So there've been many threads about which was the wisest Primarch (Leman Russ), the strongest (Leman Russ), the best general (Leman Russ) but what about on the other side? Which primarch was the most mock-worthy?
Alpharius is tempting, while the best Primarchs have names that are obscure historical or literary references, it's pretty obvious that by the time they got to Chapter #20 everyone wanted to hit the bar so Alphy the Alpha Legionnaire was born.
Angron, the really, really angry is another safe pick.
And we all know Lion El Johnson's secret (not that there's anything wrong with it).
Looking at their records though Rogal Dorn seems the biggest joke. He was pulled off the front lines to secure the Emperor's Palace, a job he miserably failed at. The Emperor would have been killed if he'd stayed in Rogal's 'unblowupable' super fortress and as it happened got crippled for his trouble. Then Rogal defied orders, refused to reorganize his chapter and finally knowingly led them into a trap to be slaughtered as part of his plan to uh... um... something? Then all the cool kids left and formed the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars.
So I nominate Rogal Dorn as the most mock-worthy primarch.
Ferrus Manus. The absolutely most unimaginative name for a horrid chapter. I don't know how he died/was lost/whatever AND I DON'T WANT TO. I just assume he rusted away in idiocy.
Mattlov wrote:Ferrus Manus. The absolutely most unimaginative name for a horrid chapter. I don't know how he died/was lost/whatever AND I DON'T WANT TO. I just assume he rusted away in idiocy.
Yeah Fulgrim cut his head off. Also, I do not care for Bowboat Girlyman (even if I did respect him I cannot spell his last name so this is easier), the codex astartes is terrible, he is easily distracted from important things by traitor primarchs showing up and then he gets his throat slit by Fulgrim.
I also propose Fulgrim as the greatest of the useless primarchs, he is a relatively crappy character "Oh I love being perfect, I will kill this snake people, this temple is trippy I will just steal this sword from it, hey daemon in my sword, want my body" yet he managed to kill two primarchs which is better than anyone else, and he killed Rowboat Girlyman who killed Alphurius, so that is like indirectly killing Alphurius or something.
Kid_Kyoto wrote:So there've been many threads about which was the wisest Primarch (Leman Russ), the strongest (Leman Russ), the best general (Leman Russ) but what about on the other side? Which primarch was the most mock-worthy?
We have trolling mods now? Awesome.
Alpharius is tempting, while the best Primarchs have names that are obscure historical or literary references, it's pretty obvious that by the time they got to Chapter #20 everyone wanted to hit the bar so Alphy the Alpha Legionnaire was born.
Angron, the really, really angry is another safe pick.
And we all know Lion El Johnson's secret (not that there's anything wrong with it).
Alpharius is named after Alphard, the brightest star of the Hydra constellation. Although the name translates to "the solitary one", as a barium star, it is actually a double star, with a dim and almost imperceptible twin. So really, Alpharius has one of the more clever names among the Primarchs, you're just ignorant.
As for Angron, his name is borrowed from one of Spartacus' gladiators, but I agree that it's a silly choice for for a character whose defining characteristic is anger. Still, it's not like he doesn't have a good reason for his rage.
The Lion is very easy to mock not only due to the real-life inspiration of his and his Legion's names, but the fact that he was the most useless of the Primarchs. A leader who can't understand the motivations of those he commands or even incapable of recognizing whether someone is lying to him? Laughable.
Looking at their records though Rogal Dorn seems the biggest joke. He was pulled off the front lines to secure the Emperor's Palace, a job he miserably failed at. The Emperor would have been killed if he'd stayed in Rogal's 'unblowupable' super fortress and as it happened got crippled for his trouble. Then Rogal defied orders, refused to reorganize his chapter and finally knowingly led them into a trap to be slaughtered as part of his plan to uh... um... something? Then all the cool kids left and formed the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars.
So I nominate Rogal Dorn as the most mock-worthy primarch.
Dorn is a solid candidate. Mortarion is also a serious contender, falling to Chaos over a case of diarrhea, turning into the very thing he fought against on his home planet, and later getting punked by Draigo like a little bitch.
Personally, I nominate Leman Russ, since Deliverance Lost informs us he actually has dog DNA in his makeup. You could conceivably defeat his whole Legion by distracting them with Beggin' Strips, since they don't know it's not bacon.
Actually the Emperor would have lived had he not teleported to Horus' battle barge. Horus realized that the tide was turning on him fast, and he lowered his void shields to lure the Emperor into attacking. However the palace would have been breached had it not been for Sanguinius being a total boss at the Eternity Gate.
Honestly, I would say the Lion is the most disappointing to me. He was the only primarch betrayed by his own legion during the heresy, and afterwards he decided to just mope in his fortress.
Omegus wrote:Personally, I nominate Leman Russ, since Deliverance Lost informs us he actually has dog DNA in his makeup. You could conceivably defeat his whole Legion by distracting them with BeggingStrips, since they don't know it's not bacon.
Mattlov wrote:Ferrus Manus. The absolutely most unimaginative name for a horrid chapter. I don't know how he died/was lost/whatever AND I DON'T WANT TO. I just assume he rusted away in idiocy.
Yeah Fulgrim cut his head off. Also, I do not care for Bowboat Girlyman (even if I did respect him I cannot spell his last name so this is easier), the codex astartes is terrible, he is easily distracted from important things by traitor primarchs showing up and then he gets his throat slit by Fulgrim.
I also propose Fulgrim as the greatest of the useless primarchs, he is a relatively crappy character "Oh I love being perfect, I will kill this snake people, this temple is trippy I will just steal this sword from it, hey daemon in my sword, want my body" yet he managed to kill two primarchs which is better than anyone else, and he killed Rowboat Girlyman who killed Alphurius, so that is like indirectly killing Alphurius or something.
It is only suspected that Roboute Guilliman killed Alpharius, it has never been proven. Even if he did, Fulgrim putting Guilliman into stasis does not indirectly mean he killed Alpharius either.
I agree with your synapsis of Fulgrim, but not the Ultramarine Primarch. I think he's great, and there really isn't anything you can mock about him. Ultramarine hate is usually unfounded anyway.
But I would say that Lorgar is the most mockable to an extent based on his childish way of handling his dad yelling at him. But then again, I don't like him as a character anyway so I'm a little biased.
Orblivion wrote:Honestly, I would say the Lion is the most disappointing to me. He was the only primarch betrayed by his own legion during the heresy, and afterwards he decided to just mope in his fortress.
Well, he betrayed them first, so he got what was coming to him. And he's not moping, he's in a coma and on life support after his "mortal wounding" by Luther.
Orblivion wrote:Honestly, I would say the Lion is the most disappointing to me. He was the only primarch betrayed by his own legion during the heresy, and afterwards he decided to just mope in his fortress.
Well, he betrayed them first, so he got what was coming to him. And he's not moping, he's in a coma and on life support after his "mortal wounding" by Luther.
Tone is hard to convey through text, but I was really just hamming it up to rag on the guy.
Kid_Kyoto wrote:So there've been many threads about which was the wisest Primarch (Leman Russ), the strongest (Leman Russ), the best general (Leman Russ) but what about on the other side? Which primarch was the most mock-worthy?
We have trolling mods now? Awesome.
One look at my sig will tell you how seriously I take this game
Alpharius is named after Alphard, the brightest star of the Hydra constellation. Although the name translates to "the solitary one", as a barium star, it is actually a double star, with a dim and almost imperceptible twin. So really, Alpharius has one of the more clever names among the Primarchs, you're just ignorant.
His name is Alpharius, he leads the Alpha Legion. Say it with a straight face
And he makes all his recruits call themselves Alpharius, too! And after having the tempate for making primarchs for 10,000 years, he has done precisely nothing with that technology.
Mattlov wrote:Ferrus Manus. The absolutely most unimaginative name for a horrid chapter. I don't know how he died/was lost/whatever AND I DON'T WANT TO. I just assume he rusted away in idiocy.
Yeah Fulgrim cut his head off. Also, I do not care for Bowboat Girlyman (even if I did respect him I cannot spell his last name so this is easier), the codex astartes is terrible, he is easily distracted from important things by traitor primarchs showing up and then he gets his throat slit by Fulgrim.
I also propose Fulgrim as the greatest of the useless primarchs, he is a relatively crappy character "Oh I love being perfect, I will kill this snake people, this temple is trippy I will just steal this sword from it, hey daemon in my sword, want my body" yet he managed to kill two primarchs which is better than anyone else, and he killed Rowboat Girlyman who killed Alphurius, so that is like indirectly killing Alphurius or something.
It is only suspected that Roboute Guilliman killed Alpharius, it has never been proven. Even if he did, Fulgrim putting Guilliman into stasis does not indirectly mean he killed Alpharius either.
I agree with your synapsis of Fulgrim, but not the Ultramarine Primarch. I think he's great, and there really isn't anything you can mock about him. Ultramarine hate is usually unfounded anyway.
But I would say that Lorgar is the most mockable to an extent based on his childish way of handling his dad yelling at him. But then again, I don't like him as a character anyway so I'm a little biased.
Sure there is, I hate him because the codex astartes limits the number of marines allowed by each chapter, and while it may prevent a civil war, it means fewer marines all around. Also, the fear of a civil war has little justification, in the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy there hasn't been a single major revolt by space marines, with one of the most notable being the Babad war. Now, had everyone been allowed to field as large a chapter as they wanted the Astral Claws almost certainly would have been significantly larger, but odds are so would the numerous chapters arrayed against them including the Minotaurs, who were known for the rate at which they could produce marines, meaning if they could have as many marines as possible they would have been huge.
Now this isn't to say that some limiting wasn't in order, but breaking up the legions and directly limiting the strength of chapters was unnecessary, he could have limited each chapter to one world (gasp he would have to give up his mini empire), he could have had them report the rate of production, to keep them from going out of control, he could have placed a larger limit. However, all of this could have been forgiven if he didn't seem so hypocritical. He builds a mini empire and has the largest legion with some of the lightest casualties (didn't get most of his legion wiped out at Istvaan, didn't fight at Terra) during the Horus Heresy and then he has the audacity to pretty much give himself authority over everyone else and tell them to break up their legions and limit their own power? Hell you know that the Raven Guard need their power limited with their crippling losses suffered at Istvaan, or that the Blood Angels are just fine after helping defend Terra and having their primarch die against Horus. His whole idea just reeks of hipocracy.
Beyond that my hate for the Ultramarines is similar to my hate for Cadians, their models are cool I guess, and I like their capabilities, I simply hate them because they are the posterboys of their army and are generic, while constantly being called "the best."
Even Lorgar admitted he wasn't the best Primarch. He didn't like war, he was quite whiny and he was extremely insecure about the universe. Lorgar's desperate need to find some overall meaning, something truly epic to devote his life to, led to the downfall of the Imperium.
LoneLictor wrote:Even Lorgar admitted he wasn't the best Primarch. He didn't like war, he was quite whiny and he was extremely insecure about the universe. Lorgar's desperate need to find some overall meaning, something truly epic to devote his life to, led to the downfall of the Imperium.
This. In other words, freaking emos run everything. No seriously, pretty much everything bad about the Imperium's present state is his fault.
Omegus wrote:
Alpharius is named after Alphard, the brightest star of the Hydra constellation. Although the name translates to "the solitary one", as a barium star, it is actually a double star, with a dim and almost imperceptible twin. So really, Alpharius has one of the more clever names among the Primarchs, you're just ignorant.
I never knew this, but it's fething awesome. Thanks for sharing
Omegus wrote:
Personally, I nominate Leman Russ, since Deliverance Lost informs us he actually has dog DNA in his makeup. You could conceivably defeat his whole Legion by distracting them with Beggin' Strips, since they don't know it's not bacon.
Also, this is hilarious
My nomination would also be Lorgar. Not only was he singularly useless as a military leader (Which is essentially what the Primarchs were intended to be in the first place) He defied the decree of the Emperor and openly worshipped him as a God. When he finally got told off about it, he sulked and started worshipping Chaos Ultimately bringing death and destruction upon the Imperium.
Loving the story and character of Lorgar in the series so far, but for me, he is most certainly the most mock worthy.
It must suck that the Imperium is now allowed if not expected to worship the emperor as a god, pretty much because of Lorgars own actions and the book that he wrote, is the foundation for this.
Angry the Angryiest Angryus Anger Anger bloodrage.
Ignatius wrote:But I would say that Lorgar is the most mockable to an extent based on his childish way of handling his dad yelling at him. But then again, I don't like him as a character anyway so I'm a little biased.
Have you read The First Heretic? To be honest, if my dad let me get on with something for ages, then destroyed something that I had worked hard on, humiliated me, told me that I shouldn't have been doing what he was letting me do, and called me a failure, I'd be a little put out too. Even if he is a little useless at what he was supposed to do, that doesn't neccesarily mean he's mockable. He's the most likable and relateable-to Primarch, at least at first; he doesn't want to follow the path in life that he has been commanded to, but neither would I if my dad told me "Son you're going to be a sportsman, no arguing". The need to find something to believe in was literally in his genetic code.
EDIT: Especially if my dad did all of that whilst my brother, who I hated and who he had got to destroy the thing that I had worked hard on, stood smirking behind him.
As much as I like the concept of the Night Lords as a Legion - the whole terror weapon, legion of murderers, I am Batman approach...
Kurze dropped the ball.
Oh no, he has visions of his death. So he throws a tantrum. And then says these visions justified the tantrums as he's killed because he threw the damn tantrums in the first place.
He seriously couldn't see the fact that his kneejerk reaction to his vision is the cause of that result. It's almost as bad as Horus' being tempted away by the future vision thing by Erebus and failing to see that his kneejerk reaction will CAUSE that specific outcome.
And through half the Primarchs doing it the Emperor sits there, grinning like the smug git that he is because he likely knew it was going to happen and is a lousy father, really.
How hard would it have been to just take them to one side and say 'Seriously guys, don't do that. I know what happens and it's bad.'
It's like a webcomic I read a few years back where someone pointed out that Star Wars would've been much, much more different if Yoda had just chucked Anakin a pack of trojans and told him to be prepared.
DarkStarSabre wrote:It's like a webcomic I read a few years back where someone pointed out that Star Wars would've been much, much more different if Yoda had just chucked Anakin a pack of trojans and told him to be prepared.
Or if Anakin hadn't, you know, force choked the person who he was whining about being in danger of dying...
I don't know enough about Rowboat Girlyman to pass judgement, I just find the nickname hilarious.
My vote goes to Lemon Grass-Sorry, Leman Russ. He perhaps did the most to mess things up. "OMG PSYKERS R EVIL U SHOODENT BE YOOSIN DEM TROLOLOLOLOL" "Hang on Lemon, you use psykers too" "NO WE DONT WE USE SUPAH SPESHAL SNOWFLAKE STORM SON MARINES WHO USE THE POWAH OF WOLF WOLF AROOOOOOO!!!11!!11!!ONE!!!1"
Yeah...
Also, Fulgrim (the novel) actually made me cry. Possibly the most tragic Black Library novel out there.
Who the hell said Russ was the wisest, strongest, and best general among them? Magnus (pre-Heresy) was the wisest, Ferrus Manus/Vulkan were the strongest, and Horus was the best general. Post-Heresy, Guilliman was the wisest, Vulkan was still the strongest, and Lion/Guilliman was the best general.
On-topic, most mock-worthy would be Russ, because he's a douche.
In my opinion - every single one of them.
They all succeed and fail in some way so they all deserve some sort of mocking.
Even if they were all superhumans they were all in fact spoiled brats who were given to much power. Seriously, if Emperor powerfist them for every time they were getting out of control or not obeying his orders or toying with Chaos powers none of this would happened.
Seriously, you set some royally screwed up guys in charge of some royally screwed up legions, and then get all surprised when they bow to Chaos? Seriously? How did you not see Angron and some of the others becoming problems?
Depends on who does the telling. In some of the stories, different Primarchs aren't really given a fair shake depending on whose perspective it's from.
The emperor was the worst parent you could imagine, he lost all of his sons, allowed two of them to 'disappear'
He allowed Angron and Russ to happen, left the frontline and gave the job to someone who didn't know/want to do it, gave the go-ahead for Russ to kill Magnus.
He effectively allowed the Horus Heresy to happen.
Dorn, pompous, vain, self righteous. Caused two primarchs (Curze and Pertiburo) to side with Horus. Threw a tantrum after being warned of Horus's treachery and nearly killed the messengers. Ordered Ferrus, Corrax, and Vulkan into a trap. The list goes on.
I'm gonna have to disagree with the guy who voted Curze earlier. He didn't go nuts because of a vision of his death, he went nuts because he was, well, nuts. I just wanna set the record straight on my fave primarch.
Seriously, other than going a little overboard with the "space batman" imagery, the Night Lords and Konrad Curze are probably the coolest legion/primarch combo in the whole story. Curze was always tormented by visions of dark futures, but he at least started off with good intentions. Keeping peace through fear worked on Nostramo, and as the ranks of the Night Lords swelled with criminals from Nostramo, they picked up his tactics with pleasure. Empy recognizes their usefulness and lets them punish already conquered planets that try to break away from the Imperium. You act up, we skin your whole populace. Peace through Fear.
Curze cracks for a few reasons: 1) His visions of the Heresy are getting worse, and no one will believe him, his brothers almost universally dislike him. 2) The Emperor formally rebukes him for his legion's behavior, behavior the Emperor previously turned a blind eye to due to their usefulness. 3) His own planet has descended into crime and corruption in his absence, making his efforts seem futile.
He draws a few conclusions from this: the Emperor is a hypocritical bastard, his brothers are fools, his own legion is full of unstable murderers, and bettering humanity is a hopeless endeavor. So he blows up Nostramo and goes on a killing spree, ended only when the Emperor sent an assassin to kill him. Curze let the assassin kill him, knowing it was coming, because it demonstrated the Emperor's hypocrisy. He disapproved of Curze's cruelty, then killed his own son to punish him. It's a twisted take on things, but at least you can kinda see the demented logic.
Anyway, you want to talk mock-worthy primarchs, I vote either Lorgar or Perturabo. Both of them were whiny babies unbefitting of their demi-god status. Lorgar's failings have already been discussed, but Perturabo was also a little b*tch for getting upset over the use of his legion as a garrison force. I imagine they weren't literally manning checkpoints on backwater planets, but instead were scattered throughout the Imperium in fortresses, ready to react to alien threats or insurrection on nearby worlds (you know, kinda like every space marine chapter does now). It might not be as glamorous as some of his brothers' exploits, but he was a SOLDIER first and foremost. Do your duty already instead of whining.
It just seems like the rest of the traitors had at least halfway decent reasons for turning, from warp/daemonic influence (Horus, Fulgrim) to being legitimately pissed at the Emperor AND being crazy to boot (Angron, Curze) to having made a deal with the devil and then getting your planet ransacked by the Emperor's attack dog (Magnus) to just plain hating life and humanity in general because you're an evil bastard (Mortarion). Lorgar and Perturabo just couldn't suck it up and do what they were supposed to do, and got bitter, jealous, and generally emo instead.
So go cry, emo kids - my vote is for Lorgar or Perturabo.
Russ, simply because the SW codex can find no other noun than "Wolf". Wolf lord on Thunderwolf with Wolf talisman, saga of the Wolfborn, with legion of attack wolves and wolf wolfers, leading a pack of wolf wolf wolves, wolf wolves and wolves' wolf? Did I mention WOLVES!?!?!?!?
Dorn was fairly useless too. "Let's defend Terra! Oh noes we failed!!!! : O". Yeah.
Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Angry the Angryiest Angryus Anger Anger bloodrage.
Ignatius wrote:But I would say that Lorgar is the most mockable to an extent based on his childish way of handling his dad yelling at him. But then again, I don't like him as a character anyway so I'm a little biased.
Have you read The First Heretic? To be honest, if my dad let me get on with something for ages, then destroyed something that I had worked hard on, humiliated me, told me that I shouldn't have been doing what he was letting me do, and called me a failure, I'd be a little put out too. Even if he is a little useless at what he was supposed to do, that doesn't neccesarily mean he's mockable. He's the most likable and relateable-to Primarch, at least at first; he doesn't want to follow the path in life that he has been commanded to, but neither would I if my dad told me "Son you're going to be a sportsman, no arguing". The need to find something to believe in was literally in his genetic code.
EDIT: Especially if my dad did all of that whilst my brother, who I hated and who he had got to destroy the thing that I had worked hard on, stood smirking behind him.
Yes, I did read The First Heretic. That's the reason why I don't like him and think him to be mock worthy. If I hadn't read it, then I really wouldn't have much of a right to not like him.
And you're right, you should be a little put out too if your father did what the Emperor did. But not to the extent that you run off for a couple years venting your anger on planets you come across and moping around for a while. It's rediculous. He doesn't follow the path in life he was created to do- not commanded. He threw a temper tantrum plain and simple.
After he got told off he just kept whining about the fact that "I don't wanna be a general!".
And The Emperor should be more proud of a son that is much better at what he was made to do. Guilliman was probably right after Horus in terms of the Emperor's favor. Because he was damn good at what he did.
LoneLictor wrote:Even Lorgar admitted he wasn't the best Primarch. He didn't like war, he was quite whiny and he was extremely insecure about the universe. Lorgar's desperate need to find some overall meaning, something truly epic to devote his life to, led to the downfall of the Imperium.
This. In other words, freaking emos run everything. No seriously, pretty much everything bad about the Imperium's present state is his fault.
I dunno, Lorgar might've improved things slightly. Before he came around the Imperium was a fascist dictatorship. Now its a fascist theocratic oligarchy, which may be slightly better (8 people making decisions for everyone is better than 1 person making decisions for everyone).
All of them?
Or;
"The feral worlder led the Sisters into the temple. Sister Superior Helena was relieved to see it was in relatively good condition- however backwards this planet might be, at least it had kept up its worship. Admirable, really, in a world that had not been contacted by the Imperium since the Salamanders had made a stop shortly after the Horus Heresy. Whatever her thoughts on the Astartes, they'd at least managed to impress these savages with the creed.
"Here," the feral worlder said, pointing at a series of crude paintings inside the temple. Or perhaps crude was the wrong word- primitive, yes, but obvious effort had been put into them. They would not compare with the stained glass or sacred paintings of an Imperial convent, but their bright colors and symbols were certainly eye-catching.
"Tells all the story. Known it since I was a babe." The feral worlder seemed proud, or else simply eager for the approval of the strange women with fire-spitting wands.
"Tell us, then," prompted Sister Helena. The feral worlder nodded, grinning, and pointed to the largest picture. It showed a man dressed in animal hides made of gold, sitting upon a chair that towered over a tiny village painted in the background.
"Emp-Rar," she explained.
"Emp-Rar?"
"King Emp-Rar, of the village Terra. Powerful magician, made himself god."
"Magician?" explained Sister Isabella, her face contorted with fury. "That's heres-"
Sister Helena cut her off with a look. She might normally have agreed with Isabella's assessment, but the feral worlder hadn't seemed to mean anything chaos-related by the word. Besides, until their rescue ship arrived, they were stuck on this barbaric little rock and would have to save their ammunition for true emergencies.
"Go on."
The feral worlder pointed to another picture.
"Betrayed by his son, the Horse."
The Sisters looked at the picture, which indeed showed a very evil looking horse. Trying not to laugh, they silently noted that it did have lots of spiky bits painted on it.
"Other sons fight the Horse, even though-" her voice dropped to a frightened hush- "the Gill Man came to take away their manhood with the Coat of Stars!"
Any confusion on the part of the Sisters was answered by the painting of the Gill Man, a large, scaly monster dressed in a starry coat with scissors on the end. Or rather, it was answered by the fact that the scales on his chest were blue and displayed the Ultramarines symbol.
"Yes," whispered Sister Rosalind, "this story was definitely told by the Salamanders."
The feral worlder moved on to the next series of paintings, each with a symbol that suggested a different Primarch.
"The Great Green One," she said reverently. "Knew the secrets of Fire and Steel. Refused to let the Gill-Man take his manhood."
Sister Rosalind suppressed a giggle, deciding that the next time she saw the Salamanders she would call them Great Green Ones. They'd kill her for it, but it would be worth it.
"The Angel," came the feral worlder's voice, pointing at the next painting. "Emp-Rar's beautiful daughter." Indeed, the golden-haired woman in the painting was remarkably beautiful, her body barely covered by a sheer piece of cloth, her blue eyes large and sad as she wept tears of blood.
"Was there a female Primarch?" Sister Ophelia hissed excitedly. "I never learned about her!"
"Don't ask," replied Sister Helena. With any luck, the Blood Angels would never end up visiting this planet.
"One son was a wall."
"You mean, built a wall?"
"Was a wall. Emp-Rar's concubines gave birth to a great wall to protect him. Wall called Dorn."
"I'm really pretty sure this is heresy..." groaned Sister Isabella.
The feral worlder looked at them suspiciously. "Priestesses of Emp-Rar should know the story. Why so many questions?"
Sister Helena smiled, doing her best to convey smug superiority. "We merely wish to see how well you know your history. Memorized speeches are all well and good, but it doesn't mean much if you can't explain in detail."
The feral worlder seemed a bit embarrassed at that. Her head bowed, she pointed to three smaller paintings.
"Other sons, Great Green Ones say are not important, but we put them up here anyway. Important to know history. The Raven-" she pointed to a painting of a large black bird, his wings spread, giving what looked like a murderous glare to the other paintings- '"The Man with the White Scar-" this painting showed what appeared to be a man riding a horse made of steel, a primitive attempt at understanding the concept of an attack bike- "and Bad Angel. Great Green Ones not talk about Bad Angel, though. They say he brings bad luck to those who knew too much."
"They would," commented Sister Mariana. "And I think the Great Green Ones seem to have been a little bitter over Guilliman's backers. Are there any they did say were important?"
The feral worlder beamed at her.
"Wolf-Man. Along with Great Green One, refused to lose his manhood to the Gill-Man's coat of stars." With that, she pointed to the final painting on the temple walls.
The painting showed a huge barbarian, naked from the waist up. Over one shoulder was slung a woman, who looked as if she wasn't quite sure whether or not to be upset by her impending ravishment. In the other hand, he wielded a giant tanker of mead, using it to crush his opponents while taking a healthy drink from it himself.
"Well," said Sister Helena after a moment's pause, "at least they got one right."
liquidjoshi wrote:Russ, simply because the SW codex can find no other noun than "Wolf". Wolf lord on Thunderwolf with Wolf talisman, saga of the Wolfborn, with legion of attack wolves and wolf wolfers, leading a pack of wolf wolf wolves, wolf wolves and wolves' wolf? Did I mention WOLVES!?!?!?!?
Ribon Fox wrote:
"They would," commented Sister Mariana. "And I think the Great Green Ones seem to have been a little bitter over Guilliman's backers. Are there any they did say were important?"
The feral worlder beamed at her.
"Wolf-Man. Along with Great Green One, refused to lose his manhood to the Gill-Man's coat of stars." With that, she pointed to the final painting on the temple walls.
The painting showed a huge barbarian, naked from the waist up. Over one shoulder was slung a woman, who looked as if she wasn't quite sure whether or not to be upset by her impending ravishment. In the other hand, he wielded a giant tanker of mead, using it to crush his opponents while taking a healthy drink from it himself.
"Well," said Sister Helena after a moment's pause, "at least they got one right."
Omegus wrote:And he makes all his recruits call themselves Alpharius, too! And after having the tempate for making primarchs for 10,000 years, he has done precisely nothing with that technology.
Actually he succeeded in creating an entire legion of primarchs but they were all killed by Draigo.
Buttons wrote:He builds a mini empire and has the largest legion with some of the lightest casualties (didn't get most of his legion wiped out at Istvaan, didn't fight at Terra) during the Horus Heresy
Actually Know No Fear seems to imply that they lost nearly 90% of the legion at Calth.
DarkStarSabre wrote:How hard would it have been to just take them to one side and say 'Seriously guys, don't do that. I know what happens and it's bad.'
He couldn't. The mere knowledge of the existence of Chaos feeds it. The Emperor was trying to destroy Chaos by stopping people from believing in it. You know that saying about repeating a lie enough times and it becomes it true? Well that's what the Emperor was trying to do with his Imperial Truth (which, ironically enough, was a LIE from the beginning).
Of course, that's nonsense. Chaos feeds our dark impulses and emotions, it's what created them in the first place. Active knowledge is what usually allows it to cross over into the materium.
Ribon Fox wrote:All of them? Or; "The feral worlder led the Sisters into the temple. Sister Superior Helena was relieved to see it was in relatively good condition- however backwards this planet might be, at least it had kept up its worship. Admirable, really, in a world that had not been contacted by the Imperium since the Salamanders had made a stop shortly after the Horus Heresy. Whatever her thoughts on the Astartes, they'd at least managed to impress these savages with the creed.
"Here," the feral worlder said, pointing at a series of crude paintings inside the temple. Or perhaps crude was the wrong word- primitive, yes, but obvious effort had been put into them. They would not compare with the stained glass or sacred paintings of an Imperial convent, but their bright colors and symbols were certainly eye-catching.
"Tells all the story. Known it since I was a babe." The feral worlder seemed proud, or else simply eager for the approval of the strange women with fire-spitting wands.
"Tell us, then," prompted Sister Helena. The feral worlder nodded, grinning, and pointed to the largest picture. It showed a man dressed in animal hides made of gold, sitting upon a chair that towered over a tiny village painted in the background.
"Emp-Rar," she explained.
"Emp-Rar?"
"King Emp-Rar, of the village Terra. Powerful magician, made himself god."
"Magician?" explained Sister Isabella, her face contorted with fury. "That's heres-"
Sister Helena cut her off with a look. She might normally have agreed with Isabella's assessment, but the feral worlder hadn't seemed to mean anything chaos-related by the word. Besides, until their rescue ship arrived, they were stuck on this barbaric little rock and would have to save their ammunition for true emergencies.
"Go on."
The feral worlder pointed to another picture.
"Betrayed by his son, the Horse."
The Sisters looked at the picture, which indeed showed a very evil looking horse. Trying not to laugh, they silently noted that it did have lots of spiky bits painted on it.
"Other sons fight the Horse, even though-" her voice dropped to a frightened hush- "the Gill Man came to take away their manhood with the Coat of Stars!"
Any confusion on the part of the Sisters was answered by the painting of the Gill Man, a large, scaly monster dressed in a starry coat with scissors on the end. Or rather, it was answered by the fact that the scales on his chest were blue and displayed the Ultramarines symbol.
"Yes," whispered Sister Rosalind, "this story was definitely told by the Salamanders."
The feral worlder moved on to the next series of paintings, each with a symbol that suggested a different Primarch.
"The Great Green One," she said reverently. "Knew the secrets of Fire and Steel. Refused to let the Gill-Man take his manhood."
Sister Rosalind suppressed a giggle, deciding that the next time she saw the Salamanders she would call them Great Green Ones. They'd kill her for it, but it would be worth it.
"The Angel," came the feral worlder's voice, pointing at the next painting. "Emp-Rar's beautiful daughter." Indeed, the golden-haired woman in the painting was remarkably beautiful, her body barely covered by a sheer piece of cloth, her blue eyes large and sad as she wept tears of blood.
"Was there a female Primarch?" Sister Ophelia hissed excitedly. "I never learned about her!"
"Don't ask," replied Sister Helena. With any luck, the Blood Angels would never end up visiting this planet.
"One son was a wall."
"You mean, built a wall?"
"Was a wall. Emp-Rar's concubines gave birth to a great wall to protect him. Wall called Dorn."
"I'm really pretty sure this is heresy..." groaned Sister Isabella.
The feral worlder looked at them suspiciously. "Priestesses of Emp-Rar should know the story. Why so many questions?"
Sister Helena smiled, doing her best to convey smug superiority. "We merely wish to see how well you know your history. Memorized speeches are all well and good, but it doesn't mean much if you can't explain in detail."
The feral worlder seemed a bit embarrassed at that. Her head bowed, she pointed to three smaller paintings.
"Other sons, Great Green Ones say are not important, but we put them up here anyway. Important to know history. The Raven-" she pointed to a painting of a large black bird, his wings spread, giving what looked like a murderous glare to the other paintings- '"The Man with the White Scar-" this painting showed what appeared to be a man riding a horse made of steel, a primitive attempt at understanding the concept of an attack bike- "and Bad Angel. Great Green Ones not talk about Bad Angel, though. They say he brings bad luck to those who knew too much."
"They would," commented Sister Mariana. "And I think the Great Green Ones seem to have been a little bitter over Guilliman's backers. Are there any they did say were important?"
The feral worlder beamed at her.
"Wolf-Man. Along with Great Green One, refused to lose his manhood to the Gill-Man's coat of stars." With that, she pointed to the final painting on the temple walls.
The painting showed a huge barbarian, naked from the waist up. Over one shoulder was slung a woman, who looked as if she wasn't quite sure whether or not to be upset by her impending ravishment. In the other hand, he wielded a giant tanker of mead, using it to crush his opponents while taking a healthy drink from it himself.
"Well," said Sister Helena after a moment's pause, "at least they got one right."
Harriticus wrote:Leman Russ comes off as fairly stupid and seems to have created a lot of messes.
To be honest he cleared up a lot of messes.
I mean he cleared up the lost Legions/Primarchs for whatever reasons the Emeror decided on at the time, but at a guess I would have to say that either they were the first sign of bad mutation or the first legions to genuinley question the Emperors rule over them.
I dont think Leman Russ fits being 'Mock-Worthy at all', in fact I dont think any of the Primarchs do. But if I had to say who was the most bone idle and didnt do a great deal during the heresy then I would have to say Vulcan of the Salamanders or Ferrus Mannus of the Iron Hands, due to them both pitching up at the first major battle and getting their arses kicked and then doing bugger all for the rest of the Heresy. Even Corax did something after the DSM.
Uh... Ferrus Manus was DEAD for the rest of the Heresy. That kind of precludes you from doing anything.
Anyway, as much as I dislike Leman Russ, I agree that he doesn't really fall in the mock-worthy territory. Contempt and loathing? Certainly. But not mockery. He is a product of his genes and his environment, like all the other Primarchs.
So so far the consensus seems to be as follows:
Stupidest name: Ferrus Manus or Corax/Corvus.
Biggest emo: Lorgar or Curze
Most useless in the grand scheme of things: The Lion or Vulkan
Clearing up the lost legions is pure speculation based on a single comment and their nickname. Though if he had already destroyed a legion, one would think he'd have been better prepared for the Thousand Sons.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:
Dorn, pompous, vain, self righteous. Caused two primarchs (Curze and Pertiburo) to side with Horus. Threw a tantrum after being warned of Horus's treachery and nearly killed the messengers. Ordered Ferrus, Corrax, and Vulkan into a trap. The list goes on.
Agreed, that's how I feel about him, plus he just isn't as interesting as the rest.
Turned to chaos and tried to kill, on more than one occasion, a brother primarch simply to satisfy his private fears and personal grievances.
Used his influence to punish and neuter one of the other legions that would pose a thread to Horus' ascendency.
Under orders from Horus, tried to destroy an entire Legion for warning the Emperor about Horus' pending treachery.
And finally fled to the warp to join his treacherous brothers, leaving his legion behind like a coward.
Nice, that's gonna get a lot of replies, methinks.
Also I wouldn't put Curze up for "biggest emo", or even second biggest. Corax is probably second biggest. Curze isn't really emo. Dude was legitimately insane.
And Lorgar is definitely biggest emo, feeling really bad for himself over, for lack of a better phrase, "white primarch problems". As in, "Whaa my daddy is mad because I've been sitting around writing books instead of conquering the galaxy." Look, you don't exactly have it rough. One of your brothers raised himself in a forest full of giant monsters. Another was enslaved and had implants put in his head and had to fight people to the death every day. And another one has creepy jet-black skin and red eyes, and grew up on a planet covered in lava. So get over yourself and go start conquering.
Lorgar is the kid who cuts himself. Curze is the kid who cuts other people.
Mock Russ for his vices the drinking,the eating, and the wolves he takes with him everywhere.
Fulgrim is the most mock worthy to me though. I'm so pretty and perfect. My Legion is perfect too we all have to be bishi space marines because we're so perfect. Perfection
lolwut? No. No he didn't. I'm no Space Wolf fanboy, but Russ remained loyal. When he was ordered to kill Magnus and attack the Thousand Sons, Horus hadn't yet revealed his true colours, so Russ thought his orders came down from the Emperor himself. The fact that he wasn't bestest buddies with Magnus in the first place was something Horus took advantage of.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Lorgar is the kid who cuts himself. Curze is the kid who cuts other people.
lolwut? No. No he didn't. I'm no Space Wolf fanboy, but Russ remained loyal. When he was ordered to kill Magnus and attack the Thousand Sons, Horus hadn't yet revealed his true colours, so Russ thought his orders came down from the Emperor himself. The fact that he wasn't bestest buddies with Magnus in the first place was something Horus took advantage of.
QFT
Russ and Magnus were good brothers, only Russ didn't like Sorcery and after the Emperor outlawed it's use at the Council of Nikea, Russ would have been even more inclined to punish those who would disobey the Emperor.
Horus just told Russ exactly what he needed to hear, the rest was down to the Superstitious Wolves and their dismissal of 'Magic'
As per usual, I'm drawn to another of Kid Kyotos threads to see who is killed by a casually tossed fluff-grenade...
All of the primarchs are mock worthy. Over the top stereotypes smothered in grimdark deserve to be the subjects of mockery. Just like the Goth kid with the overcoat back in the day.
I try to keep interested in the fluff as much as I can. However, once I reach a state of equilibrium, another BL writer comes along and destroys my initial perception of the Universe.
Ah well.
Someone mentioned that Russ has canine genetics, I don't remember this, but in a HH novel I read recently it does say something to the effect that all of the primarch genes contain a cocktail of code some of it non-human if I understood that correctly.
This is, perhaps, why Corax, the Raven has dark soulless eyes, er, like a raven. By extension this would imply that Russ is like a dog. Unquestioningly loyal to its owner, tracks his prey like a bloodhound with a very short attention span (SQUIRREL!!!).
Russ, the Dog, is just the Primarch to keep the herd in line and loyal enough to cull the trouble makers if necessary.
No. No he didn't. I'm no Space Wolf fanboy, but Russ remained loyal. When he was ordered to kill Magnus and attack the Thousand Sons, Horus hadn't yet revealed his true colours, so Russ thought his orders came down from the Emperor himself. The fact that he wasn't bestest buddies with Magnus in the first place was something Horus took advantage of.
First to attack another primarch.
Followed orders of the Traitor Warmaster.
Openly violated the Emperor's Edicts at Nikaea.
Permitted mutations among his legion.
Russ may have been loyal to the Emperor, but he still was the first to turn against his brother primarchs. At the behest of the Traitor.
Gah, look another thread turns into 'hate on SW'. lol
Russ was sent to take care of Magnus by the Emperor himself with tons of custodians and sisters of silence. Even if Horus changed his order, the Emp still sent him loaded for bear and expecting trouble.
Every legion followed orders of the Traitor until he was exposed.
Most legions violated Nikaea.
Most legions permitted mutation of one kind or another.
I'll give you that he was the first to strike a brother primarch, but that was against the two forgotten brothers and not Magnus. And all three were at the Emperor's behest. The difference with the third is that Horus tricked him into not bringing back any prisoners.
You can hate the SW all you want, but get the facts straight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if we're going with first to turn, quite a few events occured before Prospero that showed the primarchs turning against their brothers, if not openly.
pretre wrote:Every legion followed orders of the Traitor until he was exposed.
Not Magnus. He uncovered evidence of Horus' treachery and tried to report him to the Emperor.
pretre wrote:Most legions violated Nikaea.
Not Magnus. He followed the ruling of Nikaea against the wishes of his most trusted captains.
pretre wrote:Most legions permitted mutation of one kind or another.
Not Magnus. He actively sought out a solution to the problem of mutations (the flesh change) within his legion.
pretre wrote:I'll give you that he was the first to strike a brother primarch, but that was against the two forgotten brothers and not Magnus. And all three were at the Emperor's behest. The difference with the third is that Horus tricked him into not bringing back any prisoners.
So? He'd shown a willingness to attack other Primarchs, something that the rest of them thought was unthinkable. Even SM turning against one another was beyond comprehension.
The only remaining question is: what brought Russ back to fight for the Emperor, or at least against Horus' faction? I don't think we'll ever know that because we don't know what motivates the Primarchs. Maybe Russ decided to stay with the Emperor because he thought he would be on the winning side (and therefore get to kill more Primarchs). Maybe he realized he wouldn't be able to get drunk all the time if he went to Chaos.
pretre wrote:Every legion followed orders of the Traitor until he was exposed.
Not Magnus. He uncovered evidence of Horus' treachery and tried to report him to the Emperor.
pretre wrote:Most legions violated Nikaea.
Not Magnus. He followed the ruling of Nikaea against the wishes of his most trusted captains.
pretre wrote:Most legions permitted mutation of one kind or another.
Not Magnus. He actively sought out a solution to the problem of mutations (the flesh change) within his legion.
This is so much BS.
He uncovered evidence of Horus' treachery through consultation with the warp. Then he F'd up the salvation of mankind in reporting that treachery, in effect doing just what the ruinous powers wanted when they told him. Good job /slowclap
How did he follow Nikaea? Oh, by allowing his whole legion to still use psychic powers, keep warp creatures as pets and then perform a huge psychic ritual that ended up killing a huge portion of Terra's psykers. Good job /slowclap.
What was Magnus' solution to Flesh Change? Tzeentch. Good job /slowclap.
So who was first to turn to Chaos? Oh yeah, Magnus when he made a deal with a Chaos God as soon as his Legion rejoined him and then wrecked the Emperor's webway, killed tens of thousands of psykers and ultimately damaged the war effort and humanity's future more than Horus did.
So? He'd shown a willingness to attack other Primarchs, something that the rest of them thought was unthinkable. Even SM turning against one another was beyond comprehension.
A willingness he was given by his maker, the Emperor, who made and used him to do exactly that.
The only remaining question is: what brought Russ back to fight for the Emperor, or at least against Horus' faction? I don't think we'll ever know that because we don't know what motivates the Primarchs. Maybe Russ decided to stay with the Emperor because he thought he would be on the winning side (and therefore get to kill more Primarchs). Maybe he realized he wouldn't be able to get drunk all the time if he went to Chaos.
thenoobbomb wrote:Dorn, for defending Terra, failing in it, and let the Custodes and BA do the job.
Sure, he failed all right after being outnumbered by how much? 3 loyal Legions against 9 traitor Legions + Titan Legions + Imperial Army.
And then nearly start another civil war.
I agree with that, no matter what he thought about that back then it was only right solution at the time as more marines fell to Chaps during 10.000 years of Imperium's existence.
thenoobbomb wrote:Dorn, for defending Terra, failing in it, and let the Custodes and BA do the job.
Sure, he failed all right after being outnumbered by how much? 3 loyal Legions against 9 traitor Legions + Titan Legions + Imperial Army.
The Titan legions went to Mars to take part in the Dark Mechanicum's battle. The Imperial army was on the side of Dorn. Hence the 'Imperial'. The Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Thousand Sons weren't present, and the Emperor's Children ran around mutilating everything they could, they didn't fight. This gives us:
3 loyal legions + the Imperial Army against 5 renegade legions.
Bearing in mind that the renegades were assaulting a fortress, which essentially nullifies any advantage they may have had in numbers, the odds against Dorn weren't actually all that bad.
So being attacked by 5 renegade Legions + Daemons + Mutants + Imperial Army Renegades + Renegade Titans is not to much for just 2 Legions and Custodes and 500.000 troops? When Custodes were overwhelmed in the Imperial Palace what should Imperial Fists do? If Sanguinius were not there the Palace would have fallen.
Brother Coa wrote:So being attacked by 5 renegade Legions + Daemons + Mutants + Imperial Army Renegades + Renegade Titans is not to much for just 2 Legions and Custodes and 500.000 troops?
When Custodes were overwhelmed in the Imperial Palace what should Imperial Fists do?
If Sanguinius were not there the Palace would have fallen.
With proper fortifications a defending force should be able to hold off 10x their numbers.
So we can only conclude the Imperial Fists didn't know what they doing and Rogal Dorn is the most mock-worthy primarch
Brother Coa wrote:So being attacked by 5 renegade Legions + Daemons + Mutants + Imperial Army Renegades + Renegade Titans is not to much for just 2 Legions and Custodes and 500.000 troops?
When Custodes were overwhelmed in the Imperial Palace what should Imperial Fists do?
If Sanguinius were not there the Palace would have fallen.
With proper fortifications a defending force should be able to hold off 10x their numbers.
So we can only conclude the Imperial Fists didn't know what they doing and Rogal Dorn is the most mock-worthy primarch
This, the bare minimum for attacking defensive positions is a 3 to 1 advantage, against prepared defenses 10 to 1 is probably a safer bet. Also, don't assume 3 to 1 means you are using human wave tactics, it simply offers greater capabilities, one guy can pin an enemy while two guys advance and so on.
Brother Coa wrote:So being attacked by 5 renegade Legions + Daemons + Mutants + Imperial Army Renegades + Renegade Titans is not to much for just 2 Legions and Custodes and 500.000 troops?
When Custodes were overwhelmed in the Imperial Palace what should Imperial Fists do?
If Sanguinius were not there the Palace would have fallen.
Exactly. Dorn should have sent reinforcements to the custodes when the Iron Warriors started attacking. Or, you know, made better defences. And again, the Titans were on Mars. The Imperium was more likely to have access to them than Chaos. And yes, in a fortress designed by someone apparently genetically engineered to make good defences, three legions should have been able to easily hod out against five.
LoneLictor wrote:Even Lorgar admitted he wasn't the best Primarch. He didn't like war, he was quite whiny and he was extremely insecure about the universe. Lorgar's desperate need to find some overall meaning, something truly epic to devote his life to, led to the downfall of the Imperium.
Yeah, I have to say it's probably Lorgar.
He was a middling general, an emo whiner with daddy issues who feel to Chaos because he wasn't getting validation from the Emperor. He seethed with jealousy and hatred for the other brothers he saw as favored by Dad (Guilliman and the Ultramarines). And ultimately, he was a fool, suckered into multiple lies.
And then, even after he converted to Chaos, Horus sacrificed him and the Word Bearers when he sent them to die at Calth. Even Horus though Horus knew that none of the legions stood no chance of beating the Ultramarines, he recognized that the relatively inexperienced Word Bearers were the least valuable so he used Lorgar's petty hatred (which blinded him to the fact that his legion was being sacrificed) in a gambit to attempt to slow the Ultramarines down long enough to accomplish his goal of conquering Earth.
I mean, there are plenty of things you can use to make fun of the various Primarchs. But Lorgar was straight up laughably pathetic. ADB did a good job making him a sympathetic character in the novels, but he was a chump next to even the second-weakest of his brothers.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:And then, even after he converted to Chaos, Horus sacrificed him and the Word Bearers when he sent them to die at Calth. Even Horus though Horus knew that none of the legions stood no chance of beating the Ultramarines, he recognized that the relatively inexperienced Word Bearers were the least valuable so he used Lorgar's petty hatred (which blinded him to the fact that his legion was being sacrificed) in a gambit to attempt to slow the Ultramarines down long enough to accomplish his goal of conquering Earth.
Horus could've easily defeated the Ultramarines if he'd had the time to do so. Nine full Legions+Hordes of Daemons+Element of Surprise+The Fact that Gulliman was literally taking orders from Horus could've wiped the Ultramarines out pretty quick.
But yeah, the Word Bearers were sacrificed. They were used to cripple the Ultramarines at the cost of completely ruining their own Legion and ensuring that they'd pretty much never fully recover or accomplish anything after that. Cuz that's the nature of Chaos. It ain't based on loyalty or order; it's based on impulse, want and need. Just because the Gods like you now doesn't mean you'll be their favorite forever.
I think you're missing the point though. Horus could probably have been able to take out the Ultramarines. He was definitely at least as good of a general as Guilliman. However, you miss the important part. All the time and casualties he takes fighting the Ultramarines hurts his chances of taking Terra and deposing the Emperor.
Sacrificing the Word Bearers to slow down the Ultramarines was designed to give him time to take Terra, consolidate, and then deal with the Ultramarines after he'd crushed the rest of the loyal legions. If he'd won at Terra, the loyal legions would have been reduced to the remnants of the Space Wolves, half or so of the Dark Angels, and the Ultramarines (who were way bigger than everyone else, even if we accept the casualty figures from the current fluff as opposed to the original numbers when the framework of the Heresy was worked out 20 years ago) .
If he attacks the Ultramarines with everything, the loyalists get a chance to consolidate and present a united front. By sacrificing the Word Bearers in a distraction, he was able to move directly on Terra while the loyalist legions were scattered, and the largest threat (the Ultramarines) temporarily neutralized.
What you said was, "Horus knew none of the legions had a chance of beating the Ultramarines." I just went by what your post said. I apologize if that's not what you meant.
Titans didn't participate in the Battle of Terra? Are you on drugs? The walls of the palace were finally breached by the Dies Irae, an Emperor-class Titan that was attached to the Word Bearers Legion (who also fought on Terra alongside their Primarch, just to dispel accusations that they never did anything after Calth).
As for Russ, he showed a willingness to attack the Lion over a personal grievance, putting his honor over the success of the campaign. He and his Legion were ready to attack Magnus and the TS way before Nikea, all because the latter wanted to preserve a library.
Yes, Russ was a dog, and a rabid one at that. The whole, "oh the Emperor designed him as his executioner" is a bunch of crap posited by a senile old Wolf Priest. Think about it, how would his puny Legion deal with a Legion that outnumbered him 10 times over? The Wolves outnumbered the Thousand Sons, and they still needed tons of custodians and sisters of silence, as well as all the advantages given to them by Magnus (no planetary defenses, total surprise, PDF in parade gear, etc.) and they still mostly got their asses kicked after the initial surprise of their assault wore off. I don't think the Emperor knew exactly how his modifications to the primarch template would turn out, otherwise I seriously doubt he would have designed one to be a fanatic or another to have maddening visions of his demise. He just saw the tendency in Russ for blind loyalty, and used that, just like he used all the Primarchs.
Magnus violated Nikea, but at least he initially ordered his Legion to abide by the ruling and only used the ritual to contact his father because he felt it was a last resort. Russ pretended the Nikea edict never even applied to him because for the Wolves, Friendship is Magic! or whatever.
Magnus was a dumbass and made a deal with Tzeench, but who was it that propagated the lie that Warp creatures are just basically "weird aliens that you don't have to really concern yourself with"? Oh yea, that Emperor guy. Magnus violated a stupid edict (that was overturned like a week into the Heresy by both Guilliman and the Sigillite, with concent from the Emperor), whereas Russ was in violation of the Imperial Truth by allowing his recruits to retain their barbaric belief system.
Magnus felt genuine remorse over his mistake (and some sources suggest still does to this day), and was ready to accept his punishment (setting up his own world to fall to the Wolves), before finally being goaded into action when the Wolves started killing and destroying everything in sight like they tended to do. When Russ found out he was duped, he suppressed all evidence of the truth and pretended nothing happened, dicked around for a little while, and then abandoned his duty to go gallivanting about in the Warp.
Magnus = road to hell paved with good intentions.
Russ = willful ignorance and self-delusion, misplaced violence, and inability to realize Begging' Strips aren't bacon.
Speaking of Russ and Magnus... anyone else remember that bit in A Thousand Sons on Shrike where Russ murdered a whole bunch of Thousand Sons?
Spoiler:
Ahriman sensed the violent spike of psychic energy a second before it hit.
It swept over them, a sudden, shocking blast of psychic noise that overwhelmed the senses with its sheer violence. Uthizzar cried out and dropped his weapon. Lemuel doubled over in pain, convulsing in spastic fits.
“What in the name of the Great Ocean was that?” cried Sobek. “A weapon?”
“A psychic Shockwave,” gasped Uthizzar. “One of immense proportions.”
Ahriman forced the pain away and knelt beside Lemuel. The remembrancer’s face was a mask of blood. It wept from his eyes and poured in a steady stream from his nose.
“So strong?” asked Ahriman, still blinking away hazy afterimages. “Are you sure?”
Uthizzar nodded.
“I am,” he said. “It is a howl of pure rage, cold, jagged and merciless.”
Ahriman trusted Uthizzar’s judgement, tasting icy metal and feeling the rage of a hunter’s fury denied.
“Such a force of psychic might is too powerful for any normal mind,” said Uthizzar, reliving a painful memory. “I have felt this before.”
Ahriman read Uthizzar’s aura and knew.
“Leman Russ,” he said."
then a little later, the only other time it's referenced again:
“T’kar,” said Ahriman. “Tell me what is happening! We heard a psychic shout more powerful than anything I’ve ever known.”
“It was Leman Russ,” said Uthizzar. “Wasn’t it?”
Phosis T’kar nodded, turning and indicating that they should follow him.
“Most probably,” he spat. “Killed almost every Athanaean in my Fellowship, and most of the ones that aren’t dead are reduced to drooling lackwits.”
And anyone else bothered by the fact that the incident is never mentioned again? :|
Magnus felt genuine remorse over his mistake (and some sources suggest still does to this day), and was ready to accept his punishment (setting up his own world to fall to the Wolves), before finally being goaded into action when the Wolves started killing and destroying everything in sight like they tended to do. When Russ found out he was duped, he suppressed all evidence of the truth and pretended nothing happened, dicked around for a little while, and then abandoned his duty to go gallivanting about in the Warp.
Magnus = road to hell paved with good intentions.
Russ = willful ignorance and self-delusion, misplaced violence, and inability to realize Begging' Strips aren't bacon.
Actually, according to the epilogue of A Thousand Sons, Magnus is still conflicted with his decision to accept Tzeentch's deal, as Ahriman describes him as "...gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval...". Ahriman also mentions that the Rubric would be the first step in reclaiming the honor of the legion in the Emperor's eyes. I don't know what happened after the Rubric is cast, but I would interpret Magnus planning the destruction of the Imperium in a different manner: destroy the 'current' iteration of the Imperium, where the Emperor is a god, and the Imperial Truth lies dead. Kinda like Cipher, kill the Emperor's body and allow Him to be reborn, after which he'll kick everyone's asses for letting things get that bad, then rebuild the Imperial Truth through the Ecclesiarchy (is there really any difference between a raving missionary and a manipulative iterator) and shake up the other Imperial organizations.
As for Russ, he probably got lucky that the Emperor was incapacitated after the Siege: his blind idiocy and lack of reason with regards to the Thousand Sons would probably have meant a reprimand or worse from the Emperor. Actually, when I first got to know 40k, I was surprised why some Primarchs turned traitor while others remained loyal.
Magnus - only Guilliman was as devoted to the Imperial Truth as Magnus
Kurze - if he knew what would happen if Horus betrayed the Emperor, why would he join Horus? If he felt obliged to deliver justice, why didn't he try and stop Horus?
Leman Russ - isn't he more likely to join Horus than Magnus? Compared to civilized, erudite Magnus, Russ was an ignorant fool and a rabid dog, not mention a complete barbarian - he should have been easier to corrupt/manipulate than Magnus
This seriously. Handing 18 Mutant children the keys to the universe then ignoring them is not a great idea.
Im also sure the Big E never took child raising 101. Seriously, There's quite a few thing he could have handled better.
"Angron wants to Die with his friends... Hmmm me and these Custodes could probably hand that other armies asses to them, Nope Frak it Telly him up here." *Zap* Hey son! *RAGE AND MURDER, zap* "That went well, He'll be alright"
Skits wrote: “T’kar,” said Ahriman. “Tell me what is happening! We heard a psychic shout more powerful than anything I’ve ever known.” “It was Leman Russ,” said Uthizzar. “Wasn’t it?” Phosis T’kar nodded, turning and indicating that they should follow him. “Most probably,” he spat. “Killed almost every Athanaean in my Fellowship, and most of the ones that aren’t dead are reduced to drooling lackwits. And anyone else bothered by the fact that the incident is never mentioned again? :|
For someone who despises psykers, the idiot was a powerful psyker; most likely he used the same hypocritical excuse as his warp-damned wolf priests: We don't use the power of the Warp, we invoke the power of Fenris!
Tadashi wrote:Actually, according to the epilogue of A Thousand Sons, Magnus is still conflicted with his decision to accept Tzeentch's deal, as Ahriman describes him as "...gazing into the Warp for signs of vindication and approval...". Ahriman also mentions that the Rubric would be the first step in reclaiming the honor of the legion in the Emperor's eyes. I don't know what happened after the Rubric is cast, but I would interpret Magnus planning the destruction of the Imperium in a different manner: destroy the 'current' iteration of the Imperium, where the Emperor is a god, and the Imperial Truth lies dead. Kinda like Cipher, kill the Emperor's body and allow Him to be reborn, after which he'll kick everyone's asses for letting things get that bad, then rebuild the Imperial Truth through the Ecclesiarchy (is there really any difference between a raving missionary and a manipulative iterator) and shake up the other Imperial organizations.
As for Russ, he probably got lucky that the Emperor was incapacitated after the Siege: his blind idiocy and lack of reason with regards to the Thousand Sons would probably have meant a reprimand or worse from the Emperor. Actually, when I first got to know 40k, I was surprised why some Primarchs turned traitor while others remained loyal.
Magnus - only Guilliman was as devoted to the Imperial Truth as Magnus
Kurze - if he knew what would happen if Horus betrayed the Emperor, why would he join Horus? If he felt obliged to deliver justice, why didn't he try and stop Horus?
Leman Russ - isn't he more likely to join Horus than Magnus? Compared to civilized, erudite Magnus, Russ was an ignorant fool and a rabid dog, not mention a complete barbarian - he should have been easier to corrupt/manipulate than Magnus
The Emperor knew how bad it would get, since he was given the full run-down of how the Heresy would play out shortly after Magnus blew up the Webway.
I would say Dorn was equally devoted to the Imperial Truth, since it broke his heart to help the Sigilite kill it. Kurze is easy, the dude was crazy. He never actively joined Horus, he was essentially a renegade after he disagreed with Dorn over how to treat prisoners of war (Dorn: re-educate and re-purpose, Kurze: flay alive and crucify), almost beat Dorn to death, and then slaughtered a bunch of Custodians and Astartes when he fled his trial. Then he lashed out blindly until the Emperor was forced to put him down, and Kurze took that as his vindication.
Russ being blind to the nature of his and his Legion's psychic powers was probably what protected him from corruption, since as we all know, belief is a very powerful thing in the 40k universe. Ahriman noted that all the fetishes and bone trinkets festooning Space Wolf armor created a protective haze over them that resisted outside psychic influence, and attibuted this effect to their wholehearted belief in them. It's basically mind over matter, except replace mind with lack thereof.
Toast36 wrote:I'm seeing a lot of hate for the Wolf-Man here. Not sure it's all founded.
Dog DNA maybe an issue but I ask you all who is mans best friend?
Any way, back on topic I would have to say Rowboat Girllyman.
Yeah, but if Russ hadn't been so blind, the Heresy would have ended differently. Magnus' 'punishment' when he arrived at Terra was to control the unstable Throne while the Emperor repaired the damage to the Webway, not to mention adding another legion, which was probably the least dependent on numbers, to the defense of Terra.
Man's best friend is himself - in the end, our destiny is ours to claim with our hands. And Guilliman was a genius, if you don't mind. He pulled the Imperium back together after the Heresy. I'd say he'd tie with Lion for third in line to be Warmaster, after Sanguinius (second) and Horus.
All of them can be mocked to some extent, like every other living being in existance. They were after all the virtues AND faults of humanity magnified.
Tadashi wrote:
Man's best friend is himself - in the end, our destiny is ours to claim with our hands. And Guilliman was a genius, if you don't mind. He pulled the Imperium back together after the Heresy. I'd say he'd tie with Lion for third in line to be Warmaster, after Sanguinius (second) and Horus.
The Lion as warmaster? Ludicrous.
Someone with no social common sense or ability to read people cannot be in such a position of authority. He really shouldn't have even been in charge of the Legion, but rather be relegated to the role of tactical advisor (he's basically Data from Star Trek).
Tadashi wrote: Man's best friend is himself - in the end, our destiny is ours to claim with our hands. And Guilliman was a genius, if you don't mind. He pulled the Imperium back together after the Heresy. I'd say he'd tie with Lion for third in line to be Warmaster, after Sanguinius (second) and Horus.
The Lion as warmaster? Ludicrous.
Someone with no social common sense or ability to read people cannot be in such a position of authority. He really shouldn't have even been in charge of the Legion, but rather be relegated to the role of tactical advisor (he's basically Data from Star Trek).
Perhaps, but personality-wise, Sanguinius should have been made Warmaster, not Horus. After all, while all the Primarchs had some beef with each other, everyone respected Sanguinius. Even Horus considered him as superior to himself.
After all, who can have a beef with this guy? Sorry Slaanesh, looks like even your Keepers of Secrets who are supposed to know their opponents' greatest desires are nothing compared to the Angel.
He was thought by some to be a bit ephemeral and flighty to be Warmaster, but yes, he would have probably been a good choice. The guy is a total badass. I can't wait till the HH books get to this point.
Shame his Legion/Chapter are so boring to read about. I couldn't get more than a handful of chapters through their Omnibus.
LoneLictor wrote:What you said was, "Horus knew none of the legions had a chance of beating the Ultramarines." I just went by what your post said. I apologize if that's not what you meant.
Beaviz81 wrote:Nah it's Rowboat for obvious reasons.
Give me one actual serious reason.
Gulliman was all kinds of awesome. Tactical genius, noble, honourable, disciplined.. How can you pick him above angry cry baby goths (Curze), childish religious zealots (Lorgar) and brainless steroid addled freaks (Angron)
Sure 4chan is pretty funny, but if were talking serious fluff, there seems little to mock Gulliman about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dont agree that all are worth mockery in some manner, Ive read every HH book now and I can only think of three awful ones.
Curze- Proper sad goth boy loser
Angron - Ridiculous steroid head.
Fulgrim- Ass raped by a demon, didn't think to put the sword down?!
Toast36 wrote:Have to agree the LEAST mock worthy primarch is Sangunius.
Oh yeah, blonde hair, angel wings, slew a daemon, runs around in golden armour, there is nothing strange or mock worthy about that. </sarcasm> Honestly the whole Blood Angel spiel is pretty funny angry vampires in red armour, with gold armour and angel wings for the leaders and elites.
He said LEAST mock-worthy, which I agree with. All primarchs are caricatures in one way or another, but I find Sang to be the most tolerable, partly because he was NOT a space vampire. It was his legion that went emo berserk and started lapping up blood, which is one reason why I dislike the BA.
Beaviz81 wrote:Nah it's Rowboat for obvious reasons.
Give me one actual serious reason.
Gulliman was all kinds of awesome. Tactical genius, noble, honourable, disciplined.. How can you pick him above angry cry baby goths (Curze), childish religious zealots (Lorgar) and brainless steroid addled freaks (Angron)
Sure 4chan is pretty funny, but if were talking serious fluff, there seems little to mock Gulliman about.
I have to agree that Guilliman is far too harshly criticized. The 1d4chan articles on him and the Ultramarines are funny, but can't be taken seriously. Guilliman's sole fault seems to have been that he was too loyal, and wasn't able to do the right thing after the Heresy, which was to assume the mantle of the Emperor and take control of the Imperium. He was too loyal to what he perceived to be the Emperor's Will, and he felt that his place was to fight humanity's battles, not to rule them. However, that was the Emperor's Will when the Emperor was alive. In his absence, the primarchs needed to inherit his kingdom, and Guilliman was the only one left able to do that. Instead, like The Good Son he was, he turned the Imperium over to the High Lords, and went back to Ultramar to lead his Chapter. Run by a succession of greedy humans, the Imperium regressed to what it is today. If Guilliman had run it, you'd probably see a modern, effective Imperial Guard, an efficient Administratum, and he'd definitely have blocked the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which is the most corrupt of the Imperium's institutions.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Guilliman's sole fault seems to have been that he was too loyal, and wasn't able to do the right thing after the Heresy, which was to assume the mantle of the Emperor and take control of the Imperium. He was too loyal to what he perceived to be the Emperor's Will, and he felt that his place was to fight humanity's battles, not to rule them. However, that was the Emperor's Will when the Emperor was alive. In his absence, the primarchs needed to inherit his kingdom, and Guilliman was the only one left able to do that. Instead, like The Good Son he was, he turned the Imperium over to the High Lords, and went back to Ultramar to lead his Chapter. Run by a succession of greedy humans, the Imperium regressed to what it is today. If Guilliman had run it, you'd probably see a modern, effective Imperial Guard, an efficient Administratum, and he'd definitely have blocked the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which is the most corrupt of the Imperium's institutions.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
IMO, Guilliman didn't want to take the Throne as the new Emperor because he couldn't command the complete trust and respect of his brothers. Only one Primarch had that: Sanguinius. I know I sound like a Sanguinius fanboy, but I'm not. My favorite Primarch is actually Magnus; I'm simply saying the truth - the only one who could have commanded the trust and respect of the remaining Primarchs to assume the Throne safely without risking fracture and a new civil war was Sanguinius, and he died on the Vengeful Spirit. Actually I would argue this was the reason the Emperor tried to leave Sanguinius behind - so he can take the Throne once everything was over. But he insisted on accompanying the Emperor. I've never really bought the idea that Sanguinius created a 'chink' in Horus' armor - the Emperor is not a god, but He has the power of one, and when He unleashed that without any restraint, Horus was obliterated, mind, body, and soul.
For me, the perfect gulligull Guilliman, is boring as hell and lacks flaws, that's the obvious reasons. He seems far better than the Emperor himself, which is completely absurd.
And for Angron, well unlike the rest of the Primarches he is actually doing something. The rest is either sleeping (Guilliman and Johnson), lost in the warp (too many to name and overlaps with dead on more than one occasion) or they are dead (or lost in the warp or both) or they are lazy (only Angron of the surviving traitor-promarches actually have a day-job, but Magnus has a part-time job as a bullseye for Space Wolves).
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Guilliman's sole fault seems to have been that he was too loyal, and wasn't able to do the right thing after the Heresy, which was to assume the mantle of the Emperor and take control of the Imperium. He was too loyal to what he perceived to be the Emperor's Will, and he felt that his place was to fight humanity's battles, not to rule them. However, that was the Emperor's Will when the Emperor was alive. In his absence, the primarchs needed to inherit his kingdom, and Guilliman was the only one left able to do that. Instead, like The Good Son he was, he turned the Imperium over to the High Lords, and went back to Ultramar to lead his Chapter. Run by a succession of greedy humans, the Imperium regressed to what it is today. If Guilliman had run it, you'd probably see a modern, effective Imperial Guard, an efficient Administratum, and he'd definitely have blocked the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which is the most corrupt of the Imperium's institutions.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
IMO, Guilliman didn't want to take the Throne as the new Emperor because he couldn't command the complete trust and respect of his brothers. Only one Primarch had that: Sanguinius. I know I sound like a Sanguinius fanboy, but I'm not. My favorite Primarch is actually Magnus; I'm simply saying the truth - the only one who could have commanded the trust and respect of the remaining Primarchs to assume the Throne safely without risking fracture and a new civil war was Sanguinius, and he died on the Vengeful Spirit. Actually I would argue this was the reason the Emperor tried to leave Sanguinius behind - so he can take the Throne once everything was over. But he insisted on accompanying the Emperor. I've never really bought the idea that Sanguinius created a 'chink' in Horus' armor - the Emperor is not a god, but He has the power of one, and when He unleashed that without any restraint, Horus was obliterated, mind, body, and soul.
I don't think Guilliman cared too much about the approval of his brothers. He wasn't fazed by Dorn's temper tantrum, nor by being told to destroy Lorgar's planet. However, it was quite obvious, even to the other primarchs, that Guilliman was a born administrator and leader. Lorgar and Kol Phaeron talk about Guilliman being the one to inherit the Imperium if something were to happen to the Emperor specifically in First Heretic. And the Word Bearers hated Guilliman. But they knew that out of all the primarchs, Guilliman was the only one who, by the time the Emperor found him, was an emperor himself over the Ultramar systems. Sanguinius was charismatic and a good war leader, and you might argue he would have been a decent Warmaster, but there's a lot more to running an empire than just being charismatic and fighting wars. I don't even think, had he survived, Sanguinius would have even tried or wanted to take command. The primarchs were mostly war leaders and generals, not politicians. Well, except Lorgar, he was just an emo seminary student, lol. But Guilliman was both a general and a statesman.
No, it was definitely his deeply seated convictions about the Emperor's vision for humanity that would have kept him from taking the reins. He was [o]only[/i] concerned about serving the Emperor. He was The Good Son. While Russ was loyal like a dog, doing things without question or understanding, Guilliman was loyal because he understood and embraced the Emperor's vision. What he failed to do was see how he had to abandon the Emperor's vision in order to truly save the Imperium once the Emperor was gone. The crucial part of the Emperor's vision for humanity was being able to lead the Imperium. Obviously, confined to the Golden Throne he could no longer do that. Guilliman put the Imperium back together again, but when he was done, he assumed that it was his job to go back to being a general, not to being an emperor.
As far as buying the "chink in the armor" story, there's nothing to buy. In the original abbreviated fluff, that was what happened. As the story expanded, that piece of the fluff seems to have fallen by the wayside perhaps.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I don't think Guilliman cared too much about the approval of his brothers. He wasn't fazed by Dorn's temper tantrum, nor by being told to destroy Lorgar's planet. However, it was quite obvious, even to the other primarchs, that Guilliman was a born administrator and leader. Lorgar and Kol Phaeron talk about Guilliman being the one to inherit the Imperium if something were to happen to the Emperor specifically in First Heretic. And the Word Bearers hated Guilliman. But they knew that out of all the primarchs, Guilliman was the only one who, by the time the Emperor found him, was an emperor himself over the Ultramar systems. Sanguinius was charismatic and a good war leader, and you might argue he would have been a decent Warmaster, but there's a lot more to running an empire than just being charismatic and fighting wars. I don't even think, had he survived, Sanguinius would have even tried or wanted to take command. The primarchs were mostly war leaders and generals, not politicians. Well, except Lorgar, he was just an emo seminary student, lol. But Guilliman was both a general and a statesman.
Perhaps, but claiming the Throne and imposing the Codex are two different matters. And while I still believe Sanguinius would have made a good Emperor, you're probably right. He would never have claimed the Throne on his own, unless it was unanimously offered to him by the loyal Primarchs, or was actually designated in person by the Emperor. His 'flaw' was humility - he considered himself as simply his father's servant, which is why he insisted on accompanying the Emperor, despite his and the Emperor's precognition warning of his death if he boarded the Vengeful Spirit. Instead of Guilliman taking the Throne, he should have replace Malcador as Lord of the Imperial Administration, Head of the Council of Terra, and Master of Assassins - though Russ and Dorn would have a stroke over the matter.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
That's why I hate him. He's a horrible Mary Sue. His flaw is being "too perfect". That's just the worst writing imaginable.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
That's why I hate him. He's a horrible Mary Sue. His flaw is being "too perfect". That's just the worst writing imaginable.
He is better than the Emperor himself, that's awful.
I will actually go as far as saying he is the worst made hero ever due to how he is written (Marty Stu). But thinking of him would only give me an ulcer.
Most mock worthy primarch hmmm I definately have to say konrad curze just because he got killed by a human assassin because he's so sorry for the betrayal. IF YOUR SO SORRY WHY DO IT IN THE FIRST PLACE? That being said a close second would be Lorgar for being so immature. You told me off for worshipping you as a god I'm going to tell on you to the chaos gods even though you told me not to worship you then I'm going to take it out on the ultrasmurfs because they were there and just stood there
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
That's why I hate him. He's a horrible Mary Sue. His flaw is being "too perfect". That's just the worst writing imaginable.
Actually, if you really look at the character of Guilliman, he's one of the better written ones.
It's very easy to see him as a Mary Sue, until you realize that his failure is what led to the downfall of the Imperium. It's easy to hate people who seem to be without flaws. I've lived with it my entire life.
But in reality, all Guilliman lacked was a cartoony, cliche character hook. He wasn't perfect. He was arrogant, and proud, and gruff. His was hard to like by his fellow primarchs, seemed to lack any pity for weakness amongst his brothers, and while he was an amazing statesman, logistician and general, he lacked a truly greater vision. He simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.
Some of you seem to think that having a "flaw" or being "three dimensional" means being angry, or emo, or hairy and drunk, or die tragically. Want a Mary Sue? Sanguinius, lol. Dude had almost no obvious flaws whatsoever either. Solid general, great warrior, charismatic, amazingly good looking, well loved, among the favorites of the Emperor... The dude might as well have had a little gleam on his teeth and wear a sweater tied around his shoulders. And if he hadn't had toe good grace to die and taint his gene seed with a terrible curse, people would be calling him the Mary Sue of 40K. Guilliman is a very solid, three dimensional character. Just because he's more good than bad doesn't make him poorly written.
So there, if you want to mock Guilliman, that was his fault. Not all the silly crap he usually gets flak for. Guilliman was almost too perfect. In fact, you might argue that he was too perfect, and that was his failing.
That's why I hate him. He's a horrible Mary Sue. His flaw is being "too perfect". That's just the worst writing imaginable.
Actually, if you really look at the character of Guilliman, he's one of the better written ones.
It's very easy to see him as a Mary Sue, until you realize that his failure is what led to the downfall of the Imperium. It's easy to hate people who seem to be without flaws. I've lived with it my entire life.
But in reality, all Guilliman lacked was a cartoony, cliche character hook. He wasn't perfect. He was arrogant, and proud, and gruff. His was hard to like by his fellow primarchs, seemed to lack any pity for weakness amongst his brothers, and while he was an amazing statesman, logistician and general, he lacked a truly greater vision. He simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.
Some of you seem to think that having a "flaw" or being "three dimensional" means being angry, or emo, or hairy and drunk, or die tragically. Want a Mary Sue? Sanguinius, lol. Dude had almost no obvious flaws whatsoever either. Solid general, great warrior, charismatic, amazingly good looking, well loved, among the favorites of the Emperor... The dude might as well have had a little gleam on his teeth and wear a sweater tied around his shoulders. And if he hadn't had toe good grace to die and taint his gene seed with a terrible curse, people would be calling him the Mary Sue of 40K. Guilliman is a very solid, three dimensional character. Just because he's more good than bad doesn't make him poorly written.
Sanguinius had humility, mercy, caring too much, and being too close horus, He was pretty much the weakest of the primarchs in being his own leader, he lacked foresight. Want a mary sue read Marneus calgar and Scarius the ultramarines now are mary sue. Back then no they were not. The mary sue primarchs I can't even name one, because none of them were super may sue like what the lore currently is for space marine chapters and chaos space marines.
But that's because you don't seem to understand what that means.
Guilliman was too obedient and too dedicated, that he couldn't adapt, or do the right thing in the end.
Look, it's obvious you've read 1d4chan one too many times, and you'll never understand the depth to the character. It's cool. But I find it hilarious that you fault Guilliman for being a Mary Sue without noticing his shining, perfect brother Sanguinius standing right beside him. A character written without a single flaw. Guilliman's biggest failure, in your eyes, was to have the gall of being awesome without having the decency to die a tragic death.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote:Sanguinius had humility, mercy, caring too much, and being too close horus,
How so? He still resisted Horus's temptations. He might have been good friends with Horus, but that's not a flaw, lol. That's just a plot point. In the end, he stayed loyal, he fought to his death nobly against a foe he had no chance of defeating, and being a martyr. I mean, he couldn't be more generic. And that's not his fault. I vastly prefer the idea of the primarch as realistic characters, not with cartoonishly overstated character flaws and generic, stolen plot hooks. Like Guilliman, or Vulkan, Sanguinius was just a really powerful, genetically engineered super-human. They were all proud, and a little arrogant, and well known for being a bit more in touch with their human counterparts. It's hilarious that Guilliman gets all the hate, when the only thing that makes him any different from them is that he was just written to be slightly more successful as a general, and didn't die.
Asherian Command wrote:Sanguinius had humility, mercy, caring too much, and being too close horus, He was pretty much the weakest of the primarchs in being his own leader, he lacked foresight. Want a mary sue read Marneus calgar and Scarius the ultramarines now are mary sue. Back then no they were not. The mary sue primarchs I can't even name one, because none of them were super may sue like what the lore currently is for space marine chapters and chaos space marines.
I disagree. Sanguinius had humility, but mercy? The duality of the Blood Angels is one of the aspects that first drew me to them, and that comes from their primarch. He was wise and humble, but in battle he was an absolute holy terror and was merciless. I also don't understand how you can say he lacked foresight, one of his psychic gifts is named foresight. It wasn't that he had no dream of his own and simply did whatever the Emperor told him to, he truly shared the Emperor's dream for humanity.
VeteranSergeant, you've read too much Matt Ward. And no, I don't think a character needs to be dark and angsty to be well written. But at the same time, a character can't have absolutely everything. Imagine Lord of the Rings if Aragorn were a better wizard than Gandolf, a better archer than Legolas, stronger than Gimli, more cunning than Saruman and more powerful than Sauron. And imagine that he destroys the ring by stomping on it and the series ends about 1000 pages earlier. Then imagine if I said he's a good character because his flaw is that he's too perfect. Then imagine that when you disagree with me, I claim you have no literary taste and that you're a loser who wastes all his time on 1d4chan.
There ya go.
Now I'm gonna add ya to my ignore list because its clear you've put an emotional investment into your support of the Ultramarines and that you'll never change yer mind. Any discussion on this matter would just result in flame wars and waht not.
DarkStarSabre wrote:It's like a webcomic I read a few years back where someone pointed out that Star Wars would've been much, much more different if Yoda had just chucked Anakin a pack of trojans and told him to be prepared.
Or if Anakin hadn't, you know, force choked the person who he was whining about being in danger of dying...
Lames line in cinema history
Anakin: if your not with me... ( Me: Oh hes totally gonna say, if your not with me your against me) then your my enemy
O.O WTF?! Thats like saying a bird in hand is like crying over spilled milk
Tadashi wrote:Who the hell said Russ was the wisest, strongest, and best general among them? Magnus (pre-Heresy) was the wisest, Ferrus Manus/Vulkan were the strongest, and Horus was the best general. Post-Heresy, Guilliman was the wisest, Vulkan was still the strongest, and Lion/Guilliman was the best general.
On-topic, most mock-worthy would be Russ, because he's a douche.
Russ was the only one to ever spar hand to hand with the emperor and be nearly his equal at it.
Tadashi wrote:Who the hell said Russ was the wisest, strongest, and best general among them? Magnus (pre-Heresy) was the wisest, Ferrus Manus/Vulkan were the strongest, and Horus was the best general. Post-Heresy, Guilliman was the wisest, Vulkan was still the strongest, and Lion/Guilliman was the best general.
On-topic, most mock-worthy would be Russ, because he's a douche.
Russ was the only one to ever spar hand to hand with the emperor and be nearly his equal at it.
Ever heard of a guy named Horus? AKA, the greatest of the Primarchs before he fell?
Angron would rip Russ' head off with ease, and Sanguinius would cut his limbs off without breaking a sweat. He also got knocked out by a sucker-punch from Lion. And Magnus would have beaten him if only Magnus wasn't dividing his attention between Russ and preparing to transport the Thousand Sons and the City of Light to the Planet of the Sorcerers. If he concentrated on beating Russ, Russ would have been defeated with ease.
Most mock-worthy Primarch? Nah. Sure, a couple make poor choices or handle some situations poorly, but that doesn't make them mock worthy. The mock worthy one is the Emperor, whose poor leadership allowed for so many mistakes to occur.
LoneLictor wrote:VeteranSergeant, you've read too much Matt Ward
lol. It's easy to say that to dismiss me, but it isn't true, and you know it.
But at the same time, a character can't have absolutely everything.
What everything? Guilliman was a statesman and leader, but he was arrogant and gruff, and not well liked enough by his brothers to be Warmaster. You keep saying that a good character can't have everything. But you continue to fail to mention how Sanguinius isn't worse in this regard than Guilliman, and you claim Sanguinius is a good character. At this point, you're just being stubborn because I've proven you wrong and you don't want to admit it.
Now I'm gonna add ya to my ignore list because its clear you've put an emotional investment into your support of the Ultramarines and that you'll never change yer mind. Any discussion on this matter would just result in flame wars and waht not.
Haha. Somebody steps up and says "Wait, that doesn't make any sense" and suddenly I have an "emotional investment in the Ultramarines". Jebus dude. Can your argument get any more pathetic? I didn't attack you for liking Sanguinius. I just said you were wrong about Guilliman, and it's pretty easy to do that without being a fanboy. I can give you some pretty in depth character analysis of quite a few of the primarchs. Do I have an emotional investment in them too? The only one here with an emotional investment here seems to be you, because you're the only one crying about it. Grow the heck up, lol. You act like a petulant child who got put in their place. Kinda like Lorgar.
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?
He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.
What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.
Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?
He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.
What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.
Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?
He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.
What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.
Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".
Good lord, this. FULL OF WIN!
Let's see, Lion, Magnus, Angron, Curze (surprisingly, the two couldn't hold their liquor), are all passed out, reeking of alcohol, while Russ, Dorn, Mortarion, and Horus are still struggling to prove who can drink more, while a gaggle of supposedly dead, and miraculously revived, and 'de-scarred' Sororitas cheer them on. Yes, lots of revived and beautified Sororitas are with the party, with the largest group going all bloody-nosed over Fulgrim and Sanguinius on the dance floor. Meanwhile, the Twins are playing a guessing game (who is Alpharius and who is Omegon) with another bunch of Sororitas, who are getting sulkier and sulkier with each minute (not that they really notice it, the room is time-stopped). The Emperor, Lorgar, Khan, and Perturabo are all having fun with truth or dare, and Manus seems to be having fun 'encouraging' the loser of each round to tell the truth. Drunken Corax and Gulliman don't seem to notice the booing of the Sororitas at their terrible singing at the karaoke stand, and while the Salamanders watch with their mouths open, Vulkan walks up to them, his arms around the shoulders of two Sororitas, and asks them: 'what took you so long?'
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?
He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.
What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.
Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".
Well as much as I would love to believe this.
I would agree it would be awesome.
But not impossible. Knowing how GW writes it's lore, they might say oh wait "WERE KIDDING! The primarchs are all still alive."
I want that to happen so, SO badly. Maybe if GW goes down and they kill 40K in the process. Of course, then we can have the second great crusade where they all go out and curbstomp the galaxy into submission.
BrotherGnaeus wrote:I say Vulkan, cause what did he really do?
He made a Scavenger Hunt, duh.
What happens when the scavenger hunt ends? They find a hidden Webway Gate that leads through a special tunnel in the Webway unknown even to the Harlequins, leading to a hidden room in the Imperial Palace. What do they find? The Emperor and all eighteen Primarchs partying in a time-stopped room behind the Throne Room.
Turns out the corpses on the Golden Throne and the Temple of Correction were just faux bodies - even that sleeping body in the Rock is an artfully constructed android. All the High Lords watch aghast as the Emperor, flanked by Sanguinius and Horus, followed by the other Primarchs, walk into the Council chambers, and say "YOUR ALL FIRED!".
Good lord, this. FULL OF WIN!
Let's see, Lion, Magnus, Angron, Curze (surprisingly, the two couldn't hold their liquor), are all passed out, reeking of alcohol, while Russ, Dorn, Mortarion, and Horus are still struggling to prove who can drink more, while a gaggle of supposedly dead, and miraculously revived, and 'de-scarred' Sororitas cheer them on. Yes, lots of revived and beautified Sororitas are with the party, with the largest group going all bloody-nosed over Fulgrim and Sanguinius on the dance floor. Meanwhile, the Twins are playing a guessing game (who is Alpharius and who is Omegon) with another bunch of Sororitas, who are getting sulkier and sulkier with each minute (not that they really notice it, the room is time-stopped). The Emperor, Lorgar, Khan, and Perturabo are all having fun with truth or dare, and Manus seems to be having fun 'encouraging' the loser of each round to tell the truth. Drunken Corax and Gulliman don't seem to notice the booing of the Sororitas at their terrible singing at the karaoke stand, and while the Salamanders watch with their mouths open, Vulkan walks up to them, his arms around the shoulders of two Sororitas, and asks them: 'what took you so long?'
This is 6th Ed. THIS NEEDS TO BE IT! Someone inform GW!
I'm going to give what may be a rather controversial opinion: Sanguinius.
When he beamed up to Horus' battle barge and fought him, he didn't just die. He got mangled. So much so that Horus was able to kill him off and then almost immediately fight the most powerful warrior ever seen and STILL almost beat him. Now sure, Horus may have been glutted on the power of the chaos gods, however, if Sanguinius is really the ferocious fighter that everyone makes him out to be, I think that he would have at least slowed Horus down a bit. I have a hard time believing that a primarch would be able to easily slay another primarch unless the other one was a total chump.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:[Guilliman] simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.
Really? The current Imperium is according to the Emperor's vision? Have you read the Horus Heresy books?
The Emperor's vision was nothing like the Imperium today. He wanted to stamp out religion and superstition, not embrace it as the immortal God-Emperor. He wanted to encourage mankind to pursue new directions, not shut down technological innovation. The Legions were supposed to be reflections of their Primarchs, not carbon copies of Guilliman's vision.
In short, the Imperium of the 41st millenium is nothing like what the Emperor envisioned. Maybe Gulliman kept the Imperium together and gave it some direction (bowing to the God Emperor), but he didn't do it in accordance with the Emperor's vision.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:[Guilliman] simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.
Really? The current Imperium is according to the Emperor's vision? Have you read the Horus Heresy books?
The Emperor's vision was nothing like the Imperium today. He wanted to stamp out religion and superstition, not embrace it as the immortal God-Emperor. He wanted to encourage mankind to pursue new directions, not shut down technological innovation. The Legions were supposed to be reflections of their Primarchs, not carbon copies of Guilliman's vision.
In short, the Imperium of the 41st millenium is nothing like what the Emperor envisioned. Maybe Gulliman kept the Imperium together and gave it some direction (bowing to the God Emperor), but he didn't do it in accordance with the Emperor's vision.
Hence the most mock worthy primarch is Rowboat Girlyman!
Veteran Sergeant wrote:[Guilliman] simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.
Really? The current Imperium is according to the Emperor's vision? Have you read the Horus Heresy books?
The Emperor's vision was nothing like the Imperium today. He wanted to stamp out religion and superstition, not embrace it as the immortal God-Emperor. He wanted to encourage mankind to pursue new directions, not shut down technological innovation. The Legions were supposed to be reflections of their Primarchs, not carbon copies of Guilliman's vision.
In short, the Imperium of the 41st millenium is nothing like what the Emperor envisioned. Maybe Gulliman kept the Imperium together and gave it some direction (bowing to the God Emperor), but he didn't do it in accordance with the Emperor's vision.
And yet the Inner Circle of the Ordo Malleus which reports directly to the Emperor did nothing. Sounds a lot like the Emperor approved. He may not have liked it, but He understood the need and let it happen. Or did you forget the founders of the Adepta Sororitas being brought before the Emperor by the Custodians?
Tadashi wrote:...which reports directly to the Emperor did nothing...
Corpses are well known for being nonresponsive when you ask them questions.
Inquisitor Draco begs to differ. The Emperor communicates telepathically, duh.
Tadashi wrote:Sounds a lot like the Emperor approved...
How'd that go with the Word Bearers?
And I wonder how the Sisters' audience went...hmmm, if I remember correctly, they didn't get reprimanded for essentially being zealots by the Emperor. Monarchia was during the Great Crusade when the Imperial Truth still stood a chance of working. But with the events of the Horus Heresy, the Imperial Truth has absolutely no chance of working. Even the Astartes can barely keep it up; the only thing that could have filled the vacuum apart from the Ecclesiarchy is Chaos. Obviously, a lesser evil was chosen.
GimbleMuggernaught wrote:I'm going to give what may be a rather controversial opinion: Sanguinius.
When he beamed up to Horus' battle barge and fought him, he didn't just die. He got mangled. So much so that Horus was able to kill him off and then almost immediately fight the most powerful warrior ever seen and STILL almost beat him. Now sure, Horus may have been glutted on the power of the chaos gods, however, if Sanguinius is really the ferocious fighter that everyone makes him out to be, I think that he would have at least slowed Horus down a bit. I have a hard time believing that a primarch would be able to easily slay another primarch unless the other one was a total chump.
I could agree about Sanguinius, but for a different reason.
Sanquinius is portrayed as the this, that, and the other of awesomesauce, yet his chapter/legion whatever you all call it are pretty much the exact opposite of everything he is portrayed to be. Bloodthirsty lunitic vampires that go crazy and need to be locked into their rooms. At least most chapters seem to follow the attitudes and skill sets of their primarchs, but the BA of now are very different than how Sanguinius is presented. You can only laugh at such utter failure as a father figure.
Reasons for each primarch being mock worthy
r
Angrom- just for being a pissed of teenager all the time
Alpharius and omegron - for not being able to have a straight face to face fight
Konrad curze _- allowing a human to kill him
Lorgar for being so immature
Fulgrim for being possesed by a daemon
Horus - for being a wuss at the end of his life and also always being a show off
Peturbo- well I can't think of anything for him please feel free to throw something in here
Mortarion- for being so dramatic at the conclaveof nikea
Magnus for allowing his homeworld to be burnt and then at the last moment when all the damages has been done deciding he wants a piece of russ and then losing
Guilliman splitting all loyalist legions down into chapters futher weakening humanites defenders even further
Russ for being so gullible and for being so easily duped and then running off into the warp
Ferrus manus for being beaten by a prissy little wuss like fulgrim (who if you gave a slap to would probably cry that you ruined his make-up)
Vulkan for just upping and leaving his legion for no good reason
Dorn for being so strategically over rated and leaving the palace to get blown up(or part of it)
Jaghatai khan for running after dark eldar and as a result getting lost
Sanguinius for trying to talk A quite clearly insane warmaster from his path
Lion for being beaten by a human when he was fighting a. human (who was possesed) at full power with no handicaps and losing
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blatantly when horus and sanguinius spoke to each other horus was like
'join the side of chaos we have cookies'
sanguinius 'horus you know I've always been a cake person you done this at my birthday party brought me a giant cookie instead of a cake.' '
Horus 'ahave one of my cookies I just baked them'
sanguinius 'no I don't like cookies'
horus. 'YOU DON'T LIKE COOKIES DIE'
GimbleMuggernaught wrote:I'm going to give what may be a rather controversial opinion: Sanguinius.
When he beamed up to Horus' battle barge and fought him, he didn't just die. He got mangled. So much so that Horus was able to kill him off and then almost immediately fight the most powerful warrior ever seen and STILL almost beat him. Now sure, Horus may have been glutted on the power of the chaos gods, however, if Sanguinius is really the ferocious fighter that everyone makes him out to be, I think that he would have at least slowed Horus down a bit. I have a hard time believing that a primarch would be able to easily slay another primarch unless the other one was a total chump.
I could agree about Sanguinius, but for a different reason.
Sanquinius is portrayed as the this, that, and the other of awesomesauce, yet his chapter/legion whatever you all call it are pretty much the exact opposite of everything he is portrayed to be. Bloodthirsty lunitic vampires that go crazy and need to be locked into their rooms. At least most chapters seem to follow the attitudes and skill sets of their primarchs, but the BA of now are very different than how Sanguinius is presented. You can only laugh at such utter failure as a father figure.
They go into rage because they have visions of Sanguinius getting mauled by Horus.
GimbleMuggernaught wrote:I'm going to give what may be a rather controversial opinion: Sanguinius.
When he beamed up to Horus' battle barge and fought him, he didn't just die. He got mangled. So much so that Horus was able to kill him off and then almost immediately fight the most powerful warrior ever seen and STILL almost beat him. Now sure, Horus may have been glutted on the power of the chaos gods, however, if Sanguinius is really the ferocious fighter that everyone makes him out to be, I think that he would have at least slowed Horus down a bit. I have a hard time believing that a primarch would be able to easily slay another primarch unless the other one was a total chump.
I could agree about Sanguinius, but for a different reason.
Sanquinius is portrayed as the this, that, and the other of awesomesauce, yet his chapter/legion whatever you all call it are pretty much the exact opposite of everything he is portrayed to be. Bloodthirsty lunitic vampires that go crazy and need to be locked into their rooms. At least most chapters seem to follow the attitudes and skill sets of their primarchs, but the BA of now are very different than how Sanguinius is presented. You can only laugh at such utter failure as a father figure.
You could argue though that he had nothing to do with their craziness. It's kinda something that happened after his time, though I suppose his gene-seed could be blamed.
The only thing Sanguinius could have done to prevent the Blood Angels current problems is not die. Don't forget that they went berserk when he was knocked unconscious by Ka'Bandha on Signus Prime too. For whatever reason the Blood Angels all have/had close psychic ties to their primarch and it seems that his presence regulated their flaws.
Ultimately, even though all of the primarchs had their flaws (as they were supposed to. They were humans turned up to eleven, not the whole Superman, the-best-we-have-to-offer that people mistake them for), my prize goes to Russ, since he happens to hold all of the flaws that get my goat; unthinking, often self-contradictory superstition, blind loyalty, a fratboy-like lifestyle and demeanor, and childish, idiotic impulsiveness.
Reasons for each primarch being mock worthy
r
Angrom- just for being a pissed of teenager all the time
Alpharius and omegron - for not being able to have a straight face to face fight
Konrad curze _- allowing a human to kill him
Lorgar for being so immature
Fulgrim for being possesed by a daemon
Horus - for being a wuss at the end of his life and also always being a show off
Peturbo- well I can't think of anything for him please feel free to throw something in here
Mortarion- for being so dramatic at the conclaveof nikea
Magnus for allowing his homeworld to be burnt and then at the last moment when all the damages has been done deciding he wants a piece of russ and then losing
Guilliman splitting all loyalist legions down into chapters futher weakening humanites defenders even further
Russ for being so gullible and for being so easily duped and then running off into the warp
Ferrus manus for being beaten by a prissy little wuss like fulgrim (who if you gave a slap to would probably cry that you ruined his make-up)
Vulkan for just upping and leaving his legion for no good reason
Dorn for being so strategically over rated and leaving the palace to get blown up(or part of it)
Jaghatai khan for running after dark eldar and as a result getting lost
Sanguinius for trying to talk A quite clearly insane warmaster from his path
Lion for being beaten by a human when he was fighting a. human (who was possesed) at full power with no handicaps and losing
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blatantly when horus and sanguinius spoke to each other horus was like
'join the side of chaos we have cookies'
sanguinius 'horus you know I've always been a cake person you done this at my birthday party brought me a giant cookie instead of a cake.' '
Horus 'ahave one of my cookies I just baked them'
sanguinius 'no I don't like cookies'
horus. 'YOU DON'T LIKE COOKIES DIE'
You forgot that Guilliman also got cut down by Fulgrim (who also exorcised himself)
Reasons for each primarch being mock worthy
r
Angrom- just for being a pissed of teenager all the time
Alpharius and omegron - for not being able to have a straight face to face fight
Konrad curze _- allowing a human to kill him
Lorgar for being so immature
Fulgrim for being possesed by a daemon
Horus - for being a wuss at the end of his life and also always being a show off
Peturbo- well I can't think of anything for him please feel free to throw something in here
Mortarion- for being so dramatic at the conclaveof nikea
Magnus for allowing his homeworld to be burnt and then at the last moment when all the damages has been done deciding he wants a piece of russ and then losing
Guilliman splitting all loyalist legions down into chapters futher weakening humanites defenders even further
Russ for being so gullible and for being so easily duped and then running off into the warp
Ferrus manus for being beaten by a prissy little wuss like fulgrim (who if you gave a slap to would probably cry that you ruined his make-up)
Vulkan for just upping and leaving his legion for no good reason
Dorn for being so strategically over rated and leaving the palace to get blown up(or part of it)
Jaghatai khan for running after dark eldar and as a result getting lost
Sanguinius for trying to talk A quite clearly insane warmaster from his path
Lion for being beaten by a human when he was fighting a. human (who was possesed) at full power with no handicaps and losing
Automatically Appended Next Post: Blatantly when horus and sanguinius spoke to each other horus was like
'join the side of chaos we have cookies'
sanguinius 'horus you know I've always been a cake person you done this at my birthday party brought me a giant cookie instead of a cake.' '
Horus 'ahave one of my cookies I just baked them'
sanguinius 'no I don't like cookies'
horus. 'YOU DON'T LIKE COOKIES DIE'
You forgot that Guilliman also got cut down by Fulgrim (who also exorcised himself)
I've read about that, but I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt - for every truth a daemon speaks nine lies.
GimbleMuggernaught wrote:I have a hard time believing that a primarch would be able to easily slay another primarch unless the other one was a total chump.
Horus was empowered by all four of the great Ruinous Powers. No Primarch would have stood a change against a Primarch so strengthened, let alone one who had been fighting almost non-stop for three days. There was only one way that fight could have gone down.
Jayden63 wrote:At least most chapters seem to follow the attitudes and skill sets of their primarchs, but the BA of now are very different than how Sanguinius is presented.
Actually, they aren't that dissimilar. Sanguinius always had to fight against his inner rage to stop it from controlling him. He was brutal in combat. The Blood Angel curse doesn't really have anything to do with Sanguinius could have stopped, since it is gene-seed based. Basically, like Sanguinius they have to fight against overwhelming anger, but unlike Sanguinius, not all of them are able to resist it forever.
Dorn, well, he's...he's ROGAL he is.
Man that name is just...what kind of mouldering name IS that?
hey, not very many people have said Khan is bad.
LOL Rawbutt Girlyman....makes every space marine read a book likes it's the Bible or something (not trying to insult anyone)
Angron goes for bad name too, but when the Emprah found him he was already pissed at the death of his gladiator buddies, so I have no idea what point I am trying to make.
I actually think Khan is the worst. I can't think of anything he accomplished other than being a stupid Mongol knock-off and getting lost in Comorragh. Also his chapter is way into bikes and IMO Space Marines on bikes just looks...wrong. Only the Ravenwing and some CSM's pull it off I think.
asimo77 wrote:I actually think Khan is the worst. I can't think of anything he accomplished other than being a stupid Mongol knock-off and getting lost in Comorragh.
While he doesn't have much background, he was crucial in the defence of Terra during the Horus Heresy. The whole seizing one of the two spaceports delayed the Chaos forces sufficiently for what occurred to play out. Without him, Terra would have fallen.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:[Guilliman] simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.
Really? The current Imperium is according to the Emperor's vision? Have you read the Horus Heresy books
Obviously you, and the poster above you, are terribly, terribly confused about the concept I'm laying down.
The state of the current Imperium is the fault of inept human leadership, not Guilliman. If Guilliman had been able to realize that his place was as the new Emperor, and not back with the Ultramarines, the Imperium would have been a different place today. Or at least a different place for as long as whatever a primarch's natural life span is. He would have prevented the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, created a more efficient Administratum in the model of Ultramar, etc. But, he didn't. Guilliman took charge, reconquered the galaxy, set up a new government, codified a bunch of things... But then he stepped down from the High Lords and went back to being a general. It was at that point that the Imperium changed. Guilliman thought his place was fighting humanity's battles, not leading it. That was probably all that he ever understood from the Emperor, because the Emperor never told his primarch sons what his ultimate goals were. It's part of what Chaos used to turn Horus.
The problem with the Imperium is that in the absence of a single strong leader, it was destined for corruption. Honestly, we have an incredibly fluff problem here, because we have been told that Guilliman was an administrative genius, and yet the fluff written before that already laid out an Imperium that was run by corrupt humans in an expansive bureaucracy. So it creates a bit of a fluff disconnect that we have to adapt to. Logically, Guilliman should have taken over as Emperor. It makes sense that he would have done so because he was the best suited for the job, and, honestly, probably the only primarch other than Dorn who would have been willing to. Can't imagine Russ or Corax or Khan having any interest in that gig, nor any talent for it. Guilliman and Dorn would have done it out of a sense of duty. However, Dorn was off playing crusader and hide-and-seek on a space hulk still while Guilliman was laying out all of the new rules .
So, despite the fact that logically Guilliman should have been Emperor II, because the fluff says that Guilliman stepped down and went back to the Ultramarines, we have to come up with some kind of rationale for it. The only one that seems feasible is that because the Emperor had decreed that the primarchs were to fight humanity's battles, Guilliman believed that he was not supposed to rule humanity. It really doesn't make any sense, but it's what we have to work with. However, blaming the current state of 40K on Guilliman "not understanding the Emperor's vision" is idiotic. The decline of the Imperium is due to the inefficiency of the Administratum and Imperial Guard, as well as the corruption of the Ecclesiarchy that has evolved over 10,000 years. It has nothing to do with anything Guilliman did.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Decio wrote:LOL Rawbutt Girlyman....makes every space marine read a book likes it's the Bible or something (not trying to insult anyone)
You do realize that all the greatest warfighters in modern times, all the greatest generals, have read countless books on warfare in the process of becoming better generals. Several of history's greatest generals wrote those books.
The Codex Astartes isn't just "a book". It's the book on warfare. Like taking all of the greatest military tomes in history, and combining them together. For compiling the Codex Astartes, Guilliman should be referred to with the same tone as we would Sun Tzu, or Clausewitz, etc. If you're going to make fun of Guilliman for compiling the Codex, or you honestly believe that there's nothing to be gained from treatises on warfighting and that modern soldiers don't read, it's pretty obvious you don't have a single clue about fighting wars or combat, or anything, lol.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:[Guilliman] simply was one of the most intelligent primarchs, and was able to see the Emperor's vision, embrace it, and further it. Once the Emperor was gone, he was somewhat lost as what to do after putting the Imperium back together.
Really? The current Imperium is according to the Emperor's vision? Have you read the Horus Heresy books
Obviously you, and the poster above you, are terribly, terribly confused about the concept I'm laying down.
The state of the current Imperium is the fault of inept human leadership, not Guilliman. If Guilliman had been able to realize that his place was as the new Emperor, and not back with the Ultramarines, the Imperium would have been a different place today. Or at least a different place for as long as whatever a primarch's natural life span is. He would have prevented the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, created a more efficient Administratum in the model of Ultramar, etc. But, he didn't. Guilliman took charge, reconquered the galaxy, set up a new government, codified a bunch of things... But then he stepped down from the High Lords and went back to being a general. It was at that point that the Imperium changed. Guilliman thought his place was fighting humanity's battles, not leading it. That was probably all that he ever understood from the Emperor, because the Emperor never told his primarch sons what his ultimate goals were. It's part of what Chaos used to turn Horus.
The problem with the Imperium is that in the absence of a single strong leader, it was destined for corruption. Honestly, we have an incredibly fluff problem here, because we have been told that Guilliman was an administrative genius, and yet the fluff written before that already laid out an Imperium that was run by corrupt humans in an expansive bureaucracy. So it creates a bit of a fluff disconnect that we have to adapt to. Logically, Guilliman should have taken over as Emperor. It makes sense that he would have done so because he was the best suited for the job, and, honestly, probably the only primarch other than Dorn who would have been willing to. Can't imagine Russ or Corax or Khan having any interest in that gig, nor any talent for it. Guilliman and Dorn would have done it out of a sense of duty. However, Dorn was off playing crusader and hide-and-seek on a space hulk still while Guilliman was laying out all of the new rules .
So, despite the fact that logically Guilliman should have been Emperor II, because the fluff says that Guilliman stepped down and went back to the Ultramarines, we have to come up with some kind of rationale for it. The only one that seems feasible is that because the Emperor had decreed that the primarchs were to fight humanity's battles, Guilliman believed that he was not supposed to rule humanity. It really doesn't make any sense, but it's what we have to work with. However, blaming the current state of 40K on Guilliman "not understanding the Emperor's vision" is idiotic. The decline of the Imperium is due to the inefficiency of the Administratum and Imperial Guard, as well as the corruption of the Ecclesiarchy that has evolved over 10,000 years. It has nothing to do with anything Guilliman did.
Give it up...Ward's pretty much ruined most people's respect for the original Lord of Ultramar and the Ultramarines. Don't get me wrong though. I completely agree with what you said. If Sanguinius had lived and threw his support behind Guilliman as the new Emperor (sorry, but I can't take Emperor II seriously - I knew the man had a name, so it's really funny for a reason. ), no one would have complained. Sanguinius would probably have been declared Warmaster to replace dead Horus.
Decio wrote:LOL Rawbutt Girlyman....makes every space marine read a book likes it's the Bible or something (not trying to insult anyone)
You do realize that all the greatest warfighters in modern times, all the greatest generals, have read countless books on warfare in the process of becoming better generals. Several of history's greatest generals wrote those books.
The Codex Astartes isn't just "a book". It's the book on warfare. Like taking all of the greatest military tomes in history, and combining them together. For compiling the Codex Astartes, Guilliman should be referred to with the same tone as we would Sun Tzu, or Clausewitz, etc. If you're going to make fun of Guilliman for compiling the Codex, or you honestly believe that there's nothing to be gained from treatises on warfighting and that modern soldiers don't read, it's pretty obvious you don't have a single clue about fighting wars or combat, or anything, lol.
I don't think it's just a book. It's probably a big volume or a small compilation of multiple volumes at least, and a small library at most dedicated to tactics and such.
Sorry, I understand that a lot of people dislike Gulliman, (and I'm not going to say they don't have their reasons) but I don't think that any Primarch can possibly compare to Fulgrim in the dingbat department. Everything that people use as their reason for picking another Primarch was done in greater extremity by Fulgrim. He is more of an insufferable dick than Gulliman, more of a nancy boy than Sanguinius, and dumber than Leman Russ.
"Waaah! I'm a nine-foot-tall superman who looks like Fabio had a lovechild with a Calvin Klein ad, and am in charge of one of the Big E's most favoritist groups of other genetic supermen, but if only I could make better macaroni art!"
"Well, hey there, guy! Buck up. You know what's better than macaroni art? Feces paintings."
"Whoa, mister alien sword guy! That's a good idea. Hey, wait a minute. You aren't evil are you?"
"Who me? Hey, you know what else is fun? Genital mutilation!"
"You know, that could be fun. Wait, mine or someone else's?"
"Either way."
Seriously. Seriously. The most mock-worthy Primarch? The guy who fell victim to a ploy so transparent a preschooler would know better.
I've read about that, but I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt - for every truth a daemon speaks nine lies.
The story isn't told from the mouth of Fulgrim, it's told in the IA article on the Ultramarines.
No, not the part about Fulgrim incapacitating Gulliman. By the Throne, who wouldn't know about that. Well, maybe those new to the fluff but that's not the point. I was referring to the fact that Fulgrim supposedly exorcised himself.
I've read about that, but I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt - for every truth a daemon speaks nine lies.
The story isn't told from the mouth of Fulgrim, it's told in the IA article on the Ultramarines.
No, not the part about Fulgrim incapacitating Gulliman. By the Throne, who wouldn't know about that. Well, maybe those new to the fluff but that's not the point. I was referring to the fact that Fulgrim supposedly exorcised himself.
I see, and in that case, if Fulgrim did exorcise the Daemon then he isn't lying
Will have to wait and see on this one but I'm also unsure as to if it's Daemon - Fulgrim or Fulgrim Fulgrim. I hope we have Fulgrim back as I never liked the possession story line.
I've read about that, but I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt - for every truth a daemon speaks nine lies.
The story isn't told from the mouth of Fulgrim, it's told in the IA article on the Ultramarines.
No, not the part about Fulgrim incapacitating Gulliman. By the Throne, who wouldn't know about that. Well, maybe those new to the fluff but that's not the point. I was referring to the fact that Fulgrim supposedly exorcised himself.
I see, and in that case, if Fulgrim did exorcise the Daemon then he isn't lying
Will have to wait and see on this one but I'm also unsure as to if it's Daemon - Fulgrim or Fulgrim Fulgrim. I hope we have Fulgrim back as I never liked the possession story line.
Agreed - I would prefer Fulgrim falling by his own choice instead of getting possessed and so on...
I like the old version of Fulgrim. Makes Fulgrim more tragic, and it gives him a unique story. All the other primarchs fell to Chaos by choice. A Daemon taking control of Fulgrim is much cooler than him "letting it happen" "just as planned". Fulgrim fell to Slaanesh. No taking Tzeentch's internet meme.
Jimsolo wrote:Sorry, I understand that a lot of people dislike Gulliman, (and I'm not going to say they don't have their reasons).
I'd be willing to say that they don't. Most people's hatred of Guilliman is absurdly unfounded. The funniest of it are the people who talk about themselves in the first person plural because they play Black Templars or Space Wolves.
Jimsolo wrote:Sorry, I understand that a lot of people dislike Gulliman, (and I'm not going to say they don't have their reasons).
I'd be willing to say that they don't. Most people's hatred of Guilliman is absurdly unfounded. The funniest of it are the people who talk about themselves in the first person plural because they play Black Templars or Space Wolves.
I hate him because he drafted the codex astartes (capping their numbers is terrible in the long run in that it greatly limits their numbers while not dealing with the mini empires), was hypocritical "no one can be trusted so I am tearing the legions apart, but it is okay, I still get to keep my empire", and worst of all instead of continuing to lead the Imperium from the rear (regardless of his flaws he was still a genius that few mortals can compare to if any) he decided to wander off, fight Fulgrim and get his throat cut. People always talk about how much the Imperium could improve if just a single primarch that was never much of a politician (Russ or Khan) came back, but what if one of the primarchs that is the most respected by the mass population never left or died to begin with?
TBH I wouldn't mind the codex astartes if he switched just two things around
Every chapter gets one world/system to recruit from, no more, if it is destroyed or falls they can get a new one.
Every chapter can be as large as it wants.
Even if a chapter was to recruit a lot of marines it would still only be limited to a single system, and when they revolted other chapters could simply invade that one system en masse.
I'm with you. That's a valid criticism. I've suggested that Guilliman is the 40K universe's greatest villain because he could have taken the reigns and become the Emperor II, and saved the Imperium. Instead, by not taking over, the Imperium went on to be ruled by increasingly corrupt human factions. Of course, we don't know exactly why Guilliman stepped down. But it's unquestioned that he was the only person qualified to run the Imperium in the absence of the Emperor. I don't really see the hypocrisy of Ultramar though. He had that before the Emperor found him, and he gave away the rest of the planets the Ultramarines had conquered to the 2nd Founding chapters or back to the Imperium.
I think capping the Chapters at 10,000 seems a bit better, and more feasible given the scope of 40K. A Marine Chapter could then be split into Battalions and Companies. But, it is what it is. The idea of 1000 man Chapters came out in Rogue Trader in 1988 before Guilliman had ever been mentioned.
It was my impression that people don't hate Guilliman, they just find him kind of boring or bland. Which is odd becuase a lot of those people, myself included, think Dorn is awesome. I think because he's tangentially related to Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, and Soul Drinkers who are all cool IMO.
Eh, I think Guilliman and Dorn were sort of the butthurt jerkwad twins. One would slander your tactics for not being his and the other would slander them for not being "manly."
Fulgrim is completely disqualified from being the most mock-worthy Primarch by virtue of the fact that he has the best K/D ratio of all the Primarchs.
- Literally punched out an Avatar after gripping said Avatar's flaming sword with his bare hands (the greatest act of "Male-ness" in the entire 40K mythos).
- Golf-Putted Ferrus Mannus' in the face with his own hammer so hard his back snapped. Later beheaded his ass.
-Got possessed by a daemon than later exorcised it without help from anyone (Impossibruh!).
-Led a lolRape-fest across all of Terra during the Siege.
- Slit Gurlyman's throat.
No other Primarch comes close to his level of absurd awesomeness.
BlaxicanX wrote:Fulgrim is completely disqualified from being the most mock-worthy Primarch by virtue of the fact that he has the best K/D ratio of all the Primarchs.
- Literally punched out an Avatar after gripping said Avatar's flaming sword with his bare hands (the greatest act of "Male-ness" in the entire 40K mythos).
BlaxicanX wrote:Fulgrim is completely disqualified from being the most mock-worthy Primarch by virtue of the fact that he has the best K/D ratio of all the Primarchs.
- Literally punched out an Avatar after gripping said Avatar's flaming sword with his bare hands (the greatest act of "Male-ness" in the entire 40K mythos).
Any Space Marines , Non of them are Worthy of Regognition , All they do is Go in and Take the Credit for what the Guard do . Over all the Guard go in and hold the Line and once they are on the verge of victory then the Space Marines come in and lose the Battle For Them .
Kasrkin229 wrote:Any Space Marines , Non of them are Worthy of Regognition , All they do is Go in and Take the Credit for what the Guard do . Over all the Guard go in and hold the Line and once they are on the verge of victory then the Space Marines come in and lose the Battle For Them .
Wow... I guess we know your favorite faction. In all seriousness, though, that's just a load of gak. Maybe they're not the all-powerful warrior-angels that the Imperial propaganda would have you believe, but they sure as all hell are potent soldiers. Easily one of the most powerful assets mankind has access to.
Also. Spelling, punctuation, and capitalization. You fail it. FOR LIFE. Step your game up, homedude.
Kasrkin229 wrote:Any Space Marines , Non of them are Worthy of Regognition , All they do is Go in and Take the Credit for what the Guard do . Over all the Guard go in and hold the Line and once they are on the verge of victory then the Space Marines come in and lose the Battle For Them .
BlaxicanX wrote:Fulgrim is completely disqualified from being the most mock-worthy Primarch by virtue of the fact that he has the best K/D ratio of all the Primarchs.
- Literally punched out an Avatar after gripping said Avatar's flaming sword with his bare hands (the greatest act of "Male-ness" in the entire 40K mythos).
Sounds pretty un-manly.
really?
Really really.
Grabbing a guy's flaming sword then punching him in the face is dirty pool.
BlaxicanX wrote:Fulgrim is completely disqualified from being the most mock-worthy Primarch by virtue of the fact that he has the best K/D ratio of all the Primarchs.
- Literally punched out an Avatar after gripping said Avatar's flaming sword with his bare hands (the greatest act of "Male-ness" in the entire 40K mythos).
Sounds pretty un-manly.
really?
Really really.
Grabbing a guy's flaming sword then punching him in the face is dirty pool.
Kasrkin229 wrote:Any Space Marines , Non of them are Worthy of Regognition , All they do is Go in and Take the Credit for what the Guard do . Over all the Guard go in and hold the Line and once they are on the verge of victory then the Space Marines come in and lose the Battle For Them .
Wow... I guess we know your favorite faction. In all seriousness, though, that's just a load of gak. Maybe they're not the all-powerful warrior-angels that the Imperial propaganda would have you believe, but they sure as all hell are potent soldiers. Easily one of the most powerful assets mankind has access to.
Also. Spelling, punctuation, and capitalization. You fail it. FOR LIFE. Step your game up, homedude.
lol i know , They are Potental soldiers , but they are a bit overated in my Personal opionin but yeah i know i was going to piss off a bunch of people with that comment
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deathholydeath wrote:
Kasrkin229 wrote:Any Space Marines , Non of them are Worthy of Regognition , All they do is Go in and Take the Credit for what the Guard do . Over all the Guard go in and hold the Line and once they are on the verge of victory then the Space Marines come in and lose the Battle For Them .
Seriously? What?
<ehh i love making comments like that just to piss people off who love Space Marines , Yeah they are good soldiers but generally they are mostly gloryhogs >
Kasrkin229 wrote:Any Space Marines , Non of them are Worthy of Regognition , All they do is Go in and Take the Credit for what the Guard do . Over all the Guard go in and hold the Line and once they are on the verge of victory then the Space Marines come in and lose the Battle For Them .
Wow... I guess we know your favorite faction. In all seriousness, though, that's just a load of gak. Maybe they're not the all-powerful warrior-angels that the Imperial propaganda would have you believe, but they sure as all hell are potent soldiers. Easily one of the most powerful assets mankind has access to.
Also. Spelling, punctuation, and capitalization. You fail it. FOR LIFE. Step your game up, homedude.
lol i know , They are Potental soldiers , but they are a bit overated in my Personal opionin but yeah i know i was going to piss off a bunch of people with that comment
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deathholydeath wrote:
Kasrkin229 wrote:Any Space Marines , Non of them are Worthy of Regognition , All they do is Go in and Take the Credit for what the Guard do . Over all the Guard go in and hold the Line and once they are on the verge of victory then the Space Marines come in and lose the Battle For Them .
Seriously? What?
<ehh i love making comments like that just to piss people off who love Space Marines , Yeah they are good soldiers but generally they are mostly gloryhogs >
Potent, not potential. And yeah, they have to be. Because most of the time, the guard can't apply force in high enough concentrations to achieve vital objectives. The sheer distructive power of an artillery barrage in the form of a single ten-man squad. They get glory, mostly, because they earn it.
That said, one of the most MOCKABLE primarchs would probably be Russ. Say what you want about his GOOD points, but he's essentially one giant fratboy.
Kasrkin229 wrote: ehh i love making comments like that just to piss people off who love Space Marines , Yeah they are good soldiers but generally they are mostly gloryhogs
Hate to disappoint you, but no. I love the Guard as much as the next guy. My 2500 points of it would gladly argue with anyone who says they aren't any good. Perhaps they are underrated. But the Astartes have earned their reputation; to say they just dive in and "steal the glory" is a joke in of itself.
And dude, not every word that has emphasis in a sentence needs a capital letter. Just the first word of each sentence and names, ok?
English 101 folks.
On topic, I can go along with the whole "Russ is a heretic" thing. Running into the Warp to join the twisted legions after the Emperor has fallen... Clearly he thinks that the Imperium will fall without the Emperor, so has joined the "winning team". Now, if you're looking for glory hogs...
Mehh honestly i support the Chaos more then the Standard Space Marines , Chaos still put up a fight even though they don't have any logistical support. I know some imperial Players would scream Heresy for me saying this , Generally Space Marines are extremely Stuck up , the Only Space Marine Chapter that i have any respect for are the Salamanders , All Others tend to be more pushy toward them being the only ones who can get anything done . Overall the Guard are consistantly being forced to take on engagement zones where the Space Marines can't simpliy be everywhere at once . But more on topic the most Laughable Primarch has to be either Russ of the space wolves or the Primarch of the Black Templers , a Resularch i think .
Kasrkin229 wrote:Mehh honestly i support the Chaos more then the Standard Space Marines , Chaos still put up a fight even though they don't have any logistical support. I know some imperial Players would scream Heresy for me saying this , Generally Space Marines are extremely Stuck up , the Only Space Marine Chapter that i have any respect for are the Salamanders , All Others tend to be more pushy toward them being the only ones who can get anything done . Overall the Guard are consistantly being forced to take on engagement zones where the Space Marines can't simpliy be everywhere at once . But more on topic the most Laughable Primarch has to be either Russ of the space wolves or the Primarch of the Black Templers , a Resularch i think .
The Black Templars are a succesor chapter of the Imperial Fists, so their primarch would be Dorn.
Unless of course, you're talking about that Sigsimund guy.
Wait, so you don't respect any of the Space Marine chapters aside from the Salamanders, arguably the most glory hogging chapter (alongside the smurfs of course )
I swear, you will see some fluff eventually about a Guard regiment that sweeps in and steals the glory from Space Marines that have dropped about 100 guys on the planet and fought weeks to win a war, only for the Glory hogging IG to drop down and take the leader's head, merely to end this ridiculous notion that the Space Marines steal glory.
Kasrkin229 wrote:Mehh im American im allowed to be a hipocryte . But The Guard arn't ten foot tall genetically altered supersoldiers
So? Doesn't make them glory hogs. There isn't that much glory in it anyway; Most citizens don't care who saved them. Most will never see a Space Marine and to most they are merely a myth, a legend. The Grey Knights even go as far as to be invisible to the population, completely unknown. On the flipside, the IG are common as muck. But the SM do not steal glory; the IG ending of the Lorn 5 campaign (DoW Winter assault) shows us both how hard SM are as soldiers, and how mutual understanding between the forces of the IoM is commonly achieved.
Now, enough of this joke that the SM are gloryhunters.
Leman Russ. Space fratboy. Liked to get drunk, stuff his face, and punch people. When the Emp came around, immediately challanged him to all three, then lost at the only one that actually mattered. Spent another few thousand years getting drunk, eating, and punching people in the face, including one of his own brothers, and in general being obstinate and annoying to deal with. At the Council of Nikea and in the following Horus Heresy, he perpetrated massive hypocrisy, slaughtering his brother Magnus' legion for use of sorcery, while dismissing his own legion's use of psychic power with what essentially amounted to 'NOP PWR OF FENRIS LOLZ!1!!1'. Then, as he Heresy wound down, as he saw that his mindless combativeness and griping wasn't going to keep the majority of SM legions from following Gulliman's Codex, he ragequit like a coward into the warp, with 'searching' for the Emperor as an excuse.
Grabbing a guy's flaming sword then punching him in the face is dirty pool.
Sounds like something an Ultramarine would say.
You can't blame yourself for your Primarch's failings. There was nothing anyone could do to prevent Gurlyman from getting owned by Fulgrim.
Or getting owned by Alpha Legion when his arrogant ass was strutting about, convinced that Alpha Legion was headless and thus harmless after killing Alpharius (maybe) and getting almost all of the SM with him killed in the process. Ah, silly Guilliman, if only Loyalist Marines could see the truth. Though they all may aspire to be like his Ultramarines, Guilliman secretly aspired to be like Alpharius, or Corax, or Kurze, or the Reasonable Marines...
But yeah, I hear Russ is chilling in the eye of terror these days... sounds pretty... heretical. Not to mention if he was going to go renegade, he could at least not be late to the party about it.
I'd say you would be well entitled to mock magnus, his whole story was that he thought he would eventually be vindicated when he showed the Emperor how sorcery could forewarn him about Lupercal, then the emperor sends his pet to get him, Magnus is nearly killed then after his armies kill themselves with the rubricon he throws a hissy fit climbs his tower and threatens to burn the Imperium
liquidjoshi wrote:Wait, so you don't respect any of the Space Marine chapters aside from the Salamanders, arguably the most glory hogging chapter (alongside the smurfs of course )
.
Either my sarcasm detector is off, or this is one of the worst fluff arguments ever. The Salamanders THING is that they don't care about glory as long as the job gets done. Maybe as individuals they care, but as a chapter they are very good at putting pride to the side. They willingly take rearguard duties and hold supply lines in check while others rush forward securely to glory in front line battle. They are also quick to share victories and acknowledge those who participated, be they other Astartes or Guard. This, their dedication to humanity, self-reliance, and their love for sweet burny fire are the defining characteristics for the Sallies chapter as a whole.
I have a feeling, though, that if we get more from Vulkan in the HH he will be Kymed to critical mockability.
Russ because he seems like a hypocrite and a little slow-witted. Its cool that he wants to fight and get drunk but things should not have gone down with the Thousand Sons like they did.
Lorgar because he seems like stereotypical teen. Sure, he is well hench and kinda golden but that does not make up for the fact he is overly emotional and fudged his Dad over.
liquidjoshi wrote:Wait, so you don't respect any of the Space Marine chapters aside from the Salamanders, arguably the most glory hogging chapter (alongside the smurfs of course )
.
Either my sarcasm detector is off, or this is one of the worst fluff arguments ever. The Salamanders THING is that they don't care about glory as long as the job gets done. Maybe as individuals they care, but as a chapter they are very good at putting pride to the side. They willingly take rearguard duties and hold supply lines in check while others rush forward securely to glory in front line battle. They are also quick to share victories and acknowledge those who participated, be they other Astartes or Guard. This, their dedication to humanity, self-reliance, and their love for sweet burny fire are the defining characteristics for the Sallies chapter as a whole.
I have a feeling, though, that if we get more from Vulkan in the HH he will be Kymed to critical mockability.
Never said they weren't noble. But I'm fairly sure they take as much glory as any other given chapter, and are pretty much poster boys second only to the Smurfs. Besides, we've moved on from this conversation, deal with it.
So, once again, Russ, Eye of terror, massive frat boy, etc, etc.
The more I think about how the SW were done, the more it disappoints me. Supposedly, they were supposed to be space vikings, but there's little to know warrior-culture, aside from that inherent to all space marines. The whole animal-worship thing was not included in Norse mythology, IIRC, and in the cultures it DID exist in (Native Americans come to mind), it was by no way limited to wolves. I suppose it seemed cool at the time it was made, but... It's just tacky, now. Big ol' space frats who are overly obsessed with wolves.
But they could have done it really, really well. There was a lot of potential there. But who knows? Maybe 6th edition will bring about a SW reboot?
Perhaps. Perhaps they'll straighten up, cut the extra 400 or so marines they have chillin' around and, you know, start playing by the rules. Or they can go completely the other way and go full Chaos. I really don't care which.
Lorgar becomes an all-mighty BADASS in Aurelian. Srsly, that book needed to be at least a hundred times longer.
For mock-worth Primarch? Leman Russ, obviously. He's ignorant(thinks Fenris produces the Rune Priests' powers and not the Warp, derp), smelly(wolf people always are), oh, and speaking of wolf people...
What part of Aurelian does he become a badass? Seriously, I must have missed it, lol. Badassery is as much mental and psychological as it is physical. Lorgrar might become stronger via Chaos, but he remains a whining, petulant child with Daddy issues and consuming jealousy of his more accomplished brothers.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:What part of Aurelian does he become a badass? Seriously, I must have missed it, lol. Badassery is as much mental and psychological as it is physical. Lorgrar might become stronger via Chaos, but he remains a whining, petulant child with Daddy issues and consuming jealousy of his more accomplished brothers.
The part where he nearly killed Fulgrim and then told Horus to back off, which Horus tried not to obey but couldn't help it. Does that not count as badass? He's accepted that he is the high priest of Chaos Undivided now, and I didn't hear a single whiney thing from him once he made than transition.
I'm starting to think people are really trolling the way they keep saying Russ and the SW by extension are hypocrites because "they don't trust psychers blah blah blah."
Facts
Russ doesn't like Magnus
The Space Wolves have rune priests instead of librarians
Rune Priests are basically fenrisian shamans who date all the way back to before Magnus even began his intense studies into his psycher abilities
Magnus is the forefather of all warp manipulating librarians because the training they receive is born out of his research.
Rune Priests are not trained like this
Why do Space Wolves think their different again? Oh it must be because their stupid and ignorant.
Russ Mandarin wrote:I'm starting to think people are really trolling the way they keep saying Russ and the SW by extension are hypocrites because "they don't trust psychers blah blah blah."
Facts
Russ doesn't like Magnus
The Space Wolves have rune priests instead of librarians
Rune Priests are basically fenrisian shamans who date all the way back to before Magnus even began his intense studies into his psycher abilities
Magnus is the forefather of all warp manipulating librarians because the training they receive is born out of his research.
Rune Priests are not trained like this
Why do Space Wolves think their different again? Oh it must be because their stupid and ignorant.
Rune Priests are psykers, just like Librarians. Russ, being an idiot, thinks they aren't.
Russ Mandarin wrote:I'm starting to think people are really trolling the way they keep saying Russ and the SW by extension are hypocrites because "they don't trust psychers blah blah blah."
Facts
Russ doesn't like Magnus
The Space Wolves have rune priests instead of librarians
Rune Priests are basically fenrisian shamans who date all the way back to before Magnus even began his intense studies into his psycher abilities
Magnus is the forefather of all warp manipulating librarians because the training they receive is born out of his research.
Rune Priests are not trained like this
Why do Space Wolves think their different again? Oh it must be because their stupid and ignorant.
Rune Priests are psykers, just like Librarians. Russ, being an idiot, thinks they aren't.
and yet they aren't in any way trained like traditional psychers, Don't touch the warp at all, and have no problem fighting beside the sisters of silence.
There's a reason the Council of Nikea did not apply to Rune Priests and that's because they have no connection to Magnus' warp tinged brand of librarians
Russ Mandarin wrote:I'm starting to think people are really trolling the way they keep saying Russ and the SW by extension are hypocrites because "they don't trust psychers blah blah blah."
Facts
Russ doesn't like Magnus
The Space Wolves have rune priests instead of librarians
Rune Priests are basically fenrisian shamans who date all the way back to before Magnus even began his intense studies into his psycher abilities
Magnus is the forefather of all warp manipulating librarians because the training they receive is born out of his research.
Rune Priests are not trained like this
Why do Space Wolves think their different again? Oh it must be because their stupid and ignorant.
Rune Priests are psykers, just like Librarians. Russ, being an idiot, thinks they aren't.
and yet they aren't in any way trained like traditional psychers, Don't touch the warp at all, and have no problem fighting beside the sisters of silence.
There's a reason the Council of Nikea did not apply to Rune Priests and that's because they have no connection to Magnus' warp tinged brand of librarians
You may be playing a different game than Warhammer 40k.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:What part of Aurelian does he become a badass? Seriously, I must have missed it, lol. Badassery is as much mental and psychological as it is physical. Lorgrar might become stronger via Chaos, but he remains a whining, petulant child with Daddy issues and consuming jealousy of his more accomplished brothers.
The part where he nearly killed Fulgrim and then told Horus to back off, which Horus tried not to obey but couldn't help it. Does that not count as badass? He's accepted that he is the high priest of Chaos Undivided now, and I didn't hear a single whiney thing from him once he made than transition.
The very act of transitioning was his ultimate act of whining and bitchery though. He fell to Chaos because he was weak, because he was angry, because he didn't feel validated by the Emperor. He was a woman, lol. He may have felt his ego and confidence inflated by his new powers, but that's just kinda pathetic. Reminds me of Friday where Ice Cube's dad tells him to be a man instead of taking his confidence from carrying a gun. That scene in KNF where he gloats in front of Guilliman reeks of some angry kid with a gun, gloating in the face of some team captain or other popular kid he's fantasized about killing just because that kid had everything he had ever wanted including being liked and respected.
Lorgar was nothing without Chaos, and he was a pompous fool with it. Doomed his entire Legion and the Imperium because he was a weakling emo kid. He needed a black pompadour haircut and a trenchcoat, not golden skin, heh.
Why do Space Wolves think their different again? Oh it must be because their stupid and ignorant.
They are. I cheered the Thousand Sons on throughout the Battle of the Fang. Shame Magnus didn't destroy the main gene-seed repository, just the labs. Wouldn't shed a tear if the Space Wolves became extinct. Actually, I might even throw a celebration - with members of the Inquisition and the Dark Angels as guests of honor.
and yet they aren't in any way trained like traditional psychers, Don't touch the warp at all, and have no problem fighting beside the sisters of silence.
Still psykers. All psychic abilities are connected to the Warp. Especially the Emperor - since He's the powerful psyker around. Or, are you saying that since the Emperor's a psyker, He shouldn't use His powers because He's not a Rune Priest and doesn't use snow-flake magic? It depends on how you use your power - the Emperor was actually fine with Librarians and psykers, but He had no choice but to act at Nikaea because the evidence was against Magnus and sorcery was something the Emperor simply couldn't approve of.
There's a reason the Council of Nikea did not apply to Rune Priests and that's because they have no connection to Magnus' warp tinged brand of librarians
And yet, by the end of the Heresy Librarians had been re-sanctioned, considering that the Emperor directed the Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians to counter the sorceries of traitors.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:What part of Aurelian does he become a badass? Seriously, I must have missed it, lol. Badassery is as much mental and psychological as it is physical. Lorgrar might become stronger via Chaos, but he remains a whining, petulant child with Daddy issues and consuming jealousy of his more accomplished brothers.
The part where he nearly killed Fulgrim and then told Horus to back off, which Horus tried not to obey but couldn't help it. Does that not count as badass? He's accepted that he is the high priest of Chaos Undivided now, and I didn't hear a single whiney thing from him once he made than transition.
The very act of transitioning was his ultimate act of whining and bitchery though. He fell to Chaos because he was weak, because he was angry, because he didn't feel validated by the Emperor. He was a woman, lol. He may have felt his ego and confidence inflated by his new powers, but that's just kinda pathetic. Reminds me of Friday where Ice Cube's dad tells him to be a man instead of taking his confidence from carrying a gun. That scene in KNF where he gloats in front of Guilliman reeks of some angry kid with a gun, gloating in the face of some team captain or other popular kid he's fantasized about killing just because that kid had everything he had ever wanted including being liked and respected.
Lorgar was nothing without Chaos, and he was a pompous fool with it. Doomed his entire Legion and the Imperium because he was a weakling emo kid. He needed a black pompadour haircut and a trenchcoat, not golden skin, heh.
Uh huh. "The First Heretic" made it very clear that Lorgar chose Chaos because he would rather have an ugly truth than a beautiful lie. It's true he is overemotional, that's his flaw. And from reading what the emprah did to him in front of the Ultramarines, I'd say the emperor damn well deserved a righteous kick in the teeth.
Lol, you can let go of some kind of faction bias, lol. Lorgar turned to Chaos because he needed validation like a woman. He might as well have been a thirty year old single woman with a dog. He worshiped the Emperor, and when the Emperor refused his idolatry, he ran off looking for someone else to tell him they loved him.
He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers. Lorgar was an emotional and mental weakling, and it is little wonder he was the first of the primarchs to fall.
Curze was a bad ass. Horus was a bad ass. Heck, even Vulkan was a bad ass compared to Lorgar. Lorgar was the mascot for losers who ever fantasized about getting back at the people he was jealous of. But he even failed at that, because the Ultramarines obliterated half his legion at Calth (where they had been taken completely by surprise) and then he lost at Terra and spent the next ten thousand years in a tower writing fan fiction.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lol, you can let go of some kind of faction bias, lol. Lorgar turned to Chaos because he needed validation like a woman. He might as well have been a thirty year old single woman with a dog. He worshiped the Emperor, and when the Emperor refused his idolatry, he ran off looking for someone else to tell him they loved him.
Trust me, if a woman is closing in on thirtyand is single and owns a dog, it's because the dog will lick her face and love her unconditionally. Lorgar was looking for someone to love him. His dog just turned out to be Chaos.
He was arrogant as russ, he created a system of interstellar travel that required HIM at its center.
He was judgmental and very much played favorites with his sons, to DISASTROUS ends.
He created a culture of idol worship around himself, and denied his own divinity. it should come as short surprise that people started to turn to occult practices. If someone as powerful as the emperor was not a god, who is? must be the dark powers as they are the only accessible power even close to his level.
He took every part of himself and shaped it into a son, half of those sons became evil, the only true evil 40k knows. orks just want to fight, nids just want to eat, but chaos is something else. the other half are hardly good either, their are many arguments against russ, and half the dark angles were traitors.
King Pariah wrote:Could just as easily be a guy. No reason to call out a gender for a false, stereotypical generalization.
Could easily just not care. It was an example, nothing more.
I'm with Thrawn. The Emperor made some really, really, stupid decisions, and the galaxy is still paying for them to this day.
a pretty bad example, "needed validation like a woman"? Sounds chauvinistic.
Anyway, I would agree the Emperor is the most mock worthy... except he's not a Primarch. So, for me, that narrows it down to Guilliman, Dorn, Lorgar, and Russ (that's all that come to mind immediately for me) contesting the most mock-worthy Primarch title.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Lol, you can let go of some kind of faction bias, lol. Lorgar turned to Chaos because he needed validation like a woman. He might as well have been a thirty year old single woman with a dog. He worshiped the Emperor, and when the Emperor refused his idolatry, he ran off looking for someone else to tell him they loved him.
He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers. Lorgar was an emotional and mental weakling, and it is little wonder he was the first of the primarchs to fall.
Curze was a bad ass. Horus was a bad ass. Heck, even Vulkan was a bad ass compared to Lorgar. Lorgar was the mascot for losers who ever fantasized about getting back at the people he was jealous of. But he even failed at that, because the Ultramarines obliterated half his legion at Calth (where they had been taken completely by surprise) and then he lost at Terra and spent the next ten thousand years in a tower writing fan fiction.
I think we should let the woman comment go-as silly as it is-because the next thing you know we're getting into gender politics and we all know how fun it is to talk about women's issues on the internet.
I still stand by Khan being totally lame, or maybe it's more accurate to say his Legion is lame. Bikes and a Mongol fetish don't make for a cool army.
Also I think I feel the need to apologize to any White Scars players.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it's too easy for people sitting comfortably at their computers to say "well if my own father humilated me in front of my Legion and brothers I'd simply do X,Y, and Z!"
People need to realize that the dude had it rough, of course dedicating yourself to insanity, death, and chaos is a bit extreme but to call him whiny is being dismissive I think.
All the Primarchs "had it rough". I really don't think that's justification for any of his actions.
Furthermore, Lorgar's own people basically think he's an overly emotional cry-baby. Kor Phaeron and Erebus were openly despising him for his irrationality during the Drop-Site massacre, Corax called him weak, Curze called him weak, Guilliman called him weak. Even Lorgar himself stated that he's weak. He literally stated that his "primarch talent" was basically landscaping, as opposed to being a general or a warrior.
I think it's pretty obvious that even the BL writers wanted to portray that he was a whiny kid. Some of that whininess may be justified (I think a lot of people would agree that the Emperor is a complete ass and sucks at reading people). But that doesn't change what he is.
Fair enough, I think I just really like his Legion since they seem the most devoted to Chaos and treat it as an actual religion. Word Bearers are still cool and maybe that's why I feel like I should defend Lorgar.
They are. I cheered the Thousand Sons on throughout the Battle of the Fang. Shame Magnus didn't destroy the main gene-seed repository, just the labs. Wouldn't shed a tear if the Space Wolves became extinct. Actually, I might even throw a celebration - with members of the Inquisition and the Dark Angels as guests of honor.
I'll drink to that!
So, Russ for most mock worthy primarch 2012? You know it...
They are. I cheered the Thousand Sons on throughout the Battle of the Fang. Shame Magnus didn't destroy the main gene-seed repository, just the labs. Wouldn't shed a tear if the Space Wolves became extinct. Actually, I might even throw a celebration - with members of the Inquisition and the Dark Angels as guests of honor.
I'll drink to that!
So, Russ for most mock worthy primarch 2012? You know it...
So, who else shall we invite, apart from the Inquisition and the Dark Angels? The Ecclesiarchy are too stuffy to enjoy a party, although if we get the Sororitas drunk they should be more fun than normal. Although all this would automatically preclude Magnus and the Thousand Sons themselves. Oh well, I suppose we can't have everything after all...
liquidjoshi wrote:What about venue? I think Fenris would be a fitting place to celebrate the demise of the wolf born...
Perhaps Ahriman or Mr. Blackheart would be interested, just keep them in a seperate room to the loyalists.
Hmmm...a very good choice. EXALTED! As souvenirs, we will distribute 'recovered' Space Wolf relics and wulfen wall trophies. Well, this will guarantee that the Fourth Fellowship (*cough*Blood Ravens*rough*) will be present among the loyalists, and Magnus and his legion among the traitors. The central hall should be large enough, though we're going to have to be careful to keep the celebrants and their fleets from each other's throats. But then again, everyone's common dislike of the Wolves ought to keep things cordial.
I don't like to pick sides, but if there was one primarch who I had to say failed at his job, it's Lorgar. He got so focused and invested in his father's godhood he couldn't live any other way. The way he acted against Malcador and Guilliman when he was reprimanded just shows how badly he needed to be punished. He's envious, conceited and weak. But I wouldn't have him any other way because he makes a better character and foil this way.
Interestingly, in the fairly recent WD where the Tervigon and all the Space Wolf stuff was released, if you go to the Space Wolves Finecast page, Njal Stormcaller and the Rune Priest are referred to by GW as psykers. I guess that's the final nail in the coffin of any credibility ol' Lemon Grass may have had.
Also, for the party, I'd invite the entire civillian populace of Prospero along, seeing as the Space Woves decided to go on a great big rape-kill-loot-fest. Doubly so considering that the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons bravely fought side by side in the Mountain that Eats Men...only for the Space Wolves to betray the Thousand Sons at Nikea.
Squigsquasher wrote:Interestingly, in the fairly recent WD where the Tervigon and all the Space Wolf stuff was released, if you go to the Space Wolves Finecast page, Njal Stormcaller and the Rune Priest are referred to by GW as psykers. I guess that's the final nail in the coffin of any credibility ol' Lemon Grass may have had.
Also, for the party, I'd invite the entire civillian populace of Prospero along, seeing as the Space Woves decided to go on a great big rape-kill-loot-fest. Doubly so considering that the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons bravely fought side by side in the Mountain that Eats Men...only for the Space Wolves to betray the Thousand Sons at Nikea.
Not to mention VANDALISM. In Rebirth Fourth Fellowship Thousand Sons investigating the ruins of the City of Light discover 'obscene' writings on the walls. So now we have ghosts in the party...hmmm, this should be fun.
Then of course there's that whole incident involving Space Wolves that openly turned to Chaos... the others are just closet heretics. Skyrar's Dark Wolves or something.
As for Russ himself, well... I'm thinking he's either a Chaos Lord somewhere or been Spawn'd.
Before anyone complains about the closet heretics comment, from the GK codex: "Logan Grimnar [...] did everything he could to inhibit the Inquisition's agents." Sounds pretty heretical to me. By doing this, they also caused the deaths of thousands more innocent people than would have been caused if they had left the Inquisition to it's work.
King Pariah wrote:Could just as easily be a guy. No reason to call out a gender for a false, stereotypical generalization.
Hey now, nothing about that statement was false.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Surtur wrote:I don't like to pick sides, but if there was one primarch who I had to say failed at his job, it's Lorgar. He got so focused and invested in his father's godhood he couldn't live any other way. The way he acted against Malcador and Guilliman when he was reprimanded just shows how badly he needed to be punished. He's envious, conceited and weak. But I wouldn't have him any other way because he makes a better character and foil this way.
For sure. A-D-B did a great job making Lorgar a believable, three dimensional character. Lorgar is definitely still a punk though, lol. Guilliman pegged him perfectly in KNF, and if you really want bad ass, it's the way Guilliman just got back up after being clubbed and brushed off Lorgar's temper tantrum as being too beneath him to respond to.
After all, even Tzeentch knew that Guilliman would kill Lorgar, because Lorgar was mentally weak. That's why he lied to him to keep him from going to Calth personally.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: That's why he lied to him to keep him from going to Calth personally.
Who says he was lied to? Also, that wasn't Tzeentch, that was Kairos Fateweaver(Two headed bird dude.) Kairos said for that one moment he could speak nothing but the truth to Lorgar.
Also, I very much doubt you're going to see Lorgar whine at all in the next book he's in with Angron. Betrayer, I believe it's called.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Come on man. Lorgar sucked at math. You should be better.
The first thing he says to Lorgar is that for every truth, he has to tell one lie. He then tells him that in this case, he only will tell the truth.
One truth: For every truth, tell one lie.
One lie: This time I'm only telling the truth.
Lorgar was a sucker.
You have no proof to back that up. Kairos has two heads, one that speaks the truth, one that speaks lies, but they were allowed to both speak the truth in this instance. That's what the book says, and nowhere does it say anything different.
There's nl happy ending for you in this argument lol. Best to abandon your ship before it sinks because the only place it goes is "the proof is there, sorry you're too dumb to see it". Bestto go back and reread.
Guilliman and Lorgar have far more in common than either would ever admit and niether are unstopable badass's, I don't think either would like to be, rather they are visionaries for two different sides, obviously the Emperor liked Guilimans vision for the Imperium better than Lorgars which in my mind is the real reasons for the Word Bearers hatred for the UltraMarines. If you unstopable badass the candidates are Agron, Curze, Russ, or Corax.
I think Corax was the greatest of the Primarchs, because not only was he a tactical mastermind who understood that the best way to win is to attack the enemy where he is weak rather than throwing hordes of berzerkers and tanks at well fortified positions but he because he did the impossible, he rebuilt a destroyed Legion in the middle of the Horus Heresy, Corax the least mock worthy Primarch.
Corax? The guy who tried to make Instant Space Marines and then abandoned the Imperium jetting off headlong into the Eye of Terror quoting Edgar Allen Poe?
Can't possibly see what people would clown on him for.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Corax? The guy who tried to make Instant Space Marines and then abandoned the Imperium jetting off headlong into the Eye of Terror quoting Edgar Allen Poe?
Can't possibly see what people would clown on him for.
Hey, at least he took sole responsibility for his mistake(s). Killing one's own children, I think that'd be enough to drive many people, even a primarch, over the brink.
liquidjoshi wrote:Then of course there's that whole incident involving Space Wolves that openly turned to Chaos... the others are just closet heretics. Skyrar's Dark Wolves or something.
As for Russ himself, well... I'm thinking he's either a Chaos Lord somewhere or been Spawn'd.
Before anyone complains about the closet heretics comment, from the GK codex: "Logan Grimnar [...] did everything he could to inhibit the Inquisition's agents." Sounds pretty heretical to me. By doing this, they also caused the deaths of thousands more innocent people than would have been caused if they had left the Inquisition to it's work.
The Chaos Space Wolf Lord: Vulfbad, the bro of Harald Deathwolf. (though vulfbad is dead now)
Also, no one really likes the inquisition (except some of the other SM, like all those folks who volunteer for Deathwatch)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Can anyone lend me a helpful book about nicer/logical inquisitors for reading?
ZSO SAHALL wrote:Guilliman and Lorgar have far more in common than either would ever admit and niether are unstopable badass's, I don't think either would like to be, rather they are visionaries for two different sides, obviously the Emperor liked Guilimans vision for the Imperium better than Lorgars which in my mind is the real reasons for the Word Bearers hatred for the UltraMarines. If you unstopable badass the candidates are Agron, Curze, Russ, or Corax.
I think Corax was the greatest of the Primarchs, because not only was he a tactical mastermind who understood that the best way to win is to attack the enemy where he is weak rather than throwing hordes of berzerkers and tanks at well fortified positions but he because he did the impossible, he rebuilt a destroyed Legion in the middle of the Horus Heresy, Corax the least mock worthy Primarch.
Lexicanum wrote: Though grievously wounded he escaped the slaughter with a handful of loyal Space Marines, Corax was sent back to his legion's home world to rebuild his forces as soon as possible. The Primarch was desperate as the Imperium was collapsing, his Emperor needed warriors that Corax could not provide. Searching for a solution among the Librarium of the Ravenspire, Corax found the ancient books of genetic research providing the techniques used to create the first enhanced warriors of the Emperor, those techniques Corax duplicated to create Spaces Marines at a frightening rate. Despite the warnings he found amongst the old books, he started rebuilding his Legion. As the Legion started fighting alone, isolated from the other Imperial Forces, nothing is known for sure of the initial results, but an element of response came with the Space Wolves Saga of the Weregeld, which tells of ferocious monsters lead to combat by their Raven Guard Battle Brothers[Needs Citation]. During this period Corax led his warriors as he had always done, with small squads striking like lightning on the enemy weak spots. When ultimately he managed to rebuild his Legion, the Horus Heresy had ended and Roboute Guilliman's Codex edicts that the Legion had to be split in smaller Chapters. Knowing that Guilliman's vision was true, Corax split his forces but remained unable to forget the growling monsters that he had personally created. After pondering for hours as to what should be done he decided to administer the Emperor's peace, praying for their souls and his. Then wracked with guilt he locked himself in his chamber in the Ravenspire begging for the Emperor's mercy[Needs Citation]. Nobody knows if he received the absolution he required but a year to the day after he had locked himself in, he left the tower and Deliverance on a course toward the Eye of Terror, never to be seen again. His last recorded words were "never more."
The heresy had ended by the time he rebuilt. And his initial creations were abominations that he had to destroy. Then he flew away. He is definitely badass, but I wouldn't give him the most awesomest primarch award.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Come on man. Lorgar sucked at math. You should be better.
The first thing he says to Lorgar is that for every truth, he has to tell one lie. He then tells him that in this case, he only will tell the truth.
One truth: For every truth, tell one lie.
One lie: This time I'm only telling the truth.
Lorgar was a sucker.
Which is a clever interpretation, of course, but we know BL is not that subtle. Plus, that's not what really happened, considering they had a lengthy conversation. And the fact that with Kairos, it's always one head speaking the truth and one speaking lies, leaving it up to you to figure out which is which. In this case, however, both heads spoke with one voice.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers.
Wait, WHAT??? Utter reading comprehension FAIL. It's the Emperor who's the liar here. Basically the Emperor is waging a galaxy-wide war of conquest to forcibly convert the entire human race to a belief system that the Emperor himself knows is a lie from the very beginning. How do you think Lorgar's going react when he figures out that the Emperor chastised and humiliated him for not believing something that Emperor himself knew wasn't true? I'd kind of expect him to be somewhat disillusioned, wouldn't you?
Chaos doesn't corrupt people by lying, it corrupts them by telling them the truth. It's just that in 40k (or 30k) the truth is so horrible that to know it is to be damned. And that's the grimdark.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers.
Wait, WHAT??? Utter reading comprehension FAIL. It's the Emperor who's the liar here. Basically the Emperor is waging a galaxy-wide war of conquest to forcibly convert the entire human race to a belief system that the Emperor himself knows is a lie from the very beginning. How do you think Lorgar's going react when he figures out that the Emperor chastised and humiliated him for not believing something that Emperor himself knew wasn't true? I'd kind of expect him to be somewhat disillusioned, wouldn't you?
Chaos doesn't corrupt people by lying, it corrupts them by telling them the truth. It's just that in 40k (or 30k) the truth is so horrible that to know it is to be damned. And that's the grimdark.
The Emperor was trying to get rid of religion, and got mad when everybody was making him out to be a god, which he wasn't. But Lorgar was so desperate to worship something he turned to chaos.
You could say that the Truth involved in Chaos is that Chaos indeed exists. That they are Gods and that you should worship them is an obvious lie, tho.
Lorgar is, as currently written, amongst the most unbelievably boring and hateful characters of the setting. Crap I even have less problems with Angron...
I would not care if the last novel of the Word Bearers serie started with Russ and Guilliman storming the WB's planet, both killing all Traitors inside the first paragraph, and leave the 200 following pages to describe Russ's wolves urinating on the Heretic's corpses and Guilliman correcting all the typos Lorgar made writing his little novella, all the while commenting on how poor was his brother's synthax.
I would not care at all. Actually, that would make me litteraly love Russ.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers.
Wait, WHAT??? Utter reading comprehension FAIL. It's the Emperor who's the liar here. Basically the Emperor is waging a galaxy-wide war of conquest to forcibly convert the entire human race to a belief system that the Emperor himself knows is a lie from the very beginning. How do you think Lorgar's going react when he figures out that the Emperor chastised and humiliated him for not believing something that Emperor himself knew wasn't true? I'd kind of expect him to be somewhat disillusioned, wouldn't you?
Chaos doesn't corrupt people by lying, it corrupts them by telling them the truth. It's just that in 40k (or 30k) the truth is so horrible that to know it is to be damned. And that's the grimdark.
Look at it this way: the gods and daemons exist because people believe in them right? So, the reverse is also true. If people stop believing in them, they cease to exist. If people believe the Imperial Truth is true, then it becomes true as well.
Tadashi wrote:Look at it this way: the gods and daemons exist because people believe in them right? So, the reverse is also true. If people stop believing in them, they cease to exist. If people believe the Imperial Truth is true, then it becomes true as well.
Why do people keep perpetuating the falsehood that if no one believes in the Chaos Gods, they cease to exit? Granted, active belief and worship allow them to exert more of an influence, but they someone managed to come into existance without anyone in particular worshipping them. After the Long Night, the Psy Wars, etc., and by the time of the Great Crusade, only the most isolated and remote human settlements across the galaxy actively worshiped the ruinous powers (like that bureaucrat planet cleansed by the Dark Angels, or the savages on Cadia discovered by the Word Bearers), yet their strength was seemingly at an all-time high considering how often they interacted with the material realm. And anyway, unless the Emperor planned on killing himself and every powerful psyker once the conquest was complete, there would always be at least someone who was aware of the true nature of things.
Unfortunately, the skepticism and rationality promoted by the Imperial Truth offers no real power. The Imperial Creed, however, truly demonstrates the power of belief in the 40K universe (see saints).
Even Lorgar was initially horrified and repulsed by the truth he had discovered, but realized that all the things we find repugnant about Chaos become irrelevant once we achieve true enlightement and transcend our mortal shell and its limited scope of understanding. Chaos offers slavery, with a chance for apotheosis. The Imperial Truth only offers slavery.
Tadashi wrote:Look at it this way: the gods and daemons exist because people believe in them right? So, the reverse is also true. If people stop believing in them, they cease to exist. If people believe the Imperial Truth is true, then it becomes true as well.
Why do people keep perpetuating the falsehood that if no one believes in the Chaos Gods, they cease to exit? Granted, active belief and worship allow them to exert more of an influence, but they someone managed to come into existance without anyone in particular worshipping them. After the Long Night, the Psy Wars, etc., and by the time of the Great Crusade, only the most isolated and remote human settlements across the galaxy actively worshiped the ruinous powers (like that bureaucrat planet cleansed by the Dark Angels, or the savages on Cadia discovered by the Word Bearers), yet their strength was seemingly at an all-time high considering how often they interacted with the material realm. And anyway, unless the Emperor planned on killing himself and every powerful psyker once the conquest was complete, there would always be at least someone who was aware of the true nature of things.
Unfortunately, the skepticism and rationality promoted by the Imperial Truth offers no real power. The Imperial Creed, however, truly demonstrates the power of belief in the 40K universe (see saints).
Yeah, that's pretty much how it ended up. Sorry if I put in a wrong way, but I just pointed out the Emperor's POV at the time.
The old man's big miscalculation: Mankind needs to worship something greater than itself. He knew that much by the time the Brides of the Emperor were brought before Him by the Custodes during the Age of Apostasy.
Even Lorgar was initially horrified and repulsed by the truth he had discovered, but realized that all the things we find repugnant about Chaos become irrelevant once we achieve true enlightement and transcend our mortal shell and its limited scope of understanding. Chaos offers slavery, with a chance for apotheosis. The Imperial Truth only offers slavery.
You do realize in real life something similar exists. Something, if it actually became reality, would be opposed by religions across the globe because it's 'dehumanizing'. Something called transhumanism. It takes a variety of forms: genetic enhancement, cybernetics, consciousness being uploaded into a computer, or even technological singularity. I know it's kinda strange coming from an Imperial fan, but given the choice in real life, I'd accept the technological singularity - a level of life surpassing both organic and synthetic, the strengths of both but the weaknesses of neither, 'ascension' to a higher level of evolution.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:Guilliman and Lorgar have far more in common than either would ever admit and niether are unstopable badass's, I don't think either would like to be, rather they are visionaries for two different sides, obviously the Emperor liked Guilimans vision for the Imperium better than Lorgars which in my mind is the real reasons for the Word Bearers hatred for the UltraMarines. If you unstopable badass the candidates are Agron, Curze, Russ, or Corax.
I find Guilliman and Lorgar in almost perfect antithesis. Guilliman is rational, Lorgar is impulsive. Guilliman deals in fact, Lorgar deals in mysticism. Guilliman governs, Lorgar worships.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:For sure. A-D-B did a great job making Lorgar a believable, three dimensional character. Lorgar is definitely still a punk though, lol. Guilliman pegged him perfectly in KNF, and if you really want bad ass, it's the way Guilliman just got back up after being clubbed and brushed off Lorgar's temper tantrum as being too beneath him to respond to.
After all, even Tzeentch knew that Guilliman would kill Lorgar, because Lorgar was mentally weak. That's why he lied to him to keep him from going to Calth personally.
Oh there is no doubt about it. That whole scene sums up Lorgar itself. The way he treats his peers and Malcador is petulant. How it takes daddy to come and spank him is perfect. The way Guilliman handles Lorgar speaks volumes.
And it is quite possible Tzeentch knew there was no outcome that would truly favor Lorgar and crush the Ultramarines completely due to Lorgar's brashness and hot head.
Makes Fulgrim's huge ego even bigger by letting his legion wear the eagles.
Publicly shames Lorgar in front of another legion rather than just pulling him aside for a little chat.
Rather than go to Istvaan himself allows legions to walk into an obvious trap then says he knew all about it afterwards.
Council of Nikea, wtf? Just because Mortarion was whining about not liking psykers?
Instead of just telling Magnus he's working on the webway and to leave him alone for a while, makes it into a big secret which encourages Magnus to do that teleport thing, then as punishment DESTROYS AN ENTIRE LOYALIST LEGION and puts another too far away to be useful during a galaxy wide civil war.
Uses Kurze to destroy worlds then tells him off, but lets Russ get away with it.
Lets Corax leave Terra with the most powerful machine in the universe to return to a poorly defended homeworld and despite being the most powerful psyker EVA can't tell that the Raven Guard have been infiltrated.
Lies to everyone about the existence of chaos so they're completely unprepared.
Gets pwned by Horus and becomes a glorified lighthouse.
TBH the whole flshing out of the Horus Heresy as a 'realistic' storyline has been a big fail despite some individually strong novels and makes all of the primarchs look like spoilt children who went over to chaos on a whim [except Kurze who is just badass].
Veteran Sergeant wrote:He didn't find any truth with Chaos. They lied to him from the start and he fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. Tricked him into turning against the Emperor and tricked him into helping Horus turn his other brothers.
Wait, WHAT??? Utter reading comprehension FAIL. It's the Emperor who's the liar here. Basically the Emperor is waging a galaxy-wide war of conquest to forcibly convert the entire human race to a belief system that the Emperor himself knows is a lie from the very beginning. How do you think Lorgar's going react when he figures out that the Emperor chastised and humiliated him for not believing something that Emperor himself knew wasn't true? I'd kind of expect him to be somewhat disillusioned, wouldn't you?
Chaos doesn't corrupt people by lying, it corrupts them by telling them the truth. It's just that in 40k (or 30k) the truth is so horrible that to know it is to be damned. And that's the grimdark.
The good news is, I was busy this weekend so your ramblings got to sit unattended for a few days.
The bad news is, I don't think anyone is every going to accuse you of having a graduate degree in comparative literature, lol.
You are partially correct (something about broken clocks comes to mind). The Emperor's vision is based on lies. This is very obvious and deliberate, as the Imperium's Great Crusade is very certainly based on the kinds of closed minded philosophies that drove Roman expansionism, European Colonialism, American Manifest Destiny, etc. An " our way or the highway" if you will.
The problem you run into (at full speed, face first), is that you assume everything is polarized. If one side is lying, the other side must be telling the truth. I'm going to put it into pictures for you:
Take a second and figure out what those things have in common.
At any rate, no, it's not the case. In this situation, much like in real life, everyone is lying. The Emperor lies. But that doesn't meant Chaos is telling the truth. They're the biggest liars of them all. And they straight up lied to Lorgar. Manipulations of the truth are lies. You do realize that right? Right? However, your failure here isn't just an inability to analyze content, but to also recognize context. Some of the things they told Lorgar were true. But that doesn't mean that all of the things they said were true. The Emperor certainly told the truth in many things too, lol.
Regardless, Lorgar was a chump. He was the first pawn in Chaos's game. But he was never more than that. The Ruinous Powers knew that Lorgar was the weakest of the primarchs (physically, mentally, and emotionally) and the easiest to convert. And once they had done that, they could use him to help pollute some of his brothers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Omegus wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Come on man. Lorgar sucked at math. You should be better.
The first thing he says to Lorgar is that for every truth, he has to tell one lie. He then tells him that in this case, he only will tell the truth.
One truth: For every truth, tell one lie.
One lie: This time I'm only telling the truth.
Lorgar was a sucker.
Which is a clever interpretation, of course, but we know BL is not that subtle. Plus, that's not what really happened, considering they had a lengthy conversation. And the fact that with Kairos, it's always one head speaking the truth and one speaking lies, leaving it up to you to figure out which is which. In this case, however, both heads spoke with one voice.
Some Black Library authors maybe, but I think you're not giving them enough credit.
Besides, this gak isn't subtle, lol. It's a borrowed plot element from the movie Labyrinth with David Bowie and Jennifer Connely, lol.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Regardless, Lorgar was a chump. He was the first pawn in Chaos's game. But he was never more than that. The Ruinous Powers knew that Lorgar was the weakest of the primarchs (physically, mentally, and emotionally) and the easiest to convert. And once they had done that, they could use him to help pollute some of his brothers.
Yup, so physically weak he beat An'ggrath in single combat and walked away from it. I believe Sanguinius had trouble fighting Ka'Bandha to the point where he got both his legs broken and was nearly killed. Yeah, Lorgar is pretty weak alright. He's also so weak mentally that he was only able to completely convert every planet he conquered to the worship of the Emperor no matter what the culture was before just by speaking to them. How lame. And he's so weak emotionally that he stood before the Emperor and demanded the truth, when all others would not dare question the Emperor. Lorgar had to be driven to his knees by the psychic might of the Emperor himself because he would not back down from his beliefs when the Emperor refused to tell him the whole truth. Yeah, man, Lorgar is utterly pathetic.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Some Black Library authors maybe, but I think you're not giving them enough credit.
Besides, this gak isn't subtle, lol. It's a borrowed plot element from the movie Labyrinth with David Bowie and Jennifer Connely, lol.
The books themselves speak against you, as well as others on this forum. Later on, more books with Lorgar and dealings with the Primordial Truth will also prove you wrong. Chaos isn't lying to Lorgar; the Chaos gods are worthy of worship to those who deem them worthy of worship, and so it becomes true. There are gods because people believe them to be gods, and so it becomes true. Everything is based on Faith in 40k, hell even the Orks have to believe their stuff will work in order for it to actually work. Lorgar accepted their Truth because it gave him purity of purpose, something he lacked once the Emperor denounced him. You may call it weakness, or a character flaw, but the Emperor himself programmed the need for Faith in Lorgar, just as he put other aspects of himself into the other Primarchs. It just happened to massively backfire on him this time.
But they aren't against me homey. No matter how many times you (or other morons on the forum?) repeat that, it won't become true. I told you to re-read the scene from Aurelian. I gave you the chance. Your failure to read into the context that's right in front of you is your problem, not mine.
I hate to break your heart homey, but I actually had a conversation on B&C with A-D-B (you know, the author of Aurelian) and while for obvious reasons he didn't confirm or deny my interpretation, it was fairly obvious that I hit the nail on the head.
Just because there are a lot of poor readers out there (with you counted amongst their ranks) doesn't make me wrong. A thousand high school dropouts could argue with a Nobel Prize Winner. They'd still all be idiots and wrong.
Look, I get that you play Word Bearers, and it means that you want to have an image of them in your mind that they are the awesomestist, but sadly, it isn't the reality. The Word Bearers were the worst of the Legions, accomplishing the least, wasting the most time, and being officially censured for it. Their primarch was an emo whiner who couldn't handle his validation issues and fell to Chaos. The Word Bearers were deemed to be completely expendable, and Horus sacrificed them against the Ultramarines because he had to figure out a way to neutralize the thread from Guilliman's legion while losing the least possible. Since the Word Bearers were the least experienced of the Legions, and their Primarch the poorest leader, they were the obvious choice. The fact that they hated the Ultramarines only helped. But Horus knew that they had little to no chance of beating the Ultramarines, but had also judged their loss to be the least damaging to his cause.
The Word Bearers have some cool fluff behind them. I think Lorgar has been pretty well written, and he's a relatively sympathetic character (I mean, who wouldn't react poorly to being chastised by their idol?). But it doesn't mean he isn't weak. Instead of turning that chastisement into something that made him better, he fell into a honeypot trap set by Chaos and was turned pretty easily.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Just because there are a lot of poor readers out there (with you counted amongst their ranks) doesn't make me wrong. A thousand high school dropouts could argue with a Nobel Prize Winner. They'd still all be idiots and wrong.
You mean like Obama? Pretty sure winning a Nobel Prize doesn't automatically make you right. Hell, it doesn't even mean you did anything to deserve it. One must always question what is established to be "true" because it might not actually be true.
Speaking of questioning, you're not even arguing your point anymore, so I'm just going to assuming you ran out of stuff to back up your idea with.
Kor Phaeron nearly kills Guilliman himself, and somehow you don't think that a fully empowered Lorgar would not be able to finish the job? Lorgar nearly killed Fulgrim and forced Horus to back off, but somehow he'd lose to Guilliman. Indeed. Chaos certainly needed to lie to save Lorgar... Or perhaps it was because Chaos actually wanted Lorgar to look at the bigger picture and win the greater battle? Lorgar chose to ignore his personal feelings of hate and his desire for revenge and instead went on to make sure the greater plans of Chaos were carried out. That doesn't sound so weak to me; sounds more like exactly what the High Priest of Chaos Undivided should do.
Feel free to stop me if the weight of logic becomes too much or you run out of cute names to call me and others on the board who disagree with you.
What's there to "need to back up"? Do you assume I carry my copy of Aurelian around with me?
Besides, I have a feeling that even when I quote the passage, you'll just pretend it doesn't say exactly whay it says. I paraphrased it. You know exactly what passage I am talking about, and yet you haven't gone back to the text to quote a passage or passages that defend your argument. I think we can only assume that you never had anything to back up your argument with in the first place except for confirmation bias.
Look. A close reader would have noticed that the confrontation between Lorgar and Guilliman in his vision is almost identical to what ended up actually happening between Kor Phaeron and Guilliman. And yet for some crazy reason, Lorgar was denied the opportunity to see how the confrontation ended in his vision. Why's that? Because Kor Phaeron gloated, and Guilliman gutted him when he let his guard down. Lorgar was gloating and... oh wait. Nevermind. Forgot that you hate contact and deductive reasoning. I wouldn't want to trouble you to think and analyze. Tzeentch knew that Lorgar would blow his opportunity to kill Guilliman, and their newest pet project would be killed or crippled when they needed him most against the Emperor. So his Oracle just lies to Lorgar about how his choice will impact the outcome of the Heresy by convincing him that he will lose the opportunity to bring enlightenment to humanity (oh wait, that didn't happen anyway? Why would the Oracle of the Great Conspirator lie to Lorgar...)
Veteran Sergeant wrote:What's there to "need to back up"? Do you assume I carry my copy of Aurelian around with me?
Besides, I have a feeling that even when I quote the passage, you'll just pretend it doesn't say exactly whay it says. I paraphrased it. You know exactly what passage I am talking about, and yet you haven't gone back to the text to quote a passage or passages that defend your argument. I think we can only assume that you never had anything to back up your argument with in the first place except for confirmation bias.
Look. A close reader would have noticed that the confrontation between Lorgar and Guilliman in his vision is almost identical to what ended up actually happening between Kor Phaeron and Guilliman. And yet for some crazy reason, Lorgar was denied the opportunity to see how the confrontation ended in his vision. Why's that? Because Kor Phaeron gloated, and Guilliman gutted him when he let his guard down. Lorgar was gloating and... oh wait. Nevermind. Forgot that you hate contact and deductive reasoning. I wouldn't want to trouble you to think and analyze. Tzeentch knew that Lorgar would blow his opportunity to kill Guilliman, and their newest pet project would be killed or crippled when they needed him most against the Emperor. So his Oracle just lies to Lorgar about how his choice will impact the outcome of the Heresy by convincing him that he will lose the opportunity to bring enlightenment to humanity (oh wait, that didn't happen anyway? Why would the Oracle of the Great Conspirator lie to Lorgar...)
You assumed I had a copy of Aurelian with me when you told me to reread it, so I assumed you had one as well. And as similar as the vision was, getting the drop on a gloating, modified human in terminator armor is just a tad bit less of an accomplishment than doing the same thing to a super-powered Primarch. Kor Phaeron isn't even an Astartes. Lorgar could still have gone to Calth; Tzeentch doesn't know exactly how things will turn out, just how they're most likely to turn out due to his machinations. Things could always suddenly change, which pleases Tzeentch as much as it pisses him off. But the vision is a moot point because it didn't happen. Tzeentch didn't want it to happen at all, nevermind what the actual outcome was. The point was to show Lorgar what he desired to see, to show his vengeance at hand. It didn't matter the outcome, it only mattered that Lorgar made the choice to go or not to go. He was tempted to find out just how it would end, but Lorgar chose to let it go, giving up his chance for revenge. Just the chance, the idea, the possibility was very tempting.
Heh, it's kinda like how we debate things on here even though much of the time they are merely half-seen visions or vaguely referenced fluff points that have no meaning on the grand scale of things. Or worse, BL is trolling us just to get us into frenzied debates which leads to buying MOAR PLASTIC CRACK!
Surtur wrote:Guilliman deals in fact, Lorgar deals in mysticism.
That would be true, if this was a traditional sci-fi setting. What people seem to be missing is that this isn't a traditional sci-fi setting - it's 40k. And in 40k the universe is completely irrational at its core. The ones who believe in "progress" and "enlightenment" are in fact deluding themselves. So no, Guilliman does not deal in fact. Lorgar's vision of the universe is in fact true. It's Guilliman's vision that is ultimately based on lies. And this is of course illustrated in hilariously grimdark detail over the course of the next 10 thousand years. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE STORY.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Word Bearers were the worst of the Legions, accomplishing the least, wasting the most time, and being officially censured for it.
Yet they somehow managed to pretty much completely destroy the Emperor's grand plan to rule galaxy. Funny that.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Instead of turning that chastisement into something that made him better, he fell into a honeypot trap set by Chaos and was turned pretty easily.
Yet in M40k Lorgar is an immortal demigod while the Emperor is a vegetable. Funny that.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Just because there are a lot of poor readers out there (with you counted amongst their ranks) doesn't make me wrong. A thousand high school dropouts could argue with a Nobel Prize Winner. They'd still all be idiots and wrong.
Wow homey, did you just compare yourself to a Nobel Prize Winner? Keep going, we're listening. I suggest throwing in a few more misogynistic remarks to really get your point across.
To Termies question about Sigismund, he was the 1st Captain of the Imperial Fists and (IIRC) during the siege of terra had his armor painted black and went out and kicked the snot out of chaos champions-he then became the 1st High Marshal of the Black Templars.
As for most mock-worthy primarch, I'm not so sure.
These are my general observations
Horus: Failed
Angron-not much I see to mock here, Emps made a bad decision and Angron was Angron
Kurze-Space Batman
Magnus-Arrogant, thought he knew what was in the warp
Mortarion-I don't know too much about him or why he turned
Alpharius/Omegon
Spoiler:
Trusted in aliens and formed a plan of action based on that, when they could have helped Emps stomp Horus, and the result of them siding with Horus didn't actually win Horus the war. In addition, the Raven Guard would have been able to rebuild and help fight Horus more than they did.
Lorgar: Whiny, had anger problems
Peturabo: Not much bad, trolled Lion and Dorn
Fulgrim: Ego got to his head
Gulliman: I liked him in Know No Fear. I find it ironic that he didn't quite realize the place he needed to have when the crusade finished (though by the heresy instead of a victory) when this was one of the things he talked to the Ultramarines about.
Dorn: Too stoic for my liking, should have advised Emps to stay in the palace rather than teleport to Horus' ship
Corax: Doesn't seem like too much to mock, he stuck by his mutated legionaries and went back to the fight under strength.
Lion: Concerned with his own place, too logical
Khan: Genghis Khan in space
Sanguinius: Prettyboy, but liked by others and was a pretty good warrior
Russ: Rash, drunk, but he is a space viking so it comes off as somewhat cool to me
Vulkan: Haven't read too much about him, he does care for the common man though and that counts
Ferrus Manus: Terminator (Arnold kind, as far as won't be stopped yada yada yada) who happens to be a space marine
Based on the fact that his ego was enormous, being a prettyboy, and that I honestly can't stand him or his legion, I think Fulgrim is the most mock-worthy
You do realize that the only Primarch that Alpharius Omegon had a positive relationship with was Horus while the other two they had met (Guilliman and Dorn) were unfriendly and disrespectful to say the least. They also had extraordinarily little contact with the Emperor and thus were pretty much strangers with Daddy. So if you were (one of) them, who would you side with? The only brother who was friendly and held respect for you, or Daddy and two brothers who you are either unfamiliar with or on bad terms with?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Word Bearers were the worst of the Legions, accomplishing the least, wasting the most time, and being officially censured for it.
Yet they somehow managed to pretty much completely destroy the Emperor's grand plan to rule galaxy. Funny that.
They did? I'm fairly sure they were just a small part. Tools. Nothing more.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Instead of turning that chastisement into something that made him better, he fell into a honeypot trap set by Chaos and was turned pretty easily.
Yet in M40k Lorgar is an immortal demigod while the Emperor is a vegetable. Funny that.
An immortal demigod that sits in a room obsessively writing a book he'll never finish and nobody reads, lol. The Emperor may have been mortally wounded by Horus, and yet he's still done more than Lorgar in the last 10,000 years.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Just because there are a lot of poor readers out there (with you counted amongst their ranks) doesn't make me wrong. A thousand high school dropouts could argue with a Nobel Prize Winner. They'd still all be idiots and wrong.
Wow homey, did you just compare yourself to a Nobel Prize Winner? Keep going, we're listening. I suggest throwing in a few more misogynistic remarks to really get your point across.
Compared to some of you, a Nobel Prize Winner might not be drastic enough. However, none of this is personal. The comparison wasn't making me the Nobel Prize Winner. I'm just saying that if 1000 people are wrong and one person is right, the 1000 are still wrong even if there are a lot of them saying the wrong thing all at once.
Why you guys take literary critique so personally, I'll never know. You're not Lorgar. You're not Word Bearers. You're just wargamers and forum goers. If Lorgar is emotionally and mentally weak, it doesn't make you a bad person. If you're getting angry over this, you've got an unhealthy attachment to a fictional character. /shrug I'm not the only one saying Lorgar was weak and whiny. I'm just doing the most convincing job of it because, well, I'm pretty well educated. Sorry if that threatens you.
Lorgar and Magnus are probably internally tormented right now. All they do is brood over the past and future, Lorgar in his chambers (with a sign hanging in the door that reads: "Enter and Die", and Magnus in his tower.
Hmm.. this thread is mental. Too many people obsess over their hobby a wee bit it seems.
I agree with VS for my two cents, I thought it wasn't even up for a debate? I mean, I've read loads of HH books, chaos is inherently evil because it is a manifestation of mortals worst emotions, hate and lust and so forth.
Ergo, if you turned to chaos, you fethed up. You swallowed the lies and now the innately evil and malevolent chaos Gods toy with you for their own amusement.
Which means yes, Lorgar is a total feth head and fell for it hook line and sinker, he is a whiny little girl with a complex because his brother Robutte was much more awesome than him.
I think he is the worst Primarch by far, the other guys turned cos of actual reasons, he's just like the fictional embodiment of Jerry Falwell!
mattyrm wrote:Hmm.. this thread is mental. Too many people obsess over their hobby a wee bit it seems.
I agree with VS for my two cents, I thought it wasn't even up for a debate? I mean, I've read loads of HH books, chaos is inherently evil because it is a manifestation of mortals worst emotions, hate and lust and so forth.
Ergo, if you turned to chaos, you fethed up. You swallowed the lies and now the innately evil and malevolent chaos Gods toy with you for their own amusement.
Which means yes, Lorgar is a total feth head and fell for it hook line and sinker, he is a whiny little girl with a complex because his brother Robutte was much more awesome than him.
I think he is the worst Primarch by far, the other guys turned cos of actual reasons, he's just like the fictional embodiment of Jerry Falwell!
This. I seriously have no clue how someone could even want to defend Lorgar. He's like Anakin in the episodes 1-2-3... only way worse...
Maybe you aren't watching the same thread as me, but this one was updated quite regularly for the last week. Mattyrm's post was made yesterday? Wanna try again?
Redcruisair wrote:I can forgive them for burnig those witches
Backstabbing your brother Primarch and Astartes cousins is inexcusable. Even before the Heresy, at Nikaea, the Wolves turned on the Sons after the Rune Priests gave the Sons the impression that they were allies. How different are those rabid dogs from Horus and the other traitors?
Maybe Russ along with any other anti-psyker thought the TS were a legitimate threat to the empire.
Sorcery has in the past doomed a great many planets, and Russ including Mortarion feared something similar would happen to Magnus and the TS.
Redcruisair wrote:Maybe Russ along with any other anti-psyker thought the TS were a legitimate threat to the empire.
Sorcery has in the past doomed a great many planets, and Russ including Mortarion feared something similar would happen to Magnus and the TS.
The Primarchs were all powerful psykers. Some of them just didn't use their powers, and the Emperor's hand was forced on Nikaea - He never actually wanted to censor Magnus, which was why despite Russ' complaints before Nikaea, the Emperor adamantly refused to censor the Sons. Only when Mortarion and Dorn sided with Russ did the Emperor reluctantly give in. Magnus was His finest student after Horus, and the closest after Horus and Sanguinius. The Golden Throne was built for Magnus, and not for anyone else. It was a gift as great as the position of Warmaster should have been had Horus not trusted Erebus.
A shame really, that Magnus insisted on using dangerous and unclean sorcery, if he had followed the Emperor’s command he could have become the ultimate instrument for mankind’ domination of the galaxy.
Instead he believed that he was all knowing and that the warp was his to command… You see the problem here?
A shame really, that Magnus insisted on using dangerous and unclean sorcery, if he had followed the Emperor’s command he could have become the ultimate instrument for mankind’ domination of the galaxy. Instead he believed that he was all knowing and that the warp was his to command… You see the problem here?
That's not the point. If Russ and the others (including that blockhead Dorn) hadn't forced the Emperor's hand, Magnus would have remained absolutely loyal. He would probably have accompanied the Emperor back to Terra had Nikaea not forced Magnus to return to Prospero and regroup his legion.
"The Primarchs were all powerful psykers."
Were did you get this idea from?
At Shrike, Russ let out a massive psychic howl that slaughtered most of the Atheneans among the Second Fellowship, and shook the resolve of two Thousand Sons Magisters: T'kar and Ahriman. And again at Prospero, Russ deflected Captain Auramagma's warpfire assault as though it were nothing. If Russ, the most anti-psyker among them, was a powerful psyker without realizing it, reason stands that other Primarchs also had psychic abilities they knew nothing about.
The whole point with Nikaea was to put a stop to Magnus reliance on sorcery.
Big E gave Magnus a chance to end his adventure in warp land (were Tzeenth was waiting patiently for him.) Magnus decided not to heed this warning and continued his study of the warp which led him right into Tzeenth’s pocket.
Then Magnus tried to warn the emperor of Horus treachery through sorcery, which ended horribly for them both, and proving in the end that Russ and co. were right to criticise him. Had Nikaea ended in Magnus favour (were sorcery was allowed,) he would undoubtedly still have tried to warn his father with sorcery, forcing his father to send Russ to destroy the TS and arrest Magnus (same result in the end.)
Following that reply with something that comes to mind.
Maybe the reason Russ hated psykers so much, was he feared he was one?
Especially since he was adopted by a culture that hated such 'taint'? And he
simply projected this emotion onto the 1k son and Magnus as a result of his
fear?
All the Primarchs being psykers makes sense on a very basic level; they're all sons
of the Emprah and Chaos, and two, they all manage on some level or another to
survive in situations that even the humble Astartes get creamed in (granting some
sort of 'divine' protect ala psykic strength). Which as being among the most powerful
pyskers ever to have existed has to make you wonder about certain weapons and
how unbelievibly potent they are to have even hurt these guys...
Back on topic.
Khan for the simple face that the only things I can recall of his exploits is defending Terra
(by not helping the Emprah assault Horus); chasing after Dark Eldar in the Webway
and getting lost for the last 10k years!
Ultimately bringing death and destruction upon the Imperium.
No. No he didn't. I'm no Space Wolf fanboy, but Russ remained loyal. When he was ordered to kill Magnus and attack the Thousand Sons, Horus hadn't yet revealed his true colours, so Russ thought his orders came down from the Emperor himself. The fact that he wasn't bestest buddies with Magnus in the first place was something Horus took advantage of.
idiot was a powerful psyker; most likely he used the same hypocritical excuse as his warp-damned wolf priests: We don't use the power of the Warp, we invoke the power of Fenris!
Take a second and figure out what those things have in common.
