work on the opponents turn?
Every other piece of wargear that references the Assault Phase only works on your own?
Really?

You're still giveing examples of things that have been given speciffic permission. Where is the boarding planks speciffic permission?

Grendel I wasn't talking about specific permission I was talking about wargear used in opponents assault phase. Just an FYI.
Also the wargear you are looking for would be Wrecking Ball as Godlyness pointed out. It only states Assault Phase not whose no timing for when during the Assault phase just that it is allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:
You do not have an assault phase on their turn. They have an assault phase.

Player 1 turn, turn is broken into phases
Player 2 turn turn is broken into phases
end of round

If the players both took actions on the same turn as in movement phase everyone moves, and assault phase everyone may assault you may be able to, but you cannot because you do not have an assault phase on their turn.

I hope you are just trolling at this point because that is all that makes sense.
So Empyrean Brain Mines don't work when you are charged?
Mindshackle Scarabs doesn't work on the opponents turn?
Every other piece of wargear that references the Assault Phase only works on your own?
Really?

Each of those I bet would specify a situation or rule allowing them to be used, such as close combat or spefic instances such as the opponents turn. I have played this way for years against multiple armies and never once was a debate or a power not usable.

Such as tau fletchette discharges have a specific rules set stating they can deal a wound on a 4+ to an attacking enemy model. This is a specific rule that states when it can be used outside of basic turn structure.

Nope they just say assault phase after moves have been made. Doesn't say opponents.

grendel083 wrote:Well if you want to treat it as disembarked and fighting a round of combat, then the oponent can fight back, potentialy kill the Nob and procede to destroy the mob and their truck in a sweeping advance. No?

The wargear allows for an attack, not the rest of close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Icemyn wrote:I hope you are just trolling at this point because that is all that makes sense.
So Empyrean Brain Mines don't work when you are charged?
Mindshackle Scarabs doesn't work on the opponents turn?
Every other piece of wargear that references the Assault Phase only works on your own?
Really?

You're still giveing examples of things that have been given speciffic permission. Where is the boarding planks speciffic permission?

its been stated that no Assaults are launched and the embarked ork is not "Stuck in" and the only vehicle that would be able to attack back would be a Walker. BUT there is a FAQ that clarifies that. it was posted earlier

Icemyn wrote:

grendel083 wrote:Well if you want to treat it as disembarked and fighting a round of combat, then the oponent can fight back, potentialy kill the Nob and procede to destroy the mob and their truck in a sweeping advance. No?

The wargear allows for an attack, not the rest of close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Icemyn wrote:I hope you are just trolling at this point because that is all that makes sense.
So Empyrean Brain Mines don't work when you are charged?
Mindshackle Scarabs doesn't work on the opponents turn?
Every other piece of wargear that references the Assault Phase only works on your own?
Really?

You're still giveing examples of things that have been given speciffic permission. Where is the boarding planks speciffic permission?

Grendel I wasn't talking about specific permission I was talking about wargear used in opponents assault phase. Just an FYI.
Also the wargear you are looking for would be Wrecking Ball as Godlyness pointed out. It only states Assault Phase not whose no timing for when during the Assault phase just that it is allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

Trance_Phoenix wrote:
You do not have an assault phase on their turn. They have an assault phase.

Player 1 turn, turn is broken into phases
Player 2 turn turn is broken into phases
end of round

If the players both took actions on the same turn as in movement phase everyone moves, and assault phase everyone may assault you may be able to, but you cannot because you do not have an assault phase on their turn.

I hope you are just trolling at this point because that is all that makes sense.
So Empyrean Brain Mines don't work when you are charged?
Mindshackle Scarabs doesn't work on the opponents turn?
Every other piece of wargear that references the Assault Phase only works on your own?
Really?

Each of those I bet would specify a situation or rule allowing them to be used, such as close combat or spefic instances such as the opponents turn. I have played this way for years against multiple armies and never once was a debate or a power not usable.

Such as tau fletchette discharges have a specific rules set stating they can deal a wound on a 4+ to an attacking enemy model. This is a specific rule that states when it can be used outside of basic turn structure.

Nope they just say assault phase after moves have been made. Doesn't say opponents.

In which case it states how to use it and what you can do with it. For the boarding plank you may there is no such rule stating that you make an attack on your opponents turn.

Does a fletchette discharged then allow for them to hit your units in their assault phase?

You look at what phase, if it is their enemies you may do nothing, but every rule I have ever read will state how to use it in response. Every single one, will state how to use that rule in response if it is not in response and it is not within your turn..then bugger off and wait for your turn.

As does the Wrecking ball which you seem to be up in arms about with this whole player assault phase thing you have created. Only the wrecking ball just says assault phase.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:its been stated that no Assaults are launched and the embarked ork is not "Stuck in" and the only vehicle that would be able to attack back would be a Walker. BUT there is a FAQ that clarifies that. it was posted earlier

Exactly, and yet people continue to then treat it as an assault. An assault comprises of many parts, the hitting bit (the only bit the plank allows you to do) is only part of the assault. So if it's not an assault, why are people trying to carry it on in an opponenets turn like an assault?

It's an attack with a piece of wargear. And no wargear can be used in an opponents turn without specific permission. All the wargear examples so far have been given permission. The Boarding Plank hasn't, and even in your own turn you have to assume you can use it.

Edit: And the Wreckin' Ball, unlike the Boarding plank, does say when it should be used (as does Flechette). Don't know why they're being brought up.

grendel083 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:its been stated that no Assaults are launched and the embarked ork is not "Stuck in" and the only vehicle that would be able to attack back would be a Walker. BUT there is a FAQ that clarifies that. it was posted earlier

Exactly, and yet people continue to then treat it as an assault. An assault comprises of many parts, the hitting bit (the only bit the plank allows you to do) is only part of the assault. So if it's not an assault, why are people trying to carry it on in an opponenets turn like an assault?

It's an attack with a piece of wargear. And no wargear can be used in an opponents turn without specific permission. All the wargear examples so far have been given permission. The Boarding Plank hasn't, and even in your own turn you have to assume you can use it.

Everyone please listen to these words

grendel083 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:its been stated that no Assaults are launched and the embarked ork is not "Stuck in" and the only vehicle that would be able to attack back would be a Walker. BUT there is a FAQ that clarifies that. it was posted earlier

Exactly, and yet people continue to then treat it as an assault. An assault comprises of many parts, the hitting bit (the only bit the plank allows you to do) is only part of the assault. So if it's not an assault, why are people trying to carry it on in an opponenets turn like an assault?

It's an attack with a piece of wargear. And no wargear can be used in an opponents turn without specific permission. All the wargear examples so far have been given permission. The Boarding Plank hasn't, and even in your own turn you have to assume you can use it.

That is exactly my point Grendel, if you can use it during your own turn what stops you from using it in theirs? The answer is nothing. Once you clean up the wording to allow it to be used at all it allows use during the opponents phase.

Corrected wording could look something like this (Speculation at best):

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank can be used during the assault phase and allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and assaulting provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12

I can agree to that.

grendel083 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:its been stated that no Assaults are launched and the embarked ork is not "Stuck in" and the only vehicle that would be able to attack back would be a Walker. BUT there is a FAQ that clarifies that. it was posted earlier

Exactly, and yet people continue to then treat it as an assault. An assault comprises of many parts, the hitting bit (the only bit the plank allows you to do) is only part of the assault. So if it's not an assault, why are people trying to carry it on in an opponents turn like an assault?

It's an attack with a piece of wargear. And no wargear can be used in an opponents turn without specific permission. All the wargear examples so far have been given permission. The Boarding Plank hasn't, and even in your own turn you have to assume you can use it.

Edit: And the Wreckin' Ball, unlike the Boarding plank, does say when it should be used (as does Flechette). Don't know why they're being brought up.

the wrecking ball is being brought up due to the fact some people believe that War gear can only be used on you turn.

the wrecking ball states An Assault phase. never declares whose Assault phase.

by raw i can use it in either assault phase. which breaks this unwritten rule that wargear does not work in opponents turns.

Icemyn wrote:That is exactly my point Grendel, if you can use it during your own turn what stops you from using it in theirs? The answer is nothing. Once you clean up the wording to allow it to be used at all it allows use during the opponents phase.

Corrected wording could look something like this (Speculation at best):

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank can be used during the assault phase and allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and assaulting provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12

Unfortunatly the rules don't work like that. You can't look for something that says 'you can't do that' you have to look for something that says you can. It's the nature of the permissive rules set that this game uses.

Every answer to every question in this game is 'NO'. Unless a rule says 'YES'.
Q. Can I shoot?
A. No. Unless a rules states otherwise (fortuantly there is such a rule, so we are allowed to shoot).

There isn't a rule that says you can't use it in the opponents asault phase. Unfortunatly there isn't a rule that says you can either.

grendel083 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:That is exactly my point Grendel, if you can use it during your own turn what stops you from using it in theirs? The answer is nothing. Once you clean up the wording to allow it to be used at all it allows use during the opponents phase.

Corrected wording could look something like this (Speculation at best):

"Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank can be used during the assault phase and allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and assaulting provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12

Unfortunatly the rules don't work like that. You can't look for something that says 'you can't do that' you have to look for something that says you can. It's the nature of the permissive rules set that this game uses.

Every answer to every question in this game is 'NO'. Unless a rule says 'YES'.
Q. Can I shoot?
A. No. Unless a rules states otherwise (fortuantly there is such a rule, so we are allowed to shoot).

There isn't a rule that says you can't use it in the opponents asault phase. Unfortunatly there isn't a rule that says you can either.

Unfortunately you cant use it at all is what you mean.
I am not saying that you can use it during their phase as it is written.
As I have stated from the beginning it can't be used at all.
However, once you change it to work during the controllers turn it would have to work during the opponents turn.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:the wrecking ball is being brought up due to the fact some people believe that War gear can only be used on you turn.

And they'd be right. But the Wreckin' Ball tells us when. In the Assault phase. So for the Wreckin' Ball, yes use it in your opponenets turn

This is a classic example of permissions confusion.

There is no rule, in the brb, that says I can't take all of my opponents models, throw them in a wood chipper, make them into plastic salsa, and serve them to him with tortilla chips.

There is also no rule that says you can't use your boarding plank on your opponents turn.

Everybody wins! (MmMmm plastic salsa!)

Unfortunately the game doesn't work that way.

You have permission to assault an enemy vehicle, within 2" of your plank, as if you were disembarked and charging. You can neither disembark nor charge on your opponents turn. You therefore cannot fulfill the boarding planks special rule... so it doesn't work.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Cottonjaw wrote:This is a classic example of permissions confusion.

There is no rule, in the brb, that says I can't take all of my opponents models, throw them in a wood chipper, make them into plastic salsa, and serve them to him with tortilla chips.

There is also no rule that says you can't use your boarding plank on your opponents turn.

Everybody wins! (MmMmm plastic salsa!)

Unfortunately the game doesn't work that way.

You have permission to assault an enemy vehicle, within 2" of your plank, as if you were disembarked and charging. You can neither disembark nor charge on your opponents turn. You therefore cannot fulfill the boarding planks special rule... so it doesn't work.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news.

Please read the thread. Seriously, everything you said has been covered.

Icemyn wrote:Unfortunately you cant use it at all is what you mean.
I am not saying that you can use it during their phase as it is written.
As I have stated from the beginning it can't be used at all.
However, once you change it to work during the controllers turn it would have to work during the opponents turn.

If we strip it all down and assume the asault phase is the correct time to use it (and take into account we're using a 4th ed codex in 5th ed rules), We're left with using a piece of wargear that allows us to make a special attack in the assault phase. Since we have to follow the few rules we're left with, we have a piece of wargear, which (as with all wargear) unless specified can only be used in our own turn.

The Wrecking ball just says Assault phase, not specified as to whose. yet you just agreed that it works in their assault phase.

This unwritten rule Does Not Exist.

Icemyn, My Autarch is given permission to fire a meltagun. Since all shooting is done in the Shooting phase, why can I not shoot my Meltagun in YOUR Shooting phase? After all, your claim is that you CAN use all wargear in your opponents turn.

Happyjew wrote:Icemyn, My Autarch is given permission to fire a meltagun. Since all shooting is done in the Shooting phase, why can I not shoot my Meltagun in YOUR Shooting phase? After all, your claim is that you CAN use all wargear in your opponents turn.

Actually I never claimed that, I have claimed that wargear being given blanket permission to be used during a phase are unrestricted as to whose phase unless specified. Though I am unsurprised that you would misinterpret that.

Boarding Plank once it has been corrected to function at all, would read similarly to Wrecking Ball and give Assault phase permission for both phases.

Icemyn wrote:Boarding Plank once it has been corrected to function at all, would read similarly to Wrecking Ball and give Assault phase permission for both phases.

We can't assume how a rule would read if corrected. We can only go with what little rules we have.

Unfortunatly we have to be a little loose with the rules to use them at all. If a boarding plank was used in a tournament, and our opponent was TFG he could claim we can't use it. In that case (with TO intervention) we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The few rules we have, without trying to guess what a correction would be, is a piece of wargear.

grendel083 wrote:

Icemyn wrote:Boarding Plank once it has been corrected to function at all, would read similarly to Wrecking Ball and give Assault phase permission for both phases.

We can't assume how a rule would read if corrected. We can only go with what little rules we have.

Unfortunatly we have to be a little loose with the rules to use them at all. If a boarding plank was used in a tournament, and our opponent was TFG he could claim we can't use it. In that case (with TO intervention) we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

The few rules we have, without trying to guess what a correction would be, is a piece of wargear.

I agree with all of what you said.
But, I think you agree at this point that if you correct BP wording for 5th edition to make it work as written it would work in the opponents phase. You nearly said it a few posts ago.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:The Wrecking ball just says Assault phase, not specified as to whose. yet you just agreed that it works in their assault phase.

This unwritten rule Does Not Exist.

It exists, but it is not exactly like it was put forth. It is because of the permissive rule set.

They said "you can not use wargear in your opponents turn" Or something like that.

This is true because of the permissive rule set.

The permissive rule set says you may not do anything unless the rule says you can.

So indeed "you can not use wargear in your opponents turn" unless otherwise specified.


The Boarding Plank does not work in your opponents turn because you can not charge in any phase other than your own assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:The Wrecking ball just says Assault phase, not specified as to whose. yet you just agreed that it works in their assault phase.

This unwritten rule Does Not Exist.

It exists, but it is not exactly like it was put forth. It is because of the permissive rule set.

They said "you can not use wargear in your opponents turn" Or something like that.

This is true because of the permissive rule set.

The permissive rule set says you may not do anything unless the rule says you can.

So indeed "you can not use wargear in your opponents turn" unless otherwise specified.


The Boarding Plank does not work in your opponents turn because you can not charge in any phase other than your own assault phase.

You keep saying that.
Except there is no rule for charging in the BRB so you may never charge.
if you mean assaulting then I will say again you are not actually assaulting.

Icemyn wrote:I agree with all of what you said.
But, I think you agree at this point that if you correct BP wording for 5th edition to make it work as written it would work in the opponents phase. You nearly said it a few posts ago.

Honestly I would like it work in both phases. I'd like a brand new Codex: Orks as well. In the mean time I'm just grateful if my opponent lets me use a boarding plank at all. I wont push that luck by trying to guess what a correction should be.

Codex: Orks is a 4th edition Codex. Use common sense when interpreting rules as such.

Happyjew wrote:Icemyn, My Autarch is given permission to fire a meltagun. Since all shooting is done in the Shooting phase, why can I not shoot my Meltagun in YOUR Shooting phase? After all, your claim is that you CAN use all wargear in your opponents turn.

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:The Wrecking ball just says Assault phase, not specified as to whose. yet you just agreed that it works in their assault phase.

This unwritten rule Does Not Exist.

It exists, but it is not exactly like it was put forth. It is because of the permissive rule set.

They said "you can not use wargear in your opponents turn" Or something like that.

This is true because of the permissive rule set.

The permissive rule set says you may not do anything unless the rule says you can.

So indeed "you can not use wargear in your opponents turn" unless otherwise specified.


The Boarding Plank does not work in your opponents turn because you can not charge in any phase other than your own assault phase.

See what happy did there.

Icemyn wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
It exists, but it is not exactly like it was put forth. It is because of the permissive rule set.

They said "you can not use wargear in your opponents turn" Or something like that.

This is true because of the permissive rule set.

The permissive rule set says you may not do anything unless the rule says you can.

So indeed "you can not use wargear in your opponents turn" unless otherwise specified.


The Boarding Plank does not work in your opponents turn because you can not charge in any phase other than your own assault phase.

You keep saying that.
Except there is no rule for charging in the BRB so you may never charge.
if you mean assaulting then I will say again you are not actually assaulting.

On Page 1 it was clarified that Charging = Assaulting.

Mannahnin wrote:Charging must be read to mean "as if you are assaulting", to mean anything.
You cannot launch an assault in your opponent's turn.

grendel083 wrote:Now bearing in mind you're using a Codex written for 4th Edition rules, where 'charging' really was assaulting.

Icemyn wrote:You keep saying that.
Except there is no rule for charging in the BRB so you may never charge.

You're right "Charge" is never actually defined, which means, not only do Boarding Planks not work, but Hunting Lances (IG), Cerberus Launcher (SM, possibly variants not sure), possibly a few more things cannot be used. However, via context, we know that charging=assaulting (much like in FNP, injury=wound).

So interesting, the only way you can use it in your opponents phase is if you re-write the rule and then quote the made up rule and call it RAW...

That is a new one for YMTC...

Just because wrecking ball works a specific way doesn't mean boarding plank works the same way. The only Assumption is the boarding plank is allowing you to make limited assault actions which is only on your turn as you cannot disembark and assault on your opponents turn. You are not engaged in close combat which gives you no permission to begin executing close combat attacks on your opponents phase.

You have to make up rules for it to work on your opponents turn which makes it wrong.

nkelsch wrote:That is a new one for YMTC...

I wouldn't say that

how many times must it be said.

the boarding plank at no time Initiates an Assault.

nkelsch wrote:So interesting, the only way you can use it in your opponents phase is if you re-write the rule and then quote the made up rule and call it RAW...

That is a new one for YMTC...

Just because wrecking ball works a specific way doesn't mean boarding plank works the same way. The only Assumption is the boarding plank is allowing you to make limited assault actions which is only on your turn as you cannot disembark and assault on your opponents turn. You are not engaged in close combat which gives you no permission to begin executing close combat attacks on your opponents phase.

You have to make up rules for it to work on your opponents turn which makes it wrong.

You have to make up rules to make it work at all.
At no point have I called it RAW.
You keep saying that you have to be able to disembark or assault and those by RAW are not even remotely true. Everything you have said that prohibits using BP in the opponents phase prohibits you from using it in your own phase.

If you are going to show up and quote the same tired argument over and over again you could at least address the fact that you are not assaulting or disembarking. Once you get past proving that you have to be able to do either of those things you can start talking about what prevents use in the opponents phase.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:how many times must it be said.

the boarding plank at no time Initiates an Assault.

The Boarding Plank rules disagree with you.

"Boarding Plank: Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"

"exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging" allows "a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks" but only exactly like the Ork was disembarked (Could not otherwise make attacks from an embarked vehicle, this part allows it) and charging (This is what tells us that the Ork acts as if he were actually launching an assault). Something that can not be done in the opponents turn.

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:So interesting, the only way you can use it in your opponents phase is if you re-write the rule and then quote the made up rule and call it RAW...

That is a new one for YMTC...

Just because wrecking ball works a specific way doesn't mean boarding plank works the same way. The only Assumption is the boarding plank is allowing you to make limited assault actions which is only on your turn as you cannot disembark and assault on your opponents turn. You are not engaged in close combat which gives you no permission to begin executing close combat attacks on your opponents phase.

You have to make up rules for it to work on your opponents turn which makes it wrong.

You have to make up rules to make it work at all.
At no point have I called it RAW.
You keep saying that you have to be able to disembark or assault and those by RAW are not even remotely true. Everything you have said that prohibits using BP in the opponents phase prohibits you from using it in your own phase.

If you are going to show up and quote the same tired argument over and over again you could at least address the fact that you are not assaulting or disembarking. Once you get past proving that you have to be able to do either of those things you can start talking about what prevents use in the opponents phase.

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:how many times must it be said.

the boarding plank at no time Initiates an Assault.

The Boarding Plank rules disagree with you.

"Boarding Plank: Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"

"exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging" allows "a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks" but only exactly like the Ork was disembarked (Could not otherwise make attacks from an embarked vehicle, this part allows it) and charging (This is what tells us that the Ork acts as if he were actually launching an assault). Something that can not be done in the opponents turn.

damn icemyn ninjaed me

Yeah, if there were two RAI and we had to pick the closest one to RAW, it would be the one where you follow as much RAW as possible which is only when you can disembark and assault, which is your own turn. The more liberal approach doesn't fly where the restrictive one actually is somewhat supported and makes actual sense.

And when someone tries to argue absurd intent like some people here are, the answer is 'If intent is absurd, then we follow raw which is nothing'

Which is why " I am thankful my opponent allows me to use the BP at all" is correct because it is a poorly written rule with lots of important info left out... (which is one of the reasons boarding plank is 2" of the hull not 2" of the upgrade like other ork upgrades)

DeathReaper wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:how many times must it be said.

the boarding plank at no time Initiates an Assault.

The Boarding Plank rules disagree with you.

"Boarding Plank: Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring assaults on nearby vehicles. A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"

"exactly as the Ork was disembarked and charging" allows "a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks" but only exactly like the Ork was disembarked (Could not otherwise make attacks from an embarked vehicle, this part allows it) and charging (This is what tells us that the Ork acts as if he were actually launching an assault). Something that can not be done in the opponents turn.

I think you are missing the "as if" Is a chaos lord with wings Jump infantry or not?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Yeah, if there were two RAI and we had to pick the closest one to RAW, it would be the one where you follow as much RAW as possible which is only when you can disembark and assault, which is your own turn. The more liberal approach doesn't fly where the restrictive one actually is somewhat supported and makes actual sense.

And when someone tries to argue absurd intent like some people here are, the answer is 'If intent is absurd, then we follow raw which is nothing'

Which is why " I am thankful my opponent allows me to use the BP at all" is correct because it is a poorly written rule with lots of important info left out... (which is one of the reasons boarding plank is 2" of the hull not 2" of the upgrade like other ork upgrades)

I agree with your last paragraph.
But, at what point do you decide when intent is absurd? How do you know for certain that this was not intended to be used during the opponents assault phase? Nothing in the rule supports that stance, so I am merely putting forward the possibility that it is usable then.

I have already stated several times how the rule is broken in more ways than one and any one of them would keep it from working at all. That is not the point, All I have been arguing is that the RAI that everyone seems to believe in allow you to use it during the opponents phase.

If that is the issue that everyone has a problem with then I will just quote RAW for the duration of this thread which as we all know is that it doesn't work.

I took the quote from someone earlier in the thread. I should have actually ready the book and gave the actual quote which I will do now.

The actual wording is:
"Boarding Plank: Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring attacks on nearby vehicles, A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as if the Ork were disembarked and charging, provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"."

So it only allows "a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle" but only "exactly as if the Ork were disembarked "(which creates an allowance to attack while embarked.) and he only does so "exactly as if the Ork were charging".

So you may only use it when you are allowed to be in a phase that allows the Ork to charge.

Icemyn wrote:I agree with your last paragraph.
But, at what point do you decide when intent is absurd? How do you know for certain that this was not intended to be used during the opponents assault phase? Nothing in the rule supports that stance, so I am merely putting forward the possibility that it is usable then.

When the official FAQs clearly show a consistant line of thinking on how the rule should be applied in interaction with other rules, like planking a different unit than what you shot heavily supporting the plank functions as an assault action and would normally be restricted like one. Also clearly showing with the dreadnaught rules where the model is not engaged in combat and that also adds credence that you are not capable of being engaged on your opponents turn.

The train of thought from the multiple FAQs is pretty clear, and the only on your own turn is the least advantagous result which also makes it the better application and more conservative RAI which makes your interpretation absurd by comparison and the even more absurd where since it doesn;t actually specify the assault phase you can make the attack during shooting, movement and multiple times because not specifying becomes license to do anything you want.

Icemyn wrote:I think you are missing the "as if" Is a chaos lord with wings Jump infantry or not?

According to the wording of "Wings" P.85 CSM Codex, "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry..."

they are not Jump Infantry because the only move in the same way as JI.

How does this have any bearing on what we are discussing?

DeathReaper wrote:I took the quote from someone earlier in the thread. I should have actually ready the book and gave the actual quote which I will do now.

The actual wording is:
"Boarding Plank: Orks often employ hinged planks that allow them to make daring attacks on nearby vehicles, A boarding plank allows a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle within 2" exactly as if the Ork were disembarked and charging, provided neither vehicle has moved more than 12"."

So it only allows "a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks against an enemy vehicle" but only "exactly as if the Ork were disembarked "(which creates an allowance to attack while embarked.) and he only does so "exactly as if the Ork were charging".

So you may only use it when you are allowed to be in a phase that allows the Ork to charge.

If you change charging to assaulting then we have precedent for how one handles "as if assaulting" in Counter-Attack. It only serves to denote the number of attacks and assault bonuses nothing else. It is not a prerequisite for use of the Boarding Plank.

The important bit is "a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks ... as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" . If you read it that way it is obvious that he is not actually disembarking or assaulting and as such you don't need to be able to.

Again unless of course you think Chaos Lords with wings are actually Jump infantry.

People are just making stuff up now... this thread has no value anymore as nothing supports the broken RAI being proposed.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:I agree with your last paragraph.
But, at what point do you decide when intent is absurd? How do you know for certain that this was not intended to be used during the opponents assault phase? Nothing in the rule supports that stance, so I am merely putting forward the possibility that it is usable then.

When the official FAQs clearly show a consistant line of thinking on how the rule should be applied in interaction with other rules, like planking a different unit than what you shot heavily supporting the plank functions as an assault action and would normally be restricted like one. Also clearly showing with the dreadnaught rules where the model is not engaged in combat and that also adds credence that you are not capable of being engaged on your opponents turn.

The train of thought from the multiple FAQs is pretty clear, and the only on your own turn is the least advantagous result which also makes it the better application and more conservative RAI which makes your interpretation absurd by comparison and the even more absurd where since it doesn;t actually specify the assault phase you can make the attack during shooting, movement and multiple times because not specifying becomes license to do anything you want.

Q: Can an Ork that is attacking an enemy vehicle by
using a boarding plank do so even if his unit fired at a
different target in the Shooting phase? (p93)
A: Yes.

Clearly this means it is not an assault. here is why

BRB pg. what ever. you must assault what ever you shoot.

So unless this FAQ is a direct contradiction of the rules and sets a precedent for something or other, IT is Not an Assault.

Icemyn wrote:If you change charging to assaulting then we have precedent for how one handles "as if assaulting" in Counter-Attack. It only serves to denote the number of attacks and assault bonuses nothing else. It is not a prerequisite for use of the Boarding Plank.

The important bit is "a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks ... as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" . If you read it that way it is obvious that he is not actually disembarking or assaulting and as such you don't need to be able to.

"he is not actually disembarking or assaulting" but he is making attacks as if he were.

And since you can only charge on your turn, you can only make attacks as if the Ork were disembarked and charging, which you can only do in your assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:

Icemyn wrote:If you change charging to assaulting then we have precedent for how one handles "as if assaulting" in Counter-Attack. It only serves to denote the number of attacks and assault bonuses nothing else. It is not a prerequisite for use of the Boarding Plank.

The important bit is "a single embarked Ork to make its close combat attacks ... as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" . If you read it that way it is obvious that he is not actually disembarking or assaulting and as such you don't need to be able to.

"he is not actually disembarking or assaulting" but he is making attacks as if he were.

And since you can only charge on your turn, you can only make attacks as if the Ork were disembarked and charging, which you can only do in your assault phase.

You can only disembark in your assault phase weird.
Joking aside, as I have stated they are not requirements only instructions in how to reconcile the wargears rules with the BRB.

How do I make CC attacks if Im embarked? Oh as if disembarked.
How many attacks do I get? Oh as if charging so +1.

Really not hard.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:I agree with your last paragraph.
But, at what point do you decide when intent is absurd? How do you know for certain that this was not intended to be used during the opponents assault phase? Nothing in the rule supports that stance, so I am merely putting forward the possibility that it is usable then.

When the official FAQs clearly show a consistant line of thinking on how the rule should be applied in interaction with other rules, like planking a different unit than what you shot heavily supporting the plank functions as an assault action and would normally be restricted like one. Also clearly showing with the dreadnaught rules where the model is not engaged in combat and that also adds credence that you are not capable of being engaged on your opponents turn.

The train of thought from the multiple FAQs is pretty clear, and the only on your own turn is the least advantagous result which also makes it the better application and more conservative RAI which makes your interpretation absurd by comparison and the even more absurd where since it doesn;t actually specify the assault phase you can make the attack during shooting, movement and multiple times because not specifying becomes license to do anything you want.

Q: Can an Ork that is attacking an enemy vehicle by
using a boarding plank do so even if his unit fired at a
different target in the Shooting phase? (p93)
A: Yes.

Clearly this means it is not an assault. here is why

BRB pg. what ever. you must assault what ever you shoot.

So unless this FAQ is a direct contradiction of the rules and sets a precedent for something or other, IT is Not an Assault.

No, it doesn't mean that... It means it is an assault and they are giving an exception. If it was not an assault then there would be no need to ask the question.

And nothing in this FAQ allows you to make the combat attacks in your opponents phase. Not a shred of proof has been shown that allows it without making up rules.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So unless this FAQ is a direct contradiction of the rules and sets a precedent for something or other, IT is Not an Assault.

Not out of the question, see: Tyranid FAQs.

nkelsch wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:I agree with your last paragraph.
But, at what point do you decide when intent is absurd? How do you know for certain that this was not intended to be used during the opponents assault phase? Nothing in the rule supports that stance, so I am merely putting forward the possibility that it is usable then.

When the official FAQs clearly show a consistant line of thinking on how the rule should be applied in interaction with other rules, like planking a different unit than what you shot heavily supporting the plank functions as an assault action and would normally be restricted like one. Also clearly showing with the dreadnaught rules where the model is not engaged in combat and that also adds credence that you are not capable of being engaged on your opponents turn.

The train of thought from the multiple FAQs is pretty clear, and the only on your own turn is the least advantagous result which also makes it the better application and more conservative RAI which makes your interpretation absurd by comparison and the even more absurd where since it doesn;t actually specify the assault phase you can make the attack during shooting, movement and multiple times because not specifying becomes license to do anything you want.

Q: Can an Ork that is attacking an enemy vehicle by
using a boarding plank do so even if his unit fired at a
different target in the Shooting phase? (p93)
A: Yes.

Clearly this means it is not an assault. here is why

BRB pg. what ever. you must assault what ever you shoot.

So unless this FAQ is a direct contradiction of the rules and sets a precedent for something or other, IT is Not an Assault.

No, it doesn't mean that... It means it is an assault and they are giving an exception. If it was not an assault then there would be no need to ask the question.

And nothing in this FAQ allows you to make the combat attacks in your opponents phase. Not a shred of proof has been shown that allows it without making up rules.

That or the FAQ is a clarification for people like yourself who believe as if assaulting actually means assaulting. Sometimes FAQ's don't just make up rules or change the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So unless this FAQ is a direct contradiction of the rules and sets a precedent for something or other, IT is Not an Assault.

Not out of the question, see: Tyranid FAQs.

True FAQ's change rules all the time, but how are we to know which it is?
Being that the Rule is already pretty clear about it not being an assault, I don't think there is any question that this is a clarification.

Icemyn wrote:
True FAQ's change rules all the time, but how are we to know which it is?
Being that the Rule is already pretty clear about it not being an assault, I don't think there is any question that this is a clarification.

It isn't engaged in combat either so nothing allows you to use it in your opponents phase. It is not a wrecking ball.

You are arguing RAI which is a radical version of RAI which there is a much more plasuible and conservative RAI out there which is widley accepted. If you try to make rules up which is what you have done, prepare for RAW to take your toys away.

There is not a single rule anywhere allowing it to work in your opponents phase and no clear line of thougt supported anywhere in the FAQ. It doesn't exist.

Icemyn wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:And since you can only charge on your turn, you can only make attacks as if the Ork were disembarked and charging, which you can only do in your assault phase.

You can only disembark in your assault phase weird.
Joking aside, as I have stated they are not requirements only instructions in how to reconcile the wargears rules with the BRB.

How do I make CC attacks if Im embarked? Oh as if disembarked.
How many attacks do I get? Oh as if charging so +1.

and when can you charge? Oh in your own assault phase.

The "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" is a stipulation on how the power works. So it is a requirement.

and it says "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" Note how Disembarked is past tense.

AKA Not in the vehicle and charging.

you can not act "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" in your opponents assault phase. since you can be disembarked, but you can not be charging.

It really saddens me how one person yells out "YOU'RE MAKING THAT UP!!!" and the entire argument is ignore, just to be argued again three pages later. YMDC's discussions have really dropped to a new low.

DeathReaper wrote:and when can you charge? Oh in your own assault phase.

Except, that's irrelevant. The only requirement for the boarding plank is to be able to make close combat attacks and being and ork.

The "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" is a stipulation on how the power works. So it is a requirement.

You can bark as if you were a dog without being a dog.
A daemon prince can move as if he were jump infantry, without being jump infantry.
An ork can make attacks as if disembarked and charging without being disembarked and charging.

As orks, like all models with an attack value can make close combat attacks during an opponents assault phase, they may also make attacks "as if disembarked and charging" during the opponents phase.
"As if" can never define a requirement.

and it says "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" Note how Disembarked is past tense.

AKA Not in the vehicle and charging.

you can not act "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" in your opponents assault phase. since you can be disembarked, but you can not be charging.

Except you are explicitly told to act that way when resolving the attacks from one ork via the boarding plank. There is no rule against that.

Might not the key to this entire debate be the line "providing neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

If the attack isn't allowed in the opponent's turn then there could never be a situation where the enemy vehicle had moved at all much less >12".

Magpie wrote:Might not the key to this entire debate be the line "providing neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

If the attack isn't allowed in the opponent's turn then there could never be a situation where the enemy vehicle had moved at all much less >12".

Sadly not relevant at all.
That would be the same as auto-hitting a vehicle in combat because it hasn't moved this (player) turn. You go by the distance the vehicle traveled in its last movement phase.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
True FAQ's change rules all the time, but how are we to know which it is?
Being that the Rule is already pretty clear about it not being an assault, I don't think there is any question that this is a clarification.

It isn't engaged in combat either so nothing allows you to use it in your opponents phase. It is not a wrecking ball.

You are arguing RAI which is a radical version of RAI which there is a much more plasuible and conservative RAI out there which is widley accepted. If you try to make rules up which is what you have done, prepare for RAW to take your toys away.

There is not a single rule anywhere allowing it to work in your opponents phase and no clear line of thougt supported anywhere in the FAQ. It doesn't exist.

Thank you for your opinions, but they are only that. I have stated time and again rules actual RAW with support from other codexes and the rule book. And the best you and DeathReaper can muster is nuh-uh. Kind of sad really.

You sit back and claim that I am arguing a radical RAI when I am only taking your conservative RAI and applying it more broadly. RAW it doesn't work.

"as if" is not "is". Show me one instance where it is. Just one and I will concede this argument. I have shown you counter-Attack "as if assaulting" I have shown you Chaos Lord "Moves as if Jump Infantry" and yet you still claim (wrongly) that being able to disembark or assault (charge) are required.

grendel083 wrote:

Magpie wrote:Might not the key to this entire debate be the line "providing neither vehicle has moved more than 12" "

If the attack isn't allowed in the opponent's turn then there could never be a situation where the enemy vehicle had moved at all much less >12".

Sadly not relevant at all.
That would be the same as auto-hitting a vehicle in combat because it hasn't moved this (player) turn. You go by the distance the vehicle traveled in its last movement phase.

That is because the rule specifically says that, not so for planks

Icemyn wrote:Thank you for your opinions, but they are only that. I have stated time and again rules actual RAW with support from other codexes and the rule book. And the best you and DeathReaper can muster is nuh-uh. Kind of sad really.

You sit back and claim that I am arguing a radical RAI when I am only taking your conservative RAI and applying it more broadly. RAW it doesn't work.

"as if" is not "is". Show me one instance where it is. Just one and I will concede this argument. I have shown you counter-Attack "as if assaulting" I have shown you Chaos Lord "Moves as if Jump Infantry" and yet you still claim (wrongly) that being able to disembark or assault (charge) are required.

It is actually on you guys to find proof that it does work in your opponents turn.

We have cited, and shown you do not have permission, it is on you to prove permission, something which you have not done.

you know Permissive rule set and all.

DeathReaper wrote:

Icemyn wrote:Thank you for your opinions, but they are only that. I have stated time and again rules actual RAW with support from other codexes and the rule book. And the best you and DeathReaper can muster is nuh-uh. Kind of sad really.

You sit back and claim that I am arguing a radical RAI when I am only taking your conservative RAI and applying it more broadly. RAW it doesn't work.

"as if" is not "is". Show me one instance where it is. Just one and I will concede this argument. I have shown you counter-Attack "as if assaulting" I have shown you Chaos Lord "Moves as if Jump Infantry" and yet you still claim (wrongly) that being able to disembark or assault (charge) are required.

It is actually on you guys to find proof that it does work in your opponents turn.

We have cited, and shown you do not have permission, it is on you to prove permission, something which you have not done.

you know Permissive rule set and all.

No I have clearly stated it doesnt work at all. Maybe you missed that?
Also I note that you didn't show that that "as if assaulting" is assaulting.
I have only said that once you grant permission to use it on your turn it allows use on the opponents and nothing you have said contradicts that. So please try again.

So you think this permissive rule set allows use on your turn?
What part of the rule keeps you from using it on theirs?

Slow & Purposeful (always counts as moving through difficult terrain). If the model assaults, his Initiative is reduced to 1.

Happyjew wrote:Slow & Purposeful (always counts as moving through difficult terrain). If the model assaults, his Initiative is reduced to 1.

"counts as" is not "as if".
Counts as has been shown many times in YMDC to mean "is".
Writhing Worldscape would be an example of this, a quick search will find you that debate I am sure.

Additionally if Slow & Purposeful said "moves as if in difficult terrain" then you would still be slowed. The as if is only there to tell you how and when you count as slowed. At no point are you actually in difficult terrain and can't claim mobile cover. Same as you are at no point required to be assaulting or able to be assaulting.

Jidmah wrote:
Except, that's irrelevant. The only requirement for the boarding plank is to be able to make close combat attacks and being and ork.

Wrong.

And you are not engaged and the boarding plank gives you no ability to be engaged so how do you make your close combats attack on your opponents phase with no explicit permission to do so and not being engaged with any models in CC?

No permission exists anywhere. There is nothing that allows the rule to be executed on your opponents turn (or any turn actually) and nothing gives the impression you can use it on your opponents turn without making up rules and adding language fromthe wrecking ball upgrade.

nkelsch wrote:

Jidmah wrote:
Except, that's irrelevant. The only requirement for the boarding plank is to be able to make close combat attacks and being and ork.

Wrong.

And you are not engaged and the boarding plank gives you no ability to be engaged so how do you make your close combats attack on your opponents phase with no explicit permission to do so and not being engaged with any models in CC?

No permission exists anywhere. There is nothing that allows the rule to be executed on your opponents turn (or any turn actually) and nothing gives the impression you can use it on your opponents turn without making up rules and adding language fromthe wrecking ball upgrade.

Wrong.

The reason there is no permission to use BP on your opponents turn is that there exists no permission to use it on your own turn.

Icemyn wrote:The reason there is no permission to use BP on your opponents turn is that there exists no permission to use it on your own turn.

So how about we stop going in circles then? Let's just use it in the ork turn's assault phase and be happy.

Although for ork vs ork games I'd be happy to agree on enemy turn too, just to see the two Battlewagons going at each other. ;-)

Spetulhu wrote:

Icemyn wrote:The reason there is no permission to use BP on your opponents turn is that there exists no permission to use it on your own turn.

So how about we stop going in circles then? Let's just use it in the ork turn's assault phase and be happy.

Although for ork vs ork games I'd be happy to agree on enemy turn too, just to see the two Battlewagons going at each other. ;-)

Its obvious that it doesn't work by RAW.
Unfortunately, some people seem to think that there is some restriction keeping you from using BP during the other turn based on the words "as-if".
That is where the argument is at this point, its no longer about BP working everyone seems to agree they don't. This is a Rules forum not a HIWPI forum and as such I am just pointing out that if BP functioned at all nothing in the rules precludes use in the opponents turn.

Initially, I said it cannot be used because you cannot charge in your opponents turn. As it is, I do see that that is wrong. I, do however, agree that since you do not have specific permission to use it in your opponents turn, it cannot be used.

Icemyn wrote:
Wrong.

The reason there is no permission to use BP on your opponents turn is that there exists no permission to use it on your own turn.

But there is Intent as they describe the behavior of the attacking ork. You are trying to parse 4th edition rules into a fake version of 5th edition RAW and claiming intent.

You can't claim RAW and parse 'exactly as if' and then turn and claim it was RAI. You can't only analyze part of a rule with RAW to get RAI either. That doesn't wash... The intent is painfully clear for this poorly worded 4th edition rule and you are trying to parse it with 5th edition RAW and fill in any blanks with personally advantagous results.

So either you accept the Rule does nothing or accept you can't make RAW arguments when claiming intent which means you can parse 'exactly as if' until your brain explodes and no one anywhere gives a crap because whatever you make up is RAI because RAW shows a broken, nonfunctional piece of gear and the true intent is also painfully clear for people not trying to gain a personal advantage.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
Wrong.

The reason there is no permission to use BP on your opponents turn is that there exists no permission to use it on your own turn.

But there is Intent as they describe the behavior of the attacking ork. You are trying to parse 4th edition rules into a fake version of 5th edition RAW and claiming intent.

You can't claim RAW and parse 'exactly as if' and then turn and claim it was RAI. You can't only analyze part of a rule with RAW to get RAI either. That doesn't wash... The intent is painfully clear for this poorly worded 4th edition rule and you are trying to parse it with 5th edition RAW and fill in any blanks with personally advantagous results.

So either you accept the Rule does nothing or accept you can't make RAW arguments when claiming intent which means you can parse 'exactly as if' until your brain explodes and no one anywhere gives a crap because whatever you make up is RAI because RAW shows a broken, nonfunctional piece of gear and the true intent is also painfully clear for people not trying to gain a personal advantage.

Take a quick gander at my sig and you will note that I don't play Orks.
The fact that you think my argument has anything to do with some personal advantage is in fact insulting. That would be like me saying that you are only continuing your long winded arguments because you are unwilling to admit that you have no leg to stand on.

The fact that you perceive this to be painfully clear does not make you any less wrong. I am not making anything up you on the other hand are. I have only quoted RAW in a Rules forum. I'm sure you can find another forum somewhere where you can talk about your feelings.

@Happyjew: Its actually good to see that there are still people who can admit a bad argument. I didnt think they existed on dakka. The usual modus operadi is to just backpeddle and misquote rules until something sticks.

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
Wrong.

The reason there is no permission to use BP on your opponents turn is that there exists no permission to use it on your own turn.

But there is Intent as they describe the behavior of the attacking ork. You are trying to parse 4th edition rules into a fake version of 5th edition RAW and claiming intent.

You can't claim RAW and parse 'exactly as if' and then turn and claim it was RAI. You can't only analyze part of a rule with RAW to get RAI either. That doesn't wash... The intent is painfully clear for this poorly worded 4th edition rule and you are trying to parse it with 5th edition RAW and fill in any blanks with personally advantagous results.

So either you accept the Rule does nothing or accept you can't make RAW arguments when claiming intent which means you can parse 'exactly as if' until your brain explodes and no one anywhere gives a crap because whatever you make up is RAI because RAW shows a broken, nonfunctional piece of gear and the true intent is also painfully clear for people not trying to gain a personal advantage.

Take a quick gander at my sig and you will note that I don't play Orks.
The fact that you think my argument has anything to do with some personal advantage is in fact insulting. That would be like me saying that you are only continuing your long winded arguments because you are unwilling to admit that you have no leg to stand on.

The fact that you perceive this to be painfully clear does not make you any less wrong. I am not making anything up you on the other hand are. I have only quoted RAW in a Rules forum. I'm sure you can find another forum somewhere where you can talk about your feelings.

@Happyjew: Its actually good to see that there are still people who can admit a bad argument. I didnt think they existed on dakka. The usual modus operadi is to just backpeddle and misquote rules until something sticks.

You haven't quoted *ANY* RAW as all arguments that the boardingplay can be used in any capacity have to be RAI by the very nature of it. The idea that you are somehow using RAW to parse 5th edition rules against a 4th edition codex and come up with the only painfully clear RAI is absurd.

And no one anywhere ever plays your intepretation and it had no way of ever working this way int he oprevious edition whcih basically shows intent like all the other 4th edition ork rules 'which do nothing' like Ghazghkulls 'waaagh movement' as now there is no such thing as 'waagh movement'.

You are the one who is misquoting and backpeddling until something sticks, especially when you had to actually MODIFY THE RULES QUOTE to make it RAW. Simply posting hundreds of times an hour doesn't make you right because none of your rules actually are RAW.


And to prove no one anywhere will ever play your interpretation: The wrecking ball,
ORK.93J.01 – Q: Can a Wreckin’ Ball be used in the opponent’s assault phase?
A: No [clarification].

The only ugrade which by RAW *COULD* work in the opponents phase has an INAT clarification that it cannot be used in the opponent's assault phase. The issue is GW FAQs often take a lot of direction from INAT and most major events and even minor trickledown events use INAT in whole or in part. and *EVERYONE* follow the wrecking ball interpretation... and everyone follows the same RAI for boarding planks.

No one attempts to do these shenanigans because the Ork codex is full of broken rules which need intent and we know how they were supposed to work from 4th edition and we simply choose to follow the 4th edition itnent than a broken 5th edition where they do nothing or are over the top.

So continue to argue what you like, the reality is:
*Most people assume that it can only be used on their own phase.
*INAT supports it can only be used on your own phase which does trickle down pretty far in official, unofficial and casual play.
*RAW does not support your position at all as most ork rules break if you apply RAW
*People if having a choice between an unfair overpowered or RAW not working, they choose RAW not working. Google deathrollers from 2007-2009.

Boarding planks do not work on the opponent's phase, or don't work at all. Those are the only two choices as any other intepretation becomes 'doesn't work at all'.

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:
Wrong.

The reason there is no permission to use BP on your opponents turn is that there exists no permission to use it on your own turn.

But there is Intent as they describe the behavior of the attacking ork. You are trying to parse 4th edition rules into a fake version of 5th edition RAW and claiming intent.

You can't claim RAW and parse 'exactly as if' and then turn and claim it was RAI. You can't only analyze part of a rule with RAW to get RAI either. That doesn't wash... The intent is painfully clear for this poorly worded 4th edition rule and you are trying to parse it with 5th edition RAW and fill in any blanks with personally advantagous results.

So either you accept the Rule does nothing or accept you can't make RAW arguments when claiming intent which means you can parse 'exactly as if' until your brain explodes and no one anywhere gives a crap because whatever you make up is RAI because RAW shows a broken, nonfunctional piece of gear and the true intent is also painfully clear for people not trying to gain a personal advantage.

Take a quick gander at my sig and you will note that I don't play Orks.
The fact that you think my argument has anything to do with some personal advantage is in fact insulting. That would be like me saying that you are only continuing your long winded arguments because you are unwilling to admit that you have no leg to stand on.

The fact that you perceive this to be painfully clear does not make you any less wrong. I am not making anything up you on the other hand are. I have only quoted RAW in a Rules forum. I'm sure you can find another forum somewhere where you can talk about your feelings.

@Happyjew: Its actually good to see that there are still people who can admit a bad argument. I didnt think they existed on dakka. The usual modus operadi is to just backpeddle and misquote rules until something sticks.

You haven't quoted *ANY* RAW as all arguments that the boardingplay can be used in any capacity have to be RAI by the very nature of it. The idea that you are somehow using RAW to parse 5th edition rules against a 4th edition codex and come up with the only painfully clear RAI is absurd.

And no one anywhere ever plays your intepretation and it had no way of ever working this way int he oprevious edition whcih basically shows intent like all the other 4th edition ork rules 'which do nothing' like Ghazghkulls 'waaagh movement' as now there is no such thing as 'waagh movement'.

You are the one who is misquoting and backpeddling until something sticks, especially when you had to actually MODIFY THE RULES QUOTE to make it RAW. Simply posting hundreds of times an hour doesn't make you right because none of your rules actually are RAW.

Wrong.
I have stated time and again that by RAW it does not function.
Yes I have said that RAI is the only way that BP functions. (Page 1, go look)
I am in no way interested in how things were played under 4th edition. Or do you believe that somehow we should use 4th edition combat resolution as well?
I never modified anything to make it RAW. I modified the BP rule by the minimum amount possible to make it function at all, at which point it works in both assault phases.
Maybe if you would read you would see that is what I have said several times now.
Please show one time where I misquoted something. Show me one time where I backpeddled.
Seriously go back and look its all there for your viewing pleasure.
Your argument about having to be able to disembark and assault failed by RAW. YOU are now backpeddling and trying to find ways to be correct.

And to your edit about the INAT.
INAT is not RAW and I'm sure you know carries no weight in this forum. Would you like to find some other non-RAW source to prove me wrong again? Seriously is it too much to ask from you that you maybe post rules in a rule forum?

Will you please show where in the Boarding Plank rules it gives you specific permission to be used in your opponents turn.

Every wargear item (except BP) that can be used in your opponents turn have specific permission to be used. Where is the specific permission for a BP to be used in your opponents turn?

Icemyn wrote:[ Would you like to find some other non-RAW source to prove me wrong again? Seriously is it too much to ask from you that you maybe post rules in a rule forum?

RAW proved you wrong plenty of times, you making arguments claiming to be RAW is your failure.

RAW is the only thing that matters, we have shown dozens of RAI which shows it should work this way and you come back with a bunch of half RAW arguuments which are not supported in any capacity.

You can't argue RAI without accepting there is no right answer, and the reality is if your RAI is too absurd, people will revert to RAW.

Your RAI is absurd and not supported by any rules anywhere which means people will not use it and revert to RAW.

Happyjew wrote:Will you please show where in the Boarding Plank rules it gives you specific permission to be used in your opponents turn.

Every wargear item (except BP) that can be used in your opponents turn have specific permission to be used. Where is the specific permission for a BP to be used in your opponents turn?

If you look back you will see my response to this argument.
I've answered this at least 3 times now.

Additionally, I just found out that the Wrecking Ball which needed no FAQ, has an INAT FAQ which keeps it from working in the opponents turn. I truly don't see why this was done. The WB only mentions the assault phase. There is other wargear that is worded to work in the assault phase that carries no controllers phase rules. Emyrean Brain Mines, Mindshackle Scarabs, etc these are both CC Wargear so maybe that is the difference I do not know. Both of these don't specifically state use in the opponents turn so by your logic they wouldn't work then, but we both know that they do.

If the argument is that 4th edition codexes only allowed things in the owners phase, then I don't have a counter argument to that nor do I have access to all 4th edition codexes to check.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

Icemyn wrote:[ Would you like to find some other non-RAW source to prove me wrong again? Seriously is it too much to ask from you that you maybe post rules in a rule forum?

RAW proved you wrong plenty of times, you making arguments claiming to be RAW is your failure.

RAW is the only thing that matters, we have shown dozens of RAI which shows it should work this way and you come back with a bunch of half RAW arguuments which are not supported in any capacity.

You can't argue RAI without accepting there is no right answer, and the reality is if your RAI is too absurd, people will revert to RAW.

Your RAI is absurd and not supported by any rules anywhere which means people will not use it and revert to RAW.

Just to be clear your stance is now that wargear use during the opponents turn is absurd?
Also please show me a time that I made an argument proved wrong by RAW. (I have shown yours)
And I could just as easily state your RAI is absurd and not supported by any rules anywhere. That is why its called RAI. If it was supported we could call it RAW.

Edit: If you would refrain from blanket statements that would be great, having some idea of what in particular you think is absurd or in question makes it a bit easier to debate.

Just to say it, I think you have a rather good point Icemyn. I do not, and have not read it that way, nor actually anyone else that has even asked about playing it that way.

But it is an interesting one, nonetheless.




(Note: I play only Tyranids, so this has absolutely zero bearing on any game I will probably play. But I guarantee someone will ask me about it.)

Icemyn wrote:

Just to be clear your stance is now that wargear use during the opponents turn is absurd?

If it said the assault phase like a wrecking ball, then it would be either assault phase potentially. It has to explicitly grant permission to be used in a phase for it to be used. If it doesn't say it doesn't actually function. The only way we even knwo it is used in the assault phase is because it claims to be piggy backing on close combat mechanics and it is also piggybacking on rules for assaulting.

If you can use it in your opponents assault phase, why not in your own movement phase? Why not your shooting phase? There are situations where rules can be explicitly given permission to function out of turn like BigBombs shooting happening in the movement phase... so you are tacking NO specificity of phase or time to mean any specificty in phase and time.

The rules are permissive and the rules give no permission.

Also please show me a time that I made an argument proved wrong by RAW. (I have shown yours)

you haven't made a single argument supported by RAW, all of your arguments are RAI by definition because like most of the rules in the 4th edition ork codex, the rules do not function by RAW.

And I could just as easily state your RAI is absurd and not supported by any rules anywhere. That is why its called RAI. If it was supported we could call it RAW.

Not so... see, Mine is conservative RAI which means when there is a spectrum of RAI, obviously some interpretations have larger advantages. Technically the RAi spectrum if you follow the 'it doesn't say I can't model is:

*Boarding plank does nothing
*Boarding plank works in your own assault phase
*Boarding plank works in both assault phases
*Boarding plank works in every phase anytime the player wishes to use it
*Boarding plank works in every phase anytime the player wishes to use it as many times as you wish to use it because it is not a 'real' assault. (and I have seen people make this argument)

One of these is RAW. One of these falls in line with the FAQ, the INAT similar wargear items, falls into line with how it worked when originally written in 4th edition and intended to work and is the most conservative application of a rule which is usually the 'friendly' implementation between two players is to use the least advantagous result.

So I see a distinct difference in array of absurdity between the second and third options.

Icemyn wrote:No I have clearly stated it doesnt work at all. Maybe you missed that?

No, I saw it, it does not make it correct. your statement is an incorrect statement.

Icemyn wrote:Also I note that you didn't show that that "as if assaulting" is assaulting.

What else could it mean?

As if you were assaulting means you act as if you were making an assault move, as that is the only way to initiate CC...

Icemyn wrote:I have only said that once you grant permission to use it on your turn it allows use on the opponents and nothing you have said contradicts that. So please try again.

The rule grants permission to use it "As if you were assaulting" which we know is used in your assault phase, because that's when you can assault.

Icemyn wrote:So you think this permissive rule set allows use on your turn?
What part of the rule keeps you from using it on theirs?

The rule actually allows you to use it on your own turn.

It never allows you to use it in your opponents turn, therefore that is the part of the rule keeps you from using it on your opponents turn.

DeathReaper wrote:

Icemyn wrote:No I have clearly stated it doesnt work at all. Maybe you missed that?

No, I saw it, it does not make it correct. your statement is an incorrect statement.

RAW BP does not work it has no trigger or timing that allows you to use it.
Please show how you think that it works.

DeathReaper wrote:

Icemyn wrote:Also I note that you didn't show that that "as if assaulting" is assaulting.

What else could it mean?

As if you were assaulting means you act as if you were making an assault move, as that is the only way to initiate CC...

As I have shown RAW Counter-Attack is as if assaulting and happens during the opponents turn.
We know that the CA unit is not making an assault move or inititating CC.
You really need to give up "as if" meaning is, it is entirely unsupported by RAW.

DeathReaper wrote:

Icemyn wrote:I have only said that once you grant permission to use it on your turn it allows use on the opponents and nothing you have said contradicts that. So please try again.

The rule grants permission to use it "As if you were assaulting" which we know is used in your assault phase, because that's when you can assault.

I agree that we know it is in an assault phase, but see above as assaulting is not a requirement by RAW.

DeathReaper wrote:

Icemyn wrote:So you think this permissive rule set allows use on your turn?
What part of the rule keeps you from using it on theirs?

The rule actually allows you to use it on your own turn.

Fun Fact: The BP Rules doesn't allow you to use it ever. It is a broken piece of wargear.

DeathReaper wrote:It never allows you to use it in your opponents turn, therefore that is the part of the rule keeps you from using it on your opponents turn.

IF BP works at all nothing in its rule precludes use in the opponents turn.

@nkelsh: At this point we both agree it does not work RAW. Our argument now is whose RAI is more absurd than the others. I would think we can agree that we won't reach an agreement on Intent.

Conservative RAI? Moderate Conservative RAI? Liberal RAI? There is no difference here in a rules forum its all just RAI. It cannot be proven one way or another. As it stands once you admit you are arguing RAI your argument can be no more correct than mine.
If you truly intended to use the least advantageous result that would be the RAW that it doesn't work at all.
Currently you are trying to show how your RAI is in some way more correct.

I have made arguments supported by RAW. "as if" not being is for one. My argument for BP working in the opponents turn is of course not RAW as the BP doesn't even work RAW.

Stop brining up Counter-Attack. It has specific allowance to work in your opponents turn. It hurts your argument, not supports it.

Icemyn wrote:

Icemyn wrote:No I have clearly stated it doesnt work at all. Maybe you missed that?

RAW BP does not work it has no trigger or timing that allows you to use it.
Please show how you think that it works.

Its right in the wording. you can use it if you are within 2" and act as if you were assaulting. you can only assault in your assault phase.

Icemyn wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Icemyn wrote:Also I note that you didn't show that that "as if assaulting" is assaulting.

What else could it mean?

As if you were assaulting means you act as if you were making an assault move, as that is the only way to initiate CC...

As I have shown RAW Counter-Attack is as if assaulting and happens during the opponents turn.
We know that the CA unit is not making an assault move or inititating CC.
You really need to give up "as if" meaning is, it is entirely unsupported by RAW.

Counter-Attack is as if assaulting and happens during the opponents turn because Counter Attack specifically says that it can be used when you are assaulted, and add +1 bonus to their attacks exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.
your viewpoint here hurts your argument, it does not support it.

Icemyn wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Icemyn wrote:I have only said that once you grant permission to use it on your turn it allows use on the opponents and nothing you have said contradicts that. So please try again.

The rule grants permission to use it "As if you were assaulting" which we know is used in your assault phase, because that's when you can assault.

I agree that we know it is in an assault phase, but see above as assaulting is not a requirement by RAW.

except that it is, as that is a condition of how the unit with the BP acts. you can only act as if assaulting on your turn, unless otherwise specified (Counter Attack specifies otherwise, BP does not).

Icemyn wrote:Fun Fact: The BP Rules doesn't allow you to use it ever. It is a broken piece of wargear.

Fun Fact: your statement is not true.

Icemyn wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It never allows you to use it in your opponents turn, therefore that is the part of the rule keeps you from using it on your opponents turn.

IF BP works at all nothing in its rule precludes use in the opponents turn.

It does work, and it must specify that it works on your opponents assault phase, to actually work in your opponents assault phase. It does not say that it can be used in your opponents assault phase, so you can not use it in your opponents assault phase.

@Death Reaper: At the point where you truly believe that BP works within the rules I don't think we have anything to discuss. It never states when it can be used, does not have a trigger.
You need RAI to even assume that it means the assault phase.
At which point you are outside of RAW.

Counter-Attack has a trigger that allows you to be as-if assaulting not asaulting. IF it allowed you to be assaulting you would get furious charge.

Death Reaper: "Its right in the wording. you can use it if you are within 2" and act as if you were assaulting. you can only assault in your assault phase."

Also "right in the wording" is "disembarked" will you argue next that you can disembark in the assault phase?
Or that disembarked also has something to do with timing? You can only disembark in the movement phase thus BP works in the movement phase too?
Wow your interpretation gets better and better.

Not sure where you got this from: "Also "right in the wording" is "disembarked" will you argue next that you can disembark in the assault phase?"

#1: as if Disembarked, meaning past tense, meaning as if you are already out of the vehicle, it in no way gives permission to disembark in the assault phase.

#2: If you re-read the BP entry you can tell when it can be used.

This is because they say "As if the Ork was Disembarked and charging"

When can you charge? (No RAI needed at all).

That is why it works as written.

I do not know how you missed that part.

I could make an underhanded comment about your interpretation, but I will stick to discussing the rules, as the forum dictates. Thanks for the Jab BTW, it is noted.

DeathReaper wrote:Not sure where you got this from: "Also "right in the wording" is "disembarked" will you argue next that you can disembark in the assault phase?"

#1: as if Disembarked, meaning past tense, meaning as if you are already out of the vehicle, it in no way gives permission to disembark in the assault phase.

#2: If you re-read the BP entry you can tell when it can be used.

This is because they say "As if the Ork was Disembarked and charging"

When can you charge? (No RAI needed at all).

That is why it works as written.

I do not know how you missed that part.

I could make an underhanded comment about your interpretation, but I will stick to discussing the rules, as the forum dictates. Thanks for the Jab BTW, it is noted.

My point is obviously that in one breath you say that due to the word charging it dictates use during the assault phase only to ignore the preceding word disembarked as irrelevant.
If "as if" charging indicates timing and means actual assaulting then "as if" disembarking means actual disembarking. You can't have it both ways.

The wording is very clear in the BP it allows a single embarked ork to make CC attacks against a vehicle moving no faster than cruising speed. That is the requirement. The "as if" as I have stated before is only to show how the attacks are made not prerequisites to making them.

The timing for BP that we can imply has nothing to do with as if assaulting it has to do with when we make CC attacks and nothing else.

The Jab was to make light of the absurdity of what you are implying.

Except that it does not say "as if Disembarking" It says "As if Disembarked"

See how the past tense changes the meaning of the phrase from what you mistakenly think it says?

"The "as if" as I have stated before is only to show how the attacks are made not prerequisites to making them."

you are kind of correct with this.

The "as if" shows how the attacks are made. as if you are Disembarked (Meaning not embarked in the vehicle) and Charging. (A condition you are only allowed to achieve in your own assault phase.) If it is your opponents assault phase you can be 'Disembarked', but you can not be 'Charging'

I think that could only apply if it specifically said the ability could only be used in your own assault phase.

The special rule grants you the ability to do 2 things that you normally cannot do.

Assault while embarked on a vehicle which you cannot do otherwise without disembarking and to Charge (which we mean to be assault), in your opponents assault phase.

The Codex and specific case of the Boarding plank overrules the general case of the Assault rules.

But nothing in the Ork Codex gives specific permission to override the restriction on assaulting in your opponents turn.

DeathReaper wrote:But nothing in the Ork Codex gives specific permission to override the restriction on assaulting in your opponents turn.

INAT not withstanding a Wreckin' Ball does.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:But nothing in the Ork Codex gives specific permission to override the restriction on assaulting in your opponents turn.

INAT not withstanding a Wreckin' Ball does.

That is because the Wreckin' ball is worded differently.

The "Wreckin' ball" says it causes a hit on a vehicle within X inches "at the beginning of the assault phase"

Wording the Boarding Planks lack.

the BP lets a model make its close combat attacks as if charging.

I'm saying the Boarding Plank rule does give that permission as the rule does not mention any limits on phases.

The point of that post was to prove what you were saying wrong when you said "Nothing in the ork codex gives permission"

but remember at no time does the embarked ork initiate or participate in an assault. but it does get Furious Assault as if it was Assaulting but at no time is it doing so.

Except the ork acts "Exactly as if disembarked and charging"

You are not actually in B2B but you act as if you are assaulting, something you can not do on your opponents turn.