Thats my question! If a unit of wraiths assault through terrain, do they attack at I1?

Not if assaulting through difficult, but yes if assaulting through dangerous.

That doesnt make sense...because...dangerous makes you roll for difficult, also they auto pass dangerous tests...

Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult. Moving through dangerous terrain does not force a difficult terrain test unless the terrain is in fact, also difficult.

Second thing - the reason they are at I1 when moving through dangerous terrain is that taking the test is what triggers the lower initiative. While their special rule allows them to auto-pass the test, they still have to take the test (technically), thus putting them at I1. I don't think it's in the spirit of the rule, but it's certainly the RAW.

As mentioned, only if assaulting through Dangerous Terrain. In order to not be reduced, Wraithflight would have to be worded similarly to the C'Tan's Immune to Natural Law rule.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult. Moving through dangerous terrain does not force a difficult terrain test unless the terrain is in fact, also difficult.

Second thing - the reason they are at I1 when moving through dangerous terrain is that taking the test is what triggers the lower initiative. While their special rule allows them to auto-pass the test, they still have to take the test (technically), thus putting them at I1. I don't think it's in the spirit of the rule, but it's certainly the RAW.

Not true. If they auto-pass the test they don't have to roll. See the brotherhood banner thread that's in the top 10 right now.

Whilst they don't have to roll, the fact they passed the test must first assume that the test was taken, and therefore reduces them to I1.

Fair enough - I misremembered the wording.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

So Spore Cloud (which causes a Dangerous Terrain test) is Difficult Terrain as well?
Please note, that Spore Cloud is not mentioned in the FAQ, it's Spre Cloud that is not terrain.

Happyjew wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

So Spore Cloud (which causes a Dangerous Terrain test) is Difficult Terrain as well?
Please note, that Spore Cloud is not mentioned in the FAQ, it's Spre Cloud that is not terrain.

No, Spore Cloud simply causes a Dangerous Terrain test - its not creating Dangerous Terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult. Moving through dangerous terrain does not force a difficult terrain test unless the terrain is in fact, also difficult.

Second thing - the reason they are at I1 when moving through dangerous terrain is that taking the test is what triggers the lower initiative. While their special rule allows them to auto-pass the test, they still have to take the test (technically), thus putting them at I1. I don't think it's in the spirit of the rule, but it's certainly the RAW.

Not true. If they auto-pass the test they don't have to roll. See the brotherhood banner thread that's in the top 10 right now.

This is still in contention thanks to the differing interpretations of the word automatically.

It's automatic, but the test was taken. Therefore they are reduced to I1. Taking a test causes them to be I1.

axeman1n wrote:It's automatic, but the test was taken. Therefore they are reduced to I1. Taking a test causes them to be I1.

Agreed. I misremembered and thought the rules said "if a die is rolled" which wouldn't happen with an automatic pass.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but what about "never slowed by" necessarily means you don't have to take the difficult terrain test, couldn't it equally mean that you take the test but regardless of the result can move full speed?

This whole testing/auto-passing/ignoring really is a big can of worms once you open it.

As above. The rules tell us that if an assaulting unit takes a diffficult terrain test or dangerous terrain test in its assault move it strikes at I1. The Wraith rules say they ignore/are never slowed by difficult terrain, but for dangerous they just tell us the wraiths auto-pass the test. Not that they ignore it or don't take the test at all.

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

That's not my recollection.

Mannahnin wrote:As above. The rules tell us that if an assaulting unit takes a difficult terrain test or dangerous terrain test in its assault move it strikes at I1. The Wraith rules say they ignore/are never slowed by difficult terrain, but for dangerous they just tell us the wraiths auto-pass the test. Not that they ignore it or don't take the test at all.

Ignore=/=are never slowed by ie a unit that roles a 6 on difficult terrain weren't slowed by it but they still moved through it. any way since in both cases the rule does not say they ignore it but rather they auto pass/never slowed by it, that would seem to indicate that their initiative is reduced, other-wise why would it not just say they ignore the terrain entirely?

Mannahnin wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

That's not my recollection.

Page 13 BGB: Terrain Types

"There are three general classes of terrain: clear, difficult and impassable.

* Clear Terrain can be moved across without any penalty, and generally covers most of the battlefield.

*Difficult Terrain slows down models wishing to move through it, and can sometimes be dangerous to models passing through it.

*Impassable Terrain cannot be moved across or into."

and then further down "Difficult terrain includes areas of ... If the terrain feature includes hazards such as ... then it may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous terrain"

Neither 100% guarantees that all Dangerous Terrain must also be difficult, but they don't really talk about terrain being classed as dangerous outside of that context.

Ja; the possibility exists in the rules for dangerous terrain which isn't also difficult, but the examples in the rulebook are both.

NL-Cirrus- Their rule for difficult functionally does ignore it. If they're never slowed, there is no need to roll dice, and thus no test is being taken.

The direct implication of auto-passing the dangerous test, OTOH, is that they're still taking one.

Nice, I come back to defend my points and Mann and Avatar did it for me already

*Mental note - Next time don't try to simplify an explaination for the sake of brevity in YMDC

Mannahnin wrote:Ja; the possibility exists in the rules for dangerous terrain which isn't also difficult, but the examples in the rulebook are both.

Re-read P.13, Left Column, 8th Graph,2nd sentence. "If the terrain feature includes hazards... then it may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous"

#1 There needs to be a difficult terrain feature.

#2 Said terrain feature "may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous"

All dangerous terrain, by default, is difficult.

Dangerous terrain is by definition also difficult.

Initiative is the "speed" at which your unit attacks. Reducing initiative is slowing the model. The adverse effect of difficult terrain is slowing the models movement and initiative. Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain and automatically pass the DT test.

Therefore wraiths are not reduced in initiative, or movement by dangerous terrain (which is considered difficult terrain) even if they take a DT test and automatically pass it.

That is not quite true ND.

P.36, Left Column, 2nd Graph states "if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test... their initiative value lowered to 1..."

Auto passing the test is not the same as not having to take the test.

They had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test and they auto-passed, thus they are reduced to I1

DeathReaper wrote:That is not quite true ND.

P.36, Left Column, 2nd Graph states "if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test... their initiative value lowered to 1..."

Auto passing the test is not the same as not having to take the test.

They had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test and they auto-passed, thus they are reduced to I1

My point is that reducing initiative is slowing the wraith. Wraiths are never slowed by DT.

Nemesor Dave wrote:My point is that reducing initiative is slowing the wraith. Wraiths are never slowed by DT.

"Slowing" in this context refers to their movement, not their initiative in CC.

Spetulhu wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:My point is that reducing initiative is slowing the wraith. Wraiths are never slowed by DT.

"Slowing" in this context refers to their movement, not their initiative in CC.

I completely disagree.

Disagree all you like, but the rules say they are dropped to I1, because they made a Dangerous terrain test (And auto-passed)

In Short:

Mannahnin wrote:The Wraith rules say they ignore/are never slowed by difficult terrain, but for dangerous they just tell us the wraiths auto-pass the test. Not that they ignore it or don't take the test at all.

This.

DeathReaper wrote:slowed is fluff, and not actual rules.

so disagree all you like, but the rules say they are dropped to I1, because they made a Dangerous terrain test (And auto-passed)

So you're saying that the part "Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain," is fluff and does nothing?

So you're saying that the part "Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain," is fluff and does nothing?

it does plenty. Not having to roll for difficult for assault is a huge bonus already. You know how many failed charges I've done with GK/orks/daemons thanks to poor rolling? It's cost me games before not getting that charge in. It also makes you immune to tremor staffs which is quite handy in a necron v necron fight but does not stop you from getting to I1.

It's the same thing as GK banner as well since it assumes a test was taken at the very least, you can psy hood block or wolf talismen block the activation. If it's just "on" you may then argue that it doesn't work.

p. 36 BRB Assaulting Through Cover

"The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers."

How can you read this, and still think wraiths are "slowed" to initiative 1 when attacking through dangerous terrain?

The word "slowly" there is fluff.
Where is your basis for saying that initiative is speed?

That fluff is saying that because it takes longer to get there, your opponent gets essentially free shots.

rigeld2 wrote:The word "slowly" there is fluff.
Where is your basis for saying that initiative is speed?

That fluff is saying that because it takes longer to get there, your opponent gets essentially free shots.

p. 6 Brb: Initiative. "How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first."

Unfortunately GW has blended fluff with the rule in this case. You cannot just choose to ignore half the rule regarding difficult terrain because it uses the word "slow". Taken in context with all descriptions of Initiative, and attacking through cover it becomes quite clear to anyone with common sense.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The word "slowly" there is fluff.
Where is your basis for saying that initiative is speed?

That fluff is saying that because it takes longer to get there, your opponent gets essentially free shots.

p. 6 Brb: Initiative. "How alert a creature is and how quickly it reacts is shown by its initiative. In close combat, faster creatures gain a massive advantage over slower ones because they get to strike first."

Unfortunately GW has blended fluff with the rule in this case. You cannot just choose to ignore half the rule regarding difficult terrain because it uses the word "slow". Taken in context with all descriptions of Initiative, and attacking through cover it becomes quite clear to anyone with common sense.

Difficult terrain I agree they don't get set to I1.
Dangerous terrain however - they took the test. I read the wraiths as relating to movement - initiative is normally mentioned specifically.
I see your point, however. HIWPI it doesnt matter - 2 isn't that big a difference from 1. I'd let the Necron player have it.

Edit: late to the party.

yeah, I accept this fact:

Assault through Difficult Terrain?: You ignore it.
Assault through Dangerous Terrain?: You roll the test, and are I1
Assault through both?: Only roll Dangerous, and your I1

Wraiths never roll for dangerous terrain. The test is automatically passed. This has nothing to do with the initiative drop, but it should be stated to avoid any misunderstandings.

I thought it was difficult they ignore? let me read it....

TO THE CODEX!!!

EDIT AFTER READING:

ohhhh, okay, so I amend the above:

Diff. terrain: totally ignore
Dang: No test, still I1
both: just Init 1

Nemesor Dave wrote:p. 36 BRB Assaulting Through Cover

"The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers."

How can you read this, and still think wraiths are "slowed" to initiative 1 when attacking through dangerous terrain?

Because the Underlined is fluff.

And the Italic text is the rules.

DeathReaper wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:p. 36 BRB Assaulting Through Cover

"The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative value lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers."

How can you read this, and still think wraiths are "slowed" to initiative 1 when attacking through dangerous terrain?

Because the Underlined is fluff.

And the Italic text is the rules.

The BRB defines initiative as the speed - slow or fast by which models attack. It should be no difficult step of logic to reach to say that if a rule is lowering initiative, it is slowing the model.

There is no hard "slow" definition, therefore reducing a models initiative obviously qualifies as slowing it. You've read the relevant rules. Now it's not hard to understand that lowering initiative is slowing the model which goes against the "not slowed by" rule.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The BRB defines initiative as the speed - slow or fast by which models attack. It should be no difficult step of logic to reach to say that if a rule is lowering initiative, it is slowing the model.

The fluff definition, sure.

There is no hard "slow" definition, therefore reducing a models initiative obviously qualifies as slowing it. You've read the relevant rules. Now it's not hard to understand that lowering initiative is slowing the model which goes against the "not slowed by" rule.

HIWPI it just doesn't matter to me.

But RAW I don't agree with you at all. There's no rules definition for Initiative that includes speed. The definition on page 6 is mostly fluff - the rules for it later (in the assault section) outlines the actual rules - and there's no faster/slower involved in those rules, just higher/lower.

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

If that was the case there would be no need to specify that Wrecked vehicles are "Dangerous and Difficult terrain". Look up the wrecked vehicles rules (don't know page number) to see.

While dangerous terrain may be a subset of difficult terrain it does not mean that the difficult terrain rules are conferred to dangerous terrain. Simply the examples in the book make it seem that way, but it is not the case.

Kevin949 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

If that was the case there would be no need to specify that Wrecked vehicles are "Dangerous and Difficult terrain". Look up the wrecked vehicles rules (don't know page number) to see.

While dangerous terrain may be a subset of difficult terrain it does not mean that the difficult terrain rules are conferred to dangerous terrain. Simply the examples in the book make it seem that way, but it is not the case.

Citation needed.

P.13 shows that Dangerous terrain, by default, is difficult terrain.

P.13, Left Column, 8th Graph,2nd sentence. "If the terrain feature includes hazards... then it may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous"

It lists 3 types of terrain.
Clear.
Difficult.
Impassible.

Only one has rules that say "additionally categorised as"

Dangerous terrain is not clear terrain, and it is not impassible terrain, so what are we left with?

Off topic, slightly; the C'tan power Sentient Singularity, creates dangerous terrain that is not difficult terrain, as well. It is the only example that I know of, though.

Edit: Although, it is only dangerous to vehicles, and all difficult is already dangerous to vehicles. But, it isn't difficult to any other unit type...maybe not a great example, but there ya go.

ToBeWilly wrote:Off topic, slightly; the C'tan power Sentient Singularity, creates dangerous terrain that is not difficult terrain, as well. It is the only example that I know of, though.

We used to think that the Spore Cloud did as well, but it was FAQed to not.
(not quoting to dispute, quoting for context)

The night spinner causes units to take dangerous terrain tests when they move, but not difficult terrain tests.
Not all dangerous terrain is also difficult. Mine fields are dangerous and not difficult.
Wraiths do not have anything preventing them from being slowed down by dangerous terrain tests, even if they auto pass them. Get over it, as it doesn't happen that often, and usually just means that their enemies are now striking at the same time as them.

axeman1n wrote:The night spinner causes units to take dangerous terrain tests when they move, but not difficult terrain tests.

They count as being in both difficult and dangerous, not just dangerous.

Quick check through Brb does show that designers definitely didn't assume all dangerous terrain is difficult, even though they did write it so on "guidelines on categorising terrain" (pg 13) as DR said.

Examples:
Pg 36, Assaulting through cover: "...if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test..."
Pg 62, Wrecks: "counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain..."
Page 71, Moving skimmers: "However, if a moving skimmer starts or ends its move In difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Jump infantry, pg 52: "...they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain."
Bikes, pg 53, "treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead."

Basically most rules, main exception being pg 13, have been written to take into account possibility of dangerous terrain not being difficult.

But to bring this back on track:
"Bikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain." Pg 53, brb
"Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain" Pg 44, C:Necrons

If Wraiths are not reduced to I1 by assaulting through dangerous terrain, then same applies to Bikes too.

Does anyone here really, really think that it's RAI or RAW that Bikes are not reduced to I1 while assaulting through cover? Do take the "Assault" paragraph on pg 53 concerning Bikes into account before answering. And if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Well, first thing, not all dangerous terrain is difficult.

Dangerous Terrain is a subset of Difficult Terrain, So Dangerous Terrain is Difficult Terrain by default.

If that was the case there would be no need to specify that Wrecked vehicles are "Dangerous and Difficult terrain". Look up the wrecked vehicles rules (don't know page number) to see.

While dangerous terrain may be a subset of difficult terrain it does not mean that the difficult terrain rules are conferred to dangerous terrain. Simply the examples in the book make it seem that way, but it is not the case.

Citation needed.

P.13 shows that Dangerous terrain, by default, is difficult terrain.

P.13, Left Column, 8th Graph,2nd sentence. "If the terrain feature includes hazards... then it may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous"

It lists 3 types of terrain.
Clear.
Difficult.
Impassible.

Only one has rules that say "additionally categorised as"

Dangerous terrain is not clear terrain, and it is not impassible terrain, so what are we left with?

Pg 62 first paragraph:

"WRECKS
Wrecked vehicles are left on the table and effectively
become a piece of terrain, counting as both difficult
and dangerous terrain, and providing cover. Players
must clearly mark that a vehicle has been wrecked in
any way they consider suitable. For example, they can
turn the vehicle or just its turret upside down (and not
sideways to gain extra cover!), place a marker or cotton
wool on it to represent smoke and flames, and so on."

Also, you're ignoring the entire dangerous terrain entry on page 14, which does NOT mention it as being difficult. The difficult terrain rules simply state that terrain MAY BE classified as BOTH difficult and dangerous. If all dangerous terrain was also difficult there would be no need to make this clarification anywhere and it would all simply state "Dangerous" and not "Difficult and Dangerous". Also, the dangerous terrain rules do not say your movement is slowed either.

Luide wrote:Quick check through Brb does show that designers definitely didn't assume all dangerous terrain is difficult, even though they did write it so on "guidelines on categorising terrain" (pg 13) as DR said.

Examples:
Pg 36, Assaulting through cover: "...if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test..."
Pg 62, Wrecks: "counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain..."
Page 71, Moving skimmers: "However, if a moving skimmer starts or ends its move In difficult or dangerous terrain, it must take a dangerous terrain test."

Jump infantry, pg 52: "...they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain."
Bikes, pg 53, "treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain instead."

Basically most rules, main exception being pg 13, have been written to take into account possibility of dangerous terrain not being difficult.

But to bring this back on track:
"Bikes are not slowed down by difficult terrain." Pg 53, brb
"Canoptek Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain" Pg 44, C:Necrons

If Wraiths are not reduced to I1 by assaulting through dangerous terrain, then same applies to Bikes too.

Does anyone here really, really think that it's RAI or RAW that Bikes are not reduced to I1 while assaulting through cover? Do take the "Assault" paragraph on pg 53 concerning Bikes into account before answering. And if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

retraction....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My answer before is based on the false premiss that dangerous terrain is always difficult terrain. As it appears they can be separate I would break it down like this:

1. Wraiths are not slowed by difficult terrain. a. no movement penalty b. no initiative penalty when assaulting through cover

2. Wraiths automatically pass dangerous terrain tess. a. no movement penalty. b. initiative is reduced to I1 since the wraith can be slowed by dangerous terrain.

Bikes are similar - not slowed by difficult terrain, but when assaulting through cover count as moving through dangerous terrain which they are indeed slowed by, to I1.

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

Kevin949 wrote:Pg 62 first paragraph:

"WRECKS
Wrecked vehicles are left on the table and effectively
become a piece of terrain, counting as both difficult
and dangerous terrain, and providing cover. ...."

Also, you're ignoring the entire dangerous terrain entry on page 14, which does NOT mention it as being difficult. The difficult terrain rules simply state that terrain MAY BE classified as BOTH difficult and dangerous. If all dangerous terrain was also difficult there would be no need to make this clarification anywhere and it would all simply state "Dangerous" and not "Difficult and Dangerous". Also, the dangerous terrain rules do not say your movement is slowed either.

The underlined is not true. They need the distinction for effects like Spore cloud (Spre cloud if you look at the FAQ).

"MAY BE classified as BOTH difficult and dangerous" just means that not all difficult terrain is dangerous. and that citation means nothing. It just shows that wrecks are difficult and dangerous, as opposed to craters which are just difficult. (And effects that emulate terrain like the Spore (Spre) cloud.

Look to P.13 where they define terrain.

Q: How many general classes of terrain are there?
A: 3 (P.13, left column, 2nd Graph, 3rd sentence.)

Q: What are the three general classes of terrain?

A:
#1: Clear. (P.13, left column, 3rd Graph.)
#2: Difficult. (P.13, left column, 4th Graph.)
#3: Impassible. (P.13, left column, 5th Graph.)

Q: Is Dangerous a class of terrain on its own?

A: No

Only one has rules that say "additionally categorised as" and that is difficult terrain. Making dangerous terrain a subset of difficult terrain. Thus all difficult terrain MAY BE "additionally categorised as" dangerous terrain.

Re-read P.14 Right Column 2nd Graph.

"Dangerous terrain As mentioned previously [where? in the difficult terrain rules on P.13] some terrain features will be difficult to move through. ... roll... for every model that has moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move..."

axeman1n wrote:Not all dangerous terrain is also difficult. Mine fields are dangerous and not difficult.

Incorrect. Re-read P.13 and the Difficult terrain section.

It says that "Difficult terrain includes areas of rubble, jungles [Etc.]... If the terrain feature includes hazards, such as booby traps...then it may be additionally categorized as both difficult and dangerous terrain."

Clear terrain has no terrain features. Difficult terrain has terrain features and "If the terrain feature includes hazards...then it may be additionally categorized as both difficult and dangerous terrain."

Mine fields are difficult terrain by default (Though people may house rule otherwise).

You're still typing a ton of words and none of them make any mention of page 14 where dangerous terrain is it's own thing and not paired with difficult terrain. You're taking 'examples' as hard and fast facts, which is not the case here. There are plenty of examples other than the spore cloud where terrain is simply "dangerous" and not also difficult and quite a few them have been mentioned already so I won't go over them again.

Minefields still specify both difficult and dangerous terrain in their rules (at least on the apoc asset cards anyway).

Anyway, you're not seeing the forest for the trees, just because difficult can sometimes be dangerous does not mean in any sense, no matter how you spin it, that all dangerous is also difficult. IF that was the case, the entries for dangerous terrain would not be as prolific as they are and it would probably be something along the lines of "Difficult (Dangerous)" with a one line entry in the difficult rule stating that if it is dangerous you must pass a dangerous terrain test on top of the difficult terrain check. Then it would specify what a dangerous terrain test is and that would be that, but it's not.

Kevin949 wrote:There are plenty of examples other than the spore cloud where terrain is simply "dangerous" and not also difficult

Those things are not terrain, they are all special rules of models and do not actually create terrain. Just like the spore Cloud.

Q: How many general classes of terrain are there?
A: 3 (P.13, left column, 2nd Graph, 3rd sentence.)

Q: What are the three general classes of terrain?

A:
#1: Clear. (P.13, left column, 3rd Graph.)
#2: Difficult. (P.13, left column, 4th Graph.)
#3: Impassible. (P.13, left column, 5th Graph.)

Q: Is Dangerous a class of terrain on its own?

A: No

Dangerous terrain is not a class of terrain on its own. It is a subcategory of difficult terrain. All dangerous terrain is difficult, but not all difficult terrain is dangerous.

Notice how clear terrain and impassible terrain (The two other types of terrain) do not include "may be additionally categorised as both difficult and dangerous" so since it does not say that they can be dangerous, they can not due to the permissive rule set.

Without being able to refute this point, your argument falls apart.

Kevin949 wrote:There are plenty of examples other than the spore cloud where terrain is simply "dangerous" and not also difficult and quite a few them have been mentioned already so I won't go over them again.

You should mention them, because All I have found were spore cloud, that does not create an area of dangerous terrain.

And the necron C'Tan singularity thing, which both difficult and dangerous were mentioned for that rule.

DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

I agree.
But some Necron players seem to disagree, and I just wanted to point out that their fluff "justification" applies equally to bikes.
And I haven't heard anyone trying to argue that bikes don't get reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

im not going to argue the whole dangerous terrain thing, since i really cant say for sure....


but just pointing out.... dont most wraith players take whip coils? - those reduce targets to init 1 anyway, so wouldnt it just be both sides striking at the same time?

the other thing... if your wraiths can ignore cover and terrain, why not just move around the dangerous part, and then charge?

also, - if your target is inside dangerous arent they taking dangerous terrain tests as well just for being inside it?

DarthSpader wrote:also, - if your target is inside dangerous arent they taking dangerous terrain tests as well just for being inside it?

Only if they move.

If they stay stationary then no test.

*Redacted*

Kevin949 wrote:Since wraiths are jump infantry if you move 12" into difficult terrain (say, ruins) then you have to take a dangerous test, which they auto pass, but they still had to test so they'd strike at I1, which is kind of a big deal here.

You don't strike at I1 for your movement during the movement phase.
You strike at I1 for your movement during the Assault phase.
JI move as Infantry for assault moves.
There has to be real dangerous terrain for Wraiths to be penalized.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Since wraiths are jump infantry if you move 12" into difficult terrain (say, ruins) then you have to take a dangerous test, which they auto pass, but they still had to test so they'd strike at I1, which is kind of a big deal here.

You don't strike at I1 for your movement during the movement phase.
You strike at I1 for your movement during the Assault phase.
JI move as Infantry for assault moves.
There has to be real dangerous terrain for Wraiths to be penalized.

Ah yes, derp derp.

Luide wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

I agree.
But some Necron players seem to disagree, and I just wanted to point out that their fluff "justification" applies equally to bikes.
And I haven't heard anyone trying to argue that bikes don't get reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

No. The "fluff justification" does not also apply to bikes, because bikes must take a dangerous terrain test. Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

Nate668 wrote:

Luide wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

I agree.
But some Necron players seem to disagree, and I just wanted to point out that their fluff "justification" applies equally to bikes.
And I haven't heard anyone trying to argue that bikes don't get reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

No. The "fluff justification" does not also apply to bikes, because bikes must take a dangerous terrain test. Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

Nowhere in the wraithflight rules does it say that at all.

Nate668 wrote:No. The "fluff justification" does not also apply to bikes, because bikes must take a dangerous terrain test. Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

Sweet, we get to make up rules now?

I vote termis go back to 2nd edition saves 3+ on two dice.

Nate668 wrote:Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

False. They automatically pass dangerous terrain tests, but that means they must take the test - which means they drop init.

To take a test a die must be rolled for each model entering Dangerous terrain at what point is this done by the player with the wraiths?

A football match where one team fails to turn up in time with no notice is automatically won by the team that did turn up even no game was played ,but by your interpretation that team must play for 90 mins with no opposition .

because you will automatically pass a test you have no need to take a test simple logic

rules are guide lines as stated in the BRB try to remember that instead of getting so worked up

snakel wrote:because you will automatically pass a test you have no need to take a test simple logic

That's false. The statement that you automatically pass means that you do take the test - there's just no need to roll the die.
Your comparison isn't valid. The game still happened, the second team just forfeited.
You're trying to say the test wasn't taken, or that the game wasn't played. That's not true.

rules are guide lines as stated in the BRB try to remember that instead of getting so worked up

I'm not worked up. Please don't assume that I am. I'm just blunt.

snakel wrote:To take a test a die must be rolled for each model entering Dangerous terrain at what point is this done by the player with the wraiths?

A football match where one team fails to turn up in time with no notice is automatically won by the team that did turn up even no game was played ,but by your interpretation that team must play for 90 mins with no opposition .

because you will automatically pass a test you have no need to take a test simple logic

rules are guide lines as stated in the BRB try to remember that instead of getting so worked up

How can you automatically pass something if you never did the thing you were to pass? That is a cart before the horse situation right there.

snakel wrote:because you will automatically pass a test you have no need to take a test simple logic

Erm, no, the fact that you have passed a test (doing so automatically or not is of no consequence) states that a test for it has been made. if I automatically pass my driving test without taking my driving test, have I automatically passed it? No, because there was no test there to automatically pass.

If there is no test, then you have not automatically passed it; having passed a test requires there to have been one, therefore your 'simple logic' is simply flawed.

LOL to automatically pass something does not always mean you took a test

So by your logic i must roll the die and ignore the result because if i don't roll the die i took no test and if you say no, because you automatically pass there is no need to roll then you are saying i don't actually need to take the test the result is irrelevant either i take the test or i don't

If you took a driving test and the examiner told you, you had passed before you got in the car and gave you the paper work, to say you had passed, you would have automatically passed with no test taken but if you got in the car and he said i am going to pass you at the end of this test, no matter what you do, you would have actually taken the test

Yes the other team forfeits the game but no game takes place and the other team are accredited with the win automatically , again by your logic a game must have taken place for them to win it, but no game has, so for them to win automatically they must play that game with no opposition

In some instances in life and in games automatically passing means just that IE you pass no need to take a test

and as for the worked up comment it was meant in general not to any specific person

snakel wrote:LOL to automatically pass something does not always mean you took a test

If you took a driving test and the examiner told you, you had passed before you got in the car and gave you the paper work, to say you had passed, you would have automatically passed with no test taken

Yes the other team forfeits the game but no game takes place and the other team are accredited with the win automatically

In some instances in life and in games automatically passing means just that IE you pass no need to take a test

and as for the worked up comment it was meant in general not to any specific person

But a test did take place, otherwise there would be nothing to pass or fail on. Just because the middle part did not happen as normally planned does not mean the beginning and the end also did not happen. In this case, wraiths enter terrain -> dangerous test is taken -> auto pass so no roll required -> ensuing assault with all penalties.

In your example, test is prepared -> people show up -> you auto pass and don't need to answer questions -> you get to go to college like a cool guy.

snakel wrote:LOL to automatically pass something does not always mean you took a test

LOL yes it does.

So by your logic i must roll the die and ignore the result because if i don't roll the die i took no test and if you say no, because you automatically pass there is no need to roll then you are saying i don't actually need to take the test the result is irrelevant either i take the test or i don't

No, you're twisting the meaning. Nowhere does it say that you have to physical take the test yourself. The fact that it was passed assumes that a test was taken without forcing you to make one - although feel free, since the result doesn't matter.

If you took a driving test and the examiner told you, you had passed before you got in the car and gave you the paper work, to say you had passed, you would have automatically passed with no test taken but if you got in the car and he said i am going to pass you at the end of this test, no matter what you do, you would have actually taken the test

Exactly. After driving, the test was assumed to have been taken.

Yes the other team forfeits the game but no game takes place and the other team are accredited with the win automatically , again by your logic a game must have taken place for them to win it, but no game has, so for them to win automatically they must play that game with no opposition

A game was assumed to have taken place and the team accredited with winning it. What is your point?

In some instances in life and in games automatically passing means just that IE you pass no need to take a test

There is no need for you to take it because the act of automatically passing already assumes that it was taken and passed. There's also the fact that life and other games =/= W40k; since when was it logical to apply real life to a game involving space elves, warhungry fungus, and souless machines powered by green?

snakel wrote:LOL to automatically pass something does not always mean you took a test

So by your logic i must roll the die and ignore the result because if i don't roll the die i took no test and if you say no, because you automatically pass there is no need to roll then you are saying i don't actually need to take the test the result is irrelevant either i take the test or i don't

If you took a driving test and the examiner told you, you had passed before you got in the car and gave you the paper work, to say you had passed, you would have automatically passed with no test taken but if you got in the car and he said i am going to pass you at the end of this test, no matter what you do, you would have actually taken the test

Yes the other team forfeits the game but no game takes place and the other team are accredited with the win automatically , again by your logic a game must have taken place for them to win it, but no game has, so for them to win automatically they must play that game with no opposition

In some instances in life and in games automatically passing means just that IE you pass no need to take a test

and as for the worked up comment it was meant in general not to any specific person

A test is made up of several parts, the actual action portion being only one of them. The participants, the location, the premise, the questions, the answers, and the results are all part of a test.

Just because you may not need to literally 'take' the substantive portion of a test, does not mean that a test was not administered, there weren't participants, and a result was not produced.

What people here are trying to say is that, by definition, if you automatically pass a test, then there must have been a test to take in the first place. Whether you needed to perform an action in order to pass that test is completely irrelevant. You still gain the benefits of whatever passing entails and, if there are additional qualifiers related to taking the test, you must abide by them as well.

For example: Assume I am only allowed to take the Law School Aptitude Test (LSAT) twice in my life. If, somehow, I managed to strike a deal where I could automatically receive a 100% on the test (regardless of what I answered, or even if I showed up to the testing facility) it would still, by definition, count towards the total number of LSATs I have taken and I would only be allowed to take it 1 more time in my lifetime.

The situation with Wraiths taking a Dangerous Terrain test is exactly the same. You must abide by the additional restrictions of taking the test even if you automatically pass the quantitative portion (not having to roll for Dangerous Terrain wounds).

DoW

football is 60 minutes - 4 quarters of 15 minutes each. yeesh

DarthSpader wrote:football is 60 minutes - 4 quarters of 15 minutes each. yeesh

Oh you...

DoW

Nate668 wrote:

Luide wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:if Bikes are reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain, then Wraiths are too.

Why wouldn't they be, they took a dangerous terrain test, so they get reduced. to I1

I agree.
But some Necron players seem to disagree, and I just wanted to point out that their fluff "justification" applies equally to bikes.
And I haven't heard anyone trying to argue that bikes don't get reduced to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

No. The "fluff justification" does not also apply to bikes, because bikes must take a dangerous terrain test. Wraiths are immune to both difficult and dangerous terrain effects.

I'd advise you to read your codex again. Nowhere in Wraithflight does it say that. What it does say, is "automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests" (C:Necrons, pg 44) which is completely different from being immune to dangerous terrain effects.
Now, C'Tan shards on other hand do "Ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain while moving" (C:Necrons, pg 40).

Judging from these rules, it looks like Matt Ward deliberately wrote Wraiths so that they are slowed to I1 when assaulting through dangerous terrain.

Wraiths ignore fifficult and dangerous. Ill look it up on my work break to double check. I think they can also go in night scythes. Read wraith flight.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Wraiths ignore fifficult and dangerous.

You are not the first one to make that claim.....and you are, like the others, wrong.
I suggest looking up the rule before posting.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Defeatmyarmy wrote:Wraiths ignore fifficult and dangerous.

You are not the first one to make that claim.....and you are, like the others, wrong.
I suggest looking up the rule before posting.

I'm staring directly at the necron codex page 44.

"canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.".

In order to move or assault from dangerous terrain you must take a difficult terrain test must in addition to to dangerous terrain saves. Wraiths ignore dangerous terrain saves and difficult terrain distance. Explain where I'm wrong.

You are adding the word 'ignore' yourself. It's not in the rule you yourself quoted.

UltraPrime wrote:You are adding the word 'ignore' yourself. It's not in the rule you yourself quoted.

You're right I was going from memory but got the page right. So it's actually "canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.". Working overnight messes with my memory.

So if they are never slowed by terrain and pass all dangerous terrain tests, isn't never being slowed the same as Ignoring terrain? Since no difficult terrain slows them and they automatically pass dangerous saves?

Defeatmyarmy wrote:So if they are never slowed by terrain and pass all dangerous terrain tests, isn't never being slowed the same as Ignoring terrain? Since no difficult terrain slows them and they automatically pass dangerous saves?

Already covered previously in the thread.

But Kind of.

Never being slowed is kind of the same as Ignoring terrain for the purposes of movement, so they will still move and assault their full distance if they go through difficult terrain.

However, if they assault through dangerous terrain (which is always difficult terrain as well), even though they do not roll for a difficult terrain test, they are forced to take a dangerous terrain test (Which they automatically pass) so they are Initiative 1 when combat starts.

With the current wording wraiths are immune to difficult terrain. They are always I2 no matter what the conditions.

Dangerous terrain is another matter. When a terrain is elligible for dangerous terrain tests, then the unit charging in is I1. Automatic success doesn't change the fact that the terrain is eligible for DT test. If the wording was wraiths are never slowed by difficult or dangerous terrain, then you would be right.

To be honest my personal opinion is that RAI the wraiths shouldn't drop to I1, but RAW they do. And since I can't claim to be 100% sure what RAI is in this case, I stay with RAW. Only a faq can change this.

Unfortunately gw already did the necron FAQ before this issue came up. I'll look into the rule book when I get home, but doubt it will clear this up.

The only thing I'm finding about Wraiths in the FAQ is in regards to their Init reducing whips. Nothing about difficult/dangerous terrain.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:

UltraPrime wrote:You are adding the word 'ignore' yourself. It's not in the rule you yourself quoted.

You're right I was going from memory but got the page right. So it's actually "canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.". Working overnight messes with my memory.

So if they are never slowed by terrain and pass all dangerous terrain tests, isn't never being slowed the same as Ignoring terrain? Since no difficult terrain slows them and they automatically pass dangerous saves?

Well, if the wraiths ignored the terrain then they would have wording identical to the c'tan "Immune to Natural Law" ability. Honestly, with the way the two rules are written I'm actually starting to think that wraiths still strike at I1 through dangerous AND difficult terrain assaults. I know there is a HUUUUUUGE argument going on between the two camps of "Slow is fluff" and "Slow is not just fluff", so I'm not taking sides on that debate. But no, never being slowed by terrain isn't really ignoring terrain. And if it was, then they would have just written it the same or similar to the c'tan.

@Kevin949 Bottom line is:

The rule for striking at Initiative 1 is what is important in this situation.

If you are forced to make a difficult or dangerous terrain test, then you strike at Initiative 1.

Wraiths do not take difficult terrain tests, so they strike at normal Initiative when assaulting through difficult terrain. But they are forced to take dangerous terrain tests, which they automatically pass, do they strike at Initiative 1 if they went through dangerous terrain.

DeathReaper wrote:@Kevin949 Bottom line is:

The rule for striking at Initiative 1 is what is important in this situation.

If you are forced to make a difficult or dangerous terrain test, then you strike at Initiative 1.

Wraiths do not take difficult terrain tests, so they strike at normal Initiative when assaulting through difficult terrain. But they are forced to take dangerous terrain tests, which they automatically pass, do they strike at Initiative 1 if they went through dangerous terrain.

Yes I know all this, but consequently nothing says they don't take difficult terrain tests it just states they aren't slowed. For all we know that is to mean they auto rolled double 6's. If they were to not actually take the test then they would just have said "ignore the effects of difficult terrain". But they didn't, nor did they say "still counts as assaulting through cover" or something similar. So it's really an even split on deciding what it means. On the one hand you have a clear cut case of "ignores effects of terrain" on the c'tan, so if the wraiths were to ignore EITHER terrain effects, why wouldn't it just say so? It doesn't, it just basically you don't have to roll but it doesn't say you don't suffer the penalties.

I'm honestly starting to think that this is the balancing factor of wraiths being "too good", perhaps they truly aren't the in-cover assaulters they used to be.

They do not automatically roll double 6's. The rules do not say that so that is not true.

necron codex page 44.

"canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests."

So they are "never slowed by difficult terrain" which means they do not test.

Had it said something about automatically rolling 6's then they would strike at I1, but it does not say that.

If there is no difficult terrain test taken they strike at normal initiative.

DeathReaper wrote:They do not automatically roll double 6's. The rules do not say that so that is not true.

necron codex page 44.

"canoptek wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain, and automatically pass dangerous terrain tests."

So they are "never slowed by difficult terrain" which means they do not test.

Had it said something about automatically rolling 6's then they would strike at I1, but it does not say that.

If there is no difficult terrain test taken they strike at normal initiative.

Oh I know what the rule does and doesn't say, but never being slowed doesn't mean there is no test nor does it mean they ignore the penalties of assaulting through terrain. I'm just starting to believe that people are still hung up on how they used to work. That and bad writing doesn't help. But having one clearly defined rule where the effects are completely ignored and then having one somewhat ambiguous rule that *might* mean the same thing just doesn't seem right to me. I'm inclined to conclude they still suffer the penalties they just never have you physically roll dice. Until an FAQ comes out, I'll continue to play it as they strike at I2 when assaulting through difficult and I1 when assaulting through dangerous, I'm just leaning towards them not working that way through difficult. Of course, this all could be ambiguous writing for 5th but clearly defined in 6th. Don't know.

Never slowed

and

automatically pass

are two different things.

If they do not need to test, they are not slowed, it is that simple.

LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

here is simple fact ,a unit in an army has a good rule and people don't like it so the read the rules over and over taking every word as gospel and making something that does not exist.

wraiths by definition of their rule ignore Difficult terrain the dangerous part is in their rule, to stop people saying you need to test to see if you die .

automatically pass is the same as ignoring ,the only way the I1 camp can win this argument is to make you take the test then ignore the result because if you do not actually take the test it never took place .

the act of rolling the die is to take a chance of the result being bad for you ,if a unit had a rule that they automatically hit IE hitting an immobilized vehicle it means they hit it no need to roll the dice and guess what ? that means they don't roll the dice but they still hit .

The dice in this game are there to represent chance nothing else there are rules and times where rolling the dice or taking a test are not needed so they never happen ,if you look at it this way every dice roll is a test to see if something happens not rolling the dice means you didn't test !!!!

snakel wrote:LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

No, but test that are automatically passed are indeed taken.

snakel; repeating the same garbage over and over does not make you right.

snakel wrote:here is simple fact ,a unit in an army has a good rule and people don't like it so the read the rules over and over taking every word as gospel and making something that does not exist.

That is not a fact. You have nothing to support that, and the statement is insulting.

wraiths by definition of their rule ignore Difficult terrain the dangerous part is in their rule, to stop people saying you need to test to see if you die .

Please show me the word ignore. And no one is saying that you need to test to see if they die - they don't risk dying as they automatically pass the test.

automatically pass is the same as ignoring

Rules citation needed.

,the only way the I1 camp can win this argument is to make you take the test then ignore the result because if you do not actually take the test it never took place .

If you're Fearless you automatically pass all Pinning tests.
I force a Pinning test on your Purifiers.
Your interpretation: I auto-pass, so I never took the test. But I'm forced to take the test, so I take the test, but I auto-pass, so I didn't take the test, so.... (infinite loop of breakage)
The right interpretation: I auto-pass so don't need to roll, but the requirement to take the test has been satisfied.

that means they don't roll the dice but they still hit .

Correct - because if you rolled the dice they wouldn't matter.
But if you assume a to-hit was never rolled, then there's all kinds of rules that stop working - like rolling to wound, rolling for pen...

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:here is simple fact ,a unit in an army has a good rule and people don't like it so the read the rules over and over taking every word as gospel and making something that does not exist.

That is not a fact. You have nothing to support that, and the statement is insulting.

YMTC this very forum is support for that statement, and if you take insult from a persons statements on a forum, you really need to learn to walk away ,this is in no way a serious matter to get upset over .

I personally read, laugh and move on but that's just me

rigeld2 wrote:[

automatically pass is the same as ignoring

Rules citation needed.

.

Point in fact

The rules are a guideline not gospel stop asking for something all the time play the game use you own mind and stop reading the rulebook like a bible

Too many people take this game way to seriously


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:snakel; repeating the same garbage over and over does not make you right.

In your mind its garbage not in everyone's, i could just as easily state the same of your statements, but that's the beauty of this game rules are guidelines not fact ,stop trying to get rules for every situation to be black and white they are not and never will be

snakel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

automatically pass is the same as ignoring

Rules citation needed..

Point in fact

The rules are a guideline not gospel stop asking for something all the time play the game use you own mind and stop reading the rulebook like a bible

Too many people take this game way to seriously

Let me get this straight...

You know what the YMDC forum is for - explaining the Rules as Written.
You come into a thread, insult people who actually do help to explain the rules, and then handwave the rules away because they're just "guidelines"?

Sir, if you're trolling us - well done. I'm done with this.

If you feel insulted then that's your call i have not nor will i insult you but you(insulting to me would be a personal attack i just don't agree with you if that's insulting i give up ) seem to have taken offense to my statements so for that i apologize but trolling is not my aim and stating my take on the rules is allowed

snakel wrote:If you feel insulted then that's your call i have not nor will i insult you but you(insulting to me would be a personal attack i just don't agree with you if that's insulting i give up ) seem to have taken offense to my statements so for that i apologize but trolling is not my aim and stating my take on the rules is allowed

If I said, "You're dumb." that's an insult. It's a minor one that 99% of the world would shrug off, but it's an insult.
Saying that the people in YMDC are simply hunting for ways to tear down a good unit is insulting - it's insinuating a bias that many of us try very hard to keep out of our interpretations.

I don't care if you disagree with me. YMDC requires rules support in disagreements - it's in the tenets. Treating the rules as guidelines and making up whatever you want doesn't work here.
The rules 100% disagree with your take on them. You have no rules support for your arguments.

Stating how you would play it is fine. Saying how you think the rules are intended to work is fine.
First, you're supposed to clarify that's what you're talking about.
Second, you can't use that in an argument against RAW.

Also, please watch your grammar/spelling and how you type. The post I quoted has a single capital letter (and lots of places there should be one) and next to no punctuation.

I would love to argue with you some more and unintentionally insult you unlike your intend insult but, RAW is what it is and i read that automatically passing a test means you do not need to take that test ,which means the test didn't take place

Therefore wraiths always strike at i2 as i read it

Feel free to carry on thanks for everything

"You're taking the rules too seriously" is not a legitimate argument in this sub-forum which is devoted to discussion of the rules. If you don't want to talk about the rules as a serious subject of discussion, please avail yourself of the rest of the site.

Thanks.

snakel wrote:I would love to argue with you some more and unintentionally insult you unlike your intend insult but

I didn't insult you. I was comparing what you said to an obvious insult.

, RAW is what it is

Yes.

and i read that automatically passing a test means you do not need to take that test ,which means the test didn't take place

Where did you read that? What rules support do you have? You have yet to show any.

RAW is as it says, so how you read a rule is the key issue here .

What part or page of the BRB states automatically passed test are still classed as being taken ?none

What part or page states automatically passed tests are not taken ? none

So we fall back on how we read a rule to make our judgement ,now for me for a test to have taken place you must actually physically take that test, since Wraiths don't actually roll a die at anytime they have not taken a test (my reading of the rule and English)

I have therefore read the rules as written ,taken that information and ,come to my conclusion .

Unlike most other languages, English can be very complex making one persons reading and understanding of a rule or statement completely different .

If anything in this last post has broken the rules of this forum them i will happily leave it

snakel wrote:,now for me for a test to have taken place you must actually physically take that test, since Wraiths don't actually roll a die at anytime they have not taken a test (my reading of the rule and English)

That does not mean they didn't need to take the test.

They need to take the test.

They take the test by auto passing, so they do not have to roll for the test.

Then the rules for assaulting through Difficult terrain kick in.

snakel wrote:LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

Read the rule again. Does it read "Don't need to take dangerous terrain tests?" No it doesn't. It reads they automatically pass those tests. Completely different thing,
It means if at some point they'd have to do a DT test, they pass automatically. They still have obviously taken it. No need to roll any dice though.

So by RAW, you're simply, obviously wrong.
And when one considers that in same Codex there is also C'Tan, which have been explicitly written to actually ignore difficult and dangerous terrain, it becomes obvious that the word choice of Wraithflight is deliberate. And yes, it does cause Wraiths to hit at I1 when they assualt through dangerous terrain (note dangerous, not difficult).

Also, consider this is exactly same as if one uses Brotherhood Banner to automatically activate GK NFW's. In your opinion, can that use of Psychic power be hooded?

Relevant rules quote from Hood: "Declare that you will use the psychic hood after an enemy model within 24' of the Librarian passes a Psychic test."

snakel wrote:RAW is as it says, so how you read a rule is the key issue here .

No - now you're starting to interpret. RAI arguments are different from RAW arguments. You're free to argue RAI but you really should say so.

What part or page of the BRB states automatically passed test are still classed as being taken ?none

Moving through dangerous terrain you're forced to take a test.
Find the permission to not take the test.

Yes - you've automatically passed the test. Good for you.
But you have taken the test.

Or do Fearless units that are forced to take a Pinning test break the game? I brought it up earlier but you seemed to ignore it.

DeathReaper wrote:

snakel wrote:,now for me for a test to have taken place you must actually physically take that test, since Wraiths don't actually roll a die at anytime they have not taken a test (my reading of the rule and English)

That does not mean they didn't need to take the test.

They need to take the test.

They take the test by auto passing, so they do not have to roll for the test.

Then the rules for assaulting through Difficult terrain kink in.

When did i take the test ?
When did i roll the die ?

Until both of those are done I.E the time and the actual rolling to represent the test i have not taken a test .

You read that automatically passing a test means you took the test without actual taking the test ,i read that to take a test you must actual roll the dice otherwise no test was taken ,

RAW read differently

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

As someone who just learned how awesome wraiths are, i agree with the majority(?) here.

Wraith, passing through difficult on his merry way to assault, is free to do at init2.
Wraith, humdinging his way to assault through dangerous, attacks at init 1.

Dangerous is rare Like incredibad rare for the games ive played. Now, i have another question to ask...

Impassable terrain. Lets call it a flat topped building thats impassable, or even a rock that you could set a wraith or two on top of.
It is categorized as blos and impassable, but NOT as dangerous.
As jump infantry landing on top you are forced to take a Dangerous test. As a wraith you auto pass.

Now, what if you were to run? You run like infantry right? Do you take a dangerous test? Or are you free to run across and down the Impass terrain?
Same question for assaulting. If you are in range, and assuming not all of the wraiths are on the impass, does it count as dangerous, even though you assault like infantry?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

Rigeld2, I fail to see under the wraiths section something similar to this: Wraithflight: See Immune to natural law on page (so and so).

Dont you?

snakel wrote:RAW is as it says, so how you read a rule is the key issue here .
What part or page of the BRB states automatically passed test are still classed as being taken ?none

Normal reading comprehension is enough. Common sense assumption is when one is forced to take a test, one has to either 1) Pass it or 2) Fail it. Either way, you've made the test. Whether you automatically succeed, automatically fail or roll dice to see the result doesn't matter. You've taken the test either way.

snakel wrote:
What part or page states automatically passed tests are not taken ? none
So we fall back on how we read a rule to make our judgement ,now for me for a test to have taken place you must actually physically take that test, since Wraiths don't actually roll a die at anytime they have not taken a test (my reading of the rule and English)

Here you go wrong. Rolling dice is not required for having made a test. Think about it for a second. It would also mean that if test is automatically failed, it hasn't been taken either.

Your interpretation also means that you haven't made any CC attacks against Immobilized Vehicles in CC (those attacks auto-hit, and if you don't roll dice, they haven't made an attack).
Your position is not internally consistent.

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

Then every person that has ever played this game and not rolled the die even though they automatically pass a test has broken the rules

Assumption not fact

Your assuming the test was taken because you believe for a test to automatically be passed a test must have taken place but its clear unless i roll the die i did not take the test

Circles and round come to mind so i will leave now thanks

Basimpo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

Rigeld2, I fail to see under the wraiths section something similar to this: Wraithflight: See Immune to natural law on page (so and so).

Dont you?

Right. You're forced to take the test. You just pass automatically.

That's my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

snakel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

snakel wrote:When did i take the test ?

You must have or you're breaking the rules. You're forced to take the test for moving into dangerous terrain.
Where is the permission - in the rules - to not take the test?

Then every person that has ever played this game and not rolled the die even though they automatically pass a test has broken the rules

Why are you equating rolling a die to taking the test?

Your assuming the test was taken because you believe for a test to automatically be passed a test must have taken place but its clear unless i roll the die i did not take the test

Where is it clear? For you to say that you obviously have rules support. Which I've asked for. Twice - three times now.
Please provide it.

Or to try again - how can you pass a test that never took place?

Rigeld2 wrote:Why are you equating rolling a die to taking the test?

This is the main issue at hand.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Snakel is saying that unless you roll the dice, you have not taken the Dangerous Terrain test.

Therefore for Snakel: Rolling the dice is necessary, and sufficient to taking the Dangerous Terrain test.

By that logic, it would also be true that
Rolling the dice is necessary and sufficient for hitting a target with a ranged weapon.
and
Rolling the dice is necessary, and sufficient, for hitting a target in melee combat.

Which would then mean that a DoG attack against a vehicle (since you "automatically hit" and no dice are ever rolled) would never result in the vehicle being struck by either a ranged or melee attack.

Rolling the dice is one way to take a Dangerous Terrain test. Auto-passing is the other way. Both result in taking the test and both have to abide by the associated rules (ie an initiative hit) unless specified otherwise.

DoW

If the unit took no test, then what did you auto- pass?

The fact that you auto-pass is proof that a test was taken...

The difference in wording between the C'Tan's rule and the Wraiths' rule is pretty telling.

For almost everyone.

Steelmage99 wrote:

snakel wrote:LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

No, but test that are automatically passed are indeed taken.

Ok I looked into the BRB in addition to the Necron codex. Wraiths ignore difficult terrain and strike at initiative if assaulting through difficult terrain as wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain. Dangerous terrain is a subset of difficult, HOWEVER, as stated on page 36 of the BRB paragraph 2 on ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER "To represent this, if an assualting unit had to take a difficult OR DANGEROUS terrain test during their assault move, all of its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, REGARDLESS of other initiative modifiers.

So in answer to the debate:

1. Wraiths assaulting through difficult terrain are not slowed by it, therefore strike regularly.

2. Wraiths assaulting into dangerous automatically pass dangerous saves, but it is still considered a test. So yes, they are initiative 1 through dangerous. Wraiths are invulnerable, not invincible. They are immune to dangerous checks, however a check that is automatically passed is still a check.

3. Im done arguing, as I spent the past 20 minutes comparing the codex and BRB so Im done with this headache.

Defeatmyarmy wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

snakel wrote:LOL this gets better and better

Tests that are not taken are taken ????

No, but test that are automatically passed are indeed taken.

1. Wraiths assaulting through difficult terrain are not slowed by it, therefore strike regularly.

2. Wraiths assaulting into dangerous automatically pass dangerous saves, but it is still considered a test. So yes, they are initiative 1 through dangerous. Wraiths are invulnerable, not invincible. They are immune to dangerous checks, however a check that is automatically passed is still a check.

3. Im done arguing, as I spent the past 20 minutes comparing the codex and BRB so Im done with this headache.

And we are in total agreement.

Kevin949 wrote:Of course, this all could be ambiguous writing for 5th but clearly defined in 6th. Don't know.

This is just another example of what they really need to improve in their subsequent rule editions, ie, ambiguous wording. There's a thread in the "general" forum about what changes 6th ed. needs to make, but they mostly treat individual balance or specific rule abuse issues. The blanket issue of overall clarity and disambiguation is imo much more important.

Kinda late to the party, but I'd like to chime in on the auto pass test part of this discussion.

Automatically passing, let's use an earlier example, a driving test, DOES mean you didn't have to actually take the test. However, when you use that driver's license that the state gives you assures whoever sees that license that you were qualified to pass the test and you will be treated JUST like you took the test. Just because you didn't take the test does not mean the test criteria were completely disregarded. It means you are a special snowflake and had to qualify on the same scale everyone else was graded on without the hassle of possibly failing. Automatically passing a dangerous terrain test would be the same thing as rolling for dangerous terrain with the exception that you only get the dangerous terrain check on the model if you roll a 7 or a 0 on a d6. It is an automatic pass, albeit a very unorthodox and not in the rules, but still.

A more in game example is an IG player with two astropaths (Take 2 Company Command Squads with an astropath) that state that you add 1 to any of your reserve rolls (pg. 31 IG codex). If it is turn 3 of the game and I am rolling for my reserves with which I will add 2 to the number rolled, I will automatically pass the test. While I understand that this isn't the same since the unit in question automatically passes by default, and mine is a combination of base rules and a special unit ability, I think they both lead to the same scenario. In both scenarios, neither of the rolls are "technically" required and thus both will automatically pass their tests, but both of the tests have occurred. If the test were to not have taken place, I believe it would have said ignore rather than automatically pass.

Norserune wrote: A more in game example is an IG player with two astropaths (Take 2 Company Command Squads with an astropath) that state that you add 1 to any of your reserve rolls (pg. 31 IG codex). If it is turn 3 of the game and I am rolling for my reserves with which I will add 2 to the number rolled, I will automatically pass the test.

Except this isn't true. IIRC the IG FAQ states that you specifically don't gain an additional benefit for having 2 Astropaths/MoTF. The result is only ever a +1/-1.

DoW

DoW, you are correct.

Better example would have been 2 Autarchs, since theirs do stack.

Well, the post still stands. My point is still in there just use the Autarch example or dual casting Psychic Communion for Grey Knights. (Thanks for that info on the dual-Astropath I actually wasn't aware of that )

snakel wrote:
You read that automatically passing a test means you took the test without actual taking the test ,i read that to take a test you must actual roll the dice otherwise no test was taken ,

When you start making statements that sound like a philosophical conundrum, it weakens your argument. I shouldn't have to visualize one hand clapping.

No, wraiths assaulting through difficult terrain are not slowed to I1.
Yes, wraiths assaulting through dangerous terrain are slowed to I1.
Because lowering initiative can be equated to "slowing" the model.

IMHO I think its an oversight that dangerous terrain 'slows' the model to I1, but the rule only mentions 'not slowing' for 'difficult terrain' and not for 'dangerous terrain'. However in RAW, there is no argument for not lowering the Initiative of a wraith assaulting through dangerous terrain.

It never says they are not slowed by dangerous terrain. It just says they auto pass dangerous terrain tests.

Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain. Now, moving through difficult terrain requires a difficult terrain test, but thanks to wraiths they are not slowed by this terrain test.

The terrain still calls for a difficult terrain test and Wraiths per RAW are NOT immune to the terrain (as c'tan are) so why is no difficult terrain test taken?

If the difficult terrain test is taken, but results in no reduction of movement, would they not still strike at init 1?

Most agree that the dangerous terrain test is not ignored, what rule makes the difficult terrain test ignored?

It's mostly due to the drop in Initiative being equated to attacking slower in close combat. Paraphrased from the BRB: Initiative is how fast a model reacts. Of course that can be argued to be merely fluff, in which case Wraiths would suffer the Init drop for assaulting through difficult terrain (even if they do always move 6").

Happyjew, thats how I read it as well... after all, the initiative being reduced is due to the ambushing defending forces in the fluff, so if arguing 'never slowed by terrain' in a fluff argument, I would say that they can be 'slowed' by things that are not terrain, aka ambushing models.

Anyhow, I discounted the fluff for 'slowing' for the obvious reason that fluff counters fluff. RAW seems to me that difficult terrain tests are not ignored, precisely because the rule does not say "Difficult terrain tests are ignored" it instead says "never slowed by difficult terrain." I just dont know why everyone keeps saying that Wraiths in diff terrain = init 2 but init 1 in dangerous.

Because the wording of the two parts of the rule are significantly different. Compare and contrast to how the C'Tan's rule is phrased.

Trying to wonder how you justify slowing a model that automatically passes this test because it is, by the description of the unit, incorporeal and out-of-phase with the reality the terrain is found in.

I think those arguing for the initiative-lowering effect are missing the spirit of the rule, the model and the game.

Psienesis, if the spirit of the rule is in question, consider that init1 is representing being ambushed by someone hiding behind a tree that the wraith cant see.

Psienesis wrote:I think those arguing for the initiative-lowering effect are missing the spirit of the rule, the model and the game.

I think you're missing the difference between RAW, RAI, and HIWPI.

Psienesis wrote:Trying to wonder how you justify slowing a model that automatically passes this test because it is, by the description of the unit, incorporeal and out-of-phase with the reality the terrain is found in.

I think those arguing for the initiative-lowering effect are missing the spirit of the rule, the model and the game.

Also, the argument could be made that, in certain situations, the Wraiths must actually make themselves corporeal to strike. Becoming corporeal in Dangerous Terrain requires that the Wraith make sure not to materialize on a fire / acid / gaping hole in the ground / whathavyou and it is the act of avoiding these dangers when materializing that slows them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Also, the argument could be made that, in certain situations, the Wraiths must actually make themselves corporeal to strike. Becoming corporeal in Dangerous Terrain requires that the Wraith make sure not to materialize on a fire / acid / gaping hole in the ground / whathavyou and it is the act of avoiding these dangers when materializing that slows them.

But they are not slowed by difficult terrain, and Dangerous terrain does not slow down models (AKA Reduce the distance they travel through that terrain)

They do have to be corpreal to strike; in fact, their attacks are based on the fact that they become corpreal with their claws inside the victim.

Not only that, but dangerous terrain can be seen as a lot more unpredictable than difficult terrain. Dangerous terrain isn't purely the chance that one of your guys stubs his toe on a spike, but the chance that part of something slips suddenly and cleaves him in twine, or part of the roof flattens him, or something explodes next to him, or all three at once.

Wraiths have to phase back in at some point, and it could well be argued that they are far from omnipotent enough to be able to predict that something with smack them in the face on the way in, or blow one of their claws off.

In the same vein, if the spirit of the rule implies that Wraiths simply avoid damage by phasing out, then why are they damaged at all? Why do do they not spend all game phased out except when they're attacking? If I shoot at them then they take damage; if I hit them in CC they take damage; if a vehicle blows up and hits them then they take damage; why would they not take damage if a chunk of something falls and collides with their face?

EDIT: In order to clarify, I am not arguing that they can fail the test, just that being slowed by having to move cautiously, and phasing through everything carefully, is not against the 'spirit of the rule'.

Wraiths keep their initiative in difficult terrain as they are never slowed by difficult terrain as in they aren't slowed by it. It is not dangerous terrain. There is no test for them to go through difficult as it states this. "wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain."

So would the general consensus be that because of this ruling, brotherhood banners could potentially perils?

Kitzz wrote:So would the general consensus be that because of this ruling, brotherhood banners could potentially perils?

Please, explain your reasoning.....like really spell it out.

Well they auto-pass too, don't they?

Kitzz wrote:Well they auto-pass too, don't they?

Is that your idea of "explaining your reasoning" (with the addendum of "really spelling it out")?!?

Kitzz wrote:Well they auto-pass too, don't they?

Auto pass means you dont roll, as they auto pass.

There is no test for them to go through difficult as it states this. "wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain

Difficult terrain tests are not married to being slowed by terrain. After all, if you roll a 6 for your terrain roll, it did not slow you down, but the test was still required. Same with wraiths. A rule saying you are 'not slowed by terrain', by itself, is not the same thing as a rule saying 'you dont test for terrain.'

Kitzz wrote:So would the general consensus be that because of this ruling, brotherhood banners could potentially perils?

Obviously no.
They've automatically passed the psychic test to activate their force weapons. This means they don't have to roll dice for the psychic test.
It just means they have taken the test and passed it, which means it can be hooded.

Kitzz wrote:Well they auto-pass too, don't they?

Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense. Wraiths don't need to roll for dangerous terrain test, this is given.
It's quite simple.
1) Wraiths assault through dangerous terrain.
2) Wraiths have to take Dangerous Terrain test.
3) Wraiths automatically pass the DT test, no dice are rolled.
3) Wraiths have taken DT test, so they strike at Init 1.

Anyone who disagrees with this reasoning is also arguing that Brotherhood Banner activation cannot be countered by Psychic Hood. (No Psychic test -> No hood).

Clearly some people are too busy to actually read the rest of the thread... but never fear, DogofWar is here!

Background:

"WRAITHFLIGHT - Wraiths are never slowed by Difficult Terrain, and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests." (C:Necrons, 44)

"IMMUNE TO NATURAL LAW - C'tan Shards ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain while moving." (C:Necrons, 40)

"TERRAIN - There are three general classes of terrain: clear, difficult and impassable. Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it, and can sometimes be dangerous to models passing through it." (BGB, 13)

"DANGEROUS TERRAIN - As mentioned previously, some terrain features will be dangerous to move through. This is represented by a dangerous terrain test." (BGB, 14)

"ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER - If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. [...] The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of closer range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all if its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers." (BGB, 36)

Conclusions

Both sides seem to agree that Wraiths do not have to take a Difficult Terrain test and are therefore NOT slowed to I1 when assaulting through Difficult Terrain as their rule specifically states that they are "never slowed by Difficult Terrain."

However, if a unit of Wraiths assault through Dangerous Terrain, we have two differing interpretations:

1) The Wraiths ARE slowed to I1 when assaulting through Dangerous Terrain for the following reasons:
a) Automatically passing a test requires that you must have taken a test even if you were not required to make a roll. A unit cannot automatically pass (or fail) a test without having to take the test.
b) If a unit takes a Dangerous Terrain test, they are slowed to I1 regardless of whether they pass or fail.
c) The language of the "Wraithflight" rule is notably different from the C'tan "Immune to Natural Law" rule so it is unlikely that they are designed to act in exactly the same way.

2) The Wraiths ARE NOT slowed to I1 when assaulting through Dangerous Terrain for the following reasons:
a) Automatically passing a test means that you never took the test in the first place. Unless you physically roll the dice, you have not taken a Dangerous Terrain test.
b) If you do not have to take a Dangerous Terrain test, you are not slowed to I1.

My personal view is that side 1 is correct and while Wraiths are NOT slowed to I1 when moving through Difficult Terrain, they ARE slowed to I1 when moving through Dangerous Terrain. The difference in wording between "Wraithflight" and "Immune to Natural Law" is pretty convincing in this case, I feel.

Ramifications

This would mean that in the example of a Brotherhood Banner, the GKs would never have to roll for the psychic test (since they automatically pass) but will still have taken the test. This results in the following:
1) The GKs will never fail their psychic test for activating their NFW. If you do not roll, (assuming Ld9) you cannot roll a 10, 11, or 12.
2) The GKs will never receive Perils of the Warp when activating their NFW. If you do not roll, (assuming Ld9), you cannot roll a 2 or 12.
3) Psychic hoods CAN affect the activation of NFW. Even though you do not roll, there is still a psychic test that has been passed, and therefore it is subject to nullification.

Hope this helps!

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:Clearly some people are too busy to actually read the rest of the thread... but never fear, DogofWar is here!

Background:

"WRAITHFLIGHT - Wraiths are never slowed by Difficult Terrain, and automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests." (C:Necrons, 44)

"IMMUNE TO NATURAL LAW - C'tan Shards ignore the effects of difficult and dangerous terrain while moving." (C:Necrons, 40)

"TERRAIN - There are three general classes of terrain: clear, difficult and impassable. Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it, and can sometimes be dangerous to models passing through it." (BGB, 13)

"DANGEROUS TERRAIN - As mentioned previously, some terrain features will be dangerous to move through. This is represented by a dangerous terrain test." (BGB, 14)

"ASSAULTING THROUGH COVER - If, following the rules for moving assaulting models (see page 34), any model in an assaulting unit will have to go through difficult or dangerous terrain as part of its assault move, the unit must take the relevant terrain test before moving. [...] The second disadvantage is that warriors who are assaulting through cover are subject to deadly salvoes of closer range fire as they slowly struggle to get to grips with their foe and may be ambushed by foes that are ready for them. To represent this, if an assaulting unit had to take a difficult or dangerous terrain test during their assault move, all if its models have their initiative lowered to 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers." (BGB, 36)

Conclusions

Both sides seem to agree that Wraiths do not have to take a Difficult Terrain test and are therefore NOT slowed to I1 when assaulting through Difficult Terrain as their rule specifically states that they are "never slowed by Difficult Terrain."

However, if a unit of Wraiths assault through Dangerous Terrain, we have two differing interpretations:

1) The Wraiths ARE slowed to I1 when assaulting through Dangerous Terrain for the following reasons:
a) Automatically passing a test requires that you must have taken a test even if you were not required to make a roll. A unit cannot automatically pass (or fail) a test without having to take the test.
b) If a unit takes a Dangerous Terrain test, they are slowed to I1 regardless of whether they pass or fail.
c) The language of the "Wraithflight" rule is notably different from the C'tan "Immune to Natural Law" rule so it is unlikely that they are designed to act in exactly the same way.

2) The Wraiths ARE NOT slowed to I1 when assaulting through Dangerous Terrain for the following reasons:
a) Automatically passing a test means that you never took the test in the first place. Unless you physically roll the dice, you have not taken a Dangerous Terrain test.
b) If you do not have to take a Dangerous Terrain test, you are not slowed to I1.

My personal view is that side 1 is correct and while Wraiths are NOT slowed to I1 when moving through Difficult Terrain, they ARE slowed to I1 when moving through Dangerous Terrain. The difference in wording between "Wraithflight" and "Immune to Natural Law" is pretty convincing in this case, I feel.

Ramifications

This would mean that in the example of a Brotherhood Banner, the GKs would never have to roll for the psychic test (since they automatically pass) but will still have taken the test. This results in the following:
1) The GKs will never fail their psychic test for activating their NFW. If you do not roll, (assuming Ld9) you cannot roll a 10, 11, or 12.
2) The GKs will never receive Perils of the Warp when activating their NFW. If you do not roll, (assuming Ld9), you cannot roll a 2 or 12.
3) Psychic hoods CAN affect the activation of NFW. Even though you do not roll, there is still a psychic test that has been passed, and therefore it is subject to nullification.

Hope this helps!

DoW

You're totally right, I just wanted to add 1 argument to Side 2 which I have seen:

Being reduced to Initiative 1 is a form of being "slowed."

And Wraithflight doesn't say anything about not being slowed by dangerous terrain. Therefore the word slowed has no relevance to the discussion.

Unit1126PLL wrote:You're totally right, I just wanted to add 1 argument to Side 2 which I have seen:
Being reduced to Initiative 1 is a form of being "slowed."

And it is completely worthless argument against Side 1 as we're not arguing that Wraiths are reduced to Init 1 when assaulting through difficult terrain.
We're arguing that they're reduced to Init 1 when assaulting through Dangerous terrain. Two completely different things.

There is also Side 3, which argues that Wraiths are hit at Init 1 even when assaulting through difficult terrain, but I don't think their argument holds water.
Reasoning on this has nothing to do with the arguments that hitting at Init 1 is somehow 'slowed' when it's pretty obvious the "slowed" refers to movement. (BRB pg 14, paragraph three).
It is because I think Wraiths (like Vehicles) don't have to take difficult terrain tests at all.

I'm still hung up on the fact that Wraiths are not slowed by difficult terrain, while C'Tan ignore the effects of terrain. To me (though I would never enforce it) it sounds like the Wraiths are assumed to always roll "6" for moving through difficult terrain, however, they still suffer an and all affects for doing so (i.e. Init drop). Again though, this is HIWPI if I was playing as Necrons.

They are not slowed by terrain, meaning they can never even take the test as this provides the possibility of them failing - this is different to saying they automatically pass the test, which would require them taking it just not needing to roll

It is a subtle difference in language.

So they ignore the effects of difficult terrain?

I'm not saying that I'm right, only how I interpret the rules, and how I would play it.

They ignore it by never being slowed by it - it is different than saying they auto pass a difficult terrain test.

As they dont take a test (to take a test would allow the possibility of being slowed, which is expressly forbidden) they are not dropped to I1. If they automatically "passed" the test( an odd statement, as DT tests dont have a pass / fail criteria attached) then they owuld be dropped to I1.