I play infantry guard a ton.
The terrain thing doesnt matter too much as for the most part you arent running guard as an assault army speed isnt too much of an issue.
Striking scorps, zerks, ect. Being able to win in cc is moot as well, its unlikely you will see an army super heavy in any of these anti blob models and the ones you do see can generally be focused down.
I use al harims outflanking melta circus to overwhelm a flank and valks or creed to reach the other, usually mobility is a non issue.
Against some models, yeah you may get cut down 2 or 3 to 1, but throw enough lasguns at it, and you dont have to worry. Very few things can take 100 plus lasguns and a dozen or more melta/las/autocannon

Out of interest, you ever played against a universal FNP army?

I played against a ba fnp army, was close but lost that one, i can def see nurgle being an issue but if i can tie them up the msu portion of the army should be able to mass contest.

Joey wrote:
D'oh. Guess you showed me! Those none deep-striking T3 models really loosen my bowels...

Until they swoop by on a Wave Serpent (remember, we're in your fantasy land where the unit arrives perfectly unharmed) and nuke your Chimera/whatever vehicle you're using. Man, I can definitely see why you use these arguments! Makes it so much easier to prove that you're right. While we're at it, a Dire Avenger squad bladestorms your Vets. Where's your unit now?

Anyway, this thread is about why blob squads have some tough matchups, not why Mechvets are good.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

In your fantasy world, yes, they will have to difficult terrain everywhere. Nice work though. You have definitely proved that in your fantasy world blob squads suck. I definitely have to concede that.

This is a gaming table.

Notice the terrain.
If you can fit 30-40 guys on a table, spread out enough to reduce losses from templates/blast markers, without having to move through difficult terrain when moving, then you aren't playing with enough terrain. Having to difficult terrain mobs (of all types) is generally considered a noticable drawback.

That's a nice table. Again you're making weird ass assumptions about how all gaming tables look. Every single table I've ever played on looks nothing like that. Now have I had to take DT tests before? Yeah sure. But I've never played on a table that designates pretty much everything as difficult terrain. So really every gaming table is different and we're going back to your fantasy world.

Joey wrote:Out of interest, you ever played against a universal FNP army?

Actually, my foot guard blob army has played many times against a variety of Decent of Angels/ regular deployed blood angels and chaos nurgle marines.

My highest proportion of wins is against them. My foot blob guard table/solidly crushed them almost every time (95%+). I don't think small elite armies are a problem for blob guard, even with feel no pain. Almost everyone who plays successful guard of any fashion will tell you that the main killing power comes from endless numbers of lasguns.

I think I poped in on the end of a larger argument, so I'll quickly get back to the original question... Talos Pain Engines. Those are the bane of the blob. Toughness 7 means you can't even hurt it through weight of dice and while it'll be a very long fight tying you both up for the rest of the game, if it gets you before you get to your objective, you're stuck there until the bell goes.


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Je suis2 au hazard wrote:I don't play guard, so cannot dress a comprehensive list.

What I CAN tell you, is that my tau slaughter blob guard.

Everything in my army wounds on 2's and ignores your armour, and most of my weapons ignore carapace too.

Most of the weapons in my army have high VoF

Most of my models are 3+ 2W

My basic infantry has 4+ armour.

Plus, you cannot use melee against me as most armies can if you're going infantry blob, because JSJ means you won't catch me. Also, most of my weapons outrange guard.

I am not trying to tell you you're wrong, just pointing out that you're making the argument seem too "you bring this army, I win".
I played against a Tau player yesterday using my blob guard. It was pitched battle and the 2 objective mission. With a 31 man mass of men with 3x lascannon, 3x Plasma gun, in cover holding my objective, he couldn't move them without exposing himself to serious return fire. so he picked away until turn 5 when he brought in 2 trasports with 8 warriros a piece and 2 2man suit squads. he did serious hurt to the blob, but in moving close enough to be on my objective the next round I was able to move off of my cover and assault the 8 man squad and multiassault one of the suit groups too with just one model from the blob. The now 9 man blob (with 3sgts+commissar with power weapons) massacred the firewarriors and the suits couldn't do enough to hold and hoo-ah, a surprise charge (since now I didn't hold my objective either), half won the game. The other half of the game was won by the remnants of 3 blobs who finaly made it, much reduced to the broadsides desperately trying to contest their home objective. The 6 sgts and 3 commissars all charged in and combined for 36 power sword attacks and wiped the full strength unit before the regular guardsmen could attack. The third half was making his troop choices my main target for almost the whole game and the last 50% was definately putting my objective as far away from his as possible and deploying 90% of my army as close to his objective as I could.

That's not to say I would beat you, just that blob guard can beat the tau, and I don't find it very difficult because (along with necrons at initiative 2), I can finally seriously do big damage in close combat, and while the massed guns is scary, I'm just used to taking casualties. Playing blobs is a tactical and strategic challenge, but is fun and very doable. You just need to make sure you deploy well, place objectives intelligently and place the terrain with a good eye for coverage. With 25% standard, it's not that hard to place enough terrain in the middle area of the table that you can advance through to get saving throws.

@Kungfujew,

I know it's not a 100% chance to beat you and all likeminded IG blob players, but I was just pointing out that blob guard are at a disadvantage against tau lists. With weapons optimized for killing light infantry, and great mobility...

With tau it really takes some poor planning to get suit in combat with non-jump infantry models, since JSJ makes them slippery...

kungfujew wrote:

Joey wrote:Out of interest, you ever played against a universal FNP army?

Actually, my foot guard blob army has played many times against a variety of Decent of Angels/ regular deployed blood angels and chaos nurgle marines.

My highest proportion of wins is against them. My foot blob guard table/solidly crushed them almost every time (95%+). I don't think small elite armies are a problem for blob guard, even with feel no pain. Almost everyone who plays successful guard of any fashion will tell you that the main killing power comes from endless numbers of lasguns.

A FNP MEQ requires 2*3*3*2 shots to kill, or 32 shots. That is at best ten men with FRFSRF. To kill one man.
Plasma vets rapid-firing would get 6 shots, 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, 2.5 dead with FOMT, plus the lasguns for another 0.4.
So even a full blob that was entirely within 12" of the enemy, AND managed to get FRFSRF would only get 3 kills against that 10 man assault squad with a Priest and Reclesiarch. Stick in another 1.25 for if they have plasma guns. Still pretty anaemic.

Fixed. Also congratulations, your 400 points just wiped out a ~200 point unit and will get annihilated next turn, you must be so proud

Yeah they get annihilated. Of course. By thin air maybe. You know sometimes it is important to know the game... 400p spent to kill 200p in one turn is a good investment. If my 2000p army would be able to kill 1000p a turn, I would be quite good...

I can't help it, if some people can't play transport based armies and some people use unbalanced terrain. But ymmv. If you like to play on open field with no LOS-blocking terrain, I have no problem with that. But don't expect that to be balanced. If there are LOS blocking terrain pieces I am able to hide rhinos pretty easily from immobile long range anti tank weaponry.

A little more qualified arguments would be nice. Fact is, a blob is tough, I know that. If it focusses on one target, it is hard to stop. But it can not adapt to new situations pretty well except for just surviving. And on the defense the cc-power is not very good.

Saying that blobs suck because dedicated assualt troops can win against them is like saying chimeras suck because dedicated anti tank wipes them.

-Nazdreg- wrote:
I can't help it, if some people can't play transport based armies and some people use unbalanced terrain. But ymmv. If you like to play on open field with no LOS-blocking terrain, I have no problem with that. But don't expect that to be balanced. If there are LOS blocking terrain pieces I am able to hide rhinos pretty easily from immobile long range anti tank weaponry.

Yeah, i've had many people try this, in practice it isn't as easy, and is a losing proposition unless somehow you have enough firepower to outshoot infantry guard in cover. Tau(?) and GK stormbolter spam can do this I guess, but I haven't seen it.

The only real weakness that infantry guard have are force concentration, if the other guy has a bunch of flamers or blast template weapons you need to spread out a bit, which means you suffer against armies like BA that can focus one flank down and are fast enough that you don't get much time to readjust. I counter this by using al'harim's meltagun circus to power down a flank on turn 2-3 (generally) It isn't fool proof, but the threat of nearly 20 meltas showing up on a board edge generally keeps people away from them.

a 400 point unit killing a 200 point unit, is again, stupid. your entire army is not going to be 400pt deathstars that can all do their job at the same time.. and it is extremely common to have to throw a squad/blob into the grinder to slow it down or just have the unit move up, stand 1" away and FRSRF to soak the inevitable assault and prevent you from making much forward progress. Properly played you'd be eating ~60-90 lasguns, a bunch of lascannon and autocannon/melta fire, and only make maybe 2-3 inches of forward progress a turn after you eat squad after squad. The entire game can be a game of attrition as you attempt to grind your way to my objective(s) while the outflanking melta circus tries to grind to yours. In a tourney situation, which is where infantry guard shine, you accept this, because the other guy is probably taking about 1/4 or so of his points in useless anti-tank (against you) you sometimes have to sac more than a units point value to bring it down, it happens, not a biggie.

points-hammer mid game "omg is xyz going to pay for itself?!" is moronic and people that practice it don't win tourneys.

points-hammer mid game "omg is xyz going to pay for itself?!" is moronic and people that practice it don't win tourneys.

Thats true.

but the threat of nearly 20 meltas showing up on a board edge generally keeps people away from them.

Depends on the army. An aggressive army would make an all out attack at the centre to make use of your lack of men there. Then they would have taken the center and would wait for als reinforcements to crush them too. A defensive army would still refuse flank and shield the other flank with cheap skirmishers. An elite army will keep in the middle and hidden maybe sniping out some HWS and play for draw. A sneaky army will stay all in reserve and the flank effect would be nullified. Then they would concentrate on one part of your army.

a 400 point unit killing a 200 point unit, is again, stupid

This per se statement is stupid as well. It all depends on the situation. If I can kill 200p in one turn using 400p of force without the risk of a counter, I will do. If I am at the risk of a counter, I will not. And given I have to assault 21 men, most likely I will find a spot, from where to assault, where a counter isn't possible. Especially if I have a mobile supporting wall at my disposal.

your entire army is not going to be 400pt deathstars that can all do their job at the same time..

Yes 20 tacs is a deathstar... oO You don't have all blobs present at every spot of the table as well...

The entire game can be a game of attrition as you attempt to grind your way to my objective(s) while the outflanking melta circus tries to grind to yours. In a tourney situation, which is where infantry guard shine, you accept this, because the other guy is probably taking about 1/4 or so of his points in useless anti-tank (against you) you sometimes have to sac more than a units point value to bring it down, it happens, not a biggie.

depends on the size of the defensive part of the blob guard. (If defensive part is bigger, I would wait for the flankers and kill them first to secure the draw, if the defensive part is smaller, I would attack immediately with full force to prevent them from grinding at all while trying to avoid the flankers impact) Normally it is better to focus against infantry guard. To expose forces to both elements of your army would be uncautious. Anti tank isnt useless, because you have HWS. Why is infantry guard better on tournaments than for fun games? It is a drawish army that is not going to score high. It is hard to wipe out, but thats worthless if you are not a killer army.

No one really uses hws for that reason, i take my heavy weapons in 20 man shooting blobs. The only time i would even consider hws is if it was a very high point game and i am out of infantry room.

Forcing you from board edges make things dicey, as then youll have limited options on how to take on the army peice by peice.

Infantry guard work best in tourneys since many dont have viable anti horde options expecting standard mechspam.

20 tac marines isnt a deathstar, you are right, its just about every man a sane player would bring running into a situation theyll probably be outnumbeted 4 or 5 to one.

Joey wrote:

For the record a 21-man blob (165 points) being charged by 10 striking scorpians (160 points) will take 4.4 casualties from shooting, then be charged for 31 attacks, 20 hits, 13 wounds( 17 with doom), 8.6 dead (11 with doom). That's 13 dead in one turn. Guard strike back with 9 PW attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 dead. The normal guys also do 5 attacks, 2.5 hit, 1.25 wound, 0.4 failed armour saves, that's 2.6 dead in total.
The turn after gives 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds, 4.4 dead. And if either of those rounds the blob was Doomed (pretty likely), they're dead.
You might be satisfied with a 3:1 casualty ratio in your enemy's favour, I am not.

scorpians have 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge.


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Joey wrote:
The vanguards don't wipe out the blob, they hold them in place while other stuff moves around/claims objectives/charges them.
A 21-man blob is fine unless you plan on doing something, anything with it. It can't shoot anything, it can't melée anything. All it will do is die.
Striking scorpians have 3+ armour save and strike at S4 with 3 attacks (iirc) on the charge. With 3s to hit, 3s to wound, and re-rollable armour saves. Yes, they will mulch blobs just fine.

scorpians have 3 attacks base, 4 on the charge.

Joey wrote:As mentioned above, the chance of a chimera being wrecked or exploded from two BS 4 meltaguns is 0.6 (Unless there is something in the codex that improves this, in which case fair enough). Either way, the chance of me deploying my vets within charge range of your troops is nil.

The chance of you deploying within charge range of my squad is nil? what kind of delusional world do you live in?

Joey wrote:Best case (for me) I'm wrecked and I deploy out the back, easily >6" away from the troops that shot the transport.

...If I fire in your rear armor I'd like to see you deploy "out the back" and into the brawl. You seem to think I am incapable of firing from any point near your hatch

Joey wrote:Worst case I deploy in a crater, still probably 6" away but either way you'll need a difficult terrain test.

What? It just went from "nil" to "probably you wont make the difficult terrain test"?
Good sir! this "nil" chance idea that you are putting forward is starting to appear fault!

Joey wrote:Even if you do charge and liquidise them, by some miricle. Thankfully I play mech, so next turn you're going to be getting a face full of plasma guns from all across the line.
Hell sometimes the best thing that can happen is duping my opponent into thinking that killing my men is important, since 99% of the time it means they're in prime range of the rest of my chaps.

Ha Ha Ha, My army is one MEQ unit that just charged you? You don't think the line of plasma doesn't have anything to shoot at asides from that one squad? If one unit has made it, what makes you think the rest didn't make it?

You really are a special character, you are

Joey wrote:I look foward to playing against the marine/chaos player who runs his unmeched infantry right up to my lines. Seriously.
Plasma vets have the MEQ killing power that blobs lack completely. .

Ok I'll play DOA BA. Since I do recall you making a thread, seemingly in tears (although you might have just been really stoned) because your guard kept getting slaughtered. In very one sided battles.

By unmeched infantry

Oh, the amusement!
Then go play with some foot templars


aaaand on a small note- blobs have MEQ killing power in melee that the Vets lack completely. The Vets have a MEQ killing power that the blob cannot match (not lack completely. See the difference?). The blobs can soak up more damage than the vets. They are apples and oranges.

Dont forget: blobs dont asplode themselves with plasma overheat burns!

Jihallah wrote:

Joey wrote:As mentioned above, the chance of a chimera being wrecked or exploded from two BS 4 meltaguns is 0.6 (Unless there is something in the codex that improves this, in which case fair enough). Either way, the chance of me deploying my vets within charge range of your troops is nil.

The chance of you deploying within charge range of my squad is nil? what kind of delusional world do you live in?

Joey wrote:Best case (for me) I'm wrecked and I deploy out the back, easily >6" away from the troops that shot the transport.

...If I fire in your rear armor I'd like to see you deploy "out the back" and into the brawl. You seem to think I am incapable of firing from any point near your hatch

Joey wrote:Worst case I deploy in a crater, still probably 6" away but either way you'll need a difficult terrain test.

What? It just went from "nil" to "probably you wont make the difficult terrain test"?
Good sir! this "nil" chance idea that you are putting forward is starting to appear fault!

Joey wrote:Even if you do charge and liquidise them, by some miricle. Thankfully I play mech, so next turn you're going to be getting a face full of plasma guns from all across the line.
Hell sometimes the best thing that can happen is duping my opponent into thinking that killing my men is important, since 99% of the time it means they're in prime range of the rest of my chaps.

Ha Ha Ha, My army is one MEQ unit that just charged you? You don't think the line of plasma doesn't have anything to shoot at asides from that one squad? If one unit has made it, what makes you think the rest didn't make it?

You really are a special character, you are

Joey wrote:I look foward to playing against the marine/chaos player who runs his unmeched infantry right up to my lines. Seriously.
Plasma vets have the MEQ killing power that blobs lack completely. .

Ok I'll play DOA BA. Since I do recall you making a thread, seemingly in tears (although you might have just been really stoned) because your guard kept getting slaughtered. In very one sided battles.

By unmeched infantry

Oh, the amusement!
Then go play with some foot templars


aaaand on a small note- blobs have MEQ killing power in melee that the Vets lack completely. The Vets have a MEQ killing power that the blob cannot match (not lack completely. See the difference?). The blobs can soak up more damage than the vets. They are apples and oranges.

Let me know how you use BS 3 lasguns to kill FNP MEQs. Seriously.
5/6 razors with assault squads and attached priests giving FNP bubbles, all moving 18" turn 1 and deploying smoke, then turn 2 getting out and charging with an 18" threat range. You'll struggle to pop more than 1 or two of those transports, and even if you do there'll still be 5 more ready to go, and the squad that's transport you popped can still assault anyway. It's unlikely your lasguns will get to shoot at all before they're assaulted.
Your lascannons/heavy support will be able to snipe at BA's preditors but that's pretty much it.
Oh and that outflanking Baal will be showing up too. Enjoy that flame template.

The real strength of the power blob is in close combat. That's a lot of attacks that will be ignoring armour saves AND ignoring FNP saves.
Combine three squads and you have as many plasma shots as a vet squad, whilst being a lot more durable with great assault potential.
And why are all these examples involving an army against a single blob? Some very strange games goin on out here...

No because an opponent isn't going to charge within bailing distance of another blob - as long as he's 12" away from them they can't do anything. Actually they can't anyway since the IG will have to defenders react, essentially mobbing the assaulters and preventing a counter assault.
20 assault troops on the charge, spread out over two squads with a PW on each sargent, is 54 normal attacks, 9 PW ones. That's 36 hits, 30 wounds, 20 dead after armour saves, the PWs give 6 hits, 5 dead. 25 of your blob are now dead from the charge. If there is a chaplain/reclesiarch in EITHER of those squads, the entire blob is dead.
On average you will kill TWO in return. Apparently that justifies these guys.
Oh and, even better, the assault squad will finish you off at the bottom of their turn, meaning you can't shoot them at all, and they can then move/assault in their turn.

Again, in that situation id sac the commisar, leaving the squad to be wiped, since you will likely consolidate away to make useof you mobility, youll probably only get snagged by one more blob, but the torrent of close range firepower combined with the assault, will take its toll, esp if there are wildcards like a screened leman, marbo, or valk demo sws in the cards.
The important thing heres is it seems that you are dedicating a large majority of your army, or all of it, to that one good push.
A pbs pinning one of your squads, rough rider counterassault, good close range shooting, you are assuming alot will go your way for the rest of the game, or ignoring it, while focusing on one inevitable assault.
Fnp ba is a tough fight sometimes but it is apparent you havent played a good guard player.

Joey wrote:
Let me know how you use BS 3 lasguns to kill FNP MEQs. Seriously.

Let me know where I mentioned lasguns as being a killed of FNP MEQs?
But since you seem confused- You need to roll a 4+ to hit. Since they are T4 and you are S3, you then need a 5+ to wound. Then they get their armor save of 3+ and then a 4+ reroll for the FNP USR
And that is how a lasgun will kill a FNP MEQ Model
It's even harder when they are plague marines

Joey wrote:5/6 razors with assault squads and attached priests giving FNP bubbles, all moving 18" turn 1 and deploying smoke, then turn 2 getting out and charging with an 18" threat range. You'll struggle to pop more than 1 or two of those transports, and even if you do there'll still be 5 more ready to go, and the squad that's transport you popped can still assault anyway. It's unlikely your lasguns will get to shoot at all before they're assaulted.
Your lascannons/heavy support will be able to snipe at BA's preditors but that's pretty much it.
Oh and that outflanking Baal will be showing up too. Enjoy that flame template.

I love your ability to read my posts. Put down the bong mate, try and use that brain for things outside the pretty colors k?

Jihallah wrote:
Ok I'll play DOA BA. Since I do recall you making a thread, seemingly in tears because your guard kept getting slaughtered. In very one sided battles.

By unmeched infantry.

In case your still on the pipe, I'll make it colorful for you

Jihallah wrote:DOA BA.

Jihallah wrote:DOA BA.

Jihallah wrote:DOA BA.

"yeah, you might kill my blob, but the rest of my army will gut you!"

Because warhammer is one unit vs an army. What a special world you live in joey

No one really uses hws for that reason, i take my heavy weapons in 20 man shooting blobs. The only time i would even consider hws is if it was a very high point game and i am out of infantry room.

Forcing you from board edges make things dicey, as then youll have limited options on how to take on the army peice by peice.

Infantry guard work best in tourneys since many dont have viable anti horde options expecting standard mechspam.

20 tac marines isnt a deathstar, you are right, its just about every man a sane player would bring running into a situation theyll probably be outnumbeted 4 or 5 to one.

Ah ok I see where you come from. Apparently we have a different metagame then. Your opponents seem to play almost only mech-MSU? Then I can understand why you insist on the blob armys power.
However here a good tournament army must be able to deal with 180 boyz as well as with Mech-MSU or Tyranid Tervigon lists.
In my example (I play hybrid guard) I need foot support for selective charges, I need at least one mobile multiple flamer unit, I need a source for reliable AP2, I need anti transport weapons. Not in masses, but with quality and mobility.

But if you only face Anti-Mech-MSU lists, the logical way to play is of course infantry.

No not all mech msu, but the few mech lists are very strong. I still think all infantry, or light mech mixed is a very strong counter meta choice

Have we had a clear answer yet on how blobs can deal with MSU mech MEQ (the overwealming majority of armies out there)?
Pretty sure we haven't.

Furioso Spam BA.

/thread

Have we had a clear answer yet on how blobs can deal with MSU mech MEQ

I think the answer is pretty easy. They win. This is the kind of army they are designed for.

@Grundz

I still think all infantry, or light mech mixed is a very strong counter meta choice

light mech mixed is the general build here. 2 Manticores, executioner, 3 vendettas, ccs, one platoon and the rest is veterans. At least that is what our most famous guy plays. Infantry only isn't seen at all here. That doesnt mean its bad, but it means our meta is another one. Because I wouldnt say that infantry guard would kill our meta here.

Joey wrote:Have we had a clear answer yet on how blobs can deal with MSU mech MEQ (the overwealming majority of armies out there)?
Pretty sure we haven't.

MSU isn't a problem for blob guard. Blobs are big enough that they can pretty easily multicharge stuff. This means lots of frag grenades against a transport wall, and it means that it's pretty easy to get a couple of units trapped in close combat where the blob uses its power weapons on one while the other is tarpitted, and then consolidating in and killing the other when it's done with the first.

The main problem with MSU armies is that none of their individual units are very durable (because they're SMALL units), which means that they are very vulnerable in situations where you get into a durability contest. This is especially true in an army that can pack enough firepower to be able to nearly wipe out any MSU unit with a single battle cannon shot (or whatever), leaving broken fragments of already small squads to get ground down easily in close combat.

Nazdreg- I've said it before, and I'm saying it again mate. One of the best english speaking posters here, both in language and actual post content. Never stop

as no one has read what Ze German has actually said-

-Nazdreg- wrote:But if you only face Anti-Mech-MSU lists, the logical way to play is of course infantry.

Joey wrote:Have we had a clear answer yet on how blobs can deal with MSU mech MEQ (the overwealming majority of armies out there)?
Pretty sure we haven't.

Grundz wrote:No not all mech msu, but the few mech lists are very strong. I still think all infantry, or light mech mixed is a very strong counter meta choice

I was interested in reading this thread in the beginning because my favorite version of the guard army is the blob, but it has really devolved into a yelling match between people who clearly don't play blobs or don't play people who can fight blobs well. Then of course everyone else jumps in all defensive. I just took an all infantry army (except for one vendetta, as I ran out of heavy weapon teams to make into lascannon teams), to a 1850 tourney and did quite well. I fought a chaos army with two deamon princes, both of whom died in close combat after charging in unhurt 2 game turns earlier one into a 20 blob and the other into a 30. There were also 7 plague marines that got charged by two 20 man blobs and lost 2 marines over 3 turns of fighting. That's unusual, but on 18 power sword attacks I couldn't roll 6's to wound. It happens. Does that mean the blob is bad? No. That just means I was unlucky in that one part of oone game. When 5 chaos marines charged in to help, they all died in one round. In the next game the same two blobs slaughtered a 5 man TH/SS termie squad with a combat tac squad to help. Even with bad luck. Although, a single squad of sternguard poped out of a rhino that just wouldn't die and charged a diferent blob. That blob died quickly. Again, the blobs did well dispite less than stellar dice, but what does that really tell you? The last game was to see who would place in the top three and my dice punished me for rolling so well in the first game vs those princes. It was brutal as 8 hive guard blew up everything that wasn't a blob in the first two turns after stealing the initiative, but the sheer staying power let me lose by only a slim margine and had the game continued it would have passed from loss to draw to win. What did I learn, or rather see repeat itself again? The blob is not the be all end all. It trades staying power and massed guns for concentrated killing power and speed. If you leave them to be static units, you will be out maneuvered, but if you move when you should and shoot when something needs to die, your enemy will not be able to run circles around you like they would have you believe. 20 men is compact and managable, and multiples of that let's you be flexible, but very bad luck can see that squad vanish fast, to anything, so it better be supported. Where 30-40 men will out last almost anything, riding out bad luck with staying power.

The blob guard is more like a different army than a subset of the imperial guard. It needs to be balanced to take on all comers and then it will perform only as good as your playing ability can make it. And please, enoough blind loud rhetoric. That doesn't help anyone. If I've seen a single wolf lord termie with a TT/SS eat half a tyranid army for breakfast and end up unhurt only to see it charge 2 hive guard and roll 3 ones on it's saves and die before swinging, you better believe I've seen a blob eat and spit out close combat specialists and die in droves to the least close combat oriented units possible in back to back games.

Ailaros wrote:

Joey wrote:Have we had a clear answer yet on how blobs can deal with MSU mech MEQ (the overwealming majority of armies out there)?
Pretty sure we haven't.

MSU isn't a problem for blob guard. Blobs are big enough that they can pretty easily multicharge stuff. This means lots of frag grenades against a transport wall, and it means that it's pretty easy to get a couple of units trapped in close combat where the blob uses its power weapons on one while the other is tarpitted, and then consolidating in and killing the other when it's done with the first.

The main problem with MSU armies is that none of their individual units are very durable (because they're SMALL units), which means that they are very vulnerable in situations where you get into a durability contest. This is especially true in an army that can pack enough firepower to be able to nearly wipe out any MSU unit with a single battle cannon shot (or whatever), leaving broken fragments of already small squads to get ground down easily in close combat.

I find MSU armies the worst for large guard units. I mean, five marines holding up 20 guardsmen? That could take out a flank and do who knows what. After that there's dreadnoughts (can kill 50 IG with little hassle), Purifiers and then that Necron lord who could take out all the troopers with one attack. I'm trying out a unit of twenty and a unit with thirty in a platoon, but I won't go any higher in a single squad.

Well those 5 marines will not last more then one assualt round. Two are on average dead from the pw. The other three are dead from the 36 other attacks...

And a dred will tarpit a blob all game. Even a 21 man blob will last 5 rounds. Now the rediculous blood talons will wipe a blob.

General_Marshall wrote:I find MSU armies the worst for large guard units. I mean, five marines holding up 20 guardsmen?

They won't for long. As mentioned, just run the numbers. The only way a half a tac squad is being seriously disruptive to a blob is if they're insanely lucky (or the guard player rolls like I do with power weapons...)

General_Marshall wrote:That could take out a flank and do who knows what.

After they've killed a single 165 point unit? Well, that's what I've got the entire rest of my army for.

General_Marshall wrote:After that there's dreadnoughts (can kill 50 IG with little hassle)

But how long will it take them? If the close combat goes on to the end of the game, then it's a wash, pointswise. Plus, it's not like you can't see dreadnoughts getting close to your stuff and, for example, shoot them with meltaguns, or something in the rest of your army.

General_Marshall wrote:Purifiers and then that Necron lord who could take out all the troopers with one attack.

Every unit in the game has at least a couple of hard counters. If you take any unit in the game and put it up against one of its hard counters in a 1 vs 1 in a complete vacuum, of course it's going to lose. That doesn't mean it isn't a good unit overall.

kungfujew wrote:it has really devolved into a yelling match between people who clearly don't play blobs or don't play people who can fight blobs well.

Which is kind of funny, given that I got into playing blobs because of looking at the statistics and the kinds of odds that they run. You don't need to be able to play with blobs well to be able to see the usefulness of them, you've just got to be able to be objective enough to give them a proper look. Flimsy reasoning, logical fallacy, and bad math can make any good unit look bad (or bad unit look good, for that matter), but more objective thinking wins out in general, as it's designed to do.

How many weapons do blob guard bring to deal with land raiders? Most of the guard in my area play mech vets.

If they don't have much, I'm thinking Templars with mobs in LRCs benefitting from preferred enemy would work-If they do I would probably bring shooty termies with lots of assault cannons backed up by guys in rhinos

Meltaguns with BID, melta bombs, Vendettas in hybrid lists.

Ailaros wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:I find MSU armies the worst for large guard units. I mean, five marines holding up 20 guardsmen?

They won't for long. As mentioned, just run the numbers. The only way a half a tac squad is being seriously disruptive to a blob is if they're insanely lucky (or the guard player rolls like I do with power weapons...)

General_Marshall wrote:That could take out a flank and do who knows what.

After they've killed a single 165 point unit? Well, that's what I've got the entire rest of my army for.

General_Marshall wrote:After that there's dreadnoughts (can kill 50 IG with little hassle)

But how long will it take them? If the close combat goes on to the end of the game, then it's a wash, pointswise. Plus, it's not like you can't see dreadnoughts getting close to your stuff and, for example, shoot them with meltaguns, or something in the rest of your army.

General_Marshall wrote:Purifiers and then that Necron lord who could take out all the troopers with one attack.

Every unit in the game has at least a couple of hard counters. If you take any unit in the game and put it up against one of its hard counters in a 1 vs 1 in a complete vacuum, of course it's going to lose. That doesn't mean it isn't a good unit overall.

kungfujew wrote:it has really devolved into a yelling match between people who clearly don't play blobs or don't play people who can fight blobs well.

Which is kind of funny, given that I got into playing blobs because of looking at the statistics and the kinds of odds that they run. You don't need to be able to play with blobs well to be able to see the usefulness of them, you've just got to be able to be objective enough to give them a proper look. Flimsy reasoning, logical fallacy, and bad math can make any good unit look bad (or bad unit look good, for that matter), but more objective thinking wins out in general, as it's designed to do.

Okay true, but in the land of the stormraven dropoff dreadnoughts do whatever they want most the time. I find power weapons a waste for guard, the only one in my army is the one my lord commissar has, and really, its worth next to nothing.

General_Marshall wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:I find MSU armies the worst for large guard units. I mean, five marines holding up 20 guardsmen?

They won't for long. As mentioned, just run the numbers. The only way a half a tac squad is being seriously disruptive to a blob is if they're insanely lucky (or the guard player rolls like I do with power weapons...)

General_Marshall wrote:That could take out a flank and do who knows what.

After they've killed a single 165 point unit? Well, that's what I've got the entire rest of my army for.

General_Marshall wrote:After that there's dreadnoughts (can kill 50 IG with little hassle)

But how long will it take them? If the close combat goes on to the end of the game, then it's a wash, pointswise. Plus, it's not like you can't see dreadnoughts getting close to your stuff and, for example, shoot them with meltaguns, or something in the rest of your army.

General_Marshall wrote:Purifiers and then that Necron lord who could take out all the troopers with one attack.

Every unit in the game has at least a couple of hard counters. If you take any unit in the game and put it up against one of its hard counters in a 1 vs 1 in a complete vacuum, of course it's going to lose. That doesn't mean it isn't a good unit overall.

kungfujew wrote:it has really devolved into a yelling match between people who clearly don't play blobs or don't play people who can fight blobs well.

Which is kind of funny, given that I got into playing blobs because of looking at the statistics and the kinds of odds that they run. You don't need to be able to play with blobs well to be able to see the usefulness of them, you've just got to be able to be objective enough to give them a proper look. Flimsy reasoning, logical fallacy, and bad math can make any good unit look bad (or bad unit look good, for that matter), but more objective thinking wins out in general, as it's designed to do.

Okay true, but in the land of the stormraven dropoff dreadnoughts do whatever they want most the time. I find power weapons a waste for guard, the only one in my army is the one my lord commissar has, and really, its worth next to nothing.

Well for power blob, you get your sergeant, your commissars and everything with PW and you can get ~20 PW attack on the charge, plus like 80 normal attacks...

slightly off topic, but I've always wondered how a mega-kroot blob would do against a mega guard blob in CC? I'm thinking kroot would win...20 kroot with S4 WS4 3 attacks on the charge, plus one is a shaper meaning +2A +2W +Ld...12 hounds with 3 attacks on the charge S4 WS4 I5 and three krootox with S6 four attacks on the charge and multiple wounds...107 attacks on the charge, I think, with a third of that attacking before the guardsmen and everything being WS4 and 12 attacks wounding on 2+...

Then again...
Blob squad...

certainly A power weapon doesn't do much. What makes power blobs good is that you can take a couple of them and, more importantly, use them turn after turn to slowly grind your opponents down. Power blobs may not kill more than a couple of models in a single turn of close combat, but with all those abblative wounds and the commissar's leadership, they're going to be able to use those weapons for several turns.

Really, you can't think about power blobs like you might think of, say, khorne berzerkers - whose whole point is to be able to do a shocking amount of damage up-front to make up for their relative lack of staying power. Power blobs have a very different way of doing damage - they do it in the form of 40 power weapon attacks over two full game turns of close combat, rather than in the form of all their damage up front.

Like a lot of things in the guard, one of them isn't scary, but several of them applied turn over turn are lethal. Think of the as the DoT army. Well, a DoT army that also has the ability to apply enough up-front firepower to knock out your opponents toys (like stormravens) in the first couple of turns, forcing your opponent into a battle of attrition that they lose.

Ailaros wrote:certainly A power weapon doesn't do much. What makes power blobs good is that you can take a couple of them and, more importantly, use them turn after turn to slowly grind your opponents down. Power blobs may not kill more than a couple of models in a single turn of close combat, but with all those abblative wounds and the commissar's leadership, they're going to be able to use those weapons for several turns.

Really, you can't think about power blobs like you might think of, say, khorne berzerkers - whose whole point is to be able to do a shocking amount of damage up-front to make up for their relative lack of staying power. Power blobs have a very different way of doing damage - they do it in the form of 40 power weapon attacks over two full game turns of close combat, rather than in the form of all their damage up front.

Like a lot of things in the guard, one of them isn't scary, but several of them applied turn over turn are lethal. Think of the as the DoT army. Well, a DoT army that also has the ability to apply enough up-front firepower to knock out your opponents toys (like stormravens) in the first couple of turns, forcing your opponent into a battle of attrition that they lose.

Against a tac squad, a charging maxed out powerblob can do at least as much up front damage as berserkers, the problem is that that's ~400 points or more, which, held up against berserkers charge to point ratio, is pathetic

@Je suis2 au hazard

You didnt get the idea of Ailaros post, did you? Powerblobs dont work as shock infantry. They are good at attrition fights. So the first damage dealt is not most important. Khorne berzerkers are shock infantry. So you can't compare them like that.

-Nazdreg- wrote:@Je suis2 au hazard

You didnt get the idea of Ailaros post, did you? Powerblobs dont work as shock infantry. They are good at attrition fights. So the first damage dealt is not most important. Khorne berzerkers are shock infantry. So you can't compare them like that.

I get the point. I am simply saying that they are not limited to attrition. 20 power attacks and 80 normal attacks on the charge can wipe out entire squads in a turn

Sure, and you can throw a priest or two in there and straken nearby, etc. to make them shock troops of sorts. The problem is that they're never going to be as shock as real shock troops.

Had they some way to charge from 18" away or had higher strength or initiative (or weapon skill), or something, then perhaps. Until then, if you want a proper shock troop, the guard are pretty much limited to rough riders.

Ailaros wrote:Sure, and you can throw a priest or two in there and straken nearby, etc. to make them shock troops of sorts. The problem is that they're never going to be as shock as real shock troops.

Had they some way to charge from 18" away or had higher strength or initiative (or weapon skill), or something, then perhaps. Until then, if you want a proper shock troop, the guard are pretty much limited to rough riders.

Aye, but the point of priests and Straken is to help punch through weaker walls in the enemies defense, caused by a bit of battle cannon fire. This is the Imperial Guard, no one needs shock troops!

Ogryns make great shock troops, and then they die. Did I mention that they also cost a lot, too much. I suppose in a fluffy themed army you could use ogryns as the shock troopers backed up by a guard power blob, but that is very situational and reliant on perfect delivery.

Ogryn are a lot better than all that, but they're not shock troops. What ogryn (led by a lord commissar) are is a condensed power blob. They do about as much damage in the shooting phase, and about as much damage in close combat, and are about as difficult to kill (fewer wounds with higher toughness), but they do it in a much smaller footprint, with better concentration of force. That and they also have a different kind of toughness profile, being more vulnerable to some types of weapons while being able to more or less shrug off other weapons that hurt blobs a lot more.

In any case, though, they're not shock troops. They don't have the mobility or up-front killing power. They kill much more like blobs.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Ogryns make great shock troops, and then they die. Did I mention that they also cost a lot, too much. I suppose in a fluffy themed army you could use ogryns as the shock troopers backed up by a guard power blob, but that is very situational and reliant on perfect delivery.

Ogryns are under used. They are shock troopers in a sense, but they still need there targets to be shelled a little before commiting to an assault. That's atleast what I have found.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:Ogryn are a lot better than all that, but they're not shock troops. What ogryn (led by a lord commissar) are is a condensed power blob. They do about as much damage in the shooting phase, and about as much damage in close combat, and are about as difficult to kill (fewer wounds with higher toughness), but they do it in a much smaller footprint, with better concentration of force. That and they also have a different kind of toughness profile, being more vulnerable to some types of weapons while being able to more or less shrug off other weapons that hurt blobs a lot more.

In any case, though, they're not shock troops. They don't have the mobility or up-front killing power. They kill much more like blobs.

Okay, you are right, they don't kill with power weapons, but four str 6 attacks each on the charge? They pound enemies to a pulp, who cares if a marine gets an armour save, its still being wounded on 2s.

General_Marshall wrote:Okay, you are right, they don't kill with power weapons, but four str 6 attacks each on the charge? They pound enemies to a pulp, who cares if a marine gets an armour save, its still being wounded on 2s.

Do the math, though. For the price of an ogryn, you could get 6 guardsmen. The ogryn gets 4 S6 attacks that stick .56 wounds on a space marine. 6 guardsmen on the charge get 12 S3 attacks that cause .66. Even when the ogryn get the charge, they're out-chopped by their points in guardsmen in bayonets. Off the charge, things get worse for the ogryn. The only thing that restores the balance killing-wise is that ogryn's guns are assault weapons, so they can shoot and still assault.

Ogryn are killy, but without the ability to charge from 18" away, or a WS or initiative better than your average marine, or some sort of power weapon, ogryn simply lack the up-front killing power to be a proper shock unit. Of course, ogryn are tough as nails and have stubborn and still have lots of medium-strength attacks after the charge, so in the end they're more like power blobs - outlasting their opponents and slowly grinding them down to defeat.

Ailaros wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:Okay, you are right, they don't kill with power weapons, but four str 6 attacks each on the charge? They pound enemies to a pulp, who cares if a marine gets an armour save, its still being wounded on 2s.

Do the math, though. For the price of an ogryn, you could get 6 guardsmen. The ogryn gets 4 S6 attacks that stick .56 wounds on a space marine. 6 guardsmen on the charge get 12 S3 attacks that cause .66. Even when the ogryn get the charge, they're out-chopped by their points in guardsmen in bayonets. Off the charge, things get worse for the ogryn. The only thing that restores the balance killing-wise is that ogryn's guns are assault weapons, so they can shoot and still assault.

Ogryn are killy, but without the ability to charge from 18" away, or a WS or initiative better than your average marine, or some sort of power weapon, ogryn simply lack the up-front killing power to be a proper shock unit. Of course, ogryn are tough as nails and have stubborn and still have lots of medium-strength attacks after the charge, so in the end they're more like power blobs - outlasting their opponents and slowly grinding them down to defeat.

Okay, in theory, but math's not a sure way to test the worth of units. A number is a number, it having a high or low value doesn't matter, so in a sense, with dice you can't count on average rolls being average any more then them being high or low, unless you get into a lot of numbers, but still if using math was a way to win warhammer most of the time, I for one would not play it at all. I'll admit, it can help in some cases, but basing the game of pure math is a bunch of rubbish, if it was that way it would be two people with stats sheets reading off averages across a table. Once again not trying to sound rude.

Mathhammer can yield surprising results, which can add a whole new tactical dimension, but I agree, there are factors BEYOND simply the statline, as literally every unit in the game has additional rules.

The fact that (my triple checked mathhammer revealed) Lysander will, on average, beat Marneus Calgar in assault does not necessarily mean he's better...except maybe points wise...

General_Marshall wrote:Okay, in theory, but math's not a sure way to test the worth of units.

Statistics are a way of objectively measuring the quality of things in 40k, and comparing them to other things.

If you have another way of objectively determining the quality of units, I'd like to hear it.

Statistics are a way of objectively measuring the quality of things in 40k, and comparing them to other things.

Yep this is true. Math is a tool to judge force balances properly. (I have a squad of 20 guardsmen, I could assault 10 Marines, what will happen? Is the assault worth it? Do I need preparing fire? How much do I need to "adjust" the marines squads size? Can I detach some firepower to it?)
Math is also of good use when creating army lists. (Against what do I have to prepare my army and which tools (units, unit combinations) work best to deal with challenges I have to expect?)

But this math shouldnt reduce itself to strength and toughness. It is important that a unit can fulfil a certain task. If it reliably does this, the unit has quality. And the "task" is not necessarily: "Kill that specific unit". If it were so, we would see armies consisting of drop podding sternguard.

A good example is the ork buggy. An ork buggy has a quite reliable S8-weapon. But the weapon is not the only strength it has. It doesnt seem very durable (AV10 open topped) but in a squadron of 3 supported by a KFF it is very tough for a small number of points.
Now to the task. A buggy is a vehicle. A vehicle is impassable terrain, so if you create a buggy wall in front of a wagon/kan wall the buggy has a big task. He has to keep every enemy unit out of 6" of the battlewagons. Then the danger of getting meltad is close to 0. In addition they can shoot s8 shots on vehicles and block assault lines and movement possibilities. They are the flank guard of a possible offensive assault and buffer against enemy offensives (and a quite effective one I might add due to being a fast vehicle with a 4+ cover save regardless of terrain).
It increases its effectiveness in combination with battlewagons with assault units inside and Kans to provide s6 blast weapons and cc counter. If I would reduce the buggy to just a random unit with 3 tl rokkitz I wouldn't do them justice. Its quality goes beyond just shooting the weapon.

Ailaros wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:Okay, in theory, but math's not a sure way to test the worth of units.

Statistics are a way of objectively measuring the quality of things in 40k, and comparing them to other things.

If you have another way of objectively determining the quality of units, I'd like to hear it.

Yeah, I buy it or proxy it, and play a few games with some friends to see how the unit works. If I like it or its fun, I keep it, if not I don't. More fun that way. Expecting certain resaults consistantlly (even poor ones) from units leads to failure.

One thing many aren't taking into account here is the psychological factor that blobs play. Often when running my 31 man blob i'll get them locked into combat with a unit, and then the opposing general will actually send MORE units into combat in order to save the unit i already assaulted.

Now with my blob acting as a gravitational force it serves its purpose even if it probably gets wiped out, it keeps units tied up for a long duration while i handle the rest of the players army. And there is always the chance that the blob just outright wins via mass #'s.

General_Marshall wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

General_Marshall wrote:Okay, in theory, but math's not a sure way to test the worth of units.

Statistics are a way of objectively measuring the quality of things in 40k, and comparing them to other things.

If you have another way of objectively determining the quality of units, I'd like to hear it.

Yeah, I buy it or proxy it, and play a few games with some friends to see how the unit works. If I like it or its fun, I keep it, if not I don't. More fun that way. Expecting certain resaults consistantlly (even poor ones) from units leads to failure.

The only way of emulating maths' efficiency would be to play a few hundred games where the exact same situation cropped up every game.
Whereas maths takes what, a couple of minutes?
It's not maths vs experience. 40k is a numbers game, therefore, maths applies.

Joey wrote:The only way of emulating maths' efficiency would be to play a few hundred games where the exact same situation cropped up every game.
Where as maths takes what, a couple of minutes?
It's not maths vs experience. 40k is a numbers game, therefore, maths applies.

IMHO, it takes both experience and math to make a decent army/list. Probability and statistics are great for the on-the-fly moments during a game, but the experience of using units should dictate the form of your army list. After reading Ailaros' reports, he pruned alot of units from his list because of bad experiences (Ogryns, Priests, etc.) and opted for units that fared better in his experience.

Probability in a vaccuum is rather pointless.

The other problem, I think, is that some players lean on math hammer too much and expect the law of averages to remain in their favor, which, majority of the time, doesn't happen. Then they're mystified on how a unit could do so poorly when, on paper, they're a competitive unit.

40K is a dice game, therefore, the math only goes so far before your luck decides for you.

Maths is alright to give you a general idea of how a unit should preform, but in practise results will vary greatly.
20v10 on a charge looks good in numbers, but in reality it'll be more like 13v7 charging through cover of which 8 will make it into combat.

It is handy to know how a unit should preform in ideal circumstances, but you'll very rarely get that perfect charge.
So I agree with KplKeegan, both experiance and maths are needed.

KplKeegan wrote:

Joey wrote:The only way of emulating maths' efficiency would be to play a few hundred games where the exact same situation cropped up every game.
Where as maths takes what, a couple of minutes?
It's not maths vs experience. 40k is a numbers game, therefore, maths applies.

IMHO, it takes both experience and math to make a decent army/list. Probability and statistics are great for the on-the-fly moments during a game, but the experience of using units should dictate the form of your army list. After reading Ailaros' reports, he pruned alot of units from his list because of bad experiences (Ogryns, Priests, etc.) and opted for units that fared better in his experience.

Probability in a vaccuum is rather pointless.

The other problem, I think, is that some players lean on math hammer too much and expect the law of averages to remain in their favor, which, majority of the time, doesn't happen. Then they're mystified on how a unit could do so poorly when, on paper, they're a competitive unit.

40K is a dice game, therefore, the math only goes so far before your luck decides for you.

So? Yesterday my Vendetta shot at a tyrannofex. One shot hit, and failed to wound.
Does that mean the Vendetta is rubbish? Nope. I'm still going to take it, because statistically it deals a great deal of damage for what it costs.
I've also shot plasma vets before and had all three plasma guns get hot, die, then fail a morale check and run off the board. Does that mean I'm going to start taking penal legionairres instead? I doubt it.
I think people who poo-poo "mathhammer" probably don't understand probability too well. Which is cool, obviously.

So? Yesterday my Vendetta shot at a tyrannofex. One shot hit, and failed to wound.
Does that mean the Vendetta is rubbish? Nope. I'm still going to take it, because statistically it deals a great deal of damage for what it costs.
I've also shot plasma vets before and had all three plasma guns get hot, die, then fail a morale check and run off the board. Does that mean I'm going to start taking penal legionairres instead? I doubt it.
I think people who poo-poo "mathhammer" probably don't understand probability too well. Which is cool, obviously.

It works the other way round too. Experience doesn't mean "from 5 out of 7 games my melta veteran squad killed more than one vehicle, they are invincible..."- rubbish.
Math is ONE tool to accomplish the goal of winning the game, but not THE tool. Math means only: Is unit X probably strong enough to deal with situation Y. Experience is: "Normally unit X would be strong enough but as dice are dice, lets have some assistance from unit Z in case unit X will fail and if Z will fail too I know that 2 turns later I will have another chance with unit P which is busy somewhere else at the moment and if X will succeed, unit Z can still be used in situation B to assist unit C and so on..."

Math clarifies probabilities and experience create possibilities.

It is one thing to know about your odds. Its another thing to shift your odds in your favour.

-Nazdreg- wrote:A good example is the ork buggy...

Sure, with statistics you still need to set up the parameters, and that can certainly make things complicated, still...

General_Marshall wrote:Yeah, I buy it or proxy it, and play a few games with some friends to see how the unit works. If I like it or its fun, I keep it, if not I don't. More fun that way. Expecting certain resaults consistantlly (even poor ones) from units leads to failure.

KplKeegan wrote:Probability in a vaccuum is rather pointless...
40K is a dice game, therefore, the math only goes so far before your luck decides for you.

... it's much better than a deeply flawed understanding of statistics.

Math is objective. "Oh, yeah, well once in my basement THIS happened!" isn't. A few games is nothing compared to the infinite sample size of statistics. The luck you have in a couple games means nothing to the luck I'm going to have in any given game.

Personal experience is subjective and any statements made therefrom are therefore subjective. Unless I have the exact same experiences that you have, the things you say are meaningless.

I mean, if you told me that you once had a single missile launcher HWS take down three land raiders in a single game, does that mean I should take missile launchers as the great destroyer of land raiders? If you tell me once that you had a squad of conscripts beat the crap out of a death company, should I expect my conscripts to do the same?

Without objectivity, we have no way to have meaningful conversations with people outside of our own frames of reference.

Personal experience is subjective and any statements made therefrom are therefore subjective. Unless I have the exact same experiences that you have, the things you say are meaningless.

I mean, if you told me that you once had a single missile launcher HWS take down three land raiders in a single game, does that mean I should take missile launchers as the great destroyer of land raiders? If you tell me once that you had a squad of conscripts beat the crap out of a death company, should I expect my conscripts to do the same?

Without objectivity, we have no way to have meaningful conversations with people outside of our own frames of reference.

Well math is objective but not reliable in game. You cannot completely rely on a precalculated outcome. Its just impossible. And math is also completely meaningless if the calculations are made out of thin air. (yes, 10 meltaguns in an army will kill a Landraider if concentrated on him. But what happens if the 10 meltaguns never see that landraider?) So even the calculations are subjective. They are based on certain assumptions. If the assumptions work, all is fine, if not, the calculation is worthless. And those assumptions are damn subjective...

You cannot objectively precalculate a game, that is defined by the subjective physical shape of the table and the models and the subjective movement of the units interacting with it and each other.

Ailaros wrote:I mean, if you told me that you once had a single missile launcher HWS take down three land raiders in a single game, does that mean I should take missile launchers as the great destroyer of land raiders? If you tell me once that you had a squad of conscripts beat the crap out of a death company, should I expect my conscripts to do the same?

Without objectivity, we have no way to have meaningful conversations with people outside of our own frames of reference.

Exaggerate more please. No one has made such out-landish claims (at least none that I've seen).

Experience and Math are far more objective, more reliable then straight up, made-in-the-vaccuum statistics. Many players come to the Tactica section to learn from experienced players, not just their math.

... it's much better than a deeply flawed understanding of statistics.

If you'd bother reading the rest of my post, I use Math-Hammer in game, not outside of it.

KplKeegan wrote:If you'd bother reading the rest of my post, I use Math-Hammer in game, not outside of it.

People can use tools without understanding them.

KplKeegan wrote:Experience and Math are far more objective, more reliable then straight up, made-in-the-vaccuum statistics.

What does the word objective mean to you? In my world, a data set taken from a single subject is subjective. Objectivity refers to things which can be true, independent of a specific subject.

Bringing in personal experience pollutes otherwise objective means of communicating with subjective anecdotes. Why is that superior?

-Nazdreg- wrote:You cannot objectively precalculate a game, that is defined by the subjective physical shape of the table and the models and the subjective movement of the units interacting with it and each other.

At no point have I claimed that statistics will tell you what the results of any particular die roll will be. Neither, I should note, can "experience".

-Nazdreg- wrote:Well math is objective but not reliable in game. You cannot completely rely on a precalculated outcome.

I think this misses the core mechanic of 40k, though. 40k is a game where you roll dice to determine the outcome of individual events, and thus the outcome of the game as a whole. Randomness can't be predicted, but it can be understood. Understanding the odds you're playing in a game of chance is the very definition of player skill in such a game.

Everything else in the game from movement to target prioritization, etc., is all about manipulating your environment so that you're more exactly playing the odds that you want to play. To dismiss understanding odds dismisses the core principle to competitive play in a game of 40k. It would be like playing blackjack without counting cards, or like playing poker without knowing the odds of various hands coming up. It is certainly possible to win games of craps or blackjack without knowing the math, but to dismiss the understanding of math as irrelevant in a game of chance is more than a little silly.

Statistics give us a framework in which to objectively assess things in 40k, and be able to have meaningful dialogue about the odds we play when we put down minis and pick up dice. I'd really like to see something that is a better means to these ends.

Ailaros wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:If you'd bother reading the rest of my post, I use Math-Hammer in game, not outside of it.

People can use tools without understanding them.

So I'm incapable of understanding probability during a game? Your arrogance is staggering.

KplKeegan wrote:Experience and Math are far more objective, more reliable then straight up, made-in-the-vaccuum statistics.

Bringing in personal experience pollutes otherwise objective means of communicating with subjective anecdotes. Why is that superior?