WD Codex: Independent Charaters that have the "Act of Faith" rule benifit from and bonus recieved by the unit when the AoF is used. Similarly units that have AoF rule benifit from any bonus when an IC uses an AoF that has joined the unit.

WD Codex: Cannoness "The Passion" "... if successful the Cannoness and her unit ... "

Based on how 40K rules work, I agrue that the Passion would in fact affect a Battle Conclave even though they do not have the AoF rule. We have a general rule that states that Faith Powers benifit both IC and Unit if both have the AoF rule. We also have a specific rule in the passion which states it affect both her AND her unit, so IMO it shouldn't matter if they have the AoF rule.

Correct?

Except you go back to the Battle conclave not having the Act of Faith Special rule.


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on top of that giving i6 death cult rerolls to hit is worthless cause i assume you are running uriah or kriz, which have rightous rage. making them i 7? really? is that what you need to do?

Technically, the rules make it so an IC who has AOF can't use it if they aren't attached to a squad with AOF since there are no rules for an IC making a faith check separate of an AOF unit, only rules for units with ICs attached making AOF checks.

Doesn't matter. If the Passion didn't state "Her Unit" then it would only affect units that had the AoF rule.

The Passion specificly states what it affects, her and her unit. You have General Permission to affect a unit with AoF. You have specific Permission to affect the Cannoness AND her Unit.

But you can't make the act of faith check to activate it, since there are no rules for an IC making an AOF check, only Sisters of Battle units with the AOF rule.

why though? just why? would you ever do this, since she is the only IC with an act of faith and the only thing that doesn't have Act of faith is the Battle conclave.

i am trying to see what you would do with this if it was miraculously possible,

Acts of Faith
An Act of Faith can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase..

So:
- Are you in a Sisters of Battle Unit? Yes, BC is a SoB unit.
- Does that unit have the AoF rule? Nope.
- Is the AoF rule one of the rules that transfers to the unit from the Main Rulebook? Nope, so the canoness can't use it.

IC can't use AOF in a non AOF unit.

Pretre, you're staying that a Cannoness isn't a SoB unit with AoF? How do you come to THAT conclusion?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:why though? just why? would you ever do this, since she is the only IC with an act of faith and the only thing that doesn't have Act of faith is the Battle conclave.

i am trying to see what you would do with this if it was miraculously possible,

Put Kyrinov with a blob of 20 sisters for fearless and attach a Canoness to the Battle Conclave for Rerolls and I? Silly, but a reason.


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Yonush wrote:Pretre, you're staying that a Cannoness isn't a SoB unit with AoF? How do you come to THAT conclusion?

She's an SOB IC with AOF. When she joins a Battle Conclave she is part of an SOB unit without AOF.

Pretre is spot on for this one. You cannot make the test in the first place.

pretre wrote:

Yonush wrote:Pretre, you're staying that a Cannoness isn't a SoB unit with AoF? How do you come to THAT conclusion?

She's an SOB IC with AOF. When she joins a Battle Conclave she is part of an SOB unit without AOF.

Um, No. An IC is a unit and in addition, when she joins the Battle Conclave the "Unit" (meaning the BC and the IC) does have AoF from the cannoness. If the cannoness had an eviserator, would you say the unit has an eviserator?

The Passion confers its power to the unit because it specificly states it does.

on the contrary pretre

a SOB unit may attempt an act of faith.

the Battle conclave with a cannoness can use her act of faith, but since the battle conclave does NOT have the Act Of Faith special rule they can not benefit.

under independent characters says they benefit from and act of faith there unit uses, as does the unit that has the AOF rule


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pretre wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:why though? just why? would you ever do this, since she is the only IC with an act of faith and the only thing that doesn't have Act of faith is the Battle conclave.

i am trying to see what you would do with this if it was miraculously possible,

Put Kyrinov with a blob of 20 sisters for fearless and attach a Canoness to the Battle Conclave for Rerolls and I? Silly, but a reason.

ok so give the battle conclave a bare bones priest look rerolls lol

Yonush wrote:Um, No. An IC is a unit and in addition, when she joins the Battle Conclave the "Unit" (meaning the BC and the IC) does have AoF from the cannoness.

Rules, other than USRs specifically noted to do so, do not transfer to the unit when an IC attaches. See quote below from the rulebook.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:under independent characters says they benefit from and act of faith there unit uses, as does the unit that has the AOF rule

But the canoness is no longer a unit when she joins the BC, she is part of the unit. The unit does not have the AoF special rule, hence they can't use it.

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote:
When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

And un like all the other units with AOF the Cannoness is the only IC with an AOF she can use.

all other things are Units.

so for her AOF to say

if successful the unit receives +1I and preferred enemy, is bad ...writing.

other wise in CC she is her own unit for CC attacks but this would just apply to her unit not her.

which then would still fall under if the have the AOF special rule or not

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:if successful the unit receives +1I and preferred enemy, is bad ...writing.

No, it is specifying the interaction of her AoF with her unit. It works when she is able to use an AOF, which she is able to do when she attaches to a unit with AoF. It is pretty clear.

pretre wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:under independent characters says they benefit from and act of faith there unit uses, as does the unit that has the AOF rule

But the canoness is no longer a unit when she joins the BC, she is part of the unit. The unit does not have the AoF special rule, hence they can't use it.

The battle conclave is a SOB unit. As is the Cannoness. both a units in the SOB codex.

so they are allowed to attempt an act of faith (or rather the Cannoness is )

AoF isnt a USR so that doesn't apply and I'm not saying the BC get AoF rule, the cannoness has it so the unit has it so it can infact use the AoF. Now if The Passion did not speficly state the cannoness and her unit, then the BC couldn't benifit as the general rule would prohibit them. Specific over general. Specific permission is granted by the passion.

pretre wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:if successful the unit receives +1I and preferred enemy, is bad ...writing.

No, it is specifying the interaction of her AoF with her unit. It works when she is able to use an AOF, which she is able to do when she attaches to a unit with AoF. It is pretty clear.

i might have been misleading,

verbatim it says

"The cannoness and her unit"

not if successful the unit.

Yonush wrote:AoF isnt a USR so that doesn't apply and I'm not saying the BC get AoF rule, the cannoness has it so the unit has it so it can infact use the AoF. Now if The Passion did not speficly state the cannoness and her unit, then the BC couldn't benifit as the general rule would prohibit them. Specific over general. Specific permission is granted by the passion.

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote:When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

Acts of Faith, Codex:SOB wrote:An Act of Faith can be attempted immediately before a Sisters of Battle unit acts during a phase..

P48 isn't talking about USRs, it is talking about all special rules. The unit does not have AOF. The unit does not gain AOF from the IC. The AOF rule requires it to be used by a UNIT. Hence, you can't use it because you can never make the test.




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THE_GODLYNESS wrote:i might have been misleading, verbatim it says "The cannoness and her unit" not if successful the unit.

I'm looking at it. It is probably there to indicate that, because she is a separate unit in CC, the unit also benefits from the rule.

Yonush wrote:AoF isnt a USR so that doesn't apply and I'm not saying the BC get AoF rule, the cannoness has it so the unit has it so it can infact use the AoF. Now if The Passion did not speficly state the cannoness and her unit, then the BC couldn't benifit as the general rule would prohibit them. Specific over general. Specific permission is granted by the passion.

on the flip side where is permission given to transfer AOF to something that does not have it?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:on the flip side where is permission given to transfer AOF to something that does not have it?

There isn't any. In fact, the main rulebook specifically prohibits her from transferring AOF to the unit. The effects of AOF might transfer if she could make a test in the first place, but she can't.

pretre wrote: P48 isn't talking about USRs, it is talking about all special rules. The unit does not have AOF. The unit does not gain AOF from the IC. The AOF rule requires it to be used by a UNIT. Hence, you can't use it because you can never make the test.

Titan's Herald (BroChamp, GK Codex) has similar wording except for the activation.
As does The Perfect Warrior (same unit)
Techmarine's being able to repair is a special rule.

What your'e advocating is that the IC loses a special rule (or at least, loses access to a special rule) when joined to a unit.
The AoF rule requires it to be used by a unit, and the IC is a unit that has AoF.
I don't see an issue here.

If you read it under the independent characters and act of faith it is allowing the Cannoness to use her act of faith separate from the Celestians in this example.

it is specifce when it says they gain bonus if they have the AOF special rule.

Also specific is the Passion.

but since the Battle conclave does not meet the Requirements to benefit from an AOF then they cant

Again she doesn't conferit but the unit does have it and she can still benifit from it.

Example to illistrate my point. IC with preferred enemy joins a unit without. The ic does lose the PE rule. It still has it. So the unit has it. Just like if 1 person in a unit has a multmelta the unit has a multimelta.

The only reason the BC can benifit is because the passion specificly allows them too.

Yonush

The Cannoness and the unit Gain "The Passion"

this is to say that they have it you are correct.

Now if you have the special rule AOF you benifit from having it.

as such the cannonness has the AOF special rule so gains +1I and preferred enemy, the Battle conclave does not have AOF therefore while they are under the affects of "The Passion" they do not benefit from it

Not quite.

Standard denial - permission must be granted to do anything
General Permission to Cast an AOF given
General permission to share AoF if both units have AoF
Specific permission by The Passion to affect to allow the unit to benifit.

pretre wrote:But you can't make the act of faith check to activate it, since there are no rules for an IC making an AOF check, only Sisters of Battle units with the AOF rule.

I only skimmed the rest of the thread, so feel free to mock me if this has already been addressed.

I'll admit that it's unclear about how an IC makes faith checks, but I don't think it's valid to leap to the conclusion that an IC that's not attached to a squad can't use an AoF. An IC is a "Unit". In my mind, the only question is whether she tests on a 5+ or a 4+. (Does an IC count as being attached to herself?)

rigeld2 wrote:

pretre wrote: P48 isn't talking about USRs, it is talking about all special rules. The unit does not have AOF. The unit does not gain AOF from the IC. The AOF rule requires it to be used by a UNIT. Hence, you can't use it because you can never make the test.

Titan's Herald (BroChamp, GK Codex) has similar wording except for the activation.
As does The Perfect Warrior (same unit)
Techmarine's being able to repair is a special rule.

What your'e advocating is that the IC loses a special rule (or at least, loses access to a special rule) when joined to a unit.
The AoF rule requires it to be used by a unit, and the IC is a unit that has AoF.
I don't see an issue here.

Actually, rigeld, what he is advocating is that the IC special rules does not affect the unit (unless otherwise specified). This means that a Techmarine attached to a unit can still repair vehicles (otherwise it would be impossible to get the Servo-arm Servitor bonus). Titan's Herald does not have an activation, other than charging. Does AoF itself, not a specific power, specify that it affects any unit an IC joins?

Amerikon wrote:I'll admit that it's unclear about how an IC makes faith checks, but I don't think it's valid to leap to the conclusion that an IC that's not attached to a squad can't use an AoF. An IC is a "Unit". In my mind, the only question is whether she tests on a 5+ or a 4+. (Does an IC count as being attached to herself?)

When an IC joins a unit, it is considered to be a normal member of the unit (except for making attacks in close combat).

Happyjew wrote:Does AoF itself, not a specific power, specify that it affects any unit an IC joins?

The AoF rule says that an IC joined to a squad will receive the bonuses of Acts used by the unit to which she is attached. Similarly, if she is attached to a unit with the AoF rule, they will benefit from her act. What's unclear is what happens when she joins a unit that doesn't have AoF.

She can either still use her Act, but it would only apply to her. OR She can't use her act at all. I'm leaning towards the first interpretation.

Happyjew wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I'll admit that it's unclear about how an IC makes faith checks, but I don't think it's valid to leap to the conclusion that an IC that's not attached to a squad can't use an AoF. An IC is a "Unit". In my mind, the only question is whether she tests on a 5+ or a 4+. (Does an IC count as being attached to herself?)

When an IC joins a unit, it is considered to be a normal member of the unit (except for making attacks in close combat).

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about the IC by herself, not attached to any unit. The IC is still a "Unit", she's just a "Unit of 1". The question then is whether or not she gives herself the +1 to her AoF roll. I'm inclined to think that she does.

Yonsushs whole argument does not care about any of this it hinges on the wording of "The Passion"

Happyjew wrote:

pretre wrote: The unit does not gain AOF from the IC. The AOF rule requires it to be used by a UNIT. Hence, you can't use it because you can never make the test.

Actually, rigeld, what he is advocating is that the IC special rules does not affect the unit (unless otherwise specified). This means that a Techmarine attached to a unit can still repair vehicles (otherwise it would be impossible to get the Servo-arm Servitor bonus). Titan's Herald does not have an activation, other than charging.

I bolded and isolated the part I was addressing. It reads to me like he's saying that if the unit doesn't have a special rule (note - not USR, a separate special rule) then the IC loses access to it.

Does AoF itself, not a specific power, specify that it affects any unit an IC joins?

No idea, don't have the codex. I was simply addressing the quote. From the context of this thread it looks like it only affects a unit that also has AoF.

Passion, however, (from this thread) specifies that it affects the IC and his unit.

Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying, Amerikon.


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OK, I've re-read the wording of Acts of Faith.

Similarly, units that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from any bonuses received by an independent character that has joined the unit when an Act of Faith is used

Since, the unit does NOT have AoF, they do not receive any benefits from an AoF, even if the wording of the Act says "and her unit".

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Yonsushs whole argument does not care about any of this it hinges on the wording of "The Passion"

It certainly cares about whether or not an IC attached to a non-faithful unit can use Acts of Faith.

That said, the SoB "codex" is pretty sloppy. I'd say that it was not their intention for a Canoness's Act to transfer to non-faithful units. That also said, RAW would support that it does.

Yonush: What answer are you looking for? You clearly came here looking for a specific one, so what would you like us to say?

@Amerikon: She is no longer 'a unit of 1' once she joins the BC unit. She is then part of the BC unit.

Also, Titan's Herald doesnt' require another special rule to work. I'm not arguing whether the Passion affects the squad or not. I'm arguing that you cannot activate the Passion because you can't use an Act of Faith unless you are a unit with the Special Rule 'Act of Faith'.


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Amerikon wrote:That also said, RAW would support that it does.

How?
Where is the rule for an IC attached to an unfaithful unit to use an AOF?

pretre wrote:Also, Titan's Herald doesnt' require another special rule to work. I'm not arguing whether the Passion affects the squad or not. I'm arguing that you cannot activate the Passion because you can't use an Act of Faith unless you are a unit with the Special Rule 'Act of Faith'.

So you're arguing that the IC cannot activate an ability that the IC has when he's attached to a unit?
(The Cannoness cannot activate Act of Faith to access The Passion because she's attached to a unit that doesn't also have Act of Faith)

I just want to make sure I understand your opinion to be able to argue against it effectively and not misrepresent you.

Happyjew wrote:OK, I've re-read the wording of Acts of Faith.

Similarly, units that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from any bonuses received by an independent character that has joined the unit when an Act of Faith is used

Since, the unit does NOT have AoF, they do not receive any benefits from an AoF, even if the wording of the Act says "and her unit".

What rules do you have to backup your position?

Okay, let's go on a quoting spree:

Acts of Faith: "An acto of faith can be attempted immediately before a sisters of battle unit acts during a phase."

ICS and Acts of Faith: "Independent characters that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from the bonuses received by the unit they are with when an act of faith is used. Similarly, units that have the Acts of Faith rule benefit from any bonuses received by an independent character that has joined the unit when an act of faith is used.

If both a unit and an independent character have an AoF that takes effect in the same phase, you must attempt each act of faith separately."

Nowhere in there does it tell you how a model makes an act of faith. Since the Canoness is part of the unit, and the unit cannot make an AoF check, because it does not have the AoF special rule, and special rules do not transfer unless they specifically say so in their rules, she cannot make it.

And no, the Passion saying that it affects the unit does not transfer the ACT OF FAITH rule to the unit, it transfers the effects of the act of faith.


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Yonush wrote:What rules do you have to backup your position?

Great question. Quote a rule showing us how your unit without a particular special rule makes the check, or how the rules tell you to make a model make an AoF check.


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Oh and just so you don't forget:

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote:

When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.


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rigeld2 wrote:So you're arguing that the IC cannot activate an ability that the IC has when he's attached to a unit?
(The Cannoness cannot activate Act of Faith to access The Passion because she's attached to a unit that doesn't also have Act of Faith)

I just want to make sure I understand your opinion to be able to argue against it effectively and not misrepresent you.

That is correct. The IC cannot activate the power because only units can use Acts of Faith and she is not in a unit that has the Act of Faith special rule.

@Yonush, if a unit that has AoF benefits from an attached IC's AoF, then a unit without AoF does not benefit from AoF from an attached IC.
Basically:
If A Then B
B=/= C
=> If A, Then Not C.

I would allow the Cannoness use AoF, however, unless her unit has AoF they would not benefit from it.

rigeld2 wrote: It reads to me like he's saying that if the unit doesn't have a special rule (note - not USR, a separate special rule) then the IC loses access to it.

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote:

When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.


edit: No, that's not what I'm saying. They don't lose the special rule, but the unit does not gain it. The Acts of Faith rule requires a unit to test, not a model. The unit cannot test, only the model has a special rule that allows it. There is no rule for AoF tests to be taken by a single model in a squad.

rigeld, what that is saying, is (for example) if a Techmarine joins a Vanguard Veteran squad, he does not benefit from Heroic Intervention, and they do not benefit from Blessing of the Omnissiah (so they cannot repair vehicles). The Techmarine, however, can still repair vehicles since he doesn't lose the rule.

pretre wrote:Since the Canoness is part of the unit, and the unit cannot make an AoF check, because it does not have the AoF special rule, and special rules do not transfer unless they specifically say so in their rules, she cannot make it.

So you're asserting that an IC stops being an individual unit in all ways once it joins another unit?

If 2 ICs join each other, is there a unit there?

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So you're arguing that the IC cannot activate an ability that the IC has when he's attached to a unit?
(The Cannoness cannot activate Act of Faith to access The Passion because she's attached to a unit that doesn't also have Act of Faith)

I just want to make sure I understand your opinion to be able to argue against it effectively and not misrepresent you.

That is correct. The IC cannot activate the power because only units can use Acts of Faith and she is not in a unit that has the Act of Faith special rule.

Let's not get snippy...

In order to use an AoF the unit must have AoF. I covered this already, but to reiterate, when the cannoness joins the Battle Conclave, the unit does have the AoF rule because the cannoness doesn't lose it, it just doesn't confer to the Battle Conclave. The unit has it, even if the Battle Conclave doesn't.

Since the unit has AoF it can use AoF "The Passion". General Permission Granted.
The Passion has Specific verbage that the cannoness AND unit gains +1I and PE.

pretre wrote:@Amerikon: She is no longer 'a unit of 1' once she joins the BC unit. She is then part of the BC unit.

I can see that. If she joins an non-faithful unit, she's a part of that unit, so she can't use her act. They really left this unspecified, but I think it's a valid interpretation.

My other point that if she could use her act it would give a bonus to the non-faithful unit (RAW) is clearly invalidated by this.

rigeld2 wrote:So you're asserting that an IC stops being an individual unit in all ways once it joins another unit?

If 2 ICs join each other, is there a unit there?

Yes, except during one part of the assault phase.

Yes, if two ICs join each other, it is a unit. If a Canoness joined a theoretical non-Faithful IC, they would be a 2 person unit without the AoF rule. The Vanguard Veteran example above is great.

Yonush wrote:In order to use an AoF the unit must have AoF. I covered this already, but to reiterate, when the cannoness joins the Battle Conclave, the unit does have the AoF rule because the cannoness doesn't lose it, it just doesn't confer to the Battle Conclave. The unit has it, even if the Battle Conclave doesn't.

I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Yonush wrote:The unit has it, even if the Battle Conclave doesn't.

Stop, you can't transfer rules like that.

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote: When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

If a techmarine joins a Vanguard Veteran squad, the unit no longer has 'Heroic Intervention' even though most of the models do.

Since the unit has AoF it can use AoF "The Passion". General Permission Granted.

Wrong. The unit does not have AoF. One model does.

The Passion has Specific verbage that the cannoness AND unit gains +1I and PE.

Agreed. If only you could use the power, it would be great.

All i am saying is if you wanted Re-rolls to hit add a priest. the Cannoness is the only ic that has an act of faith and your joining it with the only unit (bar vehicles) that does not. completely pointless. and point waste.

and since i am the only SOB in my area i Doubt i will be trying to force feed this shenanigan down someones throat.

i am a firm believer that whether or not the Cannoness can use her is irrelevant cause the Battle conclave can not benefit from it due to not having AOF

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So you're asserting that an IC stops being an individual unit in all ways once it joins another unit?

If 2 ICs join each other, is there a unit there?

Yes, except during one part of the assault phase.

Yes, if two ICs join each other, it is a unit. If a Canoness joined a theoretical non-Faithful IC, they would be a 2 person unit without the AoF rule. The Vanguard Veteran example above is great.

If two IC's join, and an IC joining loses it's unit-hood, how does a 2 IC group become a unit?

Amerikon wrote:I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Exactly.

Happy, id agree with you if the specific wording of The Passion didn't include "and her unit". It does so without specific denial it works RAW

rigeld2 wrote:If two IC's join, and an IC joining loses it's unit-hood, how does a 2 IC group become a unit?

P48
'They can join other independent characters to form a powerful multi-character unit!'


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Yonush wrote:Happy, id agree with you if the specific wording of The Passion didn't include "and her unit". It does so without specific denial it works RAW

No, the EFFECT of her power works on her unit. The ACTIVATION of her power never occurs because she can't roll an Act of Faith.

That is what i will do make a 2 Cannoness unit so i am i6 with power weapons in CC yeah beast thing ever

pretre wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Exactly.

Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

Yonush wrote:

pretre wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Exactly.

Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

You are applying english rules to special rules. They don't work like that.

The answer is no, the canoness has a power weapon.

Yonush wrote:Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

That is a terrible example. Let me give you a better example to use for your argument, if the Canoness has Feel no Pain and joins a unit that doesn't have it, does she lose the feel no pain rule?

And just because you keep ignoring it:

P48, Main Rulebook: wrote: When an IC joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

Necrosis wrote:

Yonush wrote:Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

That is a terrible example. Let me give you a better example to use for your argument, if the Canoness has Feel no Pain and joins a unit that doesn't have it, does she lose the feel no pain rule?

No.

when you allocate wounds to said model, it will benefit from FNP (if applicable of course)

pretre, I don't think we need to keep bringing up the wording on page 48.
In regards to USRs, certain ones are lost if an IC joins a unit. For example, a Fearless IC loses Fearless if joined to a non-Fearless unit. Some are shared with the unit (such as Stubborn). Others, the unit gains the benefit of the rule, but not the rule itself, like 'Stealth'. For the rest of the USR's only the model(s) that has the rule benefits from it.

pretre wrote:

Yonush wrote:

pretre wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I don't think you can jump to the conclusion that "the unit" has it. There's no justification for the Canoness conferring AoF to the Conclave. It's not a case of the Canoness "losing it" but more that she's part of a unit that doesn't have it.

Exactly.

Simple question. If a cannoness has a power sword and joins a unit of sisters, can you say the unit has a power sword?

You are applying english rules to special rules. They don't work like that.

The answer is no, the canoness has a power weapon.

That can't be. The IC is part of the unit for all purposes except for CC as you rightly stated before. So as the cannoness is part of the unit the unit has a power sword.

So as we agree that the cannoness doest lose AoF, the unit can be said to have AoF as the cannoness is part of the unit. Do you see my logic?

I'm not 100% convinced that the IC loses it's "unit-hood".

The IC + unit is referred to as a "combined unit" on page 48.

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not 100% convinced that the IC loses it's "unit-hood".

The IC + unit is referred to as a "combined unit" on page 48.

Right. The Combined Unit does not have the AoF rule.

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not 100% convinced that the IC loses it's "unit-hood".

The IC + unit is referred to as a "combined unit" on page 48.

Right. The Combined Unit does not have the AoF rule.

But the IC does.
What's stopping the IC from activating the rule she has?

Yonush wrote:So as we agree that the cannoness doest lose AoF, the unit can be said to have AoF as the cannoness is part of the unit. Do you see my logic?

I see your logic and it is specifically contradicted by P48. The unit does not have AoF; the Canoness model does. Special rules do not transfer to the unit, unless specifically indicated, per P48. The rule for AoF requires the UNIT to have the rule for it to work.


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rigeld2 wrote:

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not 100% convinced that the IC loses it's "unit-hood".

The IC + unit is referred to as a "combined unit" on page 48.

Right. The Combined Unit does not have the AoF rule.

But the IC does.
What's stopping the IC from activating the rule she has?

Because the IC is not a unit anymore, she is a model in a combined unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'm not 100% convinced that the IC loses it's "unit-hood".

The IC + unit is referred to as a "combined unit" on page 48.

Right. The Combined Unit does not have the AoF rule.

But the IC does.
What's stopping the IC from activating the rule she has?

Let's enumerate the possibilities here:

Individuals:
1) IC w/ AoF rule, on her own, is a "faithful" unit and can use Acts of Faith.
2) IC w/o AoF rule, on her own, cannot use Acts of Faith.
3) Unit w/ AoF rule, on their own, is a "faithful" unit and can use Acts of Faith.
4) Unit w/o AoF rule, on their own, cannot use Acts of Faith.

Combinations:
1 + 2) IC 1 has AoF, IC 2 does not, so the unit does not, cannot use Acts of Faith.
1 + 3) IC and Unit have AoF, can use Acts of Faith and the entire unit benefits from the Acts.
1 + 4) IC has AoF, unit does not, cannot use Acts of Faith.
2 + 3) IC does not have AoF, unit does. Unit can use AoF, but the IC does not get any benefits.
2 + 4) Nobody has AoF.
3 + 4) Doesn't make sense.

So you're saying the IC is no longer a unit. I can't find anything supporting that. Can you?

If an IC is a unit by herself, how could she possibly still be a unit by herself when she's joined with another unit?


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More clearly (I hope):

IC - A Unit
Celestians - A Unit
IC + Celestians - A Unit

IC + Celestians means necessarily that the IC is no longer a unit by herself. She is part of the unit she joined.

IC + Celestians is a combined unit, per P48.

So what are the special properties of a "combined unit" that would allow the IC to continue to use her AoF if the combined unit didn't have that rule?

The fact that the IC unit has the AoF rule and there's no restriction on it.

Edit: All I'm saying is that you're removing the unit-ness without a rule saying to.

I think the hang up here is that the only 2 IC Acts both say "The IC and their squad".
If it just said the "unit" then the argument could be made that since (for example) Battle Sisters are not "the unit" (the "unit" in this case is the Canoness) they would not benefit.
My claim is due to the wording of "IC's and AoFs", the Canoness can still use her power, but it would not affect a unit without AoF.

Happyjew wrote:
My claim is due to the wording of "IC's and AoFs", the Canoness can still use her power, but it would not affect a unit without AoF.

From the wording in this thread, Passion would disagree with you.

I think the SoB rules are too sloppily written to come to a unanimous decision on this. So if you can convince your opponent that it means you can Passion your Conclave, more power to you. I'll have to respectfully disagree.

Amerikon wrote:I think the SoB rules are too sloppily written to come to a unanimous decision on this. So if you can convince your opponent that it means you can Passion your Conclave, more power to you. I'll have to respectfully disagree.

Heck, I'd let him do it just because he wasted the points to pull off the combo when there are much better options.

I'm not arguing because I play Sisters -I've never actually seen a sisters model IRL. I just think that an IC losing his unitness has farther reaching implications than just AoF. Itd be something interesting to explore.

HappyJew wrote:I think the hang up here is that the only 2 IC Acts both say "The IC and their squad".
If it just said the "unit" then the argument could be made that since (for example) Battle Sisters are not "the unit" (the "unit" in this case is the Canoness) they would not benefit.
My claim is due to the wording of "IC's and AoFs", the Canoness can still use her power, but it would not affect a unit without AoF.

Happy here is the exact wording of "The Passion"

This Act of Faith is used in the Assault phase. If successful, the Cannoness and her unit recieve +1 Inititive and the Perferred Enemy special rule until the end of the Assault Phase.

The key words in the power is and her unit. These words, mean that it doesn't matter who her unit is, they recieve the benifit of the +1I and PE. If it didn't say and her unit then it would only affect other units with the Act of Faith rule. Thats my arguement on why it should work.

pretre wrote:

Amerikon wrote:I think the SoB rules are too sloppily written to come to a unanimous decision on this. So if you can convince your opponent that it means you can Passion your Conclave, more power to you. I'll have to respectfully disagree.

Heck, I'd let him do it just because he wasted the points to pull off the combo when there are much better options.

rigeld2 has stated, more succinctly(rigeld2) than I could, as to why IMO the Cannoness should be allowed to use The Passion while attached to a Battle Conclave.

As a side, someone asked why. Stubborn, Prefered enemy, and all models get their attacks (even Crusaiders and Arco's) vs MeQ or LC TeQ imo is sexy. It be more sexy if the rerolls could happen during the other player turn as well but what can you do.

Edit: I don't play SoB either, a friend does, and we were having a discussion as to this. He said it didn't work, I disagree based on how I read the rules, so I brought it here.

Yonush wrote:rigeld2 has stated, more succescently than I could, as to why IMO the Cannoness should be allowed to use The Passion while attached to a Battle Conclave.

succinctly (sorry, really bothered my OCD for some reason) Thanks :-)

Yonush, I know what the power says. I also know that a few pages earlier, under IC's and Acts of Faith, if a unit does not have the Actof Faith special rule, they do not benefit from the IC's Act. As it is like rigeld, I've never seen a SoB model (even in packaging), and I don't know know anyone irl who plays them.

Happyjew wrote:Yonush, I know what the power says. I also know that a few pages earlier, under IC's and Acts of Faith, if a unit does not have the Actof Faith special rule, they do not benefit from the IC's Act. As it is like rigeld, I've never seen a SoB model (even in packaging), and I don't know know anyone irl who plays them.

Specific > General. In general, AoF and ICs interact one way. Specifically, Passion says differently.

rigeld, so I understand this:
Do you agree that a unit without Acts of Faith does not benefit from an IC's Act (in general)?
If yes, then the whole system is broken, as the only Acts that IC's have (if they have any) both specify the IC and their unit. So how exactly is one more specific than the other?

Happyjew wrote:rigeld, so I understand this:
Do you agree that a unit without Acts of Faith does not benefit from an IC's Act (in general)?
If yes, then the whole system is broken, as the only Acts that IC's have (if they have any) both specify the IC and their unit. So how exactly is one more specific than the other?

Yes, thats essentially what I'm saying.
A unit with AoF will benefit from an ICs act in general.
A unit without AoF will not benefit in general.

The Passion states IC and the unit... Which overrides the 2nd general statement.
If all of the IC acts are worded the same way, then GW put in redundant rules.
I don't see breakage.

Yonush wrote:

HappyJew wrote:I think the hang up here is that the only 2 IC Acts both say "The IC and their squad".
If it just said the "unit" then the argument could be made that since (for example) Battle Sisters are not "the unit" (the "unit" in this case is the Canoness) they would not benefit.
My claim is due to the wording of "IC's and AoFs", the Canoness can still use her power, but it would not affect a unit without AoF.

Happy here is the exact wording of "The Passion"

This Act of Faith is used in the Assault phase. If successful, the Cannoness and her unit recieve +1 Inititive and the Perferred Enemy special rule until the end of the Assault Phase.

The key words in the power is and her unit. These words, mean that it doesn't matter who her unit is, they recieve the benifit of the +1I and PE. If it didn't say and her unit then it would only affect other units with the Act of Faith rule. Thats my arguement on why it should work.

I'm personally of the opinion that this is just sloppy writing. However, if we're going to take it as literal truth then it still doesn't change anything. The real debate is whether or not a faithful IC can use her Act while joined to a non-faithful unit.

Amerikon wrote: The real debate is whether or not a faithful IC can use her Act while joined to a non-faithful unit.

Agreed. And for it not to be able to, the IC has to no longer be a unit.
I don't see anything saying that.
DoW deployment calls it 2 units.
Combined Unit on page 48.
Anything supporting the removal of unit status?

rigeld, so the only things that the "no benefit" rule applies to doesn't apply?
Either:
a) they don't benefit from IC's Acts (per the rules), or,
b) they benefit from the IC's Acts (per the rules)

I agree that specific trumps general, however, this isn't exactly the case here. The rule only covers 2 powers, which both state the IC and their unit.

Happyjew wrote:rigeld, so the only things that the "no benefit" rule applies to doesn't apply?
Either:
a) they don't benefit from IC's Acts (per the rules), or,
b) they benefit from the IC's Acts (per the rules)

I agree that specific trumps general, however, this isn't exactly the case here. The rule only covers 2 powers, which both state the IC and their unit.

Correct. It's a redundant, useless rule. Hardly the only one.

Edit: plus this leaves the door open for other Acts from Forgeworld or WD.

Combined unit means it is one unit. Hence the whole thing about joining a unit on 48, losing rules on 48 and which rules transfer on 74.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also combined is only used in the coherency bullet to indicate they are one unit.

It's one unit that is a combination of two units. Otherwise the word combined is not just useless, it's misleading and wrong.

And you still haven't shown support for your assertion that an IC ceases to be a unit. It's not a separate unit, true - but I don't see any rules saying its not longer a unit. I've shown one place that absolutely shows its still a unit (DoW deployment) and another that you disagree with me on. You've shown nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:It's one unit that is a combination of two units. Otherwise the word combined is not just useless, it's misleading and wrong.

Not really. It's a necessary term to indicate the new unit. When they're trying to discuss the rules for an IC joining a unit they can't say something like "The IC joins the unit and then the unit functions like this...". So they say the "combined unit" to indicate what they're talking about.

rigeld2 wrote:And you still haven't shown support for your assertion that an IC ceases to be a unit. It's not a separate unit, true - but I don't see any rules saying its not longer a unit. I've shown one place that absolutely shows its still a unit (DoW deployment) and another that you disagree with me on. You've shown nothing.

Honestly you haven't really shown anything either. The DoW deployment rules are totally irrelevant. This has basically devolved into other people saying that when an IC joins a unit they become a single unit and you saying "nuh-uh!".

I think someone brought up the example of the Techmarine joining a unit of servitors earlier. That's a perfect example. The Techmarine gets a +1 to repair rolls for every servitor in "the unit". What could that mean? Well the Techmarine is his own unit so I claim that since the rules are under the entry for his unit they are to be applied to the the "Techmarine unit". Oh, what? He's joined to another unit of Servitors? Well the Techmarine is still his own unit so he doesn't get the bonus. That's exactly how you're applying the Acts of Faith rule.

You're picking and choosing how to read the word "unit" and you can't do that. The "unit" is an IC alone, some squad, or an IC joined to another unit. And by definition of the word "unit" you can't break it up. Once it's a unit it's "one unit". You don't get to choose whether a given rule refers to the squad or the IC based on how you think the rules should work.

Page 49, resolving combats - the IC is *treated as* a seperate unit while resolving attacks.

If the IC were still a unit by itself then this is not required.

If the IC is still a unit, I will target the IC unit with my shooting attacks - oh wait, you cant do that because the IC is no longer a unit, except in combat when it is treated as one

Claiming the IC is still a unit is far, far worse than claiming it isnt.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 49, resolving combats - the IC is *treated as* a seperate unit while resolving attacks.

If the IC were still a unit by itself then this is not required.

Not true. Because they're a combined unit, and because the shooting rules allow wound allocation to the IC, something needs to be mentioned to ensure they're separate in CC.

If the IC is still a unit, I will target the IC unit with my shooting attacks - oh wait, you cant do that because the IC is no longer a unit, except in combat when it is treated as one

Specifically forbidden on page 49, they're "considered part of the unit" they joined. If it was a single unit, this wouldn't be required.

Claiming the IC is still a unit is far, far worse than claiming it isnt.

I'm not 100% sure that's true, mostly because I haven't had time to go through all the codexes and figure out what breaks using either interpretation.

Something needs to be mentioned because otherwise they would NOT be a unit of their own in close comabt

Page 49 says they are *again* a normal member of the unit. They are a member of the unit, not a unit in and of themselves.

Regardless - if you claim an IC joined toa unit is stil la unit in and of itself, then according to the shooting rules where you target *units* I am allowed to target the IC. This alone entirely breaks ICs from working in a meaningful sense

nosferatu1001 wrote:Regardless - if you claim an IC joined toa unit is stil la unit in and of itself, then according to the shooting rules where you target *units* I am allowed to target the IC. This alone entirely breaks ICs from working in a meaningful sense

BRB 49 wrote:Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit and so may not be picked out as targets.

Regardless of their status as a unit, you're forbidden from doing so. Please stop using that argument - I've cited rules that disagree twice now.

They are a member of the unit, not a unit in and of themselves.

Can you cite a rule saying they're no longer a unit?

And DoW deployment is not irrelevant -

BRB 93 wrote:He then can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table (this is his ‘deployment zone’).

If I join an HQ IC to a unit, then (according to you and apparently everyone else) I'm not deploying an HQ, I'm deploying a Troop unit with an HQ attached.
Similar argument can be make for Hive Commander - The Troop unit gains Outflank, I join an HQ to it, it's still a Troop unit and not a Troop + HQ unit.

Amerikon wrote:You're picking and choosing how to read the word "unit" and you can't do that. The "unit" is an IC alone, some squad, or an IC joined to another unit.

No, I'm not.

BRB 47 wrote:Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right.

That right there says an IC is a unit. I can't find anything saying it's not a unit.
Please show me a rule saying otherwise. I'm not intentionally being obtuse here - I just don't see the rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

They are a member of the unit, not a unit in and of themselves.

Can you cite a rule saying they're no longer a unit?

Can you cite one that says they are still a unit? P48 indicates that they join the unit that they attach to and become one unit, a combined unit.
Websters: combine To become one; to act together. To unite into a single number or expression. To bring into such close relationship as to obscure individual characters.

And DoW deployment is not irrelevant -

BRB 93 wrote:He then can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table (this is his ‘deployment zone’).

If I join an HQ IC to a unit, then (according to you and apparently everyone else) I'm not deploying an HQ, I'm deploying a Troop unit with an HQ attached.
Similar argument can be make for Hive Commander - The Troop unit gains Outflank, I join an HQ to it, it's still a Troop unit and not a Troop + HQ unit.

No. You are deploying three units, two troops and an HQ. How you attach or not those units does not affect the number that were deployed.

Amerikon wrote:You're picking and choosing how to read the word "unit" and you can't do that. The "unit" is an IC alone, some squad, or an IC joined to another unit.

No, I'm not.

BRB 47 wrote:Independent characters are represented by individual models, which fight as units in their own right.

That right there says an IC is a unit. I can't find anything saying it's not a unit.
Please show me a rule saying otherwise. I'm not intentionally being obtuse here - I just don't see the rule.

P3:A unit will usually consist of several models that fight together as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero.
Emphasis mine.
P49: Independent characters that have joined a unit are considered part of that unit so may not be picked out as targets.

Also, the second half of your quote on P47 is: One of the most useful abilites of independent characters is to join other units in battle.

Where does it say they stay a separate unit? (Except for one instance when they throw attacks in H2H or get attacks assigned to them.)

pretre wrote:

And DoW deployment is not irrelevant -

BRB 93 wrote:He then can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table (this is his ‘deployment zone’).

If I join an HQ IC to a unit, then (according to you and apparently everyone else) I'm not deploying an HQ, I'm deploying a Troop unit with an HQ attached.
Similar argument can be make for Hive Commander - The Troop unit gains Outflank, I join an HQ to it, it's still a Troop unit and not a Troop + HQ unit.

No. You are deploying three units, two troops and an HQ. How you attach or not those units does not affect the number that were deployed.

Not true. I join ICs to unit before deployment (FAQ clarifies this). Therefore I'm not deploying an HQ unit.

Where does it say they stay a separate unit? (Except for one instance when they throw attacks in H2H or get attacks assigned to them.)

You have that backwards - I've shown where they are a unit. Find something that says they aren't.

You're mixed up.

Q: If an Independent Character is going to begin a
game joined to a unit when should this be done? (p48)
A: You should nominate which Independent Characters
are joining units at the start of deployment before you
place any units on the board. Note that this should be
done before you nominate which units are being held
in Reserve, Deep Strike or are Outflanking etc.

You still deployed 2 troops and an HQ units, but once the HQ is attached it is no longer a separate unit, it is a combined unit (as per P48).

Counter example:
Librarian
5 Man Tac Squad
Rhino

I deploy the 5 man tac squad in the rhino.
I only place the rhino on the board.
I have deployed two Troops on the board even though one is in the other and not actually on the board until they disembark.

This is the same as:
I deploy a 5 man tac squad on the board.
I deploy the librarian attached to the tac squad.
I have deployed a Troop and an HQ on the board even though one is part of the other and doesn't count separately until they move apart or one of the other exceptions occur (KP, assault swings, etc.)

It says they are a unit - does it say "always" a unit? No, just that an IC by itself is a unit. Whic hisnt strictly needed, and is just redundant information.

Are normal members of a unit a unit in and of themselves? No? Then I guess they arent a unit while joined to another unit.

pretre wrote:You're mixed up.

You're right - the attaching happens after deployment, but before placing models on the board. I misread that, thanks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Are normal members of a unit a unit in and of themselves? No? Then I guess they arent a unit while joined to another unit.

I have no idea what you're going for here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It says they are a unit - does it say "always" a unit? No, just that an IC by itself is a unit.

It says Termagants are Infantry - does it say they're always Infantry?

No, you need permission to change the state. Have you found permission in the rules?

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It says they are a unit - does it say "always" a unit? No, just that an IC by itself is a unit.

It says Termagants are Infantry - does it say they're always Infantry?

No, you need permission to change the state. Have you found permission in the rules?

Yes, page 48. They join a unit. Hence they are no longer a unit in and of themselves. They are now a combined unit. Hence one unit. If they weren't one unit, then there would be no need for rules dictating how you can shoot at them, how they move, how assaults work when they are attached, etc so on. They are one unit.

pretre wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It says they are a unit - does it say "always" a unit? No, just that an IC by itself is a unit.

It says Termagants are Infantry - does it say they're always Infantry?

No, you need permission to change the state. Have you found permission in the rules?

Yes, page 48. They join a unit. Hence they are no longer a unit in and of themselves. They are now a combined unit. Hence one unit. If they weren't one unit, then there would be no need for rules dictating how you can shoot at them, how they move, how assaults work when they are attached, etc so on. They are one unit.

Again, you have that backwards. If they are one unit, then there's no need for rules. We have rules.
Joining a unit does not mean they are no longer a unit. You have 2 units joined together to form a combined unit (wow, look at that word...)

I'll drop the argument though, because it's heading in circles. There's no rule saying the IC is no longer a unit. You might have RAI on your side (but I don't think so) but I don't think you can say RAW she's not still a unit, and therefore can't use Acts.

rigeld2 wrote:Again, you have that backwards. If they are one unit, then there's no need for rules. We have rules.
Joining a unit does not mean they are no longer a unit. You have 2 units joined together to form a combined unit (wow, look at that word...)

And the word combined means 'to be made one'. The rules are there to show exceptions to the rules for units, because otherwise she would only act as part of a normal unit and would be untargetable in melee, etc.

I'll drop the argument though, because it's heading in circles. There's no rule saying the IC is no longer a unit. You might have RAI on your side (but I don't think so) but I don't think you can say RAW she's not still a unit, and therefore can't use Acts.

There is such a rule. It is the one saying they join another unit and the ones describing how that new unit works and the ones describing which rules work in the new unit and which don't, etc so on.. You just aren't accepting it as one.

pretre wrote:There is such a rule. It is the one saying they join another unit and the ones describing how that new unit works and the ones describing which rules work in the new unit and which don't, etc so on.. You just aren't accepting it as one.

If they're one unit, why have all the rules surrounding shooting? It's a given.
Regardless, I dropped it.

rigeld2 wrote:

pretre wrote:There is such a rule. It is the one saying they join another unit and the ones describing how that new unit works and the ones describing which rules work in the new unit and which don't, etc so on.. You just aren't accepting it as one.

If they're one unit, why have all the rules surrounding shooting? It's a given.

To emphasize that they are one unit for all purposes.

Regardless, I dropped it.

Have you?

Apologize for the minor necro of the thread, but I wanted to just ask a simple question about whether the cannoness can actually use her act of faith, which seems to have been lost or dismissed by the thread as a whole.

In the WD codex under "Independent Characters and Acts of Faith", the final paragraph leads me to believe that an independent character can activate their act of faith independently of the unit as a whole.

I understand the issue of a Battle Conclave not having acts of faith, but it seems to me that the example given was there for illustrative, and not instructive, purposes.

Thoughts?

The conclusion as I can figure it is as follows:

Determine with your group if the cannoness can use her Act of Faith while attached to a Battle Conclave within your group/ ask a TO.

The Passion does affect whatever unit the Cannoness is with by RAW due to the specific verbage used in The Passion.


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The conclusion as I can figure it is as follows:

Determine with your group if the cannoness can use her Act of Faith while attached to a Battle Conclave within your group/ ask a TO.

The Passion does affect whatever unit the Cannoness is with by RAW due to the specific verbage used in The Passion.

Yep.