Situattion: Genestealer with Broodlord charge Grey Knight HQ (not sure which) in the open. Broodlord is in B2B with HQ and tries to Hypnotic Gaze, However the Grey knight player insist that the Cleansing Flames goes first despite the fact that their activation times have the exact wording. In such case would the Unit with the higher Initiative go first?

Can anyone verify this?

They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I'm not sure why it matters. Do these rules even interact?

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I think what he is asking is: Does Hypnotic Gaze stop Cleansing Flame? Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, and Hypnotic Gaze stops the model from making CC attacks.

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I think what he is asking is: Does Hypnotic Gaze stop Cleansing Flame? Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, and Hypnotic Gaze stops the model from making CC attacks.

It's a CC attack that is initiated with a Psychic test. HG does not stop Psychic tests. Therefore HG does not stop CF.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I think what he is asking is: Does Hypnotic Gaze stop Cleansing Flame? Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, and Hypnotic Gaze stops the model from making CC attacks.

It's a CC attack that is initiated with a Psychic test. HG does not stop Psychic tests. Therefore HG does not stop CF.

Who cares how it is initiatied? It is a close combat attack regardless. It doesn't matter where it came from. Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack coming from the model, is it not? You can make the psychic test all you want. It is the result of the psychic test that is negated.

That's like saying that armour doesn't protect from psychic tests, it protects from damage, so it cannot protect you from Eldritch Storm. We know that is not the case. The psychic test isn't what matters here.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I think what he is asking is: Does Hypnotic Gaze stop Cleansing Flame? Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, and Hypnotic Gaze stops the model from making CC attacks.

It's a CC attack that is initiated with a Psychic test. HG does not stop Psychic tests. Therefore HG does not stop CF.

Who cares how it is initiatied? It is a close combat attack regardless. It doesn't matter where it came from. Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack coming from the model, is it not? You can make the psychic test all you want. It is the result of the psychic test that is negated.

HG says "that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat". Note the difference between that and stopping all close combat attacks

That makes sense but is it not 2 different parts?

1. Psychic test to make sure it can activate.
2. The Actually swings from Cleansing Flame

Since the Swings are CC I was wondering if The gaze would stop it.

Riozaki wrote:That makes sense but is it not 2 different parts?

1. Psychic test to make sure it can activate.
2. The Actually swings from Cleansing Flame

Since the Swings are CC I was wondering if The gaze would stop it.

They are not "in the ensuing close combat". They happen before attacks are made, by definition (since you resolve the power immediately, and the power must be case before attacks are made).

rigeld2 wrote:
HG says "that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat". Note the difference between that and stopping all close combat attacks

Yes, I see the difference. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around "not being able to attack in the ensuing close combat" and then proceeding to make "close combat attacks".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
They are not "in the ensuing close combat".

I would argue that the entirety of that assault is the "ensuing close combat." To say that it is not is to start to create mini-phases within the actual assault phase, which we both know aren't there. To swing your attacks "before all other attacks are made" is still a part of the "ensuing close combat", just before the Initiative Step. Just because it happens before the other swings doesn't make it somehow not apart of the close combat.

If that were true, then Cleansing Flame wouldn't count towards combat resolution.

puma713 wrote:Just because it happens before the other swings doesn't make it somehow not apart of the close combat.

Except it does - because of the trigger it can only ever mean that it happens before any attacks.

If that were true, then Cleansing Flame wouldn't count towards combat resolution.

Not true. There's nothing that limits wounds caused to only those in the initiative step - Perils, for example, would be counted into the combat resolution.

edit:

To say that it is not is to start to create mini-phases within the actual assault phase, which we both know aren't there.

Like there's no "beginning of the movement phase" or "end of the movement phase" or "before movement"?

Hypnotic gaze also happens before combat, their activation is exact wording in their codex. So why does Flame still get priority, hypnotic gaze is supposed to stop them from attack does it not? I don't understand why it still goes off if it happens exactly at the same time Gaze does. :(

Cleansing Flame does not get priority, but neither does Hypnotic Gaze.

They happen at exactly the same time, so they both work.

To let Hypnotic Gaze stop the model from using Cleansing Flame is to say that 2 things that happen at the exact same time do not happen at the exact same time.

Riozaki wrote:Hypnotic gaze also happens before combat, their activation is exact wording in their codex. So why does Flame still get priority, hypnotic gaze is supposed to stop them from attack does it not? I don't understand why it still goes off if it happens exactly at the same time Gaze does. :(

It's not getting priority - they go off at the same time.
Even if they didn't - CF goes off before the "ensuing close combat" which is where HG denies attacks.
All that on top of the fact that HG doesn't deny the use of a psychic power.

HG would stop Crowe from using his normal attacks as well as his last stand strike. However Cleasing Flame, like HG both take place before any blows are struck in the combat. Therefore they take place before the combat that HG would affect. The main reason i see them ammending Cleasing Flame to a CC attack is so that units like witches would still get there inv in cc against it.

I am not saying that Gaze denies psychic power, but I wanted to know why it still did dmg.

Let me use Doom of Malantai for instance. If Doom uses cataclym and is blocked by a psychic hood. Doom still has to take wounds despite he didnt get to shoot. Shouldn't this work the same way?

Riozaki wrote:I am not saying that Gaze denies psychic power, but I wanted to know why it still did dmg.

Let me use Doom of Malantai for instance. If Doom uses cataclym and is blocked by a psychic hood. Doom still has to take wounds despite he didnt get to shoot. Shouldn't this work the same way?

Except he wouldn't take the wounds. Taking the wounds is a function of the power, and a hood cancels the power.

Riozaki wrote:I am not saying that Gaze denies psychic power, but I wanted to know why it still did dmg.

Let me use Doom of Malantai for instance. If Doom uses cataclym and is blocked by a psychic hood. Doom still has to take wounds despite he didnt get to shoot. Shouldn't this work the same way?

That is a different situation and Rig has it correct.

In: Hypnotic Gaze vs. Cleansing Flame you resolve both powers that happen simultaneously, then move on to the I10 step of the combat.

a similar situation is: if we both have models striking at Initiative 4, and I roll my dice first and kill 5 guys, your 5 guys still get to strike back because all of those attacks at Initiative 4 happen Simultaneously.

From what I can read they go at the same time, after assault moves but before blows. As for the powers themselves there is a difference that needs to be made. The Broodlord is stated as it being him that casts the power. For Grey Knight units it is the whole squad that effectively takes the test and if they peril one model (usually the justicar if he is alive) is removed. So how can a phychic move that stops a model fighting in the following assault phase stop a psychic power that is cast from the squad (not an individual model) from activating before the combat takes place even if said power is classed as a CC move? Now if it was specifically the justicar only who was a psyker and it was him casting the power alone then maybe it could cause some problems. But it isn't, its a squad using the power and the move doesn't originate from any specific model either, the squad casts it on another squad who then takes wounds according to a dice roll. No specific model is striking so no specific model can be picked out and said to be using the power.

LynxSarnage wrote:From what I can read they go at the same time, after assault moves but before blows. As for the powers themselves there is a difference that needs to be made. The Broodlord is stated as it being him that casts the power. For Grey Knight units it is the whole squad that effectively takes the test and if they peril one model (usually the justicar if he is alive) is removed. So how can a phychic move that stops a model fighting in the following assault phase stop a psychic power that is cast from the squad (not an individual model) from activating before the combat takes place even if said power is classed as a CC move? Now if it was specifically the justicar only who was a psyker and it was him casting the power alone then maybe it could cause some problems. But it isn't, its a squad using the power and the move doesn't originate from any specific model either, the squad casts it on another squad who then takes wounds according to a dice roll. No specific model is striking so no specific model can be picked out and said to be using the power.

You should read the example in the thread.

Well, the FAQ screws this all up.

Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

So, if you're the Tyranid player, be prepared to shout "Hypnotic Gaze" once you finish moving your last model. Feel free to fake out your opponent and get them to shout "Cleansing Flame" at the wrong time.

If they do shout "Cleansing Flame" first, say you're not done assaulting, and declare another assault (even if it's clearly well too far to actually succeed).

Lynx but i was only 1 model. I believe it was Crowe? He was completely alone.

@ Lynx: He was not talking about a unit of purifiers.

He was talking about Crowe "Grey Knight HQ"and the "Broodlord is in B2B with HQ and tries to Hypnotic Gaze"

Grakmar wrote:Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

No, it can not, as the both happen Simultaneously.

Grakmar wrote:Well, the FAQ screws this all up.

Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

Not true.

DeathReaper wrote:@ Lynx: He was not talking about a unit of purifiers.

He was talking about Crowe "Grey Knight HQ"and the "Broodlord is in B2B with HQ and tries to Hypnotic Gaze"

Grakmar wrote:Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

No, it can not, as the both happen Simultaneously.

Why do they happen simultaneously? We have nothing else in the game, apart from CCA in the same initiative step, that happens simultaneously.

rigeld2 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Well, the FAQ screws this all up.

Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

Not true.

What part isn't true? Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack (thanks to the FAQ). Hypnotic Gaze prevents close combat attacks. So, Gaze prevents Flame.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:Just because it happens before the other swings doesn't make it somehow not apart of the close combat.

Except it does - because of the trigger it can only ever mean that it happens before any attacks.

Okay? "the attacks" =/= "the ensuing close combat". In my mind, the "ensuing close combat" would encompass anything that has to do with the following combat. But, to see if I understand you - all that is covered by "ensuing close combat" is initiative-step-attacks? That is a very specific definition for a very broad term. Where are the attacks happening, then, if before the close combat? In which part of the assault phase?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:If that were true, then Cleansing Flame wouldn't count towards combat resolution.

Not true. There's nothing that limits wounds caused to only those in the initiative step - Perils, for example, would be counted into the combat resolution.

Because, once again, when you rolled the Perils, you were a part of the "close combat".

That is the point you're missing.

Grakmar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:@ Lynx: He was not talking about a unit of purifiers.

He was talking about Crowe "Grey Knight HQ"and the "Broodlord is in B2B with HQ and tries to Hypnotic Gaze"

Grakmar wrote:Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

No, it can not, as the both happen Simultaneously.

Why do they happen simultaneously? We have nothing else in the game, apart from CCA in the same initiative step, that happens simultaneously.

Firing from a single unit.

They have the same triggering requirement. Therefore they must go off at the same time, since neither is required to go off before the other.

rigeld2 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Well, the FAQ screws this all up.

Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

Not true.

What part isn't true? Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack (thanks to the FAQ). Hypnotic Gaze prevents close combat attacks. So, Gaze prevents Flame.

Hypnotic Gaze does not prevent close combat attacks.
I've quoted the rule already in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:Okay? "the attacks" =/= "the ensuing close combat". In my mind, the "ensuing close combat" would encompass anything that has to do with the following combat. But, to see if I understand you - all that is covered by "ensuing close combat" is initiative-step-attacks? That is a very specific definition for a very broad term. Where are the attacks happening, then, if before the close combat? In which part of the assault phase?

I'll quote - "after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck" is when CF goes off. iow - before initiative 10.
This wording is similar to when HG happens - before attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:They have the same triggering requirement. Therefore they must go off at the same time, since neither is required to go off before the other.

So, I have Eldrad on the field. He casts Doom on your unit, but gets Perils. He then casts Fortune on himself and succeeds.

Since both of those trigger "at the start of the turn", does that mean he gets a re-roll on that Perils because of Fortune, as those are cast "simultaneously"?

Grakmar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:They have the same triggering requirement. Therefore they must go off at the same time, since neither is required to go off before the other.

So, I have Eldrad on the field. He casts Doom on your unit, but gets Perils. He then casts Fortune on himself and succeeds.

Since both of those trigger "at the start of the turn", does that mean he gets a re-roll on that Perils because of Fortune, as those are cast "simultaneously"?

No - because they're simultaneous they don't affect each other... which is what simultaneous means.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:Okay? "the attacks" =/= "the ensuing close combat". In my mind, the "ensuing close combat" would encompass anything that has to do with the following combat. But, to see if I understand you - all that is covered by "ensuing close combat" is initiative-step-attacks? That is a very specific definition for a very broad term. Where are the attacks happening, then, if before the close combat? In which part of the assault phase?

I'll quote - "after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck" is when CF goes off. iow - before initiative 10.
This wording is similar to when HG happens - before attacks.

Again. . .okay? What I want to know is where you're getting that "initiative-step-attacks" are all that count as a part of the "close combat".

Everything that can affect the close combat is a part of the close combat. That is what Combat Resolution represents: what happened during the close combat. "The close combat" is not a restrictive term. If it was, it would be defined somewhere. It is a broad term covering anything that is about to happen (ensuing) in regards to assault (close combat).

Edit: For my money, Hypnotic Gaze happens even before CF. The reasoning behind this, is Hypnotic Gaze is affecting the entire (close combat) that is about to happen. CF is apart of the (close combat), in fact, it is the very next step, right before Initiative 10. Hypnotic Gaze is affecting the umbrella of "close combat", which Cleansing Flame is under.

You asked:

puma713 wrote:Where are the attacks happening, then, if before the close combat? In which part of the assault phase?

I answered:

rigeld2 wrote:I'll quote - "after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck" is when CF goes off. iow - before initiative 10.

Everything that can affect the close combat is a part of the close combat. That is what Combat Resolution represents: what happened during the close combat. "The close combat" is not a restrictive term. If it was, it would be defined somewhere. It is a broad term covering anything that is about to happen (ensuing) in regards to assault (close combat).

Page 34 - Fighting a Close Combat is where it starts describing how to handle close combats. Note that this is after assault moves have been made, and note that it only describes the initiative steps.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 34 - Fighting a Close Combat is where it starts describing how to handle close combats. Note that this is after assault moves have been made, and note that it only describes the initiative steps.

Okay. So we both know that Gaze and Flame aren't a part of the "assault moves". So, if they're not a part of the assault moves, what must they be a part of?

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 34 - Fighting a Close Combat is where it starts describing how to handle close combats. Note that this is after assault moves have been made, and note that it only describes the initiative steps.

Okay. So we both know that Gaze and Flame aren't a part of the "assault moves". So, if they're not a part of the assault moves, what must they be a part of?

... they're - wait for it

wait for it...

before any blows. Which means - wait for it...
Before the close combat "phase".

Or are you going to argue that there is no "before movement", "beginning of the movement phase", etc.?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 34 - Fighting a Close Combat is where it starts describing how to handle close combats. Note that this is after assault moves have been made, and note that it only describes the initiative steps.

Okay. So we both know that Gaze and Flame aren't a part of the "assault moves". So, if they're not a part of the assault moves, what must they be a part of?

... they're - wait for it

wait for it...

before any blows. Which means - wait for it...
Before the close combat "phase".

So, there is an assumed phase between the assault moves and the close combat? Could you shoot me a page number for that one?

rigeld2 wrote:Or are you going to argue that there is no "before movement", "beginning of the movement phase", etc.?

No, I won't argue that, if you can give me the page number that describes this "time".

puma713 wrote:So, there is an assumed phase between the assault moves and the close combat? Could you shoot me a page number for that one?

Page 31 GK codex, page 62 Tyranid codex.

puma713 wrote:No, I won't argue that, if you can give me the page number that describes this "time".

Reserves, GoI, dozens of psychic powers...

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:So, there is an assumed phase between the assault moves and the close combat? Could you shoot me a page number for that one?

Page 31 GK codex, page 62 Tyranid codex.

puma713 wrote:No, I won't argue that, if you can give me the page number that describes this "time".

Reserves, GoI, dozens of psychic powers...

No, no, no. In the rulebook. Where the rules that govern the game are. Where the rules for all the other phases are. You see, page 31 of the GK codex doesn't tell me anything about this mystery phase. It doesn't say when it ends, when it begins, how long it is, who can do what, or anything! Must not be outlining the rules for a separate phase that the rulebook just forgot to mention. Page 62 of the Tyranid codex doesn't tell me what to do next - what phase is next? Do I get my 'shooting phase' rules from 'dozens of psychic powers'? Where in the Gate of Infinity rules does it tell me how to conduct assault?

So, once again, if you can give me the page number in the rulebook, please, that describes all these extra phases outside of the phases, so we can all follow the rulebook you're reading?

Or, could it be that none of this is true, and that you simply follow the phases you're given, understanding that "before the start of the Librarian's movement phase" is actually before you move the Librarian or anything else? That "before blows are struck" are still a part of the close combat, and not in some limbo phase that is not explained anywhere?

puma713 wrote:That "before blows are struck" are still a part of the close combat, and not in some limbo phase that is not explained anywhere?

It happens in the assault phase, after moves are complete, before any blows are struck.
I used the word phase in quotes to show it wasn't a phase, and I never - ever - implied that it was.
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

rigeld2 wrote:
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

Okay, so during Assault Moves, then.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

Okay, so during Assault Moves, then.

...

So GoI happens... when? During the Movement phase? No. During the Assault phase? No.

When do you roll for reserves?

CF says it goes off "before blows have been struck" so you are saying it goes off after it is supposed to go off? So I can cast Fortune in the shooting phase right?

Sigmatron wrote:CF says it goes off "before blows have been struck" so you are saying it goes off after it is supposed to go off? So I can cast Fortune in the shooting phase right?

Who is that directed to?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

Okay, so during Assault Moves, then.

...

So GoI happens... when? During the Movement phase? No. During the Assault phase? No.

When do you roll for reserves?

So, it is more reasonable for you to assume there are mystery phases not outlined in the rulebook than the rules are a part of the phases you're presented? For instance, knowing that "before the Librarian's movement phase" could very well be "before the librarian has moved."

We're not going to agree. In this regard, Riozaki, I would say speak to your TO, or dice it off with your opponent. I doubt it will get FAQed before 6th Ed.

Puma

Sigmatron wrote:CF says it goes off "before blows have been struck" so you are saying it goes off after it is supposed to go off?

??

It goes off "before blows are struck". My only argument is that "before blows are struck" are still very much a part of "the close combat". rigeld2 is saying that they are not a part of the "close combat", even though they are "close combat attacks" and count towards "combat resolution".

is there anything else in the game that counts as "close combat attacks" that are not a part of close combat and count toward combat resolution?

Sigmatron wrote:So I can cast Fortune in the shooting phase right?

Not sure what this has to do with anything.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Close Combat is a defined step. CF and HG happen before that step.

Okay, so during Assault Moves, then.

...

So GoI happens... when? During the Movement phase? No. During the Assault phase? No.

When do you roll for reserves?

So, it is more reasonable for you to assume there are mystery phases not outlined in the rulebook than the rules are a part of the phases you're presented?

No, absolutely not - and I haven't presented the idea that there are. I apologize for using GoI as an example - it's a bad one.
Bolster Defense - before the game begins
Sanctuary - start of the enemy Assault phase

For instance, knowing that "before the Librarian's movement phase" could very well be "before the librarian has moved."

And Reserves? "before moving any unit" but I don't see anything in the rules saying there's a time before you move units...
The powers give permission to use them at a specific point in time.

We're not going to agree. In this regard, Riozaki, I would say speak to your TO, or dice it off with your opponent. I doubt it will get FAQed before 6th Ed.

I agree - speak to a TO, and I'm sure it won't get FAQed.

HG Does stop Cleansing flame, I think. After reading several times it says "after assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made." I do not agree that it stops it because it is a "close combat attack" but because it stops ANY attacks. Close combat or otherwise. It's all in the wording.

Except that CF is a Psychic power.

Also CF is used after assault moves have been made but before blows are struck.

so despite CF being FAQ'd to being a CC attack, it is used before attacks are made, which is when Hypnotic Gaze is used, they happen at the same time.

So why do people keep mentioning the psychic power l? We have already established that has no effect on this discussion.
So how does gaze that covers any attack not cover that attack?

A) it covers any attack in the ensuing close combat. CF happens before the ensuing close combat.
B) no one has established that it being a psychic power doesn't matter - it does. It's not an attack, the result is a bunch of CC attacks.
C) HG and CF happen simultaneously. They can't affect each other.
D) I just figured I needed a D on this list. Feel free to ignore it.

DeathReaper wrote:
so despite CF being FAQ'd to being a CC attack, it is used before attacks are made, which is when Hypnotic Gaze is used, they happen at the same time.

Actually, Hypnotic Gaze says it is used in the assault phase, before any attacks are made. That would include any attacks going before I10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:A) it covers any attack in the ensuing close combat. CF happens before the ensuing close combat.

In your opinion. That is not backed up by the rules because you have no definition of what "ensuing close combat" means. Since there is no rule outlining this "sub-phase" you keep referring to, it is only logical that we assume there is none and CF happens during "the close combat".

rigeld2 wrote:
B) no one has established that it being a psychic power doesn't matter - it does. It's not an attack, the result is a bunch of CC attacks.

Why? You cast it, and then when you cast it, close combat attacks are made. Hypnotic Gaze doesn't care where the attacks are coming from, simply that there are attacks being made.

rigeld2 wrote:C) HG and CF happen simultaneously. They can't affect each other.

Incorrect. Hypnotic Gaze states that it is used before any attacks are made. This stands to reason that it must be used before the attacks made by Cleansing Flame, otherwise, you're not following the rules of Hypnotic Gaze.

Phase:

Move Assaulting Units
Defenders React
Close Combat
---Hypnotic Gaze (before any attacks are made)
---Cleansing Flame (attacks made before blows are struck)
---I10
---I9
. . .
Determine Assault Results
Check Morale

Doing it simultaneously breaks the rules of Hypnotic Gaze. Doing Hypnotic Gaze first doesn't break the rules of either one.

Casting a Psychic power is not a CC attack.

your point is moot.

they happen at the same time.

DeathReaper wrote:Casting a Psychic power is not a CC attack.

Sure, but the result of the psychic power is cc attacks. Hypnotic Gaze must go off before those attacks do, otherwise you're breaking the rules.

Edit: Also, it doesn't matter if it is a CC attack or not - Hypnotic Gaze goes off before any attacks in the assault phase.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic power that is a close combat attack. The FAQ made this so.

The result of the Psychic power has no bearing on it.

Hypnotic Gaze is used before any attacks are made, Cleansing Flame is casting a Psychic power. Both of which are not disallowed by HG.

This situation proves this: two units with CF are in battle with each other. which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

They both would have to be able to use it even though CF says it is used before any blows have been struck, just like Hypnotic gaze...

The Psychic power and Hypnotic Gaze both are used at the same time. apply the effects and move on to the assault phase.

DeathReaper wrote:The result of the Psychic power has no bearing on it.

Hypnotic Gaze is used before any attacks are made, Cleansing Flame is casting a Psychic power. Both of which are not disallowed by HG.

This situation proves this: two units with CF are in battle with each other. which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

They both would have to be able to use it even though CF says it is used before any blows have been struck, just like Hypnotic gaze...

I disagree. If you use Hypnotic Gaze at the same time as Cleansing Flame, then Hypnotic Gaze has not been used before any attacks are made. It was used at the same time as other attacks were made. Simultaneous =/= before.

You keep saying that Cleansing Flame is merely "casting a psychic power". That is incorrect. It is a psychic power that is a close combat attack. Just like Paroxysm is a shooting attack. Just like Mind War is a shooting attack. They are not mutually exclusive.

And Cleansing Flame versus Cleansing Flame has no bearing. The two powers are not worded the same. One says before blows are struck (Hypnotic Gaze is not a "blow being struck), the other says before any attacks are made (Cleansing Flame is an attack).



So, what you're saying is that Cleansing Flame is not an attack? Even though the FAQ says it is?

The FAQ can only be ruling on shooting vs CC for the purposes of cover saves - as the power is not a PSA it cannot be a shooting attack.
Edit: meaning using the power is not an attack - resolving the power causes wounds considered to be from CC attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:The FAQ can only be ruling on shooting vs CC for the purposes of cover saves - as the power is not a PSA it cannot be a shooting attack.
Edit: meaning using the power is not an attack - resolving the power causes wounds considered to be from CC attacks.

Yeah, we can put all sorts of RAI meaning into it. The simple fact is that it says that it is a close combat attack. If it is only ruling for certain reasons, then they needed to have added something about cover saves or what have you. They simply said that it is a close combat attack. No caveats, no exceptions.

The question was very simple: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close combat attack?

No matter how that is answered, it is an attack of some sort, which Hypnotic Gaze still negates.

OK so we now have Schrödinger's Cleansing Flame. A "close combat attack" used before close combat attacks but (supposedly) hs to happen at the same time as close combat attacks?

That ones a stretch Happy.

So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

DeathReaper wrote:So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

What does this have to do with Hypnotic Gaze versus Cleansing Flame? You're avoiding the issue. Hypnotic Gaze and Cleansing Flame don't have the same wording, so it does us no good to compare Cleansing Flame vs. Cleansing Flame. Cleansing Flame is an attack, it was defined as such in the Grey Knights FAQ. That is plain and simple.

If it is an attack, then Hypnotic Gaze goes off before it. It doesn't even matter what kind of attack.

Personally, I see Puma713's point as having a firmer and more logical base to stand on in this case.

I play neither Tyranids or Grey Knights, so I've no reason to be biased here.

From what I have read, Hypnotic Gaze would take precedence here by virtue of being used before any attacks are made without regards to initiative.

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

What does this have to do Hypnotic Gaze versus Cleansing Flame? You're avoiding the issue. Hypnotic Gaze and Cleansing Flame don't have the same wording, so it does us no good to compare Cleansing Flame vs. Cleansing Flame. Cleansing Flame is an attack, it was defined as such in the Grey Knights FAQ. That is plain and simple.

If it is an attack, then Hypnotic Gaze goes off before it. It doesn't even matter what kind of attack.

This has everything to do with it. Please answer the question.

They have the same wording They both use "after (Any) assault moves", except CF uses the wording "before any blows are struck" and HG uses the wording "before any attacks are made."

This wording means the same thing. any blows are struck = any attacks are made

Blows = attacks, unless you think they mean something different, if you do then I see the issue.

So they are both used after assault moves, but before any attacks are made.

If you say that HG goes off before CF, then how do you handle CF Vs. CF?

CF is used after assault moves, but before any attacks are made.

So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:So Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame?

Why?

What does this have to do Hypnotic Gaze versus Cleansing Flame? You're avoiding the issue. Hypnotic Gaze and Cleansing Flame don't have the same wording, so it does us no good to compare Cleansing Flame vs. Cleansing Flame. Cleansing Flame is an attack, it was defined as such in the Grey Knights FAQ. That is plain and simple.

If it is an attack, then Hypnotic Gaze goes off before it. It doesn't even matter what kind of attack.

This has everything to do with it. Please answer the question.

They have the same wording They both use "after (Any) assault moves", except CF uses the wording "before any blows are struck" and HG uses the wording "before any attacks are made."

Okay. Is Hypnotic Gaze a "blow being struck"? No, it is not.

Is Cleansing Flame an attack being made? Yes it is.

See the difference? If Hypnotic Gaze were an attack, then you'd have a point - the two would work almost identically. That is why you're hung up on Cleansing Flame vs. Cleansing Flame. That is two attacks going off at once. That is not the case here. Hypnotic Gaze is a power that is used before any attacks are made. Cleansing Flame is an attack. Therefore, Hypnotic Gaze must be used before it. Cleansing Flame's wording has no bearing on Hypnotic Gaze, since it is not a "blow being struck" anyway.

I won't address the rest, since it is irrelevant.

You're trying to equate two things identically, when they are quite simply not identical.

So you are not going to answer the question?

Cleansing flame is not an attack being made, it is a Psychic power being cast.

See the difference?

How would you handle this situation:

Unit A and Unit B with Cleansing Flame are in battle with each other, which one gets to cast Cleansing flame? (Or do they both get to cast it).

Why?

If you say that HG goes off before CF, then how do you handle CF Vs. CF?

DeathReaper wrote:So you are not going to answer the question?

Cleansing flame is not an attack being made, it is a Psychic power being cast.

I must assume that you're trolling now. Or just playing Devil's Advocate. It is clearly an attack. The FAQ even says it is. Why do you insist on assuming that it cannot be a psychic power -and- an attack? It is both at the same time. But, to help you out:




I am refusing to answer your CF vs. CF because it has no bearing whatsoever on the argument.


One is conditional that it is before ANY ATTACK. The other is conditional that it is before blows are struck.

This makes it really easy. If Cleansing Flame goes off at the same time or before Hypnotic Gaze, then you've already broken Hypnotic Gaze's condition. If Hypnotic Gaze goes before Cleansing Flame, no conditions are broken.

Once again: Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack. You keep likening it to Cleansing Flame, which is an attack.

Really, you have no leg to stand on here, which is why I assume I'm getting trolled.

Cleansing Flame has to go off before blows are struck (attacks made). By your interpretation, you cannot Cleansing Flame more than once per assault phase because attacks have now been made.

That's his point.

puma713 wrote:I am refusing to answer your CF vs. CF because it has no bearing whatsoever on the argument.

you refuse to answer it because it would undermine your entire argument.

That is why your argument is incorrect.

Thanks for the discussion.

rigeld2 wrote:Cleansing Flame has to go off before blows are struck (attacks made). By your interpretation, you cannot Cleansing Flame more than once per assault phase because attacks have now been made.

That's his point.

Again, what does that have to do with Hynotic Gaze, which is not an attack? CF vs. CF has no bearing whatsoever, because we're not talking about an attack versus an attack. We're talking about a power versus an attack.

No, you're talking about a power vs a power.

If CF itself is an attack, there can only ever be one cast per assault phase.

If CF is not an attack, HG doesn't stop it.

That's what it comes down to. You are asserting the former, ignoring the other implications this has. This is why your argument fails.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:I am refusing to answer your CF vs. CF because it has no bearing whatsoever on the argument.

you refuse to answer it because it would undermine your entire argument.

Um, no. I am refusing to answer it, because it is just as relevant as you asking me "What is the coherency measurement for squadrons?" It has nothing to do with the argument.

If Hypnotic Gaze were an attack, then yes, your question would be relevant. Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack, it is not a "blow being struck". So, tell me how this relates to CF vs. CF? Explan that to me and I will answer your question.

DeathReaper wrote:That is why your argument is incorrect.

Thanks for the discussion.

Too funny. You have no basis for an argument - so you plug your ears. Ignorance is bliss, eh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:No, you're talking about a power vs a power.

If CF itself is an attack, there can only ever be one cast per assault phase.

We know that it is an attack. I posted a picture of the FAQ above. Unless you're saying that FAQs don't count now? It's not my fault that GW can't write rules plainly or clearly. No matter the implications of CF vs. CF, it is an attack. Even if it means it breaks Cleansing Flame. Rage is broken, but we work around that don't we?

So, what you two are saying, is that Cleansing Flame is not an attack, even though the FAQ writes plainly that it is.

I'm not sure we have anything else to talk about.

CF is used before any blows are struck. I think we can al agree that "blows" are the same as "attacks". This means if my Purifiers assault your Purifiers, and I pass my CF psychic test, blows have not been struck. Correct? That means you would not be able to use your CF, since it has to be used before any blows are dealt. That is what the claim is on your understanding of the rule.

Happyjew wrote:CF is used before any blows are struck. I think we can al agree that "blows" are the same as "attacks". This means if my Purifiers assault your Purifiers, and I pass my CF psychic test, blows have not been struck. Correct? That means you would not be able to use your CF, since it has to be used before any blows are dealt. That is what the claim is on your understanding of the rule.

And hence why CF vs. CF has no bearing. Is Hypnotic Gaze an attack?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote: I think we can al agree that "blows" are the same as "attacks".

Blows could mean attacks, yes. It could also mean "initiative-step-attacks". We don't know since "blows" isn't defined.

The results of CF (ie the wounds) are an attack. Casting the power itself is not.

You have no basis for claiming a shouting match must ensue to see who casts a power first. And that's what you're asserting - if one must come before the other, and they both can be declared at the same time, if the GK player blurts out "CF!" first, HG cannot be cast.

Powers that have a simultaneous trigger go off simultaneously.

rigeld2 wrote:The results of CF (ie the wounds) are an attack. Casting the power itself is not.

You have no basis for claiming a shouting match must ensue to see who casts a power first. And that's what you're asserting - if one must come before the other, and they both can be declared at the same time, if the GK player blurts out "CF!" first, HG cannot be cast.

Powers that have a simultaneous trigger go off simultaneously.

And the flaw of the entire argument rears its head.

Listen carefully:

Cleansing Flame has no condition that must be met, other than it goes before other attacks.

Hypnotic Gaze has no condition that must be met, other than it goes before other attacks.

With me so far?

Cleansing Flame is an attack - no matter how it is produced - weapon, psychic power, fist, act of God - it is an attack. To say that it is not is to blatantly ignore the Grey Knight FAQ.

Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack.

Still with me?

Therefore, using Cleansing Flame at the same time or before Hypnotic Gaze breaks the rules of Hypnotic Gaze. Using Hypnotic Gaze at the same time or before Cleansing Flame breaks no rules, as it is not a "blow being struck".

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The results of CF (ie the wounds) are an attack. Casting the power itself is not.

You have no basis for claiming a shouting match must ensue to see who casts a power first. And that's what you're asserting - if one must come before the other, and they both can be declared at the same time, if the GK player blurts out "CF!" first, HG cannot be cast.

Powers that have a simultaneous trigger go off simultaneously.

And the flaw of the entire argument rears its head.

Listen carefully:

Cleansing Flame has no condition that must be met, other than it goes before other attacks.

Hypnotic Gaze has no condition that must be met, other than it goes before other attacks.

With me so far?

Cleansing Flame is an attack - no matter how it is produced - weapon, psychic power, fist, act of God - it is an attack. To say that it is not is to blatantly ignore the Grey Knight FAQ.

Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack.

Still with me?

Therefore, using Cleansing Flame at the same time or before Hypnotic Gaze breaks the rules of Hypnotic Gaze. Using Hypnotic Gaze at the same time or before Cleansing Flame breaks no rules, as it is not a "blow being struck".

rigeld2 wrote:No, you're talking about a power vs a power.

If CF itself is an attack, there can only ever be one cast per assault phase.

If CF is not an attack, HG doesn't stop it.

That's what it comes down to. You are asserting the former, ignoring the other implications this has. This is why your argument fails.

In case you missed it. You're advocating a race condition where one is not required in the rules.

Oh, and Marsden, both rigeld and I are Tyranid players, and we agree that HG does not stop CF.

rigeld2 wrote:
In case you missed it. You're advocating a race condition where one is not required in the rules.

*sighs* No, I'm not.

Player 1:I am assaulting your Genestealers with Crowe. I am going to use the defensive stance. You pile in.
Player 2 shuffles his genestealers around Crowe.
Player 1:Alright. Cleansing Flame.
Player 2: Before you do that, I need to cast Hypnotic Gaze
Player 1:Why?
Player 2:Because it says it goes off before all attacks.
Player 1:Well so does Cleansing Flame.
Player 2:Yeah, but Hypnotic Gaze is not an attack, so Cleansing Flame has no permission to go first.

There is no frantic "race" that you keep trying to rest your argument on. Honestly, my argument hasn't changed at all. It is the two of you who keep coming back with different angles, trying to rationalize why CF isn't an attack, or why they must go at the same time, or why there would be a race to cast first.

Puma - and, again, you are asserting primacy in HG (in HG vs CF), yet this is a shouting match.

If I yell "CF!" and cast it first, you cannot then cast HG - by your own admission, it breaks rules to do so.

If the powers go off and resolve simultaneously, there is no race to be first, and both powers can be resolved perfectly fine - because they are held separately until they have resolved, HG is not violated and neither is CF

Both are cast before any blows aka attacks that round. Both have no primacy over eachother, so they go at the same time.

CF the power is not a close combat attack - it results in CC attacks, but casting the power is not itself a CC attack. So you cast the power at the same time as HG

If player 2 declares CF, HG cannot be declared.
There's no permission for you to pre-empt someone's action.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Puma - and, again, you are asserting primacy in HG (in HG vs CF), yet this is a shouting match.

If I yell "CF!" first, you cannot then cast HG - by your own admission, it breaks rules to do so.

If it breaks the rules to do so, then you have to act in accordance with the rules. What you're saying is if you yell "CF!", then all of a sudden, you're allowed to break the rules. By the rules, you cannot cast Cleansing Flame first, if the other player decides he wants to use Hypnotic Gaze. You have to allow the other player to use it, otherwise you have broken the rules.

To stick your tongue out and say "Nyah! Nyah! I said it first!" doesn't matter. You have broken the condition of Hypnotic Gaze if you are allowed to go at the same time or before.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If the powers go off and resolve simultaneously, there is no race to be first, and both powers can be resolved perfectly fine - because they are held separately until they have resolved

Okay, so you can make close combat attacks at the same time you're using something that must go off before close combat attacks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:HG is not violated and neither is CF

Incorrect. HG is violated, CF is not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:If player 2 declares CF, HG cannot be declared.
There's no permission for you to pre-empt someone's action.

The permission is right there in HG. To not allow HG breaks a rule. To allow HG breaks no rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
CF the power is not a close combat attack - it results in CC attacks, but casting the power is not itself a CC attack.

Can you show me where it says that here?:

Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

Wow.

If you say, "I'm casting CF!"

And I say, "Well, I'd like to cast Hypnotic Gaze first."

And you don't let me, then you're breaking the rules.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

Wow.

If you say, "I'm casting CF!"

And I say, "Well, I'd like to cast Hypnotic Gaze first."

And you don't let me, then you're breaking the rules.

No, I'm not. HG must be cast before attacks, but it's optional. If you forget to cast it and we start rolling attacks, you can't go back and cast it.

Isnt HG only affect one model in BtB contact?...so if the Knight of Flame in a Purifier squad is not in contact then you could not stop it...at the same time its a psychic ability that tgts the model, so the nid would lose -1 to Ld right?

DK wrote:Isnt HG only affect one model in BtB contact?...so if the Knight of Flame in a Purifier squad is not in contact then you could not stop it...at the same time its a psychic ability that tgts the model, so the nid would lose -1 to Ld right?

Read the given example - Crowe.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

Wow.

If you say, "I'm casting CF!"

And I say, "Well, I'd like to cast Hypnotic Gaze first."

And you don't let me, then you're breaking the rules.

No, I'm not. HG must be cast before attacks, but it's optional. If you forget to cast it and we start rolling attacks, you can't go back and cast it.

I didn't "forget". You simply raced ahead and started rolling. So, what you're saying is, resort to being TFG to prove your point?

Simply amazing.

I'm done. We're both entrenched. As I said earlier, for those that aren't convinced by the waffling of the opposition in this thread, ask your TO or dice off with your opponent.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Not true. Casting HG is optional. If you lose the race there is no requirement to allow it to be cast.

Wow.

If you say, "I'm casting CF!"

And I say, "Well, I'd like to cast Hypnotic Gaze first."

And you don't let me, then you're breaking the rules.

No, I'm not. HG must be cast before attacks, but it's optional. If you forget to cast it and we start rolling attacks, you can't go back and cast it.

I didn't "forget". You simply raced ahead and started rolling. So, what you're saying is, resort to being TFG to prove your point?

Simply amazing.

I'm done. We're both entrenched. As I said earlier, for those that aren't convinced by the waffling of the opposition in this thread, ask your TO or dice off with your opponent.

Nice accusation.
You still haven't showed how a race is not required using your interpretation.
You're just saying that it's polite to not have a race.

True or not, that's irrelevant. You can't use politeness in a RAW discussion.

So, by that logic, if I'm playing against Grey Knights and start my shooting phase and roll dice before my opponent gets to say he wants to cast shrouding, then he's not allowed to do so? No, that's not how it works. If you try to blurt out Cleansing Flame, I say, "before you do that, I get to cast my Hypnotic Gaze."

No, really, RAW that's how it works.
It being a dick move, and how people normally play it is irrelevan when discussin RAW. puma has asserted that HG must be allowed to happen before CF using RAW. There is no basis for that assertion.

HIWPI HG doesn't stop CF, and I'd allow someone to cast CF after we started the initiative count.

Very well, then. RAW, Hypnotic Gaze goes before Cleansing Flame and prevents it from working.

Elios, the "race" scenario is the only argument that they have left. And you're right, it doesn't work that way.

The reason that is not the way it works is because the opponent has been given explicit permission to execute an action. To not allow that action because you alone have moved on, is not only being TFG, but it is not allowing your opponent to make a move that he has been given permission to make. You're restricting him from using a rule he is allowed to use.

That, to me, is just flat out cheating.

Actually, the race argument isn't the only one left - it's just the only one you're not actively ignoring.

HG doesn't stop CF because PCCAs don't exist. It's a power.
Or do I not have to roll for it now? Or perils? Etc.

Edit: and seriously - you don't have to call me a cheater to try and win the argument.

rigeld2 wrote:Actually, the race argument isn't the only one left - it's just the only one you're not actively ignoring.

HG doesn't stop CF because PCCAs don't exist. It's a power.

GW disagrees with you.

rigeld2 wrote:
Edit: and seriously - you don't have to call me a cheater to try and win the argument.

I didn't know you supported it until just now. And I couldn't care less about "winning" this argument. I don't play GK or Tyranids, so it doesn't even affect me. I'm not here to win - I'm here to get a better understanding of the rules so I can be a better player on the tabletop.

It is difficult to achieve that (a better understanding) when one side of the argument ignores blatant truths - such as CF being an attack. That makes it difficult to have a progressive conversation.

wow i didnt mean to start a huge discussion. I am just going to ask a TO because it is apparant that there isn't a clear cut answer, but from what I have read and hear from local players all that matters is what is written in the book and in this situation i believe the book favor hypnotic gazye.


Simply for the fact that my guys take wounds, what do i take wounds from, CF therefore I was attacked somehow, which HG is supposed to stop. Argue further if you like but I am going to stick with my reason and if you want to correct me then be my TO, otherwise I am just going to assuming you are either stupid or trying to gain an advantage.


Thank you for your input and good day.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Actually, the race argument isn't the only one left - it's just the only one you're not actively ignoring.

HG doesn't stop CF because PCCAs don't exist. It's a power.

GW disagrees with you.

Awesome. Since there's no rules surrounding them, you don't need to make a psychic test, take Perils, suffer against psychic defense, it doesn't count against powers per turn...

Disagree? Find a rule. It's a close combat attack remember, not a PCCA.

rigeld2 wrote:
Edit: and seriously - you don't have to call me a cheater to try and win the argument.

I didn't know you supported it until just now.

It's rare to put forward an argument you don't support.

And I couldn't care less about "winning" this argument. I don't play GK or Tyranids, so it doesn't even affect me. I'm not here to win - I'm here to get a better understanding of the rules so I can be a better player on the tabletop.

I play Nids. But thanks for insinuating I have a bias that is making me think the way I do.

It is difficult to achieve that (a better understanding) when one side of the argument ignores blatant truths - such as CF being an attack. That makes it difficult to have a progressive conversation.

I haven't ignored that. You're ignoring the implications of treating as an attack in all respects.
You cannot have something that is both a psychic power and a close combat attack.
If you disagree, find a rule supporting it.

I have seen it happen in a GT, they happen at the same time, and by rules at the same initiative models killed can still attack. It was a GK champ vs Crowe, and Crowe had to take a I test because of the mines, he still was allowed to cast CF...saw it again with CF being cast by a knight of flame and the nid player Passes HG on the knight, trying to stop CF...because it counts as a CCA to count to combat result its not affected.

Its also would not block the Hero strike that crowe and the champ do when they die, still an attack but isnt blocked by HG.

rigeld2 wrote:
You cannot have something that is both a psychic power and a close combat attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic power. It is also a close combat attack.

rigeld2 wrote:If you disagree, find a rule supporting it.

So you're saying that the above answer is incorrect? Better let GW know.

So if Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack for all purposes, what Initiative does it go at?

Happyjew wrote:So if Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack for all purposes, what Initiative does it go at?

Before any "blows are struck".

Okay, enough of me answering questions. How about you, Happyjew?

Is CF not a close combat attack, even though what I posted above shows clearly that it is?

It's a close combat attack for the purposes of things like Dodge and Combat Resolution. Since both CF and HG both occur between Moving and Initiative 10, they must both occur at the same time.

Happyjew wrote:It's a close combat attack for the purposes of things like Dodge and Combat Resolution.

Can you point me to where it says that below, please?

Happyjew wrote:Since both CF and HG both occur between Moving and Initiative 10, they must both occur at the same time.

Sure. They could occur at the same time, if they were both attacks. Since one of them is not an attack, it is not governed by the rules of Cleansing Flame. Hypnotic Gaze is not a "blow being struck", so Cleansing Flame does not have to go at the same time or before HG. Unfortunately, Cleansing Flame is an attack, and therefore Hypnotic Gaze must go first, since it is used before any attacks.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You cannot have something that is both a psychic power and a close combat attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic power. It is also a close combat attack.

I see a rule saying it's a Close Combat attack. This changes it from being a Psychic power. I do not see a rule saying it's both.

rigeld2 wrote:If you disagree, find a rule supporting it.

So you're saying that the above answer is incorrect? Better let GW know.

No, it's not incorrect. Your interpretation of it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:Unfortunately, Cleansing Flame is an attack, and therefore Hypnotic Gaze must go first, since it is used before any attacks.

You mean Hypnotic Gaze must be declared first, of course.
Since it's an optional ability, there's no requirement for it ever happen.

Elios Harg wrote:So, by that logic, if I'm playing against Grey Knights and start my shooting phase and roll dice before my opponent gets to say he wants to cast shrouding, then he's not allowed to do so? No, that's not how it works. If you try to blurt out Cleansing Flame, I say, "before you do that, I get to cast my Hypnotic Gaze."

Shrouding has no requirement to be cast at the start of the shooting phase. Try again, with an example that isnt just wrong

all i want to say is, look up the definition of "Ensuing", both happen in that "magic moment" and it only stop attacks after that "magic" phase that isnt governed in the rule book.

Here are the relative timings:
Edit: These are word for word quotations from the relevant psychic powers. I lengthened them a bit so that people actually understand this. Added parts italiceed
HG: "This psychic power is used during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made. If successful..." C:Tyranids pg 62
CF: "This power can be used during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck." C:GK pg 31

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
HG: "If the Broodlord rolls equal to or higher than the targets's score, that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat". C:Tyranids pg 62
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.
Edit: To be clear. HG cannot stop CF.


Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

Edit: Added the quotations fully as some people didn't seem to believe them otherwise.

Luide wrote:Here are the relative timings:
HG: "during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made"
CF: "during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck"

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Elios Harg wrote:So, by that logic, if I'm playing against Grey Knights and start my shooting phase and roll dice before my opponent gets to say he wants to cast shrouding, then he's not allowed to do so? No, that's not how it works. If you try to blurt out Cleansing Flame, I say, "before you do that, I get to cast my Hypnotic Gaze."

Shrouding has no requirement to be cast at the start of the shooting phase. Try again, with an example that isnt just wrong

Ah, very well, I had it confused with Sanctuary, same logic applies though.

DK wrote:

Luide wrote:Here are the relative timings:
HG: "during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made"
CF: "during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck"

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

So he left out some non-important part of the power. However, the parts he has quoted, are word for word.

DK wrote:
That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

Actually, they were 100% word for word quotes on relevant parts of the rules. I added the irrelevant parts so you can be happy too, but please next time:
When you claim that paraphrasing instead of quoting, check it yourself before posting. It's just common courtesy to do so.

Edit: There's no reason to post those parts of the CF/GH rules that have no part in this discussion. For example the "this power cannot affect models that have no LD value" in GH.

Happyjew wrote:

DK wrote:

Luide wrote:Here are the relative timings:
HG: "during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made"
CF: "during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck"

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

So he left out some non-important part of the power. However, the parts he has quoted, are word for word.

you left out the word "ensuing" which is defined as (following subsequently or in order)...this whole thread is based on words and what means what and you left out a word that is used in the powers entry to describe how its used. That said it says "that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat" using the word as pushing "everything after" the power is used to not being able to attack...CF is activated the same time, and tho its a CCA, (like the argument about rending CF for Crowe) it dosen't wound like an attack, it creates wounds on a roll...In short its not an attack that can be stopped by HG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:

DK wrote:
That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

Actually, they were 100% word for word quotes on relevant parts of the rules. I added the irrelevant parts so you can be happy too, but please next time:
When you claim that paraphrasing instead of quoting, check it yourself before posting. It's just common courtesy to do so.

Edit: There's no reason to post those parts of the CF/GH rules that have no part in this discussion. For example the "this power cannot affect models that have no LD value" in GH.

Maybe you should buy the codex since everyone is leaving out the word ensuing in the quote, im looking at it right now and it has the word ensuing in the HG entry.

Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

DK wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

DK wrote:

Luide wrote:Here are the relative timings:
HG: "during your assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made"
CF: "during the Assault phase in either players turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck"

As per BRB (pg 34, 44) "blows are struck" is equivalent to "Attacks are made"
"For example, after all blows are struck, a fearless unit has lost the fight by a difference of 3." Brb, page 34

So timing of these two powers is identical. We have two options: They happen at same time (simultaneously) or they happen at some order.
We know that there are no rules regarding what order they should be done, so I'd go for the "happen simultaneously" interpretation, but in this case, it doesn't actually matter...

Now, for the effect:
GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Anyway, the FAQ question/answer is very poorly worded. Kinda like "Have you stopped hitting your wife? Answer yes/no".

That is not the quote for what word for word HG says, you have been lawyer-ed.

So he left out some non-important part of the power. However, the parts he has quoted, are word for word.

you left out the word "ensuing" which is defined as (following subsequently or in order)... his whole thread is based on words and what means what and you left out a word that is used in the powers entry to describe how its used.

You mean the ensuing that I underlined / bolded that was part of the original post. I'm afraid you really, really need to read my posts before replying to them.

DK wrote:
That said it says "that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat" using the word as pushing "everything after" the power is used to not being able to attack...CF is activated the same time, and tho its a CCA, (like the argument about rending CF for Crowe) it dosen't wound like an attack, it creates wounds on a roll...In short its not an attack that can be stopped by HG.

Yes. I agree, CF cannot stop HG. That was the whole point of

Luide wrote:Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

You know i can troll too...watch this...ready? with out any argument i can do it too...here we go...

No it doesn't (Read my above post)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Luide

I wasnt arguing vs you, i was referring to your first description of HG, then stating the missed word describes that the effect most of the people in this thread are pushing to get to is not how it is defined. My bad if you felt i was attacking your post.

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

You know i can troll too...watch this...ready? with out any argument i can do it too...here we go...

No it doesn't (Read my above post)

I just looked up and read both rules.

Hypnotic Gaze - Tyranid codex p 62
Cleansing Flame - Grey Knights codex p. 31

Call someone else a troll.

HG - "before any attacks are made"
CF - "before blows are struck" - only before a specific type of attack is made - "blows".

I'll say it again. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

You know i can troll too...watch this...ready? with out any argument i can do it too...here we go...

No it doesn't (Read my above post)

I just looked up and read both rules.

Hypnotic Gaze - Tyranid codex p 62
Cleansing Flame - Grey Knights codex p. 31

Call someone else a troll.

HG - "before any attacks are made"
CF - "before blows are struck" - only before a specific type of attack is made - "blows".

I'll say it again. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Attack.

Good...now read the part where the first attack it can block is in the "ensuing combat" not stated as same phase, but the following.

@ the Dakka Mods.
It is really hard not to insult people in this forum, its like fishing in a fish tank with an AA12 full of frag rounds.

We should be allowed to start a trash talk thread, dont come in if its going to hurt your feeling.

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Hypnotic Gaze happens before any attacks.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic (CC) attack.

Clearly HG goes first.

You know i can troll too...watch this...ready? with out any argument i can do it too...here we go...

No it doesn't (Read my above post)

I just looked up and read both rules.

Hypnotic Gaze - Tyranid codex p 62
Cleansing Flame - Grey Knights codex p. 31

Call someone else a troll.

HG - "before any attacks are made"
CF - "before blows are struck" - only before a specific type of attack is made - "blows".

I'll say it again. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Attack.

Good...now read the part where the first attack it can block is in the "ensuing combat" not stated as same phase, but the following.

@ the Dakka Mods.
It is really hard not to insult people in this forum, its like fishing in a fish tank with an AA12 full of frag rounds.

We should be allowed to start a trash talk thread, dont come in if its going to hurt your feeling.

Cleansing Flame does not happen "before the ensuing combat", only "before blows have been struck" therefore it is still part of "the ensuing combat".

Sorry, that one doesn't work. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

- Trash talk - because nobody cares about your ego, insults, or whatever other petty way you make yourself feel smarter or better than the other poster.

@Nemesor Dave

Really? Again its in the same time and stop attacks in the following combat, CF happens outside of the Following Combat...open a dictionary and read what that word means...Google is your friend.

ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

DK wrote:@Nemesor Dave

Really? Again its in the same time and stop attacks in the following combat, CF happens outside of the Following Combat...open a dictionary and read what that word means...Google is your friend.

Where do you get these two happen at the same time?

1) Before the ensuing combat.
2) Before blows are struck

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack that happens before blows are struck.

It's still part of the combat.

Does this sound like they count as happening at the same time? CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"

It can't be much clearer, Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

You, my friend, have a lot of posts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

I think the issue is that it is the squad that is using the power.
Friendly answer
So i'm assuming a little here (bear with me ) it modifies how the unit engages on combat (meaning instead of hitting and wounding you do all that 4+ stuff) . Hypnotic gaze only effects a single model.

now if there were 3 brood lords and three grey knights and they all succumbed to hypnotic gaze, then i think the power should not go off. is that how rules as written expresses it, not quite.


Now for a Lawer-ed out version
The other deciding factors for me are:
1. is cleansing flame a psychic close combat attack.
2. in the rule book does it clarify the I step that comes before I10 (which is what is happening here)
3. Do you really feel like being a jerk

If one is true and the power is treated from originating from one model, then yes it stops. because sure you got the effect off and that effect lets you make a close combat attack. You were hit with a power that stops you from making close combat attacks. it has been countered, like it or not.

Now if it is not treated as originating from one model but from the unit the whole unit can not be disabled unless you have a lot of brood lords and even then im still not so sure (I would rule it goes off as a 'nid player)

if 1 is untrue and it is NOT a psychic close combat attack then there is NO chance that the brood lord can stop it.

if someone could chime in with 2. I would be much obliged.

3. hypnotic gaze is great and all but you can not expect it to stop a whole units worth of attacks, in my view any TO would not interpret that as rules as intended, and that is their job to take the rules as written and decide intention.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:@Nemesor Dave

Really? Again its in the same time and stop attacks in the following combat, CF happens outside of the Following Combat...open a dictionary and read what that word means...Google is your friend.

Where do you get these two happen at the same time?

1) Before the ensuing combat.
2) Before blows are struck

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack that happens before blows are struck.

It's still part of the combat.

Does this sound like they count as happening at the same time? CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"

It can't be much clearer, Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

You have to be kidding me right?...stop using diffrent parts of the argument in the wrong places...

Ok break down, they happen before I order attacks, after moves have been done, thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Now, when HG passes it stops attacks, which is defined in the rule book as S vs T attacks, CF does not roll for that, also its both cast in the same "magic" phase...but by def HG only stop attacks in the ensuing combat...guess what...thats two reasons why Crowe would take like half that Gene assault and flush them into the Emperors debt that all filthy Xenos owe to him. Read your posts and try to make sense in your head using words real definition.

Seriously, read the thread. It's not a squad using the power, it's Crowe in this example.

Threads don't go 5 pages with no one realizing something that simple.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Yes, I wrote "I believe". You see, in threads such as this one, we are all stating our beliefs and opinions regarding rules. To put it another way - this is what the rules state.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack

It happens before blows have been struck, and causes wounds that count as being caused by a close combat attack.
Hypnotic Gaze prevents the brotherhood psyker from attacking.

Outside this argument, who gets into this situation, if i know a gene squad is in outflank, i have 10 death cults and an inq with nads ready, the Genes may not even get to attack if the dice like me. 30 Genes gone in one turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack.

Source? that has thos words explaining it is a psychic attack? because to my knowlage its a psychic ability that causes CC wounds on a 4+...not an attack. so Please where can i go to correct myself.

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, read the thread. It's not a squad using the power, it's Crowe in this example.

Threads don't go 5 pages with no one realizing something that simple.

It doesn't really matter if it's Crowe or a unit of purifiers.

DK wrote:
thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Can you give me a page number for this? Otherwise, this "magic time" that everyone keeps assuming is there, isn't relevant.

DK wrote:Outside this argument, who gets into this situation, if i know a gene squad is in outflank, i have 10 death cults and an inq with nads ready, the Genes may not even get to attack if the dice like me. 30 Genes gone in one turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack.

Source? that has thos words explaining it is a psychic attack? because to my knowlage its a psychic ability that causes CC wounds on a 4+...not an attack. so Please where can i go to correct myself.

Have a look at a dictionary or maybe take some English lessons. I can't really help you learn the difference between an ability and an attack.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

Is this an actual quote from Cleansing Flame? I am not near my codices.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, read the thread. It's not a squad using the power, it's Crowe in this example.

Threads don't go 5 pages with no one realizing something that simple.

It doesn't really matter if it's Crowe or a unit of purifiers.

It kinda does because if the knight of flame is dead you wont be able to block the Purifier that casts CF, because if it was me i would pull it from the back, away from BtB

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, read the thread. It's not a squad using the power, it's Crowe in this example.

Threads don't go 5 pages with no one realizing something that simple.

It doesn't really matter if it's Crowe or a unit of purifiers.

It really does - HG specifies a single model. Purifiers cast as a unit.

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

Is this an actual quote from Cleansing Flame? I am not near my codices.

Sorry, the actual wording "Unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes"

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:
thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Can you give me a page number for this? Otherwise, this "magic time" that everyone keeps assuming is there, isn't relevant.

If its not relevant then the time between moves and blows means nothing, and CF or HG will never be cast...otherwise i just call it something instead of typeing out "before blows have struck but after assault moves have been made" because that's too much to type 300 times in one thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:Outside this argument, who gets into this situation, if i know a gene squad is in outflank, i have 10 death cults and an inq with nads ready, the Genes may not even get to attack if the dice like me. 30 Genes gone in one turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:ND - check your rulebook, or just have read this thread before posting. Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order

Your argument is conceded and void

CF - "the wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes". This part makes me believe that the CF attacks are still part of "combat".

You said "makes you believe" that dosent make it a rule...also the HG rule dosent stop "close combat" attacks, it says only may not attack.

Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack.

Source? that has thos words explaining it is a psychic attack? because to my knowlage its a psychic ability that causes CC wounds on a 4+...not an attack. so Please where can i go to correct myself.

Have a look at a dictionary or maybe take some English lessons. I can't really help you learn the difference between an ability and an attack.

You do know this is trolling right?...you are unable to answer my question because within the rules its not what you said it was, therefor your whole argument is something you have made up since you make a claim but cannot show the support for it. If your not just blowing smoke then where is it written what you have claimed to be fact?

Thrawn - Brotherhood of psykers rule states "the unit counts as a single psyker". So in this case, the HG effecting 1 psyker is enough to stop the power.

I think this is a step towards resolution.

These go off at the same time, as they have exactly the same wording. (just re read HG)

I cast my vote that if ONE MODEL tried to use it it fails, as that one model is effectively disabled for that assault phase.

While if MORE THAN ONE MODEL is giving up it's attacks to use cleansing flame (or if they are applied in addition to their attacks ) then I would rule that it goes off (though if it applied in addition to normal attacks, the model that has been hit my hypnotic gaze is still losing its close combat attacks)

I think that is the fairest possible way to handle it.

It makes perfect logical sense that if one model is being disabled in combat for a round (rules as intended, and good sportsmanship) then that one model should not be able to lawyer their way into making close combat attacks.

While if it is a unit I see no reason (rules as intended, and good sportsmanship) that a power that effects only one model should stop a whole squad from using a power as they are all channeling it, not just the lone model who is being stupefied.

This is my opinion, feel free to argue but I will maintain this is the fairest way to call it.

To put it another way,

unsaved wounds caused by Cleansing Flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for the purpose of being prevented by Hypnotic Gaze.

Thrawn - nobody is giving up attacks. Cleansing Flame is a psychic attack that is done before any models perform their normal attacks.

DK wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:
thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Can you give me a page number for this? Otherwise, this "magic time" that everyone keeps assuming is there, isn't relevant.

If its not relevant then the time between moves and blows means nothing, and CF or HG will never be cast...otherwise i just call it something instead of typeing out "before blows have struck but after assault moves have been made" because that's too much to type 300 times in one thread.

Or, it means that both HG and CF are a part of the close combat.

By rigeld2's definition though, I can simply start rolling my attacks without letting you roll Cleansing Flame anyway, since it is optional. So I guess all this is moot. In fact, by that definition, you cannot make any reactive moves, unless your opponent lets you.

Luide wrote:GH: "That model may not attack in the ensuing close combat".
Good thing is that close combat is defined term as per BRB page 33 :"Fight a close combat: Engaged models roll to hit and wound in Initiative order".
Because CF is done before "the ensuing close combat", it doesn't matter if CF is a close combat attack or not.

This 100%

The model may not attack in the ensuing combat.

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

DeathReaper wrote:

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

So it happens in the "Defenders React" phase?

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:
thats the magic phase of the assault phase (i made that up since its not officially called anything)

Can you give me a page number for this? Otherwise, this "magic time" that everyone keeps assuming is there, isn't relevant.

If its not relevant then the time between moves and blows means nothing, and CF or HG will never be cast...otherwise i just call it something instead of typeing out "before blows have struck but after assault moves have been made" because that's too much to type 300 times in one thread.

Or, it means that both HG and CF are a part of the close combat.

By rigeld2's definition though, I can simply start rolling my attacks without letting you roll Cleansing Flame anyway, since it is optional. So I guess all this is moot. In fact, by that definition, you cannot make any reactive moves, unless your opponent lets you.

And in doing so you would be washed out of a GT due to not allocating your wounds and measuring who is in range. Any GK player will state casting CF when you claim the assault, if you tried to skip it then i would request a complaint vs you and a Judge would come over. After explaining you would be placed in the wrong for trying to sneak past the other players chance to make an attack. In a Friendly game i would pack up and never play you again, or just keep taking my turn and keep skipping your turn, see how stupid that sounds?

DK wrote:

And in doing so you would be washed out of a GT due to not allocating your wounds and measuring who is in range. Any GK player will state casting CF when you claim the assault, if you tried to skip it then i would request a complaint vs you and a Judge would come over. After explaining you would be placed in the wrong for trying to sneak past the other players chance to make an attack. In a Friendly game i would pack up and never play you again, or just keep taking my turn and keep skipping your turn, see how stupid that sounds?

Hey, don't tell me. I agree with you. Tell rigeld2 and nosferatu1001. Those were their words.

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

So it happens in the "Defenders React" phase?

...without attacking you personally...answer this...isnt "defenders react" a move?...answer your own question.

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

So it happens in the "Defenders React" phase?

Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

DeathReaper wrote:
Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

Which is a part of the "close combat" step of the Assault Phase. Unless you have another point in time that is defined somewhere in the rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:

...without attacking you personally...answer this...isnt "defenders react" a move?...answer your own question.

It was rhetorical.

Here is a wrench to throw in, if a broodlord is hit and fails a 6 result for the psychotroke nad, can he be forced to cast HG on a gene model? or if a gene model fails and is BtB with the Broodlord, can he stop his own unit from hitting its self?

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

Which is a part of the "close combat" step of the Assault Phase. Unless you have another point in time that is defined somewhere in the rules?

The wording on both CF and HG tell us when it goes off, after moves but before any attacks. This is a specific point in time.

HG only effects the ENSUING combat (The ensuing combat is the strikes at Initiative order.)

Not sure what you are getting at with your "part of the "close combat" step" part. this does not matter, as HG and CF are used simultaneously.

Here is another wrench, where does it say CF is an attack, it makes wounds on a 4+ but its not an attack...only a psychic power.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Casting CF happens before the ensuing combat.

Your argument is invalid.

So it happens in the "Defenders React" phase?

Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

Just pointing out, this is inaccurate. CF does not occur before the ensuing combat. Precisely this is not the wording nor is it even suggested in the rule. The phrase "before blows are struck" does not exclude CF from happening during combat.

DK wrote:Here is another wrench, where does it say CF is an attack, it makes wounds on a 4+ but its not an attack...only a psychic power.

Have you not read the thread?

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:Here is another wrench, where does it say CF is an attack, it makes wounds on a 4+ but its not an attack...only a psychic power.

Have you not read the thread?

I have, and in the FAQ it says its a CCA...but that's for the unsaved wounds caused as per in the CF entry. your trying to argue that HG stops something that isnt an attack till its already caused wounds.

Even looking before this, still havent backed up the whole claim of Psychic attack...or half of the other arguments.

Anyone else smell troll flak?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Just after the "Defenders React" moves are completed, and of course before the ensuing combat, just like when HG is used.

Just pointing out, this is inaccurate. CF does not occur before the ensuing combat. Precisely this is not the wording nor is it even suggested in the rule. The phrase "before blows are struck" does not exclude CF from happening during combat.

They are both used after moves and before attacks are made.

Blows are struck = Attacks are made.

They happen Simultaneously.

I would like to point out if something takes wound it was attacked/damaged in some fashion. it is clearly stated "FAQ it says its a CCA" regardless of the situation or intentions. So lets just end this to disagree and I will just let a TO be the judge. Now how do I close this discussion?

DK wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:Here is another wrench, where does it say CF is an attack, it makes wounds on a 4+ but its not an attack...only a psychic power.

Have you not read the thread?

I have, and in the FAQ it says its a CCA...but that's for the unsaved wounds caused as per in the CF entry. your trying to argue that HG stops something that isnt an attack till its already caused wounds.

Um, no. The FAQ doesn't say all these implied meanings that everyone in this thread is giving it. It simply says that CF is a CCA. That is all it says. If it wasn't a CCA, couldn't GW have said, "Cleansing Flame is neither." ?

And then, you're implying that FAQ is simply clarifying the already crystal clear wording on Cleansing Flame that all wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes?

It must be convenient for everyone to make up rules on a whim. When you decide to start using the rules you're presented instead of assuming everything you're posting, we can actually move this discussion past us re-stating all of our opinions in every other post.

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:

And in doing so you would be washed out of a GT due to not allocating your wounds and measuring who is in range. Any GK player will state casting CF when you claim the assault, if you tried to skip it then i would request a complaint vs you and a Judge would come over. After explaining you would be placed in the wrong for trying to sneak past the other players chance to make an attack. In a Friendly game i would pack up and never play you again, or just keep taking my turn and keep skipping your turn, see how stupid that sounds?

Hey, don't tell me. I agree with you. Tell rigeld2 and nosferatu1001. Those were their words.

And that's exactly true. It's polite to allow your opponent reactive abilities.
There is no rule requiring you to do so, and you still haven't come up with a rule that opposes it.

And you still haven't understood that if CF is an attack in all ways, you don't have to follow the rules for psychic powers anymore.

Riozaki wrote:I would like to point out if something takes wound it was attacked/damaged in some fashion. it is clearly stated "FAQ it says its a CCA" regardless of the situation or intentions. So lets just end this to disagree and I will just let a TO be the judge. Now how do I close this discussion?

If this is fact, then Crowes CF rends and ignores armor Svs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:Here is another wrench, where does it say CF is an attack, it makes wounds on a 4+ but its not an attack...only a psychic power.

Have you not read the thread?

I have, and in the FAQ it says its a CCA...but that's for the unsaved wounds caused as per in the CF entry. your trying to argue that HG stops something that isnt an attack till its already caused wounds.

Um, no. The FAQ doesn't say all these implied meanings that everyone in this thread is giving it. It simply says that CF is a CCA. That is all it says. If it wasn't a CCA, couldn't GW have said, "Cleansing Flame is neither." ?

And then, you're implying that FAQ is simply clarifying the already crystal clear wording on Cleansing Flame that all wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes?

It must be convenient for everyone to make up rules on a whim. When you decide to start using the rules you're presented instead of assuming everything you're posting, we can actually move this discussion past us re-stating all of our opinions in every other post.

Read the CF entry, the unsaved wounds count as being in caused in CC...not the 4+ to cause a wound part...just that last part...not making it up...its really in there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:

And in doing so you would be washed out of a GT due to not allocating your wounds and measuring who is in range. Any GK player will state casting CF when you claim the assault, if you tried to skip it then i would request a complaint vs you and a Judge would come over. After explaining you would be placed in the wrong for trying to sneak past the other players chance to make an attack. In a Friendly game i would pack up and never play you again, or just keep taking my turn and keep skipping your turn, see how stupid that sounds?

Hey, don't tell me. I agree with you. Tell rigeld2 and nosferatu1001. Those were their words.

And that's exactly true. It's polite to allow your opponent reactive abilities.
There is no rule requiring you to do so, and you still haven't come up with a rule that opposes it.

And you still haven't understood that if CF is an attack in all ways, you don't have to follow the rules for psychic powers anymore.

True


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for record, CF is a psychic ability because they use it then make normal attacks. HG stops the attacks, not the Psychic ability that causes wounds.

DK wrote:
Just for record, CF is a psychic ability because they use it then make normal attacks. HG stops the attacks, not the Psychic ability that causes wounds.

From the latest GK FAQ:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170010a_Grey_Knights_FAQ_Version_1_2_January_2012.pdf
Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close
combat attack? (p31)
A: A close combat attack.

Hypnotic Gaze first sentence:
"This psychic power is used during your Assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made.

In order:

1. Hypnotic Gaze
2. Cleansing Flame

This could not be more clear. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:
Just for record, CF is a psychic ability because they use it then make normal attacks. HG stops the attacks, not the Psychic ability that causes wounds.

From the latest GK FAQ:

Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close
combat attack? (p31)
A: A close combat attack.

Hypnotic Gaze first sentence:
"This psychic power is used during your Assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made.

In order:

1. Hypnotic Gaze
2. Cleansing Flame

This could not be more clear. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

So Cleansing Flame doesn't have to abide by the rules for psychic powers? It's a close combat attack, not a power.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:
Just for record, CF is a psychic ability because they use it then make normal attacks. HG stops the attacks, not the Psychic ability that causes wounds.

From the latest GK FAQ:

Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close
combat attack? (p31)
A: A close combat attack.

Hypnotic Gaze first sentence:
"This psychic power is used during your Assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made.

In order:

1. Hypnotic Gaze
2. Cleansing Flame

This could not be more clear. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

So Cleansing Flame doesn't have to abide by the rules for psychic powers? It's a close combat attack, not a power.

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

rigeld2 wrote:
So Cleansing Flame doesn't have to abide by the rules for psychic powers? It's a close combat attack, not a power.

Okay? It is a close combat attack, not a power. What's your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So Cleansing Flame doesn't have to abide by the rules for psychic powers? It's a close combat attack, not a power.

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

So, it is a close combat attack that can be used after a successful Psychic Test.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So Cleansing Flame doesn't have to abide by the rules for psychic powers? It's a close combat attack, not a power.

Okay? It is a close combat attack, not a power. What's your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So Cleansing Flame doesn't have to abide by the rules for psychic powers? It's a close combat attack, not a power.

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

So, it is a close combat attack that can be used after a successful Psychic Test.

This makes it a psychic attack. I would say anything that can kill a model is an attack, but the FAQ nicely clears this up for those in doubt.

HG happens before attacks. CF is a psychic attack that happens before "blows". CF and "blows" are all close combat attacks.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:
Just for record, CF is a psychic ability because they use it then make normal attacks. HG stops the attacks, not the Psychic ability that causes wounds.

From the latest GK FAQ:

Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close
combat attack? (p31)
A: A close combat attack.

Hypnotic Gaze first sentence:
"This psychic power is used during your Assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made.

In order:

1. Hypnotic Gaze
2. Cleansing Flame

This could not be more clear. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

So Cleansing Flame doesn't have to abide by the rules for psychic powers? It's a close combat attack, not a power.

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

You realize that the next part (the part that matters) is that it prevents a model from attacking in the ensuing combat, thats not anything in the area before "attacks have been made"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

DK wrote:
Just for record, CF is a psychic ability because they use it then make normal attacks. HG stops the attacks, not the Psychic ability that causes wounds.

From the latest GK FAQ:

Q: Is Cleansing Flame a shooting attack or a close
combat attack? (p31)
A: A close combat attack.

Hypnotic Gaze first sentence:
"This psychic power is used during your Assault phase, after any assault moves have been made, but before any attacks are made.

In order:

1. Hypnotic Gaze
2. Cleansing Flame

This could not be more clear. Hypnotic Gaze prevents Cleansing Flame.

So Cleansing Flame doesn't have to abide by the rules for psychic powers? It's a close combat attack, not a power.

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

If your right, that means that 3D6 thing nids do to psychic tests means nothing and it works as normal.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

Don't worry about the hood thing, just don't let your opponent use it. Also, who cares if it doesn't count against the number of powers he can use? What else can he do, Hammerhand? Force Weapon? I'll let you use all of them if you want. Hypnotic Gaze stopped you from attacking anyway, so the more psychic tests you want to roll for no reason, the better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:You realize that the next part (the part that matters) is that it prevents a model from attacking in the ensuing combat, thats not anything in the area before "attacks have been made"

And that "area" has yet to be defined. Still waiting on a page number.

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

Don't worry about the hood thing, just don't let your opponent use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:You realize that the next part (the part that matters) is that it prevents a model from attacking in the ensuing combat, thats not anything in the area before "attacks have been made"

And that "area" has yet to be defined. Still waiting on a page number.

If your right, that means that 3D6 thing nids do to psychic tests means nothing and it works as normal.

rigeld2 wrote:
It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It's a close combat attack and it's cause by a psychic power. Just like how psychic shooting attacks are subject to the rules of psychic powers and some rules of shooting. So of course psychic hoods would work. I don't see what would make you think hoods don't work.

It seems like you're trying to say it can't be a close combat attack caused by a psychic power but there's nothing that excludes the two right?

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

Don't worry about the hood thing, just don't let your opponent use it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:You realize that the next part (the part that matters) is that it prevents a model from attacking in the ensuing combat, thats not anything in the area before "attacks have been made"

And that "area" has yet to be defined. Still waiting on a page number.

its not defined, its a area created in the codex...im not arguing that it exists, im saying they happen at the same time in that magic area.

For record i have seen this in a GT in two ways...both times CF was allowed, so dosent matter when a judge tells you it hits...and HG only stops 2 attacks.

DK wrote:
If your right, that means that 3D6 thing nids do to psychic tests means nothing and it works as normal.

Okay? Broodlords don't have SitW anyway, so what's your point?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It's a close combat attack and it's cause by a psychic power. Just like how psychic shooting attacks are subject to the rules of psychic powers and some rules of shooting. So of course psychic hoods would work. I don't see what would make you think hoods don't work.

It seems like you're trying to say it can't be a close combat attack caused by a psychic power but there's nothing that excludes the two right?

Nononono. The FAQ says it is a close combat attack. It does not say its a psychic power that causes CC attacks.
Remember?

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It's a close combat attack and it's cause by a psychic power. Just like how psychic shooting attacks are subject to the rules of psychic powers and some rules of shooting. So of course psychic hoods would work. I don't see what would make you think hoods don't work.

It seems like you're trying to say it can't be a close combat attack caused by a psychic power but there's nothing that excludes the two right?

Nononono. The FAQ says it is a close combat attack. It does not say its a psychic power that causes CC attacks.
Remember?

Right. It is a CC attack that is contingent on a successful psychic test.

Now, what's the point?

puma713 wrote:

DK wrote:
If your right, that means that 3D6 thing nids do to psychic tests means nothing and it works as normal.

Okay? Broodlords don't have SitW anyway, so what's your point?

my point is that with your interpretation you are opening up about 5 other overpowered weapons vs you, your looking at just about an auto lose with trade of 15 genes dieing...all this has been argued before, the only people that really care are thos who didnt plan for it playing in tournaments and lost because of it...in a friendly game its whatever you agree on...in a GT its a judge call...and Crowe will mop up alot of genes before being killed.

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

Don't worry about the hood thing, just don't let your opponent use it. Also, who cares if it doesn't count against the number of powers he can use? What else can he do, Hammerhand? Force Weapon? I'll let you use all of them if you want. Hypnotic Gaze stopped you from attacking anyway, so the more psychic tests you want to roll for no reason, the better.

You're pretty short sighted if you think it only matters for HG.
It's either a psychic power or a close combat attack in all situations. If its the latter, as you're advocating, there are some massive implications.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

Don't worry about the hood thing, just don't let your opponent use it. Also, who cares if it doesn't count against the number of powers he can use? What else can he do, Hammerhand? Force Weapon? I'll let you use all of them if you want. Hypnotic Gaze stopped you from attacking anyway, so the more psychic tests you want to roll for no reason, the better.

You're pretty short sighted if you think it only matters for HG.
It's either a psychic power or a close combat attack in all situations. If its the latter, as you're advocating, there are some massive implications.

Why can't it be both?

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. It's a close combat attack and it's cause by a psychic power. Just like how psychic shooting attacks are subject to the rules of psychic powers and some rules of shooting. So of course psychic hoods would work. I don't see what would make you think hoods don't work.

It seems like you're trying to say it can't be a close combat attack caused by a psychic power but there's nothing that excludes the two right?

Nononono. The FAQ says it is a close combat attack. It does not say its a psychic power that causes CC attacks.
Remember?

Right. It is a CC attack that is contingent on a successful psychic test.

Now, what's the point?

So - ignoring HG for a second - that means it doesn't count against number of psychic powers per turn, it can't be hooded, no psychic defense at all really, Crowe auto rends, ...

There's some massive implications with your interpretation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

What difference would it make? The rule specifies it works on a Psychic Test.

It won't count against number of powers per turn for one.
I'd have to double check the rules for a hood, but I'm pretty sure a hood wouldn't be able to cancel it.

Don't worry about the hood thing, just don't let your opponent use it. Also, who cares if it doesn't count against the number of powers he can use? What else can he do, Hammerhand? Force Weapon? I'll let you use all of them if you want. Hypnotic Gaze stopped you from attacking anyway, so the more psychic tests you want to roll for no reason, the better.

You're pretty short sighted if you think it only matters for HG.
It's either a psychic power or a close combat attack in all situations. If its the latter, as you're advocating, there are some massive implications.

Why can't it be both?

Because the rules don't say it's both. The rules say its a close combat attack.

That and there are no rules for PCCAs.

Right. It is a CC attack that is contingent on a successful psychic test.

Now, what's the point?

OK the concept of which one goes off at which time has been a bit inane.

from the FAQ it seems really clear that it is a close combat attack. That is what the Hypnotic gaze prevents.

I still think that HG can NOT stop a whole unit from using it. Brotherhood of psykers says that they count as one psyker, as far as i know it does not nominate one model. So i see it as very hard to be in base to base with a unit that counts as 1 psyker and pick the one model that is the psyker. that last statement is very confusing. and for a good reason, HG was never intended to stop a whole unit from doing something. THOUGH if one model counts as using the power I would rule that it could be stopped if that model falls victim to HG. I see no reason the rest of the unit could strike as normal.

Honestly just don't use CF on 'stealers use hammer hand or something else. It will save you an argument and if you were in my store having a huge fight i would rule your game to be over and a draw. there is a level of caring way to much. I understand the need to clarify the rules but from an objective standpoint it seems very clear to me that the brood lord stops one model from doing anything in Close combat for one assault phase using a psykic close combat attack is not an exception.

Rigeld2 - The FAQ doesn't say CF is not a psychic power. It adds that it's a close combat attack which the rule itself already implies in the last sentence of CF anyway.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic power that cause close combat attacks.

Are you really reading the FAQ so literally that you take it to mean CF is no longer a psychic power? You can't be serious.

No, it's a psychic power that causes a wound on a 4+. The wounds count as being caused by a close combat attack.

Happyjew wrote:No, it's a psychic power that causes a wound on a 4+. The wounds count as being caused by a close combat attack.

Not according to the FAQ. According to the FAQ, Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Rigeld2 - The FAQ doesn't say CF is not a psychic power. It adds that it's a close combat attack which the rule itself already implies in the last sentence of CF anyway.
Cleansing Flame is a psychic power that cause close combat attacks.

Are you really reading the FAQ so literally that you take it to mean CF is no longer a psychic power? You can't be serious.

Read the question and answer.

If we are to take them with zero interpretation and as stated, the question does not ask if it's a psychic power, and the answer does not say its a psychic power.

Therefore it isn't, by your and pumas interpretation.

rigeld2 wrote:

Therefore it isn't, by your and pumas interpretation.

No. Don't attempt to put words into my mouth. I think that is fully capable of being a psychic power and a close combat attack. Just like Paroxysm is a Shooting attack and a psychic power. Just like Mind War is a shooting attack and a psychic power. What you mean is your understanding of my interpretation.

What you'll say next is, well there is no such thing as a PCCA. Which I think is funny, since you're more than eager to create sub-phases of phases that aren't outlined in the rulebook at all - not mentioned anywhere - but you insist that they exist, since these psychic powers must function in this "limbo". However, you'll swear by the fact that there is no PCCA. So, you want powers to function in this limbo state (that is not supported in the rules), but you won't acknowledge the existence of PCCA's (which are not supported in the rules).

Must be nice to create rules that conveniently match your argument. People that are discussing how something works and want to understand the rules, however, don't have that luxury. We have to go on what we're given. Which is simply this:

Cleansing Flame is an attack (no matter the implications. Sorry, I didn't write the FAQ, GW did).

Throughout this entire thread, I have been giving examples from the rules - simple, black and white statements. My argument hasn't changed. What I have been given in return is assumptions, fabricated rules and complete ignorance of hard-and-fast evidence. Finally, I was told "sorry, if you want to use it, you have to call it out first", resorting to playschool tactics to win an argument, knowing full-well that that sort of defense is flimsy and not at all supported by HYWPI. And you can say, "Well, we're not discussing HYWPI, we're discussing RAW." But isn't there a point where RAW gets ridiculous and HYWPI is the only method of recourse? We can't discuss Rage, because Rage is broken. So, do we just simply not discuss it? No, we discuss HYWPI.

No one is ever going to restrict their opponent from using powers entitled to them by purchasing them from their codex because they started rolling their dice first. That is a ridiculous argument from a struggling line of defense. It is grasping for straws - looking for a lifeline. Every defense has been rebutted. Every angle has been countered. Now we are simply going back and forth.

I can repeat myself as many times as you like. My argument (unlike yours) will not change.

puma713 wrote:And that "area" has yet to be defined. Still waiting on a page number.

So HG goes off at an unspecified time as well, and that unspecified time, whenever it is, is simultaneous with CF as they have similar wording on when they are used.

This still does not negate the fact that HG stops attacks in the ENSUING combat.

CF does not go off in the ensuing combat, because it goes off before hand.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:And that "area" has yet to be defined. Still waiting on a page number.

So HG goes off at an unspecified time as well, and that unspecified time, whenever it is, is simultaneous with CF as they have similar wording on when they are used.

Apparently, you're having trouble with reading comprehension. My only regret is that I cannot write this in crayon.

They are both contingent on the fact that they are used before attacks. One is an attack. One is not. Therefore, the one that is not an attack must go before the one that is, since they are both contingent on going before attacks.

As I said in my last post, I can repeat myself as many times as you like. It is not going to change my argument, nor will it make you understand any better. Unfortunately, I cannot do the thinking for you.

Thanks for the insults, I guess civility goes out the window?

As you do not seem to realize that HG only stops attacks in the ensuing combat, which is after HG is used.

It is also after CF is used, so your argument is invalid. (CF is used before the ENSUING combat...)

I figured this would be sort of open and shut.

They both go off simultaneously, Crowe gets his flame but has to forgo any attacks made in initiative. Since Hypnotic Gaze apparently says that it affects attacks in the "ensuing combat" then that would mean it doesn't affect the flame. HG affects "ensuing" (after) attacks. CF activates simultaneously with Gaze, meaning it does not "ensue" or come after HG, which means its not negated.

DeathReaper wrote: your argument is invalid.

Yeah, I heard. You keep saying that, as if that makes it true.

Deathreaper wrote:As you do not seem to realize that HG only stops attacks in the ensuing combat, which is after HG is used.

When is the "ensuing close combat"? If it is not a part of "close combat" (even though every single part of CF points to it being a part of combat, including the words "wound caused by Cleansing Flame are counted has having been caused in close combat for all purposes), then when is it?

Here, I'll help:

Move Assaulting Unts
-----Pick a unit (Do you use Cleansing Flame here? Nope, you're simply picking a unit)
-----Declare which enemy unit it is going it assault (Here? nope.)
-----Move the assaulting unit. (Surely here, if not in the close combat. Still no.)
-----Pick another unit and repeat above until units have moved. (Here? No, still no.)

Defenders React
-----The opponent picks one of his units that have been assaulted. (Maybe here? No, I would say not.)
-----The opponent moves all of the models in the unit into base contact with the enemy, or at least into position to be engaged. (Surely here, you're in position now! No, you still must do a few more things.)
-----Pick another unit and repeat until all assaulted units have moved. (Nope, not here. You're not even focused on that unit.)

Resolve Combats
-----Pick a combat. (Here? Well, maybe, if you're picking that combat. Let's check. Are you going to pick that combat?)
-----Fight close combat (Ahh, here we go. This is it right? I can go now!?!)

Yes. After you pick a combat, your next step is to Fight Close Combat. There is no other choice in between. As soon as you pick the combat, the next step is to Fight Close Combat. Anything that happens after "pick close combat" is a part of "fight close combat".

But since I know you're having trouble understanding, I'll try to continue to spell it out for you:

Okay! It's time! We've picked our combat, now its time to Fight Close Combat! BUT - before "engaged models roll to hit and to wound in Initiative order", I have something that goes before that! Cleansing Flame!"

Well, before you can cast Cleansing Flame, I have something that must go off before any attacks.

Oh? What's that?!

Hypnotic Gaze. If I pass, it will stop all attacks in the ensuing close combat.

Hey! Wait a sec! I go before the "ensuing close combat"!

No, idiot. Do you know what ensuing means? It means, "directly after." It means, "immediately succeeding." It means "as soon as this is done, whatever is afterwards is 'ensuing'." Get it?

No, I still don't get it.

Okay. Here is a dictionary definition:



Ahhhh, okay, I get it. So, Hypnotic Gaze has to go before Cleansing Flame, because Cleansing Flame is an attack, and Hypnotic Gaze goes off before any attacks.

Correct.

And if you pass Hypnotic Gaze, I cannot make any attacks in the ensuing close combat, which means, the combat right after Hypnotic Gaze.

That is correct.

And it is a part of the "close combat" because after we "pick a combat", the assault rules go directly into "fight close combat".

Bingo, you got it.






Does that help at all? Or do I need to get the puppets?






Automatically Appended Next Post:

gpfunk wrote:I figured this would be sort of open and shut.

They both go off simultaneously, Crowe gets his flame but has to forgo any attacks made in initiative. Since Hypnotic Gaze apparently says that it affects attacks in the "ensuing combat" then that would mean it doesn't affect the flame. HG affects "ensuing" (after) attacks. CF activates simultaneously with Gaze, meaning it does not "ensue" or come after HG, which means its not negated.

So, just to clarify: You can make a close combat attack, while simultaneously using something that must go before attacks?

The ensuing combat, as shown earlier, is when the initiative starts rolling and the Initiative attacks are made.

Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order, that is why HG does not have any effect on CF.

Keep up the insults though, it does nothing more that paint you in a certain light.

puma713 wrote:Well, before you can cast Cleansing Flame, I have something that must go off before any attacks.

Cleansing Flame is a Psychic power that is used at the same time as HG...

DeathReaper wrote:The ensuing combat, as shown earlier, is when the initiative starts rolling and the Initiative attacks are made.

As I said earlier, I didn't expect you to understand. If you cannot comprehend what "to ensue" means, then we cannot discuss what "ensuing" means.

DeathReaper wrote:Keep up the insults though, it does nothing more that paint you in a certain light.

If you weren't acting obtuse, I wouldn't have to treat you as if you were.

DeathReaper wrote:

puma713 wrote:Well, before you can cast Cleansing Flame, I have something that must go off before any attacks.

Cleansing Flame is a Psychic power that is used at the same time as HG...

It is also a close combat attack. But, since you're ignoring the FAQs, I don't expect you to acknowledge this.

It does not matter that it is a CC attack, as Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order, that is why HG does not have any effect on CF.

The ensuing combat is close combat attacks made in Init Order.

You are the one misinterpreting the rules.

Though you may want to adhere to Dakka's rule #1, Since I have.

DeathReaper wrote:It does not matter that it is a CC attack, as Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order, that is why HG does not have any effect on CF.

Where, between Defenders React and Fighting a Close Combat does this happen? I'm on page 34. Unless you have a different rulebook than I do. If it is not happening as a part of Fighting a Close Combat, then it must be a part of Defenders React. You see, there is nothing in between.

DeathReaper wrote:Though you may want to adhere to Dakka's rule #1, Since I have.

I am being polite.

No you're not. Please don't make personal attacks on other Dakkanauts.
Reds8n

puma713 wrote:
Apparently, you're having trouble with reading comprehension. My only regret is that I cannot write this in crayon..

Comments like this don't help.

If you've come to an impasse then it's best you just step back and agree to disagree for the moment. perhaps things will sort themselves out later.

Forget whether CF is a psychic attack, a close combat attack, or both. Just follow the written rule on how to play it. If it's a close combat attack that has rules description saying it follows the psychic power rules, we all know how to play psychic powers. That's not important.

What is important and what we can agree:
1. it is an attack
2. it happens before other "blow" attacks.

Hypnotic Gaze goes before all attacks in the ensuing combat.

Therefore they don't go at the same time, Hypnotic Gaze goes first. So Hypnotic Gaze can prevent Cleansing Flame attacks.

ND- except youre ignoring the rules, shich define precisely wyat combat is- attacks made in init order.

CF is not an attack in init order, so it is not part of thr ensuing combat that HG talks about.

The two occur at the same time, as one does not block the other and both have triggers in the same point space. To impose an ordering where none is required results in a race condition, qs has been pointed out and puma ivnores

Puma- please calm down, no need to throw insults

Nos - Cleansing Flame wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes. Codex overrides rules in this case. For the purpose of timing, the wounds count has being caused during combat.

Let's say we don't care about when each goes off and just accept that one player does HG and the other does CF.

We agree: HG prevents all attacks during combat.

Now to find common ground lets assume CF does happen at the same time.

HG prevents:
1. blows in CC
2. CF attacks/wounds that count as being caused in close combat.

Lets say CF even goes first, but the effect is counted as happening during combat. HG prevents CF if the attacks count has being caused during combat.

It may not make sense to roll - consider the effect, and then count that effect as happening later in order and then have it retroactively prevented, but this is what is RAW.

RAW says that CF wounds, after the psychic test is passed, and the wounds are created on a 4+ (no attacks have been made yet) you now allocate the wounds, once you have gotten a unit to fail a wound it becomes a unsaved wound. at this point that wound counts as it it was caused by a CCA...That is RAW.

Now the FAQ really dosent change anything since its stating from the two choices if its ranged or close...so in the end HG only stops attacks...CF is a psychic ability that causes wounds that only count as CCA wounds...not needing to attack HG does not stop CF.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Therefore it isn't, by your and pumas interpretation.

No. Don't attempt to put words into my mouth. I think that is fully capable of being a psychic power and a close combat attack. Just like Paroxysm is a Shooting attack and a psychic power. Just like Mind War is a shooting attack and a psychic power. What you mean is your understanding of my interpretation.

I'm sorry? The FAQ says it is a Close Combat attack. We are not allowed to interpret that statement and must take it as written, according to you.
Does the FAQ say it's a PCCA?
Does the FAQ say anything about it being a psychic power?

Becayse Paroxysm and Mind War say they're PSAs.

What you'll say next is, well there is no such thing as a PCCA. Which I think is funny, since you're more than eager to create sub-phases of phases that aren't outlined in the rulebook at all - not mentioned anywhere - but you insist that they exist, since these psychic powers must function in this "limbo". However, you'll swear by the fact that there is no PCCA. So, you want powers to function in this limbo state (that is not supported in the rules), but you won't acknowledge the existence of PCCA's (which are not supported in the rules).

Wow. No.
There is no such thing as a PCCA.
There are periods of time that the rules do not delineate. Such as before movement, the end of the assault phase, the beginning of the shooting phase, etc. This is one of those periods of time. I'm not making up a sub-phase any more than any power in the game.

Must be nice to create rules that conveniently match your argument.

Way to attack the person and not the argument.

Cleansing Flame is an attack (no matter the implications. Sorry, I didn't write the FAQ, GW did).

Great. I'll be sure to make sure every GK player out there knows they just got a pretty massive buff.

What I have been given in return is assumptions, fabricated rules and complete ignorance of hard-and-fast evidence.

False. Please apologize.

Finally, I was told "sorry, if you want to use it, you have to call it out first", resorting to playschool tactics to win an argument, knowing full-well that that sort of defense is flimsy and not at all supported by HYWPI.

So you go from "People that are discussing how something works and want to understand the rules" to "HYWPI". That's interesting.

And you can say, "Well, we're not discussing HYWPI, we're discussing RAW." But isn't there a point where RAW gets ridiculous and HYWPI is the only method of recourse? We can't discuss Rage, because Rage is broken. So, do we just simply not discuss it? No, we discuss HYWPI.

That's interesting - there was a very recent thread covering Rage, so obviously it can be discussed.

No one is ever going to restrict their opponent from using powers entitled to them by purchasing them from their codex because they started rolling their dice first. That is a ridiculous argument from a struggling line of defense. It is grasping for straws - looking for a lifeline. Every defense has been rebutted. Every angle has been countered. Now we are simply going back and forth.

False. You're simply ignoring every other thing I've stated.

I can repeat myself as many times as you like. My argument (unlike yours) will not change.

And mine hasn't changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It does not matter that it is a CC attack, as Combat is defined as close combat attacks made in Init Order. CF happens outside of Init Order, that is why HG does not have any effect on CF.

Where, between Defenders React and Fighting a Close Combat does this happen? I'm on page 34. Unless you have a different rulebook than I do. If it is not happening as a part of Fighting a Close Combat, then it must be a part of Defenders React. You see, there is nothing in between.

So when does HG happen?

You know if the FAQ overwrites the codex, and CF is changed to a CCA rather then a psychic ability. then a 10 man purifier squad can cast it 10 times...HG only blocking one of then in this case since it has been changed to an attack...LET THE TABLING BEGIN.

And we know the FAQ can change rules, i.e. SitW and embarked Psykers, Spre Cloud, certain PSA's not requiring a To Hit roll, etc.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Nos - Cleansing Flame wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes. Codex overrides rules in this case. For the purpose of timing, the wounds count has being caused during combat.

aaaaaand stop right there. Notice how you have switched from "attacks" to "wounds" in this discussion?

The two are nto the same. HG prevents attacks in tghe ensuing combat, it does not prevent wounds.

CF is before combat, due to the definition of combat, and ONLY any resulting wounds count as having occurred IN combat.

Again, please actually read and understand the rules carefully, and avoid conflating two such disparate terms as "attack" and "wound", as they really do cause your arguments to fail, and fail hard

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Nos - Cleansing Flame wounds count as having been caused in close combat for all purposes. Codex overrides rules in this case. For the purpose of timing, the wounds count has being caused during combat.

aaaaaand stop right there. Notice how you have switched from "attacks" to "wounds" in this discussion?

The two are nto the same. HG prevents attacks in tghe ensuing combat, it does not prevent wounds.

CF is before combat, due to the definition of combat, and ONLY any resulting wounds count as having occurred IN combat.

Again, please actually read and understand the rules carefully, and avoid conflating two such disparate terms as "attack" and "wound", as they really do cause your arguments to fail, and fail hard

I see your point. But does it make any sense that the attack happens before combat and the wounds happen during combat?

CF doesn't just say the wounds happen in combat - it says "count as having been caused". So they are caused - by the attack. I agree the wording is a bit convoluted. Bear with me. But if they are caused by the attack and count as having been caused during combat - that means the attack counts as having been caused in combat.

The second thing is the FAQ - stating CF is a close combat attack. Forget all the nonsense about it no longer being a psychic attack, ignoring psychic hoods and all of that ridiculousness. But if its a close combat attack then even at the same time HG stops CF.

Two powers going off at the same time, one committing an action and the other stopping that action - the result should be a stopped action. Only the action preceding the prevention would be successful.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Two powers going off at the same time, one committing an action and the other stopping that action - the result should be a stopped action. Only the action preceding the prevention would be successful.

Interesting statement - how do you feel about FNP vs ES?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/437941.page#4064719
(Note that there is a very close similarity here)

simultaneously means simultaneously...
I cannot retroactively stop an action that is already initiated (except for some rare cases in assault movements but this is clearly defined in the rules).

And who has the absurd idea, that cleansing flame is an "attack"? What is the definition of "attack" given by the rules? It is either a unit characteristic or a certain close combat action that is made in initiative order.

Cleansing flame is a psychic power that has a certain effect. So it is treated exactly the same as hypnotic gaze. So what happens when 2 hypnotic gaze broodlords make their hypnotic gaze-"attack" simultaneously? Do they both cancel their attacks out, which would mean, that they hadnt made them at all, which would mean that they can strike normally and use hypnotic gaze normally which results in a game crash?

-Nazdreg- wrote:And who has the absurd idea, that cleansing flame is an "attack"?

The GW FAQ.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Two powers going off at the same time, one committing an action and the other stopping that action - the result should be a stopped action. Only the action preceding the prevention would be successful.

Interesting statement - how do you feel about FNP vs ES?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/437941.page#4064719
(Note that there is a very close similarity here)

Not at all the same. FNP occurs after an unsaved wound.

Here I don't believe anyone is arguing that CF happens before HG. At best they happen at the same time. There are many indications in RAW and the FAQ that they should be considered as HG happening first.

This is how I play it:

both a basically treated at I11 so they both go at the same time....

all this arguing is like saying "My I1 chainsword gets to go before you powerfist because swords are faster!!!"