He can't ever really "leave" the warp. He "appears" (or is summoned?) for a battle and then promptly gets sucked back into the warp again. Is GW really giving us a clue to the nature of 6th edition and the Emperor as a Chaos God of order with the story of Draigo? Would Draigo be the first "demon prince of order"? (Or Sanquinor?)

Or is GW trying to say that the Grey Knights really are corrupted by Chaos and yet they don't even know it?

Is it possible that Draigo actually died fighting M'kar, and just was "reborn" in the realm of Chaos? The direct passage from the codex says that M'Kar grasped his throat and cast him into the vortex. Could that not just be a fancy metaphor for killing him and his spirit just awoke in the warp? I mean, it even says the Draigo reforged his sword with warp metal. Shouldn't that not be possible for a mortal?

Yes, he's effectively a being of the warp, fuss in the eyes of the Imperium a Daemon. I wounder if the Inquisition should have a look into this.....

That Draigo is actually some kind of "daemon of Law" is one of the ways in which people have tried to make his ghastly fluff more bearable.

Sadly, it is not specifically supported anywhere in the cavalcade of terrible prose dedicated to him by The Great Beast.

I like to think of Draigo as the Emperor Reincarnated, with all the heresy and Thorian beliefs that come with it.

no he is just really %$#^%%$ annoying

whitedragon wrote:He can't ever really "leave" the warp. He "appears" (or is summoned?) for a battle and then promptly gets sucked back into the warp again. Is GW really giving us a clue to the nature of 6th edition and the Emperor as a Chaos God of order with the story of Draigo? Would Draigo be the first "demon prince of order"? (Or Sanquinor?)

Or is GW trying to say that the Grey Knights really are corrupted by Chaos and yet they don't even know it?

Is it possible that Draigo actually died fighting M'kar, and just was "reborn" in the realm of Chaos? The direct passage from the codex says that M'Kar grasped his throat and cast him into the vortex. Could that not just be a fancy metaphor for killing him and his spirit just awoke in the warp? I mean, it even says the Draigo reforged his sword with warp metal. Shouldn't that not be possible for a mortal?

/tg/ had some hilarious and disturbing story about Draigo or whatever. Pretty much all of his successes and victories are hallucinations caused by the Gods of Chaos as he is literally broken in body, beaten down by M'kar and simply being given the hallucinations as a form of torture. On the other hand I would like the idea of Draigo and Sanguinor being effectively a daemon prince of order if only because it would move the ploy forward.

Buttons wrote:move the ploy forward

Argh. It's a setting, not a story. The plot does not need to move forward, it's a background to the stories you tell with your battles. But I can't stay angry at you, since your username is Buttons, and that's super-cute.

Imperial Daemon!
The first of many to fight the increasing numbers of Chaos Grey Knights!

Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

He is more like a saint. IoM saints are more or less also warp entities. Some of them are "still around" so to speak and some have been known to "Manifest" from time to time.

And no, Matt Ward did not make Chaos Gray Knights. People misreading the codex and twisting it to their own ends did that.

Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

Carnage43 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

I think that it's more a sneaky inference by GW that the grey knights are not as "pure" as they may seem. First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle, then Draigo walks the warp being "summoned" in times of need, and forging his sword out of warp metal. Seems awful demony to me.

This makes me think, what does Draigo do in his downtime?

Draigo is dead. Its just propaganda to give hope to the grey knights.

At least thats how i have to rationalize so it makes sense.

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed) and then used that Blood, along with other ingredients to make a talisman. They then anointed themselves with what was crafted. The blood made up one of many components of the "oil" and you do not "bath" in a anointing. You place a small amount upon the subject (often the forehead) and sometimes in a holy symbol shape and invoke a Godly power, in this case the Emperor of man.

I mean really why must folks keep adding things it simply does not say, while ignoring what it stated they did with the blood?

And the Iom already has a 'God" and Daemons. The Emperor and his saints.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed) and then used that Blood, along with other ingredients to make a talisman. They then anointed themselves with what was crafted. The blood made up one of many components of the "oil" and you do not "bath" in a anointing. You place a small amount upon the subject (often the forehead) and sometimes in a holy symbol shape and invoke a Godly power, in this case the Emperor of man.

I mean really why must folks keep adding things it simply does not say, while ignoring what it stated they did with the blood?

And the Iom already has a 'God" and Daemons. The Emperor and his saints.

So if the GK only needed a small amount to annoint themselves, why kill the sisters? What did they do with the other buckets of blood from the dead sisters?

I can understand killing one to get her blood, just not all of them.

whitedragon wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

I think that it's more a sneaky inference by GW that the grey knights are not as "pure" as they may seem. First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle, then Draigo walks the warp being "summoned" in times of need, and forging his sword out of warp metal. Seems awful demony to me.

No, it's just Kroothawk being Kroothawk.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed).

If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice

3) the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

The sisters were "sacrificed" to gain components for the talisman. And Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, so their deaths did strengthen Khorne. This is precisely the reason that chaos is so powerful and dangerous, because even the actions used to stop such demonic forces are of the same nature and can strengthen them against the intentions of those doing the cleansing.

Also, the words used in the codex are very telling, the author chose them for a reason. Lets examine the actual passage shall we?

Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

1) "turn their blades" is a very deliberate statement that gives the impression that the sisters were either unwilling or unprepared to be used as components. You don't "turn" your blade on your ally, you do so against an enemy or foe that needs to be defeated or what have you, so its very telling that the author of the story uses this imagery. Otherwise the passage could have read "The surviving sisters willingly offered their lifeblood for the grey knights" or something. See the difference? It's hidden in an entire codex that speaks of Grey Knight purity, so you almost don't even realize the sinister applications that this imagery evokes. That's pretty powerful I'd say.

2) "innocent blood thus spilled" doesn't seem to me to imply that the Grey Knights collected samples via syringe and dabbed it where they wanted it. Usually when you "spill" blood, you are killing somebody or cutting them and blood is literally spilling from the wound. This to me means that blood was pretty much running all over the place as the Grey Knights blades were hacking Sisters apart. Now if you imagine the Grey Knights did this methodically or not, it doesn't matter, the author definitely chose to say "Spilled blood" rather than "the sisters held out their arms for blood samples". They Grey Knights are definitely butchering sisters here. And since the grey knights are described as warriors/monks/psykers/demonology scholars without equal, you can probably imagine they were hacking with pretty ruthless efficiency. The author likely intended us to pause and think about that while writing that story.

This isn't an innocent story.

Now on the other hand, this has nothing to do with this thread so I'd also ask that you please stay on topic to discuss the nature of Draigo's demonhood.

In any event, with the little bit of evidence we have, its still murky as to what Draigo is, but we can surmise that since mortals can't generally survive in the warp, its possible that when M'Kar gripped him by the throat with his talons and cast him into the warp that this is a metaphor or reference to Draigo actually dieing and finding himself awoken as a spirit in the warp. Maybe because of his Grey Knight purity he was able to maintain himself and his sanity, but otherwise how else would he be "bound" to the warp and forced to be sucked back in after entering realspace again and again? Surely his aegis and psychic defenses would have prevented whatever spell M'kar could have woven on him.

well mephiston is a daemon prince so whynot draigo :3


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whitedragon wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed).

If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice

3) the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

The sisters were "sacrificed" to gain components for the talisman. And Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, so their deaths did strengthen Khorne. This is precisely the reason that chaos is so powerful and dangerous, because even the actions used to stop such demonic forces are of the same nature and can strengthen them against the intentions of those doing the cleansing.

Also, the words used in the codex are very telling, the author chose them for a reason. Lets examine the actual passage shall we?

Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

1) "turn their blades" is a very deliberate statement that gives the impression that the sisters were either unwilling or unprepared to be used as components. You don't "turn" your blade on your ally, you do so against an enemy or foe that needs to be defeated or what have you, so its very telling that the author of the story uses this imagery. Otherwise the passage could have read "The surviving sisters willingly offered their lifeblood for the grey knights" or something. See the difference? It's hidden in an entire codex that speaks of Grey Knight purity, so you almost don't even realize the sinister applications that this imagery evokes. That's pretty powerful I'd say.

2) "innocent blood thus spilled" doesn't seem to me to imply that the Grey Knights collected samples via syringe and dabbed it where they wanted it. Usually when you "spill" blood, you are killing somebody or cutting them and blood is literally spilling from the wound. This to me means that blood was pretty much running all over the place as the Grey Knights blades were hacking Sisters apart. Now if you imagine the Grey Knights did this methodically or not, it doesn't matter, the author definitely chose to say "Spilled blood" rather than "the sisters held out their arms for blood samples". They Grey Knights are definitely butchering sisters here. And since the grey knights are described as warriors/monks/psykers/demonology scholars without equal, you can probably imagine they were hacking with pretty ruthless efficiency. The author likely intended us to pause and think about that while writing that story.

This isn't an innocent story.

Now on the other hand, this has nothing to do with this thread so I'd also ask that you please stay on topic to discuss the nature of Draigo's demonhood.

In any event, with the little bit of evidence we have, its still murky as to what Draigo is, but we can surmise that since mortals can't generally survive in the warp, its possible that when M'Kar gripped him by the throat with his talons and cast him into the warp that this is a metaphor or reference to Draigo actually dieing and finding himself awoken as a spirit in the warp. Maybe because of his Grey Knight purity he was able to maintain himself and his sanity, but otherwise how else would he be "bound" to the warp and forced to be sucked back in after entering realspace again and again? Surely his aegis and psychic defenses would have prevented whatever spell M'kar could have woven on him.

that would also imply that they dont have pure/innocent blood

Can this not be another bloodtide thread, we already have one of those on the front page of this very subforum!

DPBellathrom wrote:well mephiston is a daemon prince so whynot draigo :3

I'm not sure that Mephiston is a "demon prince" per se, because Demons usually can only last for so long in the material world before their bodies wither and they get sucked back into the warp (kinda like Draigo), but it is possible that he may have been possessed by a demon while in the throes of the Red Thirst. That could explain why he is such a monster statwise!

Why does this thread make me think an "Angels of the emperor" codex is coming?

Let's check your evidence shall we?

Lives in the Warp? Check.

Emerges only when the barrier between reality and Warp is weak? Check.

Returns after done? Check.

Ridiculously Grimdark and overthetop powerful? Check.

Spends his time attempting to destroy Chaos and disrupt the plans of the Chaos Gods? Check.

Conclusion:


















Dear gods, he's a Daemon Prince of Malal!

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

So if the GK only needed a small amount to annoint themselves, why kill the sisters? What did they do with the other buckets of blood from the dead sisters?

I can understand killing one to get her blood, just not all of them.

Well by the Codex there were not many sisters left. And as to why, we do not know. It may have required the last three drops from a heart, ot the blood taken from the blade that priced the heart or what have you. We are unsure why, but the talisman required it. This we know, as to what the rite to craft it entailed, that is left unsaid.

whitedragon wrote:[
If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.


Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

It does not say they were murdered, nor does it say the volunteered. But saying they were murder is as made up as saying they went willingly. It simply does not say and "Hacking them apart" is not in the book or even implied in the book and "Bathing in blood" is outright false as the book tells you just what they did with the blood. As for sacrifice, that is not how you guys use it. people always seem to use term 1, when in fact the death of the SoB was not part of the rite. They simply needed the blood. The death of the sisters were not part of the rite, which is what you implied.

And yes it was not nice,not good and shiny. They are the freaking Inquisition. They do not do good and shiny, they do dirty, vile and necessary. They do things other folks flinch from and do not have the fortitude to do.

whitedragon wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:well mephiston is a daemon prince so whynot draigo :3

I'm not sure that Mephiston is a "demon prince" per se, because Demons usually can only last for so long in the material world before their bodies wither and they get sucked back into the warp (kinda like Draigo), but it is possible that he may have been possessed by a demon while in the throes of the Red Thirst. That could explain why he is such a monster statwise!

nah Iwas just joking about mephy though he has the same stat line as one :3

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:[
If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.

Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

It does not say they were murdered, nor does it say the volunteered. But saying they were murder is as made up as saying they went willingly. It simply does not say and "Hacking them apart" is not in the book or even implied in the book and "Bathing in blood" is outright false as the book tells you just what they did with the blood. As for sacrifice, that is not how you guys use it. people always seem to use term 1, when in fact the death of the SoB was not part of the rite. They simply needed the blood. The death of the sisters were not part of the rite, which is what you implied.

And yes it was not nice,not good and shiny. They are the freaking Inquisition. They do not do good and shiny, they do dirty, vile and necessary. They do things other folks flinch from and do not have the fortitude to do.

That's kinda the point isn't it? Aside from you glossing over the points I made, the authors want to tell us the sisters probably weren't killed nicely. And there are things known as "context clues" that can help us determine what was going on at the time of the bloodtide, and I'd say the evidence points more strongly towards sister blood getting splattered all over the place vice calmly placing them in the "sister blood juicer" and then letting them expire peacefully.

So knowing that, which you admit to yourself that it was not good, nice or shiny, we can only conclude that Khorne was just as pleased that sisters died and whether they were killed by the Bloodtide, Chaos Warriors, or Grey Knights, Khorne was still just as pleased. It almost makes you wonder if that wasn't what Khorne had in mind all along? As we all know, the path to damnation is paved with good intentions.

EDIT:

And yeah, it is pretty funny that Meph has DP stats, although I think the GW writers like to have fun with this sort of thing so we can get this kind of speculation going.

Then entire Blood Tide story reeks of casual misogyny.

Whaaaaat, just cause some women get killed?, if you didn't have such a post count I would call troll here.

Then Wh40k is full of Misandry, because men get killed constantly

Platuan4th wrote:Then entire Blood Tide story reeks of casual misogyny.

jgehunter wrote:Whaaaaat, just cause some women get killed?, if you didn't have such a post count I would call troll here.

Then Wh40k is full of Misandry, because men get killed constantly

That doesn't mean that you can ignore an example of casual misogyny when you see it. That's what perpetuates it!

And I shall ask again, how does?:

women getting killed in the 40k universe = Misogyny

If instead of sisters they killed guardsmen, there would still be debate over it but, would you say it is "casual Misandry"

jgehunter wrote:And I shall ask again, how does?:

women getting killed in the 40k universe = Misogyny

If instead of sisters they killed guardsmen, there would still be debate over it but, would you say it is "casual Misandry"

Killing defenseless nuns = misogyny.

Killing male soldiers = war.

Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB.

I think the Blood Tide tries to emulate the witch hunters and Inquisition of the Medieval Ages. They are performing atrocities, but do so in the name of good/God/The Emperor. Countless innocents died in the Medieval Ages in the name of God and the Grey Knights are very heavily themed on the institutions that perpetuated these acts.

It still surprises me that people are shocked at the Grey Knight fluff, when it's almost a mirror of history.

Platuan4th wrote:
Killing defenseless nuns = misogyny.
Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB.

And nothing says they aren't....

whitedragon wrote:
That's kinda the point isn't it? Aside from you glossing over the points I made, the authors want to tell us the sisters probably weren't killed nicely. And there are things known as "context clues" that can help us determine what was going on at the time of the bloodtide, and I'd say the evidence points more strongly towards sister blood getting splattered all over the place vice calmly placing them in the "sister blood juicer" and then letting them expire peacefully.

So knowing that, which you admit to yourself that it was not good, nice or shiny, we can only conclude that Khorne was just as pleased that sisters died and whether they were killed by the Bloodtide, Chaos Warriors, or Grey Knights, Khorne was still just as pleased. It almost makes you wonder if that wasn't what Khorne had in mind all along? As we all know, the path to damnation is paved with good intentions.

I did not gloss over your point, I honestly didn''t see one. There are many context clues listed, none point to anything you said. They do not point to blood scarifce, they do not point to body hacking and they do not point to bloodbathing. Khorne was not pleased, the GK do not feed him, that is one thing they can not do. The warp Gods and other warp entities can not feed off GK's. That is stated on page 7 in black and white. They can do the vilest, foulest warp endorsed sorcery with zero fallout to themselves and none to the warp critters. And the SoD death was not even big enough for a real footnote of vile things the Inquisition have done, even the most puritan would have not blinked at bio-bombing the whole world and counting any "friendlies" as acceptable loses with a shrug.

So no, the warp gods were not happy, the daemons where not happy. They did not get feed and in fact the sisters death lead to the destruction of chaos's forces that day, they died for the good of the IoM. I really wish people would read things they use in place of repeating false info others have stated online.

Platuan4th wrote:
Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?
They are specifically referred to as Sister of Battle in the Blood Tide. Have you read the story?
Are you trolling?

edits: getting quotes working

Dunwich wrote:I think the Blood Tide tries to emulate the witch hunters and Inquisition of the Medieval Ages. They are performing atrocities, but do so in the name of good/God/The Emperor. Countless innocents died in the Medieval Ages in the name of God and the Grey Knights are very heavily themed on the institutions that perpetuated these acts.

It still surprises me that people are shocked at the Grey Knight fluff, when it's almost a mirror of history.

Total agreement. The SoB thing is blown way out of proportion, and many add falsehoods that are not in the book. The Inquisition does way, way worse things then killing a few nuns for the greater good. Every.Single.Day. And twice on Tuesdays.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:
That's kinda the point isn't it? Aside from you glossing over the points I made, the authors want to tell us the sisters probably weren't killed nicely. And there are things known as "context clues" that can help us determine what was going on at the time of the bloodtide, and I'd say the evidence points more strongly towards sister blood getting splattered all over the place vice calmly placing them in the "sister blood juicer" and then letting them expire peacefully.

So knowing that, which you admit to yourself that it was not good, nice or shiny, we can only conclude that Khorne was just as pleased that sisters died and whether they were killed by the Bloodtide, Chaos Warriors, or Grey Knights, Khorne was still just as pleased. It almost makes you wonder if that wasn't what Khorne had in mind all along? As we all know, the path to damnation is paved with good intentions.

I did not gloss over your point, I honestly didn''t see one. There are many context clues listed, none point to anything you said . They do not point to blood scarifce, they do not point to body hacking and they do not point to bloodbathing. Khorne was not pleased, the GK do not feed him, that is one thing they can not do. The warp Gods and other warp entities can not feed off GK's. That is stated on page 7 in black and white. They can do the vilest, foulest warp endorsed sorcery with zero fallout to themselves and none to the warp critters. And the SoD death was not even big enough for a real footnote of vile things the Inquisition have done, even the most puritan would have not blinked at bio-bombing the whole world and counting any "friendlies" as acceptable loses with a shrug.

So no, the warp gods were not happy, the daemons where not happy. They did not get feed and in fact the sisters death lead to the destruction of chaos's forces that day, they died for the good of the IoM. I really wish people would read things they use in place of repeating false info others have stated online.

Then you must not have read the part where it said they "SPILLED THE SISTERS BLOOD" and "TURNED THEIR BLADES ON THEM". That's on page 15 of the Grey Knight codex, in case you glossed over my post. (Which you said you didn't but since you didn't see that part I have to assume you did. Are you going to say that turning your blades on your allies and spilling their blood is not a gruesome way to kill someone? Almost (or exactly like) they were murdered or sacrificed? How else can someone have their blood spilled and yet not be murder or sacrifice? And don't say "war" because we all know that's just government sanctioned murder. And Khorne likes blood spilling or do you debate that too? I can find a quote in the Chaos codex if you like.

So what "false info" are you talking about? Do you have links to some of this stuff? I'm genuinely curious now and find it quite strange that there are folks on the internet that would make up false things when its pretty easy to read it straight out of the codex. I'll have to agree with you there on that one.

Its threads like this that make me regret associating with gamers.

Can we have less QQ about the background story of our toy soldiers, and more fun just playing the game?

Dunwich wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?
They are specifically referred to as Sister of Battle in the Blood Tide. Have you read the story?
Are you trolling?

edits: getting quotes working

The Orders Hospitaller, Dialogous, and Famulous are also called "Sisters of Battle" but are non-militant orders.

Eidolon wrote:Its threads like this that make me regret associating with gamers.

Can we have less QQ about the background story of our toy soldiers, and more fun just playing the game?

You can also use the yellow triangle of friendship too! Can we please stay on topic here? My mates and I are having a friendly spirited discussion on the corruptibility of a Grey Knight's soul, and how their power feeds their demon prince in the warp, Draigo. If you don't wish to participate, you are totally free to not even open the thread!

Remember, the triangle is always there, always faithful.

Even if they were not order militant it would still not be misogyny, the GK simply needed/wanted to get blood, they didn't mind if it was from nuns or from priests, you know that misogyny means "hatred of women" and gender had no place in the incident.

not only that but hes a gay demon

Well the issues is not that write up, but the fact GW has a history of using SoB as poor canon fodder with what looks to be a composition among the writers to see who can kill more or them and in how many horrid ways.

jgehunter wrote:Even if they were not order militant it would still not be misogyny, the GK simply needed/wanted to get blood, they didn't mind if it was from nuns or from priests, you know that misogyny means "hatred of women" and gender had no place in the incident.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Well the issues is not that write up, but the fact GW has a history of using SoB as poor canon fodder with what looks to be a composition among the writers to see who can kill more or them and in how many horrid ways.

Hunter is right, the GW authors never seem to miss an opportunity to spill some sister blood, or use them as the Damsels in Distress, or any other way to show just how...crappy their order really is.

Platuan4th wrote:

Dunwich wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?
They are specifically referred to as Sister of Battle in the Blood Tide. Have you read the story?
Are you trolling?

edits: getting quotes working

The Orders Hospitaller, Dialogous, and Famulous are also called "Sisters of Battle" but are non-militant orders.

They are the Order of the Ebon Chalice, a militant order. Please, read the story.

Platuan4th wrote:
Dear gods, he's a Daemon Prince of Malal!

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! The Black and white space marine on the black and white bike! All those Imperial skulls! The Imperal Daemons! The Star Child! The mysterious chaos power aiding Cypher...


THE EMPEROR *IS* MALAL!

Dunwich wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Dunwich wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?
They are specifically referred to as Sister of Battle in the Blood Tide. Have you read the story?
Are you trolling?

edits: getting quotes working

The Orders Hospitaller, Dialogous, and Famulous are also called "Sisters of Battle" but are non-militant orders.

They are the Order of the Ebon Chalice, a militant order. Please, read the story.

The retinues of a Cannones include a Hospitaller and Dialogous at times, so it's not completely off the wall to assume that they were present during this engagement.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Dear gods, he's a Daemon Prince of Malal!

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW! The Black and white space marine on the black and white bike! All those Imperial skulls! The Imperal Daemons! The Star Child! The mysterious chaos power aiding Cypher...


THE EMPEROR *IS* MALAL!

Do you think Draigo met the Black and White Space Marine on the Black and White Bike in the warp? Would they be friend or foe? And can you really say Draigo is still loyal after all that time in the warp?

^ Never said they didn't include Hospitallers and Dialogous, which actively go to battle with the other sisters. I don't even see what your point is.

I was refuting "Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB." Which is a flat out lie.

whitedragon wrote:
The Orders Hospitaller, Dialogous, and Famulous are also called "Sisters of Battle" but are non-militant orders.

whitedragon wrote:
Do you think Draigo met the Black and White Space Marine on the Black and White Bike in the warp? Would they be friend or foe? And can you really say Draigo is still loyal after all that time in the warp?

Hmm.... I can't say that I've ever seen servants of Malal unite against anything... they're mostly loners that like to dick over the other chaos gods... Though I suspect that the Black and White Space marine is somehow Malal's answer to Doomrider...

That would make him pretty strait laced. I'd say he and Draigo would probably get on well together...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jgehunter wrote:
So at max we have....2 individuals that aren't militants

I would imagine you probably have more than that. Hospitlars are some tough dames since they also accompany Inquisitors into battle and, in fluff, have made 'nid burger from tyranids trying to break into a hospital, a well as fought rogue psykers along side thier sisters from the more militant orders...

Platuan4th wrote:

jgehunter wrote:And I shall ask again, how does?:

women getting killed in the 40k universe = Misogyny

If instead of sisters they killed guardsmen, there would still be debate over it but, would you say it is "casual Misandry"

Killing defenseless nuns = misogyny.

Killing male soldiers = war.

Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB.

You creating an artificial distinction between male soldiers and female soldiers is misogynistic. Not the Bloodtide story.

I doubt that the sisters were defenseless they did fight off the bloodtide unaided and I doubt that anything short of a stubborn skilled defence would keep out a chaos army.

Kaldor wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

jgehunter wrote:And I shall ask again, how does?:

women getting killed in the 40k universe = Misogyny

If instead of sisters they killed guardsmen, there would still be debate over it but, would you say it is "casual Misandry"

Killing defenseless nuns = misogyny.

Killing male soldiers = war.

Nothing in the story says they're the Nuns with Guns style SoB.

You creating an artificial distinction between male soldiers and female soldiers is misogynistic. Not the Bloodtide story.

By refusing to believe that such a thing exists, ie turning a blind eye, you perpetuate the act of casual misogyny!

Hunterindarkness wrote:
Total agreement. The SoB thing is blown way out of proportion, and many add falsehoods that are not in the book. The Inquisition does way, way worse things then killing a few nuns for the greater good. Every.Single.Day. And twice on Tuesdays.

The SoB does way worse things on a daily basis. They're only job is to torture and murder people that may or may not be "heretics". Seeing if such a thing is actually true is not part of their job.

whitedragon wrote:By refusing to believe that such a thing exists, ie turning a blind eye, you perpetuate the act of casual misogyny!

Sure do! But this is not an instance of it. In fact, insisting that it IS an instance of it is YOU being misogynistic! YOU are in fact the one perpetuating it.

Completely agree with Kaldor on this one, the continual assertion that SoB are defenseless is far more misogynistic than the Blood Tide story.

Dunwich wrote:Completely agree with Kaldor on this one, the continual assertion that SoB are defenseless is far more misogynistic than the Blood Tide story.

We seem to have veered pretty far off topic here, I'd ask that we get back to the Draigo/Demon connection please.

The sisters stuff is pretty interesting though, yet I don't think it's as clear cut as you guys are trying to make it. GW clearly uses Sisters as the "whipping girls" of the 41st millenium.

While they do use them as whipping girls, this was not a case of that. The issue is however they bash them soooooooooo often folks have been trained to attribute any SoB death as SoB fodder writing.


As to the topic on hand, he is a saint, which is the IoM's and the "God- Emperor. warp entries. No one that hates him or Ward's stuff is gonna like that, but it does not change it. The servants of the big E are not daemons. They are saints.

Hunterindarkness wrote:While they do use them as whipping girls, this was not a case of that. The issue is however they bash them soooooooooo often folks have been trained to attribute any SoB death as SoB fodder writing.


As to the topic on hand, he is a saint, which is the IoM's and the "God- Emperor. warp entries. No one that hates him or Ward's stuff is gonna like that, but it does not change it. The servants of the big E are not daemons. They are saints.

Being turned into a talisman so the big bad manly grey knights can swoop in to the rescue could be construed many different ways as being demeaning to women, even without all the other Sisters of Battle fluff.

Also, where does it mention in the codex that Draigo is a saint? I couldn't find it on his page in the codex? (although I admit I was just skimming for the "warp metal" bit.)

SoB:
The sisters were done, it says so in the Codex, they were more or less a handful, most having turned or died and they were losing the fight. It was not an if, only a win they lost it question.And they did not recuse the sisters, they never where they to rescue anyone. That is not what they do. They were there to stop chaos by any means necessary.

I agree they are often demeaning with the sisters and seem to take glee in finding new and interesting way for them to be massacred with little value.

The bloodtide was not one of those, it showed for one how bad ass they were by holding out that long and two had a real reason they died. Not to die just to be drying but because the Knights needed the blood of innocents.





Thread topic:
I didn't say in the codex, I said in the context of this thread he is a saint. Servants of the IoM become saints, which are the same thing was the Chaos God's Demon and such. As every point listed matches a Saint as well.

If you are gonna declare him a "warp entity" then the type he is would be clear. He is more or less treated like a saint anyhow.

whitedragon wrote:GW clearly uses Sisters as the "whipping girls" of the 41st millenium.

Nonsense. Theres like, four recorded incidents of the Sisters getting 'whipped' and at least as many instances of their victories.

Kaldor wrote:

whitedragon wrote:GW clearly uses Sisters as the "whipping girls" of the 41st millenium.

Nonsense. Theres like, four recorded incidents of the Sisters getting 'whipped' and at least as many instances of their victories.

I'm going to assume you just haven't read all that much GW fluff, as I can find more than "four" instances just in the Sisters of Battle codex! I respectfully disagree.

In any event, basically I guess we can all agree that Draigo is a demon, though, since no one has shown anything to refute that, and the codex makes it pretty clear that he is no longer natural.

whitedragon wrote:
In any event, basically I guess we can all agree that Draigo is a demon, though, since no one has shown anything to refute that, and the codex makes it pretty clear that he is no longer natural.

I disagree, that makes him a saint.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:
In any event, basically I guess we can all agree that Draigo is a demon, though, since no one has shown anything to refute that, and the codex makes it pretty clear that he is no longer natural.

I disagree, that makes him a saint.

Neither statement is sufficiently well-founded to be unequivocally agreed-upon; the two, however, are not necessarily mutually-exclusive.

Saint/daemon are really the same "Class" of warp entity. The only difference is who they serve and what they plan for humanity.

Hunterindarkness wrote: Saint/daemon are really the same "Class" of warp entity. The only difference is who they serve and what they plan for humanity.

Reasonable speculation, but still speculation. I like the idea myself, but it's not a conclusion unequivocally supported in the fluff.

The fluff isn't supported in the fluff. This is 40k we are talking about where 'Official" fluff often contradicts itself and writers flat out ignore past fluff to make whatever they are currently work on function.


Speculation is all we ever have

He is only banished there for 10,000 years that is how long the curse will last then he be mortal again

Bassline wrote:He is only banished there for 10,000 years that is how long the curse will last then he be mortal again

I dunno, alot can happen in 10,000 years. And also to Hunter's point, I believe Saints are venerated in Imperial Doctrine (or what have you), and since the Grey Knights must be kept secret from the Imperium proper, I'd say it would be pretty difficult to make Draigo a Saint.

On another note, if Draigo really is a demon, could it be part of Tzeentch's plan to finally corrupt the Grey Knights from within? Draigo was greeted as a brother by the other Grey Knights when he emerged from the warp, so if he is a demon than presumably they would be consorting with the enemy.

whitedragon wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

whitedragon wrote:First they bathe in the blood of Sisters of Battle.

I keep seeing this incorrect statement. This is not what is written in the Codex, you guys just keep adding things that are simply not there. What the codex says is that the Knights killed the sisters (It does not state murder and they were NOT sacrificed).

If they weren't "murdered", and they weren't "sacrificed", and yet they still ended up dead...then what is it then, a vivisection? Even if it was "voluntary", it can still be a sacrifice of the sisters to make a talisman.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sacrifice

3) the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

The sisters were "sacrificed" to gain components for the talisman. And Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, so their deaths did strengthen Khorne. This is precisely the reason that chaos is so powerful and dangerous, because even the actions used to stop such demonic forces are of the same nature and can strengthen them against the intentions of those doing the cleansing.

Also, the words used in the codex are very telling, the author chose them for a reason. Lets examine the actual passage shall we?

Grey Knights Codex Pg 15:

"Nedding a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtides' taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving sisters of battle (1). The innocent blood thus spilled (2) is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights armor and weapons."

1) "turn their blades" is a very deliberate statement that gives the impression that the sisters were either unwilling or unprepared to be used as components. You don't "turn" your blade on your ally, you do so against an enemy or foe that needs to be defeated or what have you, so its very telling that the author of the story uses this imagery. Otherwise the passage could have read "The surviving sisters willingly offered their lifeblood for the grey knights" or something. See the difference? It's hidden in an entire codex that speaks of Grey Knight purity, so you almost don't even realize the sinister applications that this imagery evokes. That's pretty powerful I'd say.

2) "innocent blood thus spilled" doesn't seem to me to imply that the Grey Knights collected samples via syringe and dabbed it where they wanted it. Usually when you "spill" blood, you are killing somebody or cutting them and blood is literally spilling from the wound. This to me means that blood was pretty much running all over the place as the Grey Knights blades were hacking Sisters apart. Now if you imagine the Grey Knights did this methodically or not, it doesn't matter, the author definitely chose to say "Spilled blood" rather than "the sisters held out their arms for blood samples". They Grey Knights are definitely butchering sisters here. And since the grey knights are described as warriors/monks/psykers/demonology scholars without equal, you can probably imagine they were hacking with pretty ruthless efficiency. The author likely intended us to pause and think about that while writing that story.

This isn't an innocent story.

Now on the other hand, this has nothing to do with this thread so I'd also ask that you please stay on topic to discuss the nature of Draigo's demonhood.

In any event, with the little bit of evidence we have, its still murky as to what Draigo is, but we can surmise that since mortals can't generally survive in the warp, its possible that when M'Kar gripped him by the throat with his talons and cast him into the warp that this is a metaphor or reference to Draigo actually dieing and finding himself awoken as a spirit in the warp. Maybe because of his Grey Knight purity he was able to maintain himself and his sanity, but otherwise how else would he be "bound" to the warp and forced to be sucked back in after entering realspace again and again? Surely his aegis and psychic defenses would have prevented whatever spell M'kar could have woven on him.

okay what you didn't read is before the grey knights arrived the blood tide drove the sisters insane (or made them explode) and in their insanity they started attacking anything that moved

and on to the points i have for this argument

First: the definition of deamon in the tacticia imperialis is a being spawned of the warp (in a nut shell) so Draigo doesn't fit the budget because its Mkar's curse that traps him in the warp
he didn't come from the warp

Second: i have read extensively on deamons and the grey knights and none of the deamons the grey knights have encountered could kill a mortal and then turn him into a deamon

Third: even if Draigo has been corrupted when he goes into battle with his brothers he comes into contact with purifiers who can sense warp taint and who would try to kill Draigo if he was tainted

Forth: you have to through out the argument of the Sanguinor being a deamons prince because no where in his lore does it say the Sanguinor comes from the warp so he cant even be tainted let alone a deamon

Fifth: if you had actually read the grey knights codex you would have seen that the grey knights firmly believe that the way to beat deamons is to use there own weapons against them and also in the lexicanum it states that those touched by the warp can use many of the items used by deamons so that explains the use of warp metal to reforge his sword.

Sixth and lastly: if the imperium did have any deamons the closest things would be saints and the legion because the formers divine heritage and the latter because they have been in the warp for centuries and it has obviously effected them

and like Hunterindarkness said you guys need to read the books before you say whats in them and don't leave out the parts that don't go along with your stories

whitedragon wrote:He can't ever really "leave" the warp. He "appears" (or is summoned?) for a battle and then promptly gets sucked back into the warp again. Is GW really giving us a clue to the nature of 6th edition and the Emperor as a Chaos God of order with the story of Draigo? Would Draigo be the first "demon prince of order"? (Or Sanquinor?)

Or is GW trying to say that the Grey Knights really are corrupted by Chaos and yet they don't even know it?

Is it possible that Draigo actually died fighting M'kar, and just was "reborn" in the realm of Chaos? The direct passage from the codex says that M'Kar grasped his throat and cast him into the vortex. Could that not just be a fancy metaphor for killing him and his spirit just awoke in the warp? I mean, it even says the Draigo reforged his sword with warp metal. Shouldn't that not be possible for a mortal?

All of that is possible, but I would be hesitant to ascribe any deeper meaning to anything Ward writes. I seriously doubt there are any clues or fancy metaphors therein, it's just a 12-yo boy throwing stuff on the page that "sounds kewl".

Draigo is an impossibility. He's not in the Eye of Terror, he's in the Warp proper. No psyker is powerful enough to snub the Gods on their own turf. The Emperor couldn't do it, and neither could Magnus. The fluff can be justified, but you have to stretch pretty far to do it:

1.) It's a bedtime story to tell GK initiates to inspire them.
2.) It's an allegory on the hopeless nature of their battle, that no matter what outrageous feats you perform, you can never really win against Chaos.
3.) He's long dead, and the thing appearing out of the Warp to curb-stomp the enemies of the Imperium is some manifestation of their faith and holy fervor.
4.) He's being toyed with, with everything that happens in his passage being essentially a hallucination created by the Gods just to screw with him.

Hunterindarkness wrote:The fluff isn't supported in the fluff. This is 40k we are talking about where 'Official" fluff often contradicts itself and writers flat out ignore past fluff to make whatever they are currently work on function.


Speculation is all we ever have

consider exactly NONE of this is real, it is basically all possible and equally impossible. THIS is Schoedinger's cat people.

now as an avid GK player from their first incarnation, I find Draigo to be REALLY mezmorizing, and equally slowed.

as for him being alive in the warp and unharmed or untainted, I propose the following option:

If indeed he is a TRUE IoM saint, and being a warp entity, then he is not by definition a chaos demon. the Warp simply is. the chaos gods merely reside there. it is equally as possible that "good" (or anti chaos) can reside in the warp so long as they have sufficient power to do so.

Being the Supreme Grand Master and Head of the GK Council, it therefore suggests that Draigo MAY possess the fortitude of charector to endure this banishment.

do I like it? no. but if he appears, and the Brothers around him at any time sensed he was tainted, the Council would have no problem labeling him a heretic and removing him.

re the warp steel part, THAT I have an issue with. the GK's can't use Ordo Hereticus troops or resources because they're tainted. IF warp steel is chaotic, then he shouldn't have it. IF what I said earlier makes sense and indeed, its no more chosen a side than the warp its-self, then its alright by me.

The best way to explain Draigo has absolutely NOTHING to do with Matt Ward, in spite of what all you Ward protesters have to say. In the end, Ward is on GW's paycheck, so he did what they told him to do, and GW okayed it, so stop acting like it's all Ward's fault.

Draigo is the 40K version of Annikin Skywalker. In it's eternal quest to subvert other peoples' intellectual property as it's own, GW created a character that was made out of "the power" itself and brings balance to all things and has the power of chocolate icecream on his side. Draigo is nothing more and nothing less, just a new line of gimmicks to give all the new characters/armies some awesome bad-ass character. Let's face it, the way the codices are written, its like Stan and Marney are better than their parent primarchs which is simply not possible. Abbadon is another example of ridiculous, (with regard to stats, he is pretty much a one-man-army....on that note so is Kharn). Then there's the Necrons that have some crazy characters too, and let's not forget CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED. GW just needed something that fit the GK, and the Skywalker fit the bill amiably.

poda_t wrote:
Draigo is nothing more and nothing less, just a new line of gimmicks to give all the new characters/armies some awesome bad-ass character.

Its also become a little too much IMHO.

Just how many "super powerful" entities are fated to return for a Final Battle that shall never come?

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

poda_t wrote:
Draigo is nothing more and nothing less, just a new line of gimmicks to give all the new characters/armies some awesome bad-ass character.

Its also become a little too much IMHO.

Just how many "super powerful" entities are fated to return for a Final Battle that shall never come?

Well we have
Leman Russ
Lion
Robute Guilliman
Vulkan
Corax
Khan
Thraka
Yarrick
Dante
Every single Phoenix Lord
Bill S. Preston
And Theadore Logan
Spock
The Rock
Doc Ock
And Hulk Hogan

Buttons wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

poda_t wrote:
Draigo is nothing more and nothing less, just a new line of gimmicks to give all the new characters/armies some awesome bad-ass character.

Its also become a little too much IMHO.

Just how many "super powerful" entities are fated to return for a Final Battle that shall never come?

Well we have
Leman Russ
Lion
Robute Guilliman
Vulkan
Corax
Khan
Thraka
Yarrick
Dante
Every single Phoenix Lord
Bill S. Preston
And Theadore Logan
Spock
The Rock
Doc Ock
And Hulk Hogan

I believe that is Bill S. Preston Esquire.

and you left off:

Bruce Lee
Macho man Randy Savage
Evil Kenivel
the X-Men
The Justice League
The SUper Friends
The Animaniacs
Pinky and the Brain
The entire cast of the muppets and the Looney Tunes
and Chuck Norris.

but seriously, HOW do you leave Chuck Norris off that list? better watch out man. he's coming for you....

I actually go that from the song the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny, the names at the end of that list and like 20 others (including every single power ranger) gang up on Chuck Norris.

Here is the section of the song

Then Gandalf the Grey,
And Gandalf the White,
The Monty Python and the Holy Grail's Black Knight,
And Benilo Mussolini,
And the Blue Meanie,
And Cowboy Curtis,
And Jambi the Genie,
Robocop,
The Terminator,
Captain Kirk,
And Darth Vader,
Lo Pan,
Superman,
Every single Power Ranger,
Bill S. Preston,
And Theadore Logan,
Spock,
The Rock,
Doc Ock,
And Hulk Hogan.
All came out of nowhere lightning fast,
And they kicked Chuck Norris in his cowboy ass,
It was the bloodiest battle that the world ever saw,
With civilians looking on in total awe,
The fight raged on for a century,
Many lives were claimed but eventually,
The champion stood,
The rest saw the better,
Mr. Rogers in a blood stained sweater,

Buttons wrote:I actually go that from the song the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny, the names at the end of that list and like 20 others (including every single power ranger) gang up on Chuck Norris.

I kind of hate myself for looking that up.

Carnage43 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

Techniquly there are more than 4 chaos gods, 'The 4' are just the biggest and badest and less subtle of them all

I beleive Draigo is a warp being who has the consience of the form flesh-and-blood-real-universe Draigo and is doing what ever he can to destroy the rest of chaos (The Chaos Gods hate each other, if you didn't know) and if Draigo is really a daemon of the Emporer/Star Child, then he would hate the rest of the chaos stuff as he would have before as a 'true' Grey Knight, if not more so.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Carnage43 wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Mat Ward gave us Chaos Grey Knights, why not also a Grey Knight Daemon Prince

I feel this is sarcasm, but it's also mostly correct.

If you accept that the Emperor is the "5th Warp god", then it makes sense he would have "demons". There's plenty of reports of saints and manifestations of the Emperor's power.

Techniquly there are more than 4 chaos gods, 'The 4' are just the biggest and badest and less subtle of them all

I beleive Draigo is a warp being who has the consience of the form flesh-and-blood-real-universe Draigo and is doing what ever he can to destroy the rest of chaos (The Chaos Gods hate each other, if you didn't know) and if Draigo is really a daemon of the Emporer/Star Child, then he would hate the rest of the chaos stuff as he would have before as a 'true' Grey Knight, if not more so.

except that warp entities gain power by those who believe in them.

if the entire Grey Knight chapter created a warp being (in Draigo) instead of him being trapped, then the entire chapter would be deemed heretics and they'd all kill themselves as an act of faith.

no, I think its just that Draigo is a corporal being trapped in the warp, held up by his strength and fortitude and able to continue the fight in his prison.

if you think about it, it DOES make sense really.

bah who cares, i'm stuck thinking about sisters of battle being whipped (as 40k whipping girls) .... HAWT!....in a friendly consensual way ;D

Rimmy wrote:no, I think its just that Draigo is a corporal being trapped in the warp, held up by his strength and fortitude and able to continue the fight in his prison.

if you think about it, it DOES make sense really.

Knowing what we know about the Warp, no, it doesn't make any sense at all. He's a ghost being screwed with by the Gods, or the whole story is just propaganda/indoctrination for baby GKs.

I think that maybe GW could benefit from having cohesive fluff. None of this alternate universe/writers making things up as they go garbage. They need a codex for the fluff, much like the codex in Mass Effect contains a full log of all of the fluff for the universe.

McNinja wrote:I think that maybe GW could benefit from having cohesive fluff. None of this alternate universe/writers making things up as they go garbage. They need a codex for the fluff, much like the codex in Mass Effect contains a full log of all of the fluff for the universe.

QFT. They need a Setting bible, a Creative director and to freaking enforce those things.

Or fans. Did you perchance see the outrage at the most recent Mass Effect novel? Deception was so full of plot inconsistencies that the fans went and made a four page document detailing every single thing that was wrong with the book. Bioware eventually decided to basically rewrite the book and fix the problems within it. We need that.

The issue is..Bioware cares as it effects sales. GW does not as Fans seem happy enough to buy no matter how crappy it is.

Hunterindarkness wrote:The issue is..Bioware cares as it effects sales. GW does not as Fans seem happy enough to buy no matter how crappy it is.

QFT.

"We're a minis company, not a gaming company."

everyone just calm down, drink the kool-aide and we'll all be better.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:The issue is..Bioware cares as it effects sales. GW does not as Fans seem happy enough to buy no matter how crappy it is.

QFT.

"We're a minis company, not a gaming company."

The thing of it is - they seem to have concluded that this a better strategy to sell their products.

Everybody gets to have their own version of the Emperor, the Heresy, their favorite faction, etc. etc. They'll liberally quote from sources that agree with their POV, or attempt to use other methods of justification in order to enforce their viewpoint on how a specific topic should be conceived.

For GW to take a definitive stand or position on a hotly contested issue runs the risk of alienating a segment or set of players who have already made up their mind about the matter.

It isn't in the companies interest to declare something right or wrong, true or false - simply because

1.) They want your money. And they want the money of those who disagree with whatever you have to say.

So if everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too - why bother settling the matter?

2.) "Reboot when Necessary"

They could literally finish off the Horus Heresy's line of novels, wait a few years, and declare all of that null and void in order to raise cash by selling a different game/novel line/etc.


In this manner they don't even have to create anything new (of course given the long line of IP that WH40K has taken from... ). All they need to do is simply rebrand/repackage the product.

Which is more or less mismanagement. In the long run, it will bite them.$0k sales more by word of mouth then anything, and as A new player myself I see the issues , the creaks and the growing heated hate over conflicting fluff and bad management In time it will no longer be enough "Just to sale miniatures" as the setting is what sells them.

Also the "we are a mini company, Not a gaming company" is a pure lie and a lazy attempt at a cop out for not controlling ones IP.

I think the "we are a mini company, not a gaming company" was more of an excuse/justification for their god-awful ruleset. I don't think they care enough about the background material to actually comment/offer justification on it. The closest we get to the matter is BL authors commenting on it.

He's just one unfortunate incredibly competent dude that has been sucked into something he has absolutely no comprehension of, and yet somehow, continues to survive and succeed, due to unbridled effectiveness and the lucky fact that his soundness of mind and character is incredibly influential on the whacky powers that are acting on him.

I just think we aren't supposed to ask too much about it, but he's ward's attempt at bringing a little more of that golden age of the impeium into the dark future. Harkening back to the heroes we hear about, but only in an echo.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Which is more or less mismanagement. In the long run, it will bite them.$0k sales more by word of mouth then anything, and as A new player myself I see the issues , the creaks and the growing heated hate over conflicting fluff and bad management In time it will no longer be enough "Just to sale miniatures" as the setting is what sells them.

And here we come to the heart of the matter no?

It really boils down to how "replaceable" the company views a long term player.

Allow me to draw an analogy - I don't collect comic books but my friends who did once told me that apparently the character Spiderman was married to his long time sweetheart. And that occurred in the real world around the 1970s.

Recently, I guess the managing director of content for Marvel, decided to hack this bit of Spiderman lore to death. Why? Because "a married character is not going to be able to connect to the concerns of the target market (i assume young teenagers)."

That provoked a bit of a firestorm in that particular groups Fandom. Folks who had literally grown up with Spiderman since the 70s - who had gone on to careers and raised their own families in parallel to the character - felt like it was a swift kick in the ...well i guess you know where i'm going with that.

And you know what? It didn't matter to Marvel - at least not economically.

Because the Replacement rate of people just new to the character - who didn't have time/interest/inclination to sift through 30 years worth of lore - is greater than the diehards who continued to collect comic books well into their 30s or 40s.


The same exact thing can (and has) happened with 40K. For every one person who throws their hands up in the air because GW has frustrated them some how - there are probably a higher percentage of kids and teens going "Oh cool a war game!"

They are going to grow into a specific version of the 40K universe, like it alot, and either

a.) Exit the Hobby due to other considerations - Job, Spouse, change in Interest

b.) Grow into the Hobby but not care about the Fluff/Fiction (we have those folks on Dakka Dakka already)

c.) Grow into the Fluff/Fiction (a particular iteration of it) and either defend that version against all oncomers OR go down the "i'm too frustrated with GW!"

....only to be replaced by yet another set of kids going "oh cool, a war game!"


After all - what does it matter at the end of the day? You paid for that army of (insert favorite faction), you bought all the BL novels that interested you.

GW has already made its money off of you.

And that's why I fly the Jolly Roger. Arrr!

GW has made, very, very little money off me. FFG has made money and they from them, My Models are mostly 3pp stuff as the issue is cost. Who does GW think buys those pricy minis?

They live off an older fan base, not a teenage one. And the older the fan base gets, the more upset they seem to get at the horrible mismanagement of the setting. In time it will catch up with them. No company stays making money forever with out at lest pretending to give a damn about what they are selling.

Well according to the ordo mallus anyone who even knows about demons must be killed. The only exceptions are space marines who are mind wiped of the time they were fighting them and the grey knights who are allowed to remember because they are so pure. So the sisters needed to die. Making use of their holy blood was just not being wasteful.

I am a cheapskate who has managed to blag most of his army for free. I am about the only one in my local group of 10 who has really done this. Everyone else has invested around £500 each into the hobby. And none of them particularly care that the fluff is being 'butchered'. Anecdotal evidence, yes, but, well, there are people buying the models. And they are putting in a lot more money than me, someone who actually cares, is.

White Ninja wrote:Well according to the ordo mallus anyone who even knows about demons must be killed. The only exceptions are space marines who are mind wiped of the time they were fighting them and the grey knights who are allowed to remember because they are so pure. So the sisters needed to die. Making use of their holy blood was just not being wasteful.

Nope, your simply viewing 40k in white and black. In fact the Grey Knight Codex disagrees with you. Guardsmen are usually killed but sometimes they will be quickly mind wipe if they fought well (although this causes a high death rate).

Necrosis wrote:

White Ninja wrote:Well according to the ordo mallus anyone who even knows about demons must be killed. The only exceptions are space marines who are mind wiped of the time they were fighting them and the grey knights who are allowed to remember because they are so pure. So the sisters needed to die. Making use of their holy blood was just not being wasteful.

Nope, your simply viewing 40k in white and black. In fact the Grey Knight Codex disagrees with you. Guardsmen are usually killed but sometimes they will be quickly mind wipe if they fought well (although this causes a high death rate).

That is the exception rather then the rule. Normal humans are not allowed to know chaos even exists. They sure as heck are not allowed to know that demons exist. So the purging of Armagedon after the first war was just common practice. So the fact that the sisters were killed is not uncommon. Also it is Individual Inquisitors that make that call not the Grey Knights and some inquisitors are more then willing to break the rules for their own gain or to get an edge over their foe. When the grey knights get called in the world is about to be purged. Once they show up there will likely be few survivors that are not marines.

White Ninja wrote:That is the exception rather then the rule. Normal humans are not allowed to know chaos even exists. They sure as heck are not allowed to know that demons exist. So the purging of Armagedon after the first war was just common practice. So the fact that the sisters were killed is not uncommon. Also it is Individual Inquisitors that make that call not the Grey Knights and some inquisitors are more then willing to break the rules for their own gain or to get an edge over their foe. When the grey knights get called in the world is about to be purged. Once they show up there will likely be few survivors that are not marines.

Do you have sources to back up your claim? The reason guardsmen are killed in the grey knight codex is cause they are plentiful and easily replace, a sister of battle on the other hand is not. Also sisters of battle are highly resistant to daemons corruption sometimes it is even harder to corrupt a sister of battle then a space marine. Also there are exorcists, humans who specialize in fighting daemons who are members of the Adeptus Ministorum.

Randomonioum wrote:I am a cheapskate who has managed to blag most of his army for free. I am about the only one in my local group of 10 who has really done this. Everyone else has invested around £500 each into the hobby. And none of them particularly care that the fluff is being 'butchered'. Anecdotal evidence, yes, but, well, there are people buying the models. And they are putting in a lot more money than me, someone who actually cares, is.

Emphasis on the --> And none of them particularly care that the fluff is being 'butchered'.

Its all about where one puts value on the Fluff/Fiction. There are folks who participate on DakkaDakka, Librarium, Warseer, DarkReign, etc.etc. who never set foot into the Background/Fiction forums.

All they do is just play the wargame - and that's how they have fun.




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Omegus wrote:And that's why I fly the Jolly Roger. Arrr!

LOL! that's the spirit.

Draigo being a daemon is an explanation that makes sense, but I have an even better one: Ward writes terrible fluff. Hence, I ignore it. Draigo only exists to me as one more guy in shiny armour that need to be sacrificed to the dark gods.

I cannot remember where i read that from but I think it might have been the old demon hunters codex. And well as you said there are some exceptions to the kill all witnesses rule they tend to fall solidly under the realm of the inquisition which is who exorcists work for the ordo malleus. And I am not quoting the current grey knights codex. I'm not saying that everyone who witnesses daemons are killed but unless the inquisition has a reason not to they have a habit of making sure you have no chance of being tainted. Although after having just read the actual page talking about killing the Sisters it does sound like they did it for no other reason then needing the blood. As for other source after having read through most of the new grey knights book most of the fluff has them doing eterminatus on every planet that had daemons with every space marine chapter being mind wiped after the fighting.

Please get this back on topic, this is about DRAIGO not IF OR IF NOT PEOPLE ARE MINWIPED/KILLED IF THEY KNOW ABOUT DAEMONS

woops, capslock

Draigo is a jumped-up arrogant upstart donkey-cave who pissed off the Grey Knights enough that four Grand Masters and 2,200 Grey Knights up and left when he became Supreme Grand Master (no, seriously, read the old GK Codex compared to the new one: 3,000 then v. 800 now, twelve Grand Masters then v. eight now, the only other major organizational difference was the addition of the rank of Supreme Grand Master).

He's a massively divisive figure amongst the fandom, is there any reason he shouldn't be a massively divisive figure amongst the Grey Knights? And what could make the 40k universe darker and grimmer than an ideological schism that led to a splinter faction of the Imperium's most elite defenders breaking off and leaving the direct control of the Ecclesiarchy/High Lords/whoever holds Draigo's leash?

purplefood wrote:Imperial Daemon!
The first of many to fight the increasing numbers of Chaos Grey Knights!

Good question

Durza wrote:Draigo being a daemon is an explanation that makes sense, but I have an even better one: Ward writes terrible fluff. Hence, I ignore it. Draigo only exists to me as one more guy in shiny armour that need to be sacrificed to the dark gods.

I wouldn't say Ward fluff is inherently bad, I particularly like that Necrons have been humanized instead of being slaves to the Ctan with no special characters. I would probably say it is hit or miss, some of his fluff isn't bad, and some isn't inherently bad, but simply gives a very fanboyish feel to it.

Buttons wrote:

Durza wrote:Draigo being a daemon is an explanation that makes sense, but I have an even better one: Ward writes terrible fluff. Hence, I ignore it. Draigo only exists to me as one more guy in shiny armour that need to be sacrificed to the dark gods.

I wouldn't say Ward fluff is inherently bad, I particularly like that Necrons have been humanized instead of being slaves to the Ctan with no special characters. I would probably say it is hit or miss, some of his fluff isn't bad, and some isn't inherently bad, but simply gives a very fanboyish feel to it.

The Necron stuff seems to have divided the fanbase a bit. Some can't stand it, some love it. I just meant that Ward could do with a bit of practise writing fluff, and I'm not going to treat him as a serious fluff writer until he stops being blatantly on one side when he's meant to be giving an unbiased view.

Well...Codexes aren't necessarily meant to be an unbiased look at the army, every Codex's fluff is written in order to gush about how wonderful the army is. That's not the part of Matt Ward's fluff that I object to, it's when he starts dictating how groups as a whole think/feel about his characters. How do we know Draigo is universally beloved? Remember all the missing Grey Knights? Maybe they didn't like Draigo and left. Who is Matt Ward to say that all Space Marines worship the Codex Astartes and Robute Gulliman? How do we know that the Raven Guard don't think Gulliman was a stuck-up rule-bound prig who couldn't write a sensible document on tactics if the Emperor Himself commanded it? Maybe there's a Space Wolves Wolf Lord who keeps a copy of the Codex Astartes at the bottom of his toilet. At the end of the day, he can write whatever the hell he wants about his characters, but he should really stop trying to insert things about our characters into the fluff.

Yes, he does love to make his characters the awesomest!, although how so many people can be the awesomest! at the same time is beyond me.

Anyway, regarding Draigo, he unfortunately is not a daemon or anything else. There's a line in the new codex about how some Grey Knights are so powerful they can "stave off death itself". So yes, at least as far as Matthew Ward intended it, Draigo is alive and well in an environment where nothing can live, somehow literally kicking metaphysical daemon god butt and taking names (or carving them into hearts as the case may be). Ward probably had to go to ...erm... relieve himself after he finished writing that particular fluff piece.

If all guardsman who know about chaos are killed, how does Cadia exist? Or Gaunt's Ghosts, or the entire Crusades that fight Chaos? There are way to many fights going off against chaos for the inquisition to be able to learn a battle took place before the ones involved retired, died of old age, and their kids grew up and died of old age. And the church regulary preaches about the dangers of chaos. Where the heck in this info coming from?