While Orks have strength enough to potentially get through power armour, and Eldar have speed and skill to take down an armoured marine, how do enemies like Guardsmen or Tau fight them in close combat? I know that these troops aren't meant to fight up close, but considering marines can be rather keen to engage in hand to hand fighting, and the incompetence or callousness of some IG commanders can lead to infantry waves charging with bayonets, how can they possibly fight, or is there no hope for these guys?
They kill them through luck, sheer numbers, or shooting their guns at point blank range. A guardsman might get his face punched in while his sergeant attacks from behind with a power sword, a FW might fire his pulse rifle at point blank range into the marine's helmet.
Quite simply, opponents with the physical attributes of an unaugmented human would be utterly slaughtered in close-combat with a marine, unless they attacked in massive numbers and some lucky bastard has a power weapon(and the marine doesn't eliminate that particular threat first).
I would even go so far as to say it would be generally unfeasible for Eldar to engage a MEQ in melee combat. I don't care how fast or dexterous they are, it would be unwise to get within striking distance with the bold assumption that they would never have to block, parry, or take a glancing blow(and somehow dodge everything), as any of those things would result in their body being pulverized.
With power/force weapons, that's how normal Orks would have to either be quite big nob/boss or in large numbers to overpower a space marine, and I don't care how dexterous eldar are if they don't posses the needed weaponry they are screwed. As far as guardsmen and tau go, the guardsmen might get lucky and hit a cable or a vulnerable spot with his bayonet 0.01% chance or something like that, there are guardsmen however like the catachans that use monomolecular blades that posses a liquid inner part to give the hit quite the additional force (they have a bigger chance then the regular guardsmen by quite an amount) and a tau fire warrior just wont be able to even turn that long of a rifle (doesn't matter if he is trying to get a point blank shot or a hit with the butt of the rifle) in CQC, but a tau losing in such conditions is just the way it's suppose to be.
Tau tend to bring an unfair amount of firepower, Like Broadsides or Crisis suits
Guards, Interesting tactics, Like a laser defense grid that avtivates when a charging marine happens.
Ronin-Sage wrote:Quite simply, opponents with the physical attributes of an unaugmented human would be utterly slaughtered in close-combat with a marine, unless they attacked in massive numbers and some lucky bastard has a power weapon(and the marine doesn't eliminate that particular threat first).
I would even go so far as to say it would be generally unfeasible for Eldar to engage a MEQ in melee combat. I don't care how fast or dexterous they are, it would be unwise to get within striking distance with the bold assumption that they would never have to block, parry, or take a glancing blow(and somehow dodge everything), as any of those things would result in their body being pulverized.
flameShield();
I'm sure all those Banshees out there disagree with that. Or Path of the Warrior, for that matter.
Ronin-Sage wrote:Quite simply, opponents with the physical attributes of an unaugmented human would be utterly slaughtered in close-combat with a marine, unless they attacked in massive numbers and some lucky bastard has a power weapon(and the marine doesn't eliminate that particular threat first).
I would even go so far as to say it would be generally unfeasible for Eldar to engage a MEQ in melee combat. I don't care how fast or dexterous they are, it would be unwise to get within striking distance with the bold assumption that they would never have to block, parry, or take a glancing blow(and somehow dodge everything), as any of those things would result in their body being pulverized.
flameShield();
No need to flame; just gonna point out that the fluff proves you wrong. See the "Path Of" novel and the final book in the Night Lords trilogy for details on how Eldar tear through Space Marines like butter in close combat.
Ok I see a lot of people giving examples for Eldar warriors killing SM, they do so with power weapons, the guy before me as well as I stated that those are needed, I have read the Path of the Warrior novel and find the chainswords cutting SM limbs off total BS, I can understand getting a good stab or slash with both skill and luck, but the way they portrayed it was just... O\_/o. Yes Banshees are almost made for fighting SM, but they use power weapons, and even Jain Zar eventually got owned by them and she is a phoenix lord (that's what the best and first warriors of each shrine were called right?).
Chainswords are typically noted as having teeth with monomolecular edges. Thats pretty damn sharp. Add in the extremely fast spinniness and you've got something that will cut through limbs quite effectively, regardless of what they're wearing to the party.
Flinty wrote:Chainswords are typically noted as having teeth with monomolecular edges. Thats pretty damn sharp. Add in the extremely fast spinniness and you've got something that will cut through limbs quite effectively, regardless of what they're wearing to the party.
Right... Not how I have seen it for the most part but that's 40k fluff for you, things just differ depending on sources.
Imagine you are a Tau/Guardsman with Basic Gear. I dunno about you, but I'm sure as hell not going to try and stab an Ultramarine with a Knife or try to beat him with a rifle.
I'm going to hide while he kills my friends and then try to shoot him or bash his skull in(or try anyways) with rebar, preferably with a clump of concrete at the hitty end.
As others have said, numbers and luck is the way to go for these people (outside of the odd power weapon).
Even Astartes have weak points (neck joint, eye lenses, knees and elbow joints) in their Power Armour, so with enough numbers/attacks, these can be found. As an example, in one of the HH books, it mentions how at least one Marine basically died to a stone-age-like human (IIRC) as he got a spear to the neck.
BlaxicanX wrote:
Ronin-Sage wrote:Quite simply, opponents with the physical attributes of an unaugmented human would be utterly slaughtered in close-combat with a marine, unless they attacked in massive numbers and some lucky bastard has a power weapon(and the marine doesn't eliminate that particular threat first).
I would even go so far as to say it would be generally unfeasible for Eldar to engage a MEQ in melee combat. I don't care how fast or dexterous they are, it would be unwise to get within striking distance with the bold assumption that they would never have to block, parry, or take a glancing blow(and somehow dodge everything), as any of those things would result in their body being pulverized.
flameShield();
No need to flame; just gonna point out that the fluff proves you wrong. See the "Path Of" novel and the final book in the Night Lords trilogy for details on how Eldar tear through Space Marines like butter in close combat.
Emphasise mine.
... Really? Like butter? Path of the Warrior/Seer shows the difficulty in fighting Marines, whilst also describing the difficulty for Striking Scorpions to do so as a result of chainswords being unable to reliably penetrate Power Armour.
Obviously units such as Warlocks and Banshees are a different matter due to their equipment and abilities, but by and large, most Eldar struggle with Marines in all aspects, let alone close combat.
Their speed and reflexes provide real advantages for the Eldar when they are forced (emphasise forced, they would be unlikely to do it out of choice, bar specialised close combat units) into combat with an Astartes, but the likelihood is that they can only dodge and deflect for so long; once a Marine lands a blow, the fights basically over I'd imagine.
You see, Killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them, until they reached their limit and shut down.
In addition,"most" Eldar don't lose against Space Marines in close-combat. "Most" Eldar who don't have CCW's that can penetrate astartes armor lose against Space Marines who have CCW weapons that can penetrate Eldar armor. A guardian that gets its hands on a power weapon is going to make mince-meat out of a Space Marine who's armed with only a bolter in close-combat.
Ergo, "Warlocks and Banshees only do so well because of their equipment, most Eldar get their butts kicked against Space Marines" is a redundant statement. All Eldar are equal to Space Marines in reflexes and all Eldar have at least rudimentary combat training. The only deciding factor is what equipment they have and who's the more skilled duelist.
In Blood Gorgons the few marines that are killed by normal humans (well zombies) are only killed when they're toppled over and have their armour pried apart by the beasts. The Mk8 power armour also has a neck guard, noting the number of times in the fluff that a guardsmen or the like gets a lucky shot against this unprotected area. Perhaps someone could jump onto a marine's back and start hammering at their neck join or eyes until they penetrate (assuming the marine doesn't just swat them off). Bring some sort of explosive and whack a hole in there armour, or find some way of decompressing it and slowly unlatching it piece by piece (....which is completely practical of course).=/
But in that novel space marines pretty much walk around like tanks. They do go for cover when the number of auto/las rounds hitting them becomes a torrent, and are torn up by bolt ruins not too difficultly, but otherwise they just go through the motions when fighting lesser opponents-ie the Eldar are fast, but the marines just wait for them to close into and clobber them with a wrecking ball strength (comparatively) punch.
I am no expert, but I am pretty sure that a power suit isn't bulletproof everywhere. I remember reading somewhere (possibly here) that they have weak spots, like exposed power cables and weakly armored joints, so you could probably maim or decapitate an SM if you just hit the right spot, or at least sever some cables to make his suit useless.
The Heresy Era suits and earlier models (bar the Mk5) all had exposed power cables, or in the case of the Heresy suit was made of weaper materials than conventional suits. Later models have the cables inside the suits (and its common for older suits like the Corvus to have the cables relocated inside the armour too). A marine's suit is meant to be impenatrable against most conventional weapons in all areas bar the joins between pieces (ie the armpit), eye sockets (which are plated, but not made from armoured ceramite like the rest of the suit) and ventilation ports (ie the big one at the center of a Corvus suit's chest plate or all over any of the Mk's helmets, unless their closed-which also means the marine has to rely on their internal systems for oxygen rather than the outside atmosphere). If a suit loses its power back then the marine only has so much time left before the power runs out and he's left to move the suit with his strength alone (ie its just an armoured suit, it loses its ability to adapt to a marine's movements, -in some suits- incoming fire, and functions like air recycling, auspex and communication).
Yori wrote:Ok I see a lot of people giving examples for Eldar warriors killing SM, they do so with power weapons, the guy before me as well as I stated that those are needed, I have read the Path of the Warrior novel and find the chainswords cutting SM limbs off total BS, I can understand getting a good stab or slash with both skill and luck, but the way they portrayed it was just... O\_/o. Yes Banshees are almost made for fighting SM, but they use power weapons, and even Jain Zar eventually got owned by them and she is a phoenix lord (that's what the best and first warriors of each shrine were called right?).
Matters on the eldar too. Scorpions hunt and their weapons are incredibly strong. Especially because they are injected with certain things. but against marines? They fail. They are light infantry killers.
Plus path of the warrior was just bleh
Wyrmalla wrote:The Heresy Era suits and earlier models (bar the Mk5) all had exposed power cables, or in the case of the Heresy suit was made of weaper materials than conventional suits. Later models have the cables inside the suits (and its common for older suits like the Corvus to have the cables relocated inside the armour too). A marine's suit is meant to be impenatrable against most conventional weapons in all areas bar the joins between pieces (ie the armpit), eye sockets (which are plated, but not made from armoured ceramite like the rest of the suit) and ventilation ports (ie the big one at the center of a Corvus suit's chest plate or all over any of the Mk's helmets, unless their closed-which also means the marine has to rely on their internal systems for oxygen rather than the outside atmosphere). If a suit loses its power back then the marine only has so much time left before the power runs out and he's left to move the suit with his strength alone (ie its just an armoured suit, it loses its ability to adapt to a marine's movements, -in some suits- incoming fire, and functions like air recycling, auspex and communication).
Pretty much what I was thinking!
How well does power armour stand against crushing blows, though? I can see how cutting through it might be impossible if you don't have a chainsword, but surely you could smash a helmet somehow?
Again in the novel Blood Gorgons a marine is caught in a landslide. He spends a few days slowly digging his way out, but otherwise doesn't suffer too much damage. I would assume that marines are protected to a certain amount of pressure so as to withstand the vacuum of space and depressurisation (I recall a short story where a group of marines walked along the sea bed to assault an under water mechanicus facility). If a boulder fell on a marine then their chest armour would probably cave in (ie strength 8 rockslide defeats toughness 4 marine). An Ogryn could probably pry open a suit of power armour or bash in a marine's head if they landed enough blows (chaos spawn crush marines all the time in the fluff..... ^^),but for a normal human it would be like battering your fists against concrete.
All Armor will have weak points. They have to have flexibility in some area's or spots where they go together. No matter how good to suit, it will have weak points.
Now being strong enough or having something sharp enough to take advantage of those, while not dying . Is another story
how do enemies like Guardsmen or Tau fight them in close combat?
Fluffwise? They don't.
The tabletop game is balanced so that any one army has the opportunity to beat any other army. The tabletop is not designed around the fluff. Sometimes, the reverse is true, but not always.
Flinty wrote:Chainswords are typically noted as having teeth with monomolecular edges. Thats pretty damn sharp. Add in the extremely fast spinniness and you've got something that will cut through limbs quite effectively, regardless of what they're wearing to the party.
Right... Not how I have seen it for the most part but that's 40k fluff for you, things just differ depending on sources.
Read the Horus Heresy novels. Chainswords tear up marines better then bolter fire does. And those are just clumsy human chainswords, not those produced by a race that was conquering the galaxy when dinosaurs were eating our distant relatives.
I'm sure it's probably easier to wait until that Space Marine becomes important enough to the plot to not have to wear a helmet anymore. Then you can shoot him point blank in the face!
Go the gaunt route, throw so many at him that he runs out of bolts and then just dogpile him until your sheer total mass can crack his armour. With the tyranid to space marine number ratio, it's still a win for you.
Meh Space marines are overhyped when it comes to these things. One primitive savage armed with a wooden spear did manage to take down a word bearer in The First heretic remember? Made a bloody mess out of the unfortunate marine's throat.
Im thinking sheer numbers. A space marine could beat a guardsmen hands down. Unless this is a guardsmen who gets off a lucky point blank shot or has 20 other buddies with him.
I think eldar could beat a space marine in combat as take lilith in the dark eldar history took down space marine after space marine to qoute 'at their head fought lelith hesperax; grace and power incarnate. Warriors fell apart before her; chainsword fell from lifeless hands and bolt rounds hurtled through empty space where a blood splattered she-devil stood a split second before.
Redcruisair wrote:Meh Space marines are overhyped when it comes to these things. One primitive savage armed with a wooden spear did manage to take down a word bearer in The First heretic remember? Made a bloody mess out of the unfortunate marine's throat.
Thats the old armor. The old armor of pervious marks has those exposed parts uncovered. So it is not surprising that CSM get owned more often. It is because of their 'weaker' marks of armor.
The old marks of armour do have numerous instances of failing to protect such the one mentioned and also the dark apostle when a terminator get cooked when hiding in a cave by an imperial guard flamer (very ignominious end.). Another way SMs or CSMs can be beaten by lesser races
Hunterindarkness wrote:SM's are easy pray at range to a sniper as well. But massed fire at range and massed attack at close range can bring one down easy enough.
Very true. I recall a pathfinder taking out an entire squad of marines with 15 shots. Pathfinders are OP in fluff and in the actual game.
All this talk of armour weakness etc is going Off topic...
To beat SM as Tau one simply uses Casino Dice.
See using chessex you will always lose as they suck and roll 1's a lot =]
But on a more serious note... Tau basic Firewarriors have a S5 rifle with 30" Range..... Thats a oretty good way to beat Power Armour in this game... the only thing that is moot is the fact vehicles are now worth about 5 pts so every is mech and a 30" range means shyte.,
Milisim wrote:All this talk of armour weakness etc is going Off topic...
To beat SM as Tau one simply uses Casino Dice.
See using chessex you will always lose as they suck and roll 1's a lot =]
But on a more serious note... Tau basic Firewarriors have a S5 rifle with 30" Range..... Thats a oretty good way to beat Power Armour in this game... the only thing that is moot is the fact vehicles are now worth about 5 pts so every is mech and a 30" range means shyte.,
Are you trolling. This 40k background. Not 40k Tactics.
This is fluff debating. And yes it actually is on topic. Your agrument is off-topic as your talking table-top. Were talking in the fluff.
It can, so can mines, grenades and an assortment of other things. They are tough, not invincible. Chargeing in will get them killed almost every time aginest a trained and competent foe.
Nitros14 wrote:If a Lasgun can kill a marine at range, why can't it kill him at point blank range?
True enough. I agree.
Although I always liked how they described Justicar Alaric's wounds from massed lasgun fire (possibly hundreds of shots) in Grey Knights. Basically the lasguns couldn't penetrate his armour, but they heated the ceramite material so hot that it burned his skin, basically cooking him.
Non-massed Lasgun fire could potentially kill a SM, but unless it's a Gaunt's Ghosts novel, this is probably very, very difficult. The ceramic component of the armour makes it almost invulnerable to heat based weaponry unless it's meant to bore through tank armour (Lascannons, Melta weapons, etc) and unless we're talking about old-style Power Armour there really aren't too many 'weak spots' to hit.
I remember someone describing SM armour as being similar to that of an Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) like a Bradley. You could probably fire 1000 rounds of small-arms into it without doing any real damage.
I also liken it to medieval knights wearing heavy plate. You couldn't reliably pierce the armour with swords/arrows/ so the goal was to dent the armour so that the warrior could no longer breathe or knock him down and overwhelm him while prone. I feel like this would be the goal with a SM as well.
I really think how good the armor is depends upon the fluff. In some fluff it is almost impossible to break though, in other chain swords or other such weapons do so .
I think Mass fire would get though, but a single shot would not do much without aiming at weak points and having luck.
IG and Tau use weight of fire.All Eldar elite warriors are equipped with power weapons or ranged weapons that can destroy power armor.Orks use incredible physical strength and massive caliber shootas,which are kind of like innacurate bolt guns.
"Close combat" isn't just hand-to-hand and melee weapons, it also incorporates point-blank shots and any dirty trick you can come up with. If all you have is a knife you either have to be very good or get creative. Fight in damaged buildings where your unarmored troops can move unhindered while marines risk crashing through floors. Fight in a swamp, or flood the battlefield so it's neck-deep mud for anyone heavier than a man. The marines will still smash a good deal of opponents but they're slowed down and unable to use their full strength.
And as the BRB says, not all casualties are necessarily dead. They just can't carry on for some reason. When a marine fails a save in CC he probably didn't die as often as have some system shut down or get stuck so badly that you need a Rhino to dig him out.
If your a commander of Tau or Imperial guard and allow yourself to come into CQC with Space Marines, you've already lost in the over arching scheme of things. You aren't playing to your strengths and in fact your playing in theirs.
There's been a lot of mentions here but things like grenades, point blank firing and massed dogpiles would get there eventually but with their bare hands or combat knives most human grade opponents are going to struggle.
Eldar guardians are just as fast as a marine but lack the strength, durability or stamina of a marine and so would likely be relying on close range catapult fire, Aspect Warriors and Dark Eldar are another matter. Using initiative scores they are as far beyond the marine as he is to a human in terms of raw speed. Marines are stronger and tougher but if the Eldar has any kit to pierce the armour then the marine is stuffed.
Some races like gaunts have the added bonus over the guardsman that the guardsman may well hesitate to give his own life just to give one of his buddies an opportunity, a gaunt wont.
Marines are powerful warriors in their own right, but a good chunk of their power in melee is that power armour, there are many more deadly races in the galaxy and numbers and a lack of self preservation can even a fight up fast even before specialist weapons.
I imagine that a fight between a marine and an Eldar is like the one in Sin City with the leaping and the slashing just making the Marine angrier and angrier...
Dark Disciple is, IMHO, a good description of how Eldar fight against SM. Keeping their distance, overextending the marines and striking at their weak points. When a marine swings his chainsword/power weapon/fist/hammer/bare hands, it takes time. Not a huge amount of time, mind you, but slower than an Eldar can move. Dark Disciple describes it as the marines just barely missing the Eldar, who were at some points mere millimeters away from landing the blow.
As for guardsmen? When a Space Marine swings his weapon or fists, there's going to be a vulnerable part exposed. Joints, his neck, etc. There's nothing stopping a guardsmen from stabbing a marine in the eye (which isn't ceramite/adamantium/feth all armor) with his bayonet and killing/maiming/wounding him seriously.
People act like marines have I10 S10 T10 at times... seriously.
The Tau abhor Close Combat and unless in the direst circumstances (For instance that horrible McNeil Book Courage and Honor, where the Pathfinders go apeshit in trying to defend the Ethereal), so they would be firing their weapons moreso than using them as clubs. And where are the Kroot when all of this happens?
In a short sotry I read, "Voice(call?) of Blood" an enitre regiment of guardsmen went over to Khorne(because they were tired of being treated, like, well, guardsmen lol) and a squad of black templar had to stop them from reaching a spaceport. An assualt squad(of 3 guys) tried to delay them, but were overpowered when the frenzied guardsmen dogpiled them and dragged them to the ground, picked up chunks of ferrocrete and bashed them repeatedly in the helmet till they died...
Nothing says projectiles arent allowed in CC.
Even the fluff states that pistols and the likes are used.
Why would a guardsmen or firewarrior try and hit/stab/beat what is essentially a walking tank when they can fire point blank at them?
The start of dawn of wars a good example showing how a marine will use a chainsword while firing his pistol at the same time.
I'm kind of surprised Mallissa hasn't jumped into this thread. Space Marine. Threads detailing how not-invincible Space Marines are are her natural habitat.
Spetulhu wrote:"Close combat" isn't just hand-to-hand and melee weapons, it also incorporates point-blank shots and any dirty trick you can come up with.
I don't know why people would think otherwise. It's not like every race in 40k has some sort of gentleman's agreement where within 5m they're required to sling their weapons and box under London Prize Ring rules.
Well usually it's by shooting them, but sometimes they also stab them.
Why do people still have the delusion that Marines are gods amongst men? Marines are mortals. They're no tougher than the average Ork boy, and sure their power armor is effective but it doesn't stop everything.
They're no tougher than the average Ork boy, and sure their power armor is effective but it doesn't stop everything.
The average Ork being tough as hell from the start is a good reason why we think they are god amongst men. Take a human the size of a small ork, bulging with muscles, like the Rock or I don't know who, and shoot him once with even a small caliber, and he'll likely go down from the shock. I doubt an Ork would feel a 9mm...
Then add on the fact that they are quicker, smarter (usually... well, supposedly...), better equipped, better supplied logistically, better deployed, more autonomous...
AND then the fact that they never go anywhere without an armor decidedly over what is normally available to some of the most advanced races of the universe...
Then you should get why " do people still have the delusion that Marines are gods amongst men? "
Oh and as far as I'm concerned, the question of Eldar vs Marines... well, I would say that no Marines should go in combat with an Eldar without taking good care. Still, the Eldar will fold much faster comparatively to the Marine, so unless he is better equipped than the Astartes, or as received extensive special cqc training (which isn't uncommon), then the Marine will win. So the Marines that go chest-thumping and clamoring about how they can kill Eldars without a thought to it are likely Marines with a very short life expectancy, because with (random number) 80% of Eldars, that will be true, and with the other 20%, he won't know what hit him.
I'd reckon that the Eldar specialists of the Deathwatch, knowing more about the xenos than other, would be able to take an enormous toll on any Craftworld they decide to attack...
Kovnik Obama wrote:The average Ork being tough as hell from the start is a good reason why we think they are god amongst men. Take a human the size of a small ork
Hunched over, or standing up straightt?
Because Orks are easily the size of Space Marines if they stood up straight, but their natural position is hunched over.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Then add on the fact that they are quicker
Not really, unless you're saying "compared to an unaugmented or untrained human in power armor whom has no neural uplink to their armor", but that's a lot less impressive. Sisters for example with training reach or exceed the speed of a Space Marine in power armor, and assassins almost invariably exceed it, even the ones that aren't part of the Officio Assassinorum.
No, there's no evidence of them being smarter than the average well trained human. Indeed, given matters of pride, they can frequently behave less intelligently.
All of this, however, is true, and this provides the main advantage of the Space Marines. The Imperial Guard is capable of dealing with Ork threats on a regular basis. The main advantage that Marines have over Orks is that Marines are better equipped on average and that Marines bother to aim.
Kovnik Obama wrote:AND then the fact that they never go anywhere without an armor decidedly over what is normally available to some of the most advanced races of the universe...
Normally, sure, but Ork power armor is arguably better, and there's more Orks in mega armor than there are marines.
Kovnik Obama wrote:I'd reckon that the Eldar specialists of the Deathwatch, knowing more about the xenos than other, would be able to take an enormous toll on any Craftworld they decide to attack...
I reckon that guard units used to dealing with power armored threats (such as those who have fought on Cadia) could take on a chapter and deal an enormous toll on any Marine fortress they decide to attack, too
Because Orks are easily the size of Space Marines if they stood up straight, but their natural position is hunched over.
Closest available point of reference, so I guess a small Ork, even a juvenile one, hunched, against a very tall human body builder. Still, I think no one will argue the essence of the argument ; that very tall body builder is (very) vulnerable to small arms fire, while it would take a lucky shot to kill an Ork, or even really arm him. If naked, this is the point of comparison for Marines toughness, then that's pretty godlike, from our point of view.
Not really, unless you're saying "compared to an unaugmented or untrained human in power armor whom has no neural uplink to their armor", but that's a lot less impressive.
Quicker than Orks, yes.
Sisters for example with training reach or exceed the speed of a Space Marine in power armor, and assassins almost invariably exceed it, even the ones that aren't part of the Officio Assassinorum.
I didn't know about Sisters, but I guess that would make sense. And obviously, assassins, too. There is obviously 'faster' than Marines in the universe, even in the IoM, but its undeniable that isn't available to the masses.
No, there's no evidence of them being smarter than the average well trained human. Indeed, given matters of pride, they can frequently behave less intelligently.
Isn't there something about them having super-quick thought processes, or is that just something the Primarches had? I thought this was the basis for he Initiative boost.
All of this, however, is true, and this provides the main advantage of the Space Marines. The Imperial Guard is capable of dealing with Ork threats on a regular basis. The main advantage that Marines have over Orks is that Marines are better equipped on average and that Marines bother to aim.
Well, that's an undue reduction. The real main advantage the Astartes have over the Orks is that (normally), Astartes are smarter, and have a much better defined intent. On top of that, they have technical, training, logistics and strategic supremacy over the Orks (in the case of the Chapters that aren't completely blinded by their own egos). In a few situations, where one really bright Warboss or Mek arise, they might lose one or more of those aspects.
Normally, sure, but Ork power armor is arguably better, and there's more Orks in mega armor than there are marines.
Why better?
I reckon that guard units used to dealing with power armored threats (such as those who have fought on Cadia) could take on a chapter and deal an enormous toll on any Marine fortress they decide to attack, too
Well, sure, that's what a specialized unit would be, and I guess the Stormtroopers and Melta Vets of Cadia could be considered MEQ-hunters. But if that's the IG's idea of a specialized force, that's weak. That barely takes care of resolving one of the tactical superiorities of the Astartes (armor).
Dunno, Orks can have really fast combat reactions. Better than humans, in many cases.
Kovnik Obama wrote:I didn't know about Sisters, but I guess that would make sense. And obviously, assassins, too. There is obviously 'faster' than Marines in the universe, even in the IoM, but its undeniable that isn't available to the masses.
Mostly because the masses aren't superbly trained soldiers, nevermind superbly trained soldiers with expensive power armor and neural uplinks.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Isn't there something about them having super-quick thought processes
Nope. It's hypno-indoctrination, which can be given to any human being, and indeed is often given to Inquisitorial agents and assassins, for example. There's actually rules for this in the FFG roleplayin games in fact. It is not unique to Marines.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Why better?
Provides better protection and better strength enhancement in exchange for inferior power supply, essentially. As a combat armor, it works very well. The Ork that is in it is a nob anyway, so it's not like he is anything less than a whirling dervish of green skinned death outside of the mega armor.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Well, sure, that's what a specialized unit would be, and I guess the Stormtroopers and Melta Vets of Cadia could be considered MEQ-hunters. But if that's the IG's idea of a specialized force, that's weak. That barely takes care of resolving one of the tactical superiorities of the Astartes (armor).
That's all that needs to be taken care of. The Guard is fully capable of finding Marines with its sensors and auspices,and any intelligence gathering equipment that the Marines have the Guard really has more of anyway. Sure there's people that argue that Marines are like batman and can predict every single thing that's about to happen, but there's no evidence of that.
I'm just saying that Marines aren't as tough as they're made out ot be, nor are they really as fast or smart either. They are, physically, as tough as an Ork. The Imperial Guard can have a single guardsman hose down an Ork with a lasgun and they go down after being hit several times. Same with Marines out of power armor. Their power armor provides an extra layer of protection, but it is not an all-encompassing layer of indestructium. Thus why Marines take cover in firefights unless they believe they can charge in to melee fast enough taht they can take the enemy down quicker in melee than at range. Even then, they expect casualties (although marines, much like Orks, are much more likely to simply be incapacitated than they are to be killed).
And I heard that Captain Titus and 2 other marines reconquered a forge world against millions of Orks - and a few other things.
As human as Space Marines are, they are still much more formidable than I think you're giving them credit for Melissia. Yes, they may be as tough as an Ork, but they also have the training, equipment, and dedication to be something much greater than that and have been around long enough in the lore to prove it.
Average Ork Boyz are tougher then Marines? In every piece of fluff, Astartes rip through huge numbers of Orks in melee combat. Hell even Guardsmen go toe-to-toe with them in melee. Orks are naturally tougher/stronger then humans, but the difference is probably similar between a human and a grizzly bear.
Nobz are an entirely different story however. I'd put them as tougher then an Astartes naturally.
BlaxicanX wrote:I'm kind of surprised Mallissa hasn't jumped into this thread. Space Marine. Threads detailing how not-invincible Space Marines are are her natural habitat.
Melissia wrote:Well usually it's by shooting them, but sometimes they also stab them.
Why do people still have the delusion that Marines are gods amongst men? Marines are mortals. They're no tougher than the average Ork boy, and sure their power armor is effective but it doesn't stop everything.
You like how I just kind of summoned her with my warp sorcery? Dat Tzeentch powah, son.
You don't strap demo charges to your own squad members, you strap them to the armour of the space marine. Surely the world of 40k has sticky glue (or just plain snot in case of Orks)?
I don't remember a Space Marine arm being cut apart by a chain sword in Path of the Warrior, but I do remember the Exarch soul remembering being killed a few times by Space Marines.
And I heard that Captain Titus and 2 other marines reconquered a forge world against millions of Orks - and a few other things.
Can you hear this? That is the sound of Melissia's mind trying to find a sophism that would justify discounting Space Marine while continuing to draw from FFG
And Titus and the 2 meatshields weren't alone, they just didn't need to team up with the other UM present to wipe the floor with that Whaaagh. And let's note that if Very Difficult is the appropriate level of fluff comparison (as is in Halo), then what Titus did, he had (random number) about 1% chance of doing. But still, 1%, when your 3 against many millions... That's pretty godlike in my book.
I'm going to go with massed firepower. There'd be no point fixing a bayonet if you were charged by an astartes. Even if you managed to get a clean lunge on him, you'd break your knife, your gun or your shoulder. It'd be like trying to skewer a brick wall.
But running away while holding down the trigger...that might just work.
Space Marines are not as infallible as you think, in Gaunt's Ghosts it's shown that regular guardsmen can take down Space Marines quite easily with disciplined fire or if they keep a level head in close combat.
Most guardsmens bayonets are made out of solid Adamantium and many have super sharp edges like those on a chain sword.
sure without the proper strength guardsmen couldn't likely plunge it through a marines Armour (joints maybe) but they would not likely break unless under extreme stress
DemetriDominov wrote:And I heard that Captain Titus and 2 other marines reconquered a forge world against millions of Orks - and a few other things.
Titus, two other Marines, a few other squads of Marines, including reinforcements from an entire other CHAPTER, and a large force of Imperial Guard, combined with naval assets and a Titan with its crew and a large number of emplaced guns..
You didn't pay much attention to that game did you?
Harriticus wrote:Average Ork Boyz are tougher then Marines?
Yes. Tougher, actually-- Orks can survive many things that would instantly kill a Marine. Decapitation, for example. Orks have multiple redundant organs and an insensitivity to pain and shock that easily rivals that of the Astartes.
Furthermore, Orks are effectively (with obscenely rare exceptions) immune to the corruption of chaos.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Can you hear this? That is the sound of Melissia's mind trying to find a sophism that would justify discounting Space Marine while continuing to draw from FFG
No, this is the sound of Melissia's eyes rolling because you FAILED to actually pay attention to the game. Eye grinding against tear-duct lubricated flesh is fairly quiet though, so I'm surprised you heard it.
DemetriDominov wrote:And I heard that Captain Titus and 2 other marines reconquered a forge world against millions of Orks - and a few other things.
Titus, two other Marines, a few other squads of Marines, including reinforcements from an entire other CHAPTER, and a large force of Imperial Guard, combined with naval assets and a Titan with its crew and a large number of emplaced guns..
You didn't pay much attention to that game did you?
Hmm sarcasm... lost upon the binary of the internet. But lets put it this way: The IG failed to stop the Orks.. like they always do. The Titan literally fired a single shot the whole game, the naval assets didn't do anything but crash, burn, die, and spew bloody orky bits everywhere. Finally, you know as well as I do a chapter is seldom deployed at full strength anywhere in the galaxy. (Bring back someone's comment about the GK's being unstoppable if the whole chapter was deployed someplace, it says the exact same thing about the Black Templars). At most the SM's that were deployed were around 100, a very generous number considering we probably saw 25-30 the entire game, including the Inquisitions arrival. So knowing that virtually the entire planet was a lost cause when the SM's arrived, I'd say they did fairly well with just 100* marines against millions of orks, including hundreds of Nobs and a Warboss.
DemetriDominov wrote:The IG failed to stop the Orks
You mean the Mechanicus did. The Guard arrived to reinforce the Mechanicus, and managed to land and secure a beachhead before their supply lines and reinforcements were cut off. After the reinforcements were restored, the Guard, not the Marines, did most of the work in freeing the world from the Orkoid scum, with the Space Marines merely assisting through destroying key assets and killing the warboss to make the Orks become less organized. Only the arrival of chaos marines slowed the Guard down, and that was only a brief fight. The Guard continued battling against Chaos, and after the victory against the sorcerer, it mopped up the Chaos and Ork forces.
DemetriDominov wrote:the naval assets didn't do anything but crash, burn, die, and spew bloody orky bits everywhere.
... and keep the Orks busy in Space, thus making it easier for everyone.
DemetriDominov wrote: Finally, you know as well as I do a chapter is seldom deployed at full strength anywhere in the galaxy.
I never said it was the whole chapter. Read my posts, don't listen to the voices in your head.
Melissia wrote:Which was stating that the marines were from an entirely different chapter.
Entire and entirely are two very different words, even in the context you used it in. I get what you mean now, but still, 100 Marines (if that) plus a small contingency of gaurd.. who failed on top of the Mechanicus to hold the forge world against the (again) millions, of Orks. SM's not only defend against them, but are often the only force that drives them back.
Given that the game also has you being able to heal wounds by shooting people, armour that repairs itself totally in seconds if left unmolested and being wounded having no lasting effect i'd say it's a pretty poor reference for the toughness of Space Marines
Space Marines have been taken down with a single poisoned needle before in the fluff, too.
BL tends to uberify the marines a touch (bolter-porn and plot armour ahoy). Any fluffset that allows backflipping terminators or single marine squads taking out thousands of foes without reloading or resupply has at best questionable contact with the actual setting's fluff.
1000 bolt rounds would make one hell of a backpack. They aren't exactly small shells
Sm vary in the fluff from studly humans to demigods, with no actual consistent baseline. The Pro-marine faction will naturally scoop the most egregious of the godly version to support their claim, and the less marine-oriented will ignore those stories as the obvious fan--service they are.
In the codex fluff most Marines are badasses, but not godly.
In comicbook comparison Batman, rather than Superman..
Ascalam wrote:Given that the game also has you being able to heal wounds by shooting people.
It's actually more like ripping them apart in melee and stomping their faces in with unbridled contempt, which isn't tough or true to character of the SM's at all.... hiding behind cover and whatnot.. but yeah, shooting them with auto repairing armor, that's close enough to the lore anyway, we'll go with that without an ounce of sarcasm.
I don't get what's going on here, why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors, and they do a hell of a job doing it regardless of what part of the fiction you're drawing from. What does it matter if they kill 100 enemies or a million? It's still vastly more than most humans could ever hope to achieve and killing them in close combat is extremely difficult unless you've got the talent, gift, or just plain brute strength to do it. If you're a lesser opponent, really your only chance is to get them by either range, ambushing, explosives, a special and very powerful weapon, a whole bunch of you, some luck, and/or all of the above. It's repeated a lot in the lore, in the BL novels, in the codex, in the rule book, in multiple forms of the game, in the RPG's, in the computer games, and finally in SM. They are the living embodiment of war, and to defeat them, you must find a weakness to exploit them on, just like any other enemy. The best one? Not to go to war against them in the first place if you can help it.
And you Melissia.. just hate SM's don't you.. rofl.
DemetriDominov wrote:I don't get what's going on here, why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors, and they do a hell of a job doing it regardless of what part of the fiction you're drawing from.
I don't get why you can't argue without using a strawman, myself.
But I'll go with this-- this is your argument by the way, not mine.
The idea is simple. Marines aren't humans, therefor they are not humanity's best warriors. That is the Sisters, whom are, unlike Marines, human. If you consider Marines to be human (I don't), then sure, they're humanity's best warriors, sure, but only through physical prowess. The average veteran guardsman is probably a better soldier, and a Sister is definitely a better holy warrior.
Melissia wrote:they're humanity's best warriors, sure, but only through physical prowess. The average veteran guardsman is probably a better soldier, and a Sister is definitely a better holy warrior.
This is true, but each is specifically suited to fill that role, veterans are supposed to be the experienced grizzly soldiers who have seen it all, and the sisters are supposed to be the fanatical crusaders, and of course marines are supposed to be the (slightly) super human warriors with a lifetime of skill and boosted strength at there disposal.
as far a effectiveness they all have their roles to fill
DemetriDominov wrote:I don't get what's going on here, why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors, and they do a hell of a job doing it regardless of what part of the fiction you're drawing from.
I don't get why you can't argue without using a strawman, myself.
But I'll go with this-- this is your argument by the way, not mine.
The idea is simple. Marines aren't humans, therefor they are not humanity's best warriors. That is the Sisters, whom are, unlike Marines, human
Ah, I see where this is going now. No one has ever said you have to be human to be it's best warrior. The Emperor was by far it's greatest warrior, if not him then it was either Horus or Sanguinus. By the Emperor, humanity made the SM's as a weapon of war to protect humanity. They are agents of war, and as living beings are defined as warriors. Therefore, they are humanity's greatest warriors although not actually human. Humanities greatest warriors who are still actually human, are in fact the Sisters of Battle. But we are again arguing over the meaning of words, rather than the context and heart of what we're discussing. The SM's are not easy opponents and have been proven time and again to reflect their legendary status as the video game Space Marine has portrayed them, not as the table top has, or the movie Ultramarine's has, or even how overly inflated some BL authors have made them out to be. They have their unfortunate moments where they are slaughtered and beaten terribly by another foe, but overall, as a whole, the Adeptus Astartes and their darker brethren have always been considered the most powerful fighting force the galaxy has ever known.
Most powerful in terms of specialization and military tactics perhaps but Marines cannot hope to match the numbers or firepower of other factions in the galaxy
Ascalam wrote:Given that the game also has you being able to heal wounds by shooting people.
It's actually more like ripping them apart in melee and stomping their faces in with unbridled contempt, which isn't tough or true to character of the SM's at all.... hiding behind cover and whatnot.. but yeah, shooting them with auto repairing armor, that's close enough to the lore anyway, we'll go with that without an ounce of sarcasm.
I don't get what's going on here, why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors, and they do a hell of a job doing it regardless of what part of the fiction you're drawing from. What does it matter if they kill 100 enemies or a million? It's still vastly more than most humans could ever hope to achieve and killing them in close combat is extremely difficult unless you've got the talent, gift, or just plain brute strength to do it. If you're a lesser opponent, really your only chance is to get them by either range, ambushing, explosives, a special and very powerful weapon, a whole bunch of you, some luck, and/or all of the above. It's repeated a lot in the lore, in the BL novels, in the codex, in the rule book, in multiple forms of the game, in the RPG's, in the computer games, and finally in SM. They are the living embodiment of war, and to defeat them, you must find a weakness to exploit them on, just like any other enemy. The best one? Not to go to war against them in the first place if you can help it.
And you Melissia.. just hate SM's don't you.. rofl.
Fun though that is (and i love the game ) you can also heal by shooting people after a certain point (one of the Fury unlocks grants this)
Of course if we're allowing the game as valid game lore my Bomb Squigs are S 10 AP 2 large-blast weapons and my Nobz can take multiple lascannon hits dead on without being more than mildly vexed
Those things are the nastiest opponent in the game. I've died more to them than anything else in the game
razor5647 wrote:Most powerful in terms of specialization and military tactics perhaps but Marines cannot hope to match the numbers or firepower of other factions in the galaxy
I was talking about the Great Crusade, which was led by the Legion's of Astartes. Btw... what happened to the Orks during that time Melissia?
Arguing with space marine legions during the time period when marines had no set popcap and they where supplied with weaponry that has since been reduced to rare relic status is a non starter.
The marine legions and there primarchs during the great crusade could overwhelm any foe.
But it was not just the skills and strength of the marines it was that combined with the imperium being at its technological height and being led by the greatest minds humanity has ever produced.
under those conditions the imperial army could have been the primary fighting force of the great crusade. They may have not been as efficient or as resilient as the marines but with the tech and the leadership they could get the job done.
Ascalam wrote:Every Guardsman a Meltagunner/non-overheating plasmagunner/etc.
exactly if all the army troops where equipped with advanced weapons and carapace armor (or even power armor) that combined with super leadership skills during this time period would ensure just as successful a crusade as marines provided.
razor5647 wrote:Arguing with space marine legions during the time period when marines had no set popcap and they where supplied with weaponry that has since been reduced to rare relic status is a non starter.
The marine legions and there primarchs during the great crusade could overwhelm any foe.
But it was not just the skills and strength of the marines it was that combined with the imperium being at its technological height and being led by the greatest minds humanity has ever produced.
under those conditions the imperial army could have been the primary fighting force of the great crusade. They may have not been as efficient or as resilient as the marines but with the tech and the leadership they could get the job done.
It was still mostly the Space Marines as they were the warriors of the time. I was referencing them considering it would be ALL of them against the whole galaxy since saying that a single chapter, even at full strength is designed to fail against odds that are not in the Imperium's interests, such as another revolt against Imperial authority. They, like the imperium are a shadow of what they once were, but there's no doubt they're still the best humanity has ever done in terms of making fighting machines.
DemetriDominov wrote:Ah, I see where this is going now.
You do? Well, I certainly don't. As I said, YOU were the one that suggested that Marines weren't humanity's best warriors. I just offered a devil's advocate position that supported your statement.
DemetriDominov wrote:Ah, I see where this is going now.
You do? Well, I certainly don't. As I said, YOU were the one that suggested that Marines weren't humanity's best warriors. I just offered a devil's advocate position that supported your statement.
Please don't make me quote myself to prove you wrong. Your devil's advocacy wasn't over my statement, it was on the words I used. Space marines are humanity's best warriors. I've said it three times now and never once have i said otherwise...
Your reading comprehension is going down. Is it bed time for you?
Melissia wrote:As I said, YOU were the one that suggested that Marines weren't humanity's best warriors. I just offered a devil's advocate position that supported your statement.
Your reading comprehension is going down. Is it bed time for you?
Melissia wrote:As I said, YOU were the one that suggested that Marines weren't humanity's best warriors. I just offered a devil's advocate position that supported your statement.
I may be tired, but you for one were not a good devil's advocate either. You misquoted and fraudulently portrayed something I never once said, suggested, or even thought about. That's not devil's advocacy, that's downright deception.
DemetriDominov wrote:why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors
A strawman argument which no-one in this thread agreed with. Therefor, because you made it and no one else did, the argument must belong to you. We don't leave orphaned arguments around here!
DemetriDominov wrote:why can't anyone accept the fact the the SM's are humanities best warriors
A strawman argument which no-one in this thread agreed with. Therefor, because you made it and no one else did, the argument must belong to you. We don't leave orphaned arguments around here!
It was orphaned by you the moment you took it out of context with the argument I've been having with you. A generalization maybe, but one that needed to be said in light of bashing the Astartes which was the reason why I made it and then connected it by saying that all forms of the lore point to the fact that you are vastly discrediting the abilities of the Space Marines. This might be my personal belief, but I think that the video game that was Space Marine was an accurate digital portrayal of what combat as a SM would be like in the 40k universe. Granted, it's a video game, so it can't necessarily be an exact portrayal of a SM, but its about 90% accurate when it comes to the lore. It was inspired by nearly every corner of 40k and is as much a part of the lore as any other source out there now.
Well, first you could argue that a transhuman or a human + would still essentially be a human.
Second, you could argue for the ancient meaning of human, which would encompass any mortal being capable of rationality (so a talking dog with human feelings and thought would essentially be a human).
Thirdly you could bring up the fact that 'Humanity', in this context, doesn't preclude abhumans or transhumans, and refers to the larger association of humankind and kin under the purview of the Imperium.
Finally you could say that there is no essential difference between using mechanical technology to enhance combat capacities, as in the case of Sisters wearing power armour, or using biological technology, as in the Astartes genetical enhancement program. If the Marines are cheating, then the Sisters are cheating, and everyone who doesn't go to war naked.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Well, first you could argue that a transhuman or a human + would still essentially be a human.
Second, you could argue for the ancient meaning of human, which would encompass any mortal being capable of rationality (so a talking dog with human feelings and thought would essentially be a human).
Thirdly you could bring up the fact that 'Humanity', in this context, doesn't preclude abhumans or transhumans, and refers to the larger association of humankind and kin under the purview of the Imperium.
Finally you could say that there is no essential difference between using mechanical technology to enhance combat capacities, as in the case of Sisters wearing power armour, or using biological technology, as in the Astartes genetical enhancement program. If the Marines are cheating, then the Sisters are cheating, and everyone who doesn't go to war naked.
Thank you.. finally some sense.. and some enjoyable humor.
In WWII, the German tanks were wayyyyyyy better then anything the allies had. A panzer could shrug off a hit by the main gun of a Sherman tank...problem for the Germans was that they couldn't field the numbers of panzers that we could of Shermans. So even though the attrition rate among allied forces was pretty bad, the sheer amount of firepower directed against these vastly superior German tanks eventually took its toll (most tank battles saw several Shermans agains 1 or maybe 2 Panzers).
DemetriDominov wrote: Btw... what happened to the Orks during that time Melissia?
They had a really,really good time. The Legion did not even come close to really threatening the ork race or slowing it down in any meaningful way. But they had some really good fights.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:'
Now I have an urge to build an army of streakers... Damn conversion urges..
As they are asexual it really does not matter now does it?
DemetriDominov wrote: Btw... what happened to the Orks during that time Melissia?
They had a really,really good time. The Legion did not even come close to really threatening the ork race or slowing it down in any meaningful way. But they had some really good fights.
Then I'm at a bit of a disconnect then. How could the Orks not be slowed or pushed back by the great crusade's campaigns to unite the Imperium under the Emperor? Seems a bit far fetched to think that the Orks didn't loose some seriously major battles and get it's population decimated in the process.
Decimating the ork population just results in a bunch more Orks, as killing them makes them spore (so does not killing them) and the survivors get bigger and meaner. Any world they spore all over can only be Exterminatus'd.
A sensible approach would be to drive them back into contained areas, and police the edges agaisnt outbreaks, and for all we know that's what they did (there is diddly by way of information that i know of regarding the Orks during the Crusade, other than Big E being almost curbstomped by one ) If there is such info quote/link it, as i'd love to up my ork-lore
Killing one in ten (decimation) still leaves the other nine to bend you over and kick the green out of you They actually WANT you to do this, evolutionally, as it creates far more orks than there were to begin with, plus food and slaves at the same time. You're effectively supporting their supply chain by killing them, unless you utterly destroy every last one of them. If the Crusade was capable of that, there would be no orks all over the entire galaxy
The orks were driven back by the Great Crusade, but the Orks are EVERYWHERE in the galaxy, and the Crusade didn't conquer every square inch of space. I'm sure they lost a good few major battles, and i'm equally sure the Humans did too
The current Imperium is spread widely across the galaxy, but actually controls relatively little space (i grant you that it's also smaller than the glory days, but Humanity didn't own every inch of the Galaxy then either They just claimed they did, just like now. ('Do you have a flaaag? ' - Eddie Izzard)
And yes, they had a great time. The bigger the fight, the tougher the opponent, the more fun the Orks have.
IIRC there was an enormous Whaagh, maybe in answer to all the races rushing out of the way of the Crusade. The Biggest Baddest Boss of All Times (tm) almost killed the Emperor by strangling him, only to be saved by some dude (or Primarch).
Again, IIRC, the Orks were wiped after that boss was killed, like they always are, but it didn't slow them as a race. That's the thing, if anyone expects to win against Orks by wiping them out, then you expect the impossible. Still, EVERYONE can and will beat the Orks, because it only takes one casualty to stop a Whaagh.
So Orks will never cease being a threat, but they won't ever become one on par with the Nids, Chaos or Newcrons.
That is the misconception that the IoM controls all the space inside the area it claims. Which it does not.
As Ascalam says, what are you gonna do to beat them for good? Only complete and total destruction of any world they touch stops them for good. Hell one of the HH books stated it took the number of a few whole Legions to take down one orc world for good. And then honestly unless they killed the world, the orks where back in less then 5 years.
Tghe only way you beat orks for good is to break them and burn the world to the point its a lifeless rock.
1. Bayonet to the neck joint.
2. Laserbolt to the optical sensors.
3. Knocking his helmet off and punching his stupid face in.
4. Shorting out his armor's mechanics, leaving him trapped inside.
5. Shoving a grenade up his back pack exhaust.
6. Shooting him in his only partially armored abdomen.
7. Jabbing a sword between his chest and abdomen plates.
8. Slicing his leg off at the knee, causing him to fall down a hill and break his back..
9. Chopping off his head with an axe.
10. Jabbing a poisoned knife up his armpit.
11. Lighting him on fire, causing his armor to warm up and scald him to death.
12. Shoot straight through him with a big gun.
13. Steal his bolter and shoot 'im in the face.
14. Suicide attack with krak grenades.
15. Bog him down with sheer body mass and then crack his armor open like an egg.
16. Pushing him onto a landmine.
17. Using sheer lasgun fire to overheat his armor and scald him.
18. Firing on his crotch plate with a lasgun a few times; he'll black out from pain.
19. Power weapon to the anything.
20. Powerfist to the anything (preferably not the crotch though).
21. Go nuts with a machete; slash as fast as you can anywhere you can till you hit a weak spot.
22. Strap a bomb to his back.
23. Chuck a bomb at his head.
24. Run around him in circles till he gets dizzy and falls over.
25. Knock his head into his chest with a cricket bat.
I would imagine that guardsmen would stab and shoot like Michelle Rodriguez did in the final battle scene of Battle LA. Best way to deal with space marines if forced in CQC if you ask me.
LoneLictor wrote:Ways Weaklings Wallop Space Marines
1. Bayonet to the neck joint.
2. Laserbolt to the optical sensors.
3. Knocking his helmet off and punching his stupid face in.
4. Shorting out his armor's mechanics, leaving him trapped inside.
5. Shoving a grenade up his back pack exhaust.
6. Shooting him in his only partially armored abdomen.
7. Jabbing a sword between his chest and abdomen plates.
8. Slicing his leg off at the knee, causing him to fall down a hill and break his back..
9. Chopping off his head with an axe.
10. Jabbing a poisoned knife up his armpit.
11. Lighting him on fire, causing his armor to warm up and scald him to death.
12. Shoot straight through him with a big gun.
13. Steal his bolter and shoot 'im in the face.
14. Suicide attack with krak grenades.
15. Bog him down with sheer body mass and then crack his armor open like an egg.
16. Pushing him onto a landmine.
17. Using sheer lasgun fire to overheat his armor and scald him.
18. Firing on his crotch plate with a lasgun a few times; he'll black out from pain.
19. Power weapon to the anything.
20. Powerfist to the anything (preferably not the crotch though).
21. Go nuts with a machete; slash as fast as you can anywhere you can till you hit a weak spot.
22. Strap a bomb to his back.
23. Chuck a bomb at his head.
24. Run around him in circles till he gets dizzy and falls over.
25. Knock his head into his chest with a cricket bat.
All valid methods, as long as you accept throwing 30 of your men's life away just to distract the Astartes enough to set any of those up.
Shouldn't any fighter or bomber on patrol have a field day against Space Marines? I mean they are brightly colored for God's sake, and heroic death in bombing-runs are unheard of (the pilots and crews of them bombers would be the exception).
That is assuming that they'd manage to take out thirty men before dying ,which is not a safe assumption
I would assume that quite safely, especially since there is no means of verification or consequence to the choice.
Shouldn't any fighter or bomber on patrol have a field day against Space Marines? I mean they are brightly colored for God's sake, and heroic death in bombing-runs are unheard of (the pilots and crews of them bombers would be the exception).
It would be the safest engagement strategy, for sure, but Marines have survived heavy bombing before...
LoneLictor wrote:Ways Weaklings Wallop Space Marines
1. Bayonet to the neck joint.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 or 2ish
2. Laserbolt to the optical sensors. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Probably 10
3. Knocking his helmet off and punching his stupid face in.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------5ish
4. Shorting out his armor's mechanics, leaving him trapped inside.-----------------------------------------------------------------------In between 3 and 6
5. Shoving a grenade up his back pack exhaust.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1
6. Shooting him in his only partially armored abdomen.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------5 or 6
7. Jabbing a sword between his chest and abdomen plates.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Let's say 11
8. Slicing his leg off at the knee, causing him to fall down a hill and break his back.-------------------------------------------------1 or 2ish
9. Chopping off his head with an axe.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 or 2ish
10. Jabbing a poisoned knife up his armpit.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1
11. Lighting him on fire, causing his armor to warm up and scald him to death.------------------------------------------------------1
12. Shoot straight through him with a big gun.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------It takes a squad to get a big gun, so 10
13. Steal his bolter and shoot 'im in the face.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------At least 12
14. Suicide attack with krak grenades.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1
15. Bog him down with sheer body mass and then crack his armor open like an egg.----------------------------------------------11
16. Pushing him onto a landmine.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------6
17. Using sheer lasgun fire to overheat his armor and scald him.------------------------------------------------------------------------20
18. Firing on his crotch plate with a lasgun a few times; he'll black out from pain.----------------------------------------------------1
19. Power weapon to the anything.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Takes a squad to get a powerweapon, so 10
20. Powerfist to the anything (preferably not the crotch though). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------Takes a squad to get a powerfist, so 11
21. Go nuts with a machete; slash as fast as you can anywhere you can till you hit a weak spot.-------------------------------1 or 2ish
22. Strap a bomb to his back.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1
23. Chuck a bomb at his head.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1
24. Run around him in circles till he gets dizzy and falls over.------------------------------------------------------------------------------1
25. Knock his head into his chest with a cricket bat.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1
All valid methods, as long as you accept throwing 30 of your men's life away just to distract the Astartes enough to set any of those up.
Next to each item, I've added in how many guardsmen it would take.
It states somewhere in the rulebook that part of CC involves firing your weapon point blank.
Bayonets, if there's enough of them, will eventually find a weak point.
The Eldar CC troops either have face mounted lasers or PW as standard.
Orks are strong.
Tau use their guns point blank and could feasibly hit the SM Sergeant who refuses to wear a helmet round the head with their rifle butt.
Daemons are all warpy and stuff.
'nids are pretty strong.
And 'crons have tech.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:It states somewhere in the rulebook that part of CC involves firing your weapon point blank.
Bayonets, if there's enough of them, will eventually find a weak point.
The Eldar CC troops either have face mounted lasers or PW as standard.
Orks are strong.
Tau use their guns point blank and could feasibly hit the SM Sergeant who refuses to wear a helmet round the head with their rifle butt.
Daemons are all warpy and stuff.
'nids are pretty strong.
And 'crons have tech.
LoneLictor wrote:Ways Weaklings Wallop Space Marines
1. Bayonet to the neck joint.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 or 2ish + 30 waving there arms around trying to distract the Marines 2. Laserbolt to the optical sensors. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Probably 10 If the Marine decides he's tired of life in the service of the Emperor and stays perfectly still while the guardmens discharge their guns 3. Knocking his helmet off and punching his stupid face in.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------5ish Lol trying to remove a vacuum sealed helmet by hand
4. Shorting out his armor's mechanics, leaving him trapped inside.-----------------------------------------------------------------------In between 3 and 6 ... with unknown/unavailable weapons ...
5. Shoving a grenade up his back pack exhaust.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 + 30 waving there arms around trying to distract the Marines
6. Shooting him in his only partially armored abdomen.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------5 or 6 + 30 waving there arms around trying to distract the Marines
7. Jabbing a sword between his chest and abdomen plates.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Let's say 11 Okay random number guy. I'd say 30. See my random number? It's a pretty random number...
8. Slicing his leg off at the knee, causing him to fall down a hill and break his back.-------------------------------------------------1 or 2ish + 30 waving there arms around trying to distract the Marines...
9. Chopping off his head with an axe.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 or 2ish + 30 waving there arms around trying to distract the Marines
10. Jabbing a poisoned knife up his armpit.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1 + 30 waving there arms around trying to distract the Marines
11. Lighting him on fire, causing his armor to warm up and scald him to death.------------------------------------------------------1 + 30 waving there arms around trying to distract the Marines ....
All valid methods, as long as you accept throwing 30 of your men's life away just to distract the Astartes enough to set any of those up.
Next to each item, I've added in how many guardsmen it would take.
And I've added how many Guardsmen would have to randomly die for this to even dumbfound a Marine long enough that any of those situations could be set up.
Also, I could add on the number of Guardsmen executed by Commissars on the eve of the fight against the Astartes... That would bring the number high in the thousands per Marine dead, i'd reckon.
razor5647 wrote:The guard and Imperial Navy don't need to be heroic they just need to DESTROY EVERYTHING and if that works someone gets a regimental citation
Airstrikes tend to not be heroic. So unlike the Ultramarines they should actually be a competent military-force.
Kovnik, you can't just make up numbers. You gotta do scientific research, 3D modeling scenarios and contact Games Workshop before you can even begin thinking about possible numbers. This isn't bingo; this is science.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:It states somewhere in the rulebook that part of CC involves firing your weapon point blank.
Bayonets, if there's enough of them, will eventually find a weak point.
The Eldar CC troops either have face mounted lasers or PW as standard.
Orks are strong.
Tau use their guns point blank and could feasibly hit the SM Sergeant who refuses to wear a helmet round the head with their rifle butt.
Daemons are all warpy and stuff.
'nids are pretty strong.
And 'crons have tech.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:It states somewhere in the rulebook that part of CC involves firing your weapon point blank.
Bayonets, if there's enough of them, will eventually find a weak point.
The Eldar CC troops either have face mounted lasers or PW as standard.
Orks are strong.
Tau use their guns point blank and could feasibly hit the SM Sergeant who refuses to wear a helmet round the head with their rifle butt.
Daemons are all warpy and stuff.
'nids are pretty strong.
And 'crons have tech.
LoneLictor wrote:Kovnik, you can't just make up numbers. You gotta do scientific research, 3D modeling scenarios and contact Games Workshop before you can even begin thinking about possible numbers. This isn't bingo; this is science.
Well, all the 3d modeling scenarios I've ran up till now show that the Marines greatest fear is (or should rightly be) my tricolor, Michaelle-Jean, who can incidentally topple entire formations simply in order to reach her litter box. She is pretty indiscriminate in her wanton destruction, tho, so that's fine...
I think they just swarm them and use sheer weight of numbers, for example in Brother hood of the Snake, and astartes was killed by a mob of Human cultists (but he was injured and not in full armor)
LoneLictor wrote:Kovnik, you can't just make up numbers. You gotta do scientific research, 3D modeling scenarios and contact Games Workshop before you can even begin thinking about possible numbers. This isn't bingo; this is science.
Well, all the 3d modeling scenarios I've ran up till now show that the Marines greatest fear is (or should rightly be) my tricolor, Michaelle-Jean, who can incidentally topple entire formations simply in order to reach her litter box. She is pretty indiscriminate in her wanton destruction, tho, so that's fine...
Your scenarios are way off. Overall, I'd say that your methods are bad and you should feel bad.
-paradrop in with large numbers and meltagun, or hot-shot lasgun to the face. Also autocannons can take them out if caught in the open.
-power swords/claws and a dogpile of sacrificial mortals to run in first.
Eldar have the advantage of moving a lot faster than a space marine ever could, so the elite ones take them out if they have power weapons and hit first. Also their mental powers can kick their ass.
Close combat:
Rig every gaurdsmen and canine unit's flak jackets with demolition charges and grenades. Use ambush and skirmisher tactics (everyone dies in pairs or alone.)
Ranged:
Anything including sticks and stones in the proper amounts really.
Kovnik Obama wrote:According to DoW, Chaos Marines already do that with their cultists... doesn't work that well...
Interestingly, that game mechanic was for suppression, not damage, and it suppressed Marines very well, so no, if it's not already something that's going to damage a Marine it wouldn't work, but it works wonderfully for the mechanic that it was designed in the game to do.
or something like that, there are guardsmen however like the catachans that use monomolecular blades that posses a liquid inner part to give the hit quite the additional force (they have a bigger chance then the regular guardsmen by quite an amount) and a tau fire warrior just wont be able to even turn that long of a rifle (doesn't matter if he is trying to get a point blank shot or a hit with the butt of the rifle) in CQC, but a tau losing in such conditions is just the way it's suppose to be.
We don't leave orphaned arguments around here!