TOKYO — North Korea issued an ominous new threat Monday in its campaign against South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, vowing to carry out a special military attack that would reduce parts of Seoul to ash “in three or four minutes ... by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style.”
The North’s state-run news agency said the “targets are the Lee Myung-bak group of traitors, the arch criminals, and the group of rat-like elements including conservative media destroying the mainstay of the fair public opinion.”
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The statement, attributed to a “special operation action group” of the Korean People's Army, provided no additional details about how the attack might be carried out. But analysts said the statement differed from Pyongyang’s usual calls for sacred war and fiery revenge — background noise on the peninsula — because it laid out the scenario of a specific, targeted military strike.
“I suppose their threat is very concrete,” said Park Hyeong-jung, a North Korea researcher at Seoul’s Korea Institute for National Unification. “They said they will do it very soon, and this is unusual.”
The North has spent years criticizing Lee, a conservative who ended the generous aid policies of his predecessors, but it has taken sharper aim in the last week. Thousands of Pyongyang residents and army members met Friday in Kim Il Sung Square, pledging during a rally to “wipe out” Lee and his allies.
The North also revised its state-run news agency Web site, creating a banner that cycles through anti-Lee messages such as “Let Us Cut Off Windpipes of the Lee Myung-bak-led Swarm of Rats!” Recent articles also have called him “human scum” and an “underwit with 2MB of knowledge.”
“It is, therefore, a tragedy and shame for the nation to see Lee still alive,” one story said.
In recent days, Lee has publicly estimated the price ($850 million) of the North’s failed rocket launch on April 13 and said the money could have been used for several million tons of corn. He also suggested that new leader Kim Jong Eun privatize the impoverished nation’s agricultural land to stoke the economy.
Experts in Seoul on Monday speculated that the North may be planning a cyberattack or another military provocation, similar to its island-shelling or its torpedoing of a warship in 2010. But Seoul’s Defense Ministry saw no immediate change in the North’s military movements, according to the Associated Press.
Government officials in Seoul also fear that the North is preparing for another underground nuclear test, citing excavation activity visible on recent satellite images.
Meh...the sad thing about the whole NK/SK thing is, I don't really think that NK will ever turn from its crazy dictatorship ways on its own and it surely won't go to peace talks with SK for a harmonic reunion. That conflict will see more dead people before it's over...maybe it's better if it happens sooner than later, who knows.
Its all talk, thats all it ever is. The north knows it can't win a war, but no one wants to fight them because then they'll have a massive humanitarian crisis to deal with...
Exalted Pariah wrote:Its all talk, thats all it ever is. The north knows it has nukes, but no one wants to fight them because then they'll have a massive humanitarian crisis to deal with...
If they wanted to do this they could have just pointed their last rocket towards Seoul and when it fell out of the air instead of a "it failed" it could have been a "woohoo look what we did".
Archaeo wrote:If they wanted to do this they could have just pointed their last rocket towards Seoul and when it fell out of the air instead of a "it failed" it could have been a "woohoo look what we did".
Well this is NK. They could have actually tried that and missed...badly.
a special military attack that would reduce parts of Seoul to ash “in three or four minutes ... by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style.”
You heard it here first, North Korea has created Godzilla, or some other gigantic city-burning monster that suspiciously resembles a man stomping around in a suit made of rubber.
I honestly dont think they will follow through with this threat. They couldent win because they know the U.S. would get involved almost immediatley... Though it would be interesting as someone else said.
Jumpin Jesus wrote:I honestly dont think they will follow through with this threat. They couldent win because they know the U.S. would get involved almost immediatley... Though it would be interesting as someone else said.
since when has NK ever followed through on any legit threat?
Much like a cat that is threatened, the norks turn their body, breathe in, and have the hairs of their fur stand on end as they hiss and growl to try to scare away their enemies.
@frazzeled, so they have nukes, very few in number and so weak in power the first test they did wasn't believed to be nuclear but just a bunch of regular bombs underground. They can't use them without having their "nation" being turned to glass, even without nukes, invading them wasn't an option because then the "state" collapses and you have millions of starving, impoverished refugees to deal with.
Exalted Pariah wrote:@frazzeled, so they have nukes, very few in number and so weak in power the first test they did wasn't believed to be nuclear but just a bunch of regular bombs underground. They can't use them without having their "nation" being turned to glass, even without nukes, invading them wasn't an option because then the "state" collapses and you have millions of starving, impoverished refugees to deal with.
Millions of South koreans are within artillery distance of North Korea. They have a massive army of crazies ready to start the commie version of Ragnarok. Its coockoo.
PLus they've done weird stuff like blow up a destroyer (what last year?) shell South Korean towns (again what last year) and interesting things like send in commandoes to kill people and kidnap Japanese citizens-in Japan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens
Another war in South East Asia? Looks like it's time to blast CCR from our helicopters and lay down some Hellfires!
God what a mess this will be if they do actually take action. Iran will take the opportunity to do whatever they need to do, and WWIII will be here faster than you can say "Nuclear Holocaust"
Samus_aran115 wrote:Another war in South East Asia? Looks like it's time to blast CCR from our helicopters and lay down some Hellfires!
God what a mess this will be if they do actually take action. Iran will take the opportunity to do whatever they need to do, and WWIII will be here faster than you can say "Nuclear Holocaust"
Or we can tell the world we're leaving Korea in two years. We'll just leave these big crates over... there (runs to cash multi billion dollar check).
Samus_aran115 wrote:Another war in South East Asia? Looks like it's time to blast CCR from our helicopters and lay down some Hellfires!
God what a mess this will be if they do actually take action. Iran will take the opportunity to do whatever they need to do, and WWIII will be here faster than you can say "Nuclear Holocaust"
Just in case you were having trouble finding it on a map. Korea is nowhere near South East Asia.
Exalted Pariah wrote:@frazzeled, so they have nukes, very few in number and so weak in power the first test they did wasn't believed to be nuclear but just a bunch of regular bombs underground. They can't use them without having their "nation" being turned to glass, even without nukes, invading them wasn't an option because then the "state" collapses and you have millions of starving, impoverished refugees to deal with.
Just out of curiosity, who do you think would use nukes against North Korea, even if they did manage to pop one in South Korea?
South Korea? I don't think they have their own.
Japan? Same as South Korea.
The US? I honestly don't think under Pres Obama we would for a few reasons. He really dislikes nukes and would unilaterally disarm if he could. If he authorizes their use he sets back his goal of ridding the world of nukes forever. I think China would STRONGLY advise us not to pop a nuke close to their territory. Check out a map of NK. Frankly there are not a lot of good 'nuke' targets except the city of Pyongyang. And even though there are several legit military targets with in it, I don't think Obama authorizes a nuke on that city. Most other targets in NK are either burried so deep you would need a series of strikes it ensure their destruction, or they are not nuke worthy.
As for the millions of starving Norks, the South has funds set up and plans to deal with an eventual reunification. They studied the German reunionification extensively and know how much worse off the Norks are than East Germany was. They are not ready, and may never be, but it is not like they are going into it blind and without some forethought. Remember, China too has a vested interest in keeping the Norks fed to keep a crap ton of refugees from heading into China when the Norks finally lose control of their country.
I'm not sure about ROK but Japan could have nuclear weapons realistically in weeks, maybe even measured in days if they have done background studies and designs as contingencies. They embraced nuclear power like no other nation and actively chose not to weaponize due to our nuclear umbrella. Recent military changes in Japan lead me to believe that of push came to shove Japan would probably reveal having a nuclear capability no one has seriously considered.
Pfft. No way. If push came shove they'd probably nuke both of them. I don't think the Japanese would piss on either Korea if they were on fire, but if nuclear attack threatened by PRK I doubt they'd prevaricate very much before irradiating them.
North Korea issued an ominous new threat Monday in its campaign against South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, vowing to carry out a special military attack that would reduce parts of Seoul to ash “in three or four minutes ... by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style.”
First thing that comes to mind. Does that make me a bad person?
PYONGYANG, North Korea — North Korea sharply escalated the rhetoric against its southern rival, claiming it will soon conduct “special actions” that would reduce South Korea’s conservative government to ashes within minutes.
Monday’s threat from the North’s military leadership comes amid concerns that North Korea may be plotting another provocation in the wake of an unsuccessful rocket launch condemned by the U.N. Security Council as a violation of a ban against missile activity.
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U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon urged North Korea to refrain from “further provocative measures,” telling reporters in New York late Monday that such actions “will not be desirable for the peace and stability of the Korean peninsula.”
North Korea characterized the April 13 rocket launch as a failed bid to send a satellite into space — not a disguised test of missile technology as Washington and Seoul claim. Two days after the attempt, Pyongyang unveiled a new long-range missile at a military birthday parade for late President Kim Il Sung.
There are new concerns that North Korea may conduct a nuclear test as it did after rocket launches in 2006 and 2009. South Korean intelligence officials say recent satellite images show the North has been digging a new tunnel in what could be preparation for a third atomic test.
On the North Korean side of the Demilitarized Zone, a military guide told The Associated Press that he believes his country needs atomic weapons to defend itself against the threat of attack from the U.S.
“Nuclear weapons are not the monopoly of the United States,” Lt. Col. Nam Dong Ho said. “It’s my personal opinion, but I think we’ll continue to conduct nuclear tests.”
On Monday, the military warned in a statement carried by the state-run Korean Central News Agency that it would launch “special actions” soon against the South Korean government and conservative media.
For days, North Korea has railed against South Korean President Lee Myung-bak and conservative South Korean media for criticizing its rocket launch and the celebrations of the centennial of Kim Il Sung’s birth. But the military message, attributed to the “special operation action group” of the Korean People’s Army’s Supreme Command, was unusual in its specificity.
“Once the above-said special actions kick off, they will reduce all the rat-like groups and the bases for provocations to ashes in three or four minutes, in much shorter time, by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style,” it said.
The threat comes as North Korea’s new commander in chief, Kim Jong Un, makes a show of support for the “military first” policy championed by his late father and predecessor, Kim Jong Il. North Korea marks the 80th anniversary of the founding of its army Wednesday.
A South Korean Defense Ministry official, speaking on condition of anonymity in line with departmental rules, said no special military movement had been observed in the North.
There also was no outward sign of tension on the North Korean side of the Demilitarized Zone. At Panmunjom, small groups of tourists were touring the “peace” village and the buildings where the Korean War armistice was signed in 1953.
Seoul expressed worry that the threats were hurting relations.
“We urge North Korea to immediately stop this practice,” Unification Ministry spokesman Kim Hyung-suk told reporters, according to the ministry. “We express deep concern that the North’s threats and accusations have worsened inter-Korean ties and heightened tensions.”
In November 2010, after issuing a warning to the South Korean government, North Korean troops showered artillery on a front-line island in disputed western waters held by South Korea. The attack killed four people, including two civilians.
However, it is unlikely that North Korea would launch a large-scale military attack against South Korea, which is backed by nearly 30,000 U.S. troops stationed in the South, said Kim Young-soo, a professor at Sogang University in Seoul.
Late Monday, a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry accused the U.S. of slander and of spearheading the campaign of criticism of its rocket launch. The launch prompted the U.S. to halt a Feb. 29 deal to provide Pyongyang with much-needed food aid in exchange for a moratorium on nuclear and missile activity.
In Washington, State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said North Korea “needs to understand that it’s not going to achieve anything but further isolation and pressure by threats, by launches, by any of this.”
What are the possibilities of this actually happening and how will that affect American deployments?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joey wrote:Nothing on BBC news. Clearly no one is taking this seriously.
North Korea has warned of "unprecedented" action against South Korea's ruling establishment, amid tough rhetoric between the two sides.
A special operation to begin "soon" would "reduce its target to ashes", the military said in a statement.
On Friday North Korea also held a rally calling for the death of South Korea's president, condemning his comments against the North.
Seoul said last week it had deployed more missiles against the North.
A defence ministry spokesman said the missiles had a range of 1,000km (625 miles) and could hit any of Pyongyang's nuclear or missile sites.
'Rat-like'
The North's statement directly criticised South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, the defence minister, analysts and "rat-like elements" including conservative broadcasters, who were accused of "destroying fair-minded public opinion."
The statement, which was read out on state television, said that "the special actions of our revolutionary armed forces will start soon to meet the reckless challenge of the group of traitors".
North Korean rhetoric has been getting sharper in recent days following its failed rocket on 13 April, reports the BBC's Lucy Williamson.
Pyongyang said it was putting a satellite into orbit but critics said the launch was a disguised test of missile technology banned under UN resolutions.
The relationship between the two Koreas has also been especially strained since Mr Lee assumed office in 2008 because of his government's policy towards the North, linking food aid to progress on nuclear disarmament.
But North Korea has reacted strongly towards the South over its criticism of the rocket launch, which it said was to commemorate the centenary of the birth of founding leader Kim Il-sung.
"Those actions are an eruption of the public anger and resentment and a sacred war of all service personnel and people to protect the dignity of our supreme leadership," North Korea said.
On Sunday the North's major ally China, however, vowed closer ties.
China's most senior foreign diplomat, Dai Bingguo, told North Korean visiting official Kim Yong-il that it would "push friendly and co-operative China-North Korean relations to a new level", according to a statement released by its foreign ministry.
And then they'd just put innocent civillians in the way, and convince said civillians it was all America's fault.
Japan might get involved if they thought the conflict might affect them, or if they thought getting involved might soothe reationships between them and Korea. Of course, it wouldn't, seeing as Japan just has to turn on a bedside lamp to attract mass hatred from Korea. (Yes, I am exaggurating).
Henners91 wrote:Couldn't the US just bomb the crap out of them with aircraft over three days Libya-style?
We don't need a war but I'd wager that Yankee Doodle must have special weapons a plenty to cripple the crap out of the NK military?
NK is all hardened targets. Much more than 3 days. At best you are slowing logistics and troops as they head south, but even there a lot of that is already prepositioned in hardened underground sites and doens't have far south to travel (and some of that movement is underground too).
In three days you will be able to atrit the Nork arty capable of hitting Seoul, take out what little of an airforce the Norks have (or at least keep it confined to their hardened undergound hangers) and do some decent work against their integrated ADA network. We can only generate so many sorties though. I suspect airfields in South Korea may be largely unusable for the first few days so sorties are going to have to travel to get to targets and then re-arm to generate the next strike packages.
Henners91 wrote:Couldn't the US just bomb the crap out of them with aircraft over three days Libya-style?
We don't need a war but I'd wager that Yankee Doodle must have special weapons a plenty to cripple the crap out of the NK military?
Clinton tried that with Iraq for years. It was irrelevant. Plus iraq didn't have a nuke and thousands of artillery positioned around Seoul.
I think the most prudent thing is get the out. SK has the economic capacity to build a military stronger than anything in Europe currently. It should be NK that is quivering in fear. Enough is enough, let the SK's defend SK. Its not US territory.
If it were to get messy the Americans would have egg on their face much like they did when their other Asian puppet collapsed
(Not saying SK's government is in any way under US control - merely that the US is responsible for its genesis and development)
Automatically Appended Next Post: If it were to get messy the Americans would have egg on their face much like they did when their other Asian puppet collapsed
(Not saying SK's government is in any way under US control - merely that the US is responsible for its genesis and development)
Henners91 wrote:Couldn't the US just bomb the crap out of them with aircraft over three days Libya-style?
We don't need a war but I'd wager that Yankee Doodle must have special weapons a plenty to cripple the crap out of the NK military?
Clinton tried that with Iraq for years. It was irrelevant. Plus iraq didn't have a nuke and thousands of artillery positioned around Seoul.
I think the most prudent thing is get the out. SK has the economic capacity to build a military stronger than anything in Europe currently. It should be NK that is quivering in fear. Enough is enough, let the SK's defend SK. Its not US territory.
This, both south korea and japan have more than enough military muscle to defend themselves from Red Communist Aggression
Henners91 wrote:If it were to get messy the Americans would have egg on their face much like they did when their other Asian puppet collapsed
(Not saying SK's government is in any way under US control - merely that the US is responsible for its genesis and development)
Automatically Appended Next Post: If it were to get messy the Americans would have egg on their face much like they did when their other Asian puppet collapsed
(Not saying SK's government is in any way under US control - merely that the US is responsible for its genesis and development)
Sorry, your statement is denied. We're not responsible for anything except the fact SK is not ruled by the same people who bring you such classic hits as: Our Dear Leader made nine holes in one playing golf; you don't need food, just eat grass; and the world's largest gulag. I will grant you, we're (collective we - UK included) are also responsible for SK not speaking Japanese.
Dont listen to Henners, he knows about as much about war as I know about knitting.
And yes, of course the UK were involved in the Korean war, The Royal Marine Commandos (41 commando) travelled to Japan in civilian clothes, were issued American winter uniforms and weapons but retained their green berets, and promtly went and fethed everyone's gak up. 41 Commando were awarded the American Presidential Unit Citation, and I believe to this day are the only foreign force to do so.
Anyway, Ignoring absolutely everything else, the complex machinations of international politics and what have you, the most obvious answer to any conflict is simply this.
South Korea spend about half as much as the UK on defence spending, namely. gak loads of money.
North Korea spend.. well.. less.
South Korea have roughly twice the population, and its citizens are far smarter.
If I had to pick between the pot bellied ignorant savages of the North, and the smarter, richer, better educated better fed Southerners, I know who my money would be on.
Generally speaking, the fethers with the most men and the most money tend to win.
And oopsie doodle, I do appear to have allowed my A-level history courses to have merged and thought that Korea was the country in which the US ignored the outcome of elections... that was Vietnam. I most humbly bow and submit to the incredible cumulative knowledge that is the interwebs. (Cited source: Wikipedia)
I'll also add that I intended no anti-Americanism, if I were an educated sort and not the grass-munching provincial peasant that I be, I'd subscribe to realpolitik; in that case, were I a world leader, I'd certainly consciously set up puppet governments and the like; it's the best way to roll, brahs. It's what got Japan turned from a bunch of Samurai badasses into CHIBE ANIME KAWAII DESU DESU DESU ^.^ Were a Samurai to stand up out of his grave tomorrow and observe the total absence of testosterone, he'd immediately sepukku his a**. Interfering with defeated nations is what's given us world peace; by disowning militarism as a foreign policy tool, Germany and Japan may now skip together in the meadows of economic dominance and giggle as the victors of the war are subjugated... Oh long-term victory; JUST AS PLANNED!
mattyrm wrote:Dont listen to Henners, he knows about as much about war as I know about knitting.
And yes, of course the UK were involved in the Korean war, The Royal Marine Commandos (41 commando) travelled to Japan in civilian clothes, were issued American winter uniforms and weapons but retained their green berets, and promtly went and fethed everyone's gak up. 41 Commando were awarded the American Presidential Unit Citation, and I believe to this day are the only foreign force to do so.
Anyway, Ignoring absolutely everything else, the complex machinations of international politics and what have you, the most obvious answer to any conflict is simply this.
South Korea spend about half as much as the UK on defence spending, namely. gak loads of money.
North Korea spend.. well.. less.
South Korea have roughly twice the population, and its citizens are far smarter.
If I had to pick between the pot bellied ignorant savages of the North, and the smarter, richer, better educated better fed Southerners, I know who my money would be on.
Generally speaking, the fethers with the most men and the most money tend to win.
Er...yes, the UK was one of the powers that formally sent troops to aid SK as part of the Korean War...er police action, along with the US, Turkey (yes Turkey), and a variety of other countries. I've seen list but I can never figure out British formations. You have names from like, when you were fighting the Burgundians or the Lancasters or some damn thing.
(translation you have units that were around before most of the current countries were in existence. )
It was one of those affairs where a stamp of approval was needed in that the invasion should be an international effort (similar to how Johnson badgered the crap out of Harold Wilson to join the party in Vietnam) - such affairs usually have American dominance, but they ask a couple of the GIs to don a sombrero or something to give it that international 'flavour'
Henners91 wrote:
I'll also add that I intended no anti-Americanism, if I were an educated sort and not the grass-munching provincial peasant that I be, I'd subscribe to realpolitik; in that case, were I a world leader, I'd certainly consciously set up puppet governments and the like; it's the best way to roll, brahs. It's what got Japan turned from a bunch of Samurai badasses into CHIBE ANIME KAWAII DESU DESU DESU ^.^ Were a Samurai to stand up out of his grave tomorrow and observe the total absence of testosterone, he'd immediately sepukku his a**. Interfering with defeated nations is what's given us world peace; by disowning militarism as a foreign policy tool, Germany and Japan may now skip together in the meadows of economic dominance and giggle as the victors of the war are subjugated... Oh long-term victory; JUST AS PLANNED!
What the actual feth are you saying here dude? I'm baffled... It may just be because I'm skim-reading this in work... But that just went so far over my head I think it left Earth orbit
Henners91 wrote:It was one of those affairs where a stamp of approval was needed in that the invasion should be an international effort (similar to how Johnson badgered the crap out of Harold Wilson to join the party in Vietnam) - such affairs usually have American dominance, but they ask a couple of the GIs to don a sombrero or something to give it that international 'flavour'
This was the first military action the UN supported. It may also be the only war in the 20th Century that french troops did not surrender in.
Democratic People's Republic of Korea
People's Republic of China
The Soviet Union
The "South Korean" side consisted of
Republic of Korea
Australia
Belgium
Canada
Colombia
Ethiopia
France
Greece
Luxembourg
Netherlands
New Zealand
Philippines
South Africa
Thailand
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States
Henners91 wrote:
I'll also add that I intended no anti-Americanism, if I were an educated sort and not the grass-munching provincial peasant that I be, I'd subscribe to realpolitik; in that case, were I a world leader, I'd certainly consciously set up puppet governments and the like; it's the best way to roll, brahs. It's what got Japan turned from a bunch of Samurai badasses into CHIBE ANIME KAWAII DESU DESU DESU ^.^ Were a Samurai to stand up out of his grave tomorrow and observe the total absence of testosterone, he'd immediately sepukku his a**. Interfering with defeated nations is what's given us world peace; by disowning militarism as a foreign policy tool, Germany and Japan may now skip together in the meadows of economic dominance and giggle as the victors of the war are subjugated... Oh long-term victory; JUST AS PLANNED!
What the actual feth are you saying here dude? I'm baffled... It may just be because I'm skim-reading this in work... But that just went so far over my head I think it left Earth orbit
Here I can help. Take some spray paint - gold is the best. Spray it into a brown paper bag. Stick your nose in and inhale deeply.* Then re-read it.
Henners91 wrote:
I'll also add that I intended no anti-Americanism, if I were an educated sort and not the grass-munching provincial peasant that I be, I'd subscribe to realpolitik; in that case, were I a world leader, I'd certainly consciously set up puppet governments and the like; it's the best way to roll, brahs. It's what got Japan turned from a bunch of Samurai badasses into CHIBE ANIME KAWAII DESU DESU DESU ^.^ Were a Samurai to stand up out of his grave tomorrow and observe the total absence of testosterone, he'd immediately sepukku his a**. Interfering with defeated nations is what's given us world peace; by disowning militarism as a foreign policy tool, Germany and Japan may now skip together in the meadows of economic dominance and giggle as the victors of the war are subjugated... Oh long-term victory; JUST AS PLANNED!
What the actual feth are you saying here dude? I'm baffled... It may just be because I'm skim-reading this in work... But that just went so far over my head I think it left Earth orbit
TL;DR: It is not bad to admit to making puppet governments because the end results are this:
Spoiler:
to this:
Spoiler:
Your fiercest enemies are rendered peace-loving beatnik anime-loving hippies!
Henners91 wrote:I've seen your handiwork, mattyrm:
BOOOOOID!
And oopsie doodle, I do appear to have allowed my A-level history courses to have merged and thought that Korea was the country in which the US ignored the outcome of elections... that was Vietnam. I most humbly bow and submit to the incredible cumulative knowledge that is the interwebs. (Cited source: Wikipedia)
I'll also add that I intended no anti-Americanism, if I were an educated sort and not the grass-munching provincial peasant that I be, I'd subscribe to realpolitik; in that case, were I a world leader, I'd certainly consciously set up puppet governments and the like; it's the best way to roll, brahs. It's what got Japan turned from a bunch of Samurai badasses into CHIBE ANIME KAWAII DESU DESU DESU ^.^ Were a Samurai to stand up out of his grave tomorrow and observe the total absence of testosterone, he'd immediately sepukku his a**. Interfering with defeated nations is what's given us world peace; by disowning militarism as a foreign policy tool, Germany and Japan may now skip together in the meadows of economic dominance and giggle as the victors of the war are subjugated... Oh long-term victory; JUST AS PLANNED!
Well, I couldn't have put it more offensively myself. Especially considering that:
A: Desu has been a Japanese word for as long as the Japanese language has existed. I know this, I'm learning Japanese, and it does come up a lot. It has absolutely nothing to do with Otaku culture. They've always ended a lot of sentences with desu.
B: Uh, yeah...Samurai badasses? Right...Also bear in mind that a lot of "Japan's" military actions were beyond their control, as during the second world war the Japanese military essentially went rogue. Also, I hardly see how having the longest average lifespan, lowest crime rates and best standards of living in the world is a bad thing. Desu.
Sounds like a nifty reason to disown everything and anything the military did in textbooks 'n' all and also means that the lovable Emprah Hirohito was indeed totally innocent and honestly a good guy, really, like he didn't even know a war was happening; he was napping, I'm serious guys, quit asking me about him!
Spoiler:
Godwin's Law commands that I imply that H-bomb wasn't aware of what the SS was doing (they totally 'went rogue') as a comparison of how ludicrous defending Japan's military record is.
Squigsquasher wrote:
B: Uh, yeah...Samurai badasses? Right...Also bear in mind that a lot of "Japan's" military actions were beyond their control, as during the second world war the Japanese military essentially went rogue.
TL, DR:
Not really. Hirohito essentially became powerless during WW2 and the events leading up to it; the military took over the country, and even assasinated the Japanese prime minister. In fact, it was Hirohito who finally put his foot down, told Tojo "enough is enough" and got Japan to surrender.
Yeah, he didn't have a good ten year period before 1941 to be all like 'yo guys, that stuff in China... not cool man.'
Once more: GODWIN'S LAW! Heinrich Himmler was all like 'enough is enough' to Hitler; he even tried to go rogue and negotiate a surrender. Himmler was a good guy clearly!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get the feeling that you're defending Japan's war record because it's 'fashionable' there is, quite rightly, a lot of friendship and cultural affiliation nowadays that just makes it trendy to kind of forget that their war record was horrific. So White Knight'ing in these discussions is perfectly understandable; you have my empathy.
Fact of the matter is (and it's what bothers me) that they go to considerable extents to ensure that their kiddlywinks don't know a thing about what happened. Lord forbid lessons being learned or an olive branch going out to the Chinese. But it doesn't matter because we all love them, and go to speak Japanese so we can fulfill our dreams of going there to find 'spiritual fulfillment' and those lives we imagine we could have had if only we had been born there... Oh, and most importantly, we can watch Ghost in the Shell with the original dub!
Once more I fail to small print! Go forth the victor, my friend! Substances of arguments must always fail on technicalities! Woe be to me and my misguided ways :(
Henners91 wrote:Yeah, he didn't have a good ten year period before 1941 to be all like 'yo guys, that stuff in China... not cool man.'
Once more: GODWIN'S LAW! Heinrich Himmler was all like 'enough is enough' to Hitler; he even tried to go rogue and negotiate a surrender. Himmler was a good guy clearly!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get the feeling that you're defending Japan's war record because it's 'fashionable' there is, quite rightly, a lot of friendship and cultural affiliation nowadays that just makes it trendy to kind of forget that their war record was horrific. So White Knight'ing in these discussions is perfectly understandable; you have my empathy.
Dude, I might agree with but you need to put down the crack pipe when you're posting. Its difficult to understand you. You're posting like this guy:
Indeed. Also, you referred to the WW2 Japanese as "Samurai Badasses" and to post-war Japanese as...Well, you remember. And yet now you are condemning the things the Japanese did in WW2. Make your mind up. Besides, it seems unfair to blame the modern Generation of Japanese people for something that they had no control over, on account of the fact they didn't even exist then. But then I have noticed a very racist anti-Japanese stance from you.
@Frazzled
That's what I've been doing between posts
Squigsquasher wrote:Indeed. Also, you referred to the WW2 Japanese as "Samurai Badasses" and to post-war Japanese as...Well, you remember. And yet now you are condemning the things the Japanese did in WW2. Make your mind up. Besides, it seems unfair to blame the modern Generation of Japanese people for something that they had no control over, on account of the fact they didn't even exist then. But then I have noticed a very racist anti-Japanese stance from you.
I was referring to the Samurai (though, obv. it's inaccurate to refer to them when talking about WW2, but mnyah, everyone was totally emulating them, like) as warriors, pretty badass guys. No matter your war record you can still be badass as a combatant. That's why so many kids these days play a game of CoD or MoH and suddenly start posting comments on YouTube along the lines of 'Yeah them Wehrmacht guys; gotta respect them as soldiers... besides, they didn't do anything wrong like.' So yeah, I'm committing a similar mistake by referring to the Samurai positively. I blame Shogun 2 for eating up too much of my time.
Now to drop my semi-mocking tone and actually engage seriously here: I am not blaming the Japanese people of today for the crimes of the past, that's illogical. But, speaking as an individual with half a family full of Germans (and the resultant conversations that entails), I've found that coming to terms with a conflict is very important for any society. I'm going to have to refer to Germans primarily in this analogy as I've had the most first-hand experience with them: They're not as bad as Japan when it comes to 'covering it up'; but Nazism is taboo. They don't discuss it, they often don't feel at liberty to discuss it even if they want to. Everyone just wants to get on with their lives and just forget. My aunt once started crying when I brought up the movie Downfall; she just said 'Why can't everyone stop going on about it?! We did nothing! Everyone who did is dead! You - the BBC, should stop always broadcasting about the war, stop mentioning it- it's racist.' Now I felt sorry for her, sure, but her point was ultimately unacceptable: You can't just brush history under the rug and refuse to engage with it. The problems in Germany with even mentioning it is totally counter-productive. The best way to get over a trauma is to be casual about it - just be able to talk about it and take it like a pinch of salt... when an issue no longer really leads to an emotional reaction in you because you've explored it to its fullest extent, then you're done. Other countries aren't going to sweep the war under the rug - they shouldn't have to, hell, for Britain it's almost pathetic because it's the last significant thing we did in donkey's years; so a source of national pride. This is probably a bit of a rant by now but what I am essentially saying is that both Germany and Japan need to be able to converse about these things whilst you still have countries like Poland and China who will keep bringing it up, as the issues affect them to this day (see: Poland's population if WW2 hadn't happened), this is to say nothing about 'learning the lessons'.
What does it say to the Chinese (can you imagine being Chinese?) when the Japanese revise history? Can you imagine the indignation if German textbooks didn't mention the Holocaust?
As for my alleged racism: perhaps I phrased it a tad offensively, as I rather deliberately assumed a 4chan-esque rendition of peacetime Japan. But I did so within the context of using them as an example as to the benefits of conquering an enemy and dictating his initial redevelopment.
I do, however, possess an animosity toward the substantial number of people who possess an affinity for Japan that borders on what I judge to be obsession. Or see things in it that I consider utterly patronising: I.E. the types who watch The Last Samurai and suddenly decide 'zomg, Japan will heal me spiritually' and project false images onto the country. I wonder what the average John Doe in Japan thinks when he sees a bunch of white guys arguing over Naruto or some bogus. I don't know, I shan't continue this point as I fear I'll become unduly offensive... but I refer to those who have a variety of harsh nicknames that, again, you'd probably come across on 4chan... and start with W.
Oh and to finally prove that I am not racist: I mentioned that I play Shogun 2. How could I hate Japan? Tsk.
Now, hang on. I am interested in Japan as a nation and a culture, but I am not "obsessed" by it. I have seen The Last Samurai, And I can assure you, I felt no need to go there for a spiritual awakening. I would like to visit Japan, but simply because it looks a nice place to visit. The reason I often defend Japan is simply because I feel it recieves a lot of unnecessary flak. I too find die-hard obsessive fans of Japan (or any other nation or culture) annoying, and I do pity the Japanese who do have to put up with the swirling crowds of Narutards who constantly badger them. However, I do think that, sarcastic or not, your 4chanesque summary was a little inappropriate. Suppose Kilkrazy had been on the thread...
Also, you mentioned how the Chinese must feel when the Japanese attempt to revise history-the Chinese (and even the Koreans) are notorious for revising their history to an extent that would make even the most uber-nationalist Japanese (or German) spit out their tea/lager in shock.
Anyway, I must admit that I am deeply skeptical of mainstream WW2 history. It seems far too cut-and-dried, with the "good guys" (Britain, America, France, etc...) and "bad guys" (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc..) too well defined. It almost seems like a Hollywood movie. Now, I'm not defending the awful things that the Axis powers did, and I'm no holocaust denier (although I do have my suspicions about Nanking) but it all just seems a little...perfect. Just my opinion.
Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
Yes thou shalt not argue with DACHSHUNDSKRIEG! However Team Wienie has granted permission to discuss the point.
Asia only for this discussion.
Fact. Japanese invaded/made protectorate Manchuria - aka Northern China.
Fact. Over time Japan invaded/made a protectorate - portions of the rest of China.
Fact.. Japan invaded and conquered Korea.
Fact. In 1941-1942 Japan conquered the Phillipines, modern day Vietnam, modern day Laos, modern day Cambodia, Thailand, Singapore, and other portions of Asia.
Squigsquasher wrote:Now, hang on. I am interested in Japan as a nation and a culture, but I am not "obsessed" by it. I have seen The Last Samurai, And I can assure you, I felt no need to go there for a spiritual awakening. I would like to visit Japan, but simply because it looks a nice place to visit. The reason I often defend Japan is simply because I feel it recieves a lot of unnecessary flak. I too find die-hard obsessive fans of Japan (or any other nation or culture) annoying, and I do pity the Japanese who do have to put up with the swirling crowds of Narutards who constantly badger them. However, I do think that, sarcastic or not, your 4chanesque summary was a little inappropriate. Suppose Kilkrazy had been on the thread...
Also, you mentioned how the Chinese must feel when the Japanese attempt to revise history-the Chinese (and even the Koreans) are notorious for revising their history to an extent that would make even the most uber-nationalist Japanese (or German) spit out their tea/lager in shock.
Anyway, I must admit that I am deeply skeptical of mainstream WW2 history. It seems far too cut-and-dried, with the "good guys" (Britain, America, France, etc...) and "bad guys" (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc..) too well defined. It almost seems like a Hollywood movie. Now, I'm not defending the awful things that the Axis powers did, and I'm no holocaust denier (although I do have my suspicions about Nanking) but it all just seems a little...perfect. Just my opinion.
Nanking appears to have a lot of 'iffy' details and doctored stuff, but I wasn't exactly implying the Chinese had a perfect record. Nevertheless, millions happened to be missing... and I think that Allied PoWs can testify to Japanese brutality in the prisoner of war camps.
If Japan receives a lot of flak, I don't see why they should care.. they should be laughing; they won the war
I was going to argue, but I can't stop laughing at your signiature...Mainly that bit about the pancake batter and chocolate chip encrusted sausage...FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still, (sticking to Asia again) I do wonder just how many of the tales of Japanese military brutality are entirely true, and how many are ever so slightly economical with the truth...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Henners91 wrote:
Squigsquasher wrote:Now, hang on. I am interested in Japan as a nation and a culture, but I am not "obsessed" by it. I have seen The Last Samurai, And I can assure you, I felt no need to go there for a spiritual awakening. I would like to visit Japan, but simply because it looks a nice place to visit. The reason I often defend Japan is simply because I feel it recieves a lot of unnecessary flak. I too find die-hard obsessive fans of Japan (or any other nation or culture) annoying, and I do pity the Japanese who do have to put up with the swirling crowds of Narutards who constantly badger them. However, I do think that, sarcastic or not, your 4chanesque summary was a little inappropriate. Suppose Kilkrazy had been on the thread...
Also, you mentioned how the Chinese must feel when the Japanese attempt to revise history-the Chinese (and even the Koreans) are notorious for revising their history to an extent that would make even the most uber-nationalist Japanese (or German) spit out their tea/lager in shock.
Anyway, I must admit that I am deeply skeptical of mainstream WW2 history. It seems far too cut-and-dried, with the "good guys" (Britain, America, France, etc...) and "bad guys" (Germany, Japan, Italy, etc..) too well defined. It almost seems like a Hollywood movie. Now, I'm not defending the awful things that the Axis powers did, and I'm no holocaust denier (although I do have my suspicions about Nanking) but it all just seems a little...perfect. Just my opinion.
Nanking appears to have a lot of 'iffy' details and doctored stuff, but I wasn't exactly implying the Chinese had a perfect record. Nevertheless, millions happened to be missing... and I think that Allied PoWs can testify to Japanese brutality in the prisoner of war camps.
If Japan receives a lot of flak, I don't see why they should care.. they should be laughing; they won the war
Well, thank you for that. Deeply interesting...But, hang on...I can see no way that Japan won the war. Hundreds of thousands of their civilians died, the country was practically brought to it's knees, their military was disbanded (which even the Japanese will agree was a good thing in some ways)...If that's winning, I'd hate to lose (Yes, I know you were being sarcastic, but...I don't get it...)
Squigsquasher wrote:I was going to argue, but I can't stop laughing at your signiature...Mainly that bit about the pancake batter and chocolate chip encrusted sausage...FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still, (sticking to Asia again) I do wonder just how many of the tales of Japanese military brutality are entirely true, and how many are ever so slightly economical with the truth...
Family lore has it that my grandfather was one of the ones who helped smuggle pictures out of what was going on in China (sea captain at the time and China was on his run). When I was younger I was rifling through a bunch of old pics in one of our old chests (Chinese strangely enough), and found some really gruesome pics. Mom said they were some of the pics her dad had from before the war.
There's no blame here. These generations are gone, like the Persians, and slave owners in the Antebellum South. Acknowledge it with a hearty "never again," a prayer, and move on.
Incidentally, I have seen something supposedly disproving a lot of said photographs (swords held the wrong way, shadows facing different directions) but that's another story...
Suffice to say, this thread should get back on topic.
Squigsquasher wrote:Well, thank you for that. Deeply interesting...But, hang on...I can see no way that Japan won the war. Hundreds of thousands of their civilians died, the country was practically brought to it's knees, their military was disbanded (which even the Japanese will agree was a good thing in some ways)...If that's winning, I'd hate to lose (Yes, I know you were being sarcastic, but...I don't get it...)
Two words: Marshall Aid.
Adequately persuade two industrious countries that war doesn't work as a policy tool and that economic warfare is the method of power projection for tomorrow, give them startup moneys and hey-presto; two powerhouses embarrassing the US in the 1980s
Plus they got a constitutional monarchy, democracy, free love, apple pie, etc.
And who are these cat-worshipping heretics you mention in your signiature? And when are you going to do a Dachshundkrieg Imperial Guard army? And does my avatar make me look fat? And does the Lavender Town theme really make people commit suicide? What's with Flava Flav, and the clock? Where's me washboard? Why am I asking these stupid questions?
And who are these cat-worshipping heretics you mention in your signiature? And when are you going to do a Dachshundkrieg Imperial Guard army? And does my avatar make me look fat? And does the Lavender Town theme really make people commit suicide? What's with Flava Flav, and the clock? Where's me washboard? Why am I asking these stupid questions?
Stay tuned to the next exciting adventure of Underdog to the answer to these exciting questions!
Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).
Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
Squigsquasher wrote:I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
If you look at the scientific (or pseudo-scientific depending on your persuasion) literature of the time, the actions of Japan and Germany weren't wholy irrational. The problem with the Axis nations (and the USSR) was their system of government that allowed those abuses to be perpetrated. More democratic countries had much fewer incidents of racism and abuses because of increased transparency.
I'm not sure the ones shoved into the ovens in germany and Eastern Europe or the wholesale slaughter on the Eastern front that killed millions of civilians would call that...rational.
Frazzled wrote:I'm not sure the ones shoved into the ovens in germany and Eastern Europe or the wholesale slaughter on the Eastern front that killed millions of civilians would call that...rational.
Well of course not. But their political, intellectual, and (most importantly) armed superiors felt that way.
Eugenics was more than just a scary word in the early 20th century.
Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).
RatBot wrote:
You heard it here first, North Korea has created Godzilla, or some other gigantic city-burning monster that suspiciously resembles a man stomping around in a suit made of rubber.
Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).
I think the Barbary States might've.
Native Americans did too. We played hardcore on the frontier.
Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).
I think the Barbary States might've.
Native Americans did too. We played hardcore on the frontier.
Russian organized crime does so on a daily basis. Women, at least.
One could argue that pulling out folks who were thrown into the various debtors prisons and selling them to ship owners and captains who then transported them to the New World and sold them as indentureds (when they had little to no control over the terms of the indenture) was a form of slavery.
Often indentures were kept in debt to extend the period of their indenture. I'm pretty sure a majority never lived long enough to finish their indentured service to enjoy freedom, at least in the early colonial times.
Sorry for the overeaction, I done early colonial times for my history degree and it was all they mentioned, whilst ignoring the interesting stuff like the Bacon rebellion and the Salem witch trials.
Anyway, back OT. I can't believe Frazz is laughing at Turkey in the Korean war. They aquitted themselves quite well and had a reputation for ferocity and last ditch defending.
Was watching McArthur the other day (Gregory Peck) and the scene were he is ordered to only destroy half a bridge (Yalu river or something?) prompts the reply: "In all my years of military training I've never learned how to destroy half a bridge." Always makes me laugh.
Squigsquasher wrote:Or...Is it? Let's not forget that history is always written by the victors, which in this case, was us (and America). Like I say, NOT defending Hitler/mussolini etc...I just find it hard to believe that things were THAT black and white. Still, you do have Weiner Dogs on your side, so I shan't argue too much.
The Japanese were the only people to make slaves of free English men since (pre-?) Roman times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Railway also note modern japan ! = war-time japan. I'm sure most Japanese people are lovely (I may be visiting Japan in summer, in fact).
I think the Barbary States might've.
Native Americans did too. We played hardcore on the frontier.
Russian organized crime does so on a daily basis. Women, at least.
I'm just going with British (maybe you are too). I know slavery exists to this day in several portions of the world.
Frazzled wrote: Acknowledge it with a hearty "never again," a prayer, and move on.
Well, at least acknowledge it as a first step...
Yes right, there was that business some years ago now where a load of the school history books had changed to paint Japan in a better light. I think several hundred teachers resigned over it, although I'm not sure about what the end result was.
I was living in Korea during the earthquake that hit Japan. Of course there was a lot of sympathy, especially among the younger generation, whereas from my experience the older people tended to shrug and say something along the lines of "they had it coming". Some of the stuff the Japanese did in Korea (like China), essentially trying to destroy a culture and civilization, was beyond belief. Like the Nazi treatment of the Jews, conceptualising your victims as being less than human, a lower form of life, allows people to do unthinkable things to each other. That's not to say the Allies were all smiles, roses and John Wayne shooting lazy from the hip - they too did some bloody terrible stuff, and a lot of people in powerful positions were made infeasibly rich by it. But, war is raw backwards as they say, and it's important to try and remember the reasons why the war happened - hopefully (although who am I kidding here? ) to stop them happening again.
Conversely, I've found that Germany seems to go almost too far regarding the feeling of national shame. There was a joke years ago on a comedy sketch show called Harry Enfield (which most Brits over a certain age will be familiar with), where a German guy in Britain starts apologising for his people's actions during the war - at bus stops, supermarkets, wherever. Like most comedy it comes from observation, and indeed I think WW2 and the events surrounding it still seem to hang around the neck of the country.
From my own experience, I met a German chap the same age as me some years ago at a party. Drunken conversation eventually inadvertently turned to the war, and the change in his character was unbelievable - eyes to the floor, I couldn't get a word out of him afterwards. I mean, of course it is vital that WW2, and specifically Hitler's rise to power (and the reasons for it) are remembered, but this guy was 4 or 5 generations removed from those events.
Regarding the OP, NK periodically makes 'sea of fire', sometimes 'lake of fire' speaches regarding Seoul, usually every 6 months or so (I think they could really do with a new script writer to try and come up with something more imaginative). In fact this one was a little overdue, perhaps the countdown to the next one was stopped in-between Kim Jong Il dying and his son coming into power.
a special military attack that would reduce parts of Seoul to ash “in three or four minutes ... by unprecedented peculiar means and methods of our own style.”
You heard it here first, North Korea has created Godzilla, or some other gigantic city-burning monster that suspiciously resembles a man stomping around in a suit made of rubber.
Frazzled wrote:I think you counter punched your own point Dogma.
"Obviously there was no Holocaust in the US."
Fewer doesn't mean "less severe", it means "fewer".
Well in this case fewer does mean less severe, but geometric factors.
Any attempt to compare the US and Nazi germany is just asinine and completely unsupportable. Seriously.
They slaughtered millions we...er stopped them. Yes. easy to compare.
Hey you weren't exactly quick off the mark.. Us cynical Brits tend to think that chasing the dollars flogging us gak tanks was more important than helping the Jews out.
Frazzled wrote:
Any attempt to compare the US and Nazi germany is just asinine and completely unsupportable. Seriously.
Its actually pretty easy to support. They interned Jews, we interned the Japanese.
The severity wasn't similar, but it was still comparable behavior.
Oh well, we're all evil it seems.
They slaughtered millions we...er stopped them. Yes. easy to compare.
Internment was still inexcusable, and there ARE parallels. But it's apples to passionfruit against the Holocaust.
Agreed. Every country has done bad things, including Louisiana. But attempting in some way to make the comparisons between the Allied Powers and what the Axis Powers did is the height of sophistry or one of those other five dollar words I've forgetten since the senility started kicking in.
They slaughtered millions we...er stopped them. Yes. easy to compare.
Hey you weren't exactly quick off the mark.. Us cynical Brits tend to think that chasing the dollars flogging us gak tanks was more important than helping the Jews out.
out. 
)
) to stop them happening again.
