I mean come on... Most Imperial Guard regiments are all to the points of extremism. Are there any out there that are just normal, hardy, brave men out to fight and defend the imperium, and their families? But are not fanatic and psychotic to the point of insanity?!

Probably. But they wouldn't make such interesting highlights for the fluff so they don't get written about. That would be my take on it.

htj wrote:Probably. But they wouldn't make such interesting highlights for the fluff so they don't get written about. That would be my take on it.

I would love to read about normal guys going through the insanty that is warhammer 40k.

Yeah, me too! I consider my Guard to be just regular guys, there to do a job to protect their home and loved ones.

Makes for some really tragic battles though.

Yes. There are plenty of Guard regiments that don't have some backstory concerning the destruction of their planet and aren't some kind of 'special forces'.

Any books about them?

Well effectively the Guard are mostly 'normal' regiments but each is moulded by the world & society they come from. With a million planets there's a lot of variations possible and no true 'normal' as all could be described as being normal.

As all the 'major' Guard regiments are inspired by historical armies they will always seem to be extremes because they reflect the period that inspired them - for example the Mordian Iron Guard closely resembles troops of the 1830-1900 period, tight formations & discipline, bright, colourful uniforms, close-order drill, firing in volleys, slightest infraction punished heavily - you get the idea. Tallarn, as another example, mirror 'Laurence of Arabia's' irregular troops from WW1 through to the 7th Armoured 'Desert Rats' of the early 1940s. Death Korp combine French, Belgian, German & British troops of 1900-1918 and reflect the horrors of WW1 - the trenches, attrition, artillery, biological warfare, horror & so on.

I get it. But why not model one out of normal day military. I mean... If i did something wrong when i first joined. i get my ass kicked, but now that i've been in for awhile if i do something wrong its not as big a deal. If I get in trouble with the law then I get demoted and pay taken. I mean come on!!!

I'm sure there are lots of them, you just dont hear about them because they are so far from the action and would rival the tau for not being very grim dark .
I say it would be intersting to make a way behind the lines slacker regiment fresh from beach patrol duty in a place as challenging as the south of france, of say 6000 pts and run them through 20 random 500, 750, 1000, 1500 and 2000pts games without reinforcements outside the 6000pt pool.(guessing you'd have to ignore the FOC for the 6000pts) and see how traumatised you'd think they be at the end....if they made it that far. If a guy lived he'd be the next Marbo lol.

Brother Thomas wrote:I get it. But why not model one out of normal day military. I mean... If i did something wrong when i first joined. i get my ass kicked, but now that i've been in for awhile if i do something wrong its not as big a deal. If I get in trouble with the law then I get demoted and pay taken. I mean come on!!!

I think the Cadians and the Vedolands are the closest major regiment pattern to the modern military in doctrine and aesthetic. Commissars are still needed to blow brains out because with things like Genestealers and Chaos sometimes there's just no saving somebody.

The Cadian's are the staple crop of the Imperial Guard. They are based off of American and British war fighters throughout history and are akin to Starship Troopers pitied against Chaos.

The Catachans are basically Vietnam Vets, so if you're looking for good ole camaraderie against a heart of darkness insanity that's a good place.

The Elysian's are basically the (US) 101st airborne, or the 1st (British), and now embody many aspects of the Marine Corps.


The Vostroyan's might be a stretch as they are basically Cossacks in space, but they are strongly family orientated and would definitely lay down their lives to protect Vostroya if needed to.

Based on real life regiments these true to style warriors of the future characterize what they fought for in antiquity.

Then there are those who aren't really based on a particular regiment, but I'd image the strongest, most real bonds of all exists here, while radicalism being largely absent.

Tanith's First and Only, have nothing but each other to fight for in the service of the Emperor as their homeworld was destroyed.

The Penal Legions - Criminals literally bonded to the service to the Emperor. Either they fight or die as sentence to their crimes. Though absent initially, I'd certainly imagine that the strongest alliances between people are those made in that kind of servitude - if that is they survive long enough to do it.

It's also good to note that the IG needs regular reminders to be as fanatical as it is. Commissars, Commanders, and Priests all shove indoctrination on what we could probably assume to be normal people. As a whole, like any good soldier would tell you, they fight the battles because other men of power told them to. They stayed for those who they fought alongside with. Anything else, is irrelevant and is recognized even by the most fanatical in the Imperium, the Adeptus Astartes. After all, it's a BIG deal when even one of these superhuman warriors die's in His service.

I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

I...what?

Why in the world would you say something like this? Because there's been a joke about "Canadia" for years?

Cadia is not "based on" any one particular country. They are "based on" modern military forces at large, primarily those of the NATO countries.
Their society is not "based on" any one particular country either. If one were to really need to compare them to anyone, it would be Israel or South Korea: countries which are constantly "on a war footing" with soldiers constantly mobilized.

I would assume the large majority of the guard is made up of 'normal' men and women...
At least 95% of it...
We hear about notable regiments. The ones who perform extraordinary deeds through luck or skill.

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

Why would you state that?

In the fluff do they say "Eh" often, or drink crappy lagers?

Likeness of uniform I guess, but then again you might be right. I was certain I had read it at a canon place, but I can't remember it.

The khaki/green uniform is so widespread it's silly.

There's a reason for that. It looks smart, it blends in well with most temperate environments, and it looks smart!

Also that isnt the only IG uniform, even for Guard forces, hell even for Cadian forces.

Plenty of non-Cadians use that camo and plenty of Cadian forces (even the famed 8th Cadian) use different camo schemes depending on the world they are on. Just like at the 3rd Editition IG Codex for some camo examples.

The book you're looking for, when it comes to normal Imperial Guard, is called Fifteen Hours.

99% of Guardsman fall under this category. They are normal people, probably faithful to the Emperor but not to the point of fanaticism. They are fighting because they're being forced to under penalty of death and were traded away from their home as a "tithe" by the Planetary Governor. They will face the greatest horrors in the galaxy and piss their pants throughout most of it. This is especially true for whiteshield conscripts, where large swaths of a planetary population may be raised due to an emergency on a nearby world. A world these guardsman likely never saw.

The regiments we see in the fluff, Cadians, Catachans, Vostroyans, Krieg, Armageddon, Valhallans, Tallarn, Mordian, Tanith. These are all the most famous and elite regiments of the Guard and not representative of the norm. Keep in mind that bar some exceptions (Forge Worlds, Astartes worlds, etc.) every planet of the Imperium has to donate to the Guard. Many of these regiments are just massed of infantry, making fully mechanized forces is too expensive. There are Regiments raised that are armed with muskets and spears.

Brother Thomas wrote:I get it. But why not model one out of normal day military. I mean... If i did something wrong when i first joined. i get my ass kicked, but now that i've been in for awhile if i do something wrong its not as big a deal. If I get in trouble with the law then I get demoted and pay taken. I mean come on!!!

That isn't how the IG functions. They don't dock your pay or give out Article 15s or the like. You get assigned extra details/duties if it's a minor infraction, the medium infractions get you sent to RIP, or flogged, and the bad stuff gets you shot by a Commissar or a firing squad of other Guardsmen. A liberal democracy the Imperium ain't.

Tun_Tau wrote:I'm sure there are lots of them, you just dont hear about them because they are so far from the action and would rival the tau for not being very grim dark .
I say it would be intersting to make a way behind the lines slacker regiment fresh from beach patrol duty in a place as challenging as the south of france, of say 6000 pts and run them through 20 random 500, 750, 1000, 1500 and 2000pts games without reinforcements outside the 6000pt pool.(guessing you'd have to ignore the FOC for the 6000pts) and see how traumatised you'd think they be at the end....if they made it that far. If a guy lived he'd be the next Marbo lol.

Give them bonuses for surviving traumatic events. eg.

A guard squad is charged by Khorne berserkers and manage to somehow survive: All surviving members get +1 WS
A guardsman hits a sniper with stealth at 20" away in 4+ cover (3+ save) and kills him: Guardsman gets +1 BS
A squad of guardsmen makes several leadership tests in a row, constantly holding thier ground: Survivors get +1 Ld
Captain successfully issues half a dozen orders in a game helping to ensure victory: Captain can issue 1 additional order per turn

At the end of the campaign you might end up with like 30 guardsmen and a captain with stats like BS 6 WS 5, Ld 10, and a captain that can issue 5 orders at 24" range

This actually sounds like a cool idea, as long as you combine squads and mark down every squad or guy's stats you could see a cool progression, maybe get some real attachment to some guys. Remember the sergeant who survived 20 battles before being killed by a sniper. Remember the captain who managed to command his company in a bloody siege suffering 50% losses only to be executed by a commissar.

Just want to point out that the Cadian's have British accents in both of the DoW series.. and is still official cannon. GW's posterboy for the IG are the Cadian's, so it'd make sense they took a bit of national pride modeling them after the British modern military (which of course is similar to the American and NATO forces).

"Canon".

"CANON".

Kanluwen wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

I...what?

Why in the world would you say something like this? Because there's been a joke about "Canadia" for years?

Cadia is not "based on" any one particular country. They are "based on" modern military forces at large, primarily those of the NATO countries.
Their society is not "based on" any one particular country either. If one were to really need to compare them to anyone, it would be Israel or South Korea: countries which are constantly "on a war footing" with soldiers constantly mobilized.

Kevlar wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

Why would you state that?

In the fluff do they say "Eh" often, or drink crappy lagers?

I think the bigger question is: Why do you two care so much? LOL. I literally chuckled out loud when I read your responses to his statement. Such surprise.

Depends on what you mean by "normal." The Tanith 1st is made up of pretty normal guys.

What a helpful post.

Truly.

As for the responses to his statement:
It's because it's a silly statement. For quite a few years, there was a running joke(sometimes still brought up) about "Plastic Canadia Shock Troopers"/"Plastic Canadians" because of rumors prior to the release of the plastic Cadian Shock Troops.

@Kanluwen
Uh, you're not talking to me right?

No, KC. You just posted between it.

They are out there, but you are gonna have to make em yourself as it doesn't sell as much as "Special snow flake" units. The closet thing you are gonna find in Canon are the Tanith 1st and they are more tragic then "normal" guys, with a healthy had of Special snow flake NPC's thrown in. Great, great read however.

Gaunt's Ghosts are...normal. Some of them are bastards who will break the rules whenever they can for personal profit.
Some are quiet and decent. Most are somewhere in between.
They're also the most popular and (imo) best written guard novels.

The ethnic Tanith basically have stealth and path finding superpowers but the Verghast and Belladon are quite normal.

jareddm wrote:The book you're looking for, when it comes to normal Imperial Guard, is called Fifteen Hours.

Yes, this is the book you are looking for!
I really enjoyed it (as you can probably tell) because it's about some ordinary 16 year old kid plucked from an ordinary family on an agricultural world who is then mistakenly thrown onto a planet where Imperial forces have been fighting a 20 year trench war against Orks. Seeing the horrors, insanity and general hopelessness of the 40k universe through the eyes of this simple farm boy made it a gripping story in my opinion.

Speaking of the old jokes, I've always heard it as:

Cadia = Canadians

Catachans = Americans

Mordians = British

Valhalla = Russia

and a few even more stereotypical examples.

(Cadians = Canadians due to the whole shock troop reputation they got from WW1, where, Canadians would win and take territories from the Germans where more established armies like Britain and France would fail.)

And yet there's so many others that have fallen by the wayside in older editions. So much potential.

Like the Aztec-like warriors of Patria

or the Bushmen of Serica

or the overly-muscled, blonde-haired men of Kallisti.

jareddm wrote:And yet there's so many others that have fallen by the wayside in older editions. So much potential.

Like the Aztec-like warriors of Patria

or the Bushmen of Serica

or the overly-muscled, blonde-haired men of Kallisti.

Not sure if there is any writing on them, but there was a cool looking regiment in one of the old codexes called the Fornus Lix 'Fire Drakes'. Looked sort of like Cadians with gas masks. Used them as an idea for my army since the gas mask wasn't too hard to make and they looked cool.

I think what the OP is looking for are the Elysian drop troops. They're probably the closest you'll find to comparing to modern military. They're formed into large regiments and also smaller specialised units, and deploy using Valkyries (in the way modern troops can be inserted into a hot zone via helicopter), the Elysian Airborn Assault Carrier and by grav chute.

They don't have their own heavy armour, but do use Sentinels and heavily armed 'buggies'. They are a rapid response force, and in general trained to a higher degree than most regiments with regards to actually hitting what they shoot at.

There isn't really any such thing as 'normal' in the 40k universe. Most individual Guard grunts are just regular guys out to defend their homes, though; one of the more interesting portrayals of that I've seen are the two PDF troopers from the Dark Heresy books that get roped into Inquisitorial schemes.

These are people from different planets the regiments will differ, hell regiments from one planet will differ. That is what makes IG the not only the most numerous but also the most diverse and adaptable professional military force in the galaxy. They have a response to every kind of war zone out there.
Jungle Warfare - Catachans, Drop Troops and raiding - Elyzian and Harakoni, Dessert and hit and run tactic - Tallarn, Arctic Warfare - Valhalla, Urban - Necromunda and Vostroya, Siege - DKoK, Attrition (though in its entirety IG is on its own the best at this kind of war) Armageddon, and so on and so on but the standard for war gear, tactics, discipline is set by the Cadians, they are I guess what you could consider if not "normal" than at least a jack of all trades and master of neither, as they aren't specialized in any kind of warfare (they are how ever the best at fighting Chaos) but are prepared and participate in all kinds.

I like the sound of cadians. If i was a man in the warhammer 40k i would bond my IG platoon into a brotherhood thru leadership. They would not be fanatical martyrs. They would be men of attrition, fighting for the emperor but also survivng for the emperor. After all dead men dont figt. So basically what im saying is my men wouldnt fix bayonets and charge a chaos space marine devastator, lol


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-Loki- wrote:I think what the OP is looking for are the Elysian drop troops. They're probably the closest you'll find to comparing to modern military. They're formed into large regiments and also smaller specialised units, and deploy using Valkyries (in the way modern troops can be inserted into a hot zone via helicopter), the Elysian Airborn Assault Carrier and by grav chute.

They don't have their own heavy armour, but do use Sentinels and heavily armed 'buggies'. They are a rapid response force, and in general trained to a higher degree than most regiments with regards to actually hitting what they shoot at.

Sounds great. But ... are there fanatical commisars running around blowing troopers heads off for minor slip ups?

Probably.

But they were probably killed to a man.

FifteenHours wrote:

jareddm wrote:The book you're looking for, when it comes to normal Imperial Guard, is called Fifteen Hours.

Yes, this is the book you are looking for!
I really enjoyed it (as you can probably tell) because it's about some ordinary 16 year old kid plucked from an ordinary family on an agricultural world who is then mistakenly thrown onto a planet where Imperial forces have been fighting a 20 year trench war against Orks. Seeing the horrors, insanity and general hopelessness of the 40k universe through the eyes of this simple farm boy made it a gripping story in my opinion.

I was on the base library the other day and i started reading a little bit of it, how interesting. That must be fate. I definetely need to read this.

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

We have an army up here?

Brother Thomas wrote:

FifteenHours wrote:

jareddm wrote:The book you're looking for, when it comes to normal Imperial Guard, is called Fifteen Hours.

Yes, this is the book you are looking for!
I really enjoyed it (as you can probably tell) because it's about some ordinary 16 year old kid plucked from an ordinary family on an agricultural world who is then mistakenly thrown onto a planet where Imperial forces have been fighting a 20 year trench war against Orks. Seeing the horrors, insanity and general hopelessness of the 40k universe through the eyes of this simple farm boy made it a gripping story in my opinion.

I was on the base library the other day and i started reading a little bit of it, how interesting. That must be fate. I definetely need to read this.

It is a good book, but please do not make the common misconception.

"Fifteen Hours" is not the life expectancy of Guardsmen in most--if not all warzones. It was for that specific warzone, and explicitly for the troops who get sent in to "reinforce" the forces already groundside.

Brother Thomas wrote:I like the sound of cadians. If i was a man in the warhammer 40k i would bond my IG platoon into a brotherhood thru leadership. They would not be fanatical martyrs. They would be men of attrition, fighting for the emperor but also survivng for the emperor. After all dead men dont figt. So basically what im saying is my men wouldnt fix bayonets and charge a chaos space marine devastator, lol


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-Loki- wrote:I think what the OP is looking for are the Elysian drop troops. They're probably the closest you'll find to comparing to modern military. They're formed into large regiments and also smaller specialised units, and deploy using Valkyries (in the way modern troops can be inserted into a hot zone via helicopter), the Elysian Airborn Assault Carrier and by grav chute.

They don't have their own heavy armour, but do use Sentinels and heavily armed 'buggies'. They are a rapid response force, and in general trained to a higher degree than most regiments with regards to actually hitting what they shoot at.

Sounds great. But ... are there fanatical commisars running around blowing troopers heads off for minor slip ups?

To my knowledge, the only popular regiment that doesn't really use commissars too heavily are the Catachans, most get fragged by the men, when they are used. IIRC, Gaunt is the only Commissar amongst the Tanith First.

Cadians do not use Commissars, actually.

Their commissioned officers, per "Cadian Blood", are described as having the option to undergo training to serve as "morale officers". It's implied in both "Cadian Blood" and the far, far earlier "Codex: Eye of Terror" that to be assigned a Commissar is a pretty big insult to a Cadian regiment.

No Gaunt is not. Ludd and Hark are there as well, so are several others. Heck one is even fragged (none of the three named of course).

Beaviz81 wrote:No Gaunt is not. Ludd and Hark are there as well, so are several others. Heck one is even fragged (none of the three named of course).

Sorry, I haven't gotten past book 3 yet, only started a short while ago.

Wow very interesting. Its shameful to be a commisar. But as you all know i am an infatntryman in the marines and i know how the chain of command works. To the cadians not have a chain of command: team leader, squad leader, platoon sergeant, and the platoon commander (commisar)?

Brother Thomas wrote:Wow very interesting. Its shameful to be a commissar.

I wouldn't say that. But I'll explain more in a minute.

But as you all know i am an infatntryman in the marines and i know how the chain of command works. To the cadians not have a chain of command: team leader, squad leader, platoon sergeant, and the platoon commander (commisar)?

Commissars != Platoon Commanders.

Commissars in actual command positions are rare; Gaunt is implied to be a very very very rare example of this.

As to the explanation, what you have to consider is this.
Cadia is a world which has--effectively--been under siege since the end of the Horus Heresy. It is the first world that gets hit whenever the traitor filth comes pouring out of the Eye of Terror with a veritable tide of the lost and the damned rolling out with them in the form of tides of mutants, heretics, and traitors.

Since the end of the Horus Heresy though, how many times do you think Cadia has actually fallen to the point where it was no longer really possible to say that it was in Imperial control?
The answer is once(Look up the aftermath of the "13th Black Crusade" event).
Cadia did not have commissars at the start. They don't need them; the world is unswervingly Imperial. To even imply that the Cadian Shock Troops require someone to "watch them" is an insult beyond the pale. They handle their business themselves. They root traitors out amongst their forces themselves, they root out heretics amongst their forces themselves, and deal with them accordingly.
Hell, Cadia's military even has a permanent seconding of Inquisitors enmeshed within their forces--with the Inquisitors being Cadians themselves.

There is one IG book about normal guardsmen, It's called 15 hours or something. Just about some guy who accidently gets rerouted to a war torn planet and how he surivves. Very good read, I highly recommend it.

nkon117 wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

We have an army up here?

Really? Really? 11 Years in Afghanistan with no Army....but I digress.

I get that its an insult to have someone watch over them because commisars are not equivlent to a platoon commander. Very interesting. I figured they would have them to come up with tactical planning and battle orders. So they would be organized and have someone to do administrative work for them. Perhaps i am overthinking this

Commissars are responsible for the discipline and that the officers are competent, so they must be excellent raters of skill and potential in order to do their job properly as it fall on their feet if soldiers break rank and flee due to inadequate leadership. There the political side of them comes into play, as I think they often do the recommendations for promotions and demotions (I'm now assuming not all of them are psychotic 24/7) when they see fit, and the officers under their command would likely follow that recommendation unless they have a very good reason to say nay.

Lightcavalier wrote:

nkon117 wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

We have an army up here?

Really? Really? 11 Years in Afghanistan with no Army....but I digress.

Come on guys lets keep it warhammer specific. And yes the canadian army has been fighting in afghan...

Brother Thomas wrote:I get that its an insult to have someone watch over them because commisars are not equivlent to a platoon commander. Very interesting. I figured they would have them to come up with tactical planning and battle orders. So they would be organized and have someone to do administrative work for them. Perhaps i am overthinking this

Commissars are present to maintain discipline.
They technically are separate from the chain of command and they technically have the authority to execute almost anyone they deem fit.
Of course if they start shooting high level officers or officers for no reason they will be executed as well...

Too funny. The guys in my platoon used to joke around about our higher ups executing us "pawns"

Brother Thomas wrote:I get that its an insult to have someone watch over them because commisars are not equivalent to a platoon commander. Very interesting.

Well no. It's the implication that Cadians "can't be trusted". It would be like if you had to have a member of Human Rights Watch with you on every patrol to ensure you're not calling down airstrikes on houses because they're in the way of your patrol route.

The fact that Commissars don't have a command rank has nothing to do with it. Cadians are raised to be loyal to the Imperium, no matter what. They've seen what happens when you break faith with the Imperium. They've fought hideous mutants and traitors who've given themselves over to the Xenos or Chaos. They know what lies that way. They don't need some pretentious offworlder standing behind them, yelling at them to move forward and waving a sword around like a loon. Especially not when they've got a nice, defensible position.

I figured they would have them to come up with tactical planning and battle orders.So they would be organized and have someone to do administrative work for them.

The officers and their aides come up with the strategic portions, the commissars might or might not have input. It depends on the Commissar in question as to whether or not they get involved.

Brother Thomas wrote:

Lightcavalier wrote:

nkon117 wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

We have an army up here?

Really? Really? 11 Years in Afghanistan with no Army....but I digress.

Come on guys lets keep it warhammer specific. And yes the canadian army has been fighting in afghan...

Sorry about that....but as an officer in the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps I was mildly offended.

Back on topic...

The broad strokes of the Imperial Guard are formatted like the Russians of the interwar/2nd world war period.

The Chain of command still went Section, Platoon, Coy, on up....but at any level the the Party representatives had the authority to keep the soldiers (of any rank) in line with Party goals and directives.
As well, in their system, being at a tactical and often technical disadvantage the concept of mission command was nonexistent...units would achiver their objective regardless of cost.


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The Eastern Front of WW2 was often refered to as a 4 way war between
1. the Wermacht and the Red Army
2. The Red army and the Commisserat
3. German High Command and the Wermacht
4. The Commiserate and German High Command


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Its not that Commisars outrank their soldiering counterparts, its that they are "CoEqual" in rank to them. Just with the authority of the Governement and higher commisars behind them instead of High Command.

Ah i get it. Commisars are just attachments and there are actual officers who are part of the plt


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How does recruitment go for IG, do they have to serve for life, can they volunteer, or do they serve for a alloted time contract?

It varies. Just like in real life military, conscription, you can do it French Foreign Army-style, you can be condemned to military service for your sins (not necessary a Penal legion as many gangers becomes ad-hoc IG-regiments) and the list goes on.

Depends on the world.

All (or almost all) cadians are drafted into their army....because they are busy blocking the entrance of the Eye of Terror

The majority of the population of Kreig are drafted, as they are being grown for just that purpose

On Vostroya the first son of every family must join the Regiment

Elysians are all volunteers who have surfed a tour of duty in the Elysian PDF.

Etc.

Elysians are pretty cool. I like that they volunteer

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Elysian_Drop_Troops

Lots of good info. Elysians are really the closest in structure and operations to a modern professional military.

Lightcavalier wrote:Depends on the world.

All (or almost all) cadians are drafted into their army....because they are busy blocking the entrance of the Eye of Terror

Wrong. They actively volunteer. To get a spot in a Shock Troop Regiment is a big honor to the Cadians. The training that the Youth Armies undergo is described in "Malleus", with Eisenhorn noting constant lasfire and artillery shots in the wilderness where the Youth Armies are engaged in active combat against one another.

They do not feth around when it comes to training. If the ammunition isn't live, it's not a Cadian training regime.

The majority of the population of Kreig are drafted, as they are being grown for just that purpose

Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

Much like the Cadians, the Krieg fight each other for the chance to be actually recruited.

On Vostroya the first son of every family must join the Regiment

No, they must join a regiment. Vostroya does not have one single regiment.
Their regiments are referred to as "Vostroyan Firstborns" for a reason.

Elysians are all volunteers who have surfed a tour of duty in the Elysian PDF.

What does surfing have to do with anything?

Oh. Serving.
Anyways, the Drop Troop regiments are on the basis of "all volunteers". They likely have actual, standard Guard regiments as well where the majority of Elysians will serve.
I should also add that the Elysians do not "serve a tour of duty in the Elysian PDF". They serve a tour of duty on board of Imperial Navy vessels or Rogue Traders who operate in-system to act as marines/ship security due to the propensity of Ork and traitor pirates in the Elysian system.



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Brother Thomas wrote:Ah i get it. Commisars are just attachments and there are actual officers who are part of the plt

Yep. A regiment has its own command structure, and Commissars are outside of that. Commissars are almost always not going to be of the homeworld of the regiment they're assigned to, hailing instead from a Schola Progenium. The Schola Progenium is a system of schools/orphanages run across the Imperium where they train Commissars, Stormtroopers, and the Sisters of Battle.

How does recruitment go for IG, do they have to serve for life, can they volunteer, or do they serve for a alloted time contract?

All except for the last one.

If you join the Guard: you serve for life, unless your regiment does something particularly heroic or is almost wiped out.
If you do the first one: you might just win settlement rights to the world you were fighting on.
If you do the second one: you might be mustered out due to horrific injuries and moved to a rear area to serve as training advisers.

Beaviz81 wrote:I guess the Cadians sort of are based on the modern military of Canada, and not all of them are people eating demons for breakfast.

You mean the Cadians just take time off while they rely on their neighbor planets to protect them?

As for Black Library about regular guardsmen, I'd suggest 15 Hours. No crazy ice/desert/jungle planet regiments. Just plain men, pushed through training, and dumped into a warzone.

Can people please stop bringing up the Cadian-Canadians? This is why I thought so much http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canadian_Forces_Browning_Hi-Power.jpg

Kanluwen wrote:Wrong. They actively volunteer. To get a spot in a Shock Troop Regiment is a big honor to the Cadians. The training that the Youth Armies undergo is described in "Malleus", with Eisenhorn noting constant lasfire and artillery shots in the wilderness where the Youth Armies are engaged in active combat against one another.

They do not feth around when it comes to training. If the ammunition isn't live, it's not a Cadian training regime.

No, they are all drafted, it may be considered an honour to fight, but whether you want to or not, you are fighting. Granted there is a good chance that you will end up in the interior guard (IIRC joining the interior guard is based purely on chance, rather than taking the left overs), but you still are forced to fight for the Imperium.

Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

Much like the Cadians, the Krieg fight each other for the chance to be actually recruited.

IIRC it is outright stated somewhere that Krieg relies on cloning. Now, I wouldn't go so far to say that most or even a large portion of their forces are cloned, but Krieg does do cloning to an extent. It allows them to field more regiments than they would normally be capable of.

Oh I seem to have read soldiers can serve for allotted time. That's usually at least one decade. But combat-attrittion can make a regiment retire before it should. As the normal activation period of an unreinforced regiment is 10-20 years before they gets too old to fight.

Buttons wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Wrong. They actively volunteer. To get a spot in a Shock Troop Regiment is a big honor to the Cadians. The training that the Youth Armies undergo is described in "Malleus", with Eisenhorn noting constant lasfire and artillery shots in the wilderness where the Youth Armies are engaged in active combat against one another.

They do not feth around when it comes to training. If the ammunition isn't live, it's not a Cadian training regime.

No, they are all drafted, it may be considered an honour to fight, but whether you want to or not, you are fighting. Granted there is a good chance that you will end up in the interior guard (IIRC joining the interior guard is based purely on chance, rather than taking the left overs), but you still are forced to fight for the Imperium.

It's not a "draft" if you join before you are to be considered for drafting.

It's incorrect to say that they're "draftees" when in fact they're an all-volunteer force.
I'm just sayin' here. It's a terminology issue certainly, and a bit of nitpicking but it is a difference.
"Draftee" armies tend to have a stigma of being low on morale, training, etc. "Volunteer" forces tend to give the mental imagery of one which is a highly skilled force, dedicated to their training and trade.

Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

Much like the Cadians, the Krieg fight each other for the chance to be actually recruited.

IIRC it is outright stated somewhere that Krieg relies on cloning. Now, I wouldn't go so far to say that most or even a large portion of their forces are cloned, but Krieg does do cloning to an extent. It allows them to field more regiments than they would normally be capable of.

It is not outright stated that they "rely on cloning" to field their regiments, anywhere, except in fan fiction and speculation. Most of this comes from the Vitae-Womb mention and the fact that most of the Death Korps do not have actual names, but rather service numbers.

The problem is that we have one particular thing in the fluff which will alter whether or not they do rely on cloning or just simple genetic manipulation.
The Vitae-Wombs.
What little we know about them suggests that they are the women of Krieg...altered in some way and kept alive to serve as birthing factories for the next generations of troops.

It Cadian Karshkin. Not Storm Troopers. Storm Troopers are great, Karshkin is marginally better. They are the third best fighters in the IOM.

"Kasrkin".

And quite frankly, Kasrkin are hard enough to give pause to Eisenhorn-- a man who faced down a traitor Astartes. "Third best fighter in the Imperium" is incorrect, as they're said to be a step under the Astartes.

No the Sisters of Battle is second.

Says who? Sisters fans?

No. They're capable combatants, certainly, but they're not Kasrkin capable.

Power Armor does not make one "better". Training does. Kasrkin are the cream of a crop of Guard which are actively recognized by the Astartes as being the "finest soldiery of the Imperium".

By all cause, the Sisters of Battle has almost supernatural power due to their faith. They are almost as tough as a Space Marine, likely with the attrition similar to the Grey Knights. Their shield of faith will usually best a Kasrkin. Fine fighters, but not like the Sisters of Battle.

Okay, so now you're relying upon an example of some "supernatural power" to put Sisters above a group of individuals who, per an example we have of them from "Malleus" took a freaking combat knife to a Daemonhost.

I'll let you think about that some more.

I know about the scene, I just think the SOB are superior to them.

The Kasrkin are as good as a human being can hope to be in combat unaugmented. The Sisters of Battle have their tremendous faith to the Emperor guiding them in battle and would easily do the same with their combat-knives against a daemon-host if it was them there and not the Kasrkin. One on one a Sister of Battle beat a Kasrkin.

So again:

You're not basing it off any real actual evidence. You're just basing it off your opinion.

Never mind that Kasrkin have a reputation across the galaxy as being the hardest troops the Imperium fields outside of the Astartes.
Never mind that they are given genetic enhancements and various minor augmentations.

Clearly, power armor and some bizarre manifestation of "faith"(which clearly doesn't help them as much as you think it does, considering how often they're slaughtered--even in their own Convents) are better than natural skill, training, and discipline.

How many people do you think can kill a Hive Tyrant in single combat without a blank around? http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Praxedes#.T5wuwtnLnBE she can, that's canon. That's like charging the demonhost and killing it.

Beaviz81 wrote:How many people do you think can kill a Hive Tyrant in single combat without a blank around?

Quite a few members of the Astartes and Inquisition?
"Blanks around" isn't a common circumstance by the way, certainly not to the point where it makes this woman doing this anything special. It's not anything commonly used to fight the Tyranids either. So...that point is moot.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Praxedes#.T5wuwtnLnBE she can, that's canon.

That's from 2nd edition. It says it is also in WD #379, but the link is in red which usually means "unverified".

That's like charging the demonhost and killing it.

No, it's really not. It's like a powered armored human fighting a Hive Tyrant in close combat, then dying shortly after(note: it says she's known as the "first martyr to Kraken").

There is a huge difference between a highly trained and skilled fighter wearing carapace armor charging a supernaturally strong foe with a combat knife and a trained and skilled fighter wearing powered armor, a refractor field equivalent, and power weapons charging a Hive Tyrant.

Also:
Please remember, there is a fluff reason that the Swarmlord has been 'created' by the Hive Mind.

Hive Tyrants are nowhere near as effective in combat as you think they are.

The look at the stats, the Sorortias have 4 in toughness, same as the Space Marines. Anyway, the difference is less than the difference between a Sororita and a Space Marine as I think the Karskin hands down are the finest human fighters without any augmentation. Also the Sisters of Battle are extremely skilled, they are the cream of thousands of Schola Progeniums, sent to two convents. There even more is flushed out, so only a few thousands of several millions are made to serve there. The attrition-rate is atrocious.

The second I thought was to make Calgar scream "Screeed!"

Kasrkin have augmentations...

Kanluwen wrote:

Lightcavalier wrote:The majority of the population of Kreig are drafted, as they are being grown for just that purpose

Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

Actually it's not speculation. From Siege of Vraks Part I, page 87, 5th paragraph;

Siege of Vraks wrote:"The maximum tithe levels were enforced, Krieg's sole purpose was to turn out Death Korps soldiers as another world might mine ore or sow wheat. By the direct order of the Lords of Terra nothing was to be allowed to interfere with this purpose. This has resulted in suspect practices being tolerated - some, such as the eugenic policies designed to weed out mutants caused by Krieg's damaged biosphere, universal conscription, etc, are continuations of Krieg's centuries of civil war. But others such as the enforced use of 'Vitae-Womb' birthing techniques are little known outside of the Adeptus Biologis and are seen as dangerous and abhorrent by many Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis."

That is all taken, word perfect, from Siege of Vraks, Part I. I bolded a relevant part, the universal conscription.

If Krieg was not purposefully 'growing' Korpsmen, why would they be allowed to use the banned 'Vitae-womb' birthing technique? Why would they have an edict from the Lords of Terra making sure nothing interefered with their production of Guardsmen? I shall go on to quote this as well;

Siege of Vraks wrote:As Krieg stands today it is a true war-world, its tithes are the maximum possible for the planet's population, raising tens of regiments every year where a comparable sized world might be expected to tithe one regiment every decade. The rate of attrition and destruction among these regiments is likewise disproportionately high, as they are assigned to some of the most hazardous battlefields and dangerous worlds known to Man.

Beaviz81 wrote:The look at the stats, the Sorortias have 4 in toughness, same as the Space Marines.

That's not because of any kind of "enhancements". It's because of powered armor.

No. I'm not joking. T4 is 'standard' for powered armor armies.
Also, I consider it bad form to use the tabletop statistics of something to justify an argument in the background forums. The tabletop is extremely restrictive, with stats being confined to the idea of a scale of 1-10.

Anyway, the difference is less than the difference between a Sororita and a Space Marine

False. There's far, far, far more differences between a Sororita and an Astartes than you think.

as I think the Karskin hands down are the finest human fighters without any augmentation.

So they're above the Sororitas. The Sororitas do not have any augmentation. They just have powered armor.
Without that armor, they're just a normal human.

Also the Sisters of Battle are extremely skilled, they are the cream of thousands of Schola Progeniums, sent to two convents.
There even more is flushed out, so only a few thousands of several millions are made to serve there. The attrition-rate is atrocious.

They can be as skilled as you want them to be, it does not change the fact that they are heavily reliant upon their powered armor to be effective.

I guess we shall just agree to disagree then, as we obviously won't agree and I really hate bickering.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Lightcavalier wrote:The majority of the population of Kreig are drafted, as they are being grown for just that purpose

Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

Actually it's not speculation. From Siege of Vraks Part I, page 87, 5th paragraph;

Siege of Vraks wrote:"The maximum tithe levels were enforced, Krieg's sole purpose was to turn out Death Korps soldiers as another world might mine ore or sow wheat. By the direct order of the Lords of Terra nothing was to be allowed to interfere with this purpose. This has resulted in suspect practices being tolerated - some, such as the eugenic policies designed to weed out mutants caused by Krieg's damaged biosphere, universal conscription, etc, are continuations of Krieg's centuries of civil war. But others such as the enforced use of 'Vitae-Womb' birthing techniques are little known outside of the Adeptus Biologis and are seen as dangerous and abhorrent by many Adeptus Mechanicus Biologis."

That is all taken, word perfect, from Siege of Vraks, Part I. I bolded a relevant part, the universal conscription.

If Krieg was not purposefully 'growing' Korpsmen, why would they be allowed to use the banned 'Vitae-womb' birthing technique? Why would they have an edict from the Lords of Terra making sure nothing interefered with their production of Guardsmen? I shall go on to quote this as well;

Siege of Vraks wrote:As Krieg stands today it is a true war-world, its tithes are the maximum possible for the planet's population, raising tens of regiments every year where a comparable sized world might be expected to tithe one regiment every decade. The rate of attrition and destruction among these regiments is likewise disproportionately high, as they are assigned to some of the most hazardous battlefields and dangerous worlds known to Man.

Thank you for proving my point. It's fan speculation at this point that the vitae-womb is a "cloning" method.

Now, since you clearly did not actually read my post...

I said he is wrong because of the idea of the Krieg troops being "grown simply for that purpose", as that implies that they are being cloned.

We don't know what a vitae-womb is. We don't know what it does, nor how it does what it does.

It could be some kind of bizarre artificial womb or it could be something like the Axlotl Tanks(functionally brain-dead women, kept on life support and used as birthing "factories".) that the Tleilaxu utilized in Frank Herbert's "Dune" novels.

Beaviz81 wrote:It Cadian Karshkin. Not Storm Troopers. Storm Troopers are great, Karshkin is marginally better. They are the third best fighters in the IOM.

bs. Do you have a source that flat out states "Kasrkin are better than storm troopers"? Kasrkin are just Cadian Storm Troopers, nothing more, nothing less. Also, did Eisenhorn ever see generic storm troopers? Yes, one should be intimidated by Kasrkin, but one should also be intimidated by regular storm troopers since they are the same thing. It is like comparing an Ultramarine to a Blood Angel, neither is inherently superior to the other.

Kanluwen wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Wrong. They actively volunteer. To get a spot in a Shock Troop Regiment is a big honor to the Cadians. The training that the Youth Armies undergo is described in "Malleus", with Eisenhorn noting constant lasfire and artillery shots in the wilderness where the Youth Armies are engaged in active combat against one another.

They do not feth around when it comes to training. If the ammunition isn't live, it's not a Cadian training regime.

No, they are all drafted, it may be considered an honour to fight, but whether you want to or not, you are fighting. Granted there is a good chance that you will end up in the interior guard (IIRC joining the interior guard is based purely on chance, rather than taking the left overs), but you still are forced to fight for the Imperium.

It's not a "draft" if you join before you are to be considered for drafting.

It's incorrect to say that they're "draftees" when in fact they're an all-volunteer force.
I'm just sayin' here. It's a terminology issue certainly, and a bit of nitpicking but it is a difference.
"Draftee" armies tend to have a stigma of being low on morale, training, etc. "Volunteer" forces tend to give the mental imagery of one which is a highly skilled force, dedicated to their training and trade.

Except they are drafted, if you were a Cadian and they told you you are going to be sent away to fight in the Imperial Guard you have to go. If you refuse they would probably just shoot you. A darfted army means one doesn't get a choice, and Cadians do not get a choice, they might go to the Interior Guard if you are lucky, or be a Kasrkin if you are good, but you cannot decide to not fight.

It's quoted to be as good if not better, so I wrote marginally.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's quoted to be as good if not better, so I wrote marginally.

Except "comparable if not better" is really vague. It is like saying "about 50% or more." It could be 45% it could be 50%, it could be 80%.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Brother Thomas wrote:I like the sound of cadians. If i was a man in the warhammer 40k i would bond my IG platoon into a brotherhood thru leadership. They would not be fanatical martyrs. They would be men of attrition, fighting for the emperor but also survivng for the emperor. After all dead men dont figt. So basically what im saying is my men wouldnt fix bayonets and charge a chaos space marine devastator, lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Loki- wrote:I think what the OP is looking for are the Elysian drop troops. They're probably the closest you'll find to comparing to modern military. They're formed into large regiments and also smaller specialised units, and deploy using Valkyries (in the way modern troops can be inserted into a hot zone via helicopter), the Elysian Airborn Assault Carrier and by grav chute.

They don't have their own heavy armour, but do use Sentinels and heavily armed 'buggies'. They are a rapid response force, and in general trained to a higher degree than most regiments with regards to actually hitting what they shoot at.

Sounds great. But ... are there fanatical commisars running around blowing troopers heads off for minor slip ups?

To my knowledge, the only popular regiment that doesn't really use commissars too heavily are the Catachans, most get fragged by the men, when they are used. IIRC, Gaunt is the only Commissar amongst the Tanith First.

If I remember right, Catachans only frag ones that are psychotic and wave their sword around, and start executing people.

Cain got along with them, if I remember right.

Yes I think I got my wires crossed in that I took the wrong meaning from your post. The quote I quoted;

Kanluwen wrote:Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

I took to imply that you were saying they're not just being raised to join the Death Korp, which they blatantly are, which is what my post was about. I took that meaning from your post because you then went on to say this;

Kanluwen wrote:Much like the Cadians, the Krieg fight each other for the chance to be actually recruited.

Well, they exist solely to join the Death Korps, which is why they have universal conscription, and if you don't make it into the Death Korps it's because you're either a) dead (either through the eugenics policy or just not able to survive, literally, the training) or b) deemed to be suitable to fulfil another position which will aid Krieg in raising it's vast Siege regiments in large numbers. Those who are part of option B might not like it BUT they do as they are told.

I don't think for one moment that the vitae-womb is cloning, not for one moment. If Forgeworld or Games Workshop came out and said "Guys... it -is- cloning" then we'd obviously be proved wrong, but I think the vitae-womb, whatever it is, would fit suitably with the atmosphere surrounding Krieg - grim, dark, faceless, almost inhuman.

Good grief, 4 edits. Anyway, last bit;

Kanluwen wrote:I said he is wrong because of the idea of the Krieg troops being "grown simply for that purpose", as that implies that they are being cloned.

Might to you but their being 'grown' to join the Death Korp could have many meanings - vitae-womb might accelerate the gestation period, might mean that by the time the 'child' is born it's already comparatively several years old in terms of physical state. We don't know but because something is 'grown for a purpose' does not mean it's cloning.

A commissar executing troopers for flimsy reason is actually not really canon, and a sufferer from psychosis, and is like spree-killers. That's actually a bit stupid to read unless you are out for a laugh.

Buttons wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It Cadian Karshkin. Not Storm Troopers. Storm Troopers are great, Karshkin is marginally better. They are the third best fighters in the IOM.

bs. Do you have a source that flat out states "Kasrkin are better than storm troopers"?

"Codex: Eye of Terror", most notably.

Kasrkin are just Cadian Storm Troopers, nothing more, nothing less.

This isn't strictly true. I'll expand upon this though.

Yes, one should be intimidated by Kasrkin, but one should also be intimidated by regular storm troopers since they are the same thing.

They're not.
The basic jist of it is this:
The training regime that the Cadians use for the Kasrkin is based off of the Schola Progenium's training regime for the Imperial Stormtroopers...but it is amped up to 11 for the Kasrkin.
The equipment might be the same, but the training and experience of the individuals when they receive the training in question is not the same.
An individual, by the time they are going to be selected for the training that Kasrkin undergo is going to be roughly 17-18.
That individual will have been actively engaged in combat since about age 13, with live fire engagements being their training regime since age 8 or 9.
That is roughly 5 years of active combat service with 4 years of grueling training conditions that would be considered barbaric by today's standards as the basis for their service. Members of the Whiteshields are commonly killed in training accidents, as live ammunition is used.

For the Imperial Stormtroopers, they are trained and it is considered to be an "investment" of sorts for their training. They are not exposed to hazardous conditions until after their training, requiring some combat experience(I've guesstimated about ~2-3 years or thereabouts of service in the rank and file of the Guard) before they are elevated to a Stormtrooper Company.

That's out of the way, now I can continue a bit more.
Kasrkin and Stormtroopers are not going to be filling the same roles on the battlefield, necessarily.
Stormtroopers are considered, at least now, to be more of a group of "special forces" styled soldiery. They perform the dirty jobs such as sabotage, assassination, and forward fire observation.
Kasrkin are able to fill the same roles...but where they really shine is as the spearhead of an assault. They're the lads who kick in a breach in the enemy's line, and hold it open for the Shock Troopers to follow in. They also tend to be found at the center of a defensive action, where the fighting is thickest.

Also, did Eisenhorn ever see generic storm troopers?

Considering he's an Inquisitor, and he served for quite a long time--it's safe to say yes, he has. We might not have an exact date as to when he did so, but he had a working relationship with the Imperial Guard and was raised in the care of the Schola Progenium so there's two very, very likely places where he encountered them.

It is like comparing an Ultramarine to a Blood Angel, neither is inherently superior to the other.

It's not. It's like comparing a Veteran Astartes to a newly inducted Scout. You can broadly paint them with the brush of "Astartes", but when you get into the nitty gritty of it

Buttons wrote:
Except they are drafted, if you were a Cadian and they told you you are going to be sent away to fight in the Imperial Guard you have to go. If you refuse they would probably just shoot you. A darfted army means one doesn't get a choice, and Cadians do not get a choice, they might go to the Interior Guard if you are lucky, or be a Kasrkin if you are good, but you cannot decide to not fight.

Irrelevant.

The idea that they could "refuse" is not going to occur to a Cadian. They are raised with the aspiration to join the Imperial Guard.
"Cadian Blood" has a good example of this in the mentality of the psyker assigned to the regiment, Seth.

Kanluwen wrote:I said he is wrong because of the idea of the Krieg troops being "grown simply for that purpose", as that implies that they are being cloned.

Might to you but their being 'grown' to join the Death Korp could have many meanings - vitae-womb might accelerate the gestation period, might mean that by the time the 'child' is born it's already comparatively several years old in terms of physical state. We don't know but because something is 'grown for a purpose' does not mean it's cloning.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Yes I think I got my wires crossed in that I took the wrong meaning from your post. The quote I quoted;

That's okay. It happens.

Kanluwen wrote:Wrong. They are not "being grown for just that purpose". That is speculative on the part of the fanbase. They're not like the Grand Army of the Republic, with clones being grown en masse to go into combat.

I took to imply that you were saying they're not just being raised to join the Death Korp, which they blatantly are, which is what my post was about. I took that meaning from your post because you then went on to say this;

Kanluwen wrote:Much like the Cadians, the Krieg fight each other for the chance to be actually recruited.

Well, they exist solely to join the Death Korps, which is why they have universal conscription, and if you don't make it into the Death Korps it's because you're either a) dead (either through the eugenics policy or just not able to survive, literally, the training) or b) deemed to be suitable to fulfil another position which will aid Krieg in raising it's vast Siege regiments in large numbers. Those who are part of option B might not like it BUT they do as they are told.

I don't think for one moment that the vitae-womb is cloning, not for one moment. If Forgeworld or Games Workshop came out and said "Guys... it -is- cloning" then we'd obviously be proved wrong, but I think the vitae-womb, whatever it is, would fit suitably with the atmosphere surrounding Krieg - grim, dark, faceless, almost inhuman.

Excellent. Another supporter for my Axlotl Tank theory?

I can certainly see how you'd misinterpret it as I did start off one specific way with the Cadians, and wasn't as in-depth for the Krieg.
Personally, that's because I just don't find the Krieg that interesting. I'm far more interested in Cadia...but I think that's obvious by now.

Kanluwen wrote:I said he is wrong because of the idea of the Krieg troops being "grown simply for that purpose", as that implies that they are being cloned.

Might to you but their being 'grown' to join the Death Korp could have many meanings - vitae-womb might accelerate the gestation period, might mean that by the time the 'child' is born it's already comparatively several years old in terms of physical state. We don't know but because something is 'grown for a purpose' does not mean it's cloning.

Personally...

I've got an inkling that the vitae-womb is not really "accelerating the gestation period", but rather ensuring that multiple offspring are birthed in each gestation period.

You're confusing and conflating what Kasrkin and Storm Troopers do. While Storm Troopers do participate in SOGgy operations, they are also used as the spearhead of assaults, shock troops, heavy infantry, and all of these other, brutal roles that the Kasrkin do.

A Kasrkin really is just a Cadian Storm Trooper. Though there seems to be a lot more Kasrkin than there are Storm Troopers, since the Kasrkin seem to be found all over the damned place, while there's but a single Storm Trooper regiment.

Kanluwen wrote:I've got an inkling that the vitae-womb is not really "accelerating the gestation period", but rather ensuring that multiple offspring are birthed in each gestation period.

It's another possibility chap, one I have considered in the past. It's one of those things I hope is never 'officially' revealed - the speculation as to what it actually is is far more fascinating than a solid 'this is it' explanation.

Personally I'm the opposite way round - I don't find the Cadians that interesting! Something about the faceless, almost automaton nature of the Korpsmen that I find fascinating, as well as having an interest in the 1914-18 war which obviously inspired the Death Korp.

It's my fault. I wasn't aware that the statement of that the Kasrkin was such a bombshell. I'm sorry for inflaming the whole discussion.

Psienesis wrote:You're confusing and conflating what Kasrkin and Storm Troopers do. While Storm Troopers do participate in SOGgy operations, they are also used as the spearhead of assaults, shock troops, heavy infantry, and all of these other, brutal roles that the Kasrkin do.

Not commonly. There's a reason the Stormtroopers are referred to as "Glory Boys" by the Imperial Guard at large. They get the credit, and what the Guardsmen consider "easy" jobs. Remember that Stormtroopers are not always on the line fighting, they might get called up for one specific operation and then go back to the rear serving as HQ security.

That's not saying, mind you, that Stormtroopers are poorly trained. The Kasrkin are always deployed at the forefront of a Cadian advance. They are commonly used as bodyguards for officers, certainly, but those officers are almost always at the frontline and engaged in combat.
It's a minor difference, I'd guess you say, but it's an important one. The Kasrkin aren't looked at with scorn or jealousy by their fellow Cadian troops, they're looked at with awe and reverence.

A Kasrkin really is just a Cadian Storm Trooper.

When it comes to representing them on the tabletop?
I will certainly agree on this. By the fluff though...it's a bit different.

Though there seems to be a lot more Kasrkin than there are Storm Troopers, since the Kasrkin seem to be found all over the damned place, while there's but a single Storm Trooper regiment.

This might actually have changed. The idea that one single Stormtrooper Regiment is sufficient for the entire Imperium is as daft as the idea of a single Astartes Chapter being able to take and garrison a world by themselves.

A single Storm Trooper regiment? When and where?

There has been a "single" Stormtrooper Regiment since about 2nd edition. The numbers, however, do not add up for a single regiment.

Right there are 10k. Storm Troopers, or they meant the regiments of Storm Troopers number 10k at any given time as Inq ST are there and so on. I think it's just horrid wording.

No.

There is one Regiment of Stormtroopers period.

They are broken up and deployed by companies/squads.
It's horrible, horrible wording and dates back to the days when Astartes were not superhuman, genetically engineered killing machines.

Brother Thomas wrote:I mean come on... Most Imperial Guard regiments are all to the points of extremism. Are there any out there that are just normal, hardy, brave men out to fight and defend the imperium, and their families? But are not fanatic and psychotic to the point of insanity?!

Am I missing something, or does this not describe the rather bog-standard Cadians and the Elysians fairly well? Relatively modern looking, nothing outrageously fanatical (at least as far as one can with 40k), etc.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's my fault. I wasn't aware that the statement of that the Kasrkin was such a bombshell. I'm sorry for inflaming the whole discussion.

Let that be a lesson to you! Everything's inflammatory on the Dakka!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:It's my fault. I wasn't aware that the statement of that the Kasrkin was such a bombshell. I'm sorry for inflaming the whole discussion.

Let that be a lesson to you! Everything's inflammatory on the Dakka!

It's always when you discuss WH40k something always gonna ruffle someone's feathers.

You're mistaking "inflammatory discussion"(read: "flamebaiting") with a statement which leads a thread on a diverging tangent.

One of those is against the rules of the forum; the other isn't.

I started a flame-war, which I didn't intend to. Then again I was under the assumption there were millions of Storm-Troopers out there, and about 5 million Kasrkin.

You did not start a flame war. You're okay.

While the discussion did get a bit..."intense", it was not a flame war.
A flame war is something wherein individuals do not present their arguments; they just attack the other poster with personal attacks, etc.

There is a damn fine line between being intense in arguing, and coming off as a keyboard-warrior. At times I wondered if I had run over your cat by accident.

Yeah. I fall a bit under the "intense" category of person, period, not just in my arguments over the Internet.

I also have quite an issue(read: to the point where it may or may not be causing a facepalm. ) when one argues a stance using the tabletop to justify fluff, etc.

In the future, and this applies to anyone who thinks I might be picking on them specifically, feel free to PM me and I'll gladly discuss things with you. I try to avoid using smiley faces when I can and it tends to make people think I'm "super serious" or flatout aggressive towards them.

Yeah, I just think there is so much easier to produce Storm Troopers and Kasrkins than Sororitas. As I wrote they are almost superhuman, but I can see your stance. The Storm Troopers are like the Navy Seals of WH40k. For me the Sisters is just a tad tougher.

Then simple polite phrases takes the edge out of things. I know I haven't the best track-record myself about it, but I just re-thought anything.

At least I shall remember that Kanluwen, and you had ample reason for annoyance with me due to me calling the Cadian Canadian.

It wasn't annoyance with the Cadianadians--more disbelief.

For the future, it would be fairly helpful to expound upon why you're comparing the two. Vague statements lead to open interpretation.

Which isn't bad for the background, but when discussing it--it can lead to issues or butting heads over seemingly useless bits of trivia.

I have seen it in pictures and heard interviews with writers, then again they have 1000 guys which varies between just doped up metahuman, to supermen controlling whole worlds by them self. So the writers ain't tactical geniuses.

I agree to that, and I shall so take that into consideration. I love the SOBs, they are amongst the most difficult to write anything about due to their intolerant nature and elitist upbringing.

Psienesis wrote:You're confusing and conflating what Kasrkin and Storm Troopers do. While Storm Troopers do participate in SOGgy operations, they are also used as the spearhead of assaults, shock troops, heavy infantry, and all of these other, brutal roles that the Kasrkin do.

A Kasrkin really is just a Cadian Storm Trooper. Though there seems to be a lot more Kasrkin than there are Storm Troopers, since the Kasrkin seem to be found all over the damned place, while there's but a single Storm Trooper regiment.

Storm troopers operate directly under Imperial jurisdiction, rather than under that of a given regiment.
Kasrkin are similar to Krieg grenadiers, they were regulars who proved themselves capable of a role somewhere between fully fledged Schola Progenium Storm Troopers and veterans, do to their battlefield experience, some units of Kasrkins may be considered better than regular storm troopers who may only have "book smarts" but it's never been officially stated. For all intents and purposes Kasrkins are just Cadian Storm Troopers.