If took a 2000 point army of the race of your choice and made it real and had it attack your city on earth today. Which army would cause the damage before it was stopped by your countries military?
Zookie wrote:If took a 2000 point army of the race of your choice and made it real and had it attack your city on earth today. Which army would cause the damage before it was stopped by your countries military?
Whatever it is, it's gonna be really mech-heavy. Compaired to modern body armor, a Space Marine's Power Armor is rediculously tough, but even then, it won't survive a smoothbore 120mm round, or a Hellfire missile. If you've got a Land Raider, or Baneblade, though, where the most powerful conventional weapons avalible to modern man are barely dimpling the front glacis, that's another thing entirely. I'd go for three Raiders, two with Sternguard, one with tactical Terminators, and some 5-man tac squads in Razorbacks. Don't quote me on points, though, my codex is across the atlantic.
Zookie wrote:How long do you think they would hold out for?
Hard to say. I'd wager until the tactical nuke came in, and that could be a few hours, to days, to never, depending on whether the government in question A. Had the nukes, and B. Was willing to wait for an evacuation of civilians.
Um, BA. 3 Stormravens, 3 maxed squads of Sang Guard, Sanguinior, 2 5 man Assault Squads in LRR. Perform a DoA on enemies and wipe them out while the 2 Raiders beat enemy units in cover and unleash.melta toting marines against armour. Stormravens.perform seek and.destroy along with the TH Transporters carrying the LRs, flying fast than anything we bave, hovering, carrying troops, better.offensive capabilities. Sanguinior could take enemy squads by himself. Whoever was.in charge is dead.
A two-thousand point strong Kabal could level PG, All the surrounding smaller towns and maybe even go hit Vancouver and leave before the military could mobilize.
I would bring a couple of gaunts. The Swedish army would lose. Plus killing them would be considered racist and intolerant so the gaunts could just go loose without anyone doing anything.
Pretty sure it's no contest: common sense suggests that Daemons or Nids will win this. Do we have any weapons that can actually cause serious hurt to Daemons? Probably not. Nids? They'll just grow more and run practically without numbers-2000 points allows for a lot of tervigons and gaunts.
timetowaste85 wrote:Pretty sure it's no contest: common sense suggests that Daemons or Nids will win this. Do we have any weapons that can actually cause serious hurt to Daemons? Probably not. Nids? They'll just grow more and run practically without numbers-2000 points allows for a lot of tervigons and gaunts.
We have our undying faith in the god-emperor. That will see off any foul warp beasts
You guys are being ridiculous. There's nothing that a coordinated airstrike couldn't immediately blow up with no damage taken in return. The only serious entry here is nurgle, but that's just because all you need is one plague bearer to hypothetically kill off the whole world with disease (hypothetically).
The only way that a small handful of future soldiers would be able to survive is if they had absolutely no way of being detected. For example, 2,000 points of lictors might do the job, as they are undetectable by contemporary means. Likewise, an army of 2,000 points of Marbo could do it, because no matter where you try to attack, they're always right behind you.
Meanwhile, a squad of baneblades is three tomahawk missiles away from a tragic end, and eldrad and his fancy ride would be ended with a single patriot missile.
Honestly Tyranids would do the most damage. A 2k list of tervigons that chain spawn more of them would do a ton of damage before stopped. However 2k points worth of genestealer cult would take the planet.
It also depends where this is happening. Some say that 2k of tervigons and gaunts would be rolled up with missile strikes...But what if the hive ship arrives, crashes, and they are in tunnels under the ground? Burrowing and digging their way towards the centres of biomass (our cities) before erupting from the sewers in a tide of chitin and violence, consuming all before them? It'd be easy enough to deal with these things if they appeared on a plain out near the Great Dividing and started moving towards the nearest city, but thats not how it would necessarily play out.
Ailaros wrote:You guys are being ridiculous. There's nothing that a coordinated airstrike couldn't immediately blow up with no damage taken in return. The only serious entry here is nurgle, but that's just because all you need is one plague bearer to hypothetically kill off the whole world with disease (hypothetically).
The only way that a small handful of future soldiers would be able to survive is if they had absolutely no way of being detected. For example, 2,000 points of lictors might do the job, as they are undetectable by contemporary means. Likewise, an army of 2,000 points of Marbo could do it, because no matter where you try to attack, they're always right behind you.
Meanwhile, a squad of baneblades is three tomahawk missiles away from a tragic end, and eldrad and his fancy ride would be ended with a single patriot missile.
Ummm... You mad, bro?
Regardless, that's a matter of personal interpretation. Do you think conventional explosives can bust through bonded adamentite, thermoplas, and Emperor-knows what else they use as armor in the 41st millennium? If you do, it's no skin off my back, but I'm mostly lead to believe not.
Ailaros wrote:
Meanwhile, a squad of baneblades is three tomahawk missiles away from a tragic end, and eldrad and his fancy ride would be ended with a single patriot missile.
I disagree, only because Baneblades routinely survive 40k orbital bombardments, airstrikes, and nuclear detonations. All of these things possess far more joules of energy than a mere cruise missile.
Ailaros wrote:
Meanwhile, a squad of baneblades is three tomahawk missiles away from a tragic end, and eldrad and his fancy ride would be ended with a single patriot missile.
I disagree, only because Baneblades routinely survive 40k orbital bombardments, airstrikes, and nuclear detonations. All of these things possess far more joules of energy than a mere cruise missile.
Ailaros wrote: Meanwhile, a squad of baneblades is three tomahawk missiles away from a tragic end, and eldrad and his fancy ride would be ended with a single patriot missile.
I disagree, only because Baneblades routinely survive 40k orbital bombardments, airstrikes, and nuclear detonations. All of these things possess far more joules of energy than a mere cruise missile.
How about a bunker buster instead :3
Perhaps if that bunker buster generated the same number of joules as a particle-beam from space* then it might be able to at least penetrate the armor.
*It doesn't - 40k Lance batteries often are used to break open the crust of a planet.
Chaos daemons, they appear all of the sudden, slaughter thousands before the military arrives, and even if they are defeated any survivors who fought them may very well be corrupted.
Ailaros wrote:
Meanwhile, a squad of baneblades is three tomahawk missiles away from a tragic end, and eldrad and his fancy ride would be ended with a single patriot missile.
I disagree, only because Baneblades routinely survive 40k orbital bombardments, airstrikes, and nuclear detonations. All of these things possess far more joules of energy than a mere cruise missile.
How about a bunker buster instead :3
Perhaps if that bunker buster generated the same number of joules as a particle-beam from space* then it might be able to at least penetrate the armor.
*It doesn't - 40k Lance batteries often are used to break open the crust of a planet.
Ailaros wrote:
Meanwhile, a squad of baneblades is three tomahawk missiles away from a tragic end, and eldrad and his fancy ride would be ended with a single patriot missile.
I disagree, only because Baneblades routinely survive 40k orbital bombardments, airstrikes, and nuclear detonations. All of these things possess far more joules of energy than a mere cruise missile.
How about a bunker buster instead :3
Perhaps if that bunker buster generated the same number of joules as a particle-beam from space* then it might be able to at least penetrate the armor.
*It doesn't - 40k Lance batteries often are used to break open the crust of a planet.
Ailaros wrote:You guys are being ridiculous. There's nothing that a coordinated airstrike couldn't immediately blow up with no damage taken in return. The only serious entry here is nurgle, but that's just because all you need is one plague bearer to hypothetically kill off the whole world with disease (hypothetically).
The only way that a small handful of future soldiers would be able to survive is if they had absolutely no way of being detected. For example, 2,000 points of lictors might do the job, as they are undetectable by contemporary means. Likewise, an army of 2,000 points of Marbo could do it, because no matter where you try to attack, they're always right behind you.
Meanwhile, a squad of baneblades is three tomahawk missiles away from a tragic end, and eldrad and his fancy ride would be ended with a single patriot missile.
Eldrad would see the missiles coming and have them blasted from the sky long before they got near him. There's also a very real chance that the ridiculously quick reflexes and reaction speed of the Eldar coupled with their ultra fast and ultra maneuverable skimmers would allow them to easily dodge out of the way of any incoming missiles. Sure, there's no real way that 2k points of Eldar are gonna be conquering the planet, at least not in one go, but they'd definitely do TONS of damage. Remember, our militaries would have no idea of the capabilities of ANY future army, and I think it would be quite a while before even the first skimmer hit the ground.
Of course, Eldar would never set out to conquer a planet with a handful of warriors anyways. They'd rather attack with overwhelming force extremely suddenly and wipe us out before we can react.
Just my opinion, but I think that either our level of tech and competence is being overestimated, or theirs is being underestimated. It's quite possible that 3 tomahawk missiles would do little more than scratch the surface of a bane blade, considering they stand up to way bigger booms than anything we have.
1 Reaver Titan with 2 arm mounted.Laser Blasters (the 3 shot Str D weapon) and 1 hull mounted one (1250pts) and a Warhound Titan with 2 Turbo Laser Destructors (2 shot Str D.weapons).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And.for the record I can think of many ways a Nid army can win. They would be designed to slaughter us. Immunity to our weapons, camoflage carapaces, etc. Basically anything they did to the Tau in Hive Fleet Gorgon. But we are at a disadvantage because the Tau had battlesuits to detect them and Kroot to make them change, as well as a greater ability to change weaponry suit as Pulse weapons, Missile Pods, Plasma, old ammo, new prototypes. We have bullets.
2k points of necrons. we don't have much to stand against such advance technology.
doomscythes would fly circles around any jets we have and immortals would be immune to all small arms fire. and even if you destroy one he will prob just repair because you didn't cause enough severe damage to make him phase out.
scarabs and wraiths would assassinate any commanders we have with ease.
GamzaTheChaos wrote:2k points of necrons. we don't have much to stand against such advance technology.
doomscythes would fly circles around any jets we have and immortals would be immune to all small arms fire. and even if you destroy one he will prob just repair because you didn't cause enough severe damage to make him phase out.
scarabs and wraiths would assassinate any commanders we have with ease.
basically we would never stop necrons.
Not to mention the engines from the necron aircraft will drive our own soldiers insane. Yeah, necrons will screw us over. Hell, all it takes is one c'tan shard, and game over. The earth is now his playground and buffet.
Each sheds spores as they live and die, and each is a man-sized sneaky psychotic coward, who comes out at night to do unspeakable things...
And if they do get killed, that's ok! The spores generated from their corpses will make even more grots, and maybe even orks!
Orkses always wins a foight!
Utter mayhem, and once their dead which in fairness won't be as long as other factions, they release spores and the endless cycle of death repeats until one day we toast the planet or orks win. It might be 10 years it might be 10000. But in the end. We WILL lose one way or the other.
GimbleMuggernaught wrote:Eldrad would see the missiles coming and have them blasted from the sky long before they got near him.
Eldrad was responsible for 911
*disclaimer, because Eldrad is known to be a dick, making dick moves that takes eons to fruit.
Convincing a gullible Mon-Keigh to blow himself and thousands of other Mon-Keigh up? Definitely has Eldrad written all over it. Turns out the war on terror should have been a war on a fictional alien race.
That really depends... are we allowed to bring in super heavies?
If I could have access to the apoc codex I'd say the imperial guard, a few bandblade or shadowsword tanks would not be easy to halt.
Sticking to regular rules though, I'd say orks. You can have a lot of ork boys for 2000 points, and seeing how defenseless most cities are ork boys are about all you'd need.
You all have forgotten one very critical army, the Necrons.
2k worth of those buggers could annihilate a city no problem. Talk of airstikes and coordinated counter attacks could be ended by advanced signal jamming and hacking. Thats not even mentioning the damage their Gauss weapons could do. They don't even need to re-supply or have to worry about ammo or food.
If the denizens of the 40k universe have such a hard time dealing with these guys what chance do we have?
Orks and Daemons have the best chance. Tyranids although they go back into the Hive Mind can be stopped if they are wiped out. Orks die and just go poof and spores come out and make more orks, they are comparable to body builders in strength and size. Daemons because well they are un-killable and can just flood onto Earth as much as as their God wants them to.
But a single stormraven could wipe a country albeit very slowly. They can fly out of our atmospher so fly outside drop into the atmosphere to shoot then fly back out. Repeat and slowly you will destroy towns.
redkeyboard wrote: Orks necrons and Daemons have the best chance. Tyranids although they go back into the Hive Mind can be stopped if they are wiped out. Orks die and just go poof and spores come out and make more orks, they are comparable to body builders in strength and size. Daemons because well they are un-killable and can just flood onto Earth as much as as their God wants them to.
But a single stormraven could wipe a country albeit very slowly. They can fly out of our atmospher so fly outside drop into the atmosphere to shoot then fly back out. Repeat and slowly you will destroy towns.
Why does everyone keep forgetting about necrons? All they have to do is deploy one C'tan in each city, and that's it.
Also, that stormraven thing would work...if we didn't have SAM sites, ballistic missiles, fighter jets...
redkeyboard wrote: Orks necrons and Daemons have the best chance. Tyranids although they go back into the Hive Mind can be stopped if they are wiped out. Orks die and just go poof and spores come out and make more orks, they are comparable to body builders in strength and size. Daemons because well they are un-killable and can just flood onto Earth as much as as their God wants them to.
But a single stormraven could wipe a country albeit very slowly. They can fly out of our atmospher so fly outside drop into the atmosphere to shoot then fly back out. Repeat and slowly you will destroy towns.
Why does everyone keep forgetting about necrons? All they have to do is deploy one C'tan in each city, and that's it.
Also, that stormraven thing would work...if we didn't have SAM sites, ballistic missiles, fighter jets...
No one is forgetting Necrons. They just feel that Orks have a better chance. I would have to agree. Necrons have a finite amount of troops, where as Orks are gonna have the spore thing, which as established means that we would be locked in eternal war, until we die. Sure a C'tan shard in each major city would be brutal, but with enough space in between major cities, and with air support I think eventually they could be defeated, especially if humanity united.
I believe that Beijing is the only city that could survive Nurgle's "blessings". It's already so filthy and scummy they would hardly notice a difference. Maybe the sky would look a little greener but it's not like the water or food could get worse!
Personally I think a genestealer cult is about the only thing that could seriously endanger our planet. People seem to forget how frighteningly impressive weaponry our age possesses. Baneblades or Landraiders may be tough, but considering that the LRBcannon is about equal in strength to any other tanks cannon (at S8), then that would make other spezialized anti-tank or anti bunker weapons about S9 or S10, and when fired from an aircraft so far away or above that any ground force can't even see them I don't think they will stand a chance. The thing is that wh40k fights a different fight then we do at the time, meaning that whereas power fists are surely impressive, they are useless against missiles fired from miles and miles away.
To get to the question: 2000 points isn't a lot, but I guess either a genestealer cult would be bad, or some necrons since they would freak the s*** out of everyone Alternatively Sternguard deep striking via droppod into any countries capital government building and going nuts would cause major havoc...
2000 points of any 40K army could pretty much take out my entire country, hell we still use turboprop aircraft developed in the 60s (thank you USA for your donations). I wouldn't be surprised if our heaviest weapons were light artillery only. Heavier stuff isn't that useful when your main domestic threat are guerrillas hiding in the mountain rain forests.
Of course, after that they'd be stuck on an island with no transpo (depending on army build). So I guess it depends whether the UN decides to nuke what's left of my country and save the planet (unlikely) or they bicker long enough for ork spores / tyranid bioforms / nurgle plague to spread across the sea (much more likely)
redkeyboard wrote: Orks necrons and Daemons have the best chance. Tyranids although they go back into the Hive Mind can be stopped if they are wiped out. Orks die and just go poof and spores come out and make more orks, they are comparable to body builders in strength and size. Daemons because well they are un-killable and can just flood onto Earth as much as as their God wants them to.
But a single stormraven could wipe a country albeit very slowly. They can fly out of our atmospher so fly outside drop into the atmosphere to shoot then fly back out. Repeat and slowly you will destroy towns.
Why does everyone keep forgetting about necrons? All they have to do is deploy one C'tan in each city, and that's it.
Also, that stormraven thing would work...if we didn't have SAM sites, ballistic missiles, fighter jets...
No one is forgetting Necrons. They just feel that Orks have a better chance. I would have to agree. Necrons have a finite amount of troops, where as Orks are gonna have the spore thing, which as established means that we would be locked in eternal war, until we die. Sure a C'tan shard in each major city would be brutal, but with enough space in between major cities, and with air support I think eventually they could be defeated, especially if humanity united.
You are forgetting that C'tan can warp reality. They may be underwhelming in the game, but fluff=/=rules. A C'tan shard in the fluff is still a force to be reckoned with; those missiles and aircraft won't even come near him, and even then, it will take a lot. And if the necrons unleash a slightly more intact C'tan (unlikely, but possible), then Earth is automatically gone.
Why does everyone keep thinking that our cannons are S8? Imperial weapons are a lot stronger and more advanced than ours; our tank cannons are probably closer to S6 or S7.
redkeyboard wrote: Orks necrons and Daemons have the best chance. Tyranids although they go back into the Hive Mind can be stopped if they are wiped out. Orks die and just go poof and spores come out and make more orks, they are comparable to body builders in strength and size. Daemons because well they are un-killable and can just flood onto Earth as much as as their God wants them to.
But a single stormraven could wipe a country albeit very slowly. They can fly out of our atmospher so fly outside drop into the atmosphere to shoot then fly back out. Repeat and slowly you will destroy towns.
Why does everyone keep forgetting about necrons? All they have to do is deploy one C'tan in each city, and that's it.
Also, that stormraven thing would work...if we didn't have SAM sites, ballistic missiles, fighter jets...
Yes it would work providing the Stormraven only stayed in the atmosphere for a short perioid of time. It hears of trouble it zips back out of the atmosphere where fhighter jets cannot go. Outr fighter jets could not take one out if it was on the edge of the atmosphere as they are not built to go there.
redkeyboard wrote: Orks necrons and Daemons have the best chance. Tyranids although they go back into the Hive Mind can be stopped if they are wiped out. Orks die and just go poof and spores come out and make more orks, they are comparable to body builders in strength and size. Daemons because well they are un-killable and can just flood onto Earth as much as as their God wants them to.
But a single stormraven could wipe a country albeit very slowly. They can fly out of our atmospher so fly outside drop into the atmosphere to shoot then fly back out. Repeat and slowly you will destroy towns.
Why does everyone keep forgetting about necrons? All they have to do is deploy one C'tan in each city, and that's it.
Also, that stormraven thing would work...if we didn't have SAM sites, ballistic missiles, fighter jets...
Yes it would work providing the Stormraven only stayed in the atmosphere for a short perioid of time. It hears of trouble it zips back out of the atmosphere where fhighter jets cannot go. Outr fighter jets could not take one out if it was on the edge of the atmosphere as they are not built to go there.
Missles on the other hand can, and as soon as the SR is detected there will immediately be a fighter task force after it.
And still, SAMs.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why does everyone keep thinking that our cannons are S8? Imperial weapons are a lot stronger and more advanced than ours; our tank cannons are probably closer to S6 or S7.
How do you come to the conclusion that regular imperial weaponry is that much stronger than ours?
Judging by the size of the shells and the craters and damage done by imperial weapons and then comparing those to ours, they don't seem that much more advanced. Even disregarding the damage done in the game, the fluff gives a pretty good description of the firepower of different weapons and that shows that they are very similar. The auto cannon (which is S7) seems to compare very much to the 25mm cannon or the 40mm "machine gun". From what I recall, the damage done by regular LRBT cannon also seems very close to our average tank cannon (I'm by no means an expert on that stuff), ie. they can rip through a couple of walls, blast out good chunks of earth and ruin every soldiers day. I think the Gaunts Ghosts books showed quite a bit of tank action in one or two of the books and there the LRBT cannons were never described as anything more powerful than our cannons. Assuming that a rather powerful tank cannon is S8, we can imagine that stronger weapons of our time (not even nukes, but all kinds of long range missiles and bombs that create waaaay large impact craters and cause by far more damage than the average tank cannon) most be above S8.
By that logic, even most super heavies should go down after getting hit by enough bombs and missiles. Fact is, considering that we are not threatened by hoards of all consuming alien monsters or the like, we are extremely "well" armed. I think the only 2000p army that could really be a threat would have to operate in a very discrete matter, as in a genestealer cult, or some nurgle guys who spread plagues we can't find a cure for or some other crazy stuff. But regular tanks? no
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why does everyone keep thinking that our cannons are S8? Imperial weapons are a lot stronger and more advanced than ours; our tank cannons are probably closer to S6 or S7.
How do you come to the conclusion that regular imperial weaponry is that much stronger than ours?
Judging by the size of the shells and the craters and damage done by imperial weapons and then comparing those to ours, they don't seem that much more advanced. Even disregarding the damage done in the game, the fluff gives a pretty good description of the firepower of different weapons and that shows that they are very similar. The auto cannon (which is S7) seems to compare very much to the 25mm cannon or the 40mm "machine gun". From what I recall, the damage done by regular LRBT cannon also seems very close to our average tank cannon (I'm by no means an expert on that stuff), ie. they can rip through a couple of walls, blast out good chunks of earth and ruin every soldiers day. I think the Gaunts Ghosts books showed quite a bit of tank action in one or two of the books and there the LRBT cannons were never described as anything more powerful than our cannons. Assuming that a rather powerful tank cannon is S8, we can imagine that stronger weapons of our time (not even nukes, but all kinds of long range missiles and bombs that create waaaay large impact craters and cause by far more damage than the average tank cannon) most be above S8.
By that logic, even most super heavies should go down after getting hit by enough bombs and missiles. Fact is, considering that we are not threatened by hoards of all consuming alien monsters or the like, we are extremely "well" armed. I think the only 2000p army that could really be a threat would have to operate in a very discrete matter, as in a genestealer cult, or some nurgle guys who spread plagues we can't find a cure for or some other crazy stuff. But regular tanks? no
I've always pointed out something too. I can have 10 IG or 5 Space Marines walk into a sniper fire from Ratlings, Scouts, IG whatever, and if I am lucky enough to hit at all, I may not wound at all, and then they get a save. Most real life snipers I know or know of, would have no issue dropping someone with one shot. When I play 40K I can fire from the same tank over and over, and not hit anything, because of scatter. Where while I was in the Navy, we could drop a shell almost pin point on something moving 3 miles away. So even if somehow our normal guns were just under a lasegun somehow, we would rake up more hits. And if a guardman in a muscle shirt gets a save from weapon fire from a lasegun, then I am sure we can outgun them.
As for would would cause more damage, Nurgel, anything else in this area would gut stuck mid forest (hey they have to roll a dice to go over a patch of trees) and there are a lot of hunters, and National Guard and Army bases in this area. I mean I alone own 13 firearms, so it's not like every neigbourhood could not take up arms.
But you forget our stuff and there's is made of different things. Their shells may only bust down a plastered wall but brick and mortar is demolished. Likewise our weapons may do damage to concrete but can't touch adamantium.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why does everyone keep thinking that our cannons are S8? Imperial weapons are a lot stronger and more advanced than ours; our tank cannons are probably closer to S6 or S7.
How do you come to the conclusion that regular imperial weaponry is that much stronger than ours? Judging by the size of the shells and the craters and damage done by imperial weapons and then comparing those to ours, they don't seem that much more advanced. Even disregarding the damage done in the game, the fluff gives a pretty good description of the firepower of different weapons and that shows that they are very similar. The auto cannon (which is S7) seems to compare very much to the 25mm cannon or the 40mm "machine gun". From what I recall, the damage done by regular LRBT cannon also seems very close to our average tank cannon (I'm by no means an expert on that stuff), ie. they can rip through a couple of walls, blast out good chunks of earth and ruin every soldiers day. I think the Gaunts Ghosts books showed quite a bit of tank action in one or two of the books and there the LRBT cannons were never described as anything more powerful than our cannons. Assuming that a rather powerful tank cannon is S8, we can imagine that stronger weapons of our time (not even nukes, but all kinds of long range missiles and bombs that create waaaay large impact craters and cause by far more damage than the average tank cannon) most be above S8.
By that logic, even most super heavies should go down after getting hit by enough bombs and missiles. Fact is, considering that we are not threatened by hoards of all consuming alien monsters or the like, we are extremely "well" armed. I think the only 2000p army that could really be a threat would have to operate in a very discrete matter, as in a genestealer cult, or some nurgle guys who spread plagues we can't find a cure for or some other crazy stuff. But regular tanks? no
If I remeber correctly bolts that boltguns fire are 30mm so I find it hard to belive the auto cannon is only comparable to a 20mm cannon or 40mm "machine gun".
Spam lords of change. They'll rip a hole into the warp and bring in more daemons anyway and we'll all be drowning in daemons who will snort heartily at our weaponry.
Deadshot wrote:But you forget our stuff and there's is made of different things. Their shells may only bust down a plastered wall but brick and mortar is demolished. Likewise our weapons may do damage to concrete but can't touch adamantium.
This. I did a thread on this a while ago. Basically, the durability of various materials is what REALLY makes warfare in the 41st millennium so far removed from that of the present. If they only had superior weapons, we could still swamp them in numbers and in tactics, which I'm inclined to say are generally inferior to what we have now. But when your 120mm smoothbore tank shells, and your guided missiles, and your bombs are barely dimpling that Land Raider, there's really nothing you can do about it. And yes, even the standard IG lasgun is a force to be reckoned with; I've read fluff where a single lasbolt on the standard power setting can sever an arm. That's damage comparable to a 12.7x99mm/.50 BMG round. Their STANDARD ISSUE ASSAULT WEAPON has power comparable to one of the most devastating man-portable (and by man portable, I mean able to be carried by humans, not hand-held. ) weapons available. .50 caliber rounds can penetrate through sheets of steel, cinderblock walls, and still pop a man's head like an egg in a microwave at ranges of up to two and a half miles. And these things can barely touch SM power armor when fired in massed ranks, like colonial-era muskets. There's just no comparison.
Granted, for all the mayhem they could cause, there's still the nuclear option. Though the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to say even that may not be enough.
Okay, time to get off my . 2000 points Nurgline daemons, orks, or genestealers have a real and distinct potential to actually kill us all.
I doubt a modern missile would find a Land Raider completely impenetrable, though I do agree that it would not have nearly the effect you see against modern tanks. I mean they have a marine hanging out of the hatch shooting a MultiMelta, the force could easily pass through that hatch and mess up the electronics, spill some coffee, etc And that also brings up the question: Even if the blast can't pierce the armor, wouldn't the pressure on the tank blow some tracks? I mean my friend had a land raider get immobilized from hitting a tree. I'm sure a massive missile could do as much damage as a ing tree!
felixander wrote:I doubt a modern missile would find a Land Raider completely impenetrable, though I do agree that it would not have nearly the effect you see against modern tanks. I mean they have a marine hanging out of the hatch shooting a MultiMelta, the force could easily pass through that hatch and mess up the electronics, spill some coffee, etc And that also brings up the question: Even if the blast can't pierce the armor, wouldn't the pressure on the tank blow some tracks? I mean my friend had a land raider get immobilized from hitting a tree. I'm sure a massive missile could do as much damage as a ing tree!
That's the rules/fluff divergence, there.
As for the whole tracks thing, it's certainly possible. In WWII, the British used what were essentially sticks of dynamite in a sock, covered in tar, as an impromptu AT weapon. Flank around, slap it onto the tracks, and boom, your Panzer is now a stationary artillery piece, vulnerable to further attacks. But while truly massive munitions, (2000-pound JDAMs, Tomahawk missiles, and the like) may have more success, we've established that the .50 caliber rounds that cut people in half are bouncing off power armor as though they were .22s. Basically, as stated earlier, SM are modern tanks. That kind of armor needs 30mm DU shells, Hellfire or Maverick missiles, 1000 pound bombs, or 120mm APFSDS rounds to crack. So already, all of the usual 'tactical' assets used to deal with armor have been accounted for by standard SM infantry. So it's going to take strategic assets, munitions and weapons that are deployed by the generals looking at the overview of the entire battle, to even think about harming them. We're talking about 155mm artillery barrages, carpet bombings, cluster missiles... You get the picture.
This.
Our current level of tech could do nothing against pretty much any of the "advanced races".
However, I think a non-mechanized IG army could be stopped, as could Orks. Maybe even 'nids if they don't have one of those gaunt-spawners.
My all reserve nid army. Trygons, mawlocks, ravenors, lictors and such. Our tremor sensing technology is horribly inefficient for this kind of purpose and no weapons with which to deal with a burrowed army. The civilian damage would be catastrophic.
Deadshot wrote:But you forget our stuff and there's is made of different things. Their shells may only bust down a plastered wall but brick and mortar is demolished. Likewise our weapons may do damage to concrete but can't touch adamantium.
This. I did a thread on this a while ago. Basically, the durability of various materials is what REALLY makes warfare in the 41st millennium so far removed from that of the present. If they only had superior weapons, we could still swamp them in numbers and in tactics, which I'm inclined to say are generally inferior to what we have now. But when your 120mm smoothbore tank shells, and your guided missiles, and your bombs are barely dimpling that Land Raider, there's really nothing you can do about it. And yes, even the standard IG lasgun is a force to be reckoned with; I've read fluff where a single lasbolt on the standard power setting can sever an arm. That's damage comparable to a 12.7x99mm/.50 BMG round. Their STANDARD ISSUE ASSAULT WEAPON has power comparable to one of the most devastating man-portable (and by man portable, I mean able to be carried by humans, not hand-held. ) weapons available. .50 caliber rounds can penetrate through sheets of steel, cinderblock walls, and still pop a man's head like an egg in a microwave at ranges of up to two and a half miles. And these things can barely touch SM power armor when fired in massed ranks, like colonial-era muskets. There's just no comparison.
But they are never set in what a lasgun can do. In some books (there was a Space Wolf one that comes to mind) where the laspistol does nothing when they find a wild animal, and everyone laughs at thegy for ever having it. Some books a lasround will blow your head off, and in some you can take two to he chest, and still fight for 5 minuntes, because you wont bleed out. Stubbers are more or less what we use now? Lets look at table top, razor wire ca nstop a bolt round, and a tshirt can stop a lasround (Cath Guard) I can have three snipers fire, hit 50% of the time, and then wound on a 4+ so another 50% just to wound (even a model with no armor save or wearing anything) But I know I can tae a 30/30 sit in a tree, and hit a deer 9 out of 10 times with no sniper training. And drop that deer with a shot. People like to bring up "well they have this type of armor and this time" Guard wear flack armor, and part o a Space Marine armor is made in a kilm so it's backed to form, and has all of those joints and a Lasgun can stop a Termie...Orks wear no armor or scapes picked up, and drive pick up trucks. I understand the all might Space Marine has power armor, but when he is charged by Guard with rifles and knives and an still be killed, then there is no reason 5 rednecks with deer rifles hiding in a tree and getting cover a 4+ cover save, cant kill some Marines. Hell, they still use shotguns for scouts and guard, most police cars carry a shotfgun in them.
Deadshot wrote:But you forget our stuff and there's is made of different things. Their shells may only bust down a plastered wall but brick and mortar is demolished. Likewise our weapons may do damage to concrete but can't touch adamantium.
This. I did a thread on this a while ago. Basically, the durability of various materials is what REALLY makes warfare in the 41st millennium so far removed from that of the present. If they only had superior weapons, we could still swamp them in numbers and in tactics, which I'm inclined to say are generally inferior to what we have now. But when your 120mm smoothbore tank shells, and your guided missiles, and your bombs are barely dimpling that Land Raider, there's really nothing you can do about it. And yes, even the standard IG lasgun is a force to be reckoned with; I've read fluff where a single lasbolt on the standard power setting can sever an arm. That's damage comparable to a 12.7x99mm/.50 BMG round. Their STANDARD ISSUE ASSAULT WEAPON has power comparable to one of the most devastating man-portable (and by man portable, I mean able to be carried by humans, not hand-held. ) weapons available. .50 caliber rounds can penetrate through sheets of steel, cinderblock walls, and still pop a man's head like an egg in a microwave at ranges of up to two and a half miles. And these things can barely touch SM power armor when fired in massed ranks, like colonial-era muskets. There's just no comparison.
But they are never set in what a lasgun can do. In some books (there was a Space Wolf one that comes to mind) where the laspistol does nothing when they find a wild animal, and everyone laughs at thegy for ever having it. Some books a lasround will blow your head off, and in some you can take two to he chest, and still fight for 5 minuntes, because you wont bleed out. Stubbers are more or less what we use now? Lets look at table top, razor wire ca nstop a bolt round, and a tshirt can stop a lasround (Cath Guard) I can have three snipers fire, hit 50% of the time, and then wound on a 4+ so another 50% just to wound (even a model with no armor save or wearing anything) But I know I can tae a 30/30 sit in a tree, and hit a deer 9 out of 10 times with no sniper training. And drop that deer with a shot. People like to bring up "well they have this type of armor and this time" Guard wear flack armor, and part o a Space Marine armor is made in a kilm so it's backed to form, and has all of those joints and a Lasgun can stop a Termie...Orks wear no armor or scapes picked up, and drive pick up trucks. I understand the all might Space Marine has power armor, but when he is charged by Guard with rifles and knives and an still be killed, then there is no reason 5 rednecks with deer rifles hiding in a tree and getting cover a 4+ cover save, cant kill some Marines. Hell, they still use shotguns for scouts and guard, most police cars carry a shotfgun in them.
Well, that's mainly because there is no such thing as canon in 40k. No matter where you found that piece of fluff, there's a BL writer who's contradicted it. That, and making comparisons from game to fluff is slightly rediculous, because if things operated in game the way they did in fluff, the game wouldn't be fun.
This. I did a thread on this a while ago. Basically, the durability of various materials is what REALLY makes warfare in the 41st millennium so far removed from that of the present. If they only had superior weapons, we could still swamp them in numbers and in tactics, which I'm inclined to say are generally inferior to what we have now. But when your 120mm smoothbore tank shells, and your guided missiles, and your bombs are barely dimpling that Land Raider, there's really nothing you can do about it. And yes, even the standard IG lasgun is a force to be reckoned with; I've read fluff where a single lasbolt on the standard power setting can sever an arm. That's damage comparable to a 12.7x99mm/.50 BMG round. Their STANDARD ISSUE ASSAULT WEAPON has power comparable to one of the most devastating man-portable (and by man portable, I mean able to be carried by humans, not hand-held. ) weapons available. .50 caliber rounds can penetrate through sheets of steel, cinderblock walls, and still pop a man's head like an egg in a microwave at ranges of up to two and a half miles. And these things can barely touch SM power armor when fired in massed ranks, like colonial-era muskets. There's just no comparison.
But they are never set in what a lasgun can do. In some books (there was a Space Wolf one that comes to mind) where the laspistol does nothing when they find a wild animal, and everyone laughs at thegy for ever having it. Some books a lasround will blow your head off, and in some you can take two to he chest, and still fight for 5 minuntes, because you wont bleed out. Stubbers are more or less what we use now? Lets look at table top, razor wire ca nstop a bolt round, and a tshirt can stop a lasround (Cath Guard) I can have three snipers fire, hit 50% of the time, and then wound on a 4+ so another 50% just to wound (even a model with no armor save or wearing anything) But I know I can tae a 30/30 sit in a tree, and hit a deer 9 out of 10 times with no sniper training. And drop that deer with a shot. People like to bring up "well they have this type of armor and this time" Guard wear flack armor, and part o a Space Marine armor is made in a kilm so it's backed to form, and has all of those joints and a Lasgun can stop a Termie...Orks wear no armor or scapes picked up, and drive pick up trucks. I understand the all might Space Marine has power armor, but when he is charged by Guard with rifles and knives and an still be killed, then there is no reason 5 rednecks with deer rifles hiding in a tree and getting cover a 4+ cover save, cant kill some Marines. Hell, they still use shotguns for scouts and guard, most police cars carry a shotfgun in them.
Well, that's mainly because there is no such thing as canon in 40k. No matter where you found that piece of fluff, there's a BL writer who's contradicted it. That, and making comparisons from game to fluff is slightly rediculous, because if things operated in game the way they did in fluff, the game wouldn't be fun.
Thats what I am getting at. We say "Well they can do this, or that" but we dont have something set in stone to go off of. I mean really, if you read a Caphis Cain novel, he could show up on his own and take over this planet. If we go by table top, then things are an even playing field for us. But you say we cant use table top rules, but the question did not state where we would base the power level off of.
But okay, we will go by books then, but you said yourself people keep changing things with no cannon, so then what are we going to use as the standered rule? The fact they said their armor is made of some metal, that really, we dont know how stronge it is...sure Marvel comics say it can not be broken, bent, or whatever, but in 40K how do we know it's not normal steel? After all Star Wars likes to rename platic and glass and steel.
So I will go off of what i know for sure. In game and books, they still use shotguns ad combat knives, and both of which have been used to kill a Marine in armor. I own a shotgun and a knife, so I must have the means to kill a Space Marine.
RicBlasko wrote:
So I will go off of what i know for sure. In game and books, they still use shotguns ad combat knives, and both of which have been used to kill a Marine in armor. I own a shotgun and a knife, so I must have the means to kill a Space Marine.
If you want to go by that train of thought then a Space Marine will shoot you before you get in range to use your shotgun and will kill you before you swing your knife at his squishyjoints. On average it'll take 18 Imperial Guardsmen with knifes to take down a single space marine or 9 with shotguns shooting (18 * .5 to hit * .333 to wound * .3333 to pass armor). I'd put more weight on the redneck ring with buck rifles than alone I'd agree though that if you attacked my redneck hometown in MD with Tac Squads you'd see a lot more resistance than one might expect. Granted if you go by how powerful the space marines in the books they would be able to out range, out shoot, and spot you earlier even if you know the woods and hills there.
Do you seriously think the emperor's finest, soldiers who are created solely to wage war and have been fighting for +100 years, will let themselves get ambushed by a bunch of hillbillies?
Just...no.
And 1900 points of guardsmen.
Suddenly armed uprisings start simultaneously in every organized country in the world, killing the governments off and destabilizing regions before anyone have time to react, with Creed becoming the military dictator proclaiming the message of the Emperor.
A modern army could lol stomp a 2000 point 40k army. Lasguns are about as powerful as an AK47 or M16. A single division consists of about 10,000 to 30,000 soldiers that have guns equivalent in strength to lasguns, and either no armor save or a 6+. A 2,000 point army would be shocking at first, but would quickly be destroyed in a head to head fight.
The 2 entries for most potentially damaging would be as follows.
#2 A chaos cult and/or alpha legion blending into the indigenous population.
#1 A genestealer cult. 5th edition army list would be the parasite of martoux for HQ, and 6 large units of genestealers with 6 broodlords for troops. Infect humans, hide, and hide single genestealers in shipping containers sending them to all corners of the earth.
schadenfreude wrote:A modern army could lol stomp a 2000 point 40k army. Lasguns are about as powerful as an AK47 or M16. A single division consists of about 10,000 to 30,000 soldiers that have guns equivalent in strength to lasguns, and either no armor save or a 6+. A 2,000 point army would be shocking at first, but would quickly be destroyed in a head to head fight.
The 2 entries for most potentially damaging would be as follows.
#2 A chaos cult and/or alpha legion blending into the indigenous population.
#1 A genestealer cult. 5th edition army list would be the parasite of martoux for HQ, and 6 large units of genestealers with 6 broodlords for troops. Infect humans, hide, and hide single genestealers in shipping containers sending them to all corners of the earth.
No, they couldn't
Lasguns are about as powerful as a .50 machine gun and seldom run out of ammo. Flak armor is actually pretty good compared to our body armor. The reason why it's so bad in game is because everyone else has better weapons. Not to mention that the IG have better tanks and air support.
And seriously, you think a 2k necron or ork army will get crushed?
Actually, all a Nid force would need would be Parasite. It single handedly crushed a world by infecting guardsmen. All it needs is a populated area like London, NYC or LA and then the city would be.gone in a day. It can chew through Chimeras so cars.will be.no protection.
schadenfreude wrote:A modern army could lol stomp a 2000 point 40k army. Lasguns are about as powerful as an AK47 or M16. A single division consists of about 10,000 to 30,000 soldiers that have guns equivalent in strength to lasguns, and either no armor save or a 6+. A 2,000 point army would be shocking at first, but would quickly be destroyed in a head to head fight.
The 2 entries for most potentially damaging would be as follows.
#2 A chaos cult and/or alpha legion blending into the indigenous population.
#1 A genestealer cult. 5th edition army list would be the parasite of martoux for HQ, and 6 large units of genestealers with 6 broodlords for troops. Infect humans, hide, and hide single genestealers in shipping containers sending them to all corners of the earth.
No, they couldn't
Lasguns are about as powerful as a .50 machine gun and seldom run out of ammo.
Flak armor is actually pretty good compared to our body armor. The reason why it's so bad in game is because everyone else has better weapons.
Not to mention that the IG have better tanks and air support.
And seriously, you think a 2k necron or ork army will get crushed?
A single salvo from an Ohio class SSBN should do it, say 160 or so nuclear warheads each one being 30 to 50 times larger than the ones we used in ww2.
Heavy stubbers are 50 cal machine guns. If you look at old school fluff stubbers=modern firearms. Stub pistols and stubbers have the same str as laspistols and lasguns.
schadenfreude wrote:A modern army could lol stomp a 2000 point 40k army. Lasguns are about as powerful as an AK47 or M16. A single division consists of about 10,000 to 30,000 soldiers that have guns equivalent in strength to lasguns, and either no armor save or a 6+. A 2,000 point army would be shocking at first, but would quickly be destroyed in a head to head fight.
The 2 entries for most potentially damaging would be as follows.
#2 A chaos cult and/or alpha legion blending into the indigenous population.
#1 A genestealer cult. 5th edition army list would be the parasite of martoux for HQ, and 6 large units of genestealers with 6 broodlords for troops. Infect humans, hide, and hide single genestealers in shipping containers sending them to all corners of the earth.
No, they couldn't
Lasguns are about as powerful as a .50 machine gun and seldom run out of ammo.
Flak armor is actually pretty good compared to our body armor. The reason why it's so bad in game is because everyone else has better weapons.
Not to mention that the IG have better tanks and air support.
And seriously, you think a 2k necron or ork army will get crushed?
A single salvo from an Ohio class SSBN should do it, say 160 or so nuclear warheads each one being 30 to 50 times larger than the ones we used in ww2.
Heavy stubbers are 50 cal machine guns. If you look at old school fluff stubbers=modern firearms. Stub pistols and stubbers have the same str as laspistols and lasguns.
Modern fluff says otherwise.
As another poster had stated, a hit from a lasgun is capable of severing an arm, which is today capable of only .50 rounds or better.
And no, 160 warheads will not do it. Against orks maybe (as the spores would be vaporized), but not crons.
You will never have a chance to fire them.
Lots of wraiths, lords and anything else with a phase shifter.
Most of our normal weapons would merely bounce of their armored hides and any WMD or air strike or what have you they just phase out wait till its over phase back in and resume killing.
Necrons, with heaps of scarabs spawned by tomb spyders, catacomb command barge, imotekh stormlord and vargard obyron. Heaps of warriors and catacomb command barge with a royal court of crypteks. Lychguard wit h dispersion shields would absolutely pone us. nuff said
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And seriously, you think a 2k necron or ork army will get crushed?
Ork yes, I am fairly sure scientist will figure out they reproduce by spores at one point and then order to torch the corpses as well as the ground where they died.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And seriously, you think a 2k necron or ork army will get crushed?
Ork yes, I am fairly sure scientist will figure out they reproduce by spores at one point and then order to torch the corpses as well as the ground where they died.
Ok, fair enough. I think I already said a few nukes will burn them easily anyway (provided any government is insane enough to saturate their own country with radiation).
No nukes, don't forget we Earthlings are not bound by the Imperium law concerning Xenos, the Orks will be studied, people will know their weakness and how to get rid of them and we will create anti-Orks weapons, in the long run we'd pump out something to properly dispose of them.
Bobthehero wrote:No nukes, don't forget we Earthlings are not bound by the Imperium law concerning Xenos, the Orks will be studied, people will know their weakness and how to get rid of them and we will create anti-Orks weapons, in the long run we'd pump out something to properly dispose of them.
they can make more.
. 2000 points Nurgline daemons, orks, or genestealers have a real and distinct potential to actually kill us all. 
ing tree!