Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).
dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).
an internet cookie for your thoughts?
They keep their homeworld in a state of perpetual poverty and endless tribal warfare to ensure an ample supply of recruits ( unlike, for example, The Ultramarines which have established academies on their homeworlds and no longer have to rely on recruiting savages ).
They are self righteous and short sightened ( no, leaving survivors of an apocalyptic daemonic invasion alive isn't mercyful, it is stupid unless you wish to spread the taint of chaos ) with no regard for the wider implications of their actions. They also have a strange habit of disrespecting the legitimate authorities of the Imperium, the very people who can actualy see the wider picture.
Every professional soldier who would come even close to behaving like the Spacewolves would end his carreer with a court martial.
If you want "good guys" then perhaps the scions of Guillaume, who seem to have a habit of building stable and prosperous societies instead of behaving like spoilt children, might be the most fitting.
The Raven Guard stands in the same corner as the salamanders, helping only those who really needs it (in their eyes obviously) and not striking with the three other chapters and the 4 IG Regiments only to bring this longhunted archtraitor the imperial justice, if they could instead save lives of worthfull humans.
Shadox wrote:The Raven Guard stands in the same corner as the salamanders, helping only those who really needs it (in their eyes obviously) and not striking with the three other chapter and the 4 IG Regiments only to bring this longhunted archtraitor the imperial justice, if they could instead save lives of worthfull humans.
Of course the longhunted archtraitor might, if he escapes, cause the death of entire planets.
The SW still do the white knight things that i have yet to hear about from any other SM faction, they actually try to save the lives of humans. killing the innocent just seems inhuman. it different when they are on the verge o like turning into zombies or something but the just burn away the planet with no regard to the survivors is what tore me away from the GK
"Good Guys" is a subjective point of view. The Imperium isn't necessarily "good." In fact, most/many of the things they do are far from it. Space Wolves are no different. They help innocents and fight for those who can't, but, as stated above, they harm those same innocents to satisfy their own goals.
In my opinion, no they are not the good guys because Warhammer 40k is a continuity devoid of good guys. There are bad guys, there are worse guys, and there are the worst guys. Space Wolves can fit any of those categories. The entire IoM can as well.
If you read "A Thousand Sons" you wouldn't think Space Wolves were good guys. Furthermore, 40k has no faction that is good (though it does have a few good people, usually caught in the crossfire or being used by one faction).
Shadox wrote:The Raven Guard stands in the same corner as the salamanders, helping only those who really needs it (in their eyes obviously) and not striking with the three other chapters and the 4 IG Regiments only to bring this longhunted archtraitor the imperial justice, if they could instead save lives of worthfull humans.
Didnt Shrike Save a Women Who spent days knee deep in chaos? And served a daemon prince? The scout Sgt did save her too(as in not deciding to execute her)
But then again the raven guard torture enemies.
Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.
Everyone thinks they're good. Besides, the Tau are only good relative to the rest of the setting. They're a society run by racist nutcases who utilize mindcontrol and don't flinch at the concept of sending innocents to their death. Except they're slightly more hesitant to kill than everyone else, because war is expensive.
Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.
Everyone thinks they're good. Besides, the Tau are only good relative to the rest of the setting. They're a society run by racist nutcases who utilize mindcontrol and don't flinch at the concept of sending innocents to their death. Except they're slightly more hesitant to kill than everyone else, because war is expensive.
That's purposeful though.. i mean the "everyone thinks their good" part.
Remember how the Tau came into existence in the first place.. And no i don't mean fluff wise, i mean "Marketing Executive over at GW thinking up a new faction,,,,"
They were supposed to be the "good guys" until ye vocal lovers of Grimdark cried foul.
And the response IMHO, is one of the most impressive Marketing ploys GW has ever pulled off.
Anyone notice how the the Codices for the Tau are a chuck full of ambiguity?
Take the fluff-iness of the "Vespid Communion Helms"
Tau Lovers Say: Greater Good Communication Device!
Tau Bashers Say: "OBVIOUS MIND-CONTrOL"
and GW says: "Interpret it anyway you want to.......cause we aren't going to give a direct answer."
And by not giving a direct answer, they partially appease both groups...and collect their money.
Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.
Everyone thinks they're good. Besides, the Tau are only good relative to the rest of the setting. They're a society run by racist nutcases who utilize mindcontrol and don't flinch at the concept of sending innocents to their death. Except they're slightly more hesitant to kill than everyone else, because war is expensive.
That's purposeful though.. i mean the "everyone thinks their good" part.
Remember how the Tau came into existence in the first place.. And no i don't mean fluff wise, i mean "Marketing Executive over at GW thinking up a new faction,,,,"
They were supposed to be the "good guys" until ye vocal lovers of Grimdark cried foul.
And the response IMHO, is one of the most impressive Marketing ploys GW has ever pulled off.
Anyone notice how the the Codices for the Tau are a chuck full of ambiguity?
Take the fluff-iness of the "Vespid Communion Helms"
Tau Lovers Say: Greater Good Communication Device!
Tau Bashers Say: "OBVIOUS MIND-CONTrOL"
and GW says: "Interpret it anyway you want to.......cause we aren't going to give a direct answer."
And by not giving a direct answer, they partially appease both groups...and collect their money.
This is kind of the point of the whole universe, marketing wise.
Take Imperial Guard for example, you could make yourself leader of a brave and dauntless army, devising brilliant tactics to use the strength of a normal man to shatter the plans of your foes, or you can be an uncaring, commissar of a leader, sending hundreds of thousands of men at the enemies strongest point until they drown in a sea of corpses, and then you pin another medal on your chest and call it a day.
The point is, every single faction is left ambiguous enough that you can play it almost any way you want, except for possibly 'nids, but even they have variations.
Alos, space wolves are as good as any other imperial institution, which is to say "Completely terrible and morally reprehensible,"
dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).
an internet cookie for your thoughts?
It really comes down to who is writing them up.
Ever since Grimdark was instituted as the overarching theme of the 40K universe, there has been interesting push/pull between writers attempting to interpret various different factions.
McNeill and Abnett for instance decided to really "dirty up" the Emperor's rep to fit the Grimdarkness theme - a bit of a departure from the ambiguity left in Ian Watson's Jaq Draco encounter with Big E.
CS Goto.....yyyyyeeeaahh.. you know what, let's skip him.
But suffice it to say there's a push toward a "We're all screwed" tendency in Warhammer 40K fiction.
And yet there are also moments of rebellion, where some writers decide to draw the line and say "You know what......NOT HERE."
That's how we end up with folks like Ciaphas Cain (who for all his self-deprecation is a pretty good guy) and Shira Calpurnia (Judge Dredd light > Crazy Space Mehreens!).
Even the WH40K: Space Marine video game decided to feature a very non-blood thirsty heroic protagonist in the form of Captain Titus (good old Mark Strong) - swapping out the established Commander of the 2nd Ultramarines company for him. This guy cares about civilians, interprets the Codex Astartes loosely, etc. etc.
So i guess you can say - for all the Grimdarkness of the Grimdark future - a light still shines for those who would strike that match instead of curse the darkness.
The space wolves are biggoted, anti-authoritarian, drunkards with anger management issues. They aren't some noble oversight committee who 'calls the Imperium on their BS', they are a spoiled teenager who screams 'you can't tell me what to do!' and throws a tantrum.
moom241 wrote:
The point is, every single faction is left ambiguous enough that you can play it almost any way you want, except for possibly 'nids, but even they have variations.
I'm not so sure about that.
Take the responses to this very thread for instance. We have 1 person saying "Hey, Space Wolves.. not so bad aren't they?"
And well.. everyone else is saying "NOO SPACE WOLVES, HYPOCRISY! WE BE GRIMDARK!" etc.etc. Or to put it in a more understandable tone: "the world of 40K is a terrible place where every faction has blood on its hands."
That isn't ambiguity. That's pretty much the New Dogma.
I mean, the only faction that has essentially survived the "GrimDark Rebranding" nearly unscathed has been my own favorite faction - the Orks. And that's because many of the GW designers acknowledge that they'd loose a large chunk of the Ork fan base if they attempted to move too far away from its roots as a play-off of British Football Hooligans (i mean really that's what they are).
We can interpret the SW 2 ways (i dont play them yet, im an IG meat grinder so i dont hold them on pedestal yet) either 1 they are childish drunken bafoons only wanting to do what they want with no understanding of the greater imperial plan OR drunken, burly, Vikings in space with a serious morality complex that demands they stop at no costs to save the innocent. to paraphrase justin timberlake in that new time movie, "its not worth it if even one person has to die"
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:I mean, the only faction that has essentially survived the "GrimDark Rebranding" nearly unscathed has been my own favorite faction - the Orks. And that's because many of the GW designers acknowledge that they'd loose a large chunk of the Ork fan base if they attempted to move too far away from its roots as a play-off of British Football Hooligans (i mean really that's what they are).
First of all, Orks are funny grimdark. They're alien fungus footbal hooligans who go around pillaging the galaxy and slaughtering innocents.
Secondly, "GrimDark Rebranding" isn't a really thing. The game started out grimdark. Hell, 5th edition is currently less grimdark than Rogue Trader. If anything, it's getting less grimdark. And that's a bad thing, because grimdarkness is the only thing that makes 40k unique. Pretty much everything else is stolen from Dune, Judge Dredd, Starship Troopers, Michael Moorcock, BattleTech and other stuff. Here's a whole thread that lists a bunch of stolen stuff along with assorted Easter Eggs.
dreadfury101 wrote:We can interpret the SW 2 ways (i dont play them yet, im an IG meat grinder so i dont hold them on pedestal yet) either 1 they are childish drunken bafoons only wanting to do what they want with no understanding of the greater imperial plan OR drunken, burly, Vikings in space with a serious morality complex that demands they stop at no costs to save the innocent. to paraphrase justin timberlake in that new time movie, "its not worth it if even one person has to die"
I would say its more accurate to depict the space wolves attitude (as directed by thier current grand pubah, L.G.) Why do we fight, but if not to save the very people that ARE the imperium?
So in their defence we will stand no matter who be their foe.
And lets see a modern day marine stand by and let his squad mate, who hes fought and bled for, be falsely accused, sentenced, and executed by a U.N big wig. Hell, lets see the USMC, stand by and let the UN wax North Carolina for no other reason than "there are middle easterners there" (because they could be terrorists to avoid misunderstandings)
dreadfury101 wrote:We can interpret the SW 2 ways (i dont play them yet, im an IG meat grinder so i dont hold them on pedestal yet) either 1 they are childish drunken bafoons only wanting to do what they want with no understanding of the greater imperial plan OR drunken, burly, Vikings in space with a serious morality complex that demands they stop at no costs to save the innocent. to paraphrase justin timberlake in that new time movie, "its not worth it if even one person has to die"
I would say its more accurate to depict the space wolves attitude (as directed by thier current grand pubah, L.G.) Why do we fight, but if not to save the very people that ARE the imperium?
So in their defence we will stand no matter who be their foe.
And lets see a modern day marine stand by and let his squad mate, who hes fought and bled for, be falsely accused, sentenced, and executed by a U.N big wig.
First of all, Orks are funny grimdark. They're alien fungus footbal hooligans who go around pillaging the galaxy and slaughtering innocents.
Secondly, "GrimDark Rebranding" isn't a really thing. The game started out grimdark. Hell, 5th edition is currently less grimdark than Rogue Trader. If anything, it's getting less grimdark. [/url]
Oh no no no Lone. I've been enough of a spectator on Warseer, Heresy Online, et al. watching the long time Ork players hash this argument out till the cows come home. Don't really have much of intention of reproducing the same exact arguments - i'll gladly concede...
And that's a bad thing, because grimdarkness is the only thing that makes 40k unique. Pretty much everything else is stolen from Dune, Judge Dredd, Starship Troopers, Michael Moorcock, BattleTech and other stuff. [url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/432131.page]Here's a whole thread that lists a bunch of stolen stuff along with assorted Easter Eggs.
...except that part. I remember RT as well Lone, have my battered copy with the ripped front cover sitting underneath my Orks and Ravens.
Grimdarkness as a thematic tone may have existed - but the enforcement mechanism sure as hell did not.
Yes i'm well aware that GW robbed 80s pop culture left and right - it was a means to get people to buy more models after all. Why create intellectual property when you could hitch a ride on things that were already popular?
But, i don't think its too much of an exaggeration that in the "quest for grimdarkness" - much of the humor that characterized previous versions of WH40K gets punted to the side.
And some people do in fact like that humor.
Edit - i mean, let's face it, some of things....
...such as good old Doomrider are never going to see the light of day again.
The USMC will do exactly what the President, their CINC, tells them to do. If the UN were somehow made the ultimate authority of the planet, and had it within their right to exterminate a region of land for whatever reason...
... they'd stand there and watch it happen, because that's their fething job.
I don't think the Space Wolves are "bad guys", but I think you paint them a bit too rosily. Like it was said, they've kept their home planet in a state of perpetual tribalism when they clearly have access to technology to advance their people, and choose not to. This is especially confusing since they have to select their recruits by age 8 or so, so it isn't like the masses of tribals continuing to slaughter each other in some perpetual war are benefiting from the arrangement. The Space Wolves hang out at the Fang, lording over their minions like gods, waiting for their next summons to war.
While you can't really call it "bad", if they believe that preserving the old ways of the people of Fenris enhances the quality of recruits, there is a definite ethical gray area at work.
I'd say if you want to peg "good guys" in the Imperium, you've got the Salamanders and Ultramarines as the most likely candidates. The Salamanders are noted for their ties to humanity and their compassion. The Ultramarines are also noted for their humanity and they've also created and maintained a sizable human empire which is downright utopic compared to the Imperium, which they rule, but also administrate side by side with regular humans.
I don't think space wolves are good or bad guys, but just like most chapters, there are some people who hate normal humans and are "bad guys" and others who would sacrifice themselves for humanity and therefore "the good guys".
Either way, there are definitely other chapters better than the space wolves (salamanders) as well as other chapters worst than space wolves (marines malevolent). This judging is namely how they treat normal humans.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'd say if you want to peg "good guys" in the Imperium, you've got the Salamanders and Ultramarines as the most likely candidates. The Salamanders are noted for their ties to humanity and their compassion. The Ultramarines are also noted for their humanity and they've also created and maintained a sizable human empire which is downright utopic compared to the Imperium, which they rule, but also administrate side by side with regular humans.
This. Definitely true.
Its also the reason why the Ultramarines receive the most flak (when you subtract out the riot Matt Ward caused that is) - "vanilla semi-good marines" just doesn't cut the muster with some folks.
Also, the crimson fists have alot of good guys in it. However, there are also a few jerks in the chapter, but mainly good human liking characters from what Iv'e seen.
In my opinion, 40k is a world with no heroic groups, only heroic individuals, and only in some factions. There are Space Wolves (and Blood Angels, and Grey Knights, yes, and Tau and Eldar) who are stand-up guys, heroic and faithful. There aren't any Orks, Dark Eldar, or Chaos Marines who are heroic, I suppose. But there are no "good guy" factions, just a complicated amalgam of groups, each composed of some heroic, some villainous, and some indifferent individuals. As others have written, this is intentional on the part of the writers, to make a setting with many shades of grey, in which any player can have a fluffy reason to have a game with any other player, regardless of the armies they have chosen. My Blood Angels and your Space Wolves are fighting over some ancient insult, which makes both factions out to be arrogant asshats (which they are) today, but tomorrow my Blood Angels are holding the line against Bob's Orks, who threaten to overrun the Pacifica, the Planet of Nuns and Orphans, killing everything, which makes them pretty heroic (which they also are).
It appears some people in this thread don't know what a death world is
The people who live on Fenris have to live that way because that's how you survive on a death world. The Space Wolves helping anyone or for that matter another fenrisian helping another who can't survive on their own is counter productive. You get soft that way and the planet will kill you.
Anyway I'd say the Space Wolves tie with the Salamanders as the most non dickish chapters.
LoneLictor wrote:If you read "A Thousand Sons" you wouldn't think Space Wolves were good guys. Furthermore, 40k has no faction that is good (though it does have a few good people, usually caught in the crossfire or being used by one faction).
I've just gotten to the Battle of Prospero in that, and it seems to me like the Wolves have been pretty justified, as far as the 40k universe is concerned. Psykers can bring about the destruction of worlds by daemonic infestation and the Wolves are against this of course. Even worse, the Thousand Sons are the embodiment of ambition - not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else. They're pretty aggressive in their disagreement with the Thousand Sons, but the Sons are really asking for it because they refuse to stay in line with the Emperor's orders, orders which are for the good of humanity as a whole.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else.
Isn't that exactly what space wolves do.
Spoiler:
The thousand sons were only attacked by the space wolves for warning the emperor of the threat of Horus, though they used normal librarians, as far as I am aware, though these were not allowed at the time.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else.
Isn't that exactly what space wolves do.
Spoiler:
The thousand sons were only attacked by the space wolves for warning the emperor of the threat of Horus, though they used normal librarians, as far as I am aware, though these were not allowed at the time.
Yes but the novel states that they wouldn't attack Magnus without orders, they would not have done it without the Emperor or Horus' consent. A Thousand Sons also seems to make it so that the entire legion are psykers, although I had thought only some were (perhaps they're changing the fluff).
The Problem with the reaction of the Space Wolves on this point is, that the only persons, who know about entities in the warp with own thoughts and desires at the moment are the emperor, magnus, horus and maybe some of the other primarchs (I don't know, if I recall the passage from Horus Rising correctly, but Horus only describes the idea of Warpdaemons to Loken after one of his guys was possessed by one and he tolds him not to talk about this at all and you don't know if the Emperor talked to Horus about this before or after Nikaea). That psykers caused the old night is at this point nothing more than a rumor, so there is no reason for such a huge distrust against a brotherlegion and without this distrust and the blood oath of leman russ against magnus i doubt that even the wolves would attack their own brothers just because they were ordered to.
What a lot of people are failing to grasp is that the accepted socialital norms that define who is good and who is bad are radically different between our world and the 40k world. In 40k its perfectly acceptale to burn a planet to the ground to save 10 planets. Those 400000 guardsman that died taking a fortress save 400000000000 peoples lives. Hence the medal. Really it seems to come down to the cold calculus of war. Sacrifice X so that Y lives.
Commorogh is a utopia that Ultramar cannot parallel too. It's very advanced and the Dark Eldar have made great leaps in the understanding of anatomy and modern science. All these alagations of piracy have been misunderstood as noble expeditionary fleets seeking to see the outside universe after their evil Craftworld cousins birthed Slannesh. To their dismay, the greedy expansionist Tau and the dying fascist totalitarian empire of the Imperium. They aren't trying to hurt you, their trying to warn you about the impending tyranid invasion, because they are such a selfless people, that even though they exist within a impenetrable webway. They gladly sail the stars to protect the galaxy from itself.
To be fair i think the eldar are the only good race in a sense that they are not trying to wipe all the other races out they mostly fight for survival but in the end good and evil are points of view each faction has its good guys and its douchebags
Space Wolves are not exactly the "good guys". Their attitude towards humans, or "mortals" as they call them, is not too dissimilar to that of the Chaos marines', who view them as disposable assets (SW, of course, don't slaughter humans for funsies). Dan Abnett's book on the Wolves makes this patently clear.
The only example people ever cite that supports the Wolves' supposed philanthropy, is their objection to the Inquisition's imprisoning all of the survivors of Armageddon. Well, that objection wasn't so much based on "we are here to protect these poor humans!" but rather, "these puny mortals fought bravely, and thus deserve better." Of course, such altruism is misplaced, considering the very real danger of Chaos corruption.
If you want a Chapter who really do care about the plight of humanity, you need to look to the Salamanders and Ultramarines,
Crimson-King2120 wrote:To be fair i think the eldar are the only good race in a sense that they are not trying to wipe all the other races out they mostly fight for survival.
And if the Farseers say they can save X amount of Eldar lives by sacrificing a thousand (or a million, or more) times that number of totally innocent humans, they will do it. Survival at any cost to bystanders isn't exactly "good".
So it is with almost every faction out there. The Tau might be using mind control or something, but at least they let you join them - few others would do so. Orks kill you because why not, but they don't hold any particular hatred for you. And so on.
Well, space wolves just seem, well, INSANE, so basically, the space wolves only stand up for the weak and the few to get an excuse to kill stuff. At least thats how I interpret it.
Wow so much hate for the wolves of Fenris. Wow.
Wolves save civilians not only during Armaggedon, but in every war they have fought.
Wolves are insane. Hey look at Ragnar and his company they fight extremely well. They may be disorganized but they do know how to make up tactics and fight for a long time.
Plus who Ever said Eldar are the real good guys....
Ultras, Salamanders, Blood Ravens (half of the chapter that is), Black Templars believe it or not (where they came into rescue an entire planet. read one of the white dwarves), and the Storm Wardens
Russ Mandarin wrote:It appears some people in this thread don't know what a death world is
The people who live on Fenris have to live that way because that's how you survive on a death world. The Space Wolves helping anyone or for that matter another fenrisian helping another who can't survive on their own is counter productive. You get soft that way and the planet will kill you.
Anyway I'd say the Space Wolves tie with the Salamanders as the most non dickish chapters.
Ah, so withholding technology and allowing the few inhabitants of Fenris to tear themselfs apart somehow helps them to survive on their Deathworld because poverty and constant warfare make you strong... /o\
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crimson-King2120 wrote:To be fair i think the eldar are the only good race in a sense that they are not trying to wipe all the other races out they mostly fight for survival but in the end good and evil are points of view each faction has its good guys and its douchebags
Hrm, someone forgot to inform Biel Tan about the "not trying to wipe out all other races" part
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else.
Isn't that exactly what space wolves do.
Spoiler:
The thousand sons were only attacked by the space wolves for warning the emperor of the threat of Horus, though they used normal librarians, as far as I am aware, though these were not allowed at the time.
Yes but the novel states that they wouldn't attack Magnus without orders, they would not have done it without the Emperor or Horus' consent. A Thousand Sons also seems to make it so that the entire legion are psykers, although I had thought only some were (perhaps they're changing the fluff).
Ah but Horus changed the orders from "Give them a good telling off" to "KILL THEM ALL"
If I recall correctly, Ultra's, Salamanders, Raven Guard and Black templars to a lesser degree, all care for Civies. Then you have all the unnamed compasionate chapters that aren't named.
What are you folks collectively defining as "good" behavior?
I'm not trying to bring up the old canard about morals being relative, but when your establishing whether the pattern of behavior of an individual or group is acceptable or not your doing it against some sort of standard.
I mean for instance,someone brought up our favorite manipulator race's stereotypical action of "We sacrifice 1,000,000,000,000,000 human lives to save 10,000 Eldar" as a bad action.
So the "good" action would be...let the 10,000 Eldar get massacred?
If folks are going to put the Space Wolves (or any other group) "on trial" so to speak - its appropriate to tell the defendant by what Ruler/Code/Measure her or she is being judged on.
No. They aren't the only "good guys", and even whether they are is debatable. If you mean serve the imperium, there are plenty of "good guys". If you mean fight the good fight, back the underdog, stand up for what is right, etc., there are still the majority of space marine chapters and imperial guard armies.
The only notable exceptions to "good guys" that serve the imperium that I can think of are the inquisition (very shady, merciless, black and white views on just about everything)- most other factions seem to generally be "good guys".
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:What a lot of people are failing to grasp is that the accepted socialital norms that define who is good and who is bad are radically different between our world and the 40k world. In 40k its perfectly acceptale to burn a planet to the ground to save 10 planets. Those 400000 guardsman that died taking a fortress save 400000000000 peoples lives. Hence the medal. Really it seems to come down to the cold calculus of war. Sacrifice X so that Y lives.
This.
Shadowbrand wrote:Dark Eldar are the true good guys of 40k.
I dunno if this is serious or trolling... but Dark Eldar are possibly the most evil race in 40k. Commorragh's far from a utopia, it's a Randian-style dystopia, and every Dark Eldar is a self-centered sadist willing to do anything to live 1 second longer.
The Crusader wrote:
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
BaneGuard wrote:
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
not only do they refuse to shackle themselves, they go further than everyone else.
Isn't that exactly what space wolves do.
Spoiler:
The thousand sons were only attacked by the space wolves for warning the emperor of the threat of Horus, though they used normal librarians, as far as I am aware, though these were not allowed at the time.
Yes but the novel states that they wouldn't attack Magnus without orders, they would not have done it without the Emperor or Horus' consent. A Thousand Sons also seems to make it so that the entire legion are psykers, although I had thought only some were (perhaps they're changing the fluff).
Ah but Horus changed the orders from "Give them a good telling off" to "KILL THEM ALL"
Yes, they were following the orders of the Warmaster, the Emperor's favoured son though. Not that it's not what they wanted though, of course.
Easy enough to answer. Sw fanboys will justify the sw attitudes of arrogance, hypocrisy, ignorance, stupidity, etc (this list could go in for a while), and those who are not sw fanboys will see sw as the arrogant, ignorant, hypocrites that they are.
Now, to be fair, the same could be said of any 40k faction. Their fans will like them and others will not. The sw are just an extreme example of this. But that being said, you've got to have some pretty extreme fanboy blinders on to think sw are good guys, much more so to seriously ask if they're the only good guys.
IMHO, sw are just this side of chaos. They do what they want without any thought of the consequences. Khorne must delight in their berserker rage. Tzcheench must still be giggling over the fact that sw have convinced themselves that rune priests don't get their power from the warp (which they do btw. Yes I know they say it's from shaman rituals, but that's what every primitive culture says about their magic men.) All four chaos gods must love the fact that the sw would put their pride before the safety of trillions of others by allowing the possibility of corrupted soldiers to spread the influence of chaos as far as possible. Really, the sw are probably one of chaos' most useful tools to use against the imperium.
What most seem to forget (as I see it) when citing novels is the time gap between the stories.
If I recall well, the events at Battle for the Fang were 1000 years after the Heresy, and aye, Vlka Fenryka where arrogant and even arseholes towards humans in some ways.
Now in M41 we have the space Wolves, with Grimnar as Great Wolf, and this is the period where they "softened up", we see it in the novels with Ragnar.
We need to keep in mind that Russ was the Emperor's executioner, Space Wolves where the Legion that could take down Legions. Without the Emperor and without legions, I see as natural evolution that they went from rabid wolves to shepherd dogs.
Dark wrote:What most seem to forget (as I see it) when citing novels is the time gap between the stories.
If I recall well, the events at Battle for the Fang were 1000 years after the Heresy, and aye, Vlka Fenryka where arrogant and even arseholes towards humans in some ways.
Now in M41 we have the space Wolves, with Grimnar as Great Wolf, and this is the period where they "softened up", we see it in the novels with Ragnar.
We need to keep in mind that Russ was the Emperor's executioner, Space Wolves where the Legion that could take down Legions. Without the Emperor and without legions, I see as natural evolution that they went from rabid wolves to shepherd dogs.
Quite possibly the Emprah used sw as his executioner ecause he knew only the sw were big enough pricks and arrogant enough to not only function as his executioner, but take joy in cutting down their own brothers. Yeah, sounds like the good guys to me (slight sarcasm there in case you missed it.) We learn in Legion that even Horus, had he won, would have hated himself for turning on his brothers and their father. Not the sw though. They take pride in being butchers.
Dark wrote:What most seem to forget (as I see it) when citing novels is the time gap between the stories.
If I recall well, the events at Battle for the Fang were 1000 years after the Heresy, and aye, Vlka Fenryka where arrogant and even arseholes towards humans in some ways.
Now in M41 we have the space Wolves, with Grimnar as Great Wolf, and this is the period where they "softened up", we see it in the novels with Ragnar.
We need to keep in mind that Russ was the Emperor's executioner, Space Wolves where the Legion that could take down Legions. Without the Emperor and without legions, I see as natural evolution that they went from rabid wolves to shepherd dogs.
Quite possibly the Emprah used sw as his executioner ecause he knew only the sw were big enough pricks and arrogant enough to not only function as his executioner, but take joy in cutting down their own brothers. Yeah, sounds like the good guys to me (slight sarcasm there in case you missed it.) We learn in Legion that even Horus, had he won, would have hated himself for turning on his brothers and their father. Not the sw though. They take pride in being butchers.
They do the job they were given and the job they were created for...
They were manipulated by Horus into attacking the Thousand Sons, which really isn't that stupid of them because they had every reason to trust Horus.
They aren't good guys in the sense that they will save every man woman and child but they respect those that fight for the Emperor no matter how outmatched they are.
Horus- "nah, what dad really ment was that he wants to you to kill all the thousand sons. I know he very specifically told you just to arrest Mangus, but trust me on this one"
Russ- "woot! Sounds good to me. Thanks for clearing that up for me Horus" - high five-
-on approach to prospero-
Russ- "okay boys, we're going to down there and kill everything we see. Dad said just to arrest Mangus, but Horus told me that he really meant to kill him and his entire legion. Also, let's just kill the planets entire population while we're at it. I'm sure that's what dad would want."
Phiasco II wrote:Horus- "nah, what dad really ment was that he wants to you to kill all the thousand sons. I know he very specifically told you just to arrest Mangus, but trust me on this one"
Russ- "woot! Sounds good to me. Thanks for clearing that up for me Horus" - high five-
-on approach to prospero-
Russ- "okay boys, we're going to down there and kill everything we see. Dad said just to arrest Mangus, but Horus told me that he really meant to kill him and his entire legion. Also, let's just kill the planets entire population while we're at it. I'm sure that's what dad would want."
Yup, just doin their job.
Horus was the Warmaster.
The Right Hand of the Emperor second only to the Emperor.
The Space Wolves had little reason to suspect him of treason.
Right, cause the right hand of the Emprah can completely change the perimeters of explicit instructions given by the Emprah himself. How about making a quick call to dad to double check? Oh, I know why, Russ WANTED to kill Mangus because he didn't like him. He didn't question Horus because Horus told him what he wanted to hear. Russ is the perfect example for his legion, as is proper for a primarch. His legacy of arrogance, hypocrasy, and ignorance is still epitomized by his mongrels right up to the current fluff. Logan does his best to show his primarch the purest form of flattery.
Dark wrote:What most seem to forget (as I see it) when citing novels is the time gap between the stories.
If I recall well, the events at Battle for the Fang were 1000 years after the Heresy, and aye, Vlka Fenryka where arrogant and even arseholes towards humans in some ways.
Now in M41 we have the space Wolves, with Grimnar as Great Wolf, and this is the period where they "softened up", we see it in the novels with Ragnar.
We need to keep in mind that Russ was the Emperor's executioner, Space Wolves where the Legion that could take down Legions. Without the Emperor and without legions, I see as natural evolution that they went from rabid wolves to shepherd dogs.
Quite possibly the Emprah used sw as his executioner ecause he knew only the sw were big enough pricks and arrogant enough to not only function as his executioner, but take joy in cutting down their own brothers. Yeah, sounds like the good guys to me (slight sarcasm there in case you missed it.) We learn in Legion that even Horus, had he won, would have hated himself for turning on his brothers and their father. Not the sw though. They take pride in being butchers.
Phiasco II wrote:Right, cause the right hand of the Emprah can completely change the perimeters of explicit instructions given by the Emprah himself. How about making a quick call to dad to double check? Oh, I know why, Russ WANTED to kill Mangus because he didn't like him. He didn't question Horus because Horus told him what he wanted to hear. Russ is the perfect example for his legion, as is proper for a primarch. His legacy of arrogance, hypocrasy, and ignorance is still epitomized by his mongrels right up to the current fluff. Logan does his best to show his primarch the purest form of flattery.
Have you read Propsero Burns?
Russ didn't really want to do it but he trusted Horus just like many others did.
Russ probably wanted to take Magnus down a peg or two but not kill him...
I don't see how Logan Grimnar acts anything like him either.
Admitedly, I have not read prospero burns. However, in thousand sons Russ' fleet pops out of he warp and immediately launches a full fledged assault. I don't think there's any doubt that Russ fully intended to kill Magnus and all his legion, and everyone else on prospero as well.
As for Logan acting like Russ I was thinking of his attitude of arrogance, demonstration of hypocrasy, and ignorance of the big picture. Just like his primarch.
Phiasco II wrote:Horus- "nah, what dad really ment was that he wants to you to kill all the thousand sons. I know he very specifically told you just to arrest Mangus, but trust me on this one"
Russ- "woot! Sounds good to me. Thanks for clearing that up for me Horus" - high five-
-on approach to prospero-
Russ- "okay boys, we're going to down there and kill everything we see. Dad said just to arrest Mangus, but Horus told me that he really meant to kill him and his entire legion. Also, let's just kill the planets entire population while we're at it. I'm sure that's what dad would want."
Yup, just doin their job.
This isn't exactly what happened and in any case so much has changed from the original fluff that it makes Russ look beyond stupid. After the Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus before him. Horus contacted him and told him the Emperor changed his mind and wanted him dead. Obviously Russ is doggedly loyal to the emperor and Horus is his Warmaster. There's no doubt in his mind that he will listen to him.
Even when they get to Prospero he goes out of his way to get Magnus to surrender through his spy even though it would be going against the order he already has to commit. He goes so far as to weigh the slaughter of the innocents at Magnus' feet so he would surrender. When that doesn't happen all bets are off Russ knows his duty.
This isn't exactly what happened and in any case so much has changed from the original fluff that it makes Russ look beyond stupid. After the Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus before him. Horus contacted him and told him the Emperor changed his mind and wanted him dead. Obviously Russ is doggedly loyal to the emperor and Horus is his Warmaster. There's no doubt in his mind that he will listen to him.
Even when they get to Prospero he goes out of his way to get Magnus to surrender through his spy even though it would be going against the order he already has to commit. He goes so far as to weigh the slaughter of the innocents at Magnus' feet so he would surrender. When that doesn't happen all bets are off Russ knows his duty.
In Thousand Sons Russ' fleet pops out of the warp and immediately begins to bombard prospero. There is no "going out of his way to get Mangus to surrender." Mangus would have surrendered, had he been given the chance. He realizes the immensity of the mistake he made and understands that there will be a reckoning. Mangus even goes so far as to order his fleet away from prospero so the sw would have no opposition. So, sorry, but Russ willfully, foolishly, went in hopeing to kill his own brother.
It may have been different in previous fluff, but that's the way it reads now.
Phiasco II wrote:Admitedly, I have not read prospero burns. However, in thousand sons Russ' fleet pops out of he warp and immediately launches a full fledged assault. I don't think there's any doubt that Russ fully intended to kill Magnus and all his legion, and everyone else on prospero as well.
As for Logan acting like Russ I was thinking of his attitude of arrogance, demonstration of hypocrasy, and ignorance of the big picture. Just like his primarch.
Yes, but A Thousand Sons only covers the perspective of 1 side.
In "A Thousand Sons", even before the Battle of Prospero, we see the Space Wolves acting as barbaric, arrogant antiintellectuals. Furthermore, they're just as corrupt as the Thousand Sons. Wulfren are like Chaos Spawn and Rune Priests are almost exactly Librarians and Sorcerers. The difference is that the Thousand Sons aren't nearly as brutal or arrogant or bully like as the Space Wolves, so they don't get away with it.
LoneLictor wrote:In "A Thousand Sons", even before the Battle of Prospero, we see the Space Wolves acting as barbaric, arrogant antiintellectuals. Furthermore, they're just as corrupt as the Thousand Sons. Wulfren are like Chaos Spawn and Rune Priests are almost exactly Librarians and Sorcerers. The difference is that the Thousand Sons aren't nearly as brutal or arrogant or bully like as the Space Wolves, so they don't get away with it.
LoneLictor wrote:In "A Thousand Sons", even before the Battle of Prospero, we see the Space Wolves acting as barbaric, arrogant antiintellectuals. Furthermore, they're just as corrupt as the Thousand Sons. Wulfren are like Chaos Spawn and Rune Priests are almost exactly Librarians and Sorcerers. The difference is that the Thousand Sons aren't nearly as brutal or arrogant or bully like as the Space Wolves, so they don't get away with it.
Qft.
Couldn't have out it better myself.
Yeah but we see it from an entirely different angle in 'Prospero Burns'...
LoneLictor wrote:In "A Thousand Sons", even before the Battle of Prospero, we see the Space Wolves acting as barbaric, arrogant antiintellectuals. Furthermore, they're just as corrupt as the Thousand Sons. Wulfren are like Chaos Spawn and Rune Priests are almost exactly Librarians and Sorcerers. The difference is that the Thousand Sons aren't nearly as brutal or arrogant or bully like as the Space Wolves, so they don't get away with it.
Qft.
Couldn't have out it better myself.
Oh boy...
In the fluff, it is made relatively clear that the Space Wolves maintain a facade of 'anti-intellectualism" as you put it in order to keep their opponents "off-balance". As Homo Astartes, they are by their very nature superior intellectually to most human beings and the relative equals of their brother marines.
This facade can cast them as somewhat devious, but definately not as anti-intellectuals. Russ himself used this ruse very effectively and only a few of his brothers were aware of it. It must be said as well, that the ability to maintain this fascade for 10 millenia says something of their self-control, if not their intellectual capacity.
Now, this still doesn't answer the question about how "good" the Wolves are, but relatively speaking, they are the cleansing hands of the Emperor whose primary goal was/is the continuation or dominance of the human race as a species. The Wolves were trusted by him in the maintenance of the loyalty of the other Space Marine Chapters and they take that role very seriously.
Through the millenia, their mystique may have diminished in the eyes of the other Chapters as more a reflection of ancient history than reality. Of that, I must say I don't have the knowledge to make much of a judgement.
It bears noting that, amongst the regular citizens of the Imperium, the Space Wolves are the most popular of Chapters, exceeding even the Ultramarines in the tales told among the common folk of their adventures and heroism.
It would seem that, whenever a Great Hunt is called and the Space Wolves go searching the galaxy for signs of Russ, they encounter something really nasty and end up saving millions of lives or something as they kick butt across the stars. There's not a sector of Imperial space that does not have grand statues of the Space Wolves standing in public squares somewhere.
Dawi-Marine'Va wrote: the "good guys" of the Space Marines are BY FAR the Salamanders~
Truth.
Space Wolves are not 'good'. Not by any stretch. Read 1k Sons and then tell us what you think. Heck even Prospero Burns doesn't really do them any real favors.
LoneLictor wrote:In "A Thousand Sons", even before the Battle of Prospero, we see the Space Wolves acting as barbaric, arrogant antiintellectuals. Furthermore, they're just as corrupt as the Thousand Sons. Wulfren are like Chaos Spawn and Rune Priests are almost exactly Librarians and Sorcerers. The difference is that the Thousand Sons aren't nearly as brutal or arrogant or bully like as the Space Wolves, so they don't get away with it.
Qft.
Couldn't have out it better myself.
Oh boy...
In the fluff, it is made relatively clear that the Space Wolves maintain a fascade of 'anti-intellectualism" as you put it in order to keep their opponents "off-balance". As Homo Astartes, they are by their very nature superior intellectually to most human beings and the relative equals of their brother marines.
This fascade can cast them as somewhat devious, but definately not as anti-intellectuals. Russ himself used this ruse very effectively and only a few of his brothers were aware of it. It must be said as well, that the ability to maintain this fascade for 10 millenia says something of their self-control, if not their intellectual capacity.
Now, this still doesn't answer the question about how "good" the Wolves are, but relatively speaking, they are the cleansing hands of the Emperor whose primary goal was/is the continuation or dominance of the human race as a species. The Wolves were trusted by him in the maintenance of the loyalty of the other Space Marine Chapters and they take that role very seriously.
Through the millenia, their mystique may have diminished in the eyes of the other Chapters as more a reflection of ancient history than reality. Of that, I must say I don't have the knowledge to make much of a judgement.
dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).
an internet cookie for your thoughts?
I'd really, really love to hear more about those US marines near where you grew up that go with wild hair and shaggy beards, drink through duty, steal military hardware for cruising through town and regularly flip the government/central command, lay into their own allies without warning and don't take no s%$# from anyone (drill sergeants or some such). Rowdy disobedience has become such a rare and precious thing in modern militaries.
Dark wrote:We need to keep in mind that Russ was the Emperor's executioner, Space Wolves where the Legion that could take down Legions. Without the Emperor and without legions, I see as natural evolution that they went from rabid wolves to shepherd dogs.
I would like to point out that this statement is only made by a dying Wolf Priest and is not confirmed by anyone else. I would love to see how the Space Wolves would handle some of the Legions that outnumbered them 10 to 1. As it is, they outnumbered the Thousand Sons and still needed a bunch of Custodes and Sisters of Silence to help them and still got their asses handed to them until Tzeench pushed the LULZ button. Magnus should have just taken Tzeench up on his offer and annihilated the whole Space Wolves legion in space, but he didn't because he was loyal and felt genuine remorse for his destruction of the Webway project. Really, the whole thing was the Emperor's fault for letting himself be influenced by politics and making the Nikea declaration to keep the superstitious babies happy. If you're going to be an autocrat, be a fething autocrat. Kim Jong Il would have made a better Emperor of Mankind for crap's sake.
Russ Mandarin wrote:This isn't exactly what happened and in any case so much has changed from the original fluff that it makes Russ look beyond stupid. After the Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus before him. Horus contacted him and told him the Emperor changed his mind and wanted him dead. Obviously Russ is doggedly loyal to the emperor and Horus is his Warmaster. There's no doubt in his mind that he will listen to him.
Even when they get to Prospero he goes out of his way to get Magnus to surrender through his spy even though it would be going against the order he already has to commit. He goes so far as to weigh the slaughter of the innocents at Magnus' feet so he would surrender. When that doesn't happen all bets are off Russ knows his duty.
He talks to Hauser, who the Wolves assumed was Magnus' spy the entire time. He wasn't. They just assumed the worst. Whoever said it here earlier that Russ followed Horus' instructions because it was what he wanted to hear, was right. Russ was always picking fights with his brothers, whether it's decking Lionel because the latter killed some rebel leader before Russ had a chance to, or almost coming to blows with Magnus over the Wolves' desire to destroy a library before Lorgar intervened. But what can you expect from someone with dog DNA who was never properly domesticated?
Of course, they also didn't question the fact that Prospero's planetary defenses were down, and there was no organized resistance, and the PDF forces were in parade uniform. They just started slaughtering civilians left and right.
Dark wrote:At Prospero Burns you see a communication between Russ and Magnus that goes:
Russ:- Brother, give up, dun want ta beat ya ta pulp
Magnus:- Come at me, bro!
R:- Seriously, laddie
M:- Pffffft
R:- So be it
Of course, mebbe Russ talked ta Tzeentch passing as Magnus~
You are either a liar, or a fool. This conversation never happened.
LoneLictor wrote:In "A Thousand Sons", even before the Battle of Prospero, we see the Space Wolves acting as barbaric, arrogant antiintellectuals. Furthermore, they're just as corrupt as the Thousand Sons. Wulfren are like Chaos Spawn and Rune Priests are almost exactly Librarians and Sorcerers. The difference is that the Thousand Sons aren't nearly as brutal or arrogant or bully like as the Space Wolves, so they don't get away with it.
Qft.
Couldn't have out it better myself.
Oh boy...
In the fluff, it is made relatively clear that the Space Wolves maintain a fascade of 'anti-intellectualism" as you put it in order to keep their opponents "off-balance". As Homo Astartes, they are by their very nature superior intellectually to most human beings and the relative equals of their brother marines.
This fascade can cast them as somewhat devious, but definately not as anti-intellectuals. Russ himself used this ruse very effectively and only a few of his brothers were aware of it. It must be said as well, that the ability to maintain this fascade for 10 millenia says something of their self-control, if not their intellectual capacity.
Now, this still doesn't answer the question about how "good" the Wolves are, but relatively speaking, they are the cleansing hands of the Emperor whose primary goal was/is the continuation or dominance of the human race as a species. The Wolves were trusted by him in the maintenance of the loyalty of the other Space Marine Chapters and they take that role very seriously.
Through the millenia, their mystique may have diminished in the eyes of the other Chapters as more a reflection of ancient history than reality. Of that, I must say I don't have the knowledge to make much of a judgement.
Could I have a source for this?
There is no one particular source (aside from those books that deal with them directly), but as you read the Horus Heresy books you'll find insights if not direct statements supporting this view. The maintenance of a facade for intimidation purposes by the Wolves is suggested in one of the books as well. My opinion of the Wolves changed dramatically after reading the Heresy books.
I still don't collect them because I don't care for the theme, but they are far more interesting now.
Uhlan wrote:There is no one particular source (aside from those books that deal with them directly), but as you read the Horus Heresy books you'll find insights if not direct statements supporting this view. The maintenance of a facade for intimidation purposes by the Wolves is suggested in one of the books as well. My opinion of the Wolves changed dramatically after reading the Heresy books.
I still don't collect them because I don't care for the theme, but they are far more interesting now.
I've read the Horus Heresy books. In fact, I cited them for my anti-intellectual argument.
Maybe you can give me a specific scene in a specific book?
There are a lot of enlightening events in the two books which involve the Thousand Sons and the same events from the perspective of the Wolves.
I find it suprising that anyone who has read those books would come away from them thinking that the Wolves are barbarous ale-drinking morons and yet I hear this opinion consistently.
The character that spends a lot of time with the Wolves and even has a short private conversation with Russ in a psychically secure room is enlightening. I believe it is also this book that one or two of the other Primarchs make comments about the Russ and whether or not he is a simple barbarian. The Wolves and Russ came across to me as far more calculating (if not Human) than the previous fluff gave them credit for.
Perhaps many do not see the Wolves for what they are because we are forced to view them against the backdrop involving the 'tragic' circumstances with the Thousand Sons.
That the Wolves were called to purge the heretical practices of the 'loyal' Thousand Sons drives many fans of the fluff to froth at the mouth with a deep sense of injustice. It's this sense, IMHO, that colors the vision of the Wolves perhaps and brands them as being 'anti-intellectual' or barbarous because they can't be anything else and have committed that 'crime'. The previous fluff had been so superficial as to support this view as well.
I am a huge fan of the Thousand Sons Horus Heresy fluff (they are my second favorite Legion) and find it far too difficult to 'like' the Space Wolves. I don't care for their fluff, I don't care for the theme, but I simply cannot agree after reading the HH novels that they are anything but the equals of the other Space Marine chapters intellectually albeit completely single-minded in their duty.
mondo80 wrote:Technically the Tyranids are the only true good guys, they are creatures looking for food. When a lion kills a gazelle is that evil?
Most Tyranid creatures do not survive the killing of an opponent. They are not sustaining themselves. They are expending their live in a suicide-attack determined to kill (not consume) the opponent. Lions are also not guided by "a malign intelligence" or "something cannier than animalistic instinct" that clearly drives Tyranids with purposeful malign intent.
Uhlan wrote:The character that spends a lot of time with the Wolves and even has a short private conversation with Russ in a psychically secure room is enlightening. I believe it is also this book that one or two of the other Primarchs make comments about the Russ and whether or not he is a simple barbarian. The Wolves and Russ came across to me as far more calculating (if not Human) than the previous fluff gave them credit for.
And what occurs during this conversation that shows that the Legion isn't made up of barbarians, despite the fact that everything else throughout the fluff points to them as barbarians?
I don't buy the whole "they are pretending" argument. Sure, Russ is smarter than he appears, because he's a fething Primarch. But they still act like savages. We see it in the attitudes of the rank and file and command in many books. They are raised in an extremely violent and superstitious culture, and none of those superstitions are dispelled when they become Astartes (not even, or especially not, those blessed with the additional insight of a psyker).
In the 31st millennium, who are they pretending for? All humans are supposedly their allies, and any aliens they come across don't know a Viking barbarian from a Roman intellectual.
And again, none of this supposed intellectualism is ever brought to the fore, so if they really are pretending, they've bought their own act hook, line and sinker. If it acts like a duck, talks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, and looks like a duck, well it's obviously a walrus. Please.
I wouldn't place too much credit in A Thousand Sons either way.
First, BL has always noted that they are taking their "own take" on the universe. With respect to Space Wolves, that could well mean moving a bit off from the canon because 1000 pages of roaring, drunk Vikings gets tedious fast.
Second, that particular book is set during the Horus Heresy, when Marines by and large were supposed far more rational, the Imperium far more enlightend, and everything a far, far cry from the superstitious "Dark Age" they fell into after the Heresy and in 40K. Again, with respect to Space Wolves, that likely applies ten times over as they've "mythologized" their past, their Primarch and how the Universe works even more than most.
Third, that particular book set during the Horus Heresy is further unique in trying to "flip" the usual perspective and present one of the formly "bad guys" as good guys and one of the formerly "good guys" as bad guys. Straining some established concepts to make that work was likely inevitable.
Fourth, even considering the 1 to 3 above, your reference is with respect to the Primarch, who by and large tend to play a "special role" anyhow, so I wouldn't take that as overtly representative of Space Wolves more generally (even Space Wolves in 30.000, not 40.000, presented as (in broad narrative roles) villains rather than heroes, and in a BL publication, rather than a GW-main publication).
The Space Wolves aren't the good guys, definitely.
They're unnecessarily arrogant, primarily.
Most importantly, though, they are borderline renegade, like many Space Marine chapters.
Ignoring Inquisitorial edicts and firing on Ecclesiarchy ships sounds good in the sense that the Inquisition and Eccleisarchy are bad, but it isn't itself good.
Picture this:
You work for the Federal Government. Recently, a force of US Marines has been accused of breaking their oaths or not complying with orders.
As soon as you arrive in your van to investigate, they open fire with bullets and rockets.
I prefer to think of the book fluff as revelatory and not an 'interpretation', lol.
That said, sanctioned fluff is sanctioned fluff in my opinion. The Horus Heresy is far better written than many previous novels especially where the Wolves are concerned. I welcome a deeper thought process involving characterization and storyline.
As to some kind of degenerate process after the HH? you make a very interesting point. Ten thousand years is a long time. However, I've only read some of the Space Wolves omnibus though what I have read is pretty bad.
Then again, perhaps the Omnibus stories are typical of the tales the Wolves foster in order to maintain the mystique... and maybe the HH 'interpretation' is much closer to the truth.
Until someone definatively retcons the history completely we'll never know...
Crimson-King2120 wrote:To be fair i think the eldar are the only good race in a sense that they are not trying to wipe all the other races out they mostly fight for survival.
And if the Farseers say they can save X amount of Eldar lives by sacrificing a thousand (or a million, or more) times that number of totally innocent humans, they will do it. Survival at any cost to bystanders isn't exactly "good".
So it is with almost every faction out there. The Tau might be using mind control or something, but at least they let you join them - few others would do so. Orks kill you because why not, but they don't hold any particular hatred for you. And so on.
I have yet to see any chapter that would have moral issues killing an Eldar, no matter if provoked or not, so if we go by that definition no chapter can be good,
I prefer to think of the book fluff as revelatory and not an 'interpretation', lol.
That said, sanctioned fluff is sanctioned fluff in my opinion. The Horus Heresy is far better written than many previous novels especially where the Wolves are concerned. I welcome a deeper thought process involving characterization and storyline.
As to some kind of degenerate process after the HH? you make a very interesting point. Ten thousand years is a long time. However, I've only read some of the Space Wolves omnibus though what I have read is pretty bad.
Then again, perhaps the Omnibus stories are typical of the tales the Wolves foster in order to maintain the mystique... and maybe the HH 'interpretation' is much closer to the truth.
Until someone definatively retcons the history completely we'll never know...
Just thoughts.
This post makes a big assumption; that the HH establishes the Space Wolves as smart. It doesn't. It never did. It's made clear that they're good at killing people, but also that they're savage, barbarian anti-intellectual boozers.
I prefer to think of the book fluff as revelatory and not an 'interpretation', lol.
That said, sanctioned fluff is sanctioned fluff in my opinion. The Horus Heresy is far better written than many previous novels especially where the Wolves are concerned. I welcome a deeper thought process involving characterization and storyline.
As to some kind of degenerate process after the HH? you make a very interesting point. Ten thousand years is a long time. However, I've only read some of the Space Wolves omnibus though what I have read is pretty bad.
Then again, perhaps the Omnibus stories are typical of the tales the Wolves foster in order to maintain the mystique... and maybe the HH 'interpretation' is much closer to the truth.
Until someone definatively retcons the history completely we'll never know...
Just thoughts.
Fair enough. It will be "revelatory" instead of 'interpretation' if it sticks. But either way, it's a recent tangent. It's not how people wrote about Space Wolves for GW even a few years ago. It's arguably not how even Kelly wrote about Space Wolves in the Codex when they stole Thunderhawks to cruise into town for gaks and giggles, some were literally raised by wolf-mothers jungle book-style and they generally enjoyed a good, harmless brawl.
As for the degeneration, I think the early books, especially the initial trilogy of the HH stressed that alot. All this talk of enlightment, of reason, of explicitly not worshiping anything, much less the Emperor. Garviel Loken as arguably the first protagonist of the series goes through entire chapters of soul-searching when he believes the the entire "mournival" affair is backward superstition and unworthy of Space Marines, etc. ,etc.. . It's not as strong a theme in a Thousand Sons specifically, but I do believe it is a strong theme overall of the series and, arguably, the entire 40K line long before BL was started, that 40K is sort of a supersticious galactic dark medieval time, and that the fall from grace started with the heresy. Hence the whole thing of STCs and "discovering technology." Of random words from the Emperor that have become absurd law in the Imperium, etc.. ,etc.. .
Omegus wrote:I don't buy the whole "they are pretending" argument. Sure, Russ is smarter than he appears, because he's a fething Primarch. But they still act like savages. We see it in the attitudes of the rank and file and command in many books. They are raised in an extremely violent and superstitious culture, and none of those superstitions are dispelled when they become Astartes (not even, or especially not, those blessed with the additional insight of a psyker).
In the 31st millennium, who are they pretending for? All humans are supposedly their allies, and any aliens they come across don't know a Viking barbarian from a Roman intellectual.
And again, none of this supposed intellectualism is ever brought to the fore, so if they really are pretending, they've bought their own act hook, line and sinker. If it acts like a duck, talks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, and looks like a duck, well it's obviously a walrus. Please.
Yeah, they act like savages, but that's because they all grew up on a savage planet. And really, it's just their planet's warrior-culture - saying that they're savages is like calling indigenous peoples "savage" for their practices.
As much as I'm defending the Space Wolves, I certainly don't agree with the OP - they're far from the "only good guys" in 40k. A black and white morality does not apply to 40k at all, there's more of a compass. I'd argue that Space Wolves are good, but have some serious flaws which lend them some depth (stubborn, anti-authoritarian, violent, etc). If I had to classify them, I'd say they fit comfortably into Chaotic Good on the classic scale. The only bluntly "good" unit I could classify would be Ultramarines, but that's part of the reason why they're so boring.
Russ Mandarin wrote:The Space Wolves are the most honorable chapter. They don't let their honor become compromised by following the codex to the tee.
Oh the Inquisition wants to kill these people who fought by our side because they could be chaos tainted......Nope
Oh the Inquisition wants to check out the native fenrisian because of accusations of socery........Nope
Oh the Wolves go out and do unintentional altruistic deeds in the process of looking for a fight.
Yeah they are one of the nicer chapters but "good guys" don't exist in the IoM only heroes
Unintentional deeds can't really be altruistic if they really are unintentional. The two above that really just show their arrogance and unintelligence.
The Inquisition needs to eliminate the threat of spreading the taint of chaos. If it means people have to die, even those who have fought and lived, then it needs to happen. It's a stupid idea to allow that many people leave after witnessing what they had.
How is it honorable to deny a part of the organization they are supposed to be sworn to defend to look into accusations pertaining to that parts work? IE denying the Inquisition onto their homeworld. Not honorable.
Follow the codex to a tee? How many marines are supposed to be in a chapter again?
Russ Mandarin wrote:The Space Wolves are the most honorable chapter. They don't let their honor become compromised by following the codex to the tee.
Oh the Inquisition wants to kill these people who fought by our side because they could be chaos tainted......Nope
Oh the Inquisition wants to check out the native fenrisian because of accusations of socery........Nope
Oh the Wolves go out and do unintentional altruistic deeds in the process of looking for a fight.
Yeah they are one of the nicer chapters but "good guys" don't exist in the IoM only heroes
That is of course, unless they just happen to spring an unprovoked attack to slaughter some Sisters of Battle that happend to be flying by Fenris (e.g. "The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris") or turn and tear into the backs of their own kind as soon as a bigger "Alpha" like Huron Blackheart promises better spoils (e.g. The Wolf of Fenris).
Hell, whatever bad has been written about the Grey Knights sacrifice of Sisters, at least they did it to fight against some daemonic shenenigan. The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.
TheGamer555 wrote:Grey knights, minis the exterminatus they are pretty good guys who kill deamons and chaos
Up until the moment that they need to be 'more holier' and bathe in the blood of Adepta Sororitas to battle minions of Khorne. (for instant headache, stop and think about it for a moment)
Zweischneid wrote:The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.
NOT exactly what happened. In fluff they invaded and started rounding people up IIRC, before being attacked by the SW.
BTW: the Tau pheromone thing is now up in the air as to being still in or not (meaning that along with a lot of the other stuff in Xenology, it's probably on it's way out) The Inquisition thinks that's how it works, but thus far, they have never found any actual proof of it. And there's the minor detail that it wouldn't work on anyone with their helmet on, as Tau armor suits, even the regular soldier ones, are full NBC sealed....
Why do people keep backing the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy? The Inquisition are super bad, trying to prevent the rebirth of the Emperor (y'all know about that? Look up Sensei or Star Child). Most likely because high up in the organisation they are corrupt. The emperor hates religion , so the Ecclesiarchy are f!@#s by default. They have created an army (even though they weren't allowed to). And go around killing in the Emperors name, even though he would disapprove (reminds me of real life).
Anyone who defies those two is ok in my book.
Besides, humanity must be destroyed to end Chaos. Go the Orks.
Notes from the Space Wolves' Codex, since many of you have apparently not read it.
pg 3, ..."their headstrong personalities and inherent sense of justice means that the SWs are forever waging war against the evils of the galaxy,"
pg 19, Honour's End: ..."the Flesh Tearers continue thier indiscriminate killing even after the Chaos renegades have been driven away. Despite Chapter Master Seth's insistence that his men are purging those that have been tainted by the presence of Chaos, the Space Wolves are outraged and attack the Flesh Tearers at once."
pg 19, "The Battle for Montberg Spaceport: "Imperial Command issues a high ruling for all Imperial forces to withdraw and leave the settlers of Thressiax to their fate so the Tyranids can be exterminated from space. Bran Redmaw, resupplying upon thresiax at the time, objects fiercely to this dictate. Though he himself cannot leave the front lines, he sends two squads Grey hunters to reinforce the vital spaceport of Montberg so the people of Thressiax can evacuate."
pg 23, 1st Armageddon War, Aftermath: "When Logan Grimnar heard of the treatment of his human allies upon Armageddon he flew into a great rage, and the insults and vows he rained upon the Lord Adepts of the Administratum would have made an Ork blush. The incident fell short of violence by the smallest of margins; only the counsel of Ulrik the Slayer stayed Grimnar's hand, lest civil war consume the rest of the tortured planet below. Still, since that day Grimnar has held an abiding hatred for the Aministratum, and his vows of vengeance for the heroes of Armageddon will one day be fulfilled."
pg 56, Logan Grimnar, The Great Wolf: "To say Logan is popular is to say the stars in the night sky are plentiful. He is the warrior king of the SWs, a wise and cunning leader of men whose adulation borders upon worship on many imperial worlds."
pg 95. " We maybe few, and our enemies many. Yet so long as there remains one of us still fighting, one who still rages in the name of justice and truth, then by the Allfather, the galaxy shall yet know hope" -- Ragnar Blackmane
I would quote from "A Thousand Sons", but I loaned it to a friend. The Emperor tells all at Nikaea that any that defy him he will destoryed. The fact that the Custodes and the Sillent Sisterhood were there clearly shows the Wolves had the Emperor's sanction. And both "A thousand Sons" and Porspero Burns" imply that this is not the first legion the Wolves have destroyed.
Magnus was doomed from the very begining. Tzeencth manipulated Magnus and Russ into the actions that led to the burning of Prospero. He wanted neither to stop the Heresy.
Zweischneid wrote:I wouldn't place too much credit in A Thousand Sons either way.
First, BL has always noted that they are taking their "own take" on the universe. With respect to Space Wolves, that could well mean moving a bit off from the canon because 1000 pages of roaring, drunk Vikings gets tedious fast.
Second, that particular book is set during the Horus Heresy, when Marines by and large were supposed far more rational, the Imperium far more enlightend, and everything a far, far cry from the superstitious "Dark Age" they fell into after the Heresy and in 40K. Again, with respect to Space Wolves, that likely applies ten times over as they've "mythologized" their past, their Primarch and how the Universe works even more than most.
Third, that particular book set during the Horus Heresy is further unique in trying to "flip" the usual perspective and present one of the formly "bad guys" as good guys and one of the formerly "good guys" as bad guys. Straining some established concepts to make that work was likely inevitable.
Fourth, even considering the 1 to 3 above, your reference is with respect to the Primarch, who by and large tend to play a "special role" anyhow, so I wouldn't take that as overtly representative of Space Wolves more generally (even Space Wolves in 30.000, not 40.000, presented as (in broad narrative roles) villains rather than heroes, and in a BL publication, rather than a GW-main publication).
It's funny you should write all that, considering a good chunk of the evidence presented is from Prospero Burns, which sets the Space Wolves as protagonists. Russ may be smarter than he appears, but the rest of the Wolves appear pretty darn stupid. There's one guy who believes that all humans are useless if they aren't Space Marines, another still clings to the primitive superstitions of his tribal roots, and we see up close and personal both the culture they originate from (these people may be using Sky Magic! Let's paint our faces and slaughter every man, woman and child!) and how they live and interact with others (sit around in the dark, wet leopard growling at each other and playing dice, and lording over the "mortals" while working them to death). Yes, Russ is not a great representation of his Legion; they are in fact far worse.
A thousand or however many years later, we have Battle for the Fang, another Space Wolves-centric book. We have a Space Wolf character who urges caution and thinking clearly and not running off half-cocked across the universe to chase down hints of Magnus, and he is looked down upon by the rest of his Chapter as a big giant pussy and not "Space Wolf-like". The Chapter Master gladly sacrifices hundreds of his warriors, and indeed, the future of their whole Chapter, all for the opportunity to ineffectually gnash and bite at his perceived enemies.
And now you would argue that in the far darker and more primitive era of the 41st millennium, the Space Wolves are somehow more humane and mellow than they were in the 31st? This might be the only argument that finds some purchase, since Logan Grimnar comes across as a big softy. It doesn't make up for thousands of years of savagery, however, and it could be said that under Logan's auspices, the Space Wolves' policies towards the rest of the Imperium are borderline treasonous, if not outright renegade.
Kavish wrote:Space Wolves are heroic psychos. "Good guys"? No.
Why do people keep backing the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy? The Inquisition are super bad, trying to prevent the rebirth of the Emperor (y'all know about that? Look up Sensei or Star Child). Most likely because high up in the organisation they are corrupt. The emperor hates religion , so the Ecclesiarchy are f!@#s by default. They have created an army (even though they weren't allowed to). And go around killing in the Emperors name, even though he would disapprove (reminds me of real life).
The Inquisition is not preventing the rebirth of the Emperor, there are multiple sects that are divided on what to do because they don't know what result this would have. Civil war? Collapse of the golden throne barrier and a full-on daemonic invasion of Terra? The Inquisition was set up with the blessing of the Emperor through his proxy Malcador, and the inner circle are said to be granted audiences to commune with him. As for his hate of religion, the Emperor is nothing if not a creature of necessity. The Imperial Cult is all that keeps the Imperium together in the 41st millennium, so he would embrace it for lack of better options. When they started acting up and getting too full of themselves, he guided the Sisters of Battle to WTFpwn Vandire and all his ilk.
The SW are the only SM chapter that I have ever liked. I liked them because out of all of the SM chapters they seemed to retain their humanity. They seem to genuinely enjoy life both in the service and out. They live by their emotions, yet still have the intelligence and cunning needed to be the best at what they do. They honor and respect those who have fought with them and will forever fight for them with honor. They buck authority when they don't agree with it. Sometimes someone has to stand up and tell "the man" no. Just because their traditions may seem outdated, doesn't mean that they are wrong.
Space wolves will always be vikings in space in my mind. They fight the brutal fight, simply because it works. The fact that they have fun doing it is of little consequence as long as the results are for the benefit of the IOM as a whole, not necessarily for the benefit of the ruling political power .
Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, they act like savages, but that's because they all grew up on a savage planet. And really, it's just their planet's warrior-culture - saying that they're savages is like calling indigenous peoples "savage" for their practices.
Yes, calling savage people with savage practices "savages" is wrong.
Anyway, I'll concede that moral outrage against the Space Wolves is probably misplaced, since the whole thing was planned by Tzeench and there's no getting around that. Russ and his dogs were downright despicable and made it too easy, but Logan's wolves are cut from a slightly different cloth. They are no less hateable due to their special snowflake status in the fluff and rules, but as a citizen of the 41st millennium, I would probably much rather run into Space Wolves than say, Black Templar, Flesh Tearers or Dark Angels.
Kavish wrote:Space Wolves are heroic psychos. "Good guys"? No.
Why do people keep backing the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy? The Inquisition are super bad, trying to prevent the rebirth of the Emperor (y'all know about that? Look up Sensei or Star Child). Most likely because high up in the organisation they are corrupt. The emperor hates religion , so the Ecclesiarchy are f!@#s by default. They have created an army (even though they weren't allowed to). And go around killing in the Emperors name, even though he would disapprove (reminds me of real life).
The Inquisition is not preventing the rebirth of the Emperor, there are multiple sects that are divided on what to do because they don't know what result this would have. Civil war? Collapse of the golden throne barrier and a full-on daemonic invasion of Terra? The Inquisition was set up with the blessing of the Emperor through his proxy Malcador, and the inner circle are said to be granted audiences to commune with him. As for his hate of religion, the Emperor is nothing if not a creature of necessity. The Imperial Cult is all that keeps the Imperium together in the 41st millennium, so he would embrace it for lack of better options. When they started acting up and getting too full of themselves, he guided the Sisters of Battle to WTFpwn Vandire and all his ilk.
With the rebirth of the Emperor the golden throne barrier would be obsolete, no?
I guess your right about the Ecclesiarchy. I still don't like them.
Back on topic; Nobody is perfect. What is a "good guy" anyway. All in all, they (SW) are one of the most likeable chapters.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, they act like savages, but that's because they all grew up on a savage planet. And really, it's just their planet's warrior-culture - saying that they're savages is like calling indigenous peoples "savage" for their practices.
Yes, calling savage people with savage practices "savages" is wrong.
Back on topic; Nobody is perfect. What is a "good guy" anyway. All in all, they (SW) are one of the most likeable chapters.
Sw are hardly one of the most like able chapters. Obviously this is a matter of opinion. However, it seems to me that to like the sw one must ignore or justify their particular flavor of extreme arrogance, ignorance, hypocrasy, and barbarism.
Also, the fluff from any codex always casts its faction in the best light (maybe not de, they revel in their evil). C:SM tells us that ultra smurphs are the epitome of everything all space marines should aspire to. C:BA tells us that BA's are the noblest of space marines because they know that one day they'll go crazy so they spend all the time they have available to them protecting the imperium. Codices are like propaganda, the fluff novels seem to give a more accurate description of things.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah, they act like savages, but that's because they all grew up on a savage planet. And really, it's just their planet's warrior-culture - saying that they're savages is like calling indigenous peoples "savage" for their practices.
Yes, calling savage people with savage practices "savages" is wrong.
Savage is ultimately a perspective.
I would say it's not so much a matter of perspective, as a sliding scale. Even the most civilized humans look like poop-flinging monkeys to Eldar, for example. Wolves are pretty far down on that scale.
Phiasco II wrote:Sw are hardly one of the most like able chapters. Obviously this is a matter of opinion. However, it seems to me that to like the sw one must ignore or justify their particular flavor of extreme arrogance, ignorance, hypocrasy, and barbarism.
Also, the fluff from any codex always casts its faction in the best light (maybe not de, they revel in their evil). C:SM tells us that ultra smurphs are the epitome of everything all space marines should aspire to. C:BA tells us that BA's are the noblest of space marines because they know that one day they'll go crazy so they spend all the time they have available to them protecting the imperium. Codices are like propaganda, the fluff novels seem to give a more accurate description of things.
Well, to be completely fair, the average citizen of the 41st millennium is not privy to the inner workings of Astartes enough to be aware of any incidents of arrogance, ignorance or hypocrisy. With barbarism you may have a point, since Wolves go out of their way to cultivate that image, but then again, most citizens get all four of those things in full measure from their local Administratum on a daily basis, so getting that from Space Marines would be no big shock and they do have the whole larger-than-life-epic-hero thing going for them.
But yes, codices are essentially propaganda for their faction, and whatever philanthropic actions a Chapter may undertake is unlikely to spread to the citizentry. I doubt there are people walking around saying, "Hey, did you hear about that giant daemonic invasion of Armaggeddon? Well, apparently the Administratum and Inquisition decided to castrate and imprison all the survivors, but Logan totally disagreed with them. What a swell guy!"
Its actually probably a very small number (when looking at that IOM as a whole) of people who have even ever seen a space marine, let alone fought along side one. I'm sure the average citizen thinks all chapters are pretty swell guys, the propoganda machine being one of the more finely tuned instrucments in all of the IOM.
Everything that they have ever heard regarding space marines was done with honor, precision, and efficiency with uncalculable losses to the enemy and a tragic fallen hero who's efforts will be sorely missed in the battles to follow.
So to the average IOM citizen, unless the culling is actually happening to you, all SM factions are probably the good guys. And it not like it has ever been anything different. The SM and current ruling system have been around for 10,000 years. Its not exactly like anything has changed from anyone perspective. Even a mans great great great grandpa would tell the same story as the kid looking out his front window today.
Zweischneid wrote:The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.
NOT exactly what happened. In fluff they invaded and started rounding people up IIRC, before being attacked by the SW.
.
I must have missed the invasion there somewhere>
"A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns" (p. 19).
Where exactly is the invasion before the Wolves start shooting without warning? Rounding up people? They haven't even landed!!! Are you just making gak up to justify your view of the Wolves instead of reading?
Zweischneid wrote:The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.
NOT exactly what happened. In fluff they invaded and started rounding people up IIRC, before being attacked by the SW.
.
I must have missed the invasion there somewhere>
"A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns" (p. 19).
Where exactly is the invasion before the Wolves start shooting without warning? Rounding up people? They haven't even landed!!! Are you just making gak up to justify your view of the Wolves instead of reading?
I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.
As for sw "cultivating" the image of barbarians whilst really being quite clever and intelligent, I don't buy it. Russ yes, he was a primarch after all, but not his mongrels.
One of my favorite quotes comes from Terry Pratchet. I don't know the exact wording off the top of my head but it goes something like this.
Carrot was indeed simple. Where people made the mistake was confusing simple for stupid.
And thats just it, SW seem brutal, barbaric, and simplistic on the surface. But they are never stupid about how they do things. And this gives them an edge. Brutality works, just ask the orks. However, if there is intelligence behind the brutality, where you fight on your terms, you play the roll of hunter never prey, then you can cultivate an aura of fear in your enemies, thus making your job even that much easier.
Jayden63 wrote:One of my favorite quotes comes from Terry Pratchet. I don't know the exact wording off the top of my head but it goes something like this.
Carrot was indeed simple. Where people made the mistake was confusing simple for stupid.
And thats just it, SW seem brutal, barbaric, and simplistic on the surface. But they are never stupid about how they do things. And this gives them an edge. Brutality works, just ask the orks. However, if there is intelligence behind the brutality, where you fight on your terms, you play the roll of hunter never prey, then you can cultivate an aura of fear in your enemies, thus making your job even that much easier.
While I really hate the effort to compare Carrot to the SW, a huge stretch IMHO, I must admit that I love the discworld reference. Infact, I lol'd when I read your post because I'm listening to another of Pratchet's books even as I did so (Hat Full of Sky). Great book series. Not quite as grim dark as 40k though
I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.
I thought Fenris was part of the Imperium.
Either way, I don't disagree.
It just boggles my mind that, on one side, the self-less and heroic sacrifice of Sisters to actually fend of a major, existential daemonic threat is seen as evidence of "holier than thou", while the random surprise-slaughter of Sisters because you just don't like visitors from the very same humanity you supposedly defend is perfectly in line with the untainted heroics of the "only good guys" in 40K.
Somewhere in there is a serious problem of double-standards.
I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.
So if I'm an IRS auditor, and I go to the state of Texas with my buddies (of course telling them that "I'm coming to check out your state for potential tax evasion"), then it's perfectly fine for the Texas National Guard and State Police to open fire as soon as I am in range of their tanks and artillery? Because "Texas is OUR state and no other?"
I suppose the Space Wolves fail to realize that Fenris is an Imperial world first and foremost.
As for your second part, not it hasn't been "their" system. It has been an Imperial system, from which the Space Wolves were able to recruit and were granted Governance by the grace of the Emperor.
dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).
They sound like Heretics to me
In all honesty though, this is part of what makes the SW's a very love them/hate them faction. Some people like that they often come off as the "good guys". Others find it to be hypocritical and very forced and/or sappy in a bad way, the "we're tough but really are sweethearts, we're never on the wrong side!" which sorta defeats the whole psycho-indoctrinated-genetically-engineered-super-soldier-fighting-for-a-malevolent-empire thing.
Avoid equating them to any real life organizations like the US Marine Corps, too much controversy and imagined parallels and wide divergences of thought/action/etc.
That said, don't doubt for a moment that they won't do evil things. They wouldn't bat an eye to slaughtering Eldar/Tau civilians, and probably don't pay a whole lot of attention to collateral damage either with regards to humans.
I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.
So if I'm an IRS auditor, and I go to the state of Texas with my buddies (of course telling them that "I'm coming to check out your state for potential tax evasion"), then it's perfectly fine for the Texas National Guard and State Police to open fire as soon as I am in range of their tanks and artillery? Because "Texas is OUR state and no other?"
I suppose the Space Wolves fail to realize that Fenris is an Imperial world first and foremost.
As for your second part, not it hasn't been "their" system. It has been an Imperial system, from which the Space Wolves were able to recruit and were granted Governance by the grace of the Emperor.
Depends on your mentality. The Ecclesiarchy is not the Administration. They have nothing to do with taxes, levies, citizenship, etc. The stuff that makes the IOM go round. The church was there looking for heretics, using their own definition of heretic. The citizens of Fenris have been allowed to do what they do since the days of the Emperor and the first foundings. Why should the SW allow themselves to be audited when they were given Governance (as you so put it) by the big E himself?
Also in the short fluff piece it just said that the wolves fired upon the ships coming into their system. Said nothing of boarding parties and hanging heads on spikes, as near as I read it could just have been warning shots in the same way an old geezer yells "Git off my lawn" at passing kids. It was only when the Ecclesiarchy showed up with fleets of sisters that the Wolves truly bared their fangs and things got messy. The Ecclesiarchy brought this on themselves by choosing force rather than diplomacy.
And yes, the Fenris system is their system. Just like Ultramar and its system is under the control of the Ultramarines, and X system is under the control of X marines. Each chapter is responsible for the defense, propagation, and maintenance of their systems. Each have a different opinion on how to accomplish this Govenership, but as long as it all functions for the good of the IOM each are usually left to their devices. Sure the individual chapters, administration, and who knows how many other organizations might disagree on the best way to deal with it, but that doesn't mean they are wrong.
Also the Wolves have been doing what they have been doing since before the HH, pretty much ever since Russ was found by the Emperor. Thats a long history of fighting the good fight. Its the overall body of work not necessarily the how/why of the individual skirmishes that matter after 10,000 years. Of course mistakes have been made, collaterial damage of the unfortunate kind has happened somewhere to someone as a direct result of the Wolves actions. But its the same for all the legions now chapters. Also while its obvious that the Wolves haven't won every contest they have been involved in they win enough (along with all other SM chapters and/or guard regiments) to keep the IOM in a stalemate of perpetual war. Just like the fluff background intended.
I'm sure the Ecclesiarchy broadcast something along the lines that they were visiting. You don't just show up in anothers occupied system without some sort of announcement. Then when asked why they were visiting and the Wolves were told they were to stand down and allow them access planet side to asset their heathinistic ways. Well, I can see why the wolves responded how they did. Fenris is their system, has been for over 10,000 years, no reason to change now.
So if I'm an IRS auditor, and I go to the state of Texas with my buddies (of course telling them that "I'm coming to check out your state for potential tax evasion"), then it's perfectly fine for the Texas National Guard and State Police to open fire as soon as I am in range of their tanks and artillery? Because "Texas is OUR state and no other?"
I suppose the Space Wolves fail to realize that Fenris is an Imperial world first and foremost.
As for your second part, not it hasn't been "their" system. It has been an Imperial system, from which the Space Wolves were able to recruit and were granted Governance by the grace of the Emperor.
Depends on your mentality. The Ecclesiarchy is not the Administration. They have nothing to do with taxes, levies, citizenship, etc. The stuff that makes the IOM go round. The church was there looking for heretics, using their own definition of heretic. The citizens of Fenris have been allowed to do what they do since the days of the Emperor and the first foundings. Why should the SW allow themselves to be audited when they were given Governance (as you so put it) by the big E himself?
Also in the short fluff piece it just said that the wolves fired upon the ships coming into their system. Said nothing of boarding parties and hanging heads on spikes, as near as I read it could just have been warning shots in the same way an old geezer yells "Git off my lawn" at passing kids. It was only when the Ecclesiarchy showed up with fleets of sisters that the Wolves truly bared their fangs and things got messy. The Ecclesiarchy brought this on themselves by choosing force rather than diplomacy.
And yes, the Fenris system is their system. Just like Ultramar and its system is under the control of the Ultramarines, and X system is under the control of X marines. Each chapter is responsible for the defense, propagation, and maintenance of their systems. Each have a different opinion on how to accomplish this Govenership, but as long as it all functions for the good of the IOM each are usually left to their devices. Sure the individual chapters, administration, and who knows how many other organizations might disagree on the best way to deal with it, but that doesn't mean they are wrong.
Also the Wolves have been doing what they have been doing since before the HH, pretty much ever since Russ was found by the Emperor. Thats a long history of fighting the good fight. Its the overall body of work not necessarily the how/why of the individual skirmishes that matter after 10,000 years. Of course mistakes have been made, collaterial damage of the unfortunate kind has happened somewhere to someone as a direct result of the Wolves actions. But its the same for all the legions now chapters. Also while its obvious that the Wolves haven't won every contest they have been involved in they win enough (along with all other SM chapters and/or guard regiments) to keep the IOM in a stalemate of perpetual war. Just like the fluff background intended.
I see your point but unfortunately, the Ecclesiarchy has a seat on the High-Lords of Terra, the Space Wolves do not. This means that they are a higher authority, and their edicts are relevant to the governance of the Imperium.
And while the Space Wolves are allowed to govern their world, that does not mean that they can ignore Imperial law. I could govern the state of Texas, but I could not ignore Federal Law (at least not without causing conflict and looking silly (California)).
And even if they didn't cause any casualties, simply shooting at an official of the government who is ordained by said government and sent by a member of said government is to commit a crime, in my book. Even if you're just trying to get them to go away: it's not the government's job to just "go away" when they see something awry.
EDIT:
As for fighting the "good fight" that doesn't exempt you from the edicts of the Imperium either. Many, many, many groups have been declared heretics or traitors because of some perceived slight, even if they fought the good fight.
I see your point but unfortunately, the Ecclesiarchy has a seat on the High-Lords of Terra, the Space Wolves do not. This means that they are a higher authority, and their edicts are relevant to the governance of the Imperium.
And while the Space Wolves are allowed to govern their world, that does not mean that they can ignore Imperial law. I could govern the state of Texas, but I could not ignore Federal Law (at least not without causing conflict and looking silly (California)).
And even if they didn't cause any casualties, simply shooting at an official of the government who is ordained by said government and sent by a member of said government is to commit a crime, in my book. Even if you're just trying to get them to go away: it's not the government's job to just "go away" when they see something awry.
EDIT:
As for fighting the "good fight" that doesn't exempt you from the edicts of the Imperium either. Many, many, many groups have been declared heretics or traitors because of some perceived slight, even if they fought the good fight.
And to be fair, the fact that they are a first founding chapter of the champions of the IOM as set up by the big E does give them some armor against retaliatory actions for their transgressions. It just is the way that it is. In a dystopian future the rebels, those still retaining their free will, even if outlaws, can become idols and heros. Maybe they do rely on this tag more than other chapters. Always pushing the limits as it were. But that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as you still focus your efforts on the good of Man. Which no one can say the SW have not done.
And this is why some of us really like the SW. They are willing to tell the higher ups to go stick it when they start poking around. Its also just a simple situation as that we the readers don't necessarily like the same things. I myself cant stand the BA for all the reason why my buddy loves them. When you deal with things like bucking authority and/or heretical practices its rather easy to sit on one side of the fence and not everyone who reads the fluff is going to choose the same side.
Also note, I have never once claimed the SW to be the good guys of the SM chapters (just to stay on the OP topic). I fully recognize that they are capable and have commited various heinous acts of violence, prejudice, and the like. Its just out of all the chapters (for me anyway) they seem like they retained some of their humanity or even free will in the transformation into the perceived universal standard that is a Space Marine of the IOM.
Kaldor wrote:The space wolves are biggoted, anti-authoritarian, drunkards with anger management issues. They aren't some noble oversight committee who 'calls the Imperium on their BS', they are a spoiled teenager who screams 'you can't tell me what to do!' and throws a tantrum.
By the token you presented you say they are knights of old and have a code of chivalry. However "good" means different things to different people. For example I may think good means donating much of my money but my neighbor might think good is volentering at the homeless shelter. The Tau are for the good of everyone but people think they are bad. The IG and SM are guardians of mankind, but they don't have code so are they bad? For your answer I'd answer no but you do have a point.
Zweischneid wrote:The Wolves apparently slaughter the Ecclesiarchy just because they can.
NOT exactly what happened. In fluff they invaded and started rounding people up IIRC, before being attacked by the SW.
.
I must have missed the invasion there somewhere>
"A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns" (p. 19).
Where exactly is the invasion before the Wolves start shooting without warning? Rounding up people? They haven't even landed!!! Are you just making gak up to justify your view of the Wolves instead of reading?
Ah, I see, we're talking about two different incidents. I was talking about the first one where Cardinal Bucharis attacked Fenris with most of Battlefleet Pacificus, invaded, and laid siege to the Fang. (Sisters of Battle, 2nd Edition, Page 39 and 40)
Crimson Devil wrote:Notes from the Space Wolves' Codex, since many of you have apparently not read it.
pg 3, ..."their headstrong personalities and inherent sense of justice means that the SWs are forever waging war against the evils of the galaxy,"
It is not and has never been the task of a spacemarine chapter to judge who is right or wrong. This job usualy goes to people who have a better understanding of the Imperium.
Crimson Devil wrote:
pg 19, Honour's End: ..."the Flesh Tearers continue thier indiscriminate killing even after the Chaos renegades have been driven away. Despite Chapter Master Seth's insistence that his men are purging those that have been tainted by the presence of Chaos, the Space Wolves are outraged and attack the Flesh Tearers at once. "
As savage as the Flesh Tearers are, they might have had a point. The taint of chaos is so insidious, so utterly dangerous that the wholescale slaughter of those who came into contact with it can be justified.
Allowing a possibly tainted population to survive can have bad repercussions, although the final decision on what to do with them should lie with the legitimate authorities and not the Astartes.
Crimson Devil wrote:
pg 19, "The Battle for Montberg Spaceport: "Imperial Command issues a high ruling for all Imperial forces to withdraw and leave the settlers of Thressiax to their fate so the Tyranids can be exterminated from space. Bran Redmaw, resupplying upon thresiax at the time, objects fiercely to this dictate. Though he himself cannot leave the front lines, he sends two squads Grey hunters to reinforce the vital spaceport of Montberg so the people of Thressiax can evacuate."
That's actualy a quite honorable deed although Imperial Command's decision was probably justified ( although one has to wonder what two squads could achieve against the Hivefleet that the Imperial Guard couldn't).
Crimson Devil wrote:
pg 23, 1st Armageddon War, Aftermath: "When Logan Grimnar heard of the treatment of his human allies upon Armageddon he flew into a great rage, and the insults and vows he rained upon the Lord Adepts of the Administratum would have made an Ork blush. The incident fell short of violence by the smallest of margins; only the counsel of Ulrik the Slayer stayed Grimnar's hand, lest civil war consume the rest of the tortured planet below. Still, since that day Grimnar has held an abiding hatred for the Aministratum, and his vows of vengeance for the heroes of Armageddon will one day be fulfilled."
Eliminating the survivors of Armageddon was the logical decision. The war was a full scale daemonic incursion lead by a daemonprimarch and noone, except perhaps the Astartes and servants of the Inquisition, survives such a thing unscathed. Allowing the taint of chaos to spread would have possibly caused much more death and misery than doing what the Administratum did to the people of Armageddon.
dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).
Unit1126PLL wrote:I see your point but unfortunately, the Ecclesiarchy has a seat on the High-Lords of Terra, the Space Wolves do not. This means that they are a higher authority, and their edicts are relevant to the governance of the Imperium.
But the Ecclesiarchy is not alone on the council - there's usually 12-15 High Lords aren't there? To get all of them to actually back the church against a first founding Chapter is likely almost impossible without a really good reason, so the church has no real help from that seat.
Very interesting so far here is my first chunk of change.
- Salamanders are considered very good.
- Black Templars are zealous efficient jerks who care more about killing xenos than protecting civilians (See Helsreach)
- Raven Guard go out of their way to help the little guys (Imperial Guard regiments with little to no support and excel at killing orks). Their own organization is pretty loose as to give maximum flexiblity.
As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."
As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."
I don't remember anything like that being said, so a quote is definitely going to be needed.
Kavish wrote:I guess your right about the Ecclesiarchy. I still don't like them.
The Ecclesiarchy are the worst of the worst. But they're supposed to be. They're a hyperbolic representation of the extremes to which an extremely powerful state sponsored religious organization can be. Essentially the worst of every theocracy in the history of mankind rolled into one.
The Inquisition operates in the same gray area as everyone else. Their ruthlessness is often misunderstood by others in the Imperium, however, ultimately, their goals are right. If the Space Wolves and the Inquisition have clashed, it is mostly because of their differing values, not typically because one is right and the other is wrong.
By my math the incident described on page 19 of the Space Wolves Codex comes approximately 500 years after the First Armageddon War.
In the aftermath of the first Armageddon war, the Space Wolves knew what fate awaited those found less than pure in the eyes of the powers that be. They also knew that they themselves would not be found pure as their beliefs were far too divergent to satisfy the stringent inspection that was to come.
Also, as Logan had all but come to blows with the powers that be at the end of the First Armageddon War there was every reason to believe that this was intended to be some sort of pretense for a payback.
So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.
Jefffar wrote:By my math the incident described on page 19 of the Space Wolves Codex comes approximately 500 years after the First Armageddon War.
In the aftermath of the first Armageddon war, the Space Wolves knew what fate awaited those found less than pure in the eyes of the powers that be. They also knew that they themselves would not be found pure as their beliefs were far too divergent to satisfy the stringent inspection that was to come.
Also, as Logan had all but come to blows with the powers that be at the end of the First Armageddon War there was every reason to believe that this was intended to be some sort of pretense for a payback.
So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.
Thanx, now I feel much better about what my DA do.
My two cents:
1. Salamanders, Raven Guard (to an extent) and Ultramarines are good, always looking out for the civies. Also IIRC when the Ultras and Tau had to join up to defeat the Necrons Calgar gave the Tau time to leave the planet before issuing exterminatus.
2.SW have their good and their bad points. While they may not be the best they're sertainly not as bad as:
3. The Grey Knights.
GK 1: I feel like being more holy today! How shall we do it?
GK 2: I know lets have a nice soak in some SOB blood"
GK 1: Great idea! I mean who can stop us?
So this is my opinion, I absolutely despise the Wolves, for after Reading "A Thousand Sons" i found them to be foolish and too battle hungry, how could they destroy their own brothers a millenia ago ( give or take ) and now in the 41st Millenium still belive their predecessers were right in doing so? How can they be so sure in mind that they destroyed followers of Chaos in the name of the Emperor? I know it was Horus that fooled Russ into attacking Magnus but i still hate them for the way their mentality in the 41st Millenium , for still being blind to the truth to the Events on Prospero, and believing what they did was right. But thats just my opinion. And as for the US Marines reference, I do indeed see a bit of the Wolf in them, Infantry Marines at least, Im a US Navy Corpsman ( an Apothecary basically)
Erik_Morkai wrote:As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."
Of course, being Magnus he probably meant it in as insulting a way possible, as in: the Emperor created the Space Marines to be savage killers, and that is exactly what the Space Wolves are, nothing more.
As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."
I don't remember anything like that being said, so a quote is definitely going to be needed.
Found it.
"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as purest of us. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."
- Magnus, From Battle of the Fang
Upon looking at the statue of Russ if I recall
"imagine that - The master of Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly, you were the attack dog of the Emperor."
- Magnus, Battle of the Fang
As for the Wolves, Magnus said it himself (quote is more or less accurate as I do not have the book next to me) He describes the Wolves "The perfect incarnation of my father's vision."
I don't remember anything like that being said, so a quote is definitely going to be needed.
Found it.
"I no longer think of them as animals, Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as purest of us. Incorruptible. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision."
- Magnus, From Battle of the Fang
Yes. The idea of the Space Marines was to conquer the Galaxy. To be single minded killing machines. To be loyal to the Emperor and his vision eternally. But most Legions weren't. Many were pleagued with imperfection. The Thousand Sons were dabbling in psykic powers. The Emperor's Children far too concerned with perfection of everything (ironic that it could be called an imperfection). The Word Bearers defying his Will and claiming Him to be a god. You can find a "problem" with pretty much every Legion.
And then there is the Space Wolves. I don't like them, but they seem to be the truest form of Astartes. Again though, I don't like them.
Jefffar wrote:
So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.
Again, this overlooks that every previous (known) visit to Fenris by said was begun with orbital bombardment once they got in range, as well...
So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.
Maybe that's a clue right there. No one else is immune to inspection for possible corruption, why should the sw be? To go so far as to attack your own allies kinda implies you have something to hide. The sw are just this side of chaos. Like I've said before, the chaos gods have no better tool to use against the imperium then their mongrel pawns, the sw.
Kind of thought a lot about this too. They live by a code that is uniformly dedicated and loyal, regardless of chastization by their peers or the inquisition. They're loyal to their past, their traditions and the emperor and his will.
So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.
Maybe that's a clue right there. No one else is immune to inspection for possible corruption, why should the sw be? To go so far as to attack your own allies kinda implies you have something to hide. The sw are just this side of chaos. Like I've said before, the chaos gods have no better tool to use against the imperium then their mongrel pawns, the sw.
Apothecary8404Talos wrote:So this is my opinion, I absolutely despise the Wolves, for after Reading "A Thousand Sons" i found them to be foolish and too battle hungry, how could they destroy their own brothers a millenia ago ( give or take ) and now in the 41st Millenium still belive their predecessers were right in doing so? How can they be so sure in mind that they destroyed followers of Chaos in the name of the Emperor? I know it was Horus that fooled Russ into attacking Magnus but i still hate them for the way their mentality in the 41st Millenium , for still being blind to the truth to the Events on Prospero, and believing what they did was right. But thats just my opinion. And as for the US Marines reference, I do indeed see a bit of the Wolf in them, Infantry Marines at least, Im a US Navy Corpsman ( an Apothecary basically)
Having been a Marine, I think we're a little less hairy and a lot more disciplined, lol.
Probably drink the same amount.
As far as Prospero and the Space Wolves go, you have to remember what you know, as a reader/gamer, is far more than the average person in 40K knows.
What do the Space Wolves know? The Emperor said the Thousand Sons were bad, tainted, and had to be destroyed. They went to Prospero, found mutated Space Marines, and destroyed them. Subsequently, they've seen plenty of evidence of the 1KSons working for Chaos. Seems like that pretty much confirms that they were right all along. They don't know even 10% of what we the readers know about what really happened, and probably would have no reason to believe it even if they did.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Having been a Marine, I think we're a little less hairy and a lot more disciplined, lol.
Probably drink the same amount.
I dunno about that, I've seen some, who were no credit to the uniform, who were both less disciplined AND hairier. Though their intense drunkenness probably contributed to the former and the ensuing barfight by pointing out the latter.
Remember kids, don't try this at home! Only the professional drunks at the Navy should ever, under any circumstances, pick fights with Marines, to then be extracted by their much more sober and better prepared (and looking) brother in law who then reminds them he told them so while laying some leathernecks out with a logging chain.
So yeah, the Wolves opened fire because they saw the inspection as the first step in an attempt to have them branded as heretics and traitors and exterminated, or worse.
Maybe that's a clue right there. No one else is immune to inspection for possible corruption, why should the sw be? To go so far as to attack your own allies kinda implies you have something to hide. The sw are just this side of chaos. Like I've said before, the chaos gods have no better tool to use against the imperium then their mongrel pawns, the sw.
As are the Blood Angels.
Blood Angels don't let stupid stubborn arrogant pride get in their way though. They know they will go crazy eventually, and spend their days defending the imperium with everything they've got. And when they feel the crazyness coming, they say, " send me in coach!" and charge headlong into impossible odds to assure that they die serving their Emprah. Sw, on the other hand, rationalize their assanine deeds by drunkenly declaring that they are in the right. Stupid pride won't let the sw allow themselves to be even inspected by the proper authorities, instead opening fire on them without hesitation, as has already been discussed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll use my own post to as an example of what I posted earlier. Fans of each faction will like their favorite, and perhaps not like others. Sw are just an extreme example of this as their attitude of "our means justifies the ends 'cause we know better then anyone else" is so asinine as to be extremely annoying.
Kaldor wrote:The space wolves are biggoted, anti-authoritarian, drunkards with anger management issues. They aren't some noble oversight committee who 'calls the Imperium on their BS', they are a spoiled teenager who screams 'you can't tell me what to do!' and throws a tantrum.
Phiasco II wrote:
I'll use my own post to as an example of what I posted earlier. Fans of each faction will like their favorite, and perhaps not like others. Sw are just an extreme example of this as their attitude of "our means justifies the ends 'cause we know better then anyone else" is so asinine as to be extremely annoying.
And this is how two people can read the same thing and come across with different ideas.
You said you see their attitudes as "our means justifies the ends 'cause we know better then anyone else"
I see it more as... Our means justifies the ends 'because this is how our fathers and their fathers and so on have done it since the days of Russ and its all worked out well so far."
If the Wolves have one heretical trait that makes them completely different from all the other loyalist SM factions, its probably that they actually love Russ more than the big E himself (but just barely). They follow the teachings of their father, who loved the emperor, thus they love the emperor, but only because of what Russ taught, not because of what the Emperor is. I imagine most other SM will still put the big E before even their own Primarch.
I still see the wolves as space vikings and as such tradition and superstition are very prominent in their way of doing things. If Russ said it was thus and the big E was ok with it, then its a tradition worth keeping and no cushion warmer in a dress is going to tell us otherwise. Its not because they think they know better, its just that what they know works, so why in the name of the Allfather would you let anyone question it.
Some may see that as an arrogant attitude, but then again, others believe that if it isn't broke, don't fix it.
Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.
Everyone thinks they're good. Besides, the Tau are only good relative to the rest of the setting. They're a society run by racist nutcases who utilize mindcontrol and don't flinch at the concept of sending innocents to their death. Except they're slightly more hesitant to kill than everyone else, because war is expensive.
bmoleski wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.
Talk about off-topic...
The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.
The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.
Using pheromones as a means of mind control to keep your populace in order isn't really good. Their "join us or die" ideology is far from good also.
They do not use mind control.The Codex says the imperial Speculates they do as they do not understand how they could be so loyal, and suggests it could be pheromones or some sort of psychic control - which shows they actually have absolutely no idea about it. Xenology also gets several things wrong so is not a good source of information.
They don't send innocents to their death either. Even drones aren't considered expendable.
And as far as i know there has not been any actual "join or die" situations, so some examples would be nice. They didn't kill the Vespid when they refused.
Jayden63 wrote:If the Wolves have one heretical trait that makes them completely different from all the other loyalist SM factions, its probably that they actually love Russ more than the big E himself (but just barely). They follow the teachings of their father, who loved the emperor, thus they love the emperor, but only because of what Russ taught, not because of what the Emperor is. I imagine most other SM will still put the big E before even their own Primarch.
Mentlegen324 wrote:
They do not use mind control.The Codex says the imperial Speculates they do as they do not understand how they could be so loyal, and suggests it could be pheromones or some sort of psychic control - which shows they actually have absolutely no idea about it. Xenology also gets several things wrong so is not a good source of information.
They don't send innocents to their death either. Even drones aren't considered expendable.
And as far as i know there has not been any actual "join or die" situations, so some examples would be nice. They didn't kill the Vespid when they refused.
They ignored me when I brought this up as well as several other points. Frankly, I think every other post could be shouting that
A) the Ecclesiarchy had a long history of 'we're here for x' followed by 'commence orbital bombardment' leading up to them shooting down that load of priests. I can see the reaction in the fire control room: "Of course you are. Not like we haven't fallen for that one before. Open Fire.'
B) That the Tau thing has since been retconned from what it is to what the Inquisition thinks it is, due to the minor fact that it works without them being physically present and through the fully sealed armor of the Tau...
Phiasco II wrote:The sw are just this side of chaos.
Citation needed.
Sorry, did I say I was quoting anything, or that I was citing anything other then my own opinion? Oh wait, I didn't. As to why I think they are just this side if chaos, it's their attitude. The sw attitude is that they'll do whatever the hell they want, and kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree. Sounds like chaos to me.
Jayden63 wrote:If the Wolves have one heretical trait that makes them completely different from all the other loyalist SM factions, its probably that they actually love Russ more than the big E himself (but just barely). They follow the teachings of their father, who loved the emperor, thus they love the emperor, but only because of what Russ taught, not because of what the Emperor is. I imagine most other SM will still put the big E before even their own Primarch.
You'd lose that bet. See Horus Heresy.
I think, 40k is much different than 30k. You have a LOT of SM that don't really have any ties to a Primarch. They (imho) would therefore not follow a Primarch over the Emperor. For the Founding chapters and ones that still hold onto their gene-father most of them would follow their Primarch over the Emperor. Look how very few SM did not follow their traitor Primarchs. A tiny handful (relatively speaking). The precedence for ultimate loyalty to the Emperor is pretty damn small.
And I would consider 'ultimate loyalty to the Emperor' turning against your own primarch, considering how deeply we know devotion to Primarchs to be.
Loyalty to a primarch over loyalty to the Emprah was a major part of the horus heresy. Remember that the first thing horus did was purge his own ranks of his marines he knew to be loyal primarily to the Emprah rather to himself. I guess that's one more thing sw have in common with the traitor legions, if indeed they venerate Russ over the Emprah.
Phiasco II wrote:The sw attitude is that they'll do whatever the hell they want, and kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree. Sounds like chaos to me.
Once again, citation needed.
When do any of these "kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree(s)" happen?
LoneLictor wrote:If you read "A Thousand Sons" you wouldn't think Space Wolves were good guys. Furthermore, 40k has no faction that is good (though it does have a few good people, usually caught in the crossfire or being used by one faction).
This a million times over. The wolves are giant hypocrites who enjoy damning anyone but themselves to hell.
Jayden63 wrote:If the Wolves have one heretical trait that makes them completely different from all the other loyalist SM factions, its probably that they actually love Russ more than the big E himself (but just barely). They follow the teachings of their father, who loved the emperor, thus they love the emperor, but only because of what Russ taught, not because of what the Emperor is. I imagine most other SM will still put the big E before even their own Primarch.
You'd lose that bet. See Horus Heresy.
I was talking about the current armies in the 41st millennium since that we are looking for current "good guys" for the OP. I did use the phrase loyalist SM factions, clearly during the HH some guys were not so "loyal". Things were a whole lot different 10,000 years ago.
Phiasco II wrote:The sw attitude is that they'll do whatever the hell they want, and kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree. Sounds like chaos to me.
Once again, citation needed.
When do any of these "kill anyone who gets in the way or even disagree(s)" happen?
Anyone with books at there disposal at the moment want to throw in a few examples?
Off the top of my head: Horus- "Go kill Mangus, I know dad said very explicitly just to arrest him, but you should really just kill him" Russ- "Hot dang, I never liked him anyway, this is gonna be great!", GK's- "Good job fighting off the full on demonic incursion guys. Now, as per protocol, lets take care of the Guardsmen that may now be currupted" SW's- "How dare you do the sensible thing and ensure the safety of trillions by killing millions!?! We're gonna smuggle all the guardsmen we can off planet, AND we vow vengeance upon all who were doing the sensible thing!", "Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"
Just a few examples off the top of my head. And before you ask for more citation, I told you I don't have books on me, just using examples from earlier discussions. But clearly, unless I'm totally making these scenarios up, the SW have an attitude similar to that of a teenager eg- Don't tell me what to do!! I know better!! I do whatever I want!!
Phiasco II wrote:
Off the top of my head: Horus- "Go kill Mangus, I know dad said very explicitly just to arrest him, but you should really just kill him"
Horus ordered him to attack Magnus. Russ never received orders from the Emperor otherwise.
Phiasco II wrote:GK's- "Good job fighting off the full on demonic incursion guys. Now, as per protocol, lets take care of the Guardsmen that may now be currupted" SW's- "How dare you do the sensible thing and ensure the safety of trillions by killing millions!?! We're gonna smuggle all the guardsmen we can off planet, AND we vow vengeance upon all who were doing the sensible thing!",
You're making that one up. Such a thing never happened.
Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"
The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.
Phiasco II wrote:
Just a few examples off the top of my head. And before you ask for more citation, I told you I don't have books on me,
Perhaps you should refrain from continuing your argument until you have evidence then.
Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"
The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.
Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"
The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.
Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"
The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.
Maybe because they ARE......
Exactly. A clear cut case of self defense.
Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?
Phiasco II wrote:
Off the top of my head: Horus- "Go kill Mangus, I know dad said very explicitly just to arrest him, but you should really just kill him"
Horus ordered him to attack Magnus. Russ never received orders from the Emperor otherwise.
Lexicanum-
"The Primarch of the Thousand Sons Space Marines, Magnus, had ignored the Emperor's command to not dabble in sorcery. The Space Wolves were then ordered BY THE EMPEROR to bring Magnus before him to answer for this. Russ, however, was convinced by Horus to launch an attack on the Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate."
(I added the all caps)
DarknessEternal wrote:
Phiasco II wrote:GK's- "Good job fighting off the full on demonic incursion guys. Now, as per protocol, lets take care of the Guardsmen that may now be currupted" SW's- "How dare you do the sensible thing and ensure the safety of trillions by killing millions!?! We're gonna smuggle all the guardsmen we can off planet, AND we vow vengeance upon all who were doing the sensible thing!",
You're making that one up. Such a thing never happened.
Try the end of the first battle for Armageddon. C:GKpg 13:
"In the aftermath of battle, the Inquisition began a thorough programme of mindwipe and execution of those imperial Guardsmen and hive defenders who had taken part in the war in order to contain widespread knowledge of both Daemons and of the Grey Knights. However, many thousands of soldiers slipped through the tightening noose. This was perhaps because the scale of cull being attempted on Armageddon far surpassed any that had previously taken place, although matters were further complicated by the fact that Logan Grimnar, who vehemently abhorred such practices, did everything he could to inhibit the Inquisitions agents. Thus was the Inquisition given cause to pay closer attention to the deeds of the Space Wolves in the years that followed.
With their hand thus forced, the Inquisition and the Grey Knights were forced to extend the scope of their containment action, with bloody results for worlds that had never even heard of Armageddon....All told, victory at Armageddon was to cost several billion lives long after the capaign had officially concluded."
DarknessEternal wrote:
Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"
The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.
Then by all accounts, SW should be featured in the next renegade chapter codex.
DarknessEternal wrote:
Phiasco II wrote:
Just a few examples off the top of my head. And before you ask for more citation, I told you I don't have books on me,
Perhaps you should refrain from continuing your argument until you have evidence then.
Your correct, it does feel really good to be able to cite my sources that convince me that SW are nothing but the ignorant pawns Chaos. No better tool could the chaos gods find then the ready and willing SW chapter.
Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?
Nice try.
To the SW they weren't police. They were the representatives of a corrupt group that had supplanted the rightful government quite some time ago sent to provide a justification to kill or worse every man, woman and child on the planet.
Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?
Nice try.
To the SW they weren't police. They were the representatives of a corrupt group that had supplanted the rightful government quite some time ago sent to provide a justification to kill or worse every man, woman and child on the planet.
Ignatius wrote:
Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?
Nice try.
Point of fact, yes you can, as long as your next act is to get on a plane to a non-extradition country with that 7 million before his pals find out. Depending on the state, Canada is nice this time of year, and they won't extradite if you face a possible death penalty. Argentina used to be a nice choice, but these days I'd recommend Venezuela. Brazil is OK, but you have to be married to a Brazilian citizen to dodge extradition there. Though 7m would buy you your pick in the Rio slums.
And, again, deep breath: This WAS NOT THE FIRST TIME THE SW SHOT IT OUT WITH THE ECCLESIARCHY ON FENRIS. THIS WAS NOT AN EVENT THAT TOOK PLACE IN A VACUUM.
IN addition: The Ecclesiarchy does in fact have more than one seat among the High Lords (The Cardinals of the Synod of Terra, as well as the Abbess of the SoB [a position currently Empty] as well as the Ecclesiarch), HOWEVER, point of law, it IS NOT in fact, part of the Adeptus Terra, anymore than the admech is.
FURTHER: Historically, Space Marines HAVE, on occasion, sat as High Lords of Terra, (most notably the Ultramarine's Primarch), and could conceivably serve as Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, with command of overall Imperial space assets in the Segmentum. (as opposed to the Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy, who also sits on the High Lords.) Space Marines have been known to take overall command of fleet actions in Segmentum Solar in the past. (HH, Armageddon)
Ignatius wrote:
Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?
Nice try.
Point of fact, yes you can, as long as your next act is to get on a plane to a non-extradition country with that 7 million before his pals find out. Depending on the state, Canada is nice this time of year, and they won't extradite if you face a possible death penalty. Argentina used to be a nice choice, but these days I'd recommend Venezuela. Brazil is OK, but you have to be married to a Brazilian citizen to dodge extradition there. Though 7m would buy you your pick in the Rio slums.
A well thought out plan, but one that disbars you from being considered a "good guy" IMHO.
Wait... what? This is self defense? If a police officer has a warrant to search my house, but I know he will find the seven million dollars I stole piled high on my bed if he does come in, then I can shoot at him because I know I'm going to be arrested?
Nice try.
To the SW they weren't police. They were the representatives of a corrupt group that had supplanted the rightful government quite some time ago sent to provide a justification to kill or worse every man, woman and child on the planet.
*edit* trimmed the pyramid.
Perfect example of their destructive arrogance.
Yes it is a very good example. I liken it to Americans who voted in a presidential race. But the person they voted for didn't win. They then say, "Well he's not my president!".
Excuse me? Are you a part of the United States? Then he's your president.
Same for the Wolves. Are they a part of the Imperium? Then they must submit to the higher authority. Just because they say they don't have to doesn't mean they actually don't.
Phiasco II wrote:
Lexicanum-
"The Primarch of the Thousand Sons Space Marines, Magnus, had ignored the Emperor's command to not dabble in sorcery. The Space Wolves were then ordered BY THE EMPEROR to bring Magnus before him to answer for this. Russ, however, was convinced by Horus to launch an attack on the Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate."
First, Lexicanum is not a primary source. Like Wikipedia, it is a secondary source.
Second, there's three versions (original, and twice in HH series (and the HH series conflicts with itself)) of this story. In two of them, the Emperor told Russ nothing, only Horus. Horus then tells Russ to kill Magnus.
DarknessEternal wrote:
Phiasco II wrote:GK's- "Good job fighting off the full on demonic incursion guys. Now, as per protocol, lets take care of the Guardsmen that may now be currupted" SW's- "How dare you do the sensible thing and ensure the safety of trillions by killing millions!?! We're gonna smuggle all the guardsmen we can off planet, AND we vow vengeance upon all who were doing the sensible thing!",
You're making that one up. Such a thing never happened.
Try the end of the first battle for Armageddon. C:GKpg 13:
"In the aftermath of battle, the Inquisition began a thorough programme of mindwipe and execution of those imperial Guardsmen and hive defenders who had taken part in the war in order to contain widespread knowledge of both Daemons and of the Grey Knights. However, many thousands of soldiers slipped through the tightening noose. This was perhaps because the scale of cull being attempted on Armageddon far surpassed any that had previously taken place, although matters were further complicated by the fact that Logan Grimnar, who vehemently abhorred such practices, did everything he could to inhibit the Inquisitions agents. Thus was the Inquisition given cause to pay closer attention to the deeds of the Space Wolves in the years that followed.
With their hand thus forced, the Inquisition and the Grey Knights were forced to extend the scope of their containment action, with bloody results for worlds that had never even heard of Armageddon....All told, victory at Armageddon was to cost several billion lives long after the capaign had officially concluded."
Thank you for providing evidence to my point. In none of that was what you said.
DarknessEternal wrote:
Phiasco II wrote:
"Hey Fenris, we're incoming. Just going to check a few things out here. You know, standard stuff." SW's- "@#$% that @#$%!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!"
The Ecclesiarchy were coming to declare the Space Wolves heretics. They stated that specifically.
Then by all accounts, SW should be featured in the next renegade chapter codex.
Perhaps, but it didn't happen the way you described. The Ecclesiarchy came to purge the Wolves, and the Wolves just fired first.
I don't even like Space Wolves, but it's important to get the facts straight and not use hyperbole and internet-hearsay.
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SickSix wrote:I think this string of arguments has settled it for me. SW are heretical renegades that can't be trusted and probably should be wiped out.
No more than most Space Marine chapters. It's a very small percentage of them that would have responded differently in any of those situations.
Space Marines DO NOT LIKE THE IMPERIUM. They just feel duty bound to protect it.
dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families)
So do the Sisters.
So do the Guard at times even.
But Space Wolves themselves have done some questionable things due to their rebellious nature.
dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families)
So do the Sisters.
Haha, no.
The SoB are the "purging" arm of the Ecclesiarchy. No other group in the Imperium, or even in the whole galaxy, has murdered more Imperial citizens.
DarknessEternal wrote:The SoB are the "purging" arm of the Ecclesiarchy. No other group in the Imperium, or even in the whole galaxy, has murdered more Imperial citizens.
Stop making gak up. Lying out of your ass doesn't make for a good argument.
DarknessEternal wrote:The SoB are the "purging" arm of the Ecclesiarchy. No other group in the Imperium, or even in the whole galaxy, has murdered more Imperial citizens.
Stop making gak up. Lying out of your ass doesn't make for a good argument.
Well, I can think of three examples, each lesser than the previous because we're starting big.
First, there was the Reign of Blood, where they killed TRILLIONS of loyal Imperial citizens. Trillions is very large number that nothing can really hope to compete with.
Then there was the Purge of Lastrati, where they tortured and killed 14 billion people for not living up to increasingly insane standards of a "perfect human". These weren't mutants or heretics. It's made clear that this was insane zealotry on the part of the Ecclesiarchy.
And thirdly, there was Cardinal Bucharis' original attack and razing of Fenris, wherein they attempted to torch and enslave the world to provide themselves with more wealth. Note, this was several thousand years before "The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris" in Codex Space Wolves 5th (and you wonder why the Wolves held a grudge?).
Just three examples from Codex Sisters of Battle 2nd.
DarknessEternal wrote:First, there was the Reign of Blood, where they killed TRILLIONS of loyal Imperial citizens. Trillions is very large number that nothing can really hope to compete with.
Did not involve the Daughters of the Emperor nor the Sisters of Battle. The latter did not exist yet; the former merely acted as a bodyguard for Vandire, until they killed him and ended the Reign of Blood-- they stopped the bloodshed.
DarknessEternal wrote:Then there was the Purge of Lastrati
Which was done by the Black Templars, not the Sisters.
DarknessEternal wrote:And thirdly, there was Cardinal Bucharis' original attack and razing of Fenris
Did not involve the Daughters of the Emperor, who were not present during this attack, nor did it involve the Sisters of Battle, who did not exist at the time.
And even if you add all this up, it still pales in comparison to what a SINGLE Inquisitor did to stop the Tyranids.
Melissia wrote:
And even if you add all this up, it still pales in comparison to what a SINGLE Inquisitor did to stop the Tyranids.
But sacrificing entire worlds to almost kinda slow the Tyranids down was so worth it...
The only thing that Kryptman did that "worked" was leading the Tyranids (well, a Hive Fleet splinter thing) into Octarius and into conflict with the Orks.
And the GK/Inquisition have killed so many imperial citizens literally nothing else will compare to that number. That thing with the GK and the killing the people after the first war of Armageddon? That was not the first time that happened, and it certainly won't be the last. Well, until GW bring the Emperor back and he smacks down the High Lords, Ecclesiarchy, and Draigo for being genocidal mooks. Assuming that's where GW wants the plot to go...
About the Space Wolves: They do a lot for the little man, but also a lot to piss off those who have the capacity to kill them, and some of that stuff is not good, no matter which way you look at it.
DarknessEternal wrote:And I thought we were talking about the Ecclesiarchy. SoB exist as their military, they can't be separated.
Condemning Sisters of Battle, who help regulate the Ecclesiarchy, for things which happened BEFORE the Sisters of Battle existed, is either stupidity or trolling.
Ignatius wrote:Yes it is a very good example. I liken it to Americans who voted in a presidential race. But the person they voted for didn't win. They then say, "Well he's not my president!".
Excuse me? Are you a part of the United States? Then he's your president.
Same for the Wolves. Are they a part of the Imperium? Then they must submit to the higher authority. Just because they say they don't have to doesn't mean they actually don't.
The US and IoM have few likenesses. Maybe if politicians assassinated each other during campaigning, state governors refused to pay federal taxes every few years and whole military units went renegade more often.
The Imperium isn't a democracy or a republic, it's more like a slow-moving bureaucratic feudal hell where your connections and power determine what you can do. As long as the wolves fulfill their main oaths of fighting the enemies of the Imperium none of the non-churchly High Lords will lift a finger to support the Ecclesiarchy against them. If you can do something it's your right - unless someone proves you wrong. If higher authority lacks the will or power to get things done then they're to blame, not the guy who does what he wants. Hearing about the Ecclesiarchy running away from Fenris probably was the high point of the day (or year?) for many a High Lord. Next time the Navy might send crappier ships even if the church asks for better ones.
From reading "Prospero Burns" (and, to an extent, A Thousand Sons) the in 30k the Space Wolves are:
a) Extremely savage barbarians, due to their upbringing on a deathworld which is subject to constant conflict for scarce resources.
b) This leads to a highly independant mindset where it's you and yours against absolutely everything else.
c) Assume that you can do anything that you need to unless you are specifically told not to. And the onus is on you to find out what you're allowed to do, not wait for orders (As the old Wolf priest , a terran, says the Fenrisian logic gets into you like a hook)
d) Vastly more intelligent than they appear.
e) Much more controlled than they appear. If they were just berserkers they'd be easy. As the wolf lord says, "It takes a lot of self control to be this dangerous.
f) Deliberately hide (d) and (e) from the rest of the Imperium. Why? Because you never know who you're going to have to kill. See (b)
g) Regard themselves as the executioners of the Emperor, willing to do what everyone else would find horrifying.
Because of this, they scare hell out of everyone else. As one imperial officer puts it, they either prove that the Emperor isn't infallible, or that he's planned ahead and designed them for fighting something so terrible that it doesn't bear contemplating.
By 40k, we're pretty well aquinted with the assorted horrifying things that the Wolves are designed to fight, so it looks like Big E was spot on there, though probably didn't envision himself being nailed to a chair in the process.
In the optimistic times of 30k, the Space Wolve are quite rightly seen as a thing of horror. Ten thousand years later, the whole of the rest of the Imperium has become so bad that they seem like fluffy bunnies. The Wolves haven't changed.
I wonder if this is due to their ban on written records? Everything the Imperium has ever written down seems to have been, without exception, lost or imperfectly copied.
The Wolves, with an oral history tradition backed up by a couple of guys in the fridge who were actually there during the Heresy, seem to have stayed more true to their original purpose, i.e. not only fighting the external enemies of the Imperium, but fighting against what they see as failures within the Imperium itself. They're missing someone they actually respect to give them these orders though, which makes them act like loose cannons.
First, there was the Reign of Blood, where they killed TRILLIONS of loyal Imperial citizens. Trillions is very large number that nothing can really hope to compete with.
.
Indeed. Trillions is a fairly large number. 10^12 for short-scale countries (UK & US) and even 10^18 on long-scale. Given that the galaxy only has about 200-400 billion stars, or 200-400 x 10^9 on short-scale, multiples of a trillion (10^12 on short-scale) would still leave thousands of humans for each and every single star in the milky way, whether with planets or not, not to mention inhabitable planets. If the Reign of Blood would kill one thousand imperial citizens every single second, it would still take almost 32 years to get to even only 1 Trillion. Several Trillion (assuming single digits) would thus be over a century of "thousand-citizens-every-single-second-killing".
Wolf/Armegeddon related spoilers from the forthcoming " Emperor's Gift" book
Spoiler:
Logan Grimnar rails against the sterilization and enslavement.execution of Armageddon's people for gaining knowledge of Angron and Chaos.
It escalates into a (brief) war known by the Grey Knights as "The Months of Shame". Grimnar evacuates most of the Imperial Guardsmen who fought on Armageddon to prevent them from being executed for seeing Chaos and the Grey Knights. The Inquisition hunts many down, burning the ships and any planets or installations that even heard about them or identified them passing through their system, it continued with many worlds destroyed but the Wolves defending many more, using their ships as shields yet never opening fire on the Inquisition forces.
It, obviously, is not a victory in the conventional sense for the Space Wolves but.... Thankfully it's sorted out afore the Imperium goes into full on civil war once again.
First, there was the Reign of Blood, where they killed TRILLIONS of loyal Imperial citizens. Trillions is very large number that nothing can really hope to compete with.
.
Indeed. Trillions is a fairly large number. 10^12 for short-scale countries (UK & US) and even 10^18 on long-scale. Given that the galaxy only has about 200-400 billion stars, or 200-400 x 10^9 on short-scale, multiples of a trillion (10^12 on short-scale) would still leave thousands of humans for each and every single star in the milky way, whether with planets or not, not to mention inhabitable planets. If the Reign of Blood would kill one thousand imperial citizens every single second, it would still take almost 32 years to get to even only 1 Trillion. Several Trillion (assuming single digits) would thus be over a century of "thousand-citizens-every-single-second-killing".
In short, highly unlikely.
You're underestimating the scale of 40k.
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Melissia wrote:Condemning Sisters of Battle, who help regulate the Ecclesiarchy,
They do no such thing. They blindly enforce the dogma of the Ecclesiarchy as its most ridiculous fanatics.
DarknessEternal wrote:
And thirdly, there was Cardinal Bucharis' original attack and razing of Fenris, wherein they attempted to torch and enslave the world to provide themselves with more wealth. Note, this was several thousand years before "The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris" in Codex Space Wolves 5th (and you wonder why the Wolves held a grudge?).
So DE mentions it and THEN people acknowledge that there's some back-story behind the SW/Ecclesiarchy relationship? Three other people drag this out and it's ignored in the ranting about them shooting down a single ship.
reds8n wrote:Wolf/Armegeddon related spoilers from the forthcoming " Emperor's Gift" book
Spoiler:
Logan Grimnar rails against the sterilization and enslavement.execution of Armageddon's people for gaining knowledge of Angron and Chaos.
It escalates into a (brief) war known by the Grey Knights as "The Months of Shame". Grimnar evacuates most of the Imperial Guardsmen who fought on Armageddon to prevent them from being executed for seeing Chaos and the Grey Knights. The Inquisition hunts many down, burning the ships and any planets or installations that even heard about them or identified them passing through their system, it continued with many worlds destroyed but the Wolves defending many more, using their ships as shields yet never opening fire on the Inquisition forces.
It, obviously, is not a victory in the conventional sense for the Space Wolves but.... Thankfully it's sorted out afore the Imperium goes into full on civil war once again.
When the Ecclesarchy came to Fenris it wasn't a 'routine inspection' by the police and the Space Wolves knew it.
After Armageddon the Wolves considered the forces of the Imperium to murderous and duplicitous fiends who would kill their allies by the millions just to protect their secrets.
Secrets that the Space Wolves knew and had almost come to blows with the agents of the Imperium at the end of Armageddon.
When the Space Wolves saw the Ecclesarchy in their system they didn't see a rightful authority. They saw a someone who would kill them and everyone else on their planet in an effort to keep their secrets hidden.
So tell me, if someone living under a corrupt regieme saw a secret police car pull up and knew that those secret police were going to kill them, their family and probably most of their neighbors. Would taking up arms to protect yourself, your family and your neighbors be a good or evil act?
Jefffar wrote:
So tell me, if someone living under a corrupt regieme saw a secret police car pull up and knew that those secret police were going to kill them, their family and probably most of their neighbors. Would taking up arms to protect yourself, your family and your neighbors be a good or evil act?
*waives hand* I know the answer, I know the answer!
Lure the Secret Police into chasing the 'rabbit' down a narrow hallway, and when he passes you, gun them down with the HMG, strip their bodies, call your buddies in the resistance to get the car and the secret police stiffs stuff, and then ditch the bodies in a lime pit while the resistance guys take the car to a chop shop and divvy up the weapons after.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Having been a Marine, I think we're a little less hairy and a lot more disciplined, lol.
Probably drink the same amount.
I dunno about that, I've seen some, who were no credit to the uniform, who were both less disciplined AND hairier. Though their intense drunkenness probably contributed to the former and the ensuing barfight by pointing out the latter.
Haha. Everybody's got their 10%.
For the Space Marines, it's the Minotaurs, Black Templars and Space Wolves.
Jefffar wrote:
When the Space Wolves saw the Ecclesarchy in their system they didn't see a rightful authority. They saw a someone who would kill them and everyone else on their planet in an effort to keep their secrets hidden.
And more to the point, they saw someone who had raped and plundered Fenris before.
reds8n wrote:Wolf/Armegeddon related spoilers from the forthcoming " Emperor's Gift" book
Spoiler:
Logan Grimnar rails against the sterilization and enslavement.execution of Armageddon's people for gaining knowledge of Angron and Chaos.
It escalates into a (brief) war known by the Grey Knights as "The Months of Shame". Grimnar evacuates most of the Imperial Guardsmen who fought on Armageddon to prevent them from being executed for seeing Chaos and the Grey Knights. The Inquisition hunts many down, burning the ships and any planets or installations that even heard about them or identified them passing through their system, it continued with many worlds destroyed but the Wolves defending many more, using their ships as shields yet never opening fire on the Inquisition forces.
It, obviously, is not a victory in the conventional sense for the Space Wolves but.... Thankfully it's sorted out afore the Imperium goes into full on civil war once again.
Sounds like sw fanboy wish listing to me.
I am not sure, it actualy sounds like something the Spacewolves would do. They are shortsightened and headstrong, never realizing that allowing people to escape from Armageddon made it necessary to increase the scope of the following purge nor are they realizing that there is no sacrifice to great to contain the taint of chaos if the Imperium wishes to remain stable.
You think marines are humane then? Perhaps you should read a few articles written by these humane marines and see for yourself if they consider themselves humane.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
For the Space Marines, it's the Minotaurs, Black Templars and Space Wolves.
You left out Dark Angels and the Ultramarines. Let's not forget those heretics and how they break from the Codex Astartes by possessing lance weapons and mounting them on their starships (forbidden to Space Marines under the Codex).
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Reality-Torrent wrote:You think marines are humane then? Perhaps you should read a few articles written by these humane marines and see for yourself if they consider themselves humane.
Be sure to compare their actions to other Imperial organization's approved practices. After all, cutting the heads off infants and sewing them into their (still living) mother's breasts as a means of execution is among the Inquisition's ideas of punishment for certain lesser offenses. We're not even getting into the Ecclesiarchy, IN lists strangulation, beating the subject to death, flogging, and the ever popular tossing out the airlock as approved methods. IG is usually too busy shooting or dying themselves to really get into the spirit of things...
Further, the fact that they're able to question their own actions, as opposed to everyone else, who apparently don't, might also suggest that they're more humane than, say, the Sisters of Battle...
DarknessEternal wrote:
And more to the point, they saw someone who had raped and plundered Fenris before.
By that logic, Black Legion are likely the good guys of 40K. They've been attacked before, and if pre-emptive surprise strikes deduct no points, they're getting close to shining knights in white armour. As do all others I guess.
The US and IoM have few likenesses. Maybe if politicians assassinated each other during campaigning, state governors refused to pay federal taxes every few years and whole military units went renegade more often.
The Imperium isn't a democracy or a republic, it's more like a slow-moving bureaucratic feudal hell where your connections and power determine what you can do.
That actually sounds a lot like the US. But this is not a discussion of real world politics.
I can't believe this discussion continues. I think everyone should remember that, THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS. Part of the reason 40k has been so successful is that you can choose any faction and try to rationalise that they are the "good guys". As has been said; it's all about perspective.
dreadfury101 wrote:Ive been reading up on the fluff of space wolves and it seems to me that they are the only "good guys" in the whole universe. they have a code, They stand up for the weak, they call the imperium on its BS ( see defying orders to save lives and families) They spit in the face of the imperium when it is necessary and they dont take no s%$# from anyone. When you compare the fluff of Space puppies to say the GK or the grind house guard it seems that SW are the only ones who still have.... the word i want to use is "humanity"..... maybe im off the mark but they remind me a lot of US marines (i grew up around those guys they all seem very space wolfy).
an internet cookie for your thoughts?
Salamanders do the same thing.
Tau are actually more sympathetic to civvies than SW, or anyone really. Their priority when they are invaded is to evacuate ALL civilians.
Ultrasmurfs are awful, but not evil.
In fact, most loyalist SM aren't really "evil", even certain CSM aren't (see: Night Lords)
Eldar aren't evil at all.
Certain things like DE, orks and nids aren't really evil, battling only for survival.
Chaos is evil.
The guard (in execution of their task, not in their purpose) is somewhat evil.
The inquisition CAN be evil, but is more of a "sacrifice the few, save the many" kinda thing.
Kavish wrote:
I can't believe this discussion continues. I think everyone should remember that, THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS.
And by The Emperor, if there are Good Guys, they're going to be retconned into jerkasses next release, in their new codex, written by CS Goto and Matt Ward!
BaronIveagh wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reality-Torrent wrote:You think marines are humane then? Perhaps you should read a few articles written by these humane marines and see for yourself if they consider themselves humane.
Be sure to compare their actions to other Imperial organization's approved practices. After all, cutting the heads off infants and sewing them into their (still living) mother's breasts as a means of execution is among the Inquisition's ideas of punishment for certain lesser offenses. We're not even getting into the Ecclesiarchy, IN lists strangulation, beating the subject to death, flogging, and the ever popular tossing out the airlock as approved methods. IG is usually too busy shooting or dying themselves to really get into the spirit of things...
Further, the fact that they're able to question their own actions, as opposed to everyone else, who apparently don't, might also suggest that they're more humane than, say, the Sisters of Battle...
You missed my point though. The author claimed that the Space Wolfs should be compared to the US marines. Which is imo pretty far of the mark. Seeing it's even pretty clear the share a different heritage similarity to the "vikings" even though that's also a pretty poor boast.
Reality-Torrent wrote:
You missed my point though. The author claimed that the Space Wolfs should be compared to the US marines. Which is imo pretty far of the mark. Seeing it's even pretty clear the share a different heritage similarity to the "vikings" even though that's also a pretty poor boast.
Well...
No, not the SW in particular, but SM in general I can see his point.
Mind you, of course, you have to understand that I do, in fact, think of the US military and police in general as slightly lower on the sliding sale of righteousness than, say, mercs. After all, I've never had a merc beat and kill women and children or torture prisoners and spout 'I was just following orders...' ('I want more money' or 'I felt like it'. most certainly, but never that it was alright because someone with more bars told them to.)
But this takes us down an intensely political discussion.
Indeed it is a difficult topic to discuss. War is a cruel thing, it's horrible and it's very nature is as opposite to what we would declare human as possible can. Don't mistake me for a pacifist, I am not though I hold no illusions that it's a pretty matter. Looking at the history of our species it is quite clear that war is an unavoidable part of what we do, even an necessary part perhaps. Though to claim the warriors of mankind to be "good", "kind", "humane" (based on the common ideal of our society and the norms therein) is madness. War is violence and horror and can never be anything else. To think differently is naive.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
Salamanders do the same thing.
Tau are actually more sympathetic to civvies than SW, or anyone really. Their priority when they are invaded is to evacuate ALL civilians.
Ultrasmurfs are awful, but not evil.
In fact, most loyalist SM aren't really "evil", even certain CSM aren't (see: Night Lords)
Eldar aren't evil at all.
Certain things like DE, orks and nids aren't really evil, battling only for survival.
Chaos is evil.
The guard (in execution of their task, not in their purpose) is somewhat evil.
The inquisition CAN be evil, but is more of a "sacrifice the few, save the many" kinda thing.
Night Lords not evil? Have you read the part where they described what used to be their fortress? Living people nailed to the walls and intubed so they would not die. Their walls were made of living people. With servitors tasked to keep the walls "alive". That's pretty far out.
Eldars have butchered women and children before with barely a blink. Eldar might not be "evil" in the traditional sense of the word but they are not above killing civilians.
Erik_Morkai wrote:
Eldars have butchered women and children before with barely a blink. Eldar might not be "evil" in the traditional sense of the word but they are not above killing civilians.
Eldar are too factionally diverse to lump them together like that.
'Let me give you some advice, Captain,' he said, 'It may help you to make sense of the world. I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'
Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!
So we have Dark Eldar, who look down on you as a debased and primitive species, and think you are only useful as slaves and raw materials.
Then we have the Exodite Eldar, who look down on you as a debased and primitive species (yes, even compared to them), and exterminate all humans as invaders and violators of their hippy drum circles.
Finally, we have the Craftworld Eldar, who look down on you as a debased and primitive species, and frequently orchestrate events that can result in billions of dead humans if that's what it takes to preserve a few Eldar lives (redirecting Waaghs or Tyranid fleets, et al). At best, they wish you would just stay out of their way and left them alone. At worst, they are like the Archon in charge of the Cabal, who would love to see humanity extinct. Harlequins probably don't view the humans too kindly, either, seeing as humans are the main font from which the Chaos Gods draw their power.
Eldar are dicks. All Xenos are debased scum and should be exterminated. That's the only thing the loyalist and Chaos Astartes can agree on.
Sturmtruppen wrote:'Let me give you some advice, Captain,' he said, 'It may help you to make sense of the world. I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'
Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!
SickSix wrote:I have yet to see Salamander's portrayed in a negative light. They are truly the 'Good Guys' of 40k.
Tau 'appear' to be good but there is definitely some indications that they may not be quite so under the surface. (mind control and all that mess)
The mind control thing is in-universe imperial speculation. They misjudge the tau psychology so thoroughly, and i t is so alien to them, that they cannot see such devotion existing species wide without help. Well guess what: pheromones do not cover every inch of all tau space, and would in fact only work within a couple metres.
And with sallies, they seem to have the best intentions, but still don't bother saving aspirants who fail, simply letting them die, which is bad.
Sturmtruppen wrote:'Let me give you some advice, Captain,' he said, 'It may help you to make sense of the world. I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'
Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!
Eh, that's too cynical for even me. I've met decent people. And occasionally done bad things to bad men so that those decent people can go to sleep at night and not have to worry about if they're going to be beaten, raped, murdered, and their home burned. (Sadly, the first mental image I get as I write this was of New York state troopers dragging a pregnant native woman from her home and beating her with night sticks for no other reason than she was native. And the man they shot six times in the back [ironically, a Marine on leave visiting his family, IIRC]).
Americans like to pose and posture like they're the good guys, but when you get down to it, there's a reason they refuse to recognize the international war crimes tribunal. I know I, personally, would like to see Medina and Calley stretch hemp, myself, and the closest I've been to Vietnam was Thailand.
The Space wolves are the Emps loyal dogs, and they are great at that role, when the emp sent the space wolves to arrest Magnus, they instead decided to kill him, they have their uses but are unsubtle, their a lot like Legate Lianis from Fallout, good for a tough battle, but you wouldn't want them in any position of responsibility. It shows you that the emp didn't even think about making Russ Warmaster. Good warrior, maybe even a decent general, but nothing like Horus.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:The Space wolves are the Emps loyal dogs, and they are great at that role, when the emp sent the space wolves to arrest Magnus, they instead decided to kill him, they have their uses but are unsubtle, their a lot like Legate Lianis from Fallout, good for a tough battle, but you wouldn't want them in any position of responsibility. It shows you that the emp didn't even think about making Russ Warmaster. Good warrior, maybe even a decent general, but nothing like Horus.
Decided nothing, they were ordered to invade by Horus.
Horus duped Russ into doing what was in Russ's nature, to attack and ask questions first. I'm not saying Russ was a bad Legion cammander, i'm saying he was a blunt instrument who was not the equal of Primarchs like Horus who were more statesman then warrior.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:Horus duped Russ into doing what was in Russ's nature, to attack and ask questions first. I'm not saying Russ was a bad Legion cammander, i'm saying he was a blunt instrument who was not the equal of Primarchs like Horus who were more statesman then warrior.
Hardly duped. He gave him a straightforward order. Any primarch would have obeyed horus.
The blood angels are good guys in 40k, but their successor chapter the Lamenters are some of the most human of all the space marines which makes them good guys. But I agree with previous posts the ultramarines are probably some of the best.
Sturmtruppen wrote:'Let me give you some advice, Captain,' he said, 'It may help you to make sense of the world. I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.'
Terry Pratchett's Guards! Guards!
ZSO SAHALL wrote:The Space wolves are the Emps loyal dogs, and they are great at that role, when the emp sent the space wolves to arrest Magnus, they instead decided to kill him, they have their uses but are unsubtle, their a lot like Legate Lianis from Fallout, good for a tough battle, but you wouldn't want them in any position of responsibility. It shows you that the emp didn't even think about making Russ Warmaster. Good warrior, maybe even a decent general, but nothing like Horus.
Decided nothing, they were ordered to invade by Horus.
You are wrong. Russ was not ordered. It clearly states that Horus told Russ of the evil deeds Magnus was guilty of, Russ a man of unstable nature decided that he rather kill Magnus then capture him. Ofc this is what Horus wanted, so he manipulated Russ. Though he did not order him. Point made.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:The Space wolves are the Emps loyal dogs, and they are great at that role, when the emp sent the space wolves to arrest Magnus, they instead decided to kill him, they have their uses but are unsubtle, their a lot like Legate Lianis from Fallout, good for a tough battle, but you wouldn't want them in any position of responsibility. It shows you that the emp didn't even think about making Russ Warmaster. Good warrior, maybe even a decent general, but nothing like Horus.
Decided nothing, they were ordered to invade by Horus.
You are wrong. Russ was not ordered. It clearly states that Horus told Russ of the evil deeds Magnus was guilty of, Russ a man of unstable nature decided that he rather kill Magnus then capture him. Ofc this is what Horus wanted, so he manipulated Russ. Though he did not order him. Point made up.
Fixed.
Kasper Ansbach Hawser caused the attack. Leman Russ asked Magnus to evacuate civilians and surrender peacefully, but the skjald Kasper failed to deliver this message, leading Leman Russ to believe it had been ignored, and attacking Prospero.
Of course he failed to deliver it. He had nothing to do with Magnus. At all. The whole "OMG THE EVUL SORCERERS R SPYIN' ON US!" panic the Wolves were in was a figment of their imagination.
Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.
Talk about off-topic...
The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.
The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.
I disagree. It might just be my hate for the Tau, but I think that the Tau are truly no better than the IoM really, they just hide it under all that GM, Greater Good and Communist crap. I would have said good guys would be your average Eldar Civillian on a very minor Craftworld.
Omegus wrote:Of course he failed to deliver it. He had nothing to do with Magnus. At all. The whole "OMG THE EVUL SORCERERS R SPYIN' ON US!" panic the Wolves were in was a figment of their imagination.
In fairness, considering the weird espionage and politicking between the legions it's not a hard assumption to make that the spy they discovered in their midst was sent by their rivals...
Very few suspected Horus of anything, that's probably why the whole Heresy was so devastating...
Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.
Talk about off-topic...
The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.
The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.
I disagree. It might just be my hate for the Tau, but I think that the Tau are truly no better than the IoM really, they just hide it under all that GM, Greater Good and Communist crap. I would have said good guys would be your average Eldar Civillian on a very minor Craftworld.
Not quite. The Tau Empire is expansionist but not genocidial. It also manages to provide adequate living conditions to it's population. Hiding stuff under "communist crap" is impossible because the idiotic notion
that the Tau Empire is communist has been disproven countless times before. For Warhammer 40k they are perhaps the only larger faction which might be, under certain conditions, called good guys.
Everywhere else the Tau would be the evil empire that has to be stoped by a plucky young hero and his loyal companions.
Jefffar wrote:The Tau are good . . . or at least they think they are.
Talk about off-topic...
The guy asked about Good factions in the universe.
The Tau are one of the few who come close to that.
I disagree. It might just be my hate for the Tau, but I think that the Tau are truly no better than the IoM really, they just hide it under all that GM, Greater Good and Communist crap. I would have said good guys would be your average Eldar Civillian on a very minor Craftworld.
You mean Eldar, those aliens who slaughter entire star clusters to save individuals?
IoM is laughably evil. In fact, they are quite possibly the most evil faction in the whole setting.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
You mean Eldar, those aliens who slaughter entire star clusters to save individuals?
IoM is laughably evil. In fact, they are quite possibly the most evil faction in the whole setting.
But of course if the Humans slaughter aliens for no good reason it's fine cuz their humans, IMHO eldars are the best ones in WH40k (not much of a praise), of course I'm in no way biased.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
You mean Eldar, those aliens who slaughter entire star clusters to save individuals?
IoM is laughably evil. In fact, they are quite possibly the most evil faction in the whole setting.
But of course if the Humans slaughter aliens for no good reason it's fine cuz their humans, IMHO eldars are the best ones in WH40k (not much of a praise), of course I'm in no way biased.
Humans are evil too.
Shade of Grey.
IMHO the Hierarchy of good-evil is:
Tau
Eldar
Space Marines
Renegade Space Marines
Imperium of Man
Dark Eldar
Chaos
Chaos Space Marine
Inquisition
You may notice certain factions, like orks and Tyranids are not on it. That is because they are animals, and animals are neither good nor evil.
How are the Inquisition more evil than Dark Eldar, Chaos and CSM?
If anything the Inquisition are the shade of grey...
They choose the lesser of two evils.
purplefood wrote:How are the Inquisition more evil than Dark Eldar, Chaos and CSM?
If anything the Inquisition are the shade of grey...
They choose the lesser of two evils.
IMO at least the other ones know fully what they are doing, the Inquisition seems to have forgetter the purpose of what they do and has done worse things than what they are supposed to prevent.
purplefood wrote:How are the Inquisition more evil than Dark Eldar, Chaos and CSM?
If anything the Inquisition are the shade of grey...
They choose the lesser of two evils.
IMO at least the other ones know fully what they are doing, the Inquisition seems to have forgetter the purpose of what they do and has done worse things than what they are supposed to prevent.
I'm not gonna say the Inquisition hasn't done some bad things but overall they have helped greatly to prevent the fall of the IoM...
purplefood wrote:How are the Inquisition more evil than Dark Eldar, Chaos and CSM?
If anything the Inquisition are the shade of grey...
They choose the lesser of two evils.
They still choose to kill entire worlds of humans for bs reasons.
Choosing the lesser of two evils still makes you evil. No man left behind.
Dark Eldar do what they do because it is what they are forced to do by Slaanesh to keep their souls from eternal torment. And because it is what they, as a species, are naturally inclined to do.
Chaos, likewise, is elemental. The Blood God NEEDS blood. Slaanesh sees nothing wrong with eternal torture, it is simply not how her mind works, assigning human morality to non humans doesn't work so well.
The chaos space marines were lied to, plain and simple.
purplefood wrote:How are the Inquisition more evil than Dark Eldar, Chaos and CSM?
If anything the Inquisition are the shade of grey...
They choose the lesser of two evils.
They still choose to kill entire worlds of humans for bs reasons.
Choosing the lesser of two evils still makes you evil. No man left behind.
Dark Eldar do what they do because it is what they are forced to do by Slaanesh to keep their souls from eternal torment. And because it is what they, as a species, are naturally inclined to do.
Chaos, likewise, is elemental. The Blood God NEEDS blood. Slaanesh sees nothing wrong with eternal torture, it is simply not how her mind works, assigning human morality to non humans doesn't work so well.
The chaos space marines were lied to, plain and simple.
The CSM still do what they do...
Dark Eldar don't have to enjoy it so damn much.
The Chaos Gods do everything they do for power or entertainment.
The Inquisition does bad things for good reasons. Would you rather a single person die than a million?
I'm not saying the Inquisition aren't entirely good but they are sure as hell not as bad as DE, and Chaos and they sure as hell aren't worse...
purplefood wrote:How are the Inquisition more evil than Dark Eldar, Chaos and CSM?
If anything the Inquisition are the shade of grey...
They choose the lesser of two evils.
They still choose to kill entire worlds of humans for bs reasons.
Choosing the lesser of two evils still makes you evil. No man left behind.
Dark Eldar do what they do because it is what they are forced to do by Slaanesh to keep their souls from eternal torment. And because it is what they, as a species, are naturally inclined to do.
Chaos, likewise, is elemental. The Blood God NEEDS blood. Slaanesh sees nothing wrong with eternal torture, it is simply not how her mind works, assigning human morality to non humans doesn't work so well.
The chaos space marines were lied to, plain and simple.
The CSM still do what they do...
Dark Eldar don't have to enjoy it so damn much.
The Chaos Gods do everything they do for power or entertainment.
The Inquisition does bad things for good reasons. Would you rather a single person die than a million?
I'm not saying the Inquisition aren't entirely good but they are sure as hell not as bad as DE, and Chaos and they sure as hell aren't worse...
Protecting the human race means killing billions on a whim? Okay, THAT sounds logical. Why don't I protect my house by setting it on fire?
The CSM still believe the lie.
Enjoying it is what keeps the DE from having their souls eaten.
They kill for power and entertainment? Humans kill for meat and oil. Same difference. Power and attention is what feeds the gods.
On a whim? Where has that ever happened? It's not like they just up and say 'I don't like the way that planet is shaped' Exterminatus is the last resort, we hear about it so much because it's very dramatic...
purplefood wrote:
The Chaos Gods do everything they do for power or entertainment.
I think I have to disagree here, the Chaos Gods were created by the emotions of the sentinent races and they are the products of the emotions that appear in the warp that are turned to the extreme in the warp, so the warp beings can't be composed of good emotions, so they can not act differently, they are simply made to act that way.
purplefood wrote:
The Chaos Gods do everything they do for power or entertainment.
I think I have to disagree here, the Chaos Gods were created by the emotions of the sentinent races and they are the products of the emotions that appear in the warp that are turned to the extreme in the warp, so the warp beings can't be composed of good emotions, so they can not act differently, they are simply made to act that way.
They are sentient beings formed of emotions though.
They can do whatever they like within their power.
purplefood wrote:On a whim?
Where has that ever happened?
It's not like they just up and say 'I don't like the way that planet is shaped'
Exterminatus is the last resort, we hear about it so much because it's very dramatic...
Savage Scars.
Read it.
The inquisitor exterminatus'd a tau planet that had no tau on it, and only had SM and IG, who had just purged it.
purplefood wrote:
The Chaos Gods do everything they do for power or entertainment.
I think I have to disagree here, the Chaos Gods were created by the emotions of the sentinent races and they are the products of the emotions that appear in the warp that are turned to the extreme in the warp, so the warp beings can't be composed of good emotions, so they can not act differently, they are simply made to act that way.
They are sentient beings formed of emotions though.
They can do whatever they like within their power.
They are sentiment beings formed from extreme emotions which is all they know and I would argue that to them what they do is perfectly normal and acceptable because it's the only thing they do.
jgehunter wrote:IMO at least the other ones know fully what they are doing, the Inquisition seems to have forgetter the purpose of what they do and has done worse things than what they are supposed to prevent.
That's a misconception brought on by really horrible black library writers. In truth, one could even offer the Inquisition as the true good guys; after all, they struggle their entire lives with an impossibly heavy burden upon their souls and minds, knowing that the weight of untold trillions of souls is on their shoulder. If they are not ruthless, if they do not do their very best, put forth every last effort to stave off the encroachment of the threats from within, without, and beyond, millions, if not billions of souls will perish or worse, be tainted by chaos or the xeno. But if they do their jobs right, and they try their damndest to do just this, those masses get a chance, however small, of living in contentedness or even happiness, ignorant of the mind-shattering threats facing their minds, bodies, and souls every day.
It is because of the Inquisition's eternal struggles against the soul-shattering enemies of Humankind that the average person has a chance of being able to live a happy life in 40k. They don't always succeed, of course, and sometimes they make decisions which do less than help, but by the Emperor they certainly are putting everything on the line for the sake of their duties. Even their own souls.
You can choose to interpret the Inquisition as always evil, but it isn't necessarily the right interpretation, and it certainly isn't the only one.
jgehunter wrote:IMO at least the other ones know fully what they are doing, the Inquisition seems to have forgetter the purpose of what they do and has done worse things than what they are supposed to prevent.
That's a misconception brought on by really horrible black library writers. In truth, one could even offer the Inquisition as the true good guys; after all, they struggle their entire lives with an impossibly heavy burden upon their souls and minds, knowing that the weight of untold trillions of souls is on their shoulder. If they are not ruthless, if they do not do their very best, put forth every last effort to stave off the encroachment of the threats from within, without, and beyond, millions, if not billions of souls will perish or worse, be tainted by chaos or the xeno. But if they do their jobs right, and they try their damndest to do just this, those masses get a chance, however small, of living in contentedness or even happiness, ignorant of the mind-shattering threats facing their minds, bodies, and souls every day.
It is because of the Inquisition's eternal struggles against the soul-shattering enemies of Humankind that the average person has a chance of being able to live a happy life in 40k. They don't always succeed, of course, and sometimes they make decisions which do less than help, but by the Emperor they certainly are putting everything on the line for the sake of their duties. Even their own souls.
You can choose to interpret the Inquisition as always evil, but it isn't necessarily the right interpretation, and it certainly isn't the only one.
All you have said Is acceptable I guess, but the part I colored, apparently if they kill aliens to save their own race they aren't good, like what Eldars do.
Night Lords are the only humanist of warhammer, not the tau, and not the space wolves jingeling bones and wholing at the moon and thinking that their librarians get their power from spirits and not the warp. But the Wolves are good doggies of the Emporer, except when they bite strangers or crap inside.
Death comes in degrees in the 40k universe. One could easily say that the standard SM Chapter, or better yet, the Inquisition, are complete fanatics by real life standards, but when you think of what the Imperium would be without them (I.E. Overrun by Chaos, eaten by Tyranids, or slaughtered by Orks) the occasional Exterminatus is an easy price to pay.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:Night Lords are the only humanist of warhammer, not the tau, and not the space wolves jingeling bones and wholing at the moon and thinking that their librarians get their power from spirits and not the warp. But the Wolves are good doggies of the Emporer, except when they bite strangers or crap inside.
Not sure if serious or just trolling...
I will assume that you are serious so:
Night Lords? Are you sure you are not confusing them with another chapter say Salamanders? Ultramarines? Any other chapter at all?
The Night Lords are the guys that have symbols of "fear" adorned on their armor. Skulls, lightning, look like bats. They are the guys that slaughtered their Home Planet ,(like other Chaos Legions i.e. Iron Warriors) they specialize in psychological warfare. So they perform war atrocities for breakfast.
Anyway on topic now:
So the Eldar are considered evil from the human point of view. I could not agree more. But are they considered evil from the Eldar point of view? I think not. Every action is justified from the race/person doing it.
i.e. I can steal an apple. This is perceived as wrong by the society, the law and the shopkeeper. But if my brother is dying of hunger and I give him the apple, does he consider me as an evil-doer? (I know this a really simplified example but i think you guyz and gals get what I mean ) Good and Evil, Right and Wrong,Yin and Yang, Black and White. These are all perspectives of actions from different observers. As such it is relative.
Can we ask which race is the most humanitarian? Well obviously those are the humans (as mentioned from the above posters, Eldar do not care, DE do not care, Orks do not care, Nids nomnom, Chaos do not care, CSM still dont care, Tau care if they can get them in their empire otherwise not really). Which chapter? Which organization?
ZSO SAHALL wrote:Night Lords are the only humanist of warhammer, not the tau, and not the space wolves jingeling bones and wholing at the moon and thinking that their librarians get their power from spirits and not the warp. But the Wolves are good doggies of the Emporer, except when they bite strangers or crap inside.
Night Lords are NOT humanitarians. They slaughter innumerable humans and leave the rest living in terror. That is no life at all. Respect, honour and honesty should be your reasons for obeying the law, not fear.
Omegus wrote:Humanitarians and humanists are two different things. I can see Night Lords being labeled humanist.
I brought up humanitarian because I assumed the poster had confused the two, with humanism being an irrelevant point and humanitarianism being exactly and entirely pertinent.
They slaughter innumerable humans and leave the rest living in terror.
That is standard procedure in 40k, the Night Haunter though was known for one quality that the other Primarchs lacked, justice, while some Primarchs may have valued beauty, art, strength, faith, or human welfare none of them really cared about what is just, and wanting order and prosperity is different than wanting justice.
depends on whos account you believe, my opinion mainly comes from Zso Sahaals account which characterises him as a just man who was forced into the role of a tame monster by a father who thought nothing of using his son.
Considering that he was prepped to be the Night Haunter's heir, it hardly seems likely that he wouldn't have honored him as a hero even if it meant embellishing the truth.
Considering that he was prepped to be the Night Haunter's heir, it hardly seems likely that he wouldn't have honored him as a hero even if it meant embellishing the truth.
You could say that about the Emporer or any of the Primarchsm, its Curzes willingness to stand trial trial and eventually allow himself to be assasinated that makes me see him as giving an honest account.
The way Kurze is presented in the Night Lords books, he was bipolar in the extreme, waxing poetic about justice and rtribution one moment, and ripping the heads off his servants in the next. In Savage Weapons, he's portrayed asdownright deranged.
He didn't turn into a monster for the Emperor, he was a monster shaped by his environment. What he foresaw was that the Emperor would use his talents until they became a political liability, and then Kurze and his Legion would be sanctioned and discarded. That's why he was so tortured/bitter.
The way Kurze is presented in the Night Lords books, he was bipolar in the extreme, waxing poetic about justice and rtribution one moment, and ripping the heads off his servants in the next. In Savage Weapons, he's portrayed asdownright deranged.
The boweden books paint a fine picture of present day Night Lords, but Lord of the Night paints the best picture of Horus Heresy Night Lords. He certainly became deranged, his behavior at the end of his life shows this.
He assimilated knowledge almost greedily, and became considered a fair and temperate ruler, until word of some injustice reached his ears. He would then hunt the guilty through the streets, wearing them down and then killing and mutilating them. The unpredictable pattern of benevolent wisdom and hideous vengeance ushered in a new level of efficiency and honesty. Other cities around the planet followed suit, in an attempt to keep the Night Haunter from their doors.
The Night Haunter always had two sides about him, those two sides made him a good ruler, but the Emporer gave one side victory over the other, and pushed his monstrous tendencies to the surface.
The reason he allowed himself to killed is obvious, he was both rejecting his role as monster and atoning for his sins. His death shows much similarity to the Legion punishment of condemnation, Curze spent the remainder of his life leading his Legion so they would survive the long war before offering his throat as penance for his sins against humanity.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:
The reason he allowed himself to killed is obvious, he was both rejecting his role as monster and atoning for his sins. His death shows much similarity to the Legion punishment of condemnation, Curze spent the remainder of his life leading his Legion so they would survive the long war before offering his throat as penance for his sins against humanity.
No. The reason he allowed himself to be killed was to prove that the Emperor/Imperium was not above extra-juidicial assassination and violence to remove threats to its social order, the very same "methods" he championed as a violent vigilante and for which he was condamned. Hence, the all rage about "vindication". There was no attonement in his death. Just a self-righteous "gotcha!", you're no better than I am.
They slaughter innumerable humans and leave the rest living in terror.
That is standard procedure in 40k, the Night Haunter though was known for one quality that the other Primarchs lacked, justice, while some Primarchs may have valued beauty, art, strength, faith, or human welfare none of them really cared about what is just, and wanting order and prosperity is different than wanting justice.
Dorn absolutely valued justice, in fact his IF still use trials (read: Phalanx) and he allowed Nathaniel Garro to speak, despite Garro's thing being the most mind-bogglingly insane claim ever (that happened to be true)
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
Dorn absolutely valued justice, in fact his IF still use trials (read: Phalanx) and he allowed Nathaniel Garro to speak, despite Garro's thing being the most mind-bogglingly insane claim ever (that happened to be true)
Uh, I guess.
He also nearly killed Garro because he was butthurt.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
Dorn absolutely valued justice, in fact his IF still use trials (read: Phalanx) and he allowed Nathaniel Garro to speak, despite Garro's thing being the most mind-bogglingly insane claim ever (that happened to be true)
Uh, I guess.
He also nearly killed Garro because he was butthurt.
He pulled the punch.
And it was stated that any other primarch would have killed him outright.
Anyways, for an equivalent, go up to an inquisitor and tell them that the emperor is tainted and you need their help to kill him. Or say that to a SoB.
They will execute you immediately. Only Dorn's sense of fairness and justice kept Garro alive long enough for him to present his evidence.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:
That is standard procedure in 40k, the Night Haunter though was known for one quality that the other Primarchs lacked, justice, while some Primarchs may have valued beauty, art, strength, faith, or human welfare none of them really cared about what is just, and wanting order and prosperity is different than wanting justice.
Vigilantism is not justice. Judge and executioner in one person is not justice. An unaccountable half-god claiming for himself the privilige to decide what deserves punishment and what doesn't is not justice.
He might have "justified" his actions before himself as "justice", just as Angron might have (initially) justified his actions as "the end justify the means". But neither makes any of their actions less the atrocities they were.
All justice is Vigilantism in some way or another.
He might have "justified" his actions before himself as "justice", just as Angron might have (initially) justified his actions as "the end justify the means". But neither makes any of their actions less the atrocities they were.
Everyone in 40k uses the ends justifies the means argument, Curze was only honest about it unlike the Emperor who hid his true colors by letting others do his dirty work.
All justice is Vigilantism in some way or another.
Vigilante: A member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate
Unless you're saying the law works without legal authority?
ZSO SAHALL wrote:
Everyone in 40k uses the ends justifies the means argument, Curze was only honest about it unlike the Emperor who hid his true colors by letting others do his dirty work.
Or he succeeded in bringing the Emperor down to his debased level. That's what Terrorists do. They terrorize you until you start to compromise - at first - and soon forget and/or overlook you ethic considerations and moral standards until you're down in the mess with them and their unfavourable view of the world in general and their opponents/victims in particular, which justfied their terror from the start, has become a perversely self-fullfulling prophecy.
The Emperor may not have been any better than Curze at the start. The 40K Imperium post-Heresy clearly isnt. But that doesn't mean it never was.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
But that doesn't mean it never was.
Was the Imperium better, really? The way I see it if the traitor Legions are evil then the Imperium must be evil for creating them in the first place.
perversely self-fullfulling prophecy.
Like the Emporer forcing Curze to become his tame monster, Curze never even wanted to leave his planet, he wanted to be left alone, it would be like telling a troubled 17 year old you can either go to prison or join the army and then judging him when he becomes a killer.
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
Except they fight for NO ONE'S freedom.
You seem to have your view point thoroughly skewed by reading books written from THEIR PERSPECTIVE. Of course it'll sound reasonable, coming directly from their thoughts, because they have already rationalized it. That's why codices are good, they are usually from the PoV of a neutral fact-stating narrator.
Zweischneid wrote:
Vigilantism is not justice. Judge and executioner in one person is not justice. An unaccountable half-god claiming for himself the privilige to decide what deserves punishment and what doesn't is not justice.
Yes, it's only Justice when it's done by a Government which is an Immortal half God that claims for itself the privilege to decide what deserves punishment what doesn't.
So, yeah, when you think about it there is no such thing as justice, just a near Biblical need for vengeance and the urge to punish disobedience.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Yes, it's only Justice when it's done by a Government which is an Immortal half God that claims for itself the privilege to decide what deserves punishment what doesn't.
So, yeah, when you think about it there is no such thing as justice, just a near Biblical need for vengeance and the urge to punish disobedience.
Not necessarily. Any government, even an imperial one, would necessarily (try to) claim a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, not least to ensure that justice is precisely not punitive, retributive and arbitrary, but consistent, proportionate and transparently rules-based, precisely not religious, but administrative. Attempts to install something akin to a galactic rule of law could easily have been part of the much derided attempts of the Emperor creating bureaucracy (e.g. standard procedures), administration (e.g. universally standardised applications of these procedures) and politics (e.g.distribution of power along with checks-and-balances in the system), which the more old-testamentarian Primarch's instinctively saw as threat to their raison-d'etre.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:
Everyone in 40k uses the ends justifies the means argument, Curze was only honest about it unlike the Emperor who hid his true colors by letting others do his dirty work.
Or he succeeded in bringing the Emperor down to his debased level. That's what Terrorists do. They terrorize you until you start to compromise - at first - and soon forget and/or overlook you ethic considerations and moral standards until you're down in the mess with them and their unfavourable view of the world in general and their opponents/victims in particular, which justfied their terror from the start, has become a perversely self-fullfulling prophecy.
The Emperor may not have been any better than Curze at the start. The 40K Imperium post-Heresy clearly isnt. But that doesn't mean it never was.
Oh, the Emperor was very much on board with Curze's methods. I mean, his thunder warriors were basically rage-gorillas that make Astartes look puny, and their weapons and tactics were designed to be as brutal and terrifying as possible. Unity at the end of a boltgun. If anything, the Emperor didn't go far enough, since he tolerated political dissent and could be influenced by the Terran council (see Council of Nikea). It was due to political pressure that he recalled the Night Lords in the first place. The actual sanction came when Kurze almost murdered Dorn, and then rather than face his other brothers, slaughtered a bunch of custodians and marines and escaped to the unknown regions.
At the end of the day, with his growing schitzophrenia and the ever more criminal recruits, Night Lords very quickly degenerated into brutality for brutality's sake. They were no longer inspiring fear to ensure compliance, they were just getting off on inspiring fear.
Omegus wrote:
Oh, the Emperor was very much on board with Curze's methods. I mean, his thunder warriors were basically rage-gorillas that make Astartes look puny, and their weapons and tactics were designed to be as brutal and terrifying as possible. Unity at the end of a boltgun. If anything, the Emperor didn't go far enough, since he tolerated political dissent and could be influenced by the Terran council (see Council of Nikea). It was due to political pressure that he recalled the Night Lords in the first place. The actual sanction came when Kurze almost murdered Dorn, and then rather than face his other brothers, slaughtered a bunch of custodians and marines and escaped to the unknown regions.
At the end of the day, with his growing schitzophrenia and the ever more criminal recruits, Night Lords very quickly degenerated into brutality for brutality's sake. They were no longer inspiring fear to ensure compliance, they were just getting off on inspiring fear.
Yes and no. The Emperor surely had those aspects in him. But he also had the nobler aspects you'd find in Guilliman, Dorn or others. If you wanna go meta-narrative, the different Primarchs perhaps all expressed parts of the Emperors persona. But Curze was definitly on the darker side of the spectrum. His was part of what the Emperor was, and perhaps he was cast out for this as much as for anything else. It was still only part of what the Emperor was. It was all that Curze was however, with no redeeming factors to balance the viciousness.
Again, yes and no. Kurze's has tragic elements to his tale (although what Primarch doesn't). He took on his father's mission, at the head of a Legion of the same kind of monsters he despised in his childhood, even knowing how his part in it would end. He hated his Legion, and took no joy in what he did.
Spoiler:
"I hate this Legion, Talos.
I destroyed its world to stem the flow of poison.
I will be vindicated soon, and the truest lesson of the Night Lords will be taught.
Do you truly believe I care what happens to any of you after my death?" - Soul Hunter p. 216
"The Night Haunter had never, to Talos’ knowledge, displayed any
human emotion approaching genuine humour. He was amused by nothing. He
enjoyed nothing. Even the bloodiest moments of war set his features in a grim mask
of concentration and infrequent disgust. Battle-lust seemed beyond him, or he had
transcended its feverish joys.
This was the result of sacrificing one’s humanity for the good of the Imperium’s
people. And he would be repaid for his great sacrifice—repaid by the Emperor’s
assassins seeking his lifeblood." - Soul Hunter p. 117.
But for all these noble inclinations, (if you consider a guy whose idea of justice is crucifying and disemboweling anyone who steps out of line "noble"), he was as much a monster as his Legion. If he had a reason for hating them, it's because they learned his lessons all too well. Towards the end, he was purposefully antagonizing the Imperium to force the Emperor to send assassins after him. He hated the Emperor for his supposed betrayal, he hated the planet he grew up on for its corruption and weakness, he hated his brothers for what he perceived as having a better lot in life, he hated his Legion because they were pale reflections of him, and most of all he hated himself for being no better than those he prosecuted. It could be argued that Kurze recognized what he truly was, and wanted to be put out of his misery. All the talk of vindication and lessons was just lip service, and at least some of his Legion recognized this:
Spoiler:
Think of our own father, who ended his life as a conflicted madman—dedicated one moment to teaching the Emperor some grand, idealistic lesson, and devoted the next moment to doing nothing but eating the heart of any slave within reach, while he sat in the Screaming Gallery, laughing and listening to the wails of the damned. - Blood Reaver p. 147
For those who don't recall, the Screaming Gallery served as Kurze's private quarters:
"The Screaming Gallery was in fine voice tonight—an opera of bass moans,piercing cries and the ululating chime of sobbing beneath the other sounds of sorrow."
"The walls, like so much of the Legion’s fortress, were formed from black stone sculpted into forms of torment. Twist-backed humans arched and writhed motionlessly, captured at moments of supreme agony, their wide eyes and screaming mouths shaped by sadistic devotion. Shaped. Not carved." (i.e. most of their fortress was built out of people "dosed with paralytics and coated with rockrete")
"...while the floor either side of the walkway rippled and tensed with the pliancy of human expression. Eyes, noses, teeth, and tongues poking from open mouths…The ground itself was a carpet of faces flesh-crafted together, kept alive by grotesque, baroque blood filters and organ simulator engines beneath the floor."
Pretty hardcore for a Batcave. Kurze himself was pretty metal.
The dark eyes were enlivened by a curdling brightness, suggesting some deep sickness within... his cadaverous visage ...Thin lips revealed a shark’s smile—the warlord’s serrated teeth all filed to arrowhead points. His hair had once been black, Nostraman black—the dark hair of those who grew without true light of the sun. Now its lustre was gone, and a frosting of grey patched close to his temples. The veins canalling below his white skin were bold enough to form a clear map of the subterranean biology at play beneath his face. Here was a fallen prince, gone to the grave, hollowed out by a hatred so strong he could not lie down and die. - Blood Reaver p. 123
He's basically the archtypical Chaos Warlord.
Anyway, how did we get on the topic of Kurze? We're wasting valuable time that could be used to hate on Leman Russ some more.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Yes, it's only Justice when it's done by a Government which is an Immortal half God that claims for itself the privilege to decide what deserves punishment what doesn't.
So, yeah, when you think about it there is no such thing as justice, just a near Biblical need for vengeance and the urge to punish disobedience.
Not necessarily. Any government, even an imperial one, would necessarily (try to) claim a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, not least to ensure that justice is precisely not punitive, retributive and arbitrary, but consistent, proportionate and transparently rules-based, precisely not religious, but administrative. Attempts to install something akin to a galactic rule of law could easily have been part of the much derided attempts of the Emperor creating bureaucracy (e.g. standard procedures), administration (e.g. universally standardised applications of these procedures) and politics (e.g.distribution of power along with checks-and-balances in the system), which the more old-testamentarian Primarch's instinctively saw as threat to their raison-d'etre.
I hate to say it, but law is generally punitive, retributive, arbitrary, inconstant, and in-proportionate. Checks and balances are laughable, and corruption is quietly condoned under a mask of righteousness. The wealthy and influential generally sneer at the law and if the Government isn't on the winning side of the law, they just make new ones to get their way.
Do you truly believe I care what happens to any of you after my death?
The night haunter said and did conflicting things at the time of his death.
suggesting some deep sickness within... his cadaverous visage ...
Their have been hints in several books that something was physically wrong with him, like somehow the emps genes had not settled right in him and he was dying. If so that explains some of his self-destructive behavior.
You also have to take into to account whose saying what. Talos is meant to represent both the present legion as well the melancholy of the Legion, and is even rebuked by others who say "he wanted us to survive the long war" "your not the only one he confided in". Sahaal is his hope, his hope against all odds of winning and creating something better for humanity "and the Imperium will prosper under nocturnal eyes. Most likely he said different things to different captains who connected to him on different levels.
Regardless of what he said to Talos Curze enjoyed far more dedication from his sons that Horus whose legion came to despise him.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Yes, it's only Justice when it's done by a Government which is an Immortal half God that claims for itself the privilege to decide what deserves punishment what doesn't.
So, yeah, when you think about it there is no such thing as justice, just a near Biblical need for vengeance and the urge to punish disobedience.
Not necessarily. Any government, even an imperial one, would necessarily (try to) claim a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, not least to ensure that justice is precisely not punitive, retributive and arbitrary, but consistent, proportionate and transparently rules-based, precisely not religious, but administrative. Attempts to install something akin to a galactic rule of law could easily have been part of the much derided attempts of the Emperor creating bureaucracy (e.g. standard procedures), administration (e.g. universally standardised applications of these procedures) and politics (e.g.distribution of power along with checks-and-balances in the system), which the more old-testamentarian Primarch's instinctively saw as threat to their raison-d'etre.
I hate to say it, but law is generally punitive, retributive, arbitrary, inconstant, and in-proportionate. Checks and balances are laughable, and corruption is quietly condoned under a mask of righteousness. The wealthy and influential generally sneer at the law and if the Government isn't on the winning side of the law, they just make new ones to get their way.
Sadly, I'm not talking about 40k.
I can see you're not an essay writer, as you didn't explain what makes you feel that way.
Punitive and retributive, yes, and there's nothing wrong with that. Arbitrary? Hardly.
Arbitrary: Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
You think laws are just randomly passed for no purpose? A code of laws is needfully specific, having it simplified down to "Don't kill, Don't steal, Don't hit, Don't rape" just doesn't work. Every law passed is thoroughly thought out and voted on.
Inconstant? I don't even get where this is coming from. Is rape "sometimes" okay where you live? I know I am being extremely literal on this one, without an explanation from you to go on, I have to be general.
In-proportionate. Are you saying criminals should spend the weekend in jail for genocide orrrr...? Or are you saying it is too light? Clarify! Statements are useless without supporting arguments!
Corruption is rarer than you seem to think. Very few police officers are ever corrupted. Especially not individuals. You usually see this happen with entire precincts, and there is nothing subtle about it.
The wealthy and influential are brought down harder than anyone. Have you seen the stories in the news about the British man being put on trial for accusations of manipulating prime ministers? Forget the name. Anyways, when rich people are brought down, they really are put to ruin. Even on the occasion they escape conviction with a team of crack lawyers, they are brought down twice as hard by the condemning media and the people.
And WHEN has a major government ever changed the laws to protect themselves? Especially on the personal basis you seem to be hinting at.
You seem to have an overly romanticized, somewhat illogical, Night Lords-series influenced view of the world that is simplified to the point of being incorrect...unless you would care to clarify your points and present solid examples/evidence?
The grimdark tag comes from 40K for a reason; in a universe constantly in turmoil due to war, plagued by suffering and destruction, innocence is dead. The gods have abandoned every race, leaving the various species of the galaxy to fend for themselves. The truth is ever obscured from us by the veil of time and ignorance.
The Imperial truth as taught by the Emperor is dead. The Eldar are a dying race doomed to extinction. The orks are forever in a state of turmoil, fated to endlessly war between each other. The Necrons have lost their souls, and the one true thing they desire with it; life. The Tau are reliant on an Aristocracy of Orwellian proportions led by a ruling caste which condemns the creative mind. The dark eldar are doomed to a slow death from the curse of Slaanesh, prolonged only by suffering of unimaginable proportions. The Space Marines have lost much of the brotherhood they were designed for, now descending into petty squabbles, and fractured to the point that they are near overwhelmed. The Tyranids are fated to consume prey until they are destroyed or starve. Even the forces of Chaos can never truly gain control, as they war amongst themselves in a constant battle for control over the Immaterium and real space.
...So yeah, it's all pretty depressing. All that to say that the 40K universe is not designed to have good factions. The only good in the galaxy is found in brave individuals that fight the spread of discord in an attempt to bring harmony to the galaxy. The space wolves are no exception to this rule.
