Wondering what the Dakka community thinks about Mephi being used in friendly games. Is he too over powered? Should he be left in the case until tournaments? He usually is a game changer the moment he gets into CC.

Thoughts?

Also, for some reason the search function was not working, so i appologize in advance if this topic has been brought up numerous times in the past.

Cheers,
Falco

Mephiston is pretty OP. He's not fun to play against, is horribly unbalanced, and is one of those units that can win you the game even if you were annihilated in every other aspect. That said, I feel that he doesn't belong in friendly games below 2000pts. Above that, your opponent should have the tools to deal with him, even if he is still unfun to play agianst.

This really depends on what someone considers a "friendly game." Regardless thought I don't see why you should have to take this into consideration when fielding an army. If you like having Mephiston in your army for whatever reason and he has no synergy with the list then why not?

I think i will stick with the 2000 pt mark. just so I dont become "that guy". It is unfortunate, because i like him so much. I might just start asking before games if the opponent has a problem with me running him.

Mephiston isn't so op when you've got a ton of dark lances firing at him.

I've seen Mephiston tear through stuff, but I usually throw that into the "acceptable losses" bin. I'll throw a squad of whatever for him to eat so I can set up to blow his not-eternal-warrior-having ass away.

He goes from OP to a massive waiste of points depending on the opponent. It seems like armies either have no answer for him, or a million answers, there's no middle ground with mephi.

I agree it depends on your definition of friendly. If you have a bad player who wants you to use a crappy list then it won't fit into that person's idea of "friendly". If you have a good play that likes a tough game but just likes using unusual units/builds then it may be "friendly" to them.

This game is in my opinion a gentlemen's agreement above all other things. If you both can get what you want out of a game with mephiston in there then use him.

I love seeing him in friendly games if I have taken Ghaz

Mephiston is, and always has been, one of my absolute favorite characters in the entire 40k universe. If people have a problem with me taking him, I run his model with "regular" librarian stats (with the epistolary upgrade) and just call it Mephiston. Then I run a second libby and that makes up the points on the fly.

I like the fluff, not necessarily the OP-ness, and he's actually not all that bad. Treat him like a vehicle and he dies fast enough, but if you let him get into the Danger Zone, then you've got some minor issues.

I've only played against Meph once, and while he did fly around and kill stuff for a while, he eventually got stuck in combat with a bunch of Berzerkers who repeatedly powerfisted him in the face until he died.

From what I've seen, he's also a lot more manageable if you have some decent psychic defence.

Mephiston is only OP and abit much for some games under certain conditions.

Using him in anything under 1000 points is just plain unfair as most armies will have to focus everything they have on him to maybe kill him in one or two turns.

Also, some armies with older Codexes have alot of trouble bringing him down because there AP2 weapons cost way to much(I'm looking at you Tau and Eldar codexes). So, I would say in the spirit of fair play, bringing him against these opponents is non-friendly.

I also want to say, for the record, I HATE his fluff. Its the second stupidest thing I have ever read in a 40k Codex, right after Draigo's fluff.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

I also want to say, for the record, I HATE his fluff. Its the second stupidest thing I have ever read in a 40k Codex, right after Draigo's fluff.

Mephiston is the reason why I always keep a pocket full of Ratlings whenever I play a BA player.

bmoleski wrote:Mephiston is pretty OP. He's not fun to play against, is horribly unbalanced, and is one of those units that can win you the game even if you were annihilated in every other aspect. That said, I feel that he doesn't belong in friendly games below 2000pts. Above that, your opponent should have the tools to deal with him, even if he is still unfun to play agianst.

This just about sums up my feelings towards him; but it really depends on the army. I primarily run Necrons, and Mephiston is the single worst thing in all of 40k for my Necron army. However, my Long Fangs generally just laugh at Mephiston failing to activate his psychic powers. Similarly, I think Eldrad basically turns Mephiston into a big red waste of 250 points.

Typically avoid Special Characters in general for friendly games, unless you've got the other guy's permission beforehand.

i think GK pretty much instantly out melee mephiston and kill him dont they?

kb305 wrote:i think GK pretty much instantly out melee mephiston and kill him dont they?

250pts of Paladins w/ Halbers (cuz you won't be tailoring to fight Mephiston)

Mephiston hits first, most likely has Preferred Enemy and S10 so all wounds are ID, and T6......Pallys lose.

Draigo on the other hand.....

AnomanderRake wrote:Typically avoid Special Characters in general for friendly games, unless you've got the other guy's permission beforehand.

I didn't realise it was 2006 still and anyone actually gave a gak about using special characters.

Mephiston is fine; the only things he's really good at killing are MEQ squads or things which die to any other good CC unit, or stationary vehicles you've somehow let him reach. Smart play limits his effectiveness because if he jumps out of cover and doesn't make it to where he needs to be then any list with a decent amount of AP2 will take him off the table pretty easily.

Yeah I love it when a little kid comes up with his BA army and says "I HAZ MEPHISTON!!! U R SO DEAD!!!! LUL!!!!". Every single time that happens I drive a trukk's worth of Orks Boyz at him and assault him. He kills ~2/3 guys a turn and I take on average 1/2 wounds of him with my PK and 1/2 with my boys every turn. It's actually quite funny. 112pts kill 250pts sooo easily.

I don't think Mephiston is nearly as deadly as the Space Wolves guy. Mephiston is overall balanced as a special character IMO.

he dies to plasma guns, melta guns, lascannons and the other large amountof AP2/1 guns your opponent should be bringing so no....no he is not OP

GK is an army full of instant death sticks for any multi-wound model, especially Mephy since he doesn't even get an invuln save.

How can you not like Mephiston's fluff? It's stayed pretty consistent and is fairly definitive of "space marine badassery".

DakkaOrk007 wrote:Every single time that happens I drive a trukk's worth of Orks Boyz at him and assault him. He kills ~2/3 guys a turn and I take on average 1/2 wounds of him with my PK and 1/2 with my boys every turn. It's actually quite funny. 112pts kill 250pts sooo easily.

The trukk full of boys would seriously be in trouble unless the person rolling for Meph has terrible luck...

The trukk holds 12, Meph kills 4-6 on the charge and 4-5 when not charging.

So if he only kills 4, you are down to 8, you can do at most 3 wounds to him with the PK. average will be 1 or 2.

So if you do 2 wounds to him you lose combat by 2 and take a LD-2 check at LD8 you run and meph autokills the whole unit.

Meph has Unleashed rage so he re-rolls to hit rolls, he hits on a 3+ because he is WS7 which he can re-roll, He has 6 attacks on the charge, 5 when not charging, and he wounds on a 2+ because of Str6, all of this and no armor save allowed.

You must fight people with terrible luck, or terrible memory and forget to cast unleashed rage.

OP Meph is fine, he dies to mass amounts of fire, or anti tank fairly easily. If you put a 5 man unit of assault marines in front of him, as a screen, then meph gets a 4+ cover from all that AP2 shooting, and will last a bit longer.

Fortunately you get 2 Trukk Boyz squads for 1 Mephiston.

Radical_Edward wrote:I don't think Mephiston is nearly as deadly as the Space Wolves guy. Mephiston is overall balanced as a special character IMO.

Except that his stats & psyker abilities read like a fanboy's wishlist. He can't be ID'd, he gets 5 wounds with a 2+ armour save, 5 attacks at Str 10 with preferred enemy, has a 24" threat range and almost always goes first in combat. And a force weapon.

My earlier point stands: if the opposing army has no reliable way of negating his psyker abilities, then Meph is brutal. And if you run an army that is sub-par is CC AND has no way of negating psyker abilities, then Mephiston is basically like pushing a win button. Granted, as a Necron player Mephiston is just about the worst thing to see in all of 40k on the other side of the table, but it doesn't change the fact that he is very overpowered. Yes, there are ways of bringing him down, but half of the armies require at least a full turn of concentrating their entire force to do so. That isn't balance.


EDIT: I see you play BA. Now your silly quote makes sense.

Any unit is fine for a friendly game. Anyone who says one unit or another shouldn't be in a friendly army list being a jerk.

He may be good but anything that ignores armour will easily deal with him. Spam Plasma and he dies. Spam Power Weapons he dies. Take a GK character with Halberd he dies. Charge him.with a GK squad he dies. 3 Carnifexes he dies. Tyrabt with Guard he dies

mephiston op? is he balls

sure he kicks the crap out of everything he vses but his slow and easy to maneuver around.

his pretty much a overpriced small daemon prince.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I also want to say, for the record, I HATE his fluff. Its the second stupidest thing I have ever read in a 40k Codex, right after Draigo's fluff.

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Deadshot wrote:He may be good but anything that ignores armour will easily deal with him. Spam Plasma and he dies. Spam Power Weapons he dies. Take a GK character with Halberd he dies. Charge him.with a GK squad he dies. 3 Carnifexes he dies. Tyrabt with Guard he dies

Mephi is init7 so a halbard doesnt do much. Also he is T7 so you need to hammerhand a character up to the point where he can actually wound and then activate force weapons, but Mephi has a good hood. Not the way to deal with him. Same goes for a GK squad. Its not likely they will do many wounds and then he can always hood the ID.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would leave him in the case unless you are playing a tourney. He is just that lame. I never have trouble bringing him down, but I wouldnt feel good using him in a game.

T6, Exergy. T5 if eating Rad Grenades.

azazel the cat wrote:

Radical_Edward wrote:I don't think Mephiston is nearly as deadly as the Space Wolves guy. Mephiston is overall balanced as a special character IMO.

Except that his stats & psyker abilities read like a fanboy's wishlist. He can't be ID'd, he gets 5 wounds with a 2+ armour save, 5 attacks at Str 10 with preferred enemy, has a 24" threat range and almost always goes first in combat. And a force weapon.

He can be ID'd. Not usually by high Strength (although GK can manage it due to the aforementioned Rad Grenades), but he's not an EW. S10, Preferred Enemy and his movement are all dependent on psychic powers successfully going off. He's usually casting 2-3 powers every turn, so some of them will occasionally fail and it's pretty common for him to deal a wound or two to himself in any given game via Perils.

azazel the cat wrote:My earlier point stands: if the opposing army has no reliable way of negating his psyker abilities, then Meph is brutal. And if you run an army that is sub-par is CC AND has no way of negating psyker abilities, then Mephiston is basically like pushing a win button. Granted, as a Necron player Mephiston is just about the worst thing to see in all of 40k on the other side of the table, but it doesn't change the fact that he is very overpowered. Yes, there are ways of bringing him down, but half of the armies require at least a full turn of concentrating their entire force to do so. That isn't balance.

I think Necrons are really kind of alone in this. Most other armies have power fists in squads, psychic defense, and/or sufficient AP1/AP2 firepower to kill him in a turn if they get the right positioning.

Mephiston is great, and can be a game-winner, but can also be 250pts of "I killed something and now I die", which can often be a liability for the BA player, as losing your psychic defense mid game can suck, and holding back a 250pt unit until late game can also be a handicap. Most of the time I prefer to field a cheaper HQ.

Mephiston is hardly OP. Sure some armies may find him a little harder than others, but when it comes down to it he is usually overrated. Shouldn't feel bad about taking him unless it is really killing the fun of the game with your friends, but then try to help them figure out how to deal with him first as it'll make up for it with them much more than simply retiring him.

The problem with the whole "shoot all your AP1/2 weapons at him and he might die in a few turns" tactic......is that it doesn't work......ever.......ever. Anyone who plays Mephiston is going to have him in cover until he jumps into your face and starts slaughtering your units left and right. He's a MC on a small base so you'll be lucky to ever even see him until he strikes. Besides, even if you do see him and get to shoot at him, he'll almost always get 4+ cover, AND you have to waste all your heavy shots on one broken model, leaving the rest of the BA army free to advance and annihilate your forces at will.

Sure, if you get lucky and the BA player is a moron, you might have Mephiston dead by turn 2 or 3, but that means all of those Razorbacks and Baals have had 2 or 3 turns of unanswered shooting phases. That kind of thing is fine in larger games or competitive ones, but in small games, there's no place for it. It's a WAAC tactic that turns people away from playing against that BA player. I've seen it happen several times.

bmoleski wrote:The problem with the whole "shoot all your AP1/2 weapons at him and he might die in a few turns" tactic......is that it doesn't work......ever.......ever. Anyone who plays Mephiston is going to have him in cover until he jumps into your face and starts slaughtering your units left and right. He's a MC on a small base so you'll be lucky to ever even see him until he strikes. Besides, even if you do see him and get to shoot at him, he'll almost always get 4+ cover, AND you have to waste all your heavy shots on one broken model, leaving the rest of the BA army free to advance and annihilate your forces at will.

This is really exaggerating the case, isn't it? If he has a good covered approach and no psychic defense is in position to stop him from flying, he'll usually charge on turn 2 or 3. Depending on what he charges he'll usually wipe it out, maybe suffering a wound or two in return if the unit had a power fist. Then he can Consolidate to get a cover save if favorable terrain is handy. If he gets that cover save, I agree it takes a lot of shooting to finish him off.

That's why it's important for the opposing player to set a trap for him, positioning the unit/s he can readily assault so that they're either not next to area terrain, or are non-walker vehicles which he can't consolidate after killing.

Alternately you can place your units deep into difficult terrain, to force a test for him. Remember that he's not an MC or IC, so doesn't have 3d6 move through cover. Just the basic 2d6.

Alternately he can be killed by a countercharge from an appropriate assault unit- the ubiquitous TH/SS terminators are good at killing him. Thunderwolves with a fist or TH or two (and Rending with their other attacks) will reliably get 2-3 wounds on him in a round.

Even Necrons can counter him to some extent with Mindshackle/Warscythe on non-IC Lords. Each round Mephy has a 50/50 chance of hitting himself in the face instead of attacking, and the Warscythe will put around 1W/rd on him. Nevermind actually using Lychguard, of course. LG with shields bounce half of his attacks and wound him on a 5+ with no save. And you can combine that with warscythe/mindshackle.
EDIT: Can't believe I forgot Wraiths! Coils make Mephy I1. Then six wraiths get 18 attacks (assuming Mephy charged), hit 9, inflict one rend and a few more armor saves. If they charge it's an average of 2 rends.

I don't feel that I exaggerated all that much (maybe a little ) as Mephiston does leave himself open to fire and getting charged after he has inevitably wiped out whatever unit he charged, but I've found that after he gets into combat, with all the wounds he has, he's most likely going to destroy several units before he is finally brought down. But like I said, his real strength comes from forcing you to concentrate on destroying HIM, or letting him plow through unit after unit as you concentrate on fighting the rest of the BA army. It becomes difficult to deal with both in smaller games as you probably don't have the resources for it. In larger games, however, I don't mind Mephiston. He just doesn't make for a fun game in smaller points.

Yeah, in small games (say below 1500) he's probably a bit much, though if folks have some assault terminators and/or a bit of plasma he can be dealt with.

A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special), but typically rarely wins his games due to his armies just being filled with overpowered units (ie Mesphiston, 20 Death Company, 2 Landraiders...flamy variants, and a few dreads is a 1500pts list). He hits pretty hard, but doesn't do so well against a few Leman Russ Demolishers or twenty orks on the charge. =P

The answer is plasma/melta, which most armies can field relatively easily. He's a mean son of a bitch, but not impossible to kill or anything. I had a rough time against him with my IG once though; that wasn't terribly fun.

If playing IG FRFSRF is your best man. Same procedure for lasguning termies. Make them save and those 1s will come up often enough.

Granted its a little harder to kill him due to higher toughness and wounds but the same principle. A leman Russ Execution helps too

Mannahnin wrote:

bmoleski wrote:The problem with the whole "shoot all your AP1/2 weapons at him and he might die in a few turns" tactic......is that it doesn't work......ever.......ever. Anyone who plays Mephiston is going to have him in cover until he jumps into your face and starts slaughtering your units left and right. He's a MC on a small base so you'll be lucky to ever even see him until he strikes. Besides, even if you do see him and get to shoot at him, he'll almost always get 4+ cover, AND you have to waste all your heavy shots on one broken model, leaving the rest of the BA army free to advance and annihilate your forces at will.

This is really exaggerating the case, isn't it? If he has a good covered approach and no psychic defense is in position to stop him from flying, he'll usually charge on turn 2 or 3. Depending on what he charges he'll usually wipe it out, maybe suffering a wound or two in return if the unit had a power fist. Then he can Consolidate to get a cover save if favorable terrain is handy. If he gets that cover save, I agree it takes a lot of shooting to finish him off.

That's why it's important for the opposing player to set a trap for him, positioning the unit/s he can readily assault so that they're either not next to area terrain, or are non-walker vehicles which he can't consolidate after killing.

Alternately you can place your units deep into difficult terrain, to force a test for him. Remember that he's not an MC or IC, so doesn't have 3d6 move through cover. Just the basic 2d6.

Alternately he can be killed by a countercharge from an appropriate assault unit- the ubiquitous TH/SS terminators are good at killing him. Thunderwolves with a fist or TH or two (and Rending with their other attacks) will reliably get 2-3 wounds on him in a round.

Even Necrons can counter him to some extent with Mindshackle/Warscythe on non-IC Lords. Each round Mephy has a 50/50 chance of hitting himself in the face instead of attacking, and the Warscythe will put around 1W/rd on him. Nevermind actually using Lychguard, of course. LG with shields bounce half of his attacks and wound him on a 5+ with no save. And you can combine that with warscythe/mindshackle.
EDIT: Can't believe I forgot Wraiths! Coils make Mephy I1. Then six wraiths get 18 attacks (assuming Mephy charged), hit 9, inflict one rend and a few more armor saves. If they charge it's an average of 2 rends.

Mind Shackle will actually do the trick. make him hit himself and then activate his own force weapon. and poof. mephi problem solved. It has happened to me before! Also, JoWW can kill him as well. Although it is a bit harder as you would need mephi to roll a 6 on his Initiative test.....

I also agree with TWC being able to deal with him easily enough. In my view TWC are OP and are an instant win once they get into CC (which usually happens around turn 2). Although they can be countered by just standing in a ruin, denying them the ability to assault you.....

I guess it really just depends on the opponent. If they don't mind, then I will field him. if they do i will switch him out. What it all boils down to is that 40K is a game and is meant to be fun, some people just don't see it that way. They always say that if you want to be a better player you need to play "up" to get there. It will just increase your abilities as a tactician and will help you in the future.

Wyrmalla wrote:A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special), but typically rarely wins his games due to his armies just being filled with overpowered units (ie Mesphiston, 20 Death Company, 2 Landraiders...flamy variants, and a few dreads is a 1500pts list). He hits pretty hard, but doesn't do so well against a few Leman Russ Demolishers or twenty orks on the charge. =P

DC, Redeemers and Dreads aren't exactly 'overpowered' or even 'good.' He's losing because his list is bad regardless of Mephiston.

Corrode wrote:

Wyrmalla wrote:A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special), but typically rarely wins his games due to his armies just being filled with overpowered units (ie Mesphiston, 20 Death Company, 2 Landraiders...flamy variants, and a few dreads is a 1500pts list). He hits pretty hard, but doesn't do so well against a few Leman Russ Demolishers or twenty orks on the charge. =P

DC, Redeemers and Dreads aren't exactly 'overpowered' or even 'good.' He's losing because his list is bad regardless of Mephiston.

In a club where most everyone takes take on all comers lists facing an army that consists of two dozen models at best is a bit off putting. I wouldn't bad mouth the guy calling him bad, the guys I play against are all as terrible as each other, so it evens out. =P

Wyrmalla wrote:

Corrode wrote:

Wyrmalla wrote:A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special), but typically rarely wins his games due to his armies just being filled with overpowered units (ie Mesphiston, 20 Death Company, 2 Landraiders...flamy variants, and a few dreads is a 1500pts list). He hits pretty hard, but doesn't do so well against a few Leman Russ Demolishers or twenty orks on the charge. =P

DC, Redeemers and Dreads aren't exactly 'overpowered' or even 'good.' He's losing because his list is bad regardless of Mephiston.

In a club where most everyone takes take on all comers lists facing an army that consists of two dozen models at best is a bit off putting. I wouldn't bad mouth the guy calling him bad, the guys I play against are all as terrible as each other, so it evens out. =P

so his army can't hold objectives, has two tanks which are point sinks and die at the sniff of a melta/lance (which they will be in range of seeing as LRRs only work at close range) and an HQ who dies to mass small arms fire and at best has 24 models? and you'r calling this broken/OP ?

A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special),

So you insult him for playing a ward dex and you insult him for playing Mephiston? You are friends right?

I'm right there with the guy who dosen't field special characters in games under 2k........

GW haven't priced a character right in years......

They are so cheap..... and basically ruin games outright by being on the field..

Vulkan, Meph, Draigo etc are all way to cheap.... re reolling melta guns for the same price as a tooled up captain is ludicrous....

And why would a forge father be in a fight at 1500 pts? He goes to battles not a sunday afternoon pea shooter evenet...

but that is just me =]

Deadshot wrote:If playing IG FRFSRF is your best man. Same procedure for lasguning termies. Make them save and those 1s will come up often enough.

It takes 390 Lasgun shots to kill him. Good luck!

Any game using Mephiston is not a friendly game IMHO.

I've never really had a problem with Mephiston. I havne't had to much trouble dealing with him, with my Necrons. I've got an abundant amount of tools to deal with him.

For Necron Players, a few sweeps, and a few Eldritch lances toast him pretty quick.

I had a friend unload 3 full guard companies of footsloggers on Meph with FRFSRF and he took 2 wounds. As has been said, his strength is that he's something you simply cannot ignore, and takes a bit of killing to bring down.

I've also charged Meph into a full mob of biker nobz with power claws, and had him die to the counterattack. And if someone's fielding anything that forces psychic tests on 3d6, he does little more than die horribly from perils tests.

Using FRFSRF against Mephiston is like using a fly swatter (or rather, a series of fly swatters) to stop a steamroller. It's the wrong tool for the job. Plasma will do you.

Also, the guy saying Death Company and Land Raider Redeemers are cheesy is telling a really funny joke and doesn't even know it. DC aren't very good at all, and Land Raider Redeemers conveniently need to be close enough that melta guns and powerklaws - their natural enemies - can be in optimal range.

bmoleski wrote:The problem with the whole "shoot all your AP1/2 weapons at him and he might die in a few turns" tactic......is that it doesn't work......ever.......ever. Anyone who plays Mephiston is going to have him in cover until he jumps into your face and starts slaughtering your units left and right. He's a MC on a small base so you'll be lucky to ever even see him until he strikes. Besides, even if you do see him and get to shoot at him, he'll almost always get 4+ cover, AND you have to waste all your heavy shots on one broken model, leaving the rest of the BA army free to advance and annihilate your forces at will.

Sure, if you get lucky and the BA player is a moron, you might have Mephiston dead by turn 2 or 3, but that means all of those Razorbacks and Baals have had 2 or 3 turns of unanswered shooting phases. That kind of thing is fine in larger games or competitive ones, but in small games, there's no place for it. It's a WAAC tactic that turns people away from playing against that BA player. I've seen it happen several times.

This is exactly correct, and not one bit exaggerated.

If Meph didn't have Fleet and Wings of Sanguinius, then he'd be just fine. But hes so fast and has such a large threat range that even things like Mindshackle Scarabs don't work, because Meph can just outrun them and wipe out everything else. Also, MSS only have a 50% success rate against Ld 10

Falco wrote:Mind Shackle will actually do the trick. make him hit himself and then activate his own force weapon. and poof. mephi problem solved.

You can not force Meph to "activate his own force weapon", as the MSS only allow hits to be done to Meph. It does not mention that the necron player gets to use the opponents Psychic powers.

DeathReaper wrote:

Falco wrote:Mind Shackle will actually do the trick. make him hit himself and then activate his own force weapon. and poof. mephi problem solved.

You can not force Meph to "activate his own force weapon", as the MSS only allow hits to be done to Meph. It does not mention that the necron player gets to use the opponents Psychic powers.

I'm not willing to start this all up again, because there have been several very ugly threads about it. However, I will say this: many people disagree with you, and this question needs to be FAQ'd. Now, let's move on before this question completely derails the thread.

Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

pppffft! asdrubael vect will eat him for breakfast! I killed him on the charge.. he didn't even get to hit back!

azazel the cat wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You can not force Meph to "activate his own force weapon", as the MSS only allow hits to be done to Meph. It does not mention that the necron player gets to use the opponents Psychic powers.

I'm not willing to start this all up again, because there have been several very ugly threads about it. However, I will say this: many people disagree with you, and this question needs to be FAQ'd. Now, let's move on before this question completely derails the thread.

If they disagree then they really need to read the rules in question to solve their disagreement.

But yes it has been discussed at length and does not need to be rehashed here.

P.S. Mephiston is good, and will generally kill more than a land raider for the same points, but without an Invuln save he is not OP.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

bmoleski wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

All of them?

Necrons have wraiths and various other tricks
Eldar have mapwide 3D6 for his psyker rolls
All space marines (cept BT) have librarian hoods
Khorne chaos daemons have 2+ inv saves vs his force weapon,
Imperial Guard can run him off the table with their OP psyker ability weaken resolve, or tarpit him in a huge wave of units, or all the various artillery, plasma, and melta...
Tau have at least 3 suits with plasma guns that can kite him
Sisters of battle have plenty of melta, multimelta, rending heavy bolters, sister repentia that can still hit him even if they die.
Orks...Have issues there, though they can Deff Rolla him.
Dark eldar have tons of dark lights, blasters, and enough poisoned weapons that he won't survive to make his time
Tyranids can shadow of the warp him, as well as down him with paroxysm

So the only race with a real issue, is black templar which has no real counter aside from massive numbers of attacks.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special),

So you insult him for playing a ward dex and you insult him for playing Mephiston? You are friends right?

0.o How else do you talk to your wargamer buddies?

Wyrmalla wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

A mate of mine, the kind of mate that you throw insults at constantly during a game, takes him in almost every list he plays. He gets a lot of abuse for it (well we insult him for playing a codex written by Mr Ward in general, but this is extra special),

So you insult him for playing a ward dex and you insult him for playing Mephiston? You are friends right?

0.o How else do you talk to your wargamer buddies?

As for original topic, do you have some specifics to give about armies / people who will be your opponents? Or are you asking about the reaction of random people?
Because as you can see in this thread the reactions can be from absolutely not to absolutely yes. It's better to gather info from the target. So no one here can give you a definite answer how random people will react / feel.
If you know someone don't have appropriate minis to field a force that can oppose him it would be a nice thing to let mephy stay at home.

A good comparison for Mephiston is the Trygon prime, ones a Psyker the other has Shadow in the Warp, neither have invulnerables, both are S6 and T6, Meph has 1 wound and 1 standard attack less. Both can re-roll to hit, both can Fleet but Meph can fly as well if he passes the test. The Trygon's shooting attack is better IMO. They seem very similar but I see no hate against Trygons, let alone the fact that you can take 3.

phantommaster wrote:A good comparison for Mephiston is the Trygon prime, ones a Psyker the other has Shadow in the Warp, neither have invulnerables, both are S6 and T6, Meph has 1 wound and 1 standard attack less. Both can re-roll to hit, both can Fleet but Meph can fly as well if he passes the test. The Trygon's shooting attack is better IMO. They seem very similar but I see no hate against Trygons, let alone the fact that you can take 3.

Trygon is also one of the biggest models in the game (excluding Forge World), so you aren't gonna find it cover anywhere. Besides, those two units have two very different roles.

Mephiston can get cover easier but he can also take a Perils, fail Dangerous Terrain if he jumps in or out, lots can go wrong and it has done to me on many occasions. I even had him die from a Monolith exploding.

I don't believe they have different roles. They are both designed to hit at the hardest part of the enemy and win. Neither can sit back and hope for the best they both have to get stuck in or they're just a waste of points.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So the only race with a real issue, is black templar which has no real counter aside from massive numbers of attacks.

Use Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch. Roll a 5+ to cancel any psychic power mapwide.

Deadshot wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So the only race with a real issue, is black templar which has no real counter aside from massive numbers of attacks.

Use Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch. Roll a 5+ to cancel any psychic power mapwide.

That's only for abilities that target or include them in the AoE, it is NOT a map wide librarians hood.

As Mephistons abilities are self-targetted, this ability is worthless.

It's also never taken over preferred enemy or the S5 one.

As an Imperial Guard player i just have him charge a blob. He can only kill at best 6 on the charge. Whopie do ho. Your badass monsterous creature killed 6 guardsmen. Please excuse me while the rest of my army blows you away while mephi is tarpitted.

Horribley op you say? Then why is it in the first round I killed him with 12 heavy bolter shots?

Asherian Command wrote:Horribley op you say? Then why is it in the first round I killed him with 12 heavy bolter shots?

You got incredibly lucky. I assume you were shooting Space Marines so BS4? So only 8 should've hit. Heavy Bolter is S5 correct? So I'll round up and say you should've gotten about 4 wounds. He has a 2+ save so he should've saved most if not all of them.

Yeah you got very lucky. Doesn't make him any less OP.

Deadshot wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So the only race with a real issue, is black templar which has no real counter aside from massive numbers of attacks.

Use Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch. Roll a 5+ to cancel any psychic power mapwide.

Better yet, take Accept Any Challenge because it's always useful, then hit him with TH/SS Terminators. They'll block most of his attacks with their shields, then turn him into hamburger with their thunder hammers. They're pretty close to being a hard counter for Mephiston and big expensive units/characters without invuln saves.

bmoleski wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As an Imperial Guard player i just have him charge a blob. He can only kill at best 6 on the charge. Whopie do ho. Your badass monsterous creature killed 6 guardsmen. Please excuse me while the rest of my army blows you away while mephi is tarpitted.

The BA player who uses Meph to target the blob is dumb, if theres even a blob. With IG so often mech'd up, he's even more dangerous.

I know what you're saying, but a BA player will be using him to destroy small squads and larger units, not to assault a a guardsmen blob w/o more troops.

Twiqbal wrote:know what you're saying, but a BA player will be using him to destroy small squads and larger units, not to assault a a guardsmen blob w/o more troops.

You assume that most people aren't terrible at this game.

I get that most armies can deal with him at the larger point levels, but not in the smaller games. He doesn't belong in smaller games. Most armies don't have what it takes to deal with him in smaller games.

bmoleski wrote:I get that most armies can deal with him at the larger point levels, but not in the smaller games. He doesn't belong in smaller games. Most armies don't have what it takes to deal with him in smaller games.

Conversely, he costs more than a Land Raider and if you can tarpit him or kite him then you're effectively playing up 250 points.

Mannahnin wrote:

bmoleski wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

If by 'careful' you mean 'keep him in area terrain', then yes. However, that is extremely easy considering 25% of the board should be terrain, and Meph can move 13-18" each turn.
And Sweep Attacks will only only hit 2 out of 3 swings if the Barge moves 6" or less. Against Meph's T6, only 1 will wound. So now the CCB w/ Overlord has taken off 1 of Meph's 5 wounds. Then Meph moves behind the barge, destroys it with his Plasma Pistol, then proceeds to assault and kill the Overlord.

With regard to Wraiths, a full unit will knock off 2-3 wounds from Mephiston before he wipes out two-thirds of the unit. The second round can go either way based on luck. However, a full Wraith unit costs about the same as Mephiston, and you get a 50% chance at best of killing him.

Yes, Necrons have many ways to chip away at Mephiston, but they have no singular answer. This goes back to what I said previously: it requires focusing the entire army for at least a full turn in order to kill Mephiston: that's something that will often lose you the game even when you do bring him down.

Here is a list of armies that can deal with Meph is a reasonable manner:
Grey Knights (massed force weapons)
Space Wolves (Rune Priests)
Eldar (Eldrad)
Demons (power weapons)

The problem with Mephiston is his speed. He can outrun virtually anything he doesn't want to engage with, so any remotely competent player will always be using Meph to fight on his own terms. If you take away either Wings of Sanguinius or Fleet, then Meph becomes reasonable. Or else you take away 2 of his wounds. But as it is, he is the single most overpowered model in 40k. Lots of people claim that he's not overpowered because he doesn't have an invulnerable save, but that wouldn't be overpowered; that would be nigh invincible.

azazel the cat wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

If by 'careful' you mean 'keep him in area terrain', then yes. However, that is extremely easy considering 25% of the board should be terrain, and Meph can move 13-18" each turn.

If he begins or ends his move in Area Terrain, and uses his Wings, he has a 1/6 chance of suffering a wound with no save. Make sure your opponent is taking those checks!

azazel the cat wrote:And Sweep Attacks will only only hit 2 out of 3 swings if the Barge moves 6" or less. Against Meph's T6, only 1 will wound. So now the CCB w/ Overlord has taken off 1 of Meph's 5 wounds. Then Meph moves behind the barge, destroys it with his Plasma Pistol, then proceeds to assault and kill the Overlord.

The odds of Meph shooting down the barge with his plasma pistol are similar to the chances of dealing 3 wounds to him with a single sweep attack. If the Overlord has mindshackle scarabs (as he usually does), then Meph has a 50/50 chance of attacking himself instead of the Overlord.

azazel the cat wrote:Yes, Necrons have many ways to chip away at Mephiston, but they have no singular answer.

That's true of every army fighting a deathstar HtH unit which doesn't have its own deathstar. And usually the non-DS armies are tactically superior because they have more flexibility.

azazel the cat wrote:This goes back to what I said previously: it requires focusing the entire army for at least a full turn in order to kill Mephiston:

Not in my experience. Don't waste shots which have a low percentage. Hit him with the stuff that reliably wounds him, and use the stuff that doesn't against the rest of the army.

azazel the cat wrote:The problem with Mephiston is his speed. He can outrun virtually anything he doesn't want to engage with, so any remotely competent player will always be using Meph to fight on his own terms.

This is not true in my experience. You can easily lay traps for him, expose him to fire, and kill him. At 250pts he usually has to eat more than two units to equal out his cost. And against a competent opponent it's hard to do that. It takes him 2-3 turns just to get to the first one.

azazel the cat wrote: If you take away either Wings of Sanguinius or Fleet, then Meph becomes reasonable.

If you can negate wings he becomes 250pts of wasted space, for the most part. When Runes of Witnessing is on the table he sucks.

azazel the cat wrote: Or else you take away 2 of his wounds. But as it is, he is the single most overpowered model in 40k. Lots of people claim that he's not overpowered because he doesn't have an invulnerable save, but that wouldn't be overpowered; that would be nigh invincible.

The Psyfleman Dread is better, point for point. As is the Grey Hunter.

I never realized "friendly game" meant "don't use the units I want to use".

I mean, there are two reasons to play a game and they are non exclusive: Have fun, and win. You can do these things by being a nice person when you play, not by arbitrarily restricting your list.

I'll play against any army and build, I'll probably lose because I am not actually that great, but I only won't have fun if the other guy is being a dick, and not if he takes Mephiston/Draigo/Ghaz/whoever else is considered OP this month.

The only time I would consider limiting myself is if I regularly play with a small group of people and none of them have been able to figure out an answer for my list and are clearly getting frustrated, then in the interests of diplomacy I might change things up a bit. Ideally I'd work with them on building a better army but you do what you have to do to keep friends happy.

Who/what is the Grey Hunter?

bmoleski wrote:Who/what is the Grey Hunter?

It is a SW troops choice.

Meph is not nearly as OP as people like to make out he is. If your army cannot deal with him, then your list is not good enough. And most likely couldn't deal with an all-termie army or paladins either.

Raise your game, never lower it.

I can see by the number of comments on this thread that it is a 50/50 shot of being a dick or just challenging your opponent. I don't think that Mephi should be restricted to the type of game you play. I think it should depend on the local meta game. I play at a store with a fair number of new players and would never put him in a game with said new guys. I will only play him against other players around the same skill set as myself or those wishing to get better (which should be everyone). But of course there are those players that just like to whine about loosing. If i want to sink 15-25% of my list into a single unit I should be able to. It would be like a GK player going up against a Nids player. That is basically instant win as every unit on the table has s force weapon and can remove MC with a single wound going through. I think that GW made him a fair unit as he is not able to join other units. If Mephi was able to join a unit of TH/SS termies or deep strike that would just be unfair, but since he cant, he is out there solo. Also, with the amount of AP 1/2 weapons that seem to be dominating the game right now (melta/plasma/lascannons, etc.) most armies should be able to deal with him. I think that a lot of the whining now comes from the older codices. Maybe 6th ed will see a change in the way lists are made and mephi will not be seen as much.

Also, I think that Tau can deal with him no problem. Missile Pods and Plasma make short work of him.

bmoleski wrote:Who/what is the Grey Hunter?

Your gaming group is awesome, and I want to play in it. It must be the promised land, or something. A Grey Hunter is the basic troop choice for Space Wolves. They are almost universally considered to be 15-20% undercosted, with probably the most flexibility of any troop option in 40k.

Mannahnin wrote:Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

Mannahnin wrote:If he begins or ends his move in Area Terrain, and uses his Wings, he has a 1/6 chance of suffering a wound with no save. Make sure your opponent is taking those checks!

Mephiston would have to take 30 DT tests in order to get killed. At most, he will have to take 2 or 3 before he's where his general wants him to be.

Mannahnin wrote:The odds of Meph shooting down the barge with his plasma pistol are similar to the chances of dealing 3 wounds to him with a single sweep attack. If the Overlord has mindshackle scarabs (as he usually does), then Meph has a 50/50 chance of attacking himself instead of the Overlord.

Plasma Gun has Str 7, so it has a 1/3 chance to pen the rear armour of a CCB, and a 50% chance to at least glance it, which gets a +1 on the damage chart because it is open-topped.

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Yes, Necrons have many ways to chip away at Mephiston, but they have no singular answer.

That's true of every army fighting a deathstar HtH unit which doesn't have its own deathstar. And usually the non-DS armies are tactically superior because they have more flexibility.

The problem is that most deathstars can't move 13-18" per turn and still assault, and completely hide in terrain, because most deathstars aren't a single, small model with Fleet that can fly. Meph's high initiative, number of attacks and his Force Weapon prevent him from being successfully tarpitted by anything cheap enough to be used as a tarpit. So unless you have a horde army, Meph will stomp his way through your unit.

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:This goes back to what I said previously: it requires focusing the entire army for at least a full turn in order to kill Mephiston:

Not in my experience. Don't waste shots which have a low percentage. Hit him with the stuff that reliably wounds him, and use the stuff that doesn't against the rest of the army.

Here is a list of Necron units that can reliably wound Meph via shooting (because CC Necrons cannot catch Meph): Heavy Destroyers, Lanceteks. That is all. Keep in mind, this is an army with zero options to negate psychic powers, very expensive transports, and I2.

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:The problem with Mephiston is his speed. He can outrun virtually anything he doesn't want to engage with, so any remotely competent player will always be using Meph to fight on his own terms.

This is not true in my experience. You can easily lay traps for him, expose him to fire, and kill him. At 250pts he usually has to eat more than two units to equal out his cost. And against a competent opponent it's hard to do that. It takes him 2-3 turns just to get to the first one.

There have been times when I've managed to sacrifice a CCB in order to knock off a wound or two, and then used two units of Heavy Destroyers to bring Meph down. But that's a huge investment of resources, meanwhile Meph's army is full of fast vehicles that are advancing. Also: Meph only has to sink two Necron vehicles to get his points back. Or one transport and its troops.

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote: If you take away either Wings of Sanguinius or Fleet, then Meph becomes reasonable.

If you can negate wings he becomes 250pts of wasted space, for the most part. When Runes of Witnessing is on the table he sucks.

No, he becomes a reasonable unit. How many armies, exactly, have access to Runes of Witnessing?

Mannahnin wrote:

azazel the cat wrote: Or else you take away 2 of his wounds. But as it is, he is the single most overpowered model in 40k. Lots of people claim that he's not overpowered because he doesn't have an invulnerable save, but that wouldn't be overpowered; that would be nigh invincible.

The Psyfleman Dread is better, point for point. As is the Grey Hunter.

I can't compare the Psyfleman Dread because my experience with them is very limited. However, I would say that the Grey Hunter, point for point, is either on par or close enough that the power difference is negligible. I suppose I can concede that the Grey Hunter is better because they can play every role in 40k, including scoring, whereas Meph only has two roles: wreck your opponent's face, and a firepower sink.

However, I think I mentioned several pages ago that as a Necron player, I am horribly biased against Mephiston, as his rules set seems like it was almost designed to kill the Necrons specifically. (in the same way that Necrons seem like they were designed to kill IG specifically)

Wow that's a big post...

lol the way it was originally worded (the Grey Hunter) I thought they were talking about a single model/character....lol there are several SW players in my group who use Grey Hunters.....I feel stupid

haha azazel, according to certain pieces of fluff, the BA and the Necrons are allies!

Falco wrote:haha azazel, according to certain pieces of fluff, the BA and the Necrons are allies!

I knew that picture was going to show up as soon as Falco said it

haha only a matter of time......I love this game.

The sweep attack is part of movement so you can turn around to face meph on the other side and if he was going around a flank to hug terrain you probably won't be exposing the rear armor to enemy shooting by doing so. He can probably fly all the way back to the rear armor but that's 12" in the wrong direction to only get about a 16% chance of wrecking the barge with the pistol.

Necrons might not have any singular fix but that's not the same as it taking overwhelming effort to stop him, a few shots, a sweep, a few warscythe/hyperphase/rending/monstrous creature/successful shackle hits once he reaches you. Same as deamon princes or big nids. Not tough.

He's a monstrous creature on a 25mm base, he maybe surprises people that don't know about him the first time they face him but he's really not OP, just a solid unit you need to look out for.

azazel the cat wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

bmoleski wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Well for those who think Meph is overpowered.

Name what armies he's overpowered against? It should be a better way of concluding it.

Um....all of them? Cept maybe GK, SW, and obviously BA. Mephiston vs. Mephiston.....who would win

Any army, from any codex, built to compete and win in a normal tournament, can kill Mephiston, without needing to get lucky.

Heck, I can't believe I forgot CCB warscythe Sweep attacks in the list of things Necrons can do about him! You really have to be careful or lucky using Meph against Necrons, or have an incompetent opponent.

If by 'careful' you mean 'keep him in area terrain', then yes. However, that is extremely easy considering 25% of the board should be terrain, and Meph can move 13-18" each turn.
And Sweep Attacks will only only hit 2 out of 3 swings if the Barge moves 6" or less. Against Meph's T6, only 1 will wound. So now the CCB w/ Overlord has taken off 1 of Meph's 5 wounds. Then Meph moves behind the barge, destroys it with his Plasma Pistol, then proceeds to assault and kill the Overlord.

With regard to Wraiths, a full unit will knock off 2-3 wounds from Mephiston before he wipes out two-thirds of the unit. The second round can go either way based on luck. However, a full Wraith unit costs about the same as Mephiston, and you get a 50% chance at best of killing him.

Yes, Necrons have many ways to chip away at Mephiston, but they have no singular answer. This goes back to what I said previously: it requires focusing the entire army for at least a full turn in order to kill Mephiston: that's something that will often lose you the game even when you do bring him down.

Here is a list of armies that can deal with Meph is a reasonable manner:
Grey Knights (massed force weapons)
Space Wolves (Rune Priests)
Eldar (Eldrad)
Demons (power weapons)

The problem with Mephiston is his speed. He can outrun virtually anything he doesn't want to engage with, so any remotely competent player will always be using Meph to fight on his own terms. If you take away either Wings of Sanguinius or Fleet, then Meph becomes reasonable. Or else you take away 2 of his wounds. But as it is, he is the single most overpowered model in 40k. Lots of people claim that he's not overpowered because he doesn't have an invulnerable save, but that wouldn't be overpowered; that would be nigh invincible.

Necrons have wraiths that lower him to I1 and rending and various other tricks
Eldar have mapwide 3D6 for his psyker rolls
All space marines (cept BT) have librarian hoods
Khorne chaos daemons have 2+ inv saves vs his force weapon,
Imperial Guard can run him off the table with their OP psyker ability weaken resolve, or tarpit him in a huge wave of units, or all the various artillery, plasma, and melta...
Tau have at least 3 suits with plasma guns that can kite him
Sisters of battle have plenty of melta, multimelta, rending heavy bolters, sister repentia that can still hit him even if they die.
Orks...Have issues there, though they can Deff Rolla him.
Dark eldar have tons of dark lights, blasters, and enough poisoned weapons that he won't survive to make his time
Tyranids can shadow of the warp him, as well as down him with paroxysm, and lowers him to I1 with instant death ability on weapons.

Since you all ignore it on the second page..

I think people ignored it because most of those tactics don't actually work very well against him. Sure they're gimmicks that can slow him down a little, but they're not that effective.

bmoleski wrote:I think people ignored it because most of those tactics don't actually work very well against him. Sure they're gimmicks that can slow him down a little, but they're not that effective.

Gimmicks that just slow him down? I picked out the ones that accurately can help kill him (well cept the space marine one, but hey I was reaching a bit)

Can he be put in a squad ??? What about a transport?? He's not an ic right ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can he be put in a squad ??? What about a transport?? He's not an ic right ?

He can be put in a transport.

But he is not an IC so he is always solo.

Twiqbal wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As an Imperial Guard player i just have him charge a blob. He can only kill at best 6 on the charge. Whopie do ho. Your badass monsterous creature killed 6 guardsmen. Please excuse me while the rest of my army blows you away while mephi is tarpitted.

The BA player who uses Meph to target the blob is dumb, if theres even a blob. With IG so often mech'd up, he's even more dangerous.

I know what you're saying, but a BA player will be using him to destroy small squads and larger units, not to assault a a guardsmen blob w/o more troops.

Ive been playing foot guard with leman russ support, so no av 12 tanks. I screen my tanks with blobs, and make sure mephi can only assualt a blob, that can kill him eventually. If he doesnt he gets shot and/or assualted. If he runs hes not a threat. Even mech guard should easily counter him, with all the melta and plasma spam, or even the lascannon spam from vendettas. He doesnt seem that big a threat to my imperial guard. Now to any army lacking high str low ap spam yeah, hes a threat.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Imperial Guard can run him off the table with their OP psyker ability weaken resolve, or tarpit him in a huge wave of units, or all the various artillery, plasma, and melta...

Weaken Resolve is basically meaningless against Meph unless you beat him in combat. The only likely ways to do that are via multiassault or beating him/killing him. They can kill the heck out of him with plasma/melta units, though, especially with orders to make themeselves re-roll to hit or make him re-roll successful cover saves.

Mannahnin wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Imperial Guard can run him off the table with their OP psyker ability weaken resolve, or tarpit him in a huge wave of units, or all the various artillery, plasma, and melta...

Weaken Resolve is basically meaningless against Meph unless you beat him in combat. The only likely ways to do that are via multiassault or beating him/killing him. They can kill the heck out of him with plasma/melta units, though, especially with orders to make themeselves re-roll to hit or make him re-roll successful cover saves.

True enough, I will be honest most of my experience with IG comes from reading the dex, rather than personal playthroughs.

I don't see how I'm the only person who chimed in with TH/SS Terminators. Even if he hits with all 6 attacks they're going to save 2/3 of the time anyway. When they hit they'll knock him down to I1 and ignore his armor and FNP. Hell, they even get to wound him on 2s.

Brother SRM wrote:I don't see how I'm the only person who chimed in with TH/SS Terminators. Even if he hits with all 6 attacks they're going to save 2/3 of the time anyway. When they hit they'll knock him down to I1 and ignore his armor and FNP. Hell, they even get to wound him on 2s.

And how, exactly, are those TH/SS Terminators supposed to get into CC with Meph?

azazel the cat wrote:
And how, exactly, are those TH/SS Terminators supposed to get into CC with Meph?

Land Raider, fleet with Shrike, Storm Raven if you're doing a mirror match, tie up Mephiston with some chaff unit to buy time till they charge in and so on.

he can commandeer a Transport, but he counts as a One Man squad.


Edit- Ninjad by a few hours. XD

Brother SRM wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:
And how, exactly, are those TH/SS Terminators supposed to get into CC with Meph?

Land Raider, fleet with Shrike, Storm Raven if you're doing a mirror match, tie up Mephiston with some chaff unit to buy time till they charge in and so on.

Meph moves faster than a Land Raider.
Storm Ravens typically get shot down turn 1 in my experience
And you can't tie Meph up with chaff, because Meph has no reason to engage with chaff, and chaff cannot catch Mephiston due to his speed. Kinda my whole point: due to his speed, Meph generally has to be shot to death, and that can be very tough for a lot of armies.

Even if Mephiston attacks something that isn't purely chaff, he can't consolidate that far away. Mephiston might be able to fly 12" and run up to 6", but a Land Raider can move 12", have its troops disembark 2", and the cargo can assault out for 6". They can definitely catch him. It's a very specific counter and not every army with TH/SS Termies has a Raider, but he isn't strictly faster than a Land Raider.

As for Storm Ravens getting shot down turn 1, that's just bad luck and positioning. Have them outflank if your opponent has tons of long range AV.

I will agree that he generally has to be shot to death, but there are ways to catch him and beat him in CC with a few very certain units.

Brother SRM wrote:As for Storm Ravens getting shot down turn 1, that's just bad luck and positioning. Have them outflank if your opponent has tons of long range AV.

Storm Ravens can not Outflank.

They generally get shot down turn 1 or 2, due to ML Dev's or Preds with Las/Autocannon., because the SR is only AV 12

But one move is all you really need to get your TH/SS terminators in a great position.

Someone asked earlier what about his fluff I do not like.

This is just my opinion, but it is shared by just about all of my gaming buddies

Mephistons fluff is basically hinting that, if he lives long enough, he will be just as strong as A PRIMARCH. Look for where it talks about him "unlocking more of the geneseeds potential as the years go by"

If you area true WH40k fan, this should make your blood boil.

Anyone else ever seen that meme about Matt Ward wanting to bring back Roboute Guillimen? ......

Mephiston is my favourite Blood Angels character, but I have to admit that Mat Ward's rules in this edition make me a little sad.

That said, at least he's not the Sanguinor.

Oh god... I love herohammer... :O
NOT!

It's true that TH/SS assault termies will kill Meph pretty easily. But then, there's few things they can't kill easily

Quick qeustion about Mephy, where in the codex does it say that he can't join a squad? I can't seem to find anything like that in the codex.

sub-zero wrote:Quick qeustion about Mephy, where in the codex does it say that he can't join a squad? I can't seem to find anything like that in the codex.

He isn't an independent character.

Thus, no squad joining.

sub-zero wrote:Quick qeustion about Mephy, where in the codex does it say that he can't join a squad? I can't seem to find anything like that in the codex.

He counts as a squad by himself. The only way a model can join a squad is if they have the Independent Character USR. Mephiston doesn't have that, so he can't join a squad.

I apologize for sounding redundant, but I don't see what your refering too in the codex.

sub-zero wrote:I apologize for sounding redundant, but I don't see what your refering too in the codex.

Under Mephi's special rules. There is no entry for him being an IC. If you look at Dante you will see IC under his special rules. Allowing him to be attached to a unit. You will see that the sanguinor does not have it either.

Falco wrote:

sub-zero wrote:I apologize for sounding redundant, but I don't see what your refering too in the codex.

Under Mephi's special rules. There is no entry for him being an IC. If you look at Dante you will see IC under his special rules. Allowing him to be attached to a unit. You will see that the sanguinor does not have it either.

I see that now, thank you for the clarification.

It's not in the codex. It's in the rule book. For a unit to be able to join and leave other units, they have to be Independent Characters. Mephiston doesn't have that USR. So he can't join any other units (except he can still get inside of transports). Think of him as a terminator squad. A termy squad can't join a unit of tac marines right? It's because they are a separate unit and units can't join other units. Certain characters can but only because they have the IC USR. If you look through the BA codex, all the named characters have it except Mephiston. That's how it is in pretty much all the codices.


Oh I posted a little too late.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:Mephiston is only OP and abit much for some games under certain conditions.

Using him in anything under 1000 points is just plain unfair as most armies will have to focus everything they have on him to maybe kill him in one or two turns.

Also, some armies with older Codexes have alot of trouble bringing him down because there AP2 weapons cost way to much(I'm looking at you Tau and Eldar codexes). So, I would say in the spirit of fair play, bringing him against these opponents is non-friendly.

I also want to say, for the record, I HATE his fluff. Its the second stupidest thing I have ever read in a 40k Codex, right after Draigo's fluff.

Eldar can have a cheap unit of meltas, 80pts for 5. They also have great BS. I'd have more than 5 personally, but they can melt Mephie in a single turn (and have). Eldar have easy solutions to him, especially with Runes of Warding around to neuter his psychic abilities. They turn Mephie into their prison-house shower-buddy, or at least should, if the Eldar player is decent at all. Also, regular libbies can kill him, and should have a storm shield, GKs can kill him, BA can razor-spam him, DE can kite him with poison, or long range dark lances on ravagers/raiders, Tau can blast him with plasma, etc, etc. Every army has answers. Mephiston is fine. Hell, take him in a 750pt list if you want. Just means you have less on the table. In fact, here: I'll take 2 units of Fire Dragons in serpents, a Farseer and small units of Guardians with platform weapons (starcannons, probably). You can take Mephie and your 500pts of other models. I see Eldar winning this fight...

timetowaste85 wrote:

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:Mephiston is only OP and abit much for some games under certain conditions.

Using him in anything under 1000 points is just plain unfair as most armies will have to focus everything they have on him to maybe kill him in one or two turns.

Also, some armies with older Codexes have alot of trouble bringing him down because there AP2 weapons cost way to much(I'm looking at you Tau and Eldar codexes). So, I would say in the spirit of fair play, bringing him against these opponents is non-friendly.

I also want to say, for the record, I HATE his fluff. Its the second stupidest thing I have ever read in a 40k Codex, right after Draigo's fluff.

Eldar can have a cheap unit of meltas, 80pts for 5. They also have great BS. I'd have more than 5 personally, but they can melt Mephie in a single turn (and have). Eldar have easy solutions to him, especially with Runes of Warding around to neuter his psychic abilities. They turn Mephie into their prison-house shower-buddy, or at least should, if the Eldar player is decent at all. Also, regular libbies can kill him, and should have a storm shield, GKs can kill him, BA can razor-spam him, DE can kite him with poison, or long range dark lances on ravagers/raiders, Tau can blast him with plasma, etc, etc. Every army has answers. Mephiston is fine. Hell, take him in a 750pt list if you want. Just means you have less on the table. In fact, here: I'll take 2 units of Fire Dragons in serpents, a Farseer and small units of Guardians with platform weapons (starcannons, probably). You can take Mephie and your 500pts of other models. I see Eldar winning this fight...

Killing Mephiston When you know full well you're going to be fighting him is a lot different to killing Mephiston when you've prepared anti-MEQ/rhino list.
Would you really bring two units of Fire Dragons in serpents, a farseer and some guardians in a "normal" 750 game? What do you think would happen if your BA oponant instead had a DOA list? Suddenly you're fighting an army wide FNP/FC MEQ list.
This is one of the hidden benefits of such models. It's all well DERP DERP YOU NOOB Y U NOT HANDLE MEPHISTON but if your opponent can switch between a monsterous creature based army to a MEQ one whenever he wants, you're going to struggle to deal with either of those eventualities with the same list.

Killing Mephiston When you know full well you're going to be fighting him is a lot different to killing Mephiston when you've prepared anti-MEQ/rhino list.
Would you really bring two units of Fire Dragons in serpents, a farseer and some guardians in a "normal" 750 game? What do you think would happen if your BA oponant instead had a DOA list? Suddenly you're fighting an army wide FNP/FC MEQ list.

That's like..a standard 750 list, give or take some dire avengers over guardians... Everyone takes a farseer, and everyone takes at *Least* one to two squads of FD's to deal with the tanks that can come at that level
..
If they used DOA they'd just slag them with AP1 meltaguns instead of meph. Which would deny FNP, along with the serpants zipping around, being immune to the 2D6 of the melta they use.

Mephiston is a horribly unbalanced character, but mainly based on the fact that some armies just can't do much of anything about him, and other armies walk all over him.

I was playing one game against a friend, he was Blood Angels, I was Orkz. My Orkz cut through his entire army with little issue, crushed him. But then Mephiston comes along, and there's literally nothing that I could have done to stop him.

On the other hand, same friend, same army, but I was running my guard. Mephiston jumps out again, and he dies in a single round of shooting to a single plasma vet squad who had nothing better to shoot at.

It's proof again that Mat Ward is utterly incapable of external balance. I personally dislike Mephiston because there's really no tactics involved in fighting him or fighting against him. Depending on your army, you either get crushed by him, or you crush him, there's no in-between. Remember back when we still had the old Necron Codex, and Mephiston countered the entire codex for free? There was literally nothing in that book that could even touch him.
Orks don't really have anything to throw against him except for Ghazzy, and Mephiston's almost always going to get the charge anyway, meaning you won't get to call your Waaagh! until at least the second round of combat, which means it's kind of a crapshoot.
Tyranids have to rely on poor psychic rolls and a much less mobile Swarm Lord to actually stand a chance of putting Mephy down.

Mephiston is a horribly unbalanced character, but mainly based on the fact that some armies just can't do much of anything about him, and other armies walk all over him.

There's only two armies with no commonly used counters, and that's orks (which more people play and complain about it seems) and black templar. That's pretty good actually.

Tyranids have to rely on poor psychic rolls and a much less mobile Swarm Lord to actually stand a chance of putting Mephy down.

Tyranids have lost their lashwhips? A Tyranid Hive Tyrant can put him down easily, SOTW to prevent his abilities, lash whip to prevent him from hitting first, paraoxysm which reduces him down to WS1, rerolls hits, power weapon with possible instant death..

At about -50 points from meph.

Right. And why are you bringing this up? I thought it had been clearly established that Eldar was the one army that can handle Meph with the least difficulty.

So, here's my challenge: please find a TAC Necron list that can bring down Meph, and still hope to win at the rest of the game. Keep in mind the ubiquitous 4+ cover save.

azazel the cat wrote:Right. And why are you bringing this up? I thought it had been clearly established that Eldar was the one army that can handle Meph with the least difficulty.

So, here's my challenge: please find a TAC Necron list that can bring down Meph, and still hope to win at the rest of the game. Keep in mind the ubiquitous 4+ cover save.

5 Wraiths, ignores cover, ignores terrain, 3++, 3/4 rending attacks at S6, whip coils which drop him down to I1

Done, can be taken in any standard list and most people seem to now, anything else?

Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

Well seeing as unless the lord was overloaded on items, it was still cheaper than taking down meph, it's kind of an interesting trade.

Of course bad dice screw us all when we least likely know it. That one is the enemy!

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

The Necron player would also have to somehow catch Mephiston, which as mentioned before, is pretty unlikly or the BA player would have no other targets left for Mephi to go after. I am not a Necron player myself, is there is a way for Wraiths and the lord to catch Mephi?

Falco wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

The Necron player would also have to somehow catch Mephiston, which as mentioned before, is pretty unlikly or the BA player would have no other targets left for Mephi to go after. I am not a Necron player myself, is there is a way for Wraiths and the lord to catch Mephi?

..They are jump infantry, that can go through any type of terrain.

They can also use tremor staves, to force dangerous terrain checks as meph moves.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

Well seeing as unless the lord was overloaded on items, it was still cheaper than taking down meph, it's kind of an interesting trade.

Of course bad dice screw us all when we least likely know it. That one is the enemy!

Keep in mind, Mephiston took down the wraiths 4 times over when they shouldn't have resurrected.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Falco wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

The Necron player would also have to somehow catch Mephiston, which as mentioned before, is pretty unlikly or the BA player would have no other targets left for Mephi to go after. I am not a Necron player myself, is there is a way for Wraiths and the lord to catch Mephi?

..They are jump infantry, that can go through any type of terrain.

They can also use tremor staves, to force dangerous terrain checks as meph moves.

Thanks. Yeah wriaths sound like a good counter.

azazel the cat wrote:Right. And why are you bringing this up? I thought it had been clearly established that Eldar was the one army that can handle Meph with the least difficulty.

So, here's my challenge: please find a TAC Necron list that can bring down Meph, and still hope to win at the rest of the game. Keep in mind the ubiquitous 4+ cover save.

I've faced Mepiston twice with my Necrons, and he was never really an issue. My lances either toasted him, or he got tied up by wraiths.

You're a fan of Deathmarks, why not drop a squad of those on him? They should take out reliably 2-3 wounds with a Abyssal staff. From there it's only a single sweep attack, or a few lances and he goes down.

One of the best things about Mephiston vs Necrons, is if he is charging a regular squad of troops, he is surely going to wipe them out, and leave him open for to be gunned down in your next turn.


This is at 2k points though, He would be a much bigger nightmare at lower point levels.

Fafnir wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Huh... I had someone try that two days ago against previously mentioned friend's Mephiston. 5 wraiths and a lord. Mephiston went through the lord 3 times, and killed the wraiths 4 times before he went down.

I know what you're thinking. The Necron player didn't know his own rules. But the initiative penalty and rending were definitely there.

Well seeing as unless the lord was overloaded on items, it was still cheaper than taking down meph, it's kind of an interesting trade.

Of course bad dice screw us all when we least likely know it. That one is the enemy!

Keep in mind, Mephiston took down the wraiths 4 times over when they shouldn't have resurrected.

Which is strange, because your lord alone would come with a power weapon at least (warscythe), and you get approximately 15 rending attacks (without charge), and all of that hitting first.

And he's hitting back with his force weapon against 3++ (well except the lord obviously) on T5 models.

And it's likely the lord had MSS too, 50% chance of giving meph to hit himself.

I'll put that down to the guy playing the Necrons.

Sasori wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Right. And why are you bringing this up? I thought it had been clearly established that Eldar was the one army that can handle Meph with the least difficulty.

So, here's my challenge: please find a TAC Necron list that can bring down Meph, and still hope to win at the rest of the game. Keep in mind the ubiquitous 4+ cover save.

I've faced Mepiston twice with my Necrons, and he was never really an issue. My lances either toasted him, or he got tied up by wraiths.

You're a fan of Deathmarks, why not drop a squad of those on him? They should take out reliably 2-3 wounds with a Abyssal staff. From there it's only a single sweep attack, or a few lances and he goes down.

One of the best things about Mephiston vs Necrons, is if he is charging a regular squad of troops, he is surely going to wipe them out, and leave him open for to be gunned down in your next turn.


This is at 2k points though, He would be a much bigger nightmare at lower point levels.

Oh yeah, when I see Meph on the board the first thing I do is send a unit of Deathmarks after him. Usually the Deathmarks & some Heavy Destroyers will bring down Meph ina turn, assuming I can catch him outside of cover. But as you said, that's at 2k.

Which is I believe where this all started, after someone made the comment that bringing Meph to a game under 2k points is kinda an asshat move.

EDIT: And also, some math-hammer!

6x Wraiths on the charge get 24 attacks
Wraiths at WS 4 against Meph's WS 7 means 12 hits
Wraiths' Str 6 against Meph's T6 means 5 normal wounds and 1 rending wound
Meph suffers 1.83 wounds.
Meph makes 4 attacks.
Meph at WS 7 against the Wraiths' WS 4 means 2.67 hits
Unleash Rage re-rolls hits, adding 0.89 hits, for a total of 3.56 hits
Sanguine Sword jacks up Meph's Str to 10 against the Wraiths' T4 means 2.97 wounds
Wraiths suffer 0.99 wounds, which IDs 1 base (therefore 2 wounds for combat resolution)

So what does this mean? It means, at best, a full unit of Wraiths, when they get the charge, will have a 50% chance to take down Mephiston. So I wouldn't call this a reliable method. I'll call it a reliable method when it's sucessful at least 2 out of 3. (although, that's not to say that Wraiths aren't excellent for many other reasons and should be taken anyways...)

Also: Mephiston doesn't have FNP without the help of a Libby. Up until now, I did not know that. I think I may need to punch my friend in the neck the next time I see him.

Without the help of a sanguinary priest.

I'm sorry, total noob, can someone explain what he does that makes him so good?

Squash wrote:I'm sorry, total noob, can someone explain what he does that makes him so good?

He kills things.

azazel the cat wrote:Meph makes 4 attacks...

Your Mathhammer is off, Meph has 5 attacks and 6 when he assaults into combat.

azazel the cat wrote:Right. And why are you bringing this up? I thought it had been clearly established that Eldar was the one army that can handle Meph with the least difficulty.

So, here's my challenge: please find a TAC Necron list that can bring down Meph, and still hope to win at the rest of the game. Keep in mind the ubiquitous 4+ cover save.

It's called an eldritch lance, look it up. The two major good Necron lists I can think of have them in spades. You don't have to kill him outright or anything (which is what you seem to be suggesting) but if they can take a few wounds off before the Wraiths get him then that helps a ton.

Fafnir wrote:Mephiston is a horribly unbalanced character, but mainly based on the fact that some armies just can't do much of anything about him, and other armies walk all over him.

I was playing one game against a friend, he was Blood Angels, I was Orkz. My Orkz cut through his entire army with little issue, crushed him. But then Mephiston comes along, and there's literally nothing that I could have done to stop him.

On the other hand, same friend, same army, but I was running my guard. Mephiston jumps out again, and he dies in a single round of shooting to a single plasma vet squad who had nothing better to shoot at.

It's proof again that Mat Ward is utterly incapable of external balance. I personally dislike Mephiston because there's really no tactics involved in fighting him or fighting against him. Depending on your army, you either get crushed by him, or you crush him, there's no in-between. Remember back when we still had the old Necron Codex, and Mephiston countered the entire codex for free? There was literally nothing in that book that could even touch him.
Orks don't really have anything to throw against him except for Ghazzy, and Mephiston's almost always going to get the charge anyway, meaning you won't get to call your Waaagh! until at least the second round of combat, which means it's kind of a crapshoot.
Tyranids have to rely on poor psychic rolls and a much less mobile Swarm Lord to actually stand a chance of putting Mephy down.

30 Boyz, Nob, power klaw. Job done. 'But how do I catch him he's soooo fast?' Play well. It's not like Mephiston is the only fast assault unit in the game - Wraiths, biker Nobs, Wyches, Beast packs, TWC are all bloody nippy as well and no-one cries on forums about how OP they are and how they can never be caught. Ultimately those units are effective only at facebeating range and if they want to get there then they need to come near your stuff.

e: Why would Meph getting the charge have anything to do with Ghaz calling the Waaagh! You can call his Waaagh at any point, including your opponent's turn.

Nids easily stomp Mephy. He can only hypnotise 1 enemy. Send in large Genesteer mob, supported by a small stealer brood,.both with Broodlord. Combined Aura of Despair with.Hypnotic Broodlord. Sure he may hood them but AoD helps.get the HG through.

Then.watch as he is ripped to shreds.

Why is everyone acting like Mephiston is alone in all this? If you swamp him with meleé units you'll get counter-charged by 11 FC FNP MEQs and ripped to shreds.
If you can shoot at Mephiston or 3/4 assault squads, it's all very well saying "DERP JUST SHOOT MEPHISTON" (since AP 2 weapons that ignore cover are ten a penny, obviously), but that means that you're not shooting at anything else. Feel the pain!

It's almost like part of the skill of the game is target priority and in that situation you have to choose which thing to target. Who'd've thunk it.

6 wounds, toughness 6 (or 7?), 4+ cover save and 2+ armour.
Considering 6 termies with only T4 would come to 300 points I'd say that's a bargain for a damage soaker, wouldn't you?

5 wounds, not 6.

Edit to add: HA! There's a popup window if you don't enter any capital letters in your post that reminds you to use proper spelling, punctuation and grammar. LET THE GRAMMAR INQUISITION COMMENCE!

At 1k or less he can be a bit OP. But anyone taking Mephy @500pts is just TFG.

4 lanceteks and 1 whipcoil wraith. 185 pts, super common to see these units or similar stuff like barges or heavy destroyers, normally in higher numbers, even in 500pt games. Meph gets shot twice for 4 wounds, then either loses his last wound to the wraith or kills it in 1 turn and gets shot again, this time without a cover save.
At 500 he is literally half your opponent's army and you can afford to focus all your junk on him, as the points increase you have more crap to deal with him and plenty left over for other threats. He is a monstrous creature, he is exactly a monstrous creature, he is costed the same and beaten the same. He is not a bad monstrous creature, he gets cover easy or you can hide him completely from sight behind a fast vehicle for a turn or 2 which is cool, but he's no more unstoppable than 2 wraithlords or something for the same cost which are clearly not overpowered.

Corrode wrote:It's almost like part of the skill of the game is target priority and in that situation you have to choose which thing to target. Who'd've thunk it.

Therein lies a great deal of Mephiston's OPness. With everything in the BA codex being either a Fast Vehicle or Jump Infantry, you don't have the opportunity to deal very many threats before it's too late. You're very lucky if you haven't been assaulted by turn 3, which gives you at best, 2 turns of shooting against army wide FnP, and characters like Mephiston. Even if you manage to kill him, which you probably wont, you have the entire rest of the BA army unscathed to deal with in CC....which basically means you lose. He's not just OP because he's a beast in CC. He's OP because allows his entire army to advance unmolested, OR, he gets into CC and wrecks unit after unit after unit after unit. And you can't shoot at him between assaults either but you have dozens of assault troops tying you down in CC.

bmoleski wrote:

Corrode wrote:It's almost like part of the skill of the game is target priority and in that situation you have to choose which thing to target. Who'd've thunk it.

Therein lies a great deal of Mephiston's OPness. With everything in the BA codex being either a Fast Vehicle or Jump Infantry, you don't have the opportunity to deal very many threats before it's too late. You're very lucky if you haven't been assaulted by turn 3, which gives you at best, 2 turns of shooting against army wide FnP, and characters like Mephiston. Even if you manage to kill him, which you probably wont, you have the entire rest of the BA army unscathed to deal with in CC....which basically means you lose. He's not just OP because he's a beast in CC. He's OP because allows his entire army to advance unmolested, OR, he gets into CC and wrecks unit after unit after unit after unit. And you can't shoot at him between assaults either but you have dozens of assault troops tying you down in CC.

You are saying that he is OP in small games, in small games there will be very little else in the BA army for you to have to deal with. 2 Assualt Squads in Rhinos at 500? 2 More in 1000? He can be dealt with easily with the correct strength an AP weapons at range from just a few squads, he may trip up on his own in Terrain or fail his Psychic test. How many armies can take anti-psyker powers or something that lowers Ld? He is easy to tarpit in combat and even if he isn't dead from shooting then any decent army would have wounded him a couple of times leaving him at half strength.

Deadshot wrote:Nids easily stomp Mephy. He can only hypnotise 1 enemy. Send in large Genesteer mob, supported by a small stealer brood,.both with Broodlord. Combined Aura of Despair with.Hypnotic Broodlord. Sure he may hood them but AoD helps.get the HG through.

Then.watch as he is ripped to shreds.

He can only Hypnotize an IC. Things like Broodlords, and Hive Tyrants are immune to that.

lso: Mephiston doesn't have FNP without the help of a Libby. Up until now, I did not know that. I think I may need to punch my friend in the neck the next time I see him.

That's pretty huge. If your friend didn't have any Sanguinary priests nearby, and saying that, he gave a huge buff to Mephiston.

Perhaps he'll be easier to take down next time for you, eh?

DeathReaper wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Meph makes 4 attacks...

Your Mathhammer is off, Meph has 5 attacks and 6 when he assaults into combat.

Right. I forgot that he gets an additional attack because he's got a second weapon. my bad.

Corrode wrote:It's called an eldritch lance, look it up. The two major good Necron lists I can think of have them in spades. You don't have to kill him outright or anything (which is what you seem to be suggesting) but if they can take a few wounds off before the Wraiths get him then that helps a ton.

Yeah, I run with 6 of 'em, smartass. And once the majority of the anti-tank has been used on Mephiston, I get to deal with fast tanks at my doorstep the next turn because my lanceteks were too busy dealing with 40k's most unbalanced character. I think I already stated that Mephiston can be brought down by firing everything at him, but that's not really a 'good' solution.

Actinium wrote:4 lanceteks and 1 whipcoil wraith. 185 pts, super common to see these units or similar stuff like barges or heavy destroyers, normally in higher numbers, even in 500pt games. Meph gets shot twice for 4 wounds, then either loses his last wound to the wraith or kills it in 1 turn and gets shot again, this time without a cover save.

I see 4 distinct problems with this idea:
1. The FOC chart. Nobody will use a unit of a single Wraith, as the FA slot it takes up is the most valuable real estate in the Necron codex.
2. Your understanding of the Necron codex. Nobody has ever taken a solitary Wraith for reasons already stated, and at 500 points the Necrons cannot afford large numbers of Heavy Destroyers
3. Your math-

4 Lanceteks shoot, hitting 2.67 times
Str 8 against T6 means 2.23 wounds with no armour save
Assuming a 4+ cover save gets you 1.13 wounds. Meph has 5 total wounds.

4. Your tactics. The Wraith will get killed in your own assault, and then on Meph's turn he is free to ruin your day.

I was just listing the least possible units, i said you generally see more than just 4 lances and 1 wraith and that wraiths and lances are common, the more of either you have the easier it gets on top of the myraid of other things that can work like barge sweeps or mind shackles or whatever.

Aye. I've found the best strategy is to send a unit of deathmarks after him, and hope they get swept, then finish Meph off with either Wraiths or Heavy Destroyers. It tends to work pretty well, but it's an enourmous amount of resources that must be dedicated to the removal of a single unit. In fact, it's because of Mephiston that I'm W-L-D 1-1-9 against a mech'd up BA list w/ Meph. The way things work is that the BA are simply a bad matchup for the Necrons; maybe even their worst matchup. Mephiston is just the avatar of that bad matchup.

So I guess it's maybe not fair to say that Mephiston is overpowered. Perhaps a better choice of words is that Mephiston is extremely imbalanced in 40k. Some armies can swat him like a fly or even come close to ignoring him, whereas some armies are powerless to deal with him. That being said, I would still consider taking Mephiston in a 'friendly' game under 2k points to be a dick move.

Overlord/lord with mind shackle scarabs and a warscythe will do wonders against him. You're lucky if you have both the lord and overlord in a group together equipped the same... he's bound to fail one of those mindshackle scarabs and thats a lot of warscythe pain coming his way.

azazel the cat wrote:Aye. I've found the best strategy is to send a unit of deathmarks after him, and hope they get swept, then finish Meph off with either Wraiths or Heavy Destroyers. It tends to work pretty well, but it's an enourmous amount of resources that must be dedicated to the removal of a single unit. In fact, it's because of Mephiston that I'm W-L-D 1-1-9 against a mech'd up BA list w/ Meph. The way things work is that the BA are simply a bad matchup for the Necrons; maybe even their worst matchup. Mephiston is just the avatar of that bad matchup.

So I guess it's maybe not fair to say that Mephiston is overpowered. Perhaps a better choice of words is that Mephiston is extremely imbalanced in 40k. Some armies can swat him like a fly or even come close to ignoring him, whereas some armies are powerless to deal with him. That being said, I would still consider taking Mephiston in a 'friendly' game under 2k points to be a dick move.

What's the list you are using? I really don't have trouble with BA all that much, so I'm a bit surprised to hear you are.

I think Nids are probably our worst match-up, surprisingly enough.

The only time I've faced Mephiston, my opponent made the rather stupid mistake of charging him alone in a unit of 10 Lychguard armed with Warscythes. He did last a whole round, I'll give him that.
Apart from that, when I first saw his statline and heard his abilities, I was like "what am I going to do with this guy?"

Sasori wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Aye. I've found the best strategy is to send a unit of deathmarks after him, and hope they get swept, then finish Meph off with either Wraiths or Heavy Destroyers. It tends to work pretty well, but it's an enourmous amount of resources that must be dedicated to the removal of a single unit. In fact, it's because of Mephiston that I'm W-L-D 1-1-9 against a mech'd up BA list w/ Meph. The way things work is that the BA are simply a bad matchup for the Necrons; maybe even their worst matchup. Mephiston is just the avatar of that bad matchup.

So I guess it's maybe not fair to say that Mephiston is overpowered. Perhaps a better choice of words is that Mephiston is extremely imbalanced in 40k. Some armies can swat him like a fly or even come close to ignoring him, whereas some armies are powerless to deal with him. That being said, I would still consider taking Mephiston in a 'friendly' game under 2k points to be a dick move.

What's the list you are using? I really don't have trouble with BA all that much, so I'm a bit surprised to hear you are.

I think Nids are probably our worst match-up, surprisingly enough.

I played against a deep striking list of tyranids and honestly felt like there was nothing I could do to stop it...

Blood angels do put up a decent fight , but as do most marine armies. Meph himself isnt too fearful with our eldritch lances wearing him down.

My list has been tweaked every couple of games, but lately I've been running something similar to this as my TAC list:

1 Harbinger of Despair
1 VoD
5 Deathmarks

1 Harbinger of Despair
1 VoD
5 Deathmarks

6 Wraiths
4 Whip Coils
1 Particle Caster

2 Destroyer
3 Heavy Destroyer

2 Destroyer
3 Heavy Destroyer

1 Overlord
1 Warscythe
1 Catacomb Command Barge

1 Overlord
1 Warscythe
1 Catacomb Command Barge

1 Harbinger of Destruction
1 Solar Pulse
1 Harbinger of Eternity
1 Chronometron
5 Immortals

1 Harbinger of Destruction
1 Solar Pulse
1 Harbinger of Eternity
1 Chronometron
6 Warriors

1 Monolith

It's pretty light on Troops, because I generally hate the Necron troops in the new codex (Warriors' -1 armour save and -1 RP for a 4 point reduction is a terrible loss, but I know there's no comparison without Phase Out). Anyway, I typically keep the Warrior unit to cover a backfield objective, will use the Immortal unit to go after any nearby objective, and use the Deathmarks to final-turn contest my opponent's objectives. It's a strategy that has generally worked very well for me. However, lately when I play against my BA friend, we keep rolling "Capture & Control", and just because of how our armies match up they almost always wind up as a draw, as his army is generally in shambles by the 4th turn, but will have been able to turtle on top of his own objective such that I can't even get with 3" to contest. (and if his army didn't have Mephiston in it, then he'd normally get tabled, because Mephiston generally requires a full turn of my own shooting.) I should also mention that the table always has too much CoD terrain on it, but I can't complain about that all the time.

Just to make sure I understand it right, you have Two Harbingers of Eternity in each of your Royal Court Squads?

Personally, I've started going very light on troops as well. I generally run 4x5 Warrior squads, with two lanceteks each. This lets me diversy fire, and they almost never get touched by anything.

Are you open to suggestions? We can talk in PMs if you'd like about it.

Mephiston's usually easy for a well-built army to deal with, but some rely on a few models to kill him. Tyranids lack AP2 shooting outside of Zoanthropes, which is a huge pain - Mephiston will generally tear my Tyranids apart. My only real chance to destroy him is with Lash Whip Tyrants/Guard/Swarmlord and/or the Doom. Genestealers can work as well, but he still strikes before them so they will probably get wiped out. All told, Mephiston is grossly over the top, with some glaring weaknesses that make him next to worthless as much more than a bullet-magnet or a one-use smart bomb against most armies out there. However, certain armies which have been given no low AP shooting are in for some serious trouble.

Sasori wrote:Just to make sure I understand it right, you have Two Harbingers of Eternity in each of your Royal Court Squads?

Personally, I've started going very light on troops as well. I generally run 4x5 Warrior squads, with two lanceteks each. This lets me diversy fire, and they almost never get touched by anything.

Are you open to suggestions? We can talk in PMs if you'd like about it.

No, I have 1x Eternity and 1x Destruction per unit. (the wargear is listed seperately underneath the Harbinger: see the Overlords for an example) I've found that combination to generally work better in a mech-heavy field than does 2x Lanceteks. (This way I get a second chance to hit, and if I hit the first time, a second chance to pen, and if I pen the first time a second chance to do some damage) And if they do somehow get into CC, the Eternity is way more useful than the Lancetek.

And I am always open to suggestions! Hit me with a PM. (this is only one of several working list-archetypes that I use)