What exactly do we know about the two legions that are deleted from the IoM records?

I mean did they have their own primarch? Anyone hve any info on why they were deleted from IOM records and what not?

Nrljm wrote:What exactly do we know about the two legions that are deleted from the IoM records?

I mean did they have their own primarch? Anyone hve any info on why they were deleted from IOM records and what not?

Yes they had 20 Primarchs. The two legions activelly participated during the Great Crusade and both Primarchs were found.

For one reason or another, the legions did something and disobeyed the Emperor. They were punished and the other Primarchs were forbidden to speak of them again. The Space Marines in the legions were however kept quite on what was the ultimate fate of these legions.

During the Horus Heresy, Rogal Dorn and Malcador toyed with the idea of bringing both legions back to help fight Horus. This implies they were not destroyed. Judging by the nature of the conversation it most likely means they were either put into stasis or they were sent out on a mini crusade.



Also if anyone says they joined the Ultramarines they are wrong. That was a rumor of the Word Bearers Space Marines.

Sources are Lightning Tower, Mechanicum, and The First Heretic

Wow wish there was more about these two legions... Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

Nrljm wrote:Wow wish there was more about these two legions... Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

I dont remember anything. Someone could probably look it up in those books if they have it with them

Okay, I'm putting this up because I find it extremely well written, but I must stress it as entirely fan-made and unofficial. That said, it's been extremely accurate in the information it provides considering how long ago it was written.

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html

It matches up each of the primarchs with one of the major arcana of the Tarot. It then uses these to extrapolate to the two missing primarchs to guess at what their personalities and interactions with other primarchs may have been. If you're interested, the missing primarchs are described under the High Priestess and Fortune.

I use this for my own personal headcanon considering it's accuracy is almost scary, but again, it's not official.

Nrljm wrote:Wow wish there was more about these two legions... Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

No. Nothing to the point that would let you figure out things about them.

All we know is that one was destroyed ("the lost") and one was wiped from the records, with the Word Bearers believing that the Ultramarines absorbed the remainder into their ranks.

Kanluwen wrote:

Nrljm wrote:Wow wish there was more about these two legions... Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

No. Nothing to the point that would let you figure out things about them.

All we know is that one was destroyed ("the lost") and one was wiped from the records, with the Word Bearers believing that the Ultramarines absorbed the remainder into their ranks.

I just said we know more than that lol

I've seen a few people use their imaginations to create the lost primarchs,

'Lost' doesn't necessarily mean destroyed. they could be the first
'lost and damned' (chaos marines) or they could be floundering in the warp
or they could be having a party in a 'secret place (grey knights anyone?)' on Terra

Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

Nothing official or canonical. It's supposed to be a mystery, lost in the mists of time over the last 10,000 years between the time of the Heresy and the current year of the 41st millennium.

Decio wrote:I've seen a few people use their imaginations to create the lost primarchs,

'Lost' doesn't necessarily mean destroyed. they could be the first
'lost and damned' (chaos marines) or they could be floundering in the warp
or they could be having a party in a 'secret place (grey knights anyone?)' on Terra

They found out about the Horus Heresy before it started, left to Terra to warn Emperor, lost in warp for over 10,000 years. In the grim darkness of the 42nd millennium two legions of space marines come out of the warp near Terra to warn the Emperor about Horus.

Wow this is a huge opening for GW/FW to market on if they ever need to.....


"hey guys.....ummm... We kinda just located the lost legions..... And uhmmm....here's the new models, BUY THEM NOW!!"

Psssh. Until i'm given a direct answer by GW - i'm going along with the older (although subsequently outmoded) theory...

Back from the days when GW were still learning about things like canon...





Good old Sigmar.

Decio wrote:I've seen a few people use their imaginations to create the lost primarchs,

'Lost' doesn't necessarily mean destroyed. they could be the first
'lost and damned' (chaos marines) or they could be floundering in the warp
or they could be having a party in a 'secret place (grey knights anyone?)' on Terra

Maybe they're the legion of the damned?
LEGION of the damned.
Seems possible.

And maybe they are the bulbasaur legion, could be bloody anything... Tis why I asked if there's any actual facts about it..

I thought maybe legion of the damned but I'm pretty sure they have there own history of how they came to be...

Well it was just an idea. I think you already got the facts from Galdos. Insomuch as there are any facts about the two missing legions.

I wasn't being an ass or anything haha don't take it in the wrong way, I was just being witty lol...

I'm still sticking with the Tarot interpretation. It's predicted everything else correct about the primarchs, I trust its predictions of the missing primarchs as well.

GreatGunz wrote:

Decio wrote:I've seen a few people use their imaginations to create the lost primarchs,

'Lost' doesn't necessarily mean destroyed. they could be the first
'lost and damned' (chaos marines) or they could be floundering in the warp
or they could be having a party in a 'secret place (grey knights anyone?)' on Terra

Maybe they're the legion of the damned?
LEGION of the damned.
Seems possible.

The Legion of the Damned have (unfortunately) had their mysterious past revealed. They're the Fire Hawks chapter. Well, ex-Fire Hawks chapter.

I wish GW wouldn't reveal things like that.

jareddm wrote:I'm still sticking with the Tarot interpretation. It's predicted everything else correct about the primarchs, I trust its predictions of the missing primarchs as well.

I will definitely read that tomorrow. Sounds like the best angle of attack on this problem so far.

A few things we do know-
-They are NOT the Legion of the Damned. We know exactly who the LotD is, the Fire Hawks.
-Both lost legions were around, even for an incredibly short amount of time, during the Great Crusade
-Both of their fates are known. Just not to us. One is described as 'lost' and the other 'forgotten'
-It has been made very clear in the HH books that neither legion 'escaped' or is missing.

Like I said, their fates are known. And while not outright confirmed, it's pretty heavily hinted that Russ was involved in killing/destroying on of them (the Lost).
I personally postulate that something was wrong with the other primarch(the Forgotten), like he didn't develop fully, or was mutated by chaos during his magical trip through the warp as a baby, and when the Emperor found him put the poor kid out of his misery and his legion was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

Unlike years before the HH novels, there is now virtually ZERO room to base DIY chapters on the 2nd and 11th Legions.

SickSix wrote:I will definitely read that tomorrow. Sounds like the best angle of attack on this problem so far.

People argue against it that the author was applying existing information about the primarchs to the tarot, rather than the other way around. While I haven't been able to get in contact with the author, from what I can tell it was written in early 2008 at the latest. So the only HH novels that could've even possibly been involved with its creation beyond the collected visions would have to have been earlier than Legion.

SickSix wrote:Unlike years before the HH novels, there is now virtually ZERO room to base DIY chapters on the 2nd and 11th Legions.

You could always build an early Great Crusade-era army and base them off of the missing legions.

SickSix wrote:

Like I said, their fates are known. And while not outright confirmed, it's pretty heavily hinted that Russ was involved in killing/destroying on of them (the Lost).
I personally postulate that something was wrong with the other primarch(the Forgotten), like he didn't develop fully, or was mutated by chaos during his magical trip through the warp as a baby, and when the Emperor found him put the poor kid out of his misery and his legion was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

.

This was my thoughts as well.The UM were freaking huge with little explanation as to just why.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Like I said, their fates are known. And while not outright confirmed, it's pretty heavily hinted that Russ was involved in killing/destroying on of them (the Lost).
I personally postulate that something was wrong with the other primarch(the Forgotten), like he didn't develop fully, or was mutated by chaos during his magical trip through the warp as a baby, and when the Emperor found him put the poor kid out of his misery and his legion was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

This was my thoughts as well.The UM were freaking huge with little explanation as to just why.

There's actually quite a bit of room for explanation as to why. Two off the top of my head...

1) They had incredibly stable gene-seed. They still do. It's why there's so dang many Ultramarines Successor Chapters.
2) The Emperor intended for them to operate with little in the way of support from the other Astartes during The Great Crusade. Hence: larger numbers.

There's, of course, the Word Bearers making snide remarks about the Ultramarines only being so large because of them taking the leftovers from the Forgotten Legion but Lorgar smacked that talk down fairly fast as being petulant noise.

My idea is this.
They did something bad near the beggining of the crusade, the emporer banished them. Then he striked alll record of them as punishment.
This would have happened to horus and his followers BUT he died before it could take place.
So the chaos should be considered lost but they arent because the BIG E is busy.

That' doesn't completely make sense. But following that logic, they might have been expunged because two legions were easier to do it to. Have Russ and his maniacs take care of them, swear the Astartes to silence, kill any non-Astartes witnesses.

With Horus, the scale was too grand, and reached Terra. It's not really possible to expunge them and kill any witnesses that aren't Astartes since, well, you'd be killing too many people (as well as the population of Terra), so they get branded Excommunicate Traitorus instead.

-Loki- wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Decio wrote:I've seen a few people use their imaginations to create the lost primarchs,

'Lost' doesn't necessarily mean destroyed. they could be the first
'lost and damned' (chaos marines) or they could be floundering in the warp
or they could be having a party in a 'secret place (grey knights anyone?)' on Terra

Maybe they're the legion of the damned?
LEGION of the damned.
Seems possible.

The Legion of the Damned have (unfortunately) had their mysterious past revealed. They're the Fire Hawks chapter. Well, ex-Fire Hawks chapter.

I wish GW wouldn't reveal things like that.

And they're Ultramarine Successors?

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

Kanluwen wrote:
There's actually quite a bit of room for explanation as to why. Two off the top of my head...

1) They had incredibly stable gene-seed. They still do. It's why there's so dang many Ultramarines Successor Chapters.
2) The Emperor intended for them to operate with little in the way of support from the other Astartes during The Great Crusade. Hence: larger numbers.

There's, of course, the Word Bearers making snide remarks about the Ultramarines only being so large because of them taking the leftovers from the Forgotten Legion but Lorgar smacked that talk down fairly fast as being petulant noise.

The reason games-workshop gave for this is that the ultramarines were diverted by a large proportion of the word bearers,
leading to them to have had less casualties than the other legions.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

And they're Ultramarine Successors?

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

Well that's what they claim, but the Ultra's aren't buying it.

As far as I know, the only reference to the ultramarines taking the recruits from the missing legions is in the first heretic, and my opinion of the way they put it made the entire thing seem like the two missing legions were shamed. Every other source Iv'e seen has had a different story on what happened to the missing legions.

-Loki- wrote:That' doesn't completely make sense. But following that logic, they might have been expunged because two legions were easier to do it to. Have Russ and his maniacs take care of them, swear the Astartes to silence, kill any non-Astartes witnesses.

With Horus, the scale was too grand, and reached Terra. It's not really possible to expunge them and kill any witnesses that aren't Astartes since, well, you'd be killing too many people (as well as the population of Terra), so they get branded Excommunicate Traitorus instead.

That too, What im saying is basicaly the emperor couldn't get say they where lost.

The Ultramarines were off fighting somewhere else in the galaxy; large numbers left alive.
Then they returned to 'take over' (re-stabilize is what they call it) the Imperium.

I kinda wish the Ultramarines would lose horrendously for once instead of
winning through heroic crap and tactics that could rival Creed's genius.

As for the two lost legions, maybe they were the not-so-friendly type to the Ultras
and were kinda shoved in a corner for a bit like the Iron Warriors.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Like I said, their fates are known. And while not outright confirmed, it's pretty heavily hinted that Russ was involved in killing/destroying on of them (the Lost).
I personally postulate that something was wrong with the other primarch(the Forgotten), like he didn't develop fully, or was mutated by chaos during his magical trip through the warp as a baby, and when the Emperor found him put the poor kid out of his misery and his legion was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

.

This was my thoughts as well.The UM were freaking huge with little explanation as to just why.

There's plenty of justification. It's been part of the fluff since 2nd Edition actually. The Ultramarines were extremely organized and efficient, conquering many worlds and quickly rebuilding them to stable and functional conditions. Thus they had a very large base to draw recruits and supplies from, and they cranked out marines like nobody's business. Their methods of war were also clinically precise, allowing them to take planets with minimal casualties. Greater than average recruitment minus lower than average casualty rate equals more marines than any other legion. That's exactly how the 2nd edition Ultramarine codex described it.

The off-hand remark in First Heretic is pretty obviously (to me anyway) an insulting rumor born out of the Word Bearers' hatred of the Ultramarines. You can take it how you like, but don't say there's no other explanation for the Ultras' size.

-Loki- wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

Decio wrote:I've seen a few people use their imaginations to create the lost primarchs,

'Lost' doesn't necessarily mean destroyed. they could be the first
'lost and damned' (chaos marines) or they could be floundering in the warp
or they could be having a party in a 'secret place (grey knights anyone?)' on Terra

Maybe they're the legion of the damned?
LEGION of the damned.
Seems possible.

The Legion of the Damned have (unfortunately) had their mysterious past revealed. They're the Fire Hawks chapter. Well, ex-Fire Hawks chapter.

I wish GW wouldn't reveal things like that.

oh. Too bad!

If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

I have always been a big fan of the "WFB is on a world somewhere in the 40k galaxy" fluff.

Unfortunately I think, though, that GW has been moving away from that since 2nd (?) or 3rd (?) edition 40k and it is no longer canon (or at least no longer relevant).

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Yeah I'm pretty sure they've specifically come out and retconned that idea, cool as it would be though. If Sigmar were to show up and take control of the Ultras? Pshhh... Might actually play a smurf army then.

Decio wrote:The Ultramarines were off fighting somewhere else in the galaxy; large numbers left alive.
Then they returned to 'take over' (re-stabilize is what they call it) the Imperium.

I kinda wish the Ultramarines would lose horrendously for once instead of
winning through heroic crap and tactics that could rival Creed's genius.

Yeah, sometimes the Ultramarines can come across a bit... Obnoxious...

"Look at me, because I wear blue armour and I'm kinda descended from this Rubberboot Gullywash, that makes me the BEST MARINE EVAR."

Well, they didn't exactly do the superman routine in "Know no fear".



As for the two missing legions, it feels like over the years the blank-spaced mystery around them gets nipped away. I assume they are Space-Elvis, and Space-D.B. Cooper.

The book with the insane priest in fantasy is Liber Chaotica, and bloody good it is too.
I always theorized that the two lost Primarchs were Sigmar and Gilles Le Breton myself...

all we really know is that one:
the space wolves were called on to fight em both, russ says something about it in one of the HH books and 2:
in the third hh book i think it is when horus see's the gene chambers under the himalayas he looks at one of the primarchs and thinks about "what will never be", ragefaces and smashes it.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Like I said, their fates are known. And while not outright confirmed, it's pretty heavily hinted that Russ was involved in killing/destroying on of them (the Lost).
I personally postulate that something was wrong with the other primarch(the Forgotten), like he didn't develop fully, or was mutated by chaos during his magical trip through the warp as a baby, and when the Emperor found him put the poor kid out of his misery and his legion was absorbed by the Ultramarines.

.

This was my thoughts as well.The UM were freaking huge with little explanation as to just why.

Its in the marines codex. It states that macragge game them an incredibly large recruitment base filling the ranks of the legion during the great crusade and even now as a chapter allow them to always have stable numbers. This is also possible due to their incredibly stable Gene Seed.

Thank ya, that I did not know. I do not own that Codex. what i know is from online wikis,novels and the like. Or what I track down.

Spoilers from the HH series

Maybe following the Tarot link earlier in the thread, the High Priestess, the Psyker observer, equal of Magnus but passive in nature. Maybe this one, this observer was driven insane watching the Empyrean and possibly glimpsing the future in the strange time fluxes. This insanity destroyed the observer's mind over time and the Primarch was put to the sword of out of mercy (by Russ). Those Legion astartes were mind wiped and amalgamated into the Ultramarines.

In my personal view, I think this Watchers of the Void would be a good starting point.

So based on the Attributes above I thought of the word "Sentinel" as summing this up. So..

Primarch name= Sentinel = Watcher = VIGIL (in latin).

Primarch VIGIL of the IMPERIAL SENTINELS.

Nice idea, and a way of being Creative with the Pre-heresy stuff. Maybe they are talented in Passive Psyker skills, like the one where you have to re-roll invulnerables or force dome etc,

I posted a theory about the missing two legions a long time ago... and I still find it interesting that 2 plus 11 equals 13, the number of the Ultramarines Legion. I had many other references to support my reasoning (not to mention the opinion of certain members of the Wordbearer legion) but I wont bore anyone with that here. I thought it was cool though.

Eh, so much for my opinion.

Still, nothing has been written about these two Legions other than what has been metioned thus far.

Back in the good ol' days of simplistic fluff to support a miniatures wargame, the missing two legions were just blank slates to support a DIY Legion and fluff. Now, as more and more fluff is written and many of those novels enter the New York Times best sellers list, the fluff will deepen and we may see more and more holes filled in... possibly much to the chagrin of many fans and a dramatic increase in the use of anti-depressants...

mwnciboo wrote:Maybe following the Tarot link earlier in the thread, the High Priestess, the Psyker observer, equal of Magnus but passive in nature. Maybe this one, this observer was driven insane watching the Empyrean and possibly glimpsing the future in the strange time fluxes. This insanity destroyed the observer's mind over time and the Primarch was put to the sword of out of mercy (by Russ). Those Legion astartes were mind wiped and amalgamated into the Ultramarines.

In my personal view, I think this Watchers of the Void would be a good starting point.

So based on the Attributes above I thought of the word "Sentinel" as summing this up. So..

Primarch name= Sentinel = Watcher = VIGIL (in latin).

Primarch VIGIL of the IMPERIAL SENTINELS.

Nice idea, and a way of being Creative with the Pre-heresy stuff. Maybe they are talented in Passive Psyker skills, like the one where you have to re-roll invulnerables or force dome etc,

I like the name Imperial Sentinels. Not huge fan of the name Vigil though. What's interesting is one of the negative traits for the High Priestess is as a tempter of irresistible goals. Yet at the same time, his purpose is described as being able to give people a sense of belonging in the wider sceme of things. In particular, his close relationship with Lorgar is one that may have been hinted at in TFH and makes one wonder at how the loss of the two primarchs could've affected the Heresy.

Okay then VIGILUS or an alternative name based on this viewing or watching in Greek/Latin.

"Angel" = Greek Angelos, Latin Aneglus, Coptic malah.

"The Grigori" from Greek egrgoroi, "The Watchers". So maybe "Grigori"?

Nrljm wrote:Wow wish there was more about these two legions... Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

They've never existed.

In fact, it seems likely that there is actually no existing back story for them at Games Workshop, only a flat rule that says they cannot be talked about, other than indirectly.


Though, originally, Rick Priestley said the intention behind the missing two Legions was that their names were expunged as a reward, not as a punishment. So the two "missing" legions were actually still in existence, only under a different name to cover for the fact that they initially sided with Horus. It is important to note that that back story is effectively impossible with the modern fiction, and Priestley's statement predates most of the established fluff for the Horus Heresy, making it useless.


The bottom line is, there are no 2nd and 11th Legions. They exist merely as a line that says they don't exist anymore. That's why all the HH books have somewhat conflicting information on them, or in some cases, characters making baseless speculations.

I think that they would of been executed by Leman Russ and the Space Wolves then removed from the records.

They were likely removed to allow players to create their own legions...

IMO, GW threw them in to create mystery and speculation, maybe as a future opening for selling a new range of models, though that's just personal opinion withiouut much in the way of proof.

Nrljm wrote:What exactly do we know about the two legions that are deleted from the IoM records?

I mean did they have their own primarch? Anyone hve any info on why they were deleted from IOM records and what not?

Wow , I just remembered something. During the first horus heresy book ( I believe) the primarch of the XI legion came to light during a dream induced by the forces of chaos for Horus. To remember exactly what was said I looked it up. "He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it ... feeling the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass." Hm... Interesting, yes?

I think that's the Primarch that was killed in his pod when scattered by the Chaos Gods.

In the deathwatch there are certain members know as black shields, who never reveal their origin or chapter, think its possible some of the old legions still are around to take up these titles?

Wild wrote:In the deathwatch there are certain members know as black shields, who never reveal their origin or chapter, think its possible some of the old legions still are around to take up these titles?

Not really. Those are loyalist marines that were expelled from their chapters (Black Templars abhor psychers, as an example) or are on a personal quest for pentance or similar reasons.

During the HH, there are no surviving members of the lost legions. Why would there be 10k years later?

I guess a part of me is really hoping for the angry marines to be an actual legion too lol.

Wild wrote:I guess a part of me is really hoping for the angry marines to be an actual legion too lol.

makes sense, they were so aggressive they were uncontrollable, and destroyed like a rogue/ feral dog.

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Do you have evidence of this? very interesting

Nrljm wrote:What exactly do we know about the two legions that are deleted from the IoM records?

I mean did they have their own primarch? Anyone hve any info on why they were deleted from IOM records and what not?

As of now we know a little short of nothing about them. But there is the fact the Emperor had 20 sons so then they must be some place still in space possibly on some feral or feudal world but anything about the legions or there respective primarchs nada.

GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

riverhawks32 wrote:GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

Um, NO. Where have you been for the last couple years? The new HH books have removed all possibility of making DIY chapters off of the the II and XI legions.


It would help if some of you actually read the rest of the posts so you don't repeat refuted statements/arguments.

There's a lot of vague information and speculation on the II and XI Legions in this thread.

If anyone is actually up to date with the series, they'll know that they were described as "gone" and "beyond our reach", respectively.

Russ and his Legion were hinted to have been unleashed on one before the events of A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, and it was also suggested that "Guilleman's ranks were bolstered as a result".

Miraclefish wrote: and it was also suggested that "Guilleman's ranks were bolstered as a result".

This was also shot down by ADB as just being a rumor the Word Bearers came up with to try and explain how The Ultramarine legion could've gotten so big, so fast. It is not what happened to the missing legions.

The Lightning Tower also mentions them, when Rogal Dorn and says to Malcador he wishes they were here to help against Horus. Malcador says "Don't even think it" (I para-phrase it but thats it broad brush)

Right but, beyond hints and vague information, the two legions will never be flushed out...I mean I can't see GW ever telling us about them in detail such as Primarchs,fighting style, why they were expunged etc. Just look at how the plot has been forwarded...not much.

riverhawks32 wrote:Right but, beyond hints and vague information, the two legions will never be flushed out...I mean I can't see GW ever telling us about them in detail such as Primarchs,fighting style, why they were expunged etc. Just look at how the plot has been forwarded...not much.

Don't be so sure. What happened to the Dark Angels deep dark secret?

I am hopeful that 6th edition may surprise a lot of people. I think GW might surprise a lot of the 'fluff advancement' naysayers. But I don't expect much.

I would like the hints and insinuating about the II and XI to continue in the HH books, but I hope they never come right out and say it.

I know that no one believes that the two missing legions leave space for DIY....but I do as GW is completely money oriented and that is the perfect scape goat for them to keep you guessing and buying *gasp* space marines.

One primarch may possibly be named Rubinek

Je suis2 au hazard wrote:One primarch may possibly be named Rubinek

Myth Busted= http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=190503

Brother Thomas wrote:

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Do you have evidence of this? very interesting

This is very, very, very old out of date fluff before GW established actual canon universal laws to their game systems. It used to be rumoured that sigmar was a primarch, as they used a similar entrance to that of the primarches (fell from the sky), although this was a back addition as WFB predates 40K. However after GW stabilised their games, due to wanting to be a larger company they have completely seperated the two systems.

This theory would also be debunked by the new Horus Heresy fluff which tells us that the other primarches have at least met and know of the missing two. If the above theory were true the Emperor would have destroyed the fantasy world completely due to it being corrupted.

SickSix wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

Um, NO. Where have you been for the last couple years? The new HH books have removed all possibility of making DIY chapters off of the the II and XI legions.


It would help if some of you actually read the rest of the posts so you don't repeat refuted statements/arguments.

THANK YOU

I make the second post explaining a bunch of stuff about them and 4 post later people are posting information that is wrong and I even said in my post that the information is wrong dont post it yet they do it anyways

Galdos wrote:

SickSix wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

Um, NO. Where have you been for the last couple years? The new HH books have removed all possibility of making DIY chapters off of the the II and XI legions.


It would help if some of you actually read the rest of the posts so you don't repeat refuted statements/arguments.

THANK YOU

I make the second post explaining a bunch of stuff about them and 4 post later people are posting information that is wrong and I even said in my post that the information is wrong dont post it yet they do it anyways

There is also the fact that it makes no logical sense anyway, the fact that the two legions were expunged would make making a fluff workable current legion impossible if it were loyal and rediculous if it were chaos (why would the chaos legions keep their existance quite). The real reason they were creared expunged is thst they are a story device.

Nrljm wrote:Wow wish there was more about these two legions... Is there Any info on these two primarchs that were removed?

You do realise that they're only interesting because they're unknown, right?

Brother Thomas wrote:

Skal098 wrote:If you really delve into the fluff of warhammer fantasy, the human empire in that had one of the missing primarchs. Thats how they made such a huge empire, it was under his guidance. The world in warhammer fantasy is caught in a warp storm in 40k, they did this fluff piece where a priest went insane and wrote a book, inside it there was a chaos space marine.

Do you have evidence of this? very interesting

It was never more than a fan theory, based upon some vague inferences from Sigmar's backstory.

GreatGunz wrote:Maybe they're the legion of the damned?
LEGION of the damned.
Seems possible.

At the time the Legion of the Damned first appeared in the fluff, the Space Marines were still called the Legiones Astartes, the whole business of the second founding and the legion/chapter distinction hadn't yet been written. So no, it hints nothing.

riverhawks32 wrote:GW is set on not flushing them out purely for people to make their own chapters/legions. So really there is no reason to speculate..

Back when the missing legions first appeared in the fluff (Epic Space Marine, 1989) it had not been established that there were only twenty legions, and only about fifteen had even been named, so no, there was never a need for this.

English Assassin wrote:You do realise that they're only interesting because they're unknown, right?

Quite right. It makes me sad every time a little of the mystery of the 40K universe is removed. That unknown quantity, that lack of understanding was a substantial part of what made the universe what it was for me, when I first got into it. The answers that have come out have never been as interesting as the mysteries.

For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.


Edit: Also, if you are unaware of the origin of the LotD but love the mystery do not click on the below spoiler. But I do have to tell you that they are not the lost legions.

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

Whaaat? Could you supply said poem?

I can.

http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a_217.pdf

It was written by the poet Lionel Johnson (Get it?). it's about his secret repression of his homosexual urges.

shrike wrote:IMO, GW threw them in to create mystery and speculation

Bingo.

Every single time someone asks this, this is the reason they give. It's NOT so you can fanwank out one of your own.

Platuan4th wrote:

shrike wrote:IMO, GW threw them in to create mystery and speculation

Bingo.

Every single time someone asks this, this is the reason they give. It's NOT so you can fanwank out one of your own.

I thought I remembered an interview where one of the authors said it WAS originally for the fanwankery, but they have kept it for the secrecy.

I'll look for it, no guarantees.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

No, clearly I didn't realize and wow, that is... Lame? It's just pretty lame all around.

SickSix wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

No, clearly I didn't realize and wow, that is... Lame? It's just pretty lame all around.

Rogue Trader-era comedy hasn't aged very well.

jareddm wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

No, clearly I didn't realize and wow, that is... Lame? It's just pretty lame all around.

Rogue Trader-era comedy hasn't aged very well.

Don't worry, the "original secret was homosexuality" business is itself fan myth - as, for that matter, is the notion that there was ever an actual mystery. The Dark Angels' fluff never included a "dark secret" until Codex: Angels of Death (for 2nd Ed), which both established its existence and immediately gave away all the details of Luthor and the Fallen.

Well, Lionel Johnson was a poet who composed "Dark Angel", a poem wherein vents his angst and Catholic guilt over his repressed homosexuality. The Dark Angel in this case, with all of its accompanying "aching lust" and "flames of evil ecstasy", is theorized by some critics to be one of several poems that rail against Oscar Wilde, who Lionel was all mad at because Oscar was banging Lionel's cousin.

Anyway, the actual 40K "dark secret" is that half of them turned against the Imperium/Johnson. It never was "removed", totally or otherwise. It's still very much a part of the gloomy bunch.

jareddm wrote:Okay, I'm putting this up because I find it extremely well written, but I must stress it as entirely fan-made and unofficial. That said, it's been extremely accurate in the information it provides considering how long ago it was written.

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html

It matches up each of the primarchs with one of the major arcana of the Tarot. It then uses these to extrapolate to the two missing primarchs to guess at what their personalities and interactions with other primarchs may have been. If you're interested, the missing primarchs are described under the High Priestess and Fortune.

I use this for my own personal headcanon considering it's accuracy is almost scary, but again, it's not official.

This is very cool. I too will be looking to this for all my unanswered lost Primarch needs.

SickSix wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

SickSix wrote:For me, the total removal of the 'Deep Dark Secret' of the Dark Angels has pretty much destroyed any interest I had in them. I love some of their models, but I don't think I would ever use their models as DA or DA successors.

You do realise it was originally a joke from when GW wasn't as serious about their fluff.
The original secret was that they were gay. It's all from some poem.

No, clearly I didn't realize and wow, that is... Lame? It's just pretty lame all around.

I don't think there's any veracity to the story, nor was there ever a hidden "dark secret" since the back story to the Dark Angels dates back to the 2nd Edition Codex released in 1996, but the "Some Poem" is "The Dark Angel" by Lionel Johnson. And Johnson was believed to be gay.

Medium of Death wrote:

jareddm wrote:Okay, I'm putting this up because I find it extremely well written, but I must stress it as entirely fan-made and unofficial. That said, it's been extremely accurate in the information it provides considering how long ago it was written.

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/I.html

It matches up each of the primarchs with one of the major arcana of the Tarot. It then uses these to extrapolate to the two missing primarchs to guess at what their personalities and interactions with other primarchs may have been. If you're interested, the missing primarchs are described under the High Priestess and Fortune.

I use this for my own personal headcanon considering it's accuracy is almost scary, but again, it's not official.

This is very cool. I too will be looking to this for all my unanswered lost Primarch needs.

Glad you like it. I found it years ago. It's funny how Russ is sometimes portrayed as sort of a party animal, when it might be that Fortune was the real party animal of the primarchs. I picture him sort of like the Sinbad of the Emperor's sons.

I'm currently reading A Thousand Sons, and there is a reference to the lost legions in there. Its on page 430, it is when the Thousand Sons are trying to learn more about Horus turning. Lord Ahriman is using the remembrancer Kallista to see the future, and she says this before dying.

"It's to late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne... no, the blood! The Ravens I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! A brother betrayed a brother murdered."

IMO, sounds like one is betrayed and the other primarch is murdered, most likely by Russ, like everyone is thinking. My other thought is one of the Lost Legions is actually the Blood Ravens. I found this info about the Blood Ravens -

The precise Founding in which the Blood Ravens were created is unknown; their own chapter histories only begin in early M37, though other Imperial records contain some small references to the Chapter proving their existence before then. It is important to note that the Blood Ravens' histories are completely absent before the M37 date; they are not just spotty or fragmentary records. As a result, the Astartes of the Chapter know absolutely nothing about their origins, including having no knowledge of their primogenitor legion or primarch. - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Ravens#Founding

Could be, they are deleted from the record and after so many millennium the Imperium brings them back as a Chapter. Just a theory.

No I don't think this is the case, though I like your reasoning and think that it is an unlikely possibility. I believe the Blood Ravens come from the 1k sons, hence their high number of psykers. Kallista may have been seeing the future and the past at the same time.

I can't believe anyone hasn't covered this yet but

http://sonsoftaurus.blogspot.com/2010/11/secrets-of-lost-space-marine-legions.html

This covers what happened to the two lost legions and where they went. Enjoy

Hehe, actually it wasn't the Imperial Bureaucracy it was when GW moved premises in Nottingham. Some young intern/YTS didn't know his Roman 2 from his Arabic 11, but otherwise spot on.

very fun thread so far. I've always thought these legions were there to lend an air of mystery and expectation of things that could come/or were.

Now the tarot thing got me thinking of stuff too. Well anyways, keep up the good work folks, I love these obscure references. Frankly I don't believe the dead in pod idea, it seems too easy somehow to make sense

Oh, and from The First Heretic, Lorgar was close to both of them too, as he talks about how he missed them and how he wanted to talk to both of them again.

Wild wrote:I guess a part of me is really hoping for the angry marines to be an actual legion too lol.

Would that mean that the other legion is the reasonable marines?