Given the quantity of wargear across all codices, it's no surprise that for every combat-breaking item out there (looking at you, Psychostroke Grenades), there are many, many not worth their points or so narrow in utility you might as well not chance it and just spam more melta.

However, many of those come from legitimately cool ideas, badly implemented. So he's a chance to pick a weapon you don't field but would like to, and bring it up to the barest minimum of efficacy.

-Heavy Bolter: After all the PC games, I think we can all agree that the heavy bolter is pretty mean. Marines use it on the move, mowing down hordes and heavies at will, firing until it runs dry. Sadly the tabletop version is a disappointment; it has only 1 extra shot over the regular bolter, at the cost of immobility. It has good range, but that's really all you can say about it. S5 is not bad but will not scare vehicles or the biggest MCs away, and AP 4 may as well be the most pointless AP category since it's just enough to be made moot by any sort of cover. It's a weapon that makes no sense if not on a vehicle, and in that case there are often better picks.

Suggested change: S5, AP 4, Assault2/Heavy5. Giving it a higher S would overlap roles with the assault cannon, and AP3 is a bit too strong. Like this, it as least gives you a bit of heavier fire on the move, and the equivalent of an extra 2 guys' worth of fire if you stay put.

-Reaper Autocannon: Not necessarily bad. Twin-linked S7 fire has its place against lighter vehicles. However, it's too steep a buck for its bang.

Suggested change: S7, AP 4, Heavy 2, Twin-linked, Ignores Cover. Incorporating the rules for the cover-ignoring Sternguard round would give it some fun applications, especially against orks. Should that prove too powerful, making it Heavy 3 may also work (Or make it Heavy 4 at the expense of being Twin-linked).

-Plasma Pistol: Very cool in practice, but again, hampered by its cost vs. use ratio. its range and the available units that can pick it usually means the model will be in assault often, meaning it will not get fired. Most cases, you'll be lucky to pull off 2 shots per game, with a non-trivial chance of cooking the very model you paid so much for as to carry one of these.

Suggested changes: This one is tough. Cutting the cost by 1/3rd may be the easiest way out, but there is also the option of going all-out on making it an assault weapon: S7 AP 2 Assault2, with a 6" range and Gets Hot!. Alternatively, nerfing it a little bit in exchange for safety and rate of fire: S5 AP2 Assault 2, with the usual 12" range.

-

Shuriken Catapult - Range 18"
Avenger Catapult - Range 24"

I have just fixed half* of the Eldar codex.




*Wild over-exaggeration.

Sniper Rifle: A lot of flak has been tossed around by this, but I think that 60" range, wounds on 3+, rending, pinning. Unsaved wounds impose a -1 ld penalty to the pinning. A 5 point increase in cost (10 points per model) makes this something of use.

Lascannon - line weapon. srsly.

Pulse Carbine - Grenade Launcher. Pulse Rifle - Assault 1, 15" doubletap. (not really subpar, but in context they're unfitting)

Chainswords - Reroll 1's.

Mortars: add Krak rounds, theyre str 7 ap 4, use small blast template but only targets in the center hole are hit.

Hotshot lasguns: Give them standard lasgun range, allow sarges, vets, and special weapon squads able to take them as an upgrade.

I'd say just have Mortars scatter D6" rather than 2D6"; factoring in Guardsman BS means the most it can scatter is 3", making it a lot more accurate.

For firing without LoS, it'd simply scatter the entire D6 (still making it decently accurate) and in Night Fighting it'd only scatter 2D6" instead of 3D6".

Tau
Pulse Rifle: Str 5 ap5, Range 30" Rapid fire range 15"

Markerlight: Missile, the missile auto hits (seriously at bs freakin 3, having to hit with a markerlight, then hit with a missile is STUPID!!!)

Eldar:
Shurikan catapult Assault 2 18"
Avenger catapult assault 2 24"
Star cannon Str 5 ap 2 heavy 2 (5-10 point price reduction)

Missile is fired at BS5 I believe.

It is, yes.

As for the Starcannon, making it S5 solves nothing. Either give it an extra shot (for 25-35pts depending on what you tack it onto, i'd say it's fair enough) or make it S7 (for all the advanced technology, they still haven't been able to combine power and stability? I don't believe that for a second).

chrisrawr wrote:Sniper Rifle: A lot of flak has been tossed around by this, but I think that 60" range, wounds on 3+, rending, pinning. Unsaved wounds impose a -1 ld penalty to the pinning. A 5 point increase in cost (10 points per model) makes this something of use.

Lascannon - line weapon. srsly.

Pulse Carbine - Grenade Launcher. Pulse Rifle - Assault 1, 15" doubletap. (not really subpar, but in context they're unfitting)

Chainswords - Reroll 1's.

I miss the Hits on 2s / Wounds on 4 Sniper Rifles from the previous edition. :(

I wish that Heavy Bolters where as crazy as the OP mentioned.

Ork Kistom Mega Blasta: meant to kill terminators, vastly more likely to kill wielded due to Gets Hot! special rule. There must be some way to fix it?

Shuriken Catapult...range 18

Avenger Shuriken Catapult...range 24

Shuriken Cannon....range 24 strength 7, ap 4, assult 3

Distortion Cannon...range 24, wounds on 2+, Instant Death on 6+, vehicles glanced on 3-4, penetrated on 5-6, ignores cover (because as a hole is opened in the warp, the cover would be sucked in just like the guy you pointed the weapon at...there should be no cover save from these things)

Lasblaster...Range 24, Strength 3, AP 5, Rending

The computer game version should have been as lame as its tabletop cousin. Then no-one would be crapping on about "why isn't it as good as it is in WoDoW (I refer to ALL of these games as "World of Dawn of War").

The ENTIRE game should go back to its second ed roots. When guns meant something.

Pyrovore....

AP3 S6

I don't think you should be able to assault with a Heavy Bolter if you fire it, but I don't think it should stop you from moving at all. Some version of Rapid Fire perhaps?

I always liked the fluff behind the "If Ogryns are close enough, they auto hit with their gatling shotguns" but it's not really usable in the game.

If Ogryns could ID T4 on the charge, that would be pretty stellar. Maybe Ripper Guns giving them +2 Str? Although that would make them S7 normally with S8 on the charge... maybe not.

DoW

chromedog wrote:The computer game version should have been as lame as its tabletop cousin. Then no-one would be crapping on about "why isn't it as good as it is in WoDoW (I refer to ALL of these games as "World of Dawn of War").

The ENTIRE game should go back to its second ed roots. When guns meant something.

Computer games have to be balanced more sharply due to being tested by the public so much more intensely that tabletop versions. While someone may take weeks to get disappointed with an army or build on TT, the average gamer will try an upgrade once in PVP, decide it's crap, and never touch it again. "Huh, all CSM upgrades are bunk. This army is bunk. I'm clicking over and trying the Imperial Guard.". At zero extra monetary cost.

Also, saying that guns are meaningless in the metagame rules by meltaguns, autocannons, psycannons and splinter weaponry is a bit of a stretch. I think it can be said that (especially given the level of mech), CC may decide battles a lot of the time, but guns say when and if the CC happens.

18" Shuriken Catapult is insufficient in a world where 7 point Henchmen with Storm Bolters exist.

The OP was only to rework an underwhelming weapon, else i'd have Guardians costing 5-6pts each, factoring in their guardsman statline, albeit with 1 better I, but also the loss of 6" of range on their weaponry.

Heavy bolter - rapid fire 4 - stationary & 4 36" shots, move and 8 12" shots.

Phototoxin wrote:Heavy bolter - rapid fire 4 - stationary & 4 36" shots, move and 8 12" shots.

I'd say Rapid Fire 3 is more balanced.

8 shots is almost 3 current Heavy Bolters and consider that my LRBT would get 12 shots at 36" and 24 at 12"!

Speaking of which, how about making the Punisher Cannon Rapid Fire? Maybe I'd start fielding one or two

DoW

LRBT would be gaking scary with those HB... helllooo 15 S5 shotsand a big PIE plate on your face.....

MEQ, orks, guards, nids, even GK, would anything be left standing ?

Lasgun - Str 9, AP 2, Range 24", Rapid Fire.

Why shouldn't a lascannon and a lasgun act the same (Seriously though, an AP 3 Angelus Boltgun with Assault 1)

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Lasgun - Str 9, AP 2, Range 24", Rapid Fire.

Why shouldn't a lascannon and a lasgun act the same?

Why shouldn't a supermarket checkout scanner and an industrial metal cutting laser act the same?

Actually that would be pretty entertaining. Let's do that!

DoW

mayfist wrote:LRBT would be gaking scary with those HB... helllooo 15 S5 shotsand a big PIE plate on your face.....

MEQ, orks, guards, nids, even GK, would anything be left standing ?

GK would be getting 5-shot paybacks with those rules...

Leman Russ Vanquisher
- Boost points by 10-20 to prevent the LRBT becoming obsolete
- Allow it to switch between standard Battle Cannon or Vanquisher rounds.

Kustom Mega Blasta
- Assault 2 instead of Assault 1.

Zzap Gun
- Bring back the auto-hit rule from 4th Ed.

Transdimentional Beamer
- Assault 1 instead of Heavy 1.

Ogryn Ripper Guns w/ optional powered bayonet, +15pts a model

Spinefists
Rg 12"Str 4, AP 6, Twinlinked Assault X (X=number of attacks on creature's profile). Spinefists grant +1 attack in Combat.

Fleshborers
Rg 12" Str 4, AP 5, Assault 1, Living Ammunition.

/thread.

Hotshots lasgung 24'' str 4 ap 3

Deadshot wrote:Spinefists
Rg 12"Str 4, AP 6, Twinlinked Assault X (X=number of attacks on creature's profile). Count as 2 CCW in CC./thread.

Tyranids don't get a boost from multiple combat weapons. Spinefists should probably +1 to attacks if you feel that way.

Bugger. Editing.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Spinefists
Rg 12"Str 4, AP 6, Twinlinked Assault X (X=number of attacks on creature's profile). Count as 2 CCW in CC./thread.

Tyranids don't get a boost from multiple combat weapons. Spinefists should probably +1 to attacks if you feel that way.

Not strictly true. Their biomorphs only apply to their already present attacks, and aren't actually weapons. If a nid actually did somehow gain 2 ccw, it would get the benefits of +1A.

No, Blap was right. Pg 33 of the Nid codex sopecifically states that they never gain bonus attacks for multiple CCW. The tradeoff is that they gain the benefits of all their CCW. So a model with Lash Whip, Scything Talons and Boneswords with have a Power Weapon, reduce an enemy in Base contact to |Int 1 and reroll 1s to hit in CC, and any model wounded by it would have to pass a Ld test or suffer ID.

Also, hey do in fact have CCW, not just biomorphs. Biomorphs are something different to weapons. They are basically wargear that gives special rules rather than weapons. For example, a Pyrovore has an acid maw. It ignores saves in CC. But Aid Maw is not a Power Weapon. It simply states that the CC attacks of a Pyrovore ignore armour saves.

chrisrawr wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Spinefists
Rg 12"Str 4, AP 6, Twinlinked Assault X (X=number of attacks on creature's profile). Count as 2 CCW in CC./thread.

Tyranids don't get a boost from multiple combat weapons. Spinefists should probably +1 to attacks if you feel that way.

Not strictly true. Their biomorphs only apply to their already present attacks, and aren't actually weapons. If a nid actually did somehow gain 2 ccw, it would get the benefits of +1A.

But no nid has 2 CCWs, and Spinefists are Biomorphs, so it applies in this situation.

Spinefists are not Biomorphes. Biomorphs are Nid equipment that are not weapons.

In fact, many Nids do have multiple CCW. They just have a special rule stating theydon't gain extra attacks from them.
Any of the following is not a biomorph for Nids.
Any thing with a gun's profile. These are weapons.

The following are all CCW.
Boneswords
Lash Whips
Claws+Teeth
Rending Claws
Crushing Claws
Scything Talons.

Deadshot wrote:
In fact, many Nids do have multiple CCW. They just have a special rule stating theydon't gain extra attacks from them.

Actually, it is the other way around: there is no special rule that states that nids can't have +1 A from double CCW-s (or at least i can't find it in the codex), but their only close-combat weapon is the 'claws and teeth'.

To clarify, I quote from page 33 of the Tyranid Codex, under the heading Tyranid Close Combat Weapons:

"As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile."

That seems pretty clear to me.

First look at Pg 83. The heading at the top is CCWs. From that section you can see that Boneswords, Lashwhips and all of those are CCW. C+T are normal CCW. All this means is that they get no bonus rules and will simply attack as normal.

Then look at the top right hand corner of Pg 33. It states that a Nid with 2+ CCW gains no bonus attacks. These will be given in a creatures profile.

Edit: Blap Ninja'd me.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:To clarify, I quote from page 33 of the Tyranid Codex, under the heading Tyranid Close Combat Weapons:

"As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon - these bonuses are always included in the creature's profile."

That seems pretty clear to me.

Aaaahhh... Page 33... And i tried to find it in the wargears section... Silly me !

Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

It wasn't bad before, but Guardian-based lists have suffered from a lack of power-weapon sergeants. I like this variant better; plus it's more in-line with the fluff portrayal of Witchblades as Eldar Force Weapons when everyone else's Force Weapons are power weapons.

Simply make a Glaive Encarmine a relic blade. It would make Sanguinary Guard a helluva lot better in the game.

Maybe even allow a 6++? Or is that pushing it a bit?

*update*
Ripper Guns get Rending Rule (shooting and melee

AnomanderRake wrote:Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

It wasn't bad before, but Guardian-based lists have suffered from a lack of power-weapon sergeants. I like this variant better; plus it's more in-line with the fluff portrayal of Witchblades as Eldar Force Weapons when everyone else's Force Weapons are power weapons.

so make it like an agonizer but better?





Blast Pistol, change range to 9" and decrease cost 5 points

Shredder: remove blast, assault 3

Void Lance. Change to AP1

Implosion Missiles. Change completely to Str4 AP1 Large Blast, glance anything on a 6.

Shatterfield Missiles. Reroll armor penetration

@Exergy isn't the agonizer a 4+ power weapon? Isn't that what he proposed? ;s

Exorcist Missile Launcher - 3+D3 hits.

Grot Blasta - Rending.

Power Weapons in general - +D3 armour penetration.

Eradicator cannon: Str 6 ap 3 ordiance large blast

Infernous pistol. increase cost by 5 increase range to 12".

thestormlord wrote:Infernous pistol. increase cost by 5 increase range to 12".

So it is actually better than a.meltagun? No. Keep the range the same. The infernus pistol is perfect.

chrisrawr wrote:@Exergy isn't the agonizer a 4+ power weapon? Isn't that what he proposed? ;s

AnomanderRake wrote:
Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

OR BETTER

I dont like them as posioned weapons, I dont like them as Agonizers, I dont like them as rending weapons. To me they need their own functionallity that makes them unique and then point costs to balance.

Exergy wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:@Exergy isn't the agonizer a 4+ power weapon? Isn't that what he proposed? ;s

AnomanderRake wrote:
Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

OR BETTER

I dont like them as posioned weapons, I dont like them as Agonizers, I dont like them as rending weapons. To me they need their own functionallity that makes them unique and then point costs to balance.

Could we just have them as Master-Crafted Force Weapons? Just throwing about ideas here.

Make Chainswords better- Scouts with pistol and knife have same amount of attacks as an assault marine and chainswords are so much better than knives-

1) -1 armour save to wounds from one?
2) +1 to wound
3) reroll ones to wound as they tear flesh???

Lightning Shadows wrote:Make Chainswords better- Scouts with pistol and knife have same amount of attacks as an assault marine and chainswords are so much better than knives-

1) -1 armour save to wounds from one?
2) +1 to wound
3) reroll ones to wound as they tear flesh???

I like #3. Not too excessive but shows that chainswords are more powerful.

DoW

Lightning Shadows wrote:Make Chainswords better- Scouts with pistol and knife have same amount of attacks as an assault marine and chainswords are so much better than knives-

1) -1 armour save to wounds from one?
2) +1 to wound
3) reroll ones to wound as they tear flesh???

Sounds logical, but a knife is really sharp, replacing the sundering of flesh with a single powerful slash or stab. I'd say it's pretty balanced.

Exergy wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:Witchblade. Close-combat weapon, power weapon, wounds on rolls of 4+ or better.

It wasn't bad before, but Guardian-based lists have suffered from a lack of power-weapon sergeants. I like this variant better; plus it's more in-line with the fluff portrayal of Witchblades as Eldar Force Weapons when everyone else's Force Weapons are power weapons.

so make it like an agonizer but better?

An Agonizer that hits at S9 against tanks and can only be taken on a minimum-30-pt squad leader with one Attack? Versus regular Agonizers that can be taken on I6 A3 Hekiatrix Syrens for 43pts...hike Warlock base cost to 30pts from 25, that should cover the difference.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Lightning Shadows wrote:Make Chainswords better- Scouts with pistol and knife have same amount of attacks as an assault marine and chainswords are so much better than knives-

1) -1 armour save to wounds from one?
2) +1 to wound
3) reroll ones to wound as they tear flesh???

Sounds logical, but a knife is really sharp, replacing the sundering of flesh with a single powerful slash or stab. I'd say it's pretty balanced.

Would you rather be stabbed with a knife or a chainsaw?

Though I somewhat agree. The SM knife is not just a standard blade, it's often described as having a monomolecular edge or being a lesser version of a vibroblade, both of which would definitely make it more killy.

DoW

All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+

I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.

Something like this:

Sniper Rifle Variant 1 (weakest) - effective range ~800 meters:
Current Sniper - R30" SX AP5 Heavy 1, Sniper

Variant 2 - effective range ~1000 meters:
R36" SX AP4 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 3+, S5 against vehicles)

Variant 3 - effective range ~1400 meters:
R42" SX AP3 Heavy 1 Sniper (Wounds on 2+, S6 against Vehicles)

Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S7 against vehicles)

AnomanderRake wrote:
An Agonizer that hits at S9 against tanks and can only be taken on a minimum-30-pt squad leader with one Attack? Versus regular Agonizers that can be taken on I6 A3 Hekiatrix Syrens for 43pts...hike Warlock base cost to 30pts from 25, that should cover the difference.

so on a warlock which has passive psykic powers and a 4++ save. Great against vehicles and dreadnaughts, better against infantry and all for just a few points. Seer councils are already great as they are. This would just make them silly. Should they be close combat gods you suggest?

Snipers should not be 2+ to hit. Sure you can put the bullet in better, but the placement of the shot still depends on the marksmenship of the user.


And FYI (for those who don't know) marksmenship isn't jut about shooting in the right spot. Its about factoring in wind, gravity, force, distance, even things like gravity and where the target will move. Placing a bullet where he is going to be is better than putting it where he was. Even things like potential faults in the round can make the difference between a kilkl and a wound, or a hit and a miss. One tiny fleck of paint can alter everything.

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+
I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.
Something like this:
Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S10 against vehicles)

the range of a missle or a tanks cannon. Higher strength than a anti tank missile, higher strength than a tank's cannon. If we posses this technology, why does anyone in the world field anything but sniper rifles? why not fit a sniper riffle in the turret of a tank instead of a 120mm cannon?

I am constantly surprised by the wet dreams people have about sniper rifles. Its a rifle, it can be used to take out soft targets but not hardened bunkers. It lacks the punch, sorry.

Exergy wrote:

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+
I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.
Something like this:
Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S10 against vehicles)

the range of a missle or a tanks cannon. Higher strength than a anti tank missile, higher strength than a tank's cannon. If we posses this technology, why does anyone in the world field anything but sniper rifles? why not fit a sniper riffle in the turret of a tank instead of a 120mm cannon?

I am constantly surprised by the wet dreams people have about sniper rifles. Its a rifle, it can be used to take out soft targets but not hardened bunkers. It lacks the punch, sorry.

except that the range of various weapons in 40k is way off. Missiles have a far longer range than sniper rifles (for instance, a Javelin Missile has an effective range of 4500 meters or 5500 against jets and a 120mm cannon has a range of around 4000m), as do tank cannons. Sure, it can't take out a bunker, but in 40,000 years when everything is supersized, why would their most powerful sniper rifle not be insane? A Vindicare can roll 4d6 for armor pen with an AP1 sniper weapon. Granted, S10 may be too high, but the most powerful modern day day anti-material rifles are capable of piercing 6 inches of steel and killing the target within the APC. Also, Missiles, tank cannons, etc hold far more power than a Sniper rifle, which is why they are not used for taking out singular points on vehicles or soft targets. You don't need a tank to take out a single person for obvious reasons. You also can't put a rifle on a tank and expect to get the same results, unless you are taking a tank into a forest and are going to try to sniper someone with it.

Deadshot wrote:Snipers should not be 2+ to hit. Sure you can put the bullet in better, but the placement of the shot still depends on the marksmenship of the user.


And FYI (for those who don't know) marksmenship isn't jut about shooting in the right spot. Its about factoring in wind, gravity, force, distance, even things like gravity and where the target will move. Placing a bullet where he is going to be is better than putting it where he was. Even things like potential faults in the round can make the difference between a kill and a wound, or a hit and a miss. One tiny fleck of paint can alter everything.

Then a sniper+spotter unit would increase the snipers BS by 2. A dedicated sniper would have the skill necessary to do the job. This also makes me wonder why a model with BS3 is given a sniper rifle...

Lighter Armour and Infiltrate, methinks.

And on the subject of Witchblades, I think it could work if by passing a Psychic Test, it becomes Str 6, and it is already a Force Weapon.

Maybe varients of Psyker powers for a witchblade type, like different NFW?

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+

I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.

Something like this:

Sniper Rifle Variant 1 (weakest) - effective range ~800 meters:
Current Sniper - R30" SX AP5 Heavy 1, Sniper

Variant 2 - effective range ~1000 meters:
R36" SX AP4 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 3+, S5 against vehicles)

Variant 3 - effective range ~1400 meters:
R42" SX AP3 Heavy 1 Sniper (Wounds on 2+, S6 against Vehicles)

Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S7 against vehicles)

No to hitting on a 2+. Using a models normal BS is fine (although the spotter rule is good, I've always liked the idea of IG sniper teams)

As far as the AP is concerned for standard snipers, keep in mind that the rocket-propelled, mass-reactive coke cans fired by a heavy bolter designed to blow people apart are only AP4. AP1 is a little extreme.

I think the idea of an anti-material rifle would be good though. Sort of a mini-exitus rifle. Something along these lines?

Anti-Material Rifle - 36", Str X, AP3, Heavy 1, Sniper, Depleted Uranium*

*Rolls an additional D3 for armour penetration.

Doesn't have the range, AP or Str of a Lascannon, but still has an AP range of 5-15 (with rending) and fits the idea of somewhat reliably putting a hole through a transport/light tank/MC or MEQ.
DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+

I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.

Something like this:

Sniper Rifle Variant 1 (weakest) - effective range ~800 meters:
Current Sniper - R30" SX AP5 Heavy 1, Sniper

Variant 2 - effective range ~1000 meters:
R36" SX AP4 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 3+, S5 against vehicles)

Variant 3 - effective range ~1400 meters:
R42" SX AP3 Heavy 1 Sniper (Wounds on 2+, S6 against Vehicles)

Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S7 against vehicles)

No to hitting on a 2+. Using a models normal BS is fine (although the spotter rule is good, I've always liked the idea of IG sniper teams)

As far as the AP is concerned for standard snipers, keep in mind that the rocket-propelled, mass-reactive coke cans fired by a heavy bolter designed to blow people apart are only AP4. AP1 is a little extreme.

I think the idea of an anti-material rifle would be good though. Sort of a mini-exitus rifle. Something along these lines?

Anti-Material Rifle - 36", Str X, AP3, Heavy 1, Sniper, Depleted Uranium*

*Rolls an additional D3 for armour penetration.

Doesn't have the range, AP or Str of a Lascannon, but still has an AP range of 5-15 (with rending) and fits the idea of somewhat reliably putting a hole through a transport/light tank/MC or MEQ.
DoW

well, the thing is that Bolters , as far as I know and can infer from descriptions of how they work, do not have as high a muzzle velocity as a sniper rifle. Also, keep in mind that Kraken penetrator rounds are more akin to an armor piercing round of current day militaries, and we even have APFSDS rounds, which are capable of insane feats of armor penetration. Bolter rounds simply explode, which is concussive force and heat, whereas a sniper AP round is pure kinetic energy focused onto the tip of a bullet that's travelling at over 2000 fps. Yeah, bolter rounds are supposed to penetrate flesh then explode, but that rarely happens.

I also thought of a unique mechanic for sniper and everything else, but it would be quite applicable to snipers: A sniper may reduce his BS to gain extra range. For every -1BS, his weapon gains +2" of range. So basically, the further away they are, the harder they are to hit. A BS 6 model could add 6" to the range of their weapon (representing their skill to hit targets that most normal people couldn't hit at such a range), or they could add 10", though BS1 isn't great odds to hit something.

DogOfWar wrote:

McNinja wrote:All Sniper Rifles: hits on 2+

I think there should also be different levels of Sniper Rifles, much there are in the modern Military.

Something like this:

Sniper Rifle Variant 1 (weakest) - effective range ~800 meters:
Current Sniper - R30" SX AP5 Heavy 1, Sniper

Variant 2 - effective range ~1000 meters:
R36" SX AP4 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 3+, S5 against vehicles)

Variant 3 - effective range ~1400 meters:
R42" SX AP3 Heavy 1 Sniper (Wounds on 2+, S6 against Vehicles)

Variant 4 (Strongest) - effective range ~2100 meters:
R48" SX AP1 Heavy 1, Sniper (wounds on 2+, deals two wounds instead of one when rending,S7 against vehicles)

No to hitting on a 2+. Using a models normal BS is fine (although the spotter rule is good, I've always liked the idea of IG sniper teams)

As far as the AP is concerned for standard snipers, keep in mind that the rocket-propelled, mass-reactive coke cans fired by a heavy bolter designed to blow people apart are only AP4. AP1 is a little extreme.

I think the idea of an anti-material rifle would be good though. Sort of a mini-exitus rifle. Something along these lines?

Anti-Material Rifle - 36", Str X, AP3, Heavy 1, Sniper, Depleted Uranium*

*Rolls an additional D3 for armour penetration.

Doesn't have the range, AP or Str of a Lascannon, but still has an AP range of 5-15 (with rending) and fits the idea of somewhat reliably putting a hole through a transport/light tank/MC or MEQ.
DoW

Personally this is what I am thinking for sniper rifles

Basic Sniper Rifle (something simple like a Long las or something) Range: 36" Str: X* AP: 5 Type: Heavy 1, Sniper
Advanced Sniper Rifle (something that some kind of elite unit might be given) Range: 36" Str: X* AP: 4 Type: Heavy 1, Sniper
Heavy Sniper Rifle (something similar to Tau rail rifles) Range: 36" Str: X** AP: 2 Type: Heavy 1, Sniper, Anti-Materiel***

*X: Wounds on a 3+
**X: Wounds on a 2+
***Anti-Materiel: Adds 1 to any damaged chart rolls against vehicles that aren't classified as tanks

DogOfWar wrote:
I think the idea of an anti-material rifle would be good though. Sort of a mini-exitus rifle. Something along these lines?

Anti-Material Rifle - 36", Str X, AP3, Heavy 1, Sniper, Depleted Uranium*

*Rolls an additional D3 for armour penetration.

Doesn't have the range, AP or Str of a Lascannon, but still has an AP range of 5-15 (with rending) and fits the idea of somewhat reliably putting a hole through a transport/light tank/MC or MEQ.
DoW

Why is it AP3? I dont see how it would completely ignore the massively thick and complex armor of space marines. Uranium is a rather terrible projectile in most cases, it is brittle so it has a tendency to shatter when it impacts a target, especilly an oblique hit. If it hits directly and does not shatter it has a nice chance to bore through armor but it doesnt always do it. Also to do it, it requires massive kinetic energy. Something a sniper rifles just doesnt have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

McNinja wrote:Granted, S10 may be too high, but the most powerful modern day day anti-material rifles are capable of piercing 6 inches of steel and killing the target within the APC

oooo 6" of steel? You know tanks dont use steel armor anymore because it doesnt disipate energy very well. they use much more effective composite armors.
seconld 6" is nothing, the 120mm on an M1A1 tank can penetrate 14 feet, that is 84" and it has the power to kill everyone on the other side of that armor not just anyone who happens to be on the other side of it.

Personally, I want Witchblades to always count as Str 9, not just when they are against vehicles. This would give something like Termies/Mega Nobz an armor save, but could 1 shot them upon getting through the armor. Similar to a Force Weapon, but different for Eldar.

I would change Shuriken Catapults/Avenger Shuriken Catapults to 18"/24" as talked about before. This is for obvious reasons that are part of why Eldar can't bring as much as other armies.

I would make Sniper Rifles just give a +1 to BS, I do not think that would break them too much. This would add the benefit of the scope on the rifle, but still keep it a rifle.

Eldar Lasblasters need either a Str + or an AP - to make them effective. I'm not entirely sure which one would be better, probably the Strength to make them a bit more relevant.

The last thing I really dislike isn't quite a weapon, but a rule for one. Gets Hot! I feel should be changed to making you not shoot for the next turn. Really, why in this Universe would someone wield a weapon that could leak all over them but doesn't go straight through their armor (as per their armor save). Are you telling me you can't make a weapon that has a reservoir to catch said overflowing plasma? Just 1 turn to service their weapon would make sense to me, maybe 2 if you really wanted to still make it a negative. Being wounded by it just seems...ridiculous.

Exergy wrote:Why is it AP3? I dont see how it would completely ignore the massively thick and complex armor of space marines. Uranium is a rather terrible projectile in most cases, it is brittle so it has a tendency to shatter when it impacts a target, especilly an oblique hit. If it hits directly and does not shatter it has a nice chance to bore through armor but it doesnt always do it. Also to do it, it requires massive kinetic energy. Something a sniper rifles just doesnt have.

Fluff - AP3 is pretty reasonable for the equivalent of modern anti-material rifles. SM armour is generally considered to be impervious to most small arms in the way an APC's armour would be. A few inches of ceramite is plenty when it comes to energy weaponry (excellent heat dissapation) but when faced with dedicated AP rounds, It would fail in the same way you can put holes through AV10 (A HMMWV, for instance).

"Real World" - Depleted Uranium is an excellent penetrator core for several different calibre ammunition but, yes, it's mainly used for 30mm cannon and above. The shattering effect of DU is actually part of the reason it makes such an effective penetrator (coupled with its weight and incendiary characteristics). A .50 BMG puts out something like 20kj of force —which is plenty to propel a DU round— and one can assume that higher kinetic energy/weight powders will probably be developed to make this even easier. Granted, there are new technologies out there for AP ammunition, but everyone knows Depleted Uranium (if only by name) and it sounds cool. That's really all that matters in the end.

Gameplay - I seem to notice people seem to see AP3 and immediately start throwing their hands up in outcry. Hotshot Lasguns were accused of being far too powerful at first until people sat down and realized you needed a 5+ to wound MEQ. This is a dedicated heavy weapon, like a Lascannon, and would be fielded in either heavy weapons teams (max of 3 per squad) or in a platoon/veteran squad (max of 1). A single shot, BS3 (or 4) weapon that wounds on a 4+ at 36" would not be game-breaking by any stretch of the imagination, even if it is AP3.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:"Real World" - Depleted Uranium is an excellent penetrator core for several different calibre ammunition but, yes, it's mainly used for 30mm cannon and above. The shattering effect of DU is actually part of the reason it makes such an effective penetrator (coupled with its weight and incendiary characteristics). A .50 BMG puts out something like 20kj of force —which is plenty to propel a DU round— and one can assume that higher kinetic energy/weight powders will probably be developed to make this even easier. Granted, there are new technologies out there for AP ammunition, but everyone knows Depleted Uranium (if only by name) and it sounds cool. That's really all that matters in the end.

The shattering effect is what people exploit to defeat it. Reactive armor chucks fire, intercept the projectile and cause it to shatter before it every hits the tank. DU is used on 30mm and more also on a rapid firing weapon. The first hit or two doesnt do much damage but it dents the armor slightly as it shatters. The third and forth round hit that dent and start driving itself into the armor.

Its all about the angle, the DU is brittle so it fails axially. If it gets into the right situation where it is being opposed on all sides of the projectile trying to shear its outer circumfrance off it fails at a nice clean 45 degree angle because as i said, brittle materials do not fail in shear. This then nice pointed 45 degree angle then pushes further into the armor and fails again at the same 45 degree angle. driving itself further and further into the armor while reducing its energy very little.

20kj isnt a lot compared with dedicated AT weapons. It also isnt a lot compared with modern tank armor. I expect armor to match weapons development or else why would there be tanks in the year 40k.

I think sniper rifles against armor is fine right now, I dont think they should have a chance against a Land Raider, which is described in the fluff as having no vulnerable spots like a tank of today. If anything I think sniper rifles would be more likely to do glancing damage than penetrating rolls.

IG Vet sentries - Their defensive grenades should be modified to add Claymores with the following profile: When assaulted, the Vets detonate their directional explosives that automatically hit every attacking model in the assaulting unit with a str 3 ap 5 hit before any close combat hits are rolled. If assaulted by more than one unit simultaneously the defending player may decide which unit will take the entirety of the blast, as veterans will surely know that to waste their anti-personal mines on things the size or strength of a tank is to invite certain death. Counts also as defensive mines. May only be used once per game.

Tau:
Burst Cannon=Heavy Bolter
Fusion Blaster= Multi-Melta
Missile Pod=Auto Cannon
Done.

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:Personally, I want Witchblades to always count as Str 9, not just when they are against vehicles. This would give something like Termies/Mega Nobz an armor save, but could 1 shot them upon getting through the armor. Similar to a Force Weapon, but different for Eldar.

actually not bad

Maybe just wound on 2+ and cause ID against all models without a test.

(EW obviously ignores ID)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then again you could make them old cron weapons

Ignore all saves, invunerable and armor, but wound on normal strenght.

Exergy wrote:

McNinja wrote:Granted, S10 may be too high, but the most powerful modern day day anti-material rifles are capable of piercing 6 inches of steel and killing the target within the APC

oooo 6" of steel? You know tanks dont use steel armor anymore because it doesnt disipate energy very well. they use much more effective composite armors.
seconld 6" is nothing, the 120mm on an M1A1 tank can penetrate 14 feet, that is 84" and it has the power to kill everyone on the other side of that armor not just anyone who happens to be on the other side of it.

First, Depleted Uranium rounds are often used instead of Tungsten or lead because of its ability to ignite after penetrating armor. Second, it's generally good to not come off as a condescending douchebag. Third, we aren't discussing the power of Tank shells. The vast majority of us can figure that a tank shell is better than a rifle round. Fourth, if DU was so bad, it wouldn't faceroll tanks. The only real problem is that it leaves behind traces of radiation. Fifth, The US military also uses Tungsten and Tungsten Carbide in AP capacities. Both are dense materials, and Tungsten Carbide is also extremely hard.

Last, but not least, you greatly overestimate the stopping power of Power Armor. It isn't massively thick and complex, in fact the complexities have little to do with it. Support systems within the suit don't count for beans if the ceramite plating surrounding them is breeched. It's high-tech ceramic. You know what ceramic does when it's shot? It shatters. That's why Ceramic bullet resistant vests are single use if they are shot with .50 cal rounds. Also, assuming the AdMech isn't completely slowed and actually uses more than just Ceramite plating, it's still metal, and can still be penetrated with proper application of force. Chobham armor used on the best tanks today can still be bypassed with enough force. You need three things to penetrate armor using kinetic energy penetrators: force, mass, and high muzzle velocity. Depleted Uranium has an incredibly high density, hence why it is used. GAU 8 Avenger cannons fire 30mm 425 gram projectiles at 3500 f/s, although that is a vehicle mounted anti-tank weapon on par with a Vulcan Mega Bolter. The IWS 2000 fires a 20 gram Tungsten flechette with a muzzle velocity of 4750 f/s, and is fully capable of penetrating the two walls of a modern APC, and is designed to be used against helicopters, radar cabins, light vehicles, fuel tanks, etc. While it may not pierce tank armor, it will most certainly take out any APC.

Oh, and one more thing; Vindicare Assassins have ammunition that will penetrate the crap out of tanks. It see no reason why a lesser version could not be made accessible to the Space Marines, and especially to dedicated Sniper teams. Larger caliber ammunition for the superhuman Power Armor wearing soldiers because they can handle the increased recoil (though the 30mm ammunition fired by the GAU 8 puts out 10,000 lbs of recoil, which a Space Marine couldn't even handle). The variants I posted were meant to be used by different soldier in different capacities, the most powerful only useable by dedicated SM sniper teams, while variant 3 would be the most powerful available to IG. The Space Marines, especially the Sternguard, have access to the powerful Kraken Penetrator ammunition. There is no reason why that type of ammunition, with its increased AP capabilities, could not be used in a SM sniper rifle, which by all rights should be a much larger round than even Bolters fire. The standard ammunition for soldiers today is 5.56mm NATO. Standard for large caliber rifles and heavy machine guns is .50 caliber (or 12.7mm). Now step it up to SM terms: standard ammo is 12.7mm. LMGs (to the SM, at least) fire .75 caliber rounds. Sniper rifles and heavy machine guns should fire 1.00 caliber rounds. Then, add the Kraken penetrator round into the equation: a special round designed to pierce armor at long ranges. Sure, standard ammo for other sniper rifles wouldn't be 1.00 caliber (just like not all sniper rifles use .50 cal, many use 7.62/.308 rounds for anti-personnel ops, and the Cheytac Intervention uses .406, if I'm not mistaken), but, the calibers and thus the stats, would vary similarly throughout the various armies.

Exergy wrote:The shattering effect is what people exploit to defeat it. Reactive armor chucks fire, intercept the projectile and cause it to shatter before it every hits the tank. DU is used on 30mm and more also on a rapid firing weapon. The first hit or two doesnt do much damage but it dents the armor slightly as it shatters. The third and forth round hit that dent and start driving itself into the armor.

Its all about the angle, the DU is brittle so it fails axially. If it gets into the right situation where it is being opposed on all sides of the projectile trying to shear its outer circumfrance off it fails at a nice clean 45 degree angle because as i said, brittle materials do not fail in shear. This then nice pointed 45 degree angle then pushes further into the armor and fails again at the same 45 degree angle. driving itself further and further into the armor while reducing its energy very little.

20kj isnt a lot compared with dedicated AT weapons. It also isnt a lot compared with modern tank armor. I expect armor to match weapons development or else why would there be tanks in the year 40k.

Actually, DU generally performs more effectively against reactive armours and 3-stage systems than Tungsten alloys, although there are always ongoing developments in technology. Here are a couple of good reads if you don't mind the dry format. Granted they're a little dated, but Wikipedia can only get you so far:

http://fhp.osd.mil/du/pdfs/1999279_0000010.pdf

http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_40/iss_3/JFS403950401.pdf

Oh and weapon technology has astronomically surpassed vehicle technology in 40k. The fact that tanks exist at all is purely for aesthetic and plot reasons, not any legitimate technological comparison. The humble Lasgun, for instance, is a mind-bogglingly complex piece of technology and they hand them out to any old shmoe. Tanks and treads do make things more grimdark, though, and I guess that's the idea.

DoW

EDIT - Ninja'd (sort of) by a ninja!

Exergy wrote:The shattering effect is what people exploit to defeat it. Reactive armor chucks fire, intercept the projectile and cause it to shatter before it every hits the tank. DU is used on 30mm and more also on a rapid firing weapon. The first hit or two doesnt do much damage but it dents the armor slightly as it shatters. The third and forth round hit that dent and start driving itself into the armor.

Its all about the angle, the DU is brittle so it fails axially. If it gets into the right situation where it is being opposed on all sides of the projectile trying to shear its outer circumfrance off it fails at a nice clean 45 degree angle because as i said, brittle materials do not fail in shear. This then nice pointed 45 degree angle then pushes further into the armor and fails again at the same 45 degree angle. driving itself further and further into the armor while reducing its energy very little.

20kj isnt a lot compared with dedicated AT weapons. It also isnt a lot compared with modern tank armor. I expect armor to match weapons development or else why would there be tanks in the year 40k.

I think sniper rifles against armor is fine right now, I dont think they should have a chance against a Land Raider, which is described in the fluff as having no vulnerable spots like a tank of today. If anything I think sniper rifles would be more likely to do glancing damage than penetrating rolls.

While true, the composite armor, such as Chobham armor, is only useful against a couple hits in the same area. After that, the stopping power of the armor lessens exponentially, as the hard ceramic outside breaks away. And yes, in nearly every single situation, a missile would be massively preferable to a rifle against a tank, though neither would do that much damage with a single hit. Sniper rifles have always been decent against light vehicles, and their rending ability would be as if they hit a vulnerable spot. I think the most sniper rifles should get against AV14 (barring space magic and super-duper tech) is a glance. While the best anti-material rifle (barring the Vindicare Assassin's super-duper tech) may be able to penetrate some of the armor, it shouldn't go all of the way through, perhaps hitting a critical system or severing a tread link.

Sniper rifles may be fine against armor (though only barely), but they are nearly useless against infantry. AP 6 and rending is not good, even against IG. When basic infantry get a save against an SM sized sniper rifle, something is wrong. Also, technically the extremely flat sides of the Lander Raider are a weakness, and why no tanks today have many flat sides, unlike the IoM vehicles, which ALL have perfectly flat sides.

Rough Rider Hunting Lance:
+2 I and S (same values as now, but works with furious charge bonuses) and a power weapon when they charge (every charge, not just the first).

I think this would make Rough Riders worth it.

Ok to the snipers rifle debate, wow just wow. You guys went into a whole new arena of wierdness debating that one. I play ork we don't have sniper rifles ( for obvious reasons, lol) but sniper rifles today are not used to pierce tanks anyway, They are used to kill in infantry, or high value targets. So for my 2¢ the AP should be 3. There is no way SM ARMOUR will be able to stop a well placed round if I shot them in the face, or the visor for that matter. Ok you can continue your epic discussion now.
Don't know who mentioned it but grot blasta- rending? What are you kidding me, its a piece of @?*# weapon that orks give to gretchin to make them feel special, no way in hell should they be rending. If anything they should be pistol and not assault 1.

@Ravenous - AM rifles actually are used to take out tanks in modern combat, especially against older tank design where the flaws and weaknesses are more pronounced. In 40K, we have tanks with exposed treads, power supplies, and no angling on the hulls. They are quite literally metal boxes with important bits exposed - something that can be destroyed with a powerful rifle in the right hands.

Yes, I do realize that AM rifles are in use today, and when they were first introduced could take out older tank with ease, today modern tanks are too well protected, they are infact used against unprotected and lightly armoured vehicles. I get it in 40k the models are exposed, and the side are boxed, and no angling of hulls and what have you. But do you think that in 40,000 years that the armour on said tanks is better than on modern tanks. So if AM rifles of today are shooting at tanks, ie abrams tank and equivalent of today and cannot penetrate them, what makes you think that they will be able to in the future. What you think the penetrating power of a SNiPER


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes, I do realize that AM rifles are in use today, usually by a 2-3 man team, and when they were first introduced could take out older tanks with ease, today modern tanks are too well protected, they are infact used against unprotected and lightly armoured vehicles. I get it in 40k the models are exposed, and the side are boxed, and no angling of hulls and what have you. But dont you think that in 40,000 years that the armour on said tanks is better than on modern tanks and older tanks. So if AM rifles of today are shooting at tanks, ie abrams tank and equivalent of today and cannot penetrate them, what makes you think that they will be able to in the future. What you think the penetrating power of a SNIPER RIFLES round will be more advanced than the protection on a tank, and freaking tank. Yes technology will advance to point where the round will be able to penetrate the armor of a tank but then the tank builders will just turn around and build a tank that can't be penetrated by that round, but that is the real world and we are playing a tabletop game, that is not real. If you want to make sniper rifle before then instead of allowing units to be upgraded with sniper rifles, make a whole new unit called a sniper team and allowing them to upgrade the rounds they fire at a cost. To be honest with you that doesn't sound bad at all. NEW space marine unit: scout sniper squad- 2-3per squad, one shooter, one spotter, 1 ammo man(opitional), basic sniper rules with AP3, with upgraded rounds like the sternguard rounds or whatever, SM players should know what I mean, that is just off the top of my head, sorry I ranted, if I was a douche in doing so I sincerely apologize. If anything snipers should be able to pick their own target out of any squad.
On to reworking another ork weapon- big choppas= +2 strength, rending? For 15pts, Or just make it a power weapon say 20pts. What you guys think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Soryy double post somewhat, but that scout sniper unit really doesn't sound that bad.

I agree that weapons teams would be awesome for certain weapons, yes.

In 40K, the land raider has 365mm steel equivalent armour. Total. With no angling.

Everything that goes into AV14 = 365mm of steel.

365mm of steel has been chewed through by human teeth using human jaws, so that we're clear here. It was an extraordinary feat by a man with some funky-ass teeth, but they still count as human, and his jaw was nothing special.

Actually, all discussion of AP, Anti-material and whatnot aside, just having snipers pick out their targets (a la Vindicare) would be enough to have me take them in a heartbeat.

Maybe it's as simple as that?

DoW

I had no idea AV 14 was so pitiful.

Anyway, many people overestimate Power Armor. It is not Terminator Armor, and you are not invulnerable, for reasions I mentioned above.

The thing is, even if Sniper Rifles aren't used for killing vehicles (and the VA set a poor example), then it still blows hard in its other, more main, capacity: killing individual, non-vehicle targets. Let's see... Hits on a 4+, wounds on a 4+, and has rending. Wow. So good. You have to rely on rending to get the job done.

My original sniper post still stands. Different levels of sniper rifles for different teams, and they can upgrade rifles. Main one for guard should be AP5, while the main one for SM should be AP4, then AP with Kraken rounds and AP2 with Vengeance rounds.

Or just keep the same rifle, just change the rounds being fired, like I came up with. But anyways, sniper rifles aren't used to kill vics, they are used to kill infantry. Ok I'm done I'm out, no longer talking a something I don't use in my army anyway.

ravenousork25 wrote:Or just keep the same rifle, just change the rounds being fired, like I came up with. But anyways, sniper rifles aren't used to kill vics, they are used to kill infantry. Ok I'm done I'm out, no longer talking a something I don't use in my army anyway.

or do both. Having IG and SMs use the same weapon is dumb. SM snipers should be bigger.

I like how we hijacked the thread to talk about sniper rifles and current gen armor.

first off rememebr flash gitz are BS2 to begin with and 25 points per model so ...

keep the options of mre dakka for +1 shot per model, and shootier for +1 str, get rid of blasta (-1 ap to roll but adds gets hot)

make the snazzgun base

36" str 5 AP D3 Assault 2

currently they are in such an add spot of random ap fo rinfantry but good str to wound... but not enough to really hurt even low armour vehicles , with d3 ap they can (with luck) do better when they glance or pen vehicles even though they will be str 5 or 6

What I meant was not the same rifle for both IG and SM but having the rifle be same as it is now just making it AP3 or if not making the rounds you can take be different. Sorry for the confusion, and I can second hijacking the thread with a sniper rifle and it penetration validity.
I can agree with the snazzgun at AP D3 too. That would be interesting and I might actually use them in a game.

I see what you're getting at. Sniper teams should definitely have access to different ammo types like Sternguard, though base AP should be 5 for ig and 4 for sm, if only to convey the difference in size and power. SMs could only take a few, and IG could take a bit more. I mean... What has an armor save of 6+? Kroot? Wyches? I think its funny that a rifle can penetrate, at most, a latex bodysuit.

How about a Flak Jacket that an Ork wears? Or hard carapace of a Hormagaunt? 6+ just represents bare basic protection. Not just latex.

Meltacannon: Range 24" str 10 ap1 2D6 armor pen on vehicles hit under center hole.

Right now the meltacannon is pretty mediocre because its barely better than a plasma cannon, which can be taken on an armored sentinel. The platform also competes in FoC with the Vendetta (for similar points too).

Jerjare wrote:Meltacannon: Range 24" str 10 ap1 2D6 armor pen on vehicles hit under center hole.

Right now the meltacannon is pretty mediocre because its barely better than a plasma cannon, which can be taken on an armored sentinel. The platform also competes in FoC with the Vendetta (for similar points too).

Meltacannon?

And that is just horribly unbalanced. Str 10 AP 1 2D6 Pen? Anything under that template is gone.

It is actually just a far shorter ranged version.of the.Titan weapon of the same name. That can still be Str 5 against vehicles and roll 1D6 AP.

Deadshot wrote:It is actually just a far shorter ranged version.of the.Titan weapon of the same name. That can still be Str 5 against vehicles and roll 1D6 AP.

Ah. I'd of thought it to be wise to ban fixing Apoc weapons.

Anyway.

I still think that it's broken - Str 10 AP 1 with 2D6 pen is horrendous.

I like the idea of always S9 Witchblades/Singing Spears. It makes them different from Dark Eldar poison weapons by removing the flat 2+ to wound and still makes them effective against high Toughness units and vehicles.

Giving them Instant Death is an interesting proposal and changes (to a degree) their target priority. As it stands, my biggest complaint with Witchblades is their lack of armor penetration, but making the weapon itself a power weapon would be overpowered. Perhaps add a Warlock power that upgrades the Witchblade to power weapon status for +10 points?

I like the idea of a Farseer power that empowers a Witchblade or Singing Spear to act as AP1 and ignore invulnerable saves for that turn. Requires a psychic test and costs say, +20 points?

Deadshot wrote:How about a Flak Jacket that an Ork wears? Or hard carapace of a Hormagaunt? 6+ just represents bare basic protection. Not just latex.

Regardless of what an armor save of 6+ represents, it's still sad that a sniper rifle can only penetrate that.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Jerjare wrote:Meltacannon: Range 24" str 10 ap1 2D6 armor pen on vehicles hit under center hole.

Right now the meltacannon is pretty mediocre because its barely better than a plasma cannon, which can be taken on an armored sentinel. The platform also competes in FoC with the Vendetta (for similar points too).

Meltacannon?

And that is just horribly unbalanced. Str 10 AP 1 2D6 Pen? Anything under that template is gone.

Not really, Medusa cannon can take bastion breacher shells with the same stat line and a 48" range.

140 points and inaccurate bombing from IG. I'd take the meltacannon over that any day... you put it on a Leman Russ Demolisher and just watch the other army run away in horror.

Be another story if you could somehow have mortar rounds be that powerful considering the size of the marker. I'd love to put my mortars to use.

Gavin Thorne wrote:I like the idea of always S9 Witchblades/Singing Spears. It makes them different from Dark Eldar poison weapons by removing the flat 2+ to wound and still makes them effective against high Toughness units and vehicles.

Giving them Instant Death is an interesting proposal and changes (to a degree) their target priority. As it stands, my biggest complaint with Witchblades is their lack of armor penetration, but making the weapon itself a power weapon would be overpowered. Perhaps add a Warlock power that upgrades the Witchblade to power weapon status for +10 points?

I like the idea of a Farseer power that empowers a Witchblade or Singing Spear to act as AP1 and ignore invulnerable saves for that turn. Requires a psychic test and costs say, +20 points?

It'd be cool to have different Witchblades, like different NFWs. Like Singing Spears, Wraithhammers and Glaives...

Combine it with your idea too.

DemetriDominov wrote:140 points and inaccurate bombing from IG. I'd take the meltacannon over that any day... you put it on a Leman Russ Demolisher and just watch the other army run away in horror.

You can't get meltacannons on anything other than Devil Dogs though, so that wouldn't matter...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DemetriDominov wrote:140 points and inaccurate bombing from IG. I'd take the meltacannon over that any day... you put it on a Leman Russ Demolisher and just watch the other army run away in horror.

You can't get meltacannons on anything other than Devil Dogs though, so that wouldn't matter...

Still, Str 10 AP 1 2D6 pen is an awful idea.

No. Just no.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Still, Str 10 AP 1 2D6 pen is an awful idea.

No. Just no.

Hmmmm... Bastion Breacher Shells? They exist (and they even Blast, just to add to the insult!)!

AtoMaki wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Still, Str 10 AP 1 2D6 pen is an awful idea.

No. Just no.

Hmmmm... Bastion Breacher Shells? They exist (and they even Blast, just to add to the insult!)!

On a poorly armoured vehicle that could be busted by a Bolt Pistol? Reasonable.

On a Bane Wolf? NO.

Also, the phrase "Only slightly better than a Plasma Cannon" is a ridiculous understatement.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Still, Str 10 AP 1 2D6 pen is an awful idea.

No. Just no.

Hmmmm... Bastion Breacher Shells? They exist (and they even Blast, just to add to the insult!)!

On a poorly armoured vehicle that could be busted by a Bolt Pistol? Reasonable.

On a Bane Wolf? NO.

Also, the phrase "Only slightly better than a Plasma Cannon" is a ridiculous understatement.

The Medusa has the same front armour as the Devil Dog and has 24" longer range.

Rippa gun: same shooting profile, but rends in assault and re rolls wounds.

thought of another one

bright lance

str 8 ap 2 heavy 1 lance

lance property changed to counts as ap1 for armor value below 13

origional thought was str 9 like a lascannon but wanted somethign different and to justify cost

SHOT GUNS
strength is not enough i am unimpressed

strength 4 ap 6 assault 2
rending to show how powerful it is

warrior lord wrote:SHOT GUNS
strength is not enough i am unimpressed

strength 4 ap 6 assault 2
rending to show how powerful it is

What kind of magical ammunition is that loaded with?

DarknessEternal wrote:

warrior lord wrote:SHOT GUNS
strength is not enough i am unimpressed

strength 4 ap 6 assault 2
rending to show how powerful it is

What kind of magical ammunition is that loaded with?

Yeah, the strength being the same as an armour piercing explosive micro rocket? I think not.

htj wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

warrior lord wrote:SHOT GUNS
strength is not enough i am unimpressed

strength 4 ap 6 assault 2
rending to show how powerful it is

What kind of magical ammunition is that loaded with?

Yeah, the strength being the same as an armour piercing explosive micro rocket? I think not.

Also, why does it get the same rate of fire as a freaking shoota?

Bonesword: Gets an extra d3 roll of armor penetration.

Reasoning: Warriors with toxin sacs and Bonesword/lashwhip are incredibly good in close combat, but their ineffectiveness against vehicles and insta-death to t8 weapons make it they don't see play. Other troops get access to melta and krak missles, but Tyranids have to hope for rends with Genestealers.

Giving boneswords that extra d3 means they can damage Dreads, and more reliably do something to transports. It also means the Hive Tyrant will get something out of his bone sword. Since he's a MC, the "power weapon" effect is wasted on him. Giving him an extra d3 makes him all the more dangerous, and with his point cost, he should be.

Chainswords - RENDING

Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon - AP3

Venom Cannon - No penalty to vehicle damage chart.

I don't think any would require a points change. Chainswords MAYBE add a point or two.

Meltacannon could use a boost because its on a 120 point platform that competes for cost and FoC with a Vendetta, which gets 3 TL str9 ap2 shots.

Giving the Melta rule to a blast weapon gets a little confusing because they are not clear on whether to account for scatter when determining if its in half distance. I think it would be simpler if the Meltacannon simply did the 'melta' effect in its entire range spectrum, with a bit of a damage boost because remember the CENTER of the blast marker has to hit the vehicle for it to do full damage, otherwise it does half.

At str10 ap1 2D6 armor pen, if it scatters a bit you can still hit a vehicle with str5 ap1 2D6. As it is now if you dont hit the vehicle dead-on, particularly in its effective 'melta' range (12") you're not doing much. As for the difference between str8 and str10, it really only helps vs vehicles; vs nearly everything else there really isnt any benefit barring hitting a wrathlord or something.

Mattlov wrote:Chainswords - RENDING

Tyrannofex Rupture Cannon - AP3

Venom Cannon - No penalty to vehicle damage chart.

I don't think any would require a points change. Chainswords MAYBE add a point or two.

Make it AP2, a Terminator should not have a better chance of ignoring a rupture cannon than a land raider. Impaler cannons should be AP3 and Biocannons AP1.

Jerjare wrote:At str10 ap1 2D6 armor pen, if it scatters a bit you can still hit a vehicle with str5 ap1 2D6. As it is now if you dont hit the vehicle dead-on, particularly in its effective 'melta' range (12") you're not doing much. As for the difference between str8 and str10, it really only helps vs vehicles; vs nearly everything else there really isnt any benefit barring hitting a wrathlord or something.

Again, Str 10 AP 1. You have a 1 in 3 chance of hitting, and then if you 3 or less, you're still hitting. I hate it when people say it's only roughly better than a Plasma Cannon.

Mattlov wrote:
I don't think any would require a points change. Chainswords MAYBE add a point or two.

from other units in the game, Rending is a 4 point upgrade on marine like models.

Exergy wrote:

Mattlov wrote:
I don't think any would require a points change. Chainswords MAYBE add a point or two.

from other units in the game, Rending is a 4 point upgrade on marine like models.

Rending is frequently overpriced as the developers seem to think that it's a magic ointment to improve otherwise mediocre weapons. Generally speaking, Rending is only worthwhile if you're throwing out a lot of attacks. So on a sergeant? Yeah probably only one point. On a squad of vanguard veterans? Probably a bit more.

Kain wrote:

Exergy wrote:

Mattlov wrote:
I don't think any would require a points change. Chainswords MAYBE add a point or two.

from other units in the game, Rending is a 4 point upgrade on marine like models.

Rending is frequently overpriced as the developers seem to think that it's a magic ointment to improve otherwise mediocre weapons. Generally speaking, Rending is only worthwhile if you're throwing out a lot of attacks. So on a sergeant? Yeah probably only one point. On a squad of vanguard veterans? Probably a bit more.

Damn, I have to bring this up again.

A Chainsword mainly kills through sundering power, i.e., cutting off limbs in a hail of blood, whilst a Combat Blade is a weapon that can be plunged deep into an opponent's abdomen in one blow. A strong blow can get through materials of varying thickness, and a Chainsaw can rip through it. I'd say it's currently pretty balanced.