I jumped into to fantasy around the time Tomb Kings were released for 8th Edition, and played Ogres. I got use to their play style then when their 8th edition book came out I had to relearn Ogres. In all I've been very pleased with the change.

However I have heard a lot of complaining from armies that have gotten the 8th edition makeover. So I wanted to know what everyone thinks is the best 8th edition army book released so far?

Define best.

Do you mean easiest to use?

Most damaging potential?

Its really difficult to tell imo.

Honestly, from what I've seen, the 8th ed books all seem pretty balanced against each other.

I voted ogres, just because.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:Honestly, from what I've seen, the 8th ed books all seem pretty balanced against each other.

I voted ogres, just because.

+1. I also feel that besides DoC, WoC, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Skaven, and maybe Dwarves, all the other armies (including the new 8th edition armies ) are very balanced.

What's so bad about LM?

mrfantastical wrote:I got use to their play style then when their 8th edition book came out I had to relearn Ogres. In all I've been very pleased with the change.

How did you have to relearn them?

A few units got added, but other than that they are basically the same army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrfantastical wrote:I also feel that besides DoC, WoC, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Skaven, and maybe Dwarves, all the other armies (including the new 8th edition armies ) are very balanced.

None of those books have be revised in 8th.

I think he knew that, judging by the "including armies released in 8th"
I think he didn't know that he basically called nearly all of the pre-8th ed armies unbalanced

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think he knew that, judging by the "including armies released in 8th"
I think he didn't know that he basically called nearly all of the pre-8th ed armies unbalanced

With the exception of two, he's pretty much spot on.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think he knew that, judging by the "including armies released in 8th"
I think he didn't know that he basically called nearly all of the pre-8th ed armies unbalanced

With the exception of two, he's pretty much spot on.

Never said he was wrong
Though I do agree that LM and Dwarves aren't imbalanced.

DoC, WoC and DE are worse.

LM are not imbalanced? So I guess you like choking on Super Slann and Salamander spam.... Because that is fun


My vote is for Ogres

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think he knew that, judging by the "including armies released in 8th"
I think he didn't know that he basically called nearly all of the pre-8th ed armies unbalanced

It depends on how you define balance.

Wood Elves are not a particularly balanced army but for some reason they are left out of the list.

marielle wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think he knew that, judging by the "including armies released in 8th"
I think he didn't know that he basically called nearly all of the pre-8th ed armies unbalanced

It depends on how you define balance.

Wood Elves are not a particularly balanced army but for some reason they are left out of the list.

Wood elves, and Bretonians need a reboot badly, but they can hold their own against most armies except the broken armies I listed previously. Again that's my opinion.

I think if GW can stick to remaking the broken armies first the game will balance out.

Brets do not need a reboot. Leave our book alone!

Johnny-Crass wrote:Brets do not need a reboot. Leave our book alone!

That's funny.

A lot of people around my Meta are terrified of getting an 8th edition make-over.

Our magic items list is brilliant and we will loose way to much stuff if we go 8th

Ogres!

Im going to go with Tomb Kings, since I find it to be the army I enjoyed playing the most. And because their monsterous cavalry looks bloody amazing

Got to go with VC. They fixed so much that was wrong with the previous book in 8th edition.

People take more than Ghouls as core now. Heck, some people even pay points for zombies now! It's worth taking a combat vampire lord due to it not being game over if your general dies. Variety was increased across the board, with internal balance being pretty good.

I'm a huge fan of their new magic phase though. I never liked the idea of spamming skills, even if it did make their magic phase a little more unique. The new method of having targetted buffs that can be powered up into bubble effects is a great idea.

Great topic, honestly probably go with the majority and say ogres, the addition of Mourfang and Ironblasters was huge as was cheap redirectors in the Sabretusks, their magic became a lot better too, lets not forget the stupid restrictions were dropped such as Only a Tyrant or Bruiser can be your general and the whole gotta have a unit of gnoblar per scraplauncher and unit of bulls per unit of gnoblar. Leadbelchers went from crap to quite good. Tomb Kings however went from garbage to pretty solid, the addition of knights, sphinx and titan alone has really helped them out and diversified their competitive lists. However I think you forgot one army, Beastmen, they came out in late 7th but were obviously built with 8th edition in mind, BSB rerolls and primal fury being Ld based means at Ld10 they fail less then 5% of the time, with big block of infantry you really can't beat their hordes of Bestigor and Gor toe-to-toe and point-for-point with almost guaranteed hatred, buffs that are easier to get off in lore of beasts, power dice generation from the Herdstone, cheap chaff in raiders and good chaff in razorgor and harpies, Beastmen are very strong and constantly over looked.

mrfantastical wrote:

marielle wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think he knew that, judging by the "including armies released in 8th"
I think he didn't know that he basically called nearly all of the pre-8th ed armies unbalanced

It depends on how you define balance.

Wood Elves are not a particularly balanced army but for some reason they are left out of the list.

Wood elves, and Bretonians need a reboot badly, but they can hold their own against most armies except the broken armies I listed previously. Again that's my opinion.

I think if GW can stick to remaking the broken armies first the game will balance out.

Ah I see, you aren't talking about balance, you are talking about 'competativeness'... gotcha....

I think VC is the best armybook, from flat out writing to variety of units, from fixing old problems to providing new possibilities, from updating bloodline powers in meaningful ways to giving a selection of limited yet useful magic items. Mostly, because it ends up with not only strong armies but a variety of builds. With VC GW finally got the hardback 8th edition armybook right.

The ogre book is solid, but I feel like the strength of ogre armies is much more due to 8th edition changes to Monstrous Infantry (and other armies losing multi-wound weapons, etc) and the inclusion of a very few new units in the armybook than anything else. You can actually see the relative weakness of the 8th edition book itself when you look at ogre armies and they all, for the most part, look disappointingly similar.

(Lack of variety in army builds is perhaps the best marker of how bad the DoC & WoC books are, by the by.)

- Salvage

I remember the last edition of Orcs and Goblins... That still haunts me. Animosity happening all the time and almost every single unit was overpriced.

With that said, I think the 8th edition did a great job with Orcs and Goblins.

NEW 8th armies I think goes like this:

Ogres
[small gap]
OnG / VC / Empire
[small gap]
TK

Of the other armies that exist, I think the big stand-out is WoC who are on top of Ogres. They just simply have access to everything.

The other armies often have one-tricks that can put them over other armies like Teclis. But I don't consider that the definition of the entire army.

Tomb Kings are very fun and I think they are really balanced.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I think he knew that, judging by the "including armies released in 8th"
I think he didn't know that he basically called nearly all of the pre-8th ed armies unbalanced

With the exception of two, he's pretty much spot on.

Never said he was wrong
Though I do agree that LM and Dwarves aren't imbalanced.

he meant LM and Dwarfs are imbalanced. Whether he meant competitiveness or unit variety/options or whatever, I greatly disagree w/ Dwarfs...

As for the poll, I voted VC as "best".

Johnny-Crass wrote:LM are not imbalanced? So I guess you like choking on Super Slann and Salamander spam.... Because that is fun

As an LM player i can tell ya that sallamanders are imballanced, like vendetta imbalanced (i play IG too), but i do not agree for the hipnotoad, if a model costs one quarter of your army points you damn better believe he's gonna be powerfull.

He is imbalanced when going against a army that needs its magic phase and he is making me chuck my 6's. My hatred for the cold blooded boys in the south is never ending

That power does have a max range you know.
No offence to you'r skill but many of my opponents seem quite capable of working around that regularly he is only M4 after all.

It has a range of 24" right? And I run Lore Of Death and Beasts so magic is fairly in your grill for me

Oh i'm sorry, a death mage user complaining about not being able to IF cuz that is so much fun for EVERYONE.

I need my soulblight!

So get within 24" of you'r target but not the frog seems to work for everyone else. Even if he is in the target unit you can still do that.

Maybe. I only play Lizzies at tournaments and my record against them is 1 win 6 loss. I hate that book with all my heart. One time I played lizards all three games... Got dead last.

Anywho back on topic I think EMpire needs more playtesting before it is on the voting list

WAAC players will ruin you'r fun no matter what they play so stop picking on ma army

Johnny-Crass wrote:.

Anywho back on topic I think EMpire needs more playtesting before it is on the voting list

I agree. Maybe I'll have to ask this question again in a few months to see if attitudes changed any.

I just noticed that every 8th Ed Army Book is 96 pages except for O&G (the initial 8th Ed one). Wonder if that's a policy now or something...

HoverBoy wrote:WAAC players will ruin you'r fun no matter what they play so stop picking on ma army

I just hate cupped hands with a passion.

Never used 'em

HoverBoy wrote:Never used 'em

I have. They are hilarious.

I would have to say the new ogres are the best improvement over its old counterpart. Great list of options that are mostly viable. Lots of flavor and variety in the army that suits their character.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Never used 'em

I have. They are hilarious.

Oh yeah, great for trolling TK and VC players.

"Oh look, I have a miscast. Now your hierophant/general has it. And he rolled snake eyes for the effect. Bye bye."

What can I say? I'm kinda evil.

Also, I get to roll the miscast before I use it.

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:What can I say? I'm kinda evil.

Also, I get to roll the miscast before I use it.

Oh really? I thought you shifted it before resolving the miscast.
Huh, I should really reread the arcane items section in my LM army book. Its a bit neglected methinks.

It's in the FAQ. Its fun, as there are one or two results that slann can take, allowing you to save it for the really bad results.

Only if you have throne up too

Well does throne counter Cupped as you ignore it on a 2+ or since you choose the stacking you bounce it first?

The FAQ says – the player who's turn it is decides the sequence (insert evil laughter).

Stupid Lizard book

More like stupid FAQ before it was quite clear thrones happens before rolling the miscast hands after. So you could never choose.
But noooo, the guys at GW just got up one morning and thought hey WoC and Skaven have damaging spells that can be cast into combat lets give another old book some stupid uberpower it was never intended to have, HERP DERP!!!1!

I don't really see how the Skaven book is OVERpowered. Sure, they're powerful, but playing them is like riding a 2 wheeler for the first time, you're gonna fall a couple times. They're not some giant tri-wheeled hog with 4 different machine guns, wheels made out of razor blades, and an exhaust pipe that shoots fire.

I didn't say that but i do say casting 13th into combat is way wrong.

HoverBoy wrote:I didn't say that but i do say casting 13th into combat is way wrong.

Not as bad as miscasting, altering the results and putting the worst result on my General.

Which is not how it was mean't to be for either army IMO.

LordTyphus wrote:I don't really see how the Skaven book is OVERpowered. Sure, they're powerful, but playing them is like riding a 2 wheeler for the first time, you're gonna fall a couple times. They're not some giant tri-wheeled hog with 4 different machine guns, wheels made out of razor blades, and an exhaust pipe that shoots fire.

Considering they used to be worse in 7th (All hits with the ratling gun autohit *shiver*)

Not to mention they have the cheapest, most effective horde unit in the game, one of the most powerful monsters ingame, not to mention a vast number of artillery that can provide a skaven gunline, one of the most boring armies to face. So not only is it a painful fight, it's likely to be very boring.

LordTyphus wrote:I don't really see how the Skaven book is OVERpowered. Sure, they're powerful, but playing them is like riding a 2 wheeler for the first time, you're gonna fall a couple times. They're not some giant tri-wheeled hog with 4 different machine guns, wheels made out of razor blades, and an exhaust pipe that shoots fire.

They do have that-the doom wheel. And if you don't think they aren't too powerful, you haven't faced someone running a bell with seer, skalm, an engineer with a doom rocket (use math, it's busted and it works), a Hellpit and two Doomwheels, plaguemonks with a priest/furnace, censor bearers, and hordes of clanrats. I have a friend who runs that list and he wins 99% of the time with it. He's done tournaments too-he takes first or second at every tournament he goes to. Rats are sick. A new player, knowing just the rules, should be able to win with that list. Not many armies can say the same.

LordTyphus wrote:They're not some giant tri-wheeled hog with 4 different machine guns, wheels made out of razor blades, and an exhaust pipe that shoots fire.

Perhaps not, but then what is?

marielle wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:They're not some giant tri-wheeled hog with 4 different machine guns, wheels made out of razor blades, and an exhaust pipe that shoots fire.

Perhaps not, but then what is?

Doomwheel?

Johnny-Crass wrote:

marielle wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:They're not some giant tri-wheeled hog with 4 different machine guns, wheels made out of razor blades, and an exhaust pipe that shoots fire.

Perhaps not, but then what is?

Doomwheel?

Yeah, they literally have what LordTyphus described.

Ok, my analogies get worse and worse as the night progress, I'll admit that.

But when playing with or against a Skaven army and you're/they're not being a "TFG" it tends to be pretty fun, a lot of Skaven units are a gamble (although some are less of one than others) and result in causalities on both sides.

But my opinion doesn't really matter, I play them which means I have a natural bias towards them and I'm not the most skilled player (nor have I played a game in more than a year) so my grasp towards the competitive field is limited

My analogy was ment more to convey the point of " (Unless it's a win at all costs army) it's not autowin, most your rolls are leaps of faith. If a skaven player rolls well after the game your mind will be filled with thoughts of how OP they are, if they roll badly you're gonna have a hard time not laughing your ass off as you wipe the floor with them"

Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

Don't worry. Soon people will start hating WoC soon.

rockerbikie wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

Don't worry. Soon people will start hating WoC soon.

Eveyone already hates WOC... Even WOC players hate WOC

It's true a local WoC player is switching to ogres just so he can be more tactical.

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

I think Liz are 95% fine. Their magic item list will be reimagined. And maybe a few slann abilities will be shifted/changed. And if you're lucky, their huge list of special characters won't be so horrible in return.

But yeah, WoC is silly face and needs to be redone. And when I say that, it's still not the discrepancy of 7th edition. You don't see WoC on the table and go, oh, instant win for them. I think that's an achievement of 8th. The stuff that people can complain about are also the great equalizers, such as mega blocks of cheap infantry and uber spells.

DukeRustfield wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

I think Liz are 95% fine. Their magic item list will be reimagined. And maybe a few slann abilities will be shifted/changed. And if you're lucky, their huge list of special characters won't be so horrible in return.

But yeah, WoC is silly face and needs to be redone. And when I say that, it's still not the discrepancy of 7th edition. You don't see WoC on the table and go, oh, instant win for them. I think that's an achievement of 8th. The stuff that people can complain about are also the great equalizers, such as mega blocks of cheap infantry and uber spells.

This is what I think will happen to LM in the next army book

- Magic List reduced

-TG improved

-Sallies nerfed

-Razzies improved

-Stegs nerfed even harder and some bigger beastie will be introduced...though I think they may have already done the former.

-Fast Cav (maybe we'll see horned ones!)

-????????

-PROFIT!

I predict the return of the thunderlizard.

Carnasour hunting packs say what?

HoverBoy wrote:I predict the return of the thunderlizard.

Oh that would be awesome! Lizzies need bigger monsters. I mean, they are meant to live in a continent filled with monsters, dammit!
I think the EoG used to be an a monster called an arcanodon. Maybe a return of that?

EDIT : LOL at Carnosaur hunting packs. Though I would like to a plastic carny kit...

HoverBoy wrote:I didn't say that but i do say casting 13th into combat is way wrong.

My Ogres love it when they try that.... the gnoblars not so much

What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

LordTyphus wrote:What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

Marauders way too cheap, some items way too cheap, the chosenstar setup way too stupid. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Johnny-Crass wrote:Carnasour hunting packs say what?

If they added a Carnosaur Monstrous Cavalry unit I'd start Lizardmen.

That would be one badass looking unit.

HoverBoy wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

Marauders way too cheap, some items way too cheap, the chosenstar setup way too stupid. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Oh, ok, I thought it had to do something with 8th ed. breaking them negatively, not flaws within the book itself.

-Loki- wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Carnasour hunting packs say what?

If they added a Carnosaur Monstrous Cavalry unit I'd start Lizardmen.

That would be one badass looking unit.

But GW would have it that you have to buy each individual model. In finecast.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Carnasour hunting packs say what?

If they added a Carnosaur Monstrous Cavalry unit I'd start Lizardmen.

That would be one badass looking unit.

But GW would have it that you have to buy each individual model. In finecast.

Is that supposed to discourage me?

Being able to field units of Allosaurs being ridden by Velociraptors with spears and shields would be too awesome.

-Loki- wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Johnny-Crass wrote:Carnasour hunting packs say what?

If they added a Carnosaur Monstrous Cavalry unit I'd start Lizardmen.

That would be one badass looking unit.

But GW would have it that you have to buy each individual model. In finecast.

Is that supposed to discourage me?

Being able to field units of Allosaurs being ridden by Velociraptors with spears and shields would be too awesome.

Just saying, GW won't release something awesome without there being some sort of flaw.
But yeah, carnosaur cavalry would be crazy awesome.

HoverBoy wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

Marauders way too cheap, some items way too cheap, the chosenstar setup way too stupid. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

The thing about Warriors that people often forget is that they have a lot of hard counters that really ruin their day. Their armies tend to run a few directions and all of them have some terrible matchups. In my opinion, it's a pretty balanced book. Everything is good but you pay for what you get, with the exception of Marauders. In that one case you get a little more than what you paid for. If you simply updated their Lores and added in 8th edition casting rules and types and removed the little BRB blurb about previous edition spells containing all relevant casting parameters they'd be golden.

Someone mentioned a Slaan had better be awesome for his points. I feel the same way about the Chosen-star that I don't even run. It's probably half your army when you include the requisite Terror Banners and Warshrines, and they die to 13th/LoShadow/LoMetal as well as any other WoC unit.

Our magic items are no worse than anyone else's old books items. We have some neat Arcane items, but so does everyone else. The one everyone complains about is Infernal Puppet. It's good, but remember that you already have a miscast coming. This just alters the result by d3. Not even UP TO d3, just whatever the result is. So on 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12, it's a non issue because you won't be altering those results unless it's your own miscast. Make it 50 points and keep it, but Cupped Hands / Hell Heart / Becalming etc aren't exactly well thought out either.

I'm far more inclined to get riled up about High Elves than anyone else TBH.

Thunderfrog wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:

LordTyphus wrote:What are the current issues is 8th for WoC? I remember back in my old gaming group during 7th the WoC player pretty much obliterated everyone just by moving forward.

Marauders way too cheap, some items way too cheap, the chosenstar setup way too stupid. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.

The thing about Warriors that people often forget is that they have a lot of hard counters that really ruin their day. Their armies tend to run a few directions and all of them have some terrible matchups. In my opinion, it's a pretty balanced book. Everything is good but you pay for what you get, with the exception of Marauders. In that one case you get a little more than what you paid for. If you simply updated their Lores and added in 8th edition casting rules and types and removed the little BRB blurb about previous edition spells containing all relevant casting parameters they'd be golden.

Someone mentioned a Slaan had better be awesome for his points. I feel the same way about the Chosen-star that I don't even run. It's probably half your army when you include the requisite Terror Banners and Warshrines, and they die to 13th/LoShadow/LoMetal as well as any other WoC unit.

Our magic items are no worse than anyone else's old books items. We have some neat Arcane items, but so does everyone else. The one everyone complains about is Infernal Puppet. It's good, but remember that you already have a miscast coming. This just alters the result by d3. Not even UP TO d3, just whatever the result is. So on 1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12, it's a non issue because you won't be altering those results unless it's your own miscast. Make it 50 points and keep it, but Cupped Hands / Hell Heart / Becalming etc aren't exactly well thought out either.

I'm far more inclined to get riled up about High Elves than anyone else TBH.

Read the Infernal Puppet entry again-it IS up to D3. It says so specifically in the entry. Also, it works on ALL players-you can affect your enemies miscasts too, thus making them worse. It's good. Broken? No, but very good and fair at 35pts, maybe a tad undercosted (40, perhaps).

Someone mentioned a Slaan had better be awesome for his points. I feel the same way about the Chosen-star that I don't even run. It's probably half your army when you include the requisite Terror Banners and Warshrines, and they die to 13th/LoShadow/LoMetal as well as any other WoC unit.

They don't really die so much to LoShadow due to it's Initiative 5, it's far better than the ogre gutstar, can be buffed even stronger, and unlike ogre's doesn't die so easily to initative save or die! Spells, along with decent ward saves, and a warshrine is cheap enough that everyone takes two where I am.

Not to mention unlike the ogre gutstar, who's main way of being buffed is magic, you only need to roll once, and than roll twice more and get better stuff, that stacks.

Johnny-Crass wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

Don't worry. Soon people will start hating WoC soon.

Eveyone already hates WOC... Even WOC players hate WOC

I quite like WoC. My favourite game I played was against WoC...

Dark Elves vs Chaos. At the end of the game both our armies were decimated. Best draw ever.


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Thunderfrog wrote:I'm far more inclined to get riled up about High Elves than anyone else TBH.

As a Dark Elf player, I agree. With the High Elf ASF special rule they basically get the Dark Elves Eternal Hatred, but better. They get to hit first (even with great weapons) AND re-roll as long as their initiative is equal to or greater than their opponents which for Elves is pretty much always the case.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Someone mentioned a Slaan had better be awesome for his points. I feel the same way about the Chosen-star that I don't even run. It's probably half your army when you include the requisite Terror Banners and Warshrines, and they die to 13th/LoShadow/LoMetal as well as any other WoC unit.

They don't really die so much to LoShadow due to it's Initiative 5, it's far better than the ogre gutstar, can be buffed even stronger, and unlike ogre's doesn't die so easily to initative save or die! Spells, along with decent ward saves, and a warshrine is cheap enough that everyone takes two where I am.

Not to mention unlike the ogre gutstar, who's main way of being buffed is magic, you only need to roll once, and than roll twice more and get better stuff, that stacks.

For 305 points I get 15 models, 15 wounds, 15 attacks ( 10 in the front and 5 supporting ).

For 305 points Ogres get 7 models, 21 wounds, 24 attacks including stomps.

Yes I know.. there's a warshrine. So lets add that in for both sides? 150 points for a Tizz marked shrine. No reason to take any other.

That brings us to this..

For 455 points I get 15 models, 15 wounds, 15 attacks ( 10 in the front and 5 supporting ), Warshrine rules, and the shrine itself.

For 455 points Ogres now get 10 models ( I went with 430 points for them). Best option for 10 models is a horde, so we have 33 attacks with stomp, possibly Str 6 impact hits, and 30 wounds.

Even i I roll boxcars for my 4+ ward and stubborn, I have to kill Ogres 2 to 1.

At even points, Gutstar horde easily beats out chosen + warshrine. The only way Chosen win is if I get super lucky on the shrine, plus spend extra points on supporting characters and more models. Now I'm at 700 points to your 450. And LoShadow hurts warriors more by dropping their WS and Init than anything else. And there's always the chance of miasma hitting init before casting pit of shades.

Just sayin. Warriors are a balanced book with a few gimicks but a lot of honest builds that counter specific meta's easily. That said, they aren't broke or OP by a long shot.

For 455 points I get 15 models, 15 wounds, 15 attacks ( 10 in the front and 5 supporting ), Warshrine rules, and the shrine itself.

For 455 points Ogres now get 10 models ( I went with 430 points for them). Best option for 10 models is a horde, so we have 33 attacks with stomp, possibly Str 6 impact hits, and 30 wounds.

Even i I roll boxcars for my 4+ ward and stubborn, I have to kill Ogres 2 to 1.

You'll hit on 3's, wounding on 3+ with halbreds and they'll have no save in order to defend themselves, not to mention hitting first, and they'll be striking back at 5+

You also get 25 attacks (2 attacks per front, 1 attack supporting), so you'll likely deal at least 10-12 wounds, killing off 4 of the Ironguts, decreasing the attacks by 12 ,as well as four stomps.

This isn't counting the contribution from the warshrine as well, considering you may gain S6, T5, and some various other things, I'm not really counting fear either, considering how low the chance is.

Also forgot to calculate the warshrines attacks in as well.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

stuff.

You'll hit on 3's, wounding on 3+ with halbreds and they'll have no save in order to defend themselves, not to mention hitting first, and they'll be striking back at 5+

You also get 25 attacks (2 attacks per front, 1 attack supporting), so you'll likely deal at least 10-12 wounds, killing off 4 of the Ironguts, decreasing the attacks by 12 ,as well as four stomps.

This isn't counting the contribution from the warshrine as well, considering you may gain S6, T5, and some various other things, I'm not really counting fear either, considering how low the chance is.

Also forgot to calculate the warshrines attacks in as well.

I don't know where you get 25 attacks. 15 Warriors with ranks of 5 (the best way to handle 15) Is 5 in front (10 attacks) and 5 supporting. And there's also a 1/6th chance I'm going to get stupid or eye closed, which I cant modify with a block of just Chosen with no characters.

Even assuming I maximise and score every hit and every wound I wouldnt kill enough to reduce your stomps at all, since they only come from your front ranks.

Point is that warriors are not overwhelming. They are good, but everything has a balanced cost, and an Ogre star is FAR more effective than a chosen-star..and much less random.

And there's also a 1/6th chance I'm going to get stupid or eye closed, which I cant modify with a block of just Chosen with no characters.

Chosen continue to re-roll any stupid/closed results until they get a better one due to the Chosen of the Dark Gods rule. If you are speaking of the warshine, you can simply use it again the next turn and gain something new.

I don't know where you get 25 attacks.

My mistake, when you said 10 attacks with 5 supporting, I had thought you meant 10 models in the front, 5 in the back for some odd reason.

I wouldnt kill enoug[h to reduce your stomps at all, since they only come from your front ranks.

Why do stomps bother you regardless, you still have a 4+ save against their S4 hits, not counting the ward save after, it is really only the great weapons that will hurt and due to hitting at 5+ they aren't likely to hit much back at all.

Not to mention if one includes the warshrine, it comes with 5 S4 hits with 3++ ward save added onto the combat with ogres.

This is annoying. Here's the mathhammer before we go any further off topic. I'll even be kind to the warriors and assume they get a flank charge with the Warshrine.

This is as outlined above, with 15 Chosen and their Shrine vs 10 Ogres in horde formation. I'm not counting magic, and I'll toss up the Shrine several different ways. I'm also going Tzeentch mark with Halberds.

Initiative 5

Warshrine -

WS 5 - 5 Attacks - 3.3 Hits - 1.6 wounds with 6+ armor save = 1.34 Wounds

Chosen

WS 6 - 15 Attacks - 9.9 hits - 6.6 wounds no save.

Averaging 2 ogres removed @ 7 or 8 wounds?

Initiative Slow

Gutstar

WS 3 - 24 Attacks - 12 hits - 9.96 wounds with 6+ Tzeentch Ward = 8.37 Wounds.

Stomps - 3 Attacks - 1.5 Wounds with 5+ armor save and 6+ Tzeentch Ward = 1 .02 wounds.


Modifiers


Gutstar gets the charge (assuming less than 10 inches) : 2.15 wounds after ward save.

Warriors get +1T: -1.57 Wounds for the Ogres
Warriors get +1S: +2.2 Wounds for the Warriors and maybe -3 attacks and all that comes with that for the ogres.
Warriors get +1At: Same as above, just about. Math numbers are within .10 of each other.
Warriors get +1Ar: Ogres -1.37 wounds
Warriors get #12: Ogres -2.04 wounds.

Warriors most favorable outcome - +1S and getting the charge and flank = winning by .5 to 1.8 wounds. Having lost 7 models to the Ogres 3, Ogres will be steadfast.

Ogres most favorable outcome - Getting the charge and Chosen having either Eye closed, Stupidity, MR 3 or Ld9. Ogres do 11 wounds to Warriors 8. (Not to mention, if Ogres charge then the warshrine wont be contributing to combat.) Ogres have +1 rank minimum, + 1 charge. Wins combat by 5. Warriors must save on a 3. (A 4 if a Chaos Lord is nearbye.)

Now that thats out of the way, maybe we can quit taking aim at my warriors. =)

Point I was trying to make, again, is that warriors are a balanced book. They have advantages sure, but they fairly pay for them as much or more so than any other books. They do not, point for point, win every matchup they come across.


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Why do stomps bother you regardless, you still have a 4+ save against their S4 hits, not counting the ward save after, it is really only the great weapons that will hurt and due to hitting at 5+ they aren't likely to hit much back at all

Chosen have a 4+ armor with halberds. They cant use the shields in CC with a 2 handed weapon.

Chosen are WS 6. Ogres WS3. Ogres still hit on 4's.

Now that thats out of the way, maybe we can quit taking aim at my warriors. =)

Never had a matchup that favorable, but than again I've never faced a chosen stack that wasn't below 500 strong neither with one warshrines and two hellcannons, along with about two to three cheap greatsword khorne hordes backed by two to three sorcerers. Interesting math-hammering there, wish my ogres could get there without the hellcannons beating them down. Or the whole Razor spell, or the fact they can easily eat them with initiative save or die spells, or Infernal gateway, or curse of the leper...

Ever seen an ogre horde die to a S11-12 infernal gateway? It aint pretty.

Point I was trying to make, again, is that warriors are a balanced book. They have advantages sure, but they fairly pay for them as much or more so than any other books. They do not, point for point, win every matchup they come across.

Right-o! Thats why the rest of the book picks up the slack. It's really the combination of the whole that helps considering that the chosens duty is mostly to hold up things that can't effectively break them down and whittle them away.

Though I used the gutstar as a comparison, it was a pretty bad one, the main issue is the combination of factors for WoC, though the mathhammer is quite interesting in that I never knew points to points they would win.

Chosen are WS 6. Ogres WS3. Ogres still hit on 4's.

That explains some of the bad results I was getting to say the least.

Woc isn't balanced. Taking probably the best melee unit in the game, which is the vast "bulk" of what that whole army is about, and comparing them, makes you forget that's simply one tiny element that's in WoC. They got ogres too. And trolls. And dragons. And uber spellcasters. And cheap poundy infantry. And haha you all die spells before anyone in 8th made it fashionable. And useable special characters.

Basically anything that didn't fit directly in the other books was thrown into woc. Not sure how they will nerf it, but I'm pretty positive it will be nerfed some.

Well chosen cause terror so if them ogres fail that fear test...

HoverBoy wrote:Don't take it personally LordTyphus seems that after i defended the LM so valiantly people just decided to whine about something else.

What's the saying bro, you can't wake a man who's pretending to be asleep?

DukeRustfield wrote:Woc isn't balanced. Taking probably the best melee unit in the game, which is the vast "bulk" of what that whole army is about, and comparing them, makes you forget that's simply one tiny element that's in WoC. They got ogres too. And trolls. And dragons. And uber spellcasters. And cheap poundy infantry. And haha you all die spells before anyone in 8th made it fashionable. And useable special characters.

Basically anything that didn't fit directly in the other books was thrown into woc. Not sure how they will nerf it, but I'm pretty positive it will be nerfed some.

The reason most of those are ignored because realistically putting them into a reasonable sized game (lots of reason there) is near impossible. For one the trolls only really work if you take a troll list entirely having small detachments of each thing simply doesn't work. The dragons are a mount for the lord and if I believe so its the most expensive dragon mount out of all of them. If you mean the dragon ogres, there not exactly good given they're awful armour and high points cost again you'll only ever get a small detachment of them often too small to be of much threat and the shaggy for its points is just too liable to death compared to the other larger monsters HPA / Hydra etc.

That's why most people or people in general are comparing to the chosen & warriors because these other bits of awesome aren't commonly seen in chaos competitive lists too often. Most chaos armies I see, my own included consists of about 2 units of warriors, 1 unit of marauders a warshrine and heroes thats generally 2000 or so pts of chaos.

I play about 2500 games.

The WAAC gamer we have (or had, I havn't played in sometime)



But to get back on topic, I've found that while I hate fighting them, tomb kings was pretty good, though not really the best. I wish to play out new empire, but we didn't really have one at the club nearby.

Orcs is good fun

I think what Duke was failing to see is that while the book is very wide and varied, you can only fit narrow margins of it into a single list at any time. Most people forget that.

But I maintain they aren't broke, but balanced. Just because a book has a variety of options (which is what drew me to them) doesnt mean their broke. Options mean choices, which means things are added and things left out. I can't run a Demon Prince, a Warshrine, a lvl 4 Tzeentch, 50 warriors, 50 marauders, 10 ogres, 10 trolls, and everything else in one list.

Again, WoC having options makes them a well written and balanced book, but hardly OTT or OP. They are far more closer to balanced than not.

I have TK's too.. and I greatly miss my old book. I still play it when I can get someone to agree. If only I still had incantations! I really like some of the TK special characters in 8th however, and I think they did the right thing with Khalida, seeing how much they dropped the price of skeleton archers.

Honestly i agree that they're balanced aside from the marauders.
No army can match them for the same points, and some pay times that for far worse.

True. That said, I've tried several times to win with Marauder hordes and I always fail miserably!

I haven't figured out the right support pieces yet.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Define best.

Do you mean easiest to use?

Most damaging potential?

Its really difficult to tell imo.

Well best usually means easiest to win with.

zeekill wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Define best.

Do you mean easiest to use?

Most damaging potential?

Its really difficult to tell imo.

Well best usually means easiest to win with.

So you are asking for the most point and click army that requires hardly any tactical thought then?
Ok, got it.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Define best.

Do you mean easiest to use?

Most damaging potential?

Its really difficult to tell imo.

Well best usually means easiest to win with.

So you are asking for the most point and click army that requires hardly any tactical thought then?
Ok, got it.

well, zeekill isn't the OP

I think what OP was asking for is the best "makeover" - i.e. balanced, was addressed the best, etc.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

zeekill wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Define best.

Do you mean easiest to use?

Most damaging potential?

Its really difficult to tell imo.

Well best usually means easiest to win with.

So you are asking for the most point and click army that requires hardly any tactical thought then?
Ok, got it.

well, zeekill isn't the OP

I think what OP was asking for is the best "makeover" - i.e. balanced, was addressed the best, etc.

Yea don't mistake me for the OP. I was just saying what I thought "best" means

Oh yeah, you have a point
With so many Empire threads flying around, it gets confusing who made what.

rockerbikie wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:WAAC players will ruin you'r fun no matter what they play so stop picking on ma army

I just hate cupped hands with a passion.

I have used Cupped Hands 7 times.

And rolled a "1" EVERY time.

I have never actually seen it work.


Anyway, I voted for VC. They are so much more flexible and usable compared to the old book. They are actually fun to fight now!

Unless my math is wrong.. there's a .0006291456% chance of that happening..

.16 to the 6th?


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Oh wow. You actually said 7 times. Even stranger is every time youve ever seen the item used it's not gone off.

My gamestore must be your cosmic foil, because I've only seen it fail once. ( earlier tonight actually. )