50704
Post by: blaze115
There's a lot of them, and they range from the incredibly simple, to the most over complicated stories in 40k fluff speculation. So, keeping in mind that it is only that, SPECULATION, what are the beliefs held by you members of dakkadakka? after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up. I'm looking for any and all ideas, concepts, stories, whatever you'v got to contribute. Lets see whats out there 
56718
Post by: ContemplativeSphinx
blaze115 wrote: after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up.
Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.
The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:blaze115 wrote: after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up.
Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.
The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.
Uh, what?
Anyways. The contradictions between the "original vision" and the "expanded vision" stems from the fact that Andy Hoare is a well-known Tau fan, and is responsible for the majority of fluff on them outside of the Codex. He's very much opposed to the idea of them being anything but "superclean great guys!", from everything I've seen.
42494
Post by: nomotog
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:blaze115 wrote: after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up.
Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.
The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.
I don't think that is what the OP is referring to. I think they are referring to the number of times the tau should have been killed off and how they keep going because of luck or a conspiracy. They just catch a lot of brakes.
56718
Post by: ContemplativeSphinx
Kanluwen wrote:ContemplativeSphinx wrote:blaze115 wrote: after all, a cursory glance of the scant amounts of tau back story just dont seem to add up.
Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.
The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.
Uh, what?
Anyways. The contradictions between the "original vision" and the "expanded vision" stems from the fact that Andy Hoare is a well-known Tau fan, and is responsible for the majority of fluff on them outside of the Codex. He's very much opposed to the idea of them being anything but "superclean great guys!", from everything I've seen.
Oh its not just Hoare.
Do you have a copy of White Dwarf 262 ? It has an interview with Andy Chambers commenting on the origins of the Tau - not the in-game origins but the "How we came about making the faction in the first place." With Graham Mcneill writing the fluff to boot.
The Tau fans loved it - still love it in fact and generally uphold that vision.
The rest of us...well... 
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nomotog wrote:
Much of that has to do with the fact that the Tau's story was kind of a....shall we say a "negotiated settlement" between the fans and its original creator.
The contradictions abound between an original vision and those who demanded something a bit more grimdark. GW merely split the difference.
I don't think that is what the OP is referring to. I think they are referring to the number of times the tau should have been killed off and how they keep going because of luck or a conspiracy. They just catch a lot of brakes.
Oic!
Well the only conspiracy theory i've ever heard that may account for that and the sudden warp storm over Tau itself was that the Tau are simply the "3rd Generation" of Slaan/Old One bioweapons.
The Eldar were made psyker sensitive.
The Krork/Ork were created with their own special brand of psyker powers (one that may run on a differetnt wavelength. or tap a completely different Immaterium!)
and the Tau are simply another trial - with a race that wasn't sensitive at all to the Warp.
Edit - as for the Warp Storm, the theory continues on saying that the Tau may not be the only residents on their original homeworld...
45020
Post by: TheAngrySquig
I heard that the Emperor may have caused the Warp storm so that one day humanity would be warp-free, but I cant say i believe it.
34612
Post by: Ledabot
There is the one that the ethereal use mind control in the form of pheromones to control the tau, and that the vespid are mind controlled by the helmets.
I don't know what the basis for the first one is. Maybe people think that the society is tooo perfect, so the only way to justify that is that the must be mind controlled. It’s an ok theory, but it would seem simpler to me that they should be reminded that tau are not human. They may not feel the deep inner urge to do douche things.
3933
Post by: Kingsley
Ledabot wrote:There is the one that the ethereal use mind control in the form of pheromones to control the tau, and that the vespid are mind controlled by the helmets.
I don't know what the basis for the first one is. Maybe people think that the society is tooo perfect, so the only way to justify that is that the must be mind controlled. It’s an ok theory, but it would seem simpler to me that they should be reminded that tau are not human. They may not feel the deep inner urge to do douche things.
The basis for the pheromone theory is probably the Xenology book, which explicitly says that it is the case.
34612
Post by: Ledabot
Fetterkey wrote:Ledabot wrote:There is the one that the ethereal use mind control in the form of pheromones to control the tau, and that the vespid are mind controlled by the helmets.
I don't know what the basis for the first one is. Maybe people think that the society is tooo perfect, so the only way to justify that is that the must be mind controlled. It’s an ok theory, but it would seem simpler to me that they should be reminded that tau are not human. They may not feel the deep inner urge to do douche things.
The basis for the pheromone theory is probably the Xenology book, which explicitly says that it is the case.
Ok. I just couldn't remember. Some would argue that its rubbish anyway but it shouldn't be ignored.
47877
Post by: Jefffar
I am a fan of the idea that the Tau were created or modified to be a counter to Chaos. It makes sense to me and the grimmer hints in the Codex and some fluff make me think that the Greater Good is more about Order than Good so they are a logical balance to Chaos too.
The next question is who uplifted the Tau?
I like the theory that the Covenant did it after the failure of the Horus Heresey to do what they wanted. The idea that it was the Emperor is interesting but I have a big issue with it simply because as long as humanity exists, especially when they are on the verge of another evolutionary jump as indicated in the big rule book, Chaos will feed off of them. I doubt the Emperor approved a plan that requires humanity to be exterminated.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Ledabot wrote:There is the one that the ethereal use mind control in the form of pheromones to control the tau, and that the vespid are mind controlled by the helmets.
I don't know what the basis for the first one is. Maybe people think that the society is tooo perfect, so the only way to justify that is that the must be mind controlled. It’s an ok theory, but it would seem simpler to me that they should be reminded that tau are not human. They may not feel the deep inner urge to do douche things.
Which is contradicted by their own fluff.
Till the Etherials came along(to the second) the Tau were hellbent on wiping each other out. Then the space popes came and suddenly everyone was happy and brofisting for the Greater Good.
Seems like pretty standard Sci-fi Mind Control to me.
55602
Post by: Hunterindarkness
Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.
56718
Post by: ContemplativeSphinx
Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.
That dichotomy is purposeful - another GW "sleight-of-hand" trick really.
The majority of Tau players prefer the original vision of the Tau conceived by its creators. ie: They reject the mind-control scenario.
Whereas a lot of Non-Tau players dislike the idea of "Space Pope/Philosophers coming to civilize the Tau."
8049
Post by: ArbitorIan
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.
That dichotomy is purposeful - another GW "sleight-of-hand" trick really.
The majority of Tau players prefer the original vision of the Tau conceived by its creators. ie: They reject the mind-control scenario.
Whereas a lot of Non-Tau players dislike the idea of "Space Pope/Philosophers coming to civilize the Tau."
While I quite liked the idea of the grimdark mind-controlling Tau, I don't mind the dark underbelly either.
But whatever stance GW took with the last codex, it's clear that Fantasy Flight aren't sticking with it - the Deathwatch Rulebook's section on the Tau is VERY dark, with abandonment of gue'la, forced abduction of human dissidents, 'population controls', mind control, evil conspiracies, etc. They actually come off as quite sinister and evil.
And we all know that FFG are usually very good at sticking to the GW IP. So I can only assume this was all approved.
Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 352 wrote:"What need you understand but the Greater Good? What more than the Greater Good can hold any concern for you? Ask not where your husband went. Rather, rejoice that his absence benefits us all!"
Maskin Quiore, Gue'la Water Caste Liason
56718
Post by: ContemplativeSphinx
[quote=ArbitorIanWhile I quite liked the idea of the grimdark mind-controlling Tau, I don't mind the dark underbelly either.
But whatever stance GW took with the last codex, it's clear that Fantasy Flight aren't sticking with it - the Deathwatch Rulebook's section on the Tau is VERY dark, with abandonment of gue'la, forced abduction of human dissidents, 'population controls', mind control, evil conspiracies, etc. They actually come off as quite sinister and evil.
And we all know that FFG are usually very good at sticking to the GW IP. So I can only assume this was all approved.
That was the part i actually LIKED about the Deathwatch RPG.
Except one of the authors of Mark of the Xenos stated that the goal was to portray the Tau neither as "Shining Happy Good Guys" nor as "Evil/Sinister/Despicable."
Yes with the Population Control and Abduction of Human Dissidents. But they also stuck their necks out in terms of protecting/curing a population of humans infected by the Genestealer virus. And freeing human populations from autarkic regimes prior to the Achilus Crusade.
Frankly given the whole blurb in the back about the Diplomacy efforts and methods of control employed, the Tau sound alot like...well..... Us. Or rather a Modern Nation-State of the 21st century.
FFG also put up a "Background Firewall" as i like to call it - mostly pointing out the near Autonomy and Unorthodox methods employed this particular Sept of the Tau due to its dire circumstances.
In other words - they left a Backdoor Escape Hatch open....again.....
And so the ridiculous dance continues 
Edit - To be explicit about that - what it means is that FFG has the capability (deployed on their own forums no less) to state that the conditions seen in any of their "Theaters of Activity"/Settings like the Koronus Expanse, the Calixis Sector,et al are specifically tailored to that region of space.
Its the ultimate "Get out of Jail free card" in the case one of the editors don't pick up on a contradiction in time.
42494
Post by: nomotog
ArbitorIan wrote:ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.
That dichotomy is purposeful - another GW "sleight-of-hand" trick really.
The majority of Tau players prefer the original vision of the Tau conceived by its creators. ie: They reject the mind-control scenario.
Whereas a lot of Non-Tau players dislike the idea of "Space Pope/Philosophers coming to civilize the Tau."
While I quite liked the idea of the grimdark mind-controlling Tau, I don't mind the dark underbelly either.
But whatever stance GW took with the last codex, it's clear that Fantasy Flight aren't sticking with it - the Deathwatch Rulebook's section on the Tau is VERY dark, with abandonment of gue'la, forced abduction of human dissidents, 'population controls', mind control, evil conspiracies, etc. They actually come off as quite sinister and evil.
And we all know that FFG are usually very good at sticking to the GW IP. So I can only assume this was all approved.
Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 352 wrote:"What need you understand but the Greater Good? What more than the Greater Good can hold any concern for you? Ask not where your husband went. Rather, rejoice that his absence benefits us all!"
Maskin Quiore, Gue'la Water Caste Liason
Are we sure that they are sticking to canon? I figured they added that second empire just so they could model the tau how they wanted without being bound by their canon.
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Yeah, it's a "theory" because the Tau background hasn't been spelled out definitively. And it hasn't been spelled out definitively because GW sells models to the "Oh hai gud guys!" crowd too, and if they came out and said "Hey, the Ethereals are oppressing and controlling the Tau through insidious means and pervasive propaganda and social engineering", they'd lose a lot of the demographic that buys their models.
But the fact of the matter is, if you do any, I mean even the slightest bit of contextual analysis, close reading, and deductive reasoning with the tau fluff, you realize a few things:
A: The Tau castes are loosely, but identifiably based off the social structure of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. The details aren't the same, but the structure and the roles are nearly identical, right down to the fact that each caste is physiologically suited for their jobs.
B: The Ethereals are controlling the Tau in some manner. Xenology suggests pheromones, but it was just a guess. But there's no question that something about the Ethereals has a tangible calming effect of the Tau, especially the Fire caste. When Farsight calmed down after running out of Ethereals, he took off, never to return. There are several theories about why, but ultimately, nobody from the Farsight Enclave has come back to re-join.
C: The Greater Good is a sham. It's a pervasive and comprehensive propaganda tool of the Ethereals. While on the surface the Tau are a bit less oppressive and far less grimdark or dystopic than the Imperium, they are still an aggressively expansionist empire that doesn't take no for an answer. The idea of The Greater Good only includes the greater good of the Tau. How you become part of the Tau... different story. The Greater Good is just concentrated, fierce nationalism based on the deception of a utilitarian philosophy enforced through constant brainwashing and social conditioning. While the average Tau probably believes in The Greater Good, and is probably not inherently evil, The Greater Good itself isn't "good" by any definition. It's simply an adapted, less overt, practical, interstellar policy given the shape and nature of the 40K universe.
In short, the Tau are a highly conditioned, socially programmed and socially engineered expansionist race with a pervasive level of social control that rivals the Imperium, only just more sophisticated.
56718
Post by: ContemplativeSphinx
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, it's a "theory" because the Tau background hasn't been spelled out definitively. And it hasn't been spelled out definitively because GW sells models to the "Oh hai gud guys!" crowd too, and if they came out and said "Hey, the Ethereals are oppressing and controlling the Tau through insidious means and pervasive propaganda and social engineering", they'd lose a lot of the demographic that buys their models.
That pretty much says it all.
The Tau were originally invented to "open up" a new market amongst players who didn't have an affinity toward any of the other factions in WH40K.
Heck - even today, like the present point in time, when a new person is introduced to Warhammer 40K's factions look how GW store employees describe the Tau to those new players.
IE: What is the marketing pitch? How do they sell the Tau?
It may not always be "Happy Utopian Space People" (although i've borne witness to a number of those sales pitches) but it ain't Orwell either.
as the old saying goes..
We are a minatures company. Not a gaming company.
Pursuit of _$$$$$_ and protection of the IP trumps all other concerns.
18690
Post by: Jimsolo
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, it's a "theory" because the Tau background hasn't been spelled out definitively. And it hasn't been spelled out definitively because GW sells models to the "Oh hai gud guys!" crowd too, and if they came out and said "Hey, the Ethereals are oppressing and controlling the Tau through insidious means and pervasive propaganda and social engineering", they'd lose a lot of the demographic that buys their models.
But the fact of the matter is, if you do any, I mean even the slightest bit of contextual analysis, close reading, and deductive reasoning with the tau fluff, you realize a few things:
A: The Tau castes are loosely, but identifiably based off the social structure of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. The details aren't the same, but the structure and the roles are nearly identical, right down to the fact that each caste is physiologically suited for their jobs.
B: The Ethereals are controlling the Tau in some manner. Xenology suggests pheromones, but it was just a guess. But there's no question that something about the Ethereals has a tangible calming effect of the Tau, especially the Fire caste. When Farsight calmed down after running out of Ethereals, he took off, never to return. There are several theories about why, but ultimately, nobody from the Farsight Enclave has come back to re-join.
C: The Greater Good is a sham. It's a pervasive and comprehensive propaganda tool of the Ethereals. While on the surface the Tau are a bit less oppressive and far less grimdark or dystopic than the Imperium, they are still an aggressively expansionist empire that doesn't take no for an answer. The idea of The Greater Good only includes the greater good of the Tau. How you become part of the Tau... different story. The Greater Good is just concentrated, fierce nationalism based on the deception of a utilitarian philosophy enforced through constant brainwashing and social conditioning. While the average Tau probably believes in The Greater Good, and is probably not inherently evil, The Greater Good itself isn't "good" by any definition. It's simply an adapted, less overt, practical, interstellar policy given the shape and nature of the 40K universe.
In short, the Tau are a highly conditioned, socially programmed and socially engineered expansionist race with a pervasive level of social control that rivals the Imperium, only just more sophisticated.
I agree with you on every point but A. I've seen people argue that the Tau are "loosely but identifiably" based on a number of sources. (Including Alan Dean Foster's races of the Purpose from The Damned trilogy.) I think that a number of sources may have influenced the creation of the Tau, and that the idea of 'multiple racial groups under a sinister influence but appearing outwardly unified' is a pervasive science fiction concept that is apparent in a number of possible influencing sources.
I do agree with you, however, that while the backstory in the Codexes does not ever outright say that the lesser Tau and their subject races are mind-controlled (through genetic manipulation, social engineering, brainwashing, pheremonal controls, subliminal suggestion, or a combination of all of the above) it spells it out pretty implicitly. I think it only takes a modicum of reading between the lines to get that impression, but that's just my opinion.
As to my own speculative conspiracy theories: I also think that the brainwashing of the Tau has gone to such an extreme that like the subject races of the Amplitur in the aforementioned Foster series, the lesser Tau are no longer wholly sentient, merely sophisticated animals beholden to the Ethereals. Only absent that control can they regain any kind of individual mindset, which to them would be like a coma patient waking up for the first time. (Which is what happened to Farsight.)
Those are just my opinions, of course. No two people seem to completely agree on this issue.
56718
Post by: ContemplativeSphinx
Jimsolo wrote:
I do agree with you, however, that while the backstory in the Codexes does not ever outright say that the lesser Tau and their subject races are mind-controlled (through genetic manipulation, social engineering, brainwashing, pheremonal controls, subliminal suggestion, or a combination of all of the above) it spells it out pretty implicitly. I think it only takes a modicum of reading between the lines to get that impression, but that's just my opinion.
I don't even think you need to read too far in between the lines to pull out the fact that they are implying some sort of social engineering (regardless of the manner of the it is accomplished).
The problem that ultimately arises is who is this directed toward?
We already know it isn't the average Tau Player. The fanion has arrived at a consensus viewpoint of the Tau that cleaves strongly toward Chambers/McNeill/Hoare's work.
And ultimately they are the ones who "pay the bills" so to speak for that line to continue.
So if its not them.......
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Jimsolo wrote:Veteran Sergeant wrote:A: The Tau castes are loosely, but identifiably based off the social structure of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. The details aren't the same, but the structure and the roles are nearly identical, right down to the fact that each caste is physiologically suited for their jobs.
I agree with you on every point but A. I've seen people argue that the Tau are "loosely but identifiably" based on a number of sources. (Including Alan Dean Foster's races of the Purpose from The Damned trilogy.) I think that a number of sources may have influenced the creation of the Tau, and that the idea of 'multiple racial groups under a sinister influence but appearing outwardly unified' is a pervasive science fiction concept that is apparent in a number of possible influencing sources.
It's entirely possible. But it may be important to note that Huxley's book was published in 1932 and is an essential classic in English language literature, so if there are similarities between the Tau caste structure and other books, it's probably a fair bet that those books were also influenced by Brave New World lol.
41484
Post by: darkcloud92
nomotog wrote:ArbitorIan wrote:ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah I always got a mind-control vib from them myself. At the very lest they have a calming ability.
That dichotomy is purposeful - another GW "sleight-of-hand" trick really.
The majority of Tau players prefer the original vision of the Tau conceived by its creators. ie: They reject the mind-control scenario.
Whereas a lot of Non-Tau players dislike the idea of "Space Pope/Philosophers coming to civilize the Tau."
While I quite liked the idea of the grimdark mind-controlling Tau, I don't mind the dark underbelly either.
But whatever stance GW took with the last codex, it's clear that Fantasy Flight aren't sticking with it - the Deathwatch Rulebook's section on the Tau is VERY dark, with abandonment of gue'la, forced abduction of human dissidents, 'population controls', mind control, evil conspiracies, etc. They actually come off as quite sinister and evil.
And we all know that FFG are usually very good at sticking to the GW IP. So I can only assume this was all approved.
Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 352 wrote:"What need you understand but the Greater Good? What more than the Greater Good can hold any concern for you? Ask not where your husband went. Rather, rejoice that his absence benefits us all!"
Maskin Quiore, Gue'la Water Caste Liason
Are we sure that they are sticking to canon? I figured they added that second empire just so they could model the tau how they wanted without being bound by their canon.
No deathwatch is not cannon at all actually. I like how most people often hate the fact that the Tau seemed to be made to appeal to Tau fans lolz As if that's not the same for every army.
But on topic, every cannon conspiracy theory is in the current codex, and if you havn't read the back story in the codex then you have no business arguing one way or the other on them imo. As to the conspiracy theories validity or not? The codex and information that we have on the tau are from the biased opinion of the Imperium. So of course they are going to have some grimdark conspiracies that make them seem not so perfect to the Imperial citizens. Its a tactic that has been used in humanities history. The Germans and many other nations did it to the jews, and the americans to the japanese. In the codex it explicitly states that there is no evidence to back up any of the conspiracy theories, something I found very strange imo, but at least they were honest. I don't think their lack of grimdarkness makes them out of place in the universe at all, or boring. Boring would be having every race exactly the same. The non dark Eldar arn;t really that grim dark at all either, but people seem to forget that. If anything I just think it makes the universe as a whole more interesting and 3-D
56718
Post by: ContemplativeSphinx
darkcloud92 wrote:No deathwatch is not cannon at all actually.
Well the broader matter of FFG's material being "canonical" or not is a bit tricky - esp. since GW has rejected the notion of canon time and time again.
I think the more appropriate way of phrasing it would be - "Do the RPG books have the same type of "weight" in terms of fluff/fiction that one could ascribe to a codex or a fictional work from BL?"
The answer seems to be no....except (oh come on you knew this was coming folks ).....
Unless Kurgan (from the Bolter & Chainsword group who got to playtest GW and actually have a chat with the designers) was lying, they were explicitly told that FFG's RPG "wasn't canonical unless GW said so".
And the Tap Dance continues.
This is further complicated by the fact that some of the original GW staff have worked on FFG products. So when someone like Andy Hoare decides to write up a book on say the Sisters of Battle (which he did a lot of work on while with GW) - the folks who are fans of SoB are more than likely to accept his views as being "canonical."
I like how most people often hate the fact that the Tau seemed to be made to appeal to Tau fans lolz As if that's not the same for every army.
It comes right down to the, shall we say inherent contradiction that others feel about the inclusion of the Tau in 40K. Or at least their initial rendition.
As i'm sure you've seen (assuming you are a Tau fan), there have been a number of attempts to incorporate a more Grimdark flavor to your faction....followed by a subsequent pushback by your own community.
So, we have "Track 2" strategy - which Veteran has outlined above......
..which your community has also rejected...
To be absolutely frank and cynical about this - i wonder exactly who "Track 2" was made for. It obviously not you folks - nor do I think GW's out to "convert" the Tau player base to a certain viewpoint.
They make a product which you as a consumer are already excited about. Altering the "formula" if you will would be risky.
So i'm forced to conclude that "Track 2" was meant to buy us off - us being the NonTau players.
To buy our complicity essentially, so we could argue in open forum that the Tau players are deluded.
And so we go through the motions - the conversation ends in a huff (as it always does) - and GW walks away from it all scot free.
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
darkcloud92 wrote: The non dark Eldar arn;t really that grim dark at all either, but people seem to forget that.
A once proud race, which unleashed a dark god because of their arrogance and excess, was slaughtered by it, and are now slowly dying out... isn't grimdark?
No wonder Tau players are so confused. You guys don't even know what the idea of grimdark is. The Imperial Fists can't be grimdark either. I mean, what kind of dark color is yellow?
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:And so we go through the motions - the conversation ends in a huff (as it always does) - and GW walks away from it all scot free.
Exactly. The material is there. Read the Imperial Armor book with the Tau. In that story, the Tau show up, with the clear intention of subverting the government of Taros. They manipulate the governor so they slowly subvert him and his government, knowing that once the Imperium found out, the governor would have no choice but to turn to them for help. The Tau brought war and ruin to Taros intentionally "for the Greater Good".
These aren't good guys. But as long as GW can keep it ambiguous, and not admit it, they can also pretend the opposite by writing the Tau codex books from the "Tau point of view". The lack of appreciation and understanding of context is no surprise though. Look how badly misunderstood Codex: Space Marines and the fluff about the Ultramarines is.
53173
Post by: Fralethepalewhale
I had a thread where I stated that the Tau were perhaps a little more grimdark then they appear. It compared the Tau to the book A Brave New World. Just my 2 cents.
51173
Post by: DoctorZombie
Anyone ever heard the Horus on the Golden Throne one?
53938
Post by: Tun_Tau
Fralethepalewhale wrote:I had a thread where I stated that the Tau were perhaps a little more grimdark then they appear. It compared the Tau to the book A Brave New World. Just my 2 cents.
The Brave New World is about western culture and I do not imagine the tau running around worrying about fashion, soma and praising the greater ford. Now get back to painting your minatures delta and rest your head.
53173
Post by: Fralethepalewhale
Haha I talked about the Caste system and how they were not equal. And the Alphas controlled everything (Ethereal). I also talked about the people who weren't cloned (Kroot, Vespid, Gue'Vasa...spelling?) were not treated as equal. Along with a few of the lower members in the caste system.
I can't paint for crap, that's why I have epsilons like YOU do it for me 
53938
Post by: Tun_Tau
We have the caste system he talked about. Its based on quality and level of education. (i.e. conditioning )
I view the tau caste system as being of a more pragmatic division of labor and of also having an equality between them that is missing in Brave New World.
But back to the subject.
My favorite line of tau conspiracy theories is on the farsight enclaves . I can't wait to see what comes out next about it.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
DoctorZombie wrote:Anyone ever heard the Horus on the Golden Throne one?
That has nothing to do with the Tau, the Tau had barely stood upright when the HH was in full swing.
O, and thats HERESY!!!
53173
Post by: Fralethepalewhale
I honestly don't think there is a whole lot of eqaulity between the castes but that is strictly IMO. To each his own.
I second the Farsight stuff. I wanna see what happens to him.
To make a whole new conspiracy I think that Shadowsun is a robot. Think she wasn't really heard about until after Farsight left and then after Farsight left she just HAPPENED to become the next big thing at the proper time? Hmmmm fishy. The Ethereal's did it as a propaganda tool.
41484
Post by: darkcloud92
ContemplativeSphinx wrote:darkcloud92 wrote:No deathwatch is not cannon at all actually.
Well the broader matter of FFG's material being "canonical" or not is a bit tricky - esp. since GW has rejected the notion of canon time and time again.
I think the more appropriate way of phrasing it would be - "Do the RPG books have the same type of "weight" in terms of fluff/fiction that one could ascribe to a codex or a fictional work from BL?"
The answer seems to be no....except (oh come on you knew this was coming folks ).....
Unless Kurgan (from the Bolter & Chainsword group who got to playtest GW and actually have a chat with the designers) was lying, they were explicitly told that FFG's RPG "wasn't canonical unless GW said so".
And the Tap Dance continues.
This is further complicated by the fact that some of the original GW staff have worked on FFG products. So when someone like Andy Hoare decides to write up a book on say the Sisters of Battle (which he did a lot of work on while with GW) - the folks who are fans of SoB are more than likely to accept his views as being "canonical."
I like how most people often hate the fact that the Tau seemed to be made to appeal to Tau fans lolz As if that's not the same for every army.
It comes right down to the, shall we say inherent contradiction that others feel about the inclusion of the Tau in 40K. Or at least their initial rendition.
As i'm sure you've seen (assuming you are a Tau fan), there have been a number of attempts to incorporate a more Grimdark flavor to your faction....followed by a subsequent pushback by your own community.
So, we have "Track 2" strategy - which Veteran has outlined above......
..which your community has also rejected...
To be absolutely frank and cynical about this - i wonder exactly who "Track 2" was made for. It obviously not you folks - nor do I think GW's out to "convert" the Tau player base to a certain viewpoint.
They make a product which you as a consumer are already excited about. Altering the "formula" if you will would be risky.
So i'm forced to conclude that "Track 2" was meant to buy us off - us being the NonTau players.
To buy our complicity essentially, so we could argue in open forum that the Tau players are deluded.
And so we go through the motions - the conversation ends in a huff (as it always does) - and GW walks away from it all scot free.
ya that's how every forum debate ends, no one wins. lol I have no problem with Tau being more darker, but they certainly don't have to be just to suit tau haters fancy. I do not find their lack of grim darkness as misplacement, as I stated before. The eldar arn't that grim dark either. If anything the fact that the tau are not super dark is their whole lore and what makes them interesting and unique. It would be like me whining about Space Marines power armor, or the grey knights being incurruptable
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Post by: ArbitorIan
darkcloud92 wrote:
No deathwatch is not cannon at all actually. I like how most people often hate the fact that the Tau seemed to be made to appeal to Tau fans lolz As if that's not the same for every army.
But on topic, every cannon conspiracy theory is in the current codex, and if you havn't read the back story in the codex then you have no business arguing one way or the other on them imo. As to the conspiracy theories validity or not? The codex and information that we have on the tau are from the biased opinion of the Imperium.
Someone has already brought up the age old 'There is no canon in 40k' line. I believe it still stands.
My point wasn't that the Codex is more or less 'canon' than anything else. It was more to do with the timing.
The Tau Codex, which is very good-guys in tone, is rather old now, and written at a time when there wasn't that much Tau fluff around. It's also a 4ed Codex, which is written from a more out-of-game, objective point of view, unlike the 3ed Codexes, which were very in-game, Imperial point of view. There is no evidence that the whole 4ed Codex is written completely from the Tau or Imperial point of view.
Since the release of the 4ed Tau Codex, much more fluff has been written about the Tau, either from GW or from licensed sources that GW is known to vet. Since almost all this fluff seems to be 'darkening' the Tau, I think we can safely assume that the next Tau codex is going to be more dark.
Of course, everything will always be rumours in 40k - they never admit anything one was or the other, and 'anything is possible', because it leaves the world more open to customisation by players...
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Fralethepalewhale wrote:I had a thread where I stated that the Tau were perhaps a little more grimdark then they appear. It compared the Tau to the book A Brave New World. Just my 2 cents.
The comparison to Brave New World is pretty obvious and common.
In fact, I already brought it up in this thread...
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Post by: Fralethepalewhale
Really? I honestly hadn't really heard of it until I made the thread. Where else did you read it?!
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Um, I've read the book, and I've said it countless times before. But it seems to come up in every Tau thread.
It's fairly obvious BNW is the main inspiration for the Tau. Given how derivative everything else in 40K, and on purpose, it's no surprise though.
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Post by: Fralethepalewhale
Ohhhhh I thought you were saying that you read the BNW idea in another thread before. Nevermind!
I thought the main inspiration for the Tau came from eastern Asian culture? Considering the FW's look a lot like samurai, and the whole "anime army" stereotype
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
The army was styled to look like the various "mecha" cartoons from Japan, sure. The back story has almost nothing to do with eastern Asia though. They look like Mecha because that was one of the few demographics that 40K hadn't hooked yet. The styling of the army was just carefully chosen as a marketing ploy. Asian culture has nothing to do with the Tau, really. Some people like to draw the caste parallels, but honestly, there's little about the Tau that's more feudal Japanese or Chinese than it is to feudal Europe.
The whole samurai look thing is very easy to pick up on though, and again, though, it was probably just a styling decision to appeal to that demographic since after the looks, there's not much about the way the Fire Caste acts that is reminiscent of samurai.
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Post by: Tun_Tau
Hey " Brave New World" has a caste system and Tau have a caste system so they must be the same!
is kind of a shallow comparision. What besides that do you see in Tau fluff?
Look up Utilitarianism. Tau are more John Stuart Mill than Aldous Huxley.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Don't act too arrogant son. I can give you a detailed lesson on the similarities, but that's not worth the time. Slow your roll, read the book, and you'll see the similarities. Here are the bullet points for you:
Tiered caste system with members of each caste physiologically tailored to their specific job and forbidden to intermix? Check.
Extensive social engineering? Check.
Subtle social control (pills in one, Ethereal subliminal dominance in the other)? Check.
A united populace behind extensive propaganda? Check.
Outlying societies which live beyond the fringes of government control which have rejected the social control of the central governing body? Check.
There may be a small element of superficial Ultilitarianism in the Tau background, but the problem is that The Greater Good is bs. It's a sham, a pervasive propaganda system, not an actual utilitarian philosophy. The Greater Good isn't actually about utilitarian beliefs, as there isn't actually a concern for the best overall life for everyone, only the most efficient use of resources.
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Post by: Fralethepalewhale
Tun_Tau wrote:Hey " Brave New World" has a caste system and Tau have a caste system so they must be the same!
is kind of a shallow comparision. What besides that do you see in Tau fluff?
Look up Utilitarianism. Tau are more John Stuart Mill than Aldous Huxley.
Technologically advanced...classically conditioned...some despair between the castes...equal castes (but not really) one caste that rules the other castes...not allowed to interbreed...a almost type of invisible mind control or just manipulation of the populace. Among other things, go easy bud, fighting on the internet is like earning the title biggest loser. I mean yeah you won the title but its still for biggest loser. Chill brotha man
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Post by: nomotog
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Don't act too arrogant son. I can give you a detailed lesson on the similarities, but that's not worth the time. Slow your roll, read the book, and you'll see the similarities. Here are the bullet points for you:
Tiered caste system with members of each caste physiologically tailored to their specific job and forbidden to intermix? Check.
Extensive social engineering? Check.
Subtle social control (pills in one, Ethereal subliminal dominance in the other)? Check.
A united populace behind extensive propaganda? Check.
Outlying societies which live beyond the fringes of government control which have rejected the social control of the central governing body? Check.
There may be a small element of superficial Ultilitarianism in the Tau background, but the problem is that The Greater Good is bs. It's a sham, a pervasive propaganda system, not an actual utilitarian philosophy. The Greater Good isn't actually about utilitarian beliefs, as there isn't actually a concern for the best overall life for everyone, only the most efficient use of resources.
Where do you get your information on the tau?
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Post by: Tun_Tau
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Don't act too arrogant son. I can give you a detailed lesson on the similarities, but that's not worth the time. Slow your roll, read the book, and you'll see the similarities. Here are the bullet points for you:
Tiered caste system with members of each caste physiologically tailored to their specific job and forbidden to intermix? Check.
Extensive social engineering? Check.
Subtle social control (pills in one, Ethereal subliminal dominance in the other)? Check.
A united populace behind extensive propaganda? Check.
Outlying societies which live beyond the fringes of government control which have rejected the social control of the central governing body? Check.
There may be a small element of superficial Ultilitarianism in the Tau background, but the problem is that The Greater Good is bs. It's a sham, a pervasive propaganda system, not an actual utilitarian philosophy. The Greater Good isn't actually about utilitarian beliefs, as there isn't actually a concern for the best overall life for everyone, only the most efficient use of resources.
1. You described any caste system. And yes they both have that.
2. On one hand you have BNW's self medicating population or on the other musings of Imperial officials
3. Only evidence in 40k of extensive propaganda is by the Imperium of Man.
4. Yes they both have that and every other faction in 40k, and as far as I know the Tau are the only faction trying to resolve it through diplomancy. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aun%27shi
In the Tau fluff the society is built around positive goals rather than negative prohibitions and working as a cohesive society based off of concern for the greater good . There is no evidence they are not concerned about the best overall life for everyone.I think what your describing is the Imperium of Man.
If I had to make a point for your comparision it would be how they treated the dissidents in brave new world, that is rather Tau like.
I don't believe having an opinion is being arrogant. At the very worst it makes me opinionated. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was not willing to listen to your point of view.
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Post by: darkcloud92
Idk im kinda not to big on the whole BNW and Tau connection. Did the makers say that was their main bases? B/c although they are similar in your bullet points, thats about as far as the similarities go. It is much more coincidence imo. Like play around with numbers long enough and you can find any kinda correlation you want. Take any current sci series, movie, etc. and you can be sure that there is something further back that is similar that has no relation at all. The Tau society is much different when you look at it, even in your bullet points.
Pills from BNW and whatever motivates the Tau to enjoy their new society are two completely different things for all we know. There is no reason that it couldn't be that the Tau simply enjoy their new way of life and willing choose to belong to it. Farsight didn't like it, so he flew off to start his own shoot off.
The outfringes of the BNW society and the tau's allies? Totally different. Their entirely new species and societies that were already formed when the Tau met them. The outlands in BNW were formed by people who rejected the society and chose to live outside it.
So outlandish claims like Tau are BNW, Tau are Communism are really just theories. I mean hey the Imperium is BNW by that logic, by all the points listed above.
Pills=Propoganda/God Emperor? Check
Outlands=Rebel human planets? Check
Extensive Social Engineering? Check
A caste system where people are physilogically tailored to their specific job and pretty much forbidden to intermix? Check (Space marine, Hab workers, Adeptus Machinus, need I go on?)
Subtle Social Control? Well is sure as hell aint subtle in either case so check
Now lets compare Harry Potter to the Eldar and MLP to the tyranids, and on and on and on. So like I said interesting theory, but flawed and certainly not beyond a doubt truth
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
See, this is why there's no reasoning with Tau players, lol.
They're too stubborn to admit the obvious similarities, and instead try, fruitlessly, and hilariously badly, to turn it into a nitpicking of semantics like the difference between Soma and the Ehtereal mind alteration (if not control) that is implicit in the fluff.
Nobody said the Tau fluff copied Brave New World. They said it is obviously inspired by it. I know these are complicated ideas.
The outliers in BNW aren't equivalent to the Tau allies goofball. Good lord, it's like everything has to be spelled out. I assumed a Tau fan would know Tau fluff well enough to make the connection to the Farsight Enclave without prompting.
And no, I didn't describe any caste system. Go look up the word physiological, lol. I'm going to say that there are exactly zero examples of that with any existing caste system in the history of Earth.
I f you don't understand the other bullet points, and it's painfully obvious that you don't, I can't really be bothered to educate you. I can only suggest taking some courses in critical thinking and/or literature, maybe poli sci, and history at a local university or college. Trying to impart my extensive education on you in a compressed format like the forum seems pointless. It will take you a while to catch up with the rest of us, but eventually, you'll be there. If you're not of college age yet, then accept my apologies, but also my suggestion that you remain out of arenas you've not yet gained sufficient knowledge and experience to participate in. /shrug
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Post by: Fralethepalewhale
I think the nitpicking is all in good fun. Or I could be very mistaken. Who knows.
Yeah I mean I wouldn't think that GW would be sold bold as to copy BNW. I mean they aren't creative enough to make something completely new. But not dumb enough to steal someone else's stuff.
But honestly who cares if it is about Brave New World or not? Isn't this thread about conspiracy theories? I probably shouldn't have brought it up. But I don't want this thread to get closed I just want to see some of the other Tau conspiracy's and stuff.
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Post by: Tun_Tau
Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is why there's no reasoning with Tau players, lol.
They're too stubborn to admit the obvious similarities, and instead try, fruitlessly, and hilariously badly, to turn it into a nitpicking of semantics like the difference between Soma and the Ehtereal mind alteration (if not control) that is implicit in the fluff.
Nobody said the Tau fluff copied Brave New World. They said it is obviously inspired by it. I know these are complicated ideas.
The outliers in BNW aren't equivalent to the Tau allies goofball. Good lord, it's like everything has to be spelled out. I assumed a Tau fan would know Tau fluff well enough to make the connection to the Farsight Enclave without prompting.
And no, I didn't describe any caste system. Go look up the word physiological, lol. I'm going to say that there are exactly zero examples of that with any existing caste system in the history of Earth.
I f you don't understand the other bullet points, and it's painfully obvious that you don't, I can't really be bothered to educate you. I can only suggest taking some courses in critical thinking and/or literature, maybe poli sci, and history at a local university or college. Trying to impart my extensive education on you in a compressed format like the forum seems pointless. It will take you a while to catch up with the rest of us, but eventually, you'll be there. If you're not of college age yet, then accept my apologies, but also my suggestion that you remain out of arenas you've not yet gained sufficient knowledge and experience to participate in. /shrug
You should get a refund on your extensive education.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
It's served me fairly well so far. Get paid well. Get to make fun of people like you.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
The connections between Tau and BNW are obvious and apparent to everyone.
Or so I thought. Clearly people can't read, or at least understand ideas.
Oh, and whomever said that the Tau were Utilitarian needs to re-read Mill. The Tau Empire does not generate Hedons nor does it even redistribute them. It merely ensures the most efficient use of resources, including manpower, in the same manner as the early Soviet Union (I.e. significant social engineering).
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Post by: Jefffar
Brave New World and other dystopian fiction definitely plays an inspirational role in the entire WH40K universe. Certain elements appearing more heavily in one faction or another. To cite a single work as the sole (or even primary) inspiration for a particular faction is problematic due to the heavy bleed over.
I rather enjoy the way the Tau codex has been set up. it contains all the elements necessary for one to believe that the Tau are a faction of idealistic do-gooders lead by the wise counsel of the Ethereals. At the same time it gives you all the seeds to believe they are a dystopic society along the likes of Brave New World, 1984 or Equilibrium. A cult-like group that follows the dictates of the Ethereals, expanding their influence by conquest and conversion throughout sector.
Most of the recent fluff products seem to be running with the latter scenario exclusively, which disappoints me because the Tau Empire is so much richer if they seem both good and heinous at the same time.
I personally like the idea that another faction may have been behind the rise of the Tau. I especially liek the idea that it isn't a directly playable faction, but instead is something like the Covenant, a faction made up of an alliance of diverse races but not wholly representing any one race. Because of that you ma see the Eldar occasionally assisting the Tau while at other times giving them a good stomping to remind them of thier place. Certain Imperium factions may also lend their support to the Tau from time to time.
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Post by: darkcloud92
Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is why there's no reasoning with Tau players, lol.
They're too stubborn to admit the obvious similarities, and instead try, fruitlessly, and hilariously badly, to turn it into a nitpicking of semantics like the difference between Soma and the Ehtereal mind alteration (if not control) that is implicit in the fluff.
Nobody said the Tau fluff copied Brave New World. They said it is obviously inspired by it. I know these are complicated ideas.
The outliers in BNW aren't equivalent to the Tau allies goofball. Good lord, it's like everything has to be spelled out. I assumed a Tau fan would know Tau fluff well enough to make the connection to the Farsight Enclave without prompting.
And no, I didn't describe any caste system. Go look up the word physiological, lol. I'm going to say that there are exactly zero examples of that with any existing caste system in the history of Earth.
I f you don't understand the other bullet points, and it's painfully obvious that you don't, I can't really be bothered to educate you. I can only suggest taking some courses in critical thinking and/or literature, maybe poli sci, and history at a local university or college. Trying to impart my extensive education on you in a compressed format like the forum seems pointless. It will take you a while to catch up with the rest of us, but eventually, you'll be there. If you're not of college age yet, then accept my apologies, but also my suggestion that you remain out of arenas you've not yet gained sufficient knowledge and experience to participate in. /shrug
well you have clearly shown you know about both more than me, an your opinion is undoubtedly law. But there is no reasoning with either side, its an online forum lolz
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Post by: nomotog
Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is why there's no reasoning with Tau players, lol.
They're too stubborn to admit the obvious similarities, and instead try, fruitlessly, and hilariously badly, to turn it into a nitpicking of semantics like the difference between Soma and the Ehtereal mind alteration (if not control) that is implicit in the fluff.
Nobody said the Tau fluff copied Brave New World. They said it is obviously inspired by it. I know these are complicated ideas.
The outliers in BNW aren't equivalent to the Tau allies goofball. Good lord, it's like everything has to be spelled out. I assumed a Tau fan would know Tau fluff well enough to make the connection to the Farsight Enclave without prompting.
And no, I didn't describe any caste system. Go look up the word physiological, lol. I'm going to say that there are exactly zero examples of that with any existing caste system in the history of Earth.
I f you don't understand the other bullet points, and it's painfully obvious that you don't, I can't really be bothered to educate you. I can only suggest taking some courses in critical thinking and/or literature, maybe poli sci, and history at a local university or college. Trying to impart my extensive education on you in a compressed format like the forum seems pointless. It will take you a while to catch up with the rest of us, but eventually, you'll be there. If you're not of college age yet, then accept my apologies, but also my suggestion that you remain out of arenas you've not yet gained sufficient knowledge and experience to participate in. /shrug
No we do know tau fluff. That's why your comparison seems like such a poor fit. It's like you decided that they(Tau BNW) are related and then used that information to fill in the information gaps about the tau. That's why you thought that had propaganda. It's not unreasonable to think that they whould, but nothing in tau fluff mentions it. You assumed it was there because it fit your theory.
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Post by: Tadashi
nomotog wrote:
No we do know tau fluff. That's why your comparison seems like such a poor fit. It's like you decided that they(Tau BNW) are related and then used that information to fill in the information gaps about the tau. That's why you thought that had propaganda. It's not unreasonable to think that they whould, but nothing in tau fluff mentions it. You assumed it was there because it fit your theory.
Actually, even if he is using BNW to fill in the gaps, just by reading in between the lines of the Tau fluff, it's implied that everything he said is true. The Tau Caste System and Social Engineering - Supposed to be equal, huh? That's untrue. Who monopolizes the government, the Ethereal Caste. Who monopolizes trade, the Water Caste. Who monopolizes the military, the Fire Caste. Who monopolizes real estate, the Earth Caste. Who monopolizes the aerospace industry, the Air Caste. Basically, each caste is tailored to control one aspect of society, to the point that non-caste members or non-Tau can't enter or achieve high positions in said areas. If a Ethereal wants to be farmer, he can't. His caste basically forces him to be a politician. Gue'vasa/Kroot/Vespid may govern their worlds, but they have absolutely no chance of entering the higher levels of Tau government simply because it's under Ethereal monopoly. Same with the military - Fire Caste Commanders are ultimately the ones in charge. Equal, huh? Untrue. United Population under Propaganda - less propaganda and more mind control. When the first Ethereals appeared, everyone suddenly made a 180-degree turn in personality. Even lowly hab-workers would raise their eyebrows at such a drastic change. Vespid Translation Helms? I'm pretty sure I've watched at least one anime series where electrical pulses are used to control cognitive functions, and that same thing is used in The Terminal Man. The Greater Good is BS - at first glance it looks good, right? Wrong. It makes the Tau look like hypocrites. When you ask Imperials about the HUGE sacrifices made by the Imperium, the answer basically boils down to 'Innocents die so Humanity can live.' When Eldar are asked the same question, the answer boils down to 'What are Human worlds compared to Eldar Craftworlds?' When you ask Tau the same question, they will answer 'It's for the Greater Good.' And they have the gall to call themselves benevolent. Imperials and Eldar are honest - they know what they do isn't 'good', so they have a grey and black mentality, where they're in the grey and their enemies are black. Tau keep a black and white mentality where they're in the white and everyone else is in the black. Farsight is more honest. He should just come back and slaughter all the Ethereals, starting with that annoying Space Pope. Not to mention that the Greater Good is only meant to benefit the Tau. The Gue'vasa are just 'helpers', and hasn't anyone noticed that the Tau do nothing to rectify the fact that the Gue'vasa will be the first to be crushed by an Imperial Crusade? They're a buffer, and the Tau know it. Greater Good, huh? And the Tau look down on the Kroot even if they're supposed to be equal under the Greater Good. Hypocrites...
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Post by: darkcloud92
Tadashi wrote:nomotog wrote:
No we do know tau fluff. That's why your comparison seems like such a poor fit. It's like you decided that they(Tau BNW) are related and then used that information to fill in the information gaps about the tau. That's why you thought that had propaganda. It's not unreasonable to think that they whould, but nothing in tau fluff mentions it. You assumed it was there because it fit your theory.
Actually, even if he is using BNW to fill in the gaps, just by reading in between the lines of the Tau fluff, it's implied that everything he said is true.
The Tau Caste System and Social Engineering
- Supposed to be equal, huh? That's untrue. Who monopolizes the government, the Ethereal Caste. Who monopolizes trade, the Water Caste. Who monopolizes the military, the Fire Caste. Who monopolizes real estate, the Earth Caste. Who monopolizes the aerospace industry, the Air Caste. Basically, each caste is tailored to control one aspect of society, to the point that non-caste members or non-Tau can't enter or achieve high positions in said areas. If a Ethereal wants to be farmer, he can't. His caste basically forces him to be a politician. Gue'vasa/Kroot/Vespid may govern their worlds, but they have absolutely no chance of entering the higher levels of Tau government simply because it's under Ethereal monopoly. Same with the military - Fire Caste Commanders are ultimately the ones in charge. Equal, huh? Untrue.
United Population under Propaganda
- less propaganda and more mind control. When the first Ethereals appeared, everyone suddenly made a 180-degree turn in personality. Even lowly hab-workers would raise their eyebrows at such a drastic change. Vespid Translation Helms? I'm pretty sure I've watched at least one anime series where electrical pulses are used to control cognitive functions, and that same thing is used in The Terminal Man.
The Greater Good is BS
- at first glance it looks good, right? Wrong. It makes the Tau look like hypocrites. When you ask Imperials about the HUGE sacrifices made by the Imperium, the answer basically boils down to 'Innocents die so Humanity can live.' When Eldar are asked the same question, the answer boils down to 'What are Human worlds compared to Eldar Craftworlds?' When you ask Tau the same question, they will answer 'It's for the Greater Good.' And they have the gall to call themselves benevolent. Imperials and Eldar are honest - they know what they do isn't 'good', so they have a grey and black mentality, where they're in the grey and their enemies are black. Tau keep a black and white mentality where they're in the white and everyone else is in the black. Farsight is more honest. He should just come back and slaughter all the Ethereals, starting with that annoying Space Pope. Not to mention that the Greater Good is only meant to benefit the Tau. The Gue'vasa are just 'helpers', and hasn't anyone noticed that the Tau do nothing to rectify the fact that the Gue'vasa will be the first to be crushed by an Imperial Crusade? They're a buffer, and the Tau know it. Greater Good, huh? And the Tau look down on the Kroot even if they're supposed to be equal under the Greater Good. Hypocrites...
its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.
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Post by: Tadashi
darkcloud92 wrote:
its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.
I know what they do is best for their society, I just wish they'd admit the dark part of whatever it is they're doing. You don't see Imperials or Eldar hide it. The details are unknown, of course, but all Imperials and Eldar at least know some part of the dirty little secrets of their factions. Tau don't. They automatically assume they're the 'good guys'. Except for Farsight, of course. He's the only Tau I really respect. And what do you mean by: partially b.c it wouldn't make sense
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Post by: darkcloud92
Tadashi wrote:darkcloud92 wrote:
its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.
I know what they do is best for their society, I just wish they'd admit the dark part of whatever it is they're doing. You don't see Imperials or Eldar hide it. The details are unknown, of course, but all Imperials and Eldar at least know some part of the dirty little secrets of their factions. Tau don't. They automatically assume they're the 'good guys'. Except for Farsight, of course. He's the only Tau I really respect. And what do you mean by: partially b.c it wouldn't make sense
Well you mentioned something about how the current tau allies do not have a seat of power for the Empire. It just wouldn't make sense for them to. Like the Romans didn't make the nations they conquered have equal power, but they allowed them to be citizens just like the Tau. An I wouldn't say the Tau try to hide their "darkness," simply b/c we don't have enough info on them for that. The reason they are spotty and secretive to me is b/c they are a new race from a long while back. Once GW offically updates them, with the new codex, I bet what darkness their Empire holds will be more clear. Also the mirkyness that is the Tau seems to make them a lot more open to interpretation, like the missing primarchs/ legions. I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth
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Post by: Tadashi
darkcloud92 wrote:Tadashi wrote:darkcloud92 wrote:
its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.
I know what they do is best for their society, I just wish they'd admit the dark part of whatever it is they're doing. You don't see Imperials or Eldar hide it. The details are unknown, of course, but all Imperials and Eldar at least know some part of the dirty little secrets of their factions. Tau don't. They automatically assume they're the 'good guys'. Except for Farsight, of course. He's the only Tau I really respect. And what do you mean by: partially b.c it wouldn't make sense
Well you mentioned something about how the current tau allies do not have a seat of power for the Empire. It just wouldn't make sense for them to. Like the Romans didn't make the nations they conquered have equal power, but they allowed them to be citizens just like the Tau. An I wouldn't say the Tau try to hide their "darkness," simply b/c we don't have enough info on them for that. The reason they are spotty and secretive to me is b/c they are a new race from a long while back. Once GW offically updates them, with the new codex, I bet what darkness their Empire holds will be more clear. Also the mirkyness that is the Tau seems to make them a lot more open to interpretation, like the missing primarchs/ legions. I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth
I can accept that. Knowing Ward though, when 6th Edition comes out, torches will be burning across Dakka, not to mention other boards. I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth
Well, this is certainly something new. This is the first time I've had a discussion with a reasonable Tau fan whose responses don't boil down to 'railguns own everything' and 'Tau will rule the galaxy'.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
nomotog wrote:No we do know tau fluff. That's why your comparison seems like such a poor fit. It's like you decided that they(Tau BNW) are related and then used that information to fill in the information gaps about the tau. That's why you thought that had propaganda. It's not unreasonable to think that they whould, but nothing in tau fluff mentions it. You assumed it was there because it fit your theory.
Not all propaganda has to be blatantly obvious, ominous posters on a wall somewhere. The whole idea of The Greater Good is propaganda, and it is ubiquitous and pervasive in Tau culture. I think your disconnect is that you don't fully understand the concept of propaganda and how it works. Propaganda is simply ideas presented in a format intended to influence a larger community or group towards a desired way of thinking.
As far as the rest of it, the Tau codex actually uses the words "genetic engineering"(p 8) and "selective breeding" (p 9) to describe how they forbid the intermixing of the castes in order to preserve the carefully chosen genetic traits of the different castes. It's not exactly test tube babies like BNW, and more like how we've bred dogs, or livestock, but the same core idea. So the caste concept is identical in that it involves carefully bred populations specifically designed to excel at their given task. The fluff bit on p 20 says that synthetic proteins and amino acids present suggests that the focused breeding programs of the Tau is what created the caste sub species.
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Post by: darkcloud92
Tadashi wrote:darkcloud92 wrote:Tadashi wrote:darkcloud92 wrote:
its not supposed to be all equal, that's not what utilitarianism is about. That's ok a lot of people make that error though. They are about the GREATEST GOOD, that's what the greater good is. People arn't supposed to be even for that, or at least don't have to be. It is just about what leads to the best for the society. An no allies, for the time being, are not part of the ruling class for the tau. partially b.c it wouldn't make sense, and b/c they don't believe it leads to the best.
I know what they do is best for their society, I just wish they'd admit the dark part of whatever it is they're doing. You don't see Imperials or Eldar hide it. The details are unknown, of course, but all Imperials and Eldar at least know some part of the dirty little secrets of their factions. Tau don't. They automatically assume they're the 'good guys'. Except for Farsight, of course. He's the only Tau I really respect. And what do you mean by: partially b.c it wouldn't make sense
Well you mentioned something about how the current tau allies do not have a seat of power for the Empire. It just wouldn't make sense for them to. Like the Romans didn't make the nations they conquered have equal power, but they allowed them to be citizens just like the Tau. An I wouldn't say the Tau try to hide their "darkness," simply b/c we don't have enough info on them for that. The reason they are spotty and secretive to me is b/c they are a new race from a long while back. Once GW offically updates them, with the new codex, I bet what darkness their Empire holds will be more clear. Also the mirkyness that is the Tau seems to make them a lot more open to interpretation, like the missing primarchs/ legions. I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth
I can accept that. Knowing Ward though, when 6th Edition comes out, torches will be burning across Dakka, not to mention other boards.
I openly accept all interpretations of them, I just do not enjoy when people label their interpretation for the truth
Well, this is certainly something new. This is the first time I've had a discussion with a reasonable Tau fan whose responses don't boil down to 'railguns own everything' and 'Tau will rule the galaxy'.
but railguns and the tau do rule the galaxy. You've just been mind controlled by the ethreals into believing they don't and that they suck- Keanu Reeves
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Post by: Tadashi
darkcloud92 wrote:
but railguns and the tau do rule the galaxy. You've just been mind controlled by the ethreals into believing they don't and that they suck- Keanu Reeves
Not if they're up against 1000 Astartes, 10,000,000 Guardsmen, 1000 Starships, and 1 whole Titan Legion, they won't.
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
If that is all they up facing, they might be ok. But to bad for them, it is far, far, far from all they would face.
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Post by: Tadashi
Hunterindarkness wrote:If that is all they up facing, they might be ok. But to bad for them, it is far, far, far from all they would face.
Oh? How many troops would you estimate would be involved in a Crusade against them?
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Post by: nomotog
You know we don't have to do this. I guess if you want to, you can. Just know you don't have to.
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Post by: Tadashi
nomotog wrote:You know we don't have to do this. I guess if you want to, you can. Just know you don't have to.
Huh?
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Post by: Hunterindarkness
Tadashi wrote:Hunterindarkness wrote:If that is all they up facing, they might be ok. But to bad for them, it is far, far, far from all they would face.
Oh? How many troops would you estimate would be involved in a Crusade against them?
Total number I am not sure, but the Tau could prob match those troop and ship numbers. Of corse they would come out the worse of it even if they won, the IoM can throw away numbers of that size and not really notice, the Tau can not.Honestly however, the days of a crusade aginest a xeno as well established and numerous as the Tau are pretty much over. If they had no other threat they would be able to bring enough forces to bear to utterly crush them. But the IoM really can't pull away that much to bother with it really. Killing off the Tau is just too...bothersome. They simply kick them in the teeth now and then and spend forces on bigger threats mostly
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Post by: Tadashi
Hunterindarkness wrote:Tadashi wrote:Hunterindarkness wrote:If that is all they up facing, they might be ok. But to bad for them, it is far, far, far from all they would face.
Oh? How many troops would you estimate would be involved in a Crusade against them?
Total number I am not sure, but the Tau could prob match those troop and ship numbers. Of corse they would come out the worse of it even if they won, the IoM can throw away numbers of that size and not really notice, the Tau can not.Honestly however, the days of a crusade aginest a xeno as well established and numerous as the Tau are pretty much over. If they had no other threat they would be able to bring enough forces to bear to utterly crush them. But the IoM really can't pull away that much to bother with it really. Killing off the Tau is just too...bothersome. They simply kick them in the teeth now and then and spend forces on bigger threats mostly
True enough, unfortunately. The Imperium's primary focus is against the Tyranids, and dealing with the aftermath of the 13th Black Crusade and the Third War for Armageddon. The Tau and the Imperium generally prefer to maintain the status quo, although the former continues to attempt to subvert the border worlds - although they can't be too keen on that now, seeing as local Astartes units (thanks to the Ultramarines) have an eye (or two, if they can spare them) on the area following the Zeist Campaign. And it's not it's all smooth sailing for the Tau either - splinter fleets keep harassing their septs, while the War of Dakka is slowly building into an Armageddon-level crisis (at least for them).
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Post by: Brother Coa
darkcloud92 wrote:
but railguns and the tau do rule the galaxy. You've just been mind controlled by the ethreals into believing they don't and that they suck- Keanu Reeves
Tau Troll is a Tau Troll...
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Post by: Ledabot
Hasn't this gone way of topic. doe's A brave new world being linked to the tau even count as a conspiracy theory? It makes me want to read it.
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Post by: Kroothawk
This thread is another good example on how Tau haters argue:
1.) There are two kinds of people: Evil people and people so evil that they don't even admit they are evil.
2.) Best sign for being super evil is stopping a bloody civil war and bringing peace. Highly suspicious! No man with a free mind would stop massacring his neighbors! So it must be mind control!
3.) Everybody having a different opinion is just a stubborn Tau fanboy not susceptible to reason.
According to this theory, at the end of WW2, Germany and Japan were invaded by evil forces, put into reeducation camps and mind controlled by American pheromones, so they stopped raging the world with war. Only possible explanation
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Post by: Tadashi
Kroothawk wrote:
1.) There are two kinds of people: Evil people and people so evil that they don't even admit they are evil.
At least Eldar and Imperials are honest - they do nasty things because they need to. They don't try to hide the fact - 'Innocents die so humanity can live.' Tau lie and cover up everything with a facade of progress - small wonder a disillusioned Farsight turned his back on the Empire.
2.) Best sign for being super evil is stopping a bloody civil war and bringing peace. Highly suspicious! No man with a free mind would stop massacring his neighbors! So it must be mind control!
A complete 180-degree turn in personality? Not buying it.
3.) Everybody having a different opinion is just a stubborn Tau fanboy not susceptible to reason.
That 'cuz you're not listening. You insist on ignoring the fact that Tau are just as bad as everyone else.
According to this theory, at the end of WW2, Germany and Japan were invaded by evil forces, put into reeducation camps and mind controlled by American pheromones, so they stopped raging the world with war. Only possible explanation
My Japanese grandmother and my dad (also Japanese, duh) believe Western consumerism has made modern Japanese soft. So yes, they've been ruined by American pheromones. 
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Post by: -Loki-
Kroothawk wrote:2.) Best sign for being super evil is stopping a bloody civil war and bringing peace. Highly suspicious! No man with a free mind would stop massacring his neighbors! So it must be mind control!
This glosses over the fact that it was the entire race that did a 180 and not only stopped massacring their neighbors, but also simply started working towards 'the greater good'. No, that's not going to happen because a few guys in robes with more prominent vaginas on their forehead show up preaching peace and love.
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Post by: htj
Ledabot wrote:Hasn't this gone way of topic. doe's A brave new world being linked to the tau even count as a conspiracy theory? It makes me want to read it.
You should. It's an excellent, thoughful, and moving book.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Kroothawk wrote:
According to this theory, at the end of WW2, Germany and Japan were invaded by evil forces, put into reeducation camps and mind controlled by Allied pheromones, so they stopped raging the world with war. Only possible explanation
Don't reveal everything!
Maybe one day, you will find out to tag people as "hater" isn't strenghtening your argument. If you had one that is.
The continent called europe provides so many civil wars, and none was ended because some formerly unknown persons who have been altered by unknown alien powers stepped in and pacified everyone. At least the flag your sporting here would mean this isn't news for you.
So the conspiracy theory you wanted to tell us about is: everything in 40k is sci-fantasy but Tau are real life?
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Post by: Kain
My personal opinion of the Tau is that they're nice mainly in comparison, take them out and place them in most other scifi settings and they'd be considered rather dark, but next to say a legion of daemon worshipping foaming at the mouth madmen who bathe in the blood of freshly slaughtered babies for kicks, you can see why they'd be counted as one of the good guys. The ethereals are rather suspicious but they're not any worse than the Emperor who literally beat the majority of humanity into serving him or the Eldar who sexed a lovecraftian abomination into existence.
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Post by: Tadashi
Kain wrote:My personal opinion of the Tau is that they're nice mainly in comparison, take them out and place them in most other scifi settings and they'd be considered rather dark, but next to say a legion of daemon worshipping foaming at the mouth madmen who bathe in the blood of freshly slaughtered babies for kicks, you can see why they'd be counted as one of the good guys. The ethereals are rather suspicious but they're not any worse than the Emperor who literally beat the majority of humanity into serving him or the Eldar who sexed a lovecraftian abomination into existence.
At least the old man and the space elves are honest about what they have to do. Space popes are all rainbows and butterflies.
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Post by: Kain
Tadashi wrote:Kain wrote:My personal opinion of the Tau is that they're nice mainly in comparison, take them out and place them in most other scifi settings and they'd be considered rather dark, but next to say a legion of daemon worshipping foaming at the mouth madmen who bathe in the blood of freshly slaughtered babies for kicks, you can see why they'd be counted as one of the good guys. The ethereals are rather suspicious but they're not any worse than the Emperor who literally beat the majority of humanity into serving him or the Eldar who sexed a lovecraftian abomination into existence.
At least the old man and the space elves are honest about what they have to do. Space popes are all rainbows and butterflies.
True, the Tau do have an awful lot of skeletons in their closet, but again, they're only nice by comparison, and even then it's not by much.
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Post by: Jefffar
Sometimes I envision the WH40K universe like Medieval Europe.
The Eldar are the remains of the Byzantine Empire, once great but slowly fading, doomed to vanish to the tides of history. The Dark Eldar ar the decadent and corrupt inheritors of the capital of the Western half of the old Empire - Rom.
The IOM represent the Holy Roman Empire (which had nothing to do with Rome), disordered and filled with feudal states. It is rife with heresy and insurrection and spends as much time warring with itself as it does dealing with external threats.
The Orks represent all the various barbarian groups that will occasionally sweep through Europe, looting and burning as they go.
Chaos and the Chaos Marines represent the various heresies plus the general preoccupation with the devil that medieval Europe had.
Tyranids represent a massive plague like the Black Death that threatened to engulf the continent.
Necrons . . . well ancient Egypt didn't play a role in Medieval Europe but there was a fairly well established mythos of animated and undead as well as various dark magics and alchemists. So a fusion of Necromancy, Alchemy and Black Magic makes sense.
Then we get to the Tau. In the Tau we have a once primitive people known more for warring among themselves than any real achievement who suddenly discovered a new religion and developed into a highly ordered society with advanced sciences. They then immediately sought to expand their religion into their neighbors and convert them to their faith.
Historically this parallels the rise of Islam. Now as the history played out the Muslims managed to conquer large portions of Europe and destroy what was left of the Byzantine Empire over a course of about 8 centuries before ultimately being forced back out of Europe.
Then again, the Greek letter Tau was used by early Christians to identify themselves, so perhaps the creators of the Tau are trying to send a subtle message there?
or perhaps I'm reading too much into things, then again, this is a conspiracy thread.
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Post by: Tadashi
Kain wrote:Tadashi wrote:Kain wrote:My personal opinion of the Tau is that they're nice mainly in comparison, take them out and place them in most other scifi settings and they'd be considered rather dark, but next to say a legion of daemon worshipping foaming at the mouth madmen who bathe in the blood of freshly slaughtered babies for kicks, you can see why they'd be counted as one of the good guys. The ethereals are rather suspicious but they're not any worse than the Emperor who literally beat the majority of humanity into serving him or the Eldar who sexed a lovecraftian abomination into existence.
At least the old man and the space elves are honest about what they have to do. Space popes are all rainbows and butterflies.
True, the Tau do have an awful lot of skeletons in their closet, but again, they're only nice by comparison, and even then it's not by much.
No, that they are not. Small wonder more people respect Farsight than they do space popes.
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Post by: Kain
Tadashi wrote:Kain wrote:Tadashi wrote:Kain wrote:My personal opinion of the Tau is that they're nice mainly in comparison, take them out and place them in most other scifi settings and they'd be considered rather dark, but next to say a legion of daemon worshipping foaming at the mouth madmen who bathe in the blood of freshly slaughtered babies for kicks, you can see why they'd be counted as one of the good guys. The ethereals are rather suspicious but they're not any worse than the Emperor who literally beat the majority of humanity into serving him or the Eldar who sexed a lovecraftian abomination into existence.
At least the old man and the space elves are honest about what they have to do. Space popes are all rainbows and butterflies.
True, the Tau do have an awful lot of skeletons in their closet, but again, they're only nice by comparison, and even then it's not by much.
No, that they are not. Small wonder more people respect Farsight than they do space popes.
Well for one thing, rather than magic pheromones, Farsight gets followers through actual charisma and hard work. That's more respectable than headvagina magic.
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Post by: darkcloud92
Gosh Farsight does seem rather cool! I just wish we got more lore on him :/ One conspiracy/unknown theory is why farsight decided to break away. As far as I know nothing as been updated about him or the farsight enclave since the last codex. One theory was the powers of chaos, but if the information on the new edition is right than the Tau can't be corrupted by chaos.
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Post by: nomotog
Kain wrote:Tadashi wrote:Kain wrote:Tadashi wrote:Kain wrote:My personal opinion of the Tau is that they're nice mainly in comparison, take them out and place them in most other scifi settings and they'd be considered rather dark, but next to say a legion of daemon worshipping foaming at the mouth madmen who bathe in the blood of freshly slaughtered babies for kicks, you can see why they'd be counted as one of the good guys. The ethereals are rather suspicious but they're not any worse than the Emperor who literally beat the majority of humanity into serving him or the Eldar who sexed a lovecraftian abomination into existence.
At least the old man and the space elves are honest about what they have to do. Space popes are all rainbows and butterflies.
True, the Tau do have an awful lot of skeletons in their closet, but again, they're only nice by comparison, and even then it's not by much.
No, that they are not. Small wonder more people respect Farsight than they do space popes.
Well for one thing, rather than magic pheromones, Farsight gets followers through actual charisma and hard work. That's more respectable than headvagina magic.
What if farsight has pheromones?
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Post by: 1hadhq
darkcloud92 wrote:Gosh Farsight does seem rather cool! I just wish we got more lore on him :/ One conspiracy/unknown theory is why farsight decided to break away. As far as I know nothing as been updated about him or the farsight enclave since the last codex. One theory was the powers of chaos, but if the information on the new edition is right than the Tau can't be corrupted by chaos.
Chaos is the most unlikely theory why Farsight left.
On the positive side, GW left it at unknown attackers and Farsight just having his own colony.
Maybe he got another entry in one of the expansions. But inconsistent as the Tau timeline is, the last record of him may be the "swap of heroes" the space-pope enacted to secure the unity of the Empire...
nomotog wrote:
What if farsight has pheromones?
If guns count as pheromones...
Basically Fire caste could easily take over if etherals aren't around. Who argues with the hotheaded and armed ones?
( the best guess on the intend behind Farsight I can make is, he is there to have a splinter group outside the grasp of the etherals to show us Tau without the daily dose of greater-good-cool-aid ). His words of the spacefaring races never teaming up as the etherals seem to tell the Tau are rarely used as these don't fit with the theme of utopia that some just love too much.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Tadashi wrote:Tau lie and cover up everything with a facade of progress - small wonder a disillusioned Farsight turned his back on the Empire.
Farsight was disillusioned that he couldn't massacre at will in the Tau Empire
Tadashi wrote:My Japanese grandmother and my dad (also Japanese, duh) believe Western consumerism has made modern Japanese soft. So yes, they've been ruined by American pheromones.
That makes it more astonishing that you don't get all the Japanese culture inspired facts about tau society, esp. that society>individual thing which is a basic difference between Western and Eastern thinking.
1hadhq wrote:The continent called europe provides so many civil wars, and none was ended because some formerly unknown persons who have been altered by unknown alien powers stepped in and pacified everyone. At least the flag your sporting here would mean this isn't news for you.
Actually, Western Europe, after several hundred years of war, suddenly with the end of WW2 entered a period of peace lasting until today. So obviously American pheromones that caused this 180 degree turn!
1hadhq wrote:So the conspiracy theory you wanted to tell us about is: everything in 40k is sci-fantasy but Tau are real life?
Just that behaving more or less as the EU in military matters is nothing totally impossible in the future of 40k.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Kroothawk wrote:
1hadhq wrote:The continent called europe provides so many civil wars, and none was ended because some formerly unknown persons who have been altered by unknown alien powers stepped in and pacified everyone. At least the flag your sporting here would mean this isn't news for you.
Actually, Western Europe, after several hundred years of war, suddenly with the end of WW2 entered a period of peace lasting until today. So obviously American pheromones that caused this 180 degree turn!
1hadhq wrote:So the conspiracy theory you wanted to tell us about is: everything in 40k is sci-fantasy but Tau are real life?
Just that behaving more or less as the EU in military matters is nothing totally impossible in the future of 40k.
So if I get that right, using WMD to ensure an uneasy peace is the way to go. 
Maybe you forgot the Russians? I mean the counterpart that made the whole "don't press that button" so important for survival.
This threat of utter destruction isn't the 180 you are looking for. Because the moment a confrontation became risky, others had to have the wars instead of the major powers. Won't work in the 40k verse where some live for destruction. A single ork would surely have a lot of fun with this type of pacification.....oi wats dat? *lauch sequence activated* * 3...2...1 * 
( disclaimer: sure some like their existance very much, be it Humans , Eldar, Tau and maybe even the Necrons. But Chaos? Orks? )
Secondly, the EU is sadly complete fail in military matters. Behaving like it would kill most civilizations in 40k at the first encounter of a hostile faction. OtoH the EU makes for a nice Administratum predecessor....
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Kroothawk wrote:Actually, Western Europe, after several hundred years of war, suddenly with the end of WW2 entered a period of peace lasting until today. So obviously American pheromones that caused this 180 degree turn!
Well that, the horror of modern warfare, oh, and the ever-looming thread of global annihilation caused by widespread nuclear weaponry.
Let's not pretend this was some fundamental change in human nature that caused Europeans to suddenly become good-hearted, peaceful individuals. It's just simple pragmatism, lol. For several hundred years, nobody had the ability to just erase entire nations, and possibly the whole world. Now, they do. And most people like the whole world. It's where they keep their stuff.
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Post by: Jefffar
Europe avoided major wars from the end of the age of Napoleon (1814) until the rise of Germany (1860s) and even then avoided total war until WWI.
This period of peace did not require alien (or American) intervention but was instead achieved by the Europeans themselves deciding that further bloody wars were of no benefit to them.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Or, more realistically, a period of resting and rearming until one or both sides became capable of waging war again and had forgotten the previous one. It wasn't like these wars occurred in a vacuum. They were preceded by long periods of preparing for the next war.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Nah, they just realized its much easier to just buy our stuff and persue silly ideological agendas the beat the snot out of each other. They still loath each other, and even more so now that the EU is getting buried in its own debt. meanwhile the Brits are laughing from a safe distance.
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Post by: DoctorZombie
Grey Templar wrote:DoctorZombie wrote:Anyone ever heard the Horus on the Golden Throne one?
That has nothing to do with the Tau, the Tau had barely stood upright when the HH was in full swing.
O, and thats HERESY!!!
Darn Grey Knights, you steal the spotlight from us smurfs!
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Don't worry, I'm sure Ward will touch you soon enough
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Post by: 1hadhq
Grey Templar wrote:Nah, they just realized its much easier to just buy our stuff and persue silly ideological agendas the beat the snot out of each other. They still loath each other, and even more so now that the EU is getting buried in its own debt. meanwhile the Brits are laughing from a safe distance.
Your stuff?
Thought China already owns america
Plus, we told the brits there is a "safe" distance.....
...but.....there is none..
Looking forward to beat the snot out of someone,again. Preferrably small, like luxemburg.
Because we are totally safe, since we get 'smart defence'. 
Back to the subject:
Tau are conspirators. Their attempt to ruin the world with a financial crisis has to be stopped. Join the Imperial Guard NOW!
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Post by: Tadashi
Kroothawk wrote:Tadashi wrote:Tau lie and cover up everything with a facade of progress - small wonder a disillusioned Farsight turned his back on the Empire.
Farsight was disillusioned that he couldn't massacre at will in the Tau Empire
More because why should the Tau try and help other species when those other species are so xenophobic for good reason.
Tadashi wrote:My Japanese grandmother and my dad (also Japanese, duh) believe Western consumerism has made modern Japanese soft. So yes, they've been ruined by American pheromones.
That makes it more astonishing that you don't get all the Japanese culture inspired facts about tau society, esp. that society>individual thing which is a basic difference between Western and Eastern thinking.
That's not the point. The point is too-much western influences and consumerism has rotted away at Japanese (and by extension, other people's) cultures and nationalities. Not everyone wants to be Americanized you know. The Chinese would die before that would happen, and has anyone noticed the slow but steady rise in popularity of neo-conservatism in Japanese politics?
1hadhq wrote:The continent called europe provides so many civil wars, and none was ended because some formerly unknown persons who have been altered by unknown alien powers stepped in and pacified everyone. At least the flag your sporting here would mean this isn't news for you.
Actually, Western Europe, after several hundred years of war, suddenly with the end of WW2 entered a period of peace lasting until today. So obviously American pheromones that caused this 180 degree turn!
Sophistry. What prevented war in Europe after WWII was simply the need to keep a 'peaceful' Europe as a buffer between the two superpowers, who then proceeded to engage in a campaign of bloody proxy wars across the world. The alternative: nuclear war, nuclear winter, death of at least half of the human population, Europe, most of North Armerica and Northern Eurasia reduced to a radioactive wasteland.
1hadhq wrote:So the conspiracy theory you wanted to tell us about is: everything in 40k is sci-fantasy but Tau are real life?
Just that behaving more or less as the EU in military matters is nothing totally impossible in the future of 40k.
The EU, like the UN, is a big, expensive joke. Committees can never do anything right. What the world needs is unification - leadership, not a bunch of soft diplomats arguing over protocol while people, both soldiers and civilians, die waiting for a 'peaceful' solution. Which, more often than not, ends up a partial disaster. Besides, I'd like to see the EU/UN try and face Chaos or the Tyranids. Half of them would be shouting 'Blood for the Blood God!' within an hour.
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Post by: nomotog
Tadashi wrote:Kroothawk wrote:Tadashi wrote:Tau lie and cover up everything with a facade of progress - small wonder a disillusioned Farsight turned his back on the Empire.
Farsight was disillusioned that he couldn't massacre at will in the Tau Empire
More because why should the Tau try and help other species when those other species are so xenophobic for good reason.
That's rather dumb of farsight. Nearly 50% of the tau codex is stuff that comes directly form alliances. Heck the tau would have destroyed themselves a long time ago if it was for the intervention of an alien race.
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Post by: Tadashi
nomotog wrote:Tadashi wrote:Kroothawk wrote:Tadashi wrote:Tau lie and cover up everything with a facade of progress - small wonder a disillusioned Farsight turned his back on the Empire.
Farsight was disillusioned that he couldn't massacre at will in the Tau Empire
More because why should the Tau try and help other species when those other species are so xenophobic for good reason.
That's rather dumb of farsight. Nearly 50% of the tau codex is stuff that comes directly form alliances. Heck the tau would have destroyed themselves a long time ago if it was for the intervention of an alien race.
No one intervened. Only some space popes used pheromones to create 180-degree personality shift for the entire species. And Farsight's quite fine with Kroot and Vespid - the ones he doesn't trust are ancient species like Humans and Eldar (among others) who have wandered the stars for millennia before the Tau saw the light of civilization.
47877
Post by: Jefffar
Farsight isn't cool with Kroot or Vespid either, you can't take them in his army.
51396
Post by: Tadashi
Jefffar wrote:Farsight isn't cool with Kroot or Vespid either, you can't take them in his army.
Strange. That doesn't match the description of the War of Dakka. Just a moment, will check Codex. EDIT: Oh, I see. Right, the War of Dakka started with Ironteef attacking a Kroot fleet, but since then, the conflict has spread over multiple worlds, including the mainstream Tau Empire and the Farsight Enclaves. I just assumed Farsight was fine with the Kroot and Vespid since the Tau came to the aid of the Kroot. In that case, Farsight prefers a Tau-first policy not unlike the Human, Eldar, and everyone else. My respect for the man has risen even more.
42494
Post by: nomotog
He is more bigoted then you thought and that makes you like him more?
51396
Post by: Tadashi
nomotog wrote:He is more bigoted then you thought and that makes you like him more?
Simply because he understands the simple truth that all star-faring civilizations (post-Fall of the Eldar, of course) are incapable of co-existing with each other. ***An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.***
42382
Post by: Unit1126PLL
Tadashi wrote:nomotog wrote:He is more bigoted then you thought and that makes you like him more?
Simply because he understands the simple truth that all star-faring civilizations (post-Fall of the Eldar, of course) are incapable of co-existing with each other.
***An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.***
Indeed, it is apparent that Farsight has the foresight to see that coexistence with xenos is futile.
And to rephrase:
Keep your mind open long enough and someone will come along and stuff some crap into it.
51396
Post by: Tadashi
Unit1126PLL wrote:Tadashi wrote:nomotog wrote:He is more bigoted then you thought and that makes you like him more?
Simply because he understands the simple truth that all star-faring civilizations (post-Fall of the Eldar, of course) are incapable of co-existing with each other.
***An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.***
Indeed, it is apparent that Farsight has the foresight to see that coexistence with xenos is futile.
And to rephrase:
Keep your mind open long enough and someone will come along and stuff some crap into it.
I can think of four: Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh. Oh, did I mention space popes? Oh wait, Farsight already cleaned his mind of those guys. No worries then.
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Post by: Tun_Tau
The biggest Tau Conspiracy
The greater good is the most threatening concept in the universe.
The ethereals are just what they say they are enlightened, visionary , benevolent and wise. It drives space marine and their fan boys crazy because they know a faction that talks sense is going to expose that during their fight against chaos the have all became what they fight, a force for chaos and that revelation will be the end to the IoM. Humanity will throw off the stalinesque yoke of oppression and take their place as willing servants of the greater good and the universe will enter into a new era lead by the Tau which will be marked by cooperation, prosperity and a considerably less grim dark universe.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
56928
Post by: Yori
Tun_Tau wrote:The biggest Tau Conspiracy
The greater good is the most threatening concept in the universe.
The ethereals are just what they say they are enlightened, visionary , benevolent and wise. It drives space marine and their fan boys crazy because they know a faction that talks sense is going to expose that during their fight against chaos the have all became what they fight, a force for chaos and that revelation will be the end to the IoM. Humanity will throw off the stalinesque yoke of oppression and take their place as willing servants of the greater good and the universe will enter into a new era lead by the Tau which will be marked by cooperation, prosperity and a considerably less grim dark universe.
--- My reaction if this was true---
*Trows BL novels, THQ games and GW codices in trash can*
"Well they ruined that too, time to find a new franchise to satisfy my daily need for grimdark."
*Sets trash can on fire*
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
You see, this is the biggest problem with single faction players. They get too tied up in racial identification.
Players like myself who play three or more armies (I've had Chaos too at one point before I gave/sold the models to a friend) can simply look at a faction's fluff and enjoy it for what it is, without having to be emotionally invested in it being one way or another. the only reason I even list Space Marines first in order is because I've been working on it recently as a conversion challenge.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Yori wrote:--- My reaction if this was true---
*Trows BL novels, THQ games and GW codices in trash can*
"Well they ruined that too, time to find a new franchise to satisfy my daily need for grimdark."
*Sets trash can on fire*
Or you can sell them on ebay, as they are obviously unread and therefore in pristine condition
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.
31733
Post by: Brother Coa
Kroothawk wrote:
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.
Original Necrons notes: Silent and numerous legions of undead robots bend to destroying all life in service of their C'Tan gods.
Original Grey Knights notes: Elite military force of Inquisition, hate anything daemonic and tend to work and cooperate with the other forces of the Imperium. Military arm of Ordo Malleus.
See how original notes have no meaning whatsoever when fluff changes over the years? I am expecting Tau to be more oppressing toward their allies and xenophobic toward everyone in their next release.
51396
Post by: Tadashi
Tun_Tau wrote:The biggest Tau Conspiracy
The greater good is the most threatening concept in the universe.
The ethereals are just what they say they are enlightened, visionary , benevolent and wise. It drives space marine and their fan boys crazy because they know a faction that talks sense is going to expose that during their fight against chaos the have all became what they fight, a force for chaos and that revelation will be the end to the IoM. Humanity will throw off the stalinesque yoke of oppression and take their place as willing servants of the greater good and the universe will enter into a new era lead by the Tau which will be marked by cooperation, prosperity and a considerably less grim dark universe.
BORING.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Brother Coa wrote:Kroothawk wrote:
Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.
Original Necrons notes: Silent and numerous legions of undead robots bend to destroying all life in service of their C'Tan gods.
Original Grey Knights notes: Elite military force of Inquisition, hate anything daemonic and tend to work and cooperate with the other forces of the Imperium. Military arm of Ordo Malleus.
See how original notes have no meaning whatsoever when fluff changes over the years? I am expecting Tau to be more oppressing toward their allies and xenophobic toward everyone in their next release.
However, until such time as the codex gets a complete rewrite and turns Fire Warriors into rabid flesh eating ghouls (Not zombies, zombies CANT run) can we not accept the codex at face value, in conjunction with the writers intent that they are altruistic, idealistic and naive. As opposed to they're plotting to take over everything and kill us all, we just don't know the details.
Perhaps we don't know the details because there arn't any?
No offence but there is some major paranoia going on here.
Cheers
Andrew
31733
Post by: Brother Coa
AndrewC wrote:
However, until such time as the codex gets a complete rewrite and turns Fire Warriors into rabid flesh eating ghouls (Not zombies, zombies CANT run) can we not accept the codex at face value, in conjunction with the writers intent that they are altruistic, idealistic and naive. As opposed to they're plotting to take over everything and kill us all, we just don't know the details.
Perhaps we don't know the details because there arn't any?
No offence but there is some major paranoia going on here.
Cheers
Andrew
It's not paranoia but rumors, rumors about mind-control, race sterilization etc...
34612
Post by: Ledabot
Tun_Tau wrote:The biggest Tau Conspiracy
The greater good is the most threatening concept in the universe.
The ethereals are just what they say they are enlightened, visionary , benevolent and wise. It drives space marine and their fan boys crazy because they know a faction that talks sense is going to expose that during their fight against chaos the have all became what they fight, a force for chaos and that revelation will be the end to the IoM. Humanity will throw off the stalinesque yoke of oppression and take their place as willing servants of the greater good and the universe will enter into a new era lead by the Tau which will be marked by cooperation, prosperity and a considerably less grim dark universe.
I loled. A bit of a trolly comment there. You might be taking this a bit to seriously. You sound like an internet popup. Well, to be fair, its no more crazy than anything that brother coa, tadashi or grey templar pulls up daily. It only took 4 pages for this to become a tau hate thread. I think thats a new record. Well done guys!
53938
Post by: Tun_Tau
Just  s for the flame god 
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
AndrewC wrote:However, until such time as the codex gets a complete rewrite and turns Fire Warriors into rabid flesh eating ghouls (Not zombies, zombies CANT run) can we not accept the codex at face value, in conjunction with the writers intent that they are altruistic, idealistic and naive.
It isn't completely rewritten to the drastic exagerration you suggest, however the changes have been made.
The problem here is an unwillingness to accept the change, not a lack of change. The design notes from over ten years ago aren't relevant anymore, and that fleeting vision of the Tau has joined the other sublte changes and retcons in irrelevance and memory. Orks used to be brightly colored bikers who roamed around the galaxy on drifting spaceships. Space Marines used to be surgically enhanced tribal savages, hardened criminals and other unsavory types turned into shock troops. The Tau have merely evolved from the simplistic concept they started as, and have become something far more rich, deep, and complex.
41484
Post by: darkcloud92
Veteran Sergeant wrote:AndrewC wrote:However, until such time as the codex gets a complete rewrite and turns Fire Warriors into rabid flesh eating ghouls (Not zombies, zombies CANT run) can we not accept the codex at face value, in conjunction with the writers intent that they are altruistic, idealistic and naive.
It isn't completely rewritten to the drastic exagerration you suggest, however the changes have been made.
The problem here is an unwillingness to accept the change, not a lack of change. The design notes from over ten years ago aren't relevant anymore, and that fleeting vision of the Tau has joined the other sublte changes and retcons in irrelevance and memory. Orks used to be brightly colored bikers who roamed around the galaxy on drifting spaceships. Space Marines used to be surgically enhanced tribal savages, hardened criminals and other unsavory types turned into shock troops. The Tau have merely evolved from the simplistic concept they started as, and have become something far more rich, deep, and complex.
wait what changes? the only ones I have heard of for the new codex is the thing about the tau being the secret to defeating chaos. They were discovered by the emperor years ago, before the horus heresy, and now they are fully evolved and the ultramarines are supposed to protect them. That's the only rumor I have heard about updating the tau
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It isn't completely rewritten to the drastic exagerration you suggest, however the changes have been made.
The problem here is an unwillingness to accept the change, not a lack of change. The design notes from over ten years ago aren't relevant anymore, and that fleeting vision of the Tau has joined the other sublte changes and retcons in irrelevance and memory. Orks used to be brightly colored bikers who roamed around the galaxy on drifting spaceships. Space Marines used to be surgically enhanced tribal savages, hardened criminals and other unsavory types turned into shock troops. The Tau have merely evolved from the simplistic concept they started as, and have become something far more rich, deep, and complex.
No it's not been rewritten to that extent, but that seems to be the sort of rewrite that some posters want.
There isn't an unwillingness to accept change, as you point out the change is there. That first inch has been given by GW to those fans who don't like the idea of a 'good' faction. But rather than accept that inch they are running the proverbial mile with it.
The new Tau Codex is there, I don't think anyone doubts that, but until we see what is contained in it, taking unsubstantiated rumours and promoting it as fact doesn't help the issue. I just hope that they havn't taken the Tau and turned them into those ghouls I mentioned earlier.
Look at some of the other threads and the outcry over the idea that SMs must protect the Tau? Some of the most voluble outcry against that change are SM players, who are just a voluble in demanding such a fundemental change to Tau.
Lets wait and see what 6th Ed and the new codex bring us before getting up in arms?
Cheers
Andrew
42494
Post by: nomotog
If they give you an inch, take a mile. If they give you a mile, take Poland.
47877
Post by: Jefffar
If you tak Poland might as well take the rest of Europe, but I fail to see what references to the appeasement of Hitler do here other than paint other posters in a bad light.
I like the current codex's approach of the Tau seeming good but there being enough hints and rumours that it is very possible they are far from it. If a faction is unquestionably good their concept becomes too shallow to keep them interesting. The same happens to a faction that is undeniably evil.
Look at the necrons, they were about as one dimensionally evil in 3rd as the Tau were one dimensionally good. Now both they and the Tau are far more nuanced and interesting. Yes the necrons are still evil, but there is personality, tragedy and even honor giving them more life as a faction.
The Tau need this too. They must appear as good as the necrons appear evil, yet they must also have enough depth and shadow to be interesting. They need to be a good faction for a universe that only has good men, not good factions.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Tadashi wrote:BORING.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The design notes from over ten years ago aren't relevant anymore (...)
The Tau have merely evolved from the simplistic concept they started as, and have become something far more rich, deep, and complex.
If GW really followed the will of all Tau haters and made Tau just another rabid massacre happy race of psychopaths ("Arrrrgh, must kill everything in sight!"), would that be less boring and make the race deeper and more interesting? I guess not.
But I agree that facts and the explicitely stated intention of GW designers are of little importance to Tau haters.
51464
Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Do you have to hate Tau to accept that the implication of The Greater Bad lurking behind the The Greater Good, or do you have to be a die hard Tau fanboy to deny it exists?
Relying on hyperbole doesn't really help your case. I certainly haven't said that the ethereals being sneaky, oppressive dickbags with an aggressive expansionist philosophy makes the Tau race full of mindless killers. Certainly the Tau seem ready and willing to take nonviolent measures to secure their objectives. And certainly the average Tau honestly believes in The Greater Good. They just don't realize it is a lie.
51396
Post by: Tadashi
Kroothawk wrote:Tadashi wrote:BORING.
If GW really followed the will of all Tau haters and made Tau just another rabid massacre happy race of psychopaths ("Arrrrgh, must kill everything in sight!"), would that be less boring and make the race deeper and more interesting? I guess not.
Not really. Just go flat out and reveal the Ethereals use mind control and pheromones - that would satisfy me, showing that the Greater Good is just a cover-up to keep the Ethereals in power. Noblebright is really boring, you know. Most of the more successful games these days - Command and Conquer, Starcraft, Mass Effect - are grimdark.
47877
Post by: Jefffar
Leave it unconfirmed, but with enough evidence that the Tau can be Good, manipulated fools or Evil.
51396
Post by: Tadashi
Jefffar wrote:Leave it unconfirmed, but with enough evidence that the Tau can be Good, manipulated fools or Evil.
Choose, then, between:
A) Leave it uncomfirmed, and the mutual bashing will continue.
B) Make them good, causing even more bashing and Tau-hate.
C) Confirm the ugly truth, and the bashing will die, but the Tau are now known as charlatans (well, only the Ethereals, but that's good enough for me ).
42494
Post by: nomotog
You could just do two empires. One good and one evil. I wonder if that would work.
47877
Post by: Jefffar
Tadashi wrote:Jefffar wrote:Leave it unconfirmed, but with enough evidence that the Tau can be Good, manipulated fools or Evil.
Choose, then, between:
A) Leave it uncomfirmed, and the mutual bashing will continue.
B) Make them good, causing even more bashing and Tau-hate.
C) Confirm the ugly truth, and the bashing will die, but the Tau are now known as charlatans (well, only the Ethereals, but that's good enough for me ).
C) has the added effect of taking away the most notable trait that sets the Tau faction apart from the other factions in the fluff. It is possible with A) for the Tau to be both Noblebright and Grimdark at the same time.
A) also is what gets people to actually talk about the Tau, preventing them from fading into obscurity.
51396
Post by: Tadashi
Jefffar wrote:Tadashi wrote:Jefffar wrote:Leave it unconfirmed, but with enough evidence that the Tau can be Good, manipulated fools or Evil.
Choose, then, between:
A) Leave it uncomfirmed, and the mutual bashing will continue.
B) Make them good, causing even more bashing and Tau-hate.
C) Confirm the ugly truth, and the bashing will die, but the Tau are now known as charlatans (well, only the Ethereals, but that's good enough for me ).
C) has the added effect of taking away the most notable trait that sets the Tau faction apart from the other factions in the fluff. It is possible with A) for the Tau to be both Noblebright and Grimdark at the same time.
A/C it is then.
42494
Post by: nomotog
Why do you want the tau to be evil anyway?
51396
Post by: Tadashi
nomotog wrote:Why do you want the tau to be evil anyway?
1) It doesn't match the setting.
2) The fluff doesn't make sense - an entire civilization turned 180-degrees simply because a space pope told them to work together? And you're not even suspicious. Among races with psychic potential, that reeks of sorcery and mind control. Since they don't have psychic powers, it's definitely not psychic or sorcery in nature - either pheromones or advanced technology or both.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
I can't help feeling Tadashi that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective.
From some of your posts I get the impression that you are a lot younger than me, so you may not have heard of this race, Zhodani (Traveller/MegaTraveller). They were a race that believed in a form of the greater good, everyone had their place and were happy to be there. They used psionics to control minds, a caste system and a racial goal that did not involve genocide or subjugation of races as long as they submitted themselves to the 'rule' of the Zhodani and allied themselves to the goal. All their citizens were cared for, respected and had freedom within their role/society.
They were also considered one of the most authortarian societies in existence and quite evil.
However it was also pointed out that that viewpoint only existed outside their empire and that their citizens were the happiest and most content out of all the empires in the game universe.
So what I'm saying to you is that Tau aren't evil, your perception of the Tau makes them evil.
As for the setting, 40K is whatever GW wants it to be, your opinion (and mine for that matter) does not register on GWs radar. It's their trainset and what they say goes.
180 degrees, I ask this question of you, if someone came to the UN/G8/whatever global gathering and provided proof that there was other life in the universe and it was hostile to all life on earth, do you not think that there would be an end to the rivalries and the nations of the earth work together?
Now I know that that is a hypothesis, because it was never printed/decided/thought of what was said at the meeting to turn Tau society, but such a turn is not impossible without the use of some sort of mind control.
As for the fluff not making sense, I can think of two reasons. One not all info already written has been made available or, two GW applied its rigorous playtesting experience on writing rules to ensuring their background is coherent.
Cheers
Andrew
51396
Post by: Tadashi
AndrewC wrote:
180 degrees, I ask this question of you, if someone came to the UN/G8/whatever global gathering and provided proof that there was other life in the universe and it was hostile to all life on earth, do you not think that there would be an end to the rivalries and the nations of the earth work together?
Mass Effect backstory is basically that. And if your saying that Tau citizens are the happiest in the setting, then why did Farsight turn his back on them? The Commander had had enough of the lies - he didn't care whether or not the Ethereals could make everyone work together, the Tau had lost themselves in the process, just as the Eldar and the Dark Eldar have lost themselves, in the Paths and in decadence respectively. Only the Humans, the Necrons, the Orks, and the Tyranids are true to their nature. There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
I'm not quite sure of your Mass Effect reference as to whether you agree or disagree with me.
Why did Farsight turn his back? I dont know, because GW wrote the script. A few suggestions though;
1. He discovered something as you say which he found abhorrent and struck out at the etherials (I dont think it ever said how they all died).
2. He was borderline insane which was kept in check by the (insert control of choice). When his 'medication' was lost he went rogue.
3. Tau high command abandoned him as a 'lost cause' in the war against the orks, maybe that resentment surfaced again and couldn't be treated.
Pick your poison of choice.
Your last sentence is quite telling;
There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.
Admirable statement, however in Tau society as it is presently protrayed there is no 'I' only an 'us'
Cheers
Andrew
51396
Post by: Tadashi
AndrewC wrote:I'm not quite sure of your Mass Effect reference as to whether you agree or disagree with me.
Just pointing it out.
Why did Farsight turn his back? I dont know, because GW wrote the script. A few suggestions though;
1. He discovered something as you say which he found abhorrent and struck out at the etherials (I dont think it ever said how they all died).
2. He was borderline insane which was kept in check by the (insert control of choice). When his 'medication' was lost he went rogue.
3. Tau high command abandoned him as a 'lost cause' in the war against the orks, maybe that resentment surfaced again and couldn't be treated.
Pick your poison of choice.
All of them.
Your last sentence is quite telling;
There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.
Admirable statement, however in Tau society as it is presently protrayed there is no 'I' only an 'us'
Something Farsight and everyone else disagrees with - us not being the entire galaxy, but only your own species.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Never played Mass Effect so I honestly have no frame of reference. (Just consider me a grumpy old man)
Cheers
Andrew
51396
Post by: Tadashi
AndrewC wrote:Never played Mass Effect so I honestly have no frame of reference. (Just consider me a grumpy old man)
Cheers
Andrew
53938
Post by: Tun_Tau
Tadashi wrote:AndrewC wrote:I'm not quite sure of your Mass Effect reference as to whether you agree or disagree with me.
Just pointing it out.
Why did Farsight turn his back? I dont know, because GW wrote the script. A few suggestions though;
1. He discovered something as you say which he found abhorrent and struck out at the etherials (I dont think it ever said how they all died).
2. He was borderline insane which was kept in check by the (insert control of choice). When his 'medication' was lost he went rogue.
3. Tau high command abandoned him as a 'lost cause' in the war against the orks, maybe that resentment surfaced again and couldn't be treated.
Pick your poison of choice.
All of them.
Your last sentence is quite telling; There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.
Admirable statement, however in Tau society as it is presently protrayed there is no 'I' only an 'us'
Something Farsight and everyone else disagrees with - us not being the entire galaxy, but only your own species.
1, it says they died while facing an unknown enemy
2. Unlikely considering he still has followers, its not likey if he went insane so many would still follow him. They must agree that what is being done is for the greater good.
3. This most likely why he is disobeying orders, yes.
It is possible that GW is working the misunderstood hero angle with Farsight. I think its possible that he knew a series of fortified worlds was needed on the border, that it was forbidden but the threat was so great it had to be done, so he broke off contact with the empire and set about doing was needed. He has not turned his back on the empire, but for the greater good disobeyed orders and sacrificed his reputation to do it. It fits with the putting the "us" before "I" that the Tau are just better at than humans. I believe the reson he does not have vespids and kroot with him is because they were not part of his forces to begin with.
I am curious about Aun-shi's expedetion to the Farsight enclaves and what that will bring to the story line. Aun'shi if you have not heard of him , is a ethereal who is a hero to the Vior'la sept Farsight is from. And his story line does not make him out to be sinister in the least.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aun%27shi
I think Aun'shi and Farsight would be awesome together.
41484
Post by: darkcloud92
Tun_Tau wrote:Tadashi wrote:AndrewC wrote:I'm not quite sure of your Mass Effect reference as to whether you agree or disagree with me.
Just pointing it out.
Why did Farsight turn his back? I dont know, because GW wrote the script. A few suggestions though;
1. He discovered something as you say which he found abhorrent and struck out at the etherials (I dont think it ever said how they all died).
2. He was borderline insane which was kept in check by the (insert control of choice). When his 'medication' was lost he went rogue.
3. Tau high command abandoned him as a 'lost cause' in the war against the orks, maybe that resentment surfaced again and couldn't be treated.
Pick your poison of choice.
All of them.
Your last sentence is quite telling; There is no point in achieving a future if you lose yourself in the process.
Like batman and robin...or better et batman and batman
Admirable statement, however in Tau society as it is presently protrayed there is no 'I' only an 'us'
Something Farsight and everyone else disagrees with - us not being the entire galaxy, but only your own species.
1, it says they died while facing an unknown enemy
2. Unlikely considering he still has followers, its not likey if he went insane so many would still follow him. They must agree that what is being done is for the greater good.
3. This most likely why he is disobeying orders, yes.
It is possible that GW is working the misunderstood hero angle with Farsight. I think its possible that he knew a series of fortified worlds was needed on the border, that it was forbidden but the threat was so great it had to be done, so he broke off contact with the empire and set about doing was needed. He has not turned his back on the empire, but for the greater good disobeyed orders and sacrificed his reputation to do it. It fits with the putting the "us" before "I" that the Tau are just better at than humans. I believe the reson he does not have vespids and kroot with him is because they were not part of his forces to begin with.
I am curious about Aun-shi's expedetion to the Farsight enclaves and what that will bring to the story line. Aun'shi if you have not heard of him , is a ethereal who is a hero to the Vior'la sept Farsight is from. And his story line does not make him out to be sinister in the least.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Aun%27shi
I think Aun'shi and Farsight would be awesome together.
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