They already know that. The problem for the Tyranids is that the longer the Orks fight, the bigger and stronger they get, the more inspired their mekboyz become, the more fearsome the war the Orks can bring. Meanwhile the Tyranids have limited resources and must end the battle quickly lest they be worn down by the Orks.
Deffinetly, Orks would win, the more fighting, the more orks, the more orks, the more WAAAGH energy, and then the orks get bigger and better... it'd really terrible to think about haha plus, tyranids don't really gang up on bigger enemies like orks do
i would think that the orcs would get more kunning and learn how to smash the bugs but good... and of course the meks and doks would get new inspirations... probally some weird orc with grafted on scytals...
but the tyranids evolve as well. the swarmlord and even basic tyrants would evolove and adapt to orcish weapons, and simply devour them. would also have to consider the theater of battle... is it on a tyranid world so the orcs initiate, or are the nids invading an orc world? if the latter, then the processing and devouring of the planet would also likley consume and destroy any orc spores, effectivly nuetering the orc reproductive system.
i like the orcs more then the nids, but i would have to go with the tyranids in this one.. they have faster reproduction that dosent rely on biomass spreading, and they consume the biomass of their foes, and anything else. orcs would fight a glorious battle but i think would come up short. plus, tyranid evoultion is generally spot on reliability... orcish inventions and 'ideas' may or may not work. a mek is just as likley to blow himself and his buddies up then actually kill the tyranids with his new 'bugzappa' . so yea... orcs loose unfortunitly.
It would be a hella fight, but my money would be on the Orks. They get better, they get bigger and the bigger the fight the more Orks will come a running.
What people seem to forget is that the Nids feed on biomass. It does not have to be enemy biomass, since they can absorb any kind of it. Also the Nids adapt and absorb the most powerful characteristics of the creatures they kill (hence Genestealers and Nids with peculiar forms).
So in my book, this would be a hell of a fight but I would be seeing the Nids having slightly bigger chances to win.
Also was there not a particular Inquisitor that thought that the Orks could destroy a hivefleet and re-directed it to their homeworlds and after several years of conflicts the tide seems to turn in favor of the Nids? Unfortunately I do not remember specifics so do not take this as a point, until either I or someone else provides a quote for it.
They feed off bio mass, but 1: they have to win to feed off it and 2: the bigger and harder the fight the better and more orks you get. The more Orks you get the more things go...odd
I think you are talking about the Octanus war. In that case the Inquisitor thought the nids could take out the Orks for the IoM as the ork empire was doing some righteous ass whooping The Nids took some worlds early, one easy by numbers, the other took a very long time. Once they hit Octanus they got stuck and are still stuck. They keep eating orks but orkks keep getting stronger and bigger and now it has spilled over more or less the whole area as Orks from lightyears all around come to "The big Fight". The Nids are adapting and getting stronger, but it is unlikely they can over come the massive WAAAGH that looks to be a coming.
Hunterindarkness wrote:1: they have to win to feed off it and 2: the bigger and harder the fight the better and more orks you get. The more Orks you get the more things go...odd
On the first point you don't have to win all the battles to win a war. Since the OP's question has not specified if this is one great battle or a war I assumed that we are talking about a war. As such a full scale war would be different. Sure the Nids would lose some of the battles but they would definitely win some as well. So for the winning battles we have: % of casualties of the enemy ( we are talking about Orks = large amount of biomass) + % of own casualties + probability of new genes and strengths implemented to the swarm.
Second point. Touche.
Finally, on the example this is but a Single HiveFleet (if I recall) and the Nids already have several other HiveFleets over the universe + splinter fleets that are growing ( I am excluding any possibility of extra hivefleets that have not yet reached the galaxy as it is an unknown factor)
Only a few years later, in 997.M41 Hive Fleet Leviathan unexpectedly appeared from "below" the plane of the galaxy (on the Z axis) and attacked from two points, cutting off large portions of the galaxy from reinforcements. Just as it seemed the defenses of the Segmentum Solar and perhaps Terra itself would be tested, the Tyranids were distracted by being deflected into the star system of a powerful Ork empire. While the Orks are managing to stall the main Tyranid Hive Fleet's advance, they are likely to reemerge from these battles, victorious and stronger than ever after having absorbed potent Orkoid genetic material into their own genome pool.
This is what I was talking about. Ok I know its the wikia but I don't have the codex at hand
This is in the nids codex and they are in a stalemate, with the Octanus war. But another fleet had same problem there where to many orcs so they just lictors kill the warlord and boom orcs are fighting each other again to see who the boss man is
IF the orcs could stay unified then orcs I could see having a narrow win, but even if they did all the nids have to do is kill off a few orcs and they can have the orcs fighting them self again
The key point in the orks victory, is that the 'nids can't call for help, the fleets fight themselves, but orks will always jump in for a big fight, doesn't really matter who's involved, and since the 'nids would prove tenacious, you'd get a massive WAAAGH on whatever planet they fight on, eventually the orks would drown the 'nids in bodies. (oh irony) Fact is, Orks were designed to never really loose, they have failsafes inbred in them .___.
When an ork die, he release spores that become orks int eh future (be it snotling to a god damn nob). Let's say we think that ghazkhull sudenly gets bored with the IoM and manages to create a waaagh of even bigger proportions than what he did on armageddon... it would be interesting. The tyranids eat world to survive, so in an attrition war, the orks would win since they don,t eat everything on the world but jsut use the planets/space hulk to grow up and smash things. Tyrranids would end up lacking primary ressources if the orks manage to create a deadlock and would win after a while.
However, the hive fleet is not inteh galaxy, its out of it, so the bugs cana ttackf rom everywhere and so have the deepstrike kind of tactics avaible to them...
Just remember, all these hive fleets, even the large ones and just tiny tentacles of the actualy Tyranid race that is slowly approaching the galaxy en mass. The purpose of these fleets is to fight different foes, use different tactics and learn. They don't need to win. The hive fleets are like termagants and warriors sent out by the real mass of Tyranids getting ever closer. When they finaly arrive, they will already know all they need.
It's a rather moot discussion, since both Xenos thrive in war. Attrition is a non-issue for either side, so saying Orks/Nids outside the fight that jump in would somehow swing the favor is pointless. Orks are lookin' for a fight. The Hive Mind seeks and devours all biological life.
It'll be a massive stalemate unless something of bigger issue develops (like the Imperium getting involved, or a Warp Storm, or a Daemon Incursion).
It's a moot point. If the orks would unite, they would surely be unstoppable. But that's not very likely to happen through a waaaghboss or other planning. But i image a very epic situation where a war between nids an orks, very alike the octanus one, grows ever bigger, attracting ever more orks and by chance you either have incredibly well fed tyranid fleet. Or you would get the most gigantic waaagh ever. Which surely would destroy itself after a while, but not before wreaking havoc in that part of the galaxy.
The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever gathered all its force together and fought on one front that not a single faction in the galaxy would be able to contest it.
So at worst, the Ork 4e quote about them being unstoppable is simply overruled by newer canon. More logically, people should just stop being tools and realize that you can't take a one-liner from a codex seriously as word-of-god. All codex's are deliberately written to be biased in favor of the Codex's topical faction.
That being said, can we pretty please please stop bringing up the Ork codex quote in every topic?
The nid codex with the story of this happening says IoM stands at the side wanting both sides to destroy each other, but they know that who ever emerges the victor will be the largest threat IoM has ever seen.
I agree that when more orks turn up to fight they will probally win but they do have to get to the surface first and the nids are amazing at void wars, so that could be where the war is won or lost.
BlaxicanX wrote:The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever gathered all its force together and fought on one front that not a single faction in the galaxy would be able to contest it.
So at worst, the Ork 4e quote about them being unstoppable is simply overruled by newer canon. More logically, people should just stop being tools and realize that you can't take a one-liner from a codex seriously as word-of-god. All codex's are deliberately written to be biased in favor of the Codex's topical faction.
That being said, can we pretty please please stop bringing up the Ork codex quote in every topic?
The Ork Codex is still as official as the greyknight one until it is replaced.
BlaxicanX wrote:The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever gathered all its force together and fought on one front that not a single faction in the galaxy would be able to contest it.
So at worst, the Ork 4e quote about them being unstoppable is simply overruled by newer canon. More logically, people should just stop being tools and realize that you can't take a one-liner from a codex seriously as word-of-god. All codex's are deliberately written to be biased in favor of the Codex's topical faction.
That being said, can we pretty please please stop bringing up the Ork codex quote in every topic?
The Ork Codex is still as official as the greyknight one until it is replaced.
That's the point. Since both statements cannot be true, "official" statements of such nature should be taken less literally.
I am more inclined to believe the Ork statement as it matches the setting and history. The other comes off as IoM propaganda. Which was true at one point in history, when SM's were legion and the whole IoM was focused.
Those days are 10'000 years dead now.Orks have a better chance of uniting then humanity.
Difficult question to answer really as it would probably end with most battles / wars being a stalemate, this with the fact both races are brilliant at meat grinders you probably just be just that a pure stalemate where no one can very win the actual war or kill the other one enough to end the other for good. Also in the Ork codex doesn't it say that the imperium set out a probe ages ago and no matter where they go in space they'll meet orks, with this in mind don't you think tyranids will know what orks are already and be adapt at killing them?
Orks, despite what people think, Orks are very adaptable, the War of Dakka is the best example, the Orks keep losing to the Tau guns so they stop charging headlong into them and work their Mek Boy magic to create lots of Dakka and beat the Tau at their own game.
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oldone wrote:with this in mind don't you think tyranids will know what orks are already and be adapt at killing them?
You never get adept at killing Orks since they are so unpredictable, just when you think you have them they decide to change things completely. You get used to fighting a green tide, beating them in hand to hand and suddenly you are forced to deal with tons of dakka, you just have the armour to protect yourself and the guns to outrange them and suddenly they outmaneuver your now slow troops and vehicles with speed freaks, you start ripping off armour to deal with their speed and suddenly they rush your lightly armoured soldiers with overwhelming numbers.
I'm not going to choose a side here, as I really think either side could win. Their effective strengths are nearly identical.
I do have an issue with the way people talk about the whole 'biomass' thing, as though it makes tyranids some sort of perpetual motion machine, a "law of conservation of energy" defying perfect energy efficiency organism that loses nothing in a battle because they can just eat themselves.
When a tyranid is created, expends energy, dies, and a new one is created from the biomass, there has been a net loss is energy. Tyranids are no different from any other life form this way. Humans use plants to leech matter from the ground and store energy as usable calories; livestock to collect it, process it, and store it; and then consume it to utilize the "biomass". And when a human dies plants are again used to reclaim the "biomass" and use it again. Tyranids are special in that they have streamlined and "industrialized" this process, not in the fact that they do it.
Orks fall in the same category. A fungoid life form, they have also moved all processes into a single species. They use squigs and primitive ork fungoids to process the "biomass," and either feed on it or just grow new orks from it.
So if the Orks win a battle they utilize the biomass as new ork fungoids grow, if the Tyranids win they utilize it in their traditional way.
Really the main difference between the two is the difference between raiders and cities. The ork cycle is self perpetuating. An ork world will keep producing more orks until its star goes out. They sacrifice short term gains for long term ones.
Tyranids instead strip a planet bare. While this provides massive short term resource gains, they wont reap nearly as much out of the world total. And as with any raiding culture, they can only maintain their system by perpetuating the raiding cycle.
You see this same tradeoff in the individuals of each species. Orks benefit from experience and growth, tyranids just produce what they want.
If we assumed both forces were even it would all come down to how the initial battles turn out. If the Tyranids could win the initial battles and maintain momentum they would win, as the Orks could not match the Tyranids raiding economy. If the orks superior defensive ability and stability ever broke the Tyranids war momentum, they would lose, as they could not match the orks more stable economy.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am more inclined to believe the Ork statement as it matches the setting and history. The other comes off as IoM propaganda. Which was true at one point in history, when SM's were legion and the whole IoM was focused.
Those days are 10'000 years dead now.Orks have a better chance of uniting then humanity.
Even still... the Ork Empire fell millions of years ago.. not 10,000. All that is required to unite the entire Imperium is a way to bring back the Emperor which there are several theories as to how to do it, but nobody crazy enough to follow through with it. The Orks would need one hell of a Warboss to fully unite under the strains of an entire galaxy (mostly the Imperium) to connect every single stranded Ork colony / WAAAGH out there.
As for the OP, it would unquestionably be the Tyrannids who would win. There are literally hundreds of reasons I am dumbfounded we haven't seen been discussed.
Such as:
Spoiler:
The Orks would need to scientifically discover a way to sterilize the very planets they fought on (something they aren't particularly good at), or else the microscopic spores left behind by the Tyrannids would become parasites on the Orks, anything from burrowing tapeworms to Tryannid bacterial agents and toxins. Not only would the world itself revolt against them, it would infest the Ork race for centuries on the microscopic level and when these creatures enter the cerebral tissue of the Ork (who would be powerless to stop their slow advance through their bodies without advanced medicine, which they don't have) it would become a battle that the Hive Mind would end up winning because its effects are far stronger than the psychic link of the WAAGH. If that happened not only would the Tryannids gain control of many Orks simply because of brain bugs implanted in them separating them from the rest of Ork kind because the Hive Mind can smother it like warp energies with the Shadow of the Warp, they gain the abilities of Orks themselves - rapid spore based reproduction, the ability use technology, and apparently according to some people championing the Orks don't need any resources to survive, the ability to live without actually being alive. Can somebody please explain to me how a living creature can grow without in taking any type of fuel? I know Matt Ward didn't design the lore behind the original Orks, so there has to be a logical explanation to this conundrum. When you figure it out, consider that the Tyrannids are hands down the most efficient at doing the most basic, and yet hardest to sustain thing in the galaxy: Living.
Back on track, many people have been saying the Orks would adapt to fight the Tyrannids. True, but that's not the same as evolving, which occurs over centuries and involves hundreds if not thousands of adaptations. Not only this, the Tryannids can evolve much faster than any other known race in the galaxy, and if there's one that can do it even quicker, you can bet that'll change once the Tyrannids eat them. Which leads me to my next point, Orks can only Loot planets. Tyrannids consume them entirely. Any planet lost to the Green Tide only becomes a greater asset to the Great Devourer, but vs versa, any planet lost to the Tyrannids, is gone forever. Not only this, but the planets that are devoured give far more resources to the Tryannids and much faster than the Orks. Metals and stone all provide valuable minerals that are invaluable to the Tyrannids and are leeched, if not scoured clean along with the biomass of a fallen planet. It takes time to build, mine, refine, and then finally forge weapons and materials Orks would need to fight Tyrannids, because unlike every other force in the galaxy, the Tyrannids deny them of their greatest asset, the ability to Loot and continue the war effort, because they aren't particularly good at making their own weapons. I know someone is going to post the pic of a Mekboy riding a looted Carnefex, and apart form its virtual impossibility in the lore, the materials of the Ork's riding platform are in relatively short supply considering the other races (except for Chaos in the Eye of Terror) would either all be dead or consumed for this to happen. In short, the vast supplies of the galaxy favor the Tyrannids way more than they do the Orks. Therefore Tyrannids are far more adaptable than Orks are, and given the time constraints of pitting two enemies with virtually limitless power, it's going to be a very, very, very long war to sort out. Well beyond the time that it's going to take for the entire Tryrannid race evolving to become an aethema to the entire Ork race no matter what battlefield adaptation it can think of as it eventually runs out of things to Loot as the Tyrannids continue to destroy them and everything else.
Going back to the whole living thing I mentioned earlier. The Tyrannid race itself is geared towards the extinction of all other life. It is the dominant life form of the known universe even beyond the ambitious and formidable race that are the Orks. It achieves this by evolution, brutal efficiency, the permanent denial of others to gain resources, and even more importantly: unity of purpose. Orks strive for war. That's pretty much it. Even under one banner there will always be infighting, rivalries, brawls, and even civil wars to prove to each other their superiority. It's basically how one get's promoted to sergeant. You kill your sergeant. It's not efficient. It's not methodical. It may be effective in the 40k universe as it weeds the Ork race to be tough and strong, but against the Tyrannids it's suicide. Every available asset must be deployed at all times against the Tyrannid race or else they will steamroll over you, consume you, and then use your chummy bits to make more chummy bits, which in turn makes... yeah.
Though the Tryannids can be splintered momentarily from the Hive Mind, they will never fight against themselves as soon as a synapse creature regains it's link to the Hive Mind and is no longer feral. The Orks on the other hand would never be united long enough to fight a war that would last for millennia or more. It's just not going to happen under any circumstance, because Orks are Orks. They like killing. And if they're aren't killing Tyrannids, they're killing each other.
Alright, that's end of Portion 1. Here's the summary:
Argument portion 1, the Tyrannids win because they can evolve faster, are more united, vastly more efficient, and deny resources more effectively.
Argument portion 2 in case anyone wants to ask is: Time, Genetics, Biological Warfare, and Logistics.
I can go on...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
riplikash wrote: Really the main difference between the two is the difference between raiders and cities. The ork cycle is self perpetuating. An ork world will keep producing more orks until its star goes out. They sacrifice short term gains for long term ones.
Tyranids instead strip a planet bare. While this provides massive short term resource gains, they wont reap nearly as much out of the world total. And as with any raiding culture, they can only maintain their system by perpetuating the raiding cycle.
You see this same tradeoff in the individuals of each species. Orks benefit from experience and growth, tyranids just produce what they want.
If we assumed both forces were even it would all come down to how the initial battles turn out. If the Tyranids could win the initial battles and maintain momentum they would win, as the Orks could not match the Tyranids raiding economy. If the orks superior defensive ability and stability ever broke the Tyranids war momentum, they would lose, as they could not match the orks more stable economy.
Interesting, I like this argument considering the Orks primarily loot things as their strategy for rearmament. I think it's more accurate to say that both sides are a raiding culture. One from a desire to survive, the Tyrannids, and the other to thrive, the Orks.
Sweet I love these discussions cause I learn so much new fluff and see things in different view points.
BlaxicanX wrote:The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever gathered all its force together and fought on one front that not a single faction in the galaxy would be able to contest it.
So at worst, the Ork 4e quote about them being unstoppable is simply overruled by newer canon. More logically, people should just stop being tools and realize that you can't take a one-liner from a codex seriously as word-of-god. All codex's are deliberately written to be biased in favor of the Codex's topical faction.
That being said, can we pretty please please stop bringing up the Ork codex quote in every topic?
First off Id just like to say that without the codexs we wouldnt have any fluff to come from. Second is that the Grey Knights new codex is indeed true but no less true than the ork codex, now then as you say that if the Iom did indeed unite that they could stand their own against any FACTION. Now them they could probibly beat Thraka or the Arch-arsonist of Charadon. That is true but as you yourself have stated The Iom can stand against any FACTION now then the last time I checked the orks where not a FACTION they are a race but not a FACTION so in the end this leaves the Grey Knights codex still true and the ork 'dex true at the same time so I beleive we all can continue using the 'dex as sources
also the huge war is The Octarius war check out lexicanum for more details as they are really good at that.!!!!!!!!!!orks for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol
And if anyone is wondering... Time is working against the Orks in two ways.. Right now: The Tyrannids are already in the galaxy and steadily pushing across it. The Orks haven't yet united and it will take a considerable amount of time for them to get together and stomp on the Tyrannids effectively.
In the future: Who knows how much galaxy will actually be left for the Orks by the time they can actually get their act together and fight as a whole against the Tyrannids. Not only this, the longer the war draws on.. the more time the Tyrannids have to evolve their species to combat the Ork species.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I am more inclined to believe the Ork statement as it matches the setting and history. The other comes off as IoM propaganda. Which was true at one point in history, when SM's were legion and the whole IoM was focused.
Those days are 10'000 years dead now.Orks have a better chance of uniting then humanity.
Even still... the Ork Empire fell millions of years ago.. not 10,000. All that is required to unite the entire Imperium is a way to bring back the Emperor which there are several theories as to how to do it, but nobody crazy enough to follow through with it. The Orks would need one hell of a Warboss to fully unite under the strains of an entire galaxy (mostly the Imperium) to connect every single stranded Ork colony / WAAAGH out there.
As for the OP, it would unquestionably be the Tyrannids who would win. There are literally hundreds of reasons I am dumbfounded we haven't seen been discussed.
Such as:
Spoiler:
The Orks would need to scientifically discover a way to sterilize the very planets they fought on (something they aren't particularly good at), or else the microscopic spores left behind by the Tyrannids would become parasites on the Orks, anything from burrowing tapeworms to Tryannid bacterial agents and toxins. Not only would the world itself revolt against them, it would infest the Ork race for centuries on the microscopic level and when these creatures enter the cerebral tissue of the Ork (who would be powerless to stop their slow advance through their bodies without advanced medicine, which they don't have) it would become a battle that the Hive Mind would end up winning because its effects are far stronger than the psychic link of the WAAGH. If that happened not only would the Tryannids gain control of many Orks simply because of brain bugs implanted in them separating them from the rest of Ork kind because the Hive Mind can smother it like warp energies with the Shadow of the Warp, they gain the abilities of Orks themselves - rapid spore based reproduction, the ability use technology, and apparently according to some people championing the Orks don't need any resources to survive, the ability to live without actually being alive. Can somebody please explain to me how a living creature can grow without in taking any type of fuel? I know Matt Ward didn't design the lore behind the original Orks, so there has to be a logical explanation to this conundrum. When you figure it out, consider that the Tyrannids are hands down the most efficient at doing the most basic, and yet hardest to sustain thing in the galaxy: Living.
Back on track, many people have been saying the Orks would adapt to fight the Tyrannids. True, but that's not the same as evolving, which occurs over centuries and involves hundreds if not thousands of adaptations. Not only this, the Tryannids can evolve much faster than any other known race in the galaxy, and if there's one that can do it even quicker, you can bet that'll change once the Tyrannids eat them. Which leads me to my next point, Orks can only Loot planets. Tyrannids consume them entirely. Any planet lost to the Green Tide only becomes a greater asset to the Great Devourer, but vs versa, any planet lost to the Tyrannids, is gone forever. Not only this, but the planets that are devoured give far more resources to the Tryannids and much faster than the Orks. Metals and stone all provide valuable minerals that are invaluable to the Tyrannids and are leeched, if not scoured clean along with the biomass of a fallen planet. It takes time to build, mine, refine, and then finally forge weapons and materials Orks would need to fight Tyrannids, because unlike every other force in the galaxy, the Tyrannids deny them of their greatest asset, the ability to Loot and continue the war effort, because they aren't particularly good at making their own weapons. I know someone is going to post the pic of a Mekboy riding a looted Carnefex, and apart form its virtual impossibility in the lore, the materials of the Ork's riding platform are in relatively short supply considering the other races (except for Chaos in the Eye of Terror) would either all be dead or consumed for this to happen. In short, the vast supplies of the galaxy favor the Tyrannids way more than they do the Orks. Therefore Tyrannids are far more adaptable than Orks are, and given the time constraints of pitting two enemies with virtually limitless power, it's going to be a very, very, very long war to sort out. Well beyond the time that it's going to take for the entire Tryrannid race evolving to become an aethema to the entire Ork race no matter what battlefield adaptation it can think of as it eventually runs out of things to Loot as the Tyrannids continue to destroy them and everything else.
Going back to the whole living thing I mentioned earlier. The Tyrannid race itself is geared towards the extinction of all other life. It is the dominant life form of the known universe even beyond the ambitious and formidable race that are the Orks. It achieves this by evolution, brutal efficiency, the permanent denial of others to gain resources, and even more importantly: unity of purpose. Orks strive for war. That's pretty much it. Even under one banner there will always be infighting, rivalries, brawls, and even civil wars to prove to each other their superiority. It's basically how one get's promoted to sergeant. You kill your sergeant. It's not efficient. It's not methodical. It may be effective in the 40k universe as it weeds the Ork race to be tough and strong, but against the Tyrannids it's suicide. Every available asset must be deployed at all times against the Tyrannid race or else they will steamroll over you, consume you, and then use your chummy bits to make more chummy bits, which in turn makes... yeah.
Though the Tryannids can be splintered momentarily from the Hive Mind, they will never fight against themselves as soon as a synapse creature regains it's link to the Hive Mind and is no longer feral. The Orks on the other hand would never be united long enough to fight a war that would last for millennia or more. It's just not going to happen under any circumstance, because Orks are Orks. They like killing. And if they're aren't killing Tyrannids, they're killing each other.
Alright, that's end of Portion 1. Here's the summary:
Argument portion 1, the Tyrannids win because they can evolve faster, are more united, vastly more efficient, and deny resources more effectively.
Argument portion 2 in case anyone wants to ask is: Time, Genetics, Biological Warfare, and Logistics.
I can go on...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
riplikash wrote: Really the main difference between the two is the difference between raiders and cities. The ork cycle is self perpetuating. An ork world will keep producing more orks until its star goes out. They sacrifice short term gains for long term ones.
Tyranids instead strip a planet bare. While this provides massive short term resource gains, they wont reap nearly as much out of the world total. And as with any raiding culture, they can only maintain their system by perpetuating the raiding cycle.
You see this same tradeoff in the individuals of each species. Orks benefit from experience and growth, tyranids just produce what they want.
If we assumed both forces were even it would all come down to how the initial battles turn out. If the Tyranids could win the initial battles and maintain momentum they would win, as the Orks could not match the Tyranids raiding economy. If the orks superior defensive ability and stability ever broke the Tyranids war momentum, they would lose, as they could not match the orks more stable economy.
Interesting, I like this argument considering the Orks primarily loot things as their strategy for rearmament. I think it's more accurate to say that both sides are a raiding culture. One from a desire to survive, the Tyrannids, and the other to thrive, the Orks.
Good argument so I accept your challenge sir of giving reasons why the orks will not lose this fight if they lose at all.
First off their has never been an Ork empire that has all orkdom bowing down to one ork. There have been several massive empires that have had huge warbosses but not one single empire. So yeah that isnt that big of a deal at this moment. Next is a good challenge that I have found a safe gaurd through which the orks can protect themselves against the mind controlling parasites. That is the very spores that the orks use to reproduce. Not only do the spores reproduce when they die but it happens through their entire lives so they have a Micro shield to protect them from most micro things. Now I bet when you read this that you will say "That doesnt matter the spore things will offer no real resistance" then I humbly offer you option number two where the orks would probibly notice the other ork to be acting strangly and not feel right because he is either cut off from or muffle the waaaagh energies (just like what happens to orks who have been infected by genestealers, they dont feel orky) which means they will kill him soon to instantaneously when the parasite has taken the orks brain and has a new body. Next is the adaptability of tyranids you see since the ork race as a whole are close range oriented you would think that the hive mind would just make better armor but that would mean putting more bioresources into a unit like the gaunt. The hivemind is alot of things but being wastful is not one of them. See if you gave every creature better armor to survive better then you would be losing resources cause you would have less number of those units. Even if you just gave those better armor to the carnies it would be a wast still cause their armor is already good enough plus their are meant to take out vehicles, doesnt matter how much armor you have on if you cant even reach the target and even if you did then it wouldnt matter then cause then you wouldnt have the resouces\troops to push your advantage. Thats another one down last one I beleive. This is it even if the tyranids do take a world the orks can still live on it and use it for their reproduction purposes cause orks dont need air to live the spoors Imo can live anywhere including dead planets which then create fungus which then creats an atmosphere over time which then creates the orkoid chain of life. so yeah thats the last one and Im tired !!!
DemetriDominov wrote:
Even still... the Ork Empire fell millions of years ago.. not 10,000. All that is required to unite the entire Imperium is a way to bring back the Emperor which there are several theories as to how to do it, but nobody crazy enough to follow through with it. The Orks would need one hell of a Warboss to fully unite under the strains of an entire galaxy (mostly the Imperium) to connect every single stranded Ork colony / WAAAGH out there.
As for the OP, it would unquestionably be the Tyrannids who would win. There are literally hundreds of reasons I am dumbfounded we haven't seen been discussed.
Such as:
Spoiler:
The Orks would need to scientifically discover a way to sterilize the very planets they fought on (something they aren't particularly good at), or else the microscopic spores left behind by the Tyrannids would become parasites on the Orks, anything from burrowing tapeworms to Tryannid bacterial agents and toxins. Not only would the world itself revolt against them, it would infest the Ork race for centuries on the microscopic level and when these creatures enter the cerebral tissue of the Ork (who would be powerless to stop their slow advance through their bodies without advanced medicine, which they don't have) it would become a battle that the Hive Mind would end up winning because its effects are far stronger than the psychic link of the WAAGH. If that happened not only would the Tryannids gain control of many Orks simply because of brain bugs implanted in them separating them from the rest of Ork kind because the Hive Mind can smother it like warp energies with the Shadow of the Warp, they gain the abilities of Orks themselves - rapid spore based reproduction, the ability use technology, and apparently according to some people championing the Orks don't need any resources to survive, the ability to live without actually being alive. Can somebody please explain to me how a living creature can grow without in taking any type of fuel? I know Matt Ward didn't design the lore behind the original Orks, so there has to be a logical explanation to this conundrum. When you figure it out, consider that the Tyrannids are hands down the most efficient at doing the most basic, and yet hardest to sustain thing in the galaxy: Living.
Back on track, many people have been saying the Orks would adapt to fight the Tyrannids. True, but that's not the same as evolving, which occurs over centuries and involves hundreds if not thousands of adaptations. Not only this, the Tryannids can evolve much faster than any other known race in the galaxy, and if there's one that can do it even quicker, you can bet that'll change once the Tyrannids eat them. Which leads me to my next point, Orks can only Loot planets. Tyrannids consume them entirely. Any planet lost to the Green Tide only becomes a greater asset to the Great Devourer, but vs versa, any planet lost to the Tyrannids, is gone forever. Not only this, but the planets that are devoured give far more resources to the Tryannids and much faster than the Orks. Metals and stone all provide valuable minerals that are invaluable to the Tyrannids and are leeched, if not scoured clean along with the biomass of a fallen planet. It takes time to build, mine, refine, and then finally forge weapons and materials Orks would need to fight Tyrannids, because unlike every other force in the galaxy, the Tyrannids deny them of their greatest asset, the ability to Loot and continue the war effort, because they aren't particularly good at making their own weapons. I know someone is going to post the pic of a Mekboy riding a looted Carnefex, and apart form its virtual impossibility in the lore, the materials of the Ork's riding platform are in relatively short supply considering the other races (except for Chaos in the Eye of Terror) would either all be dead or consumed for this to happen. In short, the vast supplies of the galaxy favor the Tyrannids way more than they do the Orks. Therefore Tyrannids are far more adaptable than Orks are, and given the time constraints of pitting two enemies with virtually limitless power, it's going to be a very, very, very long war to sort out. Well beyond the time that it's going to take for the entire Tryrannid race evolving to become an aethema to the entire Ork race no matter what battlefield adaptation it can think of as it eventually runs out of things to Loot as the Tyrannids continue to destroy them and everything else.
Going back to the whole living thing I mentioned earlier. The Tyrannid race itself is geared towards the extinction of all other life. It is the dominant life form of the known universe even beyond the ambitious and formidable race that are the Orks. It achieves this by evolution, brutal efficiency, the permanent denial of others to gain resources, and even more importantly: unity of purpose. Orks strive for war. That's pretty much it. Even under one banner there will always be infighting, rivalries, brawls, and even civil wars to prove to each other their superiority. It's basically how one get's promoted to sergeant. You kill your sergeant. It's not efficient. It's not methodical. It may be effective in the 40k universe as it weeds the Ork race to be tough and strong, but against the Tyrannids it's suicide. Every available asset must be deployed at all times against the Tyrannid race or else they will steamroll over you, consume you, and then use your chummy bits to make more chummy bits, which in turn makes... yeah.
Though the Tryannids can be splintered momentarily from the Hive Mind, they will never fight against themselves as soon as a synapse creature regains it's link to the Hive Mind and is no longer feral. The Orks on the other hand would never be united long enough to fight a war that would last for millennia or more. It's just not going to happen under any circumstance, because Orks are Orks. They like killing. And if they're aren't killing Tyrannids, they're killing each other.
Alright, that's end of Portion 1. Here's the summary:
Argument portion 1, the Tyrannids win because they can evolve faster, are more united, vastly more efficient, and deny resources more effectively.
Argument portion 2 in case anyone wants to ask is: Time, Genetics, Biological Warfare, and Logistics.
I can go on...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
riplikash wrote:
Really the main difference between the two is the difference between raiders and cities. The ork cycle is self perpetuating. An ork world will keep producing more orks until its star goes out. They sacrifice short term gains for long term ones.
Tyranids instead strip a planet bare. While this provides massive short term resource gains, they wont reap nearly as much out of the world total. And as with any raiding culture, they can only maintain their system by perpetuating the raiding cycle.
You see this same tradeoff in the individuals of each species. Orks benefit from experience and growth, tyranids just produce what they want.
If we assumed both forces were even it would all come down to how the initial battles turn out. If the Tyranids could win the initial battles and maintain momentum they would win, as the Orks could not match the Tyranids raiding economy. If the orks superior defensive ability and stability ever broke the Tyranids war momentum, they would lose, as they could not match the orks more stable economy.
Interesting, I like this argument considering the Orks primarily loot things as their strategy for rearmament. I think it's more accurate to say that both sides are a raiding culture. One from a desire to survive, the Tyrannids, and the other to thrive, the Orks.
If they ever unplugged the emperor he would become a god of chaos, he would be so pissed at what the lords of terra have done in his name and making him into a deity that he would first deal with them and then be focused on the gods of chaos. I do not think that the imperium of man now or for a long while after the Emperor of man finally leaves his veggie body will they ever be able to fully unite and mobilize against the other races. I believe that the IOM will become like the Eldar, I think their high time has come and gone and their light will fade from the galaxy like the Eldar.
As for your logic on the nids winning over the Orks, I believe your logic is flawed. I am not saying there is an obvious answer, but I do believe the way Orks were originally genetically designed by the Brain Boyz and Old ones, that they are built to adapt the environment they live in to survive and thrive. As it states since Rogue Trader and 2nd ed. Wherever Orks go, fungus, Squigs and runts crop up too. It is true that lootas and death skulls do loot other armies things, but they do not kill a planet lifeless and move on, they just keep infecting other systems, so I do not believe they fit the raider category.
Good argument so I accept your challenge sir of giving reasons why the orks will not lose this fight if they lose at all.
First off their has never been an Ork empire that has all orkdom bowing down to one ork. There have been several massive empires that have had huge warbosses but not one single empire. So yeah that isnt that big of a deal at this moment. Next is a good challenge that I have found a safe gaurd through which the orks can protect themselves against the mind controlling parasites. That is the very spores that the orks use to reproduce. Not only do the spores reproduce when they die but it happens through their entire lives so they have a Micro shield to protect them from most micro things. Now I bet when you read this that you will say "That doesnt matter the spore things will offer no real resistance" then I humbly offer you option number two where the orks would probibly notice the other ork to be acting strangly and not feel right because he is either cut off from or muffle the waaaagh energies (just like what happens to orks who have been infected by genestealers, they dont feel orky) which means they will kill him soon to instantaneously when the parasite has taken the orks brain and has a new body. Next is the adaptability of tyranids you see since the ork race as a whole are close range oriented you would think that the hive mind would just make better armor but that would mean putting more bioresources into a unit like the gaunt. The hivemind is alot of things but being wastful is not one of them. See if you gave every creature better armor to survive better then you would be losing resources cause you would have less number of those units. Even if you just gave those better armor to the carnies it would be a wast still cause their armor is already good enough plus their are meant to take out vehicles, doesnt matter how much armor you have on if you cant even reach the target and even if you did then it wouldnt matter then cause then you wouldnt have the resouces\troops to push your advantage. Thats another one down last one I beleive. This is it even if the tyranids do take a world the orks can still live on it and use it for their reproduction purposes cause orks dont need air to live the spoors Imo can live anywhere including dead planets which then create fungus which then creats an atmosphere over time which then creates the orkoid chain of life. so yeah thats the last one and Im tired !!!
3 things:
1. The psychology of an Ork is valid, but my point remains unanswered, even if the Tyrannids cannot truly infest Orks to do their bidding, they can infect them, weaken them, and kill them either by their biological agents or by the hands of other Orks. A dead Ork is one less fighter against the biological machine that is the Tyrannid race. Orks cannot do this against the Tyrannids. 2. If just a single Ork is captured or converted by the Tyrannids, yes, just one, the Tyrannids can exploit the genetic material to bioengineer a perfect Tyrannid that is an "Anti - Ork", this is because of the basic genetics of asexual reproduction limits the genetic variety of the Green Horde. Biological weapons, parasites, and even virus's made in the spawning vats of the Tyrannids would lay low the Orks. A single virus would decimate an Ork population because it would be like the American Indian's fighting small pox in the 1600's. They have no natural immunity, and because the pathogen works faster than Orks evolve (from sexual reproduction) they would be slain to the last spore. 3. Alright, so Orks can grow themselves in even the harshest of conditions... what you've described happening (terraforming by Orkish growth) only means one thing. Orks are little more than a tough semi-spikey fungus, and ultimately an UNLIMITED amount of food for the Tyrannid race. If I were part of the Tyrannid conscious, it wouldn't take me very long to recognize that this genetic quirk of being able to grow more of me from seemingly just radiant energy from stars would mean that my paramount concern would be to acquire the genetic code that allows my minions foodstuff to do this without resisting it being eaten and once I do.. because it is my nature to discover how, you can bet it will spell the doom of the race I stripped the genetics from.
As for Eiluj the Farseer, (I can't figure out the multi-quote tool lol) you're right that Orks don't strip the life from planets, but they are essentially raiders, not because of necessity, but because of their desire to. In fact it's probably more accurate to describe the Orks as raiders and pirates, and the Tyrannid race as a scourge, or plague that depends on a host to survive. It's really just a definition we're arguing over, not the fact that it makes no difference in the argument that Tyrannids would still win and take the whole galaxy with them.
Gargantuan wrote:Tyranids could be almost endless or they could be just the hive fleets that are here now, nobody knows how many tyranids there are, same for the Orks
We have a good idea how bad the Ork infestation is in the galaxy.
The only sectors that do not have a heavy Ork infestation are the ones centered around the Eye of Terror. The heaviest Ork infestations (whom have enough Orks, easily, to stop a Hive Fleet in its tracks) are around the galactic core.
A dead Ork is one less fighter against the biological machine that is the Tyrannid race. Orks cannot do this against the Tyrannids.
Actually, a dead Ork means that a dozen more will pop up soon.
A dead Ork is one less fighter against the biological machine that is the Tyrannid race. Orks cannot do this against the Tyrannids.
Actually, a dead Ork means that a dozen more will pop up soon.
Which only means 12 more things to infect and make more food. By your measurement the Tyrannid race would have a food supply that would rise by a factor of twelve once it took an Ork held planet. That, or raise an infected army of Orks under the command of the Hive Mind from a single parasite.
A dead Ork is one less fighter against the biological machine that is the Tyrannid race. Orks cannot do this against the Tyrannids.
Actually, a dead Ork means that a dozen more will pop up soon.
Which only means 12 more things to infect and make more food.
If it can. The Tyranid race has limited resources, the Orks do not. The Orks also have a constantly developing and unpredictable level of technology that is in many ways superior to every other race in the galaxy-- even to the Necrontyr in some levels (such as in shielding and tractor beams).
A dead Ork is one less fighter against the biological machine that is the Tyrannid race. Orks cannot do this against the Tyrannids.
Actually, a dead Ork means that a dozen more will pop up soon.
Which only means 12 more things to infect and make more food.
If it can. The Tyranid race has limited resources, the Orks do not. The Orks also have a constantly developing and unpredictable level of technology that is in many ways superior to every other race in the galaxy-- even to the Necrontyr in some levels (such as in shielding and tractor beams).
The Ork's technology is also as unpredictable as it is volatile. And as you said, there is a known number of Orks in the galaxy. As far as Orks resources are concerned, they are just as limited, if not more limited than the Tyrannids, because they are known. For all we know the Tyrannid race may be stemming from another galaxy or even several thousand, and the only resources they do not have, are those they have not yet taken from other races.
A dead Ork is one less fighter against the biological machine that is the Tyrannid race. Orks cannot do this against the Tyrannids.
Actually, a dead Ork means that a dozen more will pop up soon.
Which only means 12 more things to infect and make more food.
If it can. The Tyranid race has limited resources, the Orks do not. The Orks also have a constantly developing and unpredictable level of technology that is in many ways superior to every other race in the galaxy-- even to the Necrontyr in some levels (such as in shielding and tractor beams).
The Ork's technology is also as unpredictable as it is volatile.
DemetriDominov wrote:And as you said, there is a known number of Orks in the galaxy.
Which is constantly increasing. Also? Orks exist outside of this galaxy, as probes sent beyond the galaxy have constantly run in to Ork signals.
DemetriDominov wrote: As far as Orks resources are concerned, they are just as limited
Orks can spawn on asteroids. You underestimate them.
DemetriDominov wrote:For all we know the Tyrannid race may be stemming from another galaxy or even several thousand, and the only resources they do not have, are those they have no yet taken from other races.
Fanboyish speculation doesn't make for a good argument. For all we know, the Tyranids are just running here because everywhere else the Ork infestation is so large that they cannot overcome them.
*Yes orks might kill themselves there by starving the parasites, but in a few short months the ork population will not only return to normal but will even skyrocket, because ork spoores come out of a ork bodie the most when they die so killing themselves is helping the population grow not hindering it at ALL!!!!!!!!
*2To create a virus or a parasite do to that is gonna take sometime that ultimatly 1 take up to much bio-resources or 2 might have that chance of completly messing up the orks genetic structure where they became dangerous for the tyranids to eat which is something the hive mind doesnt want to happen at all (yngaarl genestealers)also lets not forget bout the pain boyz remeber for 600 teeth per minute can cure any disease.
*3Yes this has come up many times in discussions and is still fought over today too. but as for me I say this, if the hivemind did that that would be a bad thing for the tyranids cause 1that would make them a colonised race which would leave all the gaunts without synapse(which they could then get picked off till the warriors come which could take a while) 2 then the tyranids would lose their greates asset EVOLUTION. They evolve by being born from the norn queens, If they became fungus reproduced then they would lose their abilities to evolve like the way they do.(there is a tyranid unit that uses the ork genome for a weapn the name of the unit is the biovore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: [quote=Melissia For all we know, the Tyranids are just running here because everywhere else the Ork infestation is so large that they cannot overcome them.
DemetriDominov wrote:And as you said, there is a known number of Orks in the galaxy.
Melissia wrote:Which is constantly increasing. Also? Orks exist outside of this galaxy, as probes sent beyond the galaxy have constantly run in to Ork signals.
2 things for that. 1. They could be just like the probes themselves... rocketed out into the universe for no apparent reason than simply to see what's out there. 2. The exact same thing could be said about the Tyrannids, only they don't give off signals, they smother them, so unless you're looking for them you would never find them.
Melissia wrote:Orks can spawn on asteroids. You underestimate them.
Do I? There isn't a place Tyrannids can't spawn either, given enough time they could probably live in lava. I'd like to see an Ork try that.
Melissia wrote:Fanboyish speculation doesn't make for a good argument. For all we know, the Tyranids are just running here because everywhere else the Ork infestation is so large that they cannot overcome them.
I'm not sure if that's reverse pyschology or a blunder on your part. There has been speculation for both the Tyrannids running from something (sentient things, starvation, ect.), but there has also been solid evidence that Imperial scholars suspect that other galaxies have been consumed by the Tyrannids. Responding with a compensatory remark as bold as Orks being the driving force behind the Tyrannids invading this galaxy seems unsupported and a falsification of a Orkish fanboy.
DemetriDominov wrote:And as you said, there is a known number of Orks in the galaxy.
Melissia wrote:Which is constantly increasing. Also? Orks exist outside of this galaxy, as probes sent beyond the galaxy have constantly run in to Ork signals.
2 things for that. 1. They could be just like the probes themselves... rocketed out into the universe for no apparent reason than simply to see what's out there. 2. The exact same thing could be said about the Tyrannids, only they don't give off signals, they smother them, so unless you're looking for them you would never find them.
Melissia wrote:Orks can spawn on asteroids. You underestimate them.
Do I? There isn't a place Tyrannids can't spawn either, given enough time they could probably live in lava. I'd like to see an Ork try that.
Melissia wrote:Fanboyish speculation doesn't make for a good argument. For all we know, the Tyranids are just running here because everywhere else the Ork infestation is so large that they cannot overcome them.
I'm not sure if that's reverse pyschology or a blunder on your part. There has been speculation for both the Tyrannids running from something (sentient things, starvation, ect.), but there has also been solid evidence that Imperial scholars suspect that other galaxies have been consumed by the Tyrannids. Responding with a compensatory remark as bold as Orks being the driving force behind the Tyrannids invading this galaxy seems unsupported and a falsification of a Orkish fanboy.
Got nothin for the probes part as for the spawnin everywhere that isnt nids first off because they have to be spawned from norn queens for them to evolve or upgrade or whatever you want to call it\ also just have to wait for the lava to cool to stone give it a couple of days and walla fungus!!!!!!! As for runnin from orks, that really isnt that fanboyish since the only races that we know of that are out of this galaxy are orks\nids.
*3Yes this has come up many times in discussions and is still fought over today too. but as for me I say this, if the hivemind did that that would be a bad thing for the tyranids cause 1that would make them a colonised race which would leave all the gaunts without synapse(which they could then get picked off till the warriors come which could take a while) 2 then the tyranids would lose their greates asset EVOLUTION. They evolve by being born from the norn queens, If they became fungus reproduced then they would lose their abilities to evolve like the way they do.(there is a tyranid unit that uses the ork genome for a weapn the name of the unit is the biovore.
Who said the Ork genome would be used for creating a new Tyrannid? Oh yes.. I did. I also said in the massive text that you missed reading that when the Tyrannids figure out how to create an Orkish Tyrannid, it would be an unlimited food source, that as Melissa has now vehemently pointed out, can grow anywhere. Which means the Tyrannids could evolve a new food that would essentially be the Tyrannid's new and greatest host. This is completely plausable since it seems that the Tyrannids have already been tampering with the Ork genome and when it unlocks this untapped virtually limitless food supply... for the sixth time on this thread and I cannot stress it enough, why the hell has no one even attempted to challenge me on this issue?! - The Tyrannids will own the Orks.
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willhman wrote:Got nothin for the probes part as for the spawnin everywhere that isnt nids first off because they have to be spawned from norn queens for them to evolve or upgrade or whatever you want to call it\ also just have to wait for the lava to cool to stone give it a couple of days and walla fungus!!!!!!! As for runnin from orks, that really isnt that fanboyish since the only races that we know of that are out of this galaxy are orks\nids.
Then what of a norn queen with the genetic makeup to live in a molten planet like Vulcan? Orks are basically screwed there...
"That we know of."
Truly, we are an ignorant people to believe that the only possible way that the Tyrannids are here... are because of the Orks over all of the infinite possibilities of the universe, there is no other explaination than, "Oh, Orks and Tyrannids... must be the Orks then." What if the Tyrannids just ate all the Orks in the other galaxy they came from lol?
Do I? There isn't a place Tyrannids can't spawn either, given enough time they could probably live in lava. I'd like to see an Ork try that.
Tyranids cannot "spawn anywhere". They can only consume the resources of other biologicals and use that material to form new beings. Orks don't have that limitation.
Do I? There isn't a place Tyrannids can't spawn either, given enough time they could probably live in lava. I'd like to see an Ork try that.
Tyranids cannot "spawn anywhere". They can only consume the resources of other biologicals and use that material to form new beings. Orks don't have that limitation.
They can spawn anywhere their norn queens are. The just don't spawn as liberally as Orks do, that's really the only difference.
Do I? There isn't a place Tyrannids can't spawn either, given enough time they could probably live in lava. I'd like to see an Ork try that.
Tyranids cannot "spawn anywhere". They can only consume the resources of other biologicals and use that material to form new beings. Orks don't have that limitation.
They can spawn anywhere. The just don't spawn as liberally as Orks do.
And they require biological resources to create new Tyranids, a limitation that Orks have shown that they do not possess.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and queens are kinda connected to their bioships and are really rare they would be a wast of resources to do that
One more thing why would the tyranids wast resources on fungal food that takes up alot of energy to create the orkoids get the nutrients they need from the planetoids they are spawned on but since tyranids are constantly moving they dont have the time to wait for their food to grow so waste of time and resources!!!!!
Melissia wrote: They require biological resources to create new Tyranids, a limitation that Orks have shown that they do not possess.
K I have a question then. All life must be sustained from something. What are Orks sustained by?
First spawns the fungus, then spawns the squigs who feed on the fungus, then spawns the snotlings who care for the squigs, then spawn the gretchin who build in preparation for the Ork Boyz, who spawn last with a full blown Orkoid ecosystem for them-- fungus and squigs to eat, snotlings and gretchin to boss around, and other Boyz to fight with.
Furthermore, in many instances Orks take the laws of physics to be something more of a suggestion.
Melissia wrote:
They require biological resources to create new Tyranids, a limitation that Orks have shown that they do not possess.
K I have a question then. All life must be sustained from something. What are Orks sustained by?
First spawns the fungus, then spawns the squigs who feed on the fungus, then spawns the snotlings who care for the squigs, then spawn the gretchin who build in preparation for the Ork Boyz, who spawn last with a full blown Orkoid ecosystem for them-- fungus and squigs to eat, snotlings and gretchin to boss around, and other Boyz to fight with.
Furthermore, in many instances Orks take the laws of physics to be something more of a suggestion.
I <3 you Melissia. I can argue with you all day.
Again, all you've proven is that Orks are really just an unlimited source of biomass ready to be harvested by the Tyrannids. Physics notwithstanding, to the Tyrannids, the Orks are merely their perpetual energy machine. If they can grow anywhere, there is nowhere the Tyrannids will not find a way to harvest them.
Melissia wrote: They require biological resources to create new Tyranids, a limitation that Orks have shown that they do not possess.
K I have a question then. All life must be sustained from something. What are Orks sustained by?
First spawns the fungus, then spawns the squigs who feed on the fungus, then spawns the snotlings who care for the squigs, then spawn the gretchin who build in preparation for the Ork Boyz, who spawn last with a full blown Orkoid ecosystem for them-- fungus and squigs to eat, snotlings and gretchin to boss around, and other Boyz to fight with.
Furthermore, in many instances Orks take the laws of physics to be something more of a suggestion.
I <3 you Melissia. I can argue with you all day.
Again, all you've proven is that Orks are really just an unlimited source of biomass ready to be harvested by the Tyrannids. Physics notwithstanding, to the Tyrannids, the Orks are merely their perpetual energy machine. If they can grow anywhere, there is nowhere the Tyrannids will not find a way to harvest them.
... IF the Tyranids can beat them, which they have not been able to so far.
Sure, they've overwhelmed minor worlds which did not have a strong Ork presence, but in the case of major Ork worlds, the Tyranids have been stalled every time, and sometimes even pushed back..
That may not be necessarily be because of the Orks. As you said, the major Ork systems are near the center of the galaxy. The Tyrannids are mostly still in the eastern fringes and have to pass the through much of the Imperium and entire complex wars not just involving the Orks who have continuously failed to exterminate humanity over the past 40,000 years.
Wait, what? Where? It's not in the rulebook, which I might add on page 166 states, "Behind the Hive Fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed."
I wasn't being a fanboy! I was actually right, the Tyrannids really aren't to be underestimated.
Oh and we forgot to mention about the whole unity thing.. What happens when the Tyrannids kill the Warboss? The WAAGH falls apart and the Orks again splits into anarchic factions.
DemetriDominov wrote:Oh and we forgot to mention about the whole unity thing.. What happens when the Tyrannids kill the Warboss? The WAAGH falls apart and the Orks again splits into anarchic factions.
Another one comes in to play. The Orks gladly unite against non-Orks.
It's much like the Tyranids quickly try to replace any lost Synapse creatures, except each Ork CAN think for themselves, unlike each Tyranid. Every Ork has the potential to be the next warboss.
Melissia wrote:Another one comes in to play. The Orks gladly unite against non-Orks.
It's much like the Tyranids quickly try to replace any lost Synapse creatures, except each Ork CAN think for themselves, unlike each Tyranid. Every Ork has the potential to be the next warboss.
The only problem is that Orks are as likely to fight each other as they are to fight the greater enemy, and that would spell the doom of whole systems when under Tyrannid attack. Tyrannids can also think for themselves when separated from the Hive Mind. They are instinctual beasts that become as unpredictable as the Orks when their link to the greater mind has been severed.
Has anyone considered that a conflict of this magnitude with the possibility of both armies losing control of large portions of their forces could simply not have a clear victor?
The orks and nids would simply create an unending meat grinder that could continue for decades, maybe centuries.
When dealing with a conflict like that there are simply too many variables - both races have a clear chance of winning
razor5647 wrote:Has anyone considered that a conflict of this magnitude with the possibility of both armies losing control of large portions of their forces could simply not have a clear victor?
The orks and nids would simply create an unending meat grinder that could continue for decades, maybe centuries.
When dealing with a conflict like that there are simply too many variables - both races have a clear chance of winning
I've said that this conflict would last millennia because it would. It has to, to have a definitive end. But it would under no circumstance be a stalemate. It could take a hundred thousand years but one creature would eventually devour or destroy the other. Then the more important question: under the control of one all powerful race, what would the daemons of chaos do? I mean really I see your point, after everything is said and done, what difference does it make if Chaos isn't destroyed, there's really no way of destroying it without the Imperium and the Emperor, and so long as it exists, Daemons will prevail over everything else regardless of how long it takes the victor to emerge.
DemetriDominov wrote: I'm not sure if that's reverse pyschology or a blunder on your part. There has been speculation for both the Tyrannids running from something (sentient things, starvation, ect.), but there has also been solid evidence that Imperial scholars suspect that other galaxies have been consumed by the Tyrannids. Responding with a compensatory remark as bold as Orks being the driving force behind the Tyrannids invading this galaxy seems unsupported and a falsification of a Orkish fanboy.
DemetriDominov wrote: I'm not sure if that's reverse pyschology or a blunder on your part. There has been speculation for both the Tyrannids running from something (sentient things, starvation, ect.), but there has also been solid evidence that Imperial scholars suspect that other galaxies have been consumed by the Tyrannids. Responding with a compensatory remark as bold as Orks being the driving force behind the Tyrannids invading this galaxy seems unsupported and a falsification of a Orkish fanboy.
Solid evidence from what sources? lol
How bout the Rulebook. Page 166.
"Fire topedoes!",
BLAM!
"Another Eldar hull breached! may he go down with his craftworld sir, maybe in death we won't have to requote things!"
"They only come back as wraithlords sire!"
"Damnit, load the tubes again!"
Melissia wrote:Another one comes in to play. The Orks gladly unite against non-Orks.
It's much like the Tyranids quickly try to replace any lost Synapse creatures, except each Ork CAN think for themselves, unlike each Tyranid. Every Ork has the potential to be the next warboss.
The only problem is that Orks are as likely to fight each other as they are to fight the greater enemy, and that would spell the doom of whole systems when under Tyrannid attack. Tyrannids can also think for themselves when separated from the Hive Mind. They are instinctual beasts that become as unpredictable as the Orks when their link to the greater mind has been severed.
They only fight each other when there is no else around to fight...
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DemetriDominov wrote:
Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
DemetriDominov wrote: I'm not sure if that's reverse pyschology or a blunder on your part. There has been speculation for both the Tyrannids running from something (sentient things, starvation, ect.), but there has also been solid evidence that Imperial scholars suspect that other galaxies have been consumed by the Tyrannids. Responding with a compensatory remark as bold as Orks being the driving force behind the Tyrannids invading this galaxy seems unsupported and a falsification of a Orkish fanboy.
Solid evidence from what sources? lol
How bout the Rulebook. Page 166.
"Fire topedoes!",
BLAM!
"Another Eldar hull breached! may he go down with his craftworld sir, maybe in death we won't have to requote things!"
"They only come back as wraithlords sire!"
"Damnit, load the tubes again!"
I love it when someone says 'SOLID' evidence and speculate in the same sentence.... What an oxymoron...
Hmm I am tired. Too many people to correct apparently. There is solid evidence on page 166 of the Rulebook, that the Tyrannids have consumed other galaxies. The Lore would explain this as a speculation and observance of Imperial Scholars unless you yourself can find a better source for the lore.
They think and speculate that they have done this there is not solid evidence of this because no one from our galaxy has left the galaxy, hence it can NOT be proven, YOUR supposed proof is not proof, you call us ignorant when it is really the pot calling the kettle black..
DemetriDominov wrote:Hmm I am tired. Too many people to correct apparently. There is solid evidence on page 166 of the Rulebook, that the Tyrannids have consumed other galaxies.
I think you misunderstand the concept of "solid evidence".
By that argument, there's solid evidence that Orks exist outside the galaxy, too.
Thus, my argument-- Tyranids are really running from Orks!
Fine. It's my own speculation / interpretation of how to put a statement on pg 166 of the vrekking BRB in an Imperial interpretation of the Lore as they would see it... and as I have quoted it, it's not speculation its an indisputable fact made by the game developers.
By fluff views.
TYRANIDS WILL WIN!
This is because as the tyranids and orks die rippers will eat the bodies, stealthylike and go to the digestion pools. The tyranids will continuously repopulate but so will the orks. After another 40k years the war will continue and none will win. STALEMATE!
grandcell2 wrote:By fluff views. TYRANIDS WILL WIN! This is because as the tyranids and orks die rippers will eat the bodies, stealthylike and go to the digestion pools. The tyranids will continuously repopulate but so will the orks. After another 40k years the war will continue and none will win. STALEMATE!
First I was like, yay!
Then I was like kay!
Then I was like..... hey?
How do you go from tyrannids will win.. to stalemate? Lmao.
DemetriDominov wrote:Fine. It's my own speculation / interpretation of how to put a statement on pg 166 of the vrekking BRB in an Imperial interpretation of the Lore as they would see it... and as I have quoted it, it's not speculation its an indisputable fact made by the game developers.
Thus, both your arguments are invalid. Try again.
Your reasoning is flawed it is laughable....
Anyone that is does not agree with your opinion, which is all that it is and they are 'wrong try again'
You have proven nothing, yet you think you have doomalopy
DemetriDominov wrote:its an indisputable fact made by the game developers.
So is that the Orks are unstoppable.
Well if you want to get that knit picky of the BRB, it actually doesn't even say that in the Ork section. It tells of their brutality, their love of violence, and love of conquering others, and has nothing, not even the word "unstoppable" in the entire section. But in the Tyrannid section where my quote on pg 166 is, on the very next page, the last sentence reads: "Unrelenting and all but unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of every other species that inhabits the galaxy."
Case in point, by the hands of those who write the rules, guide the lore, and oversee the destinies of the entire 40k universe like Tzneetch himself the Tyranids (whom I haven't even spelled right this entire time) will win regardless of any argument you have against it. To fight it, is to fight the fates themselves.
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Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
DemetriDominov wrote:Fine. It's my own speculation / interpretation of how to put a statement on pg 166 of the vrekking BRB in an Imperial interpretation of the Lore as they would see it... and as I have quoted it, it's not speculation its an indisputable fact made by the game developers.
Thus, both your arguments are invalid. Try again.
Your reasoning is flawed it is laughable....
Anyone that is does not agree with your opinion, which is all that it is and they are 'wrong try again'
You have proven nothing, yet you think you have doomalopy
I have proven unquestionably that you are wrong and that I am right. Im not sure how much clearer it can get that the words I used were not my own, but those who actually develop the game...
DemetriDominov wrote:its an indisputable fact made by the game developers.
So is that the Orks are unstoppable.
Well if you want to get that knit picky of the BRB, it actually doesn't even say that in the Ork section. It tells of their brutality, their love of violence, and love of conquering others, and has nothing, not even the word "unstoppable" in the entire section. But in the Tyrannid section where my quote on pg 166 is, on the very next page, the last sentence reads: "Unrelenting and all but unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of every other species that inhabits the galaxy."
Case in point, by the hands of those who write the rules, guide the lore, and oversee the destinies of the entire 40k universe like Tzneetch himself the Tyranids (whom I haven't even spelled right this entire time) will win regardless of any argument you have against it. To fight it, is to fight the fates themselves.
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Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
DemetriDominov wrote:Fine. It's my own speculation / interpretation of how to put a statement on pg 166 of the vrekking BRB in an Imperial interpretation of the Lore as they would see it... and as I have quoted it, it's not speculation its an indisputable fact made by the game developers.
Thus, both your arguments are invalid. Try again.
Your reasoning is flawed it is laughable....
Anyone that is does not agree with your opinion, which is all that it is and they are 'wrong try again'
You have proven nothing, yet you think you have doomalopy
I have proven unquestionably that you are wrong and that I am right. Im not sure how much clearer it can get that the words I used were not my own, but those who actually develop the game...
Not really I think you have no way of seeing any view other than what you think is right.... there are many of us out there that have been playing this game and reading its fluff since before you were even an itch in your daddies pants
Since both races are seen as unstoppable in the fluff then both of you are right and the battle will likely come down to the last boy vs the last hormagaunt and who wins will be nothing more than a roll of the dice. If you where to repeat it it may end with the opposite result, both races are simply two similar in capability to decisively say which race would come out on top without wild speculation.
Not really I think you have no way of seeing any view other than what you think is right.... there are many of us out there that have been playing this game and reading its fluff since before you were even an itch in your daddies pants
I have no respect for someone who calls themselves an elder and then demands respect. Earn it by leveling with me instead of believing yourself automatically of higher status than me simply because you believe you've been doing this longer than I have, or go back and be a troll to somebody else. My view is my own and I am defending it. What have you done? Nothing but being that annoying itch that has no opinion but one against my own.
I think this is starting to move beyond debate and beginning to get to full of insults. I'm to lazy to go get my tyranid codex and rule book right now, but I beleive it talks about a war in there where orks and tyranids were fighting and the ork leader was assasinated the empire fell apart as orks began to infight, while they were fighting tyranids. which seems to blow apart the argument that orks don't fight when other races are around (although I might be remembering the extract wrong).
This is a bit of a riduculous argument, if you go by the orks codex the orks win, if you go by the tyranids the tyranids win. In the ork codex if they unite no one will be able to stop them. In the tyranid codex nothing short of the galaxy uniting against them will be enough to stop them. Basically its an argument that will never be answered and I don't think these threads (as much fun as they are) will ever decide them.
While Tyrannids do evolve rapidly and adapt to many given circumstances, I do have a problem with the idea that they would ever use the Orks or the genetics of Orks as a "endless biomass resources".
Of all things tyranids are hunters/gatherers but they just don't have the mind of farmers.
And this is the next problem they have. Though they are indeed numerous enough to fight a long war, they cannot afford to battle for single planets/systems too long. They HAVE to win every battle, because they burn through their ressources at tremendous speed, so they need the conquered planets to devour it's biomass to make profit from it. If the battle rages to long, what seems to be possible against Orks, they will have problems to just breake even.
That said, Orks just can keep on and on. Even if an Ork and a tyrannid force destroy each other completely, it's the orks that will rise afterwards from the spores they left behind.
So, main argument is: tyranids have to win in a given amount of time and can't afford a stalemate over centuries, while Orks can.
captainliger wrote:I think this is starting to move beyond debate and beginning to get to full of insults. I'm to lazy to go get my tyranid codex and rule book right now, but I beleive it talks about a war in there where orks and tyranids were fighting and the ork leader was assasinated the empire fell apart as orks began to infight, while they were fighting tyranids. which seems to blow apart the argument that orks don't fight when other races are around (although I might be remembering the extract wrong).
This is a bit of a riduculous argument, if you go by the orks codex the orks win, if you go by the tyranids the tyranids win. In the ork codex if they unite no one will be able to stop them. In the tyranid codex nothing short of the galaxy uniting against them will be enough to stop them. Basically its an argument that will never be answered and I don't think these threads (as much fun as they are) will ever decide them.
Sir it was the octarius sector, and it wasnt the top warboss who got assasinated it was a up and coming warboss who was really good at raids and stuff. I agree that these things can get to competitve but they are to fune not to do it, plus this is like sport, in the heat of the arguement some things are said that everyone wishes they werent said at all. As for me I am an ork player through and through and I gotta say these are really even if no clear victor is found.
To the ripper thing the orks have squigs and grots to defend their feet\dead bodies so that is a moot arguement
The Orks wouldn't WANT to win. The idea of an unending war against a merciless and uncountable foe is every Orks dream It would be the biggest, most destructive war to ever occur.
Think of the collateral. The Boyz need to make if from one side of the galaxy to where the Super-Warboss and the 'nids are. So we have a mass migration of Orks from everywhere in the galaxy to a single point... Everywhere behind that line is now destroyed.
The galaxy would just become the Orks playground, they would fight until the end of time.
'ERE WE GO 'ERE WE GO 'ERE WE GO!
Der be kumpin ter do ahn' shootin' ter do. Dem bugz fink deyz no da best but dey aint ever seenz da boyz group up all big ahn propaz. WAAAAAAAAAGH
Not really I think you have no way of seeing any view other than what you think is right.... there are many of us out there that have been playing this game and reading its fluff since before you were even an itch in your daddies pants
I have no respect for someone who calls themselves an elder and then demands respect. Earn it by leveling with me instead of believing yourself automatically of higher status than me simply because you believe you've been doing this longer than I have, or go back and be a troll to somebody else. My view is my own and I am defending it. What have you done? Nothing but being that annoying itch that has no opinion but one against my own.
I never demanded respect, nor do I think you are capable of respecting anyone but yourself
Since the beginning of this debate I have not said I think there is a clear winner here, however I have pointed out that what you state as 'Solid' evidence is not and you are the one who initially became beligerant
Melissia wrote:Indeed, apparently disputing that your evidence is solid is insulting.
Why wouldn't I be insulted when someone scoffs at a quote I pulled from the rulebook? I'd probably quit playing with the person on TT if they said to me "Oh, btw, assaulting and shooting in this game, I know it says it in the book, but it doesn't count so we're not using it." It's disrespectful and immature to dispute those things, and it has no bounds being in the argument in the first place.
And as for the most recent codex. It's the most recent codex, therefore we have conflicting things and more than likely the new will beat out the old. It could also be a mix of both, considering that the absence of the quote from the rulebook in the codex does not void the statement itself. Indeed, it's plausible that the Tyranids although possibly running from something, could have ran through several galaxies to do it.
So... Unless I'm mistaken, the fluff already says there are Orks and Tyranids fighting in massive stalemates already, because neither can gain a foothold, while the IoM just kinda watches and hopes they kill each other. So with that all said, looks like the Orks and Nids are evenly matched and a winner wont be crawling out anytime soon, both are too streamlined for killing.
If that happened not only would the Tryannids gain control of many Orks simply because of brain bugs implanted in them separating them from the rest of Ork kind because the Hive Mind can smother it like warp energies with the Shadow of the Warp
Orks aren't connected to the warp, and can their species can tell when another ork isn't well... Orky, that's why genestealer orks aren't running around, Orks don't like it on a cellular level. But to continue on the warp aspect, the nids can take out all kinds of warp energies, but WAAAGH energies are different in that they only effect orks
Regardless... these fights just kinda run into a stalemate, the one thing the orks have up on the nids is that they can team up, Hive Fleets don't become friends, multiple WAAAGHs do though
As with anything, respect begets respect. But if you haven't noticed, I've been defending my position from no less than 5 people, and some seem less interested in my arguments than in simply arguing with me. I have not been shown much respect, and those who do, I have not one grievance against. Seriously, I'm being trolled from all sides and then treated like a troll. Attack the argument people.. not the person behind it.
Yeah it is currently a stalemate. However the book does say the Orks keep coming. At the current time every ork in 10 ly is a coming to the "Big fight" as it goes on, more orks will come. It is the nature of the orks.
Given time the Orks will win that war as they out produce the nids. The Nids need to win to keep production up, the orks simply need to stall.
Aye, about the brain bug thing, its kinda just another way to sicken and kill more Orks and stunt the growth of more. Symbotic relationships with Tyranids and fetal Orks doesn't seem too far fetched to me as the parasitic Tyranid creature would simply continue to infest more and more Orks from their spores much like any other communicable disease. Those that are discovered and deemed incurable or just plain weak = slaughtered, just as you said. = More spores, and more infant Orks to infect = more being slain and the cycle continues and drains Orkish resources.
@ Hunterofdarkness: Doesn't it also say that the Tyranids are coming as well? Even the m41 starchart suggests that there are trillions more Tyranids on the way. Plus Tyranids can actively consume and Tyranniform a planet while invading it. The Orks don't just have to stall, they have to prevent Tyranids completely from reaching the planets themselves or else be locked into a war without end: The Orks reproducing ceaselessly and virtually feeding the Tyranid swarm with limitless supplies of food.
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DeadlySquirrel wrote:Don't the 'nids to take their biomass back to the spawning pool to gain it anyway? So biomass can only be collected once a planet is pacified.
Orks win by attrition if so.
In a nutshell yes, but even so, the planet Tyraniforms with the Tyrannid invasion and digestion pools are as abundant as cesspools for the billions if not trillions of dead that will be piling up everywhere. The same could be said of the spores, they are vulnerable to attack (and in this case easy consumption) by the Tyranids. The Orks would need to protect them as fiercely as the Tyranids, for anywhere the Orks would be growing, Tyranids would be attacking and feasting.
D*@#it! Nearly forgot: As far as the WAAGH goes, I thought it was a psychic power unrelated to the warp? If so, I think that there needs to be a clarification about the Tyranid Shadow of the Warp ability. Does it cloud the Orks abilities like it does to the Imperium?
Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah it is currently a stalemate. However the book does say the Orks keep coming. At the current time every ork in 10 ly is a coming to the "Big fight" as it goes on, more orks will come. It is the nature of the orks.
Given time the Orks will win that war as they out produce the nids. The Nids need to win to keep production up, the orks simply need to stall.
We also have no way of knowing how many nid fleets are coming from other galaxies, they don'y necessarily have to devour all the orks for biomass they can simply draw from huge amounts of nids arriving in this galaxy. more orks come - more nids come ... the stalemate continues.
Warboss Gideon wrote:Orks aren't connected to the warp, and can their species can tell when another ork isn't well... Orky, that's why genestealer orks aren't running around, Orks don't like it on a cellular level. But to continue on the warp aspect, the nids can take out all kinds of warp energies, but WAAAGH energies are different in that they only effect orks
Furthermore, Tyranids do not blot out psychic powers. Hell, humans can actually mimic Tyranid powers anyway-- even low level human psykers can produce an effect (smaller, but otherwise identical) to the hive mind.
razor5647 wrote:We also have no way of knowing how many nid fleets are coming from other galaxies, they don'y necessarily have to devour all the orks for biomass they can simply draw from huge amounts of nids arriving in this galaxy. more orks come - more nids come ... the stalemate continues.
The 'nid fanboys assume there's uncountable 'nid fleets, but for all we know, the 'nid fleets we've seen thus far are all they have-- and to them this is a desperate grab for resources which they may not even succeed.
razor5647 wrote: We also have no way of knowing how many nid fleets are coming from other galaxies, they don'y necessarily have to devour all the orks for biomass they can simply draw from huge amounts of nids arriving in this galaxy. more orks come - more nids come ... the stalemate continues.
I like you. You'll be absorbed last with me.
Unfortunately the rebuttle is going to be as it has been before, "But we don't know how many there are! It could be loads, or really not that much, and Orks could be driving them from another galaxy but we don't know for sure, in fact we don't even know if Orks made it to other galaxies and if they have, who knows what terrible forces are destroying them there? It could be a Tyranid race that has long evolved to feast off of Orks like cattle and pump them in an endless tide to other galaxies...."
The nid fleets however are far slower then the Ork fleets. And the orks also respawn at a faster rate with a greater number. At the rate the nids fleet move the war will be long over before the nids achieve overwhelming numbers.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The nid fleets however are far slower then the Ork fleets. And the orks also respawn at a faster rate with a greater number. At the rate the nids fleet move the war will be long over before the nids achieve overwhelming numbers.
In some cases the Orks find ways to enter into the warp, but it's not necessarily intentionally every time. The Tyranids are just as randomly thrown into the warp and emerge in strange places all over the galaxy. Space Hulks are prime example of the just plain weirdness of the Tyranid and Orkish relationship. You're just as likely to find Tyranids on ancient Space Hulks as you are to find Orks, and inside that closed space are often eternal battles where the Orks grow up, die fighting the Tyranids, are eaten, make more Tyranids and then the Orkish spores that aren't consumed grow up and attack the Tyranids again. It's a prime example of this galaxy wide conflict and what would happen, only that in the locked container that is the galaxy wide space hulk, the Tyranids are flooding into it and there aren't many Orks doing the same from the opposite side, they're already there.
based on the purpose of this thread the war isn't over until one race or the other wins. (I think it far more likely that both races will be destroyed but..)
And it is not a question of speed the nids entering the galaxy are doing so at a constant rate. the hive fleets in the galaxy already haven't fully arrived and the nids that are still in intergalactic space could in theory consume more biomass from other systems before making it to the conflict zone.
And I know we have no way of knowing how many nids are on the way but with a conflict this large lasting this long cosmic events could end the conflict like a star going nova or a warp storm disrupting all interstellar travel.. There are simply too many variables!!
razor5647 wrote:based on the purpose of this thread the war isn't over until one race or the other wins. (I think it far more likely that both races will be destroyed but..)
And it is not a question of speed the nids entering the galaxy are doing so at a constant rate. the hive fleets in the galaxy already haven't fully arrived and the nids that are still in intergalactic space could in theory consume more biomass from other systems before making it to the conflict zone.
And I know we have no way of knowing how many nids are on the way but with a conflict this large lasting this long cosmic events could end the conflict like a star going nova or a warp storm disrupting all interstellar travel.. There are simply too many variables!!
I agree with you. This argument is mostly something along the lines of a predator and it's prey, the Orks gain no benefit from losing against the Tyrannids because they'd be driven into extinction. The Tyranids suffer the same fate if they lose outright to the Orks, but in winning the Tyranids also will likely die off because there would be no more food left in the galaxy. So even if all of my arguments I have presented rang true and the Orks got the green snot kicked out of them the end result of a Tyranid victory would be the extinction of all life in the milky way. If none of them are true then the Orks win but are dragged into a war of attrition so brutal only the Orks could survive it in the first place, and as it has been said, the ultimate victory would likely go down to the very last Ork and Tyrannid spore and zygote. We must also consider the terrible consequence of just how powerful Khorne and Nurgle would become from all of the death and destruction of this conflict would bring... and that the victor, whomever it would be, would get smoked outright by an endless tide of Daemons (held at bay only by the extinct Eldar and Imperium).
Edit: I can't spell correctly for some reason today. Sorry for the ridiculous amount of OCD edits.
Ok first off the nids do not need to take over a planet completly to be able to harvest it, as seen in the DOW 2 series the nids start growing small pools everywhere for the harvest.
Next is that the orks can not reproduce as effectivly as usually since the nids release micro organisms that can take out the ork spoors( this might not be true cause I read this on the lex so look it up in a nid codex about the octarius war please)
To razor5647 I can see where your point is coming from, where both sides will eleminate the othe but if that happens then it is a ork vic cause the few spoors that landed will start the process all over again.
Finally to the chaos wins thing, that is unlikly cause if the orks win this huge battle Gork and Mork who will have soaked up a lot of worship from that huge waaagh will be 6 times as strong as Khorne since they already are more powerfull it wouldnt matter in the end
still rooting for orks but I cant just let some of these things go un-answered since I want this thread to continue!!!!!!!
Warboss Gideon wrote:So... Unless I'm mistaken, the fluff already says there are Orks and Tyranids fighting in massive stalemates already, because neither can gain a foothold, while the IoM just kinda watches and hopes they kill each other. So with that all said, looks like the Orks and Nids are evenly matched and a winner wont be crawling out anytime soon, both are too streamlined for killing.
If that happened not only would the Tryannids gain control of many Orks simply because of brain bugs implanted in them separating them from the rest of Ork kind because the Hive Mind can smother it like warp energies with the Shadow of the Warp
Orks aren't connected to the warp, and can their species can tell when another ork isn't well... Orky, that's why genestealer orks aren't running around, Orks don't like it on a cellular level. But to continue on the warp aspect, the nids can take out all kinds of warp energies, but WAAAGH energies are different in that they only effect orks
Regardless... these fights just kinda run into a stalemate, the one thing the orks have up on the nids is that they can team up, Hive Fleets don't become friends, multiple WAAAGHs do though
Actually in second edition there used to be ork genstealers at different levels, but they sort of nixed that idea in later editions...
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DemetriDominov wrote:As with anything, respect begets respect. But if you haven't noticed, I've been defending my position from no less than 5 people, and some seem less interested in my arguments than in simply arguing with me. I have not been shown much respect, and those who do, I have not one grievance against. Seriously, I'm being trolled from all sides and then treated like a troll. Attack the argument people.. not the person behind it.
Actually you have just been saying you are right and that anyone that does not have your opinion is wrong. Much of what you call trolling is brought on by yourself and your abrassive nature
Actually you have just been saying you are right and that anyone that does not have your opinion is wrong. Much of what you call trolling is brought on by yourself and your abrassive nature
DemetriDominov wrote: Attack the argument people.. not the person behind it.
Actually you have just been saying you are right and that anyone that does not have your opinion is wrong. Much of what you call trolling is brought on by yourself and your abrassive nature
DemetriDominov wrote: Attack the argument people.. not the person behind it.
You need to explain more on the "solid evidence" line. It isn't what? It's not true? It's not "good advice?". I need to follow solid evidence? I have no idea what you're talking about because that's not a full sentence.
There is zero solid evidence. You keep using stuff that has been over ruled and most people call shaky to start with.
Another note not being snarky man, but if you really did not understand her last post you either have been awake far to long, been drinking or have low language comprehension. As it was pretty clear what she said.
Actually in second edition there used to be ork genstealers at different levels, but they sort of nixed that idea in later editions...
Oh they totally exist, just not alot haha
D*@#it! Nearly forgot: As far as the WAAGH goes, I thought it was a psychic power unrelated to the warp? If so, I think that there needs to be a clarification about the Tyranid Shadow of the Warp ability. Does it cloud the Orks abilities like it does to the Imperium?
Don't think they could, don't think anything really blocks out WAAAGH energies, I'm not 100% though
Also the tyranid parasite idea does bring a new aspect of the fight to light, I didn't know the tyranids could do that kind of thing, very clever though
Although, just like the orks fighting tyranids, this argument will never have a winner lol
Hunterindarkness wrote:There is zero solid evidence. You keep using stuff that has been over ruled and most people call shaky to start with.
Another note not being snarky man, but if you really did not understand her last post you either have been awake far to long, been drinking or have low language comprehension. As it was pretty clear what she said.
1. Dunno how you can get speculation from a quote in the rulebook.
2. Nope. Don't get it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warboss Gideon wrote:
Although, just like the orks fighting tyranids, this argument will never have a winner lol
Pretty sure that's the most accurate statement anyone has made on this thread lol.
1. Dunno how you can get speculation from a quote in the rulebook.
2. Nope. Don't get it.
1: Its a GW product. That alone means it will be contradicted by just about every other GW product on the subject. And it has been, so that is all it is at this point. Speculation.
2: She said you should take your own advice and that your evidence was not solid.
Edit: to be fair your quote at the time may have been what sadly counts as the pitiful 40k canon at the time or a left over or just something that sounded neat. Currently however, every since the nid codex it is purely speculation.
1. Dunno how you can get speculation from a quote in the rulebook.
2. Nope. Don't get it.
1: Its a GW product. That alone means it will be contradicted by just about every other GW product on the subject. And it has been, so that is all it is at this point. Speculation.
2: She said you should take your own advice and that your evidence was not solid.
Edit: to be fair your quote at the time may have been what sadly counts as the pitiful 40k canon at the time or a left over or just something that sounded neat. Currently however, every since the nid codex it is purely speculation.
Thank you for giving me some credit. I'm going purely off of what I have because I don't have the means to buy a tyrannid codex. I don't even like the tyrannids really, I'd fight them day and night if I could, but I'm limited by resources and I avoid quoting lexicannum on these things for obvious reasons.
That last sentence that she posted was about as vague as she could have possibly made it.. it's missing the crucial word of a second "solid", or even a comma. Virtually anything grammatically correct other than the way it's written would be more clear as to what she meant lol.
About the question if the 'nids warpshadow can cancel out the Waagh energy or not.
Would it not mean that, if it did, the orks would be pretty unable to fight at all? What with most of their equipment that just works because of that. They would be down to choppas. And even Orks can't put up much of a fight that way.
I just wanted to chuck my points into this well reasoned and minorly uninformed debate.
1: When haveTyranids ever fought each other? Unlike the Orkz, the Tyranids are one force working in harmony to eat whatever they can. IF the Orkz band together to kill Tyranids they still have the problem of needing a leader they agree on, which will never happen. No single Ork can progress high enough above the others to be unbeatable and the few that have tried meet a swift end at enemy hands during there vain attempts and showing their power.
2: The full force of the Tyranids is unknown where as, Orkz havn't even spread from the known space during 40k history/lore. This means that although there is a specific number of Orkz the tyranids that exsist in the known space may only be a minute portion of their full power. If it calls for it the Hive mind simply needs to draw on more resorces hidden from us.
3: The Tyranids have the Upper hand asthey can cut communications using the Shadows of the Warp, More Orks would have no way of finding if their kin are being attacked and so the Tranids are able to call upon the element of surprise.
4: I admit that the Tyranids will loose on a multiple of Battle fields, but Orkz won't hold a planet forever against an enemy that is endless.
5: Tyranids eat Biomass,Rippers could simply spend their time eating the Orky mushrooms as they grow.This would cut off their reinforcement supply using a minimal resource and stop the growth of Ork forces, then it only needs the numbers to beat the existing Orkz which with all that shroom mass can easily be made. An alternative method would be using Pyrovores to burn the spores as they drift through the air.
These are five, reliable lore backed arguements as to why I feel the Tyranids will win. I agree that Orkz will put up a huge fight and every other race will most likely be killed out in the process, but you can't stop the innevitable. The Orkz vs Deamons arguement inevitably ends the same way. Now Tyranids vs Deamons is a simple task of The Hive mind never actually sees Deamons he could simply disgard their existance and poof no more Deamons.
Hezekial wrote:I just wanted to chuck my points into this well reasoned and minorly uninformed debate.
1: When haveTyranids ever fought each other? Unlike the Orkz, the Tyranids are one force working in harmony to eat whatever they can. IF the Orkz band together to kill Tyranids they still have the problem of needing a leader they agree on, which will never happen. No single Ork can progress high enough above the others to be unbeatable and the few that have tried meet a swift end at enemy hands during there vain attempts and showing their power.
2: The full force of the Tyranids is unknown where as, Orkz havn't even spread from the known space during 40k history/lore. This means that although there is a specific number of Orkz the tyranids that exsist in the known space may only be a minute portion of their full power. If it calls for it the Hive mind simply needs to draw on more resorces hidden from us.
3: The Tyranids have the Upper hand asthey can cut communications using the Shadows of the Warp, More Orks would have no way of finding if their kin are being attacked and so the Tranids are able to call upon the element of surprise.
4: I admit that the Tyranids will loose on a multiple of Battle fields, but Orkz won't hold a planet forever against an enemy that is endless.
5: Tyranids eat Biomass,Rippers could simply spend their time eating the Orky mushrooms as they grow.This would cut off their reinforcement supply using a minimal resource and stop the growth of Ork forces, then it only needs the numbers to beat the existing Orkz which with all that shroom mass can easily be made. An alternative method would be using Pyrovores to burn the spores as they drift through the air.
These are five, reliable lore backed arguements as to why I feel the Tyranids will win. I agree that Orkz will put up a huge fight and every other race will most likely be killed out in the process, but you can't stop the innevitable. The Orkz vs Deamons arguement inevitably ends the same way. Now Tyranids vs Deamons is a simple task of The Hive mind never actually sees Deamons he could simply disgard their existance and poof no more Deamons.
I agree with your points for the most part but there a few holes
1.)Though Tyranids do not fight eachother there have been Ork Warlords out there that commanded the respect of enough orks to combine WAAAGHS like Ghazghul Mag Urhik Thraka, that I think would have the means to hold them together for such an endevour, though I agree having such a leader may not occur
2.) I am fairly certain that the Emperor tried to take a census of the Orks and was unable to get an idea of exact numbers, except that they existed in every corner of the galaxy, who's to say that they have not ventured beyond, I know long shot, but playing devil's advocate here
3.) I do not believe shadow of the warp would totallly block their abilities or communications entirely as 1 it has a range and 2 WAAAGH esp. Ghazy's still works even in shadow of the warp so I don't believe it can shut the power of the waagh down.. just my opinion
4.) I think that they could I don't think no matter what the tyranids do they could stop all the spores from developing more orks as they would not hold the entire planet and thus areas free of nids or battle could still develop orks
5.) I agree that the nids could use the shrooms, but again they would not control all of the land so the orks would still have shrooms to feed or feed the Squigs
I am not saying who will win, I am just saying I don't think it is easy to call... in my opinion.. cheers all
1: When haveTyranids ever fought each other? Unlike the Orkz, the Tyranids are one force working in harmony to eat whatever they can. IF the Orkz band together to kill Tyranids they still have the problem of needing a leader they agree on, which will never happen. No single Ork can progress high enough above the others to be unbeatable and the few that have tried meet a swift end at enemy hands during there vain attempts and showing their power.
Ghazzy united most of the orks, no ork willingly questions him, aaaaaaand the hive fleets don't become friends, they fight each other to get a hybrid of themselves, so if behemoth and kracken met, they'd fight....
3: The Tyranids have the Upper hand asthey can cut communications using the Shadows of the Warp, More Orks would have no way of finding if their kin are being attacked and so the Tranids are able to call upon the element of surprise.
Shadows of the warp doesn't kill the WAAAGH, it's an independent force created by orks themselves
Warboss Gideon wrote:
Ghazzy united most of the orks, no ork willingly questions him, aaaaaaand the hive fleets don't become friends, they fight each other to get a hybrid of themselves, so if behemoth and kracken met, they'd fight....
True, but only if the Hive mind wanted them to. Unlike the Orks, their nature is single tracked for a cause, Orks, by nature are anarchic.
Shadows of the warp doesn't kill the WAAAGH, it's an independent force created by orks themselves
True, but he's saying logistically the Tyranids could still make the bands of Orks isolated from one another by interfering with the signals from one Ork group to another, not kill the WAAGH power itself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I agree with your points for the most part but there a few holes
1.)Though Tyranids do not fight eachother there have been Ork Warlords out there that commanded the respect of enough orks to combine WAAAGHS like Ghazghul Mag Urhik Thraka, that I think would have the means to hold them together for such an endevour, though I agree having such a leader may not occur
True. But what if he dies? He's not one to hide forever from the Tyranids, he'll be in the thick of it fighting bio-titans if he wants to. The Orks are only banded together by the strongest of leaders and when they die, for all king's reigns don't last forever, there will be infighting that will sap the Orks ability to hold back the continuous tide of tyranids.
2.) I am fairly certain that the Emperor tried to take a census of the Orks and was unable to get an idea of exact numbers, except that they existed in every corner of the galaxy, who's to say that they have not ventured beyond, I know long shot, but playing devil's advocate here.
Melissia says they've received Orkish signals from outside of the galaxy. If it's true, they haven't really elaborated on the topic, meaning it could just be random Orks who flew too far outside of the galaxy and are now stuck in the vast region of intergalactic space... to the possibility that Orks made it to other galaxies and have massive empires there... to even the outside chance that there are Orks driving the Tyranids from the last galaxy they were in like a herd of squigs. Doubt much of this is true though. It's not really in the nature for Tyranids to run away from food, so whatever is chasing them is probably either not alive, not edible, or could just be starvation itself. Who knows?
3.) I do not believe shadow of the warp would totallly block their abilities or communications entirely as 1 it has a range and 2 WAAAGH esp. Ghazy's still works even in shadow of the warp so I don't believe it can shut the power of the waagh down.. just my opinion
Very true. Could effect logistics though.
4.) I think that they could I don't think no matter what the tyranids do they could stop all the spores from developing more orks as they would not hold the entire planet and thus areas free of nids or battle could still develop orks
If it's edible, they have a way to consume them.
5.) I agree that the nids could use the shrooms, but again they would not control all of the land so the orks would still have shrooms to feed or feed the Squigs
I am not saying who will win, I am just saying I don't think it is easy to call... in my opinion.. cheers all
Controlling all of the land all of the time would only happen if one side gained absolute victory. Either the Tyranids take the land, or they lose it to the Orks who restore it unintentionally by their orkish ecosystem.. albeit, endless war because its a strange cycle of life / death. The orks are food capable of fighting for themselves, the Tyranids are super predators that will over centuries if they have to, evolve to survive and continue this cycle of dog eat dog.
Hezekial wrote:I just wanted to chuck my points into this well reasoned and minorly uninformed debate.
1: When haveTyranids ever fought each other? Unlike the Orkz, the Tyranids are one force working in harmony to eat whatever they can. IF the Orkz band together to kill Tyranids they still have the problem of needing a leader they agree on, which will never happen. No single Ork can progress high enough above the others to be unbeatable and the few that have tried meet a swift end at enemy hands during there vain attempts and showing their power.
2: The full force of the Tyranids is unknown where as, Orkz havn't even spread from the known space during 40k history/lore. This means that although there is a specific number of Orkz the tyranids that exsist in the known space may only be a minute portion of their full power. If it calls for it the Hive mind simply needs to draw on more resorces hidden from us.
3: The Tyranids have the Upper hand asthey can cut communications using the Shadows of the Warp, More Orks would have no way of finding if their kin are being attacked and so the Tranids are able to call upon the element of surprise.
4: I admit that the Tyranids will loose on a multiple of Battle fields, but Orkz won't hold a planet forever against an enemy that is endless.
5: Tyranids eat Biomass,Rippers could simply spend their time eating the Orky mushrooms as they grow.This would cut off their reinforcement supply using a minimal resource and stop the growth of Ork forces, then it only needs the numbers to beat the existing Orkz which with all that shroom mass can easily be made. An alternative method would be using Pyrovores to burn the spores as they drift through the air.
These are five, reliable lore backed arguements as to why I feel the Tyranids will win. I agree that Orkz will put up a huge fight and every other race will most likely be killed out in the process, but you can't stop the innevitable. The Orkz vs Deamons arguement inevitably ends the same way. Now Tyranids vs Deamons is a simple task of The Hive mind never actually sees Deamons he could simply disgard their existance and poof no more Deamons.
Your first statment can be proven false, if their were no infightin of the tyranids then their can not be nids vs nids there would never be tt games that might match with the fluff eva.
Second the Iom sent out a probe to other galaxies and found ork signals. Does this mean that orks rulez other galaxies, idk but they are out their and they might have unlimited numbers in this galaxy alone since they are on alot of planets not to mention asteroids and space hulks.
The shadow of the warp might not be that usefull since the worst it would do is make the transition into real space a little bumper then usual, it shouldnt even effect the ork syckers at all since they use waagh energy and not warp energy.
Yeah but they are both endless in their own ways.
That wouldnt happen at all because of the squigs and grots that would be all over the place killing each other.
These are five ways the orks could easily block out the tyranids attacks as you have stated, sir.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The warp shadow has never seemed to effect orks before now. So it is unlikely it effects them at all.
Yet their weirdboy who is there psycker unit has to take a shadow in the warp leadership test I beleive, even though they get their energy from the waaagh energy all around them. Sorry dont really play against nids that much.
Hunterindarkness wrote:The warp shadow has never seemed to effect orks before now. So it is unlikely it effects them at all.
Yet their weirdboy who is there psycker unit has to take a shadow in the warp leadership test I beleive, even though they get their energy from the waaagh energy all around them. Sorry dont really play against nids that much.
Me either, however in fluff it seems to hacve zero effect upon a waaagh itself.
Eh TT rules made for "Balance" seem to make poor measurements for fluff based arguments.
I am not sure the nids could win vs a united necron threat either, but them, orks and necro ns would still be fighting long after everyone else is dead though,
Blanks don't counter the WAAAGH! (for example, Jurgen's being near the warboss, or any Ork really did not remove the warboss' confidence, which for any Ork is massively boosted by the WAAAGH! depending on how many Boyz are participating-- sure it's a Cain book, but still, there's no evidence of this having any effect in tabletop or in the FFG games either), despite the fact that Blanks are FAR more effective than Tyranids at countering psychic powers-- in that psychic powers are utterly unusable against the Blank, and even being NEAR the Blank makes it (nigh) impossible to use a psychic power for all but the most powerful of psykers, whereas most psykers can use psychic powers with only a modicum of difficulty under the shadow of the warp.
Ergo, the Shadow of the Warp doesn't counter the WAAAGH!. Really, this one should have been obvious, as there's no evidence that it does anyway. Meanwhile, Blanks DO effect Tyranid synapse...
This thread started off relatively interesting, and then it reached a new level of realized potential once I finally smashed that overrused Ork codex quote to pieces.
But it has since degenerated into something horrible; complete with attempts to use TT balance for a fluff discussion.
sadfaece. Well, I'm throwing my lot in with the Tyranids. All in all I think they're tailor made to beat Orks down.
"Wooooooah, the largest Waaaaaggh in recorded history lead by the most competent ork in recorded history managed to ALMOST take a SINGLE planet belonging to a faction that controls MILLIONS of planets! Badass!"
I kinda miss the old Ork fluff where they were just the noisy, troublesome neighbors of the 40K universe roaming around in cobbled together Space Hulks looking for fights, not this inexhaustible, massively reproducing idiot-savant space fungus that they turned into at some point.
It seems that 40K keeps trying to "sequel syndrome" all of the "bad guy" races by making them stronger, and more ominous and more powerful. When everything in the universe is apparently eventually going to win, it pretty much waters everything down and makes it cliche. The Tyranids, when they were re-released and re-vamped for 2nd Edition, were the "Oh gak" race. Chaos was dangerous and lurking in the shadows, Orks were annoying and occasionally became dangerous when a warlord could get them together, but the Tyranids were, no gak, going to eat everyone, and had been more or less unstoppable until the Ultramarines defeated them at Macragge, and nobody was sure if they could be defeated again.
Now, at this point with the new races and new fluff, apparently the Necrons are going to wake up and destroy the Imperium, Chaos is going to destroy the Imperium, Orks are going to destroy the Imperium, oh, and yeah, apparently the Tyranids are still going to eat the Imperium too.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Now, at this point with the new races and new fluff, apparently the Necrons are going to wake up and destroy the Imperium, Chaos is going to destroy the Imperium, Orks are going to destroy the Imperium, oh, and yeah, apparently the Tyranids are still going to eat the Imperium too.
I like your style. Whoever wins this debate.. it's definitely not going to be humanity, in the 40k grimdark universe, or even in this thread.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I kinda miss the old Ork fluff where they were just the noisy, troublesome neighbors of the 40K universe roaming around in cobbled together Space Hulks looking for fights
Hunterindarkness wrote:I do not think you smashed the ork quote. I think you simply pointed out how bad GW is at setting management
Eh if a single hive fleet can't curb stomp a small ork empire what chance do they have at everything else?
This isnt a small ork empire this is one of the larger ones, the Octarius war is between the nids and the blood axe clan (the most dangerous clan out there if you ask me) and the nids are gonna lose cause this empire has not only defended well against the empire but have manage to make several nice counter attacks in return. So yeah that is my fav ork empire place ever!!!!!!!!!
Hunterindarkness wrote:I do not think you smashed the ork quote. I think you simply pointed out how bad GW is at setting management
Eh if a single hive fleet can't curb stomp a small ork empire what chance do they have at everything else?
This isnt a small ork empire this is one of the larger ones, the Octarius war is between the nids and the blood axe clan (the most dangerous clan out there if you ask me) and the nids are gonna lose cause this empire has not only defended well against the empire but have manage to make several nice counter attacks in return. So yeah that is my fav ork empire place ever!!!!!!!!!
Its what..a dozen worlds? twenty tops? That is really, really minor in the grand scrim of things.
When you kill an ork 12 more pop up. That doesn't mean that they are fully grown orks that can kill things. It's like you have a big block of cheese cut that into 12 and you have 12 small blocks of cheese. Cut those blocks into 12 each and you have 144 smaller blocks of cheese. Cut those into 12 and you have 1728 tiny block cheese blocks that rippers can easily maul
Automatically Appended Next Post: In the nids codex it says that if the warring races don't unite then the whole galaxy us doomed
Jayo'rWhen you kill an ork 12 more pop up. That doesn't mean that they are fully grown orks that can kill things. It's like you have a big block of cheese cut that into 12 and you have 12 small blocks of cheese. Cut those blocks into 12 each and you have 144 smaller blocks of cheese. Cut those into 12 and you have 1728 tiny block cheese blocks that rippers can easily maul
Actually the orks dont come out as child orks they come out as Yoofs which are a little bit smaller then ork boyz, but are still able to kill a space marine if they get into combat. In the end means 1728 Yoofs killing rippers which make the yoofs into boyz\Nobz
Automatically Appended Next Post: In the nids codex it says that if the warring races don't unite then the whole galaxy us doomed
Yeah and it says in the ork codex if they unite the galaxy is doomed, your point??
The orks would win this war for one and only one major reason.
They love to fight.
Meaning unlike the 'Nids who for fight for survival and can adapt, yadda, yadda,
the Orks want to go Crumkpin' and will find a way to thrive on it. So the Tyranids
consume a world as they invade it they change themselves and produce units
that will fight effectively against it's inhabinants...the Orks will just use what ever
is handy and keep on truckin'. And will in all likely hood, use the instability of the
Tyranids against them. The Orks maybe stupid, but they're undeniably kunning!
The Orks surely would loose to a race/battle on the Tyranids terms, and are certainly
exploitable thru Warbosses, resources, etc. But! The 'Nids are even moreso in those terms!
It seems from the Tyranid codex the only real advantage they have is being able to
consistently retain experience in the form of units such as the Warriors and Tyrants
(synapse creatures). And they really only ever gain resources when they can consume
unmolested! (Logically you'd think that if resistance was too much the 'Nids would just simply
withdraw and attack elsewhere, but it seems they do the Total war thing with no other option!)
Orks trump this by never truely being linear, i.e. they're always changing up how they fight and
are entirely sporadic in warfare. (pun intended!)
It's been the underlying reason why the Orks are the dominant species in the galaxy. Additionally,
it seems that the 'Nids have very limited speed/means of intersteller space travel. I read somewhere
about how they have a Bioship that harnesses a sun's gravity to pull a Fleet into a system, but I can only
imagine the amount of engery/resources that takes to use and might go on to explain why they're so darn
aggressive in needing to defeating and devouring a world/system!
Not even the Hive fleets fight together or in cohesion from what's been displayed and the various
Splinter Fleets have been known to snubb at each other in the way of devouring worlds. Orks often
unite against other species regardless of infighting, which should be more suprising than it is.
ok i like orks so my post may be slightly baised.In any case, one of the big things which is holding back the orks is the Iom which is dieing slowly but surely their head has been cut and they are stopping to run around like a headless chicken. I personally think that eventually the orks will over run the Iom and take a massive Waaagh to the eldar as well if some one doesnt do it first. Gakuskall thrakka knows that this will happen eventually and i reckon that he will be the one to lead the charge with the Iom outof the way there will be little to stop the orks. and dont forget if gahskull thrakka gives a teleporta to wasdakka gutsmek every one is . thats my opionon you dont have to agree. i also agree with most that has been said obove me.
Hunterindarkness wrote:1: they have to win to feed off it and 2: the bigger and harder the fight the better and more orks you get. The more Orks you get the more things go...odd
On the first point you don't have to win all the battles to win a war. Since the OP's question has not specified if this is one great battle or a war I assumed that we are talking about a war. As such a full scale war would be different. Sure the Nids would lose some of the battles but they would definitely win some as well. So for the winning battles we have: % of casualties of the enemy ( we are talking about Orks = large amount of biomass) + % of own casualties + probability of new genes and strengths implemented to the swarm.
Second point. Touche.
Finally, on the example this is but a Single HiveFleet (if I recall) and the Nids already have several other HiveFleets over the universe + splinter fleets that are growing ( I am excluding any possibility of extra hivefleets that have not yet reached the galaxy as it is an unknown factor)
Only a few years later, in 997.M41 Hive Fleet Leviathan unexpectedly appeared from "below" the plane of the galaxy (on the Z axis) and attacked from two points, cutting off large portions of the galaxy from reinforcements. Just as it seemed the defenses of the Segmentum Solar and perhaps Terra itself would be tested, the Tyranids were distracted by being deflected into the star system of a powerful Ork empire. While the Orks are managing to stall the main Tyranid Hive Fleet's advance, they are likely to reemerge from these battles, victorious and stronger than ever after having absorbed potent Orkoid genetic material into their own genome pool.
This is what I was talking about. Ok I know its the wikia but I don't have the codex at hand
^Ok well if you look on lex it says that the war between the empire and the fleet are to equal to actually declare who is winnin also to note, the eldar and the iom actually attacked the ork side, some people beleive that they were attacked because they were starting to gain an upper hand in the war.
Also the nids dont need to actually win the world completly over, they have won planets with lesser numbers against orks by taking the resources that they need from the dead bodies and making new nids out of them. All of this happenin when the orks had more orks then nids, thats always a bad sign!!!!
How the war goes all is in which source you are using. As it stands at last point the nids where ground to a halt, but the orks where beginning to overwhelm them with numbers.
The fact remains unlike orks the nids need to win. They can't run off their own bio-mass forever, they loose some evey time they die and do not always get it all back. A stalling game puts it in favor the the orks.
Hunterindarkness wrote:How the war goes all is in which source you are using. As it stands at last point the nids where ground to a halt, but the orks where beginning to overwhelm them with numbers.
The fact remains unlike orks the nids need to win. They can't run off their own bio-mass forever, they loose some evey time they die and do not always get it all back. A stalling game puts it in favor the the orks.
Correction: Both sides need to win to win. Any ground lost to the Tyranids equals more biomass fed into the machine. The Orks not only have to hold their ground against the Tyranids, they have to utterly shut off access and deny any biomass available to them in their retreat. Scortched earth tactics may not even work because Tyranids can still draw their resources from the fertile ash. This means its not easy to deny resources from the Tyranids considering any ground lost to the Tyranids counts as an automatic victory for them and only ground completely on lockdown by the Orks equals a victory for them. Otherwise it's still a coin toss for the outcome.
Hunterindarkness wrote:How the war goes all is in which source you are using. As it stands at last point the nids where ground to a halt, but the orks where beginning to overwhelm them with numbers.
The fact remains unlike orks the nids need to win. They can't run off their own bio-mass forever, they loose some evey time they die and do not always get it all back. A stalling game puts it in favor the the orks.
And this is my biggest problem with the modern ork fluff. When another race takes over the Tyranid niche as the unstoppable, always reproducing in bigger numbers race, you know the game is suffering from sequelitis. Orks are supposed to be the galaxy's loud, disruptive neighbors with cars on blocks in the front yard, not the ominous creeping death. If there was to be one major fluff retcon in 40k, I think I would choose return the orks to their roots when they were funny and awesome, not some kind of unstoppable force that can out-last the friggin Tyranids.
Hunterindarkness wrote:How the war goes all is in which source you are using. As it stands at last point the nids where ground to a halt, but the orks where beginning to overwhelm them with numbers.
The fact remains unlike orks the nids need to win. They can't run off their own bio-mass forever, they loose some evey time they die and do not always get it all back. A stalling game puts it in favor the the orks.
And this is my biggest problem with the modern ork fluff. When another race takes over the Tyranid niche as the unstoppable, always reproducing in bigger numbers race, you know the game is suffering from sequelitis. Orks are supposed to be the galaxy's loud, disruptive neighbors with cars on blocks in the front yard, not the ominous creeping death. If there was to be one major fluff retcon in 40k, I think I would choose return the orks to their roots when they were funny and awesome, not some kind of unstoppable force that can out-last the friggin Tyranids.
^^ Agreed ^^
We have plenty of other races, like daemons and necrons that seem to be without number and whose sole purpose in the fluff is to destroy all sentient life in wanton bloodshed. Orks at least still are somewhat true to form of the old days since they're highly unlikely to ever be completely united.
The Orks not only have to hold their ground against the Tyranids, they have to utterly shut off access and deny any biomass available to them in their retreat.
Are the Orks or the tyranids retreating in this scenario?
Never heard of Tyranids under synapse retreating either. Again, we're arguing over half pennies here, neither side is going anywhere in the war of attrition, and they'll be plenty of food for the Tyranids to continue the war effort, just as the Orks will have plenty of pods to pop open from behind their own lines. It's like a herd of pigs cutting through thick grass that just keeps growing. Both sides are going to get really big, but in the end, it's just going to end up being dirt, gak, and bacon.... delicious delicious bacon....
Hunterindarkness wrote:How the war goes all is in which source you are using. As it stands at last point the nids where ground to a halt, but the orks where beginning to overwhelm them with numbers.
The fact remains unlike orks the nids need to win. They can't run off their own bio-mass forever, they loose some evey time they die and do not always get it all back. A stalling game puts it in favor the the orks.
Correction: Both sides need to win to win. Any ground lost to the Tyranids equals more biomass fed into the machine. The Orks not only have to hold their ground against the Tyranids, they have to utterly shut off access and deny any biomass available to them in their retreat. Scortched earth tactics may not even work because Tyranids can still draw their resources from the fertile ash. This means its not easy to deny resources from the Tyranids considering any ground lost to the Tyranids counts as an automatic victory for them and only ground completely on lockdown by the Orks equals a victory for them. Otherwise it's still a coin toss for the outcome.
I do not really agree with all of this, it still comes out as a net loss to the nids. Sure they get some new bio-mass but the orks are coming in faster then the nids can grow replacements. Stalling does work for the orks, the orks must do nothing to "grow" new orks, the nids must harvest.
You're right, the only thing that can really slow or stop the Tyranids is famine. Unfortunately, the Orks are basically an unlimited amount of food, as they can grow anywhere the Tyranids will find and feast upon them in their most vulnerable state. We're really just debating how to exploit these alien's weaknesses. Tyranids hunger, and the Orks are weak in their infancy, exploit either weakness and they fall.
Was able to multiply into a Tyranid army large enough to wipe out an entire planet of orks. Entire planet of Orks vs. A single Tyranid spore-ship = single Tyranid spore-ship winning.
Tell me again that the Tyranids can't reinforce faster than the Orks can. I need to laugh some more.
No that single ship did kill off some orks..then used the whole planet to regain what fuel it used in taking it. But notice they are much less effective if they can not win.
The nids are damned effective, as long as they win and have more fuel. When they can not when however, they lose fuel per victory. They can't bring in over whemling numbers if they can't take the whole of a planet. They have to use some bio-mass for harvesting, They also do not reinforce each other. The orks however use no real amount of energy to create new troops and do infact reinforce each other in mass.
DemetriDominov wrote:You're right, the only thing that can really slow or stop the Tyranids is famine. Unfortunately, the Orks are basically an unlimited amount of food, as they can grow anywhere the Tyranids will find and feast upon them in their most vulnerable state. We're really just debating how to exploit these alien's weaknesses. Tyranids hunger, and the Orks are weak in their infancy, exploit either weakness and they fall.
You are literally saying that tyranids will win because they are fighting a force that is every bit as difficult to exterminate as them. It makes just as much sense to say the Orks will win because the Nids are hard enough to make the Orks grow and organize themselves properly.
Orks are the optimal force for meatgrinders. Full stop. It is their defining characteristic, IMO. Tyranids strength is in overwhelming force and the immediate conversion of the conquered world into armaments for the next battle.
Rilpikash has a really good analysis of the Ork/Nid relationship on page one of this. I think everyone should go read it again.
DemetriDominov wrote:You're right, the only thing that can really slow or stop the Tyranids is famine. Unfortunately, the Orks are basically an unlimited amount of food, as they can grow anywhere the Tyranids will find and feast upon them in their most vulnerable state. We're really just debating how to exploit these alien's weaknesses. Tyranids hunger, and the Orks are weak in their infancy, exploit either weakness and they fall.
You are literally saying that tyranids will win because they are fighting a force that is every bit as difficult to exterminate as them. It makes just as much sense to say the Orks will win because the Nids are hard enough to make the Orks grow and organize themselves properly.
Orks are the optimal force for meatgrinders. Full stop. It is their defining characteristic, IMO. Tyranids strength is in overwhelming force and the immediate conversion of the conquered world into armaments for the next battle.
Rilpikash has a really good analysis of the Ork/Nid relationship on page one of this. I think everyone should go read it again.
@ your analysis of my comment: You're right, I am. Nids are as hard to destroy as Orks and both races must achieve absolute and total victory over their planet to be completely safe. Genestealer cults seeded from larvae can grow themselves into a sizable army that can take on a planet lost to the Orks, it happens all the time in Space Hulks in a sort of perpetual battle for supremacy in exactly the sort of meat grinder you say the Orks are the best at, and proves that both sides can co-exist and resupply off of each other in even very close proximity from one another.
@ your comment on Rilpikash: I did and have expanded on his point multiple times. Orks are more susceptible to biological warfare as is now being discussed in another thread. Ork logistics are not as acute and instantaneous as the Hive Mind, and the Orks do not evolve at the same pace as the Tyranids.
@ your rebuttal: Therefore, Orks may be able to sustain the onslaught of a full scale Tyranid fleet, but they will not win the larger war because they will be surrounded, isolated, and consumed by the ever changing, ever adapting, and ever present vigilance of the Hive Mind that the Orks simply cannot contend with.
I think that, for an answer that covers all aspects, you'll really have to have information that's just not available.
Like: How many more hive-fleets are waiting or approaching the galaxy? Are there any more at all?
What is the "investement" the 'nids can make to get to devour a planet? What kind of planet? A jungle world? A desert planet?
I believe that the numbers of dead ork bodies will not make up for the lack of biomass on a mostly barren world for the Tyranids.
And I tend to belive that a full fledged battle consumes much more energy than can be harvested.
It's not only biomass in terms of bodies you throw into a fight, it's the energy consumption. Thy could make up for their investement after they won and can cash in.
I'm pretty sure the aggressive advancement inicates that they just have to. They cannot stop to reconsolidate or whatever.
They have the advantage of not to have to defend supply lines, with the downside of not having supply lines.
This means that the nids can lose, even when they win the battle. You know, in terms of profit.
Orks can be overwhelmed, thats true. And if you presume that they want their planet to be secured, you are right that they have to win to win.
But they don't. They prefer a good ongoing war to fight in. In Ork terms that means they win as long they don't lose.
DemetriDominov wrote:@ your analysis of my comment: You're right, I am. Nids are as hard to destroy as Orks and both races must achieve absolute and total victory over their planet to be completely safe. Genestealer cults seeded from larvae can grow themselves into a sizable army that can take on a planet lost to the Orks, it happens all the time in Space Hulks in a sort of perpetual battle for supremacy in exactly the sort of meat grinder you say the Orks are the best at, and proves that both sides can co-exist and resupply off of each other in even very close proximity from one another.
Right, they're both great at surviving.
DemetriDominov wrote:@ your comment on Rilpikash: I did and have expanded on his point multiple times. Orks are more susceptible to biological warfare as is now being discussed in another thread. Ork logistics are not as acute and instantaneous as the Hive Mind, and the Orks do not evolve at the same pace as the Tyranids.
Which thread? I'd love to read it. As for logistics, the Orks have instantaneous telepathical communication through weirdboys using WAAGH energy, not to mention some of the fastest travel available in the setting, warp travel. Demonstrably faster than the Tyranids at least. This travel is available both on their actual fleet ships and used via 'mysterious WAAGH energy' random warps in reality.
As for their evolutionary speed. The orks are already the perfect organism for war. Their technological levels can go from stone age to the 40th millenium in a few generations, depending on their adversaries. The Ork meks and brainboys will be splicing carnifex and lictor DNA in no time at all.
DemetriDominov wrote:@ your rebuttal: Therefore, Orks may be able to sustain the onslaught of a full scale Tyranid fleet, but they will not win the larger war because they will be surrounded, isolated, and consumed by the ever changing, ever adapting, and ever present vigilance of the Hive Mind that the Orks simply cannot contend with.
Again, the Orks congregate faster than the tyranids so every fleet that hits an Ork settlement too voracious to consume immediately is going to be checked for a long time. The tyranids are additive, the orks are multiplicative.
I just want to add for those concerned about a 40k where every race is the uberdoom of everything and everyone else is totally fubared, the orks aren't that race. Orks fight each other and can be redirected via bribes. Orks avoid imperial garrisons because the Eye of Terror has better krumpin. The orks aren't going to blot out anybody ('cept maybe the Tau on accident); the necrons, tyranids and chaos are the ones who have no other end game than everyone being wiped out or corrupted. They're the ones you gotta look out for. They're the ones the Imperium will be forced to focus on in the high stakes game because they'll take everything if they win.
The Orks have already won because they've gone everywhere and fought everything and are having a grand time doing it while still constantly expanding in numbers and influence. The Orks have found a galaxy in a perpetual state of war and they've embraced it.
As long as 40k exists there will be war and there will be Orks because the Orks are War.
Well a rather intresting match up , bythemselves i think it would almost be a standstill , Orks reproduce via Spores ( not an ork player so someone confirm this ) and Tyranids have mass spawning pools . In any case the stronger orks are much older then the gretchen ( which i assume are newly spawned ) in any manner orks would lose via attretion ( blasphamy no more Dakka ) the tyranids can replenish their numbers in a matter of hours ( Hammer of the Emperor with the Tarllens fighting Nids ) where it would take orks a matter of years , if the orks used strategy ok maybe but what the hell they are orks . But you would also have to consider intervention from outside forces from differnt theaters .
DemetriDominov wrote:
Even still... the Ork Empire fell millions of years ago.. not 10,000. All that is required to unite the entire Imperium is a way to bring back the Emperor which there are several theories as to how to do it, but nobody crazy enough to follow through with it. The Orks would need one hell of a Warboss to fully unite under the strains of an entire galaxy (mostly the Imperium) to connect every single stranded Ork colony / WAAAGH out there.
As for the OP, it would unquestionably be the Tyrannids who would win. There are literally hundreds of reasons I am dumbfounded we haven't seen been discussed.
Such as:
Spoiler:
The Orks would need to scientifically discover a way to sterilize the very planets they fought on (something they aren't particularly good at), or else the microscopic spores left behind by the Tyrannids would become parasites on the Orks, anything from burrowing tapeworms to Tryannid bacterial agents and toxins. Not only would the world itself revolt against them, it would infest the Ork race for centuries on the microscopic level and when these creatures enter the cerebral tissue of the Ork (who would be powerless to stop their slow advance through their bodies without advanced medicine, which they don't have) it would become a battle that the Hive Mind would end up winning because its effects are far stronger than the psychic link of the WAAGH. If that happened not only would the Tryannids gain control of many Orks simply because of brain bugs implanted in them separating them from the rest of Ork kind because the Hive Mind can smother it like warp energies with the Shadow of the Warp, they gain the abilities of Orks themselves - rapid spore based reproduction, the ability use technology, and apparently according to some people championing the Orks don't need any resources to survive, the ability to live without actually being alive. Can somebody please explain to me how a living creature can grow without in taking any type of fuel? I know Matt Ward didn't design the lore behind the original Orks, so there has to be a logical explanation to this conundrum. When you figure it out, consider that the Tyrannids are hands down the most efficient at doing the most basic, and yet hardest to sustain thing in the galaxy: Living.
Back on track, many people have been saying the Orks would adapt to fight the Tyrannids. True, but that's not the same as evolving, which occurs over centuries and involves hundreds if not thousands of adaptations. Not only this, the Tryannids can evolve much faster than any other known race in the galaxy, and if there's one that can do it even quicker, you can bet that'll change once the Tyrannids eat them. Which leads me to my next point, Orks can only Loot planets. Tyrannids consume them entirely. Any planet lost to the Green Tide only becomes a greater asset to the Great Devourer, but vs versa, any planet lost to the Tyrannids, is gone forever. Not only this, but the planets that are devoured give far more resources to the Tryannids and much faster than the Orks. Metals and stone all provide valuable minerals that are invaluable to the Tyrannids and are leeched, if not scoured clean along with the biomass of a fallen planet. It takes time to build, mine, refine, and then finally forge weapons and materials Orks would need to fight Tyrannids, because unlike every other force in the galaxy, the Tyrannids deny them of their greatest asset, the ability to Loot and continue the war effort, because they aren't particularly good at making their own weapons. I know someone is going to post the pic of a Mekboy riding a looted Carnefex, and apart form its virtual impossibility in the lore, the materials of the Ork's riding platform are in relatively short supply considering the other races (except for Chaos in the Eye of Terror) would either all be dead or consumed for this to happen. In short, the vast supplies of the galaxy favor the Tyrannids way more than they do the Orks. Therefore Tyrannids are far more adaptable than Orks are, and given the time constraints of pitting two enemies with virtually limitless power, it's going to be a very, very, very long war to sort out. Well beyond the time that it's going to take for the entire Tryrannid race evolving to become an aethema to the entire Ork race no matter what battlefield adaptation it can think of as it eventually runs out of things to Loot as the Tyrannids continue to destroy them and everything else.
Going back to the whole living thing I mentioned earlier. The Tyrannid race itself is geared towards the extinction of all other life. It is the dominant life form of the known universe even beyond the ambitious and formidable race that are the Orks. It achieves this by evolution, brutal efficiency, the permanent denial of others to gain resources, and even more importantly: unity of purpose. Orks strive for war. That's pretty much it. Even under one banner there will always be infighting, rivalries, brawls, and even civil wars to prove to each other their superiority. It's basically how one get's promoted to sergeant. You kill your sergeant. It's not efficient. It's not methodical. It may be effective in the 40k universe as it weeds the Ork race to be tough and strong, but against the Tyrannids it's suicide. Every available asset must be deployed at all times against the Tyrannid race or else they will steamroll over you, consume you, and then use your chummy bits to make more chummy bits, which in turn makes... yeah.
Though the Tryannids can be splintered momentarily from the Hive Mind, they will never fight against themselves as soon as a synapse creature regains it's link to the Hive Mind and is no longer feral. The Orks on the other hand would never be united long enough to fight a war that would last for millennia or more. It's just not going to happen under any circumstance, because Orks are Orks. They like killing. And if they're aren't killing Tyrannids, they're killing each other.
Alright, that's end of Portion 1. Here's the summary:
Argument portion 1, the Tyrannids win because they can evolve faster, are more united, vastly more efficient, and deny resources more effectively.
Argument portion 2 in case anyone wants to ask is: Time, Genetics, Biological Warfare, and Logistics.
I can go on...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
riplikash wrote:
Really the main difference between the two is the difference between raiders and cities. The ork cycle is self perpetuating. An ork world will keep producing more orks until its star goes out. They sacrifice short term gains for long term ones.
Tyranids instead strip a planet bare. While this provides massive short term resource gains, they wont reap nearly as much out of the world total. And as with any raiding culture, they can only maintain their system by perpetuating the raiding cycle.
You see this same tradeoff in the individuals of each species. Orks benefit from experience and growth, tyranids just produce what they want.
If we assumed both forces were even it would all come down to how the initial battles turn out. If the Tyranids could win the initial battles and maintain momentum they would win, as the Orks could not match the Tyranids raiding economy. If the orks superior defensive ability and stability ever broke the Tyranids war momentum, they would lose, as they could not match the orks more stable economy.
Interesting, I like this argument considering the Orks primarily loot things as their strategy for rearmament. I think it's more accurate to say that both sides are a raiding culture. One from a desire to survive, the Tyrannids, and the other to thrive, the Orks.
If they ever unplugged the emperor he would become a god of chaos, he would be so pissed at what the lords of terra have done in his name and making him into a deity that he would first deal with them and then be focused on the gods of chaos. I do not think that the imperium of man now or for a long while after the Emperor of man finally leaves his veggie body will they ever be able to fully unite and mobilize against the other races. I believe that the IOM will become like the Eldar, I think their high time has come and gone and their light will fade from the galaxy like the Eldar.
As for your logic on the nids winning over the Orks, I believe your logic is flawed. I am not saying there is an obvious answer, but I do believe the way Orks were originally genetically designed by the Brain Boyz and Old ones, that they are built to adapt the environment they live in to survive and thrive. As it states since Rogue Trader and 2nd ed. Wherever Orks go, fungus, Squigs and runts crop up too. It is true that lootas and death skulls do loot other armies things, but they do not kill a planet lifeless and move on, they just keep infecting other systems, so I do not believe they fit the raider category.
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Well if the God Emperor was unplugged and he was awakened i think that there would be a hell of a lot more retribution from the Xenos and Hertic as well as that of his own people ( like if Jesus had been reseructed during the Crusades )i agree that he would be mortifyed by what the did in the name of the emperor , but i think Humanity as it is being taught of the emperor from cradle to grave i think the following would happen ------- Space Marine Chapters reunite into Legions at the Emperors comeing ( chapter seperation was the Lords of Terra i think ) And many Imperial Guard Regiments would fall into disorder = disrupted supplie chains from shock of the populance . Shortly inorder i think a cleansing of the Inquisition would follow under the Emperors orders and quite possibley me somehow might Unite ALL of the Imperial Battlegoups ( not in the same location just mission ) and Might Actually Put Resources where they are needed . I.E Sending Virus bombs to a fleet outside of a Tyranid infested planet rather then a Agri world under no threat but suspeected of heresy . Also i think a Reorganaztion of Imperial Military Forces would ensue , there is a level of inefficance about the Imperial Guard and Navy , There is far to much delay between the Chains of Command . Imperial Troops might wait Decades on a planet because noone there has the athority to launch the final attack . The Guard and Navy would most likly return to the Imperial Armies standard of a bit of everything ( Each Regiment has some armour , Artillary , ect. ) compared to the Guard's way of if you are in infantry regiment you have only infantry .
DemetriDominov wrote:@ your comment on Rilpikash: I did and have expanded on his point multiple times. Orks are more susceptible to biological warfare as is now being discussed in another thread. Ork logistics are not as acute and instantaneous as the Hive Mind, and the Orks do not evolve at the same pace as the Tyranids.
Which thread? I'd love to read it. As for logistics, the Orks have instantaneous telepathical communication through weirdboys using WAAGH energy, not to mention some of the fastest travel available in the setting, warp travel. Demonstrably faster than the Tyranids at least. This travel is available both on their actual fleet ships and used via 'mysterious WAAGH energy' random warps in reality.
As long as 40k exists there will be war and there will be Orks because the Orks are War.
Too tired at the moment to offer a levelheaded rebuttal. Most of what you said is true.. I'm just too exhausted to offer anything more lol... as you can tell by me somehow messing up the quote bubbles.
Edit: I'm also getting tired of repeating and quoting myself so I'll try not to anymore.
Hunterindarkness wrote:But notice they are much less effective if they can not win.
That's tautological. Obviously, if someone can not win then they are not winning.
The nids are damned effective, as long as they win and have more fuel. When they can not when however, they lose fuel per victory. They can't bring in over whemling numbers if they can't take the whole of a planet. They have to use some bio-mass for harvesting, They also do not reinforce each other. The orks however use no real amount of energy to create new troops and do infact reinforce each other in mass.
The Tyranids lost their entire fleet and were reduced to a single spore-ship. They crash landed on a planet that was infested by orks, and within weeks managed to regain all of the bio-mass they had lost in space and take over the entire planet.
If the Tyranids are able to rebound into being stronger than ever after being outnumbered by the Orks a billion to one, what makes you think that they can't regain their numbers after losing some fights?
Furthermore, what makes you think that Orks can reinforce themselves after losing battles? They can't. It takes too long for spores to develop into orks for them to be a reliable form of reinforcement, and furthermore the spores also drift randomly across the entire planet, meaning that many of them are going to be turning into orks right in the middle of Tyranid territory anyway.
The primary method of Ork reinforcement derives from other orks across the Galaxy swarming to the battlefield and joining the Waagh. That is a much more inferior method of reinforcement than the Tyranid's process because for one, it takes months to years to warp-travel across the galaxy, and two, it requires the ork reinforcements to arrive in scattered leaderless waves, small chunks at a time. Whereas the Tyranid reinforcements are made right there in Tyranid base-camps, ready to join the front-line, in just a couple of days.
The orks disunity and erratic nature ensures that they can't outproduce the Tyranids in a war of attrition. And as far as winning battles, the Tyranid are a lot smarter than the orks are, on an individual level. There's more things in the Tyranid arsenal that the Orks have no answer for then there are things the Orks have that the Tyranids have no answer for.
Hunterindarkness wrote:But notice they are much less effective if they can not win.
That's tautological. Obviously, if someone can not win then they are not winning.
The nids are damned effective, as long as they win and have more fuel. When they can not when however, they lose fuel per victory. They can't bring in over whemling numbers if they can't take the whole of a planet. They have to use some bio-mass for harvesting, They also do not reinforce each other. The orks however use no real amount of energy to create new troops and do infact reinforce each other in mass.
The Tyranids lost their entire fleet and were reduced to a single spore-ship. They crash landed on a planet that was infested by orks, and within weeks managed to regain all of the bio-mass they had lost in space and take over the entire planet.
If the Tyranids are able to rebound into being stronger than ever after being outnumbered by the Orks a billion to one, what makes you think that they can't regain their numbers after losing some fights?
Furthermore, what makes you think that Orks can reinforce themselves after losing battles? They can't. It takes too long for spores to develop into orks for them to be a reliable form of reinforcement, and furthermore the spores also drift randomly across the entire planet, meaning that many of them are going to be turning into orks right in the middle of Tyranid territory anyway.
The primary method of Ork reinforcement derives from other orks across the Galaxy swarming to the battlefield and joining the Waagh. That is a much more inferior method of reinforcement than the Tyranid's process because it requires the ork reinforcements to arrive in scattered leaderless waves, small chunks at a time. Whereas the Tyranid reinforcements are made right there in Tyranid base-camps, ready to join the front-line, in just a couple of days.
The orks disunity and erratic nature ensures that they can't outproduce the Tyranids in a war of attrition. And as far as winning battles, the Tyranid are a lot smarter than the orks are, on an individual level. There's more things in the Tyranid arsenal that the Orks have no answer for then there are things the Orks have that the Tyranids have no answer for.
Well im sorry but as a Guard player ( this hurts saying this ) Orks do have have something the Nids Can't hope to Counter , the power of the WAAAAGHHH , it is a essance of pyskic energy , unstoppable hell no , desisive yes , Tyranid Synapse messes with traditional pyskers not ork ones
Waaagh power was nowhere to be found when Skarrfang's mob was getting literally embarrassed by the Tyranids and he lost his entire planet to a couple thousand Tyranids.
The Waaagh-Field, much like the Orks themselves, are overrated imo.
It's funny that it's mostly a bunch of guard players saying that the Tyranids would win - I'm one of them - I wonder what Tyranid players would say... since there's been about 1 or two this entire thread.
It's funny that's mostly a bunch of guard players saying that the Tyranids would win - I'm one of them - I wonder what Tyranid players would say... since there's been about 1 or two this entire thread.
In order for anyone to truely Beat the Tyranids the Imperial Guard would have to form an Alliance with the Tau and elder and in turn the Elder forming a Alliance with the Orks , Which in anycase it would take the combine might of hundreds of space Marine Chapters , Billions of Guardsmen , basically a fully galactic effort to push the damn roachs back
All this debate is rather interesting, but all we have is unknowns x unknowns x unknowns. I have no bias as I own and play both tyranids and orks. Off the top of my head I'd lean towards 'nids, just because they retain knowledge of a battle, even if they are wiped out.
Maybe GW will create a terrible hybrid - a tyranork! Yeah, a ROBOTIC tyranork!! That's it! A CHAOTIC race of tyranork robots! Of course! And they bless themselves in the blood of of the Sisters of Battle! Perfect! For the Greater Good!
amanita wrote:All this debate is rather interesting, but all we have is unknowns x unknowns x unknowns. I have no bias as I own and play both tyranids and orks. Off the top of my head I'd lean towards 'nids, just because they retain knowledge of a battle, even if they are wiped out.
Maybe GW will create a terrible hybrid - a tyranork! Yeah, a ROBOTIC tyranork!! That's it! A CHAOTIC race of tyranork robots! Of course! And they bless themselves in the blood of of the Sisters of Battle! Perfect! For the Greater Good!
Sorry i would have to disagree with that , the Imperial Guard has beatin them back before and won , but it is not easy fear . Are the Space Roaches hard to kill yes , Can they be Beaten yes .
Scrabb wrote:Thanks for the link Dimitri. For what it's worth I also believe the Imperium would defeat the Tyranids in a one on one faction fight.
Not a problem. And see, it may be blasphemous to say this but, even with the Emperor at the forefront I'm not sure they could, they have a good chance, but it's still a gamble anyways. Humanity may have a ton of resources available to fight, but it can't renew itself like the Orks can. And as everyone already knows, IM-not so-HO, the Imperium may be the best thing ever.. but its got a massive struggle ahead of itself to destroy every xenos out there... but that's a different thread entirely.
Scrabb wrote:Thanks for the link Dimitri. For what it's worth I also believe the Imperium would defeat the Tyranids in a one on one faction fight.
Not a problem. And see, it may be blasphemous to say this but, even with the Emperor at the forefront I'm not sure they could, they have a good chance, but it's still a gamble anyways. Humanity may have a ton of resources available to fight, but it can't renew itself like the Orks can. And as everyone already knows, IM-not so-HO, the Imperium may be the best thing ever.. but its got a massive struggle ahead of itself to destroy every xenos out there... but that's a different thread entirely.
the Imperium could certainly beat the Tyranids if they had full efforts on it , problem is that the imperials are streched across the Galaxy not in a few sectors
Yet they cant hold their own against the tyranids or orks when there is a waaaagh or a when a tendril of a hive fleet lands on a planet. They win either if they get really lucky, I mean really lucky here folks, like really really lucky... you dont even know how lucky... like incredibly lucky... I think you get the point . Anyway thats one way the other is if they have space marines to help them out . Both are not that reliant and both are incredibly likely not to work at all. Dont get me wrong the IG is great but lets face it in the fluff they are nothing but sheep sent to the slaughter.
Ya need to read more Gaunt's Ghosts man. It is all in who is writing. I mean SM for the most part ( Baring the SM Porn some or most of the BL stuff turns into)kinda suck, they have some good points but , a good part of em do not work right, they take8-12 years to make(assuming the subject lives) and are limited in numbers to be more or less useless.
According to official fluff if all the orks united they would sweep away all the other races in a tide of gore, but 'official' fluff tends to contradict itself.
Since we have no idea how many orks there are out there beyond 'fething lots!' it's hard to make definite statements on this
I think your all forgetting about marbo and his demo pack of the apocolyspe but on a serious note im gonna say nids i love orks but with how quickly nids adapt and evolve id give it to them it would be insanely close though
According to official fluff if all the orks united they would sweep away all the other races in a tide of gore, but 'official' fluff tends to contradict itself.
Since we have no idea how many orks there are out there beyond 'fething lots!' it's hard to make definite statements on this
Correct. The GK codex explicitly states that if the Imperium ever focused all of its forces on one enemy, no faction in the Galaxy would be able to contest it.
So yes, codex one-liners are meaningless.
The Imperium would win, though. It's military is smarter, has more destructive capabilities and are less likely to succumb to a power vacuum.
Naw da orks would smash the stikin nids to da ground even if dey looked a little weird!!!!!!
Ya need to read more Gaunt's Ghosts man. It is all in who is writing. I mean SM for the most part ( Baring the SM Porn some or most of the BL stuff turns into)kinda suck, they have some good points but , a good part of em do not work right, they take8-12 years to make(assuming the subject lives) and are limited in numbers to be more or less useless
It could mean that, but I dont think it does. You see the orks are not a faction at all, they are a race with as many factions as there are worlds in space. plus all uniting to stop the waaagh should destroy them in the end. I mean if the humans do unite they would stand like a year maybe two before the become exhausted and die from that. In the end orks beat everything!!!!!! Xcept maybe necrons
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less likely to succumb to a power vacuum
So if the Emperor just died(that is the only way the iom would unite) then who would take his place??Noone the factions would once again rise up and mass confusion would happen.
In the end orks beat everything!!!!!! Xcept maybe necrons
A small mind is easily filled with faith.
So if the Emperor just died(that is the only way the iom would unite) then who would take his place??Noone the factions would once again rise up and mass confusion would happen.
Not exactly. Really, the only thing that will unite *the Imperium* will be the resurrection of the Emperor, and there are many theories as to how that'll happen.
willhman wrote:So if the Emperor just died(that is the only way the iom would unite) then who would take his place??Noone the factions would once again rise up and mass confusion would happen.
The Emperor hasn't been leading the Imperium since Horus laid him out. The Imperium has been led by the High Lords of Terra and will continue to do so, and in the event that a member of the High Lords is killed or dies, a new one is simply elected in his place, which has happened before in the Imperium's History.
Nothing short of the works of Chaos is going to make the Imperium start spontaneously killing itself while an enemy force is actively breathing down its neck. Alternatively, that isn't true of the Orks. That's the beauty of having an actual chain of command, as opposed to "whoever's da biggest n da strongest rules!" It takes awhile to figure out the latter.
Nids are just going to eventually eat everything. The Ork battle that has halted them is only one part of the fleet if the whole thing came at the orks then they would be roasted by an endless tide of teeth and claws
BlaxicanX wrote:The Imperium would win, though. It's military is smarter,
Debatable.
"Oomans are pink and soft, not tough and green like da Boyz. They'z all the same size too, so they'z always arguing about who's in charge, 'cos no way of telling 'cept fer badges an' ooniforms and fings. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot of mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while they'z all arguing wiv each other over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot!" -Anonymous Ork
BlaxicanX wrote:has more destructive capabilities
BlaxicanX wrote:and are less likely to succumb to a power vacuum.
The God Emperor of Mankind is fanatically worshiped by some factions. The High Lords of Terra and the Mech faction (the name escapes me right now), not so much. I mean, all the ork clans working together is more believable than all the space marine chapters working together.
BlaxicanX wrote:and are less likely to succumb to a power vacuum.
The God Emperor of Mankind is fanatically worshiped by some factions. The High Lords of Terra and the Mech faction (the name escapes me right now), not so much. I mean, all the ork clans working together is more believable than all the space marine chapters working together.
This is all, of course, IMHO.
I'm glad it's opinion because it's not even remotely true. The very idea of the Emperor holds the Imperium together, what degree of fanaticism they believe in their Lord doesn't really matter considering there is no doubt everyone in the Imperium is already united under only the notion of the Carrion Lord still being their God, this includes but is not limited to: every Adeptus Astartes Chapter, the Ecclesiarchy (the Sisters of Battle), the Administratum, the Adeptus Mechanicus, The Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard, the Officio Assassinorum, the Inquisition with its three ordos: Hereticus, Xenos, and Mallous, the Adeptus Arbites, and the vast hordes of undefined pilgrims, crusaders, and fanatical warriors that don't really fall under an organization other than the population of the Imperium. Even with its shortcomings of bureaucracy and corruption, there is no doubt that the Imperium is probably the most focused organization in the 40k universe with amazing capabilities of recovering very quickly after an important leader has fallen. The Orks on the other hand are squabbling mobs and warbands and have a very difficult time even agreeing on who to smash first, let alone decide on a new leader and direction after a warlord has fallen.
DemetriDominov wrote:
A small mind is easily filled with faith.
Back at ya sir!!!!!!!!!
Not exactly. Really, the only thing that will unite *the Imperium* will be the resurrection of the Emperor, and there are many theories as to how that'll happen.
I meant on the battlefield, what would happen if the emperor died leading humanity against all the orks in the galaxy, total breakdown and mass panic. Have to remeber that he is a god to the iom these days. Silly humans. As you said Demetri a small mind is easily filled with faith!!!
ALL Orks VS ALL tyranids? Orks infest the galaxy and could indeed overtake it if they were to group together, nonetheless the Tyranids that have entered our galaxy so far are only the vanguard of their main force. That is, if the Tyranids don't have infinite numbers and have indeed devoured multiple galaxies already.
Conclusion: Tyranids are more numerous, so they'll eventually win.
We dont know if there are more nids outside the galaxy so that factor cant be brought up. What we do know is that there are more orks than any other race even tyranids at the moment that is!!! If there are more nids out there then yes they might be able to do what you say and win but since there isnt then advantage orks!!!!
willhman wrote:
I meant on the battlefield, what would happen if the emperor died leading humanity against all the orks in the galaxy, total breakdown and mass panic. Have to remeber that he is a god to the iom these days. Silly humans. As you said Demetri a small mind is easily filled with faith!!!
Well, as I said; rationally, the Emperor would need to be resurrected in the first place, and since no Living Saints have truly died on the battlefield, nor have any other "lesser" Gods been destroyed there, like the C'tan, it would probably not happen as you would imagine. If the Emperor came back to life, it would mean that he could likely do it many times more if an enemy was actually capable of mortally wounding him once more.
But the Emperor is not dead so all that would really happen is that he would be able to move like he used to.Im not talking bout a mortal wound more like a instant death type of deal. Also gods have been destroyed in the warhammer 40k universe before and they were some major gods. The Emperor is not a god any way he is just stylised as one.
DemetriDominov wrote:Well, as I said; rationally, the Emperor would need to be resurrected in the first place, and since no Living Saints have truly died on the battlefield, nor have any other "lesser" Gods been destroyed there, like the C'tan, it would probably not happen as you would imagine. If the Emperor came back to life, it would mean that he could likely do it many times more if an enemy was actually capable of mortally wounding him once more.
Right. So let's say a vortex grenade goes off on Terra and the golden throne is vaporized. Or even just the wrong servo skull notices the body is a corpse. The Imperium fails to suppress this information leading to rebellions/chaos defections/attacks on those who 'murdered' the Emperor/opportunistic assassinations/Lords of Terra disagreeing on what to do. etc. etc.
Now let's imagine Ghazzy croaks.
Which faction will recover quicker and which one lost more?
DemetriDominov wrote:Well, as I said; rationally, the Emperor would need to be resurrected in the first place, and since no Living Saints have truly died on the battlefield, nor have any other "lesser" Gods been destroyed there, like the C'tan, it would probably not happen as you would imagine. If the Emperor came back to life, it would mean that he could likely do it many times more if an enemy was actually capable of mortally wounding him once more.
Right. So let's say a vortex grenade goes off on Terra and the golden throne is vaporized. Or even just the wrong servo skull notices the body is a corpse. The Imperium fails to suppress this information leading to rebellions/chaos defections/attacks on those who 'murdered' the Emperor/opportunistic assassinations/Lords of Terra disagreeing on what to do. etc. etc.
Now let's imagine Ghazzy croaks.
Which faction will recover quicker and which one lost more?
Well I can't answer you because there is no lore to support your claim. The Imperium stands united and so long as there is a glimmer of hope that the Emperor can rise again like Jesus of Nazerath, the Imperium will remain that way. The Orks simply will do as they have always done, fight each other until a leader emerges that can beat all the other Orks.
Right. The Imperium stands united under The Emperor. I believe that means the Imperium as a faction is much more vulnerable to a power vacuum. It stands to reason that the more important/successful/involved(the astrominican anyone?) your leader is, the more painful the loss said leader will be.
Truthfully, the Emperor is not going to disappear from this setting. He's one of the threads that the balance of the 40k setting is standing on. Allow him to be reborn, kill him or even just have humanity lose faith in him and the setting cannot remain in stasis.
I'm trying to contest the assertion that Orks are more vulnerable to power vacuums than the Imperium. So I took it straight to the top. On any level though the Imperium is going to have a harder time replacing talent than the Orks. IMHO
Scrabb wrote:Right. The Imperium stands united under The Emperor. I believe that means the Imperium as a faction is much more vulnerable to a power vacuum. It stands to reason that the more important/successful/involved(the astrominican anyone?) your leader is, the more painful the loss said leader will be.
Truthfully, the Emperor is not going to disappear from this setting. He's one of the threads that the balance of the 40k setting is standing on. Allow him to be reborn, kill him or even just have humanity lose faith in him and the setting cannot remain in stasis.
I'm trying to contest the assertion that Orks are more vulnerable to power vacuums than the Imperium. So I took it straight to the top. On any level though the Imperium is going to have a harder time replacing talent than the Orks. IMHO
But that's where you're wrong, the Imperium's massive bureaucracy actually protects it from said power vacuum because there isn't just one leader, there are whole councils, planetary lords, and policing organizations under the God-Emperor striving to protect the Imperium for the second coming. That being said, we could argue all day about what would happen to the Imperium after the Emperor dies because as it is written right now, it seems as though it is inevitable. So ultimately, either I'm right, he returns, unites the Imperium once and for all and kicks the living day-lights out the Orks and everyone else, or you're right and he doesn't, causing the Imperium to fall into chaos, anarchy, and corruption. There's really nothing else to discuss about it lol.
DemetriDominov wrote: Even with its shortcomings of bureaucracy and corruption, there is no doubt that the Imperium is probably the most focused organization in the 40k universe with amazing capabilities of recovering very quickly after an important leader has fallen. The Orks on the other hand are squabbling mobs and warbands and have a very difficult time even agreeing on who to smash first, let alone decide on a new leader and direction after a warlord has fallen.
While I agree that the Imperium is vastly more organized than orks are your above statement simply isn’t true. I'd like to reference the Horus Heresy, The Age of Apostasy, The Badab War, the list goes on and on where the Imerium turns in on itself all the time.
Tyranids do not fight each other unless it benefits the whole Hive Mind. Tyranids are really the only race that is truly unified under one leadership and rule with betrayal. Tau are a close second with only one real leader breaking off from them.
Eldar craftworlds and Kabals fight each other all the time. Orks love to fight. Necron dynasties are at each others throats or in petty power struggles with each other now (stupid new fluff). The Imperium of man has thousands of separatists, traitors, heretics, or sometimes they just get confused with all the bureaucracy of things. It is the nature of Chaos to turn on each other.
Now to go back to the main point who will take the galaxy or who has more numbers: Orks or Nids. Well its impossible to say really without actually knowing the resources or the numbers nids actually have. Their background is so vuege they could have void spanning swarms that eat galaxies or just desperate hive fleets fleeing a greater threat. Over all a impossible argument IMO, but if I had to guess I would say nids with the war in the Octiava System as evidence for my case. Even with the odds against them the nids are winning.
@ Laughing God: But that's exactly the thing, the Imperium does fight itself on occasion, but it resolves it far quicker, and most of the time, (the AoA is really the only exception) the Imperium isn't fighting itself, its losing parts of itself to sedition. As a whole, the Imperium still remains very focused on damage control to fight the unruly Orks and other threats while simultaneously dealing with the civil war. Apart from that I'd agree with you on the statement about the Tyranids.
How are the nids winnin the war?? I hear it is at a complete stand still neither side is winning or losin. The biggest thing that is happening is eldar and IOM attackin the orks. Some people beleive that they are attackin the orks is to keep sides balanced. The Octarius system is literally shut down to all people sept orks\nids there isnt any evidence that the nids are winnin or have one so I dont see the example there.
As for the IOM the reason people dont revolt more often is because of fear and faith. If you take away just one of those things and instant chaos over the IOM. Besides you keep sayin that the councils in charge will take over, but who will listen?? If people found out that the Emperor died all forces ALL FORCES would join the side of chaos or kill themselves!!!! The peasants would revolt and it would be utter chaos!!!!
willhman wrote:How are the nids winnin the war?? I hear it is at a complete stand still neither side is winning or losin. The biggest thing that is happening is eldar and IOM attackin the orks. Some people beleive that they are attackin the orks is to keep sides balanced. The Octarius system is literally shut down to all people sept orks\nids there isnt any evidence that the nids are winnin or have one so I dont see the example there.
As for the IOM the reason people dont revolt more often is because of fear and faith. If you take away just one of those things and instant chaos over the IOM. Besides you keep sayin that the councils in charge will take over, but who will listen?? If people found out that the Emperor died all forces ALL FORCES would join the side of chaos or kill themselves!!!! The peasants would revolt and it would be utter chaos!!!!
Well, according to March's WD, the Nids are winning the war in the Octarius Sector. Several planets have fallen and on world itself, It says that Three leaders have been killed by the Swarmlord and two continents have completely fallen to the Hive fleet.
Yeah.... sounds like the beginning of the end for the Orks.
What's hilarious about all this, though, is that once the fight gets close to ending, the Imperium's just going to lob a few dozen vortex missiles at the planet and erase 99% of the bio-mass Leviathin's collected there anyway. They've already got air-superiority anyway (hence the blockading).
Thank you Sasori I didnt know bout the white dwarf magazine update. Last I heard bout the war was that it was still too close to tell. I still beleive that the orks can win the fight!!!!!
As to Blaxican the Emperor is not dead or else we wouldnt have the Astronomican to lead the fleets of the IOM. He is alive but he cant leave the golden throne or he WILL die.
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BlaxicanX wrote:What's hilarious about all this, though, is that once the fight gets close to ending, the Imperium's just going to lob a few dozen vortex missiles at the planet and erase 99% of the bio-mass Leviathin's collected there anyway. They've already got air-superiority anyway (hence the blockading).
Then tell me why then didnt just do that at the start sir?? I beleive that they dont have air superiority at ALL!!! The only reason that the blockade is doin well is because the orks and nids are too busy duckin it out with each other while some ships might accidently enter the IOM "Blochade". The main forces are around the planets where all the real fighting is happening. If they wanted to the orks OR the nids could easily break through that blockade.(Once again it is in my opinion dont really know that would happen). But why would they both have put too much resources\having too much fun to quit so all that can really happen is wait till the end.
Heh Sasori what was the name of the wd that talked about the octarius war was called??
willhman wrote: As to Blaxican the Emperor is not dead or else we wouldnt have the Astronomican to lead the fleets of the IOM. He is alive but he cant leave the golden throne or he WILL die.
His body is already dead. It's his soul that is still alive in the warp and creating the astronomicon.
Then tell me why then didnt just do that at the start sir?
Because that would defeat the whole point of starting the war in the first place. The Octavius war was started as a way to eradicate an Ork menace and to serve as a diversion to buy the Imperium enough time to muster its forces and deal with Leviathan. If the Imperium simply performed exterminatus on the planet and killed everything on it, there would be nothing left there to draw Leviathan away from Imperial planets, and the Hive-Fleet could focus all its power on Terra.
willhman wrote:
As to Blaxican the Emperor is not dead or else we wouldnt have the Astronomican to lead the fleets of the IOM. He is alive but he cant leave the golden throne or he WILL die.
His body is already dead. It's his soul that is still alive in the warp and creating the astronomicon.
Then tell me why then didnt just do that at the start sir?
Because that would defeat the whole point of starting the war in the first place. The Octavius war was started as a way to eradicate an Ork menace and to serve as a diversion to buy the Imperium enough time to muster its forces and deal with Leviathan. If the Imperium simply performed exterminatus on the planet and killed everything on it, there would be nothing left there to draw Leviathan away from Imperial planets, and the Hive-Fleet could focus all its power on Terra.
Sir if the emperor died then the IOM wouldnt be standin here today. The emperor is technicaly alive but cant use his body. You are right in the sense that the Emperor doesnt do anything politic wise but he is still ALIVE. If he actually dies and does not get reborned then the IOM would fall apart as every fightin force of the IOM fights for their god Emperor. With out him all people would stop listening to the terra council because they ruled under his command. Think of it this way, they have created a religion around him saying he is there god. Now if a relegions god suddenly dies then so does all its support and followers quit that church. The IOM is just one giant religoun with alot of followers. Without the Emperor the religion doesnt matter anymore. People would start switching to other religions like chaos or even the gg. So the Empror is the keystone to the IOM and without him it would collapse in on itself.
As for the war, whoever the winner is would emerge stronger then they entered the war, and since the IOM couldnt handle either of them before they started fightin each other what makes you think they could do it after words when the winnin side would be bigger and stronger than before??
Hezekial wrote:I just wanted to chuck my points into this well reasoned and minorly uninformed debate.
1: When haveTyranids ever fought each other? Unlike the Orkz, the Tyranids are one force working in harmony to eat whatever they can. IF the Orkz band together to kill Tyranids they still have the problem of needing a leader they agree on, which will never happen. No single Ork can progress high enough above the others to be unbeatable and the few that have tried meet a swift end at enemy hands during there vain attempts and showing their power.
2: The full force of the Tyranids is unknown where as, Orkz havn't even spread from the known space during 40k history/lore. This means that although there is a specific number of Orkz the tyranids that exsist in the known space may only be a minute portion of their full power. If it calls for it the Hive mind simply needs to draw on more resorces hidden from us.
3: The Tyranids have the Upper hand asthey can cut communications using the Shadows of the Warp, More Orks would have no way of finding if their kin are being attacked and so the Tranids are able to call upon the element of surprise.
4: I admit that the Tyranids will loose on a multiple of Battle fields, but Orkz won't hold a planet forever against an enemy that is endless.
5: Tyranids eat Biomass,Rippers could simply spend their time eating the Orky mushrooms as they grow.This would cut off their reinforcement supply using a minimal resource and stop the growth of Ork forces, then it only needs the numbers to beat the existing Orkz which with all that shroom mass can easily be made. An alternative method would be using Pyrovores to burn the spores as they drift through the air.
These are five, reliable lore backed arguements as to why I feel the Tyranids will win. I agree that Orkz will put up a huge fight and every other race will most likely be killed out in the process, but you can't stop the innevitable. The Orkz vs Deamons arguement inevitably ends the same way. Now Tyranids vs Deamons is a simple task of The Hive mind never actually sees Deamons he could simply disgard their existance and poof no more Deamons.
I agree with your points for the most part but there a few holes
1.)Though Tyranids do not fight eachother there have been Ork Warlords out there that commanded the respect of enough orks to combine WAAAGHS like Ghazghul Mag Urhik Thraka, that I think would have the means to hold them together for such an endevour, though I agree having such a leader may not occur
2.) I am fairly certain that the Emperor tried to take a census of the Orks and was unable to get an idea of exact numbers, except that they existed in every corner of the galaxy, who's to say that they have not ventured beyond, I know long shot, but playing devil's advocate here
3.) I do not believe shadow of the warp would totallly block their abilities or communications entirely as 1 it has a range and 2 WAAAGH esp. Ghazy's still works even in shadow of the warp so I don't believe it can shut the power of the waagh down.. just my opinion
4.) I think that they could I don't think no matter what the tyranids do they could stop all the spores from developing more orks as they would not hold the entire planet and thus areas free of nids or battle could still develop orks
5.) I agree that the nids could use the shrooms, but again they would not control all of the land so the orks would still have shrooms to feed or feed the Squigs
I am not saying who will win, I am just saying I don't think it is easy to call... in my opinion.. cheers all
Ye I see your point of view and I think we both made valid points, It is never easy to call which side will win a war of that scale. It all comes down to luck more than anything and these two races will most likely be the last two in the galaxy, so long as they both don't bugger off somewhere.
At first my vote was for the orcs because of the stated reasons of them getting bigger and stronger as time went on...but then someone brought up their reproduction rate through the spores.
Now we all can agree that orkz will lose some battles and thus their biomass will be consumed by nids. They evolve fast and will become bigger and stronger too but what if they also absorb their reproduction abilities. They would be strong nearly unkillable elite troops. Any thoughts on this?
Tyranids. That's just their schtick in the fluff: They come in impossibly large numbers and gobble up the galaxy, then move on to the next.
I know it says in the Codex and elsewhere that if the Orks ever united, they'd be unstoppable, and that's cool and all, but it gets brought up way too much, because it would -never- happen. And it isn't even the point. The thing about Orks is that they're the classic antagonist. They make it into every game adaptation for that reason: Not as the "final" enemy, but as the grunts. They're just great, straightforward enemies to fight, even if you can't really attach a grand overarching plot to them. And the thing about them being so numerous is, you can't ever get rid of them. There's a story in the codex about how a probe was sent out 14,000 years ago in the hopes of discovering the limits of the Universe, and it still sends back a faint signal of whatever transmissions it picks up - and many of them are Ork signals. The Imperium will -never- get rid of the Orks. And since they absolutely love to fight, that means the Imperium will always be at war. In that sense the Ork sum up everything the whole setting is about: "in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war"! To the humans, it's an absolute nightmare. To an Ork, it's the time of your life. You can kill the Eldar, wipe out the Tau, seal off the warp and hold the Tyranids at bay, but you won't ever get peace from the Orks.
And even if you somehow did manage to finally beat them and kill every single last one of them, they'd die doing what they love the most. And that is why Orks already won.
Thing is TGJ, nowadays being able to kill everyone else forever for real is everyone's schtick. The Imperium, Chaos, Necrons, Nids and Orks are all the final, last survivor; the one that can beat anyone. The fun bit is trying to pick apart which one really has what it takes.
Althought I wholeheartedly agree with you that da orks have already won, philosophically speaking.
thefragnar wrote:At first my vote was for the orcs because of the stated reasons of them getting bigger and stronger as time went on...but then someone brought up their reproduction rate through the spores.
Now we all can agree that orkz will lose some battles and thus their biomass will be consumed by nids. They evolve fast and will become bigger and stronger too but what if they also absorb their reproduction abilities. They would be strong nearly unkillable elite troops. Any thoughts on this?
Yeah the thing is, if the nids do use the spore gene then they get ride of their greatest weapon. Evoulution. See every thing comes from the Norn queens, Which are the ones that give the tyranid swarm the mutations. If they came from spores, then yes they would have a lot more numbers, but that would take time in wich to grow.Also since they are no longer coming from the norn queens, they are all exaclty the same, no upgrades sept for the one that the original had. So those are the main reasons that they are not using spores. Also how would the leadership work?? Since the leaderstrains are bigger they would take longer in incubation then, say the gaunts wich would attack everyone on site, not to mention how long it would take the leaders to finally round up all the gaunts in the area, to long the fleet would have been killed\starved to death by then.
Also even if the orks lose, they would still win cause there spores in space would land on planets\asteriods creatin more ork life in the galaxy. In the end the orks are the Ultimate survivors!!!!!
In the nids codex Kryptman put a splinter of hive fleet leviathon into the octavious system. Whilst millions of orks flocked to fight, the nids thrived on the whole war and took out the Warboss Skarfang with lictors, resulting in a tyranid win. If a splinter could take out an entire Waaagh then all the tyranids could wipe out the orks.
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willhman wrote:
Truly, we are an ignorant people to believe that the only possible way that the Tyrannids are here... are because of the Orks over all of the infinite possibilities of the universe, there is no other explaination than, "Oh, Orks and Tyrannids... must be the Orks then." What if the Tyrannids just ate all the Orks in the other galaxy they came from lol?
Thanks wilham. I was actually referring to a single type of nid. Like a termigaunt or genestealer but an orky nid. Only one is capable to do. Like a forward scout that causes chaos before their big arrival. But that is a great point that i hadn't thought of.
What's this "ork spores in space" nonsense? An ork spore in space would would just burn up the in the atmosphere. If a regular old flamer can be roast an ork to the point where it prevents it from releasing spores, the atmosphere will do just as good of a job.
Not too mention, I highly doubt a planet's gravitational pull is strong enough to drag a microscoping orc spore down to the planet.
Come on, guys. I know this is an ork-themed site, but the spank's gotta stop. Orks aren't unstoppable by any stretch of the imagination. It just takes more effort to exterminate them from the galaxy than any faction has the patience for.
Hornifex wrote:In the nids codex Kryptman put a splinter of hive fleet leviathon into the octavious system. Whilst millions of orks flocked to fight, the nids thrived on the whole war and took out the Warboss Skarfang with lictors, resulting in a tyranid win. If a splinter could take out an entire Waaagh then all the tyranids could wipe out the orks.
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willhman wrote:
Truly, we are an ignorant people to believe that the only possible way that the Tyrannids are here... are because of the Orks over all of the infinite possibilities of the universe, there is no other explaination than, "Oh, Orks and Tyrannids... must be the Orks then." What if the Tyrannids just ate all the Orks in the other galaxy they came from lol?
Orks could be a tyranid delicacy.
instead of wringtin a huge essay on skarfang here is the lexicanum page on him http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skarfang. It says that he died in a waaagh but the waaaagh is still goin.
I dont think I typed that quote cause it says that it could be that the nids actually killed all the orks in all the other galaxys, which is just as probable as if they are running away from them
To thefragnar there is a nid unit that has ork genes, its name is the Biovore check it out its pretty cool. Look closly at its jaw I think it will look familiar to you
To BlaxicanX it is possible for an ork spore to land on a planet through the push of etheric winds, which would pusk the spore to a planet. Since their spores are micro-scopic they may not burn up in entry. IDK, so I may be wrong. But the spores might not land on a Planet, its has a higher chance on landin on a meteor or something there it could give rise to a entire ecosystem of orks on that one meteor.
Think the spore thing simply depends on if they were designed to or not which is a debate in itself. The Tyranids certainly are, since that's how they descend from their hive ships to a world. Orks more than likely would need a meteor of some sort to attach to and then crash land on the planet. The argument is moot though because it just plays into the circular discussion of Orks are basically feeding the Tyranids with their endless numbers no matter where they end up crash landing.
Yeah lets see... Crash land with several thousand roks... teleport in Millions of orks\thousands of Gargants and the like... Tyranids dead orks win!!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: All because of the thousands of roks crashed landed and decimated the nids numbers!!!!
I can't remember the source of this information, I know it presents a weak front, but its about nid evoluation. What I remember about nid evolution is it is just like "normal" animal evolution. When an animal evolves it gains something, but also looses something in the process. There was a book I was reading about how guardsmen took out a nid army by constantly changing its battle tactics, keeping the nids to constantly have to readapt their evolution to the previous tactic.
If the guardsmen where going fast attack to do lightning raids on the nids, the nids would adapt their units to be faster. The faster units could keep up, if not outrun the guardsmen, but they lost alot of their protection in the process to gain the spee. The guardsmen planned on this then went with heavy fire units next to take out the now weakly armoured, fast moving nids.
Nid evolution is not making the "perfect" nid that is the fastest, strongest, toughest nid out there. It is constantly adapting its nids to fight the current tactic. I agree that nid evolution is fantastic, but its not the end all reason that they would win. They also must use bio mass to make these changes to each evolution cycle they choose.
The same can be said for orks getting stronger. When an ork survives a fight, he becomes stronger, tougher, and faster. As seen in there strength, wounds, and iniviative increasing going from boyz => nobs => warbosses. The difference here is the ork has to survive combat for the most part.
** Nid vastness vs ork vastness**
I don't think there are accurate number for either of these armies. There are several resources that say the orks spread to vast parts of the galaxy as seen with the imperial probe, that for hundreds of years reported ork activity along its path. The nid codex says that these hive fleets are just the tips of a further coming MASSIVE assault. For the sake of balance I say both armies have an uncountable number of troops.
Ailideon wrote:**nid evolution vs ork "saiyan" recovery**
I can't remember the source of this information, I know it presents a weak front, but its about nid evoluation. What I remember about nid evolution is it is just like "normal" animal evolution. When an animal evolves it gains something, but also looses something in the process. There was a book I was reading about how guardsmen took out a nid army by constantly changing its battle tactics, keeping the nids to constantly have to readapt their evolution to the previous tactic.
That doesn't make any sense. Evolution through natural selection doesn't involve at all making sacrifices for every gain we've made. Directed evolution (which is what the Nids do) would be even more controled and more profitable.
Yes but if you look at hive fleet Gorgon the adapted to make them specialists at one unit but weaker to others units\ the terrain it self. You cant make an invicible nid unit or it would be there already.
The thing about the ork, an ork can fight in many battles and not "survive". An ork warboss might have died thousands of times but they will slowly grow. An ork just needs to be put back together, even if it is with just nails, and he will feel as good as new. There are about three ways for this to fail. One crush the head completly might not happen if the enemy is busy or in retreat. Two body dies off over time, the body is too far gone for, in that case cybork body!!!!! Three body is burned. So its more likly for an Ork to grow and learn from his experiences then it is for the perfect nid.
willhman wrote:Yes but if you look at hive fleet Gorgon the adapted to make them specialists at one unit but weaker to others units\ the terrain it self. You cant make an invicible nid unit or it would be there already.
The thing about the ork, an ork can fight in many battles and not "survive". An ork warboss might have died thousands of times but they will slowly grow. An ork just needs to be put back together, even if it is with just nails, and he will feel as good as new. There are about three ways for this to fail. One crush the head completly might not happen if the enemy is busy or in retreat. Two body dies off over time, the body is too far gone for, in that case cybork body!!!!! Three body is burned. So its more likly for an Ork to grow and learn from his experiences then it is for the perfect nid.
Well then Gorgon is dumb. Evolution isn't like a D&d skill roll table, you don't have to take points from 'endurance' to put them in 'wisdom'. You can't make an invicible nids because there's about nothing that is invicible in 40k, the closest being the C'tan/Chaos Gods/Drago (O.o).
And I think Orks are fairly more damageable than how you describe them. Gut wounds will kill them, they just take massive amounts of damage before going done that way... And they're barely sensitive to pain, which helps a lot...
^^Yes that will get them down, But they will come back in the next battle if they get to the doks in time. What Im sayin is that it takes quite a bit to actually kill them, If the guts really are completly destroyed then just transplante in some other ones or a cybork body. Simple as that
I think there is one question that pertains to this thread that must be answered. If Gazghkull throws himself into the Octarius war and seeks out the Swarmlord, who will win in this epic clash of the titans?
A common misconception is that evolution works towards some sort of "perfection". That is as meaningless as saying there is a perfect vehicle.
What constitutes perfection is entirely dependent on the environment and the goals.
For example, to use the vehicle analogy. What constitutes the perfect vehicle? Is it a fast one? Well then light weight and powerful engine are things to have like a Formula 1 race car. Is it one that can haul large cargo? Then a powerful engine and sturdy frame to haul a cargo container would be better. Is it to do both? Well then you need a ridiculously powerful engine and then there is the factor of cost. What about if a perfect vehicle is one that is survivable? Then you can have a tank, loaded down with armor, but fuel inefficient due to its weight and costly compared to a civilian car. There is always a trade off involved simply because the goals are often mutually exclusive.
In the 4th edition Tyranid Codex, it mentioned how the Hive Mind did not produce big brains in all its creatures because that would be inefficient and costly. So while it is tempting to say the Tyranids will come up with the "perfect" creature, this is really dependent on whatever the local conditions are, and sometimes there will be considerations of cost, especially for creatures meant as cannon fodder. So a Tyranid creature might simply be "good enough" for its cost, rather than a perfect killing monster.
However on the other side of the conflict, looking at the Orks, they are sturdy and tough but they are not immortal. Otherwise we would never have an Ork actually dying, yet Orks are one of the more common alien enemies the Imperium encounters. The Orks have tough skin, muscle, thick hard bones, and due to their symbiotes do not bleed out easily, but ultimately they are still able to be killed by sufficient trauma, just more than what would be needed for a human. Also their spore ecosystem is not invulnerable either. We have a given example in the 5th edition Tyranid Codex with the example of Ghorala, and before it the world of Orrok (mentioned both in that Codex and in the Planetstrike supplement), as examples of Ork worlds being overcome and consumed by the Tyranids. This means Ork spores are not magically popping Orks out of the ground every 5 minutes, and the fact that these worlds fell meant their related fungus and squig ecosystem is still capable of being defeated by the Tyranids and their own mobile consumption ecosystem. The battle for Orrok, in Planetstrike, in fact describes how the battle took place even on the microscopic level with Ork spores fighting against Tyranid bacteria and parasites. The Tyranids won in the end.
Also, the Orks are not above being subverted by Genestealers. Evidence: The Ork Empire of Octavius/Octarius (GW seems to alternate spellings but it's clear they are referring to the same) that Kryptman seeded with captured Genestealers. In the 4th ed. Tyranid Codex, it says that the original infestation was wiped out but by then it had already spread across the Ork empire, and drew Hive Fleet Leviathan. It would be impossible for the infestation to have spread unless Orks were being successfully infected.
dont forget that the nids "vanguards" theory is just that, a theory from a imperial dude, the extragalactic orks however is fact, picked up by a anchient probe.
So useing the "vanguard" theory wont help too much, as for all we know the entire nid race in in the milky way and no more are coming, there is no evidence either way to support either theory.
As odd as it seems, i believe that orks in space are the better tactic, as anyone who plays BFG knows orks munch nids when it get going... but thats game rules and not fluff lol
Formosa wrote:dont forget that the nids "vanguards" theory is just that, a theory from a imperial dude, the extragalactic orks however is fact, picked up by a anchient probe.
So useing the "vanguard" theory wont help too much, as for all we know the entire nid race in in the milky way and no more are coming, there is no evidence either way to support either theory.
As odd as it seems, i believe that orks in space are the better tactic, as anyone who plays BFG knows orks munch nids when it get going... but thats game rules and not fluff lol
It's not extragalactic.
The quote is:
Millenia ago, a probe was sent out from Earth, its mission to voyage to the end of the galaxy. The scientists who built it hoped it would someday return to its place of origin after circumnavigating the galaxy. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and it hasn't yet begun its return voyage (and it's uncertain if it ever will). To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who still monitor the probe, amongst the incessant battery of incoming signals many are identified as Orkish.
p. 10, 2nd edition Ork Codex
The probe is circumnavigating the galaxy and is just reporting that the galaxy has many Orks. Somehow people seem to have misread or been overly enthusiastic and jumped from the actual text to hyperbolic claims of the Orks being everywhere including extragalactic.
Millenia ago, a probe was sent out from Earth, its mission to voyage to the end of the galaxy. The scientists who built it hoped it would someday return to its place of origin after circumnavigating the galaxy. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and it hasn't yet begun its return voyage (and it's uncertain if it ever will). To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who still monitor the probe, amongst the incessant battery of incoming signals many are identified as Orkish.
p. 10, 2nd edition Ork Codex
The probe is circumnavigating the galaxy and is just reporting that the galaxy has many Orks. Somehow people seem to have misread or been overly enthusiastic and jumped from the actual text to hyperbolic claims of the Orks being everywhere including extragalactic.
Hmm, interesting. The reason people 'jump' to that conclusion is that that piece of fluff seems to have been updated. In the 4th/5th edition Codex, page 18, it reads
Milennia ago, a probe was sent out from Terra, its mission to reach the utmost limits of the universe...
and it basically goes on to read pretty much what you quoted, albeit a bit paraphrased. So they did change it to insinuate that Orks are also present outside this galaxy.
Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..
Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.
Fiction logic implies either two outcome :
1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)
Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..
Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.
Fiction logic implies either two outcome :
1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)
And Archaon gets headbutted then manfred turns up but decides to leave and then....
I know i just thought i would put it in their to piss off a few people, as the majority of the people in this disscussion have no logic or reasoning behind their statements, like "Orkz win because they can all band together and be unstoppable." Well yes, but their own Codex says that they never will so why bring it up. And anyway, it's impossible to decide a winner otherwise, GW would have removed that races long ago in 1st edition of 40k.
Hezekial wrote:I know i just thought i would put it in their to piss off a few people, as the majority of the people in this disscussion have no logic or reasoning behind their statements, like "Orkz win because they can all band together and be unstoppable." Well yes, but their own Codex says that they never will so why bring it up. And anyway, it's impossible to decide a winner otherwise, GW would have removed that races long ago in 1st edition of 40k.
We think it's fun. And you can get a sense of what's a probable outcome. Sometimes.
Just trolling here, but I just HAD to register to bring up a point. People seem to quote codices that this or this faction is the meanest and baddest one, 'cause it says so in the big book. Well, I'm not 100% sure about the other codices, as I only have Tyranid one, but as far as I know, it goes like "Imperium concentrating all their power on a single faction, would surely bring it down". Or something along those lines.
People also quote Ork codex saying that "if they ever united they would bring down all the civilized races combined". Well, Tyranids are hardly civilized.
Aaand for Tyranids the rulebook just states that "Unrelenting and all but unstoppable, the Tyranid race represents the eventual doom of every other species that inhabits the galaxy." So in my mind "faction" < "all civilized races combined" < "eventual doom of every other species in a galaxy".
Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..
Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.
Fiction logic implies either two outcome :
1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)
Your number one is messed up good sir, here let a good fellow ork such as me help you out
1) Gazghkull kills the Swarmlord, then after awhile figures out that all the HT that are really hard to kill is actually the Swarmlord ressurected. When he finds this out he starts huntin him untill finally the Hive mind just thinks that he is losing Bio-resources and stops ressurecting the Swarmlord. Ghazghkull is Unstoppable IMO
Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..
Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.
Fiction logic implies either two outcome :
1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)
Your number one is messed up good sir, here let a good fellow ork such as me help you out
1) Gazghkull kills the Swarmlord, then after awhile figures out that all the HT that are really hard to kill is actually the Swarmlord ressurected. When he finds this out he starts huntin him untill finally the Hive mind just thinks that he is losing Bio-resources and stops ressurecting the Swarmlord. Ghazghkull is Unstoppable IMO
Considering the Swarmlord might have participated in the extinction of multiple galaxies, you might want to relativize that 'Ghazghkull is Unstoppable' statment a bit...
Kain wrote:I was kind of thinking that people would jump on the Gazghkull vs the Swarmlord question like dogs on a fresh steak. Hmm..
Plot armored dude vs Ressurection armored dude.
Fiction logic implies either two outcome :
1) Ghazghkull kills the Swarmlord because the Swarmlord can be ressurected while Ghazghkull can't
2) Swarmlord kills Ghazghkull, but only as Yarrick arrives, so that Yarrick can vow to eternally hunt the beast that denied him his vengeance (or some horrible non-sensical crap like that)
Your number one is messed up good sir, here let a good fellow ork such as me help you out
1) Gazghkull kills the Swarmlord, then after awhile figures out that all the HT that are really hard to kill is actually the Swarmlord ressurected. When he finds this out he starts huntin him untill finally the Hive mind just thinks that he is losing Bio-resources and stops ressurecting the Swarmlord. Ghazghkull is Unstoppable IMO
Considering the Swarmlord might have participated in the extinction of multiple galaxies, you might want to relativize that 'Ghazghkull is Unstoppable' statment a bit...
Yes lets see how many times the Swarmlord has been killed to how many times Gazghkull has been killed shall we .
The Swarmlord has an distinctive enough appearance so that I think Gazghkull would be able to identify that it's being resurrected again and again. After all, no other hive tyrant carries four boneswords.
I thought this pertinent to the discussion, since something that always comes up is how many Tyranids are there.
There's a few theories on the current attacks, whether they're all thats left, whether they're the tip of the iceberg flooding in, and others. The 6th edition rulebook sheds some more light.
Page 215, box out 'The Hive Fleets', second paragraph.
"Unbeknownst to the Imperium, the threat is of an even greater magnitude, for the bulk of the Tyranids have not yet reached the Imperiums galaxy, their masses still strewn across the void'.
Seems GW confirmed the 'tip of the iceberg' theory, with most of the Tyranid race still coming.
considering like the secound sentence in the main rulebook is their is only war then their can never be a winner to the great war, besides why would the orks want to win, then they couldnt fight em no more, yeah they would win but they wouldnt so they could keep fightin orks ftw
6th Edition says each Hive Fleet is a million Bio-Ships each with millions of Tyranids on board. And that the Hive Fleets encountered is just a splinter of the furthest tendril of the main fleet in the void.
In a fight between orks and Tyranids, you can't forget that as it says in almost every Tyranid book, the Tyranids are an unfathomably huge organism and the hive fleets are simply forward scouts, like the fingers of the Hive Mind's massive body. The orks' best fight with the Tyranids, against the Ghorala swarm in the Octarius system, is a stalemate (which the Tyranids will most likely win) against a small tendril of one hive fleet. If you look at the map in the Tyranid codex, you'll see that it is one VERY small tendril. I think the real contest should be between the owners of the universe. Daemons Vs. Tyranids - Chaos gods Vs. Hive Mind.
It would depend. if the orks managed to get fortified on the majority of planets before the tyranid's came en masse then they would win, once orks are fortified in theres no moving them. but like people said on page 1, if the tyranids gather momentum they cant be stopped, each battle lost is biomass the tyranids can never regainn If the orks dont let em get a foothold on a single planet then the tyranids will crumble and will probably move on to find an easier galaxy as they will be unable to get any biomass whatsoever, Theres alot of them but they arent infinite. they also wont be able to adapt to fight orks, you need to compare the tyranids instant ability to fight orks that wont get any better to the orks ability to adapt to fighting a foe that will improve infinitely as they gain more experience and grow, an ork who manages to survive every battle will eventually grow bigger than anything the tyranids can throw at them that wont be a waste of biomass. I also belive that if you get enough orks on the planet the psychic waaagh that would be generated would couter and even block out the tyranid synapse, and without there unrivaled leadership abilities the tyranids would be annhialated. not only that but if the orks managed to put 2 and 2 together and work out how to beat the tyranids they would all go cybork and simply deny the tyranids the ability to adapt to them in the same method that the tyranids cant adapt to the necrons and run scared from em...
But at the end of the day it wont matter because if all the orks managed to unite then mankind would be long gone, as would the astronomican and thus the tyranids nightlight in the warp would be gone and they would no longer be able to find the galaxy...
even so, none of the above will matter when the necrons reseal the warp
Nazgren wrote:But at the end of the day it wont matter because if all the orks managed to unite then mankind would be long gone, as would the astronomican and thus the tyranids nightlight in the warp would be gone and they would no longer be able to find the galaxy...
Since when can they only find the galaxy because of the astronomican? The astronomican doesn't even reach the boundaries of the galaxy, so it didn't lure them to the galaxy in the first place. It's just that, since they're here, they might go check out the huge 'free buffet here' sign.
There was a bit of background that said that the Nids were being drawn to our Galaxy because of the Astonomicon. I can't remember where I read it unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure it is something recent!
It would be somewhat ironic if in protecting the Imperium, by making space travel through the warp possible, the Emperor is unknowingly planting the seeds of the eventual destruction of mankind.
Yori wrote:The ones not taking any part of this, unless the Tyrannids win, because then they will be even more numerous.
But I'll cast my vote on the orks, eventually they will figure that they have to kill the "big unz" first. Right?
Actually, the "kill the big ones" approach has failed the Imperium many times. Size does not always indicate whether not a Tyranid is a synapse creature. The Tyranid Warrior Primes are a good example of this.
Back on topic. I'm going to go against the Ork bandwagon. If it were only the Tyranids already in the galaxy, the Orks would win. But if it was every hive fleet and every Tyranid in those hive fleets, the Tyranids would probably win.
Remember, Ork spores are biomass, so the Tyranids would probably consume many Ork spores before they grew into anything.
Yori wrote:The ones not taking any part of this, unless the Tyrannids win, because then they will be even more numerous.
But I'll cast my vote on the orks, eventually they will figure that they have to kill the "big unz" first. Right?
Actually, the "kill the big ones" approach has failed the Imperium many times. Size does not always indicate whether not a Tyranid is a synapse creature. The Tyranid Warrior Primes are a good example of this.
Back on topic. I'm going to go against the Ork bandwagon. If it were only the Tyranids already in the galaxy, the Orks would win. But if it was every hive fleet and every Tyranid in those hive fleets, the Tyranids would probably win.
Remember, Ork spores are biomass, so the Tyranids would probably consume many Ork spores before they grew into anything.
Exactly. the Tyranids could simply harvest Orks. They won't, but they could.
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Nazgren wrote:It would depend. if the orks managed to get fortified on the majority of planets before the tyranid's came en masse then they would win, once orks are fortified in theres no moving them. but like people said on page 1, if the tyranids gather momentum they cant be stopped, each battle lost is biomass the tyranids can never regainn If the orks dont let em get a foothold on a single planet then the tyranids will crumble and will probably move on to find an easier galaxy as they will be unable to get any biomass whatsoever, Theres alot of them but they arent infinite. they also wont be able to adapt to fight orks, you need to compare the tyranids instant ability to fight orks that wont get any better to the orks ability to adapt to fighting a foe that will improve infinitely as they gain more experience and grow, an ork who manages to survive every battle will eventually grow bigger than anything the tyranids can throw at them that wont be a waste of biomass. I also belive that if you get enough orks on the planet the psychic waaagh that would be generated would couter and even block out the tyranid synapse, and without there unrivaled leadership abilities the tyranids would be annhialated. not only that but if the orks managed to put 2 and 2 together and work out how to beat the tyranids they would all go cybork and simply deny the tyranids the ability to adapt to them in the same method that the tyranids cant adapt to the necrons and run scared from em...
But at the end of the day it wont matter because if all the orks managed to unite then mankind would be long gone, as would the astronomican and thus the tyranids nightlight in the warp would be gone and they would no longer be able to find the galaxy...
even so, none of the above will matter when the necrons reseal the warp
Orks are probably the worst fortifiers in the 40k fluff, while Tyranids are possibly the best assaulters. As for not adapting to orks, these guys can out-adapt the Tau. Their whole theme is being a super-predator that can adapt to anything and always win in the end. and if the orks can become bigger than the Tyranids by winning a lot of battles, then I'll count my lucky stars that I've never had the misfortune of playing against a Hierophant-sized Ghazkgull. And if the Waaagh is psychic, then it should be shut down by the hive mind's shadow in the warp before it can become any kind of threat to the synapse. Also, the Tyranids are attracted to the Milky way because of the insane turbulence in the warp, what with the Eye of Terror, Chaos gods being born, C'tan being released, warp rifts appearing daily, all combined with the astronomican. Finally, if (when) the Necrons seal the warp, the Tyranids will really take over, because they are one of the few races who don't use the warp at all.
Pacific wrote:There was a bit of background that said that the Nids were being drawn to our Galaxy because of the Astonomicon. I can't remember where I read it unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure it is something recent!
I know what fluff he's referring to, but that's not what it says. It says they are drawn to it - nothing more. This makes sense because psychic beacons are how Tyranid vanguards attract hive fleets to worlds. So the astronomican is basically a huge free meal sign to them.
It does NOT say it drew them to the galaxy, because it didn't. There's uncontradicted fluff that says the astronomican barely reaches the western fringe of the galaxy, and actually doesn't reach the eastern fringe. Since the Tyranids first attacked from the Eastern fringe, the astronomican attracting them to the actual galaxy can't have happened. Simply doesn't work with the established fluff of the astronomican. But as I said, established fluff does support them seeing it as a huge Tyranid vanguard.
So basically - it drew them to the galaxy? No, and that wasnt what was written in that fluff. Drawing them when they got in the galaxy? Absolutely.
Harriticus wrote:6th Edition says each Hive Fleet is a million Bio-Ships each with millions of Tyranids on board. And that the Hive Fleets encountered is just a splinter of the furthest tendril of the main fleet in the void.
Tyranid numbers put even Orks to shame.
I disagree. There are allot of Tyranids, no doubt, but I think people are underestimateing the size of Ork and Human forces due to the size of numbers involved. I don't see it as one sided "Tyranids eat all and win" as people think. Each Hive Fleet might contain a billion Tyranids, but a single hive planet has more people than that. Armageddon has 6 times that, Terra is in the hundreds of billions. Armageddon alone is probably large enough to out number the Tyranids in the galaxy at the moment (obviously not out fight, but I'm just trying to give people a handle on the numbers).
Whilst the Tyranids are a massive threat the numbers are not as overwhelming as people seem to think.
Hunchkrot wrote: Orks are probably the worst fortifiers in the 40k fluff
oh really? looks like it worked for Octanus...
-Loki- wrote:
Pacific wrote:There was a bit of background that said that the Nids were being drawn to our Galaxy because of the Astonomicon. I can't remember where I read it unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure it is something recent!
I know what fluff he's referring to, but that's not what it says. It says they are drawn to it - nothing more. This makes sense because psychic beacons are how Tyranid vanguards attract hive fleets to worlds. So the astronomican is basically a huge free meal sign to them.
It does NOT say it drew them to the galaxy, because it didn't. There's uncontradicted fluff that says the astronomican barely reaches the western fringe of the galaxy, and actually doesn't reach the eastern fringe. Since the Tyranids first attacked from the Eastern fringe, the astronomican attracting them to the actual galaxy can't have happened. Simply doesn't work with the established fluff of the astronomican. But as I said, established fluff does support them seeing it as a huge Tyranid vanguard.
So basically - it drew them to the galaxy? No, and that wasnt what was written in that fluff. Drawing them when they got in the galaxy? Absolutely.
yeah, your right, current nid book page 28: "Little do the high lords know that it is the Astronomican itself that lures the tyranids towards terra..." Terra, but not the milky way
The tyranids cant out adapt the orks or they would have done it already. The orks are the most widespread race there is so that means that the tyranids fight the orks more then 30 percent of the time. If the tyranids could out adapt the orks they would have.
Hunchkrot wrote:
Orks are probably the worst fortifiers in the 40k fluff
oh really? looks like it worked for Octanus...
My mistake, I completely forgot that the orks of the octarius system easily repulsed Hive fleet Leviathan. What's that? Oh! you're totally right! the Tyranids are winning, and while it is taking time, they have already taken many worlds including the original Ghorala, Derragon, and Keltor. The ork warboss is dead. The orks are only still alive because there are simply too many to kill off quickly.
The imperials are amassing "Thousands of regiments and dozens of space marine chapters to combat the hive fleet. Several Eldar craftworlds have begun to burn worlds to a cinder, employing ancient weapons of destruction not used in milennia. The Tau are developing new technologies and weaponry to fight the Tyranids. So far these efforts are succeeding in slowing the hive fleet, but it is only a matter of time before Leviathan adapts."-Tyranid codex, page 31-The Ghorala Swarm.
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willhman wrote:The tyranids cant out adapt the orks or they would have done it already. The orks are the most widespread race there is so that means that the tyranids fight the orks more then 30 percent of the time. If the tyranids could out adapt the orks they would have.
You're right, because Orks are all the same size, equally smart, equally gifted, and use the same tactics.. Just like humans! Every Tyranid the orks have met has been killed. Just look at your precious Octarius war for proof on Tyranid adapting ability.
White dwarf also updated the Octarius fluff. The Swarmlord has killed several more aspiring Warbosses and the Tyranids have taken 2 or 3 of the planets continents. The Orks are fighting back better than any other race has, but are still being pushed back.
Orks win. It would take till the end of time but the orks would win.
Don't Tyranids cause all biomatter on a planet to go crazy? Don't they make plants grow huge so there is more to eat when the swarms land?
Orks are plants. The spores would florish in the hours before the swarm proper arrives.
The the orks would breed as needed. More tyranids? More orks!
Ork tek defies logic and physics. What if a Mek created a guargant that had a suppa shokk attack gun that sucked up the swarms frontlines and just hurled uneddible chaotic goo back at the big bugs?
Orks grow as they become more powerful. In a few years time satalite images would see biotitans and ork bosses thesize of cities headbutting one another!
And orks are excellent at sanitizing worlds. Burna boys ftw.
DeffDred wrote:Orks win. It would take till the end of time but the orks would win.
Don't Tyranids cause all biomatter on a planet to go crazy? Don't they make plants grow huge so there is more to eat when the swarms land?
Orks are plants. The spores would florish in the hours before the swarm proper arrives.
The the orks would breed as needed. More tyranids? More orks!
Ork tek defies logic and physics. What if a Mek created a guargant that had a suppa shokk attack gun that sucked up the swarms frontlines and just hurled uneddible chaotic goo back at the big bugs?
Orks grow as they become more powerful. In a few years time satalite images would see biotitans and ork bosses thesize of cities headbutting one another!
And orks are excellent at sanitizing worlds. Burna boys ftw.
Oh yeah? Well what if the Tyranids had a gun that sprayed anti-ork acid all over everything? what if they put glue on the orks feet so that they couldn't move? what if the Tyranids teamed up with the imperium and the Hive Mind and Emperor became great pals and played warhammer Fantasy on the weekend?
Seriously though, your argument has a few too many "what ifs". I might even venture to say that not one sentence of that post is even partially valid. Also, spores are a fungus thing.
Honestly IMHO its hard to say. Remember the bigger the fight the more orks are drawn to the scrap, like (green) moths to candle flame. If the Octarius war gets big enough, orks from here to Armageddon will come running as fast as they can. Even then though I don't know if they'll win (and I'm an ork fanboi I cannot lie).
As to the whole tip of the iceberg thing, I'd rather leave that out, just because all factions have that card, its GW's way of making everything whoa, grimdark!
If the orks ever unite ----!!!!
If the main tyranid fleets ever show up -----!!!!!
If the ancient necron empire ever fully awakens ---!!!!
If chaos demons, CSM and LatD ever unite (again) ----- !!!!!
If the Tau, oh wait never mind
rabidaskal wrote:As to the whole tip of the iceberg thing, I'd rather leave that out, just because all factions have that card, its GW's way of making everything whoa, grimdark!
That's cool, we'll ignore that fluff. Since "more Orks turn up the bigger a fight gets" is pretty much the Ork equivalent, we'll ignore that too.
Anyone got some other fluff they want to ignore to make their argument actually work?
Harriticus wrote:6th Edition says each Hive Fleet is a million Bio-Ships each with millions of Tyranids on board. And that the Hive Fleets encountered is just a splinter of the furthest tendril of the main fleet in the void.
Tyranid numbers put even Orks to shame.
I disagree. There are allot of Tyranids, no doubt, but I think people are underestimateing the size of Ork and Human forces due to the size of numbers involved. I don't see it as one sided "Tyranids eat all and win" as people think. Each Hive Fleet might contain a billion Tyranids, but a single hive planet has more people than that. Armageddon has 6 times that, Terra is in the hundreds of billions. Armageddon alone is probably large enough to out number the Tyranids in the galaxy at the moment (obviously not out fight, but I'm just trying to give people a handle on the numbers).
Whilst the Tyranids are a massive threat the numbers are not as overwhelming as people seem to think.
Actually you are mistaken here. We do have numbers to work with.
The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion (3rd edition 40K rulebook, p. 114). The 5th edition rulebook on p. 115 estimates there to be 3.238 * 10^4 or 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium. If all 1,000,000 worlds of the Imperium were hive worlds with 500 billion people that is 5 * 10^17. That is an UPPER limit for the Imperium's population because we know that not all worlds are maximum population hive worlds.
Minea from that page in the 5th edition rulebook is described as a typical example of a hive world, and it has 154 billion population, well under the 500 billion maximum. Assume we are still generous and give all hive worlds a population of 250 billion to account for less populated worlds elsewhere in the Imperium. 32,380 hive worlds of 250 billion population each is 8.095 * 10^15.
As for the Tyranids:
A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy yet each one is no more than a single cell in the living body of the hive mind, the devourer of worlds. (2nd edition Tyranid Codex, p. 4)
That quote is post Behemoth and post Kraken, so even after 2 Hive fleets there are still 10^18, which is greater than the most optimistic estimate of the upper limit of the Imperium's population.
rabidaskal wrote:As to the whole tip of the iceberg thing, I'd rather leave that out, just because all factions have that card, its GW's way of making everything whoa, grimdark!
That's cool, we'll ignore that fluff. Since "more Orks turn up the bigger a fight gets" is pretty much the Ork equivalent, we'll ignore that too.
Anyone got some other fluff they want to ignore to make their argument actually work?
If we don't ignore that fluff, then yes the tyranids auto-win. Is that what you wanted to hear? Its correct but makes very boring discussion.
And the orks have no equivalent because even vs the tyranids current in the galaxy, the "tip of the iceberg", I don't know if they can win. Ergo much less so against the rest of the iceberg.
plus, tyranids don't really gang up on bigger enemies like orks do
(the most dangerous clan out there if you ask me) and the nids are gonna lose cause this empire has not only defended well against the empire but have manage to make several nice counter attacks in return. So yeah that is my fav ork empire place ever!!!!!!!!! 
. thats my opionon you dont have to agree. i also agree with most that has been said obove me.
. Both are not that reliant and both are incredibly likely not to work at all. 