So, this weekend, I finally got around to reading the space marines codex, all 145 pages of it (which for me is quite a feat). I'm glad that I did, because the fluff is fantastic. Trying to understand the imperium without reading this codex is sort of like trying to understand the american civil war by watching movies, and neglecting to watch gods and generals - not required, but you definitely miss something without it. Even their talk of ultramarines being the "real" marines was justified enough so as to be less onerous as I've heard others complain.

But I didn't post this in the tactics forum to talk about the fluff. I actually had some questions now that I've actually seen the stats and figures in the flesh. Everything else I knew about space marines was from innumerable bits and pieces over the years, so some things struck me as odd. For example...

- Drop pods! They only cost as much as a rhino!? Why does anybody even bother playing anything else? I'm sure I'm not the first person to lay hands on the space marines codex and get overly exuberant about this particular space marine unit, and if I'm just another SM noob in the line, you'll have to excuse me, but these things seem to be the greatest invention since the pairing of corned beef and hash. They do everything you'd ever realistically want a transport to do, better than basically any other transport, and for HOW few points? I think I'm going to hyperventilate here...

- So, I knew about combat tactics before, and obviously knew about ATSKNF, but it wasn't until I saw both of them right next to each other in the codex that it clicked for me just how strong these abilities are. It makes the way too many points you spend for calgar seem almost worth it. Furthermore, it makes anything that disrupts this beautiful pairing absolutely insane. With the possible exception of khan (and the very remotely possible exception of shrike), I can't see why taking chapter tactics would be worth taking. Stubborn is great, but losing the above pair just to get a 1/3rd boost in killing power with some of your weapons doesn't seem like a good deal to me, as you're giving up so many options in the pursuit of pigeonholing your firepower. Not to say I wouldn't mind better bolters or twin-linked meltaguns, but am I the only person who sees the cost of these as too high? And, of course taking a chaplain and replacing these abilities with fearless seems flat crazy, am I wrong?

- People are quick to point out just how awesome rending psycannons are, and how nifty riflemen dreads are, but why no love for the assault cannon? It does everything a psycannon does (basically), but with an extra shot. Furthermore, it feels like it's the best weapon in the codex for the spirit of space marines. It can handle anything, and handle it well. 150 points for an assault cannon dread in a pod seems like a steal, and for 160 points you get that with a twin-linked autocannon. You basically land anywhere you want and pump the side of some vehicle full of rending and S7 hot lead, with the ability to force enough firepower to select juicier backfield targets to boot.

- They say that your "average" space marine company is 6x tac squads, 2x devs, and 2x assault marines. It immediately struck me that what they blatantly tell you to take in the fluff, actually seems like a really winning setup for space marines. I'd probably dump the assault marines (which I can't quite wrap my head around. On the one hand, they seem awesome, being only slightly more expensive than tac squads, but being much better in close combat, and being able to basically guarantee the charge, while on the other hand, the utter lack of upgrades seems very strange), and replace them with something else fast (like DS termies or something), but it seems to play up the SM codex's strengths, especially to new players with poor list-building skills. I haven't seen a lot of SM lists (but I know the roughly 1 netlist anti-tournament razorzpam list), but am I right in that they look more or less kind of sort of like this? Maybe it's just my guard tendency to drool on troops choices, but it seems like a mostly (or at least heavily) tac squad army would be a good idea.

- Scout bikes. 100 points for outflanking 6 BS4 S6 attacks that shoot out to 36"? Why have I never seen these before?

- I've heard people complain about devastators because "they're not longfangs". Only 150 points for 4 BS4 missile launcher shots beats the pants off its equivalent in guard (which is rather known as a shooty army), and the idea of said number of points for 4 BS4 multimeltas is highly intriguing, especially given that you can combat squad them (and take them in a drop pod! Sure, no shooting the first turn, but still...) What's the deal here?

- Tigurius is a BEAST. I never thought I'd come across anything that was a better HQ unit than eldrad, but I think I may have found it. Yeah, he's really expensive, but the HUGE number of options that you have to do basically anything, not only with himself, but other squads seems just crazy, am I right? It seems like he's way too good of a support unit to pass up, if you've got the points to be able to take him. I mean, the regular librarian also looks good, but by the time you make him an epistolary or give him a storm shield, he's starting to vaguely approach that point where it's a much better value to just bite the bullet and take the character.

- Why would you ever take honor guard? Expensive unit with no invul save and only I4 (not to mention getting drawn in against ICs) means that you're not going to be able to stand up to a big bag of real close combat squads. It's especially curious when you compare them to the command squad, which has the ability to mix it up with a couple of storm shields and a couple of lightning claws or combi-weapons, and a thunder hammer to make a mixed squad that's actually good at a variety of things for the same price. It struck me that the relative crappiness of the honor guard would actually prevent me from taking a chapter master, unless I was just going to take one alone.

Anyways, it was a real pleasure to finally get around to reading a document I should have read years ago. Thanks in advance for helping me understand the codex better. I'm sure there are a lot of veteran SM players who appreciate a fresh set of eyes appreciating the quality of their long-favorite army.

Drop pods are quite good I'd say. The fact that they are AV 12 also makes them kind of nice. The only problem is the reliability and reserve rolls might make for the other half the pods you have. ALso just 2 pods will not work that well since one guy in the enemy zone at turn one usually means a suicide run

Ironclads are also sometimes a bit underrated. The armor on that thing just means bad ass tar pit unit. Alot of things will have a hard time getting through that thing without rending or some sort of power fist.

Bikes have been put to good effect before. They can get pretty pricy which limits their numbers. Also losing that BS4 really hurts.

Combat tactics has some very interesting play mechanics and I agree it is under used. Most people tend to like the other options given. Frankly I think the BA benefit more from a chaplin than the vanilla marines. Rerolls to hit works better with lightning claws terminators I think. Calgar really is just too expensive I think. you almost always take the terminator upgrade so your HQ is like 265 points!. Most times I can pass morale already with Ld 9 so it's not worth that much. Getting run down in close combat just means no-retreat saves anyway so I don't see how it really helps free up enemy assault units for shooting next turn.

Tiberius is just too many points I think for his survivability. Just 2 wounds and no invulv save. 3 psy powers is also kind of overkill as you really risk killing yourself with perils. Not all of the powers are going to be worth it either. I've yet to find a good use for teleporting around and the shooting all have different ranges which make them kind of hard to use on the same target. Zone of banishment works very well though. Usually a regular librarian will get what you need.


Honor guard and command squad I kind of agree with you that I don't really ever see them used. The sternguard however is where I think the action is at. All those lovely bolters really make a nice combo.

Psycannons and Assault Cannons have the same number of shots in heavy mode. The Psycannon just has an Assault Mode and is Str7 instead of 6.

Devestators arn't worth it onlys because there are cheaper ways to get the firepower they can get. For 30 additional points over the 4 missile squad I can get 2 Typhoon Speeders. I gain extreme mobility and 2 heavy bolters for that extra 30 points.

The first thing you should know about the basic SM codex is the sheer numbet of diffrent army types you can feild.

for example.

-All biker army
-Master of the forge /w 6 dreads
-Deepstrikeing tactical drop pod army
-DSing Terminator army
-Landraider Assault terminator force
-Tactial Rhino/razorback army
-Ect.
(some arey types are better than others. Motf w/ 6 dreds is not very effective but it sure is fun)

bascly, when someone says you are fighting "space marines" you can never be 100% sure what army your fighting.

- drop pods are really fun, i often take at least one just to screw with my enemy. I kit a tac squad inside with a melta gun, land right behind your enemies biggest tank, and pop it first turn. The death wind upgrade may seem rather expensive, but in certain situations it could be worth it. dropping danger close to guard foot army, the pod may be ignored in favor of shooting at the tac squad or shooting heavy weapons at fast approaching vehicles. then next turn a S5 large blast is dealing lots of wounds to the poor guardsmen.


-overlooked by a lot of people i have talked to is the synergy you get from a camocloak scout squad with a thunder fire canon. Techmarine gives ruins +1 cover, scouts now have a 2+ cover save. and the TFC gets a 3+ save. (not to mention how deadly the TFC is against hordes (and at 100pts its a steal!))

-also overlooked for the devestators is the signum ( i have met long term SM players that have never heard of this thing!)
(this gets used insted of the sarge shooting)

3 Ml devs at bs4
1 Lascannon at bs6!
( a LC in a dev squad gets expensive at 35pts( but bs6 makes it worth it))

But at only 10pts in a tactical squad, why would you not take one of the best anti tank weapons in the game!?

-Assault marines are good when you want your army to be focused around mobility (i use mine to support my rhinos speeding up the field, and they assault right after the tac squads rapid fires into a unit)




-Adsknf is actualy vary scary, severaly times i have had a sarget be the only remaning guy in the squad that routes, have him auto-rally, and run back into the fight

-My unit that always gets its job done is a squad of lightning claw terminators inside of a crusader. thay absouloutaly annilate large squads, on more than one occation i have had a squad of 7(+ chaplain) assault a 30boy ork squad and wipe them. (28 power attacks that reroll to hit and wound +fearless wounds if the orks are still fearless)
Fearless from the chaplain never really affects my A terms because its only a 9 wound squad, and if i take enough wounds for fearless to matter, they are dead anyways.

Ailaros wrote:
- Drop pods! They only cost as much as a rhino!? Why does anybody even bother playing anything else? I'm sure I'm not the first person to lay hands on the space marines codex and get overly exuberant about this particular space marine unit, and if I'm just another SM noob in the line, you'll have to excuse me, but these things seem to be the greatest invention since the pairing of corned beef and hash. They do everything you'd ever realistically want a transport to do, better than basically any other transport, and for HOW few points? I think I'm going to hyperventilate here...

While these are amazing (my crimson fists are a DP army. Razorbacks also get taken a lot for the extra fire power. If you want to use the heavy weapon from a tac squad you can't combat squad half of it into the pod and the other half on the table. Enter the razorback where you toss the special weapon and sgt to get closer while the heavy weapon deploys in cover. As for BT...pass on these since we don't have the same drop pod assault. BA don't really need pods if you are running a DoA list but a rhino rush is based on the fast aspect of the vehicle and they cost less if assault marines don't have packs.

Ailaros wrote:
- So, I knew about combat tactics before, and obviously knew about ATSKNF, but it wasn't until I saw both of them right next to each other in the codex that it clicked for me just how strong these abilities are. It makes the way too many points you spend for calgar seem almost worth it. Furthermore, it makes anything that disrupts this beautiful pairing absolutely insane. With the possible exception of khan (and the very remotely possible exception of shrike), I can't see why taking chapter tactics would be worth taking. Stubborn is great, but losing the above pair just to get a 1/3rd boost in killing power with some of your weapons doesn't seem like a good deal to me, as you're giving up so many options in the pursuit of pigeonholing your firepower. Not to say I wouldn't mind better bolters or twin-linked meltaguns, but am I the only person who sees the cost of these as too high? And, of course taking a chaplain and replacing these abilities with fearless seems flat crazy, am I wrong?

Actually it is nice but being able to take sterguard as scoring is really nice and lets me take veterans as the backbone of an army. Otherwise yes I do run just normal combat tactics. While twin-linking flamers and meltas is nice I don't use multi-meltas that much and if I want to run hammernaters I will play BT.

Ailaros wrote:
- People are quick to point out just how awesome rending psycannons are, and how nifty riflemen dreads are, but why no love for the assault cannon? It does everything a psycannon does (basically), but with an extra shot. Furthermore, it feels like it's the best weapon in the codex for the spirit of space marines. It can handle anything, and handle it well. 150 points for an assault cannon dread in a pod seems like a steal, and for 160 points you get that with a twin-linked autocannon. You basically land anywhere you want and pump the side of some vehicle full of rending and S7 hot lead, with the ability to force enough firepower to select juicier backfield targets to boot.

As grey templar said psycannons in heavy mode (always on vehicles) is better than normall assault cannons due to being the same number of shots but higher strength. My BT take the assault cannon since it's free but the normal marines I go with the extra range of the autocannons. Plus being twin-linked is really nice.

Ailaros wrote:
- They say that your "average" space marine company is 6x tac squads, 2x devs, and 2x assault marines. It immediately struck me that what they blatantly tell you to take in the fluff, actually seems like a really winning setup for space marines. I'd probably dump the assault marines (which I can't quite wrap my head around. On the one hand, they seem awesome, being only slightly more expensive than tac squads, but being much better in close combat, and being able to basically guarantee the charge, while on the other hand, the utter lack of upgrades seems very strange), and replace them with something else fast (like DS termies or something), but it seems to play up the SM codex's strengths, especially to new players with poor list-building skills. I haven't seen a lot of SM lists (but I know the roughly 1 netlist anti-tournament razorzpam list), but am I right in that they look more or less kind of sort of like this? Maybe it's just my guard tendency to drool on troops choices, but it seems like a mostly (or at least heavily) tac squad army would be a good idea.

The biggest problem assault have is that they are vulnerable to all the anti-infantry fire until they make it to CC. Then they are marines with a couple of extra attacks. Any dedicated CC unit such as Incubi, Death Co, etc will eat them up. Now I do have an 1850 list where I run a full company for grins. In C:SM though you don't really need 6 troops since you can combat squad and get 6 troops with 3 slots full.

Ailaros wrote:
- Scout bikes. 100 points for outflanking 6 BS4 S6 attacks that shoot out to 36"? Why have I never seen these before?

Speeders, mainly I would presume. Bikes are also open for the infantry killing.

Ailaros wrote:
- I've heard people complain about devastators because "they're not longfangs". Only 150 points for 4 BS4 missile launcher shots beats the pants off its equivalent in guard (which is rather known as a shooty army), and the idea of said number of points for 4 BS4 multimeltas is highly intriguing, especially given that you can combat squad them (and take them in a drop pod! Sure, no shooting the first turn, but still...) What's the deal here?

A) Never take them in a pod. No shooting necessarily the first turn or the turn they come in. Plus you've wasted points on marines that are worthless. You cannot bring in all the pods turn one, just half. The others wait in reserve meaning you risk coming in piecemeal. The issue with MLs in devs is they are free in tac squads that can also combat squad but take objectives. Go back and look at the cost of a lascannon in a dev squad then the cost in the tac squad. Yeouch!

Ailaros wrote:
- Tigurius is a BEAST. I never thought I'd come across anything that was a better HQ unit than eldrad, but I think I may have found it. Yeah, he's really expensive, but the HUGE number of options that you have to do basically anything, not only with himself, but other squads seems just crazy, am I right? It seems like he's way too good of a support unit to pass up, if you've got the points to be able to take him. I mean, the regular librarian also looks good, but by the time you make him an epistolary or give him a storm shield, he's starting to vaguely approach that point where it's a much better value to just bite the bullet and take the character.

He is way way to expensive. Now yes he does have some insane options but an epistolary termi w/ SS has a better armor and invul. The invul can be huge since on a perils you have to make the invul twice. Plus null zone and either avenger or smite is normally all you need.

Ailaros wrote:
- Why would you ever take honor guard? Expensive unit with no invul save and only I4 (not to mention getting drawn in against ICs) means that you're not going to be able to stand up to a big bag of real close combat squads. It's especially curious when you compare them to the command squad, which has the ability to mix it up with a couple of storm shields and a couple of lightning claws or combi-weapons, and a thunder hammer to make a mixed squad that's actually good at a variety of things for the same price. It struck me that the relative crappiness of the honor guard would actually prevent me from taking a chapter master, unless I was just going to take one alone.

You choose where they assault. Obviously you don't go for the enemy HQ. By trucking them around you can assault what you want. basically I get relic blades and leave the rest alone. Now they are still very expensive but I run them for fun anyway. I would definetly take them over a command squad though. The banner alone is nasty. Even then you just run a small squad.

-Drop pods give you mobility in the turn you arrive, but zero mobility after that. They have their uses, but since endgame mobility is more important in 5th edition, most people who use them find they don't produce wins as consistently as rhinos. Also as immobile, open-topped vehicles they are easy KPs for anything with meltabombs or a PF.

-Vulkan is the most commonly-taken chapter tactics character. With a melta-heavy army (especially those speeders and dreads) and at least one unit of TH/SS terminators (they can even kill fast vehicles in assault) he's worth it.

-Assault cannons are only str6 and short range. Everything that can take an assault cannon can instead take a lascannon and/or multimelta, so those two choices are just better, since marines have plenty of troop killing power everywhere else in the army.

-Since the release of GK, assault marines are nerfed since they can't effectively either shoot up GK basic units or effectively assault them (because of the power weapons). They were pretty good before the GK codex.

-Scout bikes cost about 100 points for a tiny sacrificial unit of 3 with the necessary gear, die to heavy bolters with their 4+ save, and compete with speeders for fast slots.

-Like Long Fangs, devs suffer from the fact that they can't move & shoot. Long fangs are so cheap that it hardly matters for them, but devs also don't have the aggressive close-in units that SW have to synergize with them.

-I've used Tigurius in 2500 point games, but without an invul save (unless he manages to get Force Dome off) he's just too vulnerable for the cost as a primary HQ, and too expensive for a secondary HQ. When you can get a TDA librarian with a storm shield for a little over half the cost, there's not much value there.

-You are reading honor guard correctly.

Drop Pods
I've played against some very good drop pod players, and they give a number of advantages.
* You can use an odd number of drop pods to ensure you get 2-3 on the first turn
* Your later turn drop pods can be used to objective contest-grab
* Drop pods don't worry about mishaps when they land on the table -- you can drop close as you like to the enemy
* Drop pods give infantry free cover
* AV 12 is much harder to crack than AV11 rhinos.
* Drop pods can block enemy movement as they have a very large footprint. They also can be used to block lines of fire
* C:SM drop pods have a capacity of 12 (opposed to SW, which have a capacity of 10)
What drop pods don't give is mobility. Once you place your squad down, that's where they are going to be having an area of influence for the rest of the game. If you drop poorly, you can easily lose the squad.

Combat Tactics and Calgar
This is a very undervalued ability. I've discussed combat tactics in the past. Calgar does not stand toe to toe with another 250 point character. Draigo or Abbadon will take his lunch money every day of the week. If you compare him to a 200 point character hes more in line.
That means your paying 50 points for the ability for your army to auto-pass any morale test -- a decent price IMHO for what that gives, especially in 2,000+ games. This is better than fearless.
* You can ignore pinning
* You can ignore psyker battle squads
* You never take fearless wounds when you lose assault -- even if you lose it by 8. You just pass the test.

Assault Cannons
Assault cannons are great. I've talked about how awesome they are for years now, and people always told me 'yea, but their 24" range'. I guess the number of GK players has shown that a 24" range can be enough. C:SM just don't have enough platforms to put the AC on. You have land raiders, dreads, and razorbacks. BA also have baal predators to put them on -- and if your going to use AC spam, thats how I would do it.

TAC Squads
I would not go with 6 TAC squads. While TAC squads are not horrible (they have a decent stat line compared to orks, for example) they fall short of every other MEQ codex since C:SM came out. SW, BA, and GK have better TAC squad options. The best thing about TAC squads is they are hard to shift at range with 3+ armor saves, but in assault they crumble.

Why would you ever take honor guard?
Because for 5 more points a model, you can take TH/SS termies. TH/SS termies will crush honor guard every day of the week -- and twice on sundays.

Tigurius is a BEAST
IMHO Tigurius' best ability is to manipulate reserve rolls. In large games, combined with Khan, you can have 75% of your army outflank on turn 2. That's very powerful, and intimidating. As mentioned, his biggest weakness if that he's extremely fragile.

Devastators
If your going with an all-foot army, I can see you wanting to emulate long fangs and pay more points to not have them be able to split fire and have them weaker in assault. The biggest advantage of devastators over long fangs is they can take bullet catchers for ablative wounds. Once long fangs start taking causalities, they are losing heavy weapons. Devastators can have up to 6 wounds done before they start losing offensive capability.

Most people (myself included) look to the predators, vindicators, or land raiders to help with armor saturation. For 15 more points than a full 10 man devastator squad, I can bring a LR redeemer. I can toss a MM and AC on that, and have an AV 14 out there that can move 12" and fire 1 weapon or 6" and fire both. Now that you see how awesome the AC is, do you see why I like the redeemer? I've fielded them empty before as a MM/AC platform and to give mobile cover for my other models.

What else?
Land speeder storm tactics are actually not half bad. This is a cheaper alternative than having a drop pod full of TAC squads to grab objectives.

You are broadly correct with everything. Combat tactics is really important.

tigurius is weak as everyone is saying, instant killed too easily, then too many points. He is a fun, tactical choice.

There are cooler things than tactical marines. tactical marines are not too bad, but you can bring more killy things to the table.

Scout bikers are criminally underused. Landspeeders are awesome and the bikers may not fit well if every list.

Everyone seems to agree on this thread

Here's a thought: Codex Grey Knights can get Assault Cannons with Psybolt Ammo on their Razorbacks and get 4 Heavy Str 7 Rending shots on a transport.

labmouse42 wrote:Combat Tactics and Calgar
This is a very undervalued ability. I've discussed combat tactics in the past. Calgar does not stand toe to toe with another 250 point character. Mephiston or Abbadon will take his lunch money every day of the week. If you compare him to a 200 point character hes more in line.
That means your paying 50 points for the ability for your army to auto-pass any morale test -- a decent price IMHO for what that gives, especially in 2,000+ games. This is better than fearless.
* You can ignore pinning
* You can ignore psyker battle squads
* You never take fearless wounds when you lose assault -- even if you lose it by 8. You just pass the test.

Regarding Calgar versus Mephiston, it's actually a much closer fight then you might expect. While vampire Jesus has a far better stat-line, he does not have an invulnerable save, which gives Calgar a slight edge in wound generation.

Mephiston:
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.67% chance to hit (increase to 88.89% with transfixing gaze),
S 6 vs T 4 = 83.33% chance to wound (increase to 97.22% with transfixing gaze),
Calgar has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50.00% chance to get through, and
Calgar is LD 10 = 41.67% chance to avoid transfixing gaze.
None of Mephiston's psychic powers are useful in this encounter, so he won't use any.

66.67% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 41.67% × 5 attacks = 0.58, plus
88.89% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 58.33% × 5 attacks = 1.26 equals ~1.84 unsaved wounds per turn.

Calgar has 4 wounds, so 4 ÷ 1.84 = 2.18 rounds for Mephiston to carve down Calgar.

Calgar:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
S 8 vs T 6 = 83.33% chance to wound (increase to 97.22% with Titanic Might), and
Mephiston has no invulnerable save = 100.00% chance to get through.

50.00% × 97.22% × 100.00% × 5 attacks = ~2.43 unsaved wounds per turn.

Mephiston has a mighty 5 wounds, so 5 ÷ 2.43 = 2.06 rounds for Calgar to punch Mephiston's face in.

Statistically speaking, Mephiston will stagger out of that fight in the top of round three with one wound left, but the margin for Calgar to finish the job in just two rounds is definitely present. I would argue that Calgar is right where he should be in a fist-fight at the 250-point character level. The fact you get all his other goodies as well is simply icing on the cake.

Moving on to other matters, I will echo everyone else in saying Tigurius is a trap. No invulnerable makes him incredibly easy to pick off, and the vast majority of his powers are PSAs or unusable in assault, which is where a smart opponent will put him as soon as possible. A terminator librarian with a storm shield (epistolary upgrade optional) is a much better choice.

Scout bikers can be interesting choices, but remember that like all scouts, they're only BS 3, which hurts their reliability enough that most people skip them in favor of BS 4 biker marines or speeders. They can be cheap locator beacon delivery systems, and cluster mines can occasionally maul an unsuspecting unit badly enough to make taking them worthwhile. Just as often, however, they fail to do anything at all, so most people won't bet the farm on that unit.

That's and excellent analysis of Mephiston vs Calgar. I will update the post to mention Draigo or Abbadon.
Is there a reason you also did not do a comparison with Abbadon?

@ drop pods - The reason I think I got so excited about them is that they're the same cost as a rhino, but I couldn't think of any situation where I'd rather have a rhino instead. A razorback, sure, but if you're not doing a gunline army, then I probably wouldn't bother.

Even without the ability to guarantee everybody showing up at the same time, it's hardly piecemeal. When you do force concentration with drop pods, it seems like you do force CONCENTRATION. Even if only half your army shows up, it's still going to have local superiority wherever it does show up at. Given that most everything else arrives the next turn, and, once again, you can pick the weakest spot to attack, this doesn't seem like much of a loss.

Really, the only thing a rhino can do is to put guys back in them and drive off, but I don't really see the benefit to this. On the one hand, is a rhino really going to survive long enough to bring a squad somewhere, wait for it to do damage, and then pick it back up, and then still drive somewhere? On an AV11 vehicle?

On the other hand, what's the point of being able to pick something up and go somewhere, if you've already just dropped there in the first place? The idea of late-game mobility doesn't make sense here, because if I already dropped on my opponent's objective(s), then I'm already where I need to be late game, it's just I got there much earlier.

It strikes me that the difference between drop pods and rhinos is that the former brings marines to where they need to be right away and lets them fight there all game with a free round of shooting without getting shot at. Rhinos seem like something that your opponent blows off the table with autocannons turn 1 and makes your space marines walk. If I wanted a foot horde SM list, I'd take a foot horde SM list, and wouldn't even bother with the rhinos.

@ assault cannons - these still seem to be the best upgrade here. Autocannons don't hold a candle because while they have a longer range (which isn't really SO much of a deal, as you can only mount assault cannons on units which can get places in a hurry), the extra shots makes it a credible anti-light infantry weapon and the rending+extra shots means it can handle heavier infantry and MCs, and the rending means it can handle heavier vehicles in a way that the autocannon never could. The lascannon is a more plausible alternative, but in that case I think I'd just keep the free multimelta on a dread, or whatever.

@ devastators - It really does seem mostly jealousy. Looking just within the codex, devastators seem to have a fine role at a reasonable price. I could care less what units space wolves get.

Interesting comment about the speeder, though. That and the idea of taking a land raider instead. More expensive for one fewer gun, but comes with an assault ramp. Hmm. I don't see what the preds are doing better than devs, though. It seems with the exception of speeders (who do it a little better, but at greater cost), there doesn't really seem to be an alternative.

For 115 points apiece, you can get 2x 5-man space marine squads with 2x multimeltas apiece (one with a signum). I can't think of another codex that can do anything even vaguely similar.

@ combat tactics. Yes, regular marines will fold in close combat to CC monsters, but with combat tactics, that's the POINT. The scary thing gets in CC, you fall back, and then you regroup and shoot it again (with the help of everything nearby). The #1 most awful thing for a close combat squad is to be stuck out in the open at the mercy of your opponent's guns - especially at short range. Combat tactics makes this happen.

Without combat tactics, SM are stuck in close combats that they would rather back up from and shoot. Stubborn marines against stubborn power blobs means a lot of dead marines. CT SM against stubborn blobs means that in any turn that they kill more than you do, you can just back up and unload on the blob (now very much likely not in cover) with bolters. See ya later blob.

I even really like melta weapons, but I'm not sure if it's worth it to take vulkan if it dooms all those pretty little melta and multimeltas to being stuck in close combat.

@ Tigurious - but the COMBOS! Big scary thing nearby? smite+might+null zone. A tank you need killed over there? gate+curse+vortex. Need to hold somewhere at all costs? avenger+dome+quickening. The most impressive thing is that it's a single model that could do ANYTHING. You're not stuck putting him into a single role. He seems like the paragon of violent flexibility.

It seems like the only thing he's missing is eternal warrior, which means that I suppose you'd have to be somewhat careful of what you throw him at (although with the ability to throw down WS5 I10 force weapon attacks with an invul save, I even question that), and obviously it's going to be rough against, say, grey knights, but still, it seems like people who have a good sense of imagination would get a lot out of this guy.

So, a couple of other things.

- People keep talking up speeders, but I don't get it. Yeah, you have the ability to deepstrike on something with a multimelta (or whatever), that's fine, but outside of this role it's just an AV10 vehicle. Doesn't seem durable enough to make much of an impact after its initial splash. You hardly ever see eldar players carrying around a bunch of vypers and sentinels in more serious guard lists are practically non-existant for this very reason.

- I did a double take on sicarius. I don't even care about his beefy close combattedness (though it seems rather beefy), he looks like a good buy for just his three special rules. Plus, he's somewhat beefy in close combat.

- on a similar note, no love for antaro? His guard equivalent (Pask) isn't really all that worth taking, but a land raider that can stone cold ignore shaken and stunned results seems pretty good. I guess he does have that obnoxious rule that makes him worth an extra kill point. Perhaps if he could get in another vehicle and try again he'd be worth it...

- What's the deal with shooty termies? On the one hand, I look at them and see for the a little more than price of 10-properly kitted tac marines in a drop pod, you get 5 termies. You lose half your bolter shots at close range, for the same durability against small arms, and you can't take a special weapon (but you can take either cyclone or assault cannon for heavy), and everyone gets a 5++, and everyone gets a power fist for free.

On the one hand, it seems like they're a harder, better armed, boiled-down version of a tac squad. On the other, it looks like they're just a boiled down tac squad - a non scoring troops choice in the elite slot. I've played against shooty termies before and was really unimpressed, but looking at their codex entry, I feel like I should be, at least somewhat. What am I missing?

labmouse42 wrote:That's and excellent analysis of Mephiston vs Calgar. I will update the post to mention Draigo or Abbadon.
Is there a reason you also did not do a comparison with Abbadon?

Abbadon's math gets a little bit fuzzy with his variable number of attacks, but let's give it a try:

Abbadon:
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.67% chance to hit,
S 8 vs. T4 = 83.33% chance to hit (increased to 97.22% with wargear),
Calgar has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has +1d6 bonus attacks, but hits himself instead if he rolls a 1.

66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 0 attacks × 16.67% = 0.00, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 6 attacks × 16.67% = 0.32, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 7 attacks × 16.67% = 0.38, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.43, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 0.49, plus
66.67% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.54 equals ~2.16 unsaved wounds per turn.

Abbadon thus requires 4 ÷ 2.16 = 1.85 rounds to flatten Calgar.

Calgar:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
S 8 vs T 5 = 83.33% chance to wound (increase to 97.22% with Titanic Might), and
Abbadon has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50.00% chance to get through.

50.00% × 97.22% × 50.00% × 5 attacks = ~1.22 unsaved wounds per turn.

In the 1.85 rounds Calgar has before Abbadon kills him, we can expect Abbadon to suffer 16.67% × 50.00% × 1.85 = 0.15 wounds from his own daemon weapon. Subtracting this from Abbadon's 4 wounds leaves us with it taking (4 - 0.15) ÷ 1.22 = 3.16 rounds for Calgar to KO Abbadon.

This fight's a lot more conclusive, as Abbadon will pretty much dominate Calgar handily. Given that Abbadon's also 25 points more expensive, this isn't totally surprising, although it also doesn't totally explain the lopsidedness of the beatdown Abbadon can hand out. The man's simply a beast in close combat.

Just for fun, I'll run Draigo against Calgar as well.


Draigo:
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.67% chance to hit,
S 5 vs. T4 = 66.67% chance to hit, and
Calgar has a 4+ invulnerable save = 50% chance to get through.

66.67% × 66.67% × 50.00% × 4 attacks = ~0.89 unsaved wounds per turn.

It will take Draigo 4 ÷ 0.89 = 4.50 rounds to skewer Calgar.

Calgar:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit,
S 8 vs T 5 = 83.33% chance to wound (increase to 97.22% with Titanic Might), and
Draigo has a 3+ invulnerable save = 33.33% chance to get through.

50.00% × 97.22% × 33.33% × 5 attacks = ~0.81 unsaved wounds per turn.

Calgar will therefore need 4 ÷ 0.81 = 4.94 rounds to punch out Draigo.

This matchup's also fairly close, only slightly less favorable than boxing with Mephiston. Based only on CC ability, I'd defiantly rate Calgar as close to Draigo, especially given the 25-point deficit Calgar faces.

So, a couple of things to note with this. Firstly, abbadon's demon weapon makes it very possible for calgar to win. There's a one in six chance that abbadon does absolutely no damage to calgar AND punches himself in the face. Really, you should do two sets of calculations, one for an average amount of damage assuming he doesn't roll a 1, and another for if he does. Doing it the way you did causes the effect of a rebelling demon to get averaged out over the rest of the attacks in a way that I think hides the truly catastrophic events surrounding abbadon's demon weapon failing.

Secondly, remember, calgar has combat tactics. When you run the simulations, what you've really got to do is to calculate how much damage the two do to each other and then (assuming that calgar loses), you have to take into account the fact that he can just back up and then blast away with his AP2 bolters before the fight begins again.

Plus, of course, the fact that abbadon doesn't give anything to his army while calgar does, but that's a different issue.

Excellent analysis, and a good read. This had me laugh out loud.

Given that Abbadon's also 25 points more expensive, this isn't totally surprising, although it also doesn't totally explain the lopsidedness of the beatdown Abbadon can hand out. The man's simply a beast in close combat.

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Ailaros wrote:Secondly, remember, calgar has combat tactics. When you run the simulations, what you've really got to do is to calculate how much damage the two do to each other and then (assuming that calgar loses), you have to take into account the fact that he can just back up and then blast away with his AP2 bolters before the fight begins again.

To get away he will need to choose to fail his morale test and win an init check to get away right, and on a tie he loses.

Isn't that he way combat tactics works?

sudojoe wrote:Drop pods are quite good I'd say. The fact that they are AV 12 also makes them kind of nice. The only problem is the reliability and reserve rolls might make for the other half the pods you have. ALso just 2 pods will not work that well since one guy in the enemy zone at turn one usually means a suicide run

Ironclads are also sometimes a bit underrated. The armor on that thing just means bad ass tar pit unit. Alot of things will have a hard time getting through that thing without rending or some sort of power fist.

Bikes have been put to good effect before. They can get pretty pricy which limits their numbers. Also losing that BS4 really hurts.

Combat tactics has some very interesting play mechanics and I agree it is under used. Most people tend to like the other options given. Frankly I think the BA benefit more from a chaplin than the vanilla marines. Rerolls to hit works better with lightning claws terminators I think. Calgar really is just too expensive I think. you almost always take the terminator upgrade so your HQ is like 265 points!. Most times I can pass morale already with Ld 9 so it's not worth that much. Getting run down in close combat just means no-retreat saves anyway so I don't see how it really helps free up enemy assault units for shooting next turn.

Tiberius is just too many points I think for his survivability. Just 2 wounds and no invulv save. 3 psy powers is also kind of overkill as you really risk killing yourself with perils. Not all of the powers are going to be worth it either. I've yet to find a good use for teleporting around and the shooting all have different ranges which make them kind of hard to use on the same target. Zone of banishment works very well though. Usually a regular librarian will get what you need.


Honor guard and command squad I kind of agree with you that I don't really ever see them used. The sternguard however is where I think the action is at. All those lovely bolters really make a nice combo.

Tig has an iron halo? (Or is it just the 5+ invuln power?)

Wanna know what's better than an Assault Cannon? An Assault Cannon with Psybolt Ammo.

labmouse42 wrote:Excellent analysis, and a good read. This had me laugh out loud.

Given that Abbadon's also 25 points more expensive, this isn't totally surprising, although it also doesn't totally explain the lopsidedness of the beatdown Abbadon can hand out. The man's simply a beast in close combat.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:Secondly, remember, calgar has combat tactics. When you run the simulations, what you've really got to do is to calculate how much damage the two do to each other and then (assuming that calgar loses), you have to take into account the fact that he can just back up and then blast away with his AP2 bolters before the fight begins again.

To get away he will need to choose to fail his morale test and win an init check to get away right, and on a tie he loses.

Isn't that he way combat tactics works?

And be back in combat because of ATSKNF with none the wiser? Not a huge loss, worth the risk. It's a power that is too infrequently used by Ultra marine players because they don't understand it's usefullness.

Calgar can give a beat down if used right.

labmouse42 wrote:To get away he will need to choose to fail his morale test and win an init check to get away right, and on a tie he loses.

Isn't that he way combat tactics works?

Yes, but both abbadon and draigo win in the end, which makes me think that it's rather likely that calgar will lose any one given round of close combat, which means that this event would trigger rather often.

And yeah, you're not guaranteed to get away, but you will some times, and when you don't the no retreat is going to be pinging against termie armor, so it's not the biggest risk.

Oh, and not to forget, when he DOES get away, not only is he blasting with Ap2 bolters, but he also gets +1A, because he will undoubtedly be charging right back in.

Yep, so long as he does not leave on his turn, he can assault right back in.

You have a point about the risk/reward. He probably will be losing the combat by 1 or 2 per round, so if he fails he does not have that many fearless saves to make. This is even more true if you spend the 15 points on terminator armor.

So, I guess it's not ALL that likely. You have to lose combat and lose it on your opponents turn and successfully break, but the odds of that happening are roughly on part with abbadon beating himself in the face. Not the most likely thing, but it has a big impact on any given particular battle when it does.

I mean, you could imagine a situation where calgar roflstomps abbadon this way. Calgar gets some free shooting, abbadon charges and beats calgar by once, calgar falls back, shoots, and charges back in while abbadon's blade slits his own throat. Perhaps only happens once in 30 engagements, but calgar can beat up abbadon while suffering as few as a single wound in return.

Add to this the also unlikely circumstance of abbadon being in close combat for two rounds and rolling two 1's, or the circumstance of abbadon rolling a 1 one and calgar doesn't break, or calgar breaking without abbadon rolling a one and now you've got something like vaguely roughly 1 in 6 or 1 in 8 battles that go shockingly and surprisingly poorly for abbadon, just through a conspiracy of several unlikely events all pooling together.


Oh, and I thought of another question. Why bother with combi-weapons on sternguard? Their special munitions means that they already have built in flamers and plasma guns. I guess I could see some combi-melta action, but even then, why bother give it to the whole squad? How many meltas do you really need? Why not just take a couple of regular meltaguns and not bother with the combi part?

Ailaros wrote:Oh, and I thought of another question. Why bother with combi-weapons on sternguard? Their special munitions means that they already have built in flamers and plasma guns. I guess I could see some combi-melta action, but even then, why bother give it to the whole squad? How many meltas do you really need? Why not just take a couple of regular meltaguns and not bother with the combi part?

The combi-weapons can give you a stronger version of their weapons when you need it without sacrificing the Special Ammunition by taking a special weapon.

Taking alot of combi-weapons gives you a better threat presence and allows you to tackle consecutive unit threats (like transport spam for combi-meltas), or be completely sinister against hordes (the Combi-Flamers would be fired simulatneously, so no rolling until all the Flamers have fired).

Combi-weapons give Sternguard alot of utility and use without sacrificing their Special Ammunition, which in turn saves you points from buying completely seperate units just to mule the meltas the Stern-Guard can use...

Ailaros wrote:@ drop pods - The reason I think I got so excited about them is that they're the same cost as a rhino, but I couldn't think of any situation where I'd rather have a rhino instead. A razorback, sure, but if you're not doing a gunline army, then I probably wouldn't bother.

Even without the ability to guarantee everybody showing up at the same time, it's hardly piecemeal. When you do force concentration with drop pods, it seems like you do force CONCENTRATION. Even if only half your army shows up, it's still going to have local superiority wherever it does show up at. Given that most everything else arrives the next turn, and, once again, you can pick the weakest spot to attack, this doesn't seem like much of a loss.

Really, the only thing a rhino can do is to put guys back in them and drive off, but I don't really see the benefit to this. On the one hand, is a rhino really going to survive long enough to bring a squad somewhere, wait for it to do damage, and then pick it back up, and then still drive somewhere? On an AV11 vehicle?

On the other hand, what's the point of being able to pick something up and go somewhere, if you've already just dropped there in the first place? The idea of late-game mobility doesn't make sense here, because if I already dropped on my opponent's objective(s), then I'm already where I need to be late game, it's just I got there much earlier.

It strikes me that the difference between drop pods and rhinos is that the former brings marines to where they need to be right away and lets them fight there all game with a free round of shooting without getting shot at. Rhinos seem like something that your opponent blows off the table with autocannons turn 1 and makes your space marines walk. If I wanted a foot horde SM list, I'd take a foot horde SM list, and wouldn't even bother with the rhinos.

In defense of the Rhino, it's worth noting that the Drop Pod comes pre-immobilized, which makes it a very easy kill point even against something S 6 that can only glance it. It also tends to get involved in a multi-assault with its contents immediately after landing if CC units are anywhere in the area. Additionally, the Rhino can always be used to tank shock or contest objectives if it lives long enough, something which the drop pod often can't do if it scatters off an objective and the marines inside couldn't get the job done themselves.

Ailaros wrote:@ combat tactics. Yes, regular marines will fold in close combat to CC monsters, but with combat tactics, that's the POINT. The scary thing gets in CC, you fall back, and then you regroup and shoot it again (with the help of everything nearby). The #1 most awful thing for a close combat squad is to be stuck out in the open at the mercy of your opponent's guns - especially at short range. Combat tactics makes this happen.

Without combat tactics, SM are stuck in close combats that they would rather back up from and shoot. Stubborn marines against stubborn power blobs means a lot of dead marines. CT SM against stubborn blobs means that in any turn that they kill more than you do, you can just back up and unload on the blob (now very much likely not in cover) with bolters. See ya later blob.

In all honesty, Tac squads have a nasty habit of folding in CC to almost anything. They're shockingly bad in combat, especially against any of the other power armor armies. It's also worth noting that ATSKNF only allows you to ignore the 50% casualties restriction when checking to regroup; a low fall back move coupled with a large enemy consolidation after using combat tactics to escape may well see that unit escorted off the table before it can regroup. CT and ATSKNF are great rules for a shooting army, but it's not Hit and Run, and shouldn't be treated as such.

Ailaros wrote:@ Tigurious - but the COMBOS! Big scary thing nearby? smite+might+null zone. A tank you need killed over there? gate+curse+vortex. Need to hold somewhere at all costs? avenger+dome+quickening. The most impressive thing is that it's a single model that could do ANYTHING. You're not stuck putting him into a single role. He seems like the paragon of violent flexibility.

It seems like the only thing he's missing is eternal warrior, which means that I suppose you'd have to be somewhat careful of what you throw him at (although with the ability to throw down WS5 I10 force weapon attacks with an invul save, I even question that), and obviously it's going to be rough against, say, grey knights, but still, it seems like people who have a good sense of imagination would get a lot out of this guy.

Except most of his combos simply do not work. Gate/Curse/Vortex in particular doesn't work for two reasons; firstly that Vortex is Heavy 1 and effectively can never be used by a power armor Librarian (never mind the terrible things that happen on a failed psychic test), and secondly because both powers are PSAs, of which you may only use one per turn. Null Zone, Might of Ancients, and Quickening all sound like great powers, but all can explicitly only be used in your player turn, leaving you crippled and vulnerable in your opponents assault phase if you can't break the unit in yours.

Ailaros wrote:I did a double take on sicarius. I don't even care about his beefy close combattedness (though it seems rather beefy), he looks like a good buy for just his three special rules. Plus, he's somewhat beefy in close combat.

It is worth pointing out that Rites of Battle does not replace or require Combat Tactics, making Sicarius an excellent second HQ unit for any army which takes one of the other special characters.

Ailaros wrote:on a similar note, no love for antaro? His guard equivalent (Pask) isn't really all that worth taking, but a land raider that can stone cold ignore shaken and stunned results seems pretty good. I guess he does have that obnoxious rule that makes him worth an extra kill point. Perhaps if he could get in another vehicle and try again he'd be worth it...

Personally, I like Chronus, but the price tag is a bit steep, even accounting for the points you save in not having to buy extra armor. He's probably best in a dakka or auto/las Predator, since most Land Raiders have twin-linked weapons that don't benefit as much from BS 5, although competing schools of thought will maintain that you can simply buy a second tank for the points you're spending on him. If he gets blown out of his vehicle he becomes an IC, so run him to the nearest squad and hide in it to save the KP, and/or use his servo-arm to threaten enemy vehicles and characters.

Ailaros wrote:What's the deal with shooty termies? On the one hand, I look at them and see for the a little more than price of 10-properly kitted tac marines in a drop pod, you get 5 termies. You lose half your bolter shots at close range, for the same durability against small arms, and you can't take a special weapon (but you can take either cyclone or assault cannon for heavy), and everyone gets a 5++, and everyone gets a power fist for free.

On the one hand, it seems like they're a harder, better armed, boiled-down version of a tac squad. On the other, it looks like they're just a boiled down tac squad - a non scoring troops choice in the elite slot. I've played against shooty termies before and was really unimpressed, but looking at their codex entry, I feel like I should be, at least somewhat. What am I missing?

Tactical Terminators really require Lysander to function. If you decide to go that route, get ten terminators with two cyclones and Lysander, then deep strike them all near something juicy and light it up. Use Lysander to soak up any threatening firepower that would hurt the other terminators, and make sure to pile him into combat if you get charged to encourage your opponent to over-allocate attacks to him or at least dish out some S 10 TH hits.

Ailaros wrote:

Really, the only thing a rhino can do is to put guys back in them and drive off, but I don't really see the benefit to this. On the one hand, is a rhino really going to survive long enough to bring a squad somewhere, wait for it to do damage, and then pick it back up, and then still drive somewhere? On an AV11 vehicle?

I think we've had this discussion before. Things like this statement still make me suspect that you're still not grasping how a mech army works.

Ailaros wrote:
- People keep talking up speeders, but I don't get it. Yeah, you have the ability to deepstrike on something with a multimelta (or whatever), that's fine, but outside of this role it's just an AV10 vehicle. Doesn't seem durable enough to make much of an impact after its initial splash. You hardly ever see eldar players carrying around a bunch of vypers and sentinels in more serious guard lists are practically non-existant for this very reason.

Deepstriking speeders is almost never a good idea, but if you do, then that's where Vulkan is worth his points (and the tradeoff with combat tactics).

But the most valuable speeder is actually the typhoon/HB. For a little more than the cost of your 5 devs with 4 MLs, you can get two typhoons that can move 12" and shoot the same number of missiles as the dev unit, can get cover sitting behind a rhino while still shooting, and can also move 12" and throw out 4 frag blasts and 6 HB shots, all at standoff ranges. I hardly ever see a competitive space marine army without at least a few typhoons, and some armies build their firebase around it.

Multiple squadrons of AV 10 vehicles are a pain to shoot down completely, especially when they can stand off at 36" or 48" so that you need big guns to harm them. My typhoon squadrons may get dented, but they hardly ever give up a KP during the course of a game.

Actually even if Calgar manages to CT out, he has to fall back by 6" more than the pursuer consolidates in order to auto-rally in his next turn. In the vacuum the combat is taking place the risk-reward is kinda messed since on the table top you will normally have supporting units facilitating the tactical withdrawal when you use it.


@ OP: Drop pods are good, but its an all or none type strategy. Given you lack of appreciation for transports in general, I can understand why you like them better than the rhino. If you do make an SM army, I'm sure you'd love the Drop Pod Assault types. Keep in mind that you get half rounded up at the start of your first turn, and the rest come in as normal from reserves (4+ turn 2 etc).

-I agree about combat tactics. The rule is awesome, and IMO allows for greater depth of tactics used on the field. It does have some downsides and requires correct positioning of support units, but when you get your units working together its beautiful.

-Assault cannons are one of my favourite SM weapons. My razorbacks use the TL assault cannon to great success. On a drop pod dread the MM/HF option seems better as the damage is much greater at the ranges you can put it. I think razorbacks are the best platform for the assault cannon.

-The problem with all slogging armies is their comparable lack of damage output - especially at range. That being said, I'm sure that you could do at least reasonably well with a Company-style list.

-Scout bikes are BS3 IIRC, which is the biggest problem with scouts. Still, they look alright to me if you got a list that needs the role they offer. I've never personally used them as I haven't found a place they fit in the build I run.

-I use lots of vehicles, so I like predators with AC/Las better. for 120 points, you get 2 S7 and 2 S9 shots. Devs are 30 more points to make them all S8 with the blast option. They take damage differently, and the AV just works better for me. In a slogging list, I'd choose the devs tho.

-Tigurius seems good, but I'm pretty cheap when it comes to spending points in the army. His price tag is just to much for me considering he has no invuln. I use a libby with SS to go with my assault terminators, but there is no reason Tigurius couldn't find a build he works in.

-Honour guard suck as Assault terminators are better than them in every way. Command squads that try to be a CC unit suffer from the same problem, but they offer a unique option for a shooting unit -say 4x plasmaguns + apoth seems like the best setup to me.

SM are a great army, and fun to play. The codex is not brimming with power, but seems to allow a huge variety of armies that can be effective given a good list builder and solid play.

As Flavious said, Typhoons operate in the optimal range for AV10 vehicles.

AV10 seems almost wasteful to shoot dedicated anti-tank weapons at(the weapons that have the range to touch them in the 36-48" zone) because weaker weapons can also take them out. This creates a tactical connundrum.

Typhoons also arn't as obvious a threat as a MM/HF speeder(which is massive) which operates within the range that HB and equivalents can drop them.


Typhoons are also cheap enough that you can afford other threats to distract from them.

2500 point game. 9 typhoon speeders is 810 points. You still have enough points for Assault Terminators in a Raider, a couple Autocannon dreds/Sternguard, Tactical squads in transports, and a solid HQ.


Lets say the list is as follows.

Libby(TDA, SS)

Tac squad(meltagun, combi-melta, PF, lascannon)
Rhino

Tac squad(flamer, combi-flamer, PW, lascannon)
Rhino

5 Assault Terminators
Landraider(multi-melta)

Dreadnought(TL-lascannon, missile launcher)

Dreadnought(TL-lascannon, missile launcher)

3 Typhoons

3 Typhoons

3 Typhoons

Predator(Autocannon, HB sponsons)

Predator(Autocannon, HB sponsons)

Predator(Autocannon, HB sponsons)

2440 pts


Target priority for my opponent may not be the speeders in this situation, especially not with his Missiles and Lascannons(or equivilant)

He will probably be more worried about the Landraider and 3 Predators.


And the list itself is pretty scary. its got 2 lascannons, 3 TL-lascannons, 3 autocannons, 20 missiles, 15 heavy bolters, and 1 TL-heavy bolter.

And its got 60 points of wiggle room for improvements. Could change the Rhinos into Razorbacks or something.

Ailaros wrote:So, a couple of things to note with this. Firstly, abbadon's demon weapon makes it very possible for calgar to win. There's a one in six chance that abbadon does absolutely no damage to calgar AND punches himself in the face. Really, you should do two sets of calculations, one for an average amount of damage assuming he doesn't roll a 1, and another for if he does. Doing it the way you did causes the effect of a rebelling demon to get averaged out over the rest of the attacks in a way that I think hides the truly catastrophic events surrounding abbadon's demon weapon failing.

Secondly, remember, calgar has combat tactics. When you run the simulations, what you've really got to do is to calculate how much damage the two do to each other and then (assuming that calgar loses), you have to take into account the fact that he can just back up and then blast away with his AP2 bolters before the fight begins again.

Plus, of course, the fact that abbadon doesn't give anything to his army while calgar does, but that's a different issue.

The problem with statistical analysis of small samples sizes is one of variance. Unfortunately, there's no way around it. Abbadon is exactly as likely to roll a one and get punched out in one turn as he is to roll a six and wipe out Calgar immediately. No die roll in any case can be treated as any more important than any other die roll, so you'd have to case out every single roll in the entire combat, which would be in the order of several billion outcomes. You could write a Finite-State Machine to simulate the fight a few million times, but I suspect you'd eventually come back to something close to the statistical solution above.

As far as (ab)using Combat Tactics, keep in mind Abbadon does has a higher initiative than Calgar, and may well catch him before he escapes. Also note that there is no point in trying to break during your own Assault phase, as that simply gets you shot up and charged again. Given that, in the average scenario above Calgar dies in the top of round two before he ever get a chance to flee. Moral of the story: Avoid CC with Abbadon. Shoot him in the face instead until the twitching stops.

Creeperman wrote: Shoot him in the face instead until the twitching stops.

Wow good job sir. I spit out my coffee when I read this line.

I actually run 4 scout bikers in my SM list, a PF and locator beacon brings them to 140pts (same as the 2 MM/HF speeders in my list). If I get first turn I infiltrate them, turbo-boost up to my opponent using their scout move, first turn my librarian and 6 assault terminators gate up to the bikers, the bikers then move off and trash a transport or 2, or tie up some long fangs or another of a whole variety of disruption tactics.

Being able to get a first turn assault is amazing, and the WS3 is balanced out by the T4(5) which means I can quite happily throw them at long fangs and they will probably hold (or win). People who haven't played against them don't realise what a pain they can be. That said they are very fragile though.

Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Also in defence of honour guard you don't throw them at TH/SS terminators you keep them cheap and cheerful. I have a friend who runs them with Pedro to great success. Hides them in rhino and late game they come out and pick on marines. They have 3 PW attacks basic and the champion (WS5, 3 attacks) can take a TH or Relic Blade, and gets to re-roll all hits and wounds against enemy ICs. That's pretty good for 130pts and doesn't take up an FOC.

ps. with the Abbadon vs. Calgar thing, Calgar gets to choose wether to pass or fail and Abbadon in terminator armour can't sweeping advance (i.e. cause fearless saves) anyways.

Creeperman wrote:In all honesty, Tac squads have a nasty habit of folding in CC to almost anything. CT and ATSKNF are great rules for a shooting army, but it's not Hit and Run, and shouldn't be treated as such.

This doesn't seem fair. Yeah, tac squads will fold to dedicated close combat squads on said other squads' terms, but to say it's just universally bad against everything is untrue, especially if you take into account that they're likely going to get to shoot bolters and/or bolt pistols first. In a straight up fight, I'd take the tac marines over non-blob guard, guardians, warriors (from either codex), and even boyz. They've still got a great statline, and they have the "not-hit-and-run" for everything else.

That combo might not be literally hit and run, but it's pretty close. Your opponents are only consolidating D6, and you're falling back 2D6, which means you stand a pretty decent chance of getting outside of the 6" doom bubble, and if you're supporting things properly, even if you don't it shouldn't matter (as those space marines can still shoot boltguns etc. while continuing to retreat, making them basically as effective as if they'd rallied).

Flavius Infernus wrote:Things like this statement still make me suspect that you're still not grasping how a mech army works.
Multiple squadrons of AV 10 vehicles are a pain to shoot down completely

Grey Templar wrote:AV10 seems almost wasteful to shoot dedicated anti-tank weapons at

It seems like the only way to really appreciate the abilities of speeders is to grossly overestimate what AV10 is capable of withstanding. Same for rhinos. If guard players are growing concerned over the lack of staying power of AV12 in a leafblower list, I can't see how lighter vehicles would be anything but much worse.

I've played enough games against dark eldar that devolved into a turkey shoot (even with flickerfields) to place too much trust in the staying power of a couple of light vehicles. An all razorspam army with some speeders, perhaps, but taking a handful of them seems like a great way to throw away points into enemy autocannon fire, etc.

Dracos wrote:Drop pods are good, but its an all or none type strategy.

You know, I don't see why this need be. Why can't a razorspam army also throw a couple of dreads in drop pods and give your opponent a great deal to think about turn 1.

Dracos wrote:The problem with all slogging armies is their comparable lack of damage output - especially at range.

Yeah, I suppose you'd need to play it slightly differently. A tac quad has a lot of killing power mid-range, but they need to have ways of keeping opponents there. I suppose the field position offered by the foot horde would help against fast armies (especially if you had a couple of drop pods), and the CT-ATSKNF would be for guys who like to get too close for comfort. It would definitely be a different style, but it seems doable.

Dracos wrote: I like predators with AC/Las better. for 120 points, you get 2 S7 and 2 S9 shots. Devs are 30 more points to make them all S8 with the blast option.

Hmm, that's an interesting way of thinking about it, actually.

Dracos wrote: Command squads that try to be a CC unit suffer from the same problem, but they offer a unique option for a shooting unit -say 4x plasmaguns + apoth seems like the best setup to me.

Yeah, it's the apothecary and the ability to take SOME storm shields without requiring them to ALL take storm shields, combined with the ability to take THs, SSs and still take shooty stuff in the squad that makes them seem worthwhile in comparison.

CaptainJay wrote:Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Well, it's 48" and 36" when you add in the bike's movement. Plus, outflanking means side and rear shots and you can always charge in with a power fist. right after. Seems nifty, even without also using the scout's ability to bring stuff in via teleporting.

Perhaps not the best unit in the world in all builds, but I'm still kind of surprised that I've basically never seen them before, especially since they seem generally better than regular SM bikes.

Ailaros wrote:

Dracos wrote:Drop pods are good, but its an all or none type strategy.

You know, I don't see why this need be. Why can't a razorspam army also throw a couple of dreads in drop pods and give your opponent a great deal to think about turn 1.

Yeah I should amend that for dreads. They can be a solid threat in a pod in their own right, not really requiring much direct support.

Infantry on the other hand really need to concentrate themselves to use pods effectively. If you drop in your deployment zone, you might as well leave the pod at home. If you drop only a couple tacticals, you are leaving them forward and kinda out to dry. That was more what I was refering to than the dreads, which seem find to drop in smaller numbers as a "termicide" style throw-away.

Space Marine bikes are better because the addition of a bike mounted Captain makes them troops.

Compare 205 minimum points of meched Tactical squad to 185 points of bikes with dual melta and a multi-melta attack bike and you'll see why people like bikes.

Meanwhile Scout Bikers suffer from being Scouts riding bikes, ie heavy bolter bait.

Typhoon Speeders carry the longest range weapons in a Marine army, and not being open topped means they're a little tougher than Dark Eldar vehicles. Multi-melta Speeders are disposable anti tank guns.

Shooty termies are all-rounder units and as such have no place in the modern game. You pay through the nose for Storm Bolters, terminator armour and power fists, but if you wanted to assault them you'd rather have the 3+ save with TH/SS, and if you wanted them to be shooty...why the hell would you pay 40 points a model when you could get sternguard?

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Space Marine bikes are better because the addition of a bike mounted Captain makes them troops.

Compare 205 minimum points of meched Tactical squad to 185 points of bikes with dual melta and a multi-melta attack bike and you'll see why people like bikes.

Hmm, I do.

Were it not for the fact that bikes have a couple of serious problems (like not being able to get up into ruins, losing 1/6th of their models whenever their is terrain or terrain-like effects, etc.), I'd seriously consider an all-bike army.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Meanwhile Scout Bikers suffer from being Scouts riding bikes, ie heavy bolter bait.

But they also outflank and have a bunch of options. That's one main disadvantage for a bunch of perks.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Multi-melta Speeders are disposable anti tank guns.

Which is strange, as I don't see SM as being a "disposable" army. Certainly I can see the use of deepstriking speeders as suicide units, as they do this much cheaper than drop pod dreads, but still, that's sort of all they do, while other SM units have some real durability, and other options on the same unit, preventing it from being quite so niche.

Joey wrote:why the hell would you pay 40 points a model when you could get sternguard?

For the price of two squads of sternguard in a drop pod, you can afford three deepstriking termie squads. The sternguard may do quite a bit more up-front damage, but every time I've seen them used, they've been killed off in the next turn. Termies, on the other hand, may do less damage with their initial strike, but are certainly going to tough it out for at least another turn or two, meaning they apply their damage for longer

I'm not saying that one-shot-high-damage-suicide units are bad (indeed, I also like rough riders for guard), but that doesn't mean lower damage per turn but over more turns kind of killing power is bad either.

What you're asking is basically the same question a guard player asks when he queries "why take russes when there are other options?" Russes have half the killing power per point, but get AV14, which can often mean that they get more than twice the number of turns to shoot at stuff. It seems like termies are the same. Termies kill less when they arrive, but they're the killers that keep on killing. Plus, while termies are worse at taking positions, they're certainly a lot better at holding them.

Okay well 30 sternguard and a drop-pod vs termies in terms of damage output:

Sternguard vs MEQ (assuming the enemy MEQ is in cover which is a given)
12":60 shots, 40 hit, 33.3 wound, 11.1 dead.
24":5.6 dead

Termies vs MEQ:
12"-24":40 shots, 26.6 hit, 13.3 wound, 4.43 dead.


Sternguard vs TMC:
As above for MEQ

Termies vs TMC:
12"-24":40 shots, 26.6 hit, 4.43 wound, 1.47 wounds

Sternguard vs Orks:
12":60 shots, 40 hit, 20 wound and 20 dead
24":30 shots, 20 hit, 10 wound and 10 dead

Termies vs Orks:
12"-24":40 shots, 20 hit, 10 wound, 5 dead after cover.

So Sternguard obviously out-shoot termies. But at things that aren't MEQ they will be multiple times more efficient. Termies shooting at MEQs will do nothing, and shooting at horde will be a drop in the ocean. They can also do nothing from range against vehicles, whereas sternguard w/meltaguns will mean literally any unit that goes near them (or that it drop-pods near) will be smashed to dust.
Termies are just meh. Horde will ignore them since their damage output vs armour save is so low. Vehicles will move away from them to avoid being assaulted, MCs will simply avoid them.
Thinking about it now, most of the MEQ players I know aren't too bothered by Sternguard. But anyone who has T3 infantry and low armour saves, or Monsterous Creatures, curses them.
They may be hard to kill but that's not much use on a unit that's doing so little damage in the first place.
It's funny you mention the Russ actually. Single blast templates' unreliability coupled with high AV means it gets ignores in favour of weaker targets.

One final note on the usability of Combat Tactics to escape combat. Assuming no other combatants holding up the fight, the average chance of successfully falling back out of escort range of a consolidating enemy is 25.93%.

This assumes the opponent uses his full consolidation move to follow you as closely as possible, which you may be able to discourage with liberal application of heavy firepower. It is still a good number to keep in mind, in case you're in a situation with no immediate backup in range, to help you decide whether or not to take a gamble.

Joey wrote:Okay well 30 sternguard and a drop-pod vs termies in terms of damage output:

Actually, you've got to compare 20 sternguard to 15 termies. That way you're comparing equal points.

Against MEQ in cover, it's 11 dead marines for the sternguard (with 2 dead sternguard from burns) compared to the termies' 4 killed, but in the turn after the sternguard are much, much more easily gunned down with -1Sv and without the 5++ (and with only 3 more wounds to boot). Furthermore, if anyone gets into close combat with the sternguard, they're likely screwed, while the termies get aforementioned 2+/5++, and they just break out the power fists and start playing super punch out. Yeah, they really don't do as much up-front damage, but they really do stick around a lot longer. The survivability of the termies dilutes the up-front killing power, and the ability to kill in close combat can't be overlooked.

Once again, not to say sternguard are bad, but they're not auto-include over termies all the time.

Creeperman wrote:One final note on the usability of Combat Tactics to escape combat. Assuming no other combatants holding up the fight, the average chance of successfully falling back out of escort range of a consolidating enemy is 25.93%.

That's good to know. Thanks for the stat.

Ailaros wrote:@ devastators - It really does seem mostly jealousy. Looking just within the codex, devastators seem to have a fine role at a reasonable price. I could care less what units space wolves get.

Interesting comment about the speeder, though. That and the idea of taking a land raider instead. More expensive for one fewer gun, but comes with an assault ramp. Hmm. I don't see what the preds are doing better than devs, though. It seems with the exception of speeders (who do it a little better, but at greater cost), there doesn't really seem to be an alternative.

My argument against Dev's-

Asides from the fact that its a cheap way of getting firepower, I thought part of the Typhoons power was that it isn't a static firepower unit. For a comparable price I can get 5 Dev's with 4ML's+TLHB Razorback, or 2 Typhoons.
Both choices shoot 4 missiles per turn, one however can split fire. Both can add HB rounds when fragging infantry, the RB is twin linked, but the Typhoons have twice the shots- on average, the Typhoons will get you more hits per volley. But the real kicker is the mobility- the dev's MUST sit and fire. You can move out of LOS of my dev's and they can't fire. You move out of LOS of a Typhoon, its going to scoot into a cover denying position and still hit you.
The question of durability between these units is a harder one- A typhoon doesn't care as much as the Dev's about a volley of lasguns, but it cares much much more about a salvo of Lascannons than the dev's. However, Typhoons can scoot away from assaults, which combined with the ups and downs of an AV value makes me consider them more durable- they can move away from trouble, shooting and assaulting, and add to target saturation. Typhoons are a cheap and nasty way of getting solid flexible firepower in your army, AND they take up FA slots which generally aren't seen as important/competitive (assault squads/vanguard vets, anyone?........anyone ?

Even without the razorback- I'd rather the Typhoons. mobility, firepower, cheap price, adds to target saturation...can't go wrong.

But ailaros- I'm disappointed. I think you got over excited about the fluff and new stuff you read. I mean- scout bikes at BS4? Tigurius being awesome? Why would you ever take a rhino over a drop pod?.... =\

Well, as for devs v. speeders. They seem to have the same amount of firepower for the same price (assuming, of course, you're only talking about missile launchers. Things like multimeltas are a different story). The difference is that speeders gain the ability to deepstrike, and can more 6" and still fire, while the devastators are a fair bit more survivable. It seems strange to me that people decry scout bikers as being heavy bolter fodder, but then praise speeders, which are also heavy bolter fodder. Heck, speeders can be taken out by boltguns...

I get the deepstriking thing, and I can see if you're going for light armor saturation, but outside of this...?

Jihallah wrote:But ailaros- I'm disappointed. I think you got over excited about the fluff and new stuff you read. I mean- scout bikes at BS4? Tigurius being awesome? Why would you ever take a rhino over a drop pod?.... =\

Hah, I've caused plenty of nerdrage over the various new and interesting ways I've thought about guard stuff. I can't imagine opinions formed about space marine stuff would be different. People really like getting stuck in ruts with their thinking, and in this particular case I haven't even needed to force myself out of a rut, what with approaching with fresh eyes.

Certainly I'm not going to claim to be reinventing space marines, but there are certainly some things that it seems like either other people are missing, or I am.

If I've learned anything from my time playing with and talking about guard, it's that just because something is popular doesn't necessarily make it the best, and just because its decried doesn't necessarily mean its garbage.

Ailaros wrote:If I've learned anything from my time playing with and talking about guard, it's that just because something is popular doesn't necessarily make it the best, and just because its decried doesn't necessarily mean its garbage.

So you find the Vanquisher above-garbage now, eh?

Combat Tactics is solid gold, I'l absolutely give you that. Especially if you coordinate with other units (say, a cheap shooty dread?) to rescue your tacticals, allowing them to safely retreat from a losing combat without being caught by Sweeping Advance.

I'm also planning a list to make Tactical Terminators work, though not Deep Striking, and admittedly I run Blood Angels so I plan to make them more durable using FNP.

Hey, I said disappointed, not nerd raged I think you'll change your opinions over time, based on my own MEQ experiences, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop you And hey, I ain't in no rut! The other week I was advocating MM's on tac squads

just because something is popular doesn't necessarily make it the best, and just because its decried doesn't necessarily mean its garbage

Unless they are decried/popular for good reason. Tactical terminators are often decried, but can be quite solid if you don't expect them to take on everything. Tigurius is not awesome however

As for the rhino vs drop pod, after many games I have to consider them equal but different. A drop pod gets me where I need to go now, but I have no transport protection. A rhino keeps me protected and moving, but can leave me stranded, pinned or unluckily end up badly hurt. A rhino adds target saturation much much more than a drop pod does- but drop pods with locator bacons are a much higher priority than considered at first. I hybrid my transportation between pods and rhino's- after many games with both, I can't turn down my pair of rhino squads as a minimum, but pods are so incredibly A) useful and B) stylish/fluffy that I felt by not using them I wasn't squeezing all I could from MEQ Codices. I field 3 as a minimum in a hybrid list, to give options on what I'm going to drop and reserve.

A lesson I have learned from chess. Every piece is disposable if losing it wins you the game.

Scout bikes have to operate within range of enemy fire. Land Speeders can operate 48" from the enemy which means they are protected from anything with shorter range. Their ability to gain 4+ cover by moving 12" while still being able to fire beats Scout Bikers 3+ cover save while being unable to fire.

BS3 means that anything other than twin-linked bolters is unreliable shooting. Land Speeders get two shot missile launchers at BS4. 90 points for Land Speeder Typhoons? Bargain.

Being able to outflank a substandard unit doesn't mean much. It's not like they can do anything when they get there. If I cared for outflanking I'd just take Kor'Sarro and get bikes carrying melta into the backfield.

Sure bikes have their weaknesses, but they're effective even at minimum sizes (5 models).

KplKeegan wrote:So you find the Vanquisher above-garbage now, eh?

I said "not necessarily", I'm not a straight-up contrarian.

Mannahnin wrote:I'm also planning a list to make Tactical Terminators work, though not Deep Striking, and admittedly I run Blood Angels so I plan to make them more durable using FNP.

I'd like to see this. Let me know what you can do with them.

Jihallah wrote:Hey, I said disappointed, not nerd raged

Nope, too late. Let the official record show that the actual events went like this:

Me: blah blah blah

Jihallah:



Me: woah, why you all gotta be up in the rage, bro?

Jihallah wrote:The other week I was advocating MM's on tac squads

I'm actually thinking of the MM, melta, combi-melta fist loadout, especially with pods. That's a lot of small squads with melta being able to target a lot of stuff all at once, or a few lotsa melta squads.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:A lesson I have learned from chess. Every piece is disposable if losing it wins you the game.

Sure, and I'm a foot guard player, so I'm well versed with the idea of sacrifice. Taking something as a suicide unit can be worth it if you set it up, right, and there can be rare times to sacrifice something important as a gambit.

That said, taking units that are fragile and saying "well, it may have died, but sometimes having my stuff killed is actually tactical genius, even if I didn't realise it beforehand". Sometimes fragile units are just fragile, and losing them is just plain old loss.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Being able to outflank a substandard unit doesn't mean much.

But, it's not really that bad. S6 side and rear attacks, charging from 18" off the sides of the board and powerfisting stuff, carrying a homer, or having the option to start on the board and turboboost, etc.

I agree with this statement when it's true. I'm not a big fan of penal legionnaires, for example, or outflanking scout sentinels, etc. but these scouts don't seem so bad.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Their ability to gain 4+ cover by moving 12"

Sure, but then you're not shooting. If my opponent is willing to give his vehicles a shaken result for free, without me even needing to do anything, well that's just fine. Plus, a cover save is still only a cover save. It doesn't make an AV10 unit invincible.

Furthermore, if you're setting up a scenario where the speeder is either moving OR shooting, well... what's the advantage over devestators? At least as far as this is concerned.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Hey, I said disappointed, not nerd raged

Nope, too late. Let the official record show that the actual events went like this:

Me: blah blah blah

Jihallah:



Me: woah, why you all gotta be up in the rage, bro?

Jihallah wrote:The other week I was advocating MM's on tac squads

I'm actually thinking of the MM, melta, combi-melta fist loadout, especially with pods. That's a lot of small squads with melta being able to target a lot of stuff all at once, or a few lotsa melta squads.

I would complain if it were not a striking image or my germanic good looks
Remember the power of the MM rhino! Move 12, smoke, create bubbles of death!
A drop pod can do this, but the marines are on foot and exposed, and it doesn't add to target saturation. The opponent either engages you or doesn't, but either way you've still got your reliable movement and added protection of the rhino.

But do try the MM pod- since MM is seen as a joke on tac marines, you might have a few folks undervalue the threat of a MM sitting in their lines

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Land Speeders can operate 48" from the enemy which means they are protected from anything with shorter range. Their ability to gain 4+ cover by moving 12" while still being able to fire....

Are you still playing 4th edition?

Tac squads are meh. Losing ccw&bp really made them mediocre compared to other marine codices.

TH/SS termies are the bomb. Being able to take SQUADRONS of hb/tml speeders is very good.

Vulkan is a fantastic special character.

Cassius is almost criminal for 125pts.

Other than that, there isn't much in the codex that is awesome or that sucks.

Cassius is another character i always forget about, but always love to rediscover. Criminal at 125 points covers it, i just wish there was a build in which he was better than nullzone... i mean a librarian.

I can safely say that until now, I had no idea that Cassius had T6.

Maybe I'll take him to lead a dedicated counter assault unit. Or even the Sternguard, since, he uses Hellfire rounds, just like them.

Also, this thread has convinced me even more to drop my razorbacks and go with TML Speeders. TL LC/AC < more missiles.

Crazyterran wrote:
Also, this thread has convinced me even more to drop my razorbacks and go with TML Speeders. TL LC/AC < more missiles.

The internet has everyone so worked up on MM/HF speeders because "its fast melta" (ignoring all the OTHER melta you can/will bring) and "it meshes so good with vulkan" (but what if i don't play vulkan?)

Typhoons are godly godly flexible cheap mobile firepower. Godly!

imweasel wrote:Tac squads are meh. Losing ccw&bp really made them mediocre compared to other marine codices.

Call the Waaaaaambulance! Someone is crying about Tac squads being crap! Crap compared to your other choice, scouts? or crap vs Ass marines, CSM, or GH?

Everyone loves GH over tacs, so I'm going to quote from 3++ here because this sums up the argument in an excellent fashion, and explains why you are a gakker for comparing apples to oranges. Enjoy `

The argument over Space Wolves being down-right better than Vanilla Marines cropped up the first time 15 point Grey Hunters were spotted. Whilst Space Wolves may be better than Vanilla Marines overall, the difference is marginal and each army ultimately works differently. This is where arguments saying Space Wolves are better Vanilla Marines can often come un-stuck - apples and oranges are difficult to compare and determine which is 'the best.' Let's look at the basic units for each codex and look at why.

Grey Hunters are cheaper, better in combat, can take two special weapons and have more upgrade options (generally combat focused such as Wolf Standard, Mark of the Wulfen, combat weapon, etc.). Tacticals are more expensive, come with Ld9 Sergeants standard, can only take a special and heavy at 10-strong squads, have combat tactics, combat squads and suck in combat. On the face of things very, very different and within each army, they do a very nice job. Grey Hunters have a lot more flexibility since they can access upgrades on 5-strong units. Tacticals are shoe-horned into running inefficient 5-strong units without special/heavy weapons or need to run full squads to get these benefits. Add in that Grey Hunters are much better in close ranged firefights with two special weapons, two close combat weapons and counter-attack and you can see why they and Space Wolves in general, are considered far superior to Tacticals and Vanilla Marines.



However, this fits the style of play Space Wolves generally encourage. It's much more aggressive with increased combat ability across the army and what Grey Hunters lack, heavy weapons, combat tactics, Ld9, is what make Tacticals good. If Grey Hunters want Ld9 they have to lose an Elite slot and their second special weapon for a one-shot combi weapon. On MSU squads this is fine as you aren't looking for that second special weapon regardless but for larger squads and overall army design, this is a mild limitation. You of course don't need to go for Ld9 but the 10% difference in pass/fail can be pretty significant and will come up often enough. Back to Tacticals...by having heavy weapon options along with their boltguns, they play a much more midfield shooting role and combat tactics supports this. Sure in comparison to Grey Hunters they suck in combat but they are more capable of avoiding it and impacting the battlefield from afar. This is a premise Space Marines need to work their lists around and is very different from Space Wolves.

Put it this way. Grey Hunters as multiple squads across the whole army cannot engage in ranged firefights. Yes you can use a plasma gun special weapon, 24" rapid fire range, Rune Priests and Wolf Guard with Cyclone Missile launchers but that becomes very inefficient and very expensive. In the end, Grey Hunters excel in your opponent's face. Not only are they decent in combat but that's where their primary shooting firepower is. Tacticals on the other hand have that ranged weapon option. It's one gun sure but they back that up with a reliable and solid scoring presence in midfield along with the boltguns. They are much worse in combat than Grey Hunters but are less likely to be in your opponent's face because they do not belong there. These two very different roles are often what define the two different armies and how they operate on the tabletop.

Jihallah wrote:Typhoons are godly godly flexible cheap mobile firepower. Godly!

So, I really don't want to disparage speeders too much here.

My complaint isn't that speeders are awful, so much as I disagree with what I see as overestimation. I look at speeders and compare them to devastators and predators and I don't see anything special. They really look roughly the same for the price, just with different styles. They put out roughly the same power per point, but preds gain much better armor, speeders gain deepstrike, and devs gain the durability of infantry models in cover (as well as the ability to assault. A 10x dev squad is still a 10x marine squad, which is still better at CC than a bunch of stuff, especially if you shoot them up first).

Good? Perhaps. Godly? I really, really don't see it.

Jihallah wrote:

imweasel wrote:Tac squads are meh. Losing ccw&bp really made them mediocre compared to other marine codices.

Call the Waaaaaambulance! Someone is crying about Tac squads being crap! Crap compared to your other choice, scouts? or crap vs Ass marines, CSM, or GH?

etc.

Yeah, I've got short patience for this. Play some non-power-armor armies and get some perspective.

Plus, judging something solely by its kit while ignoring things like its special rules is missing things badly.

Dracos wrote:Cassius is another character i always forget about, but always love to rediscover. Criminal at 125 points covers it

T6, but only W2. He's a couple of power fist attacks away from junked, plus, he curses the squad with fearless.

A regular captain with a fist gains +1WS, +1BS, +1W, +1A and a fair amount more strength with those attacks (or he could take a relic blade and keep the initiative). Don't see what cassius really chips in here. I mean, I guess if you're taking assault termies, but otherwise...

Infernus, Hellfire Rounds, Reroll attacks to hit on the charge.

Cassius makes a good counter assault unit with a squad of tactical marines. I wouldn't run him with Terminators because he's less durable and can't take Termie Armor.

And all of the non-captain SM heroes have 2W. Doesn't stop people from taking Librarians over Captains all the time.

Captains are a decent assault unit in a codex that doesn't want to assault, and he provides nothing special anymore. If he still had the ability like he did in the previous codex to share his LD with units around him, he might be more worth it. But, since he has no special abilities...

Librarians would always be my #1 choice, but Cassius for some back up with the Sternguard or whatever is a good #2 hero down the line, especially if you don't have the points to drop 265 on Calgar.

Also, if you give the Captain a relic blade, Cassius will have the same # of attacks, since he has a Bolt Pistol / Crozius that he can use in close combat.

EDIT:

Also, I used to run 2 MM/HF Speeders, but after thinking about it, they haven't really done anything. If I do face a Land Raider, I can immobilize it/stun it to death, and if i don't, having a MM against most things isn't a big deal - AV 14 isn't in huge abundance. The only thing other than land raiders I can think of is Monoliths and the front of a Battlewagon.

So, I really don't want to disparage speeders too much here.

My complaint isn't that speeders are awful, so much as I disagree with what I see as overestimation. I look at speeders and compare them to devastators and predators and I don't see anything special. They really look roughly the same for the price, just with different styles. They put out roughly the same power per point, but preds gain much better armor, speeders gain deepstrike, and devs gain the durability of infantry models in cover (as well as the ability to assault. A 10x dev squad is still a 10x marine squad, which is still better at CC than a bunch of stuff, especially if you shoot them up first).

Good? Perhaps. Godly? I really, really don't see it.

10x Devastator Squad costs your firstborn son. for only 40 more points, you can get a extra 2 Missile Launchers and have them be able to move and fire. Move 12" and fire at tanks, move 12" and fire it's HB and Frag Missiles at Hordes. It's something that Space Marines don't really have - mobile firepower.

Sure, Predators are cheaper. In fact, you should probably take a predator instead, it's Autocannon/HB are good for dealing with most things. However, Landspeeders are a Fast Attack choice; they almost give you 6 Heavy Support slots if you use the Speeders in this form, and they are much more mobile. A Predator can't fire all of it's weapons if it moves, which makes it static. I'd almost call Vindicators better mobile fire bases than Predators, since it only has one weapon you'd want to fire. (of course, if you have a predator model vs a vindicator model, probably take the Predator. )

If Devastator's Heavy Weapons where cheaper, im sure more people would be all over that like a fat kid on cake. But, as they are now, they are the most expensive Heavy Support choice if you bulk them up.

Playing Space Marines against later, more efficient armies is about maximizing your bang for your buck. Since they don't compare in assault to Space Wolves, Blood Angels and especially Grey Knights, you're left with shooting. That means you want to maximize the shooting power in each slot.

What units provide the most firepower for the points in each slot?

Elites: dreadnoughts with two twin-linked autocannon. 125 points gives you 4 twin-linked strength 7 shots on a mobile armour 12 chassis. For 150 points you can take a multi-melta/heavy flamer dreadnought in a drop pod which makes a useful disruption unit. A squad of Sternguard provide a ride for your infantry HQ).

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Typhoons. A 2 shot missile launcher and a heavy bolter on a fast vehicle for 90 points is very good value. Multi-melta or multi-melta/heavy flamer provide anti armour, although if you're using bikes as troops you'll have plenty of fast melta anyway. Sure, they're made of tissue paper but they outrange many things and a non open-topped vehicle still has 5th edition vehicle survivability even with armour 10.

In heavy support there's really only one option, the humble Predator. 85 points gives you 8 anti infantry/light vehicle shots. A few more give you the autolas, much loved by Blood Angel players but probably less useful for Codex Marines lacking the overcharged engines that allow the Angels to move 6" and fire everything.

The only real variety is in troops and the variation there is a choice between two Rhino mounted tactical squads, a single Rhino mounted Tactical squad and a Scout squad led by Telion, or if you take a biker Captain you can get bikes. If you don't take a bike Captain then your HQ will be a Librarian or possibly Vulkan .

Variations from this, pure bikes (my favourite, no I haven't fielded a Land Speeder since 4th edition), Vulkan and 10 thunder hammer terminators squeezed into two Redeemers or Crusaders (dual rock, vulnerable to having their rides shot away) and Shrike and infiltrating fleet terminators (a novelty build but fleet terminators are much scarier than the normal kind and after infiltrating they could be in combat turn one).

Ailaros wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Well, it's 48" and 36" when you add in the bike's movement. Plus, outflanking means side and rear shots and you can always charge in with a power fist. right after. Seems nifty, even without also using the scout's ability to bring stuff in via teleporting.

Perhaps not the best unit in the world in all builds, but I'm still kind of surprised that I've basically never seen them before, especially since they seem generally better than regular SM bikes.

Nope, you only move 12" and fire so incorporating movement it's 3 shots at 36" or 6 at 24". As I said I run them as a disruption unit, I aim to get multi-assaults with them, the scouts going into infantry and the PF going onto a vehicle if possible, which 'fingers crossed' takes out a tank and protects them from fire next turn. As mentioned the 4+ save makes them very fragile if they get shot at. Sadly I don't have the points for grenade launchers (I will try them one day), but as aforementioned I think 1.5 Str6 hits aren't going to do much to a tank, and on the flipside, if you do destroy a tank the bikes are then going to evaporate from return fire.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:A lesson I have learned from chess. Every piece is disposable if losing it wins you the game.

Scout bikes have to operate within range of enemy fire. Land Speeders can operate 48" from the enemy which means they are protected from anything with shorter range. Their ability to gain 4+ cover by moving 12" while still being able to fire beats Scout Bikers 3+ cover save while being unable to fire.

BS3 means that anything other than twin-linked bolters is unreliable shooting. Land Speeders get two shot missile launchers at BS4. 90 points for Land Speeder Typhoons? Bargain.

Being able to outflank a substandard unit doesn't mean much. It's not like they can do anything when they get there. If I cared for outflanking I'd just take Kor'Sarro and get bikes carrying melta into the backfield.

Sure bikes have their weaknesses, but they're effective even at minimum sizes (5 models).

As before scout bikers are fragile, but I've reasonable success with them (mainly tying up units, or picking on targets weaker than them). Bikes get 3+ cover from going more than 18", plus you can go to ground, fail you're morale (if you're going to lose a model) and regroup next turn if needed. Speeders get 4+ from going more than 12" but are then destroyed on a 4+ if any pen's make it through your cover save.

I'm not denying Typhoons are a bargain, they definitely are (though rifleman love shooting at them).

Ailaros wrote:

It seems like the only way to really appreciate the abilities of speeders is to grossly overestimate what AV10 is capable of withstanding. Same for rhinos. If guard players are growing concerned over the lack of staying power of AV12 in a leafblower list, I can't see how lighter vehicles would be anything but much worse.

I've played enough games against dark eldar that devolved into a turkey shoot (even with flickerfields) to place too much trust in the staying power of a couple of light vehicles. An all razorspam army with some speeders, perhaps, but taking a handful of them seems like a great way to throw away points into enemy autocannon fire, etc.

Open-topped makes less difference than the fact that Dark Eldar vehicles don't operate in squadrons. You shoot at three DE skimmers and kill two, you get 2 KPs. You shoot at a squadron of 3 speeders and kill 2, you score 0 KP (leaving the other one to zoom around the board out of LoS and deny you that one KP).

Also hit allocation in a squadron increases survivability a lot. Those high str, long-range shots come in small volleys that only score 1 or 2 hits at a time. With solo vehicles like DE, you shake one and move on to the next one. But in squadrons that first damaging shot always goes on the shaken, damaged vehicle in the squadron, leaving the other one(s) to move and fire as normal.

How can it be a "gross overestimation" when I'm talking out of my own direct experience here? I'm not estimating, I'm recalling.

I don't see how you can go wrong with multi-melta speeders especially with Vulkan. Immense threat range, or deep strike suicide. They will kill off much more than what they cost against any mech list. Which is any competitive list..

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Typhoons are godly godly flexible cheap mobile firepower. Godly!

So, I really don't want to disparage speeders too much here.

My complaint isn't that speeders are awful, so much as I disagree with what I see as overestimation. I look at speeders and compare them to devastators and predators and I don't see anything special. They really look roughly the same for the price, just with different styles. They put out roughly the same power per point, but preds gain much better armor, speeders gain deepstrike, and devs gain the durability of infantry models in cover (as well as the ability to assault. A 10x dev squad is still a 10x marine squad, which is still better at CC than a bunch of stuff, especially if you shoot them up first).

Good? Perhaps. Godly? I really, really don't see it.

What are you going to purchase with your FA options? If your going for fast melta, bikes or speeders are fairly equal. Ass marines and bikers are a bit flopish(unless herr kapitan is on a bike), vanguard vets a little less so, typhoons are funky if you have a scout unit... A typhoon you can take to any party and your sorted. The moments I like typhoons is when I make a shooty list and go "hmmm my elite slots are pretty shooty, my HS is pretty shooty, my troops have been given some good shooty, but I wish there was more shooty I could fit in....

...glorious, glorious 90p Typhoons! that will squeeze more firepower into my salvos for a ridiculous price! Glorious!"

Ailaros wrote:For 115 points apiece, you can get 2x 5-man space marine squads with 2x multimeltas apiece (one with a signum). I can't think of another codex that can do anything even vaguely similar.

Well, Codex: Space Marines can also get a squadron of 2 Attack Bikes with multi-meltas for 100 points, which is a wash on survivability (4 T5 3+ wounds with the prospect of boost > 5 T4 3+ wounds, but the Attack Bikes are vulnerable to Instant Death) and gains substantial mobility. If Devs were scoring, the option you discuss might be worth taking, but as it stands I don't think it's worth it, especially since mobility is so useful on multi-meltas.

I've never used attack bikes personally (just haven't had time to put together the models), but they do have the advantage of being able to completely hide behind a rhino/razorback, especially when the tank is turned sideways. The best that a dread or speeder can do is get a cover save from standing behind the rhino/razor.

Flavius Infernus wrote:
Also hit allocation in a squadron increases survivability a lot.

No, hit allocation makes a squadron of n as strong as an invidividual.
Say your squadroned Speeders get shot at by MC-Devs, they score three penetrating hits. Suddenly ALL THREE of your speeders have to take a penetrating hit. From one volley.
Squadronning any vehicle ever is nearly always a terrible idea.

Four missile devs (assume that's what you mean by MC-Devs) have an expected result of a little over 1.7 penetrating hits per volley on AV10 vehicles, including the signum. Half that if the vehicle(s) have cover saves. So the expected kills per volley is about .85 without cover or about .42 with cover.

Three penetrating hits is fairly unlikely from a single volley, but even it if does happen then the expected number of dead speeders is 1-2. It'll cripple the unit, but likely not score a KP.

On the other hand, if a unit of typhoons fires at the Devs first, you'd expect about 4 and sometimes 5 dead marines with krak & HB, or about 2-3 if they're in cover. So if they don't have ablative guys, it comes down to who gets to shoot first.

Just because something extremely bad might happen to a squadron sometimes doesn't make squadrons useless.

[edit]
Actually, Joey, I think you actually proved my point. Four missile devs are pretty likely to score a KP off a single rhino with a volley, but statistically extremely unlikely to score a KP off a squadron of speeders.

4 is 2.6 hit, 1.7 penetratings 0.43 glancings. That's a roll for one each of your speeders.
Unless you want to sacrifice their shooting capacity completely and put them in cover, sure. Generally speaking though it's pretty tough to do.
It's entirely possible for all three to be blown up in one turn, and not THAT unlikely.
Against Hive Guard, melta vets, devestators, laser preds, hydras, HWTs, anything that can lay down lots of high-strength shots.
And trying to funnel as many points into them as possible in order to maximise the size of your kill points is frankly silly.

Right, the point that joey is trying to make here is that if you have three individual speeders, you have to target them with three individual squads, soaking up more separate units worth of firepower, or taking longer. Most importantly, any amount of firepower that was overkill is simply lost.

With a squad of three, you can target it with one unit at a time until you're satisfied with the damage. It might take as many units, but it might not. Also, as Joey is noting, overkill isn't lost, it's rolled over. That 2x hydra squad on the other side of the board is going to put down is going to put down 3 penetrating hits, which means it's very possible to roll two vehicle destroyed results. On a single speeder, that extra result is lost. On a squad of speeders, that's two speeders down.

Plus, squadroning takes a fragile unit and gives absolutely everything that shoots at it Ap1. If a pair of meltaguns winds up next to the speeders (say, they were dropped in or flown in on raptors or driven over on bikes), a penetrating hit (which is pretty easy to get) destroys the speeder in a squad on a roll of 3+. Ouch.

Flavius Infernus wrote:How can it be a "gross overestimation" when I'm talking out of my own direct experience here? I'm not estimating, I'm recalling.

Lots of possible reasons why AV10 vehicles suffering from the squadron rule are being more survivable for you. Perhaps you're really lucky with them (or your opponents are always unlucky against them), or perhaps they're not doing as much damage as you think they are (so your opponents are justifiably ignoring them more, thus shooting them less, thus they're surviving longer), or perhaps you're playing opponents who don't know what autocannons are, or haven't figured out how to bring enough anti-tank weapons. Possibilities are limited only to the scope of human imagination here.

If, in your particular subjective data set, your squads of AV10 vehicles totally wreck your opponents army every time and are practically invincible, then good for you, but I'm going to need their objective issue of fragility resolved before I'd consider taking them outside of one or two builds.

Jihallah wrote:What are you going to purchase with your FA options?

Nothing? FA choices aren't mandatory.

Obviously it would sometimes make sense to take stuff here, but SM also has plenty fine options in elites and HS for support units.

Fetterkey wrote:

Ailaros wrote:For 115 points apiece, you can get 2x 5-man space marine squads with 2x multimeltas apiece (one with a signum). I can't think of another codex that can do anything even vaguely similar.

Well, Codex: Space Marines can also get a squadron of 2 Attack Bikes with multi-meltas for 100 points

Interesting. To be fair, they're only half as durable compared to devs (devs getting cover, attack bikes blowing themselves up inside it), or really, only a quarter (precisely because of their instant death liability, but, then, who really brings a lot of S10 outside of tau?). As Flavius notes, though, these are completely hidable behind other stuff and terrain, making them a pretty nifty looking counterattack option. Is it worth taking outside of gunlines/bike lists?

Ailaros wrote:Right, the point that joey is trying to make here is that if you have three individual speeders, you have to target them with three individual squads, soaking up more separate units worth of firepower, or taking longer. Most importantly, any amount of firepower that was overkill is simply lost.

With a squad of three, you can target it with one unit at a time until you're satisfied with the damage. It might take as many units, but it might not. Also, as Joey is noting, overkill isn't lost, it's rolled over. That 2x hydra squad on the other side of the board is going to put down is going to put down 3 penetrating hits, which means it's very possible to roll two vehicle destroyed results. On a single speeder, that extra result is lost. On a squad of speeders, that's two speeders down.

Plus, squadroning takes a fragile unit and gives absolutely everything that shoots at it Ap1. If a pair of meltaguns winds up next to the speeders (say, they were dropped in or flown in on raptors or driven over on bikes), a penetrating hit (which is pretty easy to get) destroys the speeder in a squad on a roll of 3+. Ouch.

In most tournaments and in most regular games, Kill Points are a secondary or tertiary objective in case of a draw. Having three seperate Land Speeders not only fills your Fast Attack slots, but gives a seperate Kill Point for each one, where as a Squadron only gives one when the last Speeder is downed, which isn't impossible, but unlikely during the course of the game (until turn 4-5) due to higher priorities Space Marines can field.

If you're fielding a Landspeeder Squadron and your enemy wastes an Alpha-Strike on them, you're better off.

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:How can it be a "gross overestimation" when I'm talking out of my own direct experience here? I'm not estimating, I'm recalling.

Lots of possible reasons why AV10 vehicles suffering from the squadron rule are being more survivable for you. Perhaps you're really lucky with them (or your opponents are always unlucky against them), or perhaps they're not doing as much damage as you think they are (so your opponents are justifiably ignoring them more, thus shooting them less, thus they're surviving longer), or perhaps you're playing opponents who don't know what autocannons are, or haven't figured out how to bring enough anti-tank weapons. Possibilities are limited only to the scope of human imagination here.

Or he could actually be good fielding them, but of course, it has to be the players he's playing against. They're all terrible.

Ailaros wrote:
Interesting. To be fair, they're only half as durable compared to devs (devs getting cover, attack bikes blowing themselves up inside it), or really, only a quarter (precisely because of their instant death liability, but, then, who really brings a lot of S10 outside of tau?). As Flavius notes, though, these are completely hidable behind other stuff and terrain, making them a pretty nifty looking counterattack option. Is it worth taking outside of gunlines/bike lists?

It's generally very easy to get cover for a unit of 2x attack bikes. One toe on one bike is all you need for a nice coversave. This is coversave edition after all. They do however count ID at T4, which is their biggest weakness. Compared to 2xmultimelta devs though, they are much better. 36/24" multimeltas with the ability to rapidly reposition are great. Static 24/12" multimeltas not so much.

Well I also play regularly *against* armies that have AV10 skimmer squadrons, so maybe I'm a really bad player since I also find it a pain to kill them with my shooty armies.

At Adepticon, for example, I drew the extreme Eldar AV10 opponent army--9 vypers and 9 warwalkers. My army was packing 7 multilasers, two battlecannons, two melta cannons, six heavy bolters, 9 heavy flamers and 25 meltaguns. Meltaguns massed at short range, were the only weapons able to wipe whole squadrons of AV 10 vehicles (and only with multiple volleys). All the long range shooting wasn't able to score a single KP against the squadrons that stood off at range in cover. Killed a few vehicles, but only managed two squadrons. The player--who was a really experienced player from Sweden and has been playing this army for awhile--said his army doesn't give up KPs easily because of the squadrons.

I don't know if there can be any objective proof. I think the only way to understand it is to actually try out the models on the table for awhile, instead of guessing based on the numbers in the book.

Also, attack bike can go to ground to get 3+ save against ID krak missiles. In squadron, this typically mean you will lose 1 instead of both. Combat tactics them back and move forward 15" next turn = pure gold.

KplKeegan wrote:If you're fielding a Landspeeder Squadron and your enemy wastes an Alpha-Strike on them, you're better off.

Really? 270 points lost to stray autocannon fire sounds like pretty expensive bait to me.

Of course, if you're saying that it would be better to ignore them and shoot at things that are a bigger threat, then 270 points is an awful lot of points to spend on a unit so crappy it's ignorable.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I don't know if there can be any objective proof.

I'm sorry you don't feel that you can be objective. When I have the exact same experiences as you've had perhaps I'll understand, but as I find the idea of playing the exact same players in the exact same circumstances with the exact same luck rather difficult, I don't know if that will ever come to pass.

Illumini wrote:It's generally very easy to get cover for a unit of 2x attack bikes. One toe on one bike is all you need for a nice coversave. This is coversave edition after all. They do however count ID at T4, which is their biggest weakness. Compared to 2xmultimelta devs though, they are much better. 36/24" multimeltas with the ability to rapidly reposition are great. Static 24/12" multimeltas not so much.

of COURSE they use the T4 for ID. In that case, this is much more of an issue as there's a lot of S8+ Ap3 or better stuff out there. I suppose that REALLY means that they'd be a counterstrike force only, as you'd need to keep them basically flat out of LOS. With a 24" melta threat range, that's a hell of a counterattacker, though.

You know, they actually strike me like guard rough riders. Fragile, cheap units that you put in reserve and have show up and attack anywhere on your half of the board. A nasty surprise for any charging land raider, for sure. I suppose with khan you could do some very unfortunate things to your opponents with a few pair of MM attack bikes...

One benifit to squadrons you have missed is that only 50% of the unit needs to be in cover to get a cover save.

Typhoon Speeders are also the perfect height to hide behind Rhinos(and similer height vehicles) and get cover saves while not giving the enemy a cover save.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:What are you going to purchase with your FA options?

Nothing? FA choices aren't mandatory.

Obviously it would sometimes make sense to take stuff here, but SM also has plenty fine options in elites and HS for support units.

Your HS and elites are full
You have 100p left
The Siren Song of the Typhoon begins...
When you make a shooty list, and you want to squeeze more shooty in... Typhoons

Try them!


There seems to be alot of hate for squadrons. I think they have their places. Speeders are a bit "eh" for squadrons, don't really need them but can be done.

I see your point Flavius. When you kill 2/3 vypers and that last bugger sits back at extreme range in LOS and you have to dedicate one or more units just to get rid of one gun so you can get a single measly kill point whilst the 9 warwalkers are pummeling you... it makes you shoot the warwalkers to get them to stop. Of course, that means that whilst your not taking as much damage from the opponent as a whole, your still missing out on those VP's off the Vyper squadron which you've already invested time and effort in trying to get. Do you go for the killpoint? or the rest of the army which is actually killing you? Anyone who can't see how your Swedish opponents squadrons made his army less vulnerable to KP's hasn't played someone who understands the list of pro's and con's that go with squadrons.

Jihallah wrote:Obviously it would sometimes make sense to take stuff here, but SM also has plenty fine options in elites and HS for support units.

Your HS and elites are full
You have 100p left
The Siren Song of the Typhoon begins...
When you make a shooty list, and you want to squeeze more shooty in... Typhoons

Try them!

Of course in a way the Squadron rules don't really hurt the speeders, they really can't get any more fragile.

Squadroning them also allows them to remain mobile in the event they don't get killed. If one or 2 get Stunned they can move and take cover while they recover from the effects.

Grey Templar wrote:Of course in a way the Squadron rules don't really hurt the speeders, they really can't get any more fragile.

Hah, touche.

Of course, now you're having to do things such as actually fear bolter fire. It's not just that it makes something flimsy a little flimsier - it makes it a whole new class of flimsy.

Fortunantly, Typhoons operate well out of bolter range. The only weapons that can be shot at them at similer ranges are things like Autocannons, Missiles, and Lascannons which will probably be shooting at your heavier vehicles or Transports.

Its all about synergy. You can't play Vanilla marines without it.

Grey Templar wrote:Fortunantly, Typhoons operate well out of bolter range.

Yeah, but those bolters can move too, and the board is only so big. Rhinos, bikes, and drop pods (not to mention deepstriking boltweapons like termies), even jump pack-armed models can get around. Perhaps a speeder can outrun an individual one of these, but they're not going to be able to outrun all of them in a limited playing space. That's what field position is all about.

Squadding them up gives you effectively open topped AV10 vehicles...

Grey Templar wrote:The only weapons that can be shot at them at similer ranges are things like Autocannons, Missiles, and Lascannons which will probably be shooting at your heavier vehicles or Transports.

Sure, I could see them as being much more useful in, say, a razor list.

I don't buy the "they'll be shooting at other stuff!" thing, though. Being so crappy that it's ignorable compared to better stuff doesn't seem like much of a selling point for me. If it's a threat, your opponents are shooting at very flimsy vehicles. If it's not a threat, what are you doing bringing non-threatening units?

Flavius knows whereof he speaks. I recommend that folks unconvinced re-read the rules for squadrons and try them out. They really are more durable against most things in this edition, particularly at standoff range in cover, as Typhoons nearly always are.

Ailaros wrote:

Jihallah wrote:There seems to be alot of hate for squadrons. I think they have their places. Speeders are a bit "eh" for squadrons, don't really need them but can be done.

Right, I'm also not against squads per se, but squadding does make things more fragile, so if you do it with an already very fragile vehicle...

...did you read flavius' account of playing against AV10 eldar?

So, the scenario, as I read it, was thus. Two light vehicle spam armies were engaged in relatively static gunline fire against each other. One player waited until his squadroned units got hurt in a KP game, and then hid the survivors. The other player was unable to do anything to finish off the stragglers. In the case you provided, the other player perhaps had the ability, but chose not to exercise it.

The reason I'm not convinced about speeders in this scenario is that there are so many things that could have been done to prevent it, that if any of them would have been done, the light vehicle squads would have been much less of a problem.

For example, the second person could have brought more long range killing power so that they actually killed the flimsy vehicle squads, rather than merely wounding them. The player could have focused the fire they had better. The player could have brought any of a staggering amount of movement options to track down the stragglers (or used the options he had - speeders can deepstrike), or had better field position so that the stragglers had few places (if any) to run to. Of course, this is all true only on KP missions as well.

What I see in this scenario is somebody taking a certain kind of list, and having the counter to it being AV10 vehicle spam, and rather than bringing a less rock-paper-scissors-able list, or adapting to what their opponent was doing, they just sat there and was frustrated by their opponent's movement.

In any case, this is still exactly one data point here, and it's not even well documented (we don't know what the relative luck between the two players was, or what the terrain was like, etc. etc.), and a single, subjective sample isn't a whole lot to go on. Plus, no matter what an experience may have looked like, it still doesn't address bigger issues, like the fact that speeders can't both shoot and get a free cover save, and that they're just AV10, and that squadding them makes them effectively open topped, and that it removes the inefficiency of overkill from your opponent's shooting, and, and...

I'm not saying that you can't be annoying with AV10 vehicles, and I'm not saying that smarter players can't be even more annoying with them. What I'm saying is that player skill can't be waved like a magic wand that makes liabilities built into the unit disappear into thin air. Remember, player skill cuts both ways. It makes no sense to say that you can do something and then deny that your opponent can undo it.

You haven't understood what was written. That's okay. You probably need to try it out.

Mannahnin wrote:You haven't understood what was written. That's okay. You probably need to try it out.

QFT =\

What is my own small subjective data set going to gain me that can't be articulated through objective means?

Perhaps if the single story so far were explained in more detail, or abstract arguments pulled from it. The only thing I've got to draw on here basically boils down to an "oh yeah? Well I had a game once..." anecdote.

Another note on that topic:

I played a mechork player once with my guard. Had a Manticore 2 Executioners 5 Chimeras and 2 AC-Sentinels. He had 9 Buggies, 6 Kans, 2 Battlewagons 2 Trukks.
It ended 2:1 on Killpoints in my favour... I shot the whole game with Multilasers and ACs vs his annoying Buggies, i didnt get a single squadron completely killed.
The reason was not considerable bad luck, the reason was the 4+ cover save and hit allocation. If he has 1 buggy with destroyed weapon, he will stack pens on him as long as I do enough glances to cover the healthy ones.

And AV10 with a 4+ cover save is quite durable. As the shooting player you have to get past 4 rolls: To hit, to penetrate, cover save and vehicle damage. So against AV10 squadron in cover you need 4 penetrating hits to kill one vehicle. Maybe you have BS3, so you will end up with 8 shots. S10... If you have S6 it is doubled up to 16 shots. So it will take you about 6-7 ACs to down a single speeder in a squadron which will be most likely the unimportant one and 6-7 more to down the second one. And if the opponent has 3 squadrons of 2 Landspeeders, you will need 42 acs in one turn, 21 acs in two turns,..7 ACs in 6 turns. If your army has 7 ACs they will need a whole game to get rid of 6 Landspeeders in cover. Given that the opponent is stupid enough to place them in a way all 7 ACs will see them for the entire game and those 7 ACs will stay unharmed in the course of the battle.

I would consider that quite tough.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I played a mechork player once with my guard. Had a Manticore 2 Executioners 5 Chimeras and 2 AC-Sentinels ... I shot the whole game with Multilasers and ACs vs his annoying Buggies, i didnt get a single squadron completely killed.

Right, but this is once again showing how a parking lot can struggle against a fast AV10 spam army. As mentioned, though, not all armies are parking lots, and not every army (including marines) can spam fast AV10 vehicles. Yes, you can bring 9 speeders, but then what does the rest of your list look like?

-Nazdreg- wrote:And AV10 with a 4+ cover save is quite durable.

So, two things. Firstly, if your opponent is SMFing for the 4+, you should thank him for shaking his vehicles for you. If your opponent is getting cover through other means, you can do a lot of things about that cover. Were we talking about infantry models, this would be a different story, but I can't imagine there are a lot of speeders hanging out in area terrain.

Secondly, if AV10 is so impervious to shooting, then why on earth would you ever take a speeder? If AV10 is capable of withstanding turn after turn of krak missile fire, well then what's the point of taking a speeder that isn't capable of doing more than shooting a couple of krak missiles? After all, that speeder really isn't doing any damage to what they're shooting at, if even squadroned AV10 is so impervious to this kind of shooting.

Are we arguing speeder squadrons or squadrons?
Whilst I'm for squadrons, I'm not so down with speeder squadrons. Not worth the spam. A typhoons survivability is a combination of is mobility, range and lack of threat- there are other more worthy targets getting stuck into your lines than that speeder sitting 48" away.

Speeders can get cover from behind Rhinos and Predators. having them pelt missiles from the safety of your gunline (since Vanilla Marines going very far beyond any objectives is crazy talk and heresy), and blow things up that are running at you. Not to mention the glorious ability to, in an emergency, move 12" and still beat the gak out of an infantry squad with 2 frag missiles and a heavy bolter.

Crazyterran wrote: Not to mention the glorious ability to, in an emergency, move 12" and still beat the gak out of an infantry squad with 2 frag missiles and a heavy bolter.

12"? I thought fast vehicles could only shoot one weapon while moving at cruising speed.

Jihallah wrote:Are we arguing speeder squadrons or squadrons?
Whilst I'm for squadrons, I'm not so down with speeder squadrons. Not worth the spam. A typhoons survivability is a combination of is mobility, range and lack of threat- there are other more worthy targets getting stuck into your lines than that speeder sitting 48" away.

Yeah, I agree with this. Squadrons perhaps, speeder squadrons, why bother?

I think the main question here boils down to two similar things.

- are missile launchers good at killing stuff? If they are, then your opponents are very likely to have some, and that means your speeders are toast because they're too fragile. If missile launchers aren't good at killing stuff, then why bother taking a unit with such worthless weapons?

- are land speeders a threat? If they are, then they're going to get shot at. If they're not, then why aren't you taking a unit capable of threatening stuff?

As a drop and pop suicide unit? Sure. As a "I can't figure out what to spend my last 90 points on?". Maybe, though I think I could find something better most of the time. As an AV10 heavy weapon platform in an army filled with AV11 heavy weapon plaforms? Why not?

Outside of this, though, the fragility:firepower and the fragility: cost ratios don't look good for the speeder. You've got to find some way of guaranteeing that you blow up a bunch of stuff before the speeder itself is blown up, which looks borderline at best, at least without deepstriking.

Other options have ways of fixing this. Predetors have much better armor. Attack bikes can be left off the board and then suddenly show up and shoot (much like deepstriking a speeder). Devastators can take extra bodies and can benefit from the much easier way that infantry models get cover saves. Unless you've got some solution, the speeder is just being a harassment unit that shows up, is very temporarily annoying, and is then swatted away. Why bother with this in an army that has so many other tougher options? With bother with harassment units at all in an SM army?

On a final point, I'm finding this "you need to experience to believe" a strange direction. And by strange, I mean religious, not only in pattern, but even in specific. I hear "You need to experience speeders to understand the impact they can have on your list", and it immediately recalls "You need to experience Jesus to understand the impact He can have on your life." Since when did the tactics board become mystical?

Ailaros wrote:

Crazyterran wrote: Not to mention the glorious ability to, in an emergency, move 12" and still beat the gak out of an infantry squad with 2 frag missiles and a heavy bolter.

12"? I thought fast vehicles could only shoot one weapon while moving at cruising speed.

Jihallah wrote:Are we arguing speeder squadrons or squadrons?
Whilst I'm for squadrons, I'm not so down with speeder squadrons. Not worth the spam. A typhoons survivability is a combination of is mobility, range and lack of threat- there are other more worthy targets getting stuck into your lines than that speeder sitting 48" away.

Yeah, I agree with this. Squadrons perhaps, speeder squadrons, why bother?

I think the main question here boils down to two similar things.

- are missile launchers good at killing stuff? If they are, then your opponents are very likely to have some, and that means your speeders are toast because they're too fragile. If missile launchers aren't good at killing stuff, then why bother taking a unit with such worthless weapons?

- are land speeders a threat? If they are, then they're going to get shot at. If they're not, then why aren't you taking a unit capable of threatening stuff?

As a drop and pop suicide unit? Sure. As a "I can't figure out what to spend my last 90 points on?". Maybe, though I think I could find something better most of the time. As an AV10 heavy weapon platform in an army filled with AV11 heavy weapon plaforms? Why not?

Outside of this, though, the fragility:firepower and the fragility: cost ratios don't look good for the speeder. You've got to find some way of guaranteeing that you blow up a bunch of stuff before the speeder itself is blown up, which looks borderline at best, at least without deepstriking.

Other options have ways of fixing this. Predetors have much better armor. Attack bikes can be left off the board and then suddenly show up and shoot (much like deepstriking a speeder). Devastators can take extra bodies and can benefit from the much easier way that infantry models get cover saves. Unless you've got some solution, the speeder is just being a harassment unit that shows up, is very temporarily annoying, and is then swatted away. Why bother with this in an army that has so many other tougher options? With bother with harassment units at all in an SM army?

On a final point, I'm finding this "you need to experience to believe" a strange direction. And by strange, I mean religious, not only in pattern, but even in specific. I hear "You need to experience speeders to understand the impact they can have on your list", and it immediately recalls "You need to experience Jesus to understand the impact He can have on your life." Since when did the tactics board become mystical?

Frag Missiles are S4, making them a defensive weapon. Fast vehicles make cruising speed combat speed, as you know, and you can fire all the defensive weapons you want at combat speed, as well as the main weapon, the Heavy BOlter.

Crazyterran wrote:Frag Missiles are S4, making them a defensive weapon.

Oh, right. Of course they are. This definitely fits the harassment bill. Hey! Look at me! I'm driving 12" in front of my stuff and shooting off fireworks and machine guns! Hey! Look at me! Look!

... paint them construction orange and give them blinking LEDs for greatest effect.

Still. It's a temporary nuisance, however otherwise really annoying it is.

Hey man, I've seen Frag Missiles do terrible, terrible damage.

And they don't necessarily have to move. It's just an option.

Crazyterran wrote:Hey man, I've seen Frag Missiles do terrible, terrible damage.

And I've seen page 12 of the rulebook where it says that you can spread out up to 2" and still be in coherency. Really makes it tough on a weapon with a 1.5" blast radius. I suppose you do get a bit of a boost with the two shots, thing, but if I can figure out how to come out of EML-spam WW squads with only light bruising, I've got to assume that at some point my opponents will figure out the same.

Sure, if you are shooting enemies thare are standing out in the open. I'd pelt things piled up in cover or those bastion things. But, I suppose you have a point.

Besides, one or two more wounds are still better than nothing eh? especially if you have to relocate in a hurry.

You know, I think all the talk on the last page is starting to convince me of something. Apart from the land raider (around which you can build a list), looking to FA and HS slots for support weapons is kind of "meh" in this codex.

I mean, why grouse over the durability issues of speeders when for the same price as two cyclone launchers and a couple of heavy bolters on speeders, you could take a single cyclone launcher and a bunch of storm bolters on a termie squad, which is going to be way harder to kill, more (or at best equally) mobile in early-mid game, and comes with power fists, and more options.

Likewise, why bother plinking with some devestators over here when I can drop pod a dreadnought behind their stuff and kill them over there? Why try to sneak on assault bikes for a little melta when I can drop pod in sternguard for a lot of melta?

It seems like the codex's real strengths is in its HQ, troops, and elites choices, and that HS and especially FA are really just a little extra hot sauce on the taco. You wouldn't mind making things spicier for free, but what you came for was the meat and pico in a pan-fried tortilla.

FA may be faster later into the game, but that's assuming that they survive that long, and they have to take a big cut in killing power to do it, while most HS slots seem to do little more than what can be accomplished otherwise in the troops choices, etc. Perhaps the reason why vanilla space marines are seen as less competitive is because they only have good toys in a single slot, and that what they really rely on is core units, so if you're used to toy-heavy lists, you're playing into the codex's weaknesses, rather than its strengths.

Squadron spam works, just not with all codices and definitely not with C:SM imho. A good example would be Kan wall with max squads of Kans and buggies. That's 18 vehicles in 6 squadrons, add deff dreads and the odd battlewagon or trukk and you're looking at 20+ vehicles in the 1500 - 1850 point range easily. Squadron rule drawbacks be damned, that's alot of AV to be taking down, most with a 4+ cover save.

I hear Eldar does it well also but I haven't the experience to comment.

Ailaros wrote:You know, I think all the talk on the last page is starting to convince me of something. Apart from the land raider (around which you can build a list), looking to FA and HS slots for support weapons is kind of "meh" in this codex.

I mean, why grouse over the durability issues of speeders when for the same price as two cyclone launchers and a couple of heavy bolters on speeders, you could take a single cyclone launcher and a bunch of storm bolters on a termie squad, which is going to be way harder to kill, more (or at best equally) mobile in early-mid game, and comes with power fists, and more options.

Likewise, why bother plinking with some devestators over here when I can drop pod a dreadnought behind their stuff and kill them over there? Why try to sneak on assault bikes for a little melta when I can drop pod in sternguard for a lot of melta?

It seems like the codex's real strengths is in its HQ, troops, and elites choices, and that HS and especially FA are really just a little extra hot sauce on the taco. You wouldn't mind making things spicier for free, but what you came for was the meat and pico in a pan-fried tortilla.

FA may be faster later into the game, but that's assuming that they survive that long, and they have to take a big cut in killing power to do it, while most HS slots seem to do little more than what can be accomplished otherwise in the troops choices, etc. Perhaps the reason why vanilla space marines are seen as less competitive is because they only have good toys in a single slot, and that what they really rely on is core units, so if you're used to toy-heavy lists, you're playing into the codex's weaknesses, rather than its strengths.

Because, our Elites choices are filled with Rifle Dreads, Hellfire Rounds... I mean, Sternguard, and Assault Terminators. Vanilla Terminators don't match up to those. And, suicide Ironclads can work to wipe out a tank... if their melta hits. Nothing ruins your day than that 1/3 chance rearing it's head. My favorite part of (Assault) Terminator squads are the Dedicated Transport Land Raider, which will give 0 KP if you blow up a Land Raider! It also allows you to have 4 Land Raiders, potentially...

Our only HQ worth a crap is the Librarian, for Null Zone. The only power I take other than Null Zone is the Avenger, since, if you aren't fighting something with the Invulnerable saves to make Null Zone worth it, it's a horde of things that need a flamer in the face.

A single Drop Pod is suicide. So, if you are dropping Sternguards or Dreadnoughts into a high value target, the next turn they die. Ironclads got it even more harsh, since they can't get tied into combat the turn they land.

Though, I suppose you could drop a Drop Pod infront of something that you want to slow down. since it has to go around that giant foot print. And you can always drop it empty. Might be worth looking into for a Rifle Dreadnought to do.

I think you should also consider that you only have 3 elite choices. When they're already full, what else would you get? Elite choices are prime in vanilla marines: dreadnoughts, sternguard, terminators.

And two typhoons with two cyclone MLs: 180 pts. Two cylclone MLs on a 10-man terminator squad: 460 pts. Even a termie squad with a cyclone ML is 230 points, and if you're aiming for bang for the buck that's two typhoons already plus 50 points.

Also, with the experience vs. theory thing: playing takes in the other variables that are hard to consider when just theoryhammering: your opponent's decisions, the terrain, the mission, etc. There's nothing mystical about it.

@crazyterran - but everything you just said about poor killing power and suicidality also applies to FA slots. If you're concerned that a dreadnought showing up out of a pod is relying on a few die rolls on the offense for something that's easily killed, then the same applies to speeders, etc.

heartserenade wrote:I think you should also consider that you only have 3 elite choices.

Between two HQ slots (which you can spend a lot of points on some pretty good characters for), three elites choices (which likewise, you can throw a LOT of points at if you want), and up to 6 troops choices (troops choices actually being rather good), I can't think of a time where I would be absolutely forced at gunpoint to pick something FA or HS, or utterly forgo the ability to field a competitive list.

If anything, your complaint about elites slots filling up too fast is exactly the point I was making - elites are what's really good about the codex.

I'm not sure, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Predators and Typhoons give 6 strength 8, 6 strength 7 and 27 strength 5 shots a turn for a princely 525 points. That's about a third of a 1500 point army. You have to pay another 410 points for your troops, perhaps a little more, and then you have about 500 odd points to spend on HQ and Elites. In a typical 1500 mech list, marines will have 3 armour 10, 3 armour 13, 2 armour 12 and 3 armour 11 vehicles.

It's armour saturation that keeps Land Speeders alive. Anti-tank weapons can't shoot everything, and Typhoons are less threatening than a Predator or Dreadnought. Those vehicles can sit in cover and are big enough to provide cover for the Speeder which can fire over them.

People are suggesting that you try the army because they're despairing at your inability to see that putting up an armour 10 vehicle in a vacuum and saying it will die has no relation to how it actually performs in an army.

No, Marines are not a top tier army, but that's because their troops are weaker compared to the present champions, Space Wolves and Blood Angels. Their Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support are still pretty good value and it's those that carry the army.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:I'm not sure, are you being deliberately obtuse?

I'm only obtuse if you ignore what I wrote not two hours ago...

Ailaros wrote: As an AV10 heavy weapon platform in an army filled with AV11 heavy weapon plaforms? Why not?

furthermore...

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:People are suggesting that you try the army because they're despairing at your inability to see that putting up an armour 10 vehicle in a vacuum and saying it will die has no relation to how it actually performs in an army.

It's not looking at it in a total vacuum that's the problem here. It's that...

Ailaros wrote:What I'm saying is that player skill can't be waved like a magic wand that makes liabilities built into the unit disappear into thin air. Remember, player skill cuts both ways. It makes no sense to say that you can do something and then deny that your opponent can undo it.

Anyways, enough with my words being ignored.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:No, Marines are not a top tier army, but that's because their troops are weaker compared to the present champions

Actually, I came to an opposite conclusion finally reading it. Yes. Other codexes have good troops choices, but tac squads only seem to look bad when you ignore the special rules (and cross-army synergy) that they have.

Ailaros wrote:
If anything, your complaint about elites slots filling up too fast is exactly the point I was making - elites are what's really good about the codex.

They are good. But you didn't answer the question: what if your elite choices are filled up? Or would you rather spend all of your points on Elite, Troops and HQ? If so, give a list of what you would consider spending all of your points on Elites on.

I wasn't really arguing in favour of speeders in general, I was arguing against them being completely fragile.

I am not very fond of missile launchers, they struggle too much with AV12 or better. Thats why I dont like typhoon speeders (which should be played very cautiously) so much. I think one with cyclone and multimelta and one with only heavy bolter in a squadron has some merits, being not too expensive for 2 mobile missile shots a turn with the option for a MM shot at close range and in some lists the deep strike suicide MM-speeder can be useful, but thats it. They are definitely not a must-have though.

I agree with you, elite choices are very good and should be maxed out. But I wouldnt bet on regular termies though. TH/SS is too cheap and efficient to not take them and sternguard and dreads are also too good.

Marines troops (tacs) however are just not so glorious. Combat squads and ATSKNF is their main strength, Combat tactics is very unreliable (you have to pass the sweep and you have to retreat out of escort range, which is difficult). Firepower is close to 0 as well as close combat impact compared to the other MEQ codizes. They can be useful in masses but if they have to actually contribute to the battle they are overchallenged.

Most of the time Marines fight with their elite part.

Ailaros wrote:I think the main question here boils down to two similar things.

- are missile launchers good at killing stuff? If they are, then your opponents are very likely to have some, and that means your speeders are toast because they're too fragile. If missile launchers aren't good at killing stuff, then why bother taking a unit with such worthless weapons?

- are land speeders a threat? If they are, then they're going to get shot at. If they're not, then why aren't you taking a unit capable of threatening stuff?

You are a mad man you are ><
1) yes. They are flexible too. They work fine against AV10-12. They can insta-gib T4 multiwound models. They can help with anti-infantry.
Yes my opponent is likely to have some (dependent on race but...), but there is a variety of units for them to shoot at, not just the speeder. And part of the beauty of the speeder is that using my mobility I can hide from key AT units.

2) yes, but how much of a threat? Whats more threatening, the units chewing chunks out of your army or the speeder pinging up transports? My plasma GH are going to chew tac squads up, but my speeders and preds and longfang unit (one's enough, innit?) are what's letting me chew those tac squads up by opening the rhino's and razorbacks.
So of course you want to limit my anti-mech power here, ya? So this is where using the mobility of the speeder to limit LOS comes in. By avoiding LOS to some AT units, you limit the choices your opponents have to hit your speeders. Then target saturation- You could put shots into my speeder or the rhino in midfield. You blow the rhino, you can hit the marines with armor ignoring firepower. You blow the speeder, you don't have to deal with 2 krak missiles or 2 frags and 3 HB rounds per turn. The damage potential is much higher in other units. And if you do hit my speeder and blow it, frankly I'd rather lose the speeder than the rhino, if I had a choice of vehicle blown (situational, but as a general rule those GH will do more damage over the course of the game than the speeders, and also cap points. GH win me games- speeders help GH)

Now go to the church of speeders and have a religious experience damnit (I liked that analogy )

I have to say that I find your fasination with many "subpar" units entertaining. However, looking at a codex, you can quickly be fooled by all the incredible options, but then in the end, it turns out that you can't make all those cool combos work because of pts. Why don't you try to make a list to see if your ideas really work out at say 1750pts? I think it would be interesting to see what you come up with

PS: If you dig the elite choices and dislike the heavy choices, you can take a master of the forge to move any dreadnought into heavy slots.

@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I agree, it looks on paper like AV 10 squadrons should be a really boneheaded move. That's why it's surprising to see how well they actually stand up against long-range AT fire in a vehicle-heavy environment. It's not intuitive.

Anyway I'm done arguing this. I miss the earlier, fun part of the thread where we were talking about the SM codex and not the wisdom of squadrons. Can we go back to that?

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I think it's quite humorous; him telling actual Space Marine players that their units they field are sub par while suggesting that the sub-par units in the Codex (Regular Terminators) are better. But I guess he knows more, without all the mystical, hand wavery, playing the army...

KplKeegan wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I think it's quite humorous; him telling actual Space Marine players that their units they field are sub par while suggesting that the sub-par units in the Codex (Regular Terminators) are better. But I guess he knows more, without all the mystical, hand wavery, playing the army...

Fine then, I'll bite back: as a BT player (as in, 70 points per Typhoon), I find that Land Speeders are every bit as fragile as Ailaros claims. If they're in range of anything, they're likely going to die.

That said, I still think they're decent, they add quite a bit of dakka to the army.

I guess I'll throw in that I sometimes use Chronos as a Vindi driver. Forces more shots at the tank to take off the gun but I can still ram with that nice AV13.

Also Cassius is a nice HQ choice for lower point games seeing that a capt would be more expensive for less gear.

The nice thing of the speeders is they fit into the fast attack slot.

A shooty C:SM list will consist of the following
* Dreads in Elite slot
* Razorbacks in Troops slot
* Predators in Heavy slot

This allows the FA slot to be used to bring more armor (albeit fragile) to the table.

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I agree, it looks on paper like AV 10 squadrons should be a really boneheaded move. That's why it's surprising to see how well they actually stand up against long-range AT fire in a vehicle-heavy environment. It's not intuitive.

Anyway I'm done arguing this. I miss the earlier, fun part of the thread where we were talking about the SM codex and not the wisdom of squadrons. Can we go back to that?

A multilas on a chimera can pop all three AV 10 vehicles in a single shot. Unlikely, but possible.
The fact is there's so many weapons that have the potential to score 2 or 3 damage results on an AV10 squadron that it's bound to happen sooner rather than later.
I have literally never had a squadron of AV12 or below that I didn't immediately regret taking.
For gaks and giggle, 3 Heavy Bolter HWTs fire at the speeders. 4.5 hit and 1.5 damage results. This means you're as likely to get 2 as you are to get 1. Not so bad you might think.
Until the other nine shoot.
Hell even a Punisher. 20 shots, 10 hits, 3.3 damage results. That's one each right there. Then the HBs, another 1.5. So now 1 of them has 2 and there's a 50% chance that two of them will.
Or deepstriking meltaguns. If they both hit, you're looking at two AP1 penetrations, spread out of course.
Or rapid-firing plasma guns. 4 hits, 2.6 damage results. That's one on each too.
These are just examples from the IG 'dex that will lay waste to AV10 squads. There are plenty of others in other codexes (devestors, dakka preds, hive guard to name a few).

Ailaros wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Well, it's 48" and 36" when you add in the bike's movement. Plus, outflanking means side and rear shots and you can always charge in with a power fist. right after. Seems nifty, even without also using the scout's ability to bring stuff in via teleporting.

Perhaps not the best unit in the world in all builds, but I'm still kind of surprised that I've basically never seen them before, especially since they seem generally better than regular SM bikes.

I'm not really familiar with bike units, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't firing a rapid fire weapon in the shooting phase prevent an assault the same turn?

Ricedaddy wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:Also Grenade Launchers are Str6 rapid fire, with the BS3 means 3 shots at 24" or 6 at 12" which isn't amazing tbh.

Well, it's 48" and 36" when you add in the bike's movement. Plus, outflanking means side and rear shots and you can always charge in with a power fist. right after. Seems nifty, even without also using the scout's ability to bring stuff in via teleporting.

Perhaps not the best unit in the world in all builds, but I'm still kind of surprised that I've basically never seen them before, especially since they seem generally better than regular SM bikes.

I'm not really familiar with bike units, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't firing a rapid fire weapon in the shooting phase prevent an assault the same turn?

They are relentless, allowing them to assault after firing rapid/heavy weapons

Bikes are relentless

* Edit :Illumini beat me to it

mrwhoop wrote:Also Cassius is a nice HQ choice for lower point games seeing that a capt would be more expensive for less gear.

Cassius is fantastically underrated for what's effectively the bastard child of a Chaplain, a Sternguard veteran, and a Plague Marine in an HQ slot for only 125 points. The only problem is that he really wants to be in an assault squad, which doesn't mesh well with his shooting. The best fit for him on the field is probably hijacking another character's tooled-up hybrid command squad or honor guard, and playing whatever role is appropriate as the situation demands. Unfortunately, this gets a little pricey on points, which offsets his initial low points cost.

Well I guess I should say what I field him with, a tac squad in a plain RB and a sarge with a power weapon. Ablative wounds for shooting and another power weapon for assaulting. Again at low point levels he's an easy HQ instead of a captain or Libby that may peril. Course if I really need the points than I drop him for the cheaper libby.

I guess I should also mention I sometimes like using a MotF as an HQ (not using 6 dreads) an assault squad and a TFC too. The dex has options though to be blunt I haven't used my Devs since I got them. A pred/vindi is cheaper and I guess I have LF envy...wait that came out wrong

Joey wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Ailaros:

Seriously, dude, with all due respect, I'm one of the posters here who actually reads your posts (and remembers what you wrote) because I learn useful stuff from you. But occasionally it seems like you get stuck arguing the way that things look like they should be, based on no experience.

I agree, it looks on paper like AV 10 squadrons should be a really boneheaded move. That's why it's surprising to see how well they actually stand up against long-range AT fire in a vehicle-heavy environment. It's not intuitive.

Anyway I'm done arguing this. I miss the earlier, fun part of the thread where we were talking about the SM codex and not the wisdom of squadrons. Can we go back to that?

A multilas on a chimera can pop all three AV 10 vehicles in a single shot. Unlikely, but possible.
The fact is there's so many weapons that have the potential to score 2 or 3 damage results on an AV10 squadron that it's bound to happen sooner rather than later.
I have literally never had a squadron of AV12 or below that I didn't immediately regret taking.
For gaks and giggle, 3 Heavy Bolter HWTs fire at the speeders. 4.5 hit and 1.5 damage results. This means you're as likely to get 2 as you are to get 1. Not so bad you might think.
Until the other nine shoot.
Hell even a Punisher. 20 shots, 10 hits, 3.3 damage results. That's one each right there. Then the HBs, another 1.5. So now 1 of them has 2 and there's a 50% chance that two of them will.
Or deepstriking meltaguns. If they both hit, you're looking at two AP1 penetrations, spread out of course.
Or rapid-firing plasma guns. 4 hits, 2.6 damage results. That's one on each too.
These are just examples from the IG 'dex that will lay waste to AV10 squads. There are plenty of others in other codexes (devestors, dakka preds, hive guard to name a few).

"Done arguing this" = Lalalala, can't hear you.

I actually put away my space marines for a while to focus on building up a guard (and now a chaos) army -- it's nice to go back and talk about the space marine codex.

One of the last things I was experimenting with before I stopped playing space marines was using both Khan and Pedro in a list (and using Khan's combat tactics rule), Khan + Pedro + assault terminators in a landraider outflanking is pretty hilarious.

Also, Command Squads w/ 4 special weapons are pretty nice close range fire support.

Ailaros -- It seems that at this point you've got a lot of opinions on the list overall -- care to post an 1850 space marine list? I agree with a lot of other posters here that our tactical squads really aren't the best part of our codex (for what they get, I think our tactical squads are too expensive) but I'd certainly like to see you build a list using lots of tactical marines.

Combat tactics has a secondary benefit:
Berserkers are about to assault: They shoot their pistols. If you take enough casualties, you choose to fail the morale test and run out of their charge range. Next turn you automatically regroup.

As a result, against SM's, good players will avoid shooting on the way in, so the side effect is you get shot less by assaulting units.

A lot of players blow that off as an unimportant beneft, but we're talking 10 BS4 pistol shots usually. (Sometimes worse) If you could mitigate 10 strength 4 attacks, you'd probably say this ability is pretty awesome...

Rhinos vs. droppods: Rhinos by themselves are pretty meh. However, they become annoyingly good at a certain point of field saturation. They are cheap, provide mobile cover, tank shocks, and potential harassment. A rhino that isn't dead can still contest an objective. A rhino at the end of the game is useful for denial...especially in kill points. Pick up the last guy of a dead unit and drive away where no one can reach the rhino or him. You just saved on kill points right there. Of course, this only works with field saturation...but you know what everybody has said about mech dominating this edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Land speeders are not fragile. My friend that plays eldar takes warwalkers and it's rare that they die. Why? Because only ranged weapons can hurt you. So guess what you kill first? The ranged weapons. Lascannons are actually pretty terrible at killing speeders in cover. Maybe your viewpoint is skewed because guard can take lots of ranged firepower...but most armies (including Tau) have limitations on how many ranged weapons they can take. As a reminder, in this game, melta is king. Melta is probably not going to ever be in range to kill landspeeders, and even if it is, odds are you'll have a cover save. This is why mech is so dominant in this edition.

If you take pot shots at a vehicle squadron, you'll get a hit here or there. The SM player just dumps all the damage results on one speeder. It's fricking annoying when that happens.

Oh, lastly, you're misrepresenting stubborn a little bit. If you take Pedro Kantor, you get his +1 attack bubble, scoring sternguard, and stubborn in place of combat tactics. Sternguard with pedro nearby are 3 base attacks and 4 on the charge...like khorne marines. Big picture, you're not trading combat tactics for only stubborn.

I am pro scouts. . .

AKA, Scout bikes are cheap, can carry homing beacons, and infiltrate, just like chosen Chaos.

Basic marine scouts did get nurfed with there BS 3 WS 3 but still fun.

Combat squads are rock tactics as heavy stays and CC leaves. For scouts it means snipers/ bolters stay CC leaves in storm or on a different infiltrate location.

Bla bla bla you know this already, you read the book, Talion is worth it for a ten man squad and with a techmarine save he is pimptastic

So, calls for a list? Here are a couple of 1500 pointers that immediately popped out at me:

Cato Sicarius

Dreadnought, assault cannon, drop pod deathwind
Dreadnought, assault cannon, drop pod, deathwind
Dreadnought, multimelta, locator beacon

10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod, locator beacon
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod, deathwind
10x tac squad, MM, plasma gun, combi-plasma, power fist, drop pod, deathwind, locator beacon

Or...

Khan (with moondrakken)
Command squad - bikes, 2x meltaguns, champion, storm shield

10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM

2x attack bike squad, 2x MM
2x attack bike squad, 2x MM

or something. Both of these rock the low-model count, extreme force concentratability angle. Not unlike...

Master of the Forge

10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist

Land raider, multimelta, extra armor
Land raider, multimelta, extra armor
Land raider

All of these are pretty rough drafts, but you get the gist. How to upgrade them to 1850 is rather obvious (another tac squad/upgrades for HQ for the pod list, more bikes for the bike list, a better HQ for the raider list, etc.)

Obviously a razorspam list popped out as well, but it's pretty obvious what one of those should look like.

In any case, it struck me that there are several possible good builds for marines, rather than basically just the one everyone else seems to go for.

Ailaros wrote:So, calls for a list? Here are a couple of 1500 pointers that immediately popped out at me:

Cato Sicarius

Dreadnought, assault cannon, drop pod deathwind
Dreadnought, assault cannon, drop pod, deathwind
Dreadnought, multimelta, locator beacon

10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod, locator beacon
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, combi-melta, power fist, drop pod, deathwind
10x tac squad, MM, plasma gun, combi-plasma, power fist, drop pod, deathwind, locator beacon

Or...

Khan (with moondrakken)
Command squad - bikes, 2x meltaguns, champion, storm shield

10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM

2x attack bike squad, 2x MM
2x attack bike squad, 2x MM

or something. Both of these rock the low-model count, extreme force concentratability angle. Not unlike...

Master of the Forge

10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist
10x tac squad, MM, Meltagun, power fist

Land raider, multimelta, extra armor
Land raider, multimelta, extra armor
Land raider

All of these are pretty rough drafts, but you get the gist. How to upgrade them to 1850 is rather obvious (another tac squad/upgrades for HQ for the pod list, more bikes for the bike list, a better HQ for the raider list, etc.)

Obviously a razorspam list popped out as well, but it's pretty obvious what one of those should look like.

In any case, it struck me that there are several possible good builds for marines, rather than basically just the one everyone else seems to go for.

I like the second list a lot. As for the first list, I guess it comes down to how you'd play it -- my concern is that an army with decent assault (say, space wolves with thunderwolf calvery) might give it a lot of trouble.

Ailaros wrote:Khan (with moondrakken)
Command squad - bikes, 2x meltaguns, champion, storm shield

10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM
10x bike squad, 2x meltas, attack bike with MM

2x attack bike squad, 2x MM
2x attack bike squad, 2x MM
or something. Both of these rock the low-model count, extreme force concentratability angle. Not unlike...

Good first stab at a bike list. I don't think there are 10 man bike squads though. The biggest is 8 + MM bike for a total of 10 marines, with 9 models on the board.

Bikes are fun armies. I usually bring more long range firepower in mine, as I found that the list you showed above has a footprint problem.

So, any of these list would have trouble if you had to play on your opponent's terms. Thankfully drop pods, outflanking bikes, and assault ramp land raiders seriously reduce this. They're definitely "on your terms" kinds of armies.

In this case, if there's a nasty CC unit, you just don't drop or drive near it. Conversely, you could focus your killing power on it and eliminate it before it becomes a real threat. Death company in a stormraven may look scary, but if you're able to show up and shoot your ENTIRE ARMY at it, the remnants certainly won't be. Plus, in the case of the bikes, you could basically always make sure that, unless they have jump packs of their own, they'll always be just out of range of close combat.

Also, all three armies can use CTATSNKF.

labmouse42 wrote:The biggest is 8 + MM bike for a total of 10 marines, with 9 models on the board.

oops as mentioned, first time reading it.

On the plus side, that means 150 extra points! another attack bike squad and some decent upgrades for the command squad.

Bike armies take an extra advantage of Combat Tactics. Since your falling back 3d6", its much easier to break out of consolidation range. Your average fallback will be 10.5 inches to your opponents 3.5 inch consolidation.

I use this quite often in my bike army games, and find it very effective.
One note though, if you take Kahn, you lose the combat tactics. That's a pretty significant hit.

Oh, right. Replace him with a cap on a bike then.

Technically it is still 10-man because there are two marines on each attack bike.

Captains on a bike are cheaper than Khan, too.

Bike Captain - Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Bike, Artificer Armor - 195

Khan - Moondrakken - 205

For 10 less points, you get 2+/3++. Lose ID on your power weapon, but instead you get S6.

EDIT:

If you want to make it a bit more expensive, you can also throw on a melta bomb and hellfire rounds, to make him on his bike even more 'fun' for the enemy. (it'd make it 210 pts, only 5 more than Khan.)

I think this is where I would disagree with the attack bikes in your list. I prefer to run my bike lists with:

Captain not Khan
5-6 marine bike squads (w 2 MG or PG and 1 AB wMM or HB respectively)
Land speeders

I completely understand your absolute hatred for speeders. However, in this list, they complement the bikes much better than a predator or devastator squad would. The name of this game is mobility and that is where the speeders excel.

I am still working on my white scars army, but I quickly found out that I prefer the captain over Khan. While outflanking and his special rules for his unit are nice, for 195 points, I can get a captain, bike, relic blade, artificer armor, and storm shield. That is a pretty nasty 2+/3+ IC floating around. And, the combat tactics is huge. While it helps in CC, falling back in your opponents shooting phase and denying the assault is too much to pass up. Especially in an army that is focused on picking and choosing which battles it wants to get sucked into.

You have made it obviously clear that you prefer heavily armored vehicles. That is great and there is nothing wrong with it. But, for those of whose who choose to play themed or fluff based armies, Land Speeders and Land Speeder squadrons have their place.

labmouse42 wrote:Bike armies take an extra advantage of Combat Tactics. Since your falling back 3d6", its much easier to break out of consolidation range. Your average fallback will be 10.5 inches to your opponents 3.5 inch consolidation.

I use this quite often in my bike army games, and find it very effective.
One note though, if you take Kahn, you lose the combat tactics. That's a pretty significant hit.

And the average chance of breaking out of escort range on 3d6 is 66.44% - far better than trying it on foot. Having said that, bike squads are expensive, and usually are taken in smaller sizes, so getting one smashed or shot up badly enough to even have to take the morale test is already a fairly massive loss to you in terms of model count and force proportion. It's tempting to use relentless to double-tap with TL bolters, charge a unit, and hope to CT out next turn rather than eat the charge yourself, but you're probably better served to instead move back outside of 12" and just take a single shot from a safe range.

Crazyterran wrote:
EDIT:

If you want to make it a bit more expensive, you can also throw on a melta bomb and hellfire rounds, to make him on his bike even more 'fun' for the enemy. (it'd make it 210 pts, only 5 more than Khan.)

I want to toy around with auxilliary grenade launcher for my captain. It can fire with your bolters and is only 10 (15?) points?

Creeperman wrote:And the average chance of breaking out of escort range on 3d6 is 66.44% - far better than trying it on foot. Having said that, bike squads are expensive, and usually are taken in smaller sizes, so getting one smashed or shot up badly enough to even have to take the morale test is already a fairly massive loss to you in terms of model count and force proportion. It's tempting to use relentless to double-tap with TL bolters, charge a unit, and hope to CT out next turn rather than eat the charge yourself, but you're probably better served to instead move back outside of 12" and just take a single shot from a safe range.

Creeperman -- this is where theoryhammer and playhammer diverge. I have played a bike army for over 2 years now and understand the synergy very well.

Sitting back and plinking away over 12" of range just does not bring enough firepower to bear to justify the cost of the bikes. I tried this strategy when I started my bike list and found few instances where it was effective. The best way to describe this would be "In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice, there is"

Bikes real strength comes when you are within 12" and double tapping on bolters and plasma guns. I field my squads 6 bikes strong, with 2 PG and 1 MM each, giving each squad 5 AP2/1 shots and 8 TL bolter dice. I play my bikes in pairs so I use 2 of such squads on one target. Often I find there wlll be 1 or 2 models left in the target, and I assault them to 'seal the deal' with PF sergeants.
This method of playing bikes is an aggressive way of play. You move forward, hammer your target, and then move out quickly. The goal is to be turbo-boosting every turn your not 'sealing the deal'. After much playtesting, I have found this to be the most effective method of playing bikes.

I go into more detail in a post here. I will add a strategy section when I get some spare time this week.

Wait, Dedicated Transports give KPs?

I've been wrong all along?

Oh nooooo.

Also, I might use some of that when I make my own biker army. 6th Company Ultramarines, goooo!

Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that off KP statement.

As for the bikes, they actually remind me of mechvets for guard. 2 special weapons and a heavy that can move 12" and still fire. That gives plasma guns an awful lot of reach. I suppose in order to get the absolute most out of bikes, your strategy needs to be to attack somewhere and then have your opponent react, and then have you attack somewhere completely different, in a place where your opponents' reaction opened up weaknesses.

As for attack bikes vs. speeders in a bike list, yeah, speeders would work fine (especially a drop and pop type), but in this case speeders and attack bikes are so very similar, and one of them is WAY fluffier in an all-bike army than the other...

Also, thinking back on the pod list, it would be entirely possible at 1850 to have 5 drop podding tooled up tac squads along with a three dropping dreads and cato. Three dreads and 50 battle brothers constitutes a power armor foot horde in my book. A foot horde that can teleport onto the battlefield in a massive alpha strike...

<text redacted; if you have to resort to "fixing" other posters' remarks, it's a good sign that your argument is flawed, and you're about to break one of Dakka's posting rules; don't do it again. --Janthkin>

labmouse42 wrote:Creeperman -- this is where theoryhammer and playhammer diverge. I have played a bike army for over 2 years now and understand the synergy very well.

Sitting back and plinking away over 12" of range just does not bring enough firepower to bear to justify the cost of the bikes. I tried this strategy when I started my bike list and found few instances where it was effective. The best way to describe this would be "In theory, there is no difference between practice and theory. In practice, there is"

Bikes real strength comes when you are within 12" and double tapping on bolters and plasma guns. I field my squads 6 bikes strong, with 2 PG and 1 MM each, giving each squad 5 AP2/1 shots and 8 TL bolter dice. I play my bikes in pairs so I use 2 of such squads on one target. Often I find there wlll be 1 or 2 models left in the target, and I assault them to 'seal the deal' with PF sergeants.
This method of playing bikes is an aggressive way of play. You move forward, hammer your target, and then move out quickly. The goal is to be turbo-boosting every turn your not 'sealing the deal'. After much playtesting, I have found this to be the most effective method of playing bikes.

I go into more detail in a post here. I will add a strategy section when I get some spare time this week.

I will concede that there are times to sound the charge and go for broke with bikes, but you have to be careful with it. Point-for-point, each biker lost is about a 40 point deficit since you have very few bullet-catchers to soak up AP3 or power wounds, and may be forced to take special weapon casualties early on. I would never throw a 245-point biker squad like the one you described into an equal value of, say, Chaos Marines because they'd bounce a fair number of bolter and CC wounds and bury me in return CC attacks due to greater numbers. Having said that, if I had two such squads to send I would expect better results, but that would be true of almost any 2:1 point ratio matchup, and isn't really indicative of any unit superiority save simple attrition.

I shot Abaddon to death the other day. Well down to his last wound before another player rolled up with Mephiston and plasma pistolled him to death. So many ones.

Creeperman wrote:I would never throw a 245-point biker squad like the one you described into an equal value of, say, Chaos Marines because they'd bounce a fair number of bolter and CC wounds and bury me in return CC attacks due to greater numbers. Having said that, if I had two such squads to send I would expect better results, but that would be true of almost any 2:1 point ratio matchup, and isn't really indicative of any unit superiority save simple attrition.

* In the first case, the real difference is if the CSM has a PF or not. T5/3+ save is surprisingly hard to deal with. Even with the extra attack, each CSM attack has a 1/18 chance of actually wounding a biker. Given that the CSM probably lost 4 models from the shooting, they don't really have enough attacks to bring down the bikes unless they have a PF. Either way though, it bogs down the bikes, which is not what you want as a bike army.

* The methodology of how you can footprint bikes, in addition to their movement capacity is what makes getting 2:1 ratios so easy. Take the picture below. I had the capacity to easily bring 4 squads of special/heavy weapons within range of that stormchicken without breaking a sweat. The key is the congo-line, as it maximizes your ability to deliver output without leaving yourself vulnerable for templates.


* As previously mentioned, if your not 'sealing the deal' with a bike army, you should be spending every turn turbo-boosting. The fact that opponents can take their long fangs and target your bikes can be very dangerous if your not getting a good cover save. Getting that 3+ cover save means that your much more resilient to the long fangs. This helps to mitigate the effects of long range heavy weapons. The painful exception to this are scatter laser war walkers and riflemen dreads (psydreads or regular), as they do the job through sheer volume of required saves.

* One other thing the bikes have to help make them more durable is the extra wound on the MM bike. Any wound that wont ID the bike should go on the attack bike if its uninjured. This gives your 6 man squad a total of 7 wounds. At a T5, I believe this is just as durable vs bolter fire as 10 T4 marines. (And less durable vs psycannons and more durable vs STR 3)

labmouse42 wrote:

Classy.

I'm still not 100% on board with bikes, personally, but I do have extra props for a person who can field a competitive army that looks so damn fine on the table. In this case it's like

Him: Yes, well I brought a carefully balanced GK list that was specifically designed to-

You: I've got 40 bikes. Your argument is invalid. BIKESMASH!

Creeperman wrote:Point-for-point, each biker lost is about a 40 point deficit ... if I had two such squads to send I would expect better results, but that would be true of almost any 2:1 point ratio matchup, and isn't really indicative of any unit superiority save simple attrition.

As mentioned, bikes are a force concentration army. The point isn't that bikes are good in a 1v1 fair fight. The point is that bikes are fast enough to make sure that it's never a fair fight. A pair of 1v1's quickly becomes a 2v1 with the opponent's other unit left to twist. If a bike player is always fighting fair fights, they're doing something wrong.

Jihallah wrote: I want to vs some of those 1500p lists
So I can dismantle them and tell you how many Typhoons to take...

A game featuring a fast, speeder-heavy SM army against a fast all-bike SM army would be awesome. The only marine v. marine game that I think could be cooler would be a drop pod v. drop pod game. One huge scrum in the middle, drop pods raining down everywhere, an utter orgy of chaos and violence. I don't think it would even matter who won, it would just be too cool to watch.

labmouse42 wrote:*In the first case, the real difference is if the CSM has a PF or not. T5/3+ save is surprisingly hard to deal with. Even with the extra attack, each CSM attack has a 1/18 chance of actually wounding a biker. Given that the CSM probably lost 4 models from the shooting, they don't really have enough attacks to bring down the bikes unless they have a PF. Either way though, it bogs down the bikes, which is not what you want as a bike army.

* The methodology of how you can footprint bikes, in addition to their movement capacity is what makes getting 2:1 ratios so easy. Take the picture below. I had the capacity to easily bring 4 squads of special/heavy weapons within range of that stormchicken without breaking a sweat. The key is the congo-line, as it maximizes your ability to deliver output without leaving yourself vulnerable for templates.

I'm not sure I can remember the last time I saw a marine squad without a fist. Regardless, my point was made. C:SM bikes are shooting units (excepting of course tooled-up command squads), and cannot afford to carelessly charge into bad matchups. Creating good matchups is the strength of most fast-attack units in general, and these should of course be exploited ruthlessly.

labmouse42 wrote:* As previously mentioned, if your not 'sealing the deal' with a bike army, you should be spending every turn turbo-boosting. The fact that opponents can take their long fangs and target your bikes can be very dangerous if your not getting a good cover save. Getting that 3+ cover save means that your much more resilient to the long fangs. This helps to mitigate the effects of long range heavy weapons. The painful exception to this are scatter laser war walkers and riflemen dreads (psydreads or regular), as they do the job through sheer volume of required saves.

This is something else I'm going to (conditionally) quibble with. While you're correct that you want to spend most of your time turbo-boosting or in the (relative) safety of a lopsided assault, there are some circumstances which warrant standing off and blazing away instead, such as if difficult terrain separates you and a dangerous assault unit or in the case of a unit with the slow and purposeless rule. Whether or not to do this of course depends on tactical positioning and the overall situation.

labmouse42 wrote:* One other thing the bikes have to help make them more durable is the extra wound on the MM bike. Any wound that wont ID the bike should go on the attack bike if its uninjured. This gives your 6 man squad a total of 7 wounds. At a T5, I believe this is just as durable vs bolter fire as 10 T4 marines. (And less durable vs psycannons and more durable vs STR 3)

Wound allocation is one of the finer points of 5th edition gameplay, but it's a shame codex marines have so few multi-wound units capable of doing it. Attack bike squadrons can do this as well, especially if you attach a master of the forge with bike and a conversion beamer. With proper targeting and congo-lining, you can even get to use his S10 AP1 blast with the other weapons from the squad.

Incidentally, that's a nice army you have there. I've only got about half my bikes ready now (stupid Forge World toys, stop stealing my attention!) but I'm hoping to get the rest up and running in the next month or two.

Creeperman wrote:C:SM bikes are shooting units (excepting of course tooled-up command squads), and cannot afford to carelessly charge into bad matchups.

True, but I'd just note two things.

Firstly, bikes are fast enough to avoid most bad matchups in close combat. If one is sprung on them, that's what combat tactics are for.

Secondly, bikes may be better at shooting, but they're not BAD at close combat. Compared to death company? Sure, but compared to an awful lot of stuff out there, from GEq squads, to wounded MCs and termies, to stationary or slow-moving vehicles, there's a lot that a bike squad with a fist can threaten. This is especially true given the fact that you can shoot all your bolters, plasma guns, and multimeltas and STILL charge in. A couple of squads of bikes focus firing on a single unit and then charging in is going to be pretty tough for most individual units to resist.

as a longtime competitive marine player I must complement you understanding how important combat tactics are. I often see people not use it and so ready to replace it with a hero.

I have won so many games VS heavy close combat armies because I feed them a tactical squad to take their hits fall back and wipe them off the table with sheer rapid firing units. sternguard were always getting the job done. I fire the 2+ wound round about 90% of the time it never fails me. I don't give a damn if you even have a 2+ save when you're taking 12-15 armor saves you're going to fail a few.

Bikes are awesome I like to use them in a 2 or 3 hit combo. thunder wolves? ok i'll just rapid fire everything i can then assault you with 2 squads of bikes with my captain. pretty much always gets the job done.

I am a big fan of assault marines. they are so cheap and underestimated. I use them as small assassin squads for tanks or to assist bikes in close combat.
125 points buys you 5 assault marines with a power fist? yes please. people ignore them and then OH WHATS THAT?!?1 I AM FLYING OVER THIS WALL TO PUNCH YOUR TANK IN THE BACK WITH A POWER FIST?!??!! but you were to busy staring at my bikes and tanks?!?! Problem? *troll face*

I have turned many tanks inside out with a small group of 5 assault marines. and they have done very well to assist bike in assault combos. along with being a cheap safety net to catch fast targets trying to harm my objective holders. it frees my bikes up to do other jobs

GamzaTheChaos wrote:as a longtime competitive marine player I must complement you understanding how important combat tactics are. I often see people not use it and so ready to replace it with a hero.

I have won so many games VS heavy close combat armies because I feed them a tactical squad to take their hits fall back and wipe them off the table with sheer rapid firing units. sternguard were always getting the job done. I fire the 2+ wound round about 90% of the time it never fails me. I don't give a damn if you even have a 2+ save when you're taking 12-15 armor saves you're going to fail a few.

Bikes are awesome I like to use them in a 2 or 3 hit combo. thunder wolves? ok i'll just rapid fire everything i can then assault you with 2 squads of bikes with my captain. pretty much always gets the job done.

I am a big fan of assault marines. they are so cheap and underestimated. I use them as small assassin squads for tanks or to assist bikes in close combat.
125 points buys you 5 assault marines with a power fist? yes please. people ignore them and then OH WHATS THAT?!?1 I AM FLYING OVER THIS WALL TO PUNCH YOUR TANK IN THE BACK WITH A POWER FIST?!??!! but you were to busy staring at my bikes and tanks?!?! Problem? *troll face*

I have turned many tanks inside out with a small group of 5 assault marines. and they have done very well to assist bike in assault combos. along with being a cheap safety net to catch fast targets trying to harm my objective holders. it frees my bikes up to do other jobs

Interesting use for Assault Marines. I suppose it'd be better than a melta bomb, considering you get 3 attacks on the charge instead of 1.

Do you consider taking them with flamers, or just a cheap 5 man squad for some tank assassinations?

I just take a fist. if I take a weapon I actually take the plasma pistol. I was able to shoot side/back armor of a few tanks and cause good damage if I was out of assault range. or to simply shoot it then assault if it didn't kill it.

Hey Gamza the Chaos. . . Are you the guy that made those You Tube Videos on Marine Tactics?

I watched the ones on bikes. . . I have about 14 that are not completely painted, but someday I will try this all bike attack.

Creeperman wrote: C:SM bikes are shooting units (excepting of course tooled-up command squads), and cannot afford to carelessly charge into bad matchups. Creating good matchups is the strength of most fast-attack units in general, and these should of course be exploited ruthlessly.

Agreed. When you assault, you should be assaulting the 1-2 models that survived your torrent of fire. The majority of a bike army's power comes from shooting, not assault.

Creeperman wrote: t, there are some circumstances which warrant standing off and blazing away instead, such as if difficult terrain separates you and a dangerous assault unit or in the case of a unit with the slow and purposeless rule.

Yes, there will be times when you want to sit at 20" away and shoot your guns We should always keep our tactics flexable and be willing to do whatever suits the need best. I've sat back and plinked away at death company before when the only threats to my bikes were things that I still got cover saves from.

Creeperman wrote:Wound allocation is one of the finer points of 5th edition gameplay,

Even normal wound allocation helps. My standard bike squads have the following allocations
* Sergeant
* 2 special weapons
* 2 bullet catchers
* 1 MM bike.
If my squad is hit by 8 wounds, I can allocate in the following way. Lets say one of those shots is an AP2 shot that I cannot save from.
* Sergeant (1)
* 2 special weapons (1)
* 2 bullet catchers (2 each, plus AP2 shot goes here)
* 1 MM bike. (1)
After I am forced to wrap around, I then put the wounds back onto the bullet catchers. This increases the chance of the valuable weapons surviving. This also helps to protect my squad, because it limits the chances I will have a completely crappy roll by isolating each of the wound groups into batches. In this example, if I crapped out and failed all 3 saves to the bullet catchers I would only lose the 1 guy -- the other already being dead from the LC shot.
While its not nearly as effective as nob bikers, the wound allocation helps this kind of a squad quite well.

Creeperman wrote:Incidentally, that's a nice army you have there

Thanks. I put a lot of work into it. Marine bike armies are very fun to play, stylish on the board, and take people by surprise at how fast and durable they are.
Bikes are a harder army to play with the surge of GK. GK bring a lot of high AP, high STR shots which are very effective vs bikes. As such, when I am bringing my bikes to play lately I am changing up my strategy a little bit. I've been going back to using an empty LR redeemer for mobile cover, and bare bones predators so they can move and shoot with my army. I've been dropping the speeders, and have been thinking of beefing up my squads to 7 each. Riflemen dreads, while not psydreads, are still gold for cracking AV 10/11.

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:Hey Gamza the Chaos. . . Are you the guy that made those You Tube Videos on Marine Tactics?

I watched the ones on bikes. . . I have about 14 that are not completely painted, but someday I will try this all bike attack.

Indeed sir I am. I have over 100 videos on youtube . ty for watching!

So, I just went to your youtube channel, and your video on assault marines highlights exactly why I wouldn't take them. As you note, against mech armies, they're really not that useful, what with being unable to take special weapons, and against armies that are good in CC, you're not going to want to charge them in because they're basically just regular marines in CC. You mention gunlines, but betray a slight misunderstanding of them. A guard army isnt' going to be powerless - it's going to wipe them out with artillery before they make it over, or they're going to have power blobs which will just straight up beat assault marines. You mention the stats being in the assault marine's favor, but you forgot to mention the fact that guardsmen have stubborn, rerollable morale power weapons hidden ranks deep therewithin.

If killing power isn't their thing, that means that they can only fill the speedbump role you mention - flying in front of stuff and stealing charges. This is a neat ability, but 125 points for a throwaway speed bump is kind of steep. Plus you could have instead spent those points on something with killing power to make it so that even if the tac squads don't have bubble wrap, what is hitting them is now weakened enough to handle them.

I agree that jump packs can lead themselves to some shenanigans, and they easily look scarier than is merited. The problem is that what they gain in mobility, they seriously lose in killing power, making them no more than a harassment unit.

Yes, you can fly over terrain and punch a transport to death (unless it moves around a lot prior), but that's not having all that much of an impact. If you want to have a defensive unit that can react to things attacking tac squads, this is probably best done by just practicing good force concentration in the first place.

I have had a chance to play guard. blob guard and mech. and have gone VS a few guard armies I agree these guys will get destroyed vs blob. but if I was throwing them at blobs that would be silly. I would however throw them at vets HQs or anything else. I simply go on what has worked for me. and 125 points is cheap in a space marine world. mobility means more than killing power to me because I can easily combine them with the speed of other units to create a multi assault that takes down heavy targets.

the lack of melta guns does hurt a little.

I feel flexibility with speed will always win over raw killing power. but that has been my personal experience.


ALSO! I should add I always like playing discarded units so I try to focus on positive means to apply them. this for reasons why I played 4 Russ tanks in the tournament rather than spamming chimeras. out of like 6-10 guard players that were there I was the ONLY person to have a russ. everything else was standard hydras and chimeras etc lol.

so that's why you you will rarely see me dismissing units people dismiss

Well, but the only point of mobility is the ability to apply killing power better. The mobility is the multiplier here, but the base killing power is so poor that you're kind of stuck with nothing more than a harassment unit, hoping that your opponent will present you with some weak targets to bully.

I suppose that it's nearly the cheapest way to field a single power fist, but I still question how much this squad is really going to accomplish other than being annoying, especially since the range of targets it can threaten is so tragically narrow.

Ailaros wrote:Well, but the only point of mobility is the ability to apply killing power better. The mobility is the multiplier here, but the base killing power is so poor that you're kind of stuck with nothing more than a harassment unit, hoping that your opponent will present you with some weak targets to bully.

I suppose that it's nearly the cheapest way to field a single power fist, but I still question how much this squad is really going to accomplish other than being annoying, especially since the range of targets it can threaten is so tragically narrow.

Well I would argue speed is more than the ability to apply killing power but with that speed allows multi assaults which is applying killing power imo lol.
I just enjoy giving chances to units that are often looked over and I have found them to preform well when applied realistically.

I run Dark Angels, Ravenwing bikes are more expensive than regular Space Marine BIkes and have a few extra perks but the two squads in my army are some of the most valuable units I've got. They're versatile enough to take on tanks with their supply of melta weaponry, snipe at isolated infantry units with twin bolters, charge and pin units for the Deathwing follow-up charge, run rings around the enemy...

Regular Bikes are quick, tough, and have the ability to deliver two meltaguns and a multi-melta into the midst of the enemy much more quickly than a Rhino-mounted squad. They're expensive, but if you use them carefully they are definitely worth it.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:as a longtime competitive marine player I must complement you understanding how important combat tactics are. I often see people not use it and so ready to replace it with a hero.

Pfffffffft clearly you don't understand the power of Vulkan. Have you read his special rule?
(Come on, we all know some tweaker is going to pop up and say it. I'd rather have it put out there in sarcasm )
Combat tactics is the real misunderstood bastard child of C:SM. Like when people compare GH to tac marines- "what good is combat tactics compared to being better in melee?"
f-f-f-f-facepalm


Also I semi agree on the assault marines. I use raptors in a similar fashion. I get meltaguns though. I think part of the power of the squad its its cheap- 5 marines, not breaking the bank, and only have a fist. How many guns are you going to point at them? Surely there's something more important than 5 assault marines, a mediocre unit? I mean really?

Eh, i've fired a vindicator into an assault marine squad, just to get rid of that power fist / potential melta bomb.

Smart man

what if it had missed? would you have fired more?

I don't know. Vindicators don't miss that often, since, they have a large template and a BS of 4.

I probably would've cried a bit. Then shot them next turn, since I have about 24" from the first shot to kill them.

What else could your vindicator have shot at? Did you have any other juicy targets? What if after missing it copped a weapon destroyed result?
Then what would you have pointed at the assault marines ? Depending on the army make up of course, but I can think of alot of units (read: Most) that would prefer 5 ass marines eat a vindicator shell instead of themselves

The thing is that for roughly the same price, you're bringing scout bikes with grenade launchers and a fist, which does roughly the same thing. Why is a throwaway fist on a scout bike squad not worth it while on an assault squad it is?

Also, one of the problems is that they have basically no shooting whatsoever. You either get into close combat, or you do nothing. This is rather limiting...

I don't have a codex nearby- how much is the scout bikers? Can we not give them the GL for a comparable price?
I'd rather the bikes if the price is around 125, unless i played in heavy terrain/cities of death/parking lots regularly.

A four man scout bike unit with 3 grenade launchers and a power fist is 145 points.

A teleport homer and one less bike (BS3 grenade launchers aren't that reliable) would make them 140 points.

Thank you but I believe I asked how much they were without the GL. The bit where I asked "Can we not give them the GL?".

Three bikes with a power fist and no grenade launchers are 95 points.

If I were relying on deep striking terminators I would add a teleport homer though.

Ailaros wrote:The thing is that for roughly the same price, you're bringing scout bikes with grenade launchers and a fist, which does roughly the same thing. Why is a throwaway fist on a scout bike squad not worth it while on an assault squad it is?

Fists on scout bike squads are extra worth it, since scout bikers get a guaranteed turn 1 charge if you go first and the enemy deploys on table.