I always seem to go just over the points limit whilst list building, sometimes by as little as 5 points, sometimes by as much as 30. I always try to bring it down as much as possible ofcourse, I don't want to be seen as a cheat, though I couldn't help but wonder how much my fellow dakkanauts consider is too much? Has your opponent ever said "I've gone xx points over" and how have you reacted?

Well, if it's something that you've agreed upon, and you've exceeded it, even just, then doesn't that mean that you have too much?

I'm generally ok with a little over (1-2pts) in casual games but I do consider it cheating, just as I would consider a 6.5" move cheating (instead of a 6" move.)

At a tournament, obviously, I would not expect my opponent to be a single point over and would expect them to be suitably disciplined should they be found out.

10 pts over in 40k is my limit. 10 points can buy a single gun that can make a big difference.

Fantasy? Eh, more or less then same, but only because over 10pts you start getting into magical items.

I've only gone over the points limit once and that was by 2pts, but up to about 10 is ok id say but if your opponent is fine with it then its ok

Here's the thing. Say you have 165 points left to spend, and you want another Tac Squad. A 10 man tac squad costs 170 points. It also gets you a free flamer and a free missile launcher.

Suddenly, you're not just getting 'one extra marine', you're getting an extra marine and a bunch of weapons for those extra 5 points.

Alternatively, consider this: If going over by 5-10 points shouldn't be any big deal by your opponent, and shouldn't give you an unfair advantage, why do you want to do it so much?

0: A limit is a limit.

Of course, there's room to be flexible. For example, if a new player only has a couple squads of troops painted, or you want to try something weird.

Balance wrote:0: A limit is a limit.

Of course, there's room to be flexible. For example, if a new player only has a couple squads of troops painted, or you want to try something weird.

Ya, new players or people with far fewer models than yourself.

When I'm talking 10 points wiggle room I mean super friendly games. If I show up for a pick up game in the store I would prefer you were spot on.

Generally, in pickups against unfamiliar opponents and tournaments, the limit is the limit and that's that.

In games against friends, we'd quite commonly go up to thirty or so points over, and just let the other player know so they can match it.

0 points. Under is always better than over.

My friends and I have a 2-pt bend. There are plenty of wargear choices that can leave you a point or so high.

Anything above that can buy you another peice of wargear that you could have left home to fit the points cap.


Tournaments, even friendlyish ones? Points as listed.

I am going to copy-paste the same answer I always post when this question comes up.

Please note that this isn't directed at anybody in particular and all use of "you" is as a generic "you".


-----------------------------------------------------

I'll allow a zero point breach of the maximum allowed.

5 points is the difference between a Mortar and an Autocannon. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to the Rhino heading towards you.

3 points allows for a Singing Spear upgrade. Make a lot of difference to the Land Raider nearby. Plus I get to hear about how his Warlock killed my Land Raider forever.

1 point is a Searchlight. The Searchlight that just lit up my Stormraven, allowing the rest of his army to shoot at it.

Saying; "It's just 1 point. It doesn't make a lot of difference" is a huge fallacy. That 1 point might also be part of a larger chunk of points that makes it possible to field that extra Hive Guard, Terminator, Meltagun or whatever.

Saying; "Just add a Melta Bomb to one of our Sergeants and we are even" is a fallacy. Said squad might not have been taken to move aggresively forwards....making the upgrade utterly pointless. Hell, it might even induce me to stray from the basic tenents of my battleplan, which I had in mind when I made the armylist. Maybe I even considered giving him a Melta Bomb but discarded the idea because it was a useless waste of points.....and now I add it again to compensate for your unwillingness to follow the rules?

If 5 points is no big deal, then remove them. They are "no big deal", remember?

Thank you for putting me in a situation where I, by saying "no", is denying you your "right to have fun". I am not really given a choice. You broke the rules/agreement and suddenly I'M the TFG?!?

We have to set the limit somewhere....and that might as well be at the limit agreed upon beforehand.

Asking "how many points can I be over my list" is a litlte bit like asking "how much intimate contact counts as infidelity?"

The answer is always "zero, unless you're explicitly allowed more by an individual."

Likewise, saying, "well, you can add a few extra points to your list now" is kind of like telling your girlfriend "well, you can make out with one of my siblings."

1 point over is too much

Polonius wrote:Asking "how many points can I be over my list" is a litlte bit like asking "how much intimate contact counts as infidelity?"

The answer is always "zero, unless you're explicitly allowed more by an individual."

Likewise, saying, "well, you can add a few extra points to your list now" is kind of like telling your girlfriend "well, you can make out with one of my siblings."

Polonius, you always have the best way of putting things into words.

Polonius wrote:Asking "how many points can I be over my list" is a litlte bit like asking "how much intimate contact counts as infidelity?"

The answer is always "zero, unless you're explicitly allowed more by an individual."

I agree with Polo.

pretre wrote:0 points. Under is always better than over.

Thats how I do it for myself, Im not desperate in a game to must go over something when I can just take something off.

Though I do tolerate others up to 100pts

It's not cheating if you declare the overspend and the other guy allows it. You can think of it as a handicap.

Of course if he says you've got to drop something then you should drop something.

If you knowingly conceal the overspend then it is cheating.

I'd really have to do it on a case by case basis. In friendly games I can usually get passed it. Tournaments are a no go though. Anything competitive and you gotta stay under that limit.

i had a game vs a imp guard krieg player, my list was 1750, i read through his and was ok with it, i noticed he had 120 guardsman and 7 medusa, looked at his points and not knowing the krieg list, just got on with it, when i got home and checked the list, he was rocking 2200 pts, a few points i can accept, but well... you get the idea

Five points over is the max for me, anything more than that means you need to trim that list.

Anything over is unacceptable IMO. There's a point limit for a reason- you have to design your list within those restrictions. A lot of times lists don't work out perfectly, so you have to accept that and adjust.

If you're playing against friends who are in the same boat as you- and everyone's OK with it then of course it's acceptable... 40k is just a game and people can do whatever house rules they want.

If I'm over or an apponent is over, we just add x amount onto our own list.

Usually evens everything out.

well for me,

tournaments: 0pts over

friendly: up to 4-5pts

Zero points. If you want a 5 point buffer, just admit up front that you're playing a 1,705 point game.

0 points for me. In WHFB those VP's matter

0 points. It's a called a limit for a reason.

If you've both agreed something, why would you then try and change that agreement?

Kilkrazy wrote:It's not cheating if you declare the overspend and the other guy allows it. You can think of it as a handicap.

Of course if he says you've got to drop something then you should drop something.

If you knowingly conceal the overspend then it is cheating.

It's breaking the rules, whether the other guy allows it or not. Realistically, if your opponent has taken the time to collect and paint an army, and meet you somewhere for a game, he's probably not going to refuse to play because you're only a few points over the agreed limit. I know I wouldn't make a big deal of it, even though I wouldn't really be happy about it. But next time, I'd probably be looking for a different opponent. I would also be watching this guy really closely to see if he has a magical stretchy measuring tape, magical transmogrifying wargear ("no, really, I paid for this flamer as a meltagun!"), or any of the numerous other things that apparently "aren't really cheating" but totally are.

Or, to put it another way, if you're 5 points over in our 2000 point game, why didn't you simply challenge me to a 2005 point game?

I'm generally ok with my opponents being a couple of points over in friendly games. At 5 points, there's pretty much ALWAYS something to drop to get it down. It's entirely possible that there's nothing you can drop without putting you down 7-9 points, with no upgrades to take to make up for it. Not every codex has a 1, 2, or 3 point option that you can just drop.

If I'm playing DE and am 2 points over, I can't just drop ONE haywire grenade from my wyches...the entire squad has to drop it, causing a lot of rearranging to make it work.

With that said, I refuse to play over myself (My 2K DE list tends to sit at 1995 because I have nothing else to take without putting me over). I also would not tolerate it at a tournament.


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Jangustus wrote:0 points. It's a called a limit for a reason.

If you've both agreed something, why would you then try and change that agreement?

This is way too rigid. If he then plays 5 points down, you're now changing your agreement in YOUR favor.

No you are not. The agreement was 2k and he brought 1995? That is his fault not yours.

spyguyyoda wrote:

This is way too rigid. If he then plays 5 points down, you're now changing your agreement in YOUR favor.

Not at all. It's a point LIMIT. You are always free to go under it.

You don't get arrested for driving 5 miles under the speed limit do you? You don't around here. Might get you shot at though.

To give an example, I've been writing lists up tonight for a game at my flgs on saturday. It's a 600 point limit. My current 'ideal' list is 601. I can drop a venom upgrade to bring me to 596, that's no an issue as it's largely useless anyway (chain flails), though i was trying to guage the response of how much difference that 1 point would make - ie,1/10th of a wych. That's like... a foot.

I completely understand the difference as pointed out by Steelmage99 regarding searchlights, though at that point you'd argue that you already have a 600 point list, taking that extra searchlight is illegal as you're not taking it to make up your points allocation, you're taking it for in game advantage.

The difference, in my mind, is that the 1 point in this occurence has come about as part of a desire to get myself closer to where my opponent will be pointswise, and not to add that cheeky little extra and hope that no-one notices.

Hope I'm explaining that well enough

Its so easy to just drop/swap a special or a heavy weapon, or a squad member. There just no reason to ever be over the limit.

AlexHolker wrote:Zero points. If you want a 5 point buffer, just admit up front that you're playing a 1,705 point game.

Then, to trot out the same response I give in these kinds of threads...

So, now you're playing a 1705pt game and your opponent wishes to go 5pts over again, because you agreed to a 5pt leeway remember? So now you're playing 1710pts and so on and so on. Where does it end? It's called a points LIMIT for a reason.

LazzurusMan wrote:If I'm over or an apponent is over, we just add x amount onto our own list.

Usually evens everything out.

My concern with this is it that I feel it is basically saying "I spent a lot of time building a list and either didn't quite do it it right or needed an extra 5 points for some sort of supercool combo I can't live without. So I'll spot you five points, which since you are delaying actually playing the game to spend, will likely be spent non-optimally on something of minimal value. But I got what I want. So there."

Or to equate to the real world, my bank gets real annoyed when I spend more than my limit.

For friendly games 1-3 points over is fine by me. In most cases that is less than the cost of a single core infantry so I don't mind as it isn't an extra model on the table.
At 4 points, your Hero can lose the shield and you will be within points.

At tourneys, it is never ok to be over. If you have to be 5 points under, so be it.

I myself don't write lists that are ever over the amount I'm going for. In some cases this means running odd sizes in units like 11 archers or something where the last model was filler points that couldn't be spent elsewhere without going over.

It's called a limit for a reason, and the same arguments that apply to 'what's the big deal about being just a little bit over?' apply to it being just a little bit under. I'm always at the limit or less, and I prefer my opponents do the same.

If I could quote all the amazing responses I agree with, I'd fill up this entire page.

A limit is a limit, and a hard one at that. Don't put your opponent in an awkward situation by bringing a list over the agreed limit. Drop something to bring it under if you have to, but never go over the limit. Force yourself to build lists that don't go over, not even by 1 point. I'd much rather show up with a 1495pts list than a 1505pts list in a 1500pts game.

For games with your bestest of best friends in a beerhammer match, sure, go nuts. But in nearly every other conceivable game scenario, be the good guy and don't break the limit.

I wouldnt worry about it.

Personally I would let my opponents go over or under the points limit by a few hundred points if they were fun to play against.

People who take 40K so seriously that they worry about 15 points over are the kinds of people I generally would avoid playing with. 40K simply is not that good of a game mechanically to get wound up about.

[edit] and judging by the responses I am reading in this thread, I am reminded of exactly why I no longer play 40K. For game where grown men push dollies around a playground and in scary dollie houses, those very same people take it just waaaaay to seriously to glean any fun from the game.

You know how GW designers make the points for units? If you guessed some magical rubric, then you guessed wrong.

They have admitted numerous times that the points "that feel right" are given to units.

Of course in tournaments you want to remain at or under the point spread, but playing this game in tournaments is a whole other topic of discussion I wont go into.

Hellfury wrote:[edit] and judging by the responses I am reading in this thread, I am reminded of exactly why I no longer play 40K. For game where grown men push dollies around a playground and in scary dollie houses, those very same people take it just waaaaay to seriously to glean any fun from the game.

Which comes back to the same argument that gets presented every time this comes up: If the points matter so little, why is it such a big deal to just drop those extra points?

The state of the game and it's lack of overall balance is ultimately completely secondary to the issue. If you agree to play a game at a certain points limit, then that is the points limit for that game.

That's got nothing to do with 'taking the game too seriously'... it's to do with playing the game you agreed to play.


We play SkipBo a lot at home. We don't take it seriously... We make up house rules, we spend a lot of time laughing about it all... but we would still object if someone just randomly decided that they were entitled to draw an extra card. However players decide to alter the game to suit themselves, and however well-written (or not) the game is, everybody has to be playing by the same rules.

Last time I went over the point limit, I was 13. I haven't since. No list is impossible to get it under. If you've gotta make sacrifices to get that 1-2 points to go away, then do it. Your opponent most likely had to do the same thing himself.

I personally don't mind up to 5 points over the limit. We're a friendly group and I'd rather my friends get the chance to test out their list ideas without sweating every single point.

During tournaments, of course, the limit is ironclad.

During tournies, no points over; if you're over, I call the judge and suggest that *I* decide what you lose to get under the legal limit. During friendly games, I don't mind as long as its within 1% (so 20pts in a 2000pt game) as long as the opponent tells me. Half the time I'll won't change anything, half the time I'll just add an extra Meltabomb to my HQs to make up some of the difference.

Part of the game is building the list. Sure, everyone would like to take everything they want. But most games are about making the players make interesting (~challenging) decisions.

It's easier to write a haiku if you give yourself some extra syllables to play with... Or a poem if you didn't have to worry about rhyme or meter. But then, you're really taking a cop out rather than embracing the challenge.

You want that "x" which'll put you five points over? Figure out how to make it fit.

All that said, I probably wouldn't say "no" to a game if someone is over, but I'd never do it in one of my lists and I'd be asking myself if someone who's "willingly" over is someone I want to play against again. They may be and that certainly wouldn't be the deciding factor, but for me that'd be a mental strike against.

Valete,

JohnS

If my opponent is over by more than 2 points, I try to squeeze something in my list to make it even.

You've agreed to a certain point limit and you're over points. What are you supposed to do?

It's quite simple. You either talk to the other person and say, "Is it okay to play at X points instead?" or you make a different list.

If you agreed to play at 2000 points, why is 2000 magically important compared to 2003 or 2005 or 2010 points? The exact point limit is a magical number because it is the number of points that you agreed to. And it remains a magically important number until you agree to change it.

Eh, if it is a 2000 point game I give a 5 point leeway. If you are 5 points over I won't say anything, if you are five points under, I won't gripe.

any more points over or under and I will issue concern.

I don't need to cheat to win, and I won't tolerate
my self or anybody else having an unfair advantage.

Grimtuff wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:Zero points. If you want a 5 point buffer, just admit up front that you're playing a 1,705 point game.

Then, to trot out the same response I give in these kinds of threads...

So, now you're playing a 1705pt game and your opponent wishes to go 5pts over again, because you agreed to a 5pt leeway remember? So now you're playing 1710pts and so on and so on. Where does it end? It's called a points LIMIT for a reason.

You misread my post. We're on the same side: I'm saying there should be absolutely no leeway, but that does not require that the hard points limit be a multiple of 100. If you want to play a 1,699 point game, that's your prerogative, but you have to stick to that point limit.

poontangler wrote:any more points over or under and I will issue concern.

Why is it a concern if they are under...?

Point LIMIT. You go over, you need to rework your list.

Now there are exceptions, a friendly game where you might be trying a new army, a point or two is OK. As long as your opponent knows and is given the ability to match with a piece of war gear or something.

insaniak wrote:

poontangler wrote:any more points over or under and I will issue concern.

Why is it a concern if they are under...?

If your opponent is under, it may give you an advantage. Or that's how I read it.

It depends.

Friendly games against folks I've known for years are often opened with 'oh, I'm over by 3 pts' which is expected and never quibbled over.

If I were playing a recent acquaintance or stranger or participating in a tourney, then no points over.

treadhead1944 wrote:If your opponent is under, it may give you an advantage. Or that's how I read it.

That's their problem, really. Unless you're also going to start analysing their army list choices before the game to make sure their list is optimal...

insaniak wrote:

treadhead1944 wrote:If your opponent is under, it may give you an advantage. Or that's how I read it.

That's their problem, really. Unless you're also going to start analysing their army list choices before the game to make sure their list is optimal...

I got nothing.

You question is flawed. It's never acceptable to pass a limit. That's why it's a limit.

IE is it acceptable to catch more fish than your limit or drive past the speed limit?...No.

Why bother setting a limit if you're just going to surpass it?

If it's a really special circumstance like teaching someone to play, or have a sorta scenario event, then that's fine.

Friendly game at the local store? Fine, just re-jig the list afterwards so long as you don't have a cheap upgrade that you can drop to make the points back, such as meltabombs - It's first come, first served for tables, and i'd prefer to get a game in than have to forfeit the table to somebody else and potentially not get a game in at all due to a minor error in calculating.

Friendly Tournament? If you haven't seen my list yet, then drop something. If you have, then i'm going to have to inform the TO (because some people won't be above tailoring by removing an upgrade that's useless against me in favour of something that's useful).

Competative Tournament? Zero-tolerance; I'm going to have to inform the TO - You should've checked it long before you came, and any errors should've been caught if the lists were run past the TO. I didn't just pay through the nose to attend a tournament and potentially be knocked out or beaten out of a placing position by an illegal list.

Avatar 720 wrote: It's first come, first served for tables, and i'd prefer to get a game in than have to forfeit the table to somebody else and potentially not get a game in at all due to a minor error in calculating.

That actually leads to a different issue that's always puzzled me... Most venues have a few 'standard' points values that tend to be played. And yet a surprising number of people will show up to play without a pre-prepared army list.

Boggles the mind. If I'm going to have to sit around for half an hour waiting for you to write your list, I'm just going to go play someone else.

Task and Purpose wrote:You question is flawed. It's never acceptable to pass a limit. That's why it's a limit.

IE is it acceptable to catch more fish than your limit or drive past the speed limit?...No.

Cops usually allow you to go 10 over and wont pull you over, atleast where im from... just saying

Not many people turn up without an army list to our GW nights or the FLGS; in fact, I don't think anyone does. At least, Vet's night at my GW runs a pre-written list policy AFAIK, but points issues could still arise, like someone who created a prototype list in store on that day, but before he opted to play a game; i've certainly had times where i've come to a list I wrote a night or two before and realised that it doesn't add up right when i'm checking it through.

Diezel wrote:Cops usually allow you to go 10 over and wont pull you over, atleast where im from... just saying

Tht doesn't make it any less illegal to go over

I used to give a 5 point allowance for either side but since getting back in I feel this is unnecessary there should be no points over if I am I can drop a boy from a squad or something along those lines. There is really no reason to be over.

Ummmm... zero.

This isn't like a speed limit sign, where you are given a grace zone for a malfunctioning speedometer. If you are playing 1750, make sure it all adds up. This is a budgeting system, make you army work within its budget...

Quite a lot of great responses here. I'll parrot most users and say that the limit is the limit. You have what is essentially an unlimited amount of time to create your list, so if you decide to go 1 point over, all I see is a lazy player. I won't play against a lazy player.

Sure, if you and your friends decide to have an impromptu game night and you all make lists on the spot, go 5-10 points over. No one likes waiting around so that someone can make the 'perfect' list if all you want to do is have a quick, casual game. The fact is, that in that particular situation you did not come into the game with a list pre-prepared to be 1 point over.

Now in any other situation, why couldn't you just make a list that fit under the limit? Its not hard, everyone else is doing it. What makes you so special that you can come into a store and play with a list (that I mention again, you had ample time to create) that is unlike everyone else's?

We've had some pretty good analogies pop up in this thread, so I'll go ahead and propose another:
Lets say you have a jar and bag of 20 jolly ranchers. You intrust both to your friend. You say, "Hey man, I'm gonna leave this jar with you. I just want you to fill it with exactly 20 jolly ranchers. When I get back, we can split them. All I want you to do is fill the thing. You have a week". You come back a week later, and you find 19 jolly ranchers in the jar. Of course whether or not 1 jolly rancher is missing is no big deal. The big deal is you gave your friend ONE job. One simple job. And he fethed it up. He had a whole week. Its not like filling up the damn jar was rocket science. So why couldn't he complete that one elementary task? It's incompetence. Pure and simple.

And honestly, there's no reason to excuse willful incompetence.

In a tournament i would not say not at all. Otherwise i guess i dont care.

One point is too many.

In a friendly game, I allow others a 5 point gap and myself usually zero points over. Of course, thats a friendly game, with people I enjoy. In serious competition, 0 points over and I allow myself 0 points over.

I disagree with a lot of the statements here. If you haven't got the models to fill out a set amount of points and model/squad X is 5 points too high, but you have them there....Surely thats better than proxying.

It dosent matter if the game is friendly or a tourny or whatever, if you agree to play 2k that means 2000 or less points.

So essentially if you don't have units to make up 2k points you are playing with 100+ points LESS than your opponent, rather than 5 more. I'm not advocating 50 points+, but in a friendly game, I am assuming that if you declared *I am 5 points over* and getting the nod would be alright. Rather than making the game less fun for both your opponent and yourself.

Tournament lists are more competitive and usually nit-picked to the last detail (actually my LOTR force was 10 points under and still won 3rd prize)

Doctadeth wrote: I'm not advocating 50 points+, but in a friendly game, I am assuming that if you declared *I am 5 points over* and getting the nod would be alright.

Everything depends on your reaction if you do not get the nod.

Doctadeth wrote:So essentially if you don't have units to make up 2k points

... don't try to play 2000 point games...

I'm not really seeing a situation where what you are describing would really be an issue though.

Just to put some perspective in place though... objecting to an opponent being 5 points over isn't dow to those 5 points making a big difference to the game. It's simply due to there having to be a limit, or there would be no reason to have points in the first place. And the best place to impose that limit is at the agreed upon limit.

If yoou need 3 points, drop a 5 point option to fit it in.
Or, you could drop a 15 point model from a unit, buy a 12 point model for another unit, and you're good.

There's never a need to buy something that cheap.
Any more than a couple of points needs a rethink.

Doctadeth wrote:So essentially if you don't have units to make up 2k points you are playing with 100+ points LESS than your opponent, rather than 5 more.

That seems unlikely. Most armies can drop a single trooper or piece of wargear to go from a few points over to a few points under.

(actually my LOTR force was 10 points under and still won 3rd prize)

A lot of people seem to think that we oppose being 5 points over because it's a big deal, or because 5 points is a significant part of an army. In fact, it's just the opposite - it's annoying to have your opponent go over the limit simply because it's so petty and unimportant. It's like someone cutting you off in traffic or butting in front of you in a long queue.

As stated before by quite a few posters, 0.

While I can see how a few points might be ok, and with a few of my close friends I would consider it. Over all it keeps me and (hopefully) my opponent honest as well.

The points limit, is the limit in my eyes. If you think that a few points over is not a big deal, then you can play a few points under and its still not a big deal then right?

I have had quite a few tournment experiences where people have showed up with 1852 lists, or 2002, and they couldn't comprehend why opponents were upset. Similarly, in 1 off games if you want to be over points put it out there in the open and allow your opponent to be so also.

However, typically a points limit, is just that, a limit for an agreed upon game. Someone reference the space marine example where if you can have a 10 man squad you get free special weapons options. That's my thoughts as well. I'm sure my Deffkoptas would really like to have free big bombs, but they don't.

njpc wrote:The points limit, is the limit in my eyes. If you think that a few points over is not a big deal, then you can play a few points under and its still not a big deal then right?

I have had quite a few tournment experiences where people have showed up with 1852 lists, or 2002, and they couldn't comprehend why opponents were upset. Similarly, in 1 off games if you want to be over points put it out there in the open and allow your opponent to be so also.

However, typically a points limit, is just that, a limit for an agreed upon game. Someone reference the space marine example where if you can have a 10 man squad you get free special weapons options. That's my thoughts as well. I'm sure my Deffkoptas would really like to have free big bombs, but they don't.

Agreed on all points.

insaniak wrote:We play SkipBo a lot at home. We don't take it seriously... We make up house rules, we spend a lot of time laughing about it all... but we would still object if someone just randomly decided that they were entitled to draw an extra card. However players decide to alter the game to suit themselves, and however well-written (or not) the game is, everybody has to be playing by the same rules.

This is a great way to put it! The 'fun house rules' that everyone agrees on are very different from 'surprise secret rules' than one person decides to isnert... And a sudden change in the point limits is the latter.

In actual play, if someone went over by 2 or 5 or even 10-50 points and asked politely I'd probably say yes as long as it wasn't a tournament-style situation. However, they'd have to ask every time, and I'd have an easy 'out' if they bragged about winning in this situation.


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Cryonicleech wrote:If my opponent is over by more than 2 points, I try to squeeze something in my list to make it even.

Like a Land Raider/Monolith/Titan? I think if someone habitually did this and was annoying about it, that's what I'd do: make sure the only extra model I had with me was something obnoxious and pull that out to even things up.

My goal is to always be within -5 points of he limit, but I will not go over. I will proxy instead if I need to in order to nerf a weapon to meet the points if I need to.

The points limit is the points limit. When list building there's a lot of times when you could take a bit more optimal unit with your last 150-200 points if you simply had 10 points or 5 points extra. You don't so you have to find some other way to design your list. I'm one of the guys who always has to have every army list at exactly 1500 or 1850 or 2000 points so that I feel I've used all my allowance. Some people prefer to take the units they want and if they're 4 or 3 points under they just leave it at that.

I have had quite a few tournment experiences where people have showed up with 1852 lists, or 2002

I don't really care if it's a friendly game or a tournament game if a list is over in points it has to be disqualified and not allowed for play. I don't even understand why anyone would ever want to field a list that is illegal. For example, I don't understand the argument that in friendly games it's not that important. Why would any of my friends want to play with an illegal list? Is this a cultural thing, like in some cultures it's okay to damage your car in traffic just a little bit so it's not that serious and nothing to get upset about? In non-competitive games I would of course allow the opponent to fix his list by removing a gun option or a model from some of his squads so that he's back under. In competitive games if the game was already over I'd ask for an automatic massacre victory from the referees.

At our club the points limit is exactly that.... a limit. Most codex will enable you to tweak your points by one or two points for small items. I developed an excell spreadsheet to calc my lists and allows me to quickly write a list and tweak it to the limit. See attached GK and Ork spreadsheets feel free to use them

I only think you should go over points if you and youre opponent are play testing certain combinations/mechanics. Prevents you from having to play two games to playtest a 5-25pt adjustment, when in honestly the game is just a test bed.

the limit is the limit. But if you do havge to go over let your opponent know so they can match if necessary

I will graciously allow my opponent to be over the points limit by 0.5

I only play friendly games with friends so im easy as long as they tell me first so i can add something to mine as well to adjust accordingly.
If it was competative however i would not allow anything over !

If you look at games such as Reapers' Warlord, you are forced to take a negative impact artifact of -3 pts if you are over the limit. So, there is simply no excuse for any player to go over.

Zero tolarance, even in friendly games, except when it's just to try some specific combo and that just won't work otherwise (though even then there should usually be a way to reduce something else).

The points limit is just that: the limit. It won't be too hard for anyone to come up with a list that fits in it.

kitch102 wrote:I always seem to go just over the points limit whilst list building, sometimes by as little as 5 points, sometimes by as much as 30. I always try to bring it down as much as possible ofcourse, I don't want to be seen as a cheat, though I couldn't help but wonder how much my fellow dakkanauts consider is too much? Has your opponent ever said "I've gone xx points over" and how have you reacted?

Random unknown people? 1 point is too many.

Friends I play with on a consistant basis? As long as they ask, I'll handwave upwards of 10pts. I might even do more, but at that point you can cut a full model out of somewhere.

Polonius wrote:Asking "how many points can I be over my list" is a litlte bit like asking "how much intimate contact counts as infidelity?"

The answer is always "zero, unless you're explicitly allowed more by an individual."

Likewise, saying, "well, you can add a few extra points to your list now" is kind of like telling your girlfriend "well, you can make out with one of my siblings."

This.

If I allow my opponent to go over, it's because I'm in a hurry, and they are very new or very incompetent. The subtext is "This is clearly not a real game, as you have chosen not to follow the rules, but I don't mind giving you an advantage because it's not going to change the end result.'

0 points over is my limit. I work out different combinations in my lists and if I'm 1 point over I recalculate everything. There are enough unit and upgrade choices in every Codex/Army Book to easily make a list at almost any point limit.

Another thing is if my opponent shows up with a list over the point limit, what other rules is he going to break and try to get away with?

"Oh, I'm 6.5" away from your Leman Russ. Can you spot me an extra 0.5" so I can roll 2D6 with my Meltagun for armour penetration?"

"My dice fell on the floor, but I rolled a 5 so I hit with my Power Fist. Look on the floor and see - it's a 5!"

Making an army list is one of the fundamental rules of the game. If you can't make one properly, what other parts of the game won't you be able to do?

Points limits are " as close as you can WITHOUT going over", Price is Right style.

When I play with my friends we usually make lists up on the fly before we play. As such, we'd rather not spend an enormous amount of time jiggling lists; we hit exactly or just under 1500 maybe 8 out of 10 times, and no one cares much if it's 1505 (with the understanding we're not aiming for 1505). It helps that these are friends I've known for years and no one really cares too much who wins; they are very casual affairs and I'm so much more into warhams then they are it's hardly worth it to be a jerk about it even if I were inclined, which I'm not. If someone comes up with a great list that's 1503, I'd rather just give an IC a meltabomb or whatever and get to playing.

If it's a tournament or I'm playing with Little Johnny I-Don't-Know-You, it's zero over since chances are these lists are created beforehand anyway.

5 points makes a huge difference when you are squeezing things in 1 more plasma pistol on a character is pretty good for 10 points 1 more melta for 10 points is great too even if oyu go from 1995 to 2005 you still got a free melta gun or maybe another sanctioned psyker for 10 points i mean its only 10 points right?

bottom line is over is over number are not hard we learned to count in like first grade

under is fine ive played at 990 and 995 even 970 when i was changing some stuff up to test and you know what thats ok since the max points was 1k does that mean ill complain that im short? absoulutly not but going over is never acceptable imo just makes no sense


EDDIT_if your at 1505 and i can take another plasma pistol in a friendly game thats ok since then your point limit is 1505 but then again no ones over at that point then so its irrelevant

0 points over is acceptable.

When two people agree upon a points limit, both should have enough respect to make their list equal to or less than the agreed upon limit.

1 point over is breaking the agreement, and disrespecting your opponent.

If you are over, it should be no big deal to drop something to make your list come in at or under the agreed upon points limit, and this should be done well before you are about to deploy.

I make lists that come to the points limit without going over. Then I tweak them and re-make them to shuffle things around without going over the limit that we have agreed upon.

If I am expected to make a list at or below the limit we have agreed upon, then I ask my opponent to adhere to the agreement as well.

victor.IG wrote:5 points makes a huge difference when you are squeezing things in 1 more plasma pistol on a character is pretty good for 10 points 1 more melta for 10 points is great too even if oyu go from 1995 to 2005 you still got a free melta gun or maybe another sanctioned psyker for 10 points i mean its only 10 points right?

bottom line is over is over number are not hard we learned to count in like first grade

As Ouze said, if you're simply with a few friends killing the afternoon, as long as you're not aiming for 1505, it's not worth the hassle. My group of friends is much like his. We aim for whatever limit we set. If someone hits 1505, we just throw an extra upgrade on a character and have the game. It's honestly not worth the hassle, or the time, which generally means that person will want to go and rework a significant portion of their list, which takes more time from rolling dice and having a laugh. Not every game is in a tournament.

Depends if it is in my FLGS and it is 5 points over i ask what it is. If it is a scything talon on a gaunt that i am gonna kill anyway sure do it. But if it is for a hierordule i will refuse.
But this is the only store in the province. So if you build up a bad reputation because of too much nitpicking you wont get any games.

For our group, its friendly in the basement. Lists are rarely made ahead of time. As such, both players are generally making lists at about the same time. Our limit is generally 10 points. The basic assumption is that you let the other person know if your over, and he finds the bonus points, or asks you to drop.

Its friendly, so nobody gets stressed by such a thing.

One point. Anything over an agreed upon limit is too much. It's that simple.

It's a points limit.
1 point over is 1 point to many.

0.

A limit is a limit for a reason.

If they want to tell me an hour or two beforehand, I'll gladly tailor my list to the new point limit, but not when they spring it at the last minute.

Usually for me it comes down to not wanting to wait while they re-jig a list.

I always give a tolerance of 5 points, but with the caveat of that 5 points is only allowed if (and only if) removing the points would result in a major list change.

e.g. If you are at 1000pts, and the 5pts pays for eavy armour on a nob in a boyz mob, then that 5 points must go I'm afraid.

If, however, losing that 5 points means one of your 2 troops choices is not below the minimum number of models in a unit, so now you have to remove the whole unit, or work out what to drop from another unit to take the original unit etc etc etc, then I'll let 5pts slide because my gaming time is short, and I would really rather play a 1005pt list than sit around for another 10 mins while you re-jig your list entirely.

Of course, anything where there has been plenty of time to prepare and/or tournaments/campaigns/etc then tolerance is 0

I used to be ok with just a few points over but I then changed my mind. When I schedule a game to be played on a certain date I will make my list a week or more before to give myself time to tweak things or to get as close to the pre-determined points value as possible. (I am constantly making lists though for hypothetical games and just to try things out)

I would show up on game-day and my friend wouldn't have even started his list, thereby adding another hour or so to the game time, and when he was done ask if I was ok with him being over the limit. This got way too annoying after a while and it got to the point where I was leaving without even playing if my opponent showed up without a list. Do your homework and be prepared.

Perhaps this is too strict but I like my casual games to be like my tournament games: set up and done in about 2 hours. Ten years ago when I was just learning the hobby it wasn't unheard of for a gaming session to take 6 hours and fun was had by all but I just don't like this anymore.

I'm going to make up a T-shirt that says: if you want me to be alright with 5 points then you can be alright with my free HPA.

I'm tolerant with my opponents, but I never go over the points limit. - I agree with the many posters who stick to the idea that the limit is the limit.

However there was this one time I was putting together a 1750 pt list from two 1500pt lists I had written out. - After the game I was congratulating myself for managing a draw against the blood angels when I realized I was 250points over! OMG! I never told my opponent as I was too embarrassed! (It was a good, fun game though)

I think even one point is too much. I hold to the limits of the points. I would like my opponent to do the same. So far I haven't played someone who went over yet.

My group's games are generally scheduled a week ahead, so there is no excuse for showing up over the limit (which no one does).

If my opponent has more than 5 minutes to write his list, then it should be under the points limit.
If you wrote your list in advance, and are still over the points limit... I get one re-roll during the game for every point that you're over.

Not one point over.

Otherwise, what's the point of a 'limit' if you just go over it?

For every point you go over, I'll go 500pts over.
Why can't I?
Go over by one, or by 500, either way breaks the limit.
If we're not playing with a limit, you can go play apocapoxyclips over there by yourself (I got tired of games that size over 15 years ago).

Ouze wrote:When I play with my friends we usually make lists up on the fly before we play. As such, we'd rather not spend an enormous amount of time jiggling lists; we hit exactly or just under 1500 maybe 8 out of 10 times, and no one cares much if it's 1505 (with the understanding we're not aiming for 1505). It helps that these are friends I've known for years and no one really cares too much who wins; they are very casual affairs and I'm so much more into warhams then they are it's hardly worth it to be a jerk about it even if I were inclined, which I'm not. If someone comes up with a great list that's 1503, I'd rather just give an IC a meltabomb or whatever and get to playing.

If it's a tournament or I'm playing with Little Johnny I-Don't-Know-You, it's zero over since chances are these lists are created beforehand anyway.

This. So exactly this that I can't really add anything else, just agreement.

If you coordinate a game and set a "POINT LIMIT" then one point over is unacceptable. If you coordinate a game and set a "POINT SUGGESTION" then anything goes. You can be one or 500 points over and no one can complain.

Even one point is too much.

If I've made the effort to stick to the limit we agreed to, then it's rude and cheap for you not to do the same.

Friendly games with clubmates, up to 15 points or even more is fine. If you check ahead of time.

Pickup games at the FLGS. Even 1 point is too much. Respect your opponents. Far better to show up with a slightly short list than to assume it will be ok. Simply by suggesting it, you pressure your opponents into accepting your points overage because no one wants to be "that guy". Don't do it.

None.
Same as ever.

If it is "only x points" then "only" drop x points.
If you think the points don't matter, it should not matter to you to remove them.

Breaking the first agreement in a game is a bad way to say you are wanting a "friendly" game.
I do not consider broken contracts agreements friendly.

You agreed to play with x or less, then brought more than that. Why am I being put in the position of potentially coming across as rude (or accused of it anyway) because you want to break your word?
No thanks. I will play someone else.

Editing to add the obvious:
If you want to play a 1583 point game, say so.
We do and play that way often.
It can be fun to make a list with awkward values just to mess with people.

Just ask your opponent if he/she is alright with you exceeding the limits.

I'm sorry but a single point is too much. You must be at or below a points limit, unless it's a friendly game and your opponent agrees, but at the same time you MUST try to reach your points limit. If it means taking off a piece of wargear, then do it.

The comparison to measuring that some people have made is a good one. Just like even in a casual game I wouldn't say it's okay to be sloppy and intentionally go too far when moving model.

"Fine, so I will add 'only one' model."

*places Heirophant*