In this thread, we shall list units that are currently useless... and write rules that make them better. Or even remotely useful.

Like, the Dais of Destruction...

Dais of Destruction - 300 (?) points (plus Vect's 240)

WS8 BS8 S3 Fr13 Sd13 Rr13 I5 A5

Fast, Skimmer, Open-Topped, Transport capacity 12

Wargear
As he is always an integral part of the Dais, Vect may use any of his weapons while on the Dais. Therefore, he may use his Obsidian Orbs or Splinter Pistol to fire from the Dais and while the Dais is in close combat he will attack with his Sceptre of the Dark City and Splinter Pistol. Note that it is he and his incubi bodyguards who are attacking in close combat, not the Dais itself.

The Dais itself is armed with a void lance and two void disintegrators, as well as Flickerfields and Night Shields.

Void Lance - 36", S9 AP2 Assault 1, lance (same as Voidraven)
Void Disintegrator - 36", S7 AP2 heavy 1, blast, rending OR 36", S4 AP3 Heavy 3

Special Rules
Aerial Assault

Personal Transport: Vect cannot dismount from the Dais of Destruction. The Dais also carries Vect’s two Incubi bodyguards, who will defend their master in close combat with 2 WS5 S4 power weapon attacks. When the Dais is destroyed Vect is treated like an embarked passenger, however his Incubi bodyguards are killed along with the vehicle crew.

Close Combat: The Dais fights in close combat like a walker and can charge 12”, providing it did not move flat out in its last movement phase. Due to its size and bulk, it counts as being equipped with frag grenades.

Dark Scythe: Once per game, Vect may channel his energy into the Dais’ Dark Scythe. He may not take any other action on the turn he does this except moving in the movement phase, although the Dais may only move at combat speed (6”).
The Dark Scythe has the following profile: Range, Hellstorm template, S10 AP1 Ordnance 1 Lance
The Dark Scythe will cause D3 hits to any vehicle it touches.

No Mercy, No Respite: The Dais is equipped with powerful force fields that make it almost immune to lesser damage. It ignores Crew Shaken results on a 2+ and Crew Stunned results on a 4+.

Options
+The Dais may replace any of its void disintegrators with void lances……free
+The Dais may replace its void lance with a void disintegrator………………free


Go! Re-write the rules for the units you currently think of as useless.

Death Company:

If Lemartes is chosen, the death company's rage is tempered and directed by the veteran chaplain, as he guides them in the name of the Emperor.

In game terms, the Death Company becomes controllable. Huzzah!

Sniper Rifles, I already posted a thread about.

Honestly I think just letting the Dais take upgrades would make it more palatable, though changing the Darklances to Void Lances certainly wouldn't hurt.

Court of the Archon: Each option is a 0+ choice. (Instead of 1+)

Mandrakes: Add "Shadowy Terror." The unit counts as having Plasma Grenades (Their uncanny grace allows them to move around objects and through the shadows they cast, making their assault impossible to predict)
Add: Additional close combat weapon.
Add: When the mandrakes gain a second pain token, they count all attacks (including ranged) as rending. When they gain a third, they count ranged attacks as AP1 and CC attacks as power weapons.
Add: "Devil's Due." If the game ends and the Mandrakes are still alive (even if they are fleeing) but they do not have a pain token, your enemy nominates one HQ selection that you control. That HQ selection and the mandrakes count as having been destroyed. The Mandrakes will collect their payment, by any means necessary!

I know!

Lets give Monolithes Quantum Shielding! AV 16 anyone? With old school Living Metal and new one!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
/sarcasm


If Death Company lost rage they would be game breaking. The Dais is already nasty. Vect+Lelith+8 Bloodbrides in a flying Land Raider? No thanks.

Ahem..from a thread that I made.

Flayed One - 15pts a model
Elite Choice
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I2 A3 Ld10 Sv4+

Unit Size: 5-20

Wargear = Filthy Claws, disturbing apparel

Filthy Claws = The Flayed One's claws are coated with rotten pieces of meat and old blood. This naturally is a breeding ground for bacteria.
The Flayed One has poisoned (4+) attacks. They count as one weapon, and as such will not grant the bonus for 2 close combat weapons.

Disturbing Apparel = The Flayed One is draped in the rotting skin of their victims, and their gears are often clogged with the flesh and blood of their prey.
Any enemy unit in CC with a unit of Flayed Ones must take a leadership test at the beginning of the round. If they fail, they must reroll all successful hits against the flayed ones.
This ability has no effect on fearless models; they simply are not phased.

Special Rules -
Deepstrike, infiltrate, Fearless, the hunger, Resurrection Protocols

The Hunger = Flayed Ones may never consolidate after close combat. They are too busy feeding.

Ogryn
WS4 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I3 A3 Ld6 Sv5+
35 Points per model 45 for bone'ead
Unit Size: 3-10 Ogryn
Upgrades
Can take a weapon that makes their attacks +2 strength and replaces the ripper gun

Rending
Furious Charge

Buttons wrote:Ogryn
WS4 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I3 A3 Ld6 Sv5+
35 Points per model 45 for bone'ead
Unit Size: 3-10 Ogryn
Upgrades
Can take a weapon that makes their attacks +2 strength and replaces the ripper gun

Rending
Furious Charge

\

I understand the furious charge, but why rending? And aren't the current rules concerning the ripper gun better than here?
As I understand it, Ogryns ATM can get both the ripper gun and a strength bonus.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Buttons wrote:Ogryn
WS4 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I3 A3 Ld6 Sv5+
35 Points per model 45 for bone'ead
Unit Size: 3-10 Ogryn
Upgrades
Can take a weapon that makes their attacks +2 strength and replaces the ripper gun

Rending
Furious Charge

\

I understand the furious charge, but why rending? And aren't the current rules concerning the ripper gun better than here?
As I understand it, Ogryns ATM can get both the ripper gun and a strength bonus.

Rending is to make them better against armoured enemies in hand to hand as well as vehicles. Besides they are giant hairless gorillas, I am fairly certain they could smash something apart with their brute strength regardless of armour, which rending represents rather well. I noticed that they actually have furious charge, which I tossed in because they should have it and I was too lazy to check my codex beforehand. As for the strength bonus, I can't find anything relating to it.

Pretty much the main point is to make Ogryn better against vehicles and MEQs through the rending and MCs through the strength bonus. Besides they get three attacks, 4 on the charge, which is the same as a daemonette and more than a genestealer, so they have enough to justify rending.

Not quite, I'm afraid.

Orks have 3+ attacks, and they don't have rending. Neither do scarabs.
However, I do agree that they should be able to bash through armor.
Perhaps a -1 save modifier on the charge? That should represent their sheer brute force when they are on the warpath.

Of course, if they do get a weapon that gives then +2 strength they shouldn't have the bonus against vehicles. S8 on the charge with 4 attacks will have them ripping apart most vehicles.

The problem with close combat rending is that its more to represent sharp claws rather than brute strength, which is why wraiths, genestealers and demonettes get it.

Assault cannons and sniper rifles also get it, but they are ranged weaponry and so require a different criteria. AC get rending to represent the sheer velocity of the bullets, and sniper rifles get it to represent the hit slipping through armor.

I am sure they get a S bonus from the ripper gun. Then again, I may be thinking of the old codex.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Not quite, I'm afraid.

Orks have 3+ attacks, and they don't have rending. Neither do scarabs.
However, I do agree that they should be able to bash through armor.
Perhaps a -1 save modifier on the charge? That should represent their sheer brute force when they are on the warpath.

Of course, if they do get a weapon that gives then +2 strength they shouldn't have the bonus against vehicles. S8 on the charge with 4 attacks will have them ripping apart most vehicles.

The problem with close combat rending is that its more to represent sharp claws rather than brute strength, which is why wraiths, genestealers and demonettes get it.

Assault cannons and sniper rifles also get it, but they are ranged weaponry and so require a different criteria. AC get rending to represent the sheer velocity of the bullets, and sniper rifles get it to represent the hit slipping through armor.

I am sure they get a S bonus from the ripper gun. Then again, I may be thinking of the old codex.

Even if rending represents sharp claws and whatnot, Ogryn should get something similar since they have enough strength to simply toss an Eldar or human across a room with ease they could probably smash apart marine armour through brute force. Maybe give them their own special rule similar to rending. Perhaps for every 6 rolled during wounding rolls the opponent has to reroll successful saves. I can check out heresy's combat calculator to see how they might do against enemies.

As for the strength bonus I cannot find anything about it, looking at the entry they have the same basic stats mentioned, the furious charge, stubborn, and bulky special rules, and a ripper gun, which only has the same rules as any other assault weapon.

Yeah, they removed it then.
In the previous IG codex the ripper guns gave ogryns a +1 S bonus in CC.
No idea why they removed it :/

Either reroll successful armor saves, negative save modifiers or a roll of a 6 to wound causes another save all sound good and fluffy to me.

Just give them rending against non vehicles.

TankBustas:

Replace Glory Hounds with Preferred Enemy: Vehicle.

Would do gak except against walkers. PE only works against models with a WS.

Whatever, then. Give them Tank Hunters, then.

Yeah, I never understood why they never had Tank Hunters to bein with.
I mean, they are Tank Hunters! Well Tank Bustas...you get the idea.

Monoliths should have the following rule :

Light of Oblivion:

When a Monolith enters the game via deep strike it doesn't scatter. The Monolith is allowed to deep strike onto enemy models, these get struck by surges of green light while the Monolith materializes. Every enemy model within 6" takes a str 3 ap - hit. If the model is still alive it must move out of 6" range of the monolith. This distance is travelled alligned with the central point of the monolith.

Points wise the Monolith will cost a tad more (220p)

Also tank bustas should have tank hunters! c'mon they NOW DA BEST WAY TO KILL SUCH TANKS!

Sounds reasonable.

I would just give the monolith its DS immunity back. Or even better, have it Tank Shock/Ram on arrival.
It shall be known as the paperweight of death!

Make its tank shock cause a morale test at -4 Ld. +3 to ram strength.

Deadshot wrote:Make its tank shock cause a morale test at -4 Ld. +3 to ram strength.

I dunno...its already at a fairly high S.

I mean, DS is at cruising speed so S4. Monoliths are AV14 so that's S4+4. And its a tank, giving it S4+4+1.
This brings it at a total of S9. The -4 modifier to Ld is fairly OTT.

I would just have it Tank Shock/Ram on arrival and keep it at 200pts.

Of course, for balance reasons every other vehicle that can DS should also be able to Tank Shock/Ram.

No I meant instead of TS on arrival.

Give lictor/deathleaper a special rule to assault on turn of arrival, simply because they then don't die.
Also any ideas about the old one eye? I mean he sucks so bad, flash gitts laugh at him

Triarch Praetorians

2 Attacks

Abaddon's wacky daemon weapon.

If Abaddon rolls one for his Daemon Weapon attacks, he does not take a wound, he simply counts as Fighting with a Lightning Claw or Power Weapon and losses the bonuses of the Daemon Weapon for that turn.

Conscripts
Make Chenkov a replacement for a company commander instead of a platoon commander.

That is all, then I could take 4-5 basic platoons with Chenkov and spam conscripts with send in the next wave, 200-250 conscripts that keep coming back. Bow before my endless horde of conscripts. Either that or lower their costs to 3 points per model. Also makes all your lascannons and railguns and plasma guns and meltaguns a waste.

But you would fear the Pieplate like no other.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I understand the furious charge, but why rending?

Personally, I suspect that it's because it seems pretty much everyone and their mothers seems to think Rending is the instant-fix/solution to any rules problem?

@Buttons, On-topic, 4 Strength 6 attacks on the charge is plenty anti-tank and perfectly suitable for representing their strength IMHO.
I'd say drop rending, up their leadership and depending on ripper guns and transport-capacity-occupying, they'd be worth about 30pts.

blood reaper wrote:Abaddon's wacky daemon weapon.

If Abaddon rolls one for his Daemon Weapon attacks, he does not take a wound, he simply counts as Fighting with a Lightning Claw or Power Weapon and losses the bonuses of the Daemon Weapon for that turn.

Despite this being pretty much the exact change I made to his Daemon Weapon, I'd say more than that is needed to make him truly worth his cost; particularly a change to his manoeuvrability.

Flash gits: Reduce WS to3, increase BS to 3.
give badrukk BS 3 as well.

Also, change Gitfinda to allow a choice between Pre-measuring, or allowing the unit to split fire to up to 1d3 targets chosen at the start of the shooting phase.

Deadshot wrote:But you would fear the Pieplate like no other.

So? My squads start to run low I just kill them off and replace them. TBF the unit would still probably be a second rate unit, but at least it wouldn't be a third rate unit.


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Just Dave wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I understand the furious charge, but why rending?

Personally, I suspect that it's because it seems pretty much everyone and their mothers seems to think Rending is the instant-fix/solution to any rules problem?

@Buttons, On-topic, 4 Strength 6 attacks on the charge is plenty anti-tank and perfectly suitable for representing their strength IMHO.
I'd say drop rending, up their leadership and depending on ripper guns and transport-capacity-occupying, they'd be worth about 30pts.

I actually did some quick math hammer and rending was worthless, in the Ogryn thread I came up with this idea that seems workable.
"... for every 2 strength greater than their target's toughness they (the target) have a -1 modifer on their armour saves. So a group of Ogryn with base strength 5, +2 strength due to weapons, and furious charge would modify MEQs to having a 5+ armour save, guards and Orks wouldn't get and armour save at all."

Leman Russ Punisher- As is it looks nice on paper, but honestly 20 str 5 ap - shots don't really do much. That and its short range and expensive, why take this and not a freakin demolisher?

If you are going to keep the points as-is, here's how I would change the Punisher's gun:

Str 6 AP6 Heavy 10 Range 36 Counts as twin-linked

Now you have something comparable to the exterminator, only with more armor, more shots, less range, less strength. It would make an effective anti-monstrous creature platform.

Deadshot wrote:I know!

The Dais is already nasty. Vect+Lelith+8 Bloodbrides in a flying Land Raider? No thanks.

Actually it's pretty useless atm. AV13 open topped is easy to kill. No FF hurt it and it's probably 20-50 points too expensive with no Aerial Assault. Also, I liked the assault mechanism on the old one and the dark scythe on the one in DoW Soulstorm.

Buttons wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I understand the furious charge, but why rending?

Personally, I suspect that it's because it seems pretty much everyone and their mothers seems to think Rending is the instant-fix/solution to any rules problem?

@Buttons, On-topic, 4 Strength 6 attacks on the charge is plenty anti-tank and perfectly suitable for representing their strength IMHO.
I'd say drop rending, up their leadership and depending on ripper guns and transport-capacity-occupying, they'd be worth about 30pts.

I actually did some quick math hammer and rending was worthless, in the Ogryn thread I came up with this idea that seems workable.
"... for every 2 strength greater than their target's toughness they (the target) have a -1 modifer on their armour saves. So a group of Ogryn with base strength 5, +2 strength due to weapons, and furious charge would modify MEQs to having a 5+ armour save, guards and Orks wouldn't get and armour save at all."

By worthless, you mean Rending allows them to penetrate a vehicle of any armour value, almost doubles the number of wounds against MeQ and makes them capable against targets of any armour value? With Rending, Ogryn's strike with the power of an Assault Cannon and harder than Thunderwolf Cavalry.

I don't see the need for the +2 Strength/save-modifier weapon either. To me, Ogryn should have a weakness and considering they fight with little more than their bare-fists, it makes sense that this weakness is a high armour save. With a +2 Strength weapon (let alone rending as well), they'd have 4 Str8, Initiative 4 attacks on the charge.
Ogryn still strike frickin' hard, [5 Ogryn's] still inflict over 3 penetrating hits (on average) on the charge against a Leman Russ and they still have 3 T5 wounds.
I'm not claiming them to be perfect or a particularly good unit, but I don't think rending is a suitable change - or worthless - and I don't think they really need save modifiers, but such a save modifier could work on the Bone'ead.
A unit doesn't need to ignore armour saves to be a viable assault units, so long as they have other strengths; just look at 'Zerkers, Orks etc. For Ogryn's, this additional ability can be their strength and toughness.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is Ogryn's main weakness is their high price; this is easy to change, and doesn't require abilities such as rending or other save modifiers; look at Grotesques for example.

Just Dave wrote:

By worthless, you mean Rending allows them to penetrate a vehicle of any armour value, almost doubles the number of wounds against MeQ and makes them capable against targets of any armour value? With Rending, Ogryn's strike with the power of an Assault Cannon and harder than Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Except it really doesn't help. Doing some math hammer a group of 5 Ogryn with a Bone'ead will average about 9.5 hits, so about 1.5 rending hits, I don't think one or two extra MEQs dead is as big a deal as you make it out to be, it only really makes a difference with terminators. Also, I would never use Ogryn to charge vehicles anyway because I have several cheaper and all around more useful options that won't run away if someone looks at them in a bad way. I could deep strike storm troopers, I could use a heavy weapon squad with lascannons, I could use a Vendetta, I could use a Vanquisher, I could use a Demolisher, I could use melta vets.

I don't see the need for the +2 Strength/save-modifier weapon either. To me, Ogryn should have a weakness and considering they fight with little more than their bare-fists, it makes sense that this weakness is a high armour save. With a +2 Strength weapon (let alone rending as well), they'd have 4 Str8, Initiative 4 attacks on the charge.

Except they are weak against most close combat armies, they lack the ability to punch through MEQs armour, and they lack the ability to cut through hordes of Orks, averaging only about 6 wounds on the charge. Woohoo I cut down 6 out of 30 boyz, oh happy days, just wait until they kill off 1/5th-2/5ths of my entire unit when they hit back. Honestly the only thing I could see them charging and winning are Tau battlesuits and maybe a monsterous creature since they have such a high strength and so many attacks.

Ogryn still strike frickin' hard, [5 Ogryn's] still inflict over 3 penetrating hits (on average) on the charge against a Leman Russ and they still have 3 T5 wounds.

Except as I said there is no need to use them against tanks. I would definitely use them against a tank if I got the chance, I am not debating that. I am debating that for a dedicated close combat unit they are pretty weak.

A unit doesn't need to ignore armour saves to be a viable assault units, so long as they have other strengths; just look at 'Zerkers, Orks etc. For Ogryn's, this additional ability can be their strength and toughness.

Except Zerkers and Orks both have a lot going for them, Zerkers have a 3+ armour save and won't run if you shoot at them a little, Orks are cheap and you can reasonably expect something to reach the enemy even without a transport. With Ogryn you NEED a transport limiting the size of your unit, you have poor morale and you are expensive. Beyond that, while each model has a lot of attacks they don't have that many as a whole and are pretty much tied with a 10 man squad of guardsmen for the total number of attacks on the charge.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is Ogryn's main weakness is their high price; this is easy to change, and doesn't require abilities such as rending or other save modifiers; look at Grotesques for example.

Except it is more than the price because they are practically worthless. I wouldn't take Ogryn for 10 points per model, because then I would have to buy a transport as well, I can't charge anything with a 3+ save because I will only kill like 3 models on the charge, and if I charge horde armies odds are I will simply get bogged down. The only use I could see for them is fighting an MC, or sitting back in a transport near an objective and charging the enemy if they get too close, maybe holding them off for 2 turns if I am lucky.

Buttons wrote:Except it is more than the price because they are practically worthless. I wouldn't take Ogryn for 10 points per model

In which case it's not worth continuing this debate, exaggeration or not.

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/ogryns-shunned-abused.html

Lychguard

WS5, 2+, Stubborn



Flayed Ones

WS5 power weapons/rending (4+)

Ethereal
25 Pts
WS2
BS2
T3
S2
W2
I2
A2
LD10
5++
Special Rules: none

Totally better now.

Tactical Marines: May take 1 of any special weapon option available for every 5 marines.

Ork Vehicles: Gretchin Pilot standard.

Gretchin: Maximum squad size 100. Can have squigz.

Big Gunz: More of everything.


Sisters of Battle: Immolators don't suck again. Faith doesn't suck again. Canoness can be good again.

Gray Knights: Draigo doesn't win you the game when you field him. Something about this needs to be done.

Daemons: Can assault on deepstrike for dangerous terrain test. Troops pointcost reduction or stats buff. Furies have to be good, @Current cost +1I +1A Fleet. More unit options and daemonic gift toys.

Venom Cannon: Assault 2. At least. No more neg mod to vehicle pen. HVC is large blast assault 2.

Warriors 1/3 can take venom cannon / barbed.

Barbed: Toughness or Str on each model hit. Failed tests lower the unit's Ld by 1 for pinning. Pinning from this affects fearless units because it's not about fearlessness.

Warriors: W2 T5 or bring back eternal warrior synapse.

Monstrous Creatures + Poison - 2+ poison.

Monstrous Creatures: In synapse range, only lose 2 wounds instead of dying to ID weapons.

Trygon Prime - +30 points for synapse on top of the +40
Trygon - -20 points base.
Carnifex - -25 points base OR +2W
wargear differentials allowed, +1BS skill given, moar wargear choices. I want my dakkafexes. I want my CCfexes. I want to be able to mix and match. Optional: Ram ability, allowed to take them as elites if you take them 1/time

Elites Section: Ymgarl as GS upgrades. Pyrovores as Biovore alternates. Lictors in Fast Attack and Deathleaper as an upgrade. Lictors made so much better please they are so bad. Malanthropes as Zoanthrope upgrade, or as nonfoc unit. Remaining: Zoanthropes, Hiveguard. Everything that's needed >:C


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Savageconvoy wrote:Ethereal
25 Pts
WS2
BS2
T3
S2
W2
I2
A2
LD10
5++
Special Rules: none

Totally better now.

S2? Why S2 when no other Tau has S2? Not gonna touch anything else as you're obviously not big on Tau lore, or don't care, but even a glance at the book will tell you that S2 has no place in Tau.

chrisrawr wrote:

Savageconvoy wrote:Ethereal
25 Pts
WS2
BS2
T3
S2
W2
I2
A2
LD10
5++
Special Rules: none

Totally better now.

S2? Why S2 when no other Tau has S2? Not gonna touch anything else as you're obviously not big on Tau lore, or don't care, but even a glance at the book will tell you that S2 has no place in Tau.

I think he was being sarcastic

Ogryn are fine as they are, but rending would be a nice upgrade. That way they still have their primary role, but would be a little better against those things that they're just totally crappy against. Better idea than giving them power weapons.

The punisher is just fine as it is, it just needs to be brought down to 150 points like the LRBT or exterminator.

My unit to fix would be the vanquisher. 1 shot BS3 S8 opponents keep cover. Against AV14 when it's popping smoke that's a 1/2 to hit, times roughly 2/3 to pen, times 1/3 to kill, times 1/2 to get around cover. The odds are just too long to make this vehicle viable.

In order to fix it, you've got to make one or two of these odds improve drastically. Examples include making it twin-linked, making it S10, making it Ap1, or making it ignore cover saves. Or you could go a different tack and make it a heavy 2 weapon or give it back a blast so that it could do ANYTHING to infantry models.

On a similar note, the eradicator needs Ap3 like its artillery counterpart. Without Ap3, there is absolutely no reason to ever take this tank ever. Hike the price by 20 points if you have to, but this unit is unsalvageable otherwise.

Large hordes of campers? Shoota Boys or Termagants in cover?

Ailaros wrote:Ogryn are fine as they are, but rending would be a nice upgrade. That way they still have their primary role, but would be a little better against those things that they're just totally crappy against. Better idea than giving them power weapons.

The simplest change to make Ogryns a top of the line unit, instead of just in the middle, would be to let them have an upgrade Commisar the same as Infantry Platoons get.


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chrisrawr wrote:
Sisters of Battle: Immolators don't suck again. Faith doesn't suck again. Canoness can be good again.

Gray Knights: Draigo doesn't win you the game when you field him. Something about this needs to be done.

This thinking is objectively wrong.

Chaos Raptors............. 18 Points Each
- 5-20 models
- Same stats, but with 5 initiative standard
- All raptors may take a set of (Insert name here) for free if the chief does not take a shooting weapon, or for 2 points otherwise
- (insert name here)-- A set of (INH) counts as a single close combat weapon that adds two attacks to the models base stat. Furthermore, during the assault phase after a successful charge, models equipped with (INH) may re-roll failed rolls of 1 or 2.
- Four Models may take a melta gun, but only if the champion takes one, and (INH) may not be taken by any other models (10 points each)

- Raptor Chief
- A single raptor may be upgraded to a chief at a cost of 32 points. The Raptor Chief has the following profile:
5 4 4 4 2 5 5 10 3+
And may exchange his close combat weapon or bolt pistol for:
Power fist--- 25
Power Weapon--- 10
Lightning Claws (set)--- 15
Melta Gun--- 10 Points

May take a wrist mounted Melta gun or Plasma pistol for 20 points each. Note that the wrist mounted weapons do not count against the unit being able to take (INH) for free

Just some thoughts of mine. I've always imagined raptors would have a totally different organization, and I'm imagined there wouldn't be any mixed roles in a dedicated raptor unit, only definite, clear goals (ie, assault or tank busting or infantry mowing, which I didn't include).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Ogryn are fine as they are, but rending would be a nice upgrade. That way they still have their primary role, but would be a little better against those things that they're just totally crappy against. Better idea than giving them power weapons.

The simplest change to make Ogryns a top of the line unit, instead of just in the middle, would be to let them have an upgrade Commisar the same as Infantry Platoons get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chrisrawr wrote:
Sisters of Battle: Immolators don't suck again. Faith doesn't suck again. Canoness can be good again.

Gray Knights: Draigo doesn't win you the game when you field him. Something about this needs to be done.

This thinking is objectively wrong.

It appears our cynistical depulsors cannot handle this many gigalulz.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Chaos Raptors............. 18 Points Each
- 5-20 models
- Same stats, but with 5 initiative standard

Why? Their initiative is already fine.
- All raptors may take a set of (Insert name here) for free if the chief does not take a shooting weapon, or for 2 points otherwise

Samus_aran115 wrote:
- (insert name here)-- A set of (INH) counts as a single close combat weapon that adds two attacks to the models base stat. Furthermore, during the assault phase after a successful charge, models equipped with (INH) may re-roll failed rolls of 1 or 2.

What is a "successful charge"?
What are the re-rolling?
Why do you think Raptors should be both cheaper and better than Assault Marines? That line of wrong thinking produced Grey Hunters.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Just some thoughts of mine. I've always imagined raptors would have a totally different organization, and I'm imagined there wouldn't be any mixed roles in a dedicated raptor unit, only definite, clear goals (ie, assault or tank busting or infantry mowing, which I didn't include).

Raptors have no organization at all. They're just chaos marines that like jetting around fast and hanging out with other guys that jet around fast.

DarknessEternal wrote:Why do you think Raptors should be both cheaper and better than Assault Marines? That line of wrong thinking produced Grey Hunters.

I'm not saying I agree with Samus' proposed changes, but...

... Assault Marines are 18pts, with a 10pts upgrade for the sergeant; they would not be cheaper. N.B: Aspiring Champions are optional and 15pts each.
... Assault Marines are pretty weak, Raptors should be made better IMHO.

Painbiro wrote:In this thread, we shall list units that are currently useless... and write rules that make them better. Or even remotely useful.

Like, the Dais of Destruction...

Dais of Destruction - 300 (?) points (plus Vect's 240)

WS8 BS8 S3 Fr13 Sd13 Rr13 I5 A5

Fast, Skimmer, Open-Topped, Transport capacity 12

Wargear
As he is always an integral part of the Dais, Vect may use any of his weapons while on the Dais. Therefore, he may use his Obsidian Orbs or Splinter Pistol to fire from the Dais and while the Dais is in close combat he will attack with his Sceptre of the Dark City and Splinter Pistol. Note that it is he and his incubi bodyguards who are attacking in close combat, not the Dais itself.

The Dais itself is armed with a void lance and two void disintegrators, as well as Flickerfields and Night Shields.

Void Lance - 36", S9 AP2 Assault 1, lance (same as Voidraven)
Void Disintegrator - 36", S7 AP2 heavy 1, blast, rending OR 36", S4 AP3 Heavy 3

Special Rules
Aerial Assault

Personal Transport: Vect cannot dismount from the Dais of Destruction. The Dais also carries Vect’s two Incubi bodyguards, who will defend their master in close combat with 2 WS5 S4 power weapon attacks. When the Dais is destroyed Vect is treated like an embarked passenger, however his Incubi bodyguards are killed along with the vehicle crew.

Close Combat: The Dais fights in close combat like a walker and can charge 12”, providing it did not move flat out in its last movement phase. Due to its size and bulk, it counts as being equipped with frag grenades.

Dark Scythe: Once per game, Vect may channel his energy into the Dais’ Dark Scythe. He may not take any other action on the turn he does this except moving in the movement phase, although the Dais may only move at combat speed (6”).
The Dark Scythe has the following profile: Range, Hellstorm template, S10 AP1 Ordnance 1 Lance
The Dark Scythe will cause D3 hits to any vehicle it touches.

No Mercy, No Respite: The Dais is equipped with powerful force fields that make it almost immune to lesser damage. It ignores Crew Shaken results on a 2+ and Crew Stunned results on a 4+.

Options
+The Dais may replace any of its void disintegrators with void lances……free
+The Dais may replace its void lance with a void disintegrator………………free


Go! Re-write the rules for the units you currently think of as useless.

way too complicated.
just give it aerial assault, let it take vehicle upgrades, remove the capacity requirement, and make it cost 150 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reaver Jetbikes:
Add scouts to allow them to outflank or scout move in the begining of the game. They can turbo boost but they cannot bladevane(as they cannot move within 12" of enemy units)

In addition if you roll a 1 for combat drugs let them run and give them fleet. But only if they roll a 1.

@DE I don't know if you know where you are, but this is the PR forum, where we propose changes to make our games more fun. What we are doing here, in this thread, is taking vanilla units or useless units - units that have no place in their codex for being subpar options, or units we just want to see changes happen in - and proposing things to make them better.

With that context in mind, I'm sure you'll be happy to pitch in with some changes of your own, instead of telling other people their fun is wrong fun?

A successful charge is a charge that has been found to be in range. It's a carry-over term from WHFB which a lot of converts use and which has stuck-in the 40k community.

Eldar Shining Spears - Ram attack where they get bonuses depending on how far they moved. Forgo movement in the movement phase, move up to 24" in the assault phase in one direction. Declare distance before charging, the closer you are to the declared distance, the more of a bonus you get? Rewards you for something other than just declaring max distance :V

Eldar Vypers, Guardians.

I support Just Dave's Eldar Codex rules changes for them.
Give Vypers an assault move, like Eldar Jetbikes. Give Guardians something neat like Scout, so they can Outflank, be more mobile (basic Eldar should be very fast to offset their poor strength/toughness, and poor BS on guardians)

Vanilla Assault Marines, make them less expensive, maybe more grenade or weapons options. Something to make them more effective. Like allow them to take Tactical Squad gear? Jump Marines with Bolters and Plasmaguns vs assault weapons? Hmm, sounds fun at least.

I fully believe EVERY UNIT in the game should have at least 1 reason to use it. Make every unit worth bringing, tactically.

The rule book....
It fails to deliver the game play most games manage with less than HALF the pages of rules.
Its clunky counter intuitive game mechaics and resolution methods are fine for pimping new minature releases .But make acceptable levels of game ballance nearly impossible.
Internal and external ballance across the armies, as well as rule set complication to game complexity.
Mainly due to using inapropriate game mechanics that need several resolution methods to cover ONE interation

Looking at Epic Armageddon rule set as a comparison. the current 40k rules achive very little in the way of game complexity , but take alot of words to do it!

All the post so far about how things are useless , can only be viewed as subjective opinion.As the rules set for 40k is not written objectivley for its game play.
(If it was the rules book would only be 20 to 30 pages long!And it would be far easier to achive game ballance,too!)

Please feel free to continue to discuss the symptoms of a rule set that is in desperate need of a re-write...

Lanrak wrote:.As the rules set for 40k is not written objectivley for its game play.

Not only is this false, it's impossible. The 40k rulebook is the book which contains the rules. It is, by definition, written for its game play.

vannila Assaultmarines are kind of useless as written. To make them not useless I would change the rules for jump packs.

Jump packs: all the same movement rules plus, Death from a Above: when a unit equiped with jumpack charges, for each model equiped with a jumppack inflict a strength 4 hit. Resolve wounds as normal but these attacks occure before the start of the assault phase and ignor armour.

Basically give assault marines 5 auto hit poweweapon attacks at S4 when they charge.

Hell no to ignore armor, but a straight S4 hit is fine.
The only other thing that could do that is Zagstruck, and he's a special character with a friggen power klaw for a foot.

Back to ogryns you can't argue the rules are rubbish because in the fluff it's says there epic (or it might not but that seems to be what people make of it) because if you read the fluff for any thing they are epic because otherwise you could say that because scarabs can convert all and any matter into pure energy you could say that they ignore armour saves instant death and auto wound!

Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

TheMind wrote:Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

Isn't 7 points a bit low? I would think 10pts is more like it.
Is there a frame of reference for a WS2 (I think) BS4 T3 S3 I2 A1 Sv4+ model that comes with an S5 AP5 rifle?

mandrakes to start the game WITH a pain token, thats all I ask :3

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheMind wrote:Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

Isn't 7 points a bit low? I would think 10pts is more like it.
Is there a frame of reference for a WS2 (I think) BS4 T3 S3 I2 A1 Sv4+ model that comes with an S5 AP5 rifle?

I don't believe so. I would contend, after talking to many of the players in my local group, and reading what I could of Fire Warriors on the web, that even with the increase to BS 4 that the point decrease is still necessary. Given this, a standard Space Marine, with the vastly superior statline, 3+ save, and similar unit size, is only 5 points more then a Fire Warrior right now, while being VASTLY superior. (Not sure if we're allowed to post points values of models). Guardsmen cost half as much per model, but have a special rule that allows them to form squads of thirty, have a crap ton more options, and have the Orders system, which allows them to twinlink their weapons for a turn, fire twice in a turn, for a turn (while already having a weapon with rapid fire), or even rally after failing a rally check. Hell a Guard vet squad, where the models only cost two points more then regular vet squads, can take three melta guns and sit pretty at less then the cost of a full squad of un-upgraded fire warriors.

TheMind wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheMind wrote:Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

Isn't 7 points a bit low? I would think 10pts is more like it.
Is there a frame of reference for a WS2 (I think) BS4 T3 S3 I2 A1 Sv4+ model that comes with an S5 AP5 rifle?

I don't believe so. I would contend, after talking to many of the players in my local group, and reading what I could of Fire Warriors on the web, that even with the increase to BS 4 that the point decrease is still necessary. Given this, a standard Space Marine, with the vastly superior statline, 3+ save, and similar unit size, is only 5 points more then a Fire Warrior right now, while being VASTLY superior. (Not sure if we're allowed to post points values of models). Guardsmen cost half as much per model, but have a special rule that allows them to form squads of thirty, have a crap ton more options, and have the Orders system, which allows them to twinlink their weapons for a turn, fire twice in a turn, for a turn (while already having a weapon with rapid fire), or even rally after failing a rally check. Hell a Guard vet squad, where the models only cost two points more then regular vet squads, can take three melta guns and sit pretty at less then the cost of a full squad of un-upgraded fire warriors.

How many points are vets? Cause FW should be cheaper than them, no question. Vets are 12pts aren't they?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheMind wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheMind wrote:Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

Isn't 7 points a bit low? I would think 10pts is more like it.
Is there a frame of reference for a WS2 (I think) BS4 T3 S3 I2 A1 Sv4+ model that comes with an S5 AP5 rifle?

I don't believe so. I would contend, after talking to many of the players in my local group, and reading what I could of Fire Warriors on the web, that even with the increase to BS 4 that the point decrease is still necessary. Given this, a standard Space Marine, with the vastly superior statline, 3+ save, and similar unit size, is only 5 points more then a Fire Warrior right now, while being VASTLY superior. (Not sure if we're allowed to post points values of models). Guardsmen cost half as much per model, but have a special rule that allows them to form squads of thirty, have a crap ton more options, and have the Orders system, which allows them to twinlink their weapons for a turn, fire twice in a turn, for a turn (while already having a weapon with rapid fire), or even rally after failing a rally check. Hell a Guard vet squad, where the models only cost two points more then regular vet squads, can take three melta guns and sit pretty at less then the cost of a full squad of un-upgraded fire warriors.

How many points are vets? Cause FW should be cheaper than them, no question. Vets are 12pts aren't they?

Vets are 7 points a pop. A squad of 9 and a sergeant is 70 pnts.

Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

BA captains could use a boost

Allow them to take relic blades for 20pts

Allow them to take Blood Talons for 50pts

I know I'm a terrible person when it comes to fixing, just tossing out ideas

If you look at points and effectiveness, you have ... (Forgive me, I don't know all the point values off the top of my head.

Tyranid Gaunt, 5-6 points
Imperial Guardsman, 5-6 points? (can't remember)
Orks in here
Eldar Guardian - 8 points
Dark Eldar Warrior - 9-10 points?
Tau Fire Warrior - 10 or 11?
Eldar Dire Avenger - 12 points
Space Marine - 16 points

(Don't know other armies points, like Necrons or Sisters, etc)

To get models with a 4+ armor save for under 10 points seems rare. 7 points is less than a Guardian, which IMO may deserve a points drop of 1 point too, but regardless ... to compare models in terms of their effectiveness and balance, I think the scale makes sense as it is.

Besides, with a Fire Warrior, you're just buying the gun anyways - the Fire Warrior is a free add-on.

a Necron warrior is 13 pts for WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 A1 I2 Ld10 Sv4+.
It has a bolter that automaticly glances any AV on a six
It can stand up from any weapon on a 5+, 4+ w/ resorb, unless the whole unit was destroyed

Immortals are the same stats with 3+ save and better weapons. They also have the option of a weapon that gets 2 free hits with a 6 to hit.

I think a FW should be 8 pts

@ Darkness Eternal.
I posted ...'As the rules set for 40k is not written OBJECTIVLEY for its game play.'
(Emphasis mine.)
Meaning the straight forward game play of 40k , is NOT translated into the the instructions to play the game , in the most elegant , intuitive or efficient way.

This is why the overall ballance of the game suffers and the rule set gets so bloated with add on rules.(USR, Special rules etc.)

Please continue discussing the symptoms of 40k using less than apropriate game mechanics...

Death Company Tycho (Psycho Tycho) - one simple line in his rules stating something like COMPANY OF DEATH, although Death Company Tycho is not an independant character he may join units of Death Company in thier transports, he may still be picked out in shooting and close combat as normal but ignores the normal rules for transports only allowing a single unit to embark upon them.

Librarian Dreadnoughts - err hello, Extra Armour, everyone else gets it.

Mephiston - an invulnerable save? even just a 5+, many would say with his statline that this is un nessesary but it would be nice to have access to one maybe a close combat only one where by he could give up some attacks for a save like he was parrying or something.

Dante - Eternal Warrior, i know a lot of people are against the proliferation of EW through out 40K but the guys a 1000+ y/o chapter master, surely (dont call him surley) he is the very definition of an "Eternal" Warrior.

I realise none of the above things are per say useless, i just think these would be good changes.

Actually he is 1360+. 1000+ for being in command, 350 for time leading up to CM, 10-16 for his age before being a marine.

Dragosanii12 wrote:
Mephiston - an invulnerable save? even just a 5+, many would say with his statline that this is un nessesary but it would be nice to have access to one maybe a close combat only one where by he could give up some attacks for a save like he was parrying or something.

Giving invuln save for Mephiston is fine, if you give him MC base and MC size (as he has MC statline). Or drop him to S5 T5...

Luide wrote:

Dragosanii12 wrote:
Mephiston - an invulnerable save? even just a 5+, many would say with his statline that this is un nessesary but it would be nice to have access to one maybe a close combat only one where by he could give up some attacks for a save like he was parrying or something.

Giving invuln save for Mephiston is fine, if you give him MC base and MC size (as he has MC statline). Or drop him to S5 T5...

I dont think his statline is that much better than Abaddons and he is a similar price and does not have EW and Abbadon has a 4+ invulnerable. Admitedly he is more mobile but only if he gest the power off and he cannot join a unit.

Dante - Eternal Warrior, i know a lot of people are against the proliferation of EW through out 40K but the guys a 1000+ y/o chapter master, surely (dont call him surley) he is the very definition of an "Eternal" Warrior.

The reason Dante isn't an Eternal Warrior is because he's so old he's already used up his extra lives.

For the BA captain, there's a simple fix - give them the same ability that captains in the vanilla codex get. If you stick a vanilla captain on a bike, you can take bike squads as troop choices. It'd even be fluffy for the BA, to boot.

Drop Mephiston to T5, 4 wounds and give him an iron halo (4++). Balanced, but better.

Death Company Tycho should be an upgrade character rather than an HQ choice - and should be able to order the death company around, negating rage for that unit only and making them controllable.

I would trade an ovary for a controllable death company... and I don't even HAVE ovaries.

Give BA Tactical Squads access to heavy flamers, that way they don't have to remain static to fire their heavy weapon (HFlamers are assault, not "heavy").

Elite chaplains for BA should have the same 1-3 per elite slot as sanguinary priests, and litanies should have 6" bubbles across the board (for all marines, not just BA). Very underused units, because they only benefit one squad - compared to FC/FNP bubbles on the priests for half the price!?

Whirlwinds should be able to field squadrons instead of one per heavy support slot. Seems silly that they can't.

Chesh wrote:
I would trade an ovary for a controllable death company... and I don't even HAVE ovaries.

Didnt chaplains used to do this for them? They should. Give a good reason to tack one on

kenshin620 wrote:

Chesh wrote:
I would trade an ovary for a controllable death company... and I don't even HAVE ovaries.

Didnt chaplains used to do this for them? They should. Give a good reason to tack one on

Controllable Death Company=Broken codex.

They are supposed to beserkers (in the viking sense) just wind them up and let them go.

kenshin620 wrote:

Chesh wrote:
I would trade an ovary for a controllable death company... and I don't even HAVE ovaries.

Didnt chaplains used to do this for them? They should. Give a good reason to tack one on

yeah they did back in 2nd anyway, very useful ability, shame really.

I second calls for better BA Captains, more wargear options, on par with standard captains would be nice, they cant even take glaives encarmine, the BA signiture weapon, stupid.

captain collius wrote:
They are supposed to beserkers (in the viking sense) just wind them up and let them go.

First, I think Space Wolves already have some decent Beserkers

2nd, yes lets wind up these poor fellows into chasing around a squad of grots

I mean though it is true, true control would be a powerful asset.

Maybe have a D6 if theres a chaplain present, 1-3 they still have rage, 4-6 you can control them or something along those lines (but maybe they lose there rolls to wound with the chappy when under control)?

Take the DC back to the 4ed rules, but only for Tycho and Lemartes. Then put a limit on squad size that's a bit more realistic - like, 3-10 (including tycho/lemartes)

Then up Tycho and Lemartes' costs by 50 points each (so 225 point Tycho and 200 point Lemartes).

That would keep someone from fielding an all DC army with Astorath, and having it be too terribly broken.

Consider that a 10man DC (9x Death Company plus Lemartes - the cheaper of the two "special upgrade characters) would then cost 380 points buck naked - that's no power weapons/fists, jump packs, transports etc.

That sounds fair to me. That's 20 points less than a full 10man squad of terminators. And still buck nekkid.

CSM's - the entire codex except..erm. no.. wait..oh.. no.. nope, nothing. The entire codex.

I'd write replacement rules for an entire codex but I have more important things to do right now.. (like sit down and watch TV).

evildrspock wrote:To get models with a 4+ armor save for under 10 points seems rare. 7 points is less than a Guardian, which IMO may deserve a points drop of 1 point too, but regardless ... to compare models in terms of their effectiveness and balance, I think the scale makes sense as it is.

Besides, with a Fire Warrior, you're just buying the gun anyways - the Fire Warrior is a free add-on.

I'd say 'spock is pretty close to the money with this assessment of the price of Firewarriors.
With BS4, 10pts is very fair IMHO. Furthermore, I really don't think they should be BS4.

The best way to fix Firewarriors IMHO is to increase the Rapid Fire range of Pulse Rifles to 15", keep their statline the same (and not BS4) and reduce the cost to 8pts, possibly 9.
That's without changing the rest of the Tau Codex as is obviously needed.

Just Dave wrote:
The best way to fix Firewarriors IMHO is to increase the Rapid Fire range of Pulse Rifles to 15", keep their statline the same (and not BS4) and reduce the cost to 8pts, possibly 9.

What is this obsession with the 15" RF range? I mean, that's why Pulse Carbines are in the 'dex (and yes, they should be Assault 2).


Techpriest Engineseer:
- Rename it to Combat Engineseer - just for the coolness factor
- Give him a Refractor Field
- Give him Bolster Defences
- Give him an IC status
- Option for combi-weapons
- Allow the poor fella to take a Chimera as a dedicated transport

AtoMaki wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
The best way to fix Firewarriors IMHO is to increase the Rapid Fire range of Pulse Rifles to 15", keep their statline the same (and not BS4) and reduce the cost to 8pts, possibly 9.

What is this obsession with the 15" RF range? I mean, that's why Pulse Carbines are in the 'dex (and yes, they should be Assault 2).

The 15" Rapid Fire range allows them to make full use of their superior ranged weaponry and ability, without really having to expose themselves to close combat, where they are one of the worst units in the game.
By the time they've rapid fired, they're within assault range, and if rapid-firing a unit of astartes, the astartes will probably survive and then charge and murderise the Tau.

As for Pulse Carbines, personally, my solution for these would be to make them Assault 1. BUT, make greater use of the grenade-launcher function.

Those are my ideas for what would be, IMHO, an effective way to improve Tau Firewarriors, but this isn't the thread for it...

Just Dave wrote:
The 15" Rapid Fire range allows them to make full use of their superior ranged weaponry and ability, without really having to expose themselves to close combat, where they are one of the worst units in the game.
By the time they've rapid fired, they're within assault range, and if rapid-firing a unit of astartes, the astartes will probably survive and then charge and murderise the Tau.

Well, the Pulse Carbine has a range of 18", so the 3" boost on the Pulse Rifle's RF range still makes very little sense. Pulse rifles should have a superior long-range capability, like Heavy 2/Rapid Fire as weapon type.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

Veterans also have R24" S3 AP- gun and a 5+ save vs a R30" S5 AP5 gun and 4+ armor.

Fire Warriors are not even close to worse.

DarknessEternal wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

Veterans also have R24" S3 AP- gun and a 5+ save vs a R30" S5 AP5 gun and 4+ armor.

Fire Warriors are not even close to worse.

Yeah, you have a point there. Hold on, don't vets have the ability to take 4+ saves?

But Vets can take plasmaguns & meltas. Can FWs?

No, but these extra weapons is A) What makes Veterans viable, and B) the price is not incorporated into their base points-cost.

how many points is a meltavet?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

Veterans also have R24" S3 AP- gun and a 5+ save vs a R30" S5 AP5 gun and 4+ armor.

Fire Warriors are not even close to worse.

Yeah, you have a point there. Hold on, don't vets have the ability to take 4+ saves?

For 3pts each guy yes

Psst, no one takes those upgrades btw

IHateNids wrote:how many points is a meltavet?

17 (7+10). 20 (7+10+3) with a 4+ armour save.

17.

The total cost per vet with maximum meltas and rocket launchers is 115, or 120 with a lascannon - 12ppm. With just meltas, 10ppm.

right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

IHateNids wrote:right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

Yeah, but if you're playing Tau, and NOT taking Battlesuits of some variety you're doing it wrong. Hell, just give them the BS increase. And keep them at 10. I know my buddies optional vets are a hell of a lot more useful then my mandatory fire warriors.

Why isn't Fish of Fury viable anymore? Or is it just that transports made it necessary to load up on crisis suits in addition to broadsides?

Uh. EMPs are 3ppm, and are NOT meltabombs. They're 4-5 glance 6 pen. To use them, you have to get a unit that relies on shooting into assault range without firing them. Then you have to assault. With WS2 T3 I2. Meaning you are not going to do ANYTHING against walkers. Meaning you haven't fired.

13ppm for a poor model with a decent gun (strike squads get S5 AP5 assault 2 24") that can sometimes, en-masse, bog down a weak vehicle long enough to kill it...?

@Chesh - FoF isnt viable because TLoS and Assault rules mean that they aren't 'invincible' behind their devilfish anymore, and they give cover to things that, before, didnt have any. That, and yes, they have no way to pop transports first in many cases.

Guardians. 80 points.
Squad size: 9 Guardians and 1 Black Guardian (aspect warrior profile +1A, Guardian armour)
* Each Guardian must be armed with one of the following: Close combat weapon and shuriken pistol, Shuriken Catapult or lasblaster.
* Up to three Guardians may replace their weapons with one from the list: power weapon and shuriken pistol, flamer, melta gun or long rifle.
* The Black Guardian is armed with a close combat weapon and a shuriken pistol and may replace either or both with weapons from the following list: shuriken catapult (+0 points), power weapon (+6 points), fusion pistol (+10 points), shuriken cannon (+10 points)
* The squad may be accompanied by a heavy weapons platform (10 to 30 points), may select a plasma shield (+15 points) or a webway portal (+35 points)
* The squad may be armed with plasma and fusion grenades for +10 points amd may be transported by a Wave Serpent for +80 points.

Plasma Shield - (one use) a device which is placed by a model in the unit and deploys in base contact with the model deoploying it. It is a 5" wide 3" high barrier which provides 4+ cover for any eldar unit it obscures.

1. The Warlock is intended to be a separate FOC, purchased much like a librarian is. This also makes the Eldar army more psycher-intensive without having to go bananas on the psychic power strength of the Farseer.
2. The Black Guardian is a proper sergeant and provides higher leadership.
3. The basic Guardian is still grossly overpriced, but you intentionally get roughly 6 points of free upgrades for every three guardians! Yes, that is intentionally free.
4. Yes, Wave Serpents are too costly for this edition's pricing.

This effectively makes the Guardian the most dynamic unit, although keeping true to the Eldar theme they still will be good for roughly one thing at a time, and it also makes them the army's workhorse in deploying cover and reinforcement gateways

---

Rangers.
Well, since I just gave Guardians sniper rifles, the role of low-proficiency snipers is potentially filled. Rangers get to be upgraded with Pathfinder ability as standard.

Just for gaks and giggles, what if they could purchase Webway Portals?

Edit.
Chrisrawr: grenades on walkers are 6+ to hit regardless of weapon skill, so that's the one sole place where the Tau aren't any more terrible than an orc in melee

chrisrawr wrote:@Chesh - FoF isnt viable because TLoS and Assault rules mean that they aren't 'invincible' behind their devilfish anymore, and they give cover to things that, before, didnt have any. That, and yes, they have no way to pop transports first in many cases.

Ah, yeah. For some odd reason, I thought devilfish got the option to take a second move during the assault phase.

If that were the case, would that + landing gears make it a viable tactic again? Taking a shas'ui with a markerlight and a couple of seeker missiles on the devilfish would give them some transport popping capability.

Pop the devilfish over the back of the gun line, shoot, then move it back and land it in front of them again to block LOS and make it harder to charge - at least until the 'fish got wrecked, anyway.

Markerlight is heavy and cannot be fired. The fish can't move in the assault phase, so your tactic still doesn't work, and the landing gear only works in the movement phase. Literally the only thing going for FoF was the fact that it let you shoot at the enemy without being shot back at or assaulted. Targeting priority was such a terrible idea.

@Mathamori - Still worse, no fleet! Rangers/Pathfinders have always, always needed a boost, imho.

I always love coming to these threads and reading all the comparisons of FW to IG. If FW were comparable to the IG Vets then we wouldn't be seeing a 6 man mandatory squad hiding in a devilfish in reserves in most lists.

Maybe giving the Devilfish firepoints or some weapons that the units can use from inside to supplement their firepower would be a better fix than the BS issue. People will argue about that unti the 40K storyline advances or the Sun collapses in on itself, whichever comes first.

Smart money is on the Sun, methinks.

Mahtamori wrote:Guardians. 80 points.
Squad size: 9 Guardians and 1 Black Guardian (aspect warrior profile +1A, Guardian armour)
* Each Guardian must be armed with one of the following: Close combat weapon and shuriken pistol, Shuriken Catapult or lasblaster.
* Up to three Guardians may replace their weapons with one from the list: power weapon and shuriken pistol, flamer, melta gun or long rifle.
* The Black Guardian is armed with a close combat weapon and a shuriken pistol and may replace either or both with weapons from the following list: shuriken catapult (+0 points), power weapon (+6 points), fusion pistol (+10 points), shuriken cannon (+10 points)
* The squad may be accompanied by a heavy weapons platform (10 to 30 points), may select a plasma shield (+15 points) or a webway portal (+35 points)
* The squad may be armed with plasma and fusion grenades for +10 points amd may be transported by a Wave Serpent for +80 points.

Plasma Shield - (one use) a device which is placed by a model in the unit and deploys in base contact with the model deoploying it. It is a 5" wide 3" high barrier which provides 4+ cover for any eldar unit it obscures.

1. The Warlock is intended to be a separate FOC, purchased much like a librarian is. This also makes the Eldar army more psycher-intensive without having to go bananas on the psychic power strength of the Farseer.
2. The Black Guardian is a proper sergeant and provides higher leadership.
3. The basic Guardian is still grossly overpriced, but you intentionally get roughly 6 points of free upgrades for every three guardians! Yes, that is intentionally free.
4. Yes, Wave Serpents are too costly for this edition's pricing.

This effectively makes the Guardian the most dynamic unit, although keeping true to the Eldar theme they still will be good for roughly one thing at a time, and it also makes them the army's workhorse in deploying cover and reinforcement gateways

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Rangers.
Well, since I just gave Guardians sniper rifles, the role of low-proficiency snipers is potentially filled. Rangers get to be upgraded with Pathfinder ability as standard.

Just for gaks and giggles, what if they could purchase Webway Portals?

Edit.
Chrisrawr: grenades on walkers are 6+ to hit regardless of weapon skill, so that's the one sole place where the Tau aren't any more terrible than an orc in melee

I like the idea of having one Guardian with more skills and putting it all together, but the mix and match feel suggests the Guardians have a more tactical, well rounded training, which they really don't; they're Eldar civilians thrown into battle. 3 special weapons AND a heavy weapon platform is a lot; with this ruleset, everyone would take 6 squads with 3 Fusion guns, a Fusion pistol and a Starcannon in Waveserpents, and destroy meq armies for cheap. Hello Ap 1 & 2!

If the Black guardian exists, he should be an upgrade character, not standard. Though I would say that Defensive Grenades for Guardian Defenders and Assault Grenades for Storm Guardians would be a nice 1ppm upgrade.

Good ideas, but I think the temptation with dreaming up new rulesets is far to easy too overpower the new rules.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

The hell? 7-8 points for BS 4 fire warriors? You get Str 5 AP 5 standard weapons, 4+ armour saves, and marker lights. Besides if you get into close combat you are screwed no matter what your initiative is, you are Tau. Also, why should you get BS 4? Most units that get BS 4 are Space Marines who have fought for decades at least, Eldar who have trained in a tiny aspect of war their entire lives, or IG veterans who have fought for years against the toughest enemies in the galaxy.

I do miss 5 man Guardian squads. It certainly fits with the idea of a "dying race."

TheMind wrote:

IHateNids wrote:right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

Yeah, but if you're playing Tau, and NOT taking Battlesuits of some variety you're doing it wrong. Hell, just give them the BS increase. And keep them at 10. I know my buddies optional vets are a hell of a lot more useful then my mandatory fire warriors.

The codex states that they 'strike like meltabombs', but the book is so old, 4-5 glance and 6 pen could be old meltabombs

evildrspock wrote:I like the idea of having one Guardian with more skills and putting it all together, but the mix and match feel suggests the Guardians have a more tactical, well rounded training, which they really don't; they're Eldar civilians thrown into battle. 3 special weapons AND a heavy weapon platform is a lot; with this ruleset, everyone would take 6 squads with 3 Fusion guns, a Fusion pistol and a Starcannon in Waveserpents, and destroy meq armies for cheap. Hello Ap 1 & 2!

If the Black guardian exists, he should be an upgrade character, not standard. Though I would say that Defensive Grenades for Guardian Defenders and Assault Grenades for Storm Guardians would be a nice 1ppm upgrade.

Good ideas, but I think the temptation with dreaming up new rulesets is far to easy too overpower the new rules.

I have never seen anyone suggest taking fusion guns for their Storm Guardians since the magic recipe to make them good is dual flamer + destlock. You've got to remember that while a fusion gun is certainly good, you're still paying a premium for it, even if it is pre-paid, and that it's still got to hit. The likelihood of having a Farseer with them on a mission like that is relatively low, so we're looking at three models amounting to an average of 1 killed marine per round - that's an estimate of 36 points shooting down between 14 and 30 points per round that they are within 12". Not a good power-to-cost ratio considering that they will most likely fail to do anything to even a small number of marines in melee.
As for the Black Guardian, the fusion gun is range 6" and exist as a strong, if costly, last ditch to pop a transport before assaulting GEQ inside. It's actually horribly overpriced at 10 points in my opinion, but that's what it costs at BS4 in all places I have seen it (though I haven't read most non-Eldar codices)

Here's the thing with Eldar, though, they are completely opposite of all other armies. Got a very expensive vehicle that needs piloting? Stick militia in it. Got a really esoteric piece of artillery? Man it with militia. Need special equipment towed around the battlefield? Give it to the militia. Need man power for the front line to hack at the enemy in melee? Send in the elites. Got a really specialized mission for which only certain equipment is suitable? There's an elite squad who can do nothing else.
This is how it is in the codex at the moment. Sticking more weapon options on the militia, arguably some of the weaker and more mass-producible ones at that, as well as giving them a bit more special weapons to pick and choose from is not deviating from the current Eldar design - though it is deviating from the design of every other codex out there! The Craftworlders are weird like that and they've got strange priorities. I'd also like to point out that the special weapons they can choose from 1-in-3 are the sort of weapons you'd expect Aspect Warriors to use 3-in-3. Except the Swooping Hawks, they are uselesserest.

P.s. a flamer on a squad of marines need to hit three marines in order to be as effective as a melta gun. Typically a flamer will hit 5 or more. Also, the Star Cannon is still useless, I just made the assumption it's closer to it's performance in cost (10 points maybe 15)

IHateNids wrote:

TheMind wrote:

IHateNids wrote:right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

Yeah, but if you're playing Tau, and NOT taking Battlesuits of some variety you're doing it wrong. Hell, just give them the BS increase. And keep them at 10. I know my buddies optional vets are a hell of a lot more useful then my mandatory fire warriors.

The codex states that they 'strike like meltabombs', but the book is so old, 4-5 glance and 6 pen could be old meltabombs

"...hitting in the same way as grenades and meltabombs..."

Your compare-ese needs some work!

TheMind wrote:

IHateNids wrote:right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

Yeah, but if you're playing Tau, and NOT taking Battlesuits of some variety you're doing it wrong. Hell, just give them the BS increase. And keep them at 10. I know my buddies optional vets are a hell of a lot more useful then my mandatory fire warriors.

Did you ever try shooting at his infantry with fire warriors. The only thing Vets have going for them really are 3 SWs and firing ports on Chimeras, if you want to nerf guard take away one or the other. With your pulse weapons you automatically penetrate his armour (unless he takes carapace) and wound on a 2+. Also BS 4 only goes to soldiers who are extreme veterans, a generic Cadian has been training since their birth and still only gets BS 3.

Edit: If one wants BS 4 fire warriors take them as a limited troop choice, like a 0-3 troop choice with BS 4 like a Tau equivalent to IG vets.

Never mind...

It's useless, let's improve it.

Swooping Hawks.
Price: 12 points per model. (Same as Dire Avengers)
Skyleap: provides Turbo-boost instead.

Alternative.
Price: 14 points.
Jet Infantry.
Skyleap: provides turbo-boost.

Maht', I'd say a price decrease isn't what is really needed to make Swooping Hawks work, nor is 12pts arguably a fair price for any jump-infantry unit.

Dragosanii12 wrote:Death Company Tycho (Psycho Tycho) - one simple line in his rules stating something like COMPANY OF DEATH, although Death Company Tycho is not an independant character he may join units of Death Company in thier transports, he may still be picked out in shooting and close combat as normal but ignores the normal rules for transports only allowing a single unit to embark upon them.
Librarian Dreadnoughts - err hello, Extra Armour, everyone else gets it.
Mephiston - an invulnerable save? even just a 5+, many would say with his statline that this is un nessesary but it would be nice to have access to one maybe a close combat only one where by he could give up some attacks for a save like he was parrying or something.
Dante - Eternal Warrior, i know a lot of people are against the proliferation of EW through out 40K but the guys a 1000+ y/o chapter master, surely (dont call him surley) he is the very definition of an "Eternal" Warrior.
I realise none of the above things are per say useless, i just think these would be good changes.

The title of this thread is "It's useless, lets make it better" none of those BA choices are useless, they are all very competitive and show up a lot. They do not need to be made any better.

secondly, 1000 or even 1500 years old seems rather young to me. Vect and a good number of DE are over 10,000 years old and remember the fall intimately. Some are older than the Emperor. Ditto with some of the craftworld Eldar. Yet only the phoniex lords have eternal warrior as if they take a lascannon to the face they bite it. The phoneix lords on the other hand have in their fluff instances of being killed, reduced to molten ruin, psykicly annaliated or what not and then coming back.

blood angels glaive encarmines (or what ever they are) should get a strengh bonus even if it is +1 i would seriously think about playing sanguinary guard, but idealy they should be like SM relic blades and give +2 strengh and no bonus attack for charging.

this is one thing that constsntly gets on my nerves

Well, 12 points is knee-jerk, but sometimes better isn't necessarily making a stronger unit, it might be simply pricing it according to it's performance as well.

It should be noted that I can only think of, off the top of my head, a single jump infantry unit which is priced similarly low and that are Stormboyz, which are essentially an Ork Boy with a jump pack that's (mostly) better than other races' jump packs and with special melee weapons which are... 1/3 along the way towards a power weapon.
Not a lot to compare to, but the lasblaster is an extremely low-powered weapon. Essentially the cost I derivated from taking a Dire Avenger and using this logic:
1. A Dire Avenger's clearly not worth 12 points, closer to 11, unless you're using Blade Storm.
2. A lasblaster has +6" range, but that's significantly less powerful than +1S.
3. Their deep strike is hard-countered by frag missiles, but it is a benefit if you take the greanade pack into account.
4. Riiight... I forgot about movement range completely. how utterly silly.

14 points is more appropriate, but I don't feel they are worth much more. This is, however, addressing the model without taking the rest of the codex into account.
In order to make the unit function the way it is currently designed, I say a significant price drop and an alteration to Skyleap. In order to actually make the unit fit in to the vaunted Eldar "there's an aspect warrior for each situation", their entire role needs to change.
However, since the codex itself isn't useless I felt that outside the debate

P.S. (P.P.S. not really relevant) It is my opinion, in general, that infantry models are priced generally too high and transport capacity generally too low. It is not my opinion that Wave Serpents are too costly, which they are if you compare them to other factions' transports, but rather that most transports are too cheap.

I'm getting so sick of tau players quequeing about firewarriors.

Fix the rest of the codex and bring firewarriors to 10 points, but otherwise leave them as-is. The problem isn't the firewarriors, the problem is the tau codex.

The only thing more risible is the idea that there is absolutely nothing salvageable about the CSM codex...

I agree with the swooping hawks, though. Take away their stupid yo-yo ability and make them a worthwhile unit in their own right. Like make them regular guardians, but with jump packs, deepstrike and an assault 3 (12") S3 Ap5 weapon for 15 points with the option to take a couple of eldar melta guns. Then you'd have a unit that would actually be similar to their analogues in other armies.

Not Guiardians. Swooping Hawks shoud be unique completely. They are aspect warriors.

Simply reducing the cost of Swooping Hawks doesn't make them necessarily usable, a good unit or fitting with fluff. Even at 12pts each I'd have a hard time justifying using Swooping Hawks. They could be what then? Suicide Haywire delivery, or weak anti-infantry? Do either of these fit with the Eldar concept of each unit having a use and value, particularly aspect warriors?
Should they even be made to fit a role of special weapon delivery like other codices? Like a suicide melta unit? Personally, I don't think so.

For example - and I'm not saying its a perfect solution, but myself I think it is a solution - in my Fandex they gain AP3 weapons, retain the use of their grenade packs, have improved hit-and-run abilities and are cheaper. To me, this gives them several roles, as a fragile yet pretty dangerous anti-infantry unit, that can strike anywhere and or, go back into reserves reliably to hit and run, or charge tanks with their haywire grenades, or if they don't use deep strike, they can't use their grenades, but can JSJ out of rapid fire response range, all the while threatening MeQ also.

Personally, for me, giving them viable uses and tactics is preferable to simply reducing their cost.

Now we're straying a bit, but.

The problem with whole concept of being a grenade delivery unit is that they have defence versus neither the explosion they could cause nor the infantry which are likely to move out of the vehicle. The whole concept of flying in to attach the rather mediocre Haywire grenades is laughable and also a very good target to fix in order to improve the unit.

This essentially leaves the use of their guns, or possibly giving them some sort of fly-by attack that we've seen on Dark Eldar jetbikes.
While AP3 certainly fills a unique niche, I don't particularly see how this is a foolproof way of going about it to give this particular unit a better fit to the fluff. Of course it is a good solution, but I am saying it's far from the best or most obvious. Which is also why I gave the alternative, which is simply to make them Jet Infantry (which I also think suits their wings better).

Another alternative which I know I've suggested in one or another Eldar discussion thread is to simply give them Haywire Launchers. This makes them threatening to any MEQ or lighter infantry with a high model cost as well as to vehicles, but makes them far more specialized in that they aren't a threat to TEQ, inexpensive MEQ, GEQ nor MCs.

Regardless, bottom line is, stuff don't need to be more powerful, sometimes cheaper is better. In the special case of the Eldar there's the added line "as long as it's not too cheap" and I think Dire Avengers sets the limit at bottom for Aspect Warriors.

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Today I had a lesson in how Rippers aren't useless, btw.

Ailaros wrote:I'm getting so sick of tau players quequeing about firewarriors.

Fix the rest of the codex and bring firewarriors to 10 points, but otherwise leave them as-is. The problem isn't the firewarriors, the problem is the tau codex.

The only thing more risible is the idea that there is absolutely nothing salvageable about the CSM codex...

I agree with the swooping hawks, though. Take away their stupid yo-yo ability and make them a worthwhile unit in their own right. Like make them regular guardians, but with jump packs, deepstrike and an assault 3 (12") S3 Ap5 weapon for 15 points with the option to take a couple of eldar melta guns. Then you'd have a unit that would actually be similar to their analogues in other armies.

FW are already 10ppm. A fine cost if MarkerLights come down. If instead of Vets (which IMO is still a fair comparison, for the same cost of a full squad of FW and Vets the vets have BS4 and termie killing, veh popping weapons, but moving on) we compare to Kabalite warriors. 9ppm. BS4, WS4, I5. 5+sv, sure. I call the difference between a splinter rifle and a pulse rifle conditional and in that regard an equal weapon (in terms of usefulness across the game.) The PR is S5, which is great against T4 or less enemies. Amazing, really. The SR comes into its own at T6 or greater, but only when compared against the PR (as opposed to a bolter.) Oh yeah, and the Kabalite also has PFP, which the firewarrior will never get. And you REALLY think that BS4 on that model for 10 points is too much?

I disagree with BS4 for other reasons (primarily the erosion of the statline and the obselesance of Markerlights if BS is standard.) I'd rather see Bonding Knives and Shas'ui standard in a squad (included in the cost) and a +1 BS for each rank. Shasla = BS3, Shasui = BS4, Shasvre = BS5, Etc. Alternatively, I'd add the 4E IG "Sharpshooters" doctrine. Any time the Tau fires without the aid of a markerlight, they get to reroll failed to hit rolls of a one. This provides a marginal increase to BS without the added cost or stat erosion.

Cheapening Markerlights, improving Pathfinders, lowering the cost of Fish, or improving Fish mounted weapons are all better ways to improve the Tau army, IMO.

True, sometimes a point decrease is preferable to a skill boost, but IMHO a unit must remain usable even with a point decrease and considering how little damage they do, I don't think a point decrease is enough for hawks. Even when freakin' cheap, they are still worth a KP, use a FoC and are still unlikely to kill anything. Particularly with the Eldar and aspect warrior way of war, I think this is baaaad.

Whilst Haywire launchers do give them a very viable use as fast anti tank, it may make them too niche and goes against the fluff.

Personally, with my proposed changes, they don't contradict fluff (las weapons can be low AP) and they can JSJ like jet infantry providing they don't deepstrike, in which case (not deepstriking) they cannot use their grenade packs or strike anywhere, but they can reduce chances of getting counter-attacked, exchanging hitting power for safety. IMHO this gives them a variety of tactical uses whilst remaining true-to-fluff.

But that's all I really have to say on the matter. I've expressed my opinion and why I think there are much better ways to change 'hawks and make them viable units, and I don't think either a simple points reduction or use as suicide special weaponry delivery is what's needed and I'll leave it there.

Ailaros wrote:I'm getting so sick of tau players quequeing about firewarriors.

Fix the rest of the codex and bring firewarriors to 10 points, but otherwise leave them as-is. The problem isn't the firewarriors, the problem is the tau codex.

The only thing more risible is the idea that there is absolutely nothing salvageable about the CSM codex...

I agree with the swooping hawks, though. Take away their stupid yo-yo ability and make them a worthwhile unit in their own right. Like make them regular guardians, but with jump packs, deepstrike and an assault 3 (12") S3 Ap5 weapon for 15 points with the option to take a couple of eldar melta guns. Then you'd have a unit that would actually be similar to their analogues in other armies.

I agree, they're actually a surprisingly good compared to a lot of troop chaoices (30 inches wtf).

Yeah. Remember playing against all those Firewarrior gunlines? How those completely dominate the current environment. How every Tau player brings as many 12 man squads as possible. How they never leave them hiding in transports. How everybody complains about how hard it is to kill a T3 model with a 4+ save.

Yeah. Seriously I wish people would stop singing praises of a troop choice that nobody wants to bring. I really wish the PR didn't get an additional 6" range compared to the standard. In the mech heavy games I really never see that even being remotely useful.

It's not like Tau get all the sticks..

Savageconvoy wrote:Yeah. Remember playing against all those Firewarrior gunlines? How those completely dominate the current environment. How every Tau player brings as many 12 man squads as possible. How they never leave them hiding in transports. How everybody complains about how hard it is to kill a T3 model with a 4+ save.

Yeah. Remember playing against all those Eldar Guardians gunlines? How those completely dominate the current environment. How every Eldar player brings as many 20 man squads as possible. How they never leave them hiding in transports. (exception here because people won't even bother paying for a transport, they will die anyway) How everybody complains about how hard it is to kill a T3 model with a 5+ save. And that can't actually do anything because their guns are gak, and if they fire them it means they are dead.

Yeah. Remember playing against all those Shoota Boyz gunlines? How those completely dominate the current environment. How every Ork player brings as many 30 man squads as possible. How they never leave them hiding in transports. (exception here because people won't even bother paying for a transport, they will die anyway) How everybody complains about how hard it is to kill a T4 model with a 6+ save.And that they have Nobz with Powa Klawz to deal with anything stupid enough to get into CC?

OhwaitIloveorkslol.

I didn't say Eldar didn't have a bad deal either. I'm mostly bothered by the argument that Tau Firewarriors should be compared to IG when deciding stats and point values.

And honestly I know nothing about Eldar. At my FLGS there is one Eldar player that never gets to play much and one other Tau player besides myself. Though the other Tau player has either never read the rulebook or just plain cheats.

Buttons wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

The hell? 7-8 points for BS 4 fire warriors? You get Str 5 AP 5 standard weapons, 4+ armour saves, and marker lights. Besides if you get into close combat you are screwed no matter what your initiative is, you are Tau. Also, why should you get BS 4? Most units that get BS 4 are Space Marines who have fought for decades at least, Eldar who have trained in a tiny aspect of war their entire lives, or IG veterans who have fought for years against the toughest enemies in the galaxy.

Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills. So assuming that an Imperial Guardsman trains for the same length of time as a Fire Warrior you would expect a Fire Warrior to be better at shooting as he'd spent more of that time down at the firing range.

If Fire Warriors stay at BS3 they need a points drop. Crisis, Stealth and Broadsides should be BS4 standard as these guys have been fighting for years to advance in rank and are in a suit bristling with technology which you'd expect to help them aim a bit better than an unsuited Fire Warrior.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills.

Yes, and it gets them all the way to 3.

It's like no one else reads the parts of the codex where it points out how physically and dextrously inferior Tau are to humans.

Nagashek wrote:

we compare to Kabalite warriors. 9ppm. BS4, WS4, I5. 5+sv, sure. I call the difference between a splinter rifle and a pulse rifle conditional and in that regard an equal weapon (in terms of usefulness across the game.) The PR is S5, which is great against T4 or less enemies. Amazing, really. The SR comes into its own at T6 or greater, but only when compared against the PR (as opposed to a bolter.) Oh yeah, and the Kabalite also has PFP, which the firewarrior will never get. And you REALLY think that BS4 on that model for 10 points is too much?

Most things in the game are T4 or less. SR cannot hurt vehicles and are only 24" range. I would say the SR is equal to a bolter now. Just as good at T4 which is the most common, worse at T3, better at T5+ and worse against vehicles.

A 4+ save is also signifigantly better than 5+. For IG and Orks, a 4+ save costs 4pts. For DE it costs 10points, although it comes with a 6++ too.

DarknessEternal wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills.

Yes, and it gets them all the way to 3.

It's like no one else reads the parts of the codex where it points out how physically and dextrously inferior Tau are to humans.

And which parts of the Codex are these? I just looked through and couldn't find any mention of it in either the current codex or the previous one. So unless you have a page number for that claim...

A Town Called Malus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills.

Yes, and it gets them all the way to 3.

It's like no one else reads the parts of the codex where it points out how physically and dextrously inferior Tau are to humans.

And which parts of the Codex are these? I just looked through and couldn't find any mention of it in either the current codex or the previous one. So unless you have a page number for that claim...

Tau ten to be slower and weaker to humans, Firewarriors are bigger and stronger than most Tau but still shorter and weaker than most humans. Also, a weekend of bayonet drills doesn't impact that heavily upon marksmanship training.

IIRC The Mechanicum report describes their weaker eyesight also.

Buttons wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills.

Yes, and it gets them all the way to 3.

It's like no one else reads the parts of the codex where it points out how physically and dextrously inferior Tau are to humans.

And which parts of the Codex are these? I just looked through and couldn't find any mention of it in either the current codex or the previous one. So unless you have a page number for that claim...

Tau ten to be slower and weaker to humans, Firewarriors are bigger and stronger than most Tau but still shorter and weaker than most humans. Also, a weekend of bayonet drills doesn't impact that heavily upon marksmanship training.

Slower, maybe but not weaker. They have the same base strength value as a guardsman so the rules don't support that they're inherently weaker. As for being slower, reflexes can be improved through training. Farsight is Initiative 5, so it's possible that Tau could be just as quick as a human if they trained in the right way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:IIRC The Mechanicum report describes their weaker eyesight also.

Their eyesight takes longer to focus on distant objects but can see into the UV and IR range of the spectrum.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slower, maybe but not weaker. They have the same base strength value as a guardsman so the rules don't support that they're inherently weaker. As for being slower, reflexes can be improved through training. Farsight is Initiative 5, so it's possible that Tau could be just as quick as a human if they trained in the right way.

In the Deathwatch RPG rulebook, the (Fire Caste) Tau is described as physically equal to humans and its stats are roughly the same as a low-mid human's.

In-game statistics don't always accurately represent their true character; its an inherent flaw in the max-stat-10/D6 system. E.g. the way a Defiler is only as good as a Guardsman in close combat, Space Marine Scouts are as accurate as Grots etc.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Farsight is Initiative 5, so it's possible that Tau could be just as quick as a human if they trained in the right way.

Farsight carries a daemon weapon that's doubled his lifespan.

DarknessEternal wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Farsight is Initiative 5, so it's possible that Tau could be just as quick as a human if they trained in the right way.

Farsight carries a daemon weapon that's doubled his lifespan.

Supposedly. No evidence that it's a daemon weapon and we don't know whether it is still the same Farsight or whether the leaders of the Farsight enclaves are just using his name in honour of him. Stylistically it looks more like a Necron weapon than a Chaos weapon, in my opinion.

Mahtamori wrote:

evildrspock wrote:I like the idea of having one Guardian with more skills and putting it all together, but the mix and match feel suggests the Guardians have a more tactical, well rounded training, which they really don't; they're Eldar civilians thrown into battle. 3 special weapons AND a heavy weapon platform is a lot; with this ruleset, everyone would take 6 squads with 3 Fusion guns, a Fusion pistol and a Starcannon in Waveserpents, and destroy meq armies for cheap. Hello Ap 1 & 2!

If the Black guardian exists, he should be an upgrade character, not standard. Though I would say that Defensive Grenades for Guardian Defenders and Assault Grenades for Storm Guardians would be a nice 1ppm upgrade.

Good ideas, but I think the temptation with dreaming up new rulesets is far to easy too overpower the new rules.

I have never seen anyone suggest taking fusion guns for their Storm Guardians since the magic recipe to make them good is dual flamer + destlock. You've got to remember that while a fusion gun is certainly good, you're still paying a premium for it, even if it is pre-paid, and that it's still got to hit. The likelihood of having a Farseer with them on a mission like that is relatively low, so we're looking at three models amounting to an average of 1 killed marine per round - that's an estimate of 36 points shooting down between 14 and 30 points per round that they are within 12". Not a good power-to-cost ratio considering that they will most likely fail to do anything to even a small number of marines in melee.
As for the Black Guardian, the fusion gun is range 6" and exist as a strong, if costly, last ditch to pop a transport before assaulting GEQ inside. It's actually horribly overpriced at 10 points in my opinion, but that's what it costs at BS4 in all places I have seen it (though I haven't read most non-Eldar codices)

Here's the thing with Eldar, though, they are completely opposite of all other armies. Got a very expensive vehicle that needs piloting? Stick militia in it. Got a really esoteric piece of artillery? Man it with militia. Need special equipment towed around the battlefield? Give it to the militia. Need man power for the front line to hack at the enemy in melee? Send in the elites. Got a really specialized mission for which only certain equipment is suitable? There's an elite squad who can do nothing else.
This is how it is in the codex at the moment. Sticking more weapon options on the militia, arguably some of the weaker and more mass-producible ones at that, as well as giving them a bit more special weapons to pick and choose from is not deviating from the current Eldar design - though it is deviating from the design of every other codex out there! The Craftworlders are weird like that and they've got strange priorities. I'd also like to point out that the special weapons they can choose from 1-in-3 are the sort of weapons you'd expect Aspect Warriors to use 3-in-3. Except the Swooping Hawks, they are uselesserest.

P.s. a flamer on a squad of marines need to hit three marines in order to be as effective as a melta gun. Typically a flamer will hit 5 or more. Also, the Star Cannon is still useless, I just made the assumption it's closer to it's performance in cost (10 points maybe 15)

Yeah, with Eldar it does make sense that with their lower numbers, they minimize their options by putting the highly skilled elite forces forward where they'll actually engage the enemy, while the civilian militia are put in the less likely to die roll (safely encased in a Grav-Tank, or in Support Weapon roles). I understand why it's there, but I hate the lack of a BS upgrade on Falcons, Vipers, etc.

It is true you're getting a lot more reliability per upgrade with Flamers on Guardians - lack of rolling to hit being the primary function - and unloading out of a transport and hitting enemies in cover makes that ever so much better. The point about getting 4 ap1 and 2 ap2 in one squad is the amount of killiness for meq/3+/2+ save dominated environment we are in. The ability to threaten anything on the board with each troop choice is good, & I'd totally take 2 or 3 squads like that to power up to paladin units, terminators, and lay down the hate. No FNP/2 wounds for you! Rolling to hit is another thing here ...


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As for Swooping Hawks, I feel everyone's pain on them. They feel like a "fun" unit to use, but are too expensive to just throw in a list for a fun haywire unit. Swooping Hawks need one or 2 more abilities that cause your opponent's plans to go haywire.

Their Lasblasters should have the "Haywire" Special Rule, like their grenades (or perhaps in place of the grenades) - always glance vehicles on a 2-5, penning on a 6? For a 10 man squad, an average of 6 Glancing hits and one Pinning per turn seems fair for their points cost and general fragility. More weapons need a "Poison" effect vs vehicles, anyways.

EDIT: alternatively, this could just be an exarch power, or maybe an upgrade for the Exarch's Sunrifle/Hawk's Talon?
Also, my average math was off - a squad of 10 regular Swooping hawks would average say 13 hits? That's 9-10 Glancings and 2 Pinnings per found of fire ... Yeah, probably only fair if he exarch's guns have this.

evildrspock wrote:
Yeah, with Eldar it does make sense that with their lower numbers, they minimize their options by putting the highly skilled elite forces forward where they'll actually engage the enemy, while the civilian militia are put in the less likely to die roll (safely encased in a Grav-Tank, or in Support Weapon roles).

Except for Scorpions, those "highly skilled elite forces" can't get into forward positions without the militia pilots.