So I've been bouncing around the 40k wiki, and something just occured to me. Aside from the bolter, which is apparently of .998 caliber ( ), little is said about the technical specifications of the weapons of the Imperium, or the 40k world in general. I can understand that, for most of us, this means little, but for a guy who understands and very much enjoys a little technicality, this can be frustrating.
To get this ball rolling, I'll make a quick assesment of the Imperial Autocannon. Based on it's relative size in pictures and drawings, and the ammunition capacity of the Predators that carry it, I'd be willing to wager it's somewhere in the 40-57mm range. For those who don't understand, a shell of 30mm in diameter, with a proper tungsten carbide or DU penetrator and a high rate of fire, is a reliable AT weapon against modern MBTs (T-90, M1 Abrams, Merkavah Mk. IV, Leclerc, ect.). So 40mm or 57mm, the two most common calibers in that range, are FETHING BIG.
GW is very clever with its laziness. Any inconsistencies in range, power, etc. of weapons can be dismissed as "there is little standardization across Forge Worlds and many different patterns exist".
I do agree the Autocannon is probably analogous to the Soviet S-60 anti-aircraft gun (57mm). In the IDF we've successfully used captured S-60's in the anti-tank role, though it was against Syrian armor in the Yom Kippur War.
Harriticus wrote:GW is very clever with its laziness. Any inconsistencies in range, power, etc. of weapons can be dismissed as "there is little standardization across Forge Worlds and many different patterns exist".
I do agree the Autocannon is probably analogous to the Soviet S-60 anti-aircraft gun (57mm). In the IDF we've successfully used captured S-60's in the anti-tank role, though it was against Syrian armor in the Yom Kippur War.
Precisely my thoughts. With 40k-modern adamentite AP, or melta-charge HE, or whatever else you could think of, the autocannon on the Pred could easily fill its role of anti-infantry/light and medium anti-armor.
How about ye olde lascannon? Can we get a physics major in here to tell us the kind of wattage a laser would need to punch through a tank like that?
Given what it can do in fluff, I doubt one needs a degree in physics to see that a Lascannon would turn a modern MBT into swiss cheese. Same applies to Melta and Plasma weapons. Even a standard Lasgun at high-power could probably penetrate Leopard 2/Abrams/Merkava/etc. frontal armor.
Most Imperial tanks are covered in a material known as plasteel, which is described as "futuristic metal". Given this vague description, I think it's a not-so-subtle hint that a Russ has far more protection then our current tanks.
A lasgun would never go through our tanks. Then they Eldar even should be impervious to CC attacks. It is however a better weapon than anything we have because it's without recoil and you can recharge the ammo.
Harriticus wrote:Given what it can do in fluff, I doubt one needs a degree in physics to see that a Lascannon would turn a modern MBT into swiss cheese. Same applies to Melta and Plasma weapons. Even a standard Lasgun at high-power could probably penetrate Leopard 2/Abrams/Merkava/etc. frontal armor.
Most Imperial tanks are covered in a material known as plasteel, which is described as "futuristic metal". Given this vague description, I think it's a not-so-subtle hint that a Russ has far more protection then our current tanks.
Noted. We can take the armor of, say, an M1 Abrams, which is a titanium ceramic composite with layers of depleted uranium. The most mature laser-based weapon currently in use, as far as I know, is the Boeing ATL system, which is essentially a 100-kilowatt oxygen-iodine laser mounted in a ball-turret under the belly of a C-130. Let us say, for argument's sake, that the armor of an LRBT is 10 times as effective as that of the M1 Abrams, we're looking at at least a laser in the 1000-kilowatt range. Probably even higher, since laser weapons are common in the 41st millennium, and the LRBT's armor is probably purpose designed to counter them.
TermiesInARaider wrote:Aside from the bolter, which is apparently of .998 caliber ( ) [...]
There is a model 998 bolter. It has a calibre of 0.75 inches. Heavy bolters have a calibre of 1.00 inch.
GW has been relatively consistent on this sort of stuff, but various licensed products as well as fan interpretations (including much of the stuff posted on Lexicanum) end up twisting the image - especially when people try to mesh different sources that weren't meant to be compatible in the first place. Remember, there is no canon in 40k.
TermiesInARaider wrote:Aside from the bolter, which is apparently of .998 caliber ( ) [...]
There is a model 998 bolter. It has a calibre of 0.75 inches. Heavy bolters have a calibre of 1.00 inch.
GW has been relatively consistent on this sort of stuff, but various licensed products as well as fan interpretations (including much of the stuff posted on Lexicanum) end up twisting the image - especially when people try to mesh different sources that weren't meant to be compatible in the first place. Remember, there is no canon in 40k.
There is a bit more info on a few weapons in the old 2nd ed wargear books and in the Uplifting Primer and Munitorum Manual. However as noted above why pin down exactly how magic future tech actually works when it could come back and bite you in future writing. Much better to leave the mechanics vague and the effects awesome
There is a bit more info on a few weapons in the old 2nd ed wargear books and in the Uplifting Primer and Munitorum Manual. However as noted above why pin down exactly how magic future tech actually works when it could come back and bite you in future writing. Much better to leave the mechanics vague and the effects awesome
It's cool to speculate on the equivalencies to real world weaponry though. Or at least, I'm finding it interesting to read.
There is a bit more info on a few weapons in the old 2nd ed wargear books and in the Uplifting Primer and Munitorum Manual. However as noted above why pin down exactly how magic future tech actually works when it could come back and bite you in future writing. Much better to leave the mechanics vague and the effects awesome
It's cool to speculate on the equivalencies to real world weaponry though. Or at least, I'm finding it interesting to read.
Exactly! This is all just for the lolz.
The Assault Cannon is an easy parallel to make, any 25-35mm gun would do. Normally, those weapons are relegated to aircraft and vehicle mounts, and the primary 35mm rotary cannon in use by NATO forces is the GAU-8, which, with all its mechanisms and its COLOSSAL ammunition drum, is about the size of an old-school VW Beetle. I'd wager that it's only because of year 40,000 technology, that such a colossal weapon could be miniaturized to the point a Terminator could carry it. This also fits with the general level of armor we've extrapolated. if a 35mm cannon has the ability to tackle MBT-grade armor in modern times, that would extend well to the in-game, 40k assault cannon, which, thanks to Rending, is a legitimate threat against transports and other light armor, assuming that 40k transports have armor comparable to modern-day MBTs.
How about ye olde lascannon? Can we get a physics major in here to tell us the kind of wattage a laser would need to punch through a tank like that?
Way more than 1.2 jigawatts.
FULL OF WIN! *high-fives*
Back on topic, the Assault Cannon, now that I think about it, would most likely either use 20mm or 25mm shells. Even a terminator could only carry enough 35mm ammo for scant moments of fire, even with heavy governing on the weapon and a backpack full of ammo.
i've always equated Auto Cannons to 40mm shells due to their multi purpose useage.
Hydras have quad Auto cannon and a 40mm Bofors would be very similar in usage and if chopped down size wise could become man portable (if barely), 57mm is just a bit to big for me.
I've always seen mention that the Battle cannon (and Vanquisher) is a 120mm weapon.
Demolisher cannon id wager is possibly 200mm and loaded with assitance of a powered ram. (They are supposedly like mini rockets with little engines in the rear to propell them, akin to the WW2 SturmTiger shells which were giant Naval Rockets)
Nova cannon would be similar if the same size of a Demolisher Cannon shell just not rocket powered siege shells
Punisher Cannons....... due to their weaker power i would think would be spewing out 50 cal shells but even then powerwise a Stubber (aka the big 50) has more power and AP ability. so im not sure.
Baneblade Battle Cannons could be in the range of 150 or 170mm with rocket assisted shells due to their brute force and power.
Earth Shaker cannons (Basilisk cannon)..... Maybe the traditional 155mm would be their size. (Lexicanum says 132mm with the shell 38 kilograms in weight, which is weird i've never heard of a 132mm)
Collosus mortar = 350mm or 400m, the shells are HUGE.
Heavy Mortars (like on the Gryphon) are probly 100m shells that are hand loaded into the muzzle.
The Nova Cannon (if you mean the one mounted on large starships) lays waste to regions tens of thousands of kilometers across. I think it's a much, much larger shell than 200mm, and probably has anti-matter or something in it.
Psienesis wrote:The Nova Cannon (if you mean the one mounted on large starships) lays waste to regions tens of thousands of kilometers across. I think it's a much, much larger shell than 200mm, and probably has anti-matter or something in it.
Nova Cannon as in the one strapped to the Erradicator Leman Russ
TermiesInARaider wrote:So I've been bouncing around the 40k wiki, and something just occured to me. Aside from the bolter, which is apparently of .998 caliber ( ), little is said about the technical specifications of the weapons of the Imperium, or the 40k world in general. I can understand that, for most of us, this means little, but for a guy who understands and very much enjoys a little technicality, this can be frustrating.
To get this ball rolling, I'll make a quick assesment of the Imperial Autocannon. Based on it's relative size in pictures and drawings, and the ammunition capacity of the Predators that carry it, I'd be willing to wager it's somewhere in the 40-57mm range. For those who don't understand, a shell of 30mm in diameter, with a proper tungsten carbide or DU penetrator and a high rate of fire, is a reliable AT weapon against modern MBTs (T-90, M1 Abrams, Merkavah Mk. IV, Leclerc, ect.). So 40mm or 57mm, the two most common calibers in that range, are FETHING BIG.
I'd reckon its more like 84mm. (See at4 rocket launcer) the shell itself is relatively small and extremely powerful
Psienesis wrote:The Nova Cannon (if you mean the one mounted on large starships) lays waste to regions tens of thousands of kilometers across. I think it's a much, much larger shell than 200mm, and probably has anti-matter or something in it.
Nova Cannon as in the one strapped to the Erradicator Leman Russ
So NOT the big giant cannon on them cruisers that fire timed explosive thingies at the speed of light
Engine of War wrote:
I've always seen mention that the Battle cannon (and Vanquisher) is a 120mm weapon.
It is a lot bigger, although if WH40K wanted realism it would probably be about 150mm in diameter, since it allows one to fire effectively an artillery sized HE round while not making the gun so big AT rounds are 3 meters long.
Demolisher cannon id wager is possibly 200mm and loaded with assitance of a powered ram.
Actually Germans made something like that in WW2, it was something like a 400mm gun that fired rocket propelled HE shells and was meant to level entire buildings. Only like a dozen were ever made, but demolition tanks exist, can't remember any names, but the British use a 165mm gun that fire really slow moving shells.
Nova cannon would be similar if the same size of a Demolisher Cannon shell just not rocket powered siege shells
Fluffwise Nova Cannon is strange, it seems to imply that it is like a small nuclear bomb, but the way it works in game makes it seem more like it fires some sort of thermobaric shell.
Baneblade Battle Cannons could be in the range of 150 or 170mm with rocket assisted shells due to their brute force and power.
Probably close, although I imagine it might be closer to a small battleship cannon so up to 300mm in diameter.
Earth Shaker cannons (Basilisk cannon)..... Maybe the traditional 155mm would be their size. (Lexicanum says 132mm with the shell 38 kilograms in weight, which is weird i've never heard of a 132mm)
Range wise it is about on par with old 155mm guns, not sure about any modern artillery guns about that size.
Collosus mortar = 350mm or 400m, the shells are HUGE.
Yep something like Big Bertha.
Heavy Mortars (like on the Gryphon) are probly 100m shells that are hand loaded into the muzzle.
For the Griffon I feel like the term mortar is a misnomer, most of the fluff makes it seem more like a short howitzer.
Just to say something about the "vagueness" of the fluff in regards to laser, melta and plasma weaponry if we actually knew in detail how it worked, we would be using it today. Baring in mind that the majority of the imperiums tech are fragments of what humanity used during the golden age of tech, a time where much technology would be in our eyes akin to "magic".
vodo40k wrote:Just to say something about the "vagueness" of the fluff in regards to laser, melta and plasma weaponry if we actually knew in detail how it worked, we would be using it today. Baring in mind that the majority of the imperiums tech are fragments of what humanity used during the golden age of tech, a time where much technology would be in our eyes akin to "magic".
Maybe not exactly, but with the right know-how, you can estimate things like wattage for lasers, and assorted other measurements. Not scientific in any regard, but an estimation, for sure.
vodo40k wrote:Just to say something about the "vagueness" of the fluff in regards to laser, melta and plasma weaponry if we actually knew in detail how it worked, we would be using it today. Baring in mind that the majority of the imperiums tech are fragments of what humanity used during the golden age of tech, a time where much technology would be in our eyes akin to "magic".
well for lasers we know how to make one (to a degree)..... the only main issue being they take up as much power as a small city to make lethal to any degree and even more so to tear through thin sheets of metal or plastic.
plasma weapons and metla weapons we don't know how to make and they are for the most part fictional science in some ways mixed with real science to make them kewl.
EDit: im gonna add that we can make a Railgun (yes Tau tech) rather well, but again, power requirments to make it workable are a pain in the bum! notice the large cords attached to the backend, they lead to a giant bank of capacitors that couldn't be fit on somethign like a tank. (maybe a ship but its not powerful enough for naval deployment as im aware right now)
TermiesInARaider wrote:Aside from the bolter, which is apparently of .998 caliber ( ) [...]
There is a model 998 bolter. It has a calibre of 0.75 inches. Heavy bolters have a calibre of 1.00 inch.
GW has been relatively consistent on this sort of stuff, but various licensed products as well as fan interpretations (including much of the stuff posted on Lexicanum) end up twisting the image - especially when people try to mesh different sources that weren't meant to be compatible in the first place. Remember, there is no canon in 40k.
Actually...in the game space marine they said the bolter fired .998 bolts. I think Relic might have done goofed though.
Lynata wrote:but various licensed products as well as fan interpretations (including much of the stuff posted on Lexicanum) end up twisting the image - especially when people try to mesh different sources that weren't meant to be compatible in the first place
I know you love to rage against licensed products, but I DEFY you to show me a single licensed product taht says that boltguns and bolt pistols are 1.00 caliber.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Actually...in the game space marine they said the bolter fired .998 bolts.
I don't remember that. Have a screenshot or something? I recall it saying .75 caliber.
vodo40k wrote:Just to say something about the "vagueness" of the fluff in regards to laser, melta and plasma weaponry if we actually knew in detail how it worked, we would be using it today. Baring in mind that the majority of the imperiums tech are fragments of what humanity used during the golden age of tech, a time where much technology would be in our eyes akin to "magic".
well for lasers we know how to make one (to a degree)..... the only main issue being they take up as much power as a small city to make lethal to any degree and even more so to tear through thin sheets of metal or plastic.
plasma weapons and metla weapons we don't know how to make and they are for the most part fictional science in some ways mixed with real science to make them kewl.
EDit: im gonna add that we can make a Railgun (yes Tau tech) rather well, but again, power requirments to make it workable are a pain in the bum! notice the large cords attached to the backend, they lead to a giant bank of capacitors that couldn't be fit on somethign like a tank. (maybe a ship but its not powerful enough for naval deployment as im aware right now)
With railguns the power is less of an issue than the sheer heat created by the friction of the round firing. After a few shots the barrel pretty much becomes slag and like every third shot gets melted to the barrel.
vodo40k wrote:Just to say something about the "vagueness" of the fluff in regards to laser, melta and plasma weaponry if we actually knew in detail how it worked, we would be using it today. Baring in mind that the majority of the imperiums tech are fragments of what humanity used during the golden age of tech, a time where much technology would be in our eyes akin to "magic".
well for lasers we know how to make one (to a degree)..... the only main issue being they take up as much power as a small city to make lethal to any degree and even more so to tear through thin sheets of metal or plastic.
plasma weapons and metla weapons we don't know how to make and they are for the most part fictional science in some ways mixed with real science to make them kewl.
EDit: im gonna add that we can make a Railgun (yes Tau tech) rather well, but again, power requirments to make it workable are a pain in the bum! notice the large cords attached to the backend, they lead to a giant bank of capacitors that couldn't be fit on somethign like a tank. (maybe a ship but its not powerful enough for naval deployment as im aware right now)
The reason i said the thing about technological "magic" is that its likely the imperium have some kind of ridiculously high yield battery or some kind of localised fusion (SM backpacks work on this principle I think) and i dont think theres any limit to the amount of energy one can inject into a beam. The issue with a railgun as mentioned is the heat generated, for them to become feasible requires the invention of some kind of cheaply disposable "rail" which can be replaced in between battles (anyone whos played the game "EV Nova" knows where im coming from).
vodo40k wrote:The reason i said the thing about technological "magic" is that its likely the imperium have some kind of ridiculously high yield battery or some kind of localised fusion (SM backpacks work on this principle I think) and i dont think theres any limit to the amount of energy one can inject into a beam. The issue with a railgun as mentioned is the heat generated, for them to become feasible requires the invention of some kind of cheaply disposable "rail" which can be replaced in between battles (anyone whos played the game "EV Nova" knows where im coming from).
QFT.
On a related note, the humble lasgun is one of the most amazing pieces of technology in the Imperial Guard, at least as far as modern weaponry is concerned. In-game they are exactly the same profile as an Autogun (probably comparable to various modern 5.56x45 weapons) and are humourously described as 'angry flashlights' due to their low strength and AP.
In the fluff, however, the lasgun is a marvel of technology:
1) It's an energy weapon with the same (or greater) stopping power than a modern kinetic rifle and theoretically no recoil.
2) It has the range of a ballistic weapon (500m) and a similar rate of fire.
3) It has rechargeable power packs that can be charged from almost any energy source (including dropping them in a fire).
4) It is extremely portable and assumed to be comparably the same size and weight as a modern assault rifle.
5) They are considered cheap, easy to manufacture, and mass-produce on a huge scale.
The energy required to satisfy #1 is huge. Modern lasers can probably produce the same effect, over time, they are massive, require huge amounts of power, and only work at very close range due to focussing issues. The energy required to be able to produce a single pulse that can kill a man or (as described in several sources) vitrify sand/punch through flak vests/make holes in rockcrete/etc. is near mind-boggling.
One of the biggest factors is atmospheric interference and attenuation/scattering of the laser beam. The ABL has a huge problem with any form of dust/precipitation/atmospherics preventing it from functioning over large distances and that thing requires an entire aircraft's worth of power generation. To get a coherent beam to maintain the effectiveness of #1 over a distance specified in #2 in anything other than clear, dry air is (almost) physically impossible with what we understand about laser technology.
Talk to any battery manufacturer about #3 and #4 and they will tell you how heavy, cumbersome and annoying the weight and recharging limitations of modern battery technology. To produce a magazine that can power a weapon like a lasgun for 20-30 shots would be incredible and would require batteries with several orders of magnitude greater storage capacity than today. We're talking laptops that last for years before needing a recharge.
#5 just speaks to the impressive manufacturing ability of the Imperium. To make, maintain, and replace quite literally billions of lasguns would definitely require the forge worlds and cyclopean manufactoriums described in the fluff. Those, in themselves, would be a marvel of technology, administration and material usage.
Sorry for the length, I just feel the humble lasgun needs defending every now and then! Everyone seems to be in love with Bolters but, quite frankly, we have the capability to produce one of them today, if someone really wanted to.
I think Relic done goofed there, because the Godwyn-pattern bolter is listed as a .75-cal in pretty much every other publication that mentions this weapon (it's the most common pattern of bolter in use today) and its calibre.
It is most likely that, sometime during the Dark Age of technology, a battery was developed that could store energy within crystal lattices. Thus giving a super dense energy storage system.
The crystals would be able to trap energy in all forms, which explains why the laspacks can be recharged by sunlight and fire in addition to electricity. The packs probably get ruined not because the crystals get burned but because the other parts of the pack get fried.
It may seem far fetched that a simple fire could charge a pack to give multiple energy bursts in the Megawatt range but you would be surprised how much energy is actually in certain substances. Cars barely use 10% of the energy stored in the gas they burn to actually move the car. Everything else is lost as heat, sound, etc...
A way to capture energy with 90%+ efficiency would be an amazing feat and could give outstanding outputs with relativly little input.
Actually, I thought lasgun powerpacks were supposed to be liquid metal or something? That's what I remember from the codexes and stuff anyohw (even lascannon are, at least one of the Dark Angels codex mentioned that...)
Also energy storage is not the only important factor as far as a laser weapon goes (especially if you are favoring a multi-MW heat ray) - the rate at which it charges/discharges that energy - not all batteries discharge the energy they store at the same rates, and you can have a battery that is great on storage but lousy on discharge (if its discharging at say 100-200 watts, your 2 MW laser will only be firing once every few hours...)
It also bears mentioning HOW the laser uses the energy matters as far as output goes. Burning the target is one way, but that actually is the most energy intensive and LEAST efficient way to do it. It can also depend on whether or not the 'laser' actually is a laser (in the sense we understand it, rather than say some sort of funky particle beam weapon.)
As a rule I'd say power packs for lasweapons are already pretty impressive given the versatility with how they can be recharged - they not only managed to pack in the energy storage capability in a rechargable format (that can also discharge that energy quite rapidly), but they also worked in the capability to recharge it from virtually any source of heat or light (Throwing it in a fire or sunlight are only SOME of the options you could use. Setting it next to a fire. Or next to any sort of lamp, or heck even body heat probably would work.. That's an amazing degree of versatility.)
From the various descriptions, I think Las weapons may actually be some sort of Partical projector that simply uses a Laser in its operation. It would explain why the weapon fires a shot instead of being a continious beam.
So it has a laser as part of it, but its not quite that simple.
It takes a bit of handwavium to work, but at least 40k keeps things vague enough so that we don't break reality unlike other sci-fis that seem to enjoy open violation of the laws of physics(and try to explain it away with some rediclous made up junk)
From the various descriptions, I think Las weapons may actually be some sort of Partical projector that simply uses a Laser in its operation. It would explain why the weapon fires a shot instead of being a continious beam.
It fires a shot because it's kinda based on the idea of a blaster from Star Wars.
vodo40k wrote:Just to say something about the "vagueness" of the fluff in regards to laser, melta and plasma weaponry if we actually knew in detail how it worked, we would be using it today. Baring in mind that the majority of the imperiums tech are fragments of what humanity used during the golden age of tech, a time where much technology would be in our eyes akin to "magic".
Maybe not exactly, but with the right know-how, you can estimate things like wattage for lasers, and assorted other measurements. Not scientific in any regard, but an estimation, for sure.
Maybe, but it's impossible to know if a 40K laser is anything like a modern laser, or more like that stuff that shoots out of Cyclops eyes in X-Men.
Unfortunately, there are actually many sources that quote weapon specifications for 40k weapons, and said specifications are generally pathetically bad, as they were based on specifications for vehicles from World War Two! Going by Forge World's standards, even a Land Raider's armor is radically inferior to that of an M1 Abrams tank, autoguns are significantly worse than modern assault rifles, etc.
Fetterkey wrote:Unfortunately, there are actually many sources that quote weapon specifications for 40k weapons, and said specifications are generally pathetically bad, as they were based on specifications for vehicles from World War Two! Going by Forge World's standards, even a Land Raider's armor is radically inferior to that of an M1 Abrams tank, autoguns are significantly worse than modern assault rifles, etc.
I generally just go with the idea that "the people who make the stats don't know about modern military equipment" and justify it fluffwise as non-mechanicus members speculating and being way off because they don't know squat about technology.
Fetterkey wrote:Unfortunately, there are actually many sources that quote weapon specifications for 40k weapons, and said specifications are generally pathetically bad, as they were based on specifications for vehicles from World War Two! Going by Forge World's standards, even a Land Raider's armor is radically inferior to that of an M1 Abrams tank, autoguns are significantly worse than modern assault rifles, etc.
I generally just go with the idea that "the people who make the stats don't know about modern military equipment" and justify it fluffwise as non-mechanicus members speculating and being way off because they don't know squat about technology.
This.
We can make estimations, however. I remember reading a bit of fluff (I can't, for the life of me, recall where), in which a standard IG lasrifle on its standard power setting, could sever the arm of an unarmored human. In terms of modern weaponry, that's equatable to a NATO 12.7x99mm/.50 BMG round. And these things are depicted as pinging harmlessly off of SM power armor, when fired in massed, colonial-era musket-lines. So we can easily assume that Land Raider armor is sufficiently RIDICULOUS for the setting.
IA - a lot of specs on vehicles, well in the one's i'vre read.
Dark Heresey - This gives a lot of detail about equipment, but as other have said there is not 40K canon and these books are made by Fantasy Flight.
If it helps in the munitorium guide says the standard IG las gun is said to work in the 19 Mega-Thule range (i have no idea if that is a real measurement, I did not do well at sceince)
Grey Templar wrote:Almost, SW blasters are plasma weapons(Tibanna gas is energized which creates the plasma)
Las weapons are true direct energy weapons, not matter stream or anything. Pure energy.
There is an individual online who attempts to take the Star Wars movies as canonical evidence of how the actual weaponry/ships/shields literally work in the world and prove them using current physics/electromagnetics/etc.
One of his theories is that since the beam on most energy weapons is clearly not moving at the speed of light, that it doesn't actually represent the actual weapon firing. The red/green streaks are actually artificially added tracers to allow the pilots to have feedback on where they are actually shooting (since ordinarily the weapon would not produce any visible trail).
Kind of an interesting idea and I'd be curious to see how it might fit in with 40k.
To be perfectly honest, some of the weapons in the setting are fairly accurate to stuff we have today. Take the Eversor Assasin's neurogauntlet, as an example. The description of it, how even a single scratch can be lethal due to the poisons inside, isn't far off from some of the more lethal compounds humanity has devised.
Take sarin as an example. QFT from wikipedia, The LD50 of subcutaneously-injected sarin in mice is 172 μg/kg.[15] Treatment measures have been described.[16]
In other words, really freaking lethal.
Edit: A bit of terminology, LD50 is a measurement of toxicity that represents the dose required to produce an even 50% rate of fatality in test subjects. That is, if my high school chemistry class is remembered correctly. YMMV.
Grey Templar wrote:Almost, SW blasters are plasma weapons(Tibanna gas is energized which creates the plasma)
Las weapons are true direct energy weapons, not matter stream or anything. Pure energy.
There are a few other directed energy weapon possibilities for lasgun-type weapons (I clearly think about this too much):
- Ultra short pulse lasers, which don't directly burn through a target but destroy the target layer by layer by stripping off molecules, cutting through materials with little heat and lower power requirements. They also apparently can be used to create "laser induced plasma detonation" on a target or in the air near a target. All this stuff is very small scale, but scaling those up might somehow produce viable weapons. They wouldn't shoot a visible "beam" or a slow-moving "bolt" of light, but the impact on the target might look and feel like a kinetic weapon punching through, so it could be a plausible explanation.
- Electrolasers, which use a laser pulse to create a laser induced plasma channel, an ionized pathway through the air that can conduct electricity easily. Then you send what is essentially a bolt of lightning down this path at your target. Cool as this is, and it would definitely look and sound cool (like an arrow-straight bolt of lightning, complete with thunder, hitting your target) this probably wouldn't work in a vacuum, so I guess we can scratch it off the list, as lascannons and the like appear to work in space.
How the SW blasters work is irrelevant to how they *look* when they're working, which is more important when it comes to the Rule of Cool.
What's cooler: Han Solo running down a hallway, yelling some incoherent warcry and then stopping to emit a solid beam from his Luger-like laser pistol that he sweeps around at the Stormtroopers he's chasing... or Han Solo running down a hallway, yelling some incoherent warcry and loosing random bolts of lethal energy from his Luger-like blaster pistol at the Stormtroopers he's chasing?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
- Electrolasers, which use a laser pulse to create a laser induced plasma channel, an ionized pathway through the air that can conduct electricity easily. Then you send what is essentially a bolt of lightning down this path at your target. Cool as this is, and it would definitely look and sound cool (like an arrow-straight bolt of lightning, complete with thunder, hitting your target) this probably wouldn't work in a vacuum, so I guess we can scratch it off the list, as lascannons and the like appear to work in space.
The 'snap-crack' often used to describe lasgun reports is probably very similar to what you're talking about. Superheating the air around the 'bolt' to create a mini-thunderclap.
Exactly how is up in the air somewhat, but your description seems closer to reasonable explanation than any.
TermiesInARaider wrote:So I've been bouncing around the 40k wiki, and something just occured to me. Aside from the bolter, which is apparently of .998 caliber ( ), little is said about the technical specifications of the weapons of the Imperium, or the 40k world in general. I can understand that, for most of us, this means little, but for a guy who understands and very much enjoys a little technicality, this can be frustrating.
To get this ball rolling, I'll make a quick assesment of the Imperial Autocannon. Based on it's relative size in pictures and drawings, and the ammunition capacity of the Predators that carry it, I'd be willing to wager it's somewhere in the 40-57mm range. For those who don't understand, a shell of 30mm in diameter, with a proper tungsten carbide or DU penetrator and a high rate of fire, is a reliable AT weapon against modern MBTs (T-90, M1 Abrams, Merkavah Mk. IV, Leclerc, ect.). So 40mm or 57mm, the two most common calibers in that range, are FETHING BIG.
No, the bolter is .75 caliber, and the Heavy bolter is around .998 caliber.
From what i know of energy weapons today (modern lasers/ anti - missile systems) and las weapon fluff. a las weapon that fires a beam of directed energy doesn't slice or burn into its target. the energy and heat at the contact site becomes so intense in such a short amount of time that it causes explosive vaporization. The weapon would literally blow the targets arm off or blow a chip off power armor.
Psienesis wrote:How the SW blasters work is irrelevant to how they *look* when they're working, which is more important when it comes to the Rule of Cool.
What's cooler: Han Solo running down a hallway, yelling some incoherent warcry and then stopping to emit a solid beam from his Luger-like laser pistol that he sweeps around at the Stormtroopers he's chasing... or Han Solo running down a hallway, yelling some incoherent warcry and loosing random bolts of lethal energy from his Luger-like blaster pistol at the Stormtroopers he's chasing?
razor5647 wrote:From what i know of energy weapons today (modern lasers/ anti - missile systems) and las weapon fluff. a las weapon that fires a beam of directed energy doesn't slice or burn into its target. the energy and heat at the contact site becomes so intense in such a short amount of time that it causes explosive vaporization. The weapon would literally blow the targets arm off or blow a chip off power armor.
The Ultra short pulse lasers sound a helluva lot like the Necron Gauss tech!
Practically flaying the target to bits!
Speaking of Weapon Specs, and to change the focus a little onto melee weapons,
Power fields in/on hand-to-hand weapons and monomonecular edged blades-
If those could be reproduced in today's wars it would deffinately change the way
battles are fought! We fight at close range, but mainly with kinetic delivery weapons,
mainly just to wound the opposition. If we could say, maul a battle tank with a powerfist,
I think the focus would shift dramatically, especially since most 'wars' are now being
fought in Cities and in enclosed environments (buildings and such). And that defenses
against said weapons would be next to impossible to field en masse! (Since cheap,
mass produced armor is the only likely-hood the majority of soldiers/law enforcement will
ever see!)
You can't tell me that something like a power weapon (or a fist!/ lightning claw) would not
intimediate the hell outta ya!
Back on topic-I suppose such tech could be modern, barring the obvious lack of portable
energy catalyst, we have the capability to harness the way molecules act, right? Generating
an anti-body (for lack of a better term) field that encourages tissues and material to practically
dissolve or at least become 'frail'/soft enough to part with a material blade shouldn't be that hard.
Hells, we could at least manage a vibro-blade or a chainsword to some viable effect! The chain
sword might be a smidge messy though
The bigger question would be how to keep the weapon from suffering from the field being
generated over it and preventing that material from being used in armor against the weapon?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also in response to Power armor resilence;
Having seen and played a little with cermite stone it's practically
super hard, heavy dense stone.
Last time I checked, some stones react rather stubbornly against
heat, explosions and in general to most forms of kinnect driven energy-
and if we're talking about the stuff that the Adaptus Astartes use, it's no
bloody wonder that the armor requires an endo-skeleton/fibre-bundles
to move! That stuff is super heavy! And if in 40k that sort of stone was
further modified/grown and reinforced with something like a crystal lattice
(like diamonds!), it would be everything like it's described to be in the fluff!
Especially if you factor in have hard it is for the IoM to manufacture
equipment from the Golden Age in thier so-called Dark Milleinum!
Bloody Adair wrote:The Ultra short pulse lasers sound a helluva lot like the Necron Gauss tech!
Practically flaying the target to bits!
Speaking of Weapon Specs, and to change the focus a little onto melee weapons,
Power fields in/on hand-to-hand weapons and monomonecular edged blades-
If those could be reproduced in today's wars it would deffinately change the way
battles are fought! We fight at close range, but mainly with kinetic delivery weapons,
mainly just to wound the opposition. If we could say, maul a battle tank with a powerfist,
I think the focus would shift dramatically, especially since most 'wars' are now being
fought in Cities and in enclosed environments (buildings and such). And that defenses
against said weapons would be next to impossible to field en masse! (Since cheap,
mass produced armor is the only likely-hood the majority of soldiers/law enforcement will
ever see!)
You can't tell me that something like a power weapon (or a fist!/ lightning claw) would not
intimediate the hell outta ya!
Back on topic-I suppose such tech could be modern, barring the obvious lack of portable
energy catalyst, we have the capability to harness the way molecules act, right? Generating
an anti-body (for lack of a better term) field that encourages tissues and material to practically
dissolve or at least become 'frail'/soft enough to part with a material blade shouldn't be that hard.
Hells, we could at least manage a vibro-blade or a chainsword to some viable effect! The chain
sword might be a smidge messy though
The bigger question would be how to keep the weapon from suffering from the field being
generated over it and preventing that material from being used in armor against the weapon?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also in response to Power armor resilence;
Having seen and played a little with cermite stone it's practically
super hard, heavy dense stone.
Last time I checked, some stones react rather stubbornly against
heat, explosions and in general to most forms of kinnect driven energy-
and if we're talking about the stuff that the Adaptus Astartes use, it's no
bloody wonder that the armor requires an endo-skeleton/fibre-bundles
to move! That stuff is super heavy! And if in 40k that sort of stone was
further modified/grown and reinforced with something like a crystal lattice
(like diamonds!), it would be everything like it's described to be in the fluff!
Especially if you factor in have hard it is for the IoM to manufacture
equipment from the Golden Age in thier so-called Dark Milleinum!
I think I could sum this up with the simple term, miniaturization. Basically, much of the stuff in 40k is similar to stuff we can make today... Except the stuff we make today takes and entire building worth of generators to power, and another building or two to house equipment and instruments.
Which would make alot of 40k's tech possible, but not perhaps, viable.
Look at the dangerous level radiation that lasers and most other
heavy-duty electronics put out...most of the weapon systems would
give you cancer or degenerative diseases! And while arguebly, we
could insulate and shield, that really only delays the effects of
continued exposure, not contain it. Even if say the user intially resists,
whose to say that sort of contanimenation wouldn't spread to any
children or the like down the line?
A little more on topic, The Gellar field....makes FTL travel possible,
but obviously fails at really protecting the 'cargo' from the warp-worse
the use of that version of FTL travel positively taunts mankind's greatest
foe and invites them to do something about the intrusion!
Bloody Adair wrote:Which would make alot of 40k's tech possible, but not perhaps, viable.
Look at the dangerous level radiation that lasers and most other heavy-duty electronics put out...most of the weapon systems would give you cancer or degenerative diseases! And while arguebly, we could insulate and shield, that really only delays the effects of continued exposure, not contain it. Even if say the user intially resists, whose to say that sort of contanimenation wouldn't spread to any children or the like down the line?
A little more on topic, The Gellar field....makes FTL travel possible, but obviously fails at really protecting the 'cargo' from the warp-worse the use of that version of FTL travel positively taunts mankind's greatest foe and invites them to do something about the intrusion!
I'm... Not sure about the science behind the whole degenerative disease thing. While I've heard a few theories about high intensity electromagnetic fields causing... Something, it's certainly not concrete. As far as I know, though I may be wrong, lasers and assorted electronic devices produce negligible levels of particulate radiation (Alpha particles, Beta particles, or Gamma waves). In fact, I'm lead to believe those theories have been proven false, since, after an unfortunate car accident, I was given extensive EM-field treatment, which, apparently, promoted bone growth, and I'm told it was near-miraculously successful.
And yeah, the Gellar field is entirely the fiction side of sci-fi. xD Alternate dimensions exist only on a theoretical level, when it comes to modern science, and those theories are seldom discussed by most scientists, due to the fact that out side of the most obscure theoretical fields, they have virtually no practical application.
Gentlemen. Consider that in the rules system a human hitting someone else with a chainsaw sword is exactly as effective as shooting them with a laser rifle. A genetically-modified super-soldier hitting someone with a chainsaw sword is less effective than shooting them with his fully-automatic rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
I move to declare all weapons in 40k "absurdly overpowered" by today's standards and move on.
AnomanderRake wrote:Gentlemen. Consider that in the rules system a human hitting someone else with a chainsaw sword is exactly as effective as shooting them with a laser rifle. A genetically-modified super-soldier hitting someone with a chainsaw sword is less effective than shooting them with his fully-automatic rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
I move to declare all weapons in 40k "absurdly overpowered" by today's standards and move on.
It's already been established that the performance in game doesn't match the fluff, which is what we're speaking of. Yes, weapons in 40k are ridiculously overpowered. They need to be, since they face enemies who could hardly be touched by your standard, modern weapon.
Modern assault rifles today would be like a strength 2 on tabletop and in the fluff would tickle an ork. overpowered by our standards is just bearly surviving by 40k standards.
And don't forget we are designing weapons and tactics to fight each other whilst the IOM must consider fighting xeno's races with tech and physiology far beyond our own, not to mention interdementional warp entities.
A space marine boltgun is .998 Cal., the human sized variant is .75 Cal. (Sources - 40k:Space Marine, Dark Heresy, Black Crusade, Inquisitor)
I definately remember in either Gunheads or Gaunts Ghosts, a Leman Russ battle cannon is described as 120mm.
Demolisher cannon would probably be a 165mm short tube demolition gun.
The Baneblade cannon has the feel of a 12-16 inch naval cannon, IMO.
Comparing a lascannon to the Boeing airborne laser system is a very bad matchup, the Boeing laser is designed to shoot down ICBMs and other missiles by heating the warhead/guidance to failure. A lascannon punches through its target in an instant, it would have orders of magnitude more power than any laser currently in existence. Even a lasgun is far more advanced than current laser technology, with a comparitive energy release of a .50 Cal., being able to remove limbs with ease.
Space marine armor is a ceramic-metallic composite, judging from the more "realistic" artwork the pauldrons would be almost 3 inches thick......which even if plain steel would be more than enough to stop anything below 57mm. The other plates seem roughly 1 inch thick, enough to stop 20mm and below easily.
Guard armor is essentially thin sheets of ceramite (space marine armor) formed into shape. Enough to stop small arms fire cold, but nothing more.
GalacticDefender wrote:No, the space marine Boltgun is .75 caliber as well, it is the gun itself that is larger. A space marine Heavy bolter is 100 Cal, however.
1.00 caliber. 100 caliber is... God, I can't think of it off the top of my head, don't wanna bother with the math right now. Big, though, huge. 100-inches. The largest naval cannon in WWII was 18. 100-caliber is nova-cannon big.
GalacticDefender wrote:No, the space marine Boltgun is .75 caliber as well, it is the gun itself that is larger. A space marine Heavy bolter is 100 Cal, however.
1.00 caliber. 100 caliber is... God, I can't think of it off the top of my head, don't wanna bother with the math right now. Big, though, huge. 100-inches. The largest naval cannon in WWII was 18. 100-caliber is nova-cannon big.
I meant 1.00 Cal. As in one inch. That is still HUGE for a bullet though.
GalacticDefender wrote:No, the space marine Boltgun is .75 caliber as well, it is the gun itself that is larger. A space marine Heavy bolter is 100 Cal, however.
1.00 caliber. 100 caliber is... God, I can't think of it off the top of my head, don't wanna bother with the math right now. Big, though, huge. 100-inches. The largest naval cannon in WWII was 18. 100-caliber is nova-cannon big.
I meant 1.00 Cal. As in one inch. That is still HUGE for a bullet though.
Oh, definitely. Around... 23mm, I think? I'm pretty sure there's a Soviet autocannon in 23mm. Either way, fething big.
TermiesInARaider wrote:Oh, definitely. Around... 23mm, I think? I'm pretty sure there's a Soviet autocannon in 23mm. Either way, fething big.
Close enough! 23mm is calibre 0.90.
Pictured: the Soviet cal .90 KS-23 shotgun with shells ...
Its barrel is actually made from a 23mm AA gun. Or rather, barrels that were intended for it, but rejected due to minor production flaws.
[edit] And yes, that "998" was a model number. There is also a "model 482" bolter (see upper left corner).
I've seen non-studio sources claim some pretty silly things about boltguns, but so far I am unaware of any one having raised their calibre yet. Who knows, tho.
Grey Templar wrote:From the various descriptions, I think Las weapons may actually be some sort of Partical projector that simply uses a Laser in its operation. It would explain why the weapon fires a shot instead of being a continious beam.
That's one possibility. One person I knew always suggested that lasguns were actually scaled down lance weapons (based on the old Andy Chambers idea of how lances worked, which was a glorified particle beam weapon or hybrid laser/particle beam weapon, depending on how you interpreted it.)
So it has a laser as part of it, but its not quite that simple.
Well we could just ignore the 'laser' part. Maybe in the 40th millenium it is taken to mean 'raygun'
It takes a bit of handwavium to work, but at least 40k keeps things vague enough so that we don't break reality unlike other sci-fis that seem to enjoy open violation of the laws of physics(and try to explain it away with some rediclous made up junk)
Eh. Matter of opinion I guess. 40K isn't any better or worse than any stuff I've seen or dealt with. The main difference I suspect is that they aren't shy to admit there's magic involved.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TermiesInARaider wrote:I remember reading a bit of fluff (I can't, for the life of me, recall where), in which a standard IG lasrifle on its standard power setting, could sever the arm of an unarmored human. In terms of modern weaponry, that's equatable to a NATO 12.7x99mm/.50 BMG round.
I don't think you need AMR grade firepower to blow off someone's arm (or even blow apart their head.) Modern weapons can easily do that here, here or here At most you'd need the equivalent of a full powered rifle catrridge. The big issue is shattering/severing the bone the arm is attached to (bone being tougher than flesh or muscle.) and if you do it as razor5647 said you wouldn't need much energy. would also permit extensive bleeding, which only helps to kill the target (unless its mechanical or a Necron, and fast healers like Space Marines and Tyranids would probably not suffer as much.) Example described here
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: - Ultra short pulse lasers, which don't directly burn through a target but destroy the target layer by layer by stripping off molecules, cutting through materials with little heat and lower power requirements. They also apparently can be used to create "laser induced plasma detonation" on a target or in the air near a target. All this stuff is very small scale, but scaling those up might somehow produce viable weapons. They wouldn't shoot a visible "beam" or a slow-moving "bolt" of light, but the impact on the target might look and feel like a kinetic weapon punching through, so it could be a plausible explanation.
That's pretty much the hard-scifi view of how a hypothetical laser weapon would work, at least going by this guy. Between that and the atomic rockets site there's some good data on how a hypothetical 'real life' laser weapon might work, assuming the assumptions held out (and as far as I know from my own admittedly scanty research, it would. Medical laser research has gone along similar lines - pulsed lasers to explode rathre than burn.)
TermiesInARaider wrote:So I've been bouncing around the 40k wiki, and something just occured to me. Aside from the bolter, which is apparently of .998 caliber ( ), little is said about the technical specifications of the weapons of the Imperium, or the 40k world in general. I can understand that, for most of us, this means little, but for a guy who understands and very much enjoys a little technicality, this can be frustrating.
To get this ball rolling, I'll make a quick assesment of the Imperial Autocannon. Based on it's relative size in pictures and drawings, and the ammunition capacity of the Predators that carry it, I'd be willing to wager it's somewhere in the 40-57mm range. For those who don't understand, a shell of 30mm in diameter, with a proper tungsten carbide or DU penetrator and a high rate of fire, is a reliable AT weapon against modern MBTs (T-90, M1 Abrams, Merkavah Mk. IV, Leclerc, ect.). So 40mm or 57mm, the two most common calibers in that range, are FETHING BIG.
the Bolters are about a 35mm Explosive Rocket , Autocannons are about a 45-50 mm like you said Considerabley now days 45-50mm cannons can only take on modern MBTS depending on their ammunition == GAU-25 on the A-10 warthog fires 30mmShells that are the size of Wine bottles it can fire either HE ( high explosive ) or High Velocity ( hits the tank , creates a vacum and in all odds pulls the crew out though a tiny hole via preassure ) Size of the Round dosn't really matter , it's the velocity
True, but the cartridge is probably 5-6" long so The Crusader doesn't seem too far off in that dimension. It would also certainly leave a fist-sized hole in most things
The Crusader wrote:If I recall correctly, Heavy Bolter rounds are the size of your average human fist.
I've read that, too, though I cannot exactly recal where.
Either way, I would say that "size" in this context means length - not diameter (as that one is 1 inch). Basically, a little like this, though the rounds don't seem to be scaled too well. Then again ... Heroscale.
The Crusader wrote:If I recall correctly, Heavy Bolter rounds are the size of your average human fist.
I've read that, too, though I cannot exactly recal where.
Either way, I would say that "size" in this context means length - not diameter (as that one is 1 inch). Basically, a little like this, though the rounds don't seem to be scaled too well. Then again ... Heroscale.
They look like slightly bigger versions of these:
Which are .950 JDJ. They're almost 1" calibre but a bit stubbier than the 20mm casing they're constructed from. Makes sense that Heavy Bolters would have a larger casing, however, what with the whole 'rocket powered' and 'explosive penetrator' aspects.
Harker is a beast, regardless. To even hold that weapon is a feat in and of itself. S4 in action!
Kasrkin229 wrote:The Bolters are about a 35mm Explosive Rocket , Autocannons are about a 45-50 mm like you said Considerabley now days 45-50mm cannons can only take on modern MBTS depending on their ammunition == GAU-25 on the A-10 warthog fires 30mmShells that are the size of Wine bottles it can fire either HE ( high explosive ) or High Velocity ( hits the tank , creates a vacum and in all odds pulls the crew out though a tiny hole via preassure ) Size of the Round dosn't really matter , it's the velocity
Autocannons would be around a 30mm, they can't take on full size MBT's in 40k, they shouldn't be compared to something that can in real life. Autocannons are mainly designed for anti-heavy infantry and light vehicles, which would make the GAU-8 a better comparison.
DogOfWar wrote:Harker is a beast, regardless. To even hold that weapon is a feat in and of itself. S4 in action!
Heavy bolters are quite unwieldy, and I assume rather heavy. I certainly wouldn't want to carry one of those.
Although, isn't it true that a lot of heavy weapon teams will have one guy haul one of these monsters around? Not every regiment has them propped on wheels. Harker's specialty doesn't so much seem to be carrying a HB, but rather carrying a HBand its ammunition, and still being more mobile than a two-man-team doing the same (apparently not requiring to set it up on a bipod/tripod).
Just something that I guess a lot of people forget when discussing heavy bolters / Harker!
Lynata wrote:Harker's specialty doesn't so much seem to be carrying a HB, but rather carrying a HBand its ammunition, and still being more mobile than a two-man-team doing the same (apparently not requiring to set it up on a bipod/tripod).
Oh agreed.
The fact that he's not only carrying it by himself, but that he's able to walk-fire the damn thing is incredible. Consider the M2 Browning, a somewhat comparable heavy machine gun:
Weapon - 84lbs
100 rounds - 35lbs
Energy output per shot - 10,000-15,000 ft/lbs
And that's a .50 calibre weapon... Half the diameter of a Heavy Bolter round! Granted it has a greater RoF, and the HB's weight would help to offset the recoil, but still. What's more, 8 foot tall, Power Armoured, super soldiers still can't move and fire Heavy Bolters!
Chuck Norris checks his closet for Gunnery Sergeant Harker...
Considering how bolt weapon mechanics were described in the 2E wargear book (and keeping the gun's extreme weight in mind), recoil likely isn't much of an issue, if one were to go by GW's writings - unless it's off-set by the weapon's sheer rate of fire and it just becomes a matter of accuracy, I guess? Spray-n-pray is good for suppressive fire, but not for actually hitting things.
A lasgun is a little stronger than modern assault rifles, which would probably give it the punching power of a battle rifle.
strength 3
A bolter fires a 75 Cal round that explodes, and this is the difference between strength 3 to 4
strength 4
From lasgun to bolter we can see the giant leap between just one strength, so from that alone we can get a pretty good idea about how powerful the rest of the warhamer weapons are.
pulse rifle
Strength 5
A heavy bolter fires FIST sized rounds that explode
strength 6
Blobpie wrote:A bolter fires a 75 Cal round that explodes, and this is the difference between strength 3 to 4
strength 4
A heavy bolter fires FIST sized rounds that explode
strength 6
Bolters are .75 calibre (as in 3/4 of an inch).
Heavy Bolters are S5 and it's already been addressed that the rounds are most likely similar to the .950 JDJ (a shortened/widened version of the 20x102mm) which are 1 inch in diameter and approximately 5" long. Do you have a source for the 'fist' sized reference?
Mr Morden wrote:Of course in Necromunda heavies could get the skill to allow you to move and fire with a Heavy wepaon such as a heavy bolter - Bulging bcieps IIRC?
Uhh, totally forgot about Necromunda! Right on.
It's possible to do so in GW's Inquisitor RPG as well, unless I've misread its rules just now. Resting a weapon is optional, but doing so nets you an accuracy modifier ... which is quite handy, since if your strength score is below the weapon's weight you take a huge penalty. And heavy bolters are ... heavy.
DogOfWar wrote:Do you have a source for the 'fist' sized reference?
He's referring to the IG Codex. But as has been pointed out before, this likely refers to the projectile's length, not its diameter.
Not a contradiction, if you consider that a fist can be 5 inches wide.
Blobpie wrote:A bolter fires a 75 Cal round that explodes, and this is the difference between strength 3 to 4
strength 4
A heavy bolter fires FIST sized rounds that explode
strength 6
Bolters are .75 calibre (as in 3/4 of an inch).
Heavy Bolters are S5 and it's already been addressed that the rounds are most likely similar to the .950 JDJ (a shortened/widened version of the 20x102mm) which are 1 inch in diameter and approximately 5" long. Do you have a source for the 'fist' sized reference?
DoW
The vanilla marine codex says the heavy bolter fires fist sized bolts
Mr Morden wrote:Of course in Necromunda heavies could get the skill to allow you to move and fire with a Heavy wepaon such as a heavy bolter - Bulging bcieps IIRC?
Uhh, totally forgot about Necromunda! Right on.
It's possible to do so in GW's Inquisitor RPG as well, unless I've misread its rules just now. Resting a weapon is optional, but doing so nets you an accuracy modifier ... which is quite handy, since if your strength score is below the weapon's weight you take a huge penalty. And heavy bolters are ... heavy.
Yeah and IIRC it also carried on into Dark Heresy (etc) as well with pretty much the same effect.
Depending on the edition of 40k you are sourcing suspensors are also an option as they vary in rarety
Blobpie wrote:A bolter fires a 75 Cal round that explodes, and this is the difference between strength 3 to 4
strength 4
A heavy bolter fires FIST sized rounds that explode
strength 6
Bolters are .75 calibre (as in 3/4 of an inch).
Heavy Bolters are S5 and it's already been addressed that the rounds are most likely similar to the .950 JDJ (a shortened/widened version of the 20x102mm) which are 1 inch in diameter and approximately 5" long. Do you have a source for the 'fist' sized reference?
DoW
The vanilla marine codex says the heavy bolter fires fist sized bolts
Must be talking about baby fists, they are the only ones 1" thick. Is that what you meant?
Mr Morden wrote:Yeah and IIRC it also carried on into Dark Heresy (etc) as well with pretty much the same effect.
Though DH then went on to introduce an artificial difference between "civilian" and Astartes bolters, yeah...
DogOfWar wrote:Must be talking about baby fists, they are the only ones 1" thick. Is that what you meant?
Since there seems to be some confusion regarding this bit and my previous posts apparently did not suffice to explain, I've went and drawn y'all a picture.
Mr Morden wrote:Yeah and IIRC it also carried on into Dark Heresy (etc) as well with pretty much the same effect.
Though DH then went on to introduce an artificial difference between "civilian" and Astartes bolters, yeah...
DogOfWar wrote:Must be talking about baby fists, they are the only ones 1" thick. Is that what you meant?
Since there seems to be some confusion regarding this bit and my previous posts apparently did not suffice to explain, I've went and drawn y'all a picture.
Yeah, because if someone said "There's a fist sized lump of gold in that river!" I'll imagine something 1" thick and 4" long.
Or, perhaps I might imagine something the size of a fist? What do you think?
Whoever said they shoot fist sized bolts in the SM codex obviously didn't know what they were talking about or were misinformed. Simple as that.
Well, if you want to take it that literally, a fist-sized bolt shell would have to be round, not elongated like what we see on the miniatures.
I'd agree it was maybe a poor choice of words, but personally, I've never interpreted it any other way than meaning "the projectile is as long as a fist". I might have come to the other conclusion if I didn't know a heavy bolter shell's shape or calibre.
Mr Morden wrote:Yeah and IIRC it also carried on into Dark Heresy (etc) as well with pretty much the same effect.
Though DH then went on to introduce an artificial difference between "civilian" and Astartes bolters, yeah...
Agreed - whilst I would agree that Astartes weapons are physically larger - bolt guns were always bolt guns - although like any other firearm I guess the different makes and models have their own advantages and disadvantages =- bit like comparing a AK47, M16, an Uzi adn HK MP5
Lynata wrote:Well, if you want to take it that literally, a fist-sized bolt shell would have to be round, not elongated like what we see on the miniatures.
I'd agree it was maybe a poor choice of words, but personally, I've never interpreted it any other way than meaning "the projectile is as long as a fist". I might have come to the other conclusion if I didn't know a heavy bolter shell's shape or calibre.
OOooookay. I'll give you that. You make a valid argument.
I'll admit that it does sound cool, though, almost like Marines are punching you with their guns! HURR!
Lynata wrote:Harker's specialty doesn't so much seem to be carrying a HB, but rather carrying a HBand its ammunition, and still being more mobile than a two-man-team doing the same (apparently not requiring to set it up on a bipod/tripod).
Oh agreed.
The fact that he's not only carrying it by himself, but that he's able to walk-fire the damn thing is incredible. Consider the M2 Browning, a somewhat comparable heavy machine gun:
Weapon - 84lbs
100 rounds - 35lbs
Energy output per shot - 10,000-15,000 ft/lbs
And that's a .50 calibre weapon... Half the diameter of a Heavy Bolter round! Granted it has a greater RoF, and the HB's weight would help to offset the recoil, but still. What's more, 8 foot tall, Power Armoured, super soldiers still can't move and fire Heavy Bolters!
Chuck Norris checks his closet for Gunnery Sergeant Harker...
DoW
The Browning doesn't usually have the option for integral gravity-nullifying suspensors
Also Marines probably can move and fire the thing in "real life" mode, however within the confines of the game turn the need to reload, stabilize and brace the thing properly while firing means that their movement is limited. Game rules and simplification =/= "real life".
Mr Morden wrote:although like any other firearm I guess the different makes and models have their own advantages and disadvantages =- bit like comparing a AK47, M16, an Uzi adn HK MP5
Aye, personally I think there's lots of potential for differentiations - especially if you look at that cross-section! Even when they're firing the same bullets, some bolter patterns will be tougher and more reliable than others, yet others will feature unique internal gadgets (did anyone notice that auto-repair system on the picture?) ... it's like the difference between Marine and Sororitas power armour - equal armour protection, yet still very different when you list all their specs.
DogOfWar wrote:I'll admit that it does sound cool, though, almost like Marines are punching you with their guns! HURR!
Harriticus wrote:GW is very clever with its laziness. Any inconsistencies in range, power, etc. of weapons can be dismissed as "there is little standardization across Forge Worlds and many different patterns exist".
I do agree the Autocannon is probably analogous to the Soviet S-60 anti-aircraft gun (57mm). In the IDF we've successfully used captured S-60's in the anti-tank role, though it was against Syrian armor in the Yom Kippur War.
Precisely my thoughts. With 40k-modern adamentite AP, or melta-charge HE, or whatever else you could think of, the autocannon on the Pred could easily fill its role of anti-infantry/light and medium anti-armor.
How about ye olde lascannon? Can we get a physics major in here to tell us the kind of wattage a laser would need to punch through a tank like that?
WOW. The power would be roughly equivalent to what Sydney uses in 2 years.
), little is said about the technical specifications of the weapons of the Imperium, or the 
My bad.
