The God emperor already has bio engineered gorilla men, why does he need people? Basic average people? Are they a viable army?

I almost feel that this is a troll but Ill give you the benefit of the doubt.

There are only roughly 1000000 space marines. Sounds like alot. However factor in the size of the IoM and you realize that 1000000 doesnt go very far. Your going to need actual soldiers to hold the planets and take new ones. In fact space marines only make up a fraction of a percent of the IoM fighting forces. Almost all battles are fought and won by the Imperial Guard. The purpose of the Imperial Guard is to do what Marines cant. Fight in large scale battles. Which means the Guard will be the ones defending the planets, and taking new ones. The Marines are spec ops shock troops made for lighting raids. The Guard is the line infantry with all the big guns made for utterly crushing the enemy.

99% of the fight are done by the IG.

Another problem with the marines is that they have difficulty fighting in prolonged battles. They can do it but it becomes difficult to resupply them because they need rare weapons and ammo. also losing just one squuad even one death is a big thing to the marines whereas a gaurdsmen dying just isn't a big deal.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/442975.page

There you go

Def not trolling. Just didn't see the purpose... until now. I borrowed the ig codex from a friend.... wow. They are awesome! I almost feel bad now asking this.

aapch1 wrote:The God emperor already has bio engineered gorilla men, why does he need people? Basic average people? Are they a viable army?

There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

SM can also be temperamental. Refusing to do work that is beneath them like guarding a convoy.

The Imperial Guard acts as the standing military for the Imperium of Man. Under Segmentum Command, elements of the Imperial Guard are tasked with a myriad of situations the Space Marines can not (or will not) participate in:

1) Defending entire planets.
2) Guarding Logistical Supplies (Such as Depots, Refineries, and Civil Installations)
3) Holding strategic assets during an invasion.
4) Be the driving force of an attack.

Without the driving force and occupational numbers of the Guard, the Space Marines would be hard pressed to keep any Imperial Worlds outside of thier cloistered systems thier Chapter Monasteries are located. Ultramar wouldn't be a sweeping Empire without the Imperial Guard stationed there.

Their nicknames tell you all you need, the Astartes are the Angels of Death, the Imperial Guard is the Sledgehammer of the Emperor. There are only about a million astartes, they can't be everywhere at once and even if they could they don't have the numbers to fight conventional battles. That is where the Imperial Guard comes in, they act as the main army, they have the heavy assets and number to win wars. A simple way to put it Space Marines are the special forces and the Imperial Guard is the regular army, special forces may be better trained, but they aren't numerous enough nor do they have the equipment to win a war on their own.

They do most of the work and win the war just in time for the Astartes to step in and take the credit.

Joking aside, I think of the Space Marines as filing the "special forces" role while the Guard do everything else. Having said that, the Guard have special forces too. Maybe the Marines are the extra-special forces...the Space Marines have more specialised roles, being more likely to go for a sudden surgical strike or seek out specific threats, while the IG fare better in extended campaigns across a wider variety of operations (um, apart from when they don't, and can carry out surgical strikes and so forth themselves...I do think that there can be quite alot of overlap).

Brother Thomas wrote:There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

Though in fairness sake we have to admit commissars do help guardsmen "perform" like stated above.

Depends on the regiment, really.

To repeat above... 99.99999% of all fighting is done by other arms of the Imperium.

Seriously a 1000 man Chapter does not last long in battle, they cannot afford battles of attrition or grinding victories. StormTroopers and Plasma Special squads can tear through Space Marines.

Space Marines are awesome but not invincible.

To break it down even further:

Something like 90% of the fighting in the Imperium is done by the Planetary Defense Forces/Sectorial Picket fleets.
5% is done by the Imperial Guard supporting those PDFs.
3% is done by the Imperial Navy, effectively ending wars before they begin.
1% is done by the Astartes supporting the PDF/Imperial Guard or operating by themselves.
1% is done by the Sisters of Battle supporting the PDF/Imperial Guard or operating by themselves.


The Imperial Guard, believe it or not, is actually an "elite" force. Their lives are not spent carelessly despite what Chenkov makes people think.

More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

jgehunter wrote:Though in fairness sake we have to admit commissars do help guardsmen "perform" like stated above.

Most Commissar's would, I am sure, like to stay alive, no matter how fierce & zealous their devotion to the Emperor is and summarily executing Guardsmen is a quick route to the grave - if the enemy don't get you the Guardsmen most definitely will - afterall, it's so very easy to fumble a grenade or to accidentally hit a target 'moving across your sights' at the 'wrong time' *wink wink*

There are other ways to inspire the troops to fight on but each Commissar must find his own way of doing it. Unless he does want to be a complete authoritarian by the book summary execution type, in which case his days are numbered because he'll make enemies out of the Guardsmen they fight alongside as well as whoever they're fighting.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Most Commissar's would, I am sure, like to stay alive, no matter how fierce & zealous their devotion to the Emperor is and summarily executing Guardsmen is a quick route to the grave - if the enemy don't get you the Guardsmen most definitely will - afterall, it's so very easy to fumble a grenade or to accidentally hit a target 'moving across your sights' at the 'wrong time' *wink wink*

There are other ways to inspire the troops to fight on but each Commissar must find his own way of doing it. Unless he does want to be a complete authoritarian by the book summary execution type, in which case his days are numbered because he'll make enemies out of the Guardsmen they fight alongside as well as whoever they're fighting.

I wasn't talking about the commissars constantly executing men, but their mere presence and the stories told about them would inspire respect (A bit like with Ciaphas Cain)

Joey wrote:More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

^This

Joey wrote:More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

To be fair, without the Space Marines leaping headlong into an enemy held stronghold, gimping the leadership (some of the time), the wars would take forever to end. And telling Space Marine fables make all the Conscripts want to become big strong heroes in the Imperial Guard so that one day, he might get to shoot the nastier ones in the face.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

All I heard was "Wah, The Astartes are way more badass"

KplKeegan wrote:

Joey wrote:More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

To be fair, without the Space Marines leaping headlong into an enemy held stronghold, gimping the leadership (some of the time), the wars would take forever to end. And telling Space Marine fables make all the Conscripts want to become big strong heroes in the Imperial Guard so that one day, he might get to shoot the nastier ones in the face.

Then again, wars of attrition are what most guard regiments specialize in, and holding the line forever isn't bad compared to losing outright in an assault.

Brother Thomas wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

All I heard was "Wah, The Astartes are way more badass"

Really? What I heard was "Courage is the overcoming of fear, not the lack of it,"

moom241 wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:There is not enough Adeptus Astartes to defend the whole galaxy at once, so they recruited trillions of weak, lesser men to hold off the enemy forces till they get there.

Those men & women who make up the Imperial Guard are the best each planet has to offer. Without the equipment, armour or enhancements of the Astartes, they've more balls than the Space Marines do - the Astartes are psychologicaly altered & conditioned so that they do not feel fear - Guardsmen willingly stand up to the nastiest things the Galaxy can throw at them with just their regular human bodies, their flak armour & their lasguns to defend themselves with. To overcome the natural instinct to flee, to muster enough courage to conquer their fear and to hold the line despite having their worst nightmares charging down on them - makes the Astartes look weak by comparison and makes each Guardsman look as though they have balls of adamantium.

All I heard was "Wah, The Astartes are way more badass"

Really? What I heard was "Courage is the overcoming of fear, not the lack of it,"

I heard "Aw man, I'm gonna make false accusations and then defend them to the death and then cry a little. Theres been plenty of times Astartes have felt fear, just not that often. Quit hating because the Astartes are superior!!"

Brother Thomas wrote:All I heard was "Wah, The Astartes are way more badass"

Ah, of course. Responding to someones posts & the points they raise with a reponse like this is clearly the way to start a good discussion about the mentality & psychology of both humans & the Astartes and how they compare - one group feel fear and, through great courage, overcome that emotion to do what they need to do to survive, compared to the second group who just don't feel fear.

So to continue in the vein of responses you have decided to post;

Ahm.

All I heard was "Wah," - think I've got the hang of this so far- "I can not create a comprehensive argument and thus will hide behind blind fanboyism of Space Marines."

Space marines are useful, but in all honesty unneeded. They number less then a million at any given time, and while yes they are powerful ,skilled with loads of weapons a Guard Unit can do what they do , only cheaper.

You throw some vets or well trained Guardsmen in power armor and they are not all that far, power wise from Sm's. Now if SM had numbers , I mean huge numbers it might just matter, they do not however, so it does not.

To die

Honestly the purpose is the hold the IoM together. Without the guard the ioM would not last five years.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Honestly the purpose is the hold the IoM together. Without the guard the ioM would not last five years.

This...
SM number but a million.
Guardsmen are uncounted in their numbers and unequaled in their firepower.
The Imperium is held together by the heros of the Imperial Guard.

GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Imagine the combined might of the Astartes and Guard as a spear. The Astartes are the very tip. The Guard are the rest of it.

Sturmtruppen wrote:Imagine the combined might of the Astartes and Guard as a spear. The Astartes are the very tip. The Guard are the rest of it.

And the man holding the spear, plus two other guys with tip-less spears.

But seriously, the guard are the glue that's barely holding the Imperium together. And IG are glue, then Astartes are rubber cement.

I've lost this metaphor completely.

Harriticus wrote:GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Propaganda and nothing more. Every single SM in exsistance could die all at once, it would have zero lasting effect upon the IoM. Other units would fill that role, Guard or SoB can easily do what SM do. Now if even 1/4 of the Guard vanished, all the space marines in the IoM would not handle what they do.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Harriticus wrote:GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Propaganda and nothing more. Every single SM in exsistance could die all at once, it would have zero lasting effect upon the IoM. Other units would fill that role, Guard or SoB can easily do what SM do. Now if even 1/4 of the Guard vanished, all the space marines in the IoM would not handle what they do.

Um, no?

The space marines are the interceptors of the IoM. Different job. Guard and sisters don't even got their own fleets so they can't move on their own. Makes it a bit impossible to stop threats without lenghtening the response time to a level where the enemy is long gone when you arrive.
The sisters are less numerous of you believe GW and the Guard can't handle the rapid assaults marines may perform.
I'll never get why anyone assumes the combined effort of the IoM wouldn't suffer if one of its tools is gone.

The duty of the Guard is to hold the dominion of mankind and to deal with the populace. Thier strenght is their number and superior firepower.
It is not organized or equipped to replace any other force of the IoM.

1hadhq wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Harriticus wrote:GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Propaganda and nothing more. Every single SM in exsistance could die all at once, it would have zero lasting effect upon the IoM. Other units would fill that role, Guard or SoB can easily do what SM do. Now if even 1/4 of the Guard vanished, all the space marines in the IoM would not handle what they do.

Um, no?

The space marines are the interceptors of the IoM. Different job. Guard and sisters don't even got their own fleets so they can't move on their own. Makes it a bit impossible to stop threats without lenghtening the response time to a level where the enemy is long gone when you arrive.
The sisters are less numerous of you believe GW and the Guard can't handle the rapid assaults marines may perform.
I'll never get why anyone assumes the combined effort of the IoM wouldn't suffer if one of its tools is gone.

The duty of the Guard is to hold the dominion of mankind and to deal with the populace. Thier strenght is their number and superior firepower.
It is not organized or equipped to replace any other force of the IoM.

So they do not have a fleet, thats what the navy is for. The SM really do nothing that can not be filled by other people. The guard givin the SM tech level can do the very same type of assaults. You place an "interceptor" regiment with its own dedicated space fleet and there you go. The SM are useful, but they are also very, very replaceable.

Without the Astartes, the Imperium would not exist as it does today. Or in the future. Whatever.

They initially led the crusade which united the lost human colonies. Of course by the end, they needed the help of the Imperial Army, but without them, the Imperium would be at about half it's size.

I agree, they shaped things, I simply said in the current setting time line they are not "Must have" Now SM legions, would have been something scary and effective, but with a limit at roughly 1 million they do nothing someone else can not do.

True enough. Honestly, I think the only difference they provide in current time is a quicker, or slower victory.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Harriticus wrote:GW fluff actually states several times that the IoM would perish without the Astartes. They need to explain why exactly a bit better....

Propaganda and nothing more. Every single SM in exsistance could die all at once, it would have zero lasting effect upon the IoM. Other units would fill that role, Guard or SoB can easily do what SM do. Now if even 1/4 of the Guard vanished, all the space marines in the IoM would not handle what they do.

I wouldn't go this far. I would say war efforts on Armageddon, the 13th Black Crusade, and against the Tyranids would all collapse and this would cause quite the trouble indeed.

I disagree, it would be a sitback or may speed things that are gonna happen up. But SM simply do not have the numbers to make any lasting effect any other group could not do as well.

Hunterindarkness wrote:I disagree, it would be a sitback or may speed things that are gonna happen up. But SM simply do not have the numbers to make any lasting effect any other group could not do as well.

I had simply meant individual battles, not the fate of the Imperium itself. A legion could speed up, and possibly turn the tide of a minor campaign, but there simply aren't enough to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

aapch1 wrote:Are they a viable army?

The Imperial Guard, and its Horus Heresy equivalent, does more and has done more for the Imperium than the entirety of Space Marines combined.

Hunterindarkness wrote:


So they do not have a fleet, thats what the navy is for. The SM really do nothing that can not be filled by other people. The guard givin the SM tech level can do the very same type of assaults. You place an "interceptor" regiment with its own dedicated space fleet and there you go. The SM are useful, but they are also very, very replaceable.

You seem to miss the point of the marines.
The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.
Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?
Marines, who are gen-enhanced humans and thus survive without equipment where the human guard would not.
Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.
Marines, who are split up to ensure such well equipped force could turn in significant numbers.
Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.
Guard, who is seperated from the fleet on purpose.
Guard, who got a different job in the combined forces of the Imperium. Even back at the day when it was "Imperial army" and had some interesting equipment ( per HH series ).
Guard, who is not as standardized as marines. Remember most of the marines equipment is compatible. Guard more often than not has just the same ammo requirements, which is enforced by the munitorum.
Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

Your concept doesn't fly.



The Guard has a purpose and suits it well. No need to add more strain to them.

1hadhq wrote:The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.

Which can, admittedly, vary greatly in the quality of equipment, training & calibre of recruits it can provide. However for every world that contributes a poorly equipped & poorly trained Guard regiment, there will be several worlds producing averagely equipped & trained troops & at least one world producing a superbly equipped & trained force. It's a real mix in the Imperial Guard.

1hadhq wrote:Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?

Depends on the world (by the way, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't use skitarii, that's the Mechanicus). Governor's don't want to send their best regiments to the Guard because they want those better quality troops there to defend them & their planet. However not all planets are selfless like that. Krieg raises tens of regiments each year whilst, from IA5, "where a comparable world might be expected to raise one regiment every decade." The Death Korp are some of the best & most numerous troops the Guard have to call on and they are very well trained, fearless & well equipped.

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are gen-enhanced humans and thus survive without equipment where the human guard would not.

Depends on the Guard regiment in question. On a jungle world the Catachans will be in a true home-from-home and will find it easy to survive without equipment. Same with desert worlds & the Tallarn, ice/snow worlds & Valhallans, toxic/ash/isotope soaked worlds & the Death Korp*

*The Death Korps uniform consists always of their specially treated trenchcoats, gasmasks & full coverage of their body. If you were to consider this all as 'equipment' and that they're not allowed it then the Astartes don't get their armour and they'd perish on a world such as Krieg just as quickly as a regular human.

1hadhq wrote:Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.

That's nice for them. "Quantity has a quality all of its own." 100 lasguns > 1 bolter.

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are split up to ensure such well equipped force could turn in significant numbers.

I assume there was meant to be 'could not'. I'll give you that one. The effect of the Legions turning shattered the Imperium -but- it was the Primarchs who made it occur - the Emperor could not believe that his favored son Horus had turned away from him. It took the sacrifice of the Imperial soldier Ollanius Pius, squaring up to Horus to protect his Emperor & being pulverised without thought by Horus, that made the Emperor realise his son had fallen completely.

1hadhq wrote:Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.

No, they're not specialised so they can't live if they turned away from the Imperium - their specialisation is a result of the world they come from & what the environment they are used to. Such as the Harakoni Warhawks who make excellent drop troops because they use grav-gliders to hunt vapour worms amidst the mountains - as it says on the Lexicanum, they're fearless of altitude & experts at judging air currents. Or the Tallarn Desert Raiders whose planet is a great sun blasted desert - they know how to move across such a landscape quickly & with stealth to be able to place themselves in a position to attack an enemy force with the greatest advantage to them. Many regiments are more 'generic' and don't have a true specialisation, but on the whole the specialisations that each Guard regiment brings are of great use to the Imperium & the many, many worlds it fights upon.

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is seperated from the fleet on purpose.

Yes they are split apart on purpose - this isn't just for the whole 'turning to Chaos' thing. It's more practical. If you have one person giving orders to run a land war & trying to give orders to naval fleets as well they're going to be overstretched & prone to making severe mistakes. It's why, in our history, we have had admirals for the navy & generals for the army - they each specialise in their role, know what it entails, how to command it best & thus can really concentrate on fighting the enemy to their best ability - afterall, is a Cadian General, who has fought upon many planets, who is an excellent tactician & strategist whilst fighting on a world - is he going to know how to best organise & order the Imperial Navy force that transported his men & their kit?

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who got a different job in the combined forces of the Imperium. Even back at the day when it was "Imperial army" and had some interesting equipment ( per HH series ).

But regular humans could still do the job the Astartes currently do. The Astartes have several advantages, yes, but the Imperium could replace them - they could create suits of carapace armour that are fully enclosed & vacuum sealed, change production from Godwyn bolters to the Godwyn-De'az the Sororitas use, and train them up to do the jobs the Astartes do. Of course there'd be far more of them available because they don't have to genetically alter each one for 5 years with a high chance of each recruit dieing...

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is not as standardized as marines. Remember most of the marines equipment is compatible. Guard more often than not has just the same ammo requirements, which is enforced by the munitorum.

Almost every Guard regiment across the million worlds carries the lasgun. How is that not standardised? Yes there are many marks & patterns of lasgun but there are also many marks and patterns of boltgun. Same goes with special & heavy weapons. Armour for the Guard might not be quite so standardised in not having only 8 patterns, but all flak armour does the job it's meant to - protects against fragmentations & gunfire.

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

And where did the Astartes get their ability to be independant & think on their initiative from? Ah, humans. So why can't regular humans act independantly? If they were given the mandate & equipment to do it then they would, easily.

1hadhq wrote:Your concept doesn't fly.

I'm afraid it does. The Astartes could be replaced.

1hadhq wrote:The Guard has a purpose and suits it well. No need to add more strain to them.

But there isn't any strain on the Guard - there's so damned many of them that they have tons of troops to spare. Take 50 million Guardsmen, give them enclosed carapace armour that allows them to operate in a vacuum, arm them with Godwyn-De'az bolters, allow them to operate independantly and you have 50x more Astartes than there currently are who can do the same job.

Kanluwen wrote:To break it down even further:

Something like 90% of the fighting in the Imperium is done by the Planetary Defense Forces/Sectorial Picket fleets.
5% is done by the Imperial Guard supporting those PDFs.
3% is done by the Imperial Navy, effectively ending wars before they begin.
1% is done by the Astartes supporting the PDF/Imperial Guard or operating by themselves.
1% is done by the Sisters of Battle supporting the PDF/Imperial Guard or operating by themselves.


The Imperial Guard, believe it or not, is actually an "elite" force. Their lives are not spent carelessly despite what Chenkov makes people think.

I'd probably rate it:

75% Navy
24% IG
and the last 1% made up of Astartes and other actions.

Remember, the enemy can only land troops if they've already beaten the Navy, and the Imperium can only land troops if the Navy has been succesful. There'll always be a naval conflict before a ground planetside one, and often times there'll be no reason to land troops at all. When the enemy has no fleet and you do, you've pretty much got him over a barrel.

Joey wrote:More like "What is the point of space marines when you have the imperial guard?".

To sell models, why else?

SM is like the Special Air Service or Navy SEALs. Not going to win you a war alone, but can turn the tide of a campaign or battle.

Kaldor wrote:Remember, the enemy can only land troops if they've already beaten the Navy

Dunno why you keep having this delusion. It certainly isn't true...

I don't think you understand that space is a big place. Bigger than we can actually practically comprehend.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.

Which can, admittedly, vary greatly in the quality of equipment, training & calibre of recruits it can provide. However for every world that contributes a poorly equipped & poorly trained Guard regiment, there will be several worlds producing averagely equipped & trained troops & at least one world producing a superbly equipped & trained force. It's a real mix in the Imperial Guard.

Sure its a mix. But still the tithe depends on data collected by the bureaucrats, the same who are able to lose whole worlds, the same who aren't able to record the actual status of Guard Regiments correctly so no one has a clue how many are out there. Regiments became subject of reprimands and even called traitors if they didn't respond....whilst being dead for some time....

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?

Depends on the world (by the way, the Ecclesiarchy doesn't use skitarii, that's the Mechanicus). Governor's don't want to send their best regiments to the Guard because they want those better quality troops there to defend them & their planet. However not all planets are selfless like that. Krieg raises tens of regiments each year whilst, from IA5, "where a comparable world might be expected to raise one regiment every decade." The Death Korp are some of the best & most numerous troops the Guard have to call on and they are very well trained, fearless & well equipped.

I've put both, the ground force of the eccesiarchy and the one of the mechanicum in this. Yes, I should have seperated it a bit to make it clear where I was going. Sorry.
Both, the church and the tech-magi have a lot of influence and ressources at their disposal. But none of them is able to equip a sizeable force at the level of the marines if they have to have standard humans to be their force. The mechanicum alters their recruts and wouldn't create something different just marines with another name. The tech-guard almost the same as guard, so skitarii are the closest to specialized troops it gets. At about 30 Legio's known, and skitarii supporting them in their thousands, not tens or hundred-thousands, it seems unlikely they are as numerous as the marines and everything supporting/protecting the god-machines of war would surly receive all the support the tech magi can afford.
The ecclesiarchy has some SoB, but knowing GW their numbers are "flexible" and the latest ones tend to make them one of the smallest forces of the IoM, maybe less than 10% of what marines got. And lately, they are stuck between an old witchhunter dex, a White-dwarfification,
different imaginations of various authors and the fanbase itself.
( Read one story myself just a few weeks ago, where the sisters acted as fanatically loyal servants to a corrupt cardinal and instead of the expected "not another vandire - BLAM" it got to the point where they killed the loyal Guard and died in a fire later.... talk about cleaning the orders . )
My point was: if two of the greater organizations can't afford to run an equivalent to marines and may not even intend to do so, how should singular systems be able to afford what Galaxy wide operating organizations cannot?

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are gen-enhanced humans and thus survive without equipment where the human guard would not.

Depends on the Guard regiment in question. On a jungle world the Catachans will be in a true home-from-home and will find it easy to survive without equipment. Same with desert worlds & the Tallarn, ice/snow worlds & Valhallans, toxic/ash/isotope soaked worlds & the Death Korp*

*The Death Korps uniform consists always of their specially treated trenchcoats, gasmasks & full coverage of their body. If you were to consider this all as 'equipment' and that they're not allowed it then the Astartes don't get their armour and they'd perish on a world such as Krieg just as quickly as a regular human.

Agreed, Guard has a specialization towards the environment. But they still aren't surviving the same unhealthy tricks an environment as various as a whole galaxy can provide at the rate of gene-enhanced and specifically created to survive beings can.
Tallarn, your example, had Guard mentioned especially for their valour fighting in an environment they couldn't survive outside their vehicles when it was under attack in the HH. The marines there weren't hindered in any way there...

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.

That's nice for them. "Quantity has a quality all of its own." 100 lasguns > 1 bolter.

Back in the day when I got into 40k, to waste the lives of the Guard was not expected from an officer.
100 lasguns are nice, a blade to the throat of the leader of the separatists is still better.
So no, quantitiy is a bad tactic, inbreed to new gamers from RTS games and spamming units.
Its also not adressing what I am saying, the Guard can't use marine equipment or any equipment on that level as they don't have the interfaces to interact as naturally as those do.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are split up to ensure such well equipped force could turn in significant numbers.

I assume there was meant to be 'could not'. I'll give you that one. The effect of the Legions turning shattered the Imperium -but- it was the Primarchs who made it occur - the Emperor could not believe that his favored son Horus had turned away from him. It took the sacrifice of the Imperial soldier Ollanius Pius, squaring up to Horus to protect his Emperor & being pulverised without thought by Horus, that made the Emperor realise his son had fallen completely.

1hadhq wrote:Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.

No, they're not specialised so they can't live if they turned away from the Imperium - their specialisation is a result of the world they come from & what the environment they are used to. Such as the Harakoni Warhawks who make excellent drop troops because they use grav-gliders to hunt vapour worms amidst the mountains - as it says on the Lexicanum, they're fearless of altitude & experts at judging air currents. Or the Tallarn Desert Raiders whose planet is a great sun blasted desert - they know how to move across such a landscape quickly & with stealth to be able to place themselves in a position to attack an enemy force with the greatest advantage to them. Many regiments are more 'generic' and don't have a true specialisation, but on the whole the specialisations that each Guard regiment brings are of great use to the Imperium & the many, many worlds it fights upon.

Its part of the Guard background to transfer the Imperial army to the Imperial Guard with 2 changes:
- no more fleet of their own
- pure regiments of 1 type, so they don't have a real army but just infantry for example.
Again, sorry if I didn't get to the point I was aiming for.
Your right, specialization isn't the correct term.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is seperated from the fleet on purpose.

Yes they are split apart on purpose - this isn't just for the whole 'turning to Chaos' thing. It's more practical. If you have one person giving orders to run a land war & trying to give orders to naval fleets as well they're going to be overstretched & prone to making severe mistakes. It's why, in our history, we have had admirals for the navy & generals for the army - they each specialise in their role, know what it entails, how to command it best & thus can really concentrate on fighting the enemy to their best ability - afterall, is a Cadian General, who has fought upon many planets, who is an excellent tactician & strategist whilst fighting on a world - is he going to know how to best organise & order the Imperial Navy force that transported his men & their kit?

Not trying to disagree in general, but in 40k the imperial army had closer ties to their transporting fleet units. Those have been cut too.
Anything else I agree with.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who got a different job in the combined forces of the Imperium. Even back at the day when it was "Imperial army" and had some interesting equipment ( per HH series ).

But regular humans could still do the job the Astartes currently do. The Astartes have several advantages, yes, but the Imperium could replace them - they could create suits of carapace armour that are fully enclosed & vacuum sealed, change production from Godwyn bolters to the Godwyn-De'az the Sororitas use, and train them up to do the jobs the Astartes do. Of course there'd be far more of them available because they don't have to genetically alter each one for 5 years with a high chance of each recruit dieing...

Carapace isn't as good as power armor and lacks a ton of features of it. So you are going to lower the efforts of every single member to the level of imperial stoorm-troopers and just swap the guns? Your troops aren't as resilient as the marines nor are they as good in HtH as they are. And we know wars are won with pointy sticks...sadly.
Enclosed carapace wouldn't provide the same mobility as power armor does. Enclosed means more stuff added. This means a company who loves blocky designs for Guard makes any imagination of them blocky and unwieldy too.
Lets see them deepstrike and stumble around as easy prey for these xeno and traitor marines. Happy now? you gave up on a force that could match the enemy to have nice victims they can slay.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is not as standardized as marines. Remember most of the marines equipment is compatible. Guard more often than not has just the same ammo requirements, which is enforced by the munitorum.

Almost every Guard regiment across the million worlds carries the lasgun. How is that not standardised? Yes there are many marks & patterns of lasgun but there are also many marks and patterns of boltgun. Same goes with special & heavy weapons. Armour for the Guard might not be quite so standardised in not having only 8 patterns, but all flak armour does the job it's meant to - protects against fragmentations & gunfire.

Not standardized as marine equipment is compatible all around. Each piece of power armor is, all of their vehicles are, in general the traitors aren't looting just for trophys but to replace their own damaged equipment too.
The Guard, as stated by the munitorum in the munitorum manual, is standardized as much as the munitorum is able to enforce.
But the level of standardization that was part of the astartes from the day when they left Terra for the great crusade can never be reached by the Guard, which is basically a human force equipped with local gear plus some mandatory and standardized patterns of weapons.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

And where did the Astartes get their ability to be independant & think on their initiative from? Ah, humans. So why can't regular humans act independantly? If they were given the mandate & equipment to do it then they would, easily.

Can you see these greedy organizations struggling for control who are represented by the High Lords to grant independence to anyone?
Can you?
I'd say the marines have their independence because no one was able to wrest it completly from them after the Heresy. And a codex said so.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Your concept doesn't fly.

I'm afraid it does. The Astartes could be replaced.

Sorry, looks like thats more of an Icarus effort of yours there.
Close to the sun and down he goes....

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The Guard has a purpose and suits it well. No need to add more strain to them.

But there isn't any strain on the Guard - there's so damned many of them that they have tons of troops to spare. Take 50 million Guardsmen, give them enclosed carapace armour that allows them to operate in a vacuum, arm them with Godwyn-De'az bolters, allow them to operate independantly and you have 50x more Astartes than there currently are who can do the same job.

And again, the Guard is all about orders. Orders mean a chain of command and the Guard loves its CoC...
The 50 million, non independent, without a fleet and reliant on the political decisions made by those who don't want to pay for this, aren't doing the same job as they lack the tools and the abilities. They even suffer from the absence of the Emperor. Who is, IMHO, the only one to make this concept of yours come to pass. Now, he created space marines and didn't put his ressources towards your idea.
Thus, your doubting him on Terra. May I call this heresy ?

Seriously, I see the general concept of yours, but 40k is knights in space and not sci-fi-improved human soldiery in space.
Thats why Guard got the short end of the stick and has to provide the underdogs of the background.
Still around and kickin after millenia against super-powerful xenos and threats from the warp isn't so bad. But why should they apply for another job? A job they are not meant for? To raise the casualty rate?

Don't get me wrong, but isn't this "marines are not neccessary" line one of the major misconceptions?
The IoM is a gathering of organizations, one of them the astartes who stayed loyal to the Emperor.
If we start to consider one of them unneccessary, how long does it take to ruin the whole image of the IoM?
We could get rid of others too. Until it isn't 40k anymore...

Hunterindarkness wrote:So they do not have a fleet, thats what the navy is for. The SM really do nothing that can not be filled by other people. The guard givin the SM tech level can do the very same type of assaults. You place an "interceptor" regiment with its own dedicated space fleet and there you go. The SM are useful, but they are also very, very replaceable.

The problem is the response time. Basically, the Astartes are a defensive force and the IG is an offensive one.

Now, that may seem counter-intuitive, but hear me out.

If an Imperial system is attacked, the very first line of defense will be any system ships in the area. We can assume that they will be easily brushed aside by any enemy forces. Next in line is the planetary PDF. We can also assume they will be killed to a man.

So what next? To get the IG moving the correct forms must be filled out in triplicate, forwarded onto the sub-sector commander, reviewed, lost, found, forwarded on to the sector commander, reviewed, lost twice, found twice, buried in soft mud for three months, forwarded on to Terra itself reviewed, and finally actioned. And then orders for levies to be raised in response to this incursion are issued, passed to the sector commander, misplaced, issued to the wrong sub-sector commander, returned to the sector command, lost again, found again, passed to the right sub-sector commander, forwarded on to individual planetary commanders who then issue the command for new regimental foundings.

So, the planet under attack will wait. But who will get there first? The ponderous behemoth that is the Imperial Guard? Or the Space Marines, already embarked on their own vessels and ready to respond?

So in response to an enemy attack, the lightning quick response time of the Astartes is the only thing allowing the Imperium as a whole to respond in any reasonable time frame.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Remember, the enemy can only land troops if they've already beaten the Navy

Dunno why you keep having this delusion. It certainly isn't true...

I don't think you understand that space is a big place. Bigger than we can actually practically comprehend.

Of course it is, and it always has been. You don't just fly your troop ships past the enemy fleet and hope for the best. You have to scare it off, destroy it, or otherwise remove it first.

1hadhq wrote:Guard and sisters don't even got their own fleets

That's what the navy's for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:You don't just fly your troop ships past the enemy fleet and hope for the best. You have to scare it off, destroy it, or otherwise remove it first.

The Marines do all the time.

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:You don't just fly your troop ships past the enemy fleet and hope for the best. You have to scare it off, destroy it, or otherwise remove it first.

The Marines do all the time.

Yeah? Like when?

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Remember, the enemy can only land troops if they've already beaten the Navy

Dunno why you keep having this delusion. It certainly isn't true...

I don't think you understand that space is a big place. Bigger than we can actually practically comprehend.

Space is a big place, but to land troops in any significant number you're required to enter the orbit of the planet you're assaulting.

That dramatically reduces the area that the Navy would have to protect.

Kaldor wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:So they do not have a fleet, thats what the navy is for. The SM really do nothing that can not be filled by other people. The guard givin the SM tech level can do the very same type of assaults. You place an "interceptor" regiment with its own dedicated space fleet and there you go. The SM are useful, but they are also very, very replaceable.

The problem is the response time. Basically, the Astartes are a defensive force and the IG is an offensive one.

If the Astartes were to vanish (an unlikely scenario given how well they sell, but we're talking hypotheticals here), all it would take is a few votes in the Imperial High Lords of Terra and the Sisters could get their own naval force to act in the same way that Marines do.

They'd probably actually be a bit better in some ways because they're more dependable, loyal, and reliable (loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium first and foremost, rather than loyal to their chapter and THEN the Imperium) than the average Astartes, while they'd be worse in some ways (such as not having the superior toughness making the Imperium have to devise a different way than drop pods to get them down, although GW has had Sisters use drop pods in he past so who knows?).

space marines are literarlly just huge guys with all the bigass guns, the pussy bio engineering and power armour, guardsmen dont need that crap, they just grab whats pretty much cardboard armour and a laser kalashnikov. lets face it, guardsmen are real men

Kanluwen wrote:That dramatically reduces the area that the Navy would have to protect.

The orbit around a planet is also a very, very big place. In modern times, we'd be lucky to watch two percent of the sky at any given time, and assuming a 2000% increase in capabilities over 40k years that's still less than half. All it takes is for the Astartes vessel to get in, launch its drop pods, and then go battle the navy vessels (both to get dominance and to ensure the marines aren't bombarded with orbital lance strikes).

1hadhq wrote:
You seem to miss the point of the marines.

No I just do not think they fill a "ill replaceable role"

1hadhq wrote:
The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.

This is correct, it relies upon the munitiurum (sp?) to Resupply it based upon the gear. As the IoM and the Munitiurum all use STC gear for the most part it is easily done, regardless of said Units tech level

1hadhq wrote:
Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?

Well first off the Skitarii are Admech and they prob could flood the place but they are limited to standing army size. And yes some worlds could indeed supply SM leave gear. Power armor is not unknown and some of the wealthier world could indeed field units of powerarmor/ Carapace armor with very high level gear and or armor units.

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are gen-enhanced humans and thus survive without equipment where the human guard would not.

While true out of armor the Astarte are better humans, however many worlds have "Better" humans. Ones who have evolved to be tougher , more resistant and stronger. And again wealthier worlds could feild "Enhanced" humans with cyber gear. That is all within reach and very doable.

1hadhq wrote:Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.

Incorrect. SM gear for the most part are simply larger versions of STC patterns. Nothing or almost nothing they field can not be replicated on a smaller scale. You can put cyber enhanced humans with power armor and bolters onto the battle field. Its just "Taboo" to do so.


[

1hadhq wrote:Marines, who are split up to ensure such well equipped force could turn in significant numbers.

They are split up to do that yes

1hadhq wrote:Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.

This is incorrect. A Guard unit goes where ever his warmaster tells him, they are always supported, heavily.

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is separated from the fleet on purpose.

Yep so no one man can pull a Houris

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who got a different job in the combined forces of the Imperium. Even back at the day when it was "Imperial army" and had some interesting equipment ( per HH series ).

I think you mean did the blunt of the thankless work. They did more then the SM legions to hold together the fledgling IoM.

1hadhq wrote:Guard, who is not as standardized as marines. Remember most of the marines equipment is compatible. Guard more often than not has just the same ammo requirements, which is enforced by the munitorum.

This is true, but every sector had a hand full of worlds who could turn out SM class gear. You just have those make the "SM" units.

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

Your concept doesn't fly.

I disagree, you can easily have commanders that live as long as SM, rejuvenation and cyber ware allows humans to reach the 4,5 or eve 6 hundred year mark. And all you have to do is place your "Interceptor" units to "free action roaming status" with them answering only to the warmaster of a given segmaturm. You would see little real diffidence in action. You may lose more men per action, but you can far more easily replace them.

Net lose to the IoM none.

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

This is not a boon for the Space Marines. Thier independence gives way to thier own political strife within and without, and involving other Chapters. Picking and choosing is not freedom to those getting ignored, it is arrogance.

Quantitiy is a bad tactic, inbreed to new gamers from RTS games and spamming units.
Its also not adressing what I am saying, the Guard can't use marine equipment or any equipment on that level as they don't have the interfaces to interact as naturally as those do.

Based on the amount of enemies the Imperium of Man has accrued, Quantity is needed as much as precision units. And Guardsmen can use Bolters, Heavy Bolters, Augurs, Power Fists, Power Weapons, Missile Launchers, Las Cannons, Calibration sensors, etc, however, the more prized armament is specifically reserved for the Astartes because they have a special role in the Emperor's service.

To think Quantity is a bad tactic within the Imperium of Man is absurdidly false. The Human Empire would not be as expansive as it is without Quantity of Man.

And the whole 'Specialized, elite units' are also a bad tactic, dreamt up by armchair generals who watch the Military Channel way too much and thinks that all armies operate that way...

KplKeegan wrote:

And the whole 'Specialized, elite units' are also a bad tactic, dreamt up by armchair generals who watch the Military Channel way too much and thinks that all armies operate that way...

You mean to tell me the History and military channel do not tell me the whole truth and simply one upping each unit to get me to watch The next thing you'll be telling me is Deadliest warrior doesn't use reliable and useable data and is not in fact a hard scientific study but just a show where they get to play with weapons, often incorrectly.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The Guard is contributed as a tithe and does rely on the ressources of its recrutement world.

This is correct, it relies upon the munitiorum to Resupply it based upon the gear. As the IoM and the Munitiorum all use STC gear for the most part it is easily done, regardless of said Units tech level

You did notice that the Guard is part of the tithe paid and thus it isn't going to be anything else than what the Administratum demanded as a tithe? The Munitorum takes over when the Guard is handed to its new masters.
So you first have to have the tech level right on that system and/or enough wealth to buy this equipment. Then you need to have the munitorums agreement to supply your contribution. Which is a Guard unit that differs from their usual ones.
That doesn't sound like something easily done.
Its expensive, you got to deal with the Imperial bureaucracy, the role model for the term "immobile object" itself, and after some millenia you may have the papers to begin to assemble this Guard unit. Isn't it easier to use what is already available?

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Organizations as the filthy rich ecclesiarchy aren't able to fill the battlefield with well equipped soldiery as numerous as some may like to believe exist, the skitarii aren't as numerous as the Guard and you still think the poor governors could supply something at a level comparable to marines?

Well first off the Skitarii are Admech and they prob could flood the place but they are limited to standing army size. And yes some worlds could indeed supply SM leave gear. Power armor is not unknown and some of the wealthier world could indeed field units of powerarmor/ Carapace armor with very high level gear and or armor units.

How do they flood the place? Got some examples of this?
And I'd love to see where these worlds are, who may supply such gear. A map may help...or at least where you got this from.
If I may ask.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Marines , who got access to their tech because of the alterations made.

Incorrect. SM gear for the most part are simply larger versions of STC patterns. Nothing or almost nothing they field can not be replicated on a smaller scale. You can put cyber enhanced humans with power armor and bolters onto the battle field. Its just "Taboo" to do so.

Call the cyber enhanced all you want. They are just a different form of marines if you improve/upgrade humans.
Marines are also able to interact with their gear differently than any power armor variant you seem to think of. So no, its not incorrect.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard , who is split up and specialized to ensure they can't turn easily and live.

This is incorrect. A Guard unit goes where ever his warmaster tells him, they are always supported, heavily.

Explained this before, but I'll grant you the term specialized isn't a good choice of mine.
Guard was separated from the fleet and became an army of units dedicated to one type of regiment after the heresy.
They are no longer a real army of different types of companies ( infantry, artillery, mounted troops, etc ) but have to be of 1 clearly defined type.
This prevents the Guard from losing whole armys as "pure" infantry unit for example may not have the tools to survive against the wrath of the Guard elements still loyal.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Guard acting on orders. Marines choosing their own targets. Short lived humans vs long lived marines. Independent marines vs Guard caught in the political quabbling of the IoM. No choice where to go vs freedom to act upon the interests of the Emperor.

Your concept doesn't fly.

I disagree, you can easily have commanders that live as long as SM, rejuvenation and cyber ware allows humans to reach the 4,5 or eve 6 hundred year mark. And all you have to do is place your "Interceptor" units to "free action roaming status" with them answering only to the warmaster of a given segmentum. You would see little real diffirence in action. You may lose more men per action, but you can far more easily replace them.

Net loss to the IoM none.

Really? Net loss of giving up a working concept to replace something with a untested and most likely actively opposed concept as it grows the paperwork and goes against traditions in an rather backwards oriented sci-fantasy-verse isn't zero.

It was far better laid out than I am capable of, so here a quote:

Kaldor wrote:
If an Imperial system is attacked, the very first line of defense will be any system ships in the area. We can assume that they will be easily brushed aside by any enemy forces. Next in line is the planetary PDF. We can also assume they will be killed to a man.

So what next? To get the IG moving the correct forms must be filled out in triplicate, forwarded onto the sub-sector commander, reviewed, lost, found, forwarded on to the sector commander, reviewed, lost twice, found twice, buried in soft mud for three months, forwarded on to Terra itself reviewed, and finally actioned. And then orders for levies to be raised in response to this incursion are issued, passed to the sector commander, misplaced, issued to the wrong sub-sector commander, returned to the sector command, lost again, found again, passed to the right sub-sector commander, forwarded on to individual planetary commanders who then issue the command for new regimental foundings.

So, the planet under attack will wait. But who will get there first? The ponderous behemoth that is the Imperial Guard? Or the Space Marines, already embarked on their own vessels and ready to respond?

So in response to an enemy attack, the lightning quick response time of the Astartes is the only thing allowing the Imperium as a whole to respond in any reasonable time frame.

Your layout , Hunterindarkness , just jumps across the whole bunch of underlings involved but still can't deny the increased response time generated from requesting orders from your warmaster. Orders are a definitive trait of the Guard you know. So if the comms are cut, what shall those "interceptors" do? Act on their own? A new Badab war, Guard style?
Not saying the Guard cannot stay loyal, but I doubt the chances of them resisting the insanity that is the 40k verse as well as those who have been created for WAR. Lets assume they keep their faith in the God-Emperor and act as fast as they can.
Are there any reports of Guard catching the fast xeno raiders out there or was this again the astartes doing?
Are there any hints on Guard successfully acting as a rapid reaction force?
No?
Seems the Guard has to stick with its job.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote:



To think Quantity is a bad tactic within the Imperium of Man is absurdidly false. The Human Empire would not be as expansive as it is without Quantity of Man.

And the whole 'Specialized, elite units' are also a bad tactic, dreamt up by armchair generals who watch the Military Channel way too much and thinks that all armies operate that way...

Depends if the saying of Quantitiy is meant as an excuse to waste the lives of the Guard.
What I fondly remember, it was said the lives of the Guard are his currency and an officer should not waste the Emperors monies.. ( 3rd ed? ).
So sorry, if quantity equals amount of firepower used to make sure something is dead, ok.

But I am not a fan of the latest installment of creatures like chenkov. Sure the masses recrutable are an advantage of the IoM and it doesn't look like the numbers given hint on a war-footing at all. The ressources to transport and supply them deserve consideration tough.
Not sure if I think in absurdly false ways, but generally the combined forces approach may fit the multiple organizations construct that imperial forces are , more often than not best.

1hadhq wrote:Your layout , Hunterindarkness , just jumps across the whole bunch of underlings involved but still can't deny the increased response time generated from requesting orders from your warmaster. Orders are a definitive trait of the Guard you know. So if the comms are cut, what shall those "interceptors" do? Act on their own? A new Badab war, Guard style?

Already happens to guard units occasionally anyway. But more to the point, with the Guard it's far less likely to happen because they are not separate from the Imperium as the Marines are.

1hadhq wrote:Not saying the Guard cannot stay loyal, but I doubt the chances of them resisting the insanity that is the 40k verse as well as those who have been created for WAR.

Oh please, the Space Marines only barely manage said resistance and do not have a very good record of resisting it (compared to, say, Sisters of Battle), certainly they manage it no better-- and hell, in FFG's roleplay system, there's no boon that Marines have that prevents corruption any more than the average Guardsman has.

1hadhq wrote:Are there any reports of Guard catching the fast xeno raiders out there

Yes, Guard has won against the Dark Eldar, even on the offense.

1hadhq wrote:Are there any hints on Guard successfully acting as a rapid reaction force?

Fifth Ciaphas Cain book has a small-scale example of this, Guard uses valkyries to rapidly react to Tyranid incursions in the unique geography of the planet.

1hadhq wrote:But I am not a fan of the latest installment of creatures like chenkov. Sure the masses recrutable are an advantage of the IoM and it doesn't look like the numbers given hint on a war-footing at all. The ressources to transport and supply them deserve consideration tough.

Yes it does. The Imperium needs numbers to both defend and capture worlds (something the Space Marines are woefully inept at doing). Resources and supplies can also be confiscated as spoils of war, and in turn be used against the defending enemy if needed, and it is not unheard of that Imperial Guard Regiments to find alternative methods of supplies when there are none being delivered (as throwing empty Las Gun batteries into open fires to slightly reacharge them) or use the enemies munitions and resources.

Not sure if I think in absurdly false ways, but generally the combined forces approach may fit the multiple organizations construct that imperial forces are , more often than not best.

But the Imperial forces don't work in tandem with each other, and hardly 'combine' forces effectively. Space Marines often refuse the council of Imperial Generals. Arch-Confessors and Cannonnes' could care less what either group does. Imperial Generals are left with doing all the heavy lifting. It doesn't matter what the Imperial Guard are trying to do, but if it lines up with the agendas the Space Marines have, its more a convenience than any thing else.

Kaldor wrote:So in response to an enemy attack, the lightning quick response time of the Astartes is the only thing allowing the Imperium as a whole to respond in any reasonable time frame.

The only thing lightning quick about the Astartes in the sense of responding is saying no. Depending on where the Chapter Fleet is and after deciding whether or not the planet is valuable in service to the emperor AND deciding what amount of force to bring, then they come if they want to, which could be weeks to months.

Unlike the Guard, who are more plentiful, would probably be diverted en-route from another warzone (while in-system or in neighboring systems) to assist the beleaguered planet. Guard just don't sit and wait, they're constantly moving like the Space Marines; a ponderous bulk of Regiments being shipped around constantly, ready to change course at the decision of Segmentum Command, which passes it onto the Warmaster/Imperial General.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Your layout , Hunterindarkness , just jumps across the whole bunch of underlings involved but still can't deny the increased response time generated from requesting orders from your warmaster. Orders are a definitive trait of the Guard you know. So if the comms are cut, what shall those "interceptors" do? Act on their own? A new Badab war, Guard style?

Already happens to guard units occasionally anyway. But more to the point, with the Guard it's far less likely to happen because they are not separate from the Imperium as the Marines are.

It would be less likely if Hunterindarkness kept the setup of the Guard. But it was changed to independence...and thus closer to the issue of
sedition. Leaders of the Imperial army started their own empires. Officers of the Guard aren't renown for a lesser chance to turn.
Imperium or not, distances to the capital/higher ups are more dangerous to unified groups than those used to act on their own.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Not saying the Guard cannot stay loyal, but I doubt the chances of them resisting the insanity that is the 40k verse as well as those who have been created for WAR.

Oh please, the Space Marines only barely manage said resistance and do not have a very good record of resisting it (compared to, say, Sisters of Battle), certainly they manage it no better-- and hell, in FFG's roleplay system, there's no boon that Marines have that prevents corruption any more than the average Guardsman has.

IIRC the warmaster took forces who weren't astartes with him into that war, something along a great portion of army and mechanicum elements. Sure marines aren't perfect, but they can't be as their source are humans and they got their character and thus behaviour from there. I'd still put more faith into the ones who focus their thoughts on a purpose.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Are there any reports of Guard catching the fast xeno raiders out there

Yes, Guard has won against the Dark Eldar, even on the offense.

1hadhq wrote:Are there any hints on Guard successfully acting as a rapid reaction force?

Fifth Ciaphas Cain book has a small-scale example of this, Guard uses valkyries to rapidly react to Tyranid incursions in the unique geography of the planet.

A ciaphas cain citation from you? Didn't expect that.

Methinks the example of the 'offensive' against DE involves a bunch of very arrogant ones who cannot believe the mon'keigh dare to attack, right? Otherwise those spiky space elfs got the means to get away to fast to be caught. At least by the Hammer of the Emperor...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KplKeegan wrote: or use the enemies munitions and resources.

The direct path to have the mark of the heretic put upon you.
Either the church declares you tainted if it was from the arch-enemy or its consorting with xenos if it was of alien design.
Your lucky if this reqisited ressources are taken from "normal" humans.
At least its just the munitorum complaining about it then..

KplKeegan wrote:But the Imperial forces don't work in tandem with each other, and hardly 'combine' forces effectively.

They were effectively working together, before that civil war called HH.
Trust was lost as the first victim of that war.

Yes I know we can't have a effective combination of forces , as that would end the eternal war too soon.
But OtoH there are plenty of examples where they get their act together and so I don't see this general refusal to combine forces as a given.

1hadhq wrote:Methinks the example of the 'offensive' against DE involves a bunch of very arrogant ones who cannot believe the mon'keigh dare to attack, right? Otherwise those spiky space elfs got the means to get away to fast to be caught. At least by the Hammer of the Emperor...

If I recall correctly, it was with valkyries. But my point was that the Guard IS capable of lightning strikes, in fact, the only thing that the Guard lacks is the drop pod, and frankly the Dark Eldar are going to dodge those too if you think they can dodge being harried by valkyries, which can actually move to chase unlike drop pods.

1hadhq wrote:



You did notice that the Guard is part of the tithe paid and thus it isn't going to be anything else than what the Administratum demanded as a tithe? The Munitorum takes over when the Guard is handed to its new masters.
So you first have to have the tech level right on that system and/or enough wealth to buy this equipment. Then you need to have the munitorums agreement to supply your contribution. Which is a Guard unit that differs from their usual ones.
That doesn't sound like something easily done.
Its expensive, you got to deal with the Imperial bureaucracy, the role model for the term "immobile object" itself, and after some millenia you may have the papers to begin to assemble this Guard unit. Isn't it easier to use what is already available?

Yes it takes over, however it also supplies at the level the unit needs. Once a you get to low, then new tide influx from said would are brought in to fill the ranks or the unit is disbanded and scattered. soldiers are simply part of a tithe, gear, and materiel are also part of those tithes. The Munitorum has already agreed to such things once they accepted the unit as a tithe. You think Lathe worlds for instance could not make high end gear?

1hadhq wrote:

How do they flood the place? Got some examples of this?
And I'd love to see where these worlds are, who may supply such gear. A map may help...or at least where you got this from.
If I may ask.

I am not sure where you are getting the term "flood the place" But yeah any high tech world that for insatace can build STC armored units and ships or a lathe world can easily churn out Power armor ,,bolters, flamers and any other numbers of gear. Bolters are not uncommon with in the guard. As fr where I get it, mostly from books and the RPG side. I can give you a list of worlds off hand that can do the very thing from the Calixis sector.

the Laths:Het,Hadd,Hesh
Scintilla
prol ix
Cantus,
Grove's fall
,Solomon,
Canopus,
Frnksworld,
Heredrin,
Singurd IV
,Samson Iv,
Guytoga
Braspine,
Tephaine,
Trach,
Pricty,
Lo,
Laskin,
Ferviuos,
Thical,
Landunder
,Malfi,
Zwehans World,
Alctra,
Vaxanide
Lind


Each of these worlds could tithe a dozen or more regiments per year and have the tech level, manufacturing and population level to churn out armor units and yes power armor. You can find power armor on each of these woulds without much trouble.

1hadhq wrote:

Call the cyber enhanced all you want. They are just a different form of marines if you improve/upgrade humans.
Marines are also able to interact with their gear differently than any power armor variant you seem to think of. So no, its not incorrect.

Marine use a pice of cyber gear called a black caprice implanted within them to interface with the power armor. Even without that gear a normal human is not much less fluide then a SM, not enough to really matter to someone being attacked not in power armor. so yes still correct.

1hadhq wrote:

Explained this before, but I'll grant you the term specialized isn't a good choice of mine.
Guard was separated from the fleet and became an army of units dedicated to one type of regiment after the heresy.
They are no longer a real army of different types of companies ( infantry, artillery, mounted troops, etc ) but have to be of 1 clearly defined type.
This prevents the Guard from losing whole armys as "pure" infantry unit for example may not have the tools to survive against the wrath of the Guard elements still loyal.

A chapters whole fleet is not a tenth of what the navy uses to ferry a full planetary invasion action. Having a dedicated assigned transport under one command would be no worse then what the SM now are, accept they would be under the chain of command of the warmaster, unlike the SM's They are less a threat then the current SM chapter set up honestly..

1hadhq wrote:

Really? Net loss of giving up a working concept to replace something with a untested and most likely actively opposed concept as it grows the paperwork and goes against traditions in an rather backwards oriented sci-fantasy-verse isn't zero.

Yes it is zero, if all the SM were gone the IoM and the Guard would adapt to replace them. In tyhe long term the SM's are the replaceable unit, you can not however replace the Guard. what I am saying that if they had to they could replace the SM's with Guard units. Would they be as good man per man? No, would they get the job done? Yes. In the same term you could not replace what the Guards do with SM's.



Also I never said the guard would all be independent I said you could place a regiment ( larger then a chapter BTW) per sector on independent "Interceptor duty" they still could be sent orders but without them fill the very same role a chapter does.

Or they could give the role to the Sisters, who are quite suited to it anyway.

1hadhq wrote:Yes I know we can't have a effective combination of forces , as that would end the eternal war too soon.
But OtoH there are plenty of examples where they get their act together and so I don't see this general refusal to combine forces as a given.

But such actions are uncommon among engangements that don't threaten entire spans of systems (Like the Defense of Ultramar, Armageddon, the Kryptman incident, The 13th Black Crusade...), so you cannot state that combining forces happens often enough to warrant the Imperium's military being, as a whole, cohesive.

Melissia wrote:Or they could give the role to the Sisters, who are quite suited to it anyway.

Agreed they are already Space marine "Lite" anyhow and far, far less likely to fall to chaos.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Melissia wrote:Or they could give the role to the Sisters, who are quite suited to it anyway.

Agreed they are already Space marine "Lite" anyhow and far, far less likely to fall to chaos.

Yeah but the Ecclesiarchy has hardly been the picture of innocence throughout it's existence.
The Reign of Cardinal Bucharis and the Age of Apostasy are both directly the fault of the Ecclesiarchy...
The Imperium is segmented for a reason...

I find something interesting about being them being the only guys who dont have anything super special about them.

purplefood wrote:Yeah but the Ecclesiarchy has hardly been the picture of innocence throughout it's existence.

The Sisters, however, have been paragons of virtue in comparison to both the higher ups of both the Ecclesiarchy and the Guard..

Hunterindarkness wrote:
yes it takes over, however it also supplies at the level the unit needs. Once a you get to low, then new tide influx from said would are brought in to fill the ranks or the unit is disbanded and scattered. soldiers are simply part of a tithe, gear, and materiel are also part of those tithes. The Munitorum has already agreed to such things once they accepted the unit as a tithe. You think Lathe worlds for instance could not make high end gear?

I am either the most confusing poster of dakka or you try really hard to evade my point.
The tithe, isn't set by the Governor.
He has to pay what the Administratum calls for.
So if they demand Leman Russes, your type of unit isn't accepted and thus doesn't count. Its most likely rejected and the Governor accused of many things, but surely not to be a good loyal representative of the Lords of Terra.
Secondly, Guard has no replacements for losses sent to. They just fight until their strength drops below acceptable levels. They either retire or have to join another depleted force, which isn't always seen as worth the ressources spent on the newly combined unit.
Thirdly, I don't recall any world called lathe as part of the background supplied by GW. Maybe a third party product?
Aaah found it. Down there, so I'll care for that in the next reply.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

How do they flood the place? Got some examples of this?
And I'd love to see where these worlds are, who may supply such gear. A map may help...or at least where you got this from.
If I may ask.

I am not sure where you are getting the term "flood the place" But yeah any high tech world that for instance can build STC armored units and ships or a lathe world can easily churn out Power armor ,,bolters, flamers and any other numbers of gear. Bolters are not uncommon with in the guard. As for where I get it, mostly from books and the RPG side. I can give you a list of worlds off hand that can do the very thing from the Calixis sector.

Cut out the long list of third party stuff. IMO our problem is, your basing your statements on the RPG and mine are based on the TT.
First off, I took that term of flooding things from your post.
Second off, an RPG supplies a lot of things, for characters. Thats all nice until you realize RPG and TT are different beasts.
In a background written to support a TT game, its about armies and a stream of war/materials sent to keep them going.
In a RPG setting, nothing is restricted, because the aim of the game is to provide an exhaustive list of things for the players.
The TT however, restricts because its aim is to support the image of rare things, of a Imperium tied down by its bureaucracy and the publication of GW , especially those about the Guard and the Munitorum , cast a picture of mass produced gear and the dozens of ways your comissar may find your care for the supplies of the IG wanting and acting upon it.
Cannot find any of these easily produced in great numbers claims of your RPG sources in the TT publications at all. Seems 2 companies got a different POV. I for one, am with GW as it is the owner of the IP and most likely still working on the fluff when the contracts have ended.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Call the cyber enhanced all you want. They are just a different form of marines if you improve/upgrade humans.
Marines are also able to interact with their gear differently than any power armor variant you seem to think of. So no, its not incorrect.

Marine use a pice of cyber gear called a black carapace implanted within them to interface with the power armor. Even without that gear a normal human is not much less fluide then a SM, not enough to really matter to someone being attacked not in power armor. so yes still correct.

Huh
Marines fight in PA like itsb an expansion of their body. I would call that a clear major advantage.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Yes it is zero, if all the SM were gone the IoM and the Guard would adapt to replace them. In tyhe long term the SM's are the replaceable unit, you can not however replace the Guard. what I am saying that if they had to they could replace the SM's with Guard units. Would they be as good man per man? No, would they get the job done? Yes. In the same term you could not replace what the Guards do with SM's.

Adapt to what exactly To the fact they lost a useful tool and cannot replace it, no matter how hard some may like to believe.
The Guard does not get the job done. If it could, the Emperor would not waste his time creating astartes and primarchs.
I could replace the Guard. If I was allowed to expand on existant fluff a bit and alter a few events.
Let me say , I do not suggest his work as a good read, but for this thread I will base an example how to replace Guard on a recent BL publication from Mr Thorpe, a former game designer and now working for BL. Pull forth Deliverance Lost.
There we find the original source of the geneseed, granted by the Emperor to Corax to rebuild his Legion.
Some of us may know, it got stolen by the Alpha legionaires, but before that it was pretty potent at creating superior marines and did it much faster then it was possible for the Legions. All I have to change is to keep it and use it. Use it to expand the Legions further than GW did in their newest take where they grow from 10.000 to 100.000 per Legio. I mean, if this marine equipment would be so easy to produce as you seem to think, those rapidly created thousands upon thousands of marines would surely add up to millions and given the amount of humans in this Galaxy it is not a challenge to alter the size from hundred thousand to millions, to several hundred millions of enhanced and well equipped warriors dedicated to conquer and reclaim what belongs to mankind. See its not impossible.
But it would ruin the story of the HH and make the basic human rather useless in battle.
The guard does not define its purpose on replacing anyone else. And the purpose of the guard is or was the subject of this thread.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Also I never said the guard would all be independent I said you could place a regiment ( larger then a chapter BTW) per sector on independent "Interceptor duty" they still could be sent orders but without them fill the very same role a chapter does.

You follow orders or you do not. There is no choice for Guard. No switching on and off.

Melissia wrote:

purplefood wrote:Yeah but the Ecclesiarchy has hardly been the picture of innocence throughout it's existence.

The Sisters, however, have been paragons of virtue in comparison to both the higher ups of both the Ecclesiarchy and the Guard..

True but don't the Sisters answer to the Ecclesiarchy?

1hadhq wrote:

I am either the most confusing poster of dakka or you try really hard to evade my point.
The tithe, isn't set by the Governor.
He has to pay what the Administratum calls for.
So if they demand Leman Russes, your type of unit isn't accepted and thus doesn't count. Its most likely rejected and the Governor accused of many things, but surely not to be a good loyal representative of the Lords of Terra.
Secondly, Guard has no replacements for losses sent to. They just fight until their strength drops below acceptable levels. They either retire or have to join another depleted force, which isn't always seen as worth the ressources spent on the newly combined unit.
Thirdly, I don't recall any world called lathe as part of the background supplied by GW. Maybe a third party product?

Aaah found it. Down there, so I'll care for that in the next reply.

Not trying to evade a thing, just not sure what you are getting at. The governor does indeed provide what the Admin asks for, however different worlds do have different tech levels. When if comes time to replace parts or units then that is also provided to the Admin as part of the worlds tithe. And yes, guardsmen do replace loses, either by influx of the same world or by being broken up and sent to other units as reinforcements. Often a world will "Refound" a unit using the name of an old unit. Also a Lath world is one under control of the Admech and used as founry worlds. Same thing, diff name.

1hadhq wrote:


Cut out the long list of third party stuff. IMO our problem is, your basing your statements on the RPG and mine are based on the TT..

Well it is official, and sanctioned third party stuff, more reliable then the BL stuff and just as official You asked for a list of worlds that could do what I said, thinking I could not provide it. I have then you claim it does not count. I find that odd. It is an official product.

1hadhq wrote:


Huh
Marines fight in PA like itsb an expansion of their body. I would call that a clear major advantage.

So does everyone else. They have a slight edge in fluidity that does not translate to any game effect in TT and only a very small , minor one in the RPG. sure they more a slight bit faster, but not terribly more so and if they can have the implate as it is not part of the Astarte organs or transformation it can be used in normal humans and was before SM become the norm. Just like Power armor itself, it is Dark age tech and older then Astates.

1hadhq wrote:
Adapt to what exactly To the fact they lost a useful tool and cannot replace it, no matter how hard some may like to believe.

They can replace it good enough. They can make Guardmen "almost " as good and in greater numbers and faster. So what if they are not as good. They can do the same thing in the end.

1hadhq wrote:
The Guard does not get the job done. If it could, the Emperor would not waste his time creating astartes and primarchs.

By GW fluff the Empower was trying to make Human 2.0, he meant to make a human unable to be corrupted by chaos, when the primarches were lost he used the Astarte as a back up. He failed all round.

1hadhq wrote:
I could replace the Guard. If I was allowed to expand on existant fluff a bit and alter a few events.

How? The IG are trillions strong, hundreds and thousands of trillions a sector at any one time have billions of IG on active duty not counting PDF units.

1hadhq wrote:
Let me say , I do not suggest his work as a good read, but for this thread I will base an example how to replace Guard on a recent BL publication from Mr Thorpe, a former game designer and now working for BL. Pull forth Deliverance Lost.
There we find the original source of the geneseed, granted by the Emperor to Corax to rebuild his Legion.
Some of us may know, it got stolen by the Alpha legionaires, but before that it was pretty potent at creating superior marines and did it much faster then it was possible for the Legions. All I have to change is to keep it and use it. Use it to expand the Legions further than GW did in their newest take where they grow from 10.000 to 100.000 per Legio. I mean, if this marine equipment would be so easy to produce as you seem to think, those rapidly created thousands upon thousands of marines would surely add up to millions and given the amount of humans in this Galaxy it is not a challenge to alter the size from hundred thousand to millions, to several hundred millions of enhanced and well equipped warriors dedicated to conquer and reclaim what belongs to mankind. See its not impossible.
But it would ruin the story of the HH and make the basic human rather useless in battle.

Might want to cut out that third party stuff as it is not table top stuff Anyhow the gear is easy to produce, as far as that goes. You can churn out a few thousand with little trouble. However it is costly and often felt to be "Wasted" Look how real world militias work, troops do not often have the best gear they could have. They have the cheapest that does the job.

1hadhq wrote:
You follow orders or you do not. There is no choice for Guard. No switching on and off.

This is incorrect. You can and most militates do both. If your have standard orders of " Act accordingly to as you feel best" it does not countermand direct orders telling you to do something else.

purplefood wrote:True but don't the Sisters answer to the Ecclesiarchy?

The Sisters answer to only the Emperor in the end. Apostates and power-mad priests face the Sisters' wrath as much as, if not even more so than, the heretics that they are commonly seen hunting.

Melissia wrote:If the Astartes were to vanish (an unlikely scenario given how well they sell, but we're talking hypotheticals here), all it would take is a few votes in the Imperial High Lords of Terra and the Sisters could get their own naval force to act in the same way that Marines do

True, if the Marines vanished you could replace them with another force, but thats really the point. If you got rid of them you'd need to replace them with a very similar force. The role they fill is vital.


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KplKeegan wrote: Unlike the Guard, who are more plentiful, would probably be diverted en-route from another warzone

Uh, no. They're heading to that other warzone for a reason. IG are either fighting, in transit, or sitting on the ground somewhere, pretty much all the time. In the first two cases they are useless as a response force, and in the third it takes a LONG time to get them up and going, not least because you also need to rendezvous a Navy force to shuttle them around.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
The governor does indeed provide what the Admin asks for, however different worlds do have different tech levels. When if comes time to replace parts or units then that is also provided to the Admin as part of the worlds tithe. And yes, guardsmen do replace loses, either by influx of the same world or by being broken up and sent to other units as reinforcements. Often a world will "Refound" a unit using the name of an old unit. Also a Lath world is one under control of the Admech and used as foundry worlds. Same thing, diff name.

Reinforcement isn't happening. Trust the IG codices. The vostroyans are maybe what you are thinking of, but they are a bit special because of their history and the price to pay for their actions.
Sure, honored units will be raised again, but these are new units. New, as another tithe.
Established background of the IG is, Regiments fight until they cannot anymore. This wouldn't happen if reinforcements were incoming regularly. Regiments are sent far off, months even years to travel. And sometimes the admin forget who was sent.....
Maybe they return one day, maybe they settle somewhere. But one thing is undoubtable: replacement parts are supplied by the munitorum, not the world raising the regiment as a tithe.
I am not saying your POV wouldn't improve a few things for IG, but somehow its seems to differ from the background of 40k as provided by GW.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Well it is official, and sanctioned third party stuff, more reliable then the BL stuff and just as official You asked for a list of worlds that could do what I said, thinking I could not provide it. I have then you claim it does not count. I find that odd. It is an official product.

I didn't aim to find something you couldn't answer. If you got that impression, your mistaken.
I was curious where you got it. Now, can't check those source I do not own myself.
You find it odd that I question a source? Why? Because there were never debates about canon/officiality of licensed and sub-companies products? If so, please do a search. You will find plenty of this.
I didn't claim it doesn't count. Just told you I prefer the publications of the company called GW themselves when it comes to validity.
And thus placed the rulebooks , expansions and codices above the sub-companies ( BL / FW ) and the licensed third party works.
A personal choice, I may make without invalidating your preferances.
The one statement I will question, is your idea of it being more reliable than BL.
It is not. It is a version of 40k and like authors of BL adapt the background to create a story, like game designers adapted a few things to create a game worth playing, a company aiming for an RPG will also have their own take. Its in the nature of the product.
Still, I am used to GW's attempts to declare most of the gear of the astartes not easy to produce. Even if that doesn't make sense.
Even if their course is obviously meant to have rare things only if done by forgeworld and lifting that rarity when they take over and now in plastic from GW! As an example of this: the Leman Russ Executioner of the Imperial Guard.
Shown as phasing out ancient variant , only supplied by a single forgeworld. Then it moved to the codex IG and became part of a multi-variant plastic kit. Guess where the fluff went? Guess where the restriction went?
> Out of the window... And there you go, please buy whole regiments of it...

Hunterindarkness wrote:
So does everyone else. They have a slight edge in fluidity that does not translate to any game effect in TT and only a very small , minor one in the RPG. sure they more a slight bit faster, but not terribly more so and if they can have the implate as it is not part of the Astarte organs or transformation it can be used in normal humans and was before SM become the norm. Just like Power armor itself, it is Dark age tech and older then Astates.

This slight edge isn't so small if you consider we are in 40k background here. A place where the fluff is part of this and in-game effects tend to be dismissed, not without reason.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
They can replace it good enough. They can make Guardmen "almost " as good and in greater numbers and faster. So what if they are not as good. They can do the same thing in the end.

No. They can't.
Your running in circles.
The Guard has a purpose, as laid out in the background section of rulebooks and codices for years and several editions.
This never changed, so we could call it consistant.
The representation of the IG cannot be separated from the game it is part of and their role in 40k isn't to do what others do, but to have their place and in this and in a Imperium consisting of a multitude of organizations, each with a role to play. The Guard fits into that mix.
As a faction that has its strenghts and weaknessess. As a part of the IoM that isn't free from political interference. As the slow but deadly Hammer of the Emperor. It isn't capable of the same style of warfare others are, its own is good enough and combined with the more specialized forces it contributes the body for the unstoppable war machine the forces of the IoM can be.
Can. If everyone knows its place.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The Guard does not get the job done. If it could, the Emperor would not waste his time creating astartes and primarchs.

By GW fluff the Emperor was trying to make Human 2.0, he meant to make a human unable to be corrupted by chaos, when the primarches were lost he used the Astarte as a back up. He failed all round.

So if if you got no argument, you flee to heresy?
'The Emperor already had a first batch of super-soldiers to conquer Terra, the thunder warriors.
He had some gene - enhanced humans too, when the crusade began. Both concepts given up on.
The Primarchs were never meant to act alone. Thus astartes aren't a back up as you claim.
They are a lesser copy. A master copy, the Primarch. Even without the Primarchs he could create the Legions.
So you think he failed. He didn't fail to reconquer the realm humanity had settled before the age age, with his Legions and in just about 200 years. Faster than any gakky chaos minion or xeno may claim for its efforts.
OtoH, in a Guard thread a comissar should be acting on your disloyality towards the God-Emperor.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
I could replace the Guard. If I was allowed to expand on existant fluff a bit and alter a few events.

How? The IG are trillions strong, hundreds and thousands of trillions a sector at any one time have billions of IG on active duty not counting PDF units.

There is an example already. Seems you keep ignoring what I am posting...
The Guard got Cruddaced, and is now billions of regiments. Doesn't add up to thousands of trillions a sector methinks...

1hadhq wrote:
Let me say , I do not suggest his work as a good read, but for this thread I will base an example how to replace Guard on a recent BL publication from Mr Thorpe, a former game designer and now working for BL. Pull forth Deliverance Lost.
There we find the original source of the geneseed, granted by the Emperor to Corax to rebuild his Legion.
Some of us may know, it got stolen by the Alpha legionaires, but before that it was pretty potent at creating superior marines and did it much faster then it was possible for the Legions. All I have to change is to keep it and use it. Use it to expand the Legions further than GW did in their newest take where they grow from 10.000 to 100.000 per Legio. I mean, if this marine equipment would be so easy to produce as you seem to think, those rapidly created thousands upon thousands of marines would surely add up to millions and given the amount of humans in this Galaxy it is not a challenge to alter the size from hundred thousand to millions, to several hundred millions of enhanced and well equipped warriors dedicated to conquer and reclaim what belongs to mankind. See its not impossible.
But it would ruin the story of the HH and make the basic human rather useless in battle.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Might want to cut out that third party stuff as it is not table top stuff

Really? BL and its HH series is a sub-company of GW. No third party stranger and thjis author worked as game designer before...at GW.
Just throwing in.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Anyhow the gear is easy to produce, as far as that goes. You can churn out a few thousand with little trouble. However it is costly and often felt to be "Wasted" Look how real world militias work, troops do not often have the best gear they could have. They have the cheapest that does the job.

Easy to produce if its for a RPG to grant access everywhere to a wide list of items.
Not so easy to produce if its main line the TT. They like this "relic" , " lost tech" etc pp idea too much.

Shall I respond to an inclusion of real life in a thread about a sci-fantasy-verse?
As far as I am aware of, this doesn't turn out to have anything in common. Real life lacks the handwavium and magic and what not.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
You follow orders or you do not. There is no choice for Guard. No switching on and off.

This is incorrect. You can and most militates do both. If your have standard orders of " Act accordingly to as you feel best" it does not countermand direct orders telling you to do something else.

Act as you feel best?
That so far from the system the IG uses as it can get. The IG is stuck with outdated concepts, rather acting like "send in the next wave", WW1 style charging against emplaced machine guns if you believe GW.
Conflicting orders are the last thing any one needs. Thats why orders are represented now with a risk of misinterpreting them.
Still its a 0 or 1 decision. Follow that order or don't. So correctly its impossible to ignore an order. And thats what I have stated.

The Guard cannot ignore organizations with a lot of influence, as this cardinal may talk to your superior and you are in trouble.
Doesn't happen to marines. Have this cardinal whine all he wants, its unlikely he gets to have it his way. Sure not every complaint is ignored, but the risk of IG is multitudes higher than marines when it comes to an attempt to ruin your day.

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:If the Astartes were to vanish (an unlikely scenario given how well they sell, but we're talking hypotheticals here), all it would take is a few votes in the Imperial High Lords of Terra and the Sisters could get their own naval force to act in the same way that Marines do

True, if the Marines vanished you could replace them with another force, but thats really the point. If you got rid of them you'd need to replace them with a very similar force. The role they fill is vital.

In that case we agree here. I think Sisters could do it better due to loyalty issues but that's an entirely separate argument, this thread is about Guard, after all.

1hadhq wrote:

Reinforcement isn't happening. Trust the IG codices. The vostroyans are maybe what you are thinking of, but they are a bit special because of their history and the price to pay for their actions.
Sure, honored units will be raised again, but these are new units. New, as another tithe.

I think you may be correct on what i was Recalling, however if a new unit was created to fill the role of the SM, it might well break the nominal rules on recruitment.

1hadhq wrote:
I didn't aim to find something you couldn't answer. If you got that impression, your mistaken.
I was curious where you got it. Now, can't check those source I do not own myself.

Sorry , mesageboard posting can sometime infure the wrong idea depending upon the reader.

1hadhq wrote:
You find it odd that I question a source? Why? Because there were never debates about canon/officiality of licensed and sub-companies products? If so, please do a search. You will find plenty of this.
I didn't claim it doesn't count. Just told you I prefer the publications of the company called GW themselves when it comes to validity.
And thus placed the rulebooks , expansions and codices above the sub-companies ( BL / FW ) and the licensed third party works.
A personal choice, I may make without invalidating your preferances.
The one statement I will question, is your idea of it being more reliable than BL.
It is not. It is a version of 40k and like authors of BL adapt the background to create a story, like game designers adapted a few things to create a game worth playing, a company aiming for an RPG will also have their own take. Its in the nature of the product.

See I place the BL stuff at the very bottom because it is far to contradictory. They as a whole seem to countermind the Codex and other fluff sources from the game. Whatever the connection the GW is, the BL is very wishy washy on consistancy and has none to very little. Each "series" of books is a whole different setting more then being set in the same place as the rest. They are just to hit and miss for me to place them as a reliable source. On the other hand FFG stuff as a whole is probliy more consistent then the GW stuff oddly, but that is more a lack of effort on GW part which is a real shame.

1hadhq wrote:
This slight edge isn't so small if you consider we are in 40k background here. A place where the fluff is part of this and in-game effects tend to be dismissed, not without reason.

the issue is which fluff? Gw is inconsistent and the BL is better off not brought up as they are GOD or just a wee bit better all depending upon the book and writer. The stuff I count is GW and FFG, which place them as damned scary,however the Edge is not something that can not be overcome with numbers.

1hadhq wrote:
No. They can't.
Your running in circles.
The Guard has a purpose, as laid out in the background section of rulebooks and codices for years and several editions.

Yes they can. You are not getting what am saying man. If there was a real need to make a "Unit" to fill the role of the Sm, then the guard could provide it. Not the current guard, not a replacement but they already field "Specialized " regiments. The current Guard would remain unchanged, but it would be very easy to tell some worlds "Craft me x type of unit". It would not be as good man per man, but it could do the job.

1hadhq wrote:
So if if you got no argument, you flee to heresy?
'The Emperor already had a first batch of super-soldiers to conquer Terra, the thunder warriors.
He had some gene - enhanced humans too, when the crusade began. Both concepts given up on.
The Primarchs were never meant to act alone. Thus astartes aren't a back up as you claim.
They are a lesser copy. A master copy, the Primarch. Even without the Primarchs he could create the Legions.
So you think he failed. He didn't fail to reconquer the realm humanity had settled before the age age, with his Leg

I am going off three online wikis and what I have read. The Plan was to feth with Chaos, it was to breed super humans to starve them. He thought he had. He was incorrect. And yes the Astarte were crafted after his "Master Plan" got pulled into the warp. The thunder warriors were not Astarte. He failed to do what he set out to do, starve the chaos gods. Good effort however.

1hadhq wrote:

The Guard got Cruddaced, and is now billions of regiments. Doesn't add up to thousands of trillions a sector methinks...

I do not follow man. The Codex gives a few hard numbers. Exsample a regiment is between 250 men for a super heavy tank regiment to 120'000 Men for a light infantry regiment. Now we know a world can raise betwen a hundren million and five million , it says so on page 8. This is per world. a poor ag world raise 5 million now, It says when Waraagh Grax hit Evey world in 10 Ly were ordered to pull an extra fifty regiments each. Now if we take the Codex as canon and its minmun of 5 million men per world, and yes the FFG sector map as it has worlds in a map. we get no less then 665 million troops per tithe in one sector, although the many hives would produce more but still that adds to trillions damned fast.

1hadhq wrote:

Really? BL and its HH series is a sub-company of GW. No third party stranger and thjis author worked as game designer before...at GW.
Just throwing in.

Really?,This I did not know and honesty makes me like them less. If it is an In House thing, then in inconsistency issues are unforgivable.

1hadhq wrote:
Easy to produce if its for a RPG to grant access everywhere to a wide list of items.
Not so easy to produce if its main line the TT. They like this "relic" , " lost tech" etc pp idea too much.

The RPG is not easy to get ahold of really, they have a really good system for rarity. That being said on a forge world, where you crank stuff out all the time and that is all you do is export stuff. "Rare" is not what ya think it is. They only may make a few thousand or hundred, and the coast puts it out of hands of almost everyone. But there is that Titheing thing again. Power armory is mostly unused by the guard because of its rarity, cost and yes SM taboo.

1hadhq wrote:

Act as you feel best?
That so far from the system the IG uses as it can get. The IG is stuck with outdated concepts, rather acting like "send in the next wave", WW1 style charging against emplaced machine guns if you believe GW.
Conflicting orders are the last thing any one needs. Thats why orders are represented now with a risk of misinterpreting them.
Still its a 0 or 1 decision. Follow that order or don't. So correctly its impossible to ignore an order. And thats what I have stated.

you are not understanding man. If a Unit were made to replace the SM, they would not be a standard Guard unit. The Guard already do the "Act as you think best" the Ranking offer in any givin section often has to make calls and act before he can get a response back from terra or his segaturm commander. This is also covered in the Codex. Unless they have orders not to do a thing, Guard high command structure always "Do as they think best"