Been looking around for an answer on this and just havent come across it. When you are deploying using the pitched battle rules and you put out a skimmer are you placing the front edge of the base out 12 inches from the table edge or the front of the skimmer's hull out 12 inches from the table edge?

This came up in my local group's last game with Valkyries and no one could seem to find the definite answer in the BRB.

Thanks in advance

All measurements are made to the hull for movement and placement. . When being assaulted assaulting models have to reach the base or hull skimmer.

This means that you have to bring Valkyrie wholly on table, which means you cannot shoot all guns on the turn it arrives as Valkyrie is over 6" long.

Is there a section of the rulebook that defines the skimmer deployment rule about only measuring to the front of the hull?


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Luide wrote:This means that you have to bring Valkyrie wholly on table, which means you cannot shoot all guns on the turn it arrives as Valkyrie is over 6" long.

Yeah we didnt have any issues with that, we were just trying to find the rule about how to measure your deployment when using a skimmer (base or hull)

jkpz28 wrote:Is there a section of the rulebook that defines the skimmer deployment rule about only measuring to the front of the hull?

BGB pg. 71 'Measuring Distances"

Thank you

This is not the case for Valk/Vend/Raven Flyers. Their errata makes them measure from the base for movement. Measure range from the hull, but movement is measured from the base only. This is a change to the rule that governs all other skimmers and is contained in the most recent FAQ on this subject. This does mean that in some cases, the models weapons can be an inch closer, or even off of the board.

Can you tell me the ref# for the change you are talking about in the FAQ, I cant seem to find it.

axeman1n wrote:This is not the case for Valk/Vend/Raven Flyers. Their errata makes them measure from the base for movement. Measure range from the hull, but movement is measured from the base only. This is a change to the rule that governs all other skimmers and is contained in the most recent FAQ on this subject. This does mean that in some cases, the models weapons can be an inch closer, or even off of the board.

This is not true.

The only thing the FaQ did was clarify that a skimmer is only in terrain if its base is in the terrain.

You still measure ranges from the hull as normal for all vehicles, and LoS from the weapons mounting along the barrel, as normal for all vehicles.

DR is correct. The models on the large oval flyer bases (valk/vend, stormraven, DE flyers) have certain exceptions, but for most purposes you still measure to and from the hull.

The exceptions are:
Disembarking and embarking
Contesting objectives
Difficult terrain

axeman1n wrote:This is not the case for Valk/Vend/Raven Flyers. Their errata makes them measure from the base for movement. Measure range from the hull, but movement is measured from the base only. This is a change to the rule that governs all other skimmers and is contained in the most recent FAQ on this subject. This does mean that in some cases, the models weapons can be an inch closer, or even off of the board.

The above is based on an incorrect reading of the FAQ about terrain for skimmers, where you only consider the base. THis does not provide ANY exception to the rules for measuring movement for skimmers to the hull of the model, and should not be taken as a correct reading of the rules.

Luide wrote:This means that you have to bring Valkyrie wholly on table, which means you cannot shoot all guns on the turn it arrives as Valkyrie is over 6" long.

Sure you can. Nothing says it has to come in 90 degrees to the table edge. It can be placed on an angle so that it can claim only 6" of movement for shooting.

Legacy40k wrote:

Luide wrote:This means that you have to bring Valkyrie wholly on table, which means you cannot shoot all guns on the turn it arrives as Valkyrie is over 6" long.

Sure you can. Nothing says it has to come in 90 degrees to the table edge. It can be placed on an angle so that it can claim only 6" of movement for shooting.

If you do that then part of the model is hanging over the table edge. With the wings the model is longer and wider than 6", which means it must move over 6" so as to not be hanging over the table edge.

There's literally no physical way* to move a Valk, Vendetta, or Stormraven fully onto the table using only 6" of movement. They just don't fit.


(*Well, if you took it off its flying stand and stood it on its nose or something, but that's not legit.)

Mannahnin wrote:There's literally no physical way* to move a Valk, Vendetta, or Stormraven fully onto the table using only 6" of movement. They just don't fit.


(*Well, if you took it off its flying stand and stood it on its nose or something, but that's not legit.)

I don't have a Valk to actually try the measurements, but instead of deploying it nose first (or rotated 90 degrees so one wingtip is at the board edge), could you rotate it 45 degrees and have it fit? I guess it would depend on just how much longer than 6" the wings and body/tail of the valk are. It's entirely possible that there is no end-to-end measurement on the valk that is 6" or less.

I have my Valkyrie in my hand, it's about 12" nose to tail with a 10" wingspan.

At 45 degree you're still looking at about 10"

I've tried every measurement, there is no way to fit it on the board moving 6". It's going to have to move 10" minimum.

so after reading the.post I see some say.hull and some still say base...any faq ref# or page #'s yet. thanks

One says base and never replied to being corrected about misunderstanding the FAQ; everyone else is saying hull in refereence to Page 71 under Skimmers Measuring Distances in the BRB.

An image should make it clearer! The minimum space you need is 9" to get a Valkyrie on the board. No chance with a 6" move.

Hinkel wrote:so after reading the.post I see some say.hull and some still say base...any faq ref# or page #'s yet. thanks

The base is only used for embarking/disembarking and contesting objectives. Everything else uses the model itself.
Imperial Guard FAQ First question on page 3.

grendel083 wrote:An image should make it clearer! The minimum space you need is 9" to get a Valkyrie on the board. No chance with a 6" move.

Indeed it does! I figured it was something like that.

When measuring if the vehicle is off of the table, per the FAQ, what do you measure from? Off the table is off the universe. The only thing the FAQ says, to see if the vehicle is in difficult dangerous terrain or impassible, you measure to the base only. These rules overide the rules in the BRB for measuring to skimmers as they are more specific.
Prove that a valkyrie is not on the table after it has moved 6". The only way to show that it is off of the table requires you to measure if it's over top of the edge of the table. When measuring to see if it's over top of something, you use the base instead. Even if it were to be shot down, there are rules to allow it to move the minimum distance to be placed onto the table.
It's really the best way to play the vehicle. It speeds up game play, and is consistant.

axeman1n wrote:When measuring if the vehicle is off of the table, per the FAQ, what do you measure from? Off the table is off the universe. The only thing the FAQ says, to see if the vehicle is in difficult dangerous terrain or impassible, you measure to the base only. These rules overide the rules in the BRB for measuring to skimmers as they are more specific.
Prove that a valkyrie is not on the table after it has moved 6". The only way to show that it is off of the table requires you to measure if it's over top of the edge of the table. When measuring to see if it's over top of something, you use the base instead. Even if it were to be shot down, there are rules to allow it to move the minimum distance to be placed onto the table.
It's really the best way to play the vehicle. It speeds up game play, and is consistant.

False.
You are allowed to measure some distances to the hull.
The tail is part of the hull.

axeman1n wrote:Even if it were to be shot down, there are rules to allow it to move the minimum distance to be placed onto the table.

Rules citation? I'm not familiar with it.

IG.56A.02 – Q: What part of a Valkyrie/Vendetta
model needs to be in or on terrain in order for it to
count as being in or on the terrain piece?
A: While the Valkyrie/Vendetta is on its base, only if the base
is actually in or on the terrain would the model count as
being in or on the terrain (unless both players agree
otherwise) [clarification].
Ref: BA.38A.02, DE.46A.02, GK.37A.02

IG.56A.03 – Q: Can a Valkyrie/Vendetta model end its
movement over friendly or enemy models and can
other models end their move underneath it?
A: As long as a Valkyrie/Vendetta doesn’t end its move with
its base on top of any model or within 1” of any enemies, it
is fine to have portions of the Valkyrie/Vendetta model end
up over other models, provided they physically fit underneath
the Valkyrie/Vendetta model [clarification].
Ref: BA.38A.03, DE.46A.03, GK.37A.03

IG.56A.04 – Q: Can a Valkyrie/Vendetta end its
movement with part of the model hanging off the
table as long as its base is fully on the table?
A: No, a Valkyrie/Vendetta must end its movement with the
entire model over the table [clarification]. Note that this
means it may have to move faster than ‘combat speed’ when
moving onto the table from Reserves.
Ref: BA.38A.04, DE.46A.04, GK.37A.04

axeman1n wrote:When measuring if the vehicle is off of the table, per the FAQ, what do you measure from?

There's no measuring to see if a model is off the table. If part of the model is overhanging the edge, then it isn't fully on the table. The model is used here, not he base.

Prove that a valkyrie is not on the table after it has moved 6".

The Valkyrie is longer than 6" (even with pivoting). Part of the model WILL hang over the edge on a 6" move. Therefore it is not fully deployed.

The only way to show that it is off of the table requires you to measure if it's over top of the edge of the table.

Or you could look at the model. Is any part of it hanging over the edge? If it only moved 6" the answer is a definite Yes.

jkpz28 wrote:INAT FAQ Citations

While good enough for many people, you can't use INAT FAQ quotes to solve a RAW discussion.

I thought the point of the FAQ was to help answer confusing RAW?

axeman1n wrote:When measuring if the vehicle is off of the table, per the FAQ, what do you measure from?

The FAQ says nothing about stopping measurments to/from the hull during deployment. So the 'Measuring Distances' section of the BRB skimmer section still stands.

axeman1n wrote:These rules overide the rules in the BRB for measuring to skimmers as they are more specific.

Correct...and in fact they only overide the circumstances discussed in the FAQ. What the FAQ answers don't do is tell you to ignore the BRB 'measuring distances' part regarding the table edge and deployment.

axeman1n wrote:Prove that a valkyrie is not on the table after it has moved 6"

Once again, read the 'measuring distances' in the Skimmers section. If you only moved onto the table edge 6"...you'll see the hull is hanging over the edge of the table, and is now considered destroyed (per the FAQ).

axeman1n wrote:When measuring to see if it's over top of something, you use the base instead. Even if it were to be shot down, there are rules to allow it to move the minimum distance to be placed onto the table.
It's really the best way to play the vehicle. It speeds up game play, and is consistant

As far as I know everything dealing with the edge of the table either stops models from crossing that line or destroys models partially over the line. Exactly what rules do you think make exceptions for Skimmers to 'ignore' the table edges?

jkpz28 wrote:I thought the point of the FAQ was to help answer confusing RAW?

The Games Workshop FAQs yes. The purpose of YMDC is to discuss the GW RAW. This means the BRB, relevant codexes, and relevant GW FAQs.
The INAT FAQ isn't a GW product. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the work that goes into it.

It is, however, since the INAT FAQ is not written by GW, but a consortium of players, it cannot be used here as an official source. Most people play by INAT FAQ's however, as I stated, they are not "official".

Edit: Ninja'd by rigeld. Again.

Ok, thanks. I thought it was a GW release. Still rather new to 40K.

jkpz28 wrote:I thought the point of the FAQ was to help answer confusing RAW?

It's mainly to fix those issues in the context of a tournament run using INAT rules (there is - at least - a group of US tourneys using it) outside of non-tournament clubs whom also use it.

I won't play it the way I'm saying I've seen it rulled. That was the Pacific mauraders ruling about using only the base, and it is based on the RAW in the FAQ, and BRB.
I know the INAT ruling, and it's a good one. You can't use it against your opponent if it comes up in a tournament that doesn't use the INAT.
The facts are that there is enough evidence to allow people to overhang their vehicles. Get used to having it used against you. If you try and challenge them, you won't be able to come up with solid evidence against it. So it will come down to the oppinion of the TO. I'd say, just play with it like that, and keep your opinions to your self. At least your Sportsman ship will not suffer like mine did when I called the TO over on my opponent.

axeman1n wrote:I won't play it the way I'm saying I've seen it rulled. That was the Pacific mauraders ruling about using only the base, and it is based on the RAW in the FAQ, and BRB.
I know the INAT ruling, and it's a good one. You can't use it against your opponent if it comes up in a tournament that doesn't use the INAT.
The facts are that there is enough evidence to allow people to overhang their vehicles. Get used to having it used against you. If you try and challenge them, you won't be able to come up with solid evidence against it. So it will come down to the oppinion of the TO. I'd say, just play with it like that, and keep your opinions to your self. At least your Sportsman ship will not suffer like mine did when I called the TO over on my opponent.

WTF? No "solid evidence?"

The fact that the Valkyrie is 9" at it's shortest and 12" long at it's longest is evidence enough.

Moving it 6" is insufficient to place the model on the table, and it is destroyed per the FAQ.

axeman1n wrote:I won't play it the way I'm saying I've seen it rulled. That was the Pacific mauraders ruling about using only the base, and it is based on the RAW in the FAQ, and BRB.
I know the INAT ruling, and it's a good one. You can't use it against your opponent if it comes up in a tournament that doesn't use the INAT.
The facts are that there is enough evidence to allow people to overhang their vehicles. Get used to having it used against you. If you try and challenge them, you won't be able to come up with solid evidence against it. So it will come down to the oppinion of the TO. I'd say, just play with it like that, and keep your opinions to your self. At least your Sportsman ship will not suffer like mine did when I called the TO over on my opponent.

No, really, there is solid evidence. The TO made the wrong call.
If the model is overhanging, it did not move completely onto the board. The FAQ shows that these units are destroyed.

The rule is not written in black and white. The TO is free to make the wrong call every time. You are also free to play the game any way you like, including leting your opponent get away with some shady stuff to keep your sportsmanship score frome taking a nose dive.

axeman1n wrote:The rule is not written in black and white. The TO is free to make the wrong call every time. You are also free to play the game any way you like, including leting your opponent get away with some shady stuff to keep your sportsmanship score frome taking a nose dive.

Umm, yea. P.8 of the FaQ disagrees with you:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but
is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Show me where it says that my model is not on the table if it's base is not on the table? If I have a normal skimmer, then I would agree with you, but the rule for Large Oval based skimmers is that I measure to the base when determining what terrain i'm in. Since my base is 100% on the table, my tank is 100% on the table.

axeman1n wrote:Show me where it says that my model is not on the table if it's base is not on the table? If I have a normal skimmer, then I would agree with you, but the rule for Large Oval based skimmers is that I measure to the base when determining what terrain i'm in. Since my base is 100% on the table, my tank is 100% on the table.

See the tail? You'll note it's not decorative, it's hull. I can measure to it for shooting. Are you saying I'm allowed - nay - required in some cases to measure off the board?

Have a rule to back that up?

From the IG codex FAQ from GW:

Q. How do you treat the Valkyrie base for gaming?
Due to its height it seems that it is impossible for a
Valkyrie to contest an objective, or for troops to
disembark/embark normally. (p56)
A. Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the
Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook
with the following exception: For the purposes of
contesting objectives and embarking/disembarking
from a Valkyrie or Vendetta, measure to and from the
model’s base. For example, models wishing to embark
within a Valkyrie can do so if at the end of their
movement, all models within the unit are within 2" of
the Valkyrie’s base.

And from the main rulebook:
Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

Q: If a skimmer on a large oval flying base is wrecked,
and its base is completely surrounded by enemy
models, are all embarked models killed? (p71)
A: Yes.

Q: Can you ram a skimmer on a large oval flying base?
(p71)
A: Yes, you have to make contact with either the base
or the hull.

Is the Valkyrie listed as a skimmer in the IG codex? Then that means the only thing that makes it treated differently as any other skimmer are these 4 very specific instances.

axeman1n wrote:Show me where it says that my model is not on the table if it's base is not on the table? If I have a normal skimmer, then I would agree with you, but the rule for Large Oval based skimmers is that I measure to the base when determining what terrain i'm in. Since my base is 100% on the table, my tank is 100% on the table.

I'm sorry, you're wrong.




"The Movement Phase
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!"

Q: Can models moving out of the way of a tank shock
after passing their Morale test be forced to move off of
the board if that is the shortest distance to get out
from underneath the vehicle? (p68)
A: No, they must move the shortest distance that also
keeps them on the board.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play."


It's pretty bulletproof, the edge is the end of the world. If you're playing with friends feel free to modify the rules as the group sees fit but in a competative game the rules are the rules.

I also just want to point out that the new FAQ makes a distinction between a normal skimmer and one on a large oval flying base. I like to call them flimmers (flyer skimmers). So I would assume these changes only apply to said flimmers and not all skimmers. I avoided using my vendetta/valk for the longest time. By the rules you couldn't even disembark from them unit until the first imperial guard FAQ came out. It's good that GW is slowly fixing the issues with flimmers. There's still no ruleset for how you'd deep strike a squadron of valks/vends. Thankfully that doesn't come up too often.

The rules for measuring to see if the vendetta is off of the board are where? To measure to see where the model is relative to the TABLE/World are ammended in the FAQ that says to measure only the base. The table is not shooting the vendetta is it?
Your rules are not bullet proof. If they were, then it would have been obvious to anyone that placing the vehicle off the table edge once that FAQ about being destroyed if any part of your model was off of the edge, would have destroyed said vehicle. This is a very sore subject to me, as it did cost me a 2nd place showing in a local GT where I was ruled against. Not only did his vendetta show up, but the squad inside got out and obliterated my warboss. The vendetta took apart all of my Deffkopta squads too.

axeman1n wrote: To measure to see where the model is relative to the TABLE/World are ammended in the FAQ that says to measure only the base.

Where are you getting that? The FAQ's have been quoted by multiple people previously in this thread, and those FAQ's just don't say what you're asserting here. The FAQ, in fact, states to use the normal rules for moving vehicles, and then gives a very short list of very specific exceptions. The quote above is a gross over-application of the exceptions provided by the FAQ answers.

A model either is or is not entirely on the board. There is no mechanism for "measuring" that because no measurement is needed. Do you need to pull out a ruler to see if a Land Raider is entirely on the board? Of course not; use your eyes. Same thing with any other vehicle, regardless of vehicle type or size of base.

Note the following FAQ quote:

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base
is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on
friendly or enemy models? (p71)
A: Just the base itself.

This question is specific to the relationship between the model and terrain/other models. It has no relation to the relationship between the model and the board as a whole.

axeman1n wrote:This is a very sore subject to me, as it did cost me a 2nd place showing in a local GT where I was ruled against. Not only did his vendetta show up, but the squad inside got out and obliterated my warboss. The vendetta took apart all of my Deffkopta squads too.

I'm very sorry you lost second to an illegal move.
That story isn't relevant to a RAW discussion.

The tail is very much a part of the vehicle.
Is the tail on the table?

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play."


It's pretty bulletproof, the edge is the end of the world. If you're playing with friends feel free to modify the rules as the group sees fit but in a competative game the rules are the rules.

I also just want to point out that the new FAQ makes a distinction between a normal skimmer and one on a large oval flying base. I like to call them flimmers (flyer skimmers). So I would assume these changes only apply to said flimmers and not all skimmers. I avoided using my vendetta/valk for the longest time. By the rules you couldn't even disembark from them unit until the first imperial guard FAQ came out. It's good that GW is slowly fixing the issues with flimmers. There's still no ruleset for how you'd deep strike a squadron of valks/vends. Thankfully that doesn't come up too often.

That part is for tanks...Even specifies tanks several times.

Basimpo wrote:

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves
perform a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the
board that many inches, measuring from the board
edge as for a normal from reserve. The tank shock is
performed as usual. However, if the tank is forced to
stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the
board then the vehicle, and any embarked units, count
as destroyed and are removed from play."


It's pretty bulletproof, the edge is the end of the world. If you're playing with friends feel free to modify the rules as the group sees fit but in a competative game the rules are the rules.

I also just want to point out that the new FAQ makes a distinction between a normal skimmer and one on a large oval flying base. I like to call them flimmers (flyer skimmers). So I would assume these changes only apply to said flimmers and not all skimmers. I avoided using my vendetta/valk for the longest time. By the rules you couldn't even disembark from them unit until the first imperial guard FAQ came out. It's good that GW is slowly fixing the issues with flimmers. There's still no ruleset for how you'd deep strike a squadron of valks/vends. Thankfully that doesn't come up too often.

That part is for tanks...Even specifies tanks several times.

It applies to any tank shocking vehicle, and the final sentence is just reinforcing what we already know from other questions.

I dont know, id have to agree...you measure from the base for determining if you are on terrain.

Question: If you deep struck that vendetta (ignoring whether or not you can deepstrike it) and its base rolled into clear terrain, and you put it so the tail is over dangerous terrain, would you be forced to roll a mishap?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
big oval base yes, skimmers, no.

Basimpo wrote:I dont know, id have to agree...you measure from the base for determining if you are on terrain.

Question: If you deep struck that vendetta (ignoring whether or not you can deepstrike it) and its base rolled into clear terrain, and you put it so the tail is over dangerous terrain, would you be forced to roll a mishap?

No.

But that's a completely different scenario that the FAQ has ruled on already.

Being in terrain is not comparable to being on the board.
If your tail is hanging off the board, is the vehicle completely on the board?

The base is completely on the board. If you took that base off and set it down on the table, it wouldnt be.

Basimpo wrote:The base is completely on the board. If you took that base off and set it down on the table, it wouldnt be.

So the vehicle isn't completely on the board then?

The base represents the space it occupies on the board, does it not? Furthermore, you do not /have/ to remove the base when the vehicle is wrecked, it could be "glued" in place.

Basimpo wrote:The base represents the space it occupies on the board, does it not? Furthermore, you do not /have/ to remove the base when the vehicle is wrecked, it could be "glued" in place.

No. When shooting, I measure to the hull, not the base.

If the hull is off the board, you're asking me to measure off the end of the world.
If the hull is off the board, the vehicle is not completely on the board, now is it?

Basimpo wrote:The base represents the space it occupies on the board, does it not?

For skimmers, no, the base mostly just represents the thing that holds the skimmer up in the air.

Ah well, i dont play IG so i concede happily
Theyll probably get aerial assault next edition anyway

The base is that hold skimmers up in the air, but for Large Oval Based skimmers, it is now also how that vehicle interacts with the TABLE. No one needs to measure to those parts off the edge of the world, but since those parts are not touching the table, they are never ON the table. Therefore, without a rule to show how the vehicle interacts with the table, it is never completely on the table. The rule does not say, the entire vehicle must be place so that it is entirely over the table. it says that it's entirely on the table.
Normal skimmers substitute the normal rules to allow you to measure to the hull as it gently floats over the table to show exactly where it interacts with the table. Those are the same rules that are FAQ'd to be different for the large flying base skimmers.

You cannot show me that the Vendetta is ON the table unless you use that rule. Even when the whole model is over the table.

axeman1n wrote:The base is that hold skimmers up in the air, but for Large Oval Based skimmers, it is now also how that vehicle interacts with the TABLE. No one needs to measure to those parts off the edge of the world, but since those parts are not touching the table, they are never ON the table. Therefore, without a rule to show how the vehicle interacts with the table, it is never completely on the table. The rule does not say, the entire vehicle must be place so that it is entirely over the table. it says that it's entirely on the table.
Normal skimmers substitute the normal rules to allow you to measure to the hull as it gently floats over the table to show exactly where it interacts with the table. Those are the same rules that are FAQ'd to be different for the large flying base skimmers.

You cannot show me that the Vendetta is ON the table unless you use that rule. Even when the whole model is over the table.

I can measure to part of the vehicle that is not on the table.
In fact, you're forcing me to measure off the table, which is illegal.
There is no rule supporting moving partially on - every time something similar is asked we're told no.

Youre clinging to the difficult terrain rules like its water in a desert. They don't actually give you any support.

Hm, dont you usually measure the closest bit first? why would you measure off the table in the first place? are you trying to measure so you are out of range?

Basimpo wrote:Hm, dont you usually measure the closest bit first? why would you measure off the table in the first place? are you trying to measure so you are out of range?

It's possible that the closest bit would be off the table.

If the nose was angled away from me, the tail would be closer - and it would be off the table.

How is this hard to understand?

"The Movement Phase
Q: Can models move off the table? (p11)
A: Not unless a rule or the mission being played clearly
specify that they can. All good wargamers know that
the edge of the table is the end of the world!"

The oval base is only used for the specific things in the FAQ. Anything that isn't terrain or disembarking uses the hull.

Including off the board.

The base is that hold skimmers up in the air, but for Large Oval Based skimmers, it is now also how that vehicle interacts with the TABLE. No one needs to measure to those parts off the edge of the world, but since those parts are not touching the table, they are never ON the table. Therefore, without a rule to show how the vehicle interacts with the table, it is never completely on the table. The rule does not say, the entire vehicle must be place so that it is entirely over the table. it says that it's entirely on the table.
Normal skimmers substitute the normal rules to allow you to measure to the hull as it gently floats over the table to show exactly where it interacts with the table. Those are the same rules that are FAQ'd to be different for the large flying base skimmers.

You cannot show me that the Vendetta is ON the table unless you use that rule. Even when the whole model is over the table.

It's not how it interacts with the TABLE; its how it interacts with terrain and models assaulting or embarking/disembarking. Also based on your argument, I could mount my base on the nose of my skimmer, forget what my opponent or a TO thinks because the rules do not specifically say how I have to model it. Or even better, attach it to the tail (after some reinforcement of course). Then I can move it on "only 6 inches" and have that nose lascannon magically be 12 inches on the board.

soulbrand wrote:It's not how it interacts with the TABLE; its how it interacts with terrain and models assaulting or embarking/disembarking. Also based on your argument, I could mount my base on the nose of my skimmer, forget what my opponent or a TO thinks because the rules do not specifically say how I have to model it. Or even better, attach it to the tail (after some reinforcement of course). Then I can move it on "only 6 inches" and have that nose lascannon magically be 12 inches on the board.

Concerning the underlined: Not to sound pedantic, but It is how it interacts with the table to a point, because the table is made up of terrain.

Most of the table is clear terrain.

So we have two rules to take into account.

#1 we have a rule that says the large oval base is what is counted for purposes of being in a terrain piece.

#2 we have a rule that says a model that can not move onto the table is destroyed

Thus, if you move on from reserves, and the large oval base is completely on the table but a part of the hull is not on the table the model is simultaneously on and off the table.

So when we consult the two rules in question, one says the model is fully within clear terrain. The other says the model is destroyed because it is not completely on the table.

So the model is destroyed.

If having part of a legal target off the table was legal, then scattering a blast so that it was off the table but still covering a target would have to be legal, especially if the blast was entirely over the vehicle (easy enough to do with a Valkyrie wing and a small blast). Certainly no one is going to argue that the hull is off the table for purposes of being shot, right? Except that rules specify that if the hole is off the table's edge, it is a complete miss and discarded (it's in the BRB, look it up if you want to argue about it).
So the people who are saying that a Vendetta's tail can hang off the edge of the table are also saying that it's okay to make your model a smaller target, which goes against all the rules ever since the beginning of time! (a bit of hyperbole to entertain myself, but still true without tediously going into the specifics)

Let's say that the Vendetta is in the center of the table. What rule wil you use to prove that it's on the table? It's hull is not on the table, unless it's immobilized. How do you show that it is on the table?

axeman1n wrote:Let's say that the Vendetta is in the center of the table. What rule wil you use to prove that it's on the table? It's hull is not on the table, unless it's immobilized. How do you show that it is on the table?

...
Are any of the parts of the vehicle hanging off the edge of the table?

Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

I see 6thED having special rules to deal with big wings. Don't have a LandRaider handy, but can a LandRaider move only 6 and be on the board? ('nid player here)

axeman1n wrote:Let's say that the Vendetta is in the center of the table. What rule wil you use to prove that it's on the table? It's hull is not on the table, unless it's immobilized. How do you show that it is on the table?

The Hull, as that is what we are told to use in the BRB, and we are told to ignore the base for most purposes.

barnowl wrote:can a LandRaider move only 6 and be on the board? ('nid player here)

Yes, but only if it is sideways after moving, as the LR is longer than 6" but it is only 5 ish inches wide.

barnowl wrote:Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

Gonna need a pic to see what you mean. You mean severely nose down? So severely the guns can only draw LOS to the ground in front of it?

I'd let you do that.

I see 6thED having special rules to deal with big wings. Don't have a LandRaider handy, but can a LandRaider move only 6 and be on the board? ('nid player here)

Not sure. I know Monoliths that are in Reserve need to Deep Strike - as they can't move faster than 6" and can't be completely on the board with a 6" move.

rigeld2 wrote:

barnowl wrote:Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

Gonna need a pic to see what you mean. You mean severely nose down? So severely the guns can only draw LOS to the ground in front of it?

I'd let you do that.

I pictured more of a Steep Bank, than nose down.

Actually that might be a cool way to model it.

Going to have to check into that with my Stormraven.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

barnowl wrote:Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

Gonna need a pic to see what you mean. You mean severely nose down? So severely the guns can only draw LOS to the ground in front of it?

I'd let you do that.

I pictured more of a Steep Bank, than nose down.

Actually that might be a cool way to model it.

Going to have to check into that with my Stormraven.

Maybe.

But that opens you up for MFA accusations.

I'd let you do the whole nose down thing, but only if you kept it that way for the whole game, and understood that you'd only be able to shoot at things directly under the model due to the way the (fixed) guns are pointing.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
I pictured more of a Steep Bank, than nose down.

Actually that might be a cool way to model it.

Going to have to check into that with my Stormraven.

Maybe.

But that opens you up for MFA accusations.

I am really not worried about that. When the SR is in reserve it always moves on 24" as the Terminators with Librarian, and the Furioso dreadnought need to be close to the enemy. Then it usually gets shot on my opponents turn, as it draws fire till its stunned, immobile (Wrecked) or destroyed.

I think there were 3 games total, out of about 200 that the SR survived the first round of shooting, and only 1 where it did not get shot down all game.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Maybe.

But that opens you up for MFA accusations.

I am really not worried about that. When the SR is in reserve it always moves on 24" as the Terminators with Librarian, and the Furioso dreadnought need to be close to the enemy. Then it usually gets shot on my opponents turn, as it draws fire till its stunned, immobile (Wrecked) or destroyed.

I think there were 3 games total, out of about 200 that the SR survived the first round of shooting, and only 1 where it did not get shot down all game.

Fair enough. I was more talking about the Valk/Vend MFA if they're modeled in a 90 degree bank (or whatever the plan is)

barnowl wrote:Just to throw a wrenchin the works, you can have a Vendette all the way on the table in 6" by using a steep angle when mounted on the stand.

I say do this...but then you have 45 degree firing arc which points straight down, so the lascannons become useless at this point.

Remember there are 2 types of flying base.

If its a transparent flying base (falcons, land speeders etc) then measure from the hull.
If its got a normal style base (like the raven/valkyrie) then its measured form the base.

Pg 56 of the rule book. vehicles and measuring distances.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used".

Ravens/valkyries have a normal base so the usual method is used.

Pg3 of the rb. Models and units/ measuring distances.

"A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring between 2 models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points.
For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the models hull or body instead".

There is already a distinction between the 2. I think some folk dont know this.

axeman1n wrote:Let's say that the Vendetta is in the center of the table. What rule wil you use to prove that it's on the table? It's hull is not on the table, unless it's immobilized. How do you show that it is on the table?

The rule of "the hull is over the table," just like with a Wave Serpent or Land Speeder. Or any other model with a flying base. Why would this even be a question? Pretty much everyone else understands that when the edge of the board is the end of the world, there isn't an allowance for hanging bits off the board.

kryczek wrote:Remember there are 2 types of flying base.

If its a transparent flying base (falcons, land speeders etc) then measure from the hull.
If its got a normal style base (like the raven/valkyrie) then its measured form the base.

Pg 56 of the rule book. vehicles and measuring distances.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used".

Ravens/valkyries have a normal base so the usual method is used.

Pg3 of the rb. Models and units/ measuring distances.

"A model is considered to occupy the area of its base, so when measuring between 2 models, use the closest point of their bases as your reference points.
For models supplied without a base (like some large vehicles) use the models hull or body instead".

There is already a distinction between the 2. I think some folk dont know this.

Sorry this isn't right at all.
Ravens/Valkyrie do not use their base for all measuring. And they are not considered as occupying the area of the base.
The base of the Valyrie is used for disembarking/embarking, terrain checks, contesting objectives and close combat. Everything else uses the model. See Skimmers and IG FAQ.
They do not use a normal base, but a type of flying base.

soulbrand wrote:

The base is that hold skimmers up in the air, but for Large Oval Based skimmers, it is now also how that vehicle interacts with the TABLE. No one needs to measure to those parts off the edge of the world, but since those parts are not touching the table, they are never ON the table. Therefore, without a rule to show how the vehicle interacts with the table, it is never completely on the table. The rule does not say, the entire vehicle must be place so that it is entirely over the table. it says that it's entirely on the table.
Normal skimmers substitute the normal rules to allow you to measure to the hull as it gently floats over the table to show exactly where it interacts with the table. Those are the same rules that are FAQ'd to be different for the large flying base skimmers.

You cannot show me that the Vendetta is ON the table unless you use that rule. Even when the whole model is over the table.

It's not how it interacts with the TABLE; its how it interacts with terrain and models assaulting or embarking/disembarking. Also based on your argument, I could mount my base on the nose of my skimmer, forget what my opponent or a TO thinks because the rules do not specifically say how I have to model it. Or even better, attach it to the tail (after some reinforcement of course). Then I can move it on "only 6 inches" and have that nose lascannon magically be 12 inches on the board.

Hm, thats a good idea. That wouldnt be modeling for advantage would it, because you are modeling to reduce disadvantage

If the model is over the table, but not touching the table, how can you say that it is "on" the table? If you cannot prove that a model in the center of the table is on the table, then how can you prove that a model at the edge of the table is off?

Sorry Grendel083.

The base of the Valyrie is used for disembarking/embarking, terrain checks, contesting objectives and close combat. Everything else uses the model. See Skimmers and IG FAQ.

Your right about the first part but in the skimmers section measuring from the hull is only used for vehicles with the transparent flying base. The 2 given dont have that.

As for the IG FAQ this only talks about the examples you gave above it has nothing to say about movement.

Also they do use a normal base as it isnt transparent.

kryczek wrote:Sorry Grendel083.

The base of the Valyrie is used for disembarking/embarking, terrain checks, contesting objectives and close combat. Everything else uses the model. See Skimmers and IG FAQ.

Your right about the first part but in the skimmers section measuring from the hull is only used for vehicles with the transparent flying base. The 2 given dont have that.

As for the IG FAQ this only talks about the examples you gave above it has nothing to say about movement.

Also they do use a normal base as it isnt transparent.

Not quite accurate, the rulebook states transparent 'flying base', the flying base is emphasized (not that it's transparent). Also FAQ refers to the flyers being on a Large Oval Flying Base. Not a regular base. This would indicate the Valkyrie is indeed on a form of flying base. The rules and FAQ's are quite clear on what the base is used for. Anything else treat it like any other vehicle/skimmer (as the rules state).
So Hull measurements for movement, never base.

Ok, quick question for those in the Base camp; when you shoot, where are you measuring from (base, weapon, etc.)?

soulbrand wrote:Ok, quick question for those in the Base camp; when you shoot, where are you measuring from (base, weapon, etc.)?

If you really want to blow their mind, ask them about what angle a hull mounted weapon can shoot up or down... being that they're so eager to model their flimmers doing nosedives to get around dem pesky rules..

Not quite accurate, the rulebook states transparent 'flying base', the flying base is emphasized (not that it's transparent).

Thats because its obvious. Its not emphasised because it doesnt need to be.

Also for your perusal? pg56, vehicles and measuring distances.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rules of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. "

They 2 have bases and therefore use the rules for models with bases as this means the normal rules for moving are used.

So we can in fact now remove the skimmer rule from this debate, but the IG FAQ still stands as it doesnt cover movement.

So Hull measurements for movement, never base

Sorry friend always base.

axeman1n wrote:If the model is over the table, but not touching the table, how can you say that it is "on" the table? If you cannot prove that a model in the center of the table is on the table, then how can you prove that a model at the edge of the table is off?

No one except you has trouble determining if a model is over the table or not. Just like every other model with a flying base or stand, we use the term "on" the table to mean "the whole model and it's base are within the infinite box containing the 4x6 two dimensional area defined as the play area or table". Your continued pursuit of ambiguity where none exists does neither you nor your position any credit.

kryczek wrote:

Not quite accurate, the rulebook states transparent 'flying base', the flying base is emphasized (not that it's transparent).

Thats because its obvious. Its not emphasised because it doesnt need to be.

This shows that skimmers use a flying base. Valkyrie is also described as having a type of flying base.

Also for your perusal? pg56, vehicles and measuring distances.

Also for your perusal? pg71, measuring distances.
We are told to measure to and from the Hull as for normal vehicles. There are exceptions listed, movement isn't one of them. So we follow normal vehicle rules as stated.

"As vehicle models do not usually have a base, the normal rules of measuring distances to or from the base cannot be used. "

They 2 have bases and therefore use the rules for models with bases as this means the normal rules for moving are used.

As stated previously it has a Large Oval Flying Base, not a standard base. It also doesn't say to use the base if it has one.

So we can in fact now remove the skimmer rule from this debate, but the IG FAQ still stands as it doesnt cover movement.

So Hull measurements for movement, never base

Sorry friend always base.

Ruling out skimmers means you're left with a vehicle. Vehicle rules state measurements are taken to and from the Hull. We're told what the base is used for, anything else you follow standard rules.
So again, Hull measurements for movement, never base.

Grendle et al I agree with you on all the RAW to do with the movement onto the board but I have a question for you.
Last time I took out my stormraven, I got bitched at because I measured from the front of the flying base to move my flyer around the board.
I drop a line to work out when I move it on but in general after that it is a pain in the ass to check the front due to paralax.
Anyone have a problem with that?

liturgies of blood wrote:Grendle et al I agree with you on all the RAW to do with the movement onto the board but I have a question for you.
Last time I took out my stormraven, I got bitched at because I measured from the front of the flying base to move my flyer around the board.
I drop a line to work out when I move it on but in general after that it is a pain in the ass to check the front due to paralax.
Anyone have a problem with that?

I'll agree standard moving around the board, from a practical point of view it makes no difference. 12" from the base or nose it still ends up in the same spot. I'd have no problem with someone measuring from the base. I use my own Valkyrie alot, and I do that myself.
Deploying onto the board does make a difference, so the model should always be used (as per RAW).

I was just wondering about on the table. I go from the tip of the nose for moving on. The guy seems to have been just TFG.

Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

axeman1n wrote:Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

Gene stealers are never measured to the model. Vehicles are.

axeman1n wrote:Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

Since Geanestealers arn't vehicles they use their base. As the base is a little under 1" in length they can just make it onto the board with a 1" move.
Different rules appying here, not a good comparison.

axeman1n wrote:Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

Axeman please look up the wiki page on logical fallacies.
If everyone but you is going for the hull and you can't show a good raw arguement to counter their raw then you may be wrong.

grendel083 wrote:

axeman1n wrote:Do Genestealers get removed as casualites if they roll a 1 on their difficult terrain to enter play from reserves unless I face them the right way?
What rule are you quoting to show that a model that does not touch the table is on the table? I can't find it in my BRB, but I'll look again.

Since Geanestealers arn't vehicles they use their base. As the base is a little under 1" in length they can just make it onto the board with a 1" move.
Different rules appying here, not a good comparison.

Terminators on other hand would die if they rolled double 1 on difficult terrain test when coming from reserves.
But yes, as grendel said, Genestealers are infantry, not vehicles. And infantry always measure from base, not model.

After looking through the BRB I can find no rule that shows that any model is on the table. The only rules I can find the prove that a model has been placed on the table are those that govern the terrain that models occupy. The table is comprised on many different types of terrain, including clear. Every model has rules to show what terrain they occupy.
The rules for "Large Oval Based" skimmers has been FAQ'd to include using "only the base" to determine what terrain they occupy.
This is the reason that people can say that a model who's large oval base is entirely on the table is considered on the table. This is not my personal opinion. This is one way to read the rules that is logical. It is not a fallacy to use these rules this way.
I am not completely obtuse. I do not play it this way. I understand that there are other opinions, and be the strict RaW, this interpretation does hold water. Therefore I allow my opponents to play this way if the choose. No game as ever been improved upon by a large rules argument in the middle of it.

This is the reason that people can say that a model who's large oval base is entirely on the table is considered on the table. This is not my personal opinion. This is one way to read the rules that is logical. It is not a fallacy to use these rules this way.
I am not completely obtuse. I do not play it this way. I understand that there are other opinions, and be the strict RaW, this interpretation does hold water. Therefore I allow my opponents to play this way if the choose. No game as ever been improved upon by a large rules argument in the middle of it.

So let me get this straight: you have been vehemently arguing a viewpoint that in your opinion is not correct for a month on the basis that it is possible to understand how someone might feel that way?

Yeah. Isn't that what this forum is about. It's about the way rules can be views as written? It's not about Game as Played.
My whole post came about when I read this topic and tried to Prove my own opinion. I could not. I found that while there was a lot of evidence for my opinion, there was no proof.

This shows that skimmers use a flying base. Valkyrie is also described as having a type of flying base.

Thier is a distinction between the 2 ie it aint transparent. Where is it described thus?

We are told to measure to and from the Hull as for normal vehicles.

only for vehicles that dont have a base the 2 examples given do.

pg 56 means that you dont use any of the vehicle rules for moving as it has a normal base, pg 71 is superseded by pg56 which is in turn superseded by pg 12. the 2 examples move like the marine not the rhino, why? because it has a base.

As stated previously it has a Large Oval Flying Base, not a standard base. It also doesn't say to use the base if it has one.

Large oval base not flying. Which IS a standard base. And again sorry but in neither rule is large oval flying bases mentioned. You either have a base or a transparent flying base or none even.

Again Sorry friend always base. In this instance ie moving.

kryczek wrote:

This shows that skimmers use a flying base. Valkyrie is also described as having a type of flying base.

Thier is a distinction between the 2 ie it aint transparent. Where is it described thus?

I don't like quoting directly from the book as it goes against the forum policy, but I feel i'm going to have to:

P71 Measuring Distances wrote:....skimmers have transparent 'flying bases' under their hull.

I've added no empasis as it's already there in the rules. The transparent part is irrelevant, they highlighted the 'flying base'

Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base is used...

Again I've added no words or emphasis, it's already there in the rules.

GW have described it as a Large Oval Flying Base. This isn't something I've added. A valkyrie does not use a standard base. So skimmer and vehicle rules apply.

I don't like quoting directly from the book as it goes against the forum policy, but I feel i'm going to have to:

Apologies, didnt realise, homework added

P71 Measuring Distances wrote:....skimmers have transparent 'flying bases' under their hull.

Ravens etc dont have this so do not follow this rule.

They do however have transparent stalks

GW have described it as a Large Oval Flying Base

Fair enogh, they do indeed.

A valkyrie does not use a standard base. So skimmer and vehicle rules apply.

Where does it say that again?

Am sorry man but its fairly obvious the base aint transparent and i dont think you can take it out of the sentence. On your rationale if transparent is irreleveant why isnt skimmer?

This for me is where the distinction lies ravens etc dont have a transparent flying base so follow the rules for models with a base.

In actual fact they dont use any of the vehicle/skimmer rules in regard to movement at all. Again because they have an actual base.

kryczek wrote:Am sorry man but its fairly obvious the base aint transparent and i dont think you can take it out of the sentence. On your rationale if transparent is irreleveant why isnt skimmer?

This for me is where the distinction lies ravens etc dont have a transparent flying base so follow the rules for models with a base.

In actual fact they dont use any of the vehicle/skimmer rules in regard to movement at all. Again because they have an actual base.

The point i'm making is the rules describe skimmers as having a transparent 'flying base'. The rulesbook highlights 'flying base' not that it is transparent. The Valkyrie/raven is also described as using a 'flying base' in this case a Large Oval Flying Base. Both use a Flying base.
The IG FAQ also tells us to use measuring and distances as per the Skimmers rule. Why would it say that if they treated the Large Oval Flying Base as a standard base? Why would they describe it as a Large Oval Flying Base if it's a standard base?
Also if it was a standard base and followed the rules as such then everything would be measured from the base and not the Hull. But we as shown many times this isn't the case.
And if we want to get really technical part of the Large Oval Flying base is a transparent flying stem. There's more clear plastic used on a Valkyrie's base than on a Waveserpent.
I'm sorry the rules clearly describe the Valkrie/Raven as using a form of flying base, not a standard one.

A valkyrie does not use a standard base. So skimmer and vehicle rules apply.

Where does it say that again?

It says that where it says it uses a Large Oval Flying Base.

I have to applaud grendel083 on persistence and level-headedness.

Not to mention being correct.

Thank you. I do what I can.

Both use a Flying base.

In this you are 100% correct. What you seem to miss is that they are different from each other, large oval / transparent `flying base`.

The point i'm making is the rules describe skimmers as having a transparent 'flying base'.

True but as the raven etc dont have one they dont use that rule for purposes of movement.

Also if it was a standard base and followed the rules as such then everything would be measured from the base and not the Hull. But we as shown many times this isn't the case.

I believe you are wrong here as none of the faq`s talk about movement, specifically on page 56 2nd paragraph of V+MD, this is the only exception to this rule(i can find) as everything else( as you quite rightly pointed out) IS measured from the base.

And if we want to get really technical part of the Large Oval Flying base is a transparent flying stem.

Sorry man i dont buy that. Nice try though.

I'm sorry the rules clearly describe the Valkrie/Raven as using a form of flying base, not a standard one.

Again 100% correct, again different types.

kirsanth: Not to mention being correct.

Sorry man i`m sure your both wrong on this.

So the entire base of your argument is that because the Valkyrie/raven doesn't use a 'transparent' flying base, then all movement should be measured from the base?

Even though we both agree that they use a form of Flying base, the fact that it isn't transparent means that it doesn't count?

@kryczek: Page 56, under "Vehicles & Measuring Distances" tells us we always measure from the vehicles hull.

Page 71, under "Measuring Distances" tells us a "skimmer's base is effectively ignored" with exceptions; measuring for movement is not one of them.

The IG FAQ gives us more exceptions, again, measuring for movement is not one of them.

Why has no one responded to my post about proving the the models are on the table in the first place? Their bases only become relavent once you can prove that it's on the table.

axeman1n wrote:Why has no one responded to my post about proving the the models are on the table in the first place? Their bases only become relavent once you can prove that it's on the table.

Really?
You actually were serious?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kryczek wrote:

kirsanth: Not to mention being correct.

Sorry man i`m sure your both wrong on this.

I am sure you are, but I am ok with you being incorrect.

So the entire base of your argument is that because the Valkyrie/raven doesn't use a 'transparent' flying base, then all movement should be measured from the base?

Yes.

All movement measurements are taken from the base because of the simple fact it has one.

Also in response to your earlier post regarding the base itself. It is a standard base because trygons and dreadknights have them. Granted they aint vehicles but still.

ToBeWilly, Page 56, under "Vehicles & Measuring Distances" tells us we always measure from the vehicles hull.

This only applies to those vehicles that dont have a base as the first sentence shows. It does have a base and therefore the normal rules are used.

axeman1n, Why has no one responded to my post about proving the the models are on the table in the first place? Their bases only become relavent once you can prove that it's on the table.

Hey axman1n, it does matter because pg 3, measuring distances, first sentence. If the base is on the table, its on the table.

I am sure you are, but I am ok with you being incorrect.

Oh i am and i forgive your mistake.

Even ignoring movement, you're supporting the ability to measure off the table (since we measure to hull for shooting).
There's nothing allowing that - indeed that would be measuring past the end of the world.

kryczek wrote:

So the entire base of your argument is that because the Valkyrie/raven doesn't use a 'transparent' flying base, then all movement should be measured from the base?

Yes.

All movement measurements are taken from the base because of the simple fact it has one.

Also in response to your earlier post regarding the base itself. It is a standard base because trygons and dreadknights have them. Granted they aint vehicles but still.

So if the rules described a vehicle as using a transparent Large 'Flying Base', or transparent Small 'Flying base', these should not count either?
The rulebook highlights the word 'flying base' because that's the important part, not that its transparent.

Premise 1: The skimmer rules state explicitly that the skimmer's base is ignored for all purposes, except that if an assaulting unit can't reach the hull, it may instead assault the base.
Premise 2: The Valkyrie, Stormraven, and DE flyers are all classified at Skimmers in their rules.
Conclusion: Their bases are ignored unless a more specific rule tells us otherwise.

The rules for these vehicles, and the main rulebook FAQ, have codified a few exceptions and other purposes for which you do measure to the base.

Movement in general, and whether the vehicle is within the area of play/on the table, is not one of the given exceptions.

kryczek wrote:

ToBeWilly, Page 56, under "Vehicles & Measuring Distances" tells us we always measure from the vehicles hull.

This only applies to those vehicles that dont have a base as the first sentence shows. It does have a base and therefore the normal rules are used.

The first sentence is not asking a question, whether the model has a base or not, it's a statement, "As vehicle models do not usually have a base". It is quite clear in telling us the normal rules for measuring to and from a base cannot be used. Whether it has a base or not is irrelevant. If it is a vehicle, all measuring of distances, is to or from it's hull (with listed exceptions).

Besides which Skimmers have more specific rules telling us that despite the fact that they all have bases, those bases are ignored as a default, except for certain limited and specified circumstances.

Mannahnin wrote:Besides which Skimmers have more specific rules telling us that despite the fact that they all have bases, those bases are ignored as a default, except for certain limited and specified circumstances.

Very true. I believe I said as much in an earlier post, but that part was ignored. So, I was responding to the part that wasn't. I figured you repeating it, was enough. Didn't want to sound like a broken record.

axeman1n wrote:Why has no one responded to my post about proving the the models are on the table in the first place? Their bases only become relavent once you can prove that it's on the table.

There are things not covered in the rules. These include "how to prove models on the table are on the table?," why water is wet?," and "why do dogs lick themselves?" The answers to these questions are all given as so obvious that there is no need to discuss them.

Ok here we go.

Premise 1: The skimmer rules state explicitly that the skimmer's base is ignored for all purposes, except that if an assaulting unit can't reach the hull, it may instead assault the base.

Again you are 100% correct however, again, as the raven etc have a normal base they dont follow any of the skimmer rules for measuring distances. So premise 1 in this example is patently wrong.

Premise 2: The Valkyrie, Stormraven, and DE flyers are all classified at Skimmers in their rules.

Yet again 100% correct. However in this you are only considering only the rule and not the model itself and the base its supplied with.

Conclusion: Their bases are ignored unless a more specific rule tells us otherwise.

3 in a row, well done. Again only for the clear bases not normal ones. Pg 56 quite clearly shows that as the vehicles actually have a base they dont use the vehicles rules for measuring distances.

Besides which Skimmers have more specific rules telling us that despite the fact that they all have bases, those bases are ignored as a default, except for certain limited and specified circumstances.

Your correct here man but the raven etc dont use the skimmer rules(in relation to measuring distances) as they have a normal base. A key difference which people are failing to grasp.

all measuring of distances, is to or from it's hull (with listed exceptions).

Correct and the first exception is for vehicles with a base. pg56 V+MD. Who use normal rules.

Conclusion: Their bases are ignored unless a more specific rule tells us otherwise.

Thier is such a rule, V+MD pg56. As the vehicle does have a base the normal rules for measuring distances are used.

Could every/anyone please re-read that 1st sentence in V+MD(pg56) and tell me how/why they use the vehicle rules when the first sentence tells you you dont use the vehicle and therefore the skimmer rules as the models concerned have an actual base?

Vehicle with a base is less specific than skimmer with a base.
Skimmers with a base (which does not have to be all skimmers) have exceptions, as stated.

kryczek wrote:Could every/anyone please re-read that 1st sentence in V+MD(pg56) and tell me how/why they use the vehicle rules when the first sentence tells you you dont use the vehicle and therefore the skimmer rules as the models concerned have an actual base?

ToBeWilly wrote:The first sentence is not asking a question, whether the model has a base or not, it's a statement, "As vehicle models do not usually have a base". It is quite clear in telling us the normal rules for measuring to and from a base cannot be used. Whether it has a base or not is irrelevant. If it is a vehicle, all measuring of distances, is to or from it's hull (with listed exceptions).

Those are two separate sentences. The first one says vehicles don't usually have bases. Full stop.
The second one says vehicles measure to & from the hull. This is the rule.
It does not say "The following rule is for vehicles that do not have bases."
It also does not say "Unless the vehicle has a base."
The rule for vehicle measurement is that you use the hull, unless explicitly stated otherwise. Is it explicitly stated that you do not use this rule for those vehicles? No? Then you use this rule.

Sorry Kryczek, a Valkyrie/Raven does not use a normal base. In this you are 100% wrong i'm afraid.
The rules describe it as a flying base. So We have treat it as a Vehicle with a flying base.
Also as stated even if it was a normal base (rules say it isn't) the base would still be ignored as per skimmer rules.
Movement, as for all skimmers, is measured from he Hull.

Some things are defined and some are not. Who knew that being removed from play and being removed as a casuality from play would be two different things?
Being on the table is not the same as being over the table. Skimmers count hull being over the table as hull being on the table, unless they are LOB skimmers, in which case, they do not. LOB skimmers only count their base for being on the table.

On the table is the same as "in the terrain of the table." There are rules for in terrain. I say we used those rules, as that is clearly defined, unlike the undefined quanity of "on the table" that you claim is so clear. It's just as clear as being removed from play or being removed as a casuality. In both cases your model is gone.

Please quote an actual rule backing your statement up. The opposition (vehicles use hull) have posted multiple rules to support their side, including (but not limited to):
1. All vehicles measure from hull.
2. Vehicles with a base use the base for a limited number of measurements (that does not include movement)
3. Vehicles on a large flying base, use the base for measurement with a few more things (that still does not include movement).

On or Over, it's a 3D game and their still in play. We can't consisder the edge of the board to only be at ground level.

hey, regarding "hull counts as on the table" - that "nose down" mounting theory was sorta flawed, but why not mount them in a half-roll? You know, banked hard right/left as if in a turn. Guns still firing forward, likely combat attitude - because this thread hasn't gone on long enough.

Randall Turner wrote:hey, regarding "hull counts as on the table" - that "nose down" mounting theory was sorta flawed, but why not mount them in a half-roll? You know, banked hard right/left as if in a turn. Guns still firing forward, likely combat attitude - because this thread hasn't gone on long enough.

It was mentioned - but unless it looked really cool would be MFA.

Plus, you'd only be able to shoot along the table edge you come in on, so not always that advantageous.

Those are two separate sentences. The first one says vehicles don't usually have bases. Full stop.

Ok then, i ask you what do we do for vehicles with a base. Which in my (admittedly slightly outnumbered here) opinion, is what the raven etc are.

The second one says vehicles measure to & from the hull. This is the rule.

100% correct for vehicles that dont have a base or that use the transparent one.

It does not say "The following rule is for vehicles that do not have bases."

I do believe that the first sentence in that section shows that the V+MD is in fact the exception to the rules given on pg3.

The rule for vehicle measurement is that you use the hull, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Unless the vehicle model itself usually has a base. The first sentence is the exception/statement.


I believe that the V+MD (on pg56) rules are the exception(and by extension the skimmer rules) here and that due to the fact that the model comes on a normal 40k base means that it uses the rules on pg3 for the purposes of measuring distances.
I also believe that this is held up by the fact if it uses that rule for measuring it also uses the rule about occupying the area of its base.
Which in my opinion stops all the disagrements over the on the table/off the table/ overhanging etc in one fell swoop as well. It seems to me to be the perfect catch all ruling/explanation for the above debate.
I honestly believe this is the way these particular types of vehicle should be used.

The large oval flying base is a skimmer base, as it only comes with models which have the Skimmer rule. Vehicles classified as Skimmers have a specific rule which tells us that their base is ignored.

This is in large part because skimmers are all substantially larger than the area of their base, and measuring to and from the hull makes measuring to and from them work consistently to how it works for all other vehicles.

-------

The main ruleboom FAQ states explicitly that the edge of the table is the edge of the world, for game purposes.

kryczek wrote:I believe that the V+MD (on pg56) rules are the exception(and by extension the skimmer rules) here and that due to the fact that the model comes on a normal 40k base means that it uses the rules on pg3 for the purposes of measuring distances.
I also believe that this is held up by the fact if it uses that rule for measuring it also uses the rule about occupying the area of its base.
Which in my opinion stops all the disagrements over the on the table/off the table/ overhanging etc in one fell swoop as well. It seems to me to be the perfect catch all ruling/explanation for the above debate.
I honestly believe this is the way these particular types of vehicle should be used.

The bit of plastic it's mounted on makes no difference, it's the rules that count. And the rules clearly show flying base, skimmer rules and measuring from the Hull. As pointed out the rules say vehicles don't usually have a base. If it does, it still doesn't use the base for measuring. If a Landraider came on a 25mm base you would still measure from the Hull.
It would stop argument about overhang if it wasn't wrong. Very wrong.
I would love to move my Valkyrie onto the board with a 6" move, but rules cleary say no.

It is an exception. For all vehicles. Even though it is frowned upon, here is the rule in full.

Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull

The emphasis is mine. Notice what it does not say. It does not say a vehicle without a base. It says a vehicle. All vehicles use this rule, unless explicitly otherwise stated. Is a Raven a vehicle? Yes. Does it have an explicitly stated exception? No. Therefore, it uses this rule. To say otherwise is illogical and obtuse.

Where is the page that says "ON" is equal to "Over"?
I don't care about shooting. Hell, I don't even care about movement.
Measure to and from the hull. (pg 56) I'm talking about where in the "world" it is. "world" refers to Table for those keeping score. (pg.13) The rules for movement have no bearing on this, as they only determine the distance a vehicle can move. (pg.57) Any vehicle can move up to it's maximum move, and how you measure that movement is always with the hull. (pg.56) Terrain affects movement. (pg.57) Once you've completed your move, where is your model. Is it in a legal position?
it's position is determined by the base (pg.3), unless the model is a vehicle, in which case it's determined by the hull. (pg.56) The last bit of that rule was FAQ'd to be different, where the location of LOB skimmers is concerned, one determines it's location using only the base. (BRBFAQ.pg.6)

Not sure what you're asking now. Is the end position of the model legal?
It's a combination of model and base. If the base is in terrain use he appropriate rules. Measure from the model and if you come in contact with the edge of the board it's destroyed. With a combination of rules you'll know if your end position is legal.
If you need to know where in the world your model is, then use the rule on page16 "Line of Sight".

The large oval flying base is a skimmer base, as it only comes with models which have the Skimmer rule.

what you mean like the trygon and tervigon and dreadknight. i know they aint vehicles but still. So with this statment that would mean we measure the dreadknight from its hull as it has a LOFB which only come with skimmers.

Vehicles classified as Skimmers have a specific rule which tells us that their base is ignored

Again wrong, it tells us that the transparent ones are ignored. Not normal ones.

It is an exception. For all vehicles.

Sorry and this is where your are wrong again. It is an exception but only for vehicles that do not normally use a base. Who follow the normal rules on pg3.

Even though it is frowned upon, here is the rule in full.

Sorry man but that aint the full rule, you missed the first sentence.

Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull

This only applys for models who do not usually have a base. Choosing to deliberatly ignore this first part of the rule is illogical and obtuse. your words not mine.

It does not say a vehicle without a base.

i believe that is whats implied in the first sentence. So it in fact does say that just not those exact words.

All vehicles use this rule, unless explicitly otherwise stated

I believe it is, in that same first sentence.

I would love to move my Valkyrie onto the board with a 6" move, but rules cleary say no.

You should man as that is the correct way to do it.

The bit of plastic it's mounted on makes no difference, it's the rules that count.

Sorry man but does make a big difference because it determines what rules it uses.

The vehicle and skimmer rules are the exceptions given for modles that do not have a normal base. These 2 do. So again using the vehicle and skimmer rules to back up the point is wrong i`m afraid.

Actually the LOFB is the oval base plus clear flight stand. And again (in normal games), only skimmers have them.

Where does it says use the base and Hull for determining where it is on the table? Everyone says I didn't provide page numbers, but no one provides the page number that says that for determining the models position is done by using the hull for LOB skimmers, as clarified by the BRBFAQ.pg6.

@Kryczek:
Neither the Dreadknight nor Tygon are vehicles, nor do their rules say they use a flying base. Also the rules highlight 'flying base' not transparent, a point you seem content to ignore.
There is nothing that indicates a Valkrie uses a normal base. Nothing. Even if it did we're told vehicles ignore bases, normal or otherwise.
At this point your entire case is based on ignoring rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

axeman1n wrote:Where does it says use the base and Hull for determining where it is on the table? Everyone says I didn't provide page numbers, but no one provides the page number that says that for determining the models position is done by using the hull for LOB skimmers, as clarified by the BRBFAQ.pg6.

Page71. You use measuring distances from the Hull and terrain checks from the base. What more are you after? Where is the model? Open your eyes and look, the game uses True Line of Sight (Page16). I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this point, that no model truely exists and it's all in our mind?

Hey axema1n, i personally believe that is covered by pg 3, measuring distances.

@grendel083,
I know they aint vehicles, its not about thier rules its about what the model comes with. You need to know that before you even look for the rules.
I dont chose to ignore them, these models rules are determined before you even get to the vehicles section. In my opinion that is done on pg3.
The skimmers rule is where the transparent `flying base` is mentioned but they dont use that or even the vehicle rules for this purpose.
Also as to the entries in the IG FAQ. If you take what they do in there and put them what im saying then that would mean you would use the base for a lot of things done in the movement phase.
Ie:deep striking, terrain effects, dis/embarking, One rule that covers for all things. Thats why i think this way is the correct way to play these types of vehicles.

It just seems neat to me i suppose.

Can you:
a). find anywhere in the rules that say a Valkyrie is on a standard base?
b). if so can you then show where in the rules it says that vehicles, if supplied on a standard base, should measure from them?
I've shown in the rules that a flying base is used, and that we're told to measure from the Hull. It says they don't normal have have a base. What it does not say is measure from the Hull only if there's no standard base. Even with a standard base, you still measure from the Hull.
It does seem neat, and also wrong. Twelve shots from a single lascannon sounds neat to me, but the rules don't support this either.

A Dark Eldar Raider is described as having a large flying base. Not a Transparent Flying Base. Does that mean you should measure from the base as well? Infact there are no vehicles described as having a Transparent Flying Base (only Small Flying Base, large flying base and Large Oval Flying Base). So by your logic there are NO vehicles that use the Skimmer rules for measuring.

Also why does the rules say "...have transparent 'flying bases' under..." ?
It highlights flying base, but why does it not highlight the transparent part? Aparently the 'transparent' is the most important part. Could it be that actually 'flying base' is the most improtant?

kryczek wrote:

Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull

This only applys for models who do not usually have a base. Choosing to deliberatly ignore this first part of the rule is illogical and obtuse. your words not mine.

You know what types of models usually do not have a base? Vehicles. There is no vehicle type "Based vehicle" and "Vehicle without a base". There are Skimmers, Tanks, Fast... Etc. Vehicles are not divided into two categories of based and unbased. No where in the rules is this clarification made. To argue that the rules saying "As vehicle models usually do not have a base" makes such a clarification is simply wrong. Here, let me get a definition for you:

u·su·al   [yoo-zhoo-uhl, yoozh-wuhl]
adjective
1. habitual or customary

Does that say always? Does it say that is the only way in which it occurs? No? Then why are you implying such a distinction is made? If I say I usually drink coke and not pepsi, does that mean I never drink pepsi? If I say I usually walk to work, does that imply it is the only way I ever get to work? The rules say this: "Most vehicles don't have a base. So measure for all vehicles from the hull to avoid this problem." It is simple, straight-forward, and clear. This is the way you want to read them: "Most vehicles don't have a base. So the rules for vehicles without a base are to measure from the hull. For vehicles with a base, follow the normal rules." However, there is no such distinction made in the rules. The first sentence is not the rule. It is an explanation for why the rule is necessary. GW does this all the time. For example, in the C:CSM, under "Terminator Armour" it says "Terminator Armour is capable of withstanding almost any attack." Does this then mean that only the strongest attacks can hurt a model in Terminator Armour? No, it is just a piece of fluff. It has no effect on the rules. Similar to the first sentence here.

kryczek wrote:

It does not say a vehicle without a base.

i believe that is whats implied in the first sentence. So it in fact does say that just not those exact words.

If that is what is intended, then they must be shipping their editing out to third-graders. That is the worst possible way to make that clear. In fact, reading those sentences using the normal rules of English and logic, the exact opposite is implied. Notice it is under the heading "Vehicles & Measuring Distances". Then it says usually. Implying that yes, some vehicles might have bases. However, it then continues on to say vehicles follow this rule. No where does it say the rule only applies to baseless vehicles. To attempt to read such a meaning into the rules is being TFG. If I was playing a game, and someone tried this, and then used this argument, I would pack up, leave, and never play them again. Because they are clearly trying to manipulate the rules to gain an advantage. It's the same as building Rhinos that are 12" tall IMO.

Also, would this not mean that you do not measure from a vehicles weapons if the vehicle is based? That's also in the same part of the rules, which you argue only applies to baseless vehicles. So this means that you measure all shooting done by a Valkyrie from its base, not from the guns.

So by your logic there are NO vehicles that use the Skimmer rules for measuring.

Sorry man i dont know how you got to that conclusion. Obviously the ones with the transparent flying base as it says in the skimmer rule do.

if so can you then show where in the rules it says that vehicles, if supplied on a standard base, should measure from them?

It doesnt say vehicles it says models. All models that come with a base use the rules on pg 3.

Also why does the rules say "...have transparent 'flying bases' under..." ?

Because thats a rule for a skimmer that uses the transparent flying base not a skimmer that has a large oval base.

GW:This kit contains one Stormraven Gunship, a Flying Stem and a Large Oval Base.

The model determines the rules that it uses.

The rules in the vehicle section determine how the models that (in this case) dont have bases (vehicles, rhino`s etc) and those that use the transparent flying bases(skimmers, falcons etc) work in game.
Now i do get that these 2 have both of these rules but because the model has a base it doesnt use them when it comes to measuring distances. As it usually comes with a base. As the first sentence on pg56 says.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
kaisshau,

Also, would this not mean that you do not measure from a vehicles weapons if the vehicle is based? That's also in the same part of the rules, which you argue only applies to baseless vehicles. So this means that you measure all shooting done by a Valkyrie from its base, not from the guns.

I believe that if you had read the rules involved properly you would realise that what you said here is the height of nonsense. If you had read the full rule on pg56 the 2nd paragraph would`ve filled you in. Read up.

kryczek wrote:

So by your logic there are NO vehicles that use the Skimmer rules for measuring.

Sorry man i dont know how you got to that conclusion. Obviously the ones with the transparent flying base as it says in the skimmer rule do.

The rules say "transparent 'flying base'". GW describes the base for a DE Raider on their website as a "large flying base." There is no "transparent" in the GW description. Thus, the rule does not apply to that vehicle. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat540001a&prodId=prod900156a
You argue that the rule should not apply to the Valkyre. The description for a Valkyre says "large oval base and an all-new clear-plastic flying base". http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1900035
Since clear and transparent are synonyms, this sentence can be read as the Valkyre including a base which is "transparent". Thus, under your argument, should it not be that the skimmer rules apply to Valkyres but not Raiders? As Valkyres have a base that is described as "transparent", while the Raiders base is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kryczek wrote:
kaisshau,

Also, would this not mean that you do not measure from a vehicles weapons if the vehicle is based? That's also in the same part of the rules, which you argue only applies to baseless vehicles. So this means that you measure all shooting done by a Valkyrie from its base, not from the guns.

I believe that if you had read the rules involved properly you would realise that what you said here is the height of nonsense. If you had read the full rule on pg56 the 2nd paragraph would`ve filled you in. Read up.

I have read them. The second paragraph states that it is an exception to the rule in the first paragraph. If this rule does not apply to vehicles with bases, how can the exception to this rule apply to them?

The rules say "transparent 'flying base'" because when the rules were written there were no skimmers that came with a large flying base. Once they finally released them, there was no need to errata the rules to say "Some models may have a transparent 'flying base' or large 'flying base'" because the rules already state that for vehicles you ALWAYS measure from the hull, except for the purposes of assault. Thus, when they did FAQ the BRB, they added a few more situations where you measure from the base for the purposes of large flying bases.

Luide wrote:This means that you have to bring Valkyrie wholly on table, which means you cannot shoot all guns on the turn it arrives as Valkyrie is over 6" long.

Time to remind my IG opponents about that...thanks for the observation .

Ok Guys, fair enough.

I`m still not convinced that this is the correct way to play it.
But i will accept it for the next month because i cant be bothered with this anymore.

Grendel083, Thanks for the chinwag

Heres hoping 6th is better wrote.

Ha! True enough. In a month we'll probably start the debate up again about fliers.