I plan on making my IG army having strong ties with the sisters of battle. I was wondering If I could use SOB soldiers as count as commissar or sergeants. Is this possible fluff wise?
Sisters do ally with guards (and back in the day even had rules for it). So it is possible fluff wise for them to be on the same battlefield as allies and working together. That being said sisters are not allowed to take command of a guard regiment but can make suggestions and inspire the troops with their faith. So I don't see anything wrong with it expect for the fact that guard can't get a 3+ armour save.
Commander Straken would be great to use for a Sister of Battle Canoness or something of the sort. Got a 3+ save, WS5, Str6 power weapon, fearless, furious charge.
I'm sure you could always add a few points on to the cost of your commander.
I think it costs around 20 to equip the whole command squad with a 4+. Perhaps you could pay 10-15 extra points for just your commander to get a 3+.
Just my view on the matter. I honestly wouldn't mind playing against an army that did so; would make a nice change.
I hope you don't mind if I expand the scope of the topic slightly; I'm curious as to what unique orders could be issued to guardsmen by this commander?
I think for the Honour of Cadia and get back to the fight would really work well for a sister commander. I don't think you would really need to make any unique orders.
SoB and Astartes aren't like Inquisitors, they can't just take command of an Imperial Guard army.
However it is common for an IG commander to willingly submit to the advice/authority of a Space Marine commander during a joint operation (this is gone into in-depth in many of the Imperial Armour Books). I imagine this could work the same way with the SoB, as they're certainly more elite then Guardsmen.
Theres always going to be jurisdictional problems when you have multiple military forces operating in the same place, and it's never really covered in the background. I mean, it's sometimes discussed, but never mentioned if there is any over-arching rules that apply. Theoretically you could have Naval commanders, IG commanders, Sororitas commanders and Astartes commanders. Who outranks who? Does a SM captain over-rule and admiral? Does Lord Militant of the IG over-rule a chapter-master?
Kaldor wrote:Theres always going to be jurisdictional problems when you have multiple military forces operating in the same place, and it's never really covered in the background. I mean, it's sometimes discussed, but never mentioned if there is any over-arching rules that apply. Theoretically you could have Naval commanders, IG commanders, Sororitas commanders and Astartes commanders. Who outranks who? Does a SM captain over-rule and admiral? Does Lord Militant of the IG over-rule a chapter-master?
You either form a war council or get an Inquisitor to be in charge.
Harriticus wrote:SoB and Astartes aren't like Inquisitors, they can't just take command of an Imperial Guard army.
However it is common for an IG commander to willingly submit to the advice/authority of a Space Marine commander during a joint operation (this is gone into in-depth in many of the Imperial Armour Books). I imagine this could work the same way with the SoB, as they're certainly more elite then Guardsmen.
Sisters? "More elite than Guardsmen"?
Hah.
They're certainly more "elite" than a conscripted tithe, but I wouldn't say they are more elite than a Guard Regiment raised outside of conscription which has been fighting for decades. They're better equipped, certainly, but equipment alone does not make one better.
A Guard regiment would not willingly submit their chain of command to the Sororitas. The Sororitas are regarded as zealous individuals--with no real grasp of tactics. They're regarded as doing exactly what Chenkov does: throwing waves of humans at the problem until it goes away.
Harriticus wrote:SoB and Astartes aren't like Inquisitors, they can't just take command of an Imperial Guard army.
However it is common for an IG commander to willingly submit to the advice/authority of a Space Marine commander during a joint operation (this is gone into in-depth in many of the Imperial Armour Books). I imagine this could work the same way with the SoB, as they're certainly more elite then Guardsmen.
Sisters? "More elite than Guardsmen"?
Hah.
They're certainly more "elite" than a conscripted tithe, but I wouldn't say they are more elite than a Guard Regiment raised outside of conscription which has been fighting for decades. They're better equipped, certainly, but equipment alone does not make one better.
A Guard regiment would not willingly submit their chain of command to the Sororitas. The Sororitas are regarded as zealous individuals--with no real grasp of tactics. They're regarded as doing exactly what Chenkov does: throwing waves of humans at the problem until it goes away.
Please ignore all comments made by Kanluwen, as he is a sister of battle hater.
Necrosis wrote:
Please ignore all comments made by Kanluwen, as he is a sister of battle hater.
I do not put the Sororitas up on a pedestal, but I am certainly no "hater". It's ridiculous that you cannot phrase an argument without couching it as an attempt to discredit the poster rather than the post.
There's a reason my statement is made as such. The examples we have of the Sororitas having full tactical command of a battlefield are nonexistent in a combined forces aspect--with a caveat present. If the Guard in question is from a world with close ties to the Ecclesiarchy, they very well might submit to the command of the Sororitas.
The difference between the Guard submitting to the Sororitas and the Astartes is a simple one.
The Sororitas are regarded as zealous madwomen by the Guard at large. They are portrayed as sacrificing themselves out of sheer stubborn pride, refusing to hand over ground when they would best be served by retreating.
The Astartes on the other hand are viewed as something else entirely. They're living demigods with the blood of the Emperor and his sons flowing through them. They are war made manifest--warriors who are constantly at war, who view their lives not as a selfish individual would but rather as currency to be spent when necessary.
Necrosis wrote:
Please ignore all comments made by Kanluwen, as he is a sister of battle hater.
I do not put the Sororitas up on a pedestal, but I am certainly no "hater". It's ridiculous that you cannot phrase an argument without couching it as an attempt to discredit the poster rather than the post.
There's a reason my statement is made as such. The examples we have of the Sororitas having full tactical command of a battlefield are nonexistent in a combined forces aspect--with a caveat present. If the Guard in question is from a world with close ties to the Ecclesiarchy, they very well might submit to the command of the Sororitas.
The difference between the Guard submitting to the Sororitas and the Astartes is a simple one.
The Sororitas are regarded as zealous madwomen by the Guard at large. They are portrayed as sacrificing themselves out of sheer stubborn pride, refusing to hand over ground when they would best be served by retreating.
The Astartes on the other hand are viewed as something else entirely. They're living demigods with the blood of the Emperor and his sons flowing through them. They are war made manifest--warriors who are constantly at war, who view their lives not as a selfish individual would but rather as currency to be spent when necessary.
Thank you for proving my point that you are a sister of battle hater. As for me not making an argument, your one to talk, you don't even back up your claims with any references.
Now, now lets not go off topic and start a whole war about this.
Necrosis wrote:
Thank you for proving my point that you are a sister of battle hater.
Er what? Because I said "they're regarded as zealous madwomen"?
They are. In every piece of background we have on them, as it stands now, they fit that profile pretty well.
As for me not making an argument, your one to talk, you don't even back up your claims with any references.
You don't seem to grasp what my statement was. I take issue with anyone whose reply to someone else is "Disregard this person because they don't like what I like!".
Anyways, you want some references?
How about "The 13th Black Crusade" sourcebook? Or "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" sourcebook as well?
In both, the Sisters do not get overall tactical control, simply because they want to remain in a fight which is completely and utterly unwinnable. In "The 13th Black Crusade", they are lauded for doing so as it allowed for other forces to retreat in an orderly fashion but in "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" the instance where they chose to make their stand resulted in nothing but the Sororitas being killed off and with that happening the other forces retreating being overrun and killed off as well.
Now, now lets not go off topic and start a whole war about this.
Then don't start a post by quoting someone and then saying "Disregard it because (I think) they hate what I like".
Moving along..(before a moderator decides to shut this thread down).
Appended Question - Why not step this up a little further then?
An IG/Sisters combination may have certain interdepartamental issues to work out - but what about a situation where the Sisters are being led by a Living Saint? Specifically a Living Saint who also happens to the be patron of the Sector where the Guardsmen come from?
It would be like the equivalent of having Solar Macharius on the ground....
Necrosis wrote:
Thank you for proving my point that you are a sister of battle hater.
Er what? Because I said "they're regarded as zealous madwomen"?
They are. In every piece of background we have on them, as it stands now, they fit that profile pretty well.
As for me not making an argument, your one to talk, you don't even back up your claims with any references.
You don't seem to grasp what my statement was. I take issue with anyone whose reply to someone else is "Disregard this person because they don't like what I like!".
Anyways, you want some references?
How about "The 13th Black Crusade" sourcebook? Or "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" sourcebook as well?
In both, the Sisters do not get overall tactical control, simply because they want to remain in a fight which is completely and utterly unwinnable. In "The 13th Black Crusade", they are lauded for doing so as it allowed for other forces to retreat in an orderly fashion but in "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" the instance where they chose to make their stand resulted in nothing but the Sororitas being killed off and with that happening the other forces retreating being overrun and killed off as well.
Now, now lets not go off topic and start a whole war about this.
Then don't start a post by quoting someone and then saying "Disregard it because (I think) they hate what I like".
And how many factions were there? Like we had almost every single Imperium faction there in both those crusades? So once again congratulations on making a point without supporting it,
As for your point of them being zealous madwomen what about the audio book red and black?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Moving along..(before a moderator decides to shut this thread down).
Appended Question - Why not step this up a little further then?
An IG/Sisters combination may have certain interdepartamental issues to work out - but what about a situation where the Sisters are being led by a Living Saint? Specifically a Living Saint who also happens to the be patron of the Sector where the Guardsmen come from?
It would be like the equivalent of having Solar Macharius on the ground....
How would you represent that in the Imperial Guard Codex?
As for your point of them being zealous madwomen what about the audio book red and black?
I think i've earned my street credentials on this board in support of the SoB (funny that esp. since i'm primarily an Ork player). But...
I need to raise an objection to attempts to fully characterize the faction as either zealous madwomen or Amazonian warriors who care.
Cause GW already does contradictory things with their portrayals of factions in terms of Codices and what gets said about them in their BL novels.
And has often declined to settle the issue one way or the other. A perfect perennial example - The Tau. Are they insidious manipulators or totally naieve do gooders?
A Canoness can well have spent decades or centuries leading troops, just as the Colonel in charge of an IG regiment or a Space Marine commander has. What one has to look at is the size of the theater and what sort of fight there will be.
If there's a huge IG presence and the SoB just happen to swing by or have a small force stationed in the area there's no reason for a Canoness to even try taking command. She'll just ask where her troops would be best deployed in support - or "suggest" that they'll be allowed to secure local churches, shrines etc.
If it's a Crusade against heretics there might be Ecclesiarchy officials providing the leadership. These too should have enough brains to just give the broad orders, then let those with military expertise figure out how to do it. Here a Canoness could well be placed in overall military command by the church, provided any marines involved are fine with it. Still more likely that a high IG officer gets to run the big show, just because so much of the force will still be IG. The SoB are there to hit the targets they're suited for, not do the grunt work everywhere.
As for personality interfering one has to remember that Space Marines also have reputations for being both headstrong and proud - there's no guarantee they'll be any quicker to retreat than SoB forces.
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Moving along..(before a moderator decides to shut this thread down).
Appended Question - Why not step this up a little further then?
An IG/Sisters combination may have certain interdepartamental issues to work out - but what about a situation where the Sisters are being led by a Living Saint? Specifically a Living Saint who also happens to the be patron of the Sector where the Guardsmen come from?
How would you represent that in the Imperial Guard Codex?
Unsure. Piggy-backing off the Sabbat World's example, this would definitely be a special situation (equivalent to a Crusade).
Ergo, one may have to generate an alternative set of rules. After all, its not everyday when a Saint shows up on your doorstep exhorting you to conquer in the name of the God-Emperor.
Melissia wrote:Also, Sabbat IIRC was not a part of the Sisters anyway, so that's not a good example.
A Living Saint, perhaps...
No she wasn't - just trying to build a bridge in the conversation.
Although speaking of bridges, i'm of the opinion a Saint would do the trick. just think about it logically for a second.
If you have a bunch of IG regiments who hold at least some nominal faith in the God-Emperor and are being led into battle by a Living Saint who much of the local religious institutions sing praises about......are you really going to grumble or say no?
I'd argue the same could be said of the Sisters if they were to encounter a non-SoB Saint.
Who tells a definitive servant of the God-Emperor "no"?
Just want to say this I just wanted to use sob miniatures instead of commissar/sergeant miniatures. I don't want there stats replacing the miniature there supposed to be. I guess fluff wise they could be there for extra inspiration to the guard. I kinda wants my IG to specliaze in fighting chaos in general. I hope I'm not going to special snowflake.
Necrosis wrote:Do you think Yarric would make a good count as a living saint for the Imperial Guard Codex?
Excellent commander. But not a Saint.
I actually think the only member of the IG (at least according to 5th edition Codex) ever granted that title was Lord Solar Macharius - and only recognized after the fact (although miraculous events did occur during his crusade into Pacificus).
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Bry648 wrote:Just want to say this I just wanted to use sob miniatures instead of commissar/sergeant miniatures. I don't want there stats replacing the miniature there supposed to be. I guess fluff wise they could be there for extra inspiration to the guard. I kinda wants my IG to specliaze in fighting chaos in general. I hope I'm not going to special snowflake.
Fighting Chaos? Hrmm.. that is...problematic.
Daemons and the things of Chaos aren't really well known to the average member of the IoM due to policy form the powers that be.
For your IG regiment to exist, it would have to be essentially an appendage of the Ordo Malleus.
Necrosis wrote:Do you think Yarric would make a good count as a living saint for the Imperial Guard Codex?
Excellent commander. But not a Saint.
I actually think the only member of the IG (at least according to 5th edition Codex) ever granted that title was Lord Solar Macharius - and only recognized after the fact (although miraculous events did occur during his crusade into Pacificus).
I think you misread what I said (or meant). I said count as, like when your playing the Imperial Guard Codex, you field your living saint use commissar yarrick rules.
Necrosis wrote:Do you think Yarric would make a good count as a living saint for the Imperial Guard Codex?
Excellent commander. But not a Saint.
I actually think the only member of the IG (at least according to 5th edition Codex) ever granted that title was Lord Solar Macharius - and only recognized after the fact (although miraculous events did occur during his crusade into Pacificus).
I think you misread what I said (or meant). I said count as, like when your playing the Imperial Guard Codex, you field your living saint use commissar yarrick rules.
OIC! Yes i did misread.
Hmmm.. Well Yarrick is a Super Special Snowflake - it could work. Might have to toss in a few Acts of Faith in though
Necrosis wrote:Do you think Yarric would make a good count as a living saint for the Imperial Guard Codex?
Excellent commander. But not a Saint.
I actually think the only member of the IG (at least according to 5th edition Codex) ever granted that title was Lord Solar Macharius - and only recognized after the fact (although miraculous events did occur during his crusade into Pacificus).
I think you misread what I said (or meant). I said count as, like when your playing the Imperial Guard Codex, you field your living saint use commissar yarrick rules.
OIC! Yes i did misread.
Hmmm.. Well Yarrick is a Super Special Snowflake - it could work. Might have to toss in a few Acts of Faith in though
Currently Saint Celestine can't perform acts of faith on her own.
Necrosis wrote:Do you think Yarric would make a good count as a living saint for the Imperial Guard Codex?
Excellent commander. But not a Saint.
I actually think the only member of the IG (at least according to 5th edition Codex) ever granted that title was Lord Solar Macharius - and only recognized after the fact (although miraculous events did occur during his crusade into Pacificus).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bry648 wrote:Just want to say this I just wanted to use sob miniatures instead of commissar/sergeant miniatures. I don't want there stats replacing the miniature there supposed to be. I guess fluff wise they could be there for extra inspiration to the guard. I kinda wants my IG to specliaze in fighting chaos in general. I hope I'm not going to special snowflake.
Fighting Chaos? Hrmm.. that is...problematic.
Daemons and the things of Chaos aren't really well known to the average member of the IoM due to policy form the powers that be.
For your IG regiment to exist, it would have to be essentially an appendage of the Ordo Malleus.
Ie: You need an Inquisitor.
I was thinking that to. But, it seems in recent fluff the Ig is aware of chaos. But the most simple explanation I can come up at the moment is have a inquisitor or ex sob inquisitor lead the army and requesition a group of SOB to help him or her out.
Consider it a suggestion - something i'd put up for if the ever get around to updating Witch Hunters.
Its mostly to bring it in line with recent portrayals of Living Saints in fiction and even in something like Dawn of War: Soulstorm.
Mind you, it runs against the grain of those insisting that in the 41st millenium the Grimdarkey Grimdarkness must require any sense of religiousity to be filtered in the utmost cynical sense.
Bry648 wrote:I was thinking that to. But, it seems in recent fluff the Ig is aware of chaos. But the most simple explanation I can come up at the moment is have a inquisitor or ex sob inquisitor lead the army and requesition a group of SOB to help him or her out.
Well in dark heresy, a sister of battle can become an Inquisitor, so if you want to have an Inquisitor who use to be a sister of battle, that is fine. It would also help explain why she has a 4+ armour save.
Ie: You need an Inquisitor.]I was thinking that to. But, it seems in recent fluff the Ig is aware of chaos. But the most simple explanation I can come up at the moment is have a inquisitor or ex sob inquisitor lead the army and requesition a group of SOB to help him or her out.
Have an Inquisitor lead the army. Your problem is solved.
You may not say no to a Living Saint out of a sense of piety.
You Will Not say no to an Inquisitor if you want keep your life.......at least for now.
Bry648 wrote:I was thinking that to. But, it seems in recent fluff the Ig is aware of chaos. But the most simple explanation I can come up at the moment is have a inquisitor or ex sob inquisitor lead the army and requesition a group of SOB to help him or her out.
Well in dark heresy, a sister of battle can become an Inquisitor, so if you want to have an Inquisitor who use to be a sister of battle, that is fine. It would also help explain why she has a 4+ armour save.
I'm not transferring the stats. Also, is it possible for guardsmen to have implants? No! not those kind of implants you were thinking of. I mean like bionics suchs as cybernetic eyes for marksmen and processor implants for coordinators.
Bry648 wrote:I was thinking that to. But, it seems in recent fluff the Ig is aware of chaos. But the most simple explanation I can come up at the moment is have a inquisitor or ex sob inquisitor lead the army and requesition a group of SOB to help him or her out.
Well in dark heresy, a sister of battle can become an Inquisitor, so if you want to have an Inquisitor who use to be a sister of battle, that is fine. It would also help explain why she has a 4+ armour save.
I'm not transferring the stats. Also, is it possible for guardsmen to have implants? No! not those kind of implants you were thinking of. I mean like bionics suchs as cybernetic eyes for marksmen and processor implants for coordinators.
Yes, but anything a bit too advanced and you'll be encroaching on the Skitarrii/Tech-Guard's turf.
Bry648 wrote:Also, is it possible for guardsmen to have implants? No! not those kind of implants you were thinking of. I mean like bionics suchs as cybernetic eyes for marksmen and processor implants for coordinators.
Sure, although the higher rank you have the better for actually getting anything. Commissar Yarrick has an orkish Power Klaw modified to work as a bionic limb and a bionic eye with a built-in laser. Straken is so extensively cybered-up that he has stats far beyond mortal men and even rips apart tanks with his bare hands. A man of the line isn't likely to get anything so shiny or powerful.
Bry648 wrote:I was thinking that to. But, it seems in recent fluff the Ig is aware of chaos. But the most simple explanation I can come up at the moment is have a inquisitor or ex sob inquisitor lead the army and requesition a group of SOB to help him or her out.
Well in dark heresy, a sister of battle can become an Inquisitor, so if you want to have an Inquisitor who use to be a sister of battle, that is fine. It would also help explain why she has a 4+ armour save.
I'm not transferring the stats. Also, is it possible for guardsmen to have implants? No! not those kind of implants you were thinking of. I mean like bionics suchs as cybernetic eyes for marksmen and processor implants for coordinators.
Yes, but anything a bit too advanced and you'll be encroaching on the Skitarrii/Tech-Guard's turf.
hmm, what do you assume would be to high tech for ig?
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:If you have a bunch of IG regiments who hold at least some nominal faith in the God-Emperor
IE almost all of them, despite what the Cain books would have you believe
LOL - well i think Cain books are just generally irreverent. The Fallible side of human (and even alien/daemonic) nature is put on display to laugh and shake our head at.
As for the religiousity of the member of the IG - i think it varies from an almost deeply pious sense of awe and wonder for the God-Emperor to something akin to well...
To paraphrase what a 40k fan/Military Serviceman once told me on his opinion on the matter:
Why do we support the God-Emperor? Is it because he's all good? Is it because he is the creator of the Universe?
No.
He's our boy in the Fight. He Pulls for Me, I'll pull for him.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bry648 wrote:
Yes, but anything a bit too advanced and you'll be encroaching on the Skitarrii/Tech-Guard's turf.
hmm, what do you assume would be to high tech for ig?
Great big general rule of thumb?
Whatever the Mechancius have, the "regular" (or perhaps average) IG unit has an inferior version. This changes of course depending on the specialization of the regiment/circumstances of the planet they originated from.
To be honest I think it would just be the quality of the implant and maybe Mechadendrites, sub dermal plating, multiple implants, and any biological implant. So as i said simpler stuff and only to people who server a very specific role such neural interlinking with vehicles, implanted vox communicators and processors to cordnaitors, and implants in the arms for heavy weapon teams.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be honest I think it would just be the quality of the implant and maybe Mechadendrites, sub dermal plating, multiple implants, and any biological implant. So as i said simpler stuff and only to people who server a very specific role such neural interlinking with vehicles, implanted vox communicators and processors to cordnaitors, and implants in the arms for heavy weapon teams. I can't Wait to start writing the fluff for my regiment.
The Living Saint poses a really good point. While no Sister of Battle would have the authority to command Imperial Guard regiments, I cannot imagine an instance where the regiment would refuse the directions of an actual living saint, at least not without damning the commander in the eyes of the rest.
A possible example might be Sabbat Matyr, in the Gaunts Ghosts series.
Another example in BL fiction where the Guard have fought alongside the SoB is in one of the Cain books, I can't remember which off the top of my head. But there were a group of Sisters that, shall we say, weren't painted in the greatest light. From the description given, the Sisters in question were holding a position when the units on their flanks had fallen back. The Sisters refused to fall back as well, despite being ordered to... Probably several times.
It was down to Cain (as usual) to save their arses whilst trying his best to preserve his own
I can't remember it exactly as it's been a while since I read them; so apologies if I've mis-remembered. But I think this instance is one that shows the Sisters are a seperate entity, rather than a unit attached at-will to Guard formations. I can see them working together on the same battlefield, but I think they should remain as entirely seperate forces.
Tibbsy wrote:Another example in BL fiction where the Guard have fought alongside the SoB is in one of the Cain books, I can't remember which off the top of my head. But there were a group of Sisters that, shall we say, weren't painted in the greatest light. From the description given, the Sisters in question were holding a position when the units on their flanks had fallen back. The Sisters refused to fall back as well, despite being ordered to... Probably several times.
Sandy Mitchel can't write sisters to save his life. This is rather well known-- he is completely incapable of depicting anyone who is religious as competent.
Sisters also cannot be ordered to do anything by the Guard as they are outside the Guard's command structure, for the same reason as the Guard cannot command Sisters, Marines or Mechanicus.
Kanluwen wrote:The Sororitas are regarded as zealous individuals--with no real grasp of tactics.
By the fans, not so much by the populace.
No Mel, by the Guardsmen who've served alongside of them.
The general populace see them as zealous enforcers of the Imperial creed. They see them as protectors of the faithful, the weak and the innocent. The general populace has more contact with the less militant Sororitas Orders, like the Hospitallers.
The Guard who have served alongside the more militant Orders are quite aware of the fact that the Sororitas accomplish quite amazing feats of battle through sheer stubbornness.
Tibbsy wrote:Another example in BL fiction where the Guard have fought alongside the SoB is in one of the Cain books, I can't remember which off the top of my head. But there were a group of Sisters that, shall we say, weren't painted in the greatest light. From the description given, the Sisters in question were holding a position when the units on their flanks had fallen back. The Sisters refused to fall back as well, despite being ordered to... Probably several times.
Sandy Mitchel can't write sisters to save his life. This is rather well known-- he is completely incapable of depicting anyone who is religious as competent.
I disagree, I find his depictions of SoB to be wonderful.
Sisters also cannot be ordered to do anything by the Guard as they are outside the Guard's command structure, for the same reason as the Guard cannot command Sisters, Marines or Mechanicus.
Surely this can't work in practice though? I mean, you can't just have a whole bunch of uncoordinated military forces blundering into each other. Surely at some level one has to trump the other, and surely some forces would be placed, temporarily, under the command of the the others? It's the only way I can imagine it working.
Melissia wrote:Also, Sabbat IIRC was not a part of the Sisters anyway, so that's not a good example.
A Living Saint, perhaps...
Sabbat was not a member of the Sororitas herself, but she was accompanied by a relatively lesser Order which sprung up around her. The Order died out, if I remember right, before the Sabbat Worlds Crusade began by defending Herodor and the Saint's remains.
Kaldor wrote:Surely this can't work in practice though? I mean, you can't just have a whole bunch of uncoordinated military forces blundering into each other. Surely at some level one has to trump the other, and surely some forces would be placed, temporarily, under the command of the the others? It's the only way I can imagine it working.
They advise eachother on what to do, and agree to a battle plan. They aren't subordinate to eachother, however-- perhaps they might place themselves at the service of a warmaster (though I've only ever heard of this specifically happening once, in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, all the other times they seem to simply be cooperating with the other forces rather than directly under their warmasters), but even then the Astartes/Sororitas/Mechanicus are quite independent compared to the Guard.
It doesn't always work, though, you are certainly right.
Kanluwen wrote:The Guard who have served alongside the more militant Orders are quite aware of the fact that the Sororitas accomplish quite amazing feats of battle through sheer stubbornness.
Yes, but Sisters are not incompetents. They are trained in combat tactics and strategy, the history of war, and so on and so forth.
The Omnibus 'Enforcer' by Matthew Farrer shows Sisters in a more disciplined light. It also shows them being manipulated by high-ranking Eclessiarchy figures (to some extent).
Kaldor wrote:Surely this can't work in practice though? I mean, you can't just have a whole bunch of uncoordinated military forces blundering into each other.
They advise eachother on what to do, and agree to a battle plan. They aren't subordinate to eachother, however-- perhaps they might place themselves at the service of a warmaster (though I've only ever heard of this specifically happening once, in the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, all the other times they seem to simply be cooperating with the other forces rather than directly under their warmasters), but even then the Astartes/Sororitas/Mechanicus are quite independent compared to the Guard.
Didn't the several battles for Armageddon have all involved place the most highly regarded Space Marine Commander in charge? As I recall Dante of the Blood Angels commanded one, and Helbrecht of the Black Templars handled the space battles in another? A politically astute senior commander wouldn't actually be ordering others about, ofc - he'd ask that they take this position and so on. And he'd do well in leaving any disciplinary matters in the hands of the force in question.
Kanluwen wrote:The Guard who have served alongside the more militant Orders are quite aware of the fact that the Sororitas accomplish quite amazing feats of battle through sheer stubbornness.
Yes, but Sisters are not incompetents. They are trained in combat tactics and strategy, the history of war, and so on and so forth.
They might be trained in the theories of war, but that does not mean they actively utilize said training.
Kanluwen wrote:The Guard who have served alongside the more militant Orders are quite aware of the fact that the Sororitas accomplish quite amazing feats of battle through sheer stubbornness.
Yes, but Sisters are not incompetents. They are trained in combat tactics and strategy, the history of war, and so on and so forth.
They might be trained in the theories of war, but that does not mean they actively utilize said training.
The same could be said about your beloved Cadians, too.
Kanluwen wrote:The Guard who have served alongside the more militant Orders are quite aware of the fact that the Sororitas accomplish quite amazing feats of battle through sheer stubbornness.
Yes, but Sisters are not incompetents. They are trained in combat tactics and strategy, the history of war, and so on and so forth.
They might be trained in the theories of war, but that does not mean they actively utilize said training.
The same could be said about your beloved Cadians, too.
In what regard?
I'm not saying "Sisters are stupid, and they deserve to die constantly!".
They simply are not, in universe, regarded by the Imperial Guard regiments of any notable renown as tactically competent. They have a different set of standards which they use to denote a "victory".
Those standards are fairly close to that of Orks, with the exception of the "We can't lose if we run away, because we're coming back for another go!" clause which is seemingly absent, as they'd rather get stuck in and go out in a glorious last stand than running away.
This results in them using a totally different set of tactics that one does not see in the majority of the Astartes Chapters or the Imperial Guard at large--where in the Astartes Chapters, each Battle-Brother is considered in a cost:benefit ratio as to whether or not the Imperium is best served by their death. The Imperial Guard regiments worth talking about utilize a similar--if less strict--ratio to consider.
Wasting lives and manpower in useless endeavors, stupid commanders ordering futile actions for political reasons, etc. Part and parcel of the guard in general, and certainly there's no evidence that Cadians are that different.
Wasting lives and manpower in useless endeavors, stupid commanders ordering futile actions for political reasons, etc. Part and parcel of the guard in general, and certainly there's no evidence that Cadians are that different.
Other than the various novels we've had on them, the background on Creed, etc?
Anyways, that still does not refute the point I made. They are deemed tactically incompetent by the Guard's standards.
Absolutely not possible, except maybe in an ad hoc situation where the immediate IG command elements on the field are dead, and there is no contact with central command.
Sororitas and the Imperial Guard are two separate entities. In fact, Sororitas leading guardsmen could probably be considered a violation of the Decree Passive, since the Ecclesiarchy is not allowed to have men under arms, and as their Chamber Militant, the Sisters would be representatives of the Ecclesiarchy.
If you want to talk Codexes SOB used to be able to induct guard as allies. So if you want a Cannoness to lead your guard do it LOL.
As for not being tactical. In the Second Edition dex we were consider an highly tactical army and were able to turn our BSS into scouts.
As for the view of IG towards SOBs. They are a guiding light, protected by the will of the god-emperor and able to manifest miraculous events do to their faith... oh and they burn heretics. Who they can judge on the spot... Not to many guardsman are going to want to be labeled as a heretic when a SOB tells them what to do especially if the emperor is telling her what to do.
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Kanluwen wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The Guard who have served alongside the more militant Orders are quite aware of the fact that the Sororitas accomplish quite amazing feats of battle through sheer stubbornness.
Yes, but Sisters are not incompetents. They are trained in combat tactics and strategy, the history of war, and so on and so forth.
They might be trained in the theories of war, but that does not mean they actively utilize said training.
Ok there is a Philosophy here that you have to understand about them. They use it all but at the same time death in the service of the emperor is considered Martyrdom. They do look to die but if that's what it takes to further the emperors agenda then that's what they will do. The "Crazies" are the Repentia who feel that they have somehow dishonored the Order and the Emperor and there only atonement is the selfless sacrifice by doing his will. Just because we have a few doesn't mean everyone is like that LOL.
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Omegus wrote:Absolutely not possible, except maybe in an ad hoc situation where the immediate IG command elements on the field are dead, and there is no contact with central command.
Sororitas and the Imperial Guard are two separate entities. In fact, Sororitas leading guardsmen could probably be considered a violation of the Decree Passive, since the Ecclesiarchy is not allowed to have men under arms, and as their Chamber Militant, the Sisters would be representatives of the Ecclesiarchy.
The loop-hole here is they would be assigned temporary status as inducted by the Ecclesiarchy, there by removing them from the IG command structure and then they would fall under the jurisdictional of the Cannoness who is representing Ecclesiarchy on a Holy Crusade.
Surely this can't work in practice though? I mean, you can't just have a whole bunch of uncoordinated military forces blundering into each other. Surely at some level one has to trump the other, and surely some forces would be placed, temporarily, under the command of the the others? It's the only way I can imagine it working.
It really wouldn't work in a more realistic setting now. Chaos can reign on a battlefield if the ground/air forces aren't coordinated well enough, and those at least even fall under the same general command structure.
GW has attempted to rectify this with the whole concept of a Warmaster though, who is given personal command of all Crusade forces by the High Lords of Terra themselves. By I believe Warmasters are fairly rare. There's also something called a War Council where the commanding representatives of every security force of the Imperium involved (IG, IN, SoB, Astartes, Titans/Skitarii, Inquisitors, etc.) have a representative and attempt to coordinate their actions during battle. In the IA books most of the time this results in a Space Marine Commander or Inquisitor de facto taking control of the forces (until the Space Marines leave the warzone after accomplishing their mission and leave the Guard to "mop up" anyway).
Actually, in most of the IA books it is a Guard Commander in overall command of the forces with the Astartes operating on their own but in a way that "best fits" how they can support the Guard operations planetside.
The Badab War was kind of an exception to the rule, as we don't actually have any real numbers for Guard participation. It was mostly an Astartes v. Astartes affair, with the Inquisition involved in "purging" the planets afterwards.
A little excerpt that might help you with your fluff
Saint Sabbat - Saint Sabbat is described as a beautiful, diminutive girl with short ebon-coloured hair and piercing green eyes. She was born to a simple shepherd on the pastoral world of Hagia in the region of the galaxy that would later become known as the Sabbat Worlds. Though humans loyal to the Imperium had established minor footholds within the region, much of this sector was quite wild and untamed, ruled by hostile xenos and the blasphemous followers of Chaos. Even those few worlds that were ostensibly loyal to the Emperor of Mankind were well outside the bounds of the Civitas Imperialis, whose main task was to guarantee the safety and assurance of any citizen of the Imperium of Mankind, wherever he or she traveled or set foot within the length and breadth of the galaxy. Little is known of her early life, save that the young girl experienced a powerful vision of the Emperor that helped inspire her to rally Mankind within this wild region of space and liberate it from those that would follow the Ruinous Powers. Her numerous achievements went on to overshadow many Imperial Commanders, whilst her teachings inspired Imperial citizens through their sheer simplicity and power, an understanding of the Imperial Creed that belied her humble origins. Saint Sabbat continued her Crusade to reclaim the Sabbat Worlds Sector for 105 years, until her eventual martyrdom on the world of Harkalon, where she suffered the Nine Holy Wounds. Her body was retrieved by the Space Marines of the White Scars Chapter and was later interred on the world of Hagia where they built the Shrinehold of Saint Sabbat. The Sector that would go on to bear her name was already considered fully incorporated within the Imperium at the time of her death. During the Sabbat Worlds Crusade tthat began anew in the 41st Millennium, the saint was said to have been reincarnated as an Esholi girl from Hagia who then led Imperial forces on the planet of Herodor and joined the Crusade's Warmaster at the front lines to inspire Imperial forces.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you want more this is one of the best SOB fluff places to go
40k wikia uses fanfiction sources. There's really nothing wrong with this-- fanfiction can be a great way to help enjoy the genre. But it's not really helpful for canon (assuming you believe in such a thing).
There's always tension any time a techpriest is involved, simply due to the fact that he or she doesn't follow the imperial cult's beliefs. But it would depend on the situation.
I don't think there would be much tenision bewteen a somewhat mellow guardsmen and a tech priest. Also, do sisters and IG have acesses to any form of orbital inserition similar to a drop pod?
I'm working on a massive campagain and fan fic. that why I'm asking so many odd questions.
Melissia wrote:40k wikia uses fanfiction sources. There's really nothing wrong with this-- fanfiction can be a great way to help enjoy the genre. But it's not really helpful for canon (assuming you believe in such a thing).
They don't really "use fanfiction sources".
They fill in the blanks using their own theories, citing specific passages and the like(usually incorrect page #'s, paragraphs, etc) to "support" said theories but because of the wiki status, people accept it at face value.
Spidey0804 wrote:The SOBs would have them around because of there vehicles and PEs. As long as they didn't say anything heretical they wouldn't be issues.
I understand why would they have them but I think a faithful sob might have banter with a tech-priest that pretty strong in his faith.
Melissia wrote:There's always tension any time a techpriest is involved, simply due to the fact that he or she doesn't follow the imperial cult's beliefs. But it would depend on the situation.
Well if Titanicus is anything to go by - i think a lot of the "scale of tension" if i might phrase it as such depends on which part of the Imperial Cult is interacting with which part of the Mechanicus.
There are rather earnest believers in the concept of the Omnissiah-Emperor, which would simply make that section of the Mechanicus "our crazy cybered cousins...who still bow to the God-Emperor in their own way."
On the other end of the bell curve, you have the Omnissiah =/= Emperor - and that's where the real friction comes in.
Incidentally i do recall a Cain novel where Ciaphas still makes his obesiance to the Omnissiah shrine - why? Because the Emperor is still the Emperor, regardless of what form he comes in.
There hasn't been much lore between the sisters and mechanicus, so it's kinda hard to say I think, but I think due to the ardent beliefs of the Sisters that there would be at least some tension.
The Machine Cult is an officially recognized and permissible branch of the Imperial Cult according to the High Lords of Terra and Ecclesiarchy.
Super zealots like SoB might be crabby about a techpriest, but then again, since their dogma also says the Machine Cult is ok, they may very well be cool with it. This isn't really something that can be generalized.
It is certainly possible for high-ranking Sisters of Battle to act as commanders of forces containing units of the Imperial Guard. Although this could be considered a violation of the Decree Passive, the Ecclesiarchy, through those Priests and Confessors installed in various Guard Commands, often manages to sway influential nobles and commanders to its side when calling for a War of Faith. The 2E Codex briefly deals with the subject, telling us that whilst the Wars of Faith must be approved by the High Lords and are technically meant to be funded and organised solely by the Ecclesiarchy, they are at times assisted by forces of the Imperial Guard or individual High Lords. It should be noted that the clerics accompanying most Guard regiments of Navy ships have a profound influence on its ships crew and commander, and many may be persuaded to assist in such a holy endeavour in order to serve their Emperor as dictated by the Church. In the vastness of space, communications are slow and often intermittent, explaining how entire Guard regiments and Navy fleets may occasionally “get lost“ to engage in some private war where it takes years until anyone notices. As we all know, the Imperium may even forget entire planets in its bureaucracy.
Nominal leadership of a War of Faith always rests with the Ecclesiarch and his appointed clerical emissary, yet in practice operational command – and thus authority over any Imperial Guard assets accompanying the crusade, almost always rests with a veteran Canoness from one of the Militant Orders, as they have the most experience in such matters.
One thing to keep in mind, however, is that the Sisters of Battle are trained to employ drastically different tactical and strategical doctrine than most Guard regiments, focusing on squads of Battle Sisters operating independently from one another to pursue a given goal as the Sisters Superior see fit. Depending on the squad's role, they will move towards the objective or support one another without much intervention from above. Naturally, the Canoness will have laid out a general battle plan and occasionally try to adapt to new situations by issueing new orders to her Sisters Superior, but in general a Sororitas force will not display the clockwork interaction displayed by many Guard regiments or Space Marine Chapters, placing high emphasis on a Sister Superior's personal assessment of a given situation. This difference to the Imperial Guard's “chessboard approach“ may prove problematic when a Canoness finds herself in charge of allied forces, but since they will likely keep their own command structure this fortunately should not prove too problematic. Another profound difference is, of course, the nature of the troops. Whilst the Imperial Guard is a resilient steamroller slowly hammering an enemy into submission, the Battle Sisters are an extremely mobile elite focusing on quick strikes against high-profile targets like noble lords, apostate Cardinals, Guard commanders or Space Marine Chapter Masters, or similarly swift punitive expeditions against mutants or supposed heretics in civilian populations. Whereas long-term engagements are the Imperial Guard's everyday business, the Battle Sisters are simply ill-equipped for this, as their gear requires much more maintenance and the fury of the Sororitas burns bright but fast, accompanied by a certain threat of exhausting their strength by acting too aggressive in the beginning of a campaign. Balancing these drastically different approaches may prove to be difficult, though there are many stories where it has been done successfully. For example, Canoness Carmina's command of the Armageddon Hive Militia regiments was described as a “masterfully coordinated tactical manoeuvre“, even moreso since she managed to anticipate the actions and effects of the uncooperative Flesh Tearers Space Marine Chapter and managed to have the Astartes drive the Orks directly into a fortified ambush prepared by her Sisters and the Militia without even having (or being able) to tell the Marines.
Sisters of Battle acting as Sergeants or “Commissars“ of individual squads, however, seems less likely out of two reasons: firstly because each Guard regiment will already have its own command structure in place and “ursurping“ it may seem inappropriate at best and may draw Inquisitorial scrutiny at worst. Secondly, the Battle Sisters are operating in squads, with each Sister Superior having “adopted“ a cadre of Sisters Militant to care for and lead in battle. To find a Sister not belonging to a squad is highly unorthodox and would likely only happen in actual combat where she was cut off from her group or everyone else is dead. In these circumstances, however, it is entirely possible that Sisters and Guardsmen will fight side by side, forming ad-hoc groups of likeminded warriors intent on driving back the enemy and avenging the deaths of their comrades. As we can read in numerous sources, the zeal of the Battle Sisters has a very inspirational effect on Guard morale.
An example from GW's old Armageddon 3 campaign website, for example, tells us that “their sheer faith in the divine Emperor has been decisive in several engagements. Battered and dispirited Guardsmen have been given new heart as the Sisters refuse to give ground under ferocious Orks assaults and within the Hives, the impassioned words of resistance spoken by the Sisterhood has steadied the resolve of entire populations.“
It should be noted, however, that members of the Sisterhood do occasionally display a commisar'ish attitude and are quite capable of attempting to police the ranks of the Imperial Guard or even the Space Marines, although not in a permanent position but rather a side-activity. At the very least, the Order of the Argent Shroud has managed to garner a certain reputation for these kinds of activities:
The following is an excerpt from a message sent by General Kurov of the Armageddon Command Guard, dated 2912999.M41:
[...]As we are all aware, the Order of the Argent Shroud are renowned for their mandate of regulating the activities of not just members of the Ecclesiarchy, but of other Imperial organisations they come into contact with as well. Whilst I appreciate their dedication and success at rooting out traitors and dissenters within our midst, the effect upon the general morale of any fighting arm during their investigations almost always depreciates as their purges continue.[...]
As such it seems clear that the presence of a force of Adepta Sororitas Battle Sisters is very much a two-edged sword for any allied troops. As long as you can point the Sisters towards the common foe, they will perform with valor and uplift the spirits of every Guardsman witnessing them do battle. Out of combat, however, one must be careful not to have the Sisters mingle too much with other fighting arms of the Imperium, lest the former may attempt to force their extreme standards of faith and purity upon those men and women who have grown up in Hive gangs, wilder clans or farmer families instead of a monastic community – with potentially disastrous results.
Still, the Adepta Sororitas enjoy a great amount of popularity, and it is my belief that any notion that the common Guardsmen would view them as crazed fanatics is driven by a misplaced comparison to modern world attitudes. As the designer's notes for the Witch Hunters Codex in WD #292 note:
“By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium they are paragons of virtue, whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind. It's all a matter of perspective, you see.“
Plus, even General Kurov's previously cited warning finishes with the words that “now [that] the Third Armageddon War has started in earnest, the Order of the Argent Shroud will be concentrating more upon defeating the Ork invaders than governing our own forces. In spite of the reputation that often precedes them in extended campaigns, the Order is a fine fighting organisation that will provide a solid back bone for the rest of our armies in the Fire Wastes.“
Disclaimer: The above opinion reflects the writer's personal interpretation of a uniform summary of official Games Workshop sources, including rulebooks, codices and issues of White Dwarf or the Citadel Magazine. Outsourced and licensed products or fan-fiction containing elements incompatible to these sources have been dismissed and ignored.
The Sisterhood, IMO, has and will on occasion take command of loyal Imperial troops whose own officers may be dead (or lack suitable zeal). Guard regiments can be equally fanatical and see a Sister, like the Astartes as a direct instrument of the Emperor's Will. This sort of unit will often have many preachers of their own who will reinforce this belief. The Sisterhood like Marines tends to maintain its own command structure and act independently, but in extremis a Sister would act as she saw best to fulfil her duties - if that meant taking command - she would do so without hesitation. However, the Sororitas are limited in numbers and like the Astartes, often seem to have difficulty understanding less single minded warriors.
With the codex sources being so limited I tend to look to the BL to see how this can work:
In Legion of the Damned - the Sisterhood stand somewhat aloof from the other Imperial forces - they have a sacred duty to perform - and that takes precedence. Elements fight side by side with the other defenders but they do not take control, leaving that task to the reluctant Astartes.
In Helsreach, the Sisterhood again defend their temples and those who shelter within them and lead other defenders by inspiration and deeds rather than as commanders.
In Duty Calls - elements of the planetary militia on Periremunda near one convent basically follow their orders and requirements - gladly - even though they not technically under their command. Veteran guardsmen from off world such as Colonel Kasteen reacts favourably - for instance in this exchange.
"Battle Sisters", Kasteen said, her voice taking on a tinge of awe.
I (Cain) nodded, " I suppose if any planetary force can be considered uncompromised by the 'stealers it would be them." I conceded. After all, they were hardly likely to pass on the taint even if they were infected, and in the atmosphere of Emperor-bothering piety in which they lived I doubted that anyone touched by the Xenos could escape detection very long.
"By the Emperors Grace" Kasteen said.
When Cannoness Eglantine speaks in the planetary briefing - her words hold considerable weight.
In regard to the OP:
Why not use the Sisters of Battle as ministorum priests? I think that in such a role they fit quite well (both fluff wise and game wise).
They shout lythanies(sp?) of hatred at the enemies while at the same time soaking themselves in blood on the battle field.
Also, this way they aren't really in command of the regiment but are able to provide some guidance to the troops.
Ehm, read what Lynata wrote about they training in squad-tactics. Also the only Sisters of Battle I can see attached to an Imperial Guard-regiment are the Sister Hospitalliers.
Beaviz81 wrote:Ehm, read what Lynata wrote about they training in squad-tactics. Also the only Sisters of Battle I can see attached to an Imperial Guard-regiment are the Sister Hospitalliers.
In which case the hospitallier model would made a great replacement for the Command Squad medic.
And, as Lynata said, it's not uncommon for sisters to group up with guardsmen in the middle of battle. I personally think the Ministorum priests is a great idea, it would be a good representation of a sister (or a couple of them) being seperated from the main force and inspiring the guardsmen they've grouped up with on to further acts of zeal and bravery. Fits perfectly, the only problem is that their power armour isn't represented at all. Perhaps wayward repentia?
Repentias are lead, and are SOB that have failed, all they know is that their duty is to die for the Emperor, and they have failed miserably if they end up alive and alone. So in my book a Repentia who somehow is alone would just charge the nearest monstrosity and not go to a squad of guardsmen who ain't likely to charge a Bloodthirster f.ex.
Then again the woman in charge of the Repentia might join a squad of guardsmen and act like their Priest, as she is likely to take charge of the whole thing without too many questions asked. I wouldn't ask 100 kilo of fanatical angry nun any questions. Especially not when she is using very painful whips.
Beaviz81 wrote:Repentias are lead, and are SOB that have failed, all they know is that their duty is to die for the Emperor, and they have failed miserably if they end up alive and alone. So in my book a Repentia who somehow is alone would just charge the nearest monstrosity and not go to a squad of guardsmen who ain't likely to charge a Bloodthirster f.ex.
I realise, though the eviscerator and poor armour save would fit perfectly. You might be able to justify it by saying the guardsmen are simply following her on their own accord, rather than her leading them (hell she might not even be aware of them), as they are inspired as she dismembers foe after foe with a passion.
And as they are independant characters, you wouldn't necessarily have to even put her in a squad, though this is an almost sure waste of points.
An Arco-Flaggy is impressive as well, I wouldn't recommend following them around. That's how I think the Repentia would be, totally frenzied. The only thing keeping them not slicing everyone nearby to pizza is the leader of that squad.
Arco-flaggelant's are a different case, they literally would not be able to tell the difference between friend or foe, or even the concept, if they were in combat-mode (I think).
Repntia sisters are zealous, but they are not jacked up like Charlie Sheen on christmas on so many combat drugs that they are absolutely crazy. In Faith and Fire it shows a Repentia taking a (somewhat sombre) moment to identify whether a crew member was a traitor or friend before dismembering him.
And the guardsmen could just be following at a 'safe' distance after all.
Still even in the works of Mitchell, only the squad-leaders talk to the outsiders, no-one else. And as previously written the only SOB that would join up with a IG regiment is a Sister Hospitallier.
Yes, but as we're talking about a battlefield situation here, where the sisters or repentia are either seperated or the sole survivors, that probably wouldn't apply.
The Sisters could be a maybe depending on their age, tactical skill and seniority, as learning on the job is the Imperium of Mankind's Operati Mundi. The Repentia is there to commit suicide in the name of the Emperor, so I'm not really supportive of that storyline, as they are only slightly less insane than the Arcos in my mind.
Kanluwen wrote:The Guard who have served alongside the more militant Orders are quite aware of the fact that the Sororitas accomplish quite amazing feats of battle through sheer stubbornness.
Yes, but Sisters are not incompetents. They are trained in combat tactics and strategy, the history of war, and so on and so forth.
They might be trained in the theories of war, but that does not mean they actively utilize said training.
The same could be said about your beloved Cadians, too.
In what regard?
I'm not saying "Sisters are stupid, and they deserve to die constantly!".
They simply are not, in universe, regarded by the Imperial Guard regiments of any notable renown as tactically competent. They have a different set of standards which they use to denote a "victory".
Those standards are fairly close to that of Orks, with the exception of the "We can't lose if we run away, because we're coming back for another go!" clause which is seemingly absent, as they'd rather get stuck in and go out in a glorious last stand than running away.
This results in them using a totally different set of tactics that one does not see in the majority of the Astartes Chapters or the Imperial Guard at large--where in the Astartes Chapters, each Battle-Brother is considered in a cost:benefit ratio as to whether or not the Imperium is best served by their death. The Imperial Guard regiments worth talking about utilize a similar--if less strict--ratio to consider.
This reminds me of some dudes we've mentioned on Dakka before...
There are too many that think of the Sisters of Battle as premenstrual nuns who all have anger-issues. What they miss are how great they are as soldiers. In my mind the SOB is the second best soldiers in the IOM.
Well I leave 'cool-headed' elite soldiers with a profound awareness of tactics as a niche for Codex Marine chapters.
SoB are much cooler to me if imagined as leading Ecclesiarchial warbands of fanatics with torches, pitchforks and the like, screaming ALL UNBELIEVERS MUST DIE!!!!
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Beaviz81 wrote:There are too many that think of the Sisters of Battle as premenstrual nuns who all have anger-issues.
Many of the Canonesses are military geniuses. There just ain't a wise idea to keep them around, as you should just point them at the nearest foe and yell: "Heretic!"
And yes they are indeed extremely elite, their faith even augments them a tad. They act swiftly and with flexibility.
I view the military establishments of the Imperium as altogether separate; hell the Navy and the Imperial Guard are effectively segregated by legislation.
I think that when it comes down to battlefield cooperation and command, they should operate as separate entities as far as possible; a commander of a Space Marine strike force need only concern himself with the small area in which he is operating and his objective; his obligation is only to inform/alert Guard forces as to his intentions and movements. I would imagine that Marines can make requests of the Guard, which they will almost certainly adhere to out of respect, but there is no formal structure for dealing with this.
As for Sisters/Imperial Guard - again, separate entities under separate command structures. I'm sure there'd be a level of mutual respect and perhaps an informal integration in a war council; with respect given to any experienced canonness, but I can't see integration beyond that.
Navy/Guard? Well we know that they have Officers of the Fleet to help coordinate supporting actions, but I don't think one can overrule the other.
Space Marines are known to take command of entire warzones. Like Dante at Armegeddon. So a skilled Cannonness shouldn't be treated less fairly, as she could take command if the situation dictates it. Again Lynata wrote an excellent piece detailing things there.
I don't know about the SOB and their ships, but they are basically divided in two.
The IG and IN had to separate as then 3 million renegade soldiers were a huge problem as they could rampage through dozens of planets due to their ships, while now they are less of a problem as they are landlocked.
Beaviz81 wrote:Space Marines are known to take command of entire warzones. Like Dante at Armegeddon. So a skilled Cannonness shouldn't be treated less fairly, as she could take command if the situation dictates it. Again Lynata wrote an excellent piece detailing things there.
There is a huge difference between the oldest living Astartes, not in a Dreadnought, and a "skilled Canoness". Dante is a living link to the glorious past of the Imperium, who has proven himself time and time again. Plus Dante was given command of all the Astartes in that warzone, not the entire warzone.
Astartes taking command is far, far, far more acceptable at any rate simply because they are known for their tactical acumen. Even Chapters like the Space Wolves, who are considered by us outside the fourth wall as frothing, bearded madmen waving swords, are quite capable when it comes to the grasp of tactics. There's a reason that Logan Grimnar was ceded overall 'command' of the Astartes forces at the Cadian Gate during the 13th Black Crusade.
Oh yeah, so you disregard that every Canonness is a veteran of hundreds of battle, and with a certain tactical acumen. Sorry for me they are just the second best, but you should probably discuss the matter more closely with Lynata and Melissia as they know far more about this than me.
Beaviz81 wrote:Oh yeah, so you disregard that every Canonness is a veteran of hundreds of battle, and with a certain tactical acumen. Sorry for me they are just the second best, but you should probably discuss the matter more closely with Lynata and Melissia as they know far more about this than me.
There's no reason to believe that your average Canonness is going to be any better a tactician than your average (competent) Imperial Guard commander. In fact an IG commander is likely to be better at generalship simply because he commands a much more numerous force on a casual basis, whereas the canonness would usually only lead the order. That and the IG commander is less likely to forget about a mission's objectives in order to kill more heretics.
Frankly, depending on the Chapter, Astarte commander's are in a different field. Centuries of experience in a command role is better than decades of experience.
Beaviz81 wrote:Oh yeah, so you disregard that every Canonness is a veteran of hundreds of battle, and with a certain tactical acumen.
"Every Canoness" is not a veteran of hundreds of battles with a "certain tactical acumen". There certainly are some who will meet those standards, but just like the fact that not every Guard Commander is Creed not every Canoness will meet the requirements you set forth.
Sorry for me they are just the second best, but you should probably discuss the matter more closely with Lynata and Melissia as they know far more about this than me.
I've had this discussion with them before, but it always comes down to us being able to recognize there is no arbitrary ranking system of "1, 2, 3". Each force has different strengths and weaknesses, and to rank them is to instill an artificial set of circumstances in which they each would perform to the 'best' of their strengths whilst ignoring their weaknesses.
It's essentially "Deadliest Warrior: 40k" and it needs to stop.
Most Guard-commanders are not incompetents. Unfortunately they get the most attention. But a SOB who is a great warrior, without the tactical acumen, usually is stuck in the bodyguard-role, or seconded to another order in order to utilize her talents as f.ex. an angry nurse.
The major Orders Militant are primarily a mobile strike force, deployed against threats to Imperial security and purity as and when the need arises. Though the Ministorum maintains no warships or regimental transports, relying on the Imperial Navy for protection from space-borne foes, each Order operates a fleet of transport craft, ranging from single-detachment troopships to high speed corvettes. In lieu of the capability to engage in full-scale fleet actions, the Sororitas' ships are engineered for maximum speed through the warp, allowing the Orders to deploy their troops anywhere in the Imperium.
The longest deployment distance, all other factors being equal, is the Eastern Fringe beyond Kar Duniash and Okassis, which the major Orders can reach in eight weeks. However the small size and purely defensive weaponry of these craft require the Sisterhood to seek assistance from the Imperial Navy in cases where large-scale deployment is required, or when troopships are likely to come under attack from hostile forces.
In an effort to force the disbanding of the transport fleets and make the Ministorum entirely reliant on the Navy for transport, the Imperial Navy has officially protested Sororitas transports carrying weapons at all. The Navy is however, unwilling to propose outlawing weaponry on all non-Navy vessels as this would increase the need for Navy vessels to protect civilian freighters to unsustainable levels.
Indeed I am presently converting a model to be a BFG Sisters transport corvette
re command - I think we all agree that there will be ocassions that in conflicts large or small, a Sister may take feel she has to take (or is even asked) command - but its not very common and controlling large scale engagements will be even more unusual as normally there will be someone better suited thus leaving the canoness to use her dedicated force more effectively as she wills. Thats not to say it ddoes not happen - there are examples previously cited in this thread. Smaller engagements where a senior sister takes control over other Imperial Guard, PDf or Militia units whose officers are dead are lack zeal makes more sense I feel?
Its a bit like many Inquisitors won't have the experience or knowledge to command armies and fleets, even if they have the power to do so.........Often I think the Sisterhood is there in small numbers to protect a item (relic etc), person or site rather fight a war.
I guess Crusades of Faith may be the big exception as they will likely be by far the most effective and experienced combatants?
The Astartes are often uncomfortable commanding non Marines for various reasons................
Kanluwen wrote:
I've had this discussion with them before, but it always comes down to us being able to recognize there is no arbitrary ranking system of "1, 2, 3". Each force has different strengths and weaknesses, and to rank them is to instill an artificial set of circumstances in which they each would perform to the 'best' of their strengths whilst ignoring their weaknesses.
It's essentially "Deadliest Warrior: 40k" and it needs to stop.
What care the Emperor for the color of the Hammer, so long as it accomplishes its goal?
Hazardous Harry wrote:In Faith and Fire it shows a Repentia taking a (somewhat sombre) moment to identify whether a crew member was a traitor or friend before dismembering him.
The PDF guy? As I recall, his fate was determined the moment the Repentia encountered him - they just took a moment to pray for his soul before chopping him apart. Quite a creepy moment there, yet exemplifying their mindset well, in my opinion!
What few people know, by the way, is that there was a sort of "Proto-Repentia" in an early issue of the Citadel Magazine, way before she even had her own miniature. Back then, she was a lone warrior seeking atonement on the field of battle without a Mistress to guide her, or even fellow Repentia to augment her righteous fury. An interesting concept, and an idea some might prefer to how they actually ended up in the Codex.
The Proto-Repentia had a fairly cool fluff text about how one saved a Guardsman's life but vanished again as quickly as she came. I can post it here after getting back home, if anyone is interested.
Personally, I agree that one or two Sisters Hospitaller are the most convenient means to represent Sororitas assistance mingling with individual squads, unless one were to employ the aforementioned "battlefield chaos" approach.
Mr Morden wrote:I think we all agree that there will be ocassions that in conflicts large or small, a Sister may take feel she has to take (or is even asked) command - but its not very common and controlling large scale engagements will be even more unusual as normally there will be someone better suited thus leaving the canoness to use her dedicated force more effectively as she wills. Thats not to say it ddoes not happen - there are examples previously cited in this thread. Smaller engagements where a senior sister takes control over other Imperial Guard, PDf or Militia units whose officers are dead are lack zeal makes more sense I feel?
Aye, that's how I think it would work. Aside from being the vague middle ground 40k fluff is so famous for, it also fits to the representations in the (studio) material thus far available. In the Third War for Armageddon, for example, Canoness Carmina was given command of some Hive Militias, yet was still subordinate to General Kurov and, of course, Commissar Yarrick who was the War Council's appointed leader.
It is my understanding that in most major conflicts that will see multiple arms of the Imperium's military forces operate alongside, a War Council will be established as a means to coordinate their efforts. Usually the Canoness will be expected to defer to its leaders, whilst at some times a Canoness - just like that certain Commissar - may even be called to lead it if her experience uniquely qualifies her for the job. Most often, though, I'd expect her to perform in this role during purely Ecclesiarchal endeavours assisted by Guard and/or Navy forces rather than true "All-Imperial" crusades.
Mr Morden wrote:Indeed I am presently converting a model to be a BFG Sisters transport corvette
Citadel Journal issue #49 - the same one that had the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force and the SoB/Ecclesiarchy special characters. Here's just the fluff text and the short story:
A member of the Sisterhood may be stripped of all rank and rights, reduced to a Sister Repentia. They are banned from Holy Service and may suffer other castigations in the form of frequent physical punishment, enforced fasts and confinement. These individuals often attach themselves to Imperial crusades, throwing themselves into the thickest of fighting in an effort to purge themselves of their sins and gain absolution - even if it is only granted on their death.
The Sister Repentia is a new troop type available to Sisters of Battle players as part of their Priestly Delegation, and to Space Marine and Imperial Guard players in the same way as Preachers.
[...]
"We were stationed at the western quadrant of the Belisarius warzone; a small piece of Emperor-forsaken hell that we'd held for three months before the rebels' main force hit.
We opened fire on them with everything we had, from laspistol to battlecannon. We must have slaughtered thousands, but they weren't even slowed. Emperor forgive me, but I know for a fact no Imperial Guardsman could have completed that charge. They were on us in minutes, and close up I could see from the expressionless look on their faces that something was seriously wrong. They fought like animals, and we soon found ourselves cut off from the company. My squad was cut down man by man; men I had known since the regiment's founding and served alongside in four campaigns. The rebels slashed with bayonets and clawed at us with bare hands. Soon, I was the last man standing and the rebels advanced towards me over the dismembered bodies of my comrades.
I raised my lasgun, but just as I was about to open fire, a figure leapt down from the barricade and threw itself at my attackers. I could make out little of the newcomer other than the remnants of what I took was Adepta Sororitas armour. The rebels surrounded her and I hesitated, unsure whether I should join the fray. Then a break in the combat appeared, and the figure stared back at me. She was a vision, holy purpose burning in her eyes. I saw the tattered remains of her battle sisters power armour, covered in penitent vows and purity seals. I knew in that instant that she bade me to make good my escape, that I may live another day in the Emperor's service.
Then the moment passed and I turned my back on the combat. One month later we retook the trench line and I sought out the scene of the attack. There I found a heap of dead rebels, but of my unknown ally, no trace."
-- Extract of the accused's confession, submitted to Commissar General Luft in the Court Marshal of Corporal Chemski, J / 4th Terran Praefects / GK983 833830
Beaviz81 wrote:They are getting more interesting by the hour for me.
Glad to hear!
There was a lot of cool stuff written about them, even if much of it is hard to find and scattered all over the place, such as various issues of White Dwarf.
But maybe you'll also like GW's old Armageddon 3 campaign website - it is still accessible via the Wayback Machine:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021005045643/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/imp_forces.html (I recommend the entries on the two Sororitas Orders as well as the Flesh Tearers Chapter and the Fire Wastes combat zone)
Looking good! What colours do you have in mind?
And lol @ that giant purity seal. Part of me thinks they'd actually do this - a thousand faithful spending their entire life working on a giant piece of scripture to be penned onto a starship's hull. Yep, sounds like 40k!
I read about the Fire Wastes, the two orders of Sororitas and the Flesh Tearers Lynata. It was a good read. I also found that that hadn't been the first time the Order of the Argent Shroud have butted heads with a Blood Angel-descendant.
They had persecuted the Angels Vermillion for unclear reasons prior to the Third war for Armageddon, and it's hinted to in your quotes where Cannonness Carmina mouths off about the instability in the BA-geneseed, due to what her precursor Cannonness Dissentia did to the Angels Vermillion.
At a personal viewpoint it was too bad Carmina didn't follow in the tracks of Dissentia, and exterminated the Flesh Tearers. But then again that's me.
