if ST.C is turned into a squig and then dies would she come back?

Depends on her wording for comming back.
As such, she has not died, she has just been transformed.

I would say no, cause the squig replaces her rules and stats.

squighood the bane of Ever-living and ST.C

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:squighood the bane of Ever-living and ST.C

Don't forget Thawn and Commissar Yarrick.

Only ever-living is ignored by model replacement, via the Necron FAQ. St. Celestine has no such FAQ.

...Read Zogwarts curse.

You become a squig, with no Wargear or Special abilities.

Miraculous intervention, Ever-living, iron will, thrawns thing fall in that catagory. i was unsure but after re-reading it several times i came to that conclusion.

when the squig dies it has no abiilty to place a counter to come back from, or stand back up or take things with you

I think Squigging and Chaos Spawning fall under the umbrella of things that "remove models from play". So Celestine is removed from play, and a squig is put in her place, but she can then come back.

What is St.Celestine's wording.

Doesnt it say that if St. Celestine is removed from play place a marker etc.?

If so, once she is removed and replaced with a sqiug you place the marker and roll for her to come back.

Amerikon wrote:I think Squigging and Chaos Spawning fall under the umbrella of things that "remove models from play". So Celestine is removed from play, and a squig is put in her place, but she can then come back.

Chaos Spawn removes you from play and then the chaos player can field a chaos spawn under the chaos player control (meaning the chaos player gets a kill point).
Squig simply replaces/changes a character with squig (meaning the ork doesn't get a kill point).

DeathReaper wrote:What is St.Celestine's wording.

Doesnt it say that if St. Celestine is removed from play place a marker etc.?

If so, once she is removed and replaced with a sqiug you place the marker and roll for her to come back.

Removed as a casualty but the faq say

Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

The catch is Zogwarts curse's wording, it says Replace, at no time are you a causality or being removed from play. (unless you die of course)

As long as you are removing Saint Celestine from play, even if you are replacing her with a different model, you place a marker and she rolls to come back.

This is because you remove her from the table, and that is removing her from play.

Disagree at no is ST.C being removed from play. she is being turned in to a squig.

Replaced=/=Removed

Hey look, it is this thread again.

DeathReaper is correct.

The model is removed from play and replaced with a squig. Is St Celestine on the board? No, she must have been removed from play.

So pretre, if St C embarks a vehicle she is no longer "on the board" However, she has not been removed from play.

St Celestine's ability (originally) worked when she was killed, aka RFPaaC. The FAQ, changed it to allow it to work with abilities that RFP. As turning into a squig is neither RFP or RFPaaC, she would not get to come back.

Happyjew wrote:So pretre, if St C embarks a vehicle she is no longer "on the board" However, she has not been removed from play.

St Celestine's ability (originally) worked when she was killed, aka RFPaaC. The FAQ, changed it to allow it to work with abilities that RFP. As turning into a squig is neither RFP or RFPaaC, she would not get to come back.

She can't embark on a vehicle.

I will concede that it is unclear what happens to the actual IC model when Zogwort curses them. I was mostly being silly because this thread comes up a lot (hence the winky smiley). Personally, I would let my opponent play it however they wanted, but beleive that she comes back. Not that you see Zoggy too often.

pretre wrote:Hey look, it is this thread again.

DeathReaper is correct.

The model is removed from play and replaced with a squig. Is St Celestine on the board? No, she must have been removed from play.

So you would have a Squig and St.c? i disagree.

if i did this 5 turns in a row and killed 5 squigs i would get 5 KP.

does not seem logical or viable to say she comes back.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

pretre wrote:Hey look, it is this thread again.

DeathReaper is correct.

The model is removed from play and replaced with a squig. Is St Celestine on the board? No, she must have been removed from play.

So you would have a Squig and St.c? i disagree.

if i did this 5 turns in a row and killed 5 squigs i would get 5 KP.

does not seem logical or viable to say she comes back.

Well Saint Celestine can do that to chaos spawns.

yes but Boon of Mut, and Gift of Chaos both say remove the model and then it is replaced.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:if i did this 5 turns in a row and killed 5 squigs i would get 5 KP.

does not seem logical or viable to say she comes back.

What part of "Miraculous" don't you understand?

The way i see it, you replace the model with a squig that has no wargear or special rules.
Replacing (transforming) a model is far from removing it from play.

I would say she loses the ability to come back.

Amerikon wrote:What part of "Miraculous" don't you understand?

And win!

Again, Zogwort's rule is unclear, therefore the interaction is going to be unclear. Decide with your opponent.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Disagree at no is ST.C being removed from play. she is being turned in to a squig.

Replaced=/=Removed

So you're saying the St Celestine model is still on the table with the squig? Cause otherwise, if she is removed for whatever reason, she rolls to come back. Doesn't matter that you put down a squig. You still removed the Celestine model.

No, you get to roll is she is Removed from Play or killed (Removed from Play as a Casualty). Does Zogworts curse say the model is Removed from Play or killed?

Happyjew wrote:No, you get to roll is she is Removed from Play or killed (Removed from Play as a Casualty). Does Zogworts curse say the model is Removed from Play or killed?

Not sure what zogwarts says, but if she is not on the table, and a squigg is, she has been removed from play.

It doesn't deal wounds, so she obviously not killed, and it does not say that she is removed from play. She simply turns into a Squig. As she does not meet the prerequisites for MI, she cannot come back.

Happyjew wrote:It doesn't deal wounds, so she obviously not killed, and it does not say that she is removed from play. She simply turns into a Squig. As she does not meet the prerequisites for MI, she cannot come back.

Except that her being removed from play, as her model and special rules are not in play anymore, triggers her rule, and you place a marker.

DeathReaper is correct.

It sucks for the Ork player (kind of) and kind of for the Sister Player too, since you will get KPs off the squigs.

/shrug. But thems the lumps. One Special Character can out do your special characters special. I feel so *awful* for you! /sarcasm

With zogworts curse the model is not killed or removed from play. Its statline special rules and wargear change. That is not being removed from play, it is being altered.

Grimgar314 wrote:With zogworts curse the model is not killed or removed from play. Its statline special rules and wargear change. That is not being removed from play, it is being altered.

Really?

Is St. Celestine still in play after the Squiging?

Or is she removed and replaced with a squig?

If its the later you place a marker.

DeathReaper wrote:

Grimgar314 wrote:With zogworts curse the model is not killed or removed from play. Its statline special rules and wargear change. That is not being removed from play, it is being altered.

Really?

Is St. Celestine still in play after the Squiging?

Or is she removed and replaced with a squig?

If its the later you place a marker.

Hmm then I guess st. c can come back as it is replaced by the squig model. My bad.

Grimgar314 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Grimgar314 wrote:With zogworts curse the model is not killed or removed from play. Its statline special rules and wargear change. That is not being removed from play, it is being altered.

Really?

Is St. Celestine still in play after the Squiging?

Or is she removed and replaced with a squig?

If its the later you place a marker.

Hmm then I guess st. c can come back as it is replaced by the squig model. My bad.

What's wrong with you, you aren't supposed to admit you are wrong on the internet!

You are supposed to go on for 10 pages back and forth!

Geez.

Agree, replacing a model consists of pulling one model and setting down another. By the FAQ, you could get any number of Celestine the living Squig over a game.

Just curious, is St. Celestine fearless? If not, what would happen if she left the table by falling back?
What happens if she deep strikes, mishaps and is placed into reserves? Would you have two Celestines?

For the latter, she was never on the table in the first place, so she wasn't removed.

As above - when you scatter you only have a marker in play, not the actual unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above - when you scatter you only have a marker in play, not the actual unit.

Actually, that's not true.

P95: First place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive and roll the scatter dice.
She is on the table.

P95: Terrible Accident ... The entire unit is destroyed!

She is on the table, scatters into something bad and is destroyed. So you place her marker and she can come back.

As for fallback, P44: If any model from a unit that is falling back comes into contact with a table edge, the entire unit is removed from the game and counts as destroyed.

Right now, there is literally no way that I know of to stop her from coming back.

Of course, since she's fearless and I would never deepstrike her, those don't come up for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, if you attached her to a unit and used a different model from the unit as the first model, she could be destroyed since she was never on the table in the first place.

"in the position you would like the unit to arrive "

The unit hasnt arrived. It is simply a marker, not the unit itself.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"in the position you would like the unit to arrive "

The unit hasnt arrived. It is simply a marker, not the unit itself.

Kind of, but the marker is her model, hence her model is on the table and in play. When she is destroyed, she is removed as a casualty/removed from play. Hence she gets to come back.

Jidmah wrote: Just curious, is St. Celestine fearless? If not, what would happen if she left the table by falling back?

She's Fearless, but if joined to a non-Fearless unit could still be forced to fall back. If the unit were to hit the table edge, it is "removed from the game and counts as destroyed". Based on that, I'd say place Celestine's marker at the table edge where the unit ran off and next turn start rolling for MI.

pretre wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:"in the position you would like the unit to arrive "

The unit hasnt arrived. It is simply a marker, not the unit itself.

Kind of, but the marker is her model, hence her model is on the table and in play. When she is destroyed, she is removed as a casualty/removed from play. Hence she gets to come back.

The model is a marker, meaning she is never "in play" - she mishaps and is destroyed / delayed / misplaced before entering play.

Indeed, as far as deep-striking goes, I think the model is just a cinematic marker.

You could just as easily use a blade of grass. But it is less uniform and less cinematic.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Indeed, as far as deep-striking goes, I think the model is just a cinematic marker.

You could just as easily use a blade of grass. But it is less uniform and less cinematic.

We can't use a blade of grass though because the rules tell us to use a model from the unit.

pretre wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Indeed, as far as deep-striking goes, I think the model is just a cinematic marker.

You could just as easily use a blade of grass. But it is less uniform and less cinematic.

We can't use a blade of grass though because the rules tell us to use a model from the unit.

Definitely correct.
I just meant that the rules could do almost as well telling us to use a blade of grass / poker chip / Russian woman. It's just that using the model is easy (have it on hand) and cinematic. And it's easier to keep consistency.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I just meant that the rules could do almost as well telling us to use a blade of grass / poker chip / Russian woman. It's just that using the model is easy (have it on hand) and cinematic. And it's easier to keep consistency.

I disagree with that contention but both of our opinions are trying to define RAI. What's important is that RAW tells us to use a model from the unit.

However ever much i want her to comeback after squiging its not there.

So if i squiged an ever living model what is stopping it from coming back?

if i squiged thrawn whats stopping him from coming back.

if i squiged Commissar yarrick whats stopping him.


The model is Replaced by a squig. and according to Deathreapers rules when ever i pick up my model to even move it, since it has left the table i get a counter, so if i keep picking it and placing it i have infinite ST.Cs

Her Miraculs intervention only kicks in when the rules allow it too. if she is warprifted or RFPaaC.

Her rules do not work when she is Replaced. the word remove is not in Zogwarts curse. therefor is not applicable to ANY of the above


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:As long as you are removing Saint Celestine from play, even if you are replacing her with a different model, you place a marker and she rolls to come back.

This is because you remove her from the table, and that is removing her from play.

The argument is that since St C is not on the board, she has been removed from play. (I know I'm going to get some flak for this, but...) EL is used when removed from play as a casualty, Yarrick (and I think Thrawn not sure off hand) come-back rule kicks in when they lose their last wound. St C comes back from RFP. However, since, turning her into a squig does not specify she is RFP, ipso facto she cannot come back.

So she's still in play? Or is she gone?

She is still in play, with a new statline and no wargear or special rules.

Happyjew wrote:She is still in play, with a new statline and no wargear or special rules.

Qft.

Happyjew wrote:She is still in play, with a new statline and no wargear or special rules.

No. St. Celestine is not in play, as her model, and rules are not there.

How can she be in play if she is off the board and you are not using any of her rules in the game?

because at the time she is turned in to a squig she has no rules?

when you put the squig on the table, and remove her form play, her rules for MI kick in.

why? where i zogwarts curse does it say remove? at no time is she RFP or RFPaaC so her rules do not kick in

So replacing her with a squig is not removing her from play?

If not then I guess she gets to run around and kill things still.

DeathReaper wrote:If not then I guess she gets to run around and kill things still.

Using the rules of a squig.

Did the necron FAQ not say something about everliving versus rules that replace?
I tend to see st celstine as a more unkillable character then anything with everliving due to the need to balance her points cost, so if an everliving model can avoid being squiged then I see no reason for her not to he able to pull the same thing.

That is a squig, not St. Celestine, as St. Celestine has been removed from play.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If not then I guess she gets to run around and kill things still.

Using the rules of a squig.

she can feel free to run around as a squig. till she dies and does not come back

DeathReaper wrote:That is a squig, not St. Celestine, as St. Celestine has been removed from play.

No, it's St. Celestine, using the rules of a squig.
Does it change the model's name?

No, its a squig using the rules of a squig.

St. Celestine, both model and rules, have been removed from play.

i think your trying to use her MI when MI is not used.

once you Replace her with a squig she loses all rules.

so once you pick her up off the table she is not Being RFP or RFPaaC.

she has been altered in to the profile given.

if i could actually mash your model into a squig right in front of you and not remove it from the table would she then come back?

DeathReaper wrote:No, its a squig using the rules of a squig.

St. Celestine, both model and rules, have been removed from play.

No, cause if she had, then the Ork player would have received a kill point.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If not then I guess she gets to run around and kill things still.

Using the rules of a squig.

Seems pretty straightforward.

The term "removed from play" is both descriptive and a term of art. Special rules refer to removing a model from play. As long as Celestine isn't affected by one of those rules, she cannot come back.

Zogwart's curse does not "remove [Celestine] from play," it transforms her into a different model. Therefore, she is not "removed from play."

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:if i could actually mash your model into a squig right in front of you and not remove it from the table would she then come back?

You're asking if you can do magic on my little metal woman, if that would be different? Yes, it would definitely be different. I would probably not care what happens since you had just done magic in front of me.

If she is not on the table, she has been removed from play.

pretre wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:if i could actually mash your model into a squig right in front of you and not remove it from the table would she then come back?

You're asking if you can do magic on my little metal woman, if that would be different? Yes, it would definitely be different. I would probably not care what happens since you had just done magic in front of me.

LOL

But that is what Zogwart is doing

"The target model is replaced with an angry squig model under the control of your opponent.

It is a different model, a different statline and has a different name. The Celestine model is removed from the board and a squig is placed.

Personally, I think that Zogwort is a poorly worded RFP effect. Chaos got it right with Gift of Chaos.

DeathReaper wrote:If she is not on the table, she has been removed from play.

What Rule or Ability or anything Removed her from play?

The rule is quite clear. The enemy is turned in to a squig. The are not removed from play, they are turned in to a squig. It is still Saint Celestial, still under control of the same player, showing more evidence that it remains the same charicter. She is just now a squig. It is not an unclear rule at all.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:LOL

But that is what Zogwart is doing

Sure, but if you do it, then things are a bit different.

I go back to my earliest contention. Zogwort's rules are f'd up and you need to decide with your opponent.

pretre wrote:"The target model is replaced with an angry squig model under the control of your opponent.

It is a different model, a different statline and has a different name. The Celestine model is removed from the board and a squig is placed.

Personally, I think that Zogwort is a poorly worded RFP effect. Chaos got it right with Gift of Chaos.

True as that may be squighood is the bane of things coming back

DeathReaper wrote:If she is not on the table, she has been removed from play.

so what happens when she enters a building?

She has not been removed from play at all. She has just changed form.

DeathReaper wrote:If she is not on the table, she has been removed from play.

So if I put Saint Celestine in a transport, she has now been removed from play?

DeathReaper wrote:If she is not on the table, she has been removed from play.

Soy, if she is in Reserves, she is removed from play, where does the marker get placed?
If she is in a transport she has been removed from play, so does the marker get placed in the transport, or does it go next to the Access Point?

Happyjew wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If she is not on the table, she has been removed from play.

Soy, if she is in Reserves, she is removed from play, where does the marker get placed?
If she is in a transport she has been removed from play, so does the marker get placed in the transport, or does it go next to the Access Point?

Sure she cant embark on any SOB vehicles being jump infanty and all but if you were allied with a Stormraven or some jazz that could. but entering building seems cool.

You still haven't answered my question(s). Where do the markers get placed?

Happyjew wrote:You still haven't answered my question(s). Where do the markers get placed?

i agree with you happyjew, i agree. as i have been all along. just waiting on DR's response

Sorry, didn't even look to see who quoted me, I kinda assumed it was DR.

Electro wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If she is not on the table, she has been removed from play.

so what happens when she enters a building?

She has not been removed from play at all. She has just changed form.

Embarking in a vehicle is not being removed from play, as you can still effect the game when embarked (Fire out of fire points, Measure to the transport for AoE rules etc.)

I guess I need to clarify that I was talking about her and the Squig thing:

If she is not on the table (Because she can not affect the battle any longer because of squigification) she has been removed from play.

Happyjew wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If she is not on the table, she has been removed from play.

Soy, if she is in Reserves, she is removed from play, where does the marker get placed?
If she is in a transport she has been removed from play, so does the marker get placed in the transport, or does it go next to the Access Point?

You cannot be removed from play in either of those circumstances with Celestine.

Models in reserves are destroyed if they mishap.
Celestine can't embark on a transport since she's JI.

But if she is 'Removed from Play' by any means, she comes back. See the FAQ.

DeathReaper wrote:If she is not on the table (Because she can not affect the battle any longer because of squigification) she has been removed from play.

Since I don't have the Ork Codex, does the Curse actually change the model's name?

"...The target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent. You must Provide the squig model. it has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an independent character that counts as infantry.

Squig Ws4 Bs0 S3 T2 W1 I3 A1 LD5 SV-

Then yeah - she's gone, and gets to come back with MI.

"If the Ork player scores higher, the target is replaced with an angry Squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the Squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an Independent Character that counts as Infantry."

Please tell me where in that paragraph it says that St Celestine (or any model for that matter) is killed or Removed From Play.

Celestine was there a second ago. Where did she go? Oh, she got removed from play and replaced by a squig. lol

rigeld2 wrote:Then yeah - she's gone, and gets to come back with MI.

What Rule or Abilty is RFP or RFPaaC?

Zogwarts Curse does neither. how you you Trigger MI with out the Above?

RFP and RFPaaC Have in game terms and uses. having to take your model off the table with out doing RFP or RFPaaC is the one and only Zogwarts curse. I agree with Pretre that the wording is funky and that Boon of Mut and Gift of Chaos got it right but as is Zogwarts curse gets around RFP RFPaaC

Zogwart's Curse does RFP, it just doesn't use those words.

So how many times can you Squig-ify St C?
At least 5 assuming you are close enough on turn 1, and she makes her MI roll on the first try every time.

pretre wrote:Zogwart's Curse does RFP, it just doesn't use those words.

if it did so i would get a KP.

if i used it on joe shmo SM captain what your saying i would get a KP and then after i killed the squig i would get one also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What we have here is Schrödinger's Miraculous intervention. On one side St.c is a squig and while being a Squig she is still ST.c but only if observed

pretre wrote:Zogwart's Curse does RFP, it just doesn't use those words.

No it dosn't. It dose not remove from play. It changes the chacicter in to a squig. The rules and the flufff are quite clear. The charicter is not replaced by a squig, the model is to represent the fact that she it has been turned i. To a squig. If this is not the case what it she point in this power? The whole point of the power is it changes an IC in to a squig. He can turn gods (c'tan) in to squigs.

I suspect this is one of the questions that would get a sarcastic "nice try but" if FAQd.

Except C'Tan are not Independent Characters...

I would agree that you would get a KP for each.

@Electro: I would disagree. There is no precedent for a model which is not the model which is on the table. Zogwart does not create a proxy, it removes a model from play and replaces it with another model.

Electro wrote:

pretre wrote:Zogwart's Curse does RFP, it just doesn't use those words.

No it dosn't. It dose not remove from play. It changes the chacicter in to a squig. The rules and the flufff are quite clear. The charicter is not replaced by a squig, the model is to represent the fact that she it has been turned i. To a squig. If this is not the case what it she point in this power? The whole point of the power is it changes an IC in to a squig. He can turn gods (c'tan) in to squigs.

Is it any IC or any Character? C'Tan aren't ICs.
Is St. Celestine still on the table after a successful Zogwort's Curse?

No.

But What triggers MI


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Electro wrote:

pretre wrote:Zogwart's Curse does RFP, it just doesn't use those words.

No it dosn't. It dose not remove from play. It changes the chacicter in to a squig. The rules and the flufff are quite clear. The charicter is not replaced by a squig, the model is to represent the fact that she it has been turned i. To a squig. If this is not the case what it she point in this power? The whole point of the power is it changes an IC in to a squig. He can turn gods (c'tan) in to squigs.

Is it any IC or any Character? C'Tan aren't ICs.
Is St. Celestine still on the table after a successful Zogwort's Curse?

I think he was referring to the old Necron codex in whre Ctan were ics

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:No.

But What triggers MI

Anything that removes from play or removes from play as a casualty.

If she's not on the table, she's been removed from play.

edit: And I'm pretty sure they weren't ICs in the old necron codex either - but that's irrelevant. Feel free not to respond.

We're really getting somewhere now!

rigeld2 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:No.

But What triggers MI

Anything that removes from play or removes from play as a casualty.

If she's not on the table, she's been removed from play.

edit: And I'm pretty sure they weren't ICs in the old necron codex either - but that's irrelevant. Feel free not to respond.

Dont worry i looked that up before, the old Ctan were ICs but had the above all others special rule that said they cant join any unit.

So again tell me Rigeld2 how do you equate Replace with RFP

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:No.

But What triggers MI

Anything that removes from play or removes from play as a casualty.

If she's not on the table, she's been removed from play.

So again tell me Rigeld2 how do you equate Replace with RFP

Is St. Celestine still on the table?

again no. a squig is

But what you are doing is changing the wording of zogwarts curse into something similer to Boon of mutation or Gift of chaos.

Which say remove then replace.

Again if i took your model and performed magic on it that morphed it into a squig right before your very eyes, would you say she still comes back?

cause that is what happeing, also if i pick her up off the table to move her she left the table do i get a counter?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Again if i took your model and performed magic on it that morphed it into a squig right before your very eyes, would you say she still comes back?

cause that is what happeing, also if i pick her up off the table to move her she left the table do i get a counter?

For the last time, you can't do magic. So don't bring up the magic argument. lol

And no, because she is still in play when you continue to play her.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:again no. a squig is

And the squid is not St. Celestine, right?
So has she left play, or is she still in it?

But what you are doing is changing the wording of zogwarts curse into something similer to Boon of mutation or Gift of chaos.

Which say remove then replace.

It's not physically possible to just replace.

Again if i took your model and performed magic on it that morphed it into a squig right before your very eyes, would you say she still comes back?

Well first we'd go make millions of dollars if you could do it on command... and at that point you can have that win.

cause that is what happeing

Really? I lose my St. Celestine model and get a Squig? That sucks!

also if i pick her up off the table to move her she left the table do i get a counter?

Has she been removed from play?

@rigeld2: lol. Good times.

pretre wrote:@rigeld2: lol. Good times.

I do what I can.

Seeing as were going in circles, let just agree to roll a dice on it.

Necrosis wrote:Seeing as were going in circles, let just agree to roll a dice on it.

+1million. I suggested that a page or two ago but was labeled as crazy. CRAZY, I tell you!

Now, I'll show them. I'll show them all!

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Seeing as were going in circles, let just agree to roll a dice on it.

+1million. I suggested that a page or two ago but was labeled as crazy. CRAZY, I tell you!

Now, I'll show them. I'll show them all!

That's because you are crazy.
And you can show those nice young men in the nice white coats.
They'll be happy to help you.

rigeld2 wrote:

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Seeing as were going in circles, let just agree to roll a dice on it.

+1million. I suggested that a page or two ago but was labeled as crazy. CRAZY, I tell you!

Now, I'll show them. I'll show them all!

That's because you are crazy.
And you can show those nice young men in the nice white coats.
They'll be happy to help you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d0QND_24DE&feature=related

The Words RFP are not used. anywhere in Zogwarts curse.

There for at the time St.c is turned into a Squig she cant come back. You are adding words that are not written in the Ork codex or in any FAQ.

You are implying and inferring but RAW she is a squig with no abilities, unless she some how retroactively gains them back some way.

What happens when an EL model is squiggled? here is a hint
(since it became a squig he would lose EL )

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:The Words RFP are not used. anywhere in Zogwarts curse.

I've never said they were.

There for at the time St.c is turned into a Squig she cant come back. You are adding words that are not written in the Ork codex or in any FAQ.

I'm adding nothing.

You are implying and inferring but RAW she is a squig with no abilities, unless she some how retroactively gains them back some way.

False. She is not a squig - St. Celestine is removed and a Squig is put in her place (you know, the definition of replace).
If St. Celestine is not currently in play, has she been removed from play?

What happens when an EL model is squiggled? here is a hint
(since it became a squig he would lose EL )

... and? EL only works on RFPaaC, and ZC most certainly doesn't do that. Also, irrelevant to the current thread.

No she been replaced from play.

When a model is squiged it does not count as being removed or killed, therefore no kps are given.

Agreeing with THE_GODLYNESS here; it seems quite clear the model is in no way killed/destroyed/a casualty (etc.), so she can't come back from being replaced.

Those that think she's counts as 'killed'...does that mean you feel the Squig model is actually 'deployed' or 'spawned'? Just curious...

Can someone quote MI as I cant see how they think they can use it, we already have zogs rule here so for those that think that she can come back please quote her rule as to me it pretty clear that she cant come back

If St Celestine is killed, place a marker. She can then roll to come back. The FAQ added that she can use it on Removed From Play abilities.

Happyjew wrote:If St Celestine is killed, place a marker. She can then roll to come back. The FAQ added that she can use it on Removed From Play abilities.

Sorry but whats is the exact quote

Miraculous Intervention wrote:Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she "died". Roll a D6...

FAQ wrote:Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

There are two types of attacks. Attacks that kill by dealing wounds, and attacks that kill by just removing the model from play. JotWW, Gift of Chaos, Zog's Curse are "remove from play" attacks, whether they use those exact words or not (note that the FAQ text does not emphasize or quote "remove models from play"). As such, Celestine comes back whenever she is removed from play.

"Every time St Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. That's the key phrase, the rest just describes how to roll etc. Not much there, right, But wait, there's an FAQ that goes with this!

Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

So, bottom line, if you squig St Celestine, is she still in play? If the answer is NO, then she gets MI. Simple as that, really.

Right, some of us claim that since she magically transformed into a squig, she IS in play, albeit with a new stat line, wargear, and special rules (kinda like Redmaw from IA11). Others claim, that since she no longer affects the game she has been removed from play.

OK, there's a model on the table. Is it St Celestine or is it a squig? If it's not St Celestine, she's been removed and cues MI.

Happyjew wrote:Right, some of us claim that since she magically transformed into a squig, she IS in play, albeit with a new stat line, wargear, and special rules (kinda like Redmaw from IA11). Others claim, that since she no longer affects the game she has been removed from play.

Thanks Happyjew, I would roll off on it but I am in the camp she becomes a squig then loses her MI rule before MI kicks in.

don_mondo wrote:OK, there's a model on the table. Is it St Celestine or is it a squig? If it's not St Celestine, she's been removed and cues MI.

Has no been removed from play. She has been replaced from play.

Theres no rule for magic replacement.

Nor does ZWC say remove from play. it only says replaced.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Nor does ZWC say remove from play. it only says replaced.

I'm rubber and you're glue!

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

don_mondo wrote:OK, there's a model on the table. Is it St Celestine or is it a squig? If it's not St Celestine, she's been removed and cues MI.

Has no been removed from play. She has been replaced from play.

If she's no longer in play, then by definition she's been removed from play - wether you put some other model on the table in her place or not.

Your inferring that ZWC RFPs

Please state rules back what your saying up.

Please back up your argument with more than just well since it says replace they mean remove then replace.

cause to my knowledge RFP occurs explicitly by the wargear/power used. RFPaaC is death due to shooting dangerous terrain,CC attacks etc.

so where is permission to place ST.c counter when she is Replaced by a squig

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Your inferring that ZWC RFPs

Please state rules back what your saying up.

Please back up your argument with more than just well since it says replace they mean remove then replace.

cause to my knowledge RFP occurs explicitly by the wargear/power used. RFPaaC is death due to shooting dangerous terrain,CC attacks etc.

so where is permission to place ST.c counter when she is Replaced by a squig

Plain English. She is no longer in play, therefore she was _______ from play.

Fill in the blank.

replaced

That English no work guds.

ok so where does it say Explicitly RFP in Zwc.

plain English aside she is replaced.

or since it does not we have to go by what the rule says. hence following the rules. not replacing them with rules that are not part of the wording of the ZWC

Put the squig on the table next to St. C. Now slide it sideways, pushing St. C out of the way until the Squig is in the space she was. Now take St. C off the table.

She was removed after the Squig had appeared which means that she became a squig before being removed from the table. Therefore she uses the rules for the Squig and doesn't get MI.

Alternatively do the Indiana Jones Switch from the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Hey, does anyone care that celestine technically could come back for each time she died in the game, and that she gets an additional D3 wounds each time? You even have a better chance because you roll a 4+ for each counter.

Anyway, on the zogwart mess. GW already made a ruling. Why? Because SOB OP!!!!

Q: If a model with the Reanimation Protocol special
rule is replaced by another model, for example it is
turned into a Chaos Spawn or replaced by Trazyn the
Infinite, do you place a reanimation protocol or everliving
counter next to the unit? (p29)
A: No.

Reanimation Protocol uses "removed as a casualty" as well, so GW definitely thinks replacement effects are a different thing. Hell, the two examples from the quote even remove things "as a casualty."

Note that this is an implied ruling, but GW does these all the time, so we should use it anyway.

nevermind

I could play it either way. But that faq up there seems pretty explicit.

I mean, if I get a kill point every time I turn the Saint into a squig and kill it then hey, all the better.

Its really silly. How often is this ever going to happen?

You dont get a kill point that is the premise.

tuning any ic into a squig does not give you a KP. killing the squig however does.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:You dont get a kill point that is the premise.

tuning any ic into a squig does not give you a KP. killing the squig however does.

Notice in my above post how I clearly stated that I was killing the squig.

If you're saying that the premise is that St Celestine actually comes back before the squig can be killed because of her Miraculous whatnot, then we have a problem.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:ok so where does it say Explicitly RFP in Zwc.

plain English aside she is replaced.

or since it does not we have to go by what the rule says. hence following the rules. not replacing them with rules that are not part of the wording of the ZWC

The Warhammer40k rules are not a keyworded ruleset, even less so the ork codex, so your argument is all but irrelevant.

Can someone give exact quotes of both Celestines MI and Reanimation Protocols? If the wording is identical, we've got an answer in the Necron FAQ. If not... well, 'round we go!

If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase.

If a model with [Ever-Living] is removed as a casualty...

Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter...

Now just to add fuel to the fire.
So follow me if you would...
1. Necrons can't come back from being turned into a squig.
2. Many people (not me though) draw that everliving works against any and all RFP abilities bar being destroyed in the cases the BRB gives that destroy a unit.
3. There are cases where even st C can't come back on the board, all those destroyed things in the rulebook.
4. Zogwarts wording is clear that your model is replaced not removed or killed.

So, either the little pain in the ass dies due to the reason why necrons can't unsquig as we draw a parallel between everliving and MI. This I don't fully back but anyone that uses the MI precident to get out of jaws and any RFP vs RFPaaC crap has to swallow it.

On the other hand, if you go by the rules of MI it is when she is removed as a casualty and (due to the FAQ) RFP, that she gets to make her rolls after that but raw limits her abilities to cases when she would be taken off the board. The issue over destroyed, rfp and rfpaac is that they issue KP's to the opponent. When you get squigged you are just stuck with your IC being totally gak for the rest of the game. It isn't dead or anything like it.
While you do need to remove the physical model of St C to put down the squig, the character hasn't died she is just a squig now. I look at this like any of the psyker powers or special powers that modify statlines such as the sanguinor and dante. The target isn't dead just altered.

Kitzz wrote:If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty, there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase.

If a model with [Ever-Living] is removed as a casualty...

Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter...

For Celestine, you need to add her FAQ:

Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

To use your Indiana Jones analogy, did he remove the idol as he replaced it with the bag of sand? Why yes, he did. Do you remove the Celestine to replace it with a squig? Why yes, you do. Again, bottom line. If Celestine is not in play (and she's not, the squig is), then she gets MI. Really, it is that simple. Not sure how this has gone 5 pages.

But you aren't loosing your HQ choice, it's not dead it has had it's stats changed. You don't loose a model, it just becomes totally useless.

liturgies of blood wrote:But you aren't loosing your HQ choice, it's not dead it has had it's stats changed. You don't loose a model, it just becomes totally useless.

Is Celestine still on the table? Yes or no. If no, apply MI.

Well if she gets destroyed due to deep strikes do you get to apply MI?
I think not, she isn't on the table and you don't get to apply. St celestine is now a squig, so yes she is on the table.

liturgies of blood wrote:Well if she gets destroyed due to deep strikes do you get to apply MI?
I think not, she isn't on the table and you don't get to apply. St celestine is now a squig, so yes she is on the table.

Deep Strike I think I agree with you. Course, it would be silly to not start her on the table, IMO. But that's beside the point and a different discussion. We're talking about squigging her, right?

Tp which...... No, she was REPLACED by a squig, ie you had to REMOVE the Celestine model and put something else (the squig) in her place. Celestine has been what? Removed. Hence, MI.

liturgies of blood wrote:Well if she gets destroyed due to deep strikes do you get to apply MI?
I think not, she isn't on the table and you don't get to apply. St celestine is now a squig, so yes she is on the table.

She was never on the table, so never got removed from the table, so no, she doesn't come back from a deep strike mishap.
Is the squig named St. Celestine?

This rule doesn't remove models it replaces them, destroyed is there to show that there are times when she doesn't come back despite being removed. Similar to necrons not coming back from everything. Since I just got ninja'd what happens if she is in a squad and they get hit with a sweeping advance?

Specificly what stops your model being replaced or more importantly it's profile and rules being changed, cos the second it is replaced MI is not an option?

To be very clear JOTWW is an attack that Removes a model from play and the saint can dodge that all well and good but where in Zogwarts curse is the word removed?

rigeld2 wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:Well if she gets destroyed due to deep strikes do you get to apply MI?
I think not, she isn't on the table and you don't get to apply. St celestine is now a squig, so yes she is on the table.

She was never on the table, so never got removed from the table, so no, she doesn't come back from a deep strike mishap.
Is the squig named St. Celestine?

Yes. The whole power is that she is turned in to a squig. Not that she is killed and a squig appears in her place. That is why the squig is under the control of the opposing player rather than the ork player and why the ork player dose not get a KP for it.

I would say the question should come when the squig St. Celestine is killed.

No, it's named "Squig".
And no one is saying the Squig isn't placed. There's just a counter for St. C as well.

She 100% gets MI.

She gains her MI from any ability that removes her from the game. This doesn’t mean that it has to completely and decisively use the word remove. It just means that she is no longer in play (this is why units aren’t dead when they enter transports or buildings as they are still in play/game).

Zogworts ability says replace the model. Replace is the act of swapping two things around.

Zogworts ability doesn’t say the model looses its abilities it says "the target model is replaced with an angry squig. It has the profile below and no wargear or abilities" she has been removed from play and swapped with an ability void squig, she retains all her abilities and stats albeit she is no longer in play (Once again pay close attention to the fact we are SWAPPING models not transforming them).

So after she has been squiggled by him ask these questions.

Is she a squig?
The answer is NO as you replaced her with a squig (remember what replace means, if you don’t than dictionary it, replace does 100% not mean polymorph or transform, SHE IS NOT THE SQUIG)

Is she on the board?
No

Is she in play?
No (She was replaced with a squig)

Was she removed from the game?
Yes replacing is the act of removing something and inserting something else. Also remove from play doesn’t have to 100% say remove it just means is no longer in play (see above question)

Doesn’t she loose her abilities?
Nope, it does not say once in the codex that the squig swap removes the replaced models abilities

Has she been transformed into the squig?
Fluff yes, rules no.

Does she get MI?
As the rules stand, yes.

Remember people replace does not mean transform. Nearly all of you are getting confused with the fluff, just because the fluff says that the model becomes a squig doesnt mean the rules do. The rules are vastly different.

And, again, that is entirely irrelevant to the rules at hand: the St C model WAS in play, the St C mdoel is now NO LONGER in play, and so her MI rules kick in.

mishka_shaw wrote:
Is she a squig?
The answer is NO as you replaced her with a squig (remember what replace means, if you don’t than dictionary it, replace does 100% not mean polymorph or transform, SHE IS NOT THE SQUIG)

Yes, she is the squig. Read the rules and the background. She is transformed in to a squig. Zogwort turns people in to squigs. That is what happens. You replace the modle with a squig modle to reprasent this, and until someone develops real magic powers you we will have to continue doing this. She is still in play.

I cannot see what is so hard to grasp about this. She is the squig. It is clearly in the rules that she is turned in to a squig.

mishka_shaw wrote:
Remember people replace does not mean transform. Nearly all of you are getting confused with the fluff, just because the fluff says that the model becomes a squig doesnt mean the rules do. The rules are vastly different.

Your wrong. 100% wrong. She is turned in to a squig. I will conced if you can show me where it says she is killed or removed from play. It dose not. The rules say she is transformed in to a squig. There is no gray area on this. There is no confusion on this. There is only people who are trying to brake the rules and avoid her being made usless by a power that is designed to make her usless.

The origonal question, however, what happens when the squig dies, is another matter.

So you say if you get zogwart and a squad of 30 boys hanging around just sitting besie st C, they turn her into a squig, she comes back and there is also a squig and you blast the squig and get a KP in the next turn followed by hitting the saint wiht zogwarts curse again. So you can get loads of KPs?

If I assault the saint when she is attacked to a squad and sweeping advance does she come back?
If she is attacked to a squad and gets locked in while falling back?
Those are two situations when she is removed, the act of taking her from the board, without the words.

There is no her coming back. Becoming a Squig removes special abilities including mircales, wings, and even breasts. She cannot return, gork and mork beat the emperor with random shenanigans.


This is much like the case of the impaler cannons, pure english eludes people. I myself didn't want to give up my cover save until I read it.

No, because her rule doesnt say it works against Sweeping Advance, so sweeping advance wins

Yes, when she reaches tyhe edge of the table you place her model where she "left" the table. Which, if you'd read the thread more carefully, you would have seen has already been asked AND answered.

Her rule doesn't say it works against replaced, does replaced win?

drorain wrote:There is no her coming back. Becoming a Squig removes special abilities including mircales, wings, and even breasts. She cannot return, gork and mork beat the emperor with random shenanigans.

This is much like the case of the impaler cannons, pure english eludes people. I myself didn't want to give up my cover save until I read it.

Except that she does not BECOME a squig. She is REPLACED by a squig. See the difference?

Fluff "Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig."

Rule "If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is REPLACED with an angry squig"

Replaced. Not transformed, not changed into, not becomes. Replaced. And to replace her, you have to do what? Remove her from the frikkin' table. IE, remove from play.

liturgies of blood wrote:Her rule doesn't say it works against replaced, does replaced win?

Yep, because to replace her, you have to do what? Hint - see above.....................................

She's not being replaced, her model's being replaced. She's being transformed.

Randall Turner wrote:She's not being replaced, her model's being replaced. She's being transformed.

Sorry, the rule itself says she is REPLACED. Or could you not be bothered to read the quoted rule from page 61 of the Ork codex that I provided above.........................?

Differentiate between her physical representation (the lead model) and her actual "self". I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said umpteen times before in this thread, don - if we had the capability to transform her lead model**, the rule would read "transform her lead model". Regardless, the rule is telling us how to update her on-board physical representation.



** - (Vegas, Baby!)

Repeating it does not make it correct. The rule says, "replaced". And she cannot be replaced without being removed..........................

Ready to get off the merry-go-round?

don_mondo wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:But you aren't loosing your HQ choice, it's not dead it has had it's stats changed. You don't loose a model, it just becomes totally useless.

Is Celestine still on the table? Yes or no. If no, apply MI.

Yes she is, just in Squig form. She is still under your control which suggests her brain is working the same as before so she is still St. C.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:No, it's named "Squig".
And no one is saying the Squig isn't placed. There's just a counter for St. C as well.

Well they could hardly write out the names of every IC character with the squig statline.

I understand what you are saying Don but there is difference between taking the model off the board and substituting it. It is a far more specific situation then rfp and rfpaac, so much so that the necron FAQ had to mention it.

So shall we look at it like this, models can be
Destroyed
Removed from play (possibly with rfpaac as a subset of this)
Replaced

Even as it stands the saint doesn't get get to come back from it all, so why this time permissive ruleset and all does MI happen?

A Town Called Malus wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:But you aren't loosing your HQ choice, it's not dead it has had it's stats changed. You don't loose a model, it just becomes totally useless.

Is Celestine still on the table? Yes or no. If no, apply MI.

Yes she is, just in Squig form. She is still under your control which suggests her brain is working the same as before so she is still St. C.

Excpet that you replaced her, per the rule. If I replace your cantalope with watermelon, is the cantalope still on your plate? (eating breakfast, guess what I'm having?)

Anyways, round and round we go. So I'm getting off the merry-go-round unless someone actually brings up a new point.

Welp, I just wanted to say "I agree with X" again, but here's a point that might be new -

There's usually two sides to these 10-pagers, and the same people tend to be on the same side.

The key element to the clumping seems to be an adherence to a convention vs. attempting to change the convention to fit new data points.

Basically, if we accept the Necron FAQ as a new data point telling us "converted != removed", we'll end up one place. If we however adhere to our previously agreed on definition of "RFP" and treat the Necron FAQ as a specific exception, we'll end up somewhere else.

I like regularity, I don't like data point outliers, if I see one I need to change my theory to fit the empirical data. Doesn't matter how attractive that theory was. To me.

Others, welp, they're of the opinion that outliers are often actually "mistakes", which while that doesn't work for particle physics certainly is a valid position to take w/regard to a large disorganized and very complex ruleset.

Electro wrote:I would say the question should come when the squig St. Celestine is killed.

Since the squig has no wargear or special rules (ie MI) the squig is permanent death

So when you removed the model from play, you dont thibk it triggers a rule that activates when you remove the model frm play?

You dont "replace the model from play", as that is a nonsense phrase - in order to replace the St C model with the squig you have to remove the St C model from play. At which point her special rule kicks in.

Please show me the rules and pg numbers that back up what you are saying nos.

to say i pick up my model and since it has been removed from the table i get a counter is nonsense.

So when the rule of a power says replaced that "clearly" means something else. so Replaced from play is perfectly viable since that is what the rule says.

Wars over, dude. Let it go. We understand your position. We don't agree with it. This is where we agree to disagree.

Grimgar314 wrote:With zogworts curse the model is not killed or removed from play. Its statline special rules and wargear change. That is not being removed from play, it is being altered.

It says the model is replaced with a squig and the squig has its own profile.
It never says once, with the exception of a descriptive transform in the beginning, that the models stats or abilities are ever changed. The actual workings of the rule state, and this is going to be word for word lifted from the ork codex next to me.

"the target model is replaced with an angry Squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the Squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an independant character that counts as infantry."

It doesnt once say that the target character has its profile changed it says that the character that was there is replaced with a squig that has its own profile (a.k.a the character is removed and a squig is placed instead in its place).

nosferatu1001 wrote:So when you removed the model from play, you dont thibk it triggers a rule that activates when you remove the model frm play?

You dont "replace the model from play", as that is a nonsense phrase - in order to replace the St C model with the squig you have to remove the St C model from play. At which point her special rule kicks in.

Do the changes to her stats and removal of special rules from squigification occur before or after you switch models? Won't they come into play as soon as the result of the dice off is resolved, so before you physically switch the model?

If that is true then she loses her abilities before being removed from the table and cannot leave a counter.

you are inferring Removal when removal is not wrote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:Wars over, dude. Let it go. We understand your position. We don't agree with it. This is where we agree to disagree.

Dont get me wrong pretre we both know i play sisters also and would love to have ST.c be unsquigable.

i also play orks zogwart included. but there are no rules or abilties that say RFP in ZWC.

just because you are physically taking the model of the table does not mean MI kicks in due to the fact RFP is something cause by an ability that Explicitly says so.

And we have yet another thread going in circles. We shall call this, dice off or discuss with your opponent before the game. Now lets find a new topic to go in circles over. Anyone up for another round of EL and Sweeping Advance?

Not to keep this going but...

Assuming that she doesn't get to respawn, what happens when Celetine is squigged?

Does the Ork player get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does she get a KP? Or do both sides get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does Celestine get to respawn since the squig-Celestine has been removed as a casualty?
What happens if Zogwart squigs the squig? (Ok, that one was a joke, but the other ones are serious. )

Happyjew wrote:Anyone up for another round of EL and Sweeping Advance?

No.

Amerikon wrote:Not to keep this going but...

Assuming that she doesn't get to respawn, what happens when Celetine is squigged?

Does the Ork player get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does she get a KP? Or do both sides get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does Celestine get to respawn since the squig-Celestine has been removed as a casualty?
What happens if Zogwart squigs the squig? (Ok, that one was a joke, but the other ones are serious. )

The SOB get a squig to control, so they can't kill the squig on purpose but when it dies there goes your KP. If she doesn't get to use MI when the curse is used why would the squig when it says that it has no special rules or wargear other then being an IC. The orc only gets the KP when the squig is gone.

Amerikon wrote:Not to keep this going but...

Assuming that she doesn't get to respawn, what happens when Celetine is squigged?

Does the Ork player get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does she get a KP? Or do both sides get a KP?
If the SoB player kills the squig, does Celestine get to respawn since the squig-Celestine has been removed as a casualty?
What happens if Zogwart squigs the squig? (Ok, that one was a joke, but the other ones are serious. )

Any ic that gets squggled does not give up a kp till the squig dies. The squig is under the non-zogwart players so jnless a stray blast marker hits it on the same side I doubt you can kill it.

Also when you become a squig you lose all wargear and special rules.

You get a squig with a squig but you would need another squig model to replace the one you ....squiged.

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Anyone up for another round of EL and Sweeping Advance?

No.

Not just no, emphatically no.

Here lets make this extremely simply

please recite the entire rule not sections sniped out to make points.

If under ZWC it says that the character is transformed into a squig, then by the rules in the BRB considering pyschic powers and how they work, then the character becomes a squig period. I say this because ZWC is a PSA I assume, and under the BRB rules the codex section containing the rules for pychic powers is all rules, no fluff.

Anyways, onto a more important point, those of you who say that the model is the character, what about counts as? Since you are playing counts as, ST. C and dont actually have the character does MI still work, or hell, what happens when you drop ST.C and she becomes tiny little peices? Do you pick up the pile and throw it back on the table, or just replace the model with a different one?

Please accept this humble rant as a sensible reading of all 6 pages of text and a reaction of me vomiting all over my keyboard because people are putting thier fingers in thier ears, and saying nope, I cant hear you LALALALALALALLALALALALALALLALALALALALALALALA!

Cheers!

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Please show me the rules and pg numbers that back up what you are saying nos.

Show me a page definition for the word "the"

Shock, you cannot. Guess what, the game of 40k doesnt work that way

Did you, or did you not, REMOVE the model FROM PLAY? If you say "no":, you are simply lying to (try, and fail) win an argument, as it is an untenable position to hold.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So when the rule of a power says replaced that "clearly" means something else. so Replaced from play is perfectly viable since that is what the rule says.

No, it doesnt. Stop lying.

Agree to disagree, because frankly you dont have any thing worth arguing against except simple obstinance

A lot of the argument seems to be that the Celestine mode loses all wargear/rules, which is patently false.

It directly tells you to _replace_ the model with a new model. I.e. the squig. It then tells you that THAT new model (i.e. the squig) has a specific statline and no wargear/rules.

Nowhere is it said that the original model that used to be there loses all its special rules.

Celestine is not transformed or has her stats/rules changed in anyway. She is literally REPLACED with an entirely new model, with entirely new stats/rules.

And to replace her, you must physically remove the model from the board (i.e. from the game or as it would be 'from play').

nosferatu1001 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Please show me the rules and pg numbers that back up what you are saying nos.

Show me a page definition for the word "the"

Shock, you cannot. Guess what, the game of 40k doesnt work that way

Did you, or did you not, REMOVE the model FROM PLAY? If you say "no":, you are simply lying to (try, and fail) win an argument, as it is an untenable position to hold.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:So when the rule of a power says replaced that "clearly" means something else. so Replaced from play is perfectly viable since that is what the rule says.

No, it doesnt. Stop lying.

Agree to disagree, because frankly you dont have any thing worth arguing against except simple obstinance

Nice try Nos, but he actually has you here. While you are trying to distract from the rules discussion by asking him to define "the" in the rule book, he is within his right in YMDC rules to ask you to support your arguement other wise it is just an opinion, and stinks......

Anyways, back to my questions! Anyone figured it out yet? Or hey lets take a look at the full rule??? That would make thing absolutly awesome!

No Seriously post the entire rule word for word. I am not kidding that would in my opinion stop this train wreck!

Zogwort's Curse: Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig. Zogwort may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the Weirdboy psychic power chart. Choose an independent character that is within Zogwort's line of sight. If that character is within 18", both players roll a dice. If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules but is an independent character that counts as infantry.

Squig: WS4 BS0 S3 T2 W1 I3 A1 Ld 5 Sv-

Don't have the SoB rules so someone else will have to post St. C's rule

A Town Called Malus wrote:Zogwort's Curse: Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig. Zogwort may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the Weirdboy psychic power chart. Choose an independent character that is within Zogwort's line of sight. If that character is within 18", both players roll a dice. If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules but is an independent character that counts as infantry.

Squig: WS4 BS0 S3 T2 W1 I3 A1 Ld 5 Sv-

Don't have the SoB rules so someone else will have to post St. C's rule

Where is the problem? I don't get it! No really, ST.C is a squig...... thats it..... yea you remove the model, because it is being replaced.... which means that the first part, "Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig." Is rule not fluff under PSA's and BRB rules regarding them. SO YES ST.C is now the squig model! Yay! that one is solved!!!

White Dwarf wrote: Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. Roll a D6 at the start of each of your subsequent turns. If the result is "X" place her within "X" of the counter with "X" wounds restored. If Celestine would be placed within 1" of another model, move her by the minimum possible distance so she is no longer within 1". Celestine can act normally in a turn in which she 'resurrects'. Celestine does not award kill points to the enemy if she is alive on the battlefield at the end of the game

Certain parts [i]replaced[/i[ with "X" for obvios reasons.

SoB FAQ wrote:Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

Happyjew wrote:

White Dwarf wrote: Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died'. Roll a D6 at the start of each of your subsequent turns. If the result is "X" place her within "X" of the counter with "X" wounds restored. If Celestine would be placed within 1" of another model, move her by the minimum possible distance so she is no longer within 1". Celestine can act normally in a turn in which she 'resurrects'. Celestine does not award kill points to the enemy if she is alive on the battlefield at the end of the game

Certain parts [i]replaced[/i[ with "X" for obvios reasons.

SoB FAQ wrote:Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

So her rule works where she is removed as a casualty, either by normal means (shooting, CC etc.) or by suffering a Remove from Play attack.

And thus the argument. nos and rigeld (yes I know they are one person ) claim that since, the unit "St. Celestine" is no longer in play as such, she must be Removed from Play. The counter-argument is that she is still in play albeit with a new statline, wargear, and rules.

Happyjew wrote:And thus the argument. nos and rigeld (yes I know they are one person ) claim that since, the unit "St. Celestine" is no longer in play as such, she must be Removed from Play. The counter-argument is that she is still in play albeit with a new statline, wargear, and rules.

And she's less pretty.

Unless you're into squigs.

Which is perfectly fine if you keep it to yourself. You sicko.

You know why orks don't wear armor? Because squigs can hear it clanking a mile off.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:Zogwort's Curse: Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig. Zogwort may use his curse as a psychic power instead of rolling on the Weirdboy psychic power chart. Choose an independent character that is within Zogwort's line of sight. If that character is within 18", both players roll a dice. If the Ork player scores higher, the target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the squig model. It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules but is an independent character that counts as infantry.

Squig: WS4 BS0 S3 T2 W1 I3 A1 Ld 5 Sv-

Don't have the SoB rules so someone else will have to post St. C's rule

Where is the problem? I don't get it! No really, ST.C is a squig...... thats it..... yea you remove the model, because it is being replaced.... which means that the first part, "Old Zogwort has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig." Is rule not fluff under PSA's and BRB rules regarding them. SO YES ST.C is now the squig model! Yay! that one is solved!!!

How is that a rule not fluff? What are you babbling about with regards to PSAs in the BRB?

This comes down to a question we are starting to see arise more and more often:

Is RFP different from RFPaaC?

Replacement effects (that is, effects that replace a model) are definitely NOT RFPaaC. This is in an FAQ. The only way Celestine can recover from being replaced is if you assume that a replacement effect removes a model from play, but not as a casualty.

This decision has other implications. For example, no necron model will be able to reanimate from JotWW if you decide that RFP is a different thing.

Appealing to simplicity and consistency, I think each of these classifications should be aggregated, because it is the simplest solution and it is the easiest for players to understand. JotWW would thus become a RFPaaC. All replacement effects (via the FAQ) do not remove models as casualties, but instead replace them (which means the model simply becomes represented by another in gaming terms).

The RaW is genuinely contradictory and confusing, and even thought ymmv, you'llget better mileage out of a consistent system rather than a complicated one with multiple, single-instance exceptions.

A Town Called Malus wrote:So her rule works where she is removed as a casualty, either by normal means (shooting, CC etc.) or by suffering a Remove from Play attack.

There is no such thing defined as "removed from play attacks" for WH40k though. Neither is the term "replace" defined as being something different than removing a model. You can not replace a model without removing it.

1) Either MI works like everliving (exact same wording suggests so), then Celestine can not come back from becoming a squig or a chaos spawn. In turn everliving would also work against getting hit by a SAG, JotWW or similar effects.

2) MI does not work like everliving, then it actually works of the model leaving the game for whatever reason. Replacing a model includes leaving the game. Since this would lead to a number of Squigs or Chaosspawns off the same Model, i'd rather think this is not intended.

Bottom line, talk with your opponent before the game.

Kitzz and Jidmah, very good, this is indeed the crux of the matter - the lingering uncertainty over whether RFP and RFPaaC are well defined and distinct, or loosely defined and interchangeable.

Any decision made here will set a precedent for that argument, and while we're only going to get St. Celestine turned into a squig some half-dozen times between now and the heat-death of the universe, we're likely to have a half-dozen Necron casualties from JotWW in the very next Necron/SW matchup. So, nobody wants to take a soft stance on this one, in case it gets used against them down the line.

looks like one of those roll off things, after all.

I guess I was wrong earlier. Also, when does this ever come up, because, who uses Old Zogwort, and the chances of playing a Sisters of Battle Player at the same time?

:O (I kid.)

I have seen a game with Old Zog once and I have never played against a SoB player. (Having actually seen one at a tournament other than myself. I see myself all the time.)

(Having actually seen one at a tournament other than myself. I see myself all the time.)

I know a good eye doctor if you ever stop seeing yourself =)

Also, along the road to madness, what if I used Dante against St.C and now she has lower leadership or w/e the heck that mask thing does. And my opponent actually had a different St. C model that had a sad face on it that he calls Sad St. C. Does he get both a token as well as a 2nd different saint C? The origional one was replaced!

Umm. Yeah, you don't replace the model when Dante uses his power, so there wouldn't be multiple St Cs.

As above. The stats are lowered, nothing else happens.

But if she dies and comes back does she still have negative effects. Or is she a new model. if you do say she comes back with negative modifiers when would they go away. If ever. And what rule would be used as a precedent.

There is no indication that it would go away after she dies. Dante's rule says 'For the remainder of the battle.'

Ahh was not familiar with Dante.

I think to be fair she should still come back when the squig dies... come back as a squig...

Now hypothetical she under the effects of Dante then she is squiged, now if she came back and you got a squig (your opinion not mine.). Would dante effect the squig or st.c since she has been replaced.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:Now hypothetical she under the effects of Dante then she is squiged, now if she came back and you got a squig (your opinion not mine.). Would dante effect the squig or st.c since she has been replaced.

The squig would not be affected since Dante's power affects a IC model

Can we just let this thread die? Geeze.

(the squig is an IC)

You obviously missed the bold text. Dante's power works on a MODEL. Is the squig the MODEL that Dante used his power on? No, the St Celestine MODEL is.

Real quick, for nos/rigeld.

1. If St C can use MI to come back from being a squig, does the squig model get removed?
2. If not, can she be squigified while there is already a former St C squig on the table?
3. Also, does every time she gets squigified, and the squig killed does the Ork player get a KP?

Happyjew wrote:Real quick, for nos/rigeld.

1. If St C can use MI to come back from being a squig, does the squig model get removed?
2. If not, can she be squigified while there is already a former St C squig on the table?
3. Also, does every time she gets squigified, and the squig killed does the Ork player get a KP?

These three have already been answered in this thread.

1) Of course not.
2) Yes.
3) Of course.

pretre wrote:These three have already been answered in this thread..

I tend to lose tracks of the various question being asked/answered once a thread hits 5+ pages. If it gives me more KP (especially in Annihilation) then she can come back all she wants. As well as Necrons, Thrawn, Yarrick, etc.

pretre wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Real quick, for nos/rigeld.

1. If St C can use MI to come back from being a squig, does the squig model get removed?
2. If not, can she be squigified while there is already a former St C squig on the table?
3. Also, does every time she gets squigified, and the squig killed does the Ork player get a KP?

These three have already been answered in this thread.

1) Of course not.
2) Yes.
3) Of course.

What he said.

Thawn isnt an IC, ever.

Happyjew wrote:And thus the argument. nos and rigeld (yes I know they are one person ) claim that since, the unit "St. Celestine" is no longer in play as such, she must be Removed from Play. The counter-argument is that she is still in play albeit with a new statline, wargear, and rules.

Actually going by Nos' post count, he is actually 4 people (each of whom have absolutely no time to be rigeld2).

nosferatu1001 wrote:So when you removed the model from play, you dont thibk it triggers a rule that activates when you remove the model frm play?

You dont "replace the model from play", as that is a nonsense phrase - in order to replace the St C model with the squig you have to remove the St C model from play. At which point her special rule kicks in.

Coming back to it, when does the target model become a squig directly after the roll off but before you place the model. So the target model lose all wargear or special rules or has none, This all happens before you get the squig model to replace the target model and before you remove the target model from the table therefore MI cannot kick in before the rule that removes special rules. 1) roll off zog wins target is squig 2) target gain squig stats 3)model is replaced. Everyone on the MI side is ignoring that the as soon as you win the target is a squig, not when you pick up St C so before you can remove her she lose MI

The Squig does not have Special Rules.

St. Celestine still has her special rules.

This, which was my error in a previous thread, too.

You remove Celestine, all her rules intact, and put a squig model (Angry Squig, actually) where she was, which has no special rules other than being an IC.

Wow, this is still going?

DeathReaper has the patience of a saint

But seriously, I don't see how there is any confusion about this?

1) St. Celestine is placed on the table - her rule makes a constant check every phase "Has St. Celestine been removed from play?"
2) As soon as that statement becomes true, for any reason, her rules kick into effect. If the model 'St. Celestine' is no longer on the table she has, by definition, been removed from play.
3) The act of replacing her with a squig (or a SM Sergeant, Great Gargant, Thunderhawk, etc) have no bearing on the situation as her special rule has already been satisfied.
4) You can then have a squig, and a St. Celestine on the table at the same time (as silly as it sounds).

It might not make sense from a fluff perspective, but this is exactly what the rules say. It doesn't care how she's removed from play, it just cares that she's removed from play. And, as DeathReaper has been saying for 8 pages, if the St. Celestine model was on the table, and now isn't, then St. Celestine has been removed from play.

My 2 cents.

DoW

As a compromise, I would allow the squig to benefit from the MI rule. It makes more sense than having both Saint Celestine and Squig Celestine on the table anyway.

Would make even more sense then having St Celestine and 4+ Squig Celestine's on the board

Happyjew wrote:Would make even more sense then having St Celestine and 4+ Squig Celestine's on the board

Yeah, because there's a good chance that a SoB player will play an ork player who has Zogwort and that ork player will win 4 contested even up rolls and zogwort will survive that whole time.

The whole thing is silly.

It is highly unlikely that my scenario will actually happen, however, if I'm the SoB player, it is much, much more likely. Dang dice never rolling over a 3...

DogOfWar wrote:Wow, this is still going?

DeathReaper has the patience of a saint

But seriously, I don't see how there is any confusion about this?

1) St. Celestine is placed on the table - her rule makes a constant check every phase "Has St. Celestine been removed from play?"
2) As soon as that statement becomes true, for any reason, her rules kick into effect. If the model 'St. Celestine' is no longer on the table she has, by definition, been removed from play.
3) The act of replacing her with a squig (or a SM Sergeant, Great Gargant, Thunderhawk, etc) have no bearing on the situation as her special rule has already been satisfied.
4) You can then have a squig, and a St. Celestine on the table at the same time (as silly as it sounds).

It might not make sense from a fluff perspective, but this is exactly what the rules say. It doesn't care how she's removed from play, it just cares that she's removed from play. And, as DeathReaper has been saying for 8 pages, if the St. Celestine model was on the table, and now isn't, then St. Celestine has been removed from play.

My 2 cents.

DoW

Please show me how #1) is true, how is it Constantly "on" what rules backs this up. there is only a few things that i know of that Remove from Play, Jotww,SA(not technically no but same effect, even though one could argue that since it does not say SA it can not i guess) Since ST.c is jump infantry she is immune to JOTWW. so that leaves SA tess labs maybe a DE thing or two, SAG. these are wargear, rules that SAY RFP. this is what her faq contributes to. to say her rules which are always on is incredulous at best. but have to be trigger by some sort of death/removal mechanic is true.

Taking her off the table by physically doing so, does not have an in game rule therefor does not apply to her in game rules.

end result she becomes a squig that cant resurrect.

Dude, let it go.

I did till someone brought it back up. i was content at letting it die.

I Still wish to see actual rules that confirm the oppositions side, but I won't hold my breath.

I am the only person who plays either model ZW or ST.c.

How would you take what is written in the ork codex show it to a person and then say, it also says RFP in there somewhere. while trying to argue St.c Comesback.

But unless someone wants to drag this thread back up, i don't care to post on it anymore.

I run good old Zog, but not often.

SM players have a habit of ignoring him via hoods etc, and my other usual opponent plays Psyker-heavy Eldar, which means he will have committed suicide by turn 3...

As far as i'm concerned Celestine makes a lovely squig, and doesn't come back, but the owner of St C will never agree to that (for obvious reasons) , so it always goes to a dice off.

Ascalam wrote:...so it always goes to a dice off.

It shouldn't, as MI kicks in when St. Celestine is removed from play, which is exactly what happens when you remove her and place an angry squig onto the table.

DeathReaper wrote:It shouldn't, as MI kicks in when St. Celestine is removed from play, which is exactly what happens when you remove her and place an angry squig onto the table.

Oh my God, why didn't someone say this earlier, it's all clear now!!

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
How would you take what is written in the ork codex show it to a person and then say, it also says RFP in there somewhere. while trying to argue St.c Comesback.

So st. C is still in play?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Please show me how #1) is true, how is it Constantly "on" what rules backs this up.

That's an easy one. How is a SM's BS4 "constantly on"? How is a Plague Marine's FnP "constantly on"?

They're traits and statistics the model possesses. They are constantly in effect until something takes place that calls for them. Think of it like a perpetual if-then loop in programming.

Also, if a model is in play at time 'A' and is then not in play at time 'B', then that model has been removed from play. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but how is that even confusing at all?

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:I'm not trying to be a jerk, but how is that even confusing at all?

oh, gee, i dunno, maybe because St. Celestine is what I'm concerned about, not the particular lead model she's being represented by?

I have a question - you're playing in a GT, you actually expect the TO to buy this? Maybe after your opponent shows him the Squig FAQ for RP? Seriously? Or are we just arguing abstract RAW, in which case your protestations of manifest obviousness might have some merit.

Randall Turner wrote:I have a question - you're playing in a GT, you actually expect the TO to buy this?

They should, as that is what the RAW say.

The Necrons Monolith.

Portal to Exile OMNOMNOMNOM no MI save for you! And heck, it even says remove from play as a casualty too! XD


In all seriousness gentlemen and ladies, St Clair doesnt get her MI save. Zogworts Curse is worded poorly too, but no matter which way you swing it, she has no special rules and as such, MI cant trigger as she no longer has that special rule.

DeathReaper wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:I have a question - you're playing in a GT, you actually expect the TO to buy this?

They should, as that is what the RAW say.

Nuff said.

My apologies for re-stirring the hornet's nest. I think we're done here.

DoW

Xzerios wrote:The Necrons Monolith.

Portal to Exile OMNOMNOMNOM no MI save for you! And heck, it even says remove from play as a casualty too! XD


In all seriousness gentlemen and ladies, St Clair doesnt get her MI save. Zogworts Curse is worded poorly too, but no matter which way you swing it, she has no special rules and as such, MI cant trigger as she no longer has that special rule.

Actually Exile Portal would allow MI since it is RfP.

Xzerios wrote:In all seriousness gentlemen and ladies, St Clair doesnt get her MI save. Zogworts Curse is worded poorly too, but no matter which way you swing it, she has no special rules and as such, MI cant trigger as she no longer has that special rule.

Read the Thread.

St. Celestine has her special rules.

The Angry Squig has no special rules.

DeathReaper wrote:

Ascalam wrote:...so it always goes to a dice off.

It shouldn't, as MI kicks in when St. Celestine is removed from play, which is exactly what happens when you remove her and place an angry squig onto the table.

Unless it's functional identical to Everliving, in which case a simple Boon of Mutation would kill her for good, even though it removes the target as casualty.

Same wording and the nonesense multiple St.Squigs/St.Chaos spawns heavily imply so.

So it actually is a dice off - just for a different reason.

@THE_GODLYNESS

How about you actually show us where "removed from play" is defined in Warhammer 40k?
You entire argument is based on something that doesn't exist. But of course, you have ignored that multiple times now.

Quick question, on a similar topic, since we are talking about St Celestine here, is she able to comeback from being swept? MI does not specifically state she can come back, however, she is no longer on the table and as such would have been "removed from play". If it has been answered in this thread I apologize.

Sweeping Advance is Removed as a Casualty / Destroyed, so she specifically gets her MI.

pretre wrote:Sweeping Advance is Removed as a Casualty / Destroyed, so she specifically gets her MI.

[sarcasm]Oh good, then my Everliving models can stand back up after being swept.[/sarcasm] Destroyed is NOT the same as RFPaaC. The two are completely different, otherwise, EL models can come back from being swept, Thawn can come back, St C can come back (however her rule is differnet, hence the reason I asked).

"The falling back unit is destroyed...The destroyed unit is removed immediately."

Celestine gets MI when removed as a casualty or removed from play. So there you go.

However, if she makes her MI roll to come back, she has been rescued which goes against SA. Especially since, MI does not SPECIFICALLY counter SA.

I am not familiar with St. Celestine's rules at all, but if the rule doesn't specify that it saves you from Sweeping Advances then it doesn't. It must specifically say it can save you from Sweeping Advances, otherwise, "...no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage...".

ToBeWilly wrote:I am not familiar with St. Celestine's rules at all,

Let me stop you right there. You might want to read up on StC first. Her rules allow her to come back from any effect that is RfPaaC and RfP with a FAQ on the subject. Basically, if she leaves the table for any reason, she gets back up. I see where you're coming from on the SA specific thing, but her rule is pretty specific that she always gets to roll to come back.

pretre wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:I am not familiar with St. Celestine's rules at all,

Let me stop you right there. You might want to read up on StC first. Her rules allow her to come back from any effect that is RfPaaC and RfP with a FAQ on the subject. Basically, if she leaves the table for any reason, she gets back up. I see where you're coming from on the SA specific thing, but her rule is pretty specific that she always gets to roll to come back.

I'm confused. St. Celestine's rules specifically says she can roll to come back after she has been removed from a Sweeping Advance, which is what Sweeping Advance requires, without specifically saying it?

pretre wrote:Let me stop you right there. You might want to read up on StC first. Her rules allow her to come back from any effect that is RfPaaC and RfP with a FAQ on the subject. Basically, if she leaves the table for any reason, she gets back up. I see where you're coming from on the SA specific thing, but her rule is pretty specific that she always gets to roll to come back.

Just a rules lawyer interjection - while your logic as far as it goes is valid, it's built on the foundation of a clear and specific differentiation between RFP and RFPaaC that exists mostly in the minds of some people on this site.

To others, the FAQ on StC's MI instead illustrated that the phrases RFP and RFPaaC were less specific and more casual wording, NOT to be taken as a basis for further reasoning.

(Because this silly thread hasn't gone on long enough!)

No, her rule does not.

Neither does the SA rule say 'only rules that specifically mention SA work', it says 'unless otherwise specified'.

Celestine's rule 'otherwise specifies' that she gets to come back from any rule that RFP or RFPAAC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Randall Turner wrote:Just a rules lawyer interjection - while your logic as far as it goes is valid, it's built on the foundation of a clear and specific differentiation between RFP and RFPaaC that exists mostly in the minds of some people on this site.

Actually, my interpretation is the broad one that says: The FAQ proves that GW is really lose with this kind of thing and meant for StC to come back from anythiing and RfP, RFPaaC, Destroyed and ReplaceFromPlay (Lol) are all really the same thing when it comes to Celestine.

To others, the FAQ on StC's MI instead illustrated that the phrases RFP and RFPaaC were less specific and more casual wording, NOT to be taken as a basis for further reasoning.

Basic agreement.

(Because this silly thread hasn't gone on long enough!)

Sigh. I know.

Physically taking your model does not trigger Mi. To say she is removed from play by doing so is just funny now. And where is RFP described its not but that is a different 10 page thread. But only 2-3 abilities/wargear/special rules mention RFP. Zwc is not one of them. Replacing a model is physically taking the model off the table and putting another one in its place. (your brought this pretre all your fault lol. )

Right, Replacing a model is removing one model from play and putting another one into play.

You are creating a distinction that doesn't exist, THE_GODLYNESS.

Either way, I'm unsubscribing from this one.

Miraculous Intervention. Every time Celestine is removed as a casualty, place a counter to mark the spot where she 'died.' WD p103.
If she has been turned into a Squid, did she 'DIE?'
No, then she is just an 'angry Squid.'

And yes I play both Orks and SoB's.

Ray Age, you're neglecting the FAQ:

Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

No, I'm just pointing out the part that you place a counter to mark the spot where she 'DIED.'
So where would that be?
I know the FAQ says she can, but all of the rquirements for MI should still be met...like her dying.

Ray Age wrote:No, I'm just pointing out the part that you place a counter to mark the spot where she 'DIED.'
So where would that be?
I know the FAQ says she can, but all of the rquirements for MI should still be met...like her dying.

Well, extrapolating from the FAQ, it would be whereever she was 'removed from play'.

As long as we're staring at RaW, does anyone have an argument that prevents her from getting to roll to come back for each time she died?

Happyjew wrote:Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

Is Zogwart's curse an "attack"?

It certainly doesn't fit the standard for a psychic shooting attack.

No, it's not an "attack: It is a Psychic Power, but not a PSA.

It's not an attack, because no wounds are caused.
It has range and needs LOS, but no Str, and no saves allowed.
Hmmm...

Ray Age wrote:It's not an attack, because no wounds are caused.

Irrelevant. JotWW, Paroxysm...

Attacks do not always cause wounds.

It's neither a shooting attack nor a close combat attack though. The ones you mentioned are.

Zog's curse is a psychic power. However it is not a psychic shooting attack, doesn't cause wounds, etc. so it is not an attack per se.
Allowing St. C to stand back up after being squig-ified (I love that word), is broken in favor of the Orks, as they can leech KP off of her, giving the Ork's an unfair advantage.

Issues we seem to need to clarify:
Removing from play =/= Dying or removing as casualty.
Replace =/= Remove from play.

Zogwort's rule specifically states "he has the ability to transform a powerful enemy into a squig."

It states, verbatim, "the target model is replaced with an angry Squig under the control of your opponent... It has the profile below and no wargear or special rules, but is an IC that counts as infantry."

Zogwort's effect triggers before St C's. St C's ability, if it were even a valid response, is a response to an effect that has both already occurred and stripped her of any special abilities and wargear. This is where Zogwort's rule trumps it, for lack of a better term. Her ability cannot trigger because it no longer exists.

TheHarleqwin wrote:Replace =/= Remove from play.

Why?

The effect is the same, the model has been removed from play.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:Replace =/= Remove from play.

Why?

The effect is the same, the model has been removed from play.

DoW

For the same reason the "remove from play" is not "remove from play as a casualty". It's a matter of wording. The way I have always played Zog, and the way everyone else who has played against me have understood the ruling, the character itself is still in play. It has been stripped of rules and wargear, but it's still effectively the same IC. The physical model has been swapped out. That's it. St C is still in play, has remained in play, and will remain in play until something happens to the squig because St C is the squig.

EDIT - And it's [erfectly fine and all that the same few people have repeated the same "I lifted my model off the table, I get to roll for MI" for the duration of the thread. I haven't read anything that makes a sound argument for it, however. If you can show me something that shows a precedence for St C's ability to take priority over having the ability stripped, I'm certainly open to the idea.

TheHarleqwin wrote:St C is still in play, has remained in play, and will remain in play until something happens to the squig because St C is the squig.

Is the squig named St. C?

rigeld2 wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:St C is still in play, has remained in play, and will remain in play until something happens to the squig because St C is the squig.

Is the squig named St. C?

Does that ultimately matter? Zogwort's Curse states it transforms the enemy into a squig. By that logic, yes, it is functionally that IC.

rigeld2 wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:St C is still in play, has remained in play, and will remain in play until something happens to the squig because St C is the squig.

Is the squig named St. C?

This is what clinches it for me

St. C is not in play anymore. Even if all the fluff in the world describes her as being 'transformed', the model named 'St. Celestine' has been taken off the table and removed from play.

Just because that's how you and your FLGS has always played it doesn't make it correct. In fact many situations where people have been playing a certain way have been categorically incorrect until someone highlights the issue. My FLGS had non-tank vehicles ramming things all over the place until we finally realize we couldn't do that.

Even if the verbiage is different, the effect is exactly the same. Unless St. C is still on the table, she has been removed from play, and her special rules kick into effect.

DoW

TheHarleqwin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:St C is still in play, has remained in play, and will remain in play until something happens to the squig because St C is the squig.

Is the squig named St. C?

Does that ultimately matter? Zogwort's Curse states it transforms the enemy into a squig. By that logic, yes, it is functionally that IC.

Absolutely it does.

If St. C. isn't on the table, then St. C. hasn't lost any rules - the squig on the table has no rules, but there's no stripping of the rules from St. C.
Since St. C. isn't in play, she must have been removed from play.
St. C. still has the MI rule.
MI kicks in when she's removed from play.

TheHarleqwin wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:St C is still in play, has remained in play, and will remain in play until something happens to the squig because St C is the squig.

Is the squig named St. C?

Does that ultimately matter? Zogwort's Curse states it transforms the enemy into a squig. By that logic, yes, it is functionally that IC.

Gotta be realistic for a second. You aren't actually transforming the St C. model into an Angry Squig model when this effect takes place. There has to be a degree of abstraction. A human player is taking the St. C model and removing it from the table to be placed in a nice foam tray.

All the 'transformation' stuff is fluff. The rules state that you 'replace' the models. Which entails picking up one model and putting down another.

If a player removes the St. C model, and it's no longer on the table, then it has been removed from play.

DoW

From everything I have read in the thread it appears people for MI coming into play are just blatantly ignoring (or just trolling) the 1st section of the rule explaining the IC is 'transformed' meaning the (in-game) form of StC is altered into the form of a squig. As it is not physically possible to alter the form of the physical figure (unless we bring fire or a hammer into the equation) it HAS to be replaced with a relevant one to represent the transformation.
Also, it can be argued with the rest of the ZC description, the term 'model' is referring to the actual physical model, as the rule states "you must provide the squig model" so the 'transformed' term still applies.
Also, the reason, as already stated, that the statline says 'squig' because it would be ridiculous to make a statline for every IC in the 40k universe, plus the squig is referred to as 'it' as it's easier to class it rather than saying 'he/she/it'...as IC's are male, female and non-gender specific.

Long story short, the IC cursed remains on the table but the GW model is changed to represent the transformation.

Bloodfever wrote:Long story short, the IC cursed remains on the table but the GW model is changed to represent the transformation.

See that's where I disagree.

The 'transformation' aspect is fluff-based in nature and doesn't describe an actual rule in the game. The physical operation associated with the rule is the 'replacement' of the models. Unless it can be shown how the procedure for 'transformation' is described —without using known terms like 'replacement' or 'removed from play'— then we are safe to assume it is treated as removing the model and replacing it with a different model. As soon as the model is removed/replaced, then MI takes place.

DoW

Bloodfever wrote:From everything I have read in the thread it appears people for MI coming into play are just blatantly ignoring (or just trolling) the 1st section of the rule explaining the IC is 'transformed' meaning the (in-game) form of StC is altered into the form of a squig.

Yes, when discussing rules fluff is often ignored as it's irrelevant.

Also, the reason, as already stated, that the statline says 'squig' because it would be ridiculous to make a statline for every IC in the 40k universe, plus the squig is referred to as 'it' as it's easier to class it rather than saying 'he/she/it'...as IC's are male, female and non-gender specific.

"The squig model uses the same name as the IC with the rest of the statline as follows:"
Yeah, that's an absolutely ridiculous method.

No more than physically taking the model off the table and claiming it has been removed from play. When the its not mentioned nor inferred in zwc.

DogOfWar wrote:

Bloodfever wrote:Long story short, the IC cursed remains on the table but the GW model is changed to represent the transformation.

See that's where I disagree.

The 'transformation' aspect is fluff-based in nature and doesn't describe an actual rule in the game. The physical operation associated with the rule is the 'replacement' of the models. Unless it can be shown how the procedure for 'transformation' is described —without using known terms like 'replacement' or 'removed from play'— then we are safe to assume it is treated as removing the model and replacing it with a different model. As soon as the model is removed/replaced, then MI takes place.

DoW

The term 'transformation' is used in the rule description and it is NOT decribed as removing the IC, so I think it is more a case of you disproving the rule wording rather than me having to prove a lack of assumed 'removed' rule.

Remove and replaced are 2 very different things. 'Transform' as the curse does as described in the rules, express a change in model and statline, not IC. To create an analogy on the matter, you don't see, say the transformer Optimus Prime, being removed from existence and having a Truck spawned in his place when he transforms. His Physical structure is altered but he himself, remains the same being.

Bloodfever wrote:The term 'transformation' is used in the rule description and it is NOT decribed as removing the IC, so I think it is more a case of you disproving the rule wording rather than me having to prove a lack of assumed 'removed' rule.

Remove and replaced are 2 very different things. 'Transform' as the curse does as described in the rules, express a change in model and statline, not IC. To create an analogy on the matter, you don't see, say the transformer Optimus Prime, being removed from existence and having a Truck spawned in his place when he transforms. His Physical structure is altered but he himself, remains the same being.

Actually replacing St. Celestine with an angry squig removes St. Celestine from play.

Just like if you were to replace Optimus Prime with Sentinel Prime. is Optimus Prime still there? No Sentinel Prime is, as Optimus Prime has been replaced and is no longer in that location.

Since replace also means remove to you people the ork player must get a kill point when an IC is turned into a squig

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:No more than physically taking the model off the table and claiming it has been removed from play. When the its not mentioned nor inferred in zwc.

So you're removing the model from play, but not removing the model from play.

That's what you're going to go with?

DeathReaper wrote:Actually replacing St. Celestine with an angry squig removes St. Celestine from play.

Completely disregarding EVERYTHING mentioned, churning out the same old claims without anything to back it up.

DeathReaper wrote:Just like if you were to replace Optimus Prime with Sentinel Prime. is Optimus Prime still there? No Sentinel Prime is, as Optimus Prime has been replaced and is no longer in that location.

This is just ridiculous, how can 2 beings, obviously their own entities, being obviously shown as that, together, at the same time, have ANY bearing in the eplaination?

I digress, StC and the curse squig are the same entity, just in different forms....just as when melted, ice can become water, the same 'object' for lack of a better word, just with different properties.

rigeld2 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:No more than physically taking the model off the table and claiming it has been removed from play. When the its not mentioned nor inferred in zwc.

So you're removing the model from play, but not removing the model from play.

That's what you're going to go with?

In a way yes.

I am removing the model from play by physically doing so.

I am not removing the model from play using any rules which apply to 40k. Which is what your trying to do. You are inferring and assuming RFP is in zwc.

Bloodfever wrote:I digress, StC and the curse squig are the same entity, just in different forms....

Fluff wise, that's correct.
Rules wise, there's no basis for that statement.

They have different profiles.
They're named differently.
They're different entities.

rigeld2 wrote:

Bloodfever wrote:I digress, StC and the curse squig are the same entity, just in different forms....

Fluff wise, that's correct.
Rules wise, there's no basis for that statement.

They have different profiles.
They're named differently.
They're different entities.

If I decided to have a sex change and change my name to Lisa, I am now a girl named Lisa with different genital profiles BUT still the same person, thanks.

Gargantuan wrote:Since replace also means remove to you people the ork player must get a kill point when an IC is turned into a squig

If the battle ends and St. Celestine is not on the table, she is worth a Kill Point, Yes.

How is that different from any other unit?

I just want to be clear Rigeld and DR. Your position is:

1) Zogwart Removes Models from Play, even though that is never mentioned in his rule. Basically Replace ==Remove?
2) Zogwart's Curse is now an attack, even though it is never called that anywhere in the rules?

Really guys for trying to argue strict RAW, you are straying pretty far on this one.
Next you will claim Replace is RFP but not RFPaaC because obviously that is entirely clear here.

Additionally, If the squig was not intended to represent the model it replaces why mention it has no wargear or special abilities?