51606
Post by: TheCrazyCryptek
Dolmen Gates
As far as I am concerned, the creation of the Dolmen Gates lore was just plain lazy on Matt Wards part(THIS IS NOT A MATT WARD HATER THREAD).
Allow me to explain why this is just a lack of thinking things through. The old and new fluff indicates that Necrons have the ability to create working and stable wormholes from point A to point B(examples; Monoliths and Night Scythes). The Necron necessity for the Dolmen Gates is because they do not have faster than light travel(as of the new codex anyway). This is what is total bull-malarky. I am no scientist, but it seems to me that making a ship go even 1000x faster than the speed of light is way WAY easier than creating and maintaining a wormhole.
One of the best parts of the old Necron fluff was that Necron ships could travel incredible distances in no time flat. This was also one of the major things that made them so dangerous. In Hell Forged(a Soul Drinkers novel) an Ad Mech fleet attempts to flee a Necron fleet by making a random warp jump. After a few hours of warp travel they emerge back into realspace, only to find that same Necron fleet waiting for them.
Every thing else about the new Necron fluff, I like. Lords with personality, cool. Immortals and Lychguard that can think for themselves, cool. Even alittle bit of Necron infighting(such as it is), im ok with that. Dolmen gates just doesn't make sense and doesn't belong. Period.
Your thoughts Dakka?
45116
Post by: bombboy1252
I just hate the name "Dolmen gate"....That's as far as my hate extends...
32410
Post by: Azure
The new book does not specifically say that they no longer have FTL travel, just that they also use the Webway to hop around when needed. It does mention that they have slow tomb ships that travel the stars, but compared to the massive size of the galaxy, moving at FTL is still decently slow
21066
Post by: BluntmanDC
Seeing as no scientist has even come close to proposing how to either go massively faster than the speed of light without destroying the universe or creating a stable wormhole, we have no idea how hard it would be in reality if we don't even know how hard it would be theoretically.
45327
Post by: CalgarsPimpHand
If they can create stable wormholes to wherever they want to go, they already have the capability for FTL travel, without breaking the laws of physics (more or less I guess). Just open a wormhole in System A with the other end in System B and fly through it as fast as you can, and you'll get there way faster than the speed of light. They don't need the webway, and it didn't need to be written that way. I agree with OP.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
I am fine with the gates, but as a weapon. I could see the gates being made and used as a way for them to get into the webway and ambush or hit the enemy unseen. After all the webway was the old ones way of travel. Having a way to breach that would have been the turning point in the war.
I do not see it as the main way of travel, I see it as a weapon. A tool to hit those who use the webway. Now to me you do not colonize the whole or even a large portion of the galaxy without some type of FTL. I like what I have heard of the old drives, but I like even more the idea od wormholes as they already use that technology.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
Whether we call it a "wormhole" a "warp gate" or a "flubbly-wubbly tube" is irrelevant... in the 40K universe, if you're achieving FTL, you're using the Warp in some way, shape or form, even the non-Psychic Tau are "skipping" their FTL ships off the Warp like stones on a pond. Even the Eldar Webway is "the Warp", it simply makes use of it in a different way that makes it far less likely that you'll be eaten by daemons (not immune to, but far less likely). Dolmen Gates work basically the same way, they take advantage of the non-space functions of the Warp to establish a tunnel through it from Point A to B. Even if you just stroll down the tube, taking your sweet time, you're traveling faster than light by the time you reach the exit gate.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
I am pretty sure the Dolmen Gates actively brake open a section of the webway. Not the warp or not making a new tunnel but forcing a way into the existing webway.
39550
Post by: Psienesis
Could be, though even the Webway is a network of stable, safe tunnels through the Warp in some strange xeno fashion or another... who can guess at the ways of the Eldar?
The Dolmen Gates are described in a few sources as tunnels of green light and the illusion of motion. I would imagine like standing in a plastic habi-trail tube while a 70s sci-fi effect went on all around you in green.
35006
Post by: Medium of Death
I don't particularly like that new element of fluff.
Old fluff was better. Necrons now are essentially tied to the webway and are useless without it.
36276
Post by: Zweischneid
Problem with the old fluff was that there was no fluff.
40K has no faster-than-light travel. Interstellar travel depends on the warp, which at the same time presents the greatest danger. This dilemma is pretty central to the 40K universe.
OldCrons just ignored it and yet still travelled FTL .. well .. just .. because. Hell, in a way even the webway is a cheat on the basic premise of the universe.. though at least one that's been fleshed out a bit.
11
Post by: ph34r
It's definitely a big change, but I think it's better and more fitting with the universe.
Before that, Necrons had FTL "just cause", which should really be an auto-win in galactic warfare.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
What gets me is that the new codex says they have to use the gates for FTL, yet have wormhole capability. That is the one thing that confuses me..
39550
Post by: Psienesis
Well, they do. The Dolmen Gates allow them to travel between Points A and B faster than light, in the physical universe, would be able to.
Let's say you're going from Earth to Fenris. Light from Sol would normally take, let's say, ten thousand years to get there. With a Dolmen Gate, it takes you five minutes. This is FTL travel.
51606
Post by: TheCrazyCryptek
When I said FTL travel, I was referring to the ability of a ship, without using a portal of some kind, to move faster than the speed of light.
Two things in response to be above.
@BluntmanDC - They actually have a working theory on faster than light travel using warp tech(similar to Star Trek). Its a good read, I highly recommend it.
@Zweischneid - There is fluff on the Necron shipsand their speeds, its in various books(Such as Hell Forged) and in the Necron section of Battlefleet Gothic stuff. Necrons could go way faster than the speed of light and didn't need any portals to do it. Which I loved, thus the reason for this thread.
55831
Post by: DrimGark
I never really like the old-crons. They felt like the 40k fluff equivalent of the kid who, when playing guns or video game characters or whatever, said people "missed me" every time, or claimed to have a force field. There was some fluff there, but I was pretty meh on the faction as a whole.
The first bit of necron fluff I enjoyed was the Fall of Damnos book, with their personalities, ambitions, flaws, and infighting. Consequently, I enjoy the new-crons quite a bit more.
For me at least the, "we go super fast for no cost or consequence" thing was part of the personal "meh." The dolmen gate bit feels more interesting to me. That's not to say I rage-hated the old-crons, or am in love with the new ones, in general or specifically regarding their transportation. It was more, general ambivelence before, mild interest now.
51606
Post by: TheCrazyCryptek
DrimGark wrote:I never really like the old-crons. They felt like the 40k fluff equivalent of the kid who, when playing guns or video game characters or whatever, said people "missed me" every time, or claimed to have a force field. There was some fluff there, but I was pretty meh on the faction as a whole.
The first bit of necron fluff I enjoyed was the Fall of Damnos book, with their personalities, ambitions, flaws, and infighting. Consequently, I enjoy the new-crons quite a bit more.
For me at least the, "we go super fast for no cost or consequence" thing was part of the personal "meh." The dolmen gate bit feels more interesting to me. That's not to say I rage-hated the old-crons, or am in love with the new ones, in general or specifically regarding their transportation. It was more, general ambivelence before, mild interest now.
I had not thought about it like that. I have to admit, I know part of me dislikes this new part of the fluff is because it gimps the Necrons where before they where god-like.
My point still stands though, its the science that doesn't make sense.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
I would have no issue with the wormhole thing,it could more or less work something like the Tau and would fit the fluff as they found it in some derelict ships and engineered it best they could.
I could see something like that or even the old drives or even some bubble dimition wrapped around the ship. All these are technologies the necrons currently use.
I would leave the gate, but yeah they need an FTL travel all their own.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am fine with the gates, but as a weapon. I could see the gates being made and used as a way for them to get into the webway and ambush or hit the enemy unseen. After all the webway was the old ones way of travel. Having a way to breach that would have been the turning point in the war.
I do not see it as the main way of travel, I see it as a weapon. A tool to hit those who use the webway. Now to me you do not colonize the whole or even a large portion of the galaxy without some type of FTL. I like what I have heard of the old drives, but I like even more the idea od wormholes as they already use that technology.
Exactly. It should have remained a tactical asset for use against the Eldar. Ward just got carried away with the whole concept, it seems. I would prefer it that they use their supposed mastery of time and space to just build a wormhole of their own instead of hijacking the webway and having to rush through it before they get locked in there.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Exactly. It should have remained a tactical asset for use against the Eldar. Ward just got carried away with the whole concept, it seems.
Agreed, it was a really cool concept that fit with them suddenly gaining the upper hand with the Old ones.
36276
Post by: Zweischneid
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:When I said FTL travel, I was referring to the ability of a ship, without using a portal of some kind, to move faster than the speed of light.
Two things in response to be above.
@BluntmanDC - They actually have a working theory on faster than light travel using warp tech(similar to Star Trek). Its a good read, I highly recommend it.
@Zweischneid - There is fluff on the Necron shipsand their speeds, its in various books(Such as Hell Forged) and in the Necron section of Battlefleet Gothic stuff. Necrons could go way faster than the speed of light and didn't need any portals to do it. Which I loved, thus the reason for this thread.
But that "Star Trek-style" Warp is not 40K Warp. The former is about "warping" (curving, bending, whatever) space-time, the latter is an alternative dimension/plane of existance inhabited by humanities dark desires made manifest.
Old Necron fluff has FTL due to inertialess drive, which likely wouldn't work because even if a physical body would be rendered inertialess and thereby had its mass reduced to zero, it would still be limited to exactly the speed of light in classical relativity (e.g. the speed of light photons, which do, infact, move inertialess due to their lack of mass).
39550
Post by: Psienesis
Perhaps the Dolmen Gates were simply a tactical advantage against the Eldar and the Old Ones... but that was millions of years ago. Do you not think that they'd further develop the technology since that time?
18297
Post by: Exalted Pariah
Google Reactionless-drive, that's what MY necrons have 
39550
Post by: Psienesis
So you renamed their inertia drive. Good job.
40749
Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I had not thought about it like that. I have to admit, I know part of me dislikes this new part of the fluff is because it gimps the Necrons where before they where god-like.
That was the problem. The old Necrons would have won. There was no question of it. They had their physical gods wandering around (admittedly doing pretty much nothing, but they could have been single-handedly destroying the Imperium), they had such vastly superiority maneuverability that should never been defeated in naval battle and generally the best technology. Why did they ever lose? Because for some reason they didn't concentrate their forces. The old background made no sense because the Necrons should have been unstoppable and inexplicably didn't use their technology properly.
Saying that going (sufficiently) faster-than-light, a feat that only the Tyranids have truely managed in 40K, is easier than creating a wormhole is complete conjecture.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
I tend to like the new stuff, as they are not Gods, super powerful and damned capable of hurting about anyone, but not the auto wins guys. I agree the old stuff did need a change as the ending was forgone one they fully woke up. Game over man, game over.
For me the "FTL" they use should be faster then say what the Tau use, maybe on pare with true warp travel times, but still not as fast(well instant) as the webway. Which means the Gates have a reason to exist and still could but used if need be.
55250
Post by: Actinium
Don't flayed ones hang out in a not warp dimension that works exactly like the warp just it's a big void instead of a writhing hellscape?
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
If I recall it was the domain of one of the dead gods. Not the warp but "Elsewhere" some kind of Demi-dimension or something. The Necron seem to be all about time/space, multi dimension and wormhole tech.
I myself can simply not except the idea they colonized the whole of the galaxy or even a large part of it with "Torch ships" much less held together small dynasties and ran interstellar wars. The warp is based off mental power, emotion and thought. It is not all that out there to say other dimensions other then the warp are out there.
45234
Post by: Void__Dragon
Psienesis wrote:Whether we call it a "wormhole" a "warp gate" or a "flubbly-wubbly tube" is irrelevant... in the 40K universe, if you're achieving FTL, you're using the Warp in some way, shape or form, even the non-Psychic Tau are "skipping" their FTL ships off the Warp like stones on a pond. Even the Eldar Webway is "the Warp", it simply makes use of it in a different way that makes it far less likely that you'll be eaten by daemons (not immune to, but far less likely). Dolmen Gates work basically the same way, they take advantage of the non-space functions of the Warp to establish a tunnel through it from Point A to B. Even if you just stroll down the tube, taking your sweet time, you're traveling faster than light by the time you reach the exit gate.
So I take it that you've never actually heard of the Tyranids?
But of course it is perfectly fine for the space bugs to have FTL capabilities not relying on the Warp, but the space zombies can't, oh feth no.
It is perfectly fine for a super soldier wielding a monomolcularly sharp yet also indestructible chainsaw sword to exist, but feth no Necron technology has to make sense.
People love to bitch about the superiority of Necron naval fleets, but ignore that in the lore Necron ships never attacked in mass, and were always outnumbered. But feth no, Necrons aren't allowed to be pound for pound the best at something, even if lore-wise it makes perfect sense.
I wouldn't have been adverse to the Inertialess Drives being toned down to not being instantaneous travel, but making the masters of the material universe have to rely upon the Warp to get around was a really crappy move, and de-emphasized that theme.
51606
Post by: TheCrazyCryptek
Void__Dragon wrote:Psienesis wrote:Whether we call it a "wormhole" a "warp gate" or a "flubbly-wubbly tube" is irrelevant... in the 40K universe, if you're achieving FTL, you're using the Warp in some way, shape or form, even the non-Psychic Tau are "skipping" their FTL ships off the Warp like stones on a pond. Even the Eldar Webway is "the Warp", it simply makes use of it in a different way that makes it far less likely that you'll be eaten by daemons (not immune to, but far less likely). Dolmen Gates work basically the same way, they take advantage of the non-space functions of the Warp to establish a tunnel through it from Point A to B. Even if you just stroll down the tube, taking your sweet time, you're traveling faster than light by the time you reach the exit gate.
So I take it that you've never actually heard of the Tyranids?
But of course it is perfectly fine for the space bugs to have FTL capabilities not relying on the Warp, but the space zombies can't, oh feth no.
It is perfectly fine for a super soldier wielding a monomolcularly sharp yet also indestructible chainsaw sword to exist, but feth no Necron technology has to make sense.
People love to bitch about the superiority of Necron naval fleets, but ignore that in the lore Necron ships never attacked in mass, and were always outnumbered. But feth no, Necrons aren't allowed to be pound for pound the best at something, even if lore-wise it makes perfect sense.
I wouldn't have been adverse to the Inertialess Drives being toned down to not being instantaneous travel, but making the masters of the material universe have to rely upon the Warp to get around was a really crappy move, and de-emphasized that theme.
Well said. My disdain for this new fluff stims from the fact that this part of Necron lore was changed because it gave them a serious advantage over Games Workshops baby(SPEHZ MAHREENS!). Lord knows, that can't be allowed to happen.
That is just my opinion, but I really do beleive it may be at least in part, true.
51661
Post by: NL_Cirrus
Zweischneid wrote:
Old Necron fluff has FTL due to inertialess drive, which likely wouldn't work because even if a physical body would be rendered inertialess and thereby had its mass reduced to zero, it would still be limited to exactly the speed of light in classical relativity (e.g. the speed of light photons, which do, infact, move inertialess due to their lack of mass).
It is my understanding that it is not "impossible" to travel faster that light but rather if you do you experience time dilation which makes it pointless as from the perspective of the galaxy your actually taking a lot longer to get to your destination than you would otherwise.
That being said, given that the Necrons are masters of space and time (apparently more masters of time then space given recent fluff) they could probably use their time control equipment to cancel the time dilation effects out effectively allowing them to go FTL just by putting massive engines on a relatively small craft.
40749
Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Void__Dragon wrote:
But of course it is perfectly fine for the space bugs to have FTL capabilities not relying on the Warp, but the space zombies can't, oh feth no.
Actually, most people seem to dislike that retcon. Tyranid Narvhals are also much slower than the Warp drives of other factions.
People love to bitch about the superiority of Necron naval fleets, but ignore that in the lore Necron ships never attacked in mass, and were always outnumbered. But feth no, Necrons aren't allowed to be pound for pound the best at something, even if lore-wise it makes perfect sense.
The fact that they were outnumbered so often never made sense in the old background. They should have just concentrated their forces, but were apparently not trying their hardest and instead were just playing around. Which was dumb. The old Necrons should've already won or been embroiled in a devastating civil war (between the Deceiver and the Nightbringer) by the 41st millenium but neither was suggested to be the case. The new background actually explains why they haven't destroyed every other faction already.
49408
Post by: McNinja
I also hate the Dolmen gates. The Necrons are supposed to be masters of the physical universe. They shouldn't even need Dolmen gates/the webway because by the time they destroyed the C'tan they were already Stargating around with their Night Scythes and Monoliths.
We have theories today on how FTL travel is possible. How did the Necrons not even begin to pick up on anything even remotely close to our theories?
Inertialess Drives made far more sense than the C'tan saying "oh hey guys, guess what? we can now use the webway. Sweet, huh?" Yeah, it went against the whole "dependency on the warp" thing, but the Necrons already went/go against many of the 40k conventions (like that whole "dying" thing, being entirely I2, having warp-negating fields on a planetary scale). Why should the Necrons have dependency on the warp or webway when the entirety of their fluff makes known their disdain for the Old Ones, their creations, and the Warp?
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
McNinja wrote:I also hate the Dolmen gates. The Necrons are supposed to be masters of the physical universe. They shouldn't even need Dolmen gates/the webway because by the time they destroyed the C'tan they were already Stargating around with their Night Scythes and Monoliths.
We have theories today on how FTL travel is possible. How did the Necrons not even begin to pick up on anything even remotely close to our theories?
Inertialess Drives made far more sense than the C'tan saying "oh hey guys, guess what? we can now use the webway. Sweet, huh?" Yeah, it went against the whole "dependency on the warp" thing, but the Necrons already went/go against many of the 40k conventions (like that whole "dying" thing, being entirely I2, having warp-negating fields on a planetary scale). Why should the Necrons have dependency on the warp or webway when the entirety of their fluff makes known their disdain for the Old Ones, their creations, and the Warp?
Because Ward can't write good grimdark. No really, he can't. When he tries to be grimdark, he always does so in the most hamfisted, and illogical manner that will end up in the reader scratching his head over what the feth just happened. This is why we got Draigo This is why we got Noble Necrons This is why we got Mephiston This is why we got Bloodtide
49408
Post by: McNinja
I agree, and though I hate the Bloodtide (I'm assuming the one in the GK codex) like most Ultima fans hate Ultima 9, as in, to the point of me just not accepting the fact that it exists, I am not entirely put off by Noble Necrons. At least they all aren't robot Tyranids now.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
I don't have the codex in hand, but if I remember correctly, the part talking about the Dolmen Gates (crappy name) explicitly mentioned that without them, the dynasties would be pretty much restricted to their systems. Not 100% sure though.
Also, the Flayed Ones and Deathmarks hide themselves in pocket dimensions, which is totally different from the Warp... which further gets me thinking that Necrons should, and could travel without having to use the Eldar's decaying transport system (webway). If pocket dimensions are possible, why oh why would they need something as dangerous and erratic as the Warp? Or even a safe part of it?
Noble Necrons are my reason for playing my Necrons "old fluff", using whatever good parts the new fluff had to offer (not much, indeed).
In the end I tend to think that all this did actually happen so that no army would look stronger than the Marines... no offense to Marine players intended.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
angelshade00 wrote:I don't have the codex in hand, but if I remember correctly, the part talking about the Dolmen Gates (crappy name) explicitly mentioned that without them, the dynasties would be pretty much restricted to their systems. Not 100% sure though.
Also, the Flayed Ones and Deathmarks hide themselves in pocket dimensions, which is totally different from the Warp... which further gets me thinking that Necrons should, and could travel without having to use the Eldar's decaying transport system (webway). If pocket dimensions are possible, why oh why would they need something as dangerous and erratic as the Warp? Or even a safe part of it?
Exactly.
This is what baffles me about their reliance on the Dolmen Gates. They clearly have other means of transport, why should they waste their time with the webway?
I think this was Ward's attempt to be dark and edgy, but it just came across as being dumb.
49408
Post by: McNinja
What's even worse is that we know how to go FTL. If we had the power source (and money), we could make spaceships that go faster than light. In fact, one prominent theory is actually inertialess. It was on an episode of Sci-fi science with Michio Kaku. You basically pull and push against space, so you aren't moving, the space around you is. Or, you know, wormholes.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
McNinja wrote:What's even worse is that we know how to go FTL. If we had the power source (and money), we could make spaceships that go faster than light. In fact, one prominent theory is actually inertialess. It was on an episode of Sci-fi science with Michio Kaku. You basically pull and push against space, so you aren't moving, the space around you is. Or, you know, wormholes.
Wormholes aren't actually FTL though.
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.
It is possible to cheat by making wormholes, folding reality or something like that.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.
That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course  . Possibly never too .
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
angelshade00 wrote:CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.
That's not necessarily true you know. There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course .
No conclusive evidence. They still haven't proved it IIRC. I hope they don't. I'm studying relativity atm, and that relies on the speed of light being the fastest 
41998
Post by: angelshade00
CthuluIsSpy wrote:angelshade00 wrote:CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.
That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course .
In conclusive evidence. They still haven't proved it IIRC.
I hope they don't. I'm studying relativity atm, and that relies on the speed of light being the fastest
what a bummer! I wouldn't worry I think it's easier to convince Matt Ward to stop writing fluff, than proving this.
On second thought...
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
I still think the gates make perfect sense. As a tactical weapon they are. They do not however, fit as a main FTL method. Its an example of a good idea that needed a bit more work and you know...freaking editors or someone else for input.
GW really needs to stop doing the one man Codex.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
I'm not actually sure it was entirely a one man codex. It would take an entire team in order to organize the concepts and balance them out, compile the data and photographs etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if they allocated the task of writing the fluff to one man, however. Though they wouldn't give him complete control; I would expect that they gave Ward a direction and he followed it his way. Or something like that.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
See even one man doing the fluff for a book that size is a no ,no. Someone needs to be in control and then it should be parceled out and then playtested and ran by who ever is in charge. all 40k codex seem to be one man jobs. Which is why there is so many issues with them.
I myself think the Necrons book had great Idea's and was pretty good over all, however it needed some work to flush things out better.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Hunterindarkness wrote:See even one man doing the fluff for a book that size is a no ,no. Someone needs to be in control and then it should be parceled out and then playtested and ran by who ever is in charge. all 40k codex seem to be one man jobs. Which is why there is so many issues with them.
I myself think the Necrons book had great Idea's and was pretty good over all, however it needed some work to flush things out better.
Agreed. And for someone to fix Ward's writing style.
I mean, it's like a bad fanfic!
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Hunterindarkness wrote:See even one man doing the fluff for a book that size is a no ,no. Someone needs to be in control and then it should be parceled out and then playtested and ran by who ever is in charge. all 40k codex seem to be one man jobs. Which is why there is so many issues with them.
I myself think the Necrons book had great Idea's and was pretty good over all, however it needed some work to flush things out better.
Agreed. And for someone to fix Ward's writing style.
I mean, it's like a bad fanfic!
Yep, see this is why you do things in groups and have editors. I mean he has some good idea's, the Gate for example, simply great idea for a tactile weapon. But he fell to in love with it and there was no one to bounce idea's off of or give other ideas. I think many of the "Issues" with ward would vanish if they had him as part of a team and not doing everything one man. I mean I liked the Necron book, but honestly it read like a rough draft then a finished product. If he had taken that and had a group of people to work with and such, it would have been a much better product.
49408
Post by: McNinja
CthuluIsSpy wrote:angelshade00 wrote:CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.
That's not necessarily true you know. There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course .
No conclusive evidence. They still haven't proved it IIRC. I hope they don't. I'm studying relativity atm, and that relies on the speed of light being the fastest
[intense sarcasm incoming]Yeah, me too. Because Eintstein knew every facet of how our universe works, right? Oh wait, he just created a series of theories that have only barely held up thus far. It is entirely possible that one day Einstein is proved wrong in some way. He was brilliant, that's for darn sure, but one man did not solve the mysteries of how the universe works. And yeah, Wormholes technically aren't FTL, but hey. They get you places fast. In theory. angelshade00 wrote:CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.
That's not necessarily true you know. There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course . Possibly never too .
It turned out that Neutrinos did not actually travel FTL. There was a extremely tiny time variation between where it started and where it ended, making it seem as though it got there before light did. CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'm not actually sure it was entirely a one man codex. It would take an entire team in order to organize the concepts and balance them out, compile the data and photographs etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if they allocated the task of writing the fluff to one man, however. Though they wouldn't give him complete control; I would expect that they gave Ward a direction and he followed it his way. Or something like that.
Actually, underneath the Table of Contents, there's a listing of everyone who worked on the book. Unless GW just likes listing people's names in books they had no part in. I think Ward simply had oversight on everything, and because this wasn't a Grey Knight codex, it's a bit more lackluster in its creativity. I mean, look at the difference between the GK and Necron codex. In the C: GK, there's pages of fluff, however well or poorly written, pages upon pages of unique wargear, a bunch of special characters (all with something unique about them), units that are unique in their abilities, etc. Someone, perhaps Ward, perhaps not, spent many hours crafting all of this, and even though it might be powerful or poorly written, someone clearly threw themselves fully into making this codex as awesome as they could. The C:N is not like that. Yeah, there's fluff, and it's decent. But everything feels small and limited; from unit choices to wargear, it feels like there wasn't the sort of passion put into this codex that was put into C: GK. I've written my own codex. I've got 45 pages of units, fluff, and wargear rolling about on my computer. But if there's one thing I've learned from writing that, it's that if you don't want to write something, but are forced to (whether you force yourself or a publisher/boss does), you'll eek something out, and it won't be all that good. Perhaps because of your basic skills as a writer it'll be better than average, but it won't compare to your best work. But if you do want to write, if you're "feeling it", you will write like there's no tomorrow. The more you care, the better it will be. And frankly, I doubt Matt Ward and co. (mostly Ward) cared that much about C:N. Or Ward pulled a George Lucas and had editors upon editors pouring over his GK codex, and when it turned out to be a hit, they let him have more free reign over C:N, and because there wasn't the same oversight and editing, Ward put out something between a travesty and a great codex.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
McNinja wrote:CthuluIsSpy wrote:angelshade00 wrote:CthuluIsSpy wrote:
In fact, the whole concept of FTL is silly since nothing can go Faster Than Light.
That's not necessarily true you know.
There is evidence that neutrinos may be able to actually achieve FTL speeds under certain circumstances. Not proof yet, of course .
No conclusive evidence. They still haven't proved it IIRC.
I hope they don't. I'm studying relativity atm, and that relies on the speed of light being the fastest
Yeah, me too. Because Eintstein knew every facet of how our universe works, right? Oh wait, he just created a series of theories that have only barely held up thus far. It is entirely possible that one day Einstein is proved wrong in some way. He was brilliant, that's for darn sure, but one man did not solve the mysteries of how the universe works.
I'm not saying he did, and I am well aware that the theory of relativity is just a theory.
However, if it is dis-proven, that is effectively several hours of my life gone, and I will have to spend some more time learning it all over again.
Not that big of a deal, really...but it would be very irritating.
McNinja wrote:CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'm not actually sure it was entirely a one man codex. It would take an entire team in order to organize the concepts and balance them out, compile the data and photographs etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if they allocated the task of writing the fluff to one man, however. Though they wouldn't give him complete control; I would expect that they gave Ward a direction and he followed it his way. Or something like that.
Actually, underneath the Table of Contents, there's a listing of everyone who worked on the book. Unless GW just likes listing people's names in books they had no part in. I think Ward simply had oversight on everything, and because this wasn't a Grey Knight codex, it's a bit more lackluster in its creativity. I mean, look at the difference between the GK and Necron codex.
In the C: GK, there's pages of fluff, however well or poorly written, pages upon pages of unique wargear, a bunch of special characters (all with something unique about them), units that are unique in their abilities, etc. Someone, perhaps Ward, perhaps not, spent many hours crafting all of this, and even though it might be powerful or poorly written, someone clearly threw themselves fully into making this codex as awesome as they could.
The C:N is not like that. Yeah, there's fluff, and it's decent. But everything feels small and limited; from unit choices to wargear, it feels like there wasn't the sort of passion put into this codex that was put into C: GK.
I've written my own codex. I've got 45 pages of units, fluff, and wargear rolling about on my computer. But if there's one thing I've learned from writing that, it's that if you don't want to write something, but are forced to (whether you force yourself or a publisher/boss does), you'll eek something out, and it won't be all that good. Perhaps because of your basic skills as a writer it'll be better than average, but it won't compare to your best work. But if you do want to write, if you're "feeling it", you will write like there's no tomorrow. The more you care, the better it will be. And frankly, I doubt Matt Ward and co. (mostly Ward) cared that much about C:N. Or Ward pulled a George Lucas and had editors upon editors pouring over his GK codex, and when it turned out to be a hit, they let him have more free reign over C:N, and because there wasn't the same oversight and editing, Ward put out something between a travesty and a great codex.
That...makes a lot of sense actually. It would certainly explain the whole Dolmen Gate thing; he might have been too apathetic to make it so that it actually made some logically sense.
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Post by: McNinja
You know, I don't study Relativity (math is not my forte), so anyone who can actually do the math required gets massive props in my book. However, I've always approached science with a sense of wonder, and I would be thrilled to find out that while Einstein may not have been entirely right about Light being the fastest thing ever, there's something new and exceedingly awesome to find out about.
37755
Post by: Harriticus
This is actually one of the smallest problems of the Newcrons, it's just a huge mess.
It was probably because of GW's attempts to downgrade the Necrons. A galactic-level threat to the new organic races became small self-warring localized kingdoms on the Eastern Fringe. He took away the C'tan, unity, and now their fleet capabilities. There was a deliberate attempt to make the Necrons less-threatening, more "human", and nobler. This is all connected to that.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
I am not seeing how they are less a threat really. They still even if they only use the gates are a fleet threat, except now like the Eldra they can pop in and out at will.
They do not have the " auto I win " any more but are still a very real and powerful threat.
49408
Post by: McNinja
If that was their idea, then the Dolmen gate part was executed poorly. Now they're just Eldar in that respect.
What happened to making movement unique? IoM and co. (SoB, SM, and GKs) use warp travel, Eldar and DE use Webways, Tyranids use Narvhals, and Necrons use FTL travel and wormholes. I mean, how hard is that? The Necrons set up a system of gates, connected by wormholes, all across the galaxy. Over time, they lost some, some were destroyed, etc, etc. Bam. UNiqwue way of travel, wtill isolated. I don't care if Stargate did it first, it's a good freaking idea, and a better writer would have done so much more than "well, they can use the webway now."
Actually, you know what? Mine do. All of my Necrons are the 40k version of Stargate's Ancients, minus that whole "ascended" and "travelling from galaxy to galaxy because why not" thing.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
I am totally down with a gate system. I mean they already have and use the tech on a smaller scale. I would not make it "gate" looking. More like an obelisk or priamid
I am gonna so steal that. I plan to use all three. The "FTL" for more IoM travel speed. A gate system for point A to Point B fast movement and the Gates for a tactical weapon to hit those who use the webways.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am not seeing how they are less a threat really. They still even if they only use the gates are a fleet threat, except now like the Eldra they can pop in and out at will.
They do not have the " auto I win " any more but are still a very real and powerful threat.
Come on now, let's admit they are way downgraded on almost all levels.
They were, as Harriticus said, a galaxy-level threat, and indeed the ultimate threat (kill the body, consume the soul), now they are just another baddie... more like neutral actually.
They took away the only god-level creatures in the whole setting that actually walked among the stars in physical form, the C'Tan, and not only replaced them with shadows of themselves (fluff-wise always) but actually made the Necrons not wanting to have anything to do with them.
And finally, the fleet threat was greatly toned down. At some point in the new codex it talks about some Space Marine super-duper hero who was humbled by Imotekh (don't remember the story right now) that his fleet ambushed him, and while Imotekh fled, the Marine's fleet destroyed all the enemy ships. I don't have the codex at hand so I don't remember exactly (I think it actually mentioned the Necron ships were too slow...). In the old book, there was some piece of fluff I recall that stated that it took half a fleet to take down a single Necron warship, and not a big one either, and at a great expense too.
So yes, they are downgraded, fluff-wise at least, on almost all fronts. Yes, maybe they have a little more depth to them, it's true, but I really believe all this could have been done without so much loss of fluff-power!
Thanks for staying tuned!!! 
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Actually, I would dare say the C'tan are still still pretty powerful. They may be weaker than before, but they can still warp reality.
And it was a large BT fleet against 1 Tombship, that may have been escorted by some smaller vessels.
Its not really clear, but it wasn't a whole necron fleet verses a whole BT fleet.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
I also remembered a part were the fluff said that the Tyranid Hive Fleets actually avoided entire areas of space were Necrons were known to operate.
50044
Post by: Connor MacLeod
angelshade00 wrote:Come on now, let's admit they are way downgraded on almost all levels.
They were, as Harriticus said, a galaxy-level threat, and indeed the ultimate threat (kill the body, consume the soul), now they are just another baddie... more like neutral actually.
They're not a galaxy level threat anymore? Back before 5th we actually had no idea of how big the Necron threat was. there WAS NO INFORMATION. It could have been a galactic thrat, or it could have been hundreds of worlds (which was the largest pre-5th indication of how much territory the Necrons actually owned.) which would make them slightly more threatening than a single Hive Fleet. Serious, but not galaxy killing.
With 5th edition, we now know there are potentially MILLIONS of Necron tomb worlds, each with millions, if not billions of Necron Warriors. Trillions to quadrillions of warriors, each of which is considerably more powerful than your typical guardsman. Billions to trillions of Immortals. Countless other enemy threats. They want to relcaim the galaxy. They want to dissect living beings to study them and become living beings themselves. at BEST they may merely enslave us all to their whims, and given the way they treated their own race I'm not sure that's a better fate. Their science and engineering can do some truly insane things, up to and including time travel and causing stars to explode.
Seriously, what part of that does not scream GALAXY LEVEL THREAT? They're not all awake yet? well so what? The Tyranids are supposed to be a galaxy level trheat and THEY'RE NOT HERE YET either. Chaos is supposed to be a galaxy level threat but they havne't quite worked up to that scope either. If the Orks ever unite the galaxy is doomed, but they haven't quite managed that. I would also note that as far as old necrons go they weren't original, nor were the C'tan. The idea of some vast, powerful threat composed of soldiers that are superior to individual humans and can regenerate and want to eat us is not new: that could cover Chaos, Tyranids, and in certain ways the Dark Eldar.
They took away the only god-level creatures in the whole setting that actually walked among the stars in physical form, the C'Tan, and not only replaced them with shadows of themselves (fluff-wise always) but actually made the Necrons not wanting to have anything to do with them.
They did not 'take away' the C'tan. They're still around, still a possible threat (some are at least), they're just not the only bit of flavour text or personality that the Necrons have (not that oyu can say the old C'tan contributed much for personality aside form the Deceiver.) Hell I'm pretty sure the new codex even mentions that there might be Shards floating around that aren't captured or controlled. Enough of the fluff (old and new) certainly allow for that.
And as an aside: They DO have some forms of FTL, at least in limited form. We saw the Undying One in Dark Creed with his FTL. and the Necrons in HEllforged had FTL. The Cryptek in 'Fall of Damnos' was able to travel billions of metres in a nanosecond through his own powers. They HAVE other forms of FTL other than the Dolmen gates (as if wormhole teleprotation and however the heck flayers get around wasn't example enouhg.) but its not neccesarily a uniform threat.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
angelshade00 wrote:
Come on now, let's admit they are way downgraded on almost all levels.
They were, as Harriticus said, a galaxy-level threat, and indeed the ultimate threat (kill the body, consume the soul), now they are just another baddie... more like neutral actually.
Still a massive galaxy wide threat. There are millions of Necron worlds, each more then a match for about anything that gets thrown at it. Only a tiny, I mean tiny fraction have even woken up. Once they all wake up, even if they are not allied with each other, they spell doom for any other race. They will take back what they had before, the will enslave or annihilate anyone that gets in the way and as it stands there isn't a single other power currently inside the glaxy that can really hope to stop them.
angelshade00 wrote:
They took away the only god-level creatures in the whole setting that actually walked among the stars in physical form, the C'Tan, and not only replaced them with shadows of themselves (fluff-wise always) but actually made the Necrons not wanting to have anything to do with them.
This is somewhat incorrect. They are still there, still the most powerful thing outside of a full on warp god and are now the Necron's bitches. They use them as slaves, however they damned well wish and if it acts up? Well it gets placed in a deep , dark closest for a few hundred years till it minds daddy. They are not gone, they are once more proof of Necron might and the level of power they can bring to bear.
angelshade00 wrote:
And finally, the fleet threat was greatly toned down. At some point in the new codex it talks about some Space Marine super-duper hero who was humbled by Imotekh (don't remember the story right now) that his fleet ambushed him, and while Imotekh fled, the Marine's fleet destroyed all the enemy ships. I don't have the codex at hand so I don't remember exactly (I think it actually mentioned the Necron ships were too slow...). In the old book, there was some piece of fluff I recall that stated that it took half a fleet to take down a single Necron warship, and not a big one either, and at a great expense too.
That was a single tomb ship vs the whole SM fleet. The necron ship was not even destroyed by the fleet, merely damaged and with the shields down they simply abandoned the ship and the Sm did little real damage then the lose of that ship,, which they auto piloted into a star. It wasn't a huge win, it was the act of a angry man that could not achieve the victory he craved. Fleet on fleet, the necrons win, hands down. Fleet on one tomb ship, the fleet wins, but not without loses.
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Post by: Stonerhino
"Doomed to isolation" is a subjective statement. And one that does not limit the Necrons to sublight travel. Just a much slower then "Crossing the Galaxy in a blink of an eye" speed.
Think of it like this:
The Necron intergalactic comunication Network is destroyed (5th Ed Rule Book). So they have lost the ability to comunicate large distances quikly. This means that they are relieing on the next fastest method to comunicate, the Webway. Which just needs to be faster then their FTL travel. The loss of the use of the webway limits their sphere of infulence more. Because now they are limited to their newly reduced FTL travel.
It's like this:
Ignoring the internet and radios.
The telecomunication networks are destroyed (Theory). We then relie on the mail system to send information. But then the mail system is also destroyed. Now we have to travel what ever distance there is to get the information to the next party.
That does not mean we are limited to walking speed. We could still drive or fly. But in that scenario most people would say that our cities would be isolated.
Expand that into a galactic scale, were travel times can be week, years, decades, ect. And we would have the Necron's situation without the Dolmen Gates.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
Firstly, thanks to everyone who bothered to read my endless ranting . But I may have been misunderstood. Maybe my fault too. So here's some more ranting
1. Of course the Necrons are a threat to everyone, everywhere. Their numbers are near limitless, their technology supreme, their intellect vast. What I meant to say by mentioning they were not a galaxy threat anymore, was their mindset. Once, they were actively threatening the galaxy. They used the, somewhat crude, but highly appealing (well, to me at least ) motto: we hate you all for being alive, and will kill you and feed your souls to our gods. Cute. Now, as the codex states, they may simply ignore a system if it has little military, scientific or other value, or if the system complies with their demands.
2. The C'Tan are indeed still around and still pretty mighty, but they are not gods anymore. They are but shards that keep part of their powers contained. Like a genie in a bottle really. Whenever the Necrons are in a bind, they rub the Shard and poof! a C'Tan appears and grants them their wish. Before, they had their place in the pantheon as all gods of the other races did, only theirs was a place that, for me at least, could only be filled by them. They were Lovecraftian. They transcend the boundaries of reality as we know them and actually aided the Necrontyr race transcend them as well. Most pieces of fluff (both old and new) add to this Lovecraftian feel with sciences that seem more like magic, strange geometry etc.
3. As for the fleet threat, I don't have either the new or old codexes with me and I cannot remember the part I talked about earlier.
Note, I understand why some of these changes took place, and definitely some of the fluff needed a little makeover, but I feel the C'Tan (as ancient, evil, ravenous and totally Lovecraftian gods) could have stayed in the fluff. Remember all those hints at the connection between the AdMech and the Void Dragon! That was a pretty grimdark piece of fluff in my humble opinion.
Anyway thanks for putting up with me! Cheers!
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Let me hit your points.
1: They owned the galaxy, what everyone else is squatting on used to be prime Necron property. sure they may not be one unified people(yet), however when every single dynasty wakes up in either makes plans to take back what was it's land or starts doing so right away.
Same threat, merely a different goal.
2: Oh, they are still very much god like creatures. They are simply contained. Necrons do not want them ever getting out . I myself am glade the magical element is gone. I like my nercon more techno. We have plenty of races that are magical.
3: three I looked it up. Page .27 of the new book. The Inevitable conquer came under attack by the whole Black templar fleet. They do not cripple the ship, they boarded it and with his forces in disarray the stormload teleaported out.
Mr Black templar got all prissy and set the ship on a coarse to the heart of the sun. If the Styormlord had stayed they may have got him, but the bill would have not come cheaply.
The necrons had to change for a very simple reason. sales. every other army you could customize, every one except the necrons. they were always the same and kinda boreing.
I myself am on the side that like the new fluff. I like the C'tan as weaken and trapped Gods. To me it shows the true power of a united Necron force. If they can do that to the C'tan, then anything is at risk.
41998
Post by: angelshade00
As I mentioned, I completely understand the reasons behind the changes. Possibly, because I have not been playing 40k for long I had not gotten "tired" of the old Necron fluff (which was what actually drew me in the first place).
Thanks for reading.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Its cool. I am new myself. Playing around with the setting less then a year. Most stuff I know is from research really
53546
Post by: Nakor The BlueRider
I do miss the old Necron vibe, ancient killers enslaved to the C'tan, it made then the most grimdrak faction in 40k. Now they seem the Tau, a small faction with only a minor role in the grand scheme of things.
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Post by: IronfrontAlex
Waiiit do they actually say these gates are used for FTL transportation in the codex? i am an avid cron fan and i read the dolmen gates passage but i assumed they were simply a tool for the necrons to reach their enemies (Old ones/Eldar) who were using hit and run tactics via he webway..
?
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Yep it says without the webway they would be force to relay on slow moving statise ships. I Ignore that line.
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Post by: McNinja
Nakor The BlueRider wrote:I do miss the old Necron vibe, ancient killers enslaved to the C'tan, it made then the most grimdrak faction in 40k. Now they seem the Tau, a small faction with only a minor role in the grand scheme of things.
I mean, barring their ability to make stars explode, harness innumerable dimensions for their purposes, their millions of still-sleeping tomb worlds, their still-powerful fleets.... yeah. Tau. Anyway, slow-moving stasis-ships (and I think another bit of fluff refers to torch-ships), are BS. How the FUDGE did their empire span the galaxy prior to gaining access to the webway if they did not possess FTL? Because their empire, pre-transferrence, was freaking massive. They ruled the galaxy. Without a sort of FTL (which isn't the Warp and isn't the webway) they could not have done anything outside of their star system in their life spans. But I suppose if they were in no hurry to get anywhere (like a critical battle on the far side of the galaxy), I guess they could take stasis ship and get there after the battle had been finished for a decade. Which, actually they did, furthering my hypothesis that Ward has zero clue about anything science related, and all fluff relating to the expansion of the Necron empire should be discarded like the C: GK Bloodtide entry and replaced with something not fudging dumb.
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Post by: IronfrontAlex
Hunterindarkness wrote:Yep it says without the webway they would be force to relay on slow moving statise ships. I Ignore that line.
I'll ignore it too, then.
hopefully with a necron inclusing and a "massive overhaul" in necrons for the upcoming IA book, some fluff can be presented supporting the threatened position FTL tech on necron ships.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Yeah I am at a total loos at "They only had torch ships"+ "colonized the galaxy and had many small empires"+ "waged interstellar war" The gate thing is cool, but is one of those idea's they went to far with.
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Post by: McNinja
Massive overhaul what? Is this in the Rumors section? I would love this.
40749
Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
McNinja wrote: Because their empire, pre-transferrence, was freaking massive. They ruled the galaxy.
No they didn't. They tried to take on the Old Ones and got soundly defeated. They didn't remotely rule the galaxy before the bio-transferrence. Even after it, it's debatable. The only time it can really be argued that they ruled the galaxy was just after the Old Ones were defeated and before they turned on the C'tan, and even then they were sharing that power with the C'tan.
22855
Post by: djdutton
While the Dolem gates were probably used as a means of transportation, it was ultimately used as a way to attack the old ones as well as the Eldar. Since they have been in existence for billions of years (of course they were asleep for 60 million years but that's still not much compared to billions) so its understandable that they now have developed non-warp FTL travel by using worm-holes or whatever. Honestly, I don't remember the codex mentioning specifically "worm-holes" but it does mention a lot of phasing between dimensions and slipping into pocket dimension used by deathmarks, nightscythes, and monoliths.
While this codex does expand a lot more of the fluff it does seem to leave a bit up to interpretation. It could be that they can use dimensional travel that ignores the threats of the warp because of their increased technology or because they are traveling through dimensions completely different from the warp or maybe they are immune to the threats of the warp (to some degree) because they have no psychic ability whatsoever.
Ultimately, I feel that it's because of their immense technological skill and long-lasting existence more than anything else, but I think it's a personal decision on how you interpret it.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:McNinja wrote: Because their empire, pre-transferrence, was freaking massive. They ruled the galaxy.
No they didn't. They tried to take on the Old Ones and got soundly defeated. They didn't remotely rule the galaxy before the bio-transferrence. Even after it, it's debatable. The only time it can really be argued that they ruled the galaxy was just after the Old Ones were defeated and before they turned on the C'tan, and even then they were sharing that power with the C'tan.
Nope, First paragraph on page 6, says " Little by little the Necrontry dynasties spread even farther, until much of the galaxy answered to their rule". That was well before the war in heaven and the gates. They outnumber the Oldones by a large amount and had vastly better tech, this is also covered. They and the old ones ruled the galaxy, however of the two the Necrontyr covered a much larger area , almost all of it. The onld ones however had the webway, so could move troops, or whole settlements at a moments notice, while even using warp speeds it would take the necrontyr weeks or months to get to a target.
If you go by the new codex, then yes the Necrontry were the rulers of the galaxy in numbers alone. They more or less pulled the same trick humanity has and had spread to any and every habitable or useful world they stumbled across.
40749
Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Hunterindarkness wrote:
Nope, First paragraph on page 6, says " Little by little the Necrontry dynasties spread even farther, until much of the galaxy answered to their rule"
Which doesn't mean that they were the 'rulers' of the galaxy. I don't feel that you can be the ruler of a galaxy when you're a much weaker force than those going around seeding planets and the like. The Old Ones might not have been the 'rulers' of the galaxy either since they don't seem to have had the motivation, but the I don't think the Necrontyr were either. Powerful yes, but by no means the dominant force.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Hunterindarkness wrote:
Nope, First paragraph on page 6, says " Little by little the Necrontry dynasties spread even farther, until much of the galaxy answered to their rule"[/quote]
Which doesn't mean that they were the 'rulers' of the galaxy. I don't feel that you can be the ruler of a galaxy when you're a much weaker force than those going around seeding planets and the like. The Old Ones might not have been the 'rulers' of the galaxy either since they don't seem to have had the motivation, but the I don't think the Necrontyr were either. Powerful yes, but by no means the dominant force.
I bolded the important part.
22849
Post by: IronfrontAlex
djdutton wrote:While the Dolem gates were probably used as a means of transportation, it was ultimately used as a way to attack the old ones as well as the Eldar. Since they have been in existence for billions of years (of course they were asleep for 60 million years but that's still not much compared to billions) so its understandable that they now have developed non-warp FTL travel by using worm-holes or whatever. Honestly, I don't remember the codex mentioning specifically "worm-holes" but it does mention a lot of phasing between dimensions and slipping into pocket dimension used by deathmarks, nightscythes, and monoliths.
While this codex does expand a lot more of the fluff it does seem to leave a bit up to interpretation. It could be that they can use dimensional travel that ignores the threats of the warp because of their increased technology or because they are traveling through dimensions completely different from the warp or maybe they are immune to the threats of the warp (to some degree) because they have no psychic ability whatsoever.
Ultimately, I feel that it's because of their immense technological skill and long-lasting existence more than anything else, but I think it's a personal decision on how you interpret it.
See you point out dimensional travel, and a lot of other peopel associate any extradimensional things in 40k as strictly the warp; nobody ever said there were only two dimensions!
I'm under the assumption after everything that i've read on necron fluff that they arre wholey disinterested in the warp since it's volitile and only use it "like with dolmen gates" for strategic value. And when it comes to use of extradimensional tech, hell look at the Tarrasict (spelling?) labyrinths.
you know, those devices that the necrons used to trap the c'tan shards that are also used to trap enemies in game. Those devices open up tiny, pocket dimensions where the enemies are trapped for eternity in a limbo like space. The necrons use dimensional tech that has nothing to do with the webway and the warp, and yeah i think as a whole there just wasn't a lot of fluff explaining all of this.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Which doesn't mean that they were the 'rulers' of the galaxy. I don't feel that you can be the ruler of a galaxy when you're a much weaker force than those going around seeding planets and the like. The Old Ones might not have been the 'rulers' of the galaxy either since they don't seem to have had the motivation, but the I don't think the Necrontyr were either. Powerful yes, but by no means the dominant force.
well first off it says they
1: ruled much of the galaxy
2: Out numbered the old ones vastly
3: Had better technology then anyone.
The old ones had 1 and only 1 thing that gave them the advantage. The webway and insta travel with vast forces or vast evac to anywhere. Once that little issue was fixed then yes the Old ones had zero chance.
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Post by: Connor MacLeod
It slipped my mind earlier, but I was also remidned of 'Lori Delta Tove' the planet sized Necron who apparently can FTL between the stars at will. The GK codex implied it was due to some sort of temporal manipulation ability (which fits with implications of the Cryptek in Fall of Damnos.) If so then at least some alternative forms of Necron FTL would fall into that 'messing with fundamental forces of the galaxy that has unpredictable consequences' like the Necron Celestial Orrey (which apparently can also act FTL across vast distances, I might add.) or Orikan's time travel abilities and their unpredictable conseuqences.
I would actually say that the Dolmen Gates are the one form of Necron FTL that is accessible to ALL of them, aside from the possible use of their wormhole gate portal thingies. We know of a number of Necron forces having it but we also know that the Stormlords in 'Hammer and Anvil' were distinctly sublight warships. So for some Lords lack of a Dolmen gate may not be a problem.
Edit: Also 'dimension' can have more than one meaning.. semantics can be a messy thing when you don't have clarification.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Hunterindarkness wrote:
well first off it says they
1: ruled much of the galaxy
2: Out numbered the old ones vastly
3: Had better technology then anyone.
The old ones had 1 and only 1 thing that gave them the advantage. The webway and insta travel with vast forces or vast evac to anywhere. Once that little issue was fixed then yes the Old ones had zero chance.
The word "much" is a relative term. You could say that Russia rules much of the world because of its landmass. That doesn't mean that it rules the world or is the most powerful nation. The Necrontyr having a higher population doesn't surprise me. The Old Ones were immortal. Having lots of children would have been unnecessary. The Necrontyr had highly unpredictable lifespans that were generally short. Of course they'd be having lots of children. Good for them. The Necrons still have better technology. as do the Eldar but neither of them rule the galaxy in the 41st millenium. The Old Ones also had Psychic powers as well as the Webway.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Actually the Eldra ruled the galaxy for some time, it was only after they became decadent that they lost the grip upon it. You can disagree, but with what is written the Necrontry in fact did rule the galaxy in the same way that the IoM currently does
When you cover almost everything but a few spots here and there, then yeah "rule the Galaxy" fits.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Ya, Doleman gates are lame. Can't say I'm a fan of the Newcron fluff overall. It's got that feeling to it y'know: that Matt Ward has written this feeling.
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Post by: IronfrontAlex
Connor MacLeod wrote:It slipped my mind earlier, but I was also remidned of 'Lori Delta Tove' the planet sized Necron who apparently can FTL between the stars at will. The GK codex implied it was due to some sort of temporal manipulation ability (which fits with implications of the Cryptek in Fall of Damnos.).
*ahem*
WHAT THE FETH IS THIS?
where is this from, i must know, nownownownow!
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Can't say I'm a fan of the Newcron fluff overall. It's got that feeling to it y'know: that Matt Ward has written this feeling.
Statements like this have gotten really old and really tiring. And no I am not a huge ward fan, I feel his stuff seems unpolished but the raging Hard on of hate because his name is on something is just overblown.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
IronfrontAlex wrote:Connor MacLeod wrote:It slipped my mind earlier, but I was also remidned of 'Lori Delta Tove' the planet sized Necron who apparently can FTL between the stars at will. The GK codex implied it was due to some sort of temporal manipulation ability (which fits with implications of the Cryptek in Fall of Damnos.).
*ahem*
WHAT THE FETH IS THIS?
where is this from, i must know, nownownownow!
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lori_Delta_Tove#.T4c_rHlA50I here ya go. And it was not a Necron, but a Necron built planet tomb world it seems.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
@hunter.
Don't worry, I don't like Matt Ward because of his bad changes to the background not some Internet meme.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
I for one Like the new fluff are better then the old, However I can totally respect someone disliking it. It was simply the way you stated it did not say that. It was like saying Ward wrote it so it was defacto bad, simply because he had a hand in it.
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Post by: sydewynder
Hunterindarkness wrote:I for one Like the new fluff are better then the old, However I can totally respect someone disliking it. .
Pretty much this. The new fluff is more or less what got me interested in Necrons. But I can understand how people feel some of it is unnecessary or OTT.
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Post by: McNinja
The new fluff also got me into the Necrons. But I feel like Matt Ward is one of those people who, like me, have a bunch of awesome ideas, but translating them onto paper is not exactly their greatest strength. Read the last part of my (rather long) post on the second page. That is exactly how I feel about Matt Ward.
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Post by: Iracundus
The problem is the utter retcon displeased those that liked the old background of the Necrons and C'tan being a Lovecraftian horror from the past.
The easiest way to have pleased both factions of players would have been to have the rebellion against the C'tan occur, NOW in the modern 40K era, with the Necrons seeing an opportunity as the C'tan wake up, weakened as never before by their long sleep. That way, players could have played the new Tomb Kings in space rebellious Necrons, while those that liked the old background could have stuck with the loyalist Necrons aiming to serve the C'tan and being an implacable enemy of all other races and factions.
The other problem I find is Ward's insistence on creating Mary Sue characters in every Codex, such as Imotekh for the Necrons. The new Codex makes it out that he is a completely unbeatable strategist, save for when confronted with the zany illogic of Orks. It's one weakness but it seems almost a token one. It is almost as if he thinks such authoer/player insertion fantasies are what constitutes good writing or design.
I actually don't mind the new Necron background as it added a bit of flavor to the previously bland possibilities of the old Necrons. I just disagree with how the retcon was carried out with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Iracundus wrote:The problem is the utter retcon displeased those that liked the old background of the Necrons and C'tan being a Lovecraftian horror from the past.
The easiest way to have pleased both factions of players would have been to have the rebellion against the C'tan occur, NOW in the modern 40K era, with the Necrons seeing an opportunity as the C'tan wake up, weakened as never before by their long sleep. That way, players could have played the new Tomb Kings in space rebellious Necrons, while those that liked the old background could have stuck with the loyalist Necrons aiming to serve the C'tan and being an implacable enemy of all other races and factions.
.
But you would have the very same issues. Some one would not like it. I myself do not care for that idea at all, it seems..well sloppy. If you go by the old fluff they simply could never rebel at all, and nothing would change that except..well they need to rebel except can't. The old fluff had to change, it simply had to. So you are left with two and only two real options. 1: Fresh break, all new background total reboot. 2: Kinda try to change some of the background so it still is the same, but no longer is the same. The second rout is often the messier of the two. Number two normally pisses everyone off
GW and ward went with a clean break. Total reboot. Did this upset some old players, yes. Did it please and bring in new Necron players, yes.The new fluff more or less does just what you are asking. They have given Necron players a blank check to build any kind of Necron Fluff they wish. Who is to say you can not have a Necron army that worships the C'tan shards as Gods and wishes to restore them? The new fluff allows this.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Hunterindarkness wrote:Actually the Eldra ruled the galaxy for some time, it was only after they became decadent that they lost the grip upon it. You can disagree, but with what is written the Necrontry in fact did rule the galaxy in the same way that the IoM currently does
Kind of. They were the most powerful species but were predominantly concentrated within the 'current' Eye of Terror. That's not most of the galaxy.
When you cover almost everything but a few spots here and there, then yeah "rule the Galaxy" fits.
Most of the bases? They weren't the most powerful faction, and that's the single most important thing.
Iracundus wrote:The problem is the utter retcon displeased those that liked the old background of the Necrons and C'tan being a Lovecraftian horror from the past.
The C'tan never struck me as particularly Lovecraftian. The Deceiver partially fit the bill, but the others didn't really seem to (to me). Their actions didn't connect with their given motivations. They wanted to conquer the galaxy and harvest the living and were capable of doing so but were instead doing pretty much nothing. That's not Lovecraftian. That's more along the lines of the villain having the power to win but choosing not to sue it.
The new Codex makes it out that he is a completely unbeatable strategist, save for when confronted with the zany illogic of Orks. It's one weakness but it seems almost a token one.
That's not Imotekhs only weakness though. He is defeated by the Black Templar fleet. He can be ambushed. He's not said, if I recall correctly, to actually be the greatest strategist of the galaxy. Even then, he has had plenty of time to work on his strategy and with Necron technology, he may well be able to know more of his enemies force than most other factions will be capable of finding out.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
I always saw The eye of terror were the homeworld areas of the Eldar, the center and starting place of the empire. They held and controlled worlds over the whole of the galaxy. Eldar ruins can still be found across the entire IoM held space. However almost all of the Eldar, well over 90% we have been told died and the Eldar core worlds became the eye of Terror. You could be correct ,however they still controlled the vast majority of it if we use the maps we have been provided.
The IoM does not own every world and every system in the area's it controls, yet it 'Rules the Galaxy" even if whole xeno empires are found within its boarders.
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Post by: Iracundus
Hunterindarkness wrote:Iracundus wrote:The problem is the utter retcon displeased those that liked the old background of the Necrons and C'tan being a Lovecraftian horror from the past.
The easiest way to have pleased both factions of players would have been to have the rebellion against the C'tan occur, NOW in the modern 40K era, with the Necrons seeing an opportunity as the C'tan wake up, weakened as never before by their long sleep. That way, players could have played the new Tomb Kings in space rebellious Necrons, while those that liked the old background could have stuck with the loyalist Necrons aiming to serve the C'tan and being an implacable enemy of all other races and factions.
.
But you would have the very same issues. Some one would not like it. I myself do not care for that idea at all, it seems..well sloppy. If you go by the old fluff they simply could never rebel at all, and nothing would change that except..well they need to rebel except can't. The old fluff had to change, it simply had to. So you are left with two and only two real options. 1: Fresh break, all new background total reboot. 2: Kinda try to change some of the background so it still is the same, but no longer is the same. The second rout is often the messier of the two. Number two normally pisses everyone off
GW and ward went with a clean break. Total reboot. Did this upset some old players, yes. Did it please and bring in new Necron players, yes.The new fluff more or less does just what you are asking. They have given Necron players a blank check to build any kind of Necron Fluff they wish. Who is to say you can not have a Necron army that worships the C'tan shards as Gods and wishes to restore them? The new fluff allows this.
It is never actually said in the old background that they could never rebel. There wasn't much written in the old background about the Necrons in the modern 40K era other than from the view of their opponents. It was known for example that Necron Lords had initiative and autonomy. That would seemingly give the possibility of rebellion.
The issue with "C'tan loyalist Necrons" in the current background is that it says the Necrons already defeated shattered the C'tan prior to going to sleep. Presumably any loyalist Necrons would have already fought (and lost) beside their C'tan masters. Why would any of them have survived with resources left to build Tomb Worlds?
I would argue that of your 2 choices, Number two pisses LESS people off, because those that liked the old can still retain it and integrate the new instead of just wiping the board.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Hunterindarkness wrote:Actually the Eldra ruled the galaxy for some time, it was only after they became decadent that they lost the grip upon it. You can disagree, but with what is written the Necrontry in fact did rule the galaxy in the same way that the IoM currently does
Kind of. They were the most powerful species but were predominantly concentrated within the 'current' Eye of Terror. That's not most of the galaxy.
Actually look at the BRB map of the Eldar domains. The Exodite worlds are all over the galaxy at the fringes (thus showing the Eldar empire had spread throughout the galaxy), and the portrayals in the Eldar and Dark Eldar BL novels show a galaxy spanning empire.
One thing to remember though that when it comes to interstellar empires, is that not every space or star system within the borders of an empire have to be filled and dominated. The Eldar empire was spread across the galaxy, but their worlds were connected via the Webway to form a united empire. That doesn't preclude other races having their own political entities in those areas not directly occupied and inhabited by the Eldar. Commorragh is actually a linked series of nodes and pocket spaces spread throughout the galaxy in realspace, but it appears as one location because they are all linked closely within the Webway.
The C'tan never struck me as particularly Lovecraftian. The Deceiver partially fit the bill, but the others didn't really seem to (to me). Their actions didn't connect with their given motivations. They wanted to conquer the galaxy and harvest the living and were capable of doing so but were instead doing pretty much nothing. That's not Lovecraftian. That's more along the lines of the villain having the power to win but choosing not to sue it.
GW wanted to make Lovecraftian horrors, but failed. Nightbringer was a Khorne wannabe, and the Deceiver came off as a Tzeentch wannabe.
However they did attempt to complete their Great Work of building pylons to seal off the galaxy. We saw examples of that in the 13th Black Crusade and the campaign for Medusa V (where they failed). The old Necron portrayl had them as a rising threat as more awakened, but a threat that was still potentially stoppable (as foreseen by the Eldar Farseer in the Necron Codex).
The new Codex makes it out that he is a completely unbeatable strategist, save for when confronted with the zany illogic of Orks. It's one weakness but it seems almost a token one.
That's not Imotekhs only weakness though. He is defeated by the Black Templar fleet. He can be ambushed. He's not said, if I recall correctly, to actually be the greatest strategist of the galaxy. Even then, he has had plenty of time to work on his strategy and with Necron technology, he may well be able to know more of his enemies force than most other factions will be capable of finding out.
Actually it is said that he is "a grand strategist, perhaps the most accomplished the galaxy has ever known." (p. 54, Necron Codex). It is also said that "so impeccable are the logical patterns behind the Stormlord's strategies that the only way a foe can truly gain meaningful advantage is to abandon all logic themselves." Finally it says that "if Imotekh's defeat comes, it is sure not to be at the hands of a superior strategist, but rather at the hands of a more accomplished warrior." Again all from p.54 and p.55 of the Necron Codex.
All of this shows Ward attempting to set up Imotekh as the supreme strategist, and also a bit of an immature viewpoint of saying only a warrior can defeat him. Strategists win wars, not brainless "Me Smash!" hulking barbarians.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Hunterindarkness wrote:I always saw The eye of terror were the homeworld areas of the Eldar, the center and starting place of the empire. They held and controlled worlds over the whole of the galaxy. Eldar ruins can still be found across the entire IoM held space. However almost all of the Eldar, well over 90% we have been told died and the Eldar core worlds became the eye of Terror. You could be correct ,however they still controlled the vast majority of it if we use the maps we have been provided.
If 90% was in that concentrated area then it would suggest they were not (directly, at least) ruling most of the galaxy. They could've dominated the other species' if they'd so desired but chose not to. Outside of the Eye of Terror the Eldar generally seemed to have survived. However, those that did had presumably split off to an extent from the rest of their people, meaning that they did not retain the great knowledge and power of the Eldar Empire as a whole.
The IoM does not own every world and every system in the area's it controls, yet it 'Rules the Galaxy" even if whole xeno empires are found within its boarders.
Except it doesn't really rule the galaxy. It's the single strongest force, and it can exert a fair amount of influence, but it does not rule the galaxy.
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Post by: Connor MacLeod
If the old C'tan were lovecraftian they were a very very poor knockoff (like alot of other concepts 40K 'borrowed' I suppose), because frankly the whole 'star vampires' thing seemed more like 'we're another sort of daemon/god, just sucking on realspace energy rather than the warp'. And the whole existence o fthe Necron were o be the mindless slaves of the Space Vampires to feed them. But they were so vague and poorly defined that they had no personalities (except for the Nightbringer, which isn't saying much, and the deceiver.) so you never really knew if they actually WERE a threat.
And this isn't even a total reboot, there's pletny of wiggle room for the 'oldcrons' - god I hate that term - in the modern age. No you can't have things the way they used to be, but how the heck is taht any different in 40K? Anytime any new piece of fluff or material is published the universe changes. It's changed steadily since the Rogue Trader 1st edition days, and I dont see how things are going ot stop changing (If it does it will stagnate even worse and probably die off.)
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
I am gonna disagree on if combining them would have been better., but then its a matter of taste.
On the subject of the Modern C'tan worshipers. well ya have to recall back when they rebelled they did not hav e free will. The silent king said jump, they jumped. They didn't even ask how high.
However after he destoried the protocols , they now have free will. They look at what the silent king made them do, and say 'humm those C'tan saved our asses more then once..it was the silent king that betrayed us, not them" so set about "fixing" a C'tan. The new fluff does indeed allow that kind of thing.
From what i read of the oldcons they had zero choice. They were slaves of the C'tan in much the same way the current Necron fluff made them slaves to the silent king.
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Post by: Iracundus
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am gonna disagree on if combining them would have been better., but then its a matter of taste.
On the subject of the Modern C'tan worshipers. well ya have to recall back when they rebelled they did not hav e free will. The silent king said jump, they jumped. They didn't even ask how high.
However after he destoried the protocols , they now have free will. They look at what the silent king made them do, and say 'humm those C'tan saved our asses more then once..it was the silent king that betrayed us, not them" so set about "fixing" a C'tan. The new fluff does indeed allow that kind of thing.
From what i read of the oldcons they had zero choice. They were slaves of the C'tan in much the same way the current Necron fluff made them slaves to the silent king.
The tweaking would have been in making rebellion possible even for the oldcrons, so that the absence of free will wasn't absolute but rather more of suppressed free will. One small tweak there and moving the rebellion to the modern day 40K era allows both newcron and oldcron players to have their flavor. One as Tomb Kings in space with their own agendas, and the others as still servants of the C'tan bent on sealing off the galaxy from the warp and turning it into a farm for C'tan food.
It could have been explained as the passage of time weakening the protocols that bound the Necrons to the C'tan and then the C'tan themselves being so weakened (something present even in the oldcron background) that the thought of rebellion is awakened in Necron Lords. It could also have been explained as those Necron Lords that had their C'tan master destroyed previously as awakening and through taking the initiative on their own in the absence of their new conquering C'tan master, began to show their old personalities and desires again.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Could have worked, I do not think it would solve the issue you have. You would still have the necrons with a war going on now, which is nether the old conrs or the new ones. It still more or less invalidates all the old fluff still, at lest all that came after nap time.
I for one find it less flavorful and not as good as what we got.. I did not like the old fluff,Other then the not needing the warp for FTL anyhow.There is the key to the issue. a great many new players did not like the old fluff and would not know be interested in playing or even reading up on the necrons if those fluff changes had not happened.
You are gonna upset the old players no matter what you do. They painted themselves into a corner with the old fluff.
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Post by: Iracundus
Hunterindarkness wrote:Could have worked, I do not think it would solve the issue you have. You would still have the necrons with a war going on now, which is nether the old conrs or the new ones. It still more or less invalidates all the old fluff still, at lest all that came after nap time.
It actually doesn't because we knew next to nothing about Necrons from the Necron POV. The actions of the Deceiver and Nightbringer can still be ascribed to them. They can then subsequently be "shattered" by rebellious Necrons, so that their use on the tabletop is a portrayal of their shards (either in the hands of rebels or loyalists).
The scattered Necrons awakening around the galaxy is the same situation in both versions. Only now, we have the old Necrons awakening still loyal servants, and we have the new Necrons re-establishing their old dynasties and pursuing their old personal goals. It achieves the same situation as the newcron codex while not completely shelving oldcron players.
The Dark Eldar reboot in their Codex for example still integrated enough of the old background to please old players while adding their own new background. In the end, both old and new came away satisfied.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
I am just gonna say i disagree, what I have read of the old fluff, they were slaves. The whole "Wake up and rebel" is an odd one for me. It seems silly. The old fluff had them go to sleep to conserve power of the C'tan so when they woke up harvest would be ready.
it just seems a bit heavy handed to me and something that seems forced and does not fit, unlike the new fluff.
To each his own I guess.
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Post by: Iracundus
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am just gonna say i disagree, what I have read of the old fluff, they were slaves. The whole "Wake up and rebel" is an odd one for me. It seems silly. The old fluff had them go to sleep to conserve power of the C'tan so when they woke up harvest would be ready.
The reasons for sleep in both old and new are not incompatible per se. In the old, they slept because the Enslavers were running rampant. In the new, they slept to avoid conflict with the rising Eldar. Both are not necessarily mutually exclusive reasons.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
As some one who rewrite fluff to "Fit" what he thinks is better. I say go with what ya like man. I did not like the enslavers, I did not like the Necron went to sleep as the C'tan's bitches either. So for me I am happy with the new stuff and the old stuff can rot for all i care. I found it dull, and unimaginative. I also do not get the C'tan as great old ones. They just never had that vibe at all to me.
If you like the older stuff cool., I simply do not.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
In a way the old Necrons still exist. If you only have a destroyer lord leading your army that's pretty much the same thing. However, that's probably like 5% of Necrons. The new background isn't a total waste or anything but I would prefer if the Newcron style Necrons had only been like 10% of Necrons. It was always suspected that Necron Lords had full personalities with eccentricities.
That way each player could have their own Necron force doing whatever they want but the Necrons still had that menacing doom to them.
Before this Necrons had that Apocalyptic side to them like Tyranids. Victory for them meant the destruction of all living things. They literally looked like and were death incarnate.
Now they're just wacky monarchs and I miss theat old side of them.
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Post by: asimo77
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Before this Necrons had that Apocalyptic side to them like Tyranids. Victory for them meant the destruction of all living things. They literally looked like and were death incarnate. Now they're just wacky monarchs and I miss theat old side of them.
While having an apocalyptic end game is interesting it would make them far too similar to Tyranids; they already fill the "end all life down to the bacterial level" niche. Necrons are rather unique in that they are a lawful evil type, which doesn't really exist as an enemy archetype for the Imperium.
As for their threat and menace they are now more dangerous if anything. Oldcrons never were active much, I mean there was the incident in "Xenology" and the time the Necrons landed a few ships on Mars, other than that there were hardly any significant encounters with Necrons. It was always curious human pokes her nose in some ruins, crons wake up, crons go pew pew, then crons go to sleep. The only other active entities were the C'tan and by active I mean this one time the Deciever absorbed a Callidus assassin's phase blade...
Now they actively conquer, enslave, and experiment on the fleshier races. We also know more of their war panoply and other tools of destruction. If anything they are more threatening. People always say "yeah well they're all fragmented dynasties!" Putting aside the fact that the codex makes it explicit that dynasties and the royalty are more than willing to work together to further the Necron cause, I'd say "so what?" Did this supposed unity do anything for the crons in the old fluff? It's not like the old crons were shown to be this monolithic entitiy that was in communication with all of its Tombworlds. A Tombworld's awakening was more or less a one off event or plot device, the supposed loss of unity due to the creation of dynasties never really existed in the first place.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Well said Asimo.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
The Necrons were lawful evil before. Now they are more of a neutral or perhaps a neutral evil. Pretty much whatever you consider the Imperium. There was no Necron on Necron violence before so I'd say they were a monolithic force.
The C'tan were frightening villians too and I miss them.
The Necrons were death itself before and I liked that but to each his own.
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Post by: asimo77
The extermination of all life forms isn't really lawful evil. You could argue it's the concept of order and staticity (that even a word?) gone extreme, but when you're at the point where you're killing everything then D&D alignments don't really mean anything since any goal besides genocide is really meaningless at this point. Lawful evil as I understand it is used to describe the evil empire types: the kinds that are oppressive and enslaving but organized, like the Empire of Star Wars. When you look over the IoM's enemies no one really fits that description, so Necrons have a unique role to play now instead of being tech based Tyranids.
There may have been no Necron-on-Necron violence before, but that wasn't the point I was making. Just because they used to not fight each other doesn't mean they worked together in the old fluff. The Oldcrons didn't really feel like an empire but more like an infestation, which is to say some planets might have some nasty robots lurking in them. But much like how the termites in your home don't conspire with the termites in your neighbor's house, the separate Tombworlds never seemed to work together.
Also it needs to be said again that the new Necron-on-Necron violence is shown to be very rare and mostly for show in the new Codex.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
I liked the Old Lore better.
It seemed to me that the only criticism of it was "WHY DIDN'T THEY INSTA-WIN!" and that, to me, is a foolish question.
They didn't insta-win because:
1) They weren't completely awake yet
2) Some memory engrams were damaged and Lords forgot their functions.
3) Some entire Tombworlds are malfunctioning
4) Their Gods had not awakened yet, and so the Oldcrons are biding their time.
The new fluff isn't bad, but it makes the Necrons into robotic Eldar, with tombworlds instead of craftworlds, technology instead of psyker fuckery, and robots.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Unit1126PLL wrote:
The new fluff isn't bad, but it makes the Necrons into robotic Eldar, with tombworlds instead of craftworlds, technology instead of psyker fuckery, and robots.
I don't follow this line of thought at all. They do not share the same goals as the Eldra, they do not share the same tech, the same look or anything I can see. The only similarities I see are , they are really freaking old and used to control the galaxy. And onlike the Eldar, their numbers will only incress over time. The histories and armies as well as play style seem nothing alike.
I mean I get ya do not like them, I just do not understand this particular line of thought.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Hunterindarkness wrote:Unit1126PLL wrote:
The new fluff isn't bad, but it makes the Necrons into robotic Eldar, with tombworlds instead of craftworlds, technology instead of psyker fuckery, and robots.
I don't follow this line of thought at all. They do not share the same goals as the Eldra, they do not share the same tech, the same look or anything I can see. The only similarities I see are , they are really freaking old and used to control the galaxy. And onlike the Eldar, their numbers will only incress over time. The histories and armies as well as play style seem nothing alike.
I mean I get ya do not like them, I just do not understand this particular line of thought.
I will try to list my reasons here then:
1) Each tombworld has a different "culture" from the others, just as the manner of the Eldar Craftworlds.
2) The Necrons do have a different motivation - this is granted.
3) The Necrons use the Webway to get around, just like the Eldar.
4) Necrons have Farseers (sorry, I meant Harbingers of Eternity).
5) Necrons have other magical powers (sorry, I meant technological powers that might as well be magic) such as the Chronometron.
5a) to explain better, many of the Necron powers seem like they wouldn't be out of place as a psychic power in an Eldar codex.
6) The Necrons have and use shards of their old gods on the battlefield (Avatar, anyone?)
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
eh so do about every other army. You could replace the name Necron on your list for IG and it reads the same way.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Hunterindarkness wrote:eh so do about every other army. You could replace the name Necron on your list for IG and it reads the same way.
Which is why I don't like it.
The Necrons used to be the only army EXEMPT from this rule.
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Post by: asimo77
It was less that they were exempt and more like they had little flavor. For example, it's not like they used to have a unique analogue to psychic powers, they simply didn't have any period.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Pretty much, they were more a plot device then a real faction honestly.
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Post by: SoulGazer
My favorite part is where the Necrons are able to shatter gods(and even kill one) but still have trouble fighting Spess Mehrens. I know, can't have anything all-powerful OP, but come on, that's exactly how the fluff makes them out to be. Except for some reason they lose sometimes... Because Bolter/Chainsword > All.
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Post by: McNinja
They still have the capacity to blow up stars, but that device is well guarded.
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