So something just occurred to me. Is there a distinctive martial art/combatives system that the SM use? Or are they just straight brawling? I call upon thee, denizens of Dakka! Provide me the forbidden fluff that I seek!
TermiesInARaider wrote:So something just occurred to me. Is there a distinctive martial art/combatives system that the SM use? Or are they just straight brawling? I call upon thee, denizens of Dakka! Provide me the forbidden fluff that I seek!
I'm not sure what the name for it is, but I think its just the generic form of h2h training they give to modern soldiers now-a-days.
If you want, you could have a look at the game Space Marine. It's a fairly decent portrayal of how a marine fights in close combat.
Extremely unlikely. 40,000 years into the future, I'm pretty sure genetically engineered super-warriors would have access to something better. Nevermind the fact that Krav Maga has no provisions for things such as, say, powerfists? Chainswords? Lightning Claws?
I'm sorry. It's just silly to say something like that.
I would say what ever it is, it is something that evolved from a military form, but has more then likely changed over the years to better fit a SM's body.
Amaya wrote:About as silly as your question. What, do you expect Space Marines to practice Tai Chi or something?
Obviously not. I was simply asking if there's any mention, be it in the Black Library books, or anywhere else, of any structured fighting system. You don't assume they just hand the Marines a chainsword and say 'swing it', do you?
Well if they have H2H training, it is going to incorperate many of the higher forms of martial art on earth today. For instance, a marine who favors a two handed sword, would most likely find himself training in something similar to how no-dai-chi samurai trained, or even sword fighting styles found in fuedal knight training. If he wielded a single handed weapon, again it would reflect training practices found on earth today. Such as fencing perhaps? And so on and so forth. And I would imagine a marines training would always take advantage of their superhuman strength and reflexes
As well, it probably varies from chapter to chapter and so on. It would also focus on the preferred weapon on the individual or the chapter.
Even now, various militaries have wildly different cc styles, ethos and training.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Well if they have H2H training, it is going to incorperate many of the higher forms of martial art on earth today. For instance, a marine who favors a two handed sword, would most likely find himself training in something similar to how no-dai-chi samurai trained, or even sword fighting styles found in fuedal knight training. If he wielded a single handed weapon, again it would reflect training practices found on earth today. Such as fencing perhaps? And so on and so forth. And I would imagine a marines training would always take advantage of their superhuman strength and reflexes
There we go, something productive!
I like the parallels you're drawing, but I think most modern fencing styles are too dainty to take advantage of SM augmentations. When I think of your standard chainsword, I generally think of a heavy saber. I'm reminded of the civil war, when officers would take a saber and a revolver into battle.
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Lightcavalier wrote:As well, it probably varies from chapter to chapter and so on. It would also focus on the preferred weapon on the individual or the chapter.
Even now, various militaries have wildly different cc styles, ethos and training.
Well, with different weapons, different techniques need to be applied, that's true, but within compliance with the Codex Astartes, I'd imagine there'd be relatively little variancy in overall combat doctrine. The Crimson Fists are going to be using their chainswords the same way that the Sons of Orar are, I'd imagine. Just my two cents, but I'd imagine that'd be something the codex would cover.
My guess is each chapter has its own thing, UM might have something like Greco-Roman wrestling, DA might have some fancy swordplay, White Scars might be more like eastern martial arts.
On a realistic standpoint I am sure there is a form of martial arts. Not all SM have power swords, fists etc... They have to be trained with out them first then get additional training how to use their swords, fists or what ever.
What if a SM becomes unarmed? His martial arts skills that he likely knows will come into play then.
usmcmidn wrote:On a realistic standpoint I am sure there is a form of martial arts. Not all SM have power swords, fists etc... They have to be trained with out them first then get additional training how to use their swords, fists or what ever.
What if a SM becomes unarmed? His martial arts skills that he likely knows will come into play then.
This. That's what I'm talking about when I say combatives. The motto of the martial arts system in the US Marine Corps is One Mind, Any Weapon. A combatives system is a unified fighting method that can apply force ranging from empty-handed combat, knives, sticks, guns, ect.
usmcmidn wrote:On a realistic standpoint I am sure there is a form of martial arts. Not all SM have power swords, fists etc... They have to be trained with out them first then get additional training how to use their swords, fists or what ever.
What if a SM becomes unarmed? His martial arts skills that he likely knows will come into play then.
This.
This is precisely when their Krav Maga skills come into play.
Did knights in the middle ages have a standard fighting style? Because marines would most likely train in a technique to go up against armour and power armour.
Amaya wrote:No, I don't even think there is a thought out fighting style for the Marines.
I'd imagine it's something similar to what the US Marines developed but with less compliance/submission techniques, lol. A fighting style designed to be performed at close quarters, while wearing bulky armor, taking advantage of the weight, reach, and bulk of the Marine, and incorporating their various weaponry.
I mean, it's not going to be especially crazy or sophisticated. Just like with warfare and the Codex Astartes, the basics won't have changed too much. It will just have techniques for the more unique weapons the Marines use (Power weapons, fists, chainswords, pistols, etc).
Actually I think the Krav Maga's pretty spot on...
Not exactly it but, similar to.
Unless a SM's trying to toy with their opponents (more a CSM thing), they're goal is to basically kill quickly and efficiently with whatever they have on hand, aiming for soft points and aiming for places that'll kill quickly.
That's my perspective for the general SM populace... but hey, different planets different styles right?
I think most marine fighting would be very heavy handed, they are 8 foot tall monsters in power armour, they won't hop around punching you, they will probably grab your arm with their super human reflexes when you try to punch them, bend it until you hear a horrifying crack or pop, punch you in the face and curb stomp your head in case you are alive.
Buttons wrote:I think most marine fighting would be very heavy handed, they are 8 foot tall monsters in power armour, they won't hop around punching you, they will probably grab your arm with their super human reflexes when you try to punch them, bend it until you hear a horrifying crack or pop, punch you in the face and curb stomp your head in case you are alive.
Spot on. The power armor that enhances their strenght also limits what their limbs can do - they're not going to pull off fancy Van Damme jump kicks (although jump infantry might land on you). They'll be using their weight and sheer strength.
I'd imagine that each chapter would have its own unique martial art.
Imperial Fists and their decendents practice a unique style that uses a short sword as its focus.
Their practices certaintly won't resemble anything we have today. Given 38,000 years of change nothing's going to be much like it used to be. In the last century there have been dozens and dozens of different versions of the various martial arts pop up.
Marine styles will probably resemble MMA more then a specific artistic form. It is supposed to be practical afterall. Judo isn't going to do all that much for you in an all out brawl with various stabby and thumpy things whirling around, having experience with a folding chair will.
purplefood wrote:A melee fighting style in 40k would probably be something we could predict however it probably doesn't exist right now...
Eldar Aspect Warriors seem to have a pretty refined but brutal hand-to-hand combat method complete with named techniques and stances and so on. Path of the Warrior goes into them. Can penetrate peoples skulls with your fingers, rip out someones heart, snap necks with your feet, all the fun stuff.
The full and complete Space Marine Hand-to-Hand Training Manual.
1. Do you have a close combat weapon such as a chainsword, power claws, power fist?
Yes: Use it to sword/klaw/fist the enemy into a bloody mist.
No: Proceed to step 2.
2. You have a bolter, then.
Yes: Use it to shoot your enemies until they're within arms reach.
3. Are they within arms reach?
Yes: Punch them in the face with your off hand while shooting from the hip with your bolter.
4. Are they dead?
Yes: Good job! Go kill more xenos and heretics for the Emprah!
No: Continue punching until they are!
Legions had different styles of combat. Some emphasized minimalist precision (Ultras), others used knightly traditions (Imperial Fists, Dark Angels), others used the savage warrior culture of their recruiting planet (White Scars, Space Wolves), others were brutal psychopaths (Night Lords, World Eaters), and some were ninjas (Raven Guard).
I also think it varies from chapter to chapter. At least the legions had varying styles of H2H combat that they practiced with.
Potential spoiler for Deliverance Lost:
Spoiler:
In the book, the Alpha Legion warrior that had infiltrated the Raven Guard was doing combat training with the RG squad leader. While sparing he was not paying attention and got the drop on the leader by using a combat style that was not employed by the RG. Everybody was staring at him and the leader was asking him where he picked up this particular style because it is not something the RG taught.
I imagine that it would be to cause maximum trauma or instant death without the use of much energy or exertion. Every move a killing blow. Only when fighting opponents of equal ability would you get a true technique shine through. Much like the battle between Praal and Lucius in Galaxy in Flames.
A technique would also possibly be modified depending on foes battled, like Lucius, again, fighting the Mega - Arachnid on Murder in Horus Rising.
But like's been said before the fighting style would vary between the Legion/Chapter.
Even marines within different legions/chapters had varying skilsl and styles.
it is mentioned in several books how this marine or this captain favoured one weaon over another or showed "a brutal effiicency" rather than a "delicate use of a blade".
i woudl guess that marines woudl receive the same basic training and woudl then develope their own personal styles over centuries of war.
Praxiss wrote:Even marines within different legions/chapters had varying skilsl and styles.
it is mentioned in several books how this marine or this captain favoured one weaon over another or showed "a brutal effiicency" rather than a "delicate use of a blade".
i woudl guess that marines woudl receive the same basic training and woudl then develope their own personal styles over centuries of war.
This. I'd say that this is the most likely outcome. Even with standardized basic training, after all that time you're going to get some variance in individual preferences.
VarguardObrien wrote:The full and complete Space Marine Hand-to-Hand Training Manual.
1. Do you have a close combat weapon such as a chainsword, power claws, power fist?
Yes: Use it to sword/klaw/fist the enemy into a bloody mist.
No: Proceed to step 2.
2. You have a bolter, then.
Yes: Use it to shoot your enemies until they're within arms reach.
3. Are they within arms reach?
Yes: Punch them in the face with your off hand while shooting from the hip with your bolter.
4. Are they dead?
Yes: Good job! Go kill more xenos and heretics for the Emprah!
No: Continue punching until they are!
This about sums up the basics
As above, it would depend upon the chapter and individual in question, basic techniques would be taught and the individual marines develop it with their own experiences and preferences.
I would presume its just generic "unarmed combat" come guy developed (Gulliman?) because they aren't going to use Kung-Fu or Judo from 39,000 years in the past are they!
I mean, thats what elite soliders use now. feth all that Jackie Chan gak!
For example, in the RM they teach CQC (Close quarters combat) that was developed by Fairburn and Sykes, they developed it while working as bobbies in Shanghai and Its super badass, but nothing like anything you saw on the matrix. It typically consists of ripping peoples balls off and gouging their fething eyes out. Nothing fancy.. I remember from all the lessons, something to do with how enemies/hostages/civilians and such can be closely intermingled so they developed their own CQC which basically just consists of an extremely rapid assault and a precise application of lethal force. They also invented the commando dagger, and the style you use to kill with it. This thing..
Anyway, the point is, killers learn different gak to the stuff civvies get taught in Martial arts. Your not interested in defending yourself in a pub brawl, your after bursting peoples eyeballs, ripping their balls off and snapping their bones.
I figure that Gulliman would have developed an awesome version of CQC and wrote it all down. You know how he liked to do things by the book.
mattyrm wrote:I think people think about this stuff too much.
I would presume its just generic "unarmed combat" come guy developed (Gulliman?) because they aren't going to use Kung-Fu or Judo from 39,000 years in the past are they!
I mean, thats what elite soliders use now. feth all that Jackie Chan gak!
For example, in the RM they teach CQC (Close quarters combat) that was developed by Fairburn and Sykes, they developed it while working as bobbies in Shanghai and Its super badass, but nothing like anything you saw on the matrix. It typically consists of ripping peoples balls off and gouging their fething eyes out. Nothing fancy.. I remember from all the lessons, something to do with how enemies/hostages/civilians and such can be closely intermingled so they developed their own CQC which basically just consists of an extremely rapid assault and a precise application of lethal force. They also invented the commando dagger, and the style you use to kill with it. This thing..
Anyway, the point is, killers learn different gak to the stuff civvies get taught in Martial arts. Your not interested in defending yourself in a pub brawl, your after bursting peoples eyeballs, ripping their balls off and snapping their bones.
I figure that Gulliman would have developed an awesome version of CQC and wrote it all down. You know how he liked to do things by the book.
This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.
This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.
Im impressed someone outside of the Royal Marines knows who he is! Although, I notice your flag.. did you get shown some of his stuff during some time in the IDF?
This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.
Im impressed someone outside of the Royal Marines knows who he is! Although, I notice your flag.. did you get shown some of his stuff during some time in the IDF?
Nah, I'm just here studying abroad for college. I am a bit of a self-defense buff, though, and I've read a few books about him.
This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.
Im impressed someone outside of the Royal Marines knows who he is! Although, I notice your flag.. did you get shown some of his stuff during some time in the IDF?
Nah, I'm just here studying abroad for college. I am a bit of a self-defense buff, though, and I've read a few books about him.
Ah ok cool.. you must be well read!
Although, less cool than I thought, in my own mind you were in Mossad and you had once punched a suicide bombers lungs out.
This. Nobody is talking about a whole Matrix, I know kung fu, dojo style hoplah. On a side-note, William E. Fairbairn is the most unappreciated hardass in human history.
Im impressed someone outside of the Royal Marines knows who he is! Although, I notice your flag.. did you get shown some of his stuff during some time in the IDF?
Nah, I'm just here studying abroad for college. I am a bit of a self-defense buff, though, and I've read a few books about him.
Ah ok cool.. you must be well read!
Although, less cool than I thought, in my own mind you were in Mossad and you had once punched a suicide bombers lungs out.
Hah, no! I wish. The closest I've come to that is punching out a pair of dudes who were looking for more booze money.
I did indeed read it, which is what prompted me to track down and read a book on him.
Back on topic, I think we can agree that the Space Marines would utilize some form of 'modern' combat system, similar to MCMAP, Krav Maga, Defendo, or one of their many derivations.
Tibbsy wrote:Matty, Mr. Fairbairn recently got a badass of the week article which you might be interested in reading...
Potentially NSFW due to copious swearing
I did find that interesting. Thanks!
I figured Bill was pretty unknown outside the RM.. shows what I know eh?
I've still got my commando dagger obviously.. and I always got my American counterparts one for a present when I worked with them for a lengthy period of time, so there will be plenty floating around in the States, just waiting to get jammed into a burglars jugular.
OT- As I said, I reckon it would be good fluff if Gulliman devised one and makes perfect sense. Surely he would have taught something and wrote it down? I read ATSKNF and he seems right on the ball.. practised with obscure weapons, taught the guys how to fight with all kinda of different things.. it would be cool to add something about it.
Ill write to Dan Abnett, he can introduce is, call it Gullimando or something.
I figured Bill was pretty unknown outside the RM.. shows what I know eh?
I've still got my commando dagger obviously.. and I always got my American counterparts one for a present when I worked with them for a lengthy period of time, so there will be plenty floating around in the States, just waiting to get jammed into a burglars jugular.
OT- As I said, I reckon it would be good fluff if Gulliman devised one and makes perfect sense. Surely he would have taught something and wrote it down? I read ATSKNF and he seems right on the ball.. practised with obscure weapons, taught the guys how to fight with all kinda of different things.. it would be cool to add something about it.
Ill write to Dan Abnett, he can introduce is, call it Gullimando or something.
I wanna thank you personally for serving. I don't know what you did, but I have an uncle in Marine Recon, so who knows? Maybe you saved his ass a few times. Either way, thanks.
Nothing for nothing, I'd love to read a perspective of a SM as he goes through augmentation and training. I just finished Eisenhorn, so if Dan EVER puts out something like that, I'd read it in a heartbeat.
I wanna thank you personally for serving. I don't know what you did, but I have an uncle in Marine Recon, so who knows? Maybe you saved his ass a few times. Either way, thanks.
Nothing for nothing, I'd love to read a perspective of a SM as he goes through augmentation and training. I just finished Eisenhorn, so if Dan EVER puts out something like that, I'd read it in a heartbeat.
Dont have to thank me, I joined cos I really really wanted to. The Luxor tourist massacre gave me a lust for war, there was nothing selfless or noble about it.
Regards the books, I recommend ATSKNF definitely, Abnett is the best writer, and there is quite alot of talk about training and tactics. I enjoyed it alot anyway.
The book, Sons of Dorn, has the perspective of an Imperial Fist as he is selected and goes through training. Its pretty good, although I'm sure Dan would do an even more awsome job.
The book, Sons of Dorn, has the perspective of an Imperial Fist as he is selected and goes through training. Its pretty good, although I'm sure Dan would do an even more awsome job.
three fists IIRC each chosen because of their skill witha sword but each from a differnt planetary faction with a different style. One's a space samurai, ones a Renaissance style fighter and the last is a tribes man.
I don't think there is a standard,but if there is one I bet it's brutalbrutal. If we are talking martial arts we're not talking kun-fu we're talking UFC.
From what I've read at best it differs from chapter to chapter but there is still variation within the chapter. I imagine marine are allowed to pursue martial perfection in there own way.
The book, Sons of Dorn, has the perspective of an Imperial Fist as he is selected and goes through training. Its pretty good, although I'm sure Dan would do an even more awsome job.
three fists IIRC each chosen because of their skill witha sword but each from a differnt planetary faction with a different style. One's a space samurai, ones a Renaissance style fighter and the last is a tribes man.
I don't think there is a standard,but if there is one I bet it's brutalbrutal. If we are talking martial arts we're not talking kun-fu we're talking UFC.
From what I've read at best it differs from chapter to chapter but there is still variation within the chapter. I imagine marine are allowed to pursue martial perfection in there own way.
Grey Templar wrote:Imperial Fists and their decendents practice a unique style that uses a short sword as its focus.
Omegus wrote:Legions had different styles of combat. Some emphasized minimalist precision (Ultras), others used knightly traditions (Imperial Fists, Dark Angels)
Mr Nobody wrote:Did knights in the middle ages have a standard fighting style? Because marines would most likely train in a technique to go up against armour and power armour.
From the 14th century onward there are records of standardised fighting schools, particularly in what will later become Germany and Italy. Talhoffer and Fiori dei Liberi are 2 examples giving recommended move and counter move for a variety of weapons from knives up to pole-arms as well as unarmed combat. Fencing isn't really a battlefield combat drill, being more designed for 17th and 18th century fops to stab each other to death with
It should be noted that weapon design and usage have changed throughout history as armour has developed to counter the weapons, which then change to counter the armour. Its a bit anacronistic to assume that future close combat weapons will be anything like modern and historical ones, but I guess a pointy stick is a pretty universal weapon and there are a limited number of ways that a human can swing a big metal bar
I tend to refer to it as "Panzerfaust", based on a martial arts style from another RPG that was designed for full-borg conversions and huge dudes in huge power armor suits.
It translates into "Armored Fist" in the usage from that game.
I'd have thought with all that superhuman strength and diamond edged chainswords they'd really just swing, punch and kick their way through hand-to-hand. Then again, in HH they mention that they train for close quarters a lot, but in other sources, notably DoW and the little intro bit of the previous SM codex, it indicates that they just 'beast it'. I mean the guys on DoW aren't exactly the most skilled swordsmen, while in the intro part of the previous SM codex it says the character simply rolls on top of nids to crush them, and crushes their heads with his hand. Pretty straight forward by the sounds of it (DoW as a legitimate source can be questioned, but even in the more recent SM game, again a questionable source for some, the strokes are pretty direct, with some a bit fancier but still).
Banzaimash wrote:I'd have thought with all that superhuman strength and diamond edged chainswords they'd really just swing, punch and kick their way through hand-to-hand. Then again, in HH they mention that they train for close quarters a lot, but in other sources, notably DoW and the little intro bit of the previous SM codex, it indicates that they just 'beast it'. I mean the guys on DoW aren't exactly the most skilled swordsmen, while in the intro part of the previous SM codex it says the character simply rolls on top of nids to crush them, and crushes their heads with his hand. Pretty straight forward by the sounds of it (DoW as a legitimate source can be questioned, but even in the more recent SM game, again a questionable source for some, the strokes are pretty direct, with some a bit fancier but still).
I was thinking the same thing. Their style seems to be "hit really hard" and I think that was a very deliberate choice. If you showed a SM using a agile style like fencing, it wouldn't look right. They are big and in big armor they are like walking tanks. Also a a few of their weapons can only be used brute force style.
Just because they are big doesn't mean they are clunky. They are always described as being incredibly agile and dexterous, even to the point of being a blurr of motion when fighting.
The Speed and Skill of a Ninja merged with the brute force only a Super-human Demigod can bring. Absolute terror!
Grey Templar wrote:Don't discount marines being agile.
Just because they are big doesn't mean they are clunky. They are always described as being incredibly agile and dexterous, even to the point of being a blurr of motion when fighting.
The Speed and Skill of a Ninja merged with the brute force only a Super-human Demigod can bring. Absolute terror!
It just dosen't compute with me. They can write the word agile over and over, but it's really hard to picture a SM as agile. One of the reasons I place the games over the books is that they have to show you how things look. That makes it a lot easier to picture.
i would imagine SM CQC with or without weapons would be all about large aplications of force used with presision.
after all. a SM is a 8 foot tall walking tank. they wouldn't be exactly subtle when it comes to punching an ork/tau/eldarwhatevers face in.
while its a game (and the canon is iffy at best) the game Space Marine would be a close assumption of SM CQC, sheer force and brutality combined with pin point attacks ( best way to lop a nids head of is strike at X spinal joint etc etc), other chapters would likly have variations on the combat style.
They won't be doing anythign fancy but they will get the job done and leave a bloody mess behind.
If the Dawn of War intro videos are anything to go by, they seem to be pretty much just swinging angrily in large, sweeping motions...
I seriously doubt that's the case though. If they're supposed to have WS4 (which seems to correspond to significantly better than a well-trained human), then I would imagine they are highly skilled in multiple forms of blade and unarmed combat.
I would be particularly interested to see the 'pistol and sword' techniques they use i melee as I can't really think of anything modern that really corresponds.
I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"
Exalted Pariah wrote:I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"
Exactly. Half of these descriptions of what people are picturing is very much like Krav Maga.
Im sure they have a system theyre taught as initiates. Like the us marines hafe mcmap. But come on were talking about space marines 40000 years in the future, unless there is a reference i dont think we can really know. It always mentions them fighting the training bots.
Brother Thomas wrote:Im sure they have a system theyre taught as initiates. Like the us marines hafe mcmap. But come on were talking about space marines 40000 years in the future, unless there is a reference i dont think we can really know. It always mentions them fighting the training bots.
Come to think of it, I think we're looking at this the wrong way.
Assuming there is some kind of standard fighting system, it would be a safe assumption that it would be in the Codex Astartes. Well, think of when the codex was written? Before the Tyranids, before (I think) the Necrons. And the Imperium had just come out of the Horus Heresy. Considering who the biggest threat at the time was, the traitor legions, it wouldn't be too off to see a little more finesse in those techniques. Not to the level of Kung-Fu Hustle, Matrix bullet-time silliness, but still. I do think a good parallel, if we're making real-life comparisons, would be MCMAP, as opposed to Krav Maga. Brutal. Efficient. But by no means simplistic.
TermiesInARaider wrote:Assuming there is some kind of standard fighting system, it would be a safe assumption that it would be in the Codex Astartes. Well, think of when the codex was written? Before the Tyranids, before (I think) the Necrons. And the Imperium had just come out of the Horus Heresy. Considering who the biggest threat at the time was, the traitor legions, it wouldn't be too off to see a little more finesse in those techniques. Not to the level of Kung-Fu Hustle, Matrix bullet-time silliness, but still. I do think a good parallel, if we're making real-life comparisons, would be MCMAP, as opposed to Krav Maga. Brutal. Efficient. But by no means simplistic.
Still, probably no jump kicks or fancy finishing moves. The sheer bulk of power armor should give a marine the power he needs to get the better of any lesser opponent, and an opposing marine has all that bulk himself. Probably straight-up brutal offense against anyone squishy and a somewhat more defensive style in wait of a counter-attack opportunity vs tougher opponents.
Brother Thomas wrote:Im sure they have a system theyre taught as initiates. Like the us marines hafe mcmap. But come on were talking about space marines 40000 years in the future, unless there is a reference i dont think we can really know. It always mentions them fighting the training bots.
Come to think of it, I think we're looking at this the wrong way.
Assuming there is some kind of standard fighting system, it would be a safe assumption that it would be in the Codex Astartes. Well, think of when the codex was written? Before the Tyranids, before (I think) the Necrons. And the Imperium had just come out of the Horus Heresy. Considering who the biggest threat at the time was, the traitor legions, it wouldn't be too off to see a little more finesse in those techniques. Not to the level of Kung-Fu Hustle, Matrix bullet-time silliness, but still. I do think a good parallel, if we're making real-life comparisons, would be MCMAP, as opposed to Krav Maga. Brutal. Efficient. But by no means simplistic.
I agree. And it wouldnt be too much to assume theyre good martial artists, every time i read about combat in a space marine book i always hear about there quickness and finesse that belies there hulking forms
Exalted Pariah wrote:I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"
Exactly. Half of these descriptions of what people are picturing is very much like Krav Maga.
I actually have to doubt that, marines aren't exactly pragmatic and generally are based off of a fictional or real group, and thus might sacrifice pragmaticism for the sake of story or tradition. For example, UM being based off of Rome might use something like Greco-Roman wrestling, the White Scars might instead use something more like an oriental traditional martial art (do Mongols have any particular martial arts?), SW might use something more like dirty street fighting, they punch, they bite, they kick, they get you in choke holds, and Raptors and Mentors being more pragmatic might use something like Krav Maga except focused much more on pure strength and speed.
As for how the pragmatic fighting would be, it would be nothing like Krav Maga, I just used it as a pragmatic example. Marines only care about killing as quickly as possible and they have massive size and reflexes. Odds are a marine against an Ork or guardsman would involve punching or tossing them to the ground, stomping them, and continuing on. Against bigger opponents they might use something more like existing martial arts. Also, I imagine that most marines have an affinity for snapping spines since both Russ and Sanguinus snap an enemy's spine during the Horus Heresy (Magnus and a Blood Thirster respectively).
I'm still going with Batman from the Arkham games. Just take out most of the flipping and flying kicks, and you're left with bone-crunching, powerhouse punches, headbutts, ground kicks, throws and general MMA bad-assery.
Wouldn't they have multiple forms for different opponents?
For example, against traitor guard they would have a style based on quickly moving from one target to the next, as each of their strikes would likely incapacitate if not kill the guardsman target, and so they would need to focus on striking the most opponents in the least amount of time.
If they were fighting Eldar they would switch to a different form which allows for defensive action until the Eldar opponent over-extended itself or made itself vulnerable somehow. The art would then also teach how to either 1) kill the Eldar with a single strike, or 2) how to significantly decrease its combat abilities in case the oppurtunity for a fatal blow isn't availible.
And of course there would be some sort of combat training for dealing with traitor astartes of all stripes.
The idea is that to assume there is only one style is ignoring the sheer variety of threats astartes have to face. Hope my theory makes sense
Ok so first of all, SM are all about shock and awe, so big, showy moves are likely to be used to intimidate the enemy (thinking like in the finishing moves in the game)
But surely their style would depend on the enemy they're up against: there are tyranid fighting doctrines and stuff, and against other Marines they'd be going for armour joints.
Chapter based though, As a rough outline I'd say:
Space wolves - Gotta be some brutal viking style hack n' slash. But still very skilled.
Ultramarines - Finessed, efficient, as noticed by Honsou in "the heraclitus effect" short story.
Blood Angels - Graceful, but very bloody,
Dark Angels - Knightly, medieval style,
White scars - Speed but also fluid motions and more sweeping, slashing blows rather than point work.
Raven guard - Speed, fluidity, brutally efficient.
Salamanders - I actually find it hard to picture a salamander in CC...
Imperial fists - based on medieval/reneissance swordplay IIRC Iron hands - honestly no idea, I'd assume quite like the UM, pretty basic and as efficient as possible.
That's what I'd imagine it to be, as a sweeping generalisation, and obviously it'd vary according to the Individual.
Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Ok so first of all, SM are all about shock and awe, so big, showy moves are likely to be used to intimidate the enemy (thinking like in the finishing moves in the game)
But surely their style would depend on the enemy they're up against: there are tyranid fighting doctrines and stuff, and against other Marines they'd be going for armour joints.
Chapter based though, As a rough outline I'd say:
Salamanders - I actually find it hard to picture a salamander in CC...
Me too, but with the whole artisan smithing culture, I'd think more brutal heavy hitting moves, wasn't it Vulkan and Manus tied for the two strongest primarchs?
Exalted Pariah wrote:I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"
...along with every other practical martial art that has ever existed, from unarmed hand-to-hand to the 'civil' rapier fencing*, and everything inbetween. All 'martial arts' exist for a reason - to be able to put an enemy down as quickly as possible but primarily to keep you alive. Then there are obviously martial arts with secondary & tertiary objectives, such as keeping you in formation with other people practising the same means of fighting so that you're one unit, but generally learning a martial art is a means of staying alive & quickly making sure your opponent doesn't.
*I say civil, but c16/c17 Italian rapier could be a damned dirty way to fight at times.
Exalted Pariah wrote:I second the Krav Maga motion, obviously not move-for-move, but the general area of "least amount of movement for maxium, ruthless damage infliction" fits to a "T"
...along with every other practical martial art that has ever existed, from unarmed hand-to-hand to the 'civil' rapier fencing*, and everything inbetween. All 'martial arts' exist for a reason - to be able to put an enemy down as quickly as possible but primarily to keep you alive. Then there are obviously martial arts with secondary & tertiary objectives, such as keeping you in formation with other people practising the same means of fighting so that you're one unit, but generally learning a martial art is a means of staying alive & quickly making sure your opponent doesn't.
*I say civil, but c16/c17 Italian rapier could be a damned dirty way to fight at times.
I'd say you're spot on with the Krav Maga conflict. Newsflash; brutality is not a new concept, people.
That said, I'm not sure if rapier fencing really fits the SM, just based on how their fighting style is portrayed. Not a lot of short, fast thrusting going on.
Well, an Astartes fighting a human or human sized opponent would be like the Hulk fighting a human, the sheer physical differences mean there's pretty well no requirement for any special kind of training.
Most Astartes vs Astartes training would, (as far as the unarmed aspect is concerned) work around throws and grappling. Punching someone in power armour, even for another Astartes, is pretty much an exercise in futility.
It would be very different to almost anything we have experience with, simply because of the physical differences. It'd be like training as a martial artist today, but where every practitioner is a muscle-bound hulk, and training to fight ten year old kids. Hell, even that doesn't accurately describe the differences.
Well, the roots of martial arts is based off the idea of self-defense and the idea of doing damage to someone or something. The easiest method is with a tool designed to damage. And when you don't have the means of acquiring one, that is when using your limbs become necessary. But the most basic of rules, the roots of the rules still apply. Main goal is to fend off an opponent, incapacitate, or kill. So based on what your goal is, you do whatever fancy hand or feet technique you need in order to achieve it. And beginning from there, because empty-handed techniques stem from the same methods of doing injury/disarming, a person must develop his/her own way so as not to be easily countered and outmanoeuvred.
Based off of this, an Astartes or any warrior of the Imperium really, must learn to do harm to the many things in their galaxy, most likely developing a technique for each enemy they face, and when needed, fall back to hand and leg techniques with the same idea of inflicting damage to the myriads of enemies they face. I would assume an Astartes would be taught these basic principles, and again, any warrior of the Imperium as well. So when it comes down to wrestling Mr. Ghazghkull, I would expect one would know where vital organs are located, how to to easiest break an enemies limb, twist joints, where to hit to inflict the most pain, how best to suffocate an opponent, and where the bleedout points of an enemy is. Oh, and if they see a gun lying around, they should use that as well.
There's a saying that goes around the US Military. The winner of any hand to hand engagement is whoever's buddy shows up first with a gun.
That said, the hulk-factor really only works against baseline humans/tau/anyone not designed for hand to hand combat. Eldar Aspect Warriors are clearly capable of taking on SM in hand-to-hand without getting hulk-smashed. So clearly, a versatile, flexible combat doctrine is required, one that contains a wide variety of techniques for dealing with a wide variety of enemies with widely varying capabilities and fighting styles.
TermiesInARaider wrote:one that contains a wide variety of techniques for dealing with a wide variety of enemies with widely varying capabilities and fighting styles.
TermiesInARaider wrote:one that contains a wide variety of techniques for dealing with a wide variety of enemies with widely varying capabilities and fighting styles.
So...four?
As opposed to 'modern' martial arts, that's plenty. We only have to take into account one anatomy, with one set of vital points, one set of joints, one set of techniques. I think it's safe to say trying an outside wristlock constructed for humans on a genestealer will get you killed, no matter who you are. Of course, if you'd like to grapple with a nob, you're more than welcome.
Kaldor wrote:Well, an Astartes fighting a human or human sized opponent would be like the Hulk fighting a human, the sheer physical differences mean there's pretty well no requirement for any special kind of training.
Most Astartes vs Astartes training would, (as far as the unarmed aspect is concerned) work around throws and grappling. Punching someone in power armour, even for another Astartes, is pretty much an exercise in futility.
It would be very different to almost anything we have experience with, simply because of the physical differences. It'd be like training as a martial artist today, but where every practitioner is a muscle-bound hulk, and training to fight ten year old kids. Hell, even that doesn't accurately describe the differences.
You are only thinking in terms of causing damage when it comes to marines striking marines and why they shouldn't do it with just their bare fists. There is a potential tactical edge a strike can give you even if it were to cause no damage, it could move, unbalance or cause an opponent to attempt to block. I practice a few martial arts and fight with guys a hell of a lot bigger than me, I can't damage some of these guys with my strikes but that doesn't mean they're no longer useful.
Also, there are martial arts today that work and practice around getting results when you're physically overpowered.
Lastly, earlier in this thread it was just assumed by you all that there would be no point using joint locks etc on a marine in power armour, the power of the person using it is regardless as long as they have good technique and have the correct physical proportions to execute a lock. It's not power that breaks limbs, it's the effect use of torque at the correct point. I would imagine it is totally possible that an exceptional human being given the right body type could break a marine joint even in power armour, maybe even breaking the suit in the location they were trying to damage if they so happened to get in the situation where they could do this. Highly unlikely the situation would come about but it could.
Lastly, from a personal opinion perspective, krav maga is a load of horsegak as the ultimate self defence system. The bourne movies made it super popular, which is incredible as krav is about 5% of the hand to hand fighting in all the films.
I imagine Space Marines would mainly be about Keysi/Mano Mano/Muay Thai and JKD. Brutal, fast and effective.
I am unsure about this business of applying modern day [and historical] fighting styles towards the Space Marines. The vast differences in enemies, both common and uncommon, are not shared amongst ourselves where the only foe is another human. I find it slightly nonsensical that we are even trying to apply known fighting techniques to an elite fighting cadre in the 41st millenium whom fight an incredible range of opponents, each with their own particularly brutal way of outfighting, outpacing and outfiring a Marine.
I do not dispute the possibility of any potential combat manual for the Marines. It was, in all likelihood, in practice during pre-Heresy days, during the Heresy and placed through the Codex Astartes post-Heresy. It must be noted however that throughout numerous BL novels we are given examples of differing fighting techniques amongst the Legions. As far as I can see; we are told very little, although it's pretty clear that there is a framework.
To whomever said that fighting a space marine for normal humans would be akin to fighting the hulk.
Spoiler:
Actually, I can see a particularly peeved off Space Marine pulling that off. I'd imagine it'd be incredibly cathartic. But yeah generally a space marine's fighting style generally comes down to "wreck face asap."
endlesswaltz123 wrote:You are only thinking in terms of causing damage when it comes to marines striking marines and why they shouldn't do it with just their bare fists. There is a potential tactical edge a strike can give you even if it were to cause no damage, it could move, unbalance or cause an opponent to attempt to block. I practice a few martial arts and fight with guys a hell of a lot bigger than me, I can't damage some of these guys with my strikes but that doesn't mean they're no longer useful.
I appreciate that, but the cost/reward matrix is skewed heavily in favour of grappling over striking. The powered armour changes things enough that real world analogies are only partially applicable at best.
endlesswaltz123 wrote:I would imagine it is totally possible that an exceptional human being given the right body type could break a marine joint even in power armour, maybe even breaking the suit in the location they were trying to damage if they so happened to get in the situation where they could do this. Highly unlikely the situation would come about but it could.
It'd be like someone trying to put an arm bar on a forklift. No human body could pull off something like that against an armoured Marine.
The best guess I have is some form of Jiu Jitsu. The military teaches some basics to troops in basic training. But Jiu Jitsu dosent really fit the SM style in my opinon, seeing that jiu jitsu is designed to take down someone much bigger than you. I dont think SM would have a problem on the whole strength thing.
A lot of grappling has been suggested, but I disagree strongly with it, spend too much time in contact with one single enemy and you will die to the other million enemies that are behind him.
Due to the Marine's brutal strength and lightning reflexes, little to no "standard" swipe/punch/slash techniques are required, since the Marine can simply do it in the most vulnerable point he can spot and just hit as hard as he can, optimizing damage on the fly.
TermiesInARaider wrote:That said, I'm not sure if rapier fencing really fits the SM, just based on how their fighting style is portrayed. Not a lot of short, fast thrusting going on.
Ah, I only put that in because there are people who truly believe that 'Martial Arts' only covers unarmed combat, or those from the Eastern part of the world, so I deliberately put in a martial art that is distinctly Western & also different from 'unarmed' combat - I could have put in Talhoffer and it would have been the same.
And I agree, the treatise of Italian, Spanish & European rapier maestros would not really suit the Astartes because of the movements involved and because every single movement is designed to keep the weapons wielder safe whilst putting the enemy in danger - I don't think the Astartes would mind so much being in danger with their mentality, bodies & armour.
*I'd love to see an Astartes in power armour trying to perform a passata sotto! Involves dropping very low, head tucked down, sword up and ahead of you at the opponents torso, with the back leg out to the rear or to the side of the sword hand.
TermiesInARaider wrote:That said, I'm not sure if rapier fencing really fits the SM, just based on how their fighting style is portrayed. Not a lot of short, fast thrusting going on.
Ah, I only put that in because there are people who truly believe that 'Martial Arts' only covers unarmed combat, or those from the Eastern part of the world, so I deliberately put in a martial art that is distinctly Western & also different from 'unarmed' combat - I could have put in Talhoffer and it would have been the same.
And I agree, the treatise of Italian, Spanish & European rapier maestros would not really suit the Astartes because of the movements involved and because every single movement is designed to keep the weapons wielder safe whilst putting the enemy in danger - I don't think the Astartes would mind so much being in danger with their mentality, bodies & armour.
*I'd love to see an Astartes in power armour trying to perform a passata sotto! Involves dropping very low, head tucked down, sword up and ahead of you at the opponents torso, with the back leg out to the rear or to the side of the sword hand.
Ooh, someone with an education! When I think of SM swordplay, at least in terms of a relic blade, I usually think of Lichtenaur's long-sword plays.
Dear sir, you're confusing Marines with Orks. When we speak of the best enhancements, equipment, and training the Imperium has to offer, I'm fairly certain, especially with the concentration of CCWs in the 40k universe, that, at the very least, rudimentary and basic empty-handed training, and certainly advanced training with assorted weapons, is far beyond implied. It practically needs no mention, it's so obvious.
TermiesInARaider wrote:Ooh, someone with an education! When I think of SM swordplay, at least in terms of a relic blade, I usually think of Lichtenaur's long-sword plays.
My turn to go "Ooh" because I hadn't really thought of applying c14/c15 longsword techniques to Space Marines and do you know my first thought was to try and work out how create Marine models with 'proper' c15 longsword 'power swords' - a project for the future perhaps! Thank you for (inadvertantly) firing up the creativity in my mind!
Dear sir, you're confusing Marines with Orks. When we speak of the best enhancements, equipment, and training the Imperium has to offer, I'm fairly certain, especially with the concentration of CCWs in the 40k universe, that, at the very least, rudimentary and basic empty-handed training, and certainly advanced training with assorted weapons, is far beyond implied. It practically needs no mention, it's so obvious.
Yes I understand the capacity of an Astartes's training, that was satirical.
Without knowledge of proper real-life hand-to-hand techniques or visual evidence of the Marines in action is it pretty difficult to say. The only time they will ever be tested to any capacity is against either other Astartes or Eldar, in the known 40k universe.
They have a clear advantage in strength over the Eldar, and it depends which chapter they're fighting for the former.
Most likely it involves brute strength over speed and skill. Not much use for agility and skill in the battles they fight.
iproxtaco wrote:Without knowledge of proper real-life hand-to-hand techniques or visual evidence of the Marines in action is it pretty difficult to say. The only time they will ever be tested to any capacity is against either other Astartes or Eldar, in the known 40k universe.
The Dawn of War intro movies show Marines in close combat against both Orks and Eldar. This is probably not exactly as it was imagined by the original writers, but GW seems to be quite happy to let them portray it as such.
Optimas is boss. Also, in regards to how individual chapters fight in H2H, I'd imagine the Salamanders would have (relativly) sluggish, but hella powerful double-overhands and haymakers.
P.S. The gene-seed with slower reflexes fluff is stupid, I motion it be replaced with, due to their increased bulk(for power) Salamanders aren't as agile as their brothers. Problem solved
TermiesInARaider wrote:So something just occurred to me. Is there a distinctive martial art/combatives system that the SM use? Or are they just straight brawling? I call upon thee, denizens of Dakka! Provide me the forbidden fluff that I seek!
It's probably a combination of brawling and basic martial arts from what I can tel.
A better question is-- which martial arts do Sisters use that allow them to perform miracles?
