If you could replace any of the GW writers and pick any other Warhammer related writer to take his place, which one would you pick and why?
I would replace Mat Ward with Sarah Cawkwell because she seems to have a deep grasp on the fluff of particular chapters and she would be a semi-decent ruels writer IMO.
I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.
rockerbikie wrote:If you could replace any of the GW writers and pick any other Warhammer related writer to take his place, which one would you pick and why?
I would replace Mat Ward with Sarah Cawkwell because she seems to have a deep grasp on the fluff of particular chapters and she would be a semi-decent ruels writer IMO.
Replace Robin Cruddace with a Jokaero that knows its way around the English language...
Castiel wrote:I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.
When Graham McNeil was writing there wasn't any Fluff Massacres I am aware of. I think it's just Ward's writing style which is destroying the fluff. Maybe, they need to hire more writers so the Current writers don't have to rush their Codexes to release anymore.
I would let Phil Kelly do just about everything, and get Andy Chambers to come back and help with fluff and experimental rules. Ward can write rules as long as there's some more group logic going on.
Zweischneid wrote:Just fire Phil Kelly (or keep him busy doing Pirate-game). Insta-improved 40K by about 10.000% right there.
What has he done wrong in 40k in your opinion? The Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar codices are all awesome, and Space Wolves has some problems but is generally a good codex. His fluff fething rules, and his rules tend to be pretty good as well.
Brother SRM wrote:
What has he done wrong in 40k in your opinion? The Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar codices are all awesome, and Space Wolves has some problems but is generally a good codex. His fluff fething rules, and his rules tend to be pretty good as well.
Dark Eldar is likely the worst fluff abomination in the history of 40K. Painfully unfitting looney-toon humour with people chucking black holes and the like combined with boring, action-deprived writing and an abundance of mary-sue characters ("Vect, the most intelligent of all!) forced down the readers throat with bland, expositionary sentences. Cheese-Falcons broke 4th Edition pretty much. Space Wolves nearly did 5th. All his books feature bland, repetitive lists that encourage spam and lack variety, synergy or elegance in army building. Worst of all, his list all encourage playstyles in direct opposition to the backgroud, from gun-line Space Wolves to Greentide Dark Eldar.
I don't think he has written a good Codex yet (and he's been trying for decades).
Zweischneid wrote:I don't think he has written a good Codex yet (and he's been trying for decades).
He co-wrote the Chaos 3.5 dex. That was a great book
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rockerbikie wrote:
Castiel wrote:I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.
When Graham McNeil was writing there wasn't any Fluff Massacres I am aware of. I think it's just Ward's writing style which is destroying the fluff. Maybe, they need to hire more writers so the Current writers don't have to rush their Codexes to release anymore.
Brother SRM wrote:
What has he done wrong in 40k in your opinion? The Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar codices are all awesome, and Space Wolves has some problems but is generally a good codex. His fluff fething rules, and his rules tend to be pretty good as well.
Dark Eldar is likely the worst fluff abomination in the history of 40K. Painfully unfitting looney-toon humour with people chucking black holes and the like combined with boring, action-deprived writing and an abundance of mary-sue characters ("Vect, the most intelligent of all!) forced down the readers throat with bland, expositionary sentences.
The funny thing, is I skimmed through this part and I thought you were talking about Ward's terrible background writing. Go figure.
Brother SRM wrote:
What has he done wrong in 40k in your opinion? The Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar codices are all awesome, and Space Wolves has some problems but is generally a good codex. His fluff fething rules, and his rules tend to be pretty good as well.
Dark Eldar is likely the worst fluff abomination in the history of 40K. Painfully unfitting looney-toon humour with people chucking black holes and the like combined with boring, action-deprived writing and an abundance of mary-sue characters ("Vect, the most intelligent of all!) forced down the readers throat with bland, expositionary sentences.
The funny thing, is I skimmed through this part and I thought you were talking about Ward's terrible background writing. Go figure.
Hahaha.
Personally I think the Eldar, Ork and DE codices were all really good (by the way, the plural of codex is codices, trust me). The eldar one was hardly ever broken, and I started in 4th ed. I can assure you my falcon didn't do all that well all the time as Zweischneid accuses falcons of being cheesy.
Edit: I would replace Ward with one person for fluff and another for rules.
Brother SRM wrote:
What has he done wrong in 40k in your opinion? The Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar codices are all awesome, and Space Wolves has some problems but is generally a good codex. His fluff fething rules, and his rules tend to be pretty good as well.
Dark Eldar is likely the worst fluff abomination in the history of 40K. Painfully unfitting looney-toon humour with people chucking black holes and the like combined with boring, action-deprived writing and an abundance of mary-sue characters ("Vect, the most intelligent of all!) forced down the readers throat with bland, expositionary sentences.
The funny thing, is I skimmed through this part and I thought you were talking about Ward's terrible background writing. Go figure.
Hahaha.
Personally I think the Eldar, Ork and DE codices were all really good (by the way, the plural of codex is codices, trust me). The eldar one was hardly ever broken, and I started in 4th ed. I can assure you my falcon didn't do all that well all the time as Zweischneid accuses falcons of being cheesy.
Edit: I would replace Ward with one person for fluff and another for rules.
Haha, ignore Zweischneid. He's butt hurt because his Grey Knights probably got beat by some kid playing Eldar and now he has a burning rage towards Phil Kelly and anything not written by his spiritual liege.
Anyway I personally think that Ward's rules for the most part are actually pretty good. In reality though, I think we should have all of the games designers stick with the rules and have someone write the background, like one of the current book writers. Would at least make for more interesting codices at any rate!
Zweischneid wrote:Just fire Phil Kelly (or keep him busy doing Pirate-game). Insta-improved 40K by about 10.000% right there.
What has he done wrong in 40k in your opinion? The Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar codices are all awesome, and Space Wolves has some problems but is generally a good codex. His fluff fething rules, and his rules tend to be pretty good as well.
Of those the only real good ones are Dark Eldar, and possibly orks, but orks are so bland..
Eldar was so horribly broken in 4th, and in 5th shows that without the falcon trick it's aspects are worthless, the special characters are laughable, and that the internal balance was just as bad.
Along with space wolves being one of the three most overpowered codex's out to date right now.
All current writers get fired and replaced by people who actualy bother to properly playtest their godawful books.
The rules wouldn't be so bad if they just sat down prior to each edition and went through what the strengths and weaknesses of each codex should be. And then have a peer review of whether the codex fits the predefined limitations prior to releasing the codex. Other than that, it's a game regardless of what GW says, so the fluff can be a bit OTT and juvenile. That's OK. Edit: (nearly) proper use of abbreviations...
Brother SRM wrote:
What has he done wrong in 40k in your opinion? The Orks, Eldar, and Dark Eldar codices are all awesome, and Space Wolves has some problems but is generally a good codex. His fluff fething rules, and his rules tend to be pretty good as well.
Dark Eldar is likely the worst fluff abomination in the history of 40K. Painfully unfitting looney-toon humour with people chucking black holes and the like combined with boring, action-deprived writing and an abundance of mary-sue characters ("Vect, the most intelligent of all!) forced down the readers throat with bland, expositionary sentences.
The funny thing, is I skimmed through this part and I thought you were talking about Ward's terrible background writing. Go figure.
Hahaha.
Personally I think the Eldar, Ork and DE codices were all really good (by the way, the plural of codex is codices, trust me). The eldar one was hardly ever broken, and I started in 4th ed. I can assure you my falcon didn't do all that well all the time as Zweischneid accuses falcons of being cheesy.
Edit: I would replace Ward with one person for fluff and another for rules.
Eldar were extremely broken in 4th. Tri-Falcon Builds completely dominated. It was seriously the top list of it's time.
Funny how quickly people forget. But yah, the game was virtually unplayable for two years or so thanks to Messrs Kelly (until they got some capable people for 5th and fixed Kelly's his botch).
Falcons even coined the term "cheese" for large parts of the hobby.
While I wan't around for 4th edition, I did hear some flame aimed at Tau during that time as well (the infamous Fish of Fury list), so I have to question if the Eldar dominance wasn't partly in fault of the 4th edition rules, not just the eldar codex.
Luke_Prowler wrote:While I wan't around for 4th edition, I did hear some flame aimed at Tau during that time as well (the infamous Fish of Fury list), so I have to question if the Eldar dominance wasn't partly in fault of the 4th edition rules, not just the eldar codex.
You can say that for ever "broken" unit or book. It's not the "Codex" its the basic rules it builds upon. And it is even true to a degree. Some of the current problems with Tau is the general dominance of CC, fast movement and deepstrike. Some of the problems with Nids is their lack of vehicles. Vulkan was likely made without realizing how key Melta was going to be in 5th. But still, to fumble a Codex as badly as the Eldar book did, several years into the edition, one can assume that the author might have had some problems comprehending the rules he was writing (and pricing) the army for.
Zweischneid wrote:Funny how quickly people forget. But yah, the game was virtually unplayable for two years or so thanks to Messrs Kelly (until they got some capable people for 5th and fixed Kelly's his botch).
They still have no truly capable people. All they have are people who suck slightly less than others. If they had capable writers then we wouldn't have books full of, let's call them, "suboptimal" unit choices
and strangely priced upgrades. GW's problem seems to be that they do not playtest properly, that is by actively trying to exploit ( and therefore find the flaws of ) their proposed rules.
Well I remember that Graham McNeill helped write the 4th Ed Space Marine Codex and GW actually looked at tournament stats to help determine which units were popular or not, so he couldve been a good alternative.
I'll be honest, as someone who works with[in] the 40k rules alot, the Codex writers do seem to make a lot of mistakes and have some noticeable infernal balance issues, but I do also think a largely good job is done on the whole, particularly if they don't get to choose the overall design ethos.
As for the OP, I have to say, even despite his reputation, I think Ward does the worst job on the whole. I think the GK Codex is a really poor job overall, fluff and rules. Although that said, the Necron 'dex does seem pretty good all-round.
Durza wrote:
Why is that? Because there was a single build in which you got an extra heavy slot?
No, because the whole system was so cluttered and needlessly convoluted, that most people who didn't spend 6 hours a day to study the thing (perhaps because they played other armies) couldn't make sense of it, 99% of those that DID spend 6 hours a day to study the thing still got their lists wrong and all the confusion, ambivalence and clutter opend the door wide to abuse, obfuscation and cheats of all kind. Chaos 3.5 was the US Tax-Code of Codexes. It brought out the worst in the people as it lend itself to not win by "playing"; but by trying to blindside the opponent with the gazillion of cheap tricks and misuses it allowed.
There's a reason they swung back to "simple is better" after that. They may have gone a bit too far, but their was a reason (including rather vocal fan and player-base demand) to cut down all the loophole-prone madness that was 3.5 above all.
I know 3.5. is a divisive book, partly because the "lesser-is-better" philosophy that was a reaction 3.5. spawned nostalgia for the very mess that animated that later philosophy in the first place. Arguably, its "strength" of being written from the "fluff-end" of the spectrum is also the greatest "weakness" of 3.5.; as it wasn't thought through from the "game-end" of the spectrum. It was a treasure-drove for escapist chaos-fans to dive into full-front, it was an indecipherable nightmare for anyone trying to just game with 3.5. as one book among many in a broader system.
The reason the chaos dex was broken was due to the siren bomb and iron warriors. Other then that, it was a lot of fun. Especially considered to this POS. I dont recall eldar being broken, but skimmers were across the board
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
...and possibly orks, but orks are so bland..
You are literally the first person I have ever seen write this sentence.
Miss the legal blood axe clan list, along with the other, not to mention when looted gear was actually...Y'know, looted.
I mean the 4th edition dex was a good few steps forward (Even if I preferred waaghs! giving double initiative rather than extra distance, as well as losing my big mek bodyguards), but it just doesn't seem truly good and orky yet.
Castiel wrote:I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.
When Graham McNeil was writing there wasn't any Fluff Massacres I am aware of. I think it's just Ward's writing style which is destroying the fluff. Maybe, they need to hire more writers so the Current writers don't have to rush their Codexes to release anymore.
Castiel wrote:I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.
When Graham McNeil was writing there wasn't any Fluff Massacres I am aware of. I think it's just Ward's writing style which is destroying the fluff. Maybe, they need to hire more writers so the Current writers don't have to rush their Codexes to release anymore.
Destroying the fluff? Hyperbole much?
Necrons have turned from the Undead Scourge of the Universe devouring all in it's path to TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAAACE!!!!!
Grey Knights have turned from Marines who fight demon to Elite Marines who can curbstomp Daemons without trying.
They turned Normal Marines from Self-respecting Marines to I WANNA BE ULTRA Marines.
The only semi-decent book he has written is Blood Angels.
rockerbikie wrote:Necrons have turned from the Undead Scourge of the Universe devouring all in it's path to TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAAACE!!!!!
So, they went from a bland universal threat to something with actual personality? I liked the old Necrons, but I would never have started a Necron army, because who wants to have yet another faceless army of Terminators? Net gain.
rockerbikie wrote:Grey Knights have turned from Marines who fight demon to Elite Marines who can curbstomp Daemons without trying.
And they are now a great stand-alone army, as opposed to a few units added into another army.
rockerbikie wrote:They turned Normal Marines from Self-respecting Marines to I WANNA BE ULTRA Marines.
Oh for... the whole 'spiritual leige' thing is only his opinion, it was never mentioned in any of the background material.
The problem is the game development budget was reduced recently, so they are hardly likely to go back to putting 2 people onto a codex or playtesting them in any more detail.
Oh for... the whole 'spiritual leige' thing is only his opinion, it was never mentioned in any of the background material.
.
Yes it was mentioned. In the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Graham McNeill. Ward took it out of the Codex and later referenced it during an interview. And now it's suddenly Ward's invention. Strange, isn't it.
Cruddace - cannot write fluff. Just cannot. Awful writing style. Made TK the worst 8th ed book by far, as he doesnt realise that T8 is still wounded on 2s by cannon, and a 5+ armour save at best means monsters just fall over. Fail. In 40k land he destroyed nids, and made IG into the bland bland borefest that it is now, with woeful internal balance issues. "Bettered" only by....
Kelly - broke 4th edition, literally giving Eldar every exploit possible. From cheap rending to SMF holo'd falcons still shooting the gak out of you you could often go a game without killing anything eldar. WOeful internal balance in that book. Then we get Wolves. Again, attempting to break 5th with cheap, versatile missile spam and armed-with-everything-for-how much? Grey Hunters, banenr of cheese and WG to buff exactly what you want to, and not pay for it where you dont want it like other marine armies. Atrocious internal balance means blood and swift claws became pointless, WGBL is a joke, ditto iron and wolf priests, and everything devolves into a borefest. Yawn. Fairly poor fluff - wolf wolfborn? Really? Literally riding to battle on the mutated wolf forms of their former battle brothers? Shocking. Oh, and created Jaws, an inordinately stupid power, while giving wolves the most consistent psyker defence around, and the best if you take an SC. Then Dark Eldar - crap fluff, yet again awful internal balance (why would you take blood brides, when wyches are scoring and almost as good, and trueborn are just better at what you need - antimech? Why wouldnt you take a 10pt upgrade that doubles the numebr of wounds-everything-on-a 4+ shots your fast skimmer puts out? Archons are a waste of points for what they can do, etc) and led to the wave upone wave of 6+ venom, triple ravager (or double ravager fighter - never the bomber) lists that are about the place. Fire him, or at least beat him round the head with every useless unit he makes, until he gets the hint and gives us variety thats actually worth taking!
Ward - questionable fluff - although a lot of the haters dont have a clue what theyre talking about, frankly. SM codex was solid, even if Vulkan was a far greater multiplier than probably intended, but at least most units have a place. Then blood angels - apart from mephiston being far too good (but then he always has been) the book was pretty good, even if you can field an absurd number of dreadnoughts and the cheap as chips assault squads in razorbacks did make some one dimensional lists - but, again, most of the units have a place in a variety of armies. Fluff wise amusingly some haters blame him for mephistons back story, showing just how little they know of history, tedious "bro fisting necron" meme totally missing the point, and the over use of "blood" was tiriesome, but overall a solid book. Then Grey Knights - pretty well internally balanced, but poor external balance with again, cheap very effective light vehicle spam. Psyriflemen would be fairly costed IF you couldnt also take cheap scoring units in razorbacks - as you would have good anti light vehicle without also being able to take loads of light vehicles.. However again most units have a place, with the notable exception of all but one assassin (seriously, no scout on an eversor? Nothing?) and even he isnt that good. Then you have the fluff, which is where most people flip out - again, mostly unjustifiably so, when you get a sense of the past. Mordrak has very good fluff, Draigo is a microcosm of the imperium of man, the sisters being sacrificed harks back to original GK fluff, etc.
Overally - i'd fire cruddace and kelly, and get ward working with more writrs. Because the most fun codexes out there, with the most viable (as in, can produce a good army, if not uber competitive) codexes under his belt. Just dont mention fantasy daemons to anyone...
I will agree with your post, with the exception of the gray knights Psyflemen, they are just bad overall for how good they are even at their costs. What with being able to ignore shaken/stunned on a LD10 check, as well as twin linked S8 shots. Chaos has to pay a premium for ignoring shaken/stunned outright, and they don't get anything that good to compare with said damage!
I will disagree with most of your post, with the inclusion of the Grey Knights Psyflemen. That's a horribly imbalanced unit and considering Dreadnoughts are the only unit in the Codex (IIRC) that can access Autocannons, he must have known what he was doing when applying Psyammo to Autocannons and pricing them as such on Dreadnoughts.
Even despite his reputation, Mat Ward does write bad fluff. The Sanguinor, Draigo, Chronus and Grey Knights backgrounds are examples of this, even despite the internet/memes repeating these criticisms into excess and oblivion.
Just Dave wrote:I will disagree with most of your post, with the inclusion of the Grey Knights Psyflemen. That's a horribly imbalanced unit and considering Dreadnoughts are the only unit in the Codex (IIRC) that can access Autocannons, he must have known what he was doing when applying Psyammo to Autocannons and pricing them as such on Dreadnoughts.
Even despite his reputation, Mat Ward does write bad fluff. The Sanguinor, Draigo, Chronus and Grey Knights backgrounds are examples of this, even despite the internet/memes repeating these criticisms into excess and oblivion.
I disagree with your relative judgement. Are Psyflemen off? Sure, but far less so than Vendettas or Long Fangs. Could his characterization of Sanguinor, Draigo etc. been done better? Perhaps so. Still a far cry from the needlessly blunt break of continuity of the Swarmlord, the absurdness of Maugan Ra defending entire planets all on his own, the emo-wishfullfilment that is Vect or the ridiculousness of Mowgli-Space Wolves raised by Wolf-mothers.
Noone said Ward's perfect. He's just better then the other current writers.
I don't recall defending Vendettas, Long Fangs, Swarmlord et al., I do recall trying to highlight the flaws of Mat Ward as more than just internet hyperbole however.
Kudos on not actually mentioning Phil Kelly though.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Having just had a friend start as a junior GD....
Personally, out of the current crop you have:
Cruddace - cannot write fluff. Just cannot. Awful writing style. Made TK the worst 8th ed book by far, as he doesnt realise that T8 is still wounded on 2s by cannon, and a 5+ armour save at best means monsters just fall over.
Yes, because everything can get wounded by cannons on a 6+...oh wait, that's not true, because such units don't exist. I don't understand why everyone keeps using cannons to point out a units weakness. Doesn't make that much sense really. I mean everything dies to cannons. Now, if they were wounded by light infantry on a 2+ then yeah, they would be crappy. But they don't. Even S5 which will ignore their armor requires a 6+ to wound, and that's not including the necrotect who's hiding behind it, giving it 6+ regen or the Lore of Nehekara user giving it wounds back whilst at the same time giving it buffs.
TLDR : TK aren't that bad, and stop comparing monsters to a unit that's designed to kill monsters with ease. That's just silly.
Do agree with the points on the SW codex though. I think Kelly just got lazy and dropped the ball.
I standby my opinion that Ward is a terrible writer (though he can come up with some good concepts...which I guess is what happens when you fire a machine gun at a dart board) but his rules are getting a but better. The Necron codex I found is a lot more toned down and reasonable than the GK and BA codices, whilst still being fairly powerful.
I am not that familiar with Cruddace, though I do find his Tyranid and IG codices to be a bit...off. Tyranids seem to be fairly bland and fragile, with only a few viable (though uninteresting builds) and the amount of cheap yet powerful armor IG can field is silly. ...that in his video about the Empire, he came off as a bit of a tool. Just my opinion there; don't know why, I just didn't like him.
I like reading the fluff parts of the new Grey Knights, the Necrons, and the Ork books. Some of my favorite readings. The Chaos fluff was a little bland compared to these.
I'd like to replace them all with people who can write army lists that fit within the context of the actual rules they sell for their games. Tired of codecies full of special game breaking rules that just add clutter and annoyance to the game.
Would also be cool if the rules and the fluff had even a passing connection to each other as well anymore. The fluff used to be the inspiration for starting new armies. Now the inspiration comes from all the annoying special rules in a new codex instead, with the fluff added in as an after thought.
Just Dave wrote: trying to highlight the flaws of Mat Ward as more than just internet hyperbole
It's pretty much 100% hyperbole.
Your username to your post content irony ratio is off the charts. I've seen some bad background from other books but his definitely has to be the biggest load of fanwank I've seen in a long time.
To his credit, Ward definitely looked like he tried. But the problem is that Ward is a try-hard. He just forces stuff down your throat. It makes for crappy writing.
Which Codex would you like me to draw example from?
Take your pick. There is nothing in Ward's books you won't find in equal measure in "non-Ward" books both current and old.
Again, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that Kelly or Cruddace are perfect, but that Mat Ward's design flaws are more than just hyperbole.
That said, I do feel that Draigo has the worst background of any Codex to date.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, 2 points I feel are also worth considering on the topic of Games-Workshop's Game Designers:
1 - Is the notion of internally-imbalanced or flawed Rules Books really that new? Is it just 4th-5th edition that has had these problems, or has it been present pretty-much throughout, but the more vocal internet may make it seem like an issue confined to the current writers only?
2 - The Games Designers do work in a team, so that flaws of one form or another may be attributed to the team as a whole, rather than just one person. However, trying to get people to go from criticising individual writers for being behind the problems with rules, to criticising the team, is a task beyond me.
Cthulus - Cannon arent designed to take down monsters "with ease", well not if you actually want people to ever use monsters that dont have a ward. 6+ regen does a lot against flaming attacks, or, quite frankly, any attack. Its not exactly "great"
TK are the worst of the 8th ed books, in terms of power, by a long way, because Robin really didnt get them or how 8th ed works. He's made quite a lot better job with Empire, but has still failed (griffon - please get some form of save, please!) in some key areas.
Just Dave - how is a psyrifleman, sans razorback spam, "horribly" imbalanced? I'll give you a hint: it isnt. The imbalance comes from the combination of cheap psyback spam AND psyriflemen.
5pts for a power that can be stopped, AND has a chance to fail AND has a chance to damage your vehicle vs 15pts for a power that always works? Not that bad a trade off when you compare what youre *actually* getting, not just amping the hyperbole, again.
Quite frankly Ward at least has a clue about making codexes fun and interesting, compared to boredom Cruddace and "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly
nosferatu1001 wrote:Just Dave - how is a psyrifleman, sans razorback spam, "horribly" imbalanced? I'll give you a hint: it isnt. The imbalance comes from the combination of cheap psyback spam AND psyriflemen.
5pts for a power that can be stopped, AND has a chance to fail AND has a chance to damage your vehicle vs 15pts for a power that always works? Not that bad a trade off when you compare what youre *actually* getting, not just amping the hyperbole, again.
Quite frankly Ward at least has a clue about making codexes fun and interesting, compared to boredom Cruddace and "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly
I'm not going to debate Cruddace and Kelly with you and Zweischneid; I don't have enough experience with Cruddace's works (though Crud-dace isn't a promising name) and I known Zweisch' at least seems to have a very set-in-stone opinion on Kelly's abilities.
Psyflemen are pretty imbalanced. 4 Twin-linked BS4 shots, at Strength 8, 48", on a AV12, fortitude walker, with little competition for FoC at 135pts is a steal. Compare what you get for similar prices: +10pts over a standard Psyfleman for Fortitude - arguably worth 10pts in itself - and increasing the 4 shots to Strength 8. People would still take Psyflemen at 150pts. Increasing 4 Shots from Strength 7 to Strength 8 is far too cheap at 5pts.
Psyammo is well priced at around 20pts for infantry, but far too cheap at around 5pts for vehicles, considering the changes that the strength boost on heavy weapons has. As I said before, considering Dread's are the only option in the 'dex with access to Autocannons(?), Mat Ward must have been aware of the affect 5pts Psyammo could have.
I would've though Strike Squads to actually be under-priced at 20pts, but it seems they're balanced, so kudos for Mr Ward there. Same situation with Terminators, and Paladins and Grand Masters are largely well balanced also.
Again, I'm not claiming Kelly or Cruddace to be perfect or Ward to be rubbish, what I'm trying to clarify is that Ward's issues are more than just hyperbole, his rules aren't that great, but his work also has a lot of good points and is largely well-balanced.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Just Dave - how is a psyrifleman, sans razorback spam, "horribly" imbalanced? I'll give you a hint: it isnt. The imbalance comes from the combination of cheap psyback spam AND psyriflemen.
5pts for a power that can be stopped, AND has a chance to fail AND has a chance to damage your vehicle vs 15pts for a power that always works? Not that bad a trade off when you compare what youre *actually* getting, not just amping the hyperbole, again.
Quite frankly Ward at least has a clue about making codexes fun and interesting, compared to boredom Cruddace and "internal balance, whats that?" Kelly
I'm not going to debate Cruddace and Kelly with you and Zweischneid; I don't have enough experience with Cruddace's works (though Crud-dace isn't a promising name) and I known Zweisch' at least seems to have a very set-in-stone opinion on Kelly's abilities.
Psyflemen are pretty imbalanced. 4 Twin-linked BS4 shots, at Strength 8, 48", on a AV12, fortitude walker, with little competition for FoC at 135pts is a steal. Compare what you get for similar prices: +10pts over a standard Psyfleman for Fortitude - arguably worth 10pts in itself - and increasing the 4 shots to Strength 8. People would still take Psyflemen at 150pts. Increasing 4 Shots from Strength 7 to Strength 8 is far too cheap at 5pts.
Psyammo is well priced at around 20pts for infantry, but far too cheap at around 5pts for vehicles, considering the changes that the strength boost on heavy weapons has. As I said before, considering Dread's are the only option in the 'dex with access to Autocannons(?), Mat Ward must have been aware of the affect 5pts Psyammo could have.
I would've though Strike Squads to actually be under-priced at 20pts, but it seems they're balanced, so kudos for Mr Ward there. Same situation with Terminators, and Paladins and Grand Masters are largely well balanced also.
Again, I'm not claiming Kelly or Cruddace to be perfect or Ward to be rubbish, what I'm trying to clarify is that Ward's issues are more than just hyperbole, his rules aren't that great, but his work also has a lot of good points and is largely well-balanced.
I have to agree with Just Dave here. There are imho and gaming experience, SEVERE pricing issues on a few key units in the Grey Knights dex. Psyflemen dreads being top of the pile. They truly are far to cheap for what they do, how hard they are to stop, and how little competition there is for them. Considering the amount of grey knights on the field at any given points level ( equal to my daemons army, an army that has... difficulty to put it mildly... dealing with Grey Knights) they have ran screaming and flailing away from the "small, elite army o bad aces"you would expect given that was the idea behind the dex.
Now looking at the power armor GKs is again where we run into pricing being off for the quality. And not from assault. Its from their shooting. Between the 2 psycannons the cheap as chips 5 man squads get, combined with rhinos and razorbacks, the horde of power armor is very nearly over powered in the shooting phase, and what survives has to then contend with the, most likely, str 5 power weapons, psyke-out, rad, and psycho broke grenades (seriously, this is the stupidest POS item in the game to date. WTF was the game designer thinking when they allowed this thing into the dex?)
And lets not forget the silly warpquake. I truly think the rule is horrid with the silly 24+" bubble of "feth your deepstrikers." If you reduce the distance to anything greater than 8 inches, the power is pretty much overpowered still, if you reduce it to 8" its a clunky range, if you reduce it to 7" or less the power is pointless and would never get used. So what should we do? INCLUDE IT AND MAKE IT 12"!!! Cause leaving it out would just be silly >.>
Now trying to say all of these powers are balanced by the chance to not have it work or hurt yourself is ridiculous. With lead 9 the odds of any power in question not going off are DRASTICALLY reduced to the point of being negligible and not worth pointing at as one con, to the MANY MANY pros.
And for the record, I like the Grey Knights codex, and love playing against it with daemons. BUT I still see these issues as glaring problems that require addressing in some form or another, (errata anyone?) And inspite of my great like of the codex, I must stand and call it as I see it. And that is unbalanced, under-coasted, and in need of touching up
I quite like Wards fluff. It embodies the epicness that marines are designed to be.
If they were not as epicly depicted I would not like it. I also think he gave the Necrons a face rather than a purpose. They needed it though I dislike the idea of Dynasties and different colours.
Deadshot wrote:
He is certainly better than Cruddace.
Which is like saying that he smells better than a 5 day old corpse rotting in the sun; it doesn't mean much.
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
Yeah, saying one has a choice between Ward and Cruddace to write a codex, is not unlike asking one to choose between two bowls of gak.
One may smell nicer than the other, but its still gak.
Basically you have a choice between an abysmal writer but decent rule maker, and an mediocre writer and a mediocre rule maker (seriously, 100pts skimmer that you can fit nine of in an army and has scout?).
Personally I think Psybolt on NONWALKERS is worth 5pts, especially on Stormbolters and Hurricaine Bolters as it gives another offensive weapon as opposed to defensive. Maybe 10.
Walkers should pay 20 each as niether has any movement/shooting penalties based.on the strength of the weapon. Just Rapid/Heavy and walkers don't even have this.
Deadshot wrote:
If they were not as epicly depicted I would not like it. I also think he gave the Necrons a face rather than a purpose. They needed it though I dislike the idea of Dynasties and different colours.
really.....
Necrons were soo cool as the Lovecraftian souless killers that were slowly curbstomping the galaxy. Now their fluff got basically a complete re-do, just to justify becoming TK in sphess and the new SC. And the fluff idea that their technology is recessing...........
IMO keep Ward away from the fluff department but his skills as a rule-writer are improving (Starting w/ DoC for WHFB to GK)
I didn't like the flatness of Oldcrons. Personally I like the TK in space. I like to come up with ways to relate 40k and Fantasy games into the others storylines.
For example, Elves are Eldar Settlers who forgot their pastand Dark Elves are Eldar who left the DE ranks for being too Craftworld. Lizardmen are the Eldar Exodites' suppossed Dragons.
Although I have to say I don't have a very good opinion of Mr. Ward, I have to admit he has improved a lot, I'll give him that, he has managed to go from "managing to break an edition" to "codex with excellent internal balance, minor pricing problems and controversial fluff.
Why would we want to replace Ward? Only the first codex he wrote exists outside of the top-tier of armies, a tier not entirely populated by his books, by the way.
Space Marines was fine, then some other jokers showed him he wasn't being over the top enough, so he had to up his game.
Castiel wrote:I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.
When Graham McNeil was writing there wasn't any Fluff Massacres I am aware of. I think it's just Ward's writing style which is destroying the fluff. Maybe, they need to hire more writers so the Current writers don't have to rush their Codexes to release anymore.
Destroying the fluff? Hyperbole much?
Necrons have turned from the Undead Scourge of the Universe devouring all in it's path to TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAAACE!!!!!
Grey Knights have turned from Marines who fight demon to Elite Marines who can curbstomp Daemons without trying.
They turned Normal Marines from Self-respecting Marines to I WANNA BE ULTRA Marines.
The only semi-decent book he has written is Blood Angels.
This guys quote looks very similar to something i read in someone elses blog (4chan)....Strikingly identical.
Cruddance took away my Doctrines. Something that I can't get over. They were the way to personalize your army. The Imperial Guard is the most diverse fighting force in the galaxy, and doctrines gave you the liberty to make your army your own. But now they are all mostly the same which, when you look at the idea of the Guard, makes as much sense as a football-bat.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:As I've said before, I still prefer ward, than kelly, than no one else.
Ward at least writes some interesting toys into the army, and kelly can..do well at times
Crudance? Yeah no, keep him in fantasy.
Jervis? Also keep him to fantasy..well cept ogres, keep him away from that too.
I prefer Kelly to Ward. Sure every book has boring spam lists that are no fun to fight and just flat out boring, but Kelly's books don't 100% invalidate entire armies. (let alone, you know, an entire edition!)
SW's are a top tier army, but my Daemons can compete against them. DE may be a pain to chase about when I have no transports, but deep strike, beast type units & wings keep me in the fight.
GK's? Well, 20 guys can pretty much stop me from even showing up on the gakking table!
Space Marines & Necrons are solid books, but BA's are leaning towards OTT by being 'space marines +11', while GK's are an utter farce in terms of their external balance.
Cruddace should stick to Fantasy full stop, Ward needs a tight leash and to be kept far away from the backstory, and Jervis needs to kept locked away before we have another Eldar-DA-CSM tragedy plague us yet again.
Castiel wrote:I wouldn't replace anyone, but I would have rules design done separately from the fluff. One person does rules, one does fluff and then we avoid fluff massacres.
When Graham McNeil was writing there wasn't any Fluff Massacres I am aware of. I think it's just Ward's writing style which is destroying the fluff. Maybe, they need to hire more writers so the Current writers don't have to rush their Codexes to release anymore.
Destroying the fluff? Hyperbole much?
Necrons have turned from the Undead Scourge of the Universe devouring all in it's path to TOMB KINGS IN SPAAAAACE!!!!!
Grey Knights have turned from Marines who fight demon to Elite Marines who can curbstomp Daemons without trying.
They turned Normal Marines from Self-respecting Marines to I WANNA BE ULTRA Marines.
The only semi-decent book he has written is Blood Angels.
This guys quote looks very similar to something i read in someone elses blog (4chan)....Strikingly identical.
Maybe I actually feel this way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Ignatius wrote: The Imperial Guard is the most diverse fighting force in the galaxy,
/sarcasm
7 Space Marine codecies say otherwise.
Personally I would prefer 7 different Guard Codexes than 7 different Marine ones.
Zweischneid wrote: I don't think he has written a good Codex yet (and he's been trying for decades).
Codex: Orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
really.....
Necrons were soo cool as the Lovecraftian souless killers that were slowly curbstomping the galaxy.
Only people who didn't really read any Lovecraft would call the Oldcrons Lovecraftian.
Yeah, the only real lovecraftian elements came from the C'tan (ammoral, powerful gods who consider mortals as insects)...and even then the Chaos Gods are more lovecraftian. They get cults for one thing, and are a bit better in the main rape department.
I think when they say lovecraftian they mean the general psychological horror of it; the feeling of dread and powerlessness at the hands of an incomprehensible alien force. Which did exist to a certain extent in the old Necron lore. But one could argue that this sort of atmosphere could also be found with Chaos or Tyranids.
Psyriflemen, IF you couldnt take cheap as chips psybacks, would not be overpowered as it would fill a need (anti light vehicle) that wasnt met elsewhere in a pure GK army.
135 is costed fine, where it fails down is the internal balance. Constant points comparisons across codexes is also doomed to failure as a means of analysing effectiveness, as it doesnt take into account the place the unit has in the codex, whcih any more-than half assed analysis will tell you,.
Ld9 has an "insignificant" chance of failure? I assume you therefore think lotteries are statistically impossible to win? 7/36 is your basic odds of failure, with 1/36 passing but killing one of your models in the process. These are not "insignificant" odds, especially given the number you are liikely to take in a game. Add in a basic SM Ld10 hood, or Rune priest, and you fail 50% of the times you DO pass. Runes of Warding makes it even worse, and double RoW means you may as well not bother.
Those 2 psycannon for 5 men guys are 24 points per model and arent scoring unless you take a 150 point character, and HQ is the most contended of the slots.
Again - the main issue with the dex is the prevalence of cheap (12pt) scoring units who you take for the 50pt psyback. Thats it. Remove those two and the reswt of the codex drops massively in power. Do you know why theyre in there? Sales, and that wasnt MWs idea. (I know that for a fact, but have no intention or capability of proving it on here, so please treat as hearsay)
Deadshot wrote:
He is certainly better than Cruddace.
Which is like saying that he smells better than a 5 day old corpse rotting in the sun; it doesn't mean much.
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
Basically you have a choice between an abysmal writer but decent rule maker, and an mediocre writer and a poor rule maker (seriously, 100pts skimmer that you can fit nine of in an army and has scout?).
If I ever had to compare the two, at least Ward writes a pretty good rule here or there, compared to Cruddace's horrible, horrible internal balancing within the Guard Codex and basically shattering a better customization system with that gak useful Orders System.
Deadshot wrote:
He is certainly better than Cruddace.
Which is like saying that he smells better than a 5 day old corpse rotting in the sun; it doesn't mean much.
Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler
Basically you have a choice between an abysmal writer but decent rule maker, and an mediocre writer and a poor rule maker (seriously, 100pts skimmer that you can fit nine of in an army and has scout?).
If I ever had to compare the two, at least Ward writes a pretty good rule here or there, compared to Cruddace's horrible, horrible internal balancing within the Guard Codex and basically shattering a better customization system with that gak useful Orders System.
Ah, thank you for that correction. It was late and I was unable to think of a synonym for mediocre.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Psyriflemen, IF you couldnt take cheap as chips psybacks, would not be overpowered as it would fill a need (anti light vehicle) that wasnt met elsewhere in a pure GK army.
135 is costed fine, where it fails down is the internal balance. Constant points comparisons across codexes is also doomed to failure as a means of analysing effectiveness, as it doesnt take into account the place the unit has in the codex, whcih any more-than half assed analysis will tell you,.
Ld9 has an "insignificant" chance of failure? I assume you therefore think lotteries are statistically impossible to win? 7/36 is your basic odds of failure, with 1/36 passing but killing one of your models in the process. These are not "insignificant" odds, especially given the number you are liikely to take in a game. Add in a basic SM Ld10 hood, or Rune priest, and you fail 50% of the times you DO pass. Runes of Warding makes it even worse, and double RoW means you may as well not bother.
Those 2 psycannon for 5 men guys are 24 points per model and arent scoring unless you take a 150 point character, and HQ is the most contended of the slots.
Again - the main issue with the dex is the prevalence of cheap (12pt) scoring units who you take for the 50pt psyback. Thats it. Remove those two and the reswt of the codex drops massively in power. Do you know why theyre in there? Sales, and that wasnt MWs idea. (I know that for a fact, but have no intention or capability of proving it on here, so please treat as hearsay)
Feth it. There's no point in getting into a debate over Mat Ward. I will say two things though:
As someone who creates a lot of rules within 40K, comparisons across Codices is vital, particularly with units as similar as a Rifleman and Psyfleman, and, as someone who creates a lot of rules within 40K, I would never charge 5pts for making 4 TL Str7 shots Strength 8.
Durza wrote:Replace everyone with Abnett and ADB for fluff, and let Ward do the rules.
I prefer authors who pay attention to the previously existing fluff. ADB at least throws us a bone every once and a while to show he's at least aware 40k existed before he started writing it. Abnett doesn't even bother, he just looks at the names of products and makes some gak up.
Deadshot wrote: He is certainly better than Cruddace.
Which is like saying that he smells better than a 5 day old corpse rotting in the sun; it doesn't mean much.
Kind Regards, Vladsimpaler
Basically you have a choice between an abysmal writer but decent rule maker, and an mediocre writer and a poor rule maker (seriously, 100pts skimmer that you can fit nine of in an army and has scout?).
If I ever had to compare the two, at least Ward writes a pretty good rule here or there, compared to Cruddace's horrible, horrible internal balancing within the Guard Codex and basically shattering a better customization system with that gak useful Orders System.
News flash, doctrines and traits were removed in 5th edition. I'm surprised that you're not also crucifying Ward for removing traits from the Space Marine codex. But that'd be too difficult for you, wouldn't it?
Also orders are really cool and if you think they suck then you're probably just terrible with Imperial Guard. It happens.
And again, refer to my above post. Both Cruddace and Ward suck, it's just that Ward sucks a little less.
Vladsimpaler wrote: News flash, doctrines and traits were removed in 5th edition. I'm surprised that you're not also crucifying Ward for removing traits from the Space Marine codex. But that'd be too difficult for you, wouldn't it?
I don't play Space Marines? But when two of my armies suddenly become obselete, because thier abilities have been completely wiped out (unlike Ward who slotted special characters that could give an army Chapter Tactics), I tend to get a little annoyed.
Also orders are really cool and if you think they suck then you're probably just terrible with Imperial Guard. It happens.
You think they're cool. And just because someone has a different opinion on them some how invalidates them as a good Imperial Guard player? Give me the army-wide Sharp Shooters, Light Infantry, and Hardened Fighters over that 12"-6" orders system.
I would possibly reverse my opinion if Vox Casters worked for orders as they did for Leadership in the 4th edition Codex, but that will never happen.
And again, refer to my above post. Both Cruddace and Ward suck, it's just that Ward sucks a little less.
They're both poor writers, but Cruddace is way worse than Ward.
Yu all seem to forget that GW are a marketing company above all, so if they se, for example, Just Dave's Chaos Codex, they may say "Well that certainly does make Chaos awesome! But it doesn't sell Space marines! That's what we want, so nerf those Lashes, FAQ Warp Time and fix the fluff to say the 'The brave Ultras withdrew after inflicting heavy casualties' instead of 'Abbaddon put the hurt on Papa Smurf so bad he peed his TDAlols troll' "
Vladsimpaler wrote:
News flash, doctrines and traits were removed in 5th edition. I'm surprised that you're not also crucifying Ward for removing traits from the Space Marine codex. But that'd be too difficult for you, wouldn't it?
I don't play Space Marines? But when two of my armies suddenly become obselete, because thier abilities have been completely wiped out (unlike Ward who slotted special characters that could give an army Chapter Tactics), I tend to get a little annoyed.
You not playing Space Marines has nothing to do with what I'm saying haha
I seriously doubt that any army that you used totally became obsolete from one Imperial Guard codex to the next. The only thing might have been carapace, but even then you can give Veterans carapace so there's no issue there.
Also orders are really cool and if you think they suck then you're probably just terrible with Imperial Guard. It happens.
You think they're cool. And just because someone has a different opinion on them some how invalidates them as a good Imperial Guard player? Give me the army-wide Sharp Shooters, Light Infantry, and Hardened Fighters over that 12"-6" orders system.
I would possibly reverse my opinion if Vox Casters worked for orders as they did for Leadership in the 4th edition Codex, but that will never happen.
Haha, not everything is in shades of grey. Orders are incredibly useful (brb twin-linking a heavy weapons team with autocannons or lascannons, brb looks like your Marines have to reroll their cover saves against my Melta guns).
For those doctrines, good luck with your 9 point Imperial Guardsmen goals of 2012.
And I do agree with you on Vox Casters!
And again, refer to my above post. Both Cruddace and Ward suck, it's just that Ward sucks a little less.
They're both poor writers, but Cruddace is way worse than Ward.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
You not playing Space Marines has nothing to do with what I'm saying haha. I seriously doubt that any army that you used totally became obsolete from one Imperial Guard codex to the next. The only thing might have been carapace, but even then you can give Veterans carapace so there's no issue there.
182nd Harkoni Warhawks Drop Troops - Totally disappeared from the Codex, so I had to revert to ForgeWorld Elysian rules.
24th Stalking Tigers Regiment (Infiltrating/Tanith-ish) - Infiltrating an entire army. Al'Rahem mitigates it somewhat, but since he has to Outflank, it's good for blobs, but not so good for Heavy Weapon Squads.
Haha, not everything is in shades of grey. Orders are incredibly useful (brb twin-linking a heavy weapons team with autocannons or lascannons, brb looks like your Marines have to reroll their cover saves against my Melta guns).
For those doctrines, good luck with your 9 point Imperial Guardsmen goals of 2012.
And I do agree with you on Vox Casters!
They're useful until the CCS dies, and then you're only means of Bring It Down! and Fire on my Target! disappears, and I do not play Space Marines. I would gladly pay a point or two more for +1WS Infantry and Re-roling ones on anything non-plasma/rifle and be able to use it wholesale without the nanny platoon command squads.
Haha, thank you for affirming my point.
Yes, well. Replace Cruddace with a trained Jokaero (or bring Andy Chambers back) and I'd be happy.
Fire them all, and then hire them back as a team to write each book together.
The way the release schedule is, there is no reason for the books to be written in a vacuum, especially not when there are so few writers to go between them. Ideally, 3 to a book, one person who's main job is to keep the fluff and crunch in line with eachother.
Deadshot wrote:I quite like Wards fluff. It embodies the epicness that marines are designed to be.
If they were not as epicly depicted I would not like it. I also think he gave the Necrons a face rather than a purpose. They needed it though I dislike the idea of Dynasties and different colours.
He is certainly better than Cruddace.
I don't care too much about Cruddance in either direction, as for Ward, thank you, he does seem like he is trying too hard to make the marines seem good sometimes, but I really have to give him a standing ovation for changing the necrons. Honestly the necrons before were terrible, the only unique characters were the Ctan, which weren't even necrons, it should have been codex "Ctan and their robot zombies" before Ward came.
Deadshot wrote:I quite like Wards fluff. It embodies the epicness that marines are designed to be.
If they were not as epicly depicted I would not like it. I also think he gave the Necrons a face rather than a purpose. They needed it though I dislike the idea of Dynasties and different colours.
He is certainly better than Cruddace.
I don't care too much about Cruddance in either direction, as for Ward, thank you, he does seem like he is trying too hard to make the marines seem good sometimes, but I really have to give him a standing ovation for changing the necrons. Honestly the necrons before were terrible, the only unique characters were the Ctan, which weren't even necrons, it should have been codex "Ctan and their robot zombies" before Ward came.
Not to mention how Annoyingly prevalent Necrons were in the fluff. Every single thing was devolving into "C'tan was doing this, c'tan cause this, oh chaos as the big bad? Tyranids evil? hahaha, ALL C'TAN'S PLAN!"
What everyone seems to forget is that most people Hated the necrons fluff when it started getting pushed into the spotlight.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
You not playing Space Marines has nothing to do with what I'm saying haha. I seriously doubt that any army that you used totally became obsolete from one Imperial Guard codex to the next. The only thing might have been carapace, but even then you can give Veterans carapace so there's no issue there.
182nd Harkoni Warhawks Drop Troops - Totally disappeared from the Codex, so I had to revert to ForgeWorld Elysian rules.
24th Stalking Tigers Regiment (Infiltrating/Tanith-ish) - Infiltrating an entire army. Al'Rahem mitigates it somewhat, but since he has to Outflank, it's good for blobs, but not so good for Heavy Weapon Squads.
Don't remember the Stalking Tigers. Did you play them or are you just trying to nitpick? As for the Harakoni Warhawks, yeah they were cool but definitely didn't work with this codex very well. However, you could still stick them in Valkyries or Vendettas. Elysians are more like the Warhawks anyway, so you should be fine.
Haha, not everything is in shades of grey. Orders are incredibly useful (brb twin-linking a heavy weapons team with autocannons or lascannons, brb looks like your Marines have to reroll their cover saves against my Melta guns).
For those doctrines, good luck with your 9 point Imperial Guardsmen goals of 2012.
And I do agree with you on Vox Casters!
They're useful until the CCS dies, and then you're only means of Bring It Down! and Fire on my Target! disappears, and I do not play Space Marines. I would gladly pay a point or two more for +1WS Infantry and Re-roling ones on anything non-plasma/rifle and be able to use it wholesale without the nanny platoon command squads.
I never said you did, calm down haha
Anyway I would rather have 2 guardsmen to your 1 guardsman that gets +1WS and can re-roll 1's. Just keep your PCS behind the main units and you'll be fine, unless you throw them into really dangerous situations.
Deadshot, the internet Codices are usually well conceived, executed and run past others for comments and criticism. If I don't like something in an internet codex (imbalances etc) I can comment and have it changed (within reason).
If a GW codex has a problem (vagueness or simply too good to be true) it will be smeared around with an FAQ or ignored. There was a time when a certain
Spoiler:
Gwar
was writing FAQs as the codices were being released.
Their BL writers are capable of writing damn good fluff. Let the games developers make games and the writers write nice, consistent fluff.
DaemonJellybaby wrote:Deadshot, the internet Codices are usually well conceived, executed and run past others for comments and criticism. If I don't like something in an internet codex (imbalances etc) I can comment and have it changed (within reason).
True, but Games Workshop work within a team/have an entire Games Development Team. Personally, I'd say a team of Developers is equal to a load of blokes on the internet.
Deadshot wrote:Yu all seem to forget that GW are a marketing company above all, so if they se, for example, Just Dave's Chaos Codex, they may say "Well that certainly does make Chaos awesome! But it doesn't sell Space marines! That's what we want, so nerf those Lashes, FAQ Warp Time and fix the fluff to say the 'The brave Ultras withdrew after inflicting heavy casualties' instead of 'Abbaddon put the hurt on Papa Smurf so bad he peed his TDAlols troll' "
Actually, just to interject on this point, my Codex pretty well supports new models (and this isn't a coincidence); Dreadnoughts - who would inevitably become plastic - are much better and have better representation. There's scope for lots of other viable new kits for units such as Cultists, Hell Blades and Defilers, all of whom are also well-represented, and Havocs and Raptors (for former of whom can provide Grenade Launchers and Warpcannons) would also need new kits and are better units, albeit to a lesser extent than Dreads.
Their BL writers are capable of writing damn good fluff. Let the games developers make games and the writers write nice, consistent fluff.
BL isn't much for consistency, Indeed, their greatest strength is that they are not bound by it. Also, writting a 1000-page novel, or even a 100 page story is something rather different than trying to convey key themes in a handfull of sentences. Not that they might be unable to do that, but neither would I think their writing experience would necessarily guarantee better result. And finally, serarating "fluff" and "rules" in the in-house design would most likely only further exaggerate what many consider alreadly a major problem.. the disconnect between fluff and rules.
In many some respects, current fluff by Codex writers like, not least, Mat Ward, is reviled in some parts because they go against some of the wilder tangents of BL and stick closer to the miniatures. Calgar vs. Avatar for example. Seems a fair fight by looking at the model stats. But some of the more whacky, fan-fiction-style writings on the Eldar Avatar have so absurdly exaggerated expectations on the Avatar, that people keep crying foul. Using BL to run the fluff would likely only deepen the problem.
DaemonJellybaby wrote:Their BL writers are capable of writing damn good fluff. Let the games developers make games and the writers write nice, consistent fluff.
I'd like to make a slight remark here, BL "fluff" is not that consistent, for example, in some books they are just like you normally imagine them but in others they backflip and surf on vehicles; and falcons are sometimes depicted as advanced vehicles but sometimes depicted as something a kid with a branch could take down.
I'm a bit biased because I'm an Eldar player but I'm sure there are plenty more examples.
DaemonJellybaby wrote:Their BL writers are capable of writing damn good fluff. Let the games developers make games and the writers write nice, consistent fluff.
I'd like to make a slight remark here, BL "fluff" is not that consistent, for example, in some books they are just like you normally imagine them but in others they backflip and surf on vehicles; and falcons are sometimes depicted as advanced vehicles but sometimes depicted as something a kid with a branch could take down.
I'm a bit biased because I'm an Eldar player but I'm sure there are plenty more examples.
You just referenced C.S Goto.
All of his works are void.
No really, I think GW or BL actually said that his works don't count.
DaemonJellybaby wrote:
Their BL writers are capable of writing damn good fluff. Let the games developers make games and the writers write nice, consistent fluff.
Too bad they can't. Abnett conflicts himself in books only he wrote in the HH series.
You didn't know that GW doesn't have "writers" they just have 1000 monkeys on 1000 typewriters, and every 6 months they pick at random, then apply a "stage name" to the cover. The other 1000 monkeys throwing darts at 1000 dartboards decides what army gets the book.
Codex development IS a team effort thing - one person is lead (sometimes 2, ala 4th ed chaos) and usually has their name up in lights.
Dave - I said JUST comparing points is a naive way to compare units in codexes, bcause it doesnt take account of the value that unit has in that codex. Allied GKTs are worth a lot more to an IG army than they are in a GK book, because they fill a gap the IG army doesnt have. That is an obviously trivial example, but should serve as a good illustration of the concept
If you remove razorback spam then the points cost for a psyrifleman becomes a lot more palatable, as it becomes their only real anti-meta gun platform. Its the fact you can take them AND cheap scoring units in psybacks that causes the most issues with the codex.
DaemonJellybaby wrote:
Their BL writers are capable of writing damn good fluff. Let the games developers make games and the writers write nice, consistent fluff.
Too bad they can't. Abnett conflicts himself in books only he wrote in the HH series.
Yeah, I'm reading through the Eisenhorn books at the moment and it has required a good deal of "that makes no sense! Oh well, just ignore it and enjoy the story" so far.
You just referenced C.S Goto.
All of his works are void.
No really, I think GW or BL actually said that his works don't count.
Not just Goto. All of them. They had a big fight about the IP, with writers noting that what works "in a game" may not work in a "1000-page novel" and vice versa. They finally settled on giving BL "creative licence" to go with their "own take" of the same universe. Dan Abnett's been specifically vocal about it, pointing out that his work is his take on the entire thing, not meant to be taken slavishly as "canon".
You just referenced C.S Goto.
All of his works are void.
No really, I think GW or BL actually said that his works don't count.
Not just Goto. All of them. They had a big fight about the IP, with writers noting that what works "in a game" may not work in a "1000-page novel" and vice versa. They finally settled on giving BL "creative licence" to go with their "own take" of the same universe. Dan Abnett's been specifically vocal about it, pointing out that his work is his take on the entire thing, not meant to be taken slavishly as "canon".
Starting 17:30, 17:40 about he references the BL vs. GW fight, though he does it "politely" for the public, as well as the official BL/GW (and FW) policy ("paradigm") of doing different creative interpretation of the same "core property", rather than the identical stuff, which you get if you freelance for them. (up to about 19:00 +).
