This is really the end of the line for me. So, GW has been making decisions that hurt our local store: removing tables, rearranging, over all making things wayyyy worse. The trainer who is a complete idiot would never work with our new manager in fixing the issues. This just in today, our manager was fired for bad sales. Am I the only one right now who wants to stop playing this hobby over stupid corporate management?

My local store seem's to be doing just fine. Maybe it's just your store, not a corporate thing.

I never play at games workshop stores, because there crowded, only have 3 tables, and the people there are generally bad.

Mr Nobody wrote:My local store seem's to be doing just fine. Maybe it's just your store, not a corporate thing.

Honestly, the sales were booming and we had a large gathering. Since they changed everything around, sales all dropped and people have found other places of playing.

riverhawks32 wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:My local store seem's to be doing just fine. Maybe it's just your store, not a corporate thing.

Honestly, the sales were booming and we had a large gathering. Since they changed everything around, sales all dropped and people have found other places of playing.

The stores are a huge waste of money for GW. As such, they need to make as much money as possible to lessen the burden they pace on the rest of GW.

I don't know about your local area, but it seems to me that re-organising the store and sacking the manager there aren't things that GW would do just for kicks. They would have done it in an attempt to increase sales.

This is a good move on the part of GW corporate. We would all be complaining much more if they simply continued to employ people and allow low-sales stores to keep running, and as a result the entire GW behemoth is dragged down. It's a business and needs to be run as such.

We don't have a GW store near us, 2 hours to the closest, and I don't think anyone misses it. 3 decent FLGS (1 of which is excellent... Game Room, Washington, IL) and the other two are really solid.

Why deal with corporate backage when the local guys are better?

They've been canning managers at stores near me for a while now. They seem completely unable to see that people don't go into the stores to buy things anymore because

a) they're usually out of stock. The managers no longer have any control over inventory, and the computer simply doesn't know what people are into. The computer says you should have two boxes of grey knights on the shelf. But if five people are making GK armies, that doesn't work so well. Managers used to be able to plan around that sort of thing.

b) the price increases keep driving more and more people to buy from discounters on the net. There's little a manager can do about this either.

But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

Kaldor wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:My local store seem's to be doing just fine. Maybe it's just your store, not a corporate thing.

Honestly, the sales were booming and we had a large gathering. Since they changed everything around, sales all dropped and people have found other places of playing.

The stores are a huge waste of money for GW. As such, they need to make as much money as possible to lessen the burden they pace on the rest of GW.

I don't know about your local area, but it seems to me that re-organising the store and sacking the manager there aren't things that GW would do just for kicks. They would have done it in an attempt to increase sales.

This is a good move on the part of GW corporate. We would all be complaining much more if they simply continued to employ people and allow low-sales stores to keep running, and as a result the entire GW behemoth is dragged down. It's a business and needs to be run as such.

The thing is that the store was raking in the cash, sever core sets sold a week etc. For some reason they found it nessecary to rearrange the store to increase"sales area" Now we have a wide open space that is never used as everyone only buys from them to play in the store. I see your argument, however when the "attempts to increase sales" drive the store into the ground, there is something really wrong here. Plus, even other managers have said that the trainer is mostly to blame.....which of course no one listens to the gamers.

Kaldor wrote:

I don't know about your local area, but it seems to me that re-organising the store and sacking the manager there aren't things that GW would do just for kicks. They would have done it in an attempt to increase sales.

Yup, one of those "the beatings will continue until morale improves" strategies that they are fond of employing.

Smitty0305 wrote:I never play at games workshop stores because the people there are generally bad.

Wow, thanks for that generous overglazing.

Redbeard wrote:

But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

Yea. My Local GW goes through managers frighteningly fast and with all the turmoil surrounding the GW stores in Maryland, I don't expect them to resign their lease when it expires next year...

KplKeegan wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:I never play at games workshop stores because the people there are generally bad.

Wow, thanks for that generous overglazing.

Redbeard wrote:

But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

Yea. My Local GW goes through managers frighteningly fast and with all the turmoil surrounding the GW stores in Maryland, I don't expect them to resign their lease when it expires next year...

Whats up over yonder in Maryland?

Too many store openings. Within the span of a decade they opened around four to five stores; two of them closed, the GW headquarters moved to Tennesse, the 'Battle Bunker' moved to Laurel of all places, and the Baltimore Gamesday doesn't exist anymore...

Stores aren't seeing attendence like they used to. I'm not sure if there's a root cause or not, but my Local GW sees alot of regulars, however, I don't put it past GW to totally ruin it...

KplKeegan wrote:Too many store openings. Within the span of a decade they opened around four to five stores; two of them closed, the GW headquarters moved to Tennesse, the 'Battle Bunker' moved to Laurel of all places, and the Baltimore Gamesday doesn't exist anymore...

Stores aren't seeing attendence like they used to. I'm not sure if there's a root cause or not, but my Local GW sees alot of regulars, however, I don't put it past GW to totally ruin it...

Good point.

It depends on what store you're at. I've never noticed any problems with the Seattle Bunker...

im actually amazed the stores do any business at all in canada.

for example, canadian price for a box of terminators is 60 bucks plus tax which will be atleast 5 bucks. 65 bucks.

you would have to be insane to pay those prices when you can find it online for nearly half the price.

edit: thinking about it i know of 4 GW stores that have shut down. the only one that has stayed has been the one closest to me in a very rich neighborhood. go figure.

Never had any problem at my local bunker, plenty of tables (well over 16 4x6), good staff, and plenty of room for hobbiers also.

War gaming does not have to be an expensive hobby, but GW is an expensive hobby because it carry retail store as a marketing tool. These stores are shops but they are really run like a club.

Recently I thought about starting a gaming club and realise the maths (££) does not really adds up; the main cost is rental of a place; unless it is subsidised (by church or school or scouts), I think running a club will hardly break even; not to mention there is no way to keep the gaming boards at my home; alternatively model is to charge "pay per game" but it get very expensive, I know a club doing that and it is £5 a game for each player; the cost put me off from joining that club. This you may think is slightly off topic, but it shows the cost of running and maintaining a group of hobbyist is not cheap; and GW probably got the balance right by having making a loss in the store buy it generate further sale once the new comer is into the hobby.

It further generate more sale when someone else is buying for the new hobbyist; think of x’mas, birthday etc; the parent/ uncle etc do not know on-line store and just get from GW retail.

If it is not for the retail store "come in and play for free" I don’t think they will have enough new comers into the GW hobby and war gaming hobby in general; in my honest opinion I think other games own GW for getting people into the war gaming hobby.

However from what I have seen once the initial phase has passed i.e. the gamer get their first / second army; the gamer usually use the gw facility but they don’t buy from them; they rather buy on line / ebay / second hand. You may say why don’t GW stop selling through on-line retailer and only sell their product from their store; I think the issue is to do with market dominance.

Remember VHS and Betamax battle for videos market; where betamax is technically superior but decided to sell the video player and their tapes exclusively in their own stores; it is not the superiority of the product but the distribution channels that will give you market dominance; therefore GWS will still need other discount retailer / on line retailer to sustains its market dominance.

I think GWS got the balance right as well by create really a 3 tier market, first is the entry level stuff, box set and plastic stuff, second is the direct order only stuff (there is issue fine cast but they are really second teir); the third tier is forge world.

you probably can only get first tier stuff from the discount retailer but if you want to get more out of the hobby you really have to get at least some of the second tier products (think of Blood angel, almost all the character is direct order only; I got mine when they were metal).

And I bet that as the product goes up in the tier the profit margin follows as well.

As for the stores, I think they should arrange it to have mostly gaming area and then display area. The display is where drawn me in the first place for the art and details, it goes well with concerning parents as well as they can see their kids will develop some sort of a skill. But given the business model GW is running I believe the gaming area will largely determine the size of the club and therefore the number of hobbyist that it can support.


edit: forgot to add, my local store also have the gaming table reduced, it was 5 tables before, it is now down to 3. :(

I live between 2 local stores, one an hours walk into the next town, the other bus journey to the city. And weve had problems with neither. Sure, depending on who you ask its seems is a loveit-hateit kind of thing, but hey what isnt. The smaller town stores a one man gig, because its only tiny. can walk from the door to the back wall in maybe 10 steps. And as such it reflects this, they only have 2 tables, and one they clear out to use as the painting table if nothings on, and thats most of what happens in that one (the painting). And the managers friendly as hell, rather than what seems to be the usual in the city store, ("oh you bought paint? here buy these 3 baneblades") hes actually really helpful. I only started the hobby a few months back, so i was unsure other than a vague idea from my codex. Did he try and sell me 3 of everything? No, he sat with me and gave me a better idea of what each unit can do and its uses, to help me make a better choice and buy what i need.

Dont get me wrong though, the city one isnt bad either, just i think there sales pushing is down to the fact its a larger 3 man store, but eh thats life when youv got that kind of room.

Dazuni, while this is a good idea for GW, it really is not practical. Anymore people come in, get interested, look at the prices and leave. Our store is all windows so the people playing are what draw attention and get people interested initially....and in this case they dropped us from 5 to 3 tables (but shoved them all in a corner) as well as removed a painting table (further cramming into one corner). So to say that it is less profitable for them to have gamers playing...I would say is conditional.

GW Poole, where I normally play, is pretty amazing.

The staff are friendly, most players are good mannered and there's plenty of gaming space to enjoy.

@Smitty: Thank you so much for that generous blanket stereotyping. I'm sure because I have nobody in my local area so I have to go to GW I'm a terrible person.

riverhawks32 wrote:Anymore people come in, get interested, look at the prices and leave. Our store is all windows so the people playing are what draw attention and get people interested initially....and in this case they dropped us from 5 to 3 tables (but shoved them all in a corner) as well as removed a painting table (further cramming into one corner). So to say that it is less profitable for them to have gamers playing...I would say is conditional.

The price kills more potential players than anything else. Three tables aren't so bad in my store since everyone's experienced enough for fast games, but there isn't a whole lot of new-faced regulars coming in...

The only thing keeping the store afloat now is the veteran regualars....who we all now are not buying from the company directly.

Well, my local store went from ok to terrible. There were two guys at the beginning with a small, but still decent space, and two full size gaming tables. Those guys quit, and were replaced by a not so good dude, but still alright. The store was rearranged, store space got halved and the tables taken away, leaving us with 3 half size tables...

Now even this guy has left and its all for the worst. I don't even go there anymore.

Pretty much off topic, but Im surprised by how many people are talking about their stores in maryland/seattle/general americas lol.

Guess I just didnt realise how popular the game had gotten over in the colonies I'm pretty sure the stores local to me (Bristol, UK) are still open and running the same as they always have done...

Although tbh, I still buy most of my stuff from ebay or discounted stores.. I just dont have the money to pay full price if there are other options available!

KplKeegan wrote:Too many store openings. Within the span of a decade they opened around four to five stores; two of them closed, the GW headquarters moved to Tennesse, the 'Battle Bunker' moved to Laurel of all places, and the Baltimore Gamesday doesn't exist anymore...

Stores aren't seeing attendence like they used to. I'm not sure if there's a root cause or not, but my Local GW sees alot of regulars, however, I don't put it past GW to totally ruin it...

I'm not a big fan of all of the shuffling around MD either. The closest GW to me now is Pasadena and that place is SMALL. I think they have like one table. GW annapolis used to be cool when it was in the mall, they had a ton of space, but I went into the new GW annapolis about a year ago and was struggling just to find a box of battle wizards due to how cramped their tables are, and the amount of gamers.

I don't really get the move of Game Day to Chicago, though I'm happy that at least opened a Battle Bunker in the MD area again. It's too bad that bowie is like a 35-40 minute drive and Games and Stuff is literally less than 5 minutes away. If Games and Stuff had Realm of Battle gameboards, there would literally be no incentive to go anywhere else, GnS can give you 10% to frequent customers on top of a 10% discount for orders not stocked.

I think it's worth noting that GW's current hiring policy is to train store managers only currently, so it's relatively easy for them to replace people who they think under-perform. They're no doubt getting more candidates for store manager than store openings. They're also looking for the type of people who aren't going to complain about things like merchandising issues and outside interference on their sales. They are looking for true plastic hustlers, who will pull in good figures year round, regardless of competition. True "yes men" who continue to advance their numbers despite whatever crap a regional manager or GW corporate changes.

As someone who lives in Bowie, I can say that the Battle Bunker seems to be doing fine. There's like two dozen full-size tables taking up slightly over half the store, and I've never had a problem finding anything on the shelves if it was in stock.

I live in NYC where the closes gameshop happens to be GW in Manhattan which is an hour away by subway. Fortunately there doesn't seem to be any of the issues you guys are facing in yours. Although I don't really ever see anyone buy anything but maybe it's just me.

Redbeard wrote:But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

The store manager told me this, I didn't really understand it so I'll try to recall what I remember ( no doubt I'll be missing pieces of info )

In order to close down a store, they need to hire a bunch of new staff and manager.
They dont care for the staff's competence of attendance as they just need someone to fill the store for 1 month.

After 1 month they'll fire all the staff ( they weren't even properly trained ) they'll "reboot" the shop.

I can't remember what reboot meant or what advantage this has for GW, maybe you know?

That is sad. Their marketing strategy will eventually run them into the ground.

It's fascinating how GW approaches have changed since i worked for them back in the early 90s. That was the time when Ansell sold the company on to the accountants and they moved from a for gamers by gamers approach to a purely commerical sell-sell-sell approach.

When that started they brought in several new things which made life harder: first they changed the stocks to Citadel only. They cut out the RPG lines etc. Then they instructed us to get rid of regular customers. Their rationale seemed to be that a new customer spends lots and then as they become a regular they stop buying so much and come in to shoot the breeze. We were ordered to actively discourage regulars by not speaking to them and concetrating on speaking to new arrivals and especially kids. To enforce this secret shoppers were deployed to catch staff who spoke to regulars.

I left after I witnessed the cold-bloodedeness of that regime first hand. I got in one day to find the regioanl manager (who was a deeply unpleasant man) and a couple of guys I did not know in the shop. He asked who I was and I asked him where the manager was as I had seen him a couple of days previously and I was expecting him to be in. he told me he had had issues with the store and therefore had come in and sacked all the staff present. I survived because I was not in that day, although he cheerfully told me he would have scaked me too. he said the policy was a clean sweep, sack the entire store staff and start over.

They seem much keener on regulars now and actively try to make you at least comfortable. They have rowed back on a lot of their harsher policies such as not being allowed to use older generations of Citadel figures, no conversions, etc. They let you play with unpainted figures too. In my day people could not come into the shop with their own armies and play games like they can now.

One of the reasons I got back into this was the new attitude and set up of the stores. When I quit I vowed I would never give them another single penny of my cash.

Report from Down Under here - My local GW store is staffed by 20-somethings in flannel shirts who hover around you while you browse the shelves and talk to you like this is the first time you've ever purchased a box.

They also have gaming tables permanently set up in what looks like mock games (but I could just be missing the people who play) pushed right up against the shelves so there's slightly too little space to comfortably browse. The painting table is about 2 feet off the ground and is similarly pushed into the corner.

A little under half the 40k boxes on shelves feature the good old boys in blue and their various metal boxes, with the rest of GW's ranges (non-SM 40k, WFB and LotR) crammed into two walls of shelf space. I play Orks, and the only Ork boxes I can ever find are Lootas/Burnas, Boyz and the various Finecast characters.

Most of the time the shop's clientel are 40-something veterans and their 12-year-old offspring who delight in running around with models and making 'pew-pew' noises. Sometimes there's so many of them that it's diffcult to move at all in the cramped spaces between tables and shelves.

Overall it's a hellish place full of unhelpful staff, SM products and small children. I go elsewhere to my FLGS and get my resin fix there. Or what I can get when boxes of Boyz cost AUD$50-60 a go.

NimbleJack3 wrote:Report from Down Under here - My local GW store is staffed by 20-somethings in flannel shirts who hover around you while you browse the shelves and talk to you like this is the first time you've ever purchased a box.

They also have gaming tables permanently set up in what looks like mock games (but I could just be missing the people who play) pushed right up against the shelves so there's slightly too little space to comfortably browse. The painting table is about 2 feet off the ground and is similarly pushed into the corner.

A little under half the 40k boxes on shelves feature the good old boys in blue and their various metal boxes, with the rest of GW's ranges (non-SM 40k, WFB and LotR) crammed into two walls of shelf space. I play Orks, and the only Ork boxes I can ever find are Lootas/Burnas, Boyz and the various Finecast characters.

Most of the time the shop's clientel are 40-something veterans and their 12-year-old offspring who delight in running around with models and making 'pew-pew' noises. Sometimes there's so many of them that it's diffcult to move at all in the cramped spaces between tables and shelves.

Overall it's a hellish place full of unhelpful staff, SM products and small children. I go elsewhere to my FLGS and get my resin fix there. Or what I can get when boxes of Boyz cost AUD$50-60 a go.

It seems anymore the "black shirts" are corporate drones that have no care to the game in of itself.

riverhawks32 wrote:The only thing keeping the store afloat now is the veteran regualars....who we all now are not buying from the company directly.

So you're saying that the veterans are NOT keeping the store afloat.

Then what is?

Bookwrack wrote:

riverhawks32 wrote:The only thing keeping the store afloat now is the veteran regualars....who we all now are not buying from the company directly.

So you're saying that the veterans are NOT keeping the store afloat.

Then what is?

I think he was being ironic.

I've never had a problem...
Local shop is great.
Really friendly staff.
Every other shop i have been in has been fine as well...

I happen to live 15 mins away from the only GW in Florida, Orlando to be specific. Them opening last year was actually the reason I came back to the hobby after 15 years. Awesome manager, there are always games going on, and the shelves are always stocked.

Redbeard wrote:They've been canning managers at stores near me for a while now. They seem completely unable to see that people don't go into the stores to buy things anymore because

a) they're usually out of stock. The managers no longer have any control over inventory, and the computer simply doesn't know what people are into. The computer says you should have two boxes of grey knights on the shelf. But if five people are making GK armies, that doesn't work so well. Managers used to be able to plan around that sort of thing.

b) the price increases keep driving more and more people to buy from discounters on the net. There's little a manager can do about this either.

But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

Essentially, this. Also, there's the part where the rules systems used by GW are an absolute burden (*glares at 40k*), making it feel like a chore sometimes to play anything even approaching a medium-sized game. I would defend GW by saying they make excellent quality miniatures if one is a hobbyist rather than a gamer, but the price is simply unjustifiable when other miniatures companies create excellent quality miniatures and are able to publish functional rule systems. It's the stores, the systems, the price, the.... well, basically everything that fuels my anger for GW.

grayshadow87 wrote:

Redbeard wrote:They've been canning managers at stores near me for a while now. They seem completely unable to see that people don't go into the stores to buy things anymore because

a) they're usually out of stock. The managers no longer have any control over inventory, and the computer simply doesn't know what people are into. The computer says you should have two boxes of grey knights on the shelf. But if five people are making GK armies, that doesn't work so well. Managers used to be able to plan around that sort of thing.

b) the price increases keep driving more and more people to buy from discounters on the net. There's little a manager can do about this either.

But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

Essentially, this. Also, there's the part where the rules systems used by GW are an absolute burden (*glares at 40k*), making it feel like a chore sometimes to play anything even approaching a medium-sized game. I would defend GW by saying they make excellent quality miniatures if one is a hobbyist rather than a gamer, but the price is simply unjustifiable when other miniatures companies create excellent quality miniatures and are able to publish functional rule systems. It's the stores, the systems, the price, the.... well, basically everything that fuels my anger for GW.

Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

Redbeard wrote:They've been canning managers at stores near me for a while now. They seem completely unable to see that people don't go into the stores to buy things anymore because

a) they're usually out of stock. The managers no longer have any control over inventory, and the computer simply doesn't know what people are into. The computer says you should have two boxes of grey knights on the shelf. But if five people are making GK armies, that doesn't work so well. Managers used to be able to plan around that sort of thing.

b) the price increases keep driving more and more people to buy from discounters on the net. There's little a manager can do about this either.

But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

Welcome to "Anywhere you work that is a big company". This isn't something exclusive to GW, I see this with my wifes job all the time. For instance, they require the managers to go out of their way to contact adoption agencies and other companies to host events at the store or to attend events but her company does not allow the use of their work email outside of the work network. Basically, you can't email anyone from your work email that is not also at the same domain (@petcompanyname.com). But they refuse to also pay the managers for the time spent off the clock and resources used for handling these affairs that are mandatory.

So anyway, stupid business decisions are not something GW has the patent on.

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

spacewolf407 wrote:I happen to live 15 mins away from the only GW in Florida, Orlando to be specific. Them opening last year was actually the reason I came back to the hobby after 15 years. Awesome manager, there are always games going on, and the shelves are always stocked.

Theres a new store opening up down here in south Florida (Sunrise) in a few weeks. Im going to go there for the opening but not sure if Ill keep going since its a little farther than my FLGS. Not sure how big its going to be.

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

I was about to say something along similar lines. They're incomparable.

Fafnir wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

I was about to say something along similar lines. They're incomparable.

Right.. the only meaningful comparison to make is to other companies within the same industry, otherwise you can just continue with an endless string of justification. By the pricing standards within the wargaming/modelling hobby (considering that a lot of games are playable for less than £50, total) GW is one of the most expensive.

Isengard wrote:it's fascinating how GW approaches have changed since i worked for them back in the early 90s....*snip*.

The internal structural changes of GW and their effects have been oft repeated, and will be familiar to anyone who has been part of a company (in any industry) going through a similar process. I heard some absolutely appalling stuff during my time at GW and afterwards, some of which I just couldn't repeat on a public forum. Suffice to say, they have had their 'night of the long knives', and on more than one occasion.

I'm actually relatively new to GW (only started collecting in the last year or so) - when did all this corporate change start for them? I'm aware it might have had something to do with the original owners selling the company, or something along those lines, but that's as far as my understanding extends.

My FLGS is inside of a Mall so it's not the biggest one around, but for it's size it has a great stock and good spacing.

The Tables are in the middle of the store, and are centralized to allow for maximum room and movement, and the painter counter is a high bar like area with bar stools!

I'm the only IG at my store, even though it's ALWAYS busy with people buying new things, so I always play on the table next to the IG section, because I am the only one who buys there so I get lots of room!

The main reason I don't buy online is to help support my FLGS. I think that if they were to ever shut down I'd probably switch to online rather than buying directly from the nearest GW (which is a good hour drive away). I love their games, but their policies really turn me off.

NimbleJack3 wrote:I'm actually relatively new to GW (only started collecting in the last year or so) - when did all this corporate change start for them? I'm aware it might have had something to do with the original owners selling the company, or something along those lines, but that's as far as my understanding extends.

During the mid to late nineties it was well in force with it truly being amped up to 11 at the time of LOTR's release in 2001 in my experience.

SiLKY wrote:I live in NYC where the closes gameshop happens to be GW in Manhattan which is an hour away by subway. Fortunately there doesn't seem to be any of the issues you guys are facing in yours. Although I don't really ever see anyone buy anything but maybe it's just me.

Thanks for mentioning that. I'm gonna be on Queens College next year, so that's a huge boon for me.

I'd have to say it's subjective and very much dependant on the staff members in question. Local store has had brilliant managers who have put time, effort and energy into making the store grow and also lousy managers who did nothing, sat around idle or proceeded to nick things after being sacked.

I support the local GW simply because it offers better resources for games and the like. Sure, there's a local GCN club - which charges far too much, doesn't take into account circumstances and pulled a sneaky on me with their store - purchased a Hydra from them. Had to wait a month to get it. And conveniently enough they increased their discount from 5% to 20% the day after I bought it and never made any effort to compensate for that.

So not only did I have to wait for a month for my order but I effectively got swindled - and this is a local GCN club/store.

At least the local GW has the balls to admit when they're wrong and goes out of the way to fix it.

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

What? You mean when people go to clubs and get so drunk they can't speak, they're making connections and improving their lives?
That's bs.
A night out entertains you for an evening, a box of 40k entertains you for a week, maybe more maybe less, depends how much spare time you have.

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

For that money you could also get a pretty decent deck for any TCG you like, and start playing right away. Or a PC/Console game. Or the basic rules of most P&P games. In terms of nerdy man toyz, warhammer is about as expensive as it gets.
I've only played warmachines once during my lunchbreak at a FLGS where they were showing people how it works. But I found it just accessible as warhammer40k.

It's also not like GW hands out their rules for free, they are still charging the equivalent of your night out for just the big grey book. For that kind of money I expect a well written rules set and real FAQ and Errata support, just like all other companies provide who charge similar prices for their books. GW's fire-and-forget attempt at rules has been outdated ever since the millennium began. If they are a fluff and modeling company, they should allow someone else to make money by writing their rules. Right now, they are selling rules in form of the BGB and the Codices which are as expensive as 20% of any decent army (not counting paints), so they damn well should be perfect. There simply is no excuse for the slow updates on the FAQs. Someone scanning the big fanpage's rules forums for those threads with over four pages and adding corresponding FAQs weekly should easily be able to improve the rule's quality tenfold.

In defense of GW, the BGB is a better read than most rulebooks I've read, for example, you can't simply sit down and read all the magic rules in one go without going completely nuts.
It's questionable whether being a good read is better than providing flawless rules.

Isengard wrote:
I left after I witnessed the cold-bloodedeness of that regime first hand. I got in one day to find the regioanl manager (who was a deeply unpleasant man) and a couple of guys I did not know in the shop. He asked who I was and I asked him where the manager was as I had seen him a couple of days previously and I was expecting him to be in. he told me he had had issues with the store and therefore had come in and sacked all the staff present. I survived because I was not in that day, although he cheerfully told me he would have scaked me too. he said the policy was a clean sweep, sack the entire store staff and start over.

How did they do this?
AFAIK you cannot just up and sack an entire store staff just because the feeling strikes you the Employment Rights Act gives employees the right not to be unfairly dismissed by his employer.

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

What? You mean when people go to clubs and get so drunk they can't speak, they're making connections and improving their lives?
That's bs.
A night out entertains you for an evening, a box of 40k entertains you for a week, maybe more maybe less, depends how much spare time you have.

Eh, speak for yourself, dude. Not everyone who socializes is an out-of-control drunk. I met my wife during a night out--pretty sure that resulted in something more meaningful than a handful of plastic army men. The entire comparison is ludicrous.

I dunno how we got to going out Vs. buying models, and I'd hope that most people could be able to fit both reasonably in their budget. If you can't, you've probably got more important things than either of them to worry about.

On other notes, I'll share my experience. I live on Long Island, in New York, and I frequent a store called Ravenblood Games, and it's a wonderful place, but there are advantages to going to a Games Workshop. For one, it's stock. GW stores get preferred shipping. Models that are scarce like Pedro Kantor, are more likely to be found there than at a privately owned business. On the other hand, the guy who runs the store sets his own policy and deals with people personally. That makes for a much more intimate atmosphere, as well as a potentially more stable business platform, as he can learn directly what his customers want, and how to make that happen.

Jidmah wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

For that money you could also get a pretty decent deck for any TCG you like, and start playing right away.

You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

Jidmah wrote:
Or a PC/Console game.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Jidmah wrote:
Or the basic rules of most P&P games. In terms of nerdy man toyz, warhammer is about as expensive as it gets.

Right, because rulebooks+plastic models cost more than just rulebooks. Great job.

Jidmah wrote:
It's also not like GW hands out their rules for free, they are still charging the equivalent of your night out for just the big grey book. For that kind of money I expect a well written rules set and real FAQ and Errata support, just like all other companies provide who charge similar prices for their books. GW's fire-and-forget attempt at rules has been outdated ever since the millennium began. If they are a fluff and modeling company, they should allow someone else to make money by writing their rules. Right now, they are selling rules in form of the BGB and the Codices which are as expensive as 20% of any decent army (not counting paints), so they damn well should be perfect. There simply is no excuse for the slow updates on the FAQs. Someone scanning the big fanpage's rules forums for those threads with over four pages and adding corresponding FAQs weekly should easily be able to improve the rule's quality tenfold.

You genuinely want a "perfect" ruleset. That renders everything you say about GW invalid.

Hey, my store is doing fine, and has recently expanded size so much a life-size Dark Angel stands sentinel at the door (scaring off heretics hiding from the rain) so its probably a store thing.

Lightning Shadows wrote:Hey, my store is doing fine, and has recently expanded size so much a life-size Dark Angel stands sentinel at the door (scaring off heretics hiding from the rain) so its probably a store thing.

That is so boss.

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

What? You mean when people go to clubs and get so drunk they can't speak, they're making connections and improving their lives?
That's bs.
A night out entertains you for an evening, a box of 40k entertains you for a week, maybe more maybe less, depends how much spare time you have.

I'm not sure what your social life involves, but getting drunk is not the extent of a night out, or hanging out with friends in general. It can be something as awesome as climbing 3,000 feet up a bare rock face, canoeing down a local river, or going fishing, to something simple like just chilling with a friend at his house and drinking a few ale-8's (Very popular drink in KY, I personally think it tastes like but that's just me) You could go see a local band playing at a park or bar (and you don't HAVE to drink at a bar) or even just go see a movie and go bowling. Some activities, like going hiking or climbing, CAN be life changing, and I highly recommend everyone do so at least once in their life. And to be honest, even with all the specialized hiking gear I've bought, it's probably roughly equivalent to what I've spent on 40k (if not less) and impacted my life far more than a few guardsmen ever will And don't even get me started on how much money I've spent on musical equipment...

I remember one of my favorite afternoons, a friend of mine and I played the original X-Com for 12 hours straight. Cost of that afternoon? $5 for me to buy the game for him as a gift on steam, and then $16 between the two of us to get some drinks and pizza. And it was awesome, it was stupid fun and probably one of my favorite moments in video games ever. There was not one drop of alcohol involved at any point of the day.

Sorry to blow up like that, that's not just you. Several people on this forum have this idea that a night out only involves drinking or getting high, and that drives me crazy. My friends and I find all kinds of ways to have cool nights out without doing that, so it just bugs me when people think the only way to have a good time is to get hammered. This rant's been building up for a while

Back OT: We don't have an "official" GW store within two hours of my house, so I can't really speak about that. All we have are independently run FLGS, but they get screwed over by GW corporate policies all the same. My main FLGS can actually get stuff faster by ordering as if he's buying it for himself than if he buys it for the store, and it's not just a couple of days, it's often a week or two faster.

GW, as a corporate entity, is hopeless. They survive on the strength of their IP and existing market position of their product. They have their good aspects, such as product replacement/customer service and are by far the most advanced plastics kit guys out there making much larger and more detailed/varied kits than any competitor, but as a business organization, they are basically existing in spite of themselves. This is the same company that decided to *borrow* money to pay dividends, which happened to nicely double Mr. Kirby's yearly income while he was both CEO and Chairman in violation of UK law. Their brick and mortar stores have been a revolving chain of failures for the most part, locating them in rather unfathomable places (e.g. rural tennessee locations with highly restricted hours while leaving large metro areas without any presence) and managing them even more poorly.

Joey wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

For that money you could also get a pretty decent deck for any TCG you like, and start playing right away.

You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

Jidmah wrote:
Or a PC/Console game.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Joey wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

For that money you could also get a pretty decent deck for any TCG you like, and start playing right away.

You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

Jidmah wrote:
Or a PC/Console game.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

Syrim and ME3 were closer t £40 on release, I think thats what he mean in the generalisation

I feel like chipping in for this thread.
When I started playing (I was rather young back then), we had a games workshop rather near by and the place was always packed. However, I found the people working there to be rather unfriendly and always forcing stuff on people. I remember when I bought my first miniatures and a friend asked about just using non-gw colors, the staff told us that the models were manufactured such that only official games workshop colors would stick... Make of that what you will. Bref, I didn't really like the staff there, but as a shop it was pretty cool and I remember some of the people there were pretty cool as well. (One of the players let me check out his Dark Eldar and I, having been young and clumsy back then, dropped (and thereby damaged) a vehicle. Even though I felt really bad and wanted to reimburse him, he told me it was cool and let it slide, telling me only to be a little more careful.)
Back on track, even though it seemed to be very popular the store closed before I had time to finish an army. In the end it seems like Games Workshop stores can be rather successful and nice places, but that the Games Workshop policies are often ruining that. From what people have been sharing here and from what I have read elsewhere, I must say that I find their whole business policy highly disgusting; but then again I am not surprised given that a group of investors with no sens or connection for and with their costumers or the game make the policies and the decisions.

Oh and @ the whole one evening partying vs. a box of miniatures discussion; I find the two hard to compare. Yes miniatures probably give you a little more for your time, but personally, I've shared a lot more good memories and crazy times out partying with friends than when painting or playing wh40k That's not to say the same goes for everyone.... so yeah, I like myself some miniatures, but choosing some plastic figures over a good time with friends isn't my thing; though that choice is for everyone to make himself.

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

Really? I just can't believe someone would have the audacity to say that. GW's rules are some of the worst written rules out there right now in the "popular" games genre. They have no consistent vision or focus and even within a specific version/edition of the rules cannot stay on focus with those filling all their supplemental books with rules exceptions because they are "cool" and then large chunks of the games completely change when a new version comes out instead of being improved and fixed. I love the games, but they are not even remotely close to streamlined. I play a game of Flames of War and the rules help run the game. I play a game of 40k anymore and half the time I am fighting the rules as much as my opponent. That is *not* streamlined.

I can easily walk into any local gaming store and find Flames of War and Warmachine support just as readily as GW games. In fact many are moving away from GW stuff almost entirely. Smaller stores get the shaft from GW marketing requirements. My FLGS has a large contingent of Flames of War players and small contingent of Warmachine players and a group for Malifaux is growing every week. There is no *regular* GW game day in the store. 40k happens occasionally and I have yet to see *any* games of WFB happen in the store. GW has done a good job in pissing off its long time players with poor rules, over priced models and general disinterest in their established player base for years and now with plenty of decent alternatives on the market they really need to change their attitude or they will find themselves out of the market. I don't expect GW to be the gamers' buddy. They are a business, but I do expect and want to feel that I am getting a decent product for a decent price and while I still fully love GW's minis, I find myself less and less interested in their rules or feeling they are worth money at all. Things like Storm of Magic that try to hide marketing's desire to have people buy more highly priced monstrous creature kits, even things that go completely against racial stories and backgrounds, behind "cool" rules for big magically focused battles. Yeah, um...yawn...give me a ruleset that I can use consistently and easily while playing without a dozen arguments where everyone has a different opinion on what a specific rule really means and I'll be a happy customer again. I love playing Flames of War where I can focus on fighting my opponent and his army and not the rules.

Skriker

In all fairness, this is the same guy who's trying to argue the cost effectiveness of toy soldiers over spending time with friends.

Fafnir wrote:In all fairness, this is the same guy who's trying to argue the cost effectiveness of toy soldiers over spending time with friends.

Yes. Exactly. And to be honest, just mix 'em. Grab your crew, grab a few brewskies. Good times.

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

What? You mean when people go to clubs and get so drunk they can't speak, they're making connections and improving their lives?
That's bs.
A night out entertains you for an evening, a box of 40k entertains you for a week, maybe more maybe less, depends how much spare time you have.

Maybe for you it is, but certainly not for everyone ( and from the replies I see, ALOT are definitely not like you )
Maybe your argument would be more convincing if the POV wasn't just from a single person.

So to reply to what you said.
No, it's certainly not "bs'

Joey wrote:You genuinely want a "perfect" ruleset. That renders everything you say about GW invalid.

People don't want a "perfect" ruleset. They want a balanced and well laid out ruleset that doesn't get in the way of playing and degenerate into hundreds of special exceptions to the rules when yet another codex comes out that the author just thought would so super cool and couldn't be bothered to write to fit within the actual ruleset. THAT is what people want. I want to pick up Version 6 of 40k and have it be a better ruleset than Version 5 and not just a different ruleset from version 5. We want consistency. The last codex written for the latest version of the game should be no more powerful than the first codex written for that version. They should be readily comparable and there needs to be an overall and consistent vision for writing the books and the points in them. Instead they seem to just make them up on the spot. Why do the same things cost different in different SM codex books? Why can only long fangs shoot at different targets when all space marines are just as long lived? Heck why can't squads split all their fire however they choose? Why would a trooper with a lascannon shoot at infantry just because his buddies did and ignore the dreadnought that is just as close by and threatening? So many of these rules just don't make sense.

Version 3.0 just came out for Flames of War. It improved numerous areas that players had found cludgy, clumsy, weird or just plain dumb. Things that worked fine were not changed at all. In addition they gave away free softbound copies of the 3rd edition rulebook to those who already owned the 2nd edition hardback rules. The changes they made have *improved* the game. It flows better, some things make better sense, some things that hampered certain units being used regularly were removed and you can actually now learn *all* of the rules for the game by going through the rulebook and *only* looking at the pictured examples in each chapter. You don't even have to read all the rules if you don't want to in order to learn to play the game. In my book that is doing it far better and smarter than GW has ever done it. On top of that I can play in a FoW event with *any* 15mm WWII minis in my force as long as they are on the proper sized bases and oriented properly on the bases.

Skriker

It's gonna be a damn shame if GW goes under, because I personally love this game. I wish it was smarter, I wish it was more balanced, I wish it was managed better and more ethically, with more faith to the people who love it, but I do love it. And I'd be sad to see it go. :/

Well here goes the final nail in the coffin for my store: the new manager was installed and they threw away everything the community made for the tables and even tried throwing away the community built tables until we took them. Now there is like 2 tables (maybe 1) and you have to buy something to play.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Joey wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

For that money you could also get a pretty decent deck for any TCG you like, and start playing right away.

You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

Jidmah wrote:
Or a PC/Console game.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

Port Royale 3:
http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/DD-PR3/port-royale-3
£30. Not some huge megalithic corporation, and probably considered a fair price by many.
http://www.gamersgate.co.uk/DD-SEV2/sniper-elite-v2
There's a game called Sniper Elite for £26.99. Frankly it looks terrible.
Anyway I stand by my point. Compared to a lot of other hobbies it's much cheaper. It also never expires. Spend £20 on a Tactical Squad and you'll always have a painted squad that you can use. It is a physical manifestation of your imagination. Games are fun but, by and large, when they're gone they're gone.
Particularly games like COD and FIFA that are essentially DLCs with an insane price tag (as you allude to).

TermiesInARaider wrote:It's gonna be a damn shame if GW goes under, because I personally love this game. I wish it was smarter, I wish it was more balanced, I wish it was managed better and more ethically, with more faith to the people who love it, but I do love it. And I'd be sad to see it go. :/

Well, none of us hate 40k, otherwise we wouldn't be on this forum, and we wouldn't be concerned about the direction GW is moving the game in. They've created a fantastic universe and occasionally pump out some wonderful models. We just hate the way GW manages itself, its games, and the way GW treats its consumers (not fans, consumers, because that's what we're viewed as).

riverhawks32 wrote:Well here goes the final nail in the coffin for my store: the new manager was installed and they threw away everything the community made for the tables and even tried throwing away the community built tables until we took them. Now there is like 2 tables (maybe 1) and you have to buy something to play.

Now that is heinous baggery at its finest. My condolences to you guys, I hope you find somewhere else to play.

There ain't even any GW's in my state, or in my country of origin (Israel). Have never even been inside one, but these stories don't make me want to go much....I rely on online retailers/Ebay and FLGS for purchases where I don't feel like waiting days for deliveries (paint, glue, supplies, etc. mostly).

Harriticus wrote:There ain't even any GW's in my state, or in my country of origin (Israel). Have never even been inside one, but these stories don't make me want to go much....I rely on online retailers/Ebay and FLGS for purchases where I don't feel like waiting days for deliveries (paint, glue, supplies, etc. mostly).

That's honestly the way to go, IMHO. GW is just mucking around with too much stuff to really feel comfy with them. Gimme my FLGS any day.

Joey wrote:
Anyway I stand by my point. Compared to a lot of other hobbies it's much cheaper. It also never expires. Spend £20 on a Tactical Squad and you'll always have a painted squad that you can use.

Well, except for when GW tries to discourage the use of old models (from what I've read previously, GW has tried that). Not to mention that new codecies and rules editions frequently invalidate old setups and load outs, or make them obsolete. Not to mention the development towards making the game focus on larger armies with units that progressively cost less points, requiring further investment in order to continue to play at various levels.

It is a physical manifestation of your imagination.

No. Either your imagination is very poor, or you're heavily underestimating the power of someone's imagination. Supermen in powered armour designed by someone else is not a manifestation of my imagination. I may assemble, pose, and paint them, but I never designed them. Now, I'm not saying that the 40k universe is dull or unimaginative, but rather, it's a manifestation of someone else's imagination, not my own.

Games are fun but, by and large, when they're gone they're gone.

No, they're really not. Zone of the Enders 2, my favourite game of all time, is sitting on the shelf and I can pick it up and play it whenever I want.

It's really funny too, because when you argue cost and time, ZoE2 is my favourite game of all time, and has had the largest impact on me in terms of my values for game design and concepts of fun, and yet I've spent much less time on it than I've spent on other games, including tabletop games like 40k. And yet I still consider what I experienced with ZoE2 far more valuable than anything I've experienced while playing 40k.

And if we want to argue time to cost, well, between Demon's Souls and its Sequel, Dark Souls, a cost of around $100, I've played well over 500 hours. And if we were to compare that to the time and cost ratio to that of what I've spent playing 40k over the past 4 years now, those two games alone crush 40k by a landslide.

Your comparison is bunk, really. It's like saying there's nothing to gain from Citizen Kane because Transformers 3 will keep you occupied for 31 minutes longer, and thus a better value.

If GW is going down and they are losing sales then they need to deal with it as a company and not as an individual store. Maybe the decision making people don't know what goes down in a store and just want money.

Dayvuni wrote:If GW is going down and they are losing sales then they need to deal with it as a company and not as an individual store. Maybe the decision making people don't know what goes down in a store and just want money.

I think they do know. Thats why people kept saying they are doing it for the short term results.
In other words to satisfy the share holders.

Fafnir wrote:

Joey wrote:
Anyway I stand by my point. Compared to a lot of other hobbies it's much cheaper. It also never expires. Spend £20 on a Tactical Squad and you'll always have a painted squad that you can use.

Well, except for when GW tries to discourage the use of old models (from what I've read previously, GW has tried that). Not to mention that new codecies and rules editions frequently invalidate old setups and load outs, or make them obsolete. Not to mention the development towards making the game focus on larger armies with units that progressively cost less points, requiring further investment in order to continue to play at various levels.

GW models never become obsolete.

Fafnir wrote:

It is a physical manifestation of your imagination.

No. Either your imagination is very poor, or you're heavily underestimating the power of someone's imagination. Supermen in powered armour designed by someone else is not a manifestation of my imagination. I may assemble, pose, and paint them, but I never designed them. Now, I'm not saying that the 40k universe is dull or unimaginative, but rather, it's a manifestation of someone else's imagination, not my own.

If you don't put a part of yourself into the models you paint then frankly I pity you.

Fafnir wrote:

Games are fun but, by and large, when they're gone they're gone.

No, they're really not. Zone of the Enders 2, my favourite game of all time, is sitting on the shelf and I can pick it up and play it whenever I want.

It's really funny too, because when you argue cost and time, ZoE2 is my favourite game of all time, and has had the largest impact on me in terms of my values for game design and concepts of fun, and yet I've spent much less time on it than I've spent on other games, including tabletop games like 40k. And yet I still consider what I experienced with ZoE2 far more valuable than anything I've experienced while playing 40k.

And if we want to argue time to cost, well, between Demon's Souls and its Sequel, Dark Souls, a cost of around $100, I've played well over 500 hours. And if we were to compare that to the time and cost ratio to that of what I've spent playing 40k over the past 4 years now, those two games alone crush 40k by a landslide.

Your comparison is bunk, really. It's like saying there's nothing to gain from Citizen Kane because Transformers 3 will keep you occupied for 31 minutes longer, and thus a better value.

Well done, you found an awesome quality game. I've spent over a thousand hours on Victoria, a game that I got for free with another game I wanted.
Proves nothing. I'd happily pay £20 for a game that kept me hooked for a few evenings, if it was good enough. Maybe replay it a few times, why not.
Models will ALWAYS be available to you. After spending a certain amount on an army you can play it whenever you like for free .

Joey wrote:
Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

I have to say, I always laugh when I see these arguments. Good luck on your foreveralone goals of 2012, I'd much rather do something with friends vs painting/building models if it would end up costing the same.

BRB, gonna go paint some models instead of enjoying life with friends

Joey wrote:If you don't put a part of yourself into the models you paint then frankly I pity you..

The man has 321 galleries, did you take that into consideration at all before you made that post?

Joey wrote:
GW models never become obsolete.

Yes, I'm aware that you can disregard the point completely, but please refrain from dodging the topic, I'm not fond of that.

Fafnir wrote:

It is a physical manifestation of your imagination.

No. Either your imagination is very poor, or you're heavily underestimating the power of someone's imagination. Supermen in powered armour designed by someone else is not a manifestation of my imagination. I may assemble, pose, and paint them, but I never designed them. Now, I'm not saying that the 40k universe is dull or unimaginative, but rather, it's a manifestation of someone else's imagination, not my own.

If you don't put a part of yourself into the models you paint then frankly I pity you.

I have better facets for my own imagination to develop ideas that are all my own.

Also, what Luna said.

Fafnir wrote:
Models will ALWAYS be available to you. After spending a certain amount on an army you can play it whenever you like for free .

And fancy that, so will digital games. I can pop in my copy of ZoE2 right now and play it for free too!

Joey wrote:
Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

Anyone that says 40k is stream lined never seen YMDC forum, which is in Dakka.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

LunaHound wrote:Anyone that says 40k is stream lined never seen YMDC forum, which is in Dakka.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

Exalted.

LunaHound wrote:Anyone that says 40k is stream lined never seen YMDC forum, which is in Dakka.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

Twice.

I would argue that 40k is an attempt at a streamlined game, but in all the wrong ways. They've attempted to streamline it, but then step backwards and mess it all up. One great example of this is how many Ward codecies involve characters with special rules which ignore or go against rules in the main book itself.

In an attempt to break things down (such as universal special rules, standardized movement rates, wound allocation), they've ended up making one big mess of things.

purplefood wrote:

Isengard wrote:
I left after I witnessed the cold-bloodedeness of that regime first hand. I got in one day to find the regioanl manager (who was a deeply unpleasant man) and a couple of guys I did not know in the shop. He asked who I was and I asked him where the manager was as I had seen him a couple of days previously and I was expecting him to be in. he told me he had had issues with the store and therefore had come in and sacked all the staff present. I survived because I was not in that day, although he cheerfully told me he would have scaked me too. he said the policy was a clean sweep, sack the entire store staff and start over.

How did they do this?
AFAIK you cannot just up and sack an entire store staff just because the feeling strikes you the Employment Rights Act gives employees the right not to be unfairly dismissed by his employer.

Stores are/were fiefdoms unto themselves and are governed by the area managers, a lot of things GW does are probably not allowed by employment law (I seem to recall a story of them getting their knickers in a twist when they found out one of their staff who had to go up to head office to get a disciplinary was a member of USDAW. GW staff cannot be members of unions apparently).

If a store was doing bad head office would send in the inquisition (yes, really) to remove any of the taint. If said manager's "taint" had spread to all of the staff the store would be "virus bombed" and cleansed of all existing staff. And, no I am not making this up. I'm sure some other who have actually worked for GW can fill in the blanks here, but many of these things were told to me by a 10 year veteran of GW, so I take them as being somewhat accurate.

See this

LunaHound wrote:

Redbeard wrote:But the managers take the blame for falling sales figures. Doesn't make sense to me. First take away their power to make changes, and then punish them when the corporate mandates don't work. Yeah, that's GW.

The store manager told me this, I didn't really understand it so I'll try to recall what I remember ( no doubt I'll be missing pieces of info )

In order to close down a store, they need to hire a bunch of new staff and manager.
They dont care for the staff's competence of attendance as they just need someone to fill the store for 1 month.

After 1 month they'll fire all the staff ( they weren't even properly trained ) they'll "reboot" the shop.

I can't remember what reboot meant or what advantage this has for GW, maybe you know?

And this.

Isengard wrote:It's fascinating how GW approaches have changed since i worked for them back in the early 90s. That was the time when Ansell sold the company on to the accountants and they moved from a for gamers by gamers approach to a purely commerical sell-sell-sell approach.

When that started they brought in several new things which made life harder: first they changed the stocks to Citadel only. They cut out the RPG lines etc. Then they instructed us to get rid of regular customers. Their rationale seemed to be that a new customer spends lots and then as they become a regular they stop buying so much and come in to shoot the breeze. We were ordered to actively discourage regulars by not speaking to them and concetrating on speaking to new arrivals and especially kids. To enforce this secret shoppers were deployed to catch staff who spoke to regulars.

I left after I witnessed the cold-bloodedeness of that regime first hand. I got in one day to find the regioanl manager (who was a deeply unpleasant man) and a couple of guys I did not know in the shop. He asked who I was and I asked him where the manager was as I had seen him a couple of days previously and I was expecting him to be in. he told me he had had issues with the store and therefore had come in and sacked all the staff present. I survived because I was not in that day, although he cheerfully told me he would have scaked me too. he said the policy was a clean sweep, sack the entire store staff and start over.

They seem much keener on regulars now and actively try to make you at least comfortable. They have rowed back on a lot of their harsher policies such as not being allowed to use older generations of Citadel figures, no conversions, etc. They let you play with unpainted figures too. In my day people could not come into the shop with their own armies and play games like they can now.

One of the reasons I got back into this was the new attitude and set up of the stores. When I quit I vowed I would never give them another single penny of my cash.

Its not an coincidence /wink. I do know goes on behind the scene.
Oo thanks for the explanation Grimtuff :'D

Joey wrote:You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

A game is a game. When you can get into one game and keep playing it for years or more for the price equivalent of a single, unpainted unit, one of them is expensive.
For the equivalent of one WH40k Army, including paints, you can keep playing for decades. It worked pretty well for me.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Oh, well, you picked the worst game currently popular. So let's pick the worst possible ten man squad then, shall we? What's the cost a ten man squad of SoB again?
Mass Effect 3 took me longer to complete than painting and assembling a unit of 20 ork shoota boyz and it even has that awesome multiplayer mode which you can sink time in after completing the game. And while boyz are one of the cheapest per model unit, they were still more expensive than ME3.

Or the basic rules of most P&P games. In terms of nerdy man toyz, warhammer is about as expensive as it gets.

Right, because rulebooks+plastic models cost more than just rulebooks. Great job.

Great job at completely missing the point, I'd rather say. The BRB and the BGB are both more expesive than the base rules of any P&P game. And you need a codex to play, too. So just for the 40k rules you could get 3-4 rule books for any P&P system you like to play.
The point was, you can get into any P&P hobby by buying a book, and start playing for months and years. If you buy a box of marines and paint, your busy for no longer than a week. To actually get into 40k you have to get at least AOBR and a painter's starter set. In any other hobby, that kind of money sets you up for years.
So playing 40k is a waste of money, no matter how you look at it. Saying that having miniatures gathering dust on a shelf is a better waste of money than getting smashed and having fun for the evening is hypocrisy at best.

You genuinely want a "perfect" ruleset. That renders everything you say about GW invalid.

You must be one of those people who have been brainwashed by GW to think that perfect rules are impossible to archive.
That's a myth. If perfect rules could not be archived, then how is possible to program any real time strategy game ever? Very few of those simply crash and refuse to continue when a certain event happens. And no RTS is more or less complex than a tabletob game, GW is simply unable to playtest or even make simple test, like checking a new special rule against every other model out there. Considering that half the models are space marines with almost no difference in rules, that should be done in about a day. One day to provide an FAQ at launch of a codex for the interaction of two rules which might conflict. You know, like every other company selling rules - or even giving them out for free.
MTG has a 200 page rulebook which leaves absolutely no room for interpretation, and is perfectly readable. Any rules question can definitely answered within minutes, no RAW vs RAI, no "How would you play it", no YMDC, no dicing off. You simply have an answer.

If you believe that GW rules are as good as they get, you are as much as fool as someone thinking that Windows98 was the best windows ever.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

This, a thousand times over. Besides, most people buying that series aren't exactly playing the single-player campaign, but spend days, if not weeks in playtime online shooting each other. That's more time than painting ten miniatures, too.

Hey, 98 was solid for its time! Sure, it was no XP, but it wasn't terrible!

Are we both talking about the OS that let you delete other people's files if you had nothing but their IP?

Unless that person knew how to lock down their system, of course, in the days before firewalls and virus scanners available for everyone.

As a little boy at the time, Windows 98 was the coolest thing ever. And it played games that weren't Nicolai's Trains.

You wouldn't believe how freaking awesome that is for an 8-year-old.

Jidmah wrote:

Joey wrote:You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

A game is a game. When you can get into one game and keep playing it for years or more for the price equivalent of a single, unpainted unit, one of them is expensive.
For the equivalent of one WH40k Army, including paints, you can keep playing for decades. It worked pretty well for me.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Oh, well, you picked the worst game currently popular. So let's pick the worst possible ten man squad then, shall we? What's the cost a ten man squad of SoB again?
Mass Effect 3 took me longer to complete than painting and assembling a unit of 20 ork shoota boyz and it even has that awesome multiplayer mode which you can sink time in after completing the game. And while boyz are one of the cheapest per model unit, they were still more expensive than ME3.

Or the basic rules of most P&P games. In terms of nerdy man toyz, warhammer is about as expensive as it gets.

Right, because rulebooks+plastic models cost more than just rulebooks. Great job.

Great job at completely missing the point, I'd rather say. The BRB and the BGB are both more expesive than the base rules of any P&P game. And you need a codex to play, too. So just for the 40k rules you could get 3-4 rule books for any P&P system you like to play.
The point was, you can get into any P&P hobby by buying a book, and start playing for months and years. If you buy a box of marines and paint, your busy for no longer than a week. To actually get into 40k you have to get at least AOBR and a painter's starter set. In any other hobby, that kind of money sets you up for years.
So playing 40k is a waste of money, no matter how you look at it. Saying that having miniatures gathering dust on a shelf is a better waste of money than getting smashed and having fun for the evening is hypocrisy at best.

You genuinely want a "perfect" ruleset. That renders everything you say about GW invalid.

You must be one of those people who have been brainwashed by GW to think that perfect rules are impossible to archive.
That's a myth. If perfect rules could not be archived, then how is possible to program any real time strategy game ever? Very few of those simply crash and refuse to continue when a certain event happens. And no RTS is more or less complex than a tabletob game, GW is simply unable to playtest or even make simple test, like checking a new special rule against every other model out there. Considering that half the models are space marines with almost no difference in rules, that should be done in about a day. One day to provide an FAQ at launch of a codex for the interaction of two rules which might conflict. You know, like every other company selling rules - or even giving them out for free.
MTG has a 200 page rulebook which leaves absolutely no room for interpretation, and is perfectly readable. Any rules question can definitely answered within minutes, no RAW vs RAI, no "How would you play it", no YMDC, no dicing off. You simply have an answer.

If you believe that GW rules are as good as they get, you are as much as fool as someone thinking that Windows98 was the best windows ever.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

This, a thousand times over. Besides, most people buying that series aren't exactly playing the single-player campaign, but spend days, if not weeks in playtime online shooting each other. That's more time than painting ten miniatures, too.

I assume you don't buy any models then since they're so expensive?
Pretty much the definition of "too expensive" is choosing not to buy something. I mean, the gall of these people to charge £20-£30 for something that will keep you entertained for weeks (months, years).

Days *before* virus scanners? You jest.... yes people often didnt stick a firewall on, meaning their C$ default share (sgh, ms!) was wide open

Was handy when working at HP and we got hit by code red (oneof the ones that spread through network shares, and IIS, from memory) - there was a rogue 98 machine sittingspewing garbage at me, and noone claimed ownership - one rewrite of autoexec.bat later, to halt boot with a "get this machine cleaned up!" and a reboot later, all was sorted....

I run XP with no firewall or anti-virus and it's fine.
I do use Spybot for the spyware though. The internet's a lot safer than you'd think.

It really isnt. You can get by without AV, if youre careful, and I imagine youre actually running NT5 behind a NAT, correct? You do realise thats also esssentially a stateful firewall?

Joey wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Joey wrote:You mean a card game costs less than highly-detailed plastic models? Well blow me down.

A game is a game. When you can get into one game and keep playing it for years or more for the price equivalent of a single, unpainted unit, one of them is expensive.
For the equivalent of one WH40k Army, including paints, you can keep playing for decades. It worked pretty well for me.

Please do not circumvent our word filter. Thanks Manchu

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=amb_link_163789787_2?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A300703%2Ck%3AB007WPF2OK%7CB007WPF718%7CB007WPF7FE&page=1&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1VPSR9MSHS42F32NXD19&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=293278887&pf_rd_i=300703
PC/Console games cost a bucket-load and will probably be quicker to complete than to paint a ten-man squad.

Oh, well, you picked the worst game currently popular. So let's pick the worst possible ten man squad then, shall we? What's the cost a ten man squad of SoB again?
Mass Effect 3 took me longer to complete than painting and assembling a unit of 20 ork shoota boyz and it even has that awesome multiplayer mode which you can sink time in after completing the game. And while boyz are one of the cheapest per model unit, they were still more expensive than ME3.

Or the basic rules of most P&P games. In terms of nerdy man toyz, warhammer is about as expensive as it gets.

Right, because rulebooks+plastic models cost more than just rulebooks. Great job.

Great job at completely missing the point, I'd rather say. The BRB and the BGB are both more expesive than the base rules of any P&P game. And you need a codex to play, too. So just for the 40k rules you could get 3-4 rule books for any P&P system you like to play.
The point was, you can get into any P&P hobby by buying a book, and start playing for months and years. If you buy a box of marines and paint, your busy for no longer than a week. To actually get into 40k you have to get at least AOBR and a painter's starter set. In any other hobby, that kind of money sets you up for years.
So playing 40k is a waste of money, no matter how you look at it. Saying that having miniatures gathering dust on a shelf is a better waste of money than getting smashed and having fun for the evening is hypocrisy at best.

You genuinely want a "perfect" ruleset. That renders everything you say about GW invalid.

You must be one of those people who have been brainwashed by GW to think that perfect rules are impossible to archive.
That's a myth. If perfect rules could not be archived, then how is possible to program any real time strategy game ever? Very few of those simply crash and refuse to continue when a certain event happens. And no RTS is more or less complex than a tabletob game, GW is simply unable to playtest or even make simple test, like checking a new special rule against every other model out there. Considering that half the models are space marines with almost no difference in rules, that should be done in about a day. One day to provide an FAQ at launch of a codex for the interaction of two rules which might conflict. You know, like every other company selling rules - or even giving them out for free.
MTG has a 200 page rulebook which leaves absolutely no room for interpretation, and is perfectly readable. Any rules question can definitely answered within minutes, no RAW vs RAI, no "How would you play it", no YMDC, no dicing off. You simply have an answer.

If you believe that GW rules are as good as they get, you are as much as fool as someone thinking that Windows98 was the best windows ever.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Your point may have been better made by selecting a game series that isn't known for having a 4 hour long campaign and being ridiculously over-priced, I can't remember ever seeing anyone else charge £40 for a PC game without it being a special edition. For the PC you can buy Skyrim for under £30, Mass Effect 3 for under £20 (in fact you could get all 3 Mass Effect games for under £40).

This, a thousand times over. Besides, most people buying that series aren't exactly playing the single-player campaign, but spend days, if not weeks in playtime online shooting each other. That's more time than painting ten miniatures, too.

I assume you don't buy any models then since they're so expensive?
Pretty much the definition of "too expensive" is choosing not to buy something. I mean, the gall of these people to charge £20-£30 for something that will keep you entertained for weeks (months, years).

Okay, wow. This is all strawman logic, not to mention completely broken, in terms of definition.

First of, the whole 'I assume you don't buy any models then since they're so expensive?' thing? Entirely baseless. He never said anything about not buying models, just that GW models are very expensive. Which, compared to other games, they are. NOT, that they were so prohibitively expensive that he'd never buy them. Not that you specified GW, just models in general, which just adds on more fail to your argument. Basically, what you just pulled is textbook strawman. He said one thing, and you extrapolated from that a completely exagerated model of what he actually said, and attacked that with your rebuttal. Basically, your counter-argument was launched against something that NOBODY ACTUALLY SAID, thereby accomplishing nothing.

Also, when you define 'too expensive', you're just wrong. Too expensive is not a word in a book, it is a concept, and it is his decision as to what too expensive means to him, and what he does when things are too expensive. Yes, to me, personally, GW models and games and nicknacks are 'too expensive'... For me to be buying $500 worth of the crap on a monthly basis. That doesn't however, mean I can't drop, say, ~$160 for three Land Raiders, and make that my pet project for a summer. It's my term to define. Not yours.

He's saying something subjective that I am subjectively disagreeing with.
So obviously I'm wrong because anyone who doesn't hate GW is probably Matt Ward in a Draigo suit, miright?
Also lol

Too expensive is not a word in a book, it is a concept,

It's my term to define. Not yours.

Megalols.
Also, yes. Something is too expensive if the cost prevents you from purchasing it. Something is expensive if it's expensive but you still buy it.
I just don't see why people insist on whinging about the price when they still buy it.
Take the cinema, it's obviously too expensive, but do you really hear people say "Oh man the Avengers was awesome but THE BASTARDS WERE CHARGING A TENNER RAHH CORPORATE GREED spankers". No, you don't.
Expensive!=Too expensive.

Joey wrote:He's saying something subjective that I am subjectively disagreeing with.
So obviously I'm wrong because anyone who doesn't hate GW is probably Matt Ward in a Draigo suit, miright?
Also lol

Too expensive is not a word in a book, it is a concept,

It's my term to define. Not yours.

Megalols.
Also, yes. Something is too expensive if the cost prevents you from purchasing it. Something is expensive if it's expensive but you still buy it.
I just don't see why people insist on whinging about the price when they still buy it.
Take the cinema, it's obviously too expensive, but do you really hear people say "Oh man the Avengers was awesome but THE BASTARDS WERE CHARGING A TENNER RAHH CORPORATE GREED spankers". No, you don't.
Expensive!=Too expensive.

Well, you're doing it again. I never actually said that. It's one thing when you argue over opinions, but what you're doing is basing your argument on words that were never said. Do you understand? While I do have serious issues with how GW manages and markets its game, and with the game itself, I still like it. And just because I like it, doesn't mean I'm Matt Ward in a Draigo Suit. I would totally be Edward Elric dressed up as Link, if we're talking cosplay. But I digress. Basically, you're the only person who actually said something that crazy. You're arguing with yourself.

And you're still missing the point. It's not that black and white. If you had a girlfriend, say, and your first anniversary was coming up, would you take her out to a nice dinner? Quite possibly. I know I would, and I know I'm not alone. But would you proceed to go to that expensive steakhouse every week? No. That's TOO expensive. It doesn't just apply to the product, it applies to the rate at which the product is consumed. GW's prices are high enough to prohibit me from shelling out $120 a month for a tactical squad each week. That doesn't mean I'm NEVER going to buy ANYTHING GW makes because it's all TOO EXPENSIVE. That's a child's way of thinking. You find a way to fit it into your budget, however it may fit.

Then why are you argueing with me?
I originally replied to someone to said "the price is simply unjustifiable " and was complaining about the rules being imperfect.
I'm also a pretty slow painter so there's that. I could paint a single guard model in an avening to an *acceptable* standard. There's no way I could paint a tactical squad in a week though.
I guess people who paint really fast are getting less value for money...

Joey wrote:Then why are you argueing with me?
I originally replied to someone to said "the price is simply unjustifiable " and was complaining about the rules being imperfect.
I'm also a pretty slow painter so there's that. I could paint a single guard model in an avening to an *acceptable* standard. There's no way I could paint a tactical squad in a week though.
I guess people who paint really fast are getting less value for money...

What I'm trying to explain to you is that that isn't something for you to decide. If he thinks it's worth it to him, then it is. If not, then you have no place or ability to say anything to the contrary. That person thinks that it's not worth his money. If that bothers you, then you're just going to have to deal with it.

And the rules are imperfect. At times, they're downright atrocious. One thing that Blizzard did get right when they ripped off 40k was they made it into as close to a flawlessly balanced game as they could. That's why it took damn near ten years for Starcraft II to come out. The team responsible said that they would not release it unless it was as close to perfect as possible. Contrast that to GW, who have a habit of just releasing things without properly balancing and play-testing them, as well as making bad rules in general, though that is open for interpretation and opinion. The end point is that saying GW's rules are imperfect is spot on. Whether that level of imperfection is within tolerable limits is another thing entirely. For you, it seems to be. I just spent $500 a few days ago ordering all the supplies I need to get started, so clearly, I'm willing to accept the fact that the game isn't perfect. But if someone says they can't accept that, and that bothers you, for some reason, again. Deal with it, because it's not going away.

So no one should ever disagree with anyone on something that's subjective, ever?
It's true that the price is as frustrating as your income - when I was unemployed it was much harder finding the spare dosh for some models, working full time, less so.
I don't hold with the idea that the rules are "broken" though. Outside of one or two nigglers (wound allocation of multiple AP weapons leaps to mind) the rules are alright.
Yes GK/SW/BA are more powerful than other codexes for no obvious reason but they can all be defeated, or avoided if you like.

I think this thread has come to the end of the line.

Joey wrote:I assume you don't buy any models then since they're so expensive?
Pretty much the definition of "too expensive" is choosing not to buy something. I mean, the gall of these people to charge £20-£30 for something that will keep you entertained for weeks (months, years).

Wow. You waste so much space by quoting my entire post just to answer to the first sentence? And on top of that you assume something which I just told you the very opposite of? That hit ratio would even be an insult to ork shooting.

On top of that, the word "too" never appeared in my post at all. Warhammer40k was too expensive for me when I was a kid and I saw all those awesome tanks and dragons behind glas at the store where I bought my magic cards. Almost twenty years later I have a job and can afford to have a decent ork army, thousands of magic cards, a good number of P&P books, dozens of pc games and still go out with my friends. What you are saying is when I chose to spend my hobby money for the month that I'm wasting it unless I spend it on GW miniatures. That, personal opinion or not, is utter nonsense.

Joey wrote:I run XP with no firewall or anti-virus and it's fine.
I do use Spybot for the spyware though. The internet's a lot safer than you'd think.

Almost all modern malware is spyware. The days of viruses bombing your pc with not safe for work images are over.
Spybot is nothing but an anti-virus program with additional features.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It really isnt. You can get by without AV, if youre careful, and I imagine youre actually running NT5 behind a NAT, correct? You do realise thats also esssentially a stateful firewall?

This. If you got any device at all from your ISP, you can bet your hat on it being configured as a firewall.

Joey wrote:So no one should ever disagree with anyone on something that's subjective, ever?
It's true that the price is as frustrating as your income - when I was unemployed it was much harder finding the spare dosh for some models, working full time, less so.
I don't hold with the idea that the rules are "broken" though. Outside of one or two nigglers (wound allocation of multiple AP weapons leaps to mind) the rules are alright.
Yes GK/SW/BA are more powerful than other codexes for no obvious reason but they can all be defeated, or avoided if you like.

Again, straw-man logic. You're the only one who said that. Nobody said you can't put in your two cents. Nobody said you can't discuss things. But you can't honestly expect to get anywhere with it. He thinks this, you think that. The beginning of any legitimate, reasonable conversation is a respect for what the other person has to say as a legitimate viewpoint, based on reasonable factors.

For example, take the idea of GW rules being 'Broken'. You can say that you don't think they are. But the moment you say that anyone who thinks that the rules are broken is just 'complaining', you've compromised all the legitimacy of anything you may have to say. Nobody can take you seriously if you don't take them seriously.

Edit: Also, Jidmah, your sig is seriously the BOMB.

Joey wrote:
Matt Ward in a Draigo suit

i...would like to see that...

Jidmah wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It really isnt. You can get by without AV, if youre careful, and I imagine youre actually running NT5 behind a NAT, correct? You do realise thats also esssentially a stateful firewall?

This. If you got any device at all from your ISP, you can bet your hat on it being configured as a firewall.

Not even then - in order for NAT to work (and the chances Joey DOESNT have a standard router and switch box and instead has a direct old dial up modem hooked straight into the PC is very low) it has to act as a stateful firewall, using packet inspection to determine how to strip / add the appropriate IPs in. It is simply a firewall that you cant really configure all that well (you can normally stick some crude rules in, nothing major) and that isnt particularly fast, but it does the job, which is giving you a class C to play in when you only have a single DHCP'd address to the outside world.

tl;dr: if you use a modem / router to connect to the net, you are almost certainly sat behind a firewall you dont even know about.

TermiesInARaider wrote:It's gonna be a damn shame if GW goes under, because I personally love this game. I wish it was smarter, I wish it was more balanced, I wish it was managed better and more ethically, with more faith to the people who love it, but I do love it. And I'd be sad to see it go. :/

I definitely agree with this. I still enjoy 40k, warts and all and still love GW's mins as well. Wish the company would wake up a bit and realize that the wolves are nipping at their heels and make some changes to make sure they stay around for a while. I would be *happier* if they fixed some stuff. 40k is still the one game that completely out of the blue I'll decide to start building a completely new army just from looking at the minis.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:Anyway I stand by my point. Compared to a lot of other hobbies it's much cheaper. It also never expires. Spend £20 on a Tactical Squad and you'll always have a painted squad that you can use. It is a physical manifestation of your imagination. Games are fun but, by and large, when they're gone they're gone.
Particularly games like COD and FIFA that are essentially DLCs with an insane price tag (as you allude to).

How do games do away? I buy a game for my XBox and I can play it for as long as I like. Heck I still have my original NES system and am playing games that I bought 23 years ago for it. Meanwhile I cannot play any of my WFB or 40k armies from my early days in the game 20+ years ago because the genestealer cult hasn't been a legal list for a long time, and Chaos and Undead both got split into two completely separate and different armies that I didn't have enough points of either to play regular sized games with.

Skriker

There are 3 gamestores in my city (that I know of) that sell 40k products and have a good size selection. One of them is a Games Workshop outlet, the other are FLGS. The GW store is the closest to me, about 5 mins away.

The guy who runs it is SUPER awesome. I've spent quite a bit of time just shooting the breeze with him, so that's a plus side for the store. I also get free shipping on any products I order online, since they just ship them to the store where I can pick them up.

On the downside, there are only 3 tables in the store. 1 always has promo products on it, and the other two have almost no terrain on them, so no one ever plays there. I always have to go to one of the other FLGS to get games in (which is fine, because the proprietors of those stores do a really good job and treat their community well).

Interestingly, the manager of the GW store is pretty open about the corporate policies. They force him to display his products a certain way, carry certain quantities of things, and focus all his energy on pushing products instead of getting a good community going. GW has some pretty idiotic policies, and those are largely the reason that no one goes to that store to play. I'm fairly confident that the store won't last very long in my area because they don't support any type of community relations whatsoever.

Even though I would love to play at the GW store because its much closer to me than the FLGS, the corporate policies are completely anti-community and prevent people from playing at the store. Despite the fact that I like the manager and it's actually easier for me to buy products at the GW store, I have to support my FLGS because it's where I play. If the FLGS went out of business, I wouldn't have anywhere to play. This is a simple, direct example of how, even with a good manager and a good spot for a store, corporate GW policies still push away a customer.

Despite the idiocy, I find it funny that people always make the "GW is totally going out of business" argument. GW has turned a profit every year for at least 2 decades, even during this current recession. Even with poor policies and bad rulebooks, they're still making a profit, so I don't think they're going out of business anytime soon.

MadmanMSU wrote:Interestingly, the manager of the GW store is pretty open about the corporate policies. They force him to display his products a certain way, carry certain quantities of things, and focus all his energy on pushing products instead of getting a good community going. GW has some pretty idiotic policies, and those are largely the reason that no one goes to that store to play. I'm fairly confident that the store won't last very long in my area because they don't support any type of community relations whatsoever.

Despite the idiocy, I find it funny that people always make the "GW is totally going out of business" argument. GW has turned a profit every year for at least 2 decades, even during this current recession. Even with poor policies and bad rulebooks, they're still making a profit, so I don't think they're going out of business anytime soon.

Of course GW isn't the only company guilty of stupid policies. I worked for a hobby store back in the mid '90s that grew from a single mom and pop store. They eventually got up to about 7 separate stores, but they stocked EVERY store the same because they wanted to cover every possible contingency, so we had no control over our stock at all. We could show them sales figures where we sold 0 paint by number sets and massive numbers of another product, but they wouldn't let us turn any of the paint by number shelving over to support the popular products, so often we had just enough of anyone thing to make customers come in and then leave frustrated because we didn't have enough of it. So GW isn't really alone there. Not surprisingly this chain collapsed back down to its original store because they had no clue on how to run a chain and wouldn't let their managers be anything other than overglorified errand boys.

The reason that GW has turned a profit every year is because they keep raising their prices for no apparent reason other than to keep their profits up. They sell *less* product, but make their profits. They've been doing that for a long time now and for part of that time there really wasn't much of an alternative market out there except for historicals for competition. The simple fact now is, though, that there are companies out there doing it better than GW now that enable people to play their games for less money, with better written rules and less issues. That is going to start telling on GW if they don't change their attitudes. Eventually they will price themselves out of the market if they just keep up with raising prices as a profit plan. They need to start doing things differently. During the time they had no compeition they had a free hand to really set themselves up as the pre-eminent miniatures gaming company going forward for decades, but instead they used the time to milk their customers of as much cash as they could. Now they are reaching that breaking point. Many people can't even consider playing 40k or WFB. It is just too expensive for them. These aren't little kids trying to make an army on a small allowance, but people with jobs and real income that can't afford the initial outlay to get into the game. Any new friends I try to get into the hobby look at the price tag and say, "No thanks!" and I have some very well paid friends.

Skriker

I don't believe GW models are prohibitively expensive. In actuality they are just about the same (or better) than other game systems. Lets look at some examples:

Warmachines: While it may be cheaper to build an army in warmachine since its armies are smaller, per model the models are pretty much the same price. Only difference is GW models normally have more parts/larger/come with more units and options and some of the kits can actually be two different models with some extra work with magnets.

Dust tactics: Not sure on the investment you need to make for a whole army but the models themselves cost 15-20 for a 4-5 man squad or 25-30 for a walker. Really as close as makes no difference in my opinion except it doesn't look like the squads have any options whatsoever.

Battletech: Not really a comparable game but I play this mostly. You mostly limited to pewter figures which run 10-15 each which is about the same as most of the finecast/old metals. Of course you dont have to buy a lot of stuff but me and others are usually of the opinion "need one of everything for different games" since in battletech you dont normally run the same unit over and over unless your doing a campaign. Because of this I have over 200 Mechs, vehicles, etc and others I know have upwards of 400-600. Goddamn is my carrying case heavy btw.

Basically any game that includes model armies is going to be expensive. Whether or not you or anyone else is willing to pay to play is another matter. Most of my gw stuff I buy used on ebay and what i buy new i get from my flgs.

As far as the ruleset goes, I agree it needs some work but a complete reboot would probably piss off more people than it pleases. I just hope it becomes more balanced and streamlined in the future

I prefer my FLGS to the local GW store here because of more space to play (10-15 tables worth of space opposed to 3), no hard sales pitch for GW products and a discount for pre-ordering product. They also carry resin bits for conversions and other miniatures that I've used for proxies of GW figs in Finecast, such as the Dark Age Ice Elemental I'm using for a C'tan shard....



With mine I painted the body Tin Bitz and highlighted with Dwarven Bronze and the crystals in greens, ending with a Snot Green highlight. Looks pretty good.

keisukekun wrote:I don't believe GW models are prohibitively expensive. In actuality they are just about the same (or better) than other game systems. Lets look at some examples:

On a per model basis GW isn't necessarily all that off in terms of pricing, though they have definitely started to eclipse others even there. Where you not $10-15 per model for many manufacturers, looking at GW's finecast offerings, most single models are $18.25-$24 with the cheapest models being in excess of $15, definitely on the more expensive side.

The other issue is that for GW games, you need a hell of a lot more models to play. It's one thing to charge $10-15/model when you only need a 8-12 of them. It's quite another when you need several dozen plus vehicles. The cost of a 2000pt mechanized IG army would get me a fully playable army of every faction for Infinity or Heavy Gear with cash to spare. If I made my current IG tournament army from scratch at MSRP, it'd be over $1,400 before paints, glue, codex, rulebook, etc. Even a cheaper SM army would run ~$600. An Infinity army would run me maybe $120, ~$175 with hardcover rulebook, and you can make a perfectly good starting army with the $115 Heavy Gear starter set that includes rulebook, army lists, rules update book, dice and tape measure.

I was actuality talking about this with my FLGS owner. Its not directly a GW store but most of his stuff is GW he sells some model stuff but i digress. The thing is, pure GW stores, especially in the US, are hurting GW, they are trying to phase them out, it cost them a lot more time money and resources to get a store, hire staff and stock the place then it is to simply have someone order it from them and ship it out. Its purely an economical dissension, its not GW trying to be donkey-caves, its them trying to keep their business afloat. I like the GW stores and wish there was one where I live, mostly just for the resources and having anything i need for my army right there and ready to go. On the flip side I do rather enjoy having a local owned store, yes some times things are not stocked, and getting things stocked depends on sales, but i like the feel and friendliness of them.

Joey wrote:Then why are you argueing with me?
I originally replied to someone to said "the price is simply unjustifiable " and was complaining about the rules being imperfect.
I'm also a pretty slow painter so there's that. I could paint a single guard model in an avening to an *acceptable* standard. There's no way I could paint a tactical squad in a week though.
I guess people who paint really fast are getting less value for money...

Everything you said in that quote is extremely ill thought out.

How fast you "Joey" personally paints, or enjoys is irrelevant with other people.
What you find enjoyable or fun holds no water on anyone else but yourself.

"people who paint really fast are getting less value for money" is one of the funniest thing I have read on dakka.
Because.
1) You dont know whether they enjoy painting of not.
2) You dont know how efficient they are
3) You dont know if once they finish painting, they can go on to game with it sooner or not.

So far everything you said in this thread holds no ground other then speaking for yourself.

Vaktathi wrote:

keisukekun wrote:I don't believe GW models are prohibitively expensive. In actuality they are just about the same (or better) than other game systems. Lets look at some examples:

On a per model basis GW isn't necessarily all that off in terms of pricing, though they have definitely started to eclipse others even there. Where you not $10-15 per model for many manufacturers, looking at GW's finecast offerings, most single models are $18.25-$24 with the cheapest models being in excess of $15, definitely on the more expensive side.

The other issue is that for GW games, you need a hell of a lot more models to play. It's one thing to charge $10-15/model when you only need a 8-12 of them. It's quite another when you need several dozen plus vehicles. The cost of a 2000pt mechanized IG army would get me a fully playable army of every faction for Infinity or Heavy Gear with cash to spare. If I made my current IG tournament army from scratch at MSRP, it'd be over $1,400 before paints, glue, codex, rulebook, etc. Even a cheaper SM army would run ~$600. An Infinity army would run me maybe $120, ~$175 with hardcover rulebook, and you can make a perfectly good starting army with the $115 Heavy Gear starter set that includes rulebook, army lists, rules update book, dice and tape measure.

I think the issue there is that Infinity and heavy gear and warmachines are smaller scale skirmish games while 40k and fantasy are more about pitting large armies against large armies. Naturally more models cost more money especially if you run a heavy mechanized list. One issue I think GW has is their heavy support is undervalued point wise and underpowered making it necessary to buy a lot of it to do a mechanized list which gets expensive. I think it be interesting to see 40k go the way of fantasy with more limits on the those types of units. from what i understand this is one reason why fantasy is much more balanced since spamming is not really possible

Grimtuff wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Isengard wrote:
I left after I witnessed the cold-bloodedeness of that regime first hand. I got in one day to find the regioanl manager (who was a deeply unpleasant man) and a couple of guys I did not know in the shop. He asked who I was and I asked him where the manager was as I had seen him a couple of days previously and I was expecting him to be in. he told me he had had issues with the store and therefore had come in and sacked all the staff present. I survived because I was not in that day, although he cheerfully told me he would have scaked me too. he said the policy was a clean sweep, sack the entire store staff and start over.

How did they do this?
AFAIK you cannot just up and sack an entire store staff just because the feeling strikes you the Employment Rights Act gives employees the right not to be unfairly dismissed by his employer.

Stores are/were fiefdoms unto themselves and are governed by the area managers, a lot of things GW does are probably not allowed by employment law (I seem to recall a story of them getting their knickers in a twist when they found out one of their staff who had to go up to head office to get a disciplinary was a member of USDAW. GW staff cannot be members of unions apparently).

If a store was doing bad head office would send in the inquisition (yes, really) to remove any of the taint. If said manager's "taint" had spread to all of the staff the store would be "virus bombed" and cleansed of all existing staff. And, no I am not making this up. I'm sure some other who have actually worked for GW can fill in the blanks here, but many of these things were told to me by a 10 year veteran of GW, so I take them as being somewhat accurate.

Well then the people who are sacked have grounds to make an appeal...
Admittedly they will only get maybe 2-3 months pay but it's better than nothing...

I'm going to jump on the expensive band wagon simply because I agree they are WAY to expensive for what you get. A couple of plastic pieces, then I have to buy the glue and the paint. Lame.

I'd be way more willing to buy models and start more armies and spend more money on GW items if they droped their price. Almost 70 dollars for a Valkyrie...give me a break

the last time I bought any models was when the new IG codex came out and I havent purchased any since.

keisukekun wrote:I don't believe GW models are prohibitively expensive. In actuality they are just about the same (or better) than other game systems. Lets look at some examples:

On a fig per fig basis your arguement works, but it loses steam when you compare prices based on what is actually *needed* to play at a standard point level for the game in question. The only games I consistently find myself playing "lower point" battles regularly because of costs is 40k and WFB. I never have that problem with Flames of War, Warmchine or any of the other mini games I play, because a new player can easily invest into the "standard" level for those games with the same amount of money a new player of 40k would be able to get something like an 800 point army with. That is specifically where GW prices are just too high for what they expect for their games and their players. For 40k they need to invest close to $500 to find out they don't like the game or the army they've chosen to start playing. $500 is a lot of money to most people.

I've got parts on order from the Plastic Soldier Company to build my next Flames of War british Late war armored company. It is costing me $75 to purchase *all* of the tanks I need to create a full 1750 army just with the tanks I am buying. I will also have enough tanks to alternate if I want 1 or 2 Firefly tanks in my platoons when I play it. If I add other minis I already have I can expand the force up to 2000 points easily, all for an extra investment of $75. There is not a *single* army in 40k that you can make to a 1750 level for $75 and therer never will be. Heck you can't even just buy the 2 troops units you need for most armies for less than $70, let alone the HQ you need for a legal force and that doesn't include the rest of the 1750 points worth of army.

THAT is the big difference between GW and other games and that is why GW is expensive. Yes this hobby can get as expensive as we want it to, and the sky is the really the limit, but the most important factor for a game's continued existence is how easily and affordably that a new player can start the hobby.

Skriker

LunaHound wrote:Anyone that says 40k is stream lined never seen YMDC forum, which is in Dakka.....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/15.page

Thrice

That is true while models last longer than a dinner, in proportion to other things the price is reasonable but I don't have the number to buy much.

standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

Skriker wrote:

keisukekun wrote:I don't believe GW models are prohibitively expensive. In actuality they are just about the same (or better) than other game systems. Lets look at some examples:

On a fig per fig basis your arguement works, but it loses steam when you compare prices based on what is actually *needed* to play at a standard point level for the game in question. The only games I consistently find myself playing "lower point" battles regularly because of costs is 40k and WFB. I never have that problem with Flames of War, Warmchine or any of the other mini games I play, because a new player can easily invest into the "standard" level for those games with the same amount of money a new player of 40k would be able to get something like an 800 point army with. That is specifically where GW prices are just too high for what they expect for their games and their players. For 40k they need to invest close to $500 to find out they don't like the game or the army they've chosen to start playing. $500 is a lot of money to most people.

I've got parts on order from the Plastic Soldier Company to build my next Flames of War british Late war armored company. It is costing me $75 to purchase *all* of the tanks I need to create a full 1750 army just with the tanks I am buying. I will also have enough tanks to alternate if I want 1 or 2 Firefly tanks in my platoons when I play it. If I add other minis I already have I can expand the force up to 2000 points easily, all for an extra investment of $75. There is not a *single* army in 40k that you can make to a 1750 level for $75 and therer never will be. Heck you can't even just buy the 2 troops units you need for most armies for less than $70, let alone the HQ you need for a legal force and that doesn't include the rest of the 1750 points worth of army.

THAT is the big difference between GW and other games and that is why GW is expensive. Yes this hobby can get as expensive as we want it to, and the sky is the really the limit, but the most important factor for a game's continued existence is how easily and affordably that a new player can start the hobby.

Skriker

Yeh like i said above thats the main issue that GW requires more figures to play. 40k and WFB are about large armies versus large armies and economically they cant sell you a 1500 or 2000 point army for 100-150 bucks, they would lose too much money. They COULD change the rules to bring it down to a skirmish style game but most people want to have huge armies and that naturally costs more money.

There are many aspects to GW's business model that I hate. The switch to finecast should have made those models cheaper not more expensive especially since they are using the same goddamn molds. ALso there should be lower cost alternatives to the different rulebooks. Mainly pdf like sooo many other companies are doing. In this day in age when many people have tablets or smartphones they dont want to lug around all these different books when they could carry every rulebook , codex, and other publication on their tablet with a search function.

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Then why are you argueing with me?
I originally replied to someone to said "the price is simply unjustifiable " and was complaining about the rules being imperfect.
I'm also a pretty slow painter so there's that. I could paint a single guard model in an avening to an *acceptable* standard. There's no way I could paint a tactical squad in a week though.
I guess people who paint really fast are getting less value for money...

Everything you said in that quote is extremely ill thought out.

How fast you "Joey" personally paints, or enjoys is irrelevant with other people.
What you find enjoyable or fun holds no water on anyone else but yourself.

"people who paint really fast are getting less value for money" is one of the funniest thing I have read on dakka.
Because.
1) You dont know whether they enjoy painting of not.
2) You dont know how efficient they are
3) You dont know if once they finish painting, they can go on to game with it sooner or not.

So far everything you said in this thread holds no ground other then speaking for yourself.

The point I was making was in the context of a money versus time ratio, do try to keep up.

purplefood wrote:

LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

Hmmmm lets go with Canadians then. My own IG army would cost $823.
But lets say I get 25% discount minus 12% tax + 5% shipping fee which is $757 CDN

@Joey, before insulting me that I cant keep up with something, you should do some reading first.
Figure out why time is relative and especially why you shouldn't use it for your example.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:
Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

I have to say, I always laugh when I see these arguments. Good luck on your foreveralone goals of 2012, I'd much rather do something with friends vs painting/building models if it would end up costing the same.

BRB, gonna go paint some models instead of enjoying life with friends

Are you aware?

Auxellion wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Joey wrote:
Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?
GW is not over-priced.
And the rules may not be perfect but they're pretty streamlined on the whole. For all that people on dakka brag about other wargames they aren't nearly as acceccesable as 40k.

I have to say, I always laugh when I see these arguments. Good luck on your foreveralone goals of 2012, I'd much rather do something with friends vs painting/building models if it would end up costing the same.

BRB, gonna go paint some models instead of enjoying life with friends

Are you aware?

Hahaha yes. You see, the problem with Joey and also the OP is that they are focusing on the things in life that don't really matter.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Hahaha yes. You see, the problem with Joey and also the OP is that they are focusing on the things in life that don't really matter.

Someone said that GW models were over-priced and I disagreed. I have no idea what provokes you to think that I'm a basement-dwelling, couch-masturbating neckbeard.
If you can stop partying enough to tell me I'd be very appreciative.

KplKeegan wrote:Too many store openings. Within the span of a decade they opened around four to five stores; two of them closed, the GW headquarters moved to Tennesse, the 'Battle Bunker' moved to Laurel of all places, and the Baltimore Gamesday doesn't exist anymore...

Stores aren't seeing attendence like they used to. I'm not sure if there's a root cause or not, but my Local GW sees alot of regulars, however, I don't put it past GW to totally ruin it...

I go to the one in Owings Mills, MD. The manager is a good guy and he is the reason I buy stuff at the store. He isn't elitist and talks to people like they are people not idiots. Once he leaves though Internet Discounts here I COME!

Not all GW stores have horrible players maybe you are just being an elitist jerk and looking down on people? Our store has some good mixture of players, a couple players are odd as in scaring away women cause they think he is a rapist to a just a kid with a social disorder. No big deal you just have to learn to accept people and learn how to help them and not judge them and berate them because they aren't perfect like you think you are in your mind?

LunaHound wrote:

purplefood wrote:

LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

Hmmmm lets go with Canadians then. My own IG army would cost $823.
But lets say I get 25% discount minus 12% tax + 5% shipping fee which is $757 CDN

Okay then.
What were your original figures in?

purplefood wrote:

LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

You mentioning Australian dollars made me curious and I must check it out...

they have to pay $1158, that is $1188 USD

purplefood wrote:
Okay then.
What were your original figures in?

Original figure is in USD which would be $719 before tax and discount and shipping. (also the Canadian one didnt include army book )

Something amiss sir?

Smolo82 wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:Too many store openings. Within the span of a decade they opened around four to five stores; two of them closed, the GW headquarters moved to Tennesse, the 'Battle Bunker' moved to Laurel of all places, and the Baltimore Gamesday doesn't exist anymore...

Stores aren't seeing attendence like they used to. I'm not sure if there's a root cause or not, but my Local GW sees alot of regulars, however, I don't put it past GW to totally ruin it...

Not all GW stores have horrible players maybe you are just being an elitist jerk and looking down on people? Our store has some good mixture of players, a couple players are odd as in scaring away women cause they think he is a rapist to a just a kid with a social disorder. No big deal you just have to learn to accept people and learn how to help them and not judge them and berate them because they aren't perfect like you think you are in your mind?

What the hell are you blabbering on about? I was merely remarking on how things have changed in Maryland with store closings, the Battle Bunker moving, and Gamesday leaving. Its not good.

I take extreme offense to this. But maybe my fiendish eyes are playing tricks on me as I'm not a morally superior, soap-boxing 'person' like you are.

ITT: Rustled Jimmies

LunaHound wrote:

purplefood wrote:

LunaHound wrote:standard size GW army is $500 for 40K , $700 for Fantasy
for Warmachine, $300

Of course every game can be expended....

Warmachine if we say $500,
then GW can go Apocalypse and have Titans alone that can cost $1200.

Thus... we'll just go back to the standard price comparison :3

Are those US, Canadian or Australian dollars?

You mentioning Australian dollars made me curious and I must check it out...

they have to pay $1158, that is $1188 USD

purplefood wrote:
Okay then.
What were your original figures in?

Original figure is in USD which would be $719 before tax and discount and shipping. (also the Canadian one didnt include army book )

Something amiss sir?

No, i just like to know things
Which army was it?

purplefood wrote:
No, i just like to know things
Which army was it?

Personal questions are better done in PM, I dont want to be going OT.

Wow since when did you have such keen interest in me purple

LunaHound wrote:

purplefood wrote:
No, i just like to know things
Which army was it?

Personal questions are better done in PM, I dont want to be going OT.

Wow since when did you have such keen interest in me purple

Fair enough, do you wanna send me a PM or shall i send you one?
It's nothing personal, i get a bit confused with foreign currency and prices sometimes so i was curious.

purplefood wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

purplefood wrote:
No, i just like to know things
Which army was it?

Personal questions are better done in PM, I dont want to be going OT.

Wow since when did you have such keen interest in me purple

Fair enough, do you wanna send me a PM or shall i send you one?
It's nothing personal, i get a bit confused with foreign currency and prices sometimes so i was curious.

Well, I don't mind responding here, but if I do get banned for it... you have to take responsibility....
The reason Im not confused with foreign currency is simple... Im Tres Frugal , and Canadian prices arnt helping either.

Thus, I almost gave up with Canadian retailers ( including discount retailers ) and stick with US discount sellers.
Though buying from US is like Russian Roulette. Canadian customs if they feel like taxing me, WILL tax me 12% AND $30- $75 fee for them to dig through my order box.

Fair enough, do you wanna send me a PM or shall i send you one?

You send and tell me what I can help you with. Im not a psychic :3

Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

KplKeegan wrote:

Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

What are you referring to?

I read through the last five pages and came to that conclusion. I made a correct comment on the entire thread. That is simply what I chose to post after reading it.

Auxellion wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

What are you referring to?

I read through the last five pages and came to that conclusion. I made a correct comment on the entire thread. That is simply what I chose to post after reading it.

Ah TL;DR the majority of the pages... My bad.

riverhawks32 wrote:This is really the end of the line for me. So, GW has been making decisions that hurt our local store: removing tables, rearranging, over all making things wayyyy worse. The trainer who is a complete idiot would never work with our new manager in fixing the issues. This just in today, our manager was fired for bad sales. Am I the only one right now who wants to stop playing this hobby over stupid corporate management?

If the trainer is who I think it is he is the same guy that told our local GW to kick out all the regulars and start a new customer base based on foot traffic (there is no foot traffic in this one man location btw) He then took one of the gaming tables and made it a dedicated demo table (maybe 8 demos a month are run) and then wrote up the manager there for not selling enough core games (to who?). After the manager quit, the trainer then ingeniously put the a sell-bot employee in his place who then chased out all the regulars.

This same trainer has only been playing for 6 months so he (or GW IMO) doesnt have the slightest clue how a gaming store should be run profitably. He's essentially killed warhammer in the area for alot of people.

The strange thing is that the former manager of the store was actually increasing profit margins by not hounding every single person that came in, it was a relaxed atmosphere and the store was busy every day of the week. It shows that GW should really look at how they sell their product IMO.

I think it must be hard to have a business model that needs lots or floor space, and a prime location with people walking past. Makes for large monthly rental fees. My local FLGS has over a dozen tables and caters to magic players and war machine and flames of war. That is the ONLY reason I purchase from the local store, to support my local scene. It's kind of like the tax issues in America, everyone wants all the benefits but doesn't want to pay for them. We want a place to roll out dice and game, but we don't want to spend $66 on a storm raven, when we can get it for 50ish off a net retailer. The $16 extra you spend goes for overhead to have somewhere to play.

Now my local store is in a border town between a nicer town and a not so nice town, it's probably the reason they can afford having a two story store with tons of tables. Most GW stores are in big cities, with much higher rent and a lot less floor space. There is no way the store can make money and have enough tables for people and have enough stock on hand. It's just loose loose loose. Unless you look at the store as solely an advertising mechanisim, in which case you want to have at least one table up for every game in GW product list.

My dream GW store: 10 plus tables, 80% of the product range for sale in store INCLUDING forge world. Late hours (my local store is open untill 11pm Friday and Saturday) when does your local GW store close 8pm, 9pm?

keisukekun wrote:There are many aspects to GW's business model that I hate. The switch to finecast should have made those models cheaper not more expensive especially since they are using the same goddamn molds. ALso there should be lower cost alternatives to the different rulebooks. Mainly pdf like sooo many other companies are doing. In this day in age when many people have tablets or smartphones they dont want to lug around all these different books when they could carry every rulebook , codex, and other publication on their tablet with a search function.

They really need to run their game design studio in a more controlled fashion to make me happy. Ultimately I make stupid money so the prices don't ultimately impact me directly, just indirectly by not being able to convince friends to start playing, but there needs to be some kind of cohisive strategy and vision for a given version of whatever game is in question. Write the rules with the things you are hoping to include in the codex series in your mind. Keep power levels consistent in the books and the point costs consistent. Also can we do away with an army getting a super special rule that should obviously apply to everyone.

Years ago I bought a DVD set that had the first 250 issues of Dragon magazine in it. I would kill to see GW put out something similar that goes back to White Dwarf #1. I started reading White Dwarf around issue 12 or so and it was a very diverse magazine back then. The Dragon magazine version cost about $39.99 retail. I am imagining if GW did something similar with White Dwarf, they would charge a crazy price for it and would also not include any of the earlier issues that I would be most interested in reading through again.

I have to say that if GW started up something like D&D Insider and gave me access to the rulebooks and game content on line I'd be into that, as long as it was reasonably priced. D&D Insider is worth the cost alone just to have access to the compendium while running a 4th edition D&D game session.

Skriker

Joey wrote:
The point I was making was in the context of a money versus time ratio, do try to keep up.

And the entire money-to-time ratio is complete bs.

I can go to the hospice and listen to my senile grandmother ramble on for hours about how great things used to be when she was younger for free, but that doesn't exactly make it my choice source of entertainment.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:My dream GW store: 10 plus tables, 80% of the product range for sale in store INCLUDING forge world. Late hours (my local store is open untill 11pm Friday and Saturday) when does your local GW store close 8pm, 9pm?

Most week days my "local" GW store opens around 3:00pm and closes at 8:00pm. Hardly worth the effort to try and get down there during the week. They moved to a tiny store front that is barely visible from the street from a decent sized mall with regular mall type hours and space for a dozen tables. I remember when they moved to the mall store they recently moved out of, big sale. 20% off everything for a grand opening of the new location in the same mall. The store was packed with people. New move: Severely cut hours. Severely cut gaming and hobby space. Severely cut display space. Zero celebration. :( They never really even announced that the hours were completely gutted anywhere either, so I found out that the store didn't open until 3:00 the first time I went down around 12:30 to the new location. Didn't exactly have 2.5 hours to sit around waiting for the store to open. Haven't been back since and just don't feel the need to go to a GW store that is a long distance away to pay full retail price when I can give the money to the guy who runs my FLGS and who is a personal friend to me. A long, long time ago when I was first getting into citadel minis I loved going to the stores because they had EVERYTHING in the store. If they made a figure of it you should have been able to find it on the racks somewhere. Now some lines you can't find anything for in actual GW stores anymore. When I was finishing my Witchhunters army and building up a sisters of battle contingent for it, half of the stuff wasn't on the shelf in the store and of course they would say "Oh we can order it for you," but if I am going to pay to order everything at retail I'll order through the website direct, order over the free shipping level and have it show up on my own front porch instead of having to drive 25 miles one way back to the store to get them.

Skriker

KplKeegan wrote:

Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

There is no need to be upset.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

Auxellion wrote:ITT: Rustled Jimmies

Well it irritates me to no end when someone miss-reads a post and tries shoving his moral supremecy in my face like I'm a wretch.

There is no need to be upset.

Spoiler:

That picture is strangely soothing...

All this talk about tiny GW stores reminds me of the time I was in London. Don't know if they have more than one store but the one I found must have been the tiniest store I ever been in, and this was in London of all places.
The store was so tiny and even had a low ceiling (was about to hit my head some times) so they had about the basic stuff for the more popular armies.
Fought it really strange that the store in London was such a tiny and it was even quite hidden. I walked above it in my first try finding it and only found it since I decided to take a break in my search at the cafe right across

salix_fatuus wrote:All this talk about tiny GW stores reminds me of the time I was in London. Don't know if they have more than one store but the one I found must have been the tiniest store I ever been in, and this was in London of all places.
The store was so tiny and even had a low ceiling (was about to hit my head some times) so they had about the basic stuff for the more popular armies.
Fought it really strange that the store in London was such a tiny and it was even quite hidden. I walked above it in my first try finding it and only found it since I decided to take a break in my search at the cafe right across

Was that the Covent Garden store? London has several stores, including one on Oxford Street.

LunaHound wrote:You mentioning Australian dollars made me curious and I must check it out...

they have to pay $1158, that is $1188 USD

I know, it's ridiculous. I've dropped ~AUD$300 into the hobby already, and I have less than 500 points of miniatures from two armies (including SM!) to show for it.
The high price is mostly due to import/export shennanigans, and is the same reason why we need to pay twice as much for videogames as the UK.

I have to say - when I went into an UK GW store last December, the guy behind the counter was a hell of a lot friendlier than you get in Australia. While I was looking over SM HS, he came up and asked if there was anything he could do to help, in a completely non-patronising manner. He did seem a bit insistient in steering me towards the expensive products and pay-to-play in-house competitions, but I suppose that's just policy. As a salesperson on the shop floor, he was much better than those down under.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
There is no need to be upset.

Spoiler:

That picture is strangely soothing...

Yes.. yes it is..

thanks for posting it !

spacewolf407 wrote:I happen to live 15 mins away from the only GW in Florida, Orlando to be specific. Them opening last year was actually the reason I came back to the hobby after 15 years. Awesome manager, there are always games going on, and the shelves are always stocked.

+1 to this! I go to the same shop and they are always packed with stock, I think the guy's name is Clay and he's a great dude. He says they are really raking in the money at that location!

As much as I understand some of it may be necessary, mine's been going downhill. They used to have a whole two rooms, one which was stock and had three tables in it, the other was filled with tables. Now we only have the first room, and recently its been knocked down to two tables (In fact it may only be one now). Plus seeing as there are so few tables (and apparently SO many people want to play, which is a lie, barely anyone uses them) games have to be under 1000 points and can't last more than about 90 minutes. That's not enough points or time for a really decent game for me.

The GW employee just letf his store to become a train driver. I don't know as I havent been there since, but the new guy might be the person who accidently took £21 worth of my models!

kshaw2000 wrote:The GW employee just letf his store to become a train driver. I don't know as I havent been there since, but the new guy might be the person who accidently took £21 worth of my models!

A train driver? And the employee steals models? I feel sorry for your store.

Joey wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Cost of a night out:£30-£40. Cost of a box of troops+paints:~£30. Guess which will last longer?

Which is totally subjective. Hanging out with possibly influential people could have a larger and more lasting impact ( with your connection, maturity growth, perspective ) than a box of plastic soldiers.

What? You mean when people go to clubs and get so drunk they can't speak, they're making connections and improving their lives?
That's bs.
A night out entertains you for an evening, a box of 40k entertains you for a week, maybe more maybe less, depends how much spare time you have.

Astartes before parties!

A train driver?

In the UK, train drivers earn quite good money, much more than (say) a GW store manager would. Granted it's not akin to becoming Queen's Counsel or a GP but it's hardly a poor career move.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

A train driver?

In the UK, train drivers earn quite good money, much more than (say) a GW store manager would. Granted it's not akin to becoming Queen's Counsel or a GP but it's hardly a poor career move.

To be honest, if I was working in a store with that kind of stuff going down, I'd take any job, really. Props to that man for finding ANY kind of alternative, in this economy.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:

A train driver?

In the UK, train drivers earn quite good money, much more than (say) a GW store manager would. Granted it's not akin to becoming Queen's Counsel or a GP but it's hardly a poor career move.

Plus they get to see all those exotic, faraway places such as Slough or Aldershot. Places the rest of us can only dream about visiting...

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Plus they get to see all those exotic, faraway places such as Slough or Aldershot. Places the rest of us can only dream about visiting...

Says the guy from Cloudsdale...

On topic, The GW near me is alright, but £10 to get there and back isn;t too good. The local Indies are better because I don;t have to pay a massive amount to get there.

The GW Portsmouth throws the best Apoc games though.

I read an article somewhere about how GW's shop-related cost-cutting is inspiring all sorts of other retailers to change their model. They have a very active programme (in the UK certainly) of moving to smaller, cheaper units and reducing both hours and staff. The one-man shop model is the one that other retailers are really liking from what I hear. It is actually quite cheap to run: one guy on maybe £16k, a small, cheap (relatively as retail space is expensive) store unit and overheads. This is one of the main ways thay are rebalancing their operations to return to strong profitability. Never forget that they are a ruthless capitalist enterprise, run by accountants and have not been gamer-run since about 1991 or so when Ansell sold out to retire to the Canary Islands. It's all about cost and margins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further to that last post - the cost is further reduced when you consider that GW staff presumably spend a fair percentage of their take-home on GW products. So a manager on £16K will be kicking back maybe £50 a month minimum to GW. In the UK they even tried offering people the chance to volunteer to work in certain GW shops for a couple of hours on a saturday afternoon - unpaid! The reward was access to the staff discount. So GW internships now.

Isengard wrote:I read an article somewhere about how GW's shop-related cost-cutting is inspiring all sorts of other retailers to change their model. They have a very active programme (in the UK certainly) of moving to smaller, cheaper units and reducing both hours and staff. The one-man shop model is the one that other retailers are really liking from what I hear. It is actually quite cheap to run: one guy on maybe £16k, a small, cheap (relatively as retail space is expensive) store unit and overheads. This is one of the main ways thay are rebalancing their operations to return to strong profitability. Never forget that they are a ruthless capitalist enterprise, run by accountants and have not been gamer-run since about 1991 or so when Ansell sold out to retire to the Canary Islands. It's all about cost and margins.

This. For better or for worse (often both at the same time.) this world runs on money. Short term gains beat out long term goals. Who knows? Maybe they'll rethink their business model when they realize they're selling to people, not numbers, and those people are getting pissed off and not buying anymore? I'd hate to see it come to that, but...

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Isengard wrote:I read an article somewhere about how GW's shop-related cost-cutting is inspiring all sorts of other retailers to change their model. They have a very active programme (in the UK certainly) of moving to smaller, cheaper units and reducing both hours and staff. The one-man shop model is the one that other retailers are really liking from what I hear. It is actually quite cheap to run: one guy on maybe £16k, a small, cheap (relatively as retail space is expensive) store unit and overheads. This is one of the main ways thay are rebalancing their operations to return to strong profitability. Never forget that they are a ruthless capitalist enterprise, run by accountants and have not been gamer-run since about 1991 or so when Ansell sold out to retire to the Canary Islands. It's all about cost and margins.

This. For better or for worse (often both at the same time.) this world runs on money. Short term gains beat out long term goals. Who knows? Maybe they'll rethink their business model when they realize they're selling to people, not numbers, and those people are getting pissed off and not buying anymore? I'd hate to see it come to that, but...

I am not a number I am a free man!

Update on my store: Things may be looking up, we got a new manager who is completely new to this game (big wargamer though) and seems really open to change. We convinced them to make it 4 playable tables and move the computer that they had with our urban table for some reason. Also, he is looking to run events...so I guess GW isn't going to ruin this hobby completely..yet.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Isengard wrote:I read an article somewhere about how GW's shop-related cost-cutting is inspiring all sorts of other retailers to change their model. They have a very active programme (in the UK certainly) of moving to smaller, cheaper units and reducing both hours and staff. The one-man shop model is the one that other retailers are really liking from what I hear. It is actually quite cheap to run: one guy on maybe £16k, a small, cheap (relatively as retail space is expensive) store unit and overheads. This is one of the main ways thay are rebalancing their operations to return to strong profitability. Never forget that they are a ruthless capitalist enterprise, run by accountants and have not been gamer-run since about 1991 or so when Ansell sold out to retire to the Canary Islands. It's all about cost and margins.

This. For better or for worse (often both at the same time.) this world runs on money. Short term gains beat out long term goals. Who knows? Maybe they'll rethink their business model when they realize they're selling to people, not numbers, and those people are getting pissed off and not buying anymore? I'd hate to see it come to that, but...

I am not a number I am a free man!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!