So today I buy my Empire book, and I start reading through it. I'm excited to see if all the worry was for nothing. I flip the pages, and with each rule, with each statline, with each point cost, I get more and more impressed with GW and Robin Cruddace.
Because I didn't think writing a worse book was possible. Everything that is useful went up in cost or was nerfed into uselessness, or both. Some of the things that are useless (Griffons, Cavalry, etc) went down in price, but it doesn't matter because in 8th edition these things suck anyway! Unless the halved the cost they will be useless. All of our magic items were also nerfed. VHS went up in price and is no longer optional. Armor of MI doubled in price and only gained a 6+ ward save as a bonus. No Rod of Power, instead they thought the Ring of Volans was a better include. Also, someone thought that it would be a good idea to make Warrior priests worthless compared to their previous selves, so byebye free dispel dice. Now they channel normally. Someone else probably thought it was a good idea to make bound spells the theme of this book. Everywhere you look there is a bound spell. Too bad bound spells suck. No bonus from wizard level, so you are at a -4 disadvantage with all of your casting. This makes bound spells worthless as a focus of your army. The Wizard alters suck too. T5 with 5+ armor, ZERO combat ability, and the light version gets 6++ ward. These things will drop to magic, shooting, and fast cavalry flanking in a heartbeat.
Lastly, and what pisses me off most of all, is that there is VERY LITTLE SYNERGY. All over the Army book, Cruddace gives us false pretenses of possible synergy which is actually useless and not possible. The entire book is one huge tease. For example:
1) The detachment rule says it transfers over certain special rules to the detachments if the mother unit has that rule. Here it names a rule that WE DONT EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO! Frenzy.
2) The detachment rule does NOT confer bonuses from many of the things we DO have access to. Namely +1 to hit from the Celestial Hurricanum and re-rolls to wound, ward saves, and flaming attacks from Warrior priest prayes.
3) The Stank now is worthless because of the very high chance it will just go and kill itself or make itself worthless. However the Master Engineer option is sitting there and saying "hey, I let you re-roll artillery dice!" But only for warmachines. Not for chariots.
Look at the cover of your Army Book. See how that guy looks... a bit slow? That's because you didn't buy Warhammer Armies: Empire. You bought Warhammer Armies: Empire after 20 generations of inbreeding, dementia, and a down-syndrome epidemic.
MagicJuggler wrote:Reread the Battle Prayer rule. It specifically mentions detachments.
Hmm... thanks on that one. I don't know why it isn't mentioned with the other special rules.
One other thing, can you find any way we can get the Frenzy special rule on a regimental unit? They had to have put that rule in there for SOME reason.
IMO, it can work well in a friendly environment. But in a competitive environment, you see that the army relies on so many buffs to go off from magic and prayers and such all at the same time because they cant stand up to most enemy units. This means they need magic to live, and magic is too random to rely on constantly
Also check your sig, its cutting off for some reason
HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.
-Matt
That's cheating.
Don't you know that when a new book comes out, or new rule book, you have to play with the old army, in the old way and spout off about how everything is terrible.
And if you are a real hard core numpty, the ranting starts before the book has even been released.
HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.
Empire Knight Horde:
40 Knights - 880 Points
On charge, maximum potential 30 Attacks
WS 4
S 5
Ok, good
After charge, or if the enemy charged you 30 Attacks
WS 4
S 3
Nearly worthless
For 880 points, it has no breaking potential. Keep in mind you will not be getting all those attacks.
Don't you know that when a new book comes out, or new rule book, you have to play with the old army, in the old way and spout off about how everything is terrible.
And if you are a real hard core numpty, the ranting starts before the book has even been released.
That Warhammer 9th edition is a piece of CRAP!
But I agree with you with all my heart. Apparently "hardcore" is the new term for "unwilling to adapt."
I'm not sure where you get the idea that Warrior priests get a -4 to their rolls to cast their bound spells. Care to explain that?
Also, warrior priests seem to be just as good, if not better now despite losing automatic dispel dice and some powerful prayers. I mean, they used to be limited to one prayer. Now they're not. You can potentially use all the prayers in a single turn. AND they're all unitwide, so there's that. Rerolls to hit AND wound on a charge is nothing to scoff at, especially if you manage to get a +5 ward save for everyone on top of that.
And steamtank is awesome now. Despite losing a lot of toughness, it's going to be useful all the way to death now. No more will it become practically useless at 5 wounds, since no matter what happens, you can always get up to 3 steampoints without major disasters happening.
HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.
Empire Knight Horde:
40 Knights - 880 Points
On charge, maximum potential 30 Attacks
WS 4
S 5
Ok, good
After charge, or if the enemy charged you 30 Attacks
WS 4
S 3
Nearly worthless
For 880 points, it has no breaking potential. Keep in mind you will not be getting all those attacks.
Don't the horses get an attack in your games?
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Palmu wrote:I'm not sure where you get the idea that Warrior priests get a -4 to their rolls to cast their bound spells. Care to explain that?
Also, warrior priests seem to be just as good, if not better now despite losing automatic dispel dice and some powerful prayers. I mean, they used to be limited to one prayer. Now they're not. You can potentially use all the prayers in a single turn. AND they're all unitwide, so there's that. Rerolls to hit AND wound on a charge is nothing to scoff at, especially if you manage to get a +5 ward save for everyone on top of that.
And steamtank is awesome now. Despite losing a lot of toughness, it's going to be useful all the way to death now. No more will it become practically useless at 5 wounds, since no matter what happens, you can always get up to 3 steampoints without major disasters happening.
Flagellants make me sad, though
And the stank doesn't get instakilled by ini spells...
Palmu wrote:I'm not sure where you get the idea that Warrior priests get a -4 to their rolls to cast their bound spells. Care to explain that?
You don't get to add a wizard level to bound casts.
Just about everyone takes a Lvl 4 wizard, therefore +4 to dispel.
Therefore you are casting everything at a -4 disadvantage.
Palmu wrote:
Also, warrior priests seem to be just as good, if not better now despite losing automatic dispel dice and some powerful prayers. I mean, they used to be limited to one prayer. Now they're not. You can potentially use all the prayers in a single turn. AND they're all unitwide, so there's that. Rerolls to hit AND wound on a charge is nothing to scoff at, especially if you manage to get a +5 ward save for everyone on top of that.
Very true on the prayer bit, but it is difficult to get prayers off unless you spam Warrior Priests, and in that case its very expensive.
But they are NOT better than they were before. Free dispel dice are better than what they have now.
marielle wrote:
Don't the horses get an attack in your games?
Oh, sorry, 10 more WS3 S3 attacks. But that won't make enough of a difference in combat.
I'd like to point out that it's easy to wear dispellers down, because a roll of 1 or 2 is always a failure. A caster will always have more dice to roll than a dispeller, and those bound spells are fairly easy to get off with one dice. Sure, they'll be easy to dispel, but very risky if they do it with just one dice too. And if they use two dice, you just won by forcing him to use more energy than needed to counter a single bound spell. You'll have more where that came from.
And if they do dispel with just one dice, blam. Roll a 1 or 2, and you won't be dispelling gak with that wizard anymore that turn. Time to bring out the big guns.
Of course, I'm heavily opinionated and like taking far more risks than I should, nor do I really count in the times when you absolutely have to get that prayer off and roll bajillion dice to do it.
Well, I love the new Empire book....Helblasters FTW in my opinion. Plus warrior priests are 33% cheaper now. Also, the Heavens pimp-mobile is freaking awesome with an auto +1 to hit and a cool bound spell. I think the new Empire book is awesome and I will beatstick into the ground every army that disagrees with me.
HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.
A 660 point (minimum 30 knights, more like 880 like zeekill said) unit should have some decent combat ability.
However, it's nowhere near the combat ability of a similarly priced "deathstar" unit for most armies. A 14-man Chosenstar with 2 shrines is less than 700 points, and would eat the knights for breakfast.
Gotta be honest OP comes across kinda like a whiny little bitch. How about folk get some games in and see how they need to adapt in order to play the new book. Its seems most of the ranting is about the stank getting nerfed oh well if you rely on one unit in your army book to win you games then you are a terrible player anyways.
marielle wrote:
Don't the horses get an attack in your games?
Oh, sorry, 10 more WS3 S3 attacks. But that won't make enough of a difference in combat.
Really?
So in your artificially created world, how many casualties will the knights take?
It doesn't matter how many they take, they won't be able to dish out enough to break your average tarpit. Against a 5 wide unit, they get 18 attacks + horses. The moment those knights don't break a unit on the charge, they might as well be skavenslaves, just with 1+ saves.
The whole point of a deathstar is that it can kill everything and not die. That unit only does the second part.
Plus, some armies that unit just auto-loses against.
O&G - manglers + foot of gork, goblin tarpits, fanatics
Lizardmen - Dwellers + salamanders
Skaven - slave tarpits, tons of shooting that ignores Armor, HPAs
DoC - Bloodthrister wrecks that unit.
HawaiiMatt wrote:Dear empire hater, please take a look at the combat ability of a horde of empire knights.
And you're telling me they got cheaper?
Sweet.
A 660 point (minimum 30 knights, more like 880 like zeekill said) unit should have some decent combat ability.
However, it's nowhere near the combat ability of a similarly priced "deathstar" unit for most armies. A 14-man Chosenstar with 2 shrines is less than 700 points, and would eat the knights for breakfast.
Until the WoC get a new book.
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zeekill wrote:
marielle wrote:
zeekill wrote:
marielle wrote:
Don't the horses get an attack in your games?
Oh, sorry, 10 more WS3 S3 attacks. But that won't make enough of a difference in combat.
Really?
So in your artificially created world, how many casualties will the knights take?
It doesn't matter how many they take, they won't be able to dish out enough to break your average tarpit. Against a 5 wide unit, they get 18 attacks + horses. The moment those knights don't break a unit on the charge, they might as well be skavenslaves, just with 1+ saves.
The whole point of a deathstar is that it can kill everything and not die. That unit only does the second part.
Plus, some armies that unit just auto-loses against.
O&G - manglers + foot of gork, goblin tarpits, fanatics
Lizardmen - Dwellers + salamanders
Skaven - slave tarpits, tons of shooting that ignores Armor, HPAs
DoC - Bloodthrister wrecks that unit.
Jubear wrote: if you rely on one unit in your army book to win you games then you are a terrible player anyways.
No, that just means its a terrible game system, and why I don't play 40k anymore other than to whip out my GK army every 5 weeks to win a free battalion at a local tourney.
As for your whiny little bitch comment, I can call you names too, but that doesn't prove anything.
You say "oh, lets play games" but the fact of the matter is you CAN just break every book down to mathhammer and analyze. If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter. Go the the GW website and have your head in your a$$ as they whisper sweet things about the worst choices in your armybook and how they are some of the best ones. Then buy all those things that we already knew were terrible 3 months ago and "test them out" like you said. And THEN you realize you wasted 400 dollars on useless units.
Lastly, we are "ranting" about every troop getting nerfed, and all of our best magic items, and all our warmachines in addition to just the steamtank. If it was just a couple things, this thread would not exist.
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marielle wrote:Until the WoC get a new book.
But right now, they don't have a new book. They have their current book with its OP synergy.
zeekill wrote:You say "oh, lets play games" but the fact of the matter is you CAN just break every book down to mathhammer and analyze. If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter.
hunh. And here I thought Warhammer forums were for things other than just mathhammer...
zeekill wrote:You say "oh, lets play games" but the fact of the matter is you CAN just break every book down to mathhammer and analyze. If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter.
hunh. And here I thought Warhammer forums were for things other than just mathhammer...
Nonono I mean't its for mathhammer and analysis.
Some mathhammer, some analysis in other ways. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that
Does anyone else miss the days when people would test lists and new army books and THEN come to conclusions? I sure do. Y'know, that whole "adapt tactics" and "learn books" thing?
zeekill wrote:We have data. We have the armybook. We can see the overpriced troops.
Jumping to conclusions would be doing all this from rumors
And how many games have you played with em? And, just so I have the whole picture, how much Empire have you played up to this point, just so I know what perspective you have.
I've been playing empire since just before 8th edition started.
And people need to stop acting like its impossible to know whether or not something is overpowered when it first comes out. Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment Tyranids would suck.
Is it hard to do 2+2? No, its easy.
Is it not also easy to evaluate bad troops + high points costs?
zeekill wrote: Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment they would suck.
zeekill wrote: Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment they would suck.
zeekill wrote:I've been playing empire since just before 8th edition started.
And people need to stop acting like its impossible to know whether or not something is overpowered when it first comes out. Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment Tyranids would suck.
Is it hard to do 2+2? No, its easy.
Is it not also easy to evaluate bad troops + high points costs?
So how many points is a basic Empire troop? Haven't had a chance to see the new book yet so I want to get an angle on what you consider to be a "high points cost"
zeekill wrote:I've been playing empire since just before 8th edition started.
And people need to stop acting like its impossible to know whether or not something is overpowered when it first comes out. Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment Tyranids would suck.
Is it hard to do 2+2? No, its easy.
Is it not also easy to evaluate bad troops + high points costs?
So how many points is a basic Empire troop? Haven't had a chance to see the new book yet so I want to get an angle on what you consider to be a "high points cost"
Sadly we can't post points, if we were allowed to I would help but I can't sorry.
zeekill wrote:I've been playing empire since just before 8th edition started.
And people need to stop acting like its impossible to know whether or not something is overpowered when it first comes out. Day 1 I predicted GK being overpowered in 40k. After a week with only having seen (not played) 3 or 4 games, I predicted that in a tourney environment Tyranids would suck.
Is it hard to do 2+2? No, its easy.
Is it not also easy to evaluate bad troops + high points costs?
So how many points is a basic Empire troop? Haven't had a chance to see the new book yet so I want to get an angle on what you consider to be a "high points cost"
Sadly we can't post points, if we were allowed to I would help but I can't sorry.
Ah well. As long as it's less than seven (especially for halberdiers) then I'd consider it cheap but that's coming from an elf player.
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Ah well. As long as it's less than seven (especially for halberdiers) then I'd consider it cheap but that's coming from an elf player.
You have to keep in mind Statetroops are WS 3, Initiative 3, Ld 7, and only have light armor, they have to pay for a shield.
Plus they have no innate special rules like ASF or Hatred
A Town Called Malus wrote: Ah well. As long as it's less than seven (especially for halberdiers) then I'd consider it cheap but that's coming from an elf player.
You have to keep in mind Statetroops are WS 3, Initiative 3, Ld 7, and only have light armor, they have to pay for a shield.
Plus they have no innate special rules like ASF or Hatred
Well they'll hit on 4s against most non-hero troops and doesn't one of those crazy wizard chariot things give them a +1 to hit if they're close enough to it? That'll mean they're effectively hitting on 3s. They'll be hitting after Elves but as a basic Elf will need 4s to wound your state troops and then you get a 6+ armour save, that is not going to be a big game breaker. Your S4 will wound them on 3s with them also only having a 6+ armour save if they have light armour and shield, with no save if they only have light armour. With enough bodies you'll grind them down pretty easily, especially if you get off some buffs from your Priests. Chaos will be a different story of course but that's what Demigryph Knights are for.
Well, if we talk elves, you are getting an extra 2 ranks of attacks, you also attack first (matters once numbers start to get depleted) and you reroll hits. You will kill so many more halberdiers than they will kill of you.
Plus high elf magic is much more reliable and much more effective (assuming youre using life magic) if you want to argue prayers, then lets argue T7 elves.
If its dark elves, they plinkplinkplink you with their tons of double-shot S3 AP. its pretty much made to kill T3 6+ save troops
Jubear wrote: if you rely on one unit in your army book to win you games then you are a terrible player anyways.
No, that just means its a terrible game system, and why I don't play 40k anymore other than to whip out my GK army every 5 weeks to win a free battalion at a local tourney.
As for your whiny little bitch comment, I can call you names too, but that doesn't prove anything.
You say "oh, lets play games" but the fact of the matter is you CAN just break every book down to mathhammer and analyze. If you don't like that sort of thing, don't come on dakka or any other forum site for that matter. Go the the GW website and have your head in your a$$ as they whisper sweet things about the worst choices in your armybook and how they are some of the best ones. Then buy all those things that we already knew were terrible 3 months ago and "test them out" like you said. And THEN you realize you wasted 400 dollars on useless units.
Lastly, we are "ranting" about every troop getting nerfed, and all of our best magic items, and all our warmachines in addition to just the steamtank. If it was just a couple things, this thread would not exist.
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marielle wrote:Until the WoC get a new book.
But right now, they don't have a new book. They have their current book with its OP synergy.
Waiting for a problem to go away won't solve it.
Well you cant even mathhammer for gak your over simplified analysis of Empire knights proves this.
As for magic items every 8th edition book has had the amount of magic items reduced and those that are left tend to be more for "fun" then anything else and that suits me fine having armies that revolve around a few trinkets is bloody stupid.
As for warmachines all that has changed is you pay what they are really worth now (even the mortar) its almost like GW have a plan for all the 8th edition books and they are just bringing Empire in line with everyone else.
The core of the matter is that you simply dont like change, while its never fun to have to buy new models for an army but that is what happens when books get updated the better players will move with the changes while idiots like you just rant on forums about how terrible your new book is /violin
I support zeekil on this. Had a look through the book today and I will not be coming back to the Blue n Gold any time soon. I loved the Waralter and all its sillyness, and they ruined it. Though I do look forward to the easy wins this book will give me when I get matched against it in competitive play
I just got the Empire and VC books today. This thread made me read the Empire book pretty quickly. Well, look at the stats. I think there's a lot jumping to conclusions. If you're going to mathhammer, at least use math. But a few things.
-There is no master engineer (i.e., a 65pt Hero character) in a Steamtank. There is an engineer commander. So you're not going to get the heroe's rules regardless of the stank's type.
-You knew the stank was going to get a type as without one things float free from the BRB and other standarized rules and slowly get out of date. Rhinox cannons are charriots now. Mortis Engines are charriots. Everything is something, if they've released in 8th.
-Halberdiers are Orc Boyz with +1 str (from halberd) instead of T and +1 I, no choppaz, no Animosity. Same cost. That's a pretty solid deal. Oh, and they can have detachments.
-Greatswords are Black Orkz + and - here and there. But very comparable. And they can have detachments.
-Knightly Orders as core is pretty awesome. You can have your whole core have a native 1+ armor save and 6+ parry. That's pretty damn point denial. And a Priest or celestial can buff the ward.
-Demigryph knights are baby mournfangs. They are probably a tad overcosted, but not as much as it seems since they get the 1+ save for free and better LD (which matters since they will be solo) and WS.
-Mortar was going to get a point increase. Everyone knew that.
-The celestials aren't that great, but they are dirt cheap.
-Generic Generals are better.
-Witch Hunters are one of the scariest things I've seen in a while. Ranged sniper KB (against 1 "witch"). That makes Teclis cry so bad you can hear it all the way in Cathay. And they cost as much as goblin heroes. Every Empire army should have like 3 of these. With ability to take copious war machines and KB snipe heroes, they can basically take out any enemy leaders other than bunkered MI.
Mostly the point totals were tweaked slightly. The rules were tweaked slightly. They are tweaks than anyone who has seen 8th for a bit had to realize were coming. I'm a bit surprised they didn't ADD more. But I suppose, unlike some of the other armies, Empire always had a fair amount of unit choices, and they didn't want to take any away.
DukeRustfield wrote:
-Witch Hunters are one of the scariest things I've seen in a while. Ranged sniper KB (against 1 "witch"). That makes Teclis cry so bad you can hear it all the way in Cathay. And they cost as much as goblin heroes. Every Empire army should have like 3 of these. With ability to take copious war machines and KB snipe heroes, they can basically take out any enemy leaders other than bunkered MI.
I'm actually a bit surprised I don't see more WH talk (at least on these forums). He's a character hunter w/ 4's across the board and is dirt cheap (pre-options).
Jubear wrote:
Well you cant even mathhammer for gak your over simplified analysis of Empire knights proves this.
As for magic items every 8th edition book has had the amount of magic items reduced and those that are left tend to be more for "fun" then anything else and that suits me fine having armies that revolve around a few trinkets is bloody stupid.
As for warmachines all that has changed is you pay what they are really worth now (even the mortar) its almost like GW have a plan for all the 8th edition books and they are just bringing Empire in line with everyone else.
The core of the matter is that you simply dont like change, while its never fun to have to buy new models for an army but that is what happens when books get updated the better players will move with the changes while idiots like you just rant on forums about how terrible your new book is /violin
1) I'm not about to waste my time mathhammering a 880 point unit of knights that are just going to be stuck in a tarpit the entire game. Its obviously a bad unit I dont have to mathhammer to prove that.
2) Yes, every army has. But every army has gotten at least 1-2 items that are very good. What do we get? Overpriced 1+ Save, The same >50 points weapons that are useless in every book, an average helm, and average talisman, a nerfed VHS, a useless bound spell ring, a useless banner, and an average banner which is only useful on cavalry.
3) No, the mortar sucks now. S2 wont kill anything near 100 points without major help from Lore of Shadow. Yes the cannon needed the slight nerf, but they made the Rocket battery bad, and BS-oriented shooting is just as bad as ever.
4) No, I love change. I love neutral change, I love positive change. I'm ok with a bit of negative change if it is needed. But when just about every good choice in an Armybook gets nerfed hard I'm hesitant to jump on the wagon and waste my money on an army that is just going to lose. And you are wrong. When a new book comes out, first the community decides on its power. Then, if it is strong, the idiots have already left and the smart ones continue. If it is weak, the idiots stay and the smart players go and play other armies. That is by your definition of "idiots." You seem to be very quick to throw insults.
I believe the idiots in question are the ones who don't change their list to suit the new book (or because they cannot see the good for the rant). Not people who change the army book because they cannot play it.
DukeRustfield wrote:
-There is no master engineer (i.e., a 65pt Hero character) in a Steamtank. There is an engineer commander. So you're not going to get the heroe's rules regardless of the stank's type.
What I meant was it could have been possible to sit an engineer next to a Stank and get the bonus
DukeRustfield wrote:
-You knew the stank was going to get a type as without one things float free from the BRB and other standarized rules and slowly get out of date. Rhinox cannons are charriots now. Mortis Engines are charriots. Everything is something, if they've released in 8th.
Yes, but in the Engineer's rules they could have just added "... or the Steam Tank ..."
DukeRustfield wrote:
-Halberdiers are Orc Boyz with +1 str (from halberd) instead of T and +1 I, no choppaz, no Animosity. Same cost. That's a pretty solid deal. Oh, and they can have detachments.
1) So instead of S3 (4 on first turn) T4, you get S4 T3. Not bad, but not good.
2) Ask any competitive Orc player (me included) basic Orc Boyz are one of the worst core choices in the book, and are 1 point too expensive.
DukeRustfield wrote:
-Greatswords are Black Orkz + and - here and there. But very comparable. And they can have detachments.
Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book. Greatswords are T3 too, and are S5 with GW and 1 attack rather than S5 with 2 attacks or S7 with 1 attack (-1 for further combats)
DukeRustfield wrote:
-Knightly Orders as core is pretty awesome. You can have your whole core have a native 1+ armor save and 6+ parry. That's pretty damn point denial. And a Priest or celestial can buff the ward.
This is true, but Cavalry cannot parry, so no ward.
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.
DukeRustfield wrote:
-Demigryph knights are baby mournfangs. They are probably a tad overcosted, but not as much as it seems since they get the 1+ save for free and better LD (which matters since they will be solo) and WS.
Spot on.
DukeRustfield wrote:
-Mortar was going to get a point increase. Everyone knew that.
Yes. But it was also nerfed into S2 uselessness.
DukeRustfield wrote:
-The celestials aren't that great, but they are dirt cheap.
Are you talking about the Derpcanum? In that case I do agree its one of the better choices.
DukeRustfield wrote:
-Generic Generals are better.
Generals Suck. Look at captain. Look at general. Same statline for way more points. Not to mention said statline sucks.
DukeRustfield wrote:
-Witch Hunters are one of the scariest things I've seen in a while. Ranged sniper KB (against 1 "witch"). That makes Teclis cry so bad you can hear it all the way in Cathay. And they cost as much as goblin heroes. Every Empire army should have like 3 of these. With ability to take copious war machines and KB snipe heroes, they can basically take out any enemy leaders other than bunkered MI.
Can't say I agree.
Hitting on 3+
-Long Range (or moved)
-Sniper
Therefore hitting on 5+
Then you KB on a 6+
So for 50 points, you get 1 shot (because after that shot you will immediately be charged and killed) that has a 6% (or less) chance to kill an enemy with ward saves allowed. Explain to me why Teclis cares?
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SlaveToDorkness wrote:I believe the idiots in question are the ones who don't change their list to suit the new book (or because they cannot see the good for the rant). Not people who change the army book because they cannot play it.
I agree. I have no issue with changing my list. I just can't see any good competitve options in this book.
That's not a WH can do. They are still viable units. But basically, no LoS and KB means you HAVE to do something about them.
They are low risk high reward. Teclis doesn't have a ward. And you could buy 9(!) WH for the cost of one Teclis and be absolutely sure you'd kill him and the army that was built around him would be really sucky. Even with just 3, he's crapping his robes and it costs you almost nothing.
zeekill wrote:Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book.
...
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.
Everything you say/complain about is now void to me.
zeekill wrote:Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book.
...
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.
Everything you say/complain about is now void to me.
Black orcs are either taken or the savage orcs, and in some cases it usually depends on if the local meta has a very effective way of kiting out the savage orcs, which can make them worthless.
Black orcs are still a rather effective model within the codex proper though.
zeekill wrote:Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book.
...
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.
Everything you say/complain about is now void to me.
I don't see why. Cavalry has sucked, sucks, and will suck in 8th edition.
Black Orcs are ok, but for the points you pay they are very fragile. A 5+ save will be reduced to a 6+ or nothing more than half the time (against anything you would want Black Orcs fighting).
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Teclis isn't going to cast Dwellers 3-9 times before he's dead. He'll cast it once and it will be a horrendous use to cast a lvl 6 against a lone 50pt char. WH are heroes. They can be solo. Which is a good idea as it forces you to waste an ability on them and they can still LoS if close enough. Teclis hates WH I promise you.
Stanks are...tanks. If you're just using them as cannons they are a waste. So the idea of having this mobile mega tough armored cannon rumbling along with a master engineer jogging behind it shouting out boiler instructions is just too weird. No one's gonna take that job.
As for the orc comparisons, orcs are 8th. People are trying to balance to 7th edition and I know that is easy because there's stuff out there that's OP. But WoC will get a nerf. Trust me, in some way warriors will become crappier. Bloodletters likely as well. But if we always balanced to old armies, nothing would ever be able to be changed. Well, stuff would only be allowed to be buffed and around 10th edition everything would have straight 10 stats. You got to get back to baseline or the D6 isn't going to cut it.
zeekill wrote:Once again, Black Orcs are one of the worse choices in the book.
...
Also, keep in mind that we are still in 8th edition, so cavalry sucks.
Everything you say/complain about is now void to me.
I don't see why.
b/c you're an obvious over-reactor/elitist/drama king?
Just remember not to mistake "not as good in the past" and/or "not the best" for "sucks" and/or "bad".
They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat.
With the exception of the savage orcs, it'd be because you're comparing to an OVERPOWERED book
It'd be like comparing everything in 40k to gray knights and calling it gak as a result of it not being as good as purifiers or rifledreads.
Considering the OP's sentiment of "I don't play 40k anymore other than to whip out my GK army every 5 weeks to win a free battalion at a local tourney. " I think we know his style from here on.
DukeRustfield wrote:Teclis isn't going to cast Dwellers 3-9 times before he's dead. He'll cast it once and it will be a horrendous use to cast a lvl 6 against a lone 50pt char. WH are heroes. They can be solo. Which is a good idea as it forces you to waste an ability on them and they can still LoS if close enough. Teclis hates WH I promise you.
Ohhhh you are running them solo? Ok, pick them off one by one with shooting and Great eagles. That makes that job even easier, and opens up Teclis to cast on other units.
DukeRustfield wrote:Stanks are...tanks. If you're just using them as cannons they are a waste. So the idea of having this mobile mega tough armored cannon rumbling along with a master engineer jogging behind it shouting out boiler instructions is just too weird. No one's gonna take that job.
Again, misunderstanding. I was saying that I wish the reroll artillery dice applied to the roll for generating steam points. NEVER fire the cannon unless necessary, it will only break itself.
DukeRustfield wrote:As for the orc comparisons, orcs are 8th. People are trying to balance to 7th edition and I know that is easy because there's stuff out there that's OP. But WoC will get a nerf. Trust me, in some way warriors will become crappier. Bloodletters likely as well. But if we always balanced to old armies, nothing would ever be able to be changed. Well, stuff would only be allowed to be buffed and around 10th edition everything would have straight 10 stats. You got to get back to baseline or the D6 isn't going to cut it.
But they aren't. They are still there, and they are still just as powerful. Waiting for them to go away does not solve your problem.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
Just remember not to mistake "not as good in the past" and/or "not the best" for "sucks" and/or "bad".
If its not good, then its average. If its not average, then its bad. Empire troops, say halberdiers, have a 4 point stat line, with a 1 point weapon. Light armor on its own is worthless, or nearly worthless. They should be 5 points. Are they 5? nope.
IMO, these should be the points costs:
Halberdiers: 5
Spearmen: 4.5
Militia: 5
Swordsmen: 5.5 or 6
Greatswords: 10
Crossbowmen and Handgunners: 7
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curran12 wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat.
With the exception of the savage orcs, it'd be because you're comparing to an OVERPOWERED book
It'd be like comparing everything in 40k to gray knights and calling it gak as a result of it not being as good as purifiers or rifledreads.
Considering the OP's sentiment of "I don't play 40k anymore other than to whip out my GK army every 5 weeks to win a free battalion at a local tourney. " I think we know his style from here on.
What? My style of not liking a broken system? I said I don't play it for fun anymore because it's power curve completely one-sided. I have bought and built a GK army, considering its nearly impossible to lose with, might as well try to make my money back on it. If I could just sell it for 100% of my money back, I would.
Jubear wrote:Mr Crass I am horrified to see an alarming lack of Brody in your avatar picture as a fellow lover of trashy woman i urge you to fix this problem asap.
Fixxed.... That other lady was really fine... But not Brody fine
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Since nobody ever uses any of those.
If you WANT to compare, then fine.
No one takes Orc Boyz, at least not in a competitive environment because NG are better at tar pitting and SOBU are better at combat. But Orc Boyz are still better than state troops IMO. The T4 is invaluable.
VC core - stalemate. Empire core troops will never kill significantly more than VC can raise back, while the VC core will slowly whittle the Empire troops down. But VC troops cost less.
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Since nobody ever uses any of those.
If you WANT to compare, then fine.
No one takes Orc Boyz, at least not in a competitive environment because NG are better at tar pitting and SOBU are better at combat. But Orc Boyz are still better than state troops IMO. The T4 is invaluable.
VC core - stalemate. Empire core troops will never kill significantly more than VC can raise back, while the VC core will slowly whittle the Empire troops down. But VC troops cost less.
What?
There have been several tournaments where pure orc armies have been taken to a competitive environment and won tournaments. Though they are less worthful than the night goblins I will admit, but orcs can be used as a better damager role than goblins can.
This isn't 40k where a crappy army is completely worthless so long as a tactician is better at playing it. Otherwise Wood elves wouldn't be worth taking compared to anything at all.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:There have been several tournaments where pure orc armies have been taken to a competitive environment and won tournaments. Though they are less worthful than the night goblins I will admit, but orcs can be used as a better damager role than goblins can.
This isn't 40k where a crappy army is completely worthless so long as a tactician is better at playing it. Otherwise Wood elves wouldn't be worth taking compared to anything at all.
Still not as efficient as Savages or Night Goblins, depending on whether you are going for damage or tarpit.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:There have been several tournaments where pure orc armies have been taken to a competitive environment and won tournaments. Though they are less worthful than the night goblins I will admit, but orcs can be used as a better damager role than goblins can.
This isn't 40k where a crappy army is completely worthless so long as a tactician is better at playing it. Otherwise Wood elves wouldn't be worth taking compared to anything at all.
Still not as efficient as Savages or Night Goblins, depending on whether you are going for damage or tarpit.
Savages are excellent damage dealers. However the local meta around here has a large number of misdirection units within their armies, thus causing issues should your frenzied mobs be forced to not only charge, but pursuit a large distance away, which can not only leave them vulnerable, but take them out of the action for a number of turns depending on how badly it has done. Having watched a Brettonia player pull the trick with yeomen on a large number of frenzied mobs (Minotaurs in particular). I myself prefer something more stable within the black orcs, not to mention the varied amount of armies within this meta means I usually need something that can be more flexible when it comes to a match.
As for NG vs boyz, I prefer my anvil being able to do some damage back in return which is a more personal choice, but I do not deny that Night goblins are the far better tarpit, well so long as they never roll one's for those nets. Otherwise they become a fair bit worse.
zeekill wrote:Why should Empire have access to anything?
Right now, the new empire book seems to be leaning towards a detachment-oriented combat line: big blocks of dudes.
Big blocks of dudes tend to get outmaneuvered if they dont have redirectors available. Ask WoC players.
Everything now is "large block of dudes" your empire is not much different than skavens ( well ok stronger and less luck oriented )
but you get your demigriffin to outmaneuver the units that outmaneuver you. You shoot them to death.
Or you get the fancy magitech thingies to blast them to death with magic.
tl;dr buy all the shinny new stuff and you'll be set.
zeekill wrote:Ok, sorry, my bad. I was quick to speak. I sincerely apologize.
But if you dont want to analyze and/or mathammer, I suggest not posting on threads where this sort of discussion is going on.
I don't see any discusssion, certainly not on your part. I see a great deal of evasion and rhetoric.
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curran12 wrote:Does anyone else miss the days when people would test lists and new army books and THEN come to conclusions? I sure do. Y'know, that whole "adapt tactics" and "learn books" thing?
I'm sick of blowhards.
Ah yes but this is the interent age, the age of 24 hour rolling news, we need an instant reaction....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zeekill wrote:We have data. We have the armybook. We can see the overpriced troops.
Jumping to conclusions would be doing all this from rumors
zeekill wrote:So today I buy my Empire book, and I start reading through it. I'm excited to see if all the worry was for nothing. I flip the pages, and with each rule, with each statline, with each point cost, I get more and more impressed with GW and Robin Cruddace.
Because I didn't think writing a worse book was possible. Everything that is useful went up in cost or was nerfed into uselessness, or both. Some of the things that are useless (Griffons, Cavalry, etc) went down in price, but it doesn't matter because in 8th edition these things suck anyway! Unless the halved the cost they will be useless. All of our magic items were also nerfed. VHS went up in price and is no longer optional. Armor of MI doubled in price and only gained a 6+ ward save as a bonus. No Rod of Power, instead they thought the Ring of Volans was a better include. Also, someone thought that it would be a good idea to make Warrior priests worthless compared to their previous selves, so byebye free dispel dice. Now they channel normally. Someone else probably thought it was a good idea to make bound spells the theme of this book. Everywhere you look there is a bound spell. Too bad bound spells suck. No bonus from wizard level, so you are at a -4 disadvantage with all of your casting. This makes bound spells worthless as a focus of your army. The Wizard alters suck too. T5 with 5+ armor, ZERO combat ability, and the light version gets 6++ ward. These things will drop to magic, shooting, and fast cavalry flanking in a heartbeat.
Lastly, and what pisses me off most of all, is that there is VERY LITTLE SYNERGY. All over the Army book, Cruddace gives us false pretenses of possible synergy which is actually useless and not possible. The entire book is one huge tease. For example:
1) The detachment rule says it transfers over certain special rules to the detachments if the mother unit has that rule. Here it names a rule that WE DONT EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO! Frenzy.
2) The detachment rule does NOT confer bonuses from many of the things we DO have access to. Namely +1 to hit from the Celestial Hurricanum and re-rolls to wound, ward saves, and flaming attacks from Warrior priest prayes.
3) The Stank now is worthless because of the very high chance it will just go and kill itself or make itself worthless. However the Master Engineer option is sitting there and saying "hey, I let you re-roll artillery dice!" But only for warmachines. Not for chariots.
Look at the cover of your Army Book. See how that guy looks... a bit slow? That's because you didn't buy Warhammer Armies: Empire. You bought Warhammer Armies: Empire after 20 generations of inbreeding, dementia, and a down-syndrome epidemic.
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Since nobody ever uses any of those.
VC players don't use Zombies or Ghouls? How... how are they winning?
Empire have cheap redirection troops. 5 man knight units with a musician. Not even 121 points.
As for hordes of knights. Empire is not a deathstar army. If we were taking a horde of knights (no more than 30) then they would have great weapons for the sustained strength 5 (or 6 if you made them inner circle).
Automatic dispel dice? It was quite easy with those dice and the rod of power for Empire to shut down an enemy's magic phase, or do a pretty devastating following magic phase. That ability had to go, just as it will go for dwarfs when their turn comes.
Crossbows and handguns are overpriced, mainly because without special rules BS based shooting is pretty dire (unless you're an Elf or have +1 to hit).
However the increase in price of halberds and swords is the result of Empire being a little too good with their ability to horde in the interim between the end of 7th and the 8th edition update.
Warrior priests are cheap. My Arch Lector has dropped in price too. The only use I see for Generals are flying Griffons into the enemy, and I won't be using them in my blocks.
Greatswords may be more expensive, but I doubt I'll ever take the field without at least 30. With the standard of discipline and bunkering my Lector and battle standard that leadership 10 bubble will be invaluable.
Reikguard knights are stubborn. With their 1+ saves you can throw a small unit into a strength 3 or 4 enemy block and have a fairly good chance that that block won't play any further part in the battle for at least a couple of turns.
I'm not going to say that the Empire book is faultless, the double nerf on mortars probably wasn't needed, the flagellants should probably have been raised only by 1 point not 2, and despite the new detachment rules I'll still probably never field detachments but there's enough variety to keep me entertained for a while.
Comparing an 8th edition book to a 7th edition book like WoC, when that book will be updated and prices increased across the board eventually, is just complaining for the sake of it. If the 8th edition WoC come out and their units are still the same price then feel free to complain, but not before.
Empire are roughly on a par with Orcs and Tomb Kings, slightly behind Vampire Counts and significantly below Ogres (but what isn't in 8th?).
zeekill wrote:
People keep using bad or average units for comparisons. They should be comparing things to GW Marauders, Savage Orc BigUns, Warriors of Chaos, etc as good comparisons for combat. Not basic Orc Boyz and VC core choices.
Since nobody ever uses any of those.
VC players don't use Zombies or Ghouls? How... how are they winning?
Let's face it some stuff needed nerfing: mortars were over the top, halberdiers were too cheap, free dispel dice for priests led to a priest spam that made games boring, and being able to give a character armour of meteoric iron, the speculum and a 4+ ward save was just over the top. It's early days, but I can't yet see a clear cookie cutter list or any must have units, and that suggests a balanced book.
What I would criticise however is that some units are over-nerfed. Mortars didn't need to have the strength reduced and have such a large points cost. The new points costs for swordsmen is baffling - they just aren't cost effective.
Pistoleers are much too expensive. Bare unit of 5 is nearly 100 points
Redirectors should be units of small, fast moving units with a generally small footprint that can dart in and sacrifice itself in order to allow a flank charge. Should be no more than 60-ish points, the best ones they are in the range of 20-50.
Alternatively they can also do a flee reaction, but this often results in either being too close (and subsequently run down) or the opponent redirects his charge into one of your other units.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Empire have cheap redirection troops. 5 man knight units with a musician. Not even 121 points.
That's very expensive...
Cheap is in 20-50 point ranges
Average is in the 50-70 ranges
121 points is pretty bad.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:As for hordes of knights. Empire is not a deathstar army. If we were taking a horde of knights (no more than 30) then they would have great weapons for the sustained strength 5 (or 6 if you made them inner circle).
Perhaps, but the unit probably still won't kill enough for 660 points, and only be more susceptible to all the things I mentioned to counter the knights before. Plus at 30 you lose attacks immediately when you start to take casualties.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Automatic dispel dice? It was quite easy with those dice and the rod of power for Empire to shut down an enemy's magic phase, or do a pretty devastating following magic phase. That ability had to go, just as it will go for dwarfs when their turn comes.
Yes, but they took away both. now we can't even supply our own magic phase.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Crossbows and handguns are overpriced, mainly because without special rules BS based shooting is pretty dire (unless you're an Elf or have +1 to hit).
Yep. They sucked for 8 points last edition and now they suck even more.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:However the increase in price of halberds and swords is the result of Empire being a little too good with their ability to horde in the interim between the end of 7th and the 8th edition update.
I don't agree that was worth a whole point increase however. Halberds don't put out much damage, nor can they tank any damage. Numbers is all they had going for them.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Warrior priests are cheap. My Arch Lector has dropped in price too. The only use I see for Generals are flying Griffons into the enemy, and I won't be using them in my blocks.
A captain in each parent unit for ''hold the line!'' bonuses I see as potentially useful.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Greatswords may be more expensive, but I doubt I'll ever take the field without at least 30. With the standard of discipline and bunkering my Lector and battle standard that leadership 10 bubble will be invaluable.
I would rather have the 18" Ld 9 from the WarAlter, but now that it is more points I'm not so sure anymore....
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Reikguard knights are stubborn. With their 1+ saves you can throw a small unit into a strength 3 or 4 enemy block and have a fairly good chance that that block won't play any further part in the battle for at least a couple of turns.
For that price tag they better hold it up for more than a few.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:I'm not going to say that the Empire book is faultless, the double nerf on mortars probably wasn't needed, the flagellants should probably have been raised only by 1 point not 2, and despite the new detachment rules I'll still probably never field detachments but there's enough variety to keep me entertained for a while.
I personally think that with their new rules, flagellants should have gone down a point.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Comparing an 8th edition book to a 7th edition book like WoC, when that book will be updated and prices increased across the board eventually, is just complaining for the sake of it. If the 8th edition WoC come out and their units are still the same price then feel free to complain, but not before.
But right now they are not nerfed yet. So it doesn't matter. Either way it will take them months and months to get around to that considering GW's turtle-speed release schedule.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Empire are roughly on a par with Orcs and Tomb Kings, slightly behind Vampire Counts and significantly below Ogres (but what isn't in 8th?).
Your power curve seems to be a bit off. But that is ok considering the power curve in these books is more of a circle.
Orcs>TK,VC Orcs = Ogres
Ogres>TK
VC > TK, Ogres
TK
Its all hard counters. There really isn't any clear cut winner.
Hoard Of Hordes wrote:Let's face it some stuff needed nerfing: mortars were over the top, halberdiers were too cheap, free dispel dice for priests led to a priest spam that made games boring, and being able to give a character armour of meteoric iron, the speculum and a 4+ ward save was just over the top. It's early days, but I can't yet see a clear cookie cutter list or any must have units, and that suggests a balanced book.
1) Mortars - but not deserving of being nerfed into uselessness. Either make it 100-110 points, or S2. But not both
2) Halberdiers were not too cheap. If they were, then maybe a half-point too cheap. But not a full point. But Militia, Xbowmen, Handgunners, Greatswords, Flagellants, Swordsmen? Heck no. Some of them were even too expensive.
3) Yes, preist spam happened, but you payed the points. They could have even upped it by 10-20 points and I would not have minded. Plus, you are confusing "boring" with "powerful"
4) That is not nearly as OTT as Dark Elf Unkillable Dreadlords or WoC 3++ overpoweredness.
5) When you can't see cookie-cutter, you have balance. But when you can't see anything in the book that comes off as particularly powerful or undercosted, you might have an underpowered book.
Hoard Of Hordes wrote:What I would criticise however is that some units are over-nerfed. Mortars didn't need to have the strength reduced and have such a large points cost. The new points costs for swordsmen is baffling - they just aren't cost effective.
I didn't even think Swordsmen were worth it in the previous book.
Pistoleers are much too expensive. Bare unit of 5 is nearly 100 points
Redirectors should be units of small, fast moving units with a generally small footprint that can dart in and sacrifice itself in order to allow a flank charge. Should be no more than 60-ish points, the best ones they are in the range of 20-50.
Alternatively they can also do a flee reaction, but this often results in either being too close (and subsequently run down) or the opponent redirects his charge into one of your other units.
Yeah, and 2 salamanders are 150 pts, and I don't see any lizardmen players complaining.
2 Salamanders fire 2 Breath Templates that ignore most armour and cause panic tests, and they are powerful enough to fight other skirmish-type units in combat and win.
Pistoleers will be lucky to kill more than 3 models in a game.
Spirit hosts and zombie redirectors. Hold them up all game while you clean their shop. Maybe toss a curse of years on them for good measure. Trick with Savages is NOT to fight them
Johnny-Crass wrote:Spirit hosts and zombie redirectors. Hold them up all game while you clean their shop. Maybe toss a curse of years on them for good measure. Trick with Savages is NOT to fight them
Hmm... well they go through 2 a turn, so it will be pretty difficult to keep them out of combat for 3+ turns.
But its not clear cut either way IMO.
zeekill wrote:2 Salamanders fire 2 Breath Templates that ignore most armour and cause panic tests, and they are powerful enough to fight other skirmish-type units in combat and win.
Pistoleers will be lucky to kill more than 3 models in a game.
That isn't even a valid comparison
Aren't pistoleer the guys with the 3x multiple shots?
zeekill wrote:2 Salamanders fire 2 Breath Templates that ignore most armour and cause panic tests, and they are powerful enough to fight other skirmish-type units in combat and win.
Pistoleers will be lucky to kill more than 3 models in a game.
That isn't even a valid comparison
Aren't pistoleer the guys with the 3x multiple shots?
They get 2 shots each because of brace of pistols, with a pitiful BS 3, usually after moving, and sometimes at long range.
At short range, thats already hitting on 6+.
Pitiful.
You are thinking of outrders, who cost more and can't move and shoot
zeekill wrote:2 Salamanders fire 2 Breath Templates that ignore most armour and cause panic tests, and they are powerful enough to fight other skirmish-type units in combat and win.
Pistoleers will be lucky to kill more than 3 models in a game.
That isn't even a valid comparison
Aren't pistoleer the guys with the 3x multiple shots?
They get 2 shots each because of brace of pistols, with a pitiful BS 3, usually after moving, and sometimes at long range.
At short range, thats already hitting on 6+.
Pitiful.
You are thinking of outrders, who cost more and can't move and shoot
For 100 points, having a fast unit that can move and fire with armor piercing weapons doesn't sound that bad.
Unless you place them in the enemy's front all the time. But then again, why would you do that with a short ranged skirmishing unit?
You will nearly always have to move before shooting, meaning you hit on a 5+ with 5 shots for 100 points.
If you multishot, then you hit on a 6+ with 10 shots.
Pitiful
Pistols are quick to fire, so they don't suffer the -1 to hit for moving and shooting. They'll still get -1 if they're shooting at long range but as they're most likely going to be shooting into a units flank they can get into short range without having to worry about being charged next turn as the unit would have to reform to face them and that means they can't charge, giving you the opportunity to move back round to their flank or to run away. Plus as they're fast cavalry you'll be able to make a vanguard move, then march and then fire. You can be in range of an enemy unit on turn one.
I don't see why you would ever fire single shots. At long range it comes out as: (5*(2/6)*(1/2))=0.833 wounds against T4 10*(1/6)*(1/2)=0.833 wounds against T4
At short range it's 5*(1/2)*(1/2)=1.25 wounds against T4 10*(1/3)*(1/2)=1.66 wounds against T4
So the average number of wounds is the same at long range but the total potential number of wounds from multiple shots is double that of single shots. At short range the average number of wounds is in favour of multiple shots as well as the total potential wounds.
So multiple shots is pretty much always the best option.
Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.
There is no way that is worth 100 points...
Did you account -2 to saves? Against WoC with shields, that would mean that they have to make 6+ saves. Well, that is assuming that they have heavy armor base. I'm not too sure about their load out.
Ok, against Saurus, they would have to take 6+ saves. 10 dead saurus is 100pts right there.
Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.
There is no way that is worth 100 points...
Look at it this way, if you got these guys onto the flank of a unit of say, Black Guard, they're going to kill around 2 every round (more if you manage to roll above average), not allowing armour saves.
The Black Guard can't counter this enemy. If they turn to face them then you just move the unit out of their front arc and shoot them again. This means that the player either has to decide to ignore you, leaving you free to continue shooting his expensive Black Guard and reducing the number of extras he has to soak up close combat casualties or to move another unit over to counter your fast cavalry, in which case you can just march away having pulled one of your opponents units into what is now a useless position.
Their worth is not in the amount of damage they cause but on their psychological impact on your opponent. Having a unit blowing small chunks out of an expensive unit with immunity could make the opposing general make a bad move in an attempt to preserve that unit.
Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.
There is no way that is worth 100 points...
Look at it this way, if you got these guys onto the flank of a unit of say, Black Guard, they're going to kill around 2 every round (more if you manage to roll above average), not allowing armour saves.
The Black Guard can't counter this enemy. If they turn to face them then you just move the unit out of their front arc and shoot them again. This means that the player either has to decide to ignore you, leaving you free to continue shooting his expensive Black Guard and reducing the number of extras he has to soak up close combat casualties or to move another unit over to counter your fast cavalry, in which case you can just march away having pulled one of your opponents units into what is now a useless position.
Their worth is not in the amount of damage they cause but on their psychological impact on your opponent. Having a unit blowing small chunks out of an expensive unit with immunity could make the opposing general make a bad move in an attempt to preserve that unit.
Exactly. Having a constant thorn in his side will force your opponent to direct some resources against the pistoleers. Resources that could have been directed against more important targets.
Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.
There is no way that is worth 100 points...
Did you account -2 to saves? Against WoC with shields, that would mean that they have to make 6+ saves.
Well, that is assuming that they have heavy armor base. I'm not too sure about their load out.
Ok, against Saurus, they would have to take 6+ saves. 10 dead saurus is 100pts right there.
Warriors of Chaos have Chaos Armour, which is a 4+ save. Most of the time they also have shields so that's a 3+ save total. They get even nastier when you add in Mark of Tzeench which gives them a 5+ ward save on top of that.
Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.
There is no way that is worth 100 points...
Did you account -2 to saves? Against WoC with shields, that would mean that they have to make 6+ saves. Well, that is assuming that they have heavy armor base. I'm not too sure about their load out.
Ok, against Saurus, they would have to take 6+ saves. 10 dead saurus is 100pts right there.
Warriors of Chaos have Chaos Armour, which is a 4+ save. Most of the time they also have shields so that's a 3+ save total. They get even nastier when you add in Mark of Tzeench which gives them a 5+ ward save on top of that.
So...5+ saves against pistols then. Aren't they like 15pts a model though? So 8-10 dead Chaos Warriors is still pretty good for a 100pt unit.
Still, MAXIMUM possible amount of shooting (6 turns, discounting Stand and shoot) you cause 9.96 wounds against T4 before saves.
There is no way that is worth 100 points...
Look at it this way, if you got these guys onto the flank of a unit of say, Black Guard, they're going to kill around 2 every round (more if you manage to roll above average), not allowing armour saves.
The Black Guard can't counter this enemy. If they turn to face them then you just move the unit out of their front arc and shoot them again. This means that the player either has to decide to ignore you, leaving you free to continue shooting his expensive Black Guard and reducing the number of extras he has to soak up close combat casualties or to move another unit over to counter your fast cavalry, in which case you can just march away having pulled one of your opponents units into what is now a useless position.
Their worth is not in the amount of damage they cause but on their psychological impact on your opponent. Having a unit blowing small chunks out of an expensive unit with immunity could make the opposing general make a bad move in an attempt to preserve that unit.
Exactly. Having a constant thorn in his side will force your opponent to direct some resources against the pistoleers. Resources that could have been directed against more important targets.
Careful you are getting dangerously close to talking about tactics - or indeed how the game is actually played - it has already been established that the dialectic of the discussion is purely based on theoretical 'damage dealing', with a liberal dose of changing the subject with thin canards when the dialectic is proven incorrect.
Because as we all know, everyone just lines up their armies and runs at each other...
It isn't solely down to points destroyed, you know that right, zee?
It's a real shortsighted way to play the game. If your 100 point unit causes 50 points worth of damage, but diverts cannon shots, spells, and melee units of higher value, that's a net gain. It just can't be mathhammered.
curran12 wrote:It isn't solely down to points destroyed, you know that right, zee?
It's a real shortsighted way to play the game. If your 100 point unit causes 50 points worth of damage, but diverts cannon shots, spells, and melee units of higher value, that's a net gain. It just can't be mathhammered.
Indeed, there is still some value to blocking marches and going after warmachines, yes? The ability to shoot everything along the way seems like a goal that can be accomplished at the same time.
ph34r wrote:Indeed, there is still some value to blocking marches and going after warmachines, yes? The ability to shoot everything along the way seems like a goal that can be accomplished at the same time.
I understand the idea of points-killed vs. points-invested that zee is doing, but it is such an incomplete picture of the whole thing. I get his thinking, I really do, but it just doesn't pan out when you start playing games against human players.
The value of a threat, or more specifically, a PERCEIVED threat, goes well beyond points cost. I play games with my Dark Elves that, by all the mathhammer standards and tournament metagame, shouldn't work (dragon, loads of Dark Riders, one level 2 sorceress for magic, etc) and I get best General with it because I understand the psychology of the game. 5 units of Vanguarding Dark Riders makes shooty/casty armies panic 9 times out of 10. And that 10th time, I can throw them into the teeth of the gunline to tie them up while my other units move up into fighting position.
Would you have considered Empire to be overpowered in 7th?
Because if everything was soooooo goooood then surely to expect it to be put down to regular balanced level should have been expected.
If you don't consider 7th empire that then never mind entirely.
And if the minimum unit size for halberds is still 10 then you have a 60 point (Assuming they are 6 points, haven't seen new book yet) re-director. Even better if detachements still allow smaller than min unit size so you could have a 5man unit for 30points and have more units to put the enemy at weird angles.
I'm skeptical. I'm hearing all these bad things about my beloved empire, but on the filpside I get to try new things and get the challenge of finding a new way to make it work well.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Ok, against Saurus, they would have to take 6+ saves. 10 dead saurus is 100pts right there.
This is assuming you got to shoot every turn including first turn, and that the unit never took casualties, which they will take from skink shooting and such.
A Town Called Malus wrote:Look at it this way, if you got these guys onto the flank of a unit of say, Black Guard, they're going to kill around 2 every round (more if you manage to roll above average), not allowing armour saves.
The Black Guard can't counter this enemy. If they turn to face them then you just move the unit out of their front arc and shoot them again. This means that the player either has to decide to ignore you, leaving you free to continue shooting his expensive Black Guard and reducing the number of extras he has to soak up close combat casualties or to move another unit over to counter your fast cavalry, in which case you can just march away having pulled one of your opponents units into what is now a useless position.
Their worth is not in the amount of damage they cause but on their psychological impact on your opponent. Having a unit blowing small chunks out of an expensive unit with immunity could make the opposing general make a bad move in an attempt to preserve that unit.
Or, the Dark Elves can just take one turn of shooting with 6 shades and/or 2 units of Dark Riders, perhaps instead a basic magic missile, and obtain 100 points for free.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So...5+ saves against pistols then. Aren't they like 15pts a model though? So 8-10 dead Chaos Warriors is still pretty good for a 100pt unit.
With shields and MoT they are ~17 depending on the size of your unit, and will get 5+/6++ against your shooting. So yes, in the end against WoC it is worth it, but only if you can actually get to an advantageous angle. WoC armies will usually have a marauder horde on one flank and the table edge on the other, or if not the table edge then 2 warshrines angled outwards specifically to prevent the pistoliers from getting in the flank.
So in the end you will have to spend at least half the game trying to move around to start shooting. Plus you can be whittled down by bloodcurdling roar on a disk, again depending on positioning.
curran12 wrote:It isn't solely down to points destroyed, you know that right, zee?
It's a real shortsighted way to play the game. If your 100 point unit causes 50 points worth of damage, but diverts cannon shots, spells, and melee units of higher value, that's a net gain. It just can't be mathhammered.
Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?
Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?
That's exactly my point. It's shooting and magic that ISN'T going towards other elements of your army that can lead into larger gains.
And you bet people will shoot war machines at fast harassment units. You point them towards that crew and they're going to react. If they don't, you charge them. Going in with horses and the charge, you'll either clobber the crew (who you have better saves and far more swings even with the limited rules to engaging war machines) or lock them up. Small unit is now either destroying the war machine and earning points, or protecting your army from it completely.
Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?
That's exactly my point. It's shooting and magic that ISN'T going towards other elements of your army that can lead into larger gains.
And you bet people will shoot war machines at fast harassment units. You point them towards that crew and they're going to react. If they don't, you charge them. Going in with horses and the charge, you'll either clobber the crew (who you have better saves and far more swings even with the limited rules to engaging war machines) or lock them up. Small unit is now either destroying the war machine and earning points, or protecting your army from it completely.
Big picture thinking, zee. Big picture.
He can't think of the big picture. He is too butt hurt.
Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?
That's exactly my point. It's shooting and magic that ISN'T going towards other elements of your army that can lead into larger gains.
And you bet people will shoot war machines at fast harassment units. You point them towards that crew and they're going to react. If they don't, you charge them. Going in with horses and the charge, you'll either clobber the crew (who you have better saves and far more swings even with the limited rules to engaging war machines) or lock them up. Small unit is now either destroying the war machine and earning points, or protecting your army from it completely.
Big picture thinking, zee. Big picture.
Well...
Hellcannon Immune to Pistoliers
Dwarf artillery ~150 points in epic stalemate with 100 point pistoliers after already shooting 1-2 times, plus dwarfs often take single characters (like a single slayer) to protect their warmachines
Empire v Empire, no comment on mirror matches
Skaven, fair enough, but getting around the hordes upon hordes may take several turns, plus the HPA will easily pick off pistoliers if they come anywhere close.
Hellcannon Immune to Pistoliers
Dwarf artillery ~150 points in epic stalemate with 100 point pistoliers after already shooting 1-2 times, plus dwarfs often take single characters (like a single slayer) to protect their warmachines
Empire v Empire, no comment on mirror matches
Skaven, fair enough, but getting around the hordes upon hordes may take several turns, plus the HPA will easily pick off pistoliers if they come anywhere close.
Hellcannon I can't argue, but the Hellcannon is a lot more than a standard war machine since it CAN hold its own in melee.
Dwarves, okay, so you've shot a few times and now have a 150 point warmachine locked up and are diverting a character to deal with the threat? Seems like a win to me. Care to show me where it isn't?
Empire is the same, if better situation that Dwarves.
Skaven, you don't know how quick fast cav can motor around the board. 16" moves with free reforms means there's very, very few places you CAN'T get to in a hurry. And if a Skaven player is throwing an HPA at your fast cav that's pretty awesome since it is chasing after a distraction unit.
Well, if my 100 point unit does 50 points of damage and then dies to a little bit of shooting or magic (considering 5 T3 models with 5+ save is not hard to kill) then your opponent has obtained 100 points while you have zero until you finish off whatever unit you have been shooting at, which is not a guarantee.
And do the people you play against actually fire cannons at pistoliers?
That's exactly my point. It's shooting and magic that ISN'T going towards other elements of your army that can lead into larger gains.
And you bet people will shoot war machines at fast harassment units. You point them towards that crew and they're going to react. If they don't, you charge them. Going in with horses and the charge, you'll either clobber the crew (who you have better saves and far more swings even with the limited rules to engaging war machines) or lock them up. Small unit is now either destroying the war machine and earning points, or protecting your army from it completely.
Big picture thinking, zee. Big picture.
He can't think of the big picture. He is too butt hurt.
Hahaha made me giggle. New empire are fine, just have to tailor the army lists to suit the new book rather than the old one. Which may be to do with GW wanting us to buy the new mini's but so what? Makes a nice change from buying more bloody halberdiers..
curran12 wrote:
Dwarves, okay, so you've shot a few times and now have a 150 point warmachine locked up and are diverting a character to deal with the threat? Seems like a win to me. Care to show me where it isn't?
No, that's a 50 point single model that will try to charge you before you charge the warmachines. if you hit the warmachines, so what? They already shot twice with their lazer-guided assistnace and thats 150 points to 100 points. A pretty good deal for dwarfs.
curran12 wrote:
Empire is the same, if better situation that Dwarves.
Because the new empire sucks, but I think you already understand my point on that.
curran12 wrote:
And if a Skaven player is throwing an HPA at your fast cav that's pretty awesome since it is chasing after a distraction unit.
A HPA that grabs a free 100 points on its way to rip open your units' faces and probably at the same time saves the life of two or more weapon teams? Fair deal.
When it comes down to it, pistoliers could hunt warmachines. But most other armies have similar units that do the same for <=60 points.
Hellcannon Immune to Pistoliers
Dwarf artillery ~150 points in epic stalemate with 100 point pistoliers after already shooting 1-2 times, plus dwarfs often take single characters (like a single slayer) to protect their warmachines
Empire v Empire, no comment on mirror matches
Skaven, fair enough, but getting around the hordes upon hordes may take several turns, plus the HPA will easily pick off pistoliers if they come anywhere close.
Hellcannon I can't argue, but the Hellcannon is a lot more than a standard war machine since it CAN hold its own in melee.
Dwarves, okay, so you've shot a few times and now have a 150 point warmachine locked up and are diverting a character to deal with the threat? Seems like a win to me. Care to show me where it isn't?
Empire is the same, if better situation that Dwarves.
Skaven, you don't know how quick fast cav can motor around the board. 16" moves with free reforms means there's very, very few places you CAN'T get to in a hurry. And if a Skaven player is throwing an HPA at your fast cav that's pretty awesome since it is chasing after a distraction unit.
Weird how this goes from pistoliers are useless because they don't make their ponts back to they are useless because they can't beat stuff that is twice their points.
Dwarf shooting ~2 times means about 50-200 points of stuff killed. Then they sit in stalemate with a 100 point unit of pistoliers. Seems like a good deal to me.
If the enemy army does not have artillery, then the pistoliers either die to normal shooting or magic, giving away 100 points, or they struggle to make back their points.
Someone else mentioned marchblocking sorry but I forget who, but in the age of BSB rerolls, rarely will a Ld test for marchblocking be failed.
OP, you know that many of the things you use as evidence as to why this particular 8th edition unit is crap or why that particular 8th edition thing is useless happen to mostly be things made for 7th (or earlier) edition and as a consequence are highly likely to be removed completely, heavily nerfed or altered in such ways as to make your arguments now baseless. Why complain about how cheap the WoC Marauders are or how so much better Dwarven anti magic is, when it is almost garunteed that these things will not be the same when the army gets it's 8th edition update. Think about it, some armies that are still using 7th (or earlier) edition books have benefitted immensly from significant parts of 8th edition rules (like the removal of force organisation chart, focus being on blocks of troops not to mention the spells).
Most of the 8th edition complaints remind me of all the times I heard "But if my characters suck.....what will I kill my opponents entire army with?" cries that happened to be commonplace in my area when 5th edition was phased out for 6th edition fantasy.
Remember why complain about rough matchups that will be short term problems, when there are other matchups that aren't quite as bad but that you'll have to deal with for years longer.
NoTP wrote:OP, you know that many of the things you use as evidence as to why this particular 8th edition unit is crap or why that particular 8th edition thing is useless happen to mostly be things made for 7th (or earlier) edition and as a consequence are highly likely to be removed completely, heavily nerfed or altered in such ways as to make your arguments now baseless. Why complain about how cheap the WoC Marauders are or how so much better Dwarven anti magic is, when it is almost garunteed that these things will not be the same when the army gets it's 8th edition update.
In, say, an online game I would not care, and would not be arguing this. Because online games update everything every 2-4 weeks.
GW however, updates ONE book every FEW months. It will be forever before some of the most OP stuff is fixed, so I'm going to compare stuff to it.
If GW cared, they would make all their books into PDF downloads and do monthly FAQs and revisions.
zeekill wrote:If GW cared, they would make all their books into PDF downloads and do monthly FAQs and revisions.
If they cared and wanted to not make money and rush out products that'll be subpar, they'd do that.
Look, we all just better let zee be in his own world of thinking everything in the game sucks unless they're the best. Clearly nothing in Empire is the best, so clearly Empire sucks and deserves to die and all the army books should be burned.
zeekill wrote:If GW cared, they would make all their books into PDF downloads and do monthly FAQs and revisions.
If they cared and wanted to not make money and rush out products that'll be subpar, they'd do that.
Look, we all just better let zee be in his own world of thinking everything in the game sucks unless they're the best. Clearly nothing in Empire is the best, so clearly Empire sucks and deserves to die and all the army books should be burned.
Ay, it's moaning about everything that keeps him so cheerful...
zeekill wrote:If GW cared, they would make all their books into PDF downloads and do monthly FAQs and revisions.
If they cared and wanted to not make money and rush out products that'll be subpar, they'd do that.
Look, we all just better let zee be in his own world of thinking everything in the game sucks unless they're the best. Clearly nothing in Empire is the best, so clearly Empire sucks and deserves to die and all the army books should be burned.
Its not because its not the best, its because its not even good for the cost.
Halberdiers should be 5.5 points
Militia should be 5 points.
Swordsmen 5.5
Greatswords should be 10.
Xbowmen/Handgunners should be 7.
Mortars should be S3, or down to 75 points with S2
Flaggelants should be 10 at most, maybe even 9
marielle wrote:And as zeekill disappears up their own fundament the rest of the world is just happy to play games of Warhammer with the new book.
I know this is a warhammer forum where most people love GW, yet that doesn't mean " everyone get to break #1 forum rule because OP doesnt like something GW created "
there are so many posts in this thread alone that would warrant temporary ban if they were reported.
LunaHound wrote:
I know this is a warhammer forum where most people love GW, yet that doesn't mean " everyone get to break #1 forum rule because OP doesnt like something GW created "
there are so many posts in this thread alone that would warrant temporary ban if they were reported.
Honestly I have to agree here. I make a thread just to point out that the new book sucks and everyone starts cussing and calling me names.
zeekill wrote:Honestly I have to agree here. I make a thread just to point out that the new book sucks and everyone starts cussing and calling me names.
The new book only sucks if you plan on using what you already owned.
Its not just for Empire, its this way for every.single.GW release.
marielle wrote:And as zeekill disappears up their own fundament the rest of the world is just happy to play games of Warhammer with the new book.
Go ahead. Play with your bad book, lose with your bad book. My initial point was that it is a bad Armybook and that's the end of that.
I can put money on there not being many Empire GT winners anytime soon
The point you are missing is twofold.
Firstly this is mid cycle in the release of 8th ed books, so in order to judge if you are correct we will have another 18 months or two years to see if you are correct.
And secondly the key to 8th ed books is the hard choices that players have to make in the special choices. The fact is that the books are designed in order that players can't have everything.
As for Empire GT winners, I don't see the old book winning to many tournaments as it is.
Let us not forget that when the ogre book was released last September a lot of competative players dismissed that book as being not much better than the old book, and yet 8 months later there are plenty of people who claim the book is overpowered. Yet all that really changed - leaving aside the ironblaster and the mournfang cavalry - was that the pointless limitations were lifted and Ogre players were allowed a level 4 in games of less than 3000 points.
You are quite happy to throw random units around to wander off topic and prove your point by smoke and mirrors, but I look at the book and see demigriffons that are the equal of mournfangs - ok they lack impact hits - I see the luminark of hysh as a cheap ironblaster, wizards with access to a wide range of magic etc. You can't get around the morale issues of the army, but the new book does at least allow chharacers to mitigate them.
The point people are trying to get you to understand is that until you have experimented with the possibilities on offer in the new book, it simply is not possible to make the blanket sweeping statements that you are prone to.
Less than 48 hours after release and so much argument already. Fantasy cannot be played out via math hammer, the games are way to complex and way to unpredictable to say a army book will or will not win games. I played my first game of Brettonia and I loved it, and It's pretty competitive in my opinion (but ask the internet and they will boo it away). No book in fantasy is under powered, if you develop tactics and combos, any army is good. The problem with fantasy though is the over powered books, and GW has fixed the armies that are broken first. Empire had the ability to shut down magic phases with their number of dispel dice, had a tank that was un-killable to low strength armies, had the best artillery, and had cheap troops that had detachments of hand guns. Dwarfs are next because of their outdated anti-magic, and I'm hoping that Demons get the reboot (I swear every unit is 25% to cheap) before books like Brettonia or WE.
Please play with the book before going on the internet and trash talking a book, to many people come onto these forums and listen to misinformed people who think they know how to calculate statistics. It hurts the community when people only play the "good" army books that the internet told them.
marielle wrote:
demigriffons that are the equal of mournfangs - ok they lack impact hits
They lack D3 impact hits
They lack T4
They lack 1 attack on the mounts
They lack 2 attacks on the riders
They lack the Dragonhide banner
They lack the cheapest redirectors in the game (sabretusks) as positional support
They gain WS 4, AP, and +1 AS.
marielle wrote:I see the luminark of hysh as a cheap ironblaster,
That requires magic to go off, can easily be dispelled, has a worse profile than a cannon in every way, and...
No T6
No 4+ Save
No Rhinox or Ogre to give it good combat ability, instead we get 4 WS3 S3 attacks
marielle wrote:wizards with access to a wide range of magic etc.
Fine, but it all condenses to the same 2-4 best lores that everyone takes on their Lvl 4 (unless they have access to a specific book lore). Shadow, Life, Light, Death
Automatically Appended Next Post:
marielle wrote:
Firstly this is mid cycle in the release of 8th ed books, so in order to judge if you are correct we will have another 18 months or two years to see if you are correct.
Well as of now this book is worse then all the rest with the exception of maybe TK.
They lack D3 impact hits
They lack T4
They lack 1 attack on the mounts
They lack 2 attacks on the riders
They lack the Dragonhide banner
They lack the cheapest redirectors in the game (sabretusks) as positional support
They gain WS 4, AP, and +1 AS.
I would say the Steel Standard has excellent value. And the knights have WS 4 and lances, and better Ld (can be a problem if the cav race away from the General and BSB) and the mounts have excellent Initiative (for the purple suns and pits of shades which absolutely destroy Monstrous Cav.) The Demigryphs are also about 20% cheaper.
"Nothing is underpowered" - So naive. You clearly don't play in a competitive environment. If everyone builds optimized lists, its very difficult to find what is good or bad. In a competitive environment, just TRY to win on a regular basis with Wood Elves or Brettonia.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zoned wrote:
I would say the Steel Standard has excellent value. And the knights have WS 4 and lances, and better Ld (can be a problem if the cav race away from the General and BSB) and the mounts have excellent Initiative (for the purple suns and pits of shades which absolutely destroy Monstrous Cav.) The Demigryphs are also about 20% cheaper.
How do you figure 20%?
Plus have you seen the dragonhide banner? Its infinitely better than the Steel Standard. Mournfangs already have the M8 that the Steel Standard gives.
Also Lances only affect the first round, and only affect 4 attacks. I would rather have 12 S4 attacks in every round than 4 S6 in the first round. Plus D3 Impact hits is easily twice as good as lances. Plus the mounts get an extra S5 attack in every round.
Purple Sun and Pit of Shades are the bane of most Monstrous cav.
Dragon hide banner is good (though it is more expensive.) You claim was "they lack the Dragonhide banner" which I took as they "they lack a good banner," to which I disagree.
Last time I checked, Mournfang with heavy armour and iron fists were about 70pts. And Demigryphs are under 60pts. 10 out of 60 is already 16%, if you used the actual numbers you get 20.6%.
So one could say that, sure, equal number of Mournfang have more punch than Demipryphs, except they should, since they cost more. Point for point and the results are much closer. With their WS of 3, Mournfang do surprisingly bad after the first round.
WS 4 also means you take less hits. And there are plenty of units that are WS 3.
Compared to the Steel Standard, you really only get the reroll 1's for charge distance benefit for its cost. I don't see that as worth it.
Yes they should be getting more hitting power, but the question is how much:
Demigryphs x4 - charging
4x S6
12x S5 AP 4x S5 autohits
Mournfangs x4 - charging
4D3 S5 Autohits - Reroll 1's to wound
12x S4 - Reroll 1's to hit and wound
16x S5 - Reroll 1's to hit and wound
4x S5 Autohits - Reroll 1's to wound
I would dare say that is at least double the damage output.
Whereas 4 Demigryphs with musician (the only command I would actually take) are about 240pts.
Let's compare to a unit of, say Saurus Warriors with shield. It's hard to calculate the re-roll 1 thing so how about I just say all your wounds round up.
4 Mournfang with banner and Dragon Hide:
8 impact hits get 5 (4.4) kills.
12 Ogre attacks get 2 (1.6) kills.
16 Mournfang attacks get 4 (3.7) kills.
4 Stomps get 3 (2.2) kills.
7 Str 3 Breath weapon attacks get 2 (1.16) kills
Adds to 16 (13.06) kills
4 Demigryphs
4 Knight attacks get 1.85 kills.
12 Demigryph attacks get 4.4 kills.
4 Stomps get 2.6 kills.
Adds to 8.85 kills.
The demigryphs are 71% the cost of the Mournfang. They deal 55.3% of the damage. So not horribly off.
If we drop the Dragonhide banner and only take a musician on the Mournfang, the demigryphs cost 83.4% but deal 74.3% of the damage, again not horribly off.
So in terms of punching power, I'd say the Mournfang are definitely ahead, but when you consider the 1+ armour, Initiative, and Leadership, I'd say the Demigryphs have other redeeming factors.
After the charge (lack of impact hits and re-roll 1s) I'm sure the kills even out quite heavily (not unreasonable since most units will be steadfast after either charge.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just for fun, here's the mathhammer vs something crappy like Skaven clanrats.
4 Mournfang with banner and Dragon Hide:
8 impact hits get 7 (6.6) kills.
12 Ogre attacks get 3 (2.7) kills.
16 Mournfang attacks get 6 (5.5) kills.
4 Stomps get 4 (3.3) kills.
7 Str 3 Breath attacks get 3 (2.3) kills
Adds to 23 (20.4) kills
4 Demigryphs
4 Knight attacks get 1.85 kills.
12 Demigryph attacks get 5.5 kills.
4 Stomps get 3.3 kills.
Adds to 10.65 kills.
The demigryphs are 71% the cost of the Mournfang. They deal less than half the damage.
If we drop the Dragonhide banner and only take a musician on the Mournfang, the demigryphs cost 83.4% but deal 58.8% of the damage.
Looks pretty bad for the Demigryphs. Again, considering their cost compared to the Mournfang, it's not horrible.
After the charge, the odds look like this (assume no damage from the clanrats to either unit):
12 Ogre attacks get 2.7 kills.
16 Mournfang attacks get 5.5 kills.
4 Stomps get 3.3 kills.
Adds to 11.5 kills
4 Demigryphs
4 Knight attacks get 1.23 kills.
12 Demigryph attacks get 5.5 kills.
4 Stomps get 3.3 kills.
Adds to 10.03 kills.
The demigryphs are 71% the cost of the Mournfang. They deal 87.2 the damage (better point for point!)
If we drop the Dragonhide banner and only take a musician on the Mournfang, the demigryphs cost 83.4% but still deal 87.2% of the damage. Again, better point for point!
Edited a few times as I forgot that the Dragonhide banner is also a Breath Weapon and that the re-roll 1s are only on the charge.
Zoned wrote:
If we drop the Dragonhide banner and only take a musician on the Mournfang, the demigryphs cost 83.4% but still deal 87.2% of the damage. Again, better point for point!
So you mean play the unit wrong? Yah I bet if we use a Chosen Star as a redirecting unit with marauder calv flank charges then it would not be effective....
Uh, it's fair to say that many Ogre players will take multiple blocks of Mournfang. They can't all take the Dragonhide banners so it's worth considering a unit without it.
Also, in your percentages did you include the Steel Standard?
Lastly, keep in mind the Dragonhide banner is also a S3 breath weapon, so if needed that can also be used for 2D6 hits with the rerolls to wound.
I'm not sure how to factor in the re-rolling 1s thing so I'll have to take your word on it.
Even with it, the total kills only jumps up by 1 (and if you check my math I did take into account the Str 3 Breath attack.)
No, I didn't include the Steel Standard (as I stated) since it's more important to take it on regular knights (who really need the charge compared to Demigryphs.)
Johnny-Crass wrote:Never seen more than one unit of MF in a competitive game ever.... Not enough room
Are you kidding me?
Assume 2500pts of Ogres.
Bare minimum looks like this:
Rare
2 Ironblasters
Special
3 units of 4 Mournfang with Musicians
3 Sabertusks
Core
625 points
Total = 1835. 500-600pts for Characters puts you to 2398pts-2498pts. Tweak your points here and there and you can probably fit in a Thundertusk for the ASL (maybe drop 1 unit of Mournfang.)
That list..is just horrible, really now as an OK player that just relies to much on something that can be murdered messily by one good spell. Or a bunch of artillery.
That list..is just horrible, really now as an OK player that just relies to much on something that can be murdered messily by one good spell. Or a bunch of artillery.
You formatted your quote incorrectly. Please fix it Just get rid of the "quote=zeekill" I think that should do it.
marielle wrote:
demigriffons that are the equal of mournfangs - ok they lack impact hits
They lack D3 impact hits
They lack T4
They lack 1 attack on the mounts
They lack 2 attacks on the riders
They lack the Dragonhide banner
They lack the cheapest redirectors in the game (sabretusks) as positional support
They gain WS 4, AP, and +1 AS.
Sabretusks are deployment drops and panic bombs, the redirection abilities is a bonus, and even more of a bonus is if you can rally the leadership 4 sabretusk after they have fled to draw the enemy out of position.
It's odd how your fanatically negative opinion conflicts with that I have read from GT winners, ETC players and top tier competative players. Who feel that Demigriffins are the perfect foil to Mournfangs.
A Town Called Malus wrote:Warriors of Chaos have Chaos Armour, which is a 4+ save. Most of the time they also have shields so that's a 3+ save total. They get even nastier when you add in Mark of Tzeench which gives them a 5+ ward save on top of that.
Just 6++, you don't get a parry save against shooting.
We of the Wood Elf and Beastmen community are so sorry to hear about what happened to your army with the new book. We are so sorry about the appropriate readjustment ..er.. I mean "nerf" to your already ridiculous access to warmachines. We are so sorry to learn that you not only gained Monstrous Cavalry that have a 1+ armor save but also gained another excellent cavalry unit that's Stubborn to further add amazing synergy with the new units. We are so sorry to learn that your ridiculously low priced core units were raised to appropriate levels and that your generals now provide the Lizardman "Cold-blooded" to their unit for break tests.
We are sorry to learn that your Steamtank is no longer auto-slain by spells like Purple Sun or Pit of Shades. We are also so sorry to learn that your new rare selections have provided you with mobile artillary and augment options that make any close combat army break into a cold sweat. We are so sorry you lost your ability to gain 2 -6 dispel dice or so automatically in a magic phase by virtue of spamming warrior priests. We are also sorry that your detachments gain the benefits/special rules of their parent unit.
We are so sorry that your army became even more balanced and versatile than ever. We are so sorry that you have to rely on intelligence and skill rather than bombarding your opponent from your deployment zone with almost as much artillery as Dwarfs get and gunlines. We are so sorry you gained access to not only dragons but also griffons and pegasi! So sorry that you have now gained so much versatility that you can handle any army! We are so sorry that you can take characters that exist solely to assassinate other characters for cheap. We are also sorry that your new rare selections are just as cheap as your other warmachines yet provided amazing benefits to the army.
It has to really suck to be an empire player right now and have a balanced army....
Love,
The Wood Elf and Beastmen community."
And there are plenty of other armies that echo the sentiment...
Personally I'd have to say that the empire are fine, they are balanced to the other 8th ed books, which is what they're meant to be. when the other 7th ed armies come round I just hope the pattern holds.
I get the feeling that the new release system is as much selecting armies that need reigning in for update as it is updating old books. (which leads me to believe dark elves, daemons and WoC will be updated soon, sorry wood elves and brets. )
We of the Wood Elf and Beastmen community are so sorry to hear about what happened to your army with the new book. We are so sorry about the appropriate readjustment ..er.. I mean "nerf" to your already ridiculous access to warmachines. We are so sorry to learn that you not only gained Monstrous Cavalry that have a 1+ armor save but also gained another excellent cavalry unit that's Stubborn to further add amazing synergy with the new units. We are so sorry to learn that your ridiculously low priced core units were raised to appropriate levels and that your generals now provide the Lizardman "Cold-blooded" to their unit for break tests.
We are sorry to learn that your Steamtank is no longer auto-slain by spells like Purple Sun or Pit of Shades. We are also so sorry to learn that your new rare selections have provided you with mobile artillary and augment options that make any close combat army break into a cold sweat. We are so sorry you lost your ability to gain 2 -6 dispel dice or so automatically in a magic phase by virtue of spamming warrior priests. We are also sorry that your detachments gain the benefits/special rules of their parent unit.
We are so sorry that your army became even more balanced and versatile than ever. We are so sorry that you have to rely on intelligence and skill rather than bombarding your opponent from your deployment zone with almost as much artillery as Dwarfs get and gunlines. We are so sorry you gained access to not only dragons but also griffons and pegasi! So sorry that you have now gained so much versatility that you can handle any army! We are so sorry that you can take characters that exist solely to assassinate other characters for cheap. We are also sorry that your new rare selections are just as cheap as your other warmachines yet provided amazing benefits to the army.
It has to really suck to be an empire player right now and have a balanced army....
Love,
The Wood Elf and Beastmen community."
And there are plenty of other armies that echo the sentiment...
This is brilliant Excellent Find
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sirius42 wrote:Personally I'd have to say that the empire are fine, they are balanced to the other 8th ed books, which is what they're meant to be. when the other 7th ed armies come round I just hope the pattern holds.
I get the feeling that the new release system is as much selecting armies that need reigning in for update as it is updating old books. (which leads me to believe dark elves, daemons and WoC will be updated soon, sorry wood elves and brets. )
Haven't DE already been updated? I think it was relatively recent.
TK *are* bad. They're the worst of the new books, prior to Empire. (Cant make a call yet on if they're better or worse than Empire).
They're better than they WERE, they're still a weak army.
Depending ENTIRELY on buff stacking is bad army book design, because it will not happen against an even half way competent player who understands what your buffs are and do.
Furycat wrote:TK *are* bad. They're the worst of the new books, prior to Empire. (Cant make a call yet on if they're better or worse than Empire).
They're better than they WERE, they're still a weak army.
Depending ENTIRELY on buff stacking is bad army book design, because it will not happen against an even half way competent player who understands what your buffs are and do.
Really? They seem decent to me.
Then again, I haven't had a game against them yet :/
They suffer from some of the same problems the new Empire book does. They rely heavily on stacking buffs to try and make their abjectly terrible troops capable of fighting. Unfortunately most of their buffs are based off magic, which is inherently unreliable, and can be interfered with by your opponent. Warcats are good, and can absolutely pulverise infantry, but your opponent knows this so they get re-directed by chaff, shot by cannons, obliterated with magic, or simply tarpitted with ethereal creatures.
Dont get me wrong, there's some nice stuff in there, Tomb Scorpions are pretty nifty for example, but unless you get very lucky, or your opponent makes a fairly serious mistake, they just dont perform. (Ogres is a particularly hellish match up)
Johnny-Crass wrote:What kind of Ogres have you been fighting? That list is brilliantly weak
Hey Johnny, how about you explain why? You ducked me when I disproved you in my Empire thread, now you just say "it's weak" and run.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:That list..is just horrible, really now as an OK player that just relies to much on something that can be murdered messily by one good spell. Or a bunch of artillery.
I disagree. By spreading out your points into 3 units of Mournfang, you make your army less vulnerable to one big spell. People get that the 625pts in core isn't necessarily one big deathstar, right? It's whatever you want to fill you min core with. And I don't see this army dying superfast to "mass" artillery - again, shooting cannons at Mournfang means at best one model dead (assuming you don't expose your flank) and less shots at any ranked up units of Bulls/Guts. Don't forget my list still has 3 Tusks and 2 Ironblasters to charge/shoot back.
And for the record, while I think multiple units of Mournfang are good, I think there are lots of good options in the Ogre book which yield many different kinds of builds.
Sirius42 wrote:Personally I'd have to say that the empire are fine, they are balanced to the other 8th ed books, which is what they're meant to be. when the other 7th ed armies come round I just hope the pattern holds.
I get the feeling that the new release system is as much selecting armies that need reigning in for update as it is updating old books. (which leads me to believe dark elves, daemons and WoC will be updated soon, sorry wood elves and brets. )
Haven't DE already been updated? I think it was relatively recent.
zeekill wrote:Honestly I have to agree here. I make a thread just to point out that the new book sucks and everyone starts cussing and calling me names.
The new book only sucks if you plan on using what you already owned.
Its not just for Empire, its this way for every.single.GW release.
Exactly, at my LGS there is a guy who claims the new necrons codex is rubbish cause he hasn't won with it in the 2 games he played because he hasn't even attempted to learn how to readjust their tactics just like zeekill.
Sirius42 wrote:Personally I'd have to say that the empire are fine, they are balanced to the other 8th ed books, which is what they're meant to be. when the other 7th ed armies come round I just hope the pattern holds.
I get the feeling that the new release system is as much selecting armies that need reigning in for update as it is updating old books. (which leads me to believe dark elves, daemons and WoC will be updated soon, sorry wood elves and brets. )
Haven't DE already been updated? I think it was relatively recent.
DE were just after VC last time round IIRC.
It was that long ago? Blimey, I thought it was sooner.
Any ogre list that is light on characters and core is weak. You only need one unit of MF as they fit a very niche role that you really do not need multiple units filling.
Ironguts or Bullhorde with a couple gnomblar drops take you well over min core and then a kitted Lvl 4, Fire Belly with HH and a BSB take another big chunk of points out. Points that have been funneled into extra mournfang that you do not need.
As for the letter from the "Woodelf and Beastmen community" those people clearly have not played someone who is half competent with the book. In my area woodelves bark at the top three and my beastmen are consistently in the top 5 at tournaments. Beastmen have one of the last truly broken magic phases and I have read the Empire book, trust me Beastmen book is stronger in ANY hands.
Slaughtermaster level 4 with 5+ward and dispel scroll, Bruiser BSB, and a Firebelly fall short of 600pts. No magic banner (would like to find room for a Runemaw) and no HH (at the end of the day, a luxury item. I'd rather take the initiative sword or initiative potion to make sure flaming attacks knock regen off a HPA or Hydra.)
I can't see much of a need beyond that. If you really need more points, drop one of the 3 units of Mournfang. Two units are still scary.
Care to explain why light on core is weak? I would argue that Mournfang will out fight and generally outlast equal points of bulls and guts. The exception of course is to initiative spells and super mass artillery.
I actually think Bull/Gut hordes are horrible. Easy to redirect and pretty much equals an autoloss to anybody who takes a level 4 Death wizard.
I'd rather take 6 Guts with command (Slaughtermaster and BSB go here) and 7 Bulls with shields and command (Firebelly goes here) = 542. Remaining points can be spent on Gnoblar drops.
Ironguts can take a +1ld banner and can pull their weight in combat. Add onto that you have fast moving Sabretusks and MF to take out any pesky mages and you should be set.
Ogres almost always win at deployment as the average list has 5+ chaff drops. You should know where that scary death mage is
Well I don't want to de-rail this thread any further with Ogre talk.
I'll just say that my build can take all those things you mention, and it still has at least 2 units of 4 Mournfang. Your claim was that most competitive lists don't take more than 1 unit, I say that I can take all the essentials just fine and instead of padding the army out with more Guts/Bulls, I'd rather take a second (or third) unit of Mournfang. If you'd like to continue this Ogre discussion, please PM me.
Furycat wrote:Rather than picking at individual points in the "Dearest Empire Players," post, though there are many, I'll simply say this.
The new Empire book relies on buff stacking. Buff stacking does not actually work on the tabletop. It is bad army book design.
^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat. You can cry "Demigryphs" all you want but those don't have the damage required to get rid of ranked units.
marielle wrote:
"Dearest Empire Players,
We are so sorry about the appropriate readjustment ..er.. I mean "nerf" to your already ridiculous access to warmachines.
You of course mean how all of them but the cannon and maybe the rocket battery were nerfed into uselessness, right?
We are so sorry to learn that you not only gained Monstrous Cavalry that have a 1+ armor save
Which does not put out enough damage to counter how poor our core is...
but also gained another excellent cavalry unit that's Stubborn to further add amazing synergy with the new units.
Since when was cavalry any good? Especially Cavalry that can't put out any damage after first turn.
We are so sorry to learn that your ridiculously low priced core units were raised to appropriate levels and that your generals now provide the Lizardman "Cold-blooded" to their unit for break tests.
Yes. Our "ridiculously" low priced units that were so priced because they suck and can't soak any damage.
We are sorry to learn that your Steamtank is no longer auto-slain by spells like Purple Sun or Pit of Shades.
That's ok, keep in mind it's T6 now, and after 1 wound only works 66% of the time...
We are also so sorry to learn that your new rare selections have provided you with mobile artillary and augment options that make any close combat army break into a cold sweat.
Close combat armies might break into a cold sweat, but our crappy troops will still die just as quickly as before and fail to put out any significant damage, just as before.
Furthermore, the laser is not much better than your average bolt thrower and will always be dispelled because your opponent gets +2 or +4 to dispel, while you don't get bonuses to cast. The heavens version only does significant damage on the roll of a 4, and even then that is only after successfully casting the spell without your opponent dispelling.
We are so sorry you lost your ability to gain 2 -6 dispel dice or so automatically in a magic phase by virtue of spamming warrior priests.
Thanks.
We are also sorry that your detachments gain the benefits/special rules of their parent unit.
But not the "augment options that make any close combat army break into a cold sweat"
We are so sorry that your army became worse and more reliant on magic than ever.
Fixed.
We are so sorry that you have to rely onluck and your opponent to pity your worthless attempts to cast your buffs while he gets bonuses to dispelling rather than bombarding your opponent from your deployment zone with almost as much artillery as Dwarfs get and gunlines.
Fixed.
We are so sorry you gained access to not only dragons but also griffons and pegasi!
Hooray! A dragon with a rider that can't fight in combat for his life, your average T5 no-save monster that will run into combat and do nothing but die, and your average flying cavalry mount. Can't you just see the excitement on my face...
So sorry that you have now gained so much versatility that you can handle any army!
But we can't because our troops drop like flies and don't do any damage.
We are so sorry that you can take characters that exist solely to assassinate other characters for cheap.
That have a 12" range and BS4, and only assassinate on a killing blow. That means you need 5's and then 6's to kill anything.
We are also sorry that your new rare selections are just as cheap as your other warmachines yet provided amazing benefits to the army.
Except that they are not warmachines. If they were warmachines they would fire like cannons and such. What we get is a worthless bound spell on an expensive wagon that will die to a feather brushing against it.
It has to really suck to be an empire player right now and have a weakarmy.
Fixed
You also have to remember that all empire bound spells are innate and therefore cannot miscast so you can throw 6 dice at a prayer if needed and it can irresistible with no negative, same goes for the laser of light (which makes it quite good for shooting up stegadons and other large monsters)
As long as you only make 4 Steam Points (which is what Empire players did anyway) - the Steam tank is still reliable.
Have you looked at the misfire table?
4 Steam Points means that if you misfire, you can't blow yourself up.
Most of the results yield either lost some steam points or gain some steam points (at the cost of some wounds.) This means that the Steam Tank is still doing something!
Whereas in the old version, misfiring meant useless for a turn.
Let's say the Steam Tank drops down to 4 wounds (pretty drastic and still pretty hard considering T6 and 1+ armour.) You choose to make 4 Steam Points. If you roll 2-4 on the artillery dice, you're absolutely fine. If you roll anything else, your most likely results is losing D3 or D6 steam points. You have a decent chance of still firing the cannon which is a real cannon now barring range.
So I feel the Steam Tank is pretty good even under pretty horrible conditions (4 wounds left) - forget the fact that early game it's way more reilable. Add the 360 charge and points break and you have a winner.
Furycat wrote:Rather than picking at individual points in the "Dearest Empire Players," post, though there are many, I'll simply say this.
The new Empire book relies on buff stacking. Buff stacking does not actually work on the tabletop. It is bad army book design.
^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat. You can cry "Demigryphs" all you want but those don't have the damage required to get rid of ranked units.
Empire wasn't really close to viable in combat last book really. You had to do enough damage to them before they hit your lines to have a chance. That and make your combat stuff unbreakable.
Sirius42 wrote:You also have to remember that all empire bound spells are innate and therefore cannot miscast so you can throw 6 dice at a prayer if needed and it can irresistible with no negative, same goes for the laser of light (which makes it quite good for shooting up stegadons and other large monsters)
Yes. You get your spell off, and then your troops still lose in combat. You need multiple buffs to even hope to stand up to enemy combat troops.
Zoned wrote:About the Steam Tank:
As long as you only make 4 Steam Points (which is what Empire players did anyway) - the Steam tank is still reliable.
Have you looked at the misfire table?
4 Steam Points means that if you misfire, you can't blow yourself up.
Most of the results yield either lost some steam points or gain some steam points (at the cost of some wounds.) This means that the Steam Tank is still doing something!
Whereas in the old version, misfiring meant useless for a turn.
Let's say the Steam Tank drops down to 4 wounds (pretty drastic and still pretty hard considering T6 and 1+ armour.) You choose to make 4 Steam Points. If you roll 2-4 on the artillery dice, you're absolutely fine. If you roll anything else, your most likely results is losing D3 or D6 steam points. You have a decent chance of still firing the cannon which is a real cannon now barring range.
So I feel the Steam Tank is pretty good even under pretty horrible conditions (4 wounds left) - forget the fact that early game it's way more reilable. Add the 360 charge and points break and you have a winner.
True, but it is still T6 now, and with the amount of S5/S6 in today's meta you will be hurting.
Also it can no longer win combat is subsequent turns, as its "grind" is done in the movement phase.
zeekill wrote:Which does not put out enough damage to counter how poor our core is...
...
Our "ridiculously" low priced units that were so priced because they suck and can't soak any damage.
I mean, I'm not an Empire aficionado. But wouldn't just sticking a General and WP in any/all of your core/CC units, make them not die/suck as easily as you think, zeekill? They'll get Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ ward/re-roll Wounds. I don't care if the core is 3's across the board. Those are (essentially) FREE BUFFS that don't suck. At all. Not to mention the buffs they'll get from any College WMs around...
Ahh, who am I kidding?!? You'll just reply "pssh, free Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and 5+ ward or Wounds re-rolls are useless and suck and deserve to die a slow death and burn in hell!"
My bad, don't know what I was thinking trying to actually change an unreasonable person's mind! Over the internet of all things!!
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:I mean, I'm not an Empire aficionado. But wouldn't just sticking a General and WP in any/all of your core/CC units, make them not die/suck as easily as you think, zeekill? They'll get Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ ward/re-roll Wounds. I don't care if the core is 3's across the board. Those are (essentially) FREE BUFFS that don't suck. At all. Not to mention the buffs they'll get from any College WMs around...
You still need to get the warrior priest spells off. That's like saying simply by taking a Lore of Light I should be able to count on Birona's Timewarp.
A savvy opponent is going to try to shut those down, especially since they're only power level 3.
A savvy opponent is going to try to shut those down, especially since they're only power level 3.
Potentially, but all you need to do is one dice is while the enemy can fail on a 1 or 2 if he tries to one dice it.
So you just need to make him decide whether his dispel dice is worth hitting the bound spells, or your upper level echelon of spells.
plus, the Cold-Blooded and Hatred are innate rules. Plus, the ability to have all 3 simultaneously (Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ Ward or Wound re-rolls) is unique to Empire, as far as I know.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
I mean, I'm not an Empire aficionado. But wouldn't just sticking a General and WP in any/all of your core/CC units, make them not die/suck as easily as you think, zeekill? They'll get Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ ward/re-roll Wounds. I don't care if the core is 3's across the board.
Ok, you stick a captain and a WP in a unit of 50 halberdiers. Thats already 125 points. Your halberdiers now technically cost 8.5 points each. But not only that, any competent player will know to just allocate his attacks on the WP and Captain, killing them as they are still only T4, 2 wound Heroes. Or would you like to spend 50 points per hero to obtain some surviability? Your halberdiers now cost 9.5 points each, and your heroes will most likely still be killed over a few turns.
Plus, as I've said many times before, you are casting buffs with no bonus from wizard level, while your opponent is getting all the bonus he needs. If you argue single-dicing spells, then what if you fail? Or do you recommend taking 2 WP's to guarantee the spell going off?
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Those are (essentially) FREE BUFFS that don't suck. At all. Not to mention the buffs they'll get from any College WMs around...
Oh, so you just cheat and take WP and Captains for free? Good on you. I thought they had a point cost.
Also, while you are completely right about the WMs, also keep in mind that these things are T5 with a 5+ save. Easy prey for any shooting or magic.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Ahh, who am I kidding?!? You'll just reply "pssh, free Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and 5+ ward or Wounds re-rolls are useless and suck and deserve to die a slow death and burn in hell!"
Still not free.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:My bad, don't know what I was thinking trying to actually change an unreasonable person's mind! Over the internet of all things!!
I'm not unreasonable. I'm being realistic. From your post I see you assume things are "free" when they are not, you assume your magic phase will work flawlessly, and you assume that the characters that give the buffs won't die.
If you argue single-dicing spells, then what if you fail?
You try again, you don't get concentration broken from bound spells.
You can't use the same spell again...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least they're cheap! Have you tried taking a giant lately?
Arguing something is good because something else is worse is a poor argument.
Remind me to smack a vampire counts player, because that's how he played it against me. Thought it was how it was done since it's different from casting normally.
As for the cheapness, it's a cheap support large type unit rather than a large 200+ beatstick that can't even get into combat, the only big monster units that can feasibly get into combat are those against armies without cannons or shadow spells.
Or if their overpowered, ala HPA or hydra.
Makes me want to use those forgeworld monsters, they do quite well in the balance vs cost department. (Even if they cost quite a bit,
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:
I mean, I'm not an Empire aficionado. But wouldn't just sticking a General and WP in any/all of your core/CC units, make them not die/suck as easily as you think, zeekill? They'll get Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and either 5+ ward/re-roll Wounds. I don't care if the core is 3's across the board.
Ok, you stick a captain and a WP in a unit of 50 halberdiers. Thats already 125 points. Your halberdiers now technically cost 8.5 points each. But not only that, any competent player will know to just allocate his attacks on the WP and Captain, killing them as they are still only T4, 2 wound Heroes. Or would you like to spend 50 points per hero to obtain some surviability? Your halberdiers now cost 9.5 points each, and your heroes will most likely still be killed over a few turns.
Plus, as I've said many times before, you are casting buffs with no bonus from wizard level, while your opponent is getting all the bonus he needs. If you argue single-dicing spells, then what if you fail? Or do you recommend taking 2 WP's to guarantee the spell going off?
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Those are (essentially) FREE BUFFS that don't suck. At all. Not to mention the buffs they'll get from any College WMs around...
Oh, so you just cheat and take WP and Captains for free? Good on you. I thought they had a point cost.
Also, while you are completely right about the WMs, also keep in mind that these things are T5 with a 5+ save. Easy prey for any shooting or magic.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Ahh, who am I kidding?!? You'll just reply "pssh, free Cold-Blooded, Hatred, and 5+ ward or Wounds re-rolls are useless and suck and deserve to die a slow death and burn in hell!"
Still not free.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:My bad, don't know what I was thinking trying to actually change an unreasonable person's mind! Over the internet of all things!!
I'm not unreasonable. I'm being realistic. From your post I see you assume things are "free" when they are not, you assume your magic phase will work flawlessly, and you assume that the characters that give the buffs won't die.
People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.
But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place
LunaHound wrote:People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.
But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place
I even said "essentially", b/c how many people would not take a WP or General/Captain?
Just because its stupid NOT to take one, does not make it free.
I could say there is no reason NOT to take double Hydra in a DE list. To you that means it doesn't cost points?
We are not comparing Empire to other Empire, in which case everything has a WP or Captain. We are comparing Empire to other armies. If you want to argue usefulness when combined with a Captain and WP, please keep in mind you are arguing what is essentially 9.5 point halberdiers (assuming a unit of 50), regardless of whether or not your buffs even activate in the first place.
LunaHound wrote:People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.
But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place
I even said "essentially", b/c how many people would not take a WP or General/Captain?
Just because its stupid NOT to take one, does not make it free.
I could say there is no reason NOT to take double Hydra in a DE list. To you that means it doesn't cost points?
If Hydras gave a unit a couple of buffs, those buffs are essentially free if you can just plop that Hydra in the unit. Since you'd take the Hydras anyway, the non-required/non-mandatory buffs they give to others would be a bonus.
It'd be like getting a chili dog and plain fries and then putting the chili from the hot dog on the fries. The chili fries are essentially free (despite the cost of the chili dog and plain fries). You paid for the chili dog and plain fries. But you ended up getting chili fries!!!
LunaHound wrote:People like buffs, either through spells or special abilities. They like how the buffs look on their units.
But they always forget to factor in the point cost of wizard / characters that gave the buff in the first place
I even said "essentially", b/c how many people would not take a WP or General/Captain?
Just because its stupid NOT to take one, does not make it free.
I could say there is no reason NOT to take double Hydra in a DE list. To you that means it doesn't cost points?
If Hydras gave a unit a couple of buffs, those buffs are essentially free if you can just plop that Hydra in the unit. Since you'd take the Hydras anyway, the non-required/non-mandatory buffs they give to others would be a bonus.
It'd be like getting a chili dog and plain fries and then putting the chili from the hot dog on the fries. The chili fries are essentially free (despite the cost of the chili dog and plain fries). You paid for the chili dog and plain fries. But you ended up getting chili fries!!!
I see your point, but then comes the realization that the buffs are EXACTLY what you are paying for. WP and Captains are both gak in combat for their points, their Ld means nothing as you will most likely be receiving extra Ld from the general anyway. Your comparison works with Hydras because you pay for the Hydra's effectiveness in combat. But with Empire hero choices you are paying the points for the buffs, not the characters themselves.
And again, keep in mind they can be killed with little effort.
zeekill wrote:but then comes the realization that the buffs are EXACTLY what you are paying for. WP and Captains are both gak in combat for their points, their Ld means nothing as you will most likely be receiving extra Ld from the general anyway. Your comparison works with Hydras because you pay for the Hydra's effectiveness in combat. But with Empire hero choices you are paying the points for the buffs, not the characters themselves.
And again, keep in mind they can be killed with little effort.
Would have thought buffs would be good on an edition of WHFB thats focusing around big-block combat. Those buffs will go a long way and I find alot of the comparisons and downsides you point out are focusing on multiple books at a time rather then realistically.
I can't help but find this topic from someone who was specifically looking for an army with no hard-counter to be taken with a grain of salt, they might not be good against everyone but no one should be. From what I've heard quite a few people seem to enjoy the differences I just don't see what you were really expecting? The same book cheaper points?
And to be perfectly honest, your guys are only human why will heroes be amazing in combat, if anything a human's 'heroes' biggest ability is to rally those behind him and inspire them not personally stick it to the man.
Sasa0mg wrote:Would have thought buffs would be good on an edition of WHFB thats focusing around big-block combat. Those buffs will go a long way and I find alot of the comparisons and downsides you point out are focusing on multiple books at a time rather then realistically.
I can't help but find this topic from someone who was specifically looking for an army with no hard-counter to be taken with a grain of salt, they might not be good against everyone but no one should be. From what I've heard quite a few people seem to enjoy the differences I just don't see what you were really expecting? The same book cheaper points?
And to be perfectly honest, your guys are only human why will heroes be amazing in combat, if anything a human's 'heroes' biggest ability is to rally those behind him and inspire them not personally stick it to the man.
I was expecting a book that would be powerful. This book is a piece of CRUDdace.
Buffs are good for big blocks when those big blocks are good in combat, or have the potential to be good in combat. Our blocks are bad at combat and overpriced. Also, like I said before, said buffs are not guaranteed, you have to get through the opponent's magic defence, AND you have to make sure the WP can ever survive in combat, which is tough for a T4 W2 model.
As for the last comment, no. I was not expecting them to be good at combat, but I was expecting them to at least be resilient, and for their buffs to be reliable. A dead WP or a dead Captain can't inspire anything, and an alive WP has trouble buffing anything.
curran12 wrote:And it is funny that Ogres were bemoaned as weak in their first week or so out as well...
I never did that. I predicted them as being either balanced or powerful (never OP, but I don't think of them as OP now). Turns out they were powerful.
Same with O&G
TK I thought of as average at best on Day 1, and look what it is.
VC I think is balanced but situationally powerful, but I dont think enough time has passed to judge the validity of that.
A lot of poor classification of power comes from people that don't know what they are doing. I'm no pro, not even close, but I like to think that I know what I'm doing.
curran12 wrote:And it is funny that Ogres were bemoaned as weak in their first week or so out as well...
I never did that. I predicted them as being either balanced or powerful (never OP, but I don't think of them as OP now). Turns out they were powerful.
.
He didn't say you did, just people in general. And the implied point is that given time like you're giving the VC book the list may appear not as awful as you think it is now.
And for all the whining about the stank being T6, it was always T6 apart from the 8th ed FAQ which made it T10
zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.
You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.
zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.
You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.
zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.
You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.
See a trend there?
No?
I have to agree I don't see exactly what you mean, jouso.
zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.
You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.
See a trend there?
No?
What he means is nobody takes the shamans without Big un's and a 5++ instead of 6++ ward save.
zeekill wrote:^ This, 100%. Ogres and O&G are both able to make large units of strong troops such as SOBU or Ironguts. Empire have nothing of the sort, and rely WAY too much on magic to make their units even CLOSE to viable in combat.
You can take a single unit of SOBU, and then they're at their best when joined by a shaman with the shrunken head.
See a trend there?
No?
What he means is nobody takes the shamans without Big un's and a 5++ instead of 6++ ward save.
At least I havn't seen anyone take extra squads.
Yes. But unlike the Warrior Priest who is WS4 T4 W2, perhaps a 4+/5++ something like that depending on magic items. The shaman is T5 W3 5++ save and probably has the Fencer's blades so WS10.
Also he is buffing a unit that is good in combat already, making them godly in combat.
A WP struggles to make a unit that sucks viable in combat.
Lastly, the shaman is bought in order to obtain a Lvl 4, the 5++ is just icing on the cake. A WP you pay your points specifically to obtain the buff.
Sure, he struggles to make 2 more units that are poor viable in combat.
And being cheaper means nothing if he's dead. The whole point isn't about cost, its about keeping your buff on your unit. The shaman will rarely die (in my experience), while the WP will. Who lost 100+ points and no longer has buffs? The Empire player.
And again, with Orcs you dont pay the points for the buff, you pay the points for the wizard. Only 50 points is actually dedicated to the buff, the rest is the cost of having a Lvl 4 (with a very powerful lore, and tons of resilience)
Yes, WP confers hatred and the results of his prayers to his unit's detachments.
zeekill, good for you expressing your opinions. You seem to take critisism on the chin. If people didnt express their opinions like you then forums would be a boring place.
In my ignoramus, I think the nerf is good for warhammer. Instead of blasting stuff (arty) and magicing them away (saving power dice), tarpitting (stank) and refusing a magic phase (DD), empire generals gotta think more.
Prob be more like OnG & Ogres. Those armies no longer have "cookie cutter" builds now. Sure, there are staples but also a lot of variety too.
KSpen wrote:zeekill, good for you expressing your opinions. You seem to take critisism on the chin. If people didnt express their opinions like you then forums would be a boring place.
In my ignoramus, I think the nerf is good for warhammer. Instead of blasting stuff (arty) and magicing them away (saving power dice), tarpitting (stank) and refusing a magic phase (DD), empire generals gotta think more.
Prob be more like OnG & Ogres. Those armies no longer have "cookie cutter" builds now. Sure, there are staples but also a lot of variety too.
I agree with most of your post, but like I said before I think we were over-nerfed.
Also O&G and Ogres have constants in just about every list. For O&G its SOBU and mangler squigs. For Ogres its Mournfangs and Ironblasters. Not so much cookie-cutter within each list, but each list features those choices which are just so obvious and stand out as so powerful that everyone takes them (competitively)
I think there's a difference between 'staples' and entire 'cookie cutter' lists.
I think we'll just have to wait and see how people fair with the new book in actual play - there seem to be plenty of pros and cons and it's pretty hard (impossible) to model each unit's effectiveness holistically on paper.
I think the only think that got overnerfed was the Mortar. Str2 and a price hike was abit much.
Everything else was pretty much what I expected it to be. Cannons more expensive, check. Warrior Priest nerf, check. Steamtank nerf, check.
The whole deal with State Troops is abit of a "WTF?" moment but when you consider all the easy buffs they have access to their price is more reasonable. Halberdier Hordes with Hatred and +1 to hit is not something I want to be on the wrong side of.
karlosovic wrote:I think there's a difference between 'staples' and entire 'cookie cutter' lists.
Yes. Cookie cutter lists usually feature staples. But that's the thing. Right now the 3 more powerful 8th edition books (in the opinions of people on forum sites as far as I've seen, for those that are wondering my source) are Ogres and Orcs.
Within 30 minutes of opening the Orc book I knew for a fact that SOBU and Manglers would be a staple in every list because of how powerful they are.
Within 1-2 hours of me opening the Ogre book (took me longer since ogres are a pretty unique army, being entirely monstrous and whatnot) I knew Ironblasters and Mournfangs would be staples because of how powerful they are.
Its been several days since I've looked at the Empire book, and I am unimpressed by everything in it. I can see Stank and Demigryphs being staples. But not because they are very powerful, just because we have nothing better. That is saddening to say the least.
Edit: Not to say that they are bad, just not amazing (such as those choices for Orcs and Ogres)
Grey Templar wrote:I think the only think that got overnerfed was the Mortar. Str2 and a price hike was abit much.
Everything else was pretty much what I expected it to be. Cannons more expensive, check. Warrior Priest nerf, check. Steamtank nerf, check.
The whole deal with State Troops is abit of a "WTF?" moment but when you consider all the easy buffs they have access to their price is more reasonable. Halberdier Hordes with Hatred and +1 to hit is not something I want to be on the wrong side of.
I agree will all of this but the "easy buffs."
Your buffs are bound, so you don't get bonus to cast. Your opponent will get +4 to dispel and often +2 on a supporting caster as well. Buffs will not be particularly easy to give out, especially considering you need multiple at once to make our units viable in combat compared to other things you may be facing.
Grey Templar wrote:I think the only think that got overnerfed was the Mortar. Str2 and a price hike was abit much.
Even then I think the mortar is still useful against the right opponent, which tells you how good they used to be. Then again, they might just be years of goodwill built up by my little mortar brigade. I think I'll still take one in about half of my lists.
The other unit that got over-nerfed was swordsmen, who went down in effectiveness (a little from the IN drop, a lot from their parry save now being fairly pointless because the ward save is accessible through so much else in the Empire list).
Everything else was pretty much what I expected it to be. Cannons more expensive, check. Warrior Priest nerf, check. Steamtank nerf, check.
Warrior priests, in my opinion, are about the same as they were. Sure I'll miss the dispel die, but the spells are better and the guys themselves are much cheaper.
Nor is the steamtank nerfed, merely changed from "unkillable tarpit that lost it's damage potential as soon as you scored a wound" to cheaper, more vulnerable unit, but one with way more killing potential, and one that can sustain that killing potential even once it starts taking wounds.
The two units I was most disappointed in were greatswords and flagellants. Flagellants, ridiculously, were made worse and more expensive, while greatswords were given a minor buff (ability to pass stubborn onto detachments) and apparently that was worth upping the cost by 1.
The whole deal with State Troops is abit of a "WTF?" moment but when you consider all the easy buffs they have access to their price is more reasonable. Halberdier Hordes with Hatred and +1 to hit is not something I want to be on the wrong side of.
Halberdiers are still an excellent unit. A point more, of course, but they line up nicely with the various buffs offered by different Empire units. I expect my 50 man horde will remain the core of all my competitive Empire builds.
The other unit that's been made much better is the helblaster. Bizarrely, it's now more reliable than generic artillery.
Yes. But unlike the Warrior Priest who is WS4 T4 W2, perhaps a 4+/5++ something like that depending on magic items. The shaman is T5 W3 5++ save and probably has the Fencer's blades so WS10.
Also he is buffing a unit that is good in combat already, making them godly in combat.
A WP struggles to make a unit that sucks viable in combat.
Lastly, the shaman is bought in order to obtain a Lvl 4, the 5++ is just icing on the cake. A WP you pay your points specifically to obtain the buff.
Very few people ttake the shrunken head on a lv4 anymore. Even with T5 fencers blades and a 5+ ward is not something you want o risk putting in combat.
Most people (bar themed lists) put the shrunken head on a lv2 (T4 W2), and keep a ngobbo lv4 to take full advantage of the mushroom rule.
In any case, as I said on the other thread you are taking a gamble hitting the WP. He has higher WS, T and, probably, AS than regular troops so you're sacrificing CR to take a shot at the WP.
Most things out there outside of gobbos, skavens, etc. (and those would have a slim chance of killing the WP anyway) won't be steadfast against Empire so it is a tough choice to make.
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zeekill wrote:Your buffs are bound, so you don't get bonus to cast. Your opponent will get +4 to dispel and often +2 on a supporting caster as well. Buffs will not be particularly easy to give out, especially considering you need multiple at once to make our units viable in combat compared to other things you may be facing.
It doesn't work like that.
Each WP can easily single-die their prayers, which will either make the opp burn two dispel dice or trigger a 1/3 chance of losing concentration (and thus putting themselves in a disadvantage against further casts from the empire wizard).
Boo-hoo, poor empire players... At least your army isn't reliant on units that are defunct in this edition, doesn't have to pay 5 points for strictly worse state troops and pays over cost for everything
And the icing on the cake is that knightly orders are arguably better than knights of the realm, and your special choice knights are almost as good as our killy-est unit in the whole book
at least we have the treb- oh wait, you've got cannon, mortars, hellstorms and hellblasters, and the stank, and better monsters
Your state troops are demigods compared to men at arms and have access to triple the buffs we do, while you get hatred, +1 to hit, cold blooded etc I can get a one time 6++, whoopity freakin do
EmilCrane wrote:Boo-hoo, poor empire players... At least your army isn't reliant on units that are defunct in this edition, doesn't have to pay 5 points for strictly worse state troops and pays over cost for everything
And the icing on the cake is that knightly orders are arguably better than knights of the realm, and your special choice knights are almost as good as our killy-est unit in the whole book
at least we have the treb- oh wait, you've got cannon, mortars, hellstorms and hellblasters, and the stank, and better monsters
Your state troops are demigods compared to men at arms and have access to triple the buffs we do, while you get hatred, +1 to hit, cold blooded etc I can get a one time 6++, whoopity freakin do
No, knights of the realm are better than knightly orders, i'd much rather have the ward save, lance formation, extra movement and the free champion in exchange for an armour save. The treb is is still an absolute bargain, 90 points for a strength 5 stone thrower? Yes please. Compared to mortars which are a similar price bracket 3 extra points of strength in exchange for a small blast template, a compromise i'd happily take. Men at arms I agree should be WS 3, however stick a damsel with a prayer icon and wildform you have a fairly decent unit. Remember that cavalry is our speciality, not infantry, the men at arms are just there to hold stuff up, they're not the backbone of the army. I agree that demigryph knights are better than are equivalent, however lack of a ward save will hurt them against warmachines, and they are still T3 like us. Overall whilst Bretonnians are an old book, they still able to compete with most armies, and our cavalry is still better than empires, if anything this new change will benefit Bretonnia as the gunline, the biggest problem is no longer a viable option for Empire. And our Calvary is still able to take on Empires, and along with Cheap trebs to thin out the hordes and a prophetess to stop the buffs, Empire should not be a problem.
jouso wrote:Very few people ttake the shrunken head on a lv4 anymore. Even with T5 fencers blades and a 5+ ward is not something you want o risk putting in combat.
Most people (bar themed lists) put the shrunken head on a lv2 (T4 W2), and keep a ngobbo lv4 to take full advantage of the mushroom rule.
What? The mushroom rule makes the lvl2 gobbo perfect for drawing out dice, and the Big Waaagh is a hundred times better for a Lvl 4 to take than the Little Waaagh. Little is a supporting lore. The spells in there will not win you games, they will just help a bit. The best spells being the Signature (which is perfect as it is guarenteed on a Lvl 2) and the Bad moon (which requires close range, not favorable for a goblin). Big Waaagh on the other hand is full of game-winning spells. Hand of Gork hands down wins games on its own (see what I did there? ). Foot of Gork is completely overpowered, the template is the perfect size to hit most units and its casting value is way too low. Ere We Go! is an AoE hatred buff for an army that is already incredible in combat.
jouso wrote:In any case, as I said on the other thread you are taking a gamble hitting the WP. He has higher WS, T and, probably, AS than regular troops so you're sacrificing CR to take a shot at the WP.
Who cares? Enemy units that are decent in combat will be winning by so much anyway that they can afford to lose a bit of combat res and kill the WP.
jouso wrote:Most things out there outside of gobbos, skavens, etc. (and those would have a slim chance of killing the WP anyway) won't be steadfast against Empire so it is a tough choice to make.
So things that are steadfast can attack him (4's and 5's? Big deal, that's 1 wound down with 6 attacks) because they will be steadfast anyway. Things that will be winning combat can afford to attack and kill him (say, 6 Lizardmen attacks? 4's and 4's thats 1.5 wounds with -1 to saves).
Either way over 2-3 rounds he is dead. Against tougher opponents like WoC or High Elf elite units he will no doubt drop on the first turn of combat.
jouso wrote:It doesn't work like that.
Each WP can easily single-die their prayers, which will either make the opp burn two dispel dice or trigger a 1/3 chance of losing concentration (and thus putting themselves in a disadvantage against further casts from the empire wizard).
Ok, so I see the result of your 1 die.
1: You fail
2: You fail
3: I attempt to dispel with 1 die, without aid from a wizard's bonus.
4-5: I attempt to dispel with 1 die, with bonus from a Lvl 2.
6: I attempt to dispel with 1 die with Lvl 2 bonus, or if absolutely necessary I throw 2 dice with the Lvl 4.
If you can 1-die things, so can I. And just like you can fail 1/3 of the time and lose some of your advantage in Power dice, as well as your ability to cast that same prayer that turn, I can fail 1/3 of the time and either lose nothing or lose my Lvl 2's concentration. Big whoop.
Or if something NEEDS to go away, I make it go away with 2 dice, and you can't cast the same prayer again.
Here's the thing I don't get. If you are spamming WP anyways, you have the +1 PD buffer, in addition to wizards. you are likely dropping what 5-6 channels at 2k?
So odds are you'll have a signifigant power dice advantage. The unit will have hatred already since the priest is there, and the reroll to wound, shield, or flaming. Correct me if I am wrong, if you are worried about being dispeled just drop a lot of dice, it's no worries as prayers are innate bound abilities, and no risk.
zeekill wrote:
Either way over 2-3 rounds he is dead. Against tougher opponents like WoC or High Elf elite units he will no doubt drop on the first turn of combat.
Not going to comment on the rest, but I felt I had to chime in here: Surely that's supposed to happen? Since when are you supposed to be able to beat the best elites in the game with your bog-standard halberdiers? I'm not being sarcastic; being relatively new to WHFB I don't see the issue...
Acardia wrote:Here's the thing I don't get. If you are spamming WP anyways, you have the +1 PD buffer, in addition to wizards. you are likely dropping what 5-6 channels at 2k?
So odds are you'll have a signifigant power dice advantage. The unit will have hatred already since the priest is there, and the reroll to wound, shield, or flaming. Correct me if I am wrong, if you are worried about being dispeled just drop a lot of dice, it's no worries as prayers are innate bound abilities, and no risk.
Count up how many points you are dropping into trying to get your magic phase off.
Count up how many points you are dropping into trying to get your magic phase off.
As opposed to what? every single other army besides Teclis and lizardmen? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, anyone with a level 4 on the table is spending a lot of points "trying to make their magic phase work." Warrior priests are 65 points naked and can cast 3 bound spells a turn, that's HARDLY a massive investment. If you take a wizard, a wagon of one variety or the other, and a few warrior priests, you might easily find yourself with 3+ channels and a bonus dice in one phase or the other.
Even at the most barebones level, 1-dicing casting prayers will succeed 66% of the time, and then 1 dice dispelling prayers will succeed very close to 66% of the time when you take into account wizard level, so it seems like enough variance to make for an interesting magic phase with the potential to go either way.
Count up how many points you are dropping into trying to get your magic phase off.
As opposed to what? every single other army besides Teclis and lizardmen? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, anyone with a level 4 on the table is spending a lot of points "trying to make their magic phase work." Warrior priests are 65 points naked and can cast 3 bound spells a turn, that's HARDLY a massive investment. If you take a wizard, a wagon of one variety or the other, and a few warrior priests, you might easily find yourself with 3+ channels and a bonus dice in one phase or the other.
Even at the most barebones level, 1-dicing casting prayers will succeed 66% of the time, and then 1 dice dispelling prayers will succeed very close to 66% of the time when you take into account wizard level, so it seems like enough variance to make for an interesting magic phase with the potential to go either way.
The difference is that other armies use magic in order to do extra damage.
Empire have to use magic just to make their units viable in combat. Not only this, but other armies get a +4 to cast their spells. You suggest 1-dicing, which is effective, but at the same time means you are relying on pure chance to see what buffs you get, if any. What if you NEED buffs on a unit, right now? You have 2 prayers that provide buffs, and if you try to get them off with 2 or 3 dice you are only hurting yourself as now your opponent can use 2 dice himself in order to stop you without any fear of wasting DD. Its like the 7th edition Ogre book. You throw 1 die at each spell and let your opponent choose which to dispel. However now in 8th edition you are worse off because your opponent gets +4 or +2 to dispel with.
In addition, other armies can keep their supporting casters in nearly unreachable bunkers. Empire are forced to keep them on the front lines, and they are very fragile there. This means while your average Lvl 2 is ~110 points, so is the WP because you need to buy defensive items.
As for furthering your magic power, we have access to +1 PD, and/or +1 DD. That's it. Compared to other armies, that is quite poor. I will try to only mention 8th ed books as people don't seem to like comparisons to earlier books.
Ogres - Sickle gives +2 to cast, their lore's passive ability gives +1, Deathfisting neuters your ability to dispel.
VC - Mortis engine with Tome gives +2 to cast for EVERY wizard within range
Orcs - Magic mushrooms make Goblin casters like mini-Slann
I don't own the TK book, but I think they have something in there that gives an extra die or something.
Having tons of easy to cast bound spells is more powerful then you think.
You can one dice them with no penelty, especially since WPs are pretty cheap for what they do you could concievably have 2 in each of your giant blocks(if you keep them cheap)
One dicing a spell is pretty annoying for an opponent. You have a 50/50 chance it goes off. Then your opponent has to either let it go or burn 2 dice at a dispel, because no one will risk their lvl4 on a single dice for dispel.
Its an attrition phase where you end up only getting 1-2 prayers off out of a possable 6-7, but you still have 3-4 dice to cast regular spells with and your units have been buffed pretty substantially.
Is it worse then the previous booK? Yeah, but you had it coming. WPs were way too powerful. Look at what they can do and not what you, deservedly, lost.
Grey Templar wrote:Having tons of easy to cast bound spells is more powerful then you think.
You can one dice them with no penelty, especially since WPs are pretty cheap for what they do you could concievably have 2 in each of your giant blocks(if you keep them cheap)
One dicing a spell is pretty annoying for an opponent. You have a 50/50 chance it goes off. Then your opponent has to either let it go or burn 2 dice at a dispel, because no one will risk their lvl4 on a single dice for dispel.
Its an attrition phase where you end up only getting 1-2 prayers off out of a possable 6-7, but you still have 3-4 dice to cast regular spells with and your units have been buffed pretty substantially.
Is it worse then the previous booK? Yeah, but you had it coming. WPs were way too powerful. Look at what they can do and not what you, deservedly, lost.
Again, the buffs they provide don't make our units spectacular, they struggle to make them even viable against good enemies.
Secondly, most people take a Lvl 4 and a Lvl 2. They can use a lvl 2 to dispel your single die casts with single die dispels (if you roll a 3, you don't even need to risk the lvl2). You have a 66% chance to cast it successfully, and the Lvl 2 has a 66% chance to dispel unless you roll a 6.
Thirdly, you only get your buffs for 2 rounds of combat (hatred only for 1). After that the WP either has to re-cast, or more likely has already been killed.
Lastly, if you fail to get the casting value required, you just threw away a dice and lost the opportunity to cast that prayer that turn, so it is not a flawless operation.
Ogres - Sickle gives +2 to cast, their lore's passive ability gives +1, Deathfisting neuters your ability to dispel.
Causes a wound on the unit, can instantly kill the slaughtermaster/butcher wielding it instantly at the end of a magic phase (Has screwed me over before). The passive requires a spell to be cast beforehand, and can cause wounds.
VC - Mortis engine with Tome gives +2 to cast for EVERY wizard within range
Expensive, even more expensive than the wizard stuff, and just as easier to hit, oh and it causes DOUBLE MISCASTS
Orcs - Magic mushrooms make Goblin casters like mini-Slann
And if they roll a 1 on said magic mushroom, they instantly fail to cast a spell, and on a 1-3 they take an additional wound.
I don't own the TK book, but I think they have something in there that gives an extra die or something.
But +D3 dice on the casket, which is already a fantastic bound spell, laughs at empire's +1 dice
If it dies units within 12" take D6 S6 no armor save, magical hits, also costs more than the empires magical thing
All of these things have Issues. Not to mention the warrior priests grant a nice buff and still gets concentration for dispel and casting dice.
Johnny-Crass wrote:Pray tell how does the casket die in most games?
From my experience, S10 stone throwers (Brettonia), tons of poisoned attacks, (Gutter runners, lizardmen), Cheap fliers (High elves), and any high powered magic.
But I do agree with your points on the Sickle, Mortis ENgine (I hate this thing and as a VC player I would NEVER run one) and I have had more bad shrooms than I could count when I played OnG
zeekill wrote:
What? The mushroom rule makes the lvl2 gobbo perfect for drawing out dice, and the Big Waaagh is a hundred times better for a Lvl 4 to take than the Little Waaagh. Little is a supporting lore. The spells in there will not win you games, they will just help a bit. The best spells being the Signature (which is perfect as it is guarenteed on a Lvl 2) and the Bad moon (which requires close range, not favorable for a goblin). Big Waaagh on the other hand is full of game-winning spells. Hand of Gork hands down wins games on its own (see what I did there? ). Foot of Gork is completely overpowered, the template is the perfect size to hit most units and its casting value is way too low. Ere We Go! is an AoE hatred buff for an army that is already incredible in combat.
Are you an orc player? Because I am. There are 3/4 other orc players in the area and as I told you basically no one fields a lv4 savage anymore. You MUST put him in combat which hurts his ability to magick the hell out of the opponents. You are putting a shaman there for the 5++ ward save, so you might as well take him cheap.
It's the same conundrum mages on big monsters face.
And foot of gork for me has gone from OMFG this is so great to simply good. It's OK against big blocks (assuming you get a repeat stomp and you don't get stomped in return) but it usually gets dispelled and, if it goes through scatters too much to be fully effective.
You want big waagh? Take a vanilla orc lv4 and put him in an arrer boy bunker.
Who cares? Enemy units that are decent in combat will be winning by so much anyway that they can afford to lose a bit of combat res and kill the WP.
Are you sure? Remember the prayer will stay in play even after the WP has been killed (hatred won't, though), so those CR points might hurt you. Those counter-charging detachments might be denying you rank bonus, etc.
So things that are steadfast can attack him (4's and 5's? Big deal, that's 1 wound down with 6 attacks) because they will be steadfast anyway. Things that will be winning combat can afford to attack and kill him (say, 6 Lizardmen attacks? 4's and 4's thats 1.5 wounds with -1 to saves).
You can always give him silvered steel or any other magic armour for extra survivality. In my experience, though, only the most elite of elites will hit the WP and would rather add CR. The best way to kill a WP still is taking his unit out.
jouso wrote:
Ok, so I see the result of your 1 die.
1: You fail
2: You fail
3: I attempt to dispel with 1 die, without aid from a wizard's bonus.
4-5: I attempt to dispel with 1 die, with bonus from a Lvl 2.
6: I attempt to dispel with 1 die with Lvl 2 bonus, or if absolutely necessary I throw 2 dice with the Lvl 4.
If you can 1-die things, so can I. And just like you can fail 1/3 of the time and lose some of your advantage in Power dice, as well as your ability to cast that same prayer that turn, I can fail 1/3 of the time and either lose nothing or lose my Lvl 2's concentration. Big whoop.
Or if something NEEDS to go away, I make it go away with 2 dice, and you can't cast the same prayer again.
Mathhammer says the dispelling player is at 2,5 disadvantage on average pre-channeling. The opponent will either burn dispel dice (thus paving the way for dwellers or some other game changer go through) or save them and let them go through.
You MUST put him in combat which hurts his ability to magick the hell out of the opponents. You are putting a shaman there for the 5++ ward save, so you might as well take him cheap.
It depends on what type of orc shaman your using, I run mine trying to get fists of gork (For epic punchyness), and 'Ere we go! (For even MOAR punchyness) and I use 'Eadbutt closer up so I can hit their squishy mages, and use hand of Gork to get into proper positions.
If you're taking the level 4 just to boost it up to 5++, thats wrong, what you really want that level 4 up in there for is a combined fists of gork + 'Ere we go!, so you gotta kit him for being killy. at the same time.
Maybe someone can clear this up for me, but am I correct that each and every warrior priest has 3 innate ability bound spells? So two warrior priests could cast 6 prayers (assuming they don't get an irresistible force result or some other issue that prevents further casting).
-Casting/Failing a bound spell has no bearing on the ability to try additional bound spells
-Each Warrior Priest knows 3 bound spells
-bound spells don't interact with the usual magic rules of "cast a spell once per turn" because it's not a wizard casting a spell, it's a character using a bound spell
Ogres - Sickle gives +2 to cast, their lore's passive ability gives +1, Deathfisting neuters your ability to dispel.
Causes a wound on the unit, can instantly kill the slaughtermaster/butcher wielding it instantly at the end of a magic phase (Has screwed me over before). The passive requires a spell to be cast beforehand, and can cause wounds.
VC - Mortis engine with Tome gives +2 to cast for EVERY wizard within range
Expensive, even more expensive than the wizard stuff, and just as easier to hit, oh and it causes DOUBLE MISCASTS
Orcs - Magic mushrooms make Goblin casters like mini-Slann
And if they roll a 1 on said magic mushroom, they instantly fail to cast a spell, and on a 1-3 they take an additional wound.
I don't own the TK book, but I think they have something in there that gives an extra die or something.
But +D3 dice on the casket, which is already a fantastic bound spell, laughs at empire's +1 dice
If it dies units within 12" take D6 S6 no armor save, magical hits, also costs more than the empires magical thing
All of these things have Issues. Not to mention the warrior priests grant a nice buff and still gets concentration for dispel and casting dice.
1) Can't argue with the auto-die, but I still see this thing taken a lot so people seem to think it is worth the risk. The 1W on a unit is nothing.
2) The Engine itself is worth its price through AoE attrition damage and giving your Horrors Regen(4+). Double miscasts is scary, but all you have to do is take the earthing rod and always cast on 2 dice, or 3 if nessesary (which is easy because our important spells (Sig, 1,2) are low casting values and we get +6 (or +3 or +4 from Lvl 1 or 2 Necros))
Also I forgot to mention the new Rod of Power that Vampires stole from us
3) And yet you think that a WP single-dicing is okay? While I do agree that it breaks the goblin's concentration, the goblin probably only has one spell worth casting in a specific situation anyway. I would say its less risk-reward than single-dicing with potentially a greater reward (because you gain free dice).
4) Like others have said, it is not easy to take these things down.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
You MUST put him in combat which hurts his ability to magick the hell out of the opponents. You are putting a shaman there for the 5++ ward save, so you might as well take him cheap.
It depends on what type of orc shaman your using, I run mine trying to get fists of gork (For epic punchyness), and 'Ere we go! (For even MOAR punchyness) and I use 'Eadbutt closer up so I can hit their squishy mages, and use hand of Gork to get into proper positions.
If you're taking the level 4 just to boost it up to 5++, thats wrong, what you really want that level 4 up in there for is a combined fists of gork + 'Ere we go!, so you gotta kit him for being killy. at the same time.
I run my Shaman to provide support through Hand of Gork and Ere We Go!, so he should stay with the SOBU anyway. With Fencer's Blades he does WS10 S5 A3 which is great if I roll Fists of Gork, and with the WS10 and T5 he as only died once out of around 15 or so games I have played with him.
frest wrote:Maybe someone can clear this up for me, but am I correct that each and every warrior priest has 3 innate ability bound spells? So two warrior priests could cast 6 prayers (assuming they don't get an irresistible force result or some other issue that prevents further casting).
-Casting/Failing a bound spell has no bearing on the ability to try additional bound spells
-Each Warrior Priest knows 3 bound spells
-bound spells don't interact with the usual magic rules of "cast a spell once per turn" because it's not a wizard casting a spell, it's a character using a bound spell
Well, its technically only 2 bound spells because you won't be casting the flaming one unless you are in a situation that requires it. But you are correct.
Acardia wrote:
I've played 10 games with it. Lost it twice once due to a Ogre Cannon(Had it coming killed 3 M-Fang and they panicked of the board Turn 1)
And the second time it got beat on by wulfrik.
So after it got rid of a Mournfang unit it died and you're unhappy?
As for Wulfrik, I can't really say anything as I'm no expert on TK, other than that is one special character from one Armybook, so don't sweat it.
zeekill wrote:
Again, the buffs they provide don't make our units spectacular, they struggle to make them even viable against good enemies.
Secondly, most people take a Lvl 4 and a Lvl 2. They can use a lvl 2 to dispel your single die casts with single die dispels (if you roll a 3, you don't even need to risk the lvl2). You have a 66% chance to cast it successfully, and the Lvl 2 has a 66% chance to dispel unless you roll a 6.
Thirdly, you only get your buffs for 2 rounds of combat (hatred only for 1). After that the WP either has to re-cast, or more likely has already been killed.
Lastly, if you fail to get the casting value required, you just threw away a dice and lost the opportunity to cast that prayer that turn, so it is not a flawless operation.
Warrior priest is plenty survivable. Just go wider than opponent, and stick in corner. Now you've got 1 rank and file, and 1 supporting attack. Even against warrior with halberds, you're looking at 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound, with 6+/6++ for the cheap heavy armor and shield. That averages less than 1 wound. Net result is, on average, warrior priest survives to give hate to all those halberds.
I think it's pretty hard to say what "Most people take" in terms of casting power. I see a pretty big mix of choices. If empire has a power dice advantage, they can do some nice things with warrior priests. If I've got 8 dice to your 6, I'm going to throw 5 or 6 at a unit nuking spell with my wizard lord. Then I'll throw my leftover dice at re-rolls to wound. You're more than welcome to let the unit nuke go off so that you have the dice to dispel the re-rolls to wound.
It's not fun when empire halberds kill 10 chaos warriors with halberds due to hate and re-rolls to wound. It doesn't matter that hate only last one round, and that buffs only last two rounds. Combat with empire shouldn't be long and drawn out. They should be winning significantly within the first turn or two anyway, or won't be winning at all, regardless of buffs.
How come warrior priests on barded steeds are being glossed over? T4 with 2+ armor, and giving re-rolls to wound or ward saves to a unit of knights is amazing. Re-rolls to hit is equally amazing.
Prayers shouldn't be the focus of warrior priests. It's all about the hate, free channeling, and in the even you've got extra dice, then you consider tossing dice at a prayer.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:If you're taking the level 4 just to boost it up to 5++, thats wrong, what you really want that level 4 up in there for is a combined fists of gork + 'Ere we go!, so you gotta kit him for being killy. at the same time.
I think you misread me. I usually put a lv2 with the shrunken head and either a lv4 night gobbo or a lv4 regular orc shaman.
I used to put a lv4, fencers blades, shrunken head but got killed too many times or couldn't cast the right spells.
