Now I've never been a fan of SCs, when I started playing they where only usable with opponents permission and even then I didn't use them. But these days they move around the FOC so much that you often have to have them for certain builds (Inq henchmen for example). Or they are a normal version x n (want a farseer that can cast 3 times? say hi to Eldrad). So I've been thinking that perhaps the SCs that allow certain builds should perhaps have some disadvantage to them too. So Vulkan while making meltas, flamers and hammers twin linked should also make all marines -1i as with the old salamander rules, meaning you wouldn't see him in every marine army. Shrike could reduce HS slot by one and raise FA by one, while Lysander could do the opposite. There could be an Iron Hands SC who would allow sgts to be upgraded with TDA for a price but didn't allow the taking of terminator squads. This would allow people to build forces that match the fluff of their chosen chapter but always with a disadvantage built in.

Also I would like to be able to match SCs overall abilities, like the Eldrad thing, so if you wanted to spend the points you could get a farseer that can cast as many spells. Obvoiusly characters would need something different, not necessarily better, but different.

What are peoples opinions on Special Characters? Do you use them and would you still if they had inbuilt weaknesses? What would other people like to see with SCs?

Sounds like someone has been catching a beatdown from Vulcan and Eldrad.

FattyJay wrote:Sounds like someone has been catching a beatdown from Vulcan and Eldrad.

Lulz. Alas not, haven't played a game since 4th, now waiting for 6th to hit before I bother learning a rule set, but putting together and paining up a few armies (Eldar and Raven Guard, hence why I reference Eldar and SM) and have been researching army lists and tactics, watching batreps etc. Just noticed a prevalence of Special Characters I never saw back when I played, guess it's just evolution of the game, but still I'd rather not use them and rather not they be auto includes. Am I to take it you're an advocate of SCs?

There's a handful of SC's that are abuseable. Most really aren't an issue. It's no different than anything else aside from the fact that they have unique names. Yes, some are *very* abuseable in terms of army benefits (Vulkan, Imotehk), are silly-abuseable combat machines (Mephiston, Draigo) or are just auto-takes over normal equivalents for most armies (Eldrad).

Most however don't have anything wrong with them, you don't see people complaining about Ahriman, Drazhar, Grotsnik, Yriel, Creed, Bastonne, Trayzn, Seth, Farsight, Rakarth, etc.

Not all special characters are OP


Only some special characters are OP


The special characters that are OP get played more often, so people tend to forget about the crappy ones.




Vulkan Hestan is one of the few things that makes the "Normal Space marines" still somewhat competitive compared to Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Without him (and to a lesser extent some of the other special characters) there is very little reason to take the normal marines over their newer brethren.



Moving around the FOC seems very powerful, but there are Normal Characters which do the same 9or very similar) things as well.

ORKS: Warboss makes 1 Nob unit troops. Big Mech makes one Deff Dread troops.
SPACE MARINES: Captain on a bike makes bikers troops
DARK ELDAR: Hemis make Wracks troops.
GK: Grand Strategy can make whatever you want scoring





In general I am a fan of anything that gives a book multiple options for different builds. The easiest way to do that is by having a special character that changes the entire flavor of the list.

I will use my current army as an example, Grey Knights lead by Coteaz with a bunch of henchmen. it is a completely different list from a "normal GK" list.

I am of firm belief that SM captain should do the same for assault marines as he does for bikes if he takes a jump pack. Do you think that FOC shenanigans should have a downside as mentioned in OP?

I love the GK henchmen list, plan to do an ad mech army using it (knight titans, techmarines, jokaero, electro priests). Just seems hugely versatile. Good tactica article on henchmen btw svendrex, hugely helpful.

The only named characters I consider stupid broken are draigo and mephiston. Everything else is fine.

juraigamer wrote:The only named characters I consider stupid broken are draigo and mephiston. Everything else is fine.

Celestine is also stupidly broken, but in a good way.

I dont know, some armies like guard really dont have any super amazing special characters. They're good, but not amazing (kind of true to the fluff I guess)

As for moving around the FOC, I wish all armies had that to some extent or another. I love the idea of being able to take an all bikers list, or taking extra dreads as troops, etc. Makes the codex more flexible and allows for some cool ideas. The problem is WAAC players will always look for the most powerful build. If you take away a broken character, they'll just use the next best thing. Taking away any one part of the game won't change that sadly, and I don't think we'll ever be truly rid of it.

MrMoustaffa wrote:I dont know, some armies like guard really dont have any super amazing special characters.

Creed and Straken are both amazing force multipliers.

dæl wrote:

FattyJay wrote:Sounds like someone has been catching a beatdown from Vulcan and Eldrad.

Lulz. Alas not, haven't played a game since 4th, now waiting for 6th to hit before I bother learning a rule set, but putting together and paining up a few armies (Eldar and Raven Guard, hence why I reference Eldar and SM) and have been researching army lists and tactics, watching batreps etc. Just noticed a prevalence of Special Characters I never saw back when I played, guess it's just evolution of the game, but still I'd rather not use them and rather not they be auto includes. Am I to take it you're an advocate of SCs?

I only run SCs when I want to spice up my game a little or have some points left over. Granted I play guard so my SCs are largely stuff like 60 point veteran sergeants or Marbo.

SC are supposed to be powerful hence their points. Look at Abaddon he's 275 points hes supposed to be powerful.


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pretre wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:I dont know, some armies like guard really dont have any super amazing special characters.

Creed and Straken are both amazing force multipliers.

Not to mention Marbo is pretty amazing.

Mephiston is fun to make people stress over killing him, but that in itself is a problem as well. If anything I like the SCs that can go into units, but Mephiston has his place.

He's more powerful than necessary though.

Titan Atlas wrote:Mephiston is fun to make people stress over killing him.

the big thing is that he's significantly more powerful than even something like a Daemon Prince and is the size of a basic marine and can be very easily hidden, on top of moving 12" a turn.

pretre wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:I dont know, some armies like guard really dont have any super amazing special characters.

Creed and Straken are both amazing force multipliers.

Only for specific builds, primarily those that rely on large numbers of footslogging infantry, which in and of itself means you're leaving out a lot of goodies typically.

pretre wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:I dont know, some armies like guard really dont have any super amazing special characters.

Creed and Straken are both amazing force multipliers.

Creed is really overrated, you get 4 orders, but you can get that many from two CCS for almost the same price giving you more survivability and Straken only really works with assault oriented guard.

Thing is though, Mephiston's really fragile and not as useful as people may think. He's a beatstick, but very vulnerable.

Titan Atlas wrote:Thing is though, Mephiston's really fragile and not as useful as people may think. He's a beatstick, but very vulnerable.

T6 W5 and a 2+sv is hardly vulnerable. He can very easily get cover saves against Ap2 shooting attacks, and unless he's trying to take on a TH/SS unit by himself in CC he can probably weather whatever is being thrown at him.

And he can:
boost his Strength to 10,
Get Preferred enemy
Activate a Force Weapon
become Jump Infantry

He can do 3 of the above per turn and has Transfixing gaze to kill any IC that come near him. And T6 with a 2+ save and 5W totally fragile

dæl wrote:What are peoples opinions on Special Characters?

Special characters cost too much for what they do. They're good if you want something fun and different, want to do an unconventional army build (when said special characters unlock stuff, like terminators as troops, etc.), or when you underestimate their cost.

Ailaros wrote:

dæl wrote:What are peoples opinions on Special Characters?

Special characters cost too much for what they do.

Hrm, many do, some very much do not, especially those that appear consistently in armies over their "mundane" counterparts. That's not specific to SC's, but there are SC's that very much could use cost increases. Vulkan would be one, if you're going to kit out a killy HQ that isn't in Termi armor, he's about as close as you'd get, and his army wide bonus makes all the stuff you'd take lots of anyway even better, for an irrelevant relative cost increase. There's a reason I didn't see a single C:SM army without him for a full year after the release of the book in 2008.

Vaktathi wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

dæl wrote:What are peoples opinions on Special Characters?

Special characters cost too much for what they do.

Hrm, many do, some very much do not, especially those that appear consistently in armies over their "mundane" counterparts. That's not specific to SC's, but there are SC's that very much could use cost increases. Vulkan would be one, if you're going to kit out a killy HQ that isn't in Termi armor, he's about as close as you'd get, and his army wide bonus makes all the stuff you'd take lots of anyway even better, for an irrelevant relative cost increase. There's a reason I didn't see a single C:SM army without him for a full year after the release of the book in 2008.

So would you advocate an army wide initiative decrease to tie him to the sallies rather than just superspacemarinewitharmywidebuffs! Sorry to keep on going on about this, just think its a nice way to get more fluff on the tabletop, and would mean less specific chapter SM codexes if SCs could make lists fluffy and different from each other.

Vaktathi wrote:Vulkan would be one... for an irrelevant relative cost increase.

As I said...

Ailaros wrote:or when you underestimate their cost.

For 45 more points than a captain with a relic blade and a storm shield, you basically get a heavy flamer. That and a small percentage of your weapons become +1/3rd killer for the loss of combat tactics. If you don't see why losing combat tactics is bad, then you're seriously underestimating the cost of vulkan.

Which is why you see vulkan a lot. There are a lot of SM commanders who don't understand their codex and so think of giving up combat tactics for chapter tactics as a free upgrade. Not that there aren't people who want to play salamanders, or who know the cost, but take it anyways, but I would bet a big majority of SM players literally don't know what they're missing when they take vulkan.

Not to disagree with your point, but that small percentage of weapons are often the most important ones in your army.

pretre wrote:Not to disagree with your point, but that small percentage of weapons are often the most important ones in your army.

sigh...

Ailaros wrote:or when you underestimate

If you look at a tac squad and all you see is the meltagun...

No, I get what you're saying. I use Combat Tactics all the time, but to say that you are giving up too much for Vulkan is not always correct. Some builds using Vulkan maximize his benefits to the army and hence he is a good buy.

I've never had a hard time with mephiston... I can see he'd be tough for some armies but with my orks the first time i had him put on the field was vs ghaz and mephiston was tar pitted by some orks and da lads were close to running scared after fearless saves they were down to like 3-4 boys and the nob so ghaz let out a mighty waagh and ripped mephiston to ribbons

though i guess ghaz is another one of those big bad independant characters... nobz also rip through mephiston, i usually take a few sacrificial nobz anyway for instant death allocation ... also because what else am I going to do with AoBR nobz.... and his lack of in inv save really hurts mephiston.

i do see where he could rip through alot of armies though if they weren't mobile enough.

in general though i like big powerful independent character they are usually price appropriatly set and the ones that give specific units force org work arounds really help to make some unique armies liek a draigo all paladin army sure they are tough but they are so expensive that some lists will roflstomp them while opthers will just fall apart to it

Okay, I play Salamanders, so I'm admitedly biased.

But I think I already have a disadvantage when I play Vulkan. I lose Combat Tactics. Seriously. I primarily play one of two builds, either with Vulkan, or with a Librarian, so I spend about half of my games with the twin-linked goodness and about half my games with Combat Tactics, and I think they are both extremely useful. I am opposed to penalizing me with a further negative just so that my opponents can feel better about my fluffiness. The loss of Combat Tactics is penalty enough for Vulkan, I think.

pretre wrote: Some builds using Vulkan maximize his benefits to the army and hence he is a good buy.

Right.

Ailaros wrote:Not that there aren't people who want to play salamanders, or who know the cost, but take it anyways, but I would bet a big majority of SM players literally don't know what they're missing when they take vulkan.

I think the OP's problem here isn't that vulkan lists are overpowered, because they're not, given the costs you need to field vulkan. The problem is more likely that he's getting stomped by a person who can competently field vulkan and is blaming his loss on the character, rather than the other player.

I kid you not, I saw a game where a tau player with a farsight list crushed someone else, who then came to the conclusion that farsight is "so overpowered" because he lost to tau. Was kind of painful to see...

... yes, the fact that you failed to castle up against his suit spam, causing your army to collapse like a piece of tin foil, giving your opponent something to use farsight against means that farsight is so totally OP because look what he did to your army...

lol. People will blame their losses on anything. I generally blame them on my poor generalship.

Ailaros wrote:

pretre wrote: Some builds using Vulkan maximize his benefits to the army and hence he is a good buy.

Right.

Ailaros wrote:Not that there aren't people who want to play salamanders, or who know the cost, but take it anyways, but I would bet a big majority of SM players literally don't know what they're missing when they take vulkan.

I think the OP's problem here isn't that vulkan lists are overpowered, because they're not, given the costs you need to field vulkan. The problem is more likely that he's getting stomped by a person who can competently field vulkan and is blaming his loss on the character, rather than the other player.

I kid you not, I saw a game where a tau player with a farsight list crushed someone else, who then came to the conclusion that farsight is "so overpowered" because he lost to tau. Was kind of painful to see...

... yes, the fact that you failed to castle up against his suit spam, causing your army to collapse like a piece of tin foil, giving your opponent something to use farsight against means that farsight is so totally OP because look what he did to your army...

See post #3. My main point was to try and get SCs to be more chapter specific, hate the idea of having to use BA codex for Raven Guard, or SW for Iron Hands, and think that SCs should reflect their chapter in the force that gets put out when they are played. So by Vulkan (why not run with it) making sallies into actual sallies with the reduced initiative, and possibly 1 unit of termies taken as a troops choice. Farsight is a good point actually, doesn't he impose restrictions on your force? Thats what I would want from lyasnder and shrike and all, so as there aren't 100 ultramarine armies led by lysander and assault termie list led by shrike.

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Vulkan would be one... for an irrelevant relative cost increase.

As I said...

Ailaros wrote:or when you underestimate their cost.

For 45 more points than a captain with a relic blade and a storm shield, you basically get a heavy flamer. That and a small percentage of your weapons become +1/3rd killer for the loss of combat tactics. If you don't see why losing combat tactics is bad, then you're seriously underestimating the cost of vulkan.

Combat tactics is a fun little special rule, but it's grossly being overestimated.

First, it only applies if you've been put into a situation where you have to take a test, and usually in such situations you don't want to fail it.

When you do, it's usefulness is usually on very fast squads that can choose to fail tests against shooting (e.g. Bikes) to avoid getting assaulted/quickly reposition and the like, but most of the time you don't want to fall back against shooting with most squads and if you chose to lose combat then you have much greater chances that you're either going to get caught (as with the vast majority of armies in the game Init's lower than I4 are the exception and equal init opposing units have a greater chance of sweeping than you do of getting away) and simply fight on thanks to ATSKNF, or you're not going to be able to get more than 6" away and stand a good chance of being escorted off the table or charged again as opposed to being able to get away.

Sometimes it might be worth it even if you continue falling back if you're far enough away to give you time to destroy the attacking unit before you fall off the table, but rarely and highly subjective.

It's usefulness is situational in the extreme and will quite often never come up at all in many games.

Getting to swap that to enhance the capabilities of your primary infantry based tank hunting and infantry clearing weapons as well as enhancing the capabilities of your primary deathstar unit is far more than a fair trade. At least one if not all of these weapons will be utilized, often on every single turn of the game.

Which is why you see vulkan a lot. There are a lot of SM commanders who don't understand their codex and so think of giving up combat tactics for chapter tactics as a free upgrade.

Because in many cases it is. Combat tactics is highly situational and highly variable in its effectiveness, while twin linking meltaweapons, flamer weapons, and rerolling hits with thunderhammers, weapons which at least two of the three are likely present in any given list if not all 3 and at least 1 in large numbers, will pay off far more consistently and noticeably, often every single turn of a game.

Not that there aren't people who want to play salamanders, or who know the cost, but take it anyways, but I would bet a big majority of SM players literally don't know what they're missing when they take vulkan.

Methinks you're making far too much of Combat Tactics. It's nice, but it's not useful every game, and it's utilized even less. That alone is enough to ditch it. Given how often it ends up not doing what you want it to do on top of that, it's a no-brainer for most armies.


Lets not forget that for 30pts Vulkan not only gets his army wide abilities and a Heavy Flamer, but also a TL'd heavy flamer, a wound reroll and a to-hit reroll.


And I guess I'll leave off on this. Since the SM codex came out in 2008, I have never seen Combat Tactics change the ultimate outcome of a game or feature significantly into anyone's playstyle/battle plan.

Not once in 4 years at probably three dozen tournaments and several different metro areas and about seven or eight stores/clubs and god knows how many games.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever seen it used to any degree of success with fingers to spare, while I have seen Vulkan's ability used to great success and actively change game results on repeated occasions.

To me, that says something. Granted, it's subjective anecdotal evidence so take that as one will, but it's a lot more actual experience than most people in this hobby have (Note: Not meant to imply any lack of experience on anyone's part, only that it's a lot more than the average player)

And as already pointed out, it's Vulkan's abilities that raise Codex Marines to the top of the second tier.

You already pay a penalty, it's called playing Codex Space Marines rather than Codex Blue Blood Angels.

As for the suggested penalties? Complete rubbish. -1 initiative as a penalty for living on a high gravity is complete nonsense. +1 initiative would be a more accurate penalty. Imperial Fists are a Codex army equal to the Ultramarines, they would never be short of equipment. Likewise the Ravenguard are not recorded as being short of equipment.

Farsight is an anachronism, a reminder of the days when GW forced you to play your army a certain way. Today is all about choice.

As for the suggested penalties? Complete rubbish. -1 initiative as a penalty for living on a high gravity is complete nonsense. +1 initiative would be a more accurate penalty.

Because the ogryn turned out as super speedy monsters!

Wait..

To put it accurately, one becomes denser on a high gravity planet. The density would drag them down since they would need to be in order to survive.

There already is a penalty for SCs... cost. The only penalty I would entertain would be increasing their costs to reflect their special abilities (well, and nerfing Mephiston).

I do not use SC in my games. I do play against people with SC.

I personally feel that most SC are undercosted. Im all for flavour and extra abilities etc... just make sure the points cost is RIGHT.

Everyone agrees Vulkan is OP for his points costs. Add another 100 pts to his price tag and all of a sudden he might be about right.

MOST of GW's special characters are OP for their cost in points. I dont see why they cant release an Errata on all the SC's to fix the points costs... actually I cant see why GW dont errata half of 5E but whatever lol

Milisim wrote:
Everyone agrees Vulkan is OP for his points costs. Add another 100 pts to his price tag and all of a sudden he might be about right.

At 295 points no one would by Vulkan. I'm also not entirely convinced he's "OP" for his points cost, it's more that a beatstick Captain on his own isn't a very good choice.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Likewise the Ravenguard are not recorded as being short of equipment.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut? The Raven Guard are short on people and materiels, have been since they were on the receiving end of some chaotic fun times at Istvaan. It would make perfect sense for them to lose a HS but gain a FA or something like that, hell that (or something very similar) was part of their rules in the last SM codex.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

As for the suggested penalties? Complete rubbish. -1 initiative as a penalty for living on a high gravity is complete nonsense. +1 initiative would be a more accurate penalty.

Because the ogryn turned out as super speedy monsters!

Wait..

To put it accurately, one becomes denser on a high gravity planet. The density would drag them down since they would need to be in order to survive.

On a high gravity world your smallest stumble can be bone breaking, so selection favours those with faster reflexes. Constantly working against heavier gravity means muscles will be stronger too compared to a normal gravity world. Though strength and speed would not exceed human peaks, they would be biased far closer to those peaks than people living on Earth normal planets.

One does not become "denser". It is a physical impossibility for human tissues to become "denser" beyond the compression of tissues due to higher surrounding pressure. One becomes heavier in high gravity, which requires greater strength to move, but one does not become "denser."

Ogryns are a fantasy icon transplanted to the 40k universe. The reality is that high gravity would favour short, muscular, fast, humans, not oversized slow monstrosities.


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motyak wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Likewise the Ravenguard are not recorded as being short of equipment.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut? The Raven Guard are short on people and materiels, have been since they were on the receiving end of some chaotic fun times at Istvaan. It would make perfect sense for them to lose a HS but gain a FA or something like that, hell that (or something very similar) was part of their rules in the last SM codex.

You mean they're still short handed after 10,000 years?

Ultramarines rebuilt their entire first company in less than 500.

There have been entire Chapters founded and fully equipped in a matter of centuries.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut?

To quote Index Astartes.

"As far as can be ascertained, the Salamanders' gene-seed appears to be stable and as yet uncorrupted. The reflexes of Salamanders Space Marines are not a fast as those of other Chapters, although they are still quick when suited in power armour. However, it is unknown whether this defect is due to a problem in the gene-seed, being raised on a high gravity world, or the Chapter's doctrine against hastiness and impetuosity."

Salamanders are slower than other marines, its been that way for years. What else would people want other than having your most effective weapons twin linked? Should Reinforced Ceramite be brought back too? Or the option for signums and artificer armour for everyone?


Raven Guard don't use many vehicles. Again to quote Index Astartes.

Since the Horus Heresy, the Raven Guard have come to rely on their infantry, and have never made use of armoured vehicles to the extent of other Chapters

Therefore they couldn't select more HS choices than FA. They could also add +1 to reserves rolls when there were any scouts on he table.

People claim that Chapters don't really need their own codexes, if their Chapter specific SCs made them into distinct separate armies would his not mean all marine armies were the same.

Thanks to the Codex Astartes they are pretty much the same.

And to say that Raven Guard don't use armoured vehicles as readily as other Chapters doesn't mean that they don't have the option. It just means they prefer not to, something that is completely replicable by the player using the codex.

Salamanders being "slower" than other marines may be fluff, but it doesn't mean they're as slow as a normal human. A doctrine against haste might explain it, but with uncorrupted geneseed, and a high gravity world, they should still be initiative 4.

To quote myself,

Today is all about choice.

You mean that the cost of some of these guys isn't enough of a disadvantage? And the fact that they will become bullet- or blob-magnets as soon as they hit the field? Just lewrn how to deal with them and move on. This hobby will never go anywhere if we refuse to play someo e because they used a tough special character.

And why has no one brought up Lysander?

I like the way meph has been brought up time and time again.
Of course he is strong, your paying the price for a landraider/monolith for him!

However, his drawback is the lack of a ++ save.
No character is perfect when it comes to simple hammer characters.
Every single one has a flaw or 2.



Vect for DE.
Nice rules and all, but LR points again.
Now, if you want him on the dais, thats nearly the same again.
Oh, and you need to have 9 other models in it to use it -_-

Lelith - ton of PW attacks, quick, but T3 and no EW.

Drazhar - kind of like lelith but tougher, but no ++ save LR points yet again.





Its mainly force multiplier characters that push limits of sanity like eldrad and stormlord.
Alas, learn your targets better and focus more fire / tarpit them.

You dont complain when you see 3 landraiders hit the board.

But hey, i could field drazhar, or, i could field this:

5 trueborn; 4 blasters, dracon with blast pistol. - 140
Venom; 2x splinter cannon - 65

Less points and a ton more use.

I usually see SC's as a sink in points for a list.
I rather see 200 odd points thrown into a character that has flaws than the same cost invested in melta or lascannons.

Coming from a salamanders player who always fields Vulkan (cuz lets face it, without him i'm running ultramarines in green. :( ) I agree with the OP that armies should have negatives as well as positives, BUT I don't think it should be connected to the leader, i think it should just be part of your army. I would like to ALWAYS be a salamander, not just when Vulkan can make it to the field. Would Vulkan ALWAYS fight with the salamanders in the fluff? No, in fact, he barely ever fights with them, he's almost always off on his own searching for the remnants of the primarch Vulkan, so why is he in every little skirmish I have? It makes no sense. And yes, for the record I would still run Vulkan as my HQ in higher point games, even if I already had the bonuses he gives.

Now, I know someone (probably a lot of people) will have a problem with me wanting TL meltas and such for free, but I would ask, what price do BA, GK or SW have to pay in order to be the chapter they want to be? I don't think Salamanders deserve their own codex or anything, but maybe just a page in the next SM codex for each major chapter in Vanilla (Salamanders, IF, White scars...)

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

motyak wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote: Likewise the Ravenguard are not recorded as being short of equipment.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut? The Raven Guard are short on people and materiels, have been since they were on the receiving end of some chaotic fun times at Istvaan. It would make perfect sense for them to lose a HS but gain a FA or something like that, hell that (or something very similar) was part of their rules in the last SM codex.

You mean they're still short handed after 10,000 years?

Ultramarines rebuilt their entire first company in less than 500.

There have been entire Chapters founded and fully equipped in a matter of centuries.

I don't normally pick on someone for something they say fluffwise, but lolwut?

dæl wrote:Also I would like to be able to match SCs overall abilities, like the Eldrad thing, so if you wanted to spend the points you could get a farseer that can cast as many spells. Obvoiusly characters would need something different, not necessarily better, but different.

Sorry, this makes no sense... you want to be able to build generic characters that match the special characters' abilities... but you want the special characters to still have different abilities...?

insaniak wrote:

dæl wrote:Also I would like to be able to match SCs overall abilities, like the Eldrad thing, so if you wanted to spend the points you could get a farseer that can cast as many spells. Obvoiusly characters would need something different, not necessarily better, but different.

Sorry, this makes no sense... you want to be able to build generic characters that match the special characters' abilities... but you want the special characters to still have different abilities...?

Most spells a farseer can cast is 2.
Eldrad can cast 3.
Eldrad has Divination as well.

Why not give Eldrad another unique spell, but allow someone who wishes to pay the points have a farseer who can cast 3 spells? This is why even though from Ultwe, and he's dead he seems to be involved in half the skirmishes the Eldar of all craftworlds are involved in.

dæl wrote:Why not give Eldrad another unique spell, but allow someone who wishes to pay the points have a farseer who can cast 3 spells?

Because then you would be asking how come regular Farseers can't cast Eldrad's unique spell...

Being able to cast 3 spells a turn is what makes Eldrad unique.

No. Divination, being able to cast the same spell twice and having a power weapon are what make Eldrad unique. Notice I wasn't asking for any of those.

edit: and a 3++ save

dæl wrote:No. Divination, being able to cast the same spell twice and having a power weapon...

...and being able to cast 3 powers in a turn...

are what make Eldrad unique.

Notice I wasn't asking for any of those.

You weren't?

dæl wrote:Also I would like to be able to match SCs overall abilities,

Because it sort of sounds like you were.

insaniak wrote: it sort of sounds like you were.

Yeah, I would like to be able to match the overall level of power of an SC, like the amount of powers being cast.
But SCs should be unique in specific powers, abilities.

Apologise if my language was ambiguous. How often are people seeing Eldrad. He's almost an auto-pick, but if you could have a 3 powers Farseer without the pw, 3++, double up on spells, and deployment shenanigans, how much less prevalent would he be?

Mongooli wrote:Coming from a salamanders player who always fields Vulkan (cuz lets face it, without him i'm running ultramarines in green. :( )

That's because that's what they are. They're a codex adherent chapter, whose only real differences comes organisationally (7 larger companies compared to 10) and tactically (they use less fast attack units like bikes, assault squads and land speeders due to it being more difficult to train with the equipment on their homeworld). Their other differences are all based on equipment having a higher level of artifice due to every Salamander maintaining and customising his own equipment.

The old Armageddon codex list came the closest to capturing them, and hey, what were the differences in that? Exactly as above. Less fast attack, access to artificer armour and master crafted weapons for sergeants, more esoteric equipment like signums being available to tactical squads, tacical squads being able to take a second flamer, and assault squads having access to a flamer. They had an I3 penalty added, which I didn't mind, though the part someone quoted above doesn't justify it. I3 is human slow. Salamanders are still fast in power armour.

The Armageddon list was the best representation since it was - like Salamanders - green Ultramarines with access to more master crafted stuff and esoteric equipment and a few more flamers scattered around. Vulkan shows Wards shallow view of them - flamers and hammers and meltas herp derp. They're more than that, but it's just harder to actually represent it. If you wanted green Marines that aren't green Ultramarines, you should have gone with Dark Angels.

So if he was bad and fareseers were better, he would be uncommon.

I guess that's true.

Unreg1stered wrote:So if he was bad and fareseers were better, he would be uncommon.

I guess that's true.

If he was as good as he is now, but farseers were closer, he would be less common

Do people really not understand what I'm getting at, or are they being deliberately obtuse?
How would not changing Eldrad make him bad? How would a farseer with none of his unique abilities be better than him?

The other thing too that makes Vulkan Under Costed is that I could put a railgun through his head and his whole army still gets the re reolls... If they lose it with his death that would be better...

As a Tau player If I was mental and took the Space Pope and he died, I get a negative to that and a huge one at that.. Vulkan Chapter Master dies and everyone just carries on rerolling and plinking away. Part of that is what also makes him undercosted.

It would be an interesting concept to have ZERO special characters in games under 2000 pts. Since there is no reason for all these famous champions being in a skirmish with a few rag tag armies running around.

Milisim wrote:The other thing too that makes Vulkan Under Costed is that I could put a railgun through his head and his whole army still gets the re reolls... If they lose it with his death that would be better...

As a Tau player If I was mental and took the Space Pope and he died, I get a negative to that and a huge one at that.. Vulkan Chapter Master dies and everyone just carries on rerolling and plinking away. Part of that is what also makes him undercosted.

It would be an interesting concept to have ZERO special characters in games under 2000 pts. Since there is no reason for all these famous champions being in a skirmish with a few rag tag armies running around.

Vulkan isn't the chapter master.
Also the armies flamers aren't just magically made better by his presence.
They represent modifications made by the Salamanders to their favourite weapons.
SM place a lot of faith in their commanders, killing one is likely to have the opposite effect in them as it does Tau since SM are trained to a much higher degree, that said it is possible to demoralise them to the point where they must pull back to regroup...
The way i imagine most games of 40k is that it is a small part of a much larger battle.
Your 500/1000 point army may be only be fighting a small part of a much larger battle.

No Milisim...Nooooo! I don't want the points bracket of regular 40K games to rise that far....noooooooo.

Even though you are right, why the feth would calgar/creed/anyone really rock up to a 1500 point game.

Wasn't the Nightbringer only allowed in battles over a certain points cost once?

Tau SC still are limited in points

motyak wrote:Tau SC still are limited in points

Is that because they are too powerful for 500-1000 pt games? Unlike mephiston

dæl wrote:

motyak wrote:Tau SC still are limited in points

Is that because they are too powerful for 500-1000 pt games? Unlike mephiston

Old codex.
Though in terms of how many models they can get killed technically Tau SC are among the deadliest...

I think it is 1500 or larger they are allowed in. Didn't everyone in an old codex have limits like that?

Used to be they could only be used with opponents consent, a bit like FW stuff. Some people had views they a bit like they do with FW now about overpoweredness too. Looked through my 3rd ed Eldar codex and Eldrad is 2000+, and the others are with opponents consent, except the Phoenix Lords.

motyak wrote:I think it is 1500 or larger they are allowed in. Didn't everyone in an old codex have limits like that?

That's gone now. They're just regular entries now.

All SCs have a weak spot. You just have to find it. I killed Meph and an assault squad in a battle mission game. The only thing they killed. A whirlwind. If you charge the squad he's with, they have NO chance. Then get a SC in B2B contact.

Draigo is more problematic. But equally useless. Bog him down with a horde, or even better, shoot him with some nice AP1 weapons.

Its just the same as deathstar units, only its a model in this case.

Doctadeth wrote:All SCs have a weak spot. You just have to find it. I killed Meph and an assault squad in a battle mission game. The only thing they killed. A whirlwind. If you charge the squad he's with, they have NO chance. Then get a SC in B2B contact.

Draigo is more problematic. But equally useless. Bog him down with a horde, or even better, shoot him with some nice AP1 weapons.

Its just the same as deathstar units, only its a model in this case.

Dude, mephy can't be in a squad, he's not an IC. You got robbed.

And its true, focus fire/attention can get rid of lots of SCs, but its easier when they are loners (like mephy) than ICs (like Draigo). Hell, the unit draigo is normally with (pallies) sees you normally put the S8+ Ap1-2 weaponry on him, so the men are saved.

The special characters that are force multipliers are the culprit here, as well as the silliness of agreeing to a 500 point game where someone would be allowed to field Abbadon or Mephy. (Just agree to not play that).

Vulkan could be simply a commander with no special wargear and would be taken in exactly as many marine armies... why? Because a Vulkan army suddenly maxes out his benefit, and if your not then your not trying hard enough. Any GK player taking Crowe, Coteaz or Draigo MIGHT be taking them for fluff, however you will invariably seeing their other power which switches around things. Stormlord falls somewhat into this category although his ability relies on larger games to give him more targets to zappy.

Few people have issues with the landraider-costed beatsticks most army books have.

lazarian wrote:The special characters that are force multipliers are the culprit here, as well as the silliness of agreeing to a 500 point game where someone would be allowed to field Abbadon or Mephy. (Just agree to not play that).

Vulkan could be simply a commander with no special wargear and would be taken in exactly as many marine armies... why? Because a Vulkan army suddenly maxes out his benefit, and if your not then your not trying hard enough. Any GK player taking Crowe, Coteaz or Draigo MIGHT be taking them for fluff, however you will invariably seeing their other power which switches around things. Stormlord falls somewhat into this category although his ability relies on larger games to give him more targets to zappy.

Few people have issues with the landraider-costed beatsticks most army books have.

Because most of the landraider-costed beatsticks aren't worth it, abbadon is to expensive and to slow with the ability to hit himself on a 1, and Typhus is..not worth it thanks to lack of EW

There's very few 250+ that are worth it without a force modifier (Except maybe that forgeworld 250+ Tau commander with all the really nice weaponry)

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

lazarian wrote:The special characters that are force multipliers are the culprit here, as well as the silliness of agreeing to a 500 point game where someone would be allowed to field Abbadon or Mephy. (Just agree to not play that).

Vulkan could be simply a commander with no special wargear and would be taken in exactly as many marine armies... why? Because a Vulkan army suddenly maxes out his benefit, and if your not then your not trying hard enough. Any GK player taking Crowe, Coteaz or Draigo MIGHT be taking them for fluff, however you will invariably seeing their other power which switches around things. Stormlord falls somewhat into this category although his ability relies on larger games to give him more targets to zappy.

Few people have issues with the landraider-costed beatsticks most army books have.

Because most of the landraider-costed beatsticks aren't worth it, abbadon is to expensive and to slow with the ability to hit himself on a 1, and Typhus is..not worth it thanks to lack of EW

There's very few 250+ that are worth it without a force modifier (Except maybe that forgeworld 250+ Tau commander with all the really nice weaponry)

Isnt that the point though? There is in existence special characters that are in fact too powerful for their point costs? Ebay would crash with the number of Salamander armies thrown on there the minute Vulkan was rebalanced removing twin linked silliness. Same thing with Crowe/Coteaz/Draigo.

lazarian wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

lazarian wrote:The special characters that are force multipliers are the culprit here, as well as the silliness of agreeing to a 500 point game where someone would be allowed to field Abbadon or Mephy. (Just agree to not play that).

Vulkan could be simply a commander with no special wargear and would be taken in exactly as many marine armies... why? Because a Vulkan army suddenly maxes out his benefit, and if your not then your not trying hard enough. Any GK player taking Crowe, Coteaz or Draigo MIGHT be taking them for fluff, however you will invariably seeing their other power which switches around things. Stormlord falls somewhat into this category although his ability relies on larger games to give him more targets to zappy.

Few people have issues with the landraider-costed beatsticks most army books have.

Because most of the landraider-costed beatsticks aren't worth it, abbadon is to expensive and to slow with the ability to hit himself on a 1, and Typhus is..not worth it thanks to lack of EW

There's very few 250+ that are worth it without a force modifier (Except maybe that forgeworld 250+ Tau commander with all the really nice weaponry)

Isnt that the point though? There is in existence special characters that are in fact too powerful for their point costs? Ebay would crash with the number of Salamander armies thrown on there the minute Vulkan was rebalanced removing twin linked silliness. Same thing with Crowe/Coteaz/Draigo.

Yes, but the opposite happening for other armies isn't exactly helping. The problem being that most of the ones often listed, are the underpriced SC movers for units that would be balanced if they stayed in their slots. (Except Henchmen, but I pine for the days of an inquisitor army myself). Purifiers are horribly costed otherwise, since you can kit out the same group as a strike squad and end up CHEAPER. Paladins are only so bad due to wound allocation and Kill Points.

Vulkan is just to far undercosted for both his benefits, and his own beatstick status in general.

Another one no one complains about is Logar and the wolf guard, as well as some others. The main issue is Purifiers are just to cheap to begin with, draigo is as expensive as abbadon but gets more special rules and abilities and a force modifier. and they all still get psyflemen as backup. While vulkans issue is that he's far to cheap for his powers and benefits.

Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

To maximise Vulkan's ability we have to take short ranged weapons, flamer and melta, which really makes Vulkan a monobuild. Though he boosts hammernators you probably won't see them due to the cost of meching them. We also lose combat tactics.

Units which can take flamer/melta weapons?

Sternguard, good unit but gets pricey fast.
Dreadnoughts/Ironclad Dreadnoughts good units, but drop podding them in puts them in range of enemy melta in your first turn. At range you're better off with rifleman dreadnoughts, which makes you a normal Marine list.

Tactical squads, certainly these can take three melta weapons but 220 points for 10 men in a Rhino isn't exactly cheap and that's just three guns (one a single-shot).

Land Speeders, these are actually good, but again getting close with an armour 10 vehicle isn't a recipe for a long life.
Attack bikes with multi-meltas, this is a good unit too, but again, short ranged and being unmeched, fragile.
Bike Squads, unless taken as troops (necessitating a captain) these are not going to be taken when compared to Speeders and Attack Bikes.
Assault Squads, ha ha, had you going there for a minute didn't I?

Land Raiders with pintle multi-meltas. That's an expensive unit for one twin-linked weapon. If I recall correctly redeemer's inferno cannons don't benefit from Vulkan. I'm pretty sure people just take Predators anyway.

Opportunity cost is Vulkan's biggest penalty. To benefit from his rules your selection of units, and their options, is severely curtailed. If you try to take a mix of units then your main beneficiaries are tactical squads (Vulkanising makes them almost a worthwhile unit, but not quite) and Land Speeders (short-ranged, vulnerable to firepower) or Attack Bikes (short-ranged, vulnerable to firepower). Sternguard might be taken, if you can spare the points, or basic multi-melta dreadnoughts.

You could combine him with a bike army, if you felt like spending 450 points on your HQs, but as people will point out bike armies are still a second tier Space Marine list. Better just to take a Captain on bike there.

Tell me again that Pheonix lords are too powerful...

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

Also, a captain with that gear is actually very far from being worth it. I would say a captain with that gear would be a competitive choice at 140ish pts, which allows +50pts for all of Vulkan's buffs. Seems fairly well balanced IMO.

It does show how horribly useless and overcosted captains are though.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

To maximise Vulkan's ability we have to take short ranged weapons, flamer and melta, which really makes Vulkan a monobuild. Though he boosts hammernators you probably won't see them due to the cost of meching them. We also lose combat tactics.

Melta weapons are already the special weapon. In an era of mechanised armies and endless cover saves, where flamers need a cracked transport and plasma guns stop the unit from assaulting, melta guns are what you find by default in any squad that can take them.

Hammernators in a Land Raider are extremely common for the simple fact that they are fething fantastic for their points. For their points, they are the most durable shock assault unit in any army and hit very hard.

Vulcan makes melta weapons, and the already fantastic hammernators, far better. These are things anyone trying to be competitive with Space Marines will already have in their army. It's not about building an army around Vulcan, it's about Vulcan slotting into a competitive Space Marine army with little problem. For his points, as a force multiplier, he's a fething bargain.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Units which can take flamer/melta weapons?

Every single unit in the Space Marine list and some, if not most, vehicles. Even if a unit can't, the sergeant can take a combi weapon. Vulkan takes the risk out of combi weapons, giving you a reroll to hit (or to wound on combi flamers) single shot.

Illumini wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

Also, a captain with that gear is actually very far from being worth it. I would say a captain with that gear would be a competitive choice at 140ish pts, which allows +50pts for all of Vulkan's buffs. Seems fairly well balanced IMO.

It does show how horribly useless and overcosted captains are though.

Actually I do agree with this, considering that captains are horrible. for 0 points less or more you can get a librarian with a force weapon, psyker hood, and two free abilities, and even that is overcosted a bit!

-Loki- wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

To maximise Vulkan's ability we have to take short ranged weapons, flamer and melta, which really makes Vulkan a monobuild. Though he boosts hammernators you probably won't see them due to the cost of meching them. We also lose combat tactics.

Melta weapons are already the special weapon. In an era of mechanised armies and endless cover saves, where flamers need a cracked transport and plasma guns stop the unit from assaulting, melta guns are what you find by default in any squad that can take them.

Hammernators in a Land Raider are extremely common for the simple fact that they are fething fantastic for their points. For their points, they are the most durable shock assault unit in any army and hit very hard.

Vulcan makes melta weapons, and the already fantastic hammernators, far better. These are things anyone trying to be competitive with Space Marines will already have in their army. It's not about building an army around Vulcan, it's about Vulcan slotting into a competitive Space Marine army with little problem. For his points, as a force multiplier, he's a fething bargain.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Units which can take flamer/melta weapons?

Every single unit in the Space Marine list and some, if not most, vehicles. Even if a unit can't, the sergeant can take a combi weapon. Vulkan takes the risk out of combi weapons, giving you a reroll to hit (or to wound on combi flamers) single shot.

That very popularity of melta weapons means that Land Raiders are not as popular as they used to be. To get one squad across the battlefield you need 2 units, and that runs to 900 points. As for "every unit," isn't it more appropriate to actually talk about units people will take? We can debate the relative merits of flamer equipped assault squads, or multi-melta equipped devastator squads till the cows come home, but since nobody takes them such a debate would be pointless (I did forget devastator squads but then, doesn't everyone?). Yes, Vulkan boosts tactical squads (but they need it), attack bikes, land speeders and dreadnoughts (if you take short ranged variants) and Sternguard. None of those units are game breaking. Some (tactical squads) are decidedly lacklustre. Others, (Sternguard) are very expensive if you tool them up to benefit from Vulkan.

Most competitive Space Marine armies I've seen max out on rifleman dreadnoughts, Typhoon speeders and auto/las Predators. That leaves either switching to a close ranged armament (multi-melta dreads (drop pods?) and speeders) or Vulkan only boosting tactical squads. You do have to build an army to take advantage of him. That is the opportunity cost. The army that would really benefit from him (bikes) can't take him and a biker captain without having too many points tied up in HQ.

There are some interesting points here, I bet it would be in-character for Eldrad to slap you with 0-1 on all Aspect Warrior units but allow Guardians to become Black Guardians for +1 BS for additional cost or some such.

AnomanderRake wrote:There are some interesting points here, I bet it would be in-character for Eldrad to slap you with 0-1 on all Aspect Warrior units but allow Guardians to become Black Guardians for +1 BS for additional cost or some such.

Thus tying him to Ultwe type lists, me gusta. Perhaps Yriel could allow Wraithguard units of 5 + Spiritseer to become troops, but make guardians 0-1. (That might end up open for abuse though, but I expect GW would make loads of money)

lazarian wrote:
Isnt that the point though? There is in existence special characters that are in fact too powerful for their point costs? Ebay would crash with the number of Salamander armies thrown on there the minute Vulkan was rebalanced removing twin linked silliness. Same thing with Crowe/Coteaz/Draigo.

Main value in Crowe/Coteaz/Draigo is the FOC changes. Not so much in their other abilities.
Coteaz you might see still taken even if he didn't make Henchmen troops, but Crowe? Never. There's a reason he's known as "Crowe tax" in purifier armies.

Draigo might be taken, but I doubt it in any game below 2000. He is a monster, but considering that if paladins weren't troops, you'd be better off just taking either cheap inquisitor or techmarine with rad and psychotrope grenades.
So main value for these characters isn't the characters so much, but the changes they give to FOC structure.

The most obvious 'broken' special character is of course Mephiston.But even with him, any of the following changes would drop Mephiston in the "reasonable" category: T5, Size change, No wings or no Sword of Sanguinius.
T5 would make it possible to insta-kill him with S10. Size change would make it harder to hide him. Removing wings would make it possible to manouver around him. Removing Sword of Sanguinius would make it possible to tie him with Walker.

Mephiston can be handled, but it requires completely disproportionate amount of resources to deal with him.

Illumini wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:Not far too cheap, a Captain with Vulkan's equipment would be in the region of 180 points. His ability is worth more than 10 points, but how much more?

Also, a captain with that gear is actually very far from being worth it. I would say a captain with that gear would be a competitive choice at 140ish pts, which allows +50pts for all of Vulkan's buffs. Seems fairly well balanced IMO.

It does show how horribly useless and overcosted captains are though.

This! Its not that Vulkan is undercosted, its the fact that the Captain is overcosted that is the problem.

motyak wrote:

Doctadeth wrote:All SCs have a weak spot. You just have to find it. I killed Meph and an assault squad in a battle mission game. The only thing they killed. A whirlwind. If you charge the squad he's with, they have NO chance. Then get a SC in B2B contact.

Draigo is more problematic. But equally useless. Bog him down with a horde, or even better, shoot him with some nice AP1 weapons.

Its just the same as deathstar units, only its a model in this case.

Dude, mephy can't be in a squad, he's not an IC. You got robbed.

And its true, focus fire/attention can get rid of lots of SCs, but its easier when they are loners (like mephy) than ICs (like Draigo). Hell, the unit draigo is normally with (pallies) sees you normally put the S8+ Ap1-2 weaponry on him, so the men are saved.

meph can't join an assault squad sure, but I thought he could include an honor guad and as a non IC he can have an expensive bubble of protection and can't be singled out .. though it does lower majority toughness for wound purposes. I've also seen an expensive 2 lightning claws, 2 th/ss, a chapter banner and an IC sang priest in termi armor attached for fnp... it was alot of points but man did thatunit pack a punch

G00fySmiley wrote:
meph can't join an assault squad sure, but I thought he could include an honor guad and as a non IC he can have an expensive bubble of protection and can't be singled out.

He can't. Mephiston unlocks Honor Guard as a unit but obviously as he is not IC, he cannot join them. Anyone trying to talk someone into letting Mephiston as upgrade character for HG is trying to cheat.

To repeat Mephiston is always alone. He cannot be member of any unit and no IC can join him. He can always be singled out in CC and shooting

Wow, forgot to check this thread.

Alright, yes, Mephiston can get cover saves, but lacking any invul save whatsoever and having utterly no protection from a unit unlike other special characters who can join units (and also have eternal warrior, but admittedly lower T) - Mephiston wounds easily if you actually concentrate some good guns on him. Sure, you have to waste some anti-tank weapons on him, but the tradeoff is that you'll have just killed 250 points of the enemy's army right there.

Any good player can handle Mephiston, and any good BA player knows not to depend on him because he will let you down in numerous ways. He can get hammered with AP2 fire and believe it or not, he will at times emerge from cover to attack the enemy when necessary, because people will not be so desperate to keep him alive that they will sacrifice his usefulness, so cover saves can't always be figured in. Again, it is rather lame to try and lean on him to do all the dirty work. But crazy enough, some armies have enough anti-tank to spare to fire away at him. Lack of invul saves makes him completely open to attacks, it is however rather stupid to assault him. Shooting is definitely the way to go, although models like the swarmlord with lash-whip guards and Ghazzy in prophet of the WAAAGH mode will absolutely destroy him in all likelihood.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luide wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:
meph can't join an assault squad sure, but I thought he could include an honor guad and as a non IC he can have an expensive bubble of protection and can't be singled out.

He can't. Mephiston unlocks Honor Guard as a unit but obviously as he is not IC, he cannot join them. Anyone trying to talk someone into letting Mephiston as upgrade character for HG is trying to cheat.

To repeat Mephiston is always alone. He cannot be member of any unit and no IC can join him. He can always be singled out in CC and shooting

^and what you said. Anybody who is told Mephiston can go into a unit with other models is insane and has been deceived, and this is another highlight of Mephiston's vulnerability - if he gets shot at, no human shields.

dæl wrote:

insaniak wrote: it sort of sounds like you were.

Yeah, I would like to be able to match the overall level of power of an SC, like the amount of powers being cast.
But SCs should be unique in specific powers, abilities.

Apologise if my language was ambiguous. How often are people seeing Eldrad. He's almost an auto-pick, but if you could have a 3 powers Farseer without the pw, 3++, double up on spells, and deployment shenanigans, how much less prevalent would he be?

Ya, but then technically, he would still be in every list, he just wouldnt be called eldrad.

However, I do agree with your basic point. I hate seeing the current meta play for what it is. MSU EVREHTIN AND U NO TEKS NOTIN BOT SPLEENTR CAYNOWNS!!!! If we had the ability to make our own "SC," then I would be a much happier camper.

hmm i'll have to note that fo rnext time, that seemed obsurdly powerful, fortunatly as i plan on playign my marines as blood angels for the first time ever (as in first time playing my several thousand points of marines ever) i have my blood angels codex i see gues shonor guards don't work how i thought they did and that makes the sanguinar much less appealing sadly.

I don't see why the ic can't join him though . i mean it'd be kind of rediculously expentive but it looks like you could give him a IC liek a sang priest... nto that it'd be worth the points, but looking at BA codex pg 47 meph's entry i see no restrictiions to attachign an IC to him

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

To maximise Vulkan's ability we have to take short ranged weapons, flamer and melta, which really makes Vulkan a monobuild. Though he boosts hammernators you probably won't see them due to the cost of meching them. We also lose combat tactics.

Lets be honest, even without Vulkan, these weapons and units are some of the most popular in *ALL* SM armies, and stuff you'd take lots of anyway. C:SM armies in general, Vulkan or no, tend to load up on tons of melta and flamer weapons and TH/SS terminators are the preferred, and often considered undercosted, beatstick unit.

That's what makes Vulkan even more of a no-brainer. Because you don't need to make a mono-max-out list. You can take just about any list and throw him in, and he'll be of great benefit, because you're taking lots of flamers, melta's and quite possibly TH/SS termi's anyway.

Even non-Vulkan SM lists tend to have a dozen or more flamer/melta weapons, at say 5pts per weapon (relatively cheap) to make it Twin Linked, suddenly that's worth another 60pts that's going to greatly enhance the army's effectiveness likely more than a mere 60pts worth, not something that should be a mere 10pt upgrade (even if you accept the argument that Captains are overcosted, Vulkan is still very much undercosted). When you get armies that max that out with two or three dozen flamer/melta weapons, you're talking a significant increase in killing power for the army that's all that factoring that into Vulkan's points just doesn't work without making him more expensive than a Land Raider to properly reflect his value.



All around, he's poor game design, him and other characters like him. Not all SC's are bad by any means, but some are.

G00fySmiley wrote:
I don't see why the ic can't join him though . i mean it'd be kind of rediculously expentive but it looks like you could give him a IC liek a sang priest... nto that it'd be worth the points, but looking at BA codex pg 47 meph's entry i see no restrictiions to attachign an IC to him

You wouldn't find such rules in C:BA, because they're in BRB, page 48 to be exact. Independent characters can never join units that always consist of a single model (other IC's excluded).

Independent Characters may not join units that always consist of one model. Mephiston always consists of one models, so no IC may join him, ever. Should be in the exceptions of what ICs can join, in the BRB.

Personally, I don't get the fuss about special characters, seems like a historical thing to me. In magic, the equivalent of those are legends, who are characters with a story and some of them even get mentioned on other cards, rather than your generic creature. When you play them you don't have some sacrifical meat, but a character with actual fluff in front of you. Same in WH40k: It's just much more awesome if you field Ghazghkull Thrakka, the Beast of Argmageddon, Prophet of the Waaagh! rather than Goff Warlord /w Mega Armor, PK, BP, Big Shoota. Same for Vulcan He'Stan vs Salamander Captain or Mephiston vs Reincarnated Librarian.

The should use the blood bowl rule though. If both sides use the same Special Character, it simply doesn't show up

Jidmah wrote:

Personally, I don't get the fuss about special characters, seems like a historical thing to me. In magic, the equivalent of those are legends, who are characters with a story and some of them even get mentioned on other cards, rather than your generic creature. When you play them you don't have some sacrifical meat, but a character with actual fluff in front of you.

The issue is twofold. While often SC's are overcosted drek, sometimes the SC's are simply overdone and are overcapable for their points or offer a capability that is highly abuseable and/or doesn't scale properly, and are probably the best exemplars of awful game design 40k has to offer. Second, legendary heroes and mighty warlords don't appear all the time at every skirmish against every foe

Vaktathi wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

Personally, I don't get the fuss about special characters, seems like a historical thing to me. In magic, the equivalent of those are legends, who are characters with a story and some of them even get mentioned on other cards, rather than your generic creature. When you play them you don't have some sacrifical meat, but a character with actual fluff in front of you.

The issue is twofold. While often SC's are overcosted drek, sometimes the SC's are simply overdone and are overcapable for their points or offer a capability that is highly abuseable and/or doesn't scale properly, and are probably the best exemplars of awful game design 40k has to offer. Second, legendary heroes and mighty warlords don't appear all the time at every skirmish against every foe

Uriah Jacobs is so badass he can appear in twenty different locations fighting heretics while being dead. That is the true power of faith!

Luide wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:
I don't see why the ic can't join him though . i mean it'd be kind of rediculously expentive but it looks like you could give him a IC liek a sang priest... nto that it'd be worth the points, but looking at BA codex pg 47 meph's entry i see no restrictiions to attachign an IC to him

You wouldn't find such rules in C:BA, because they're in BRB, page 48 to be exact. Independent characters can never join units that always consist of a single model (other IC's excluded).

Jidmah wrote:Independent Characters may not join units that always consist of one model. Mephiston always consists of one models, so no IC may join him, ever. Should be in the exceptions of what ICs can join, in the BRB.

Personally, I don't get the fuss about special characters, seems like a historical thing to me. In magic, the equivalent of those are legends, who are characters with a story and some of them even get mentioned on other cards, rather than your generic creature. When you play them you don't have some sacrifical meat, but a character with actual fluff in front of you. Same in WH40k: It's just much more awesome if you field Ghazghkull Thrakka, the Beast of Argmageddon, Prophet of the Waaagh! rather than Goff Warlord /w Mega Armor, PK, BP, Big Shoota. Same for Vulcan He'Stan vs Salamander Captain or Mephiston vs Reincarnated Librarian.

The should use the blood bowl rule though. If both sides use the same Special Character, it simply doesn't show up

good to know, thanks i've been playing for a year and 4 months now and if the upcomg 6th actually happens i swear i won't have all of the 5th edition rules sunk in before then. though if he is within 6 " of a sang priest meph would still get the blood chalace coverrage for fnp right? . just curious for when i play against him. with my blood angels i plan to go with a librarian for chepness or gabriel seth

Yeah, any unit within 6". Librarians are the way to go though for BA, Seth...he has his uses but there are better models. I do think he's underappreciated.

Titan Atlas wrote:Yeah, any unit within 6". Librarians are the way to go though for BA, Seth...he has his uses but there are better models. I do think he's underappreciated.

I don't want a big overpowered list i want something fun to play i think seth meets that, his rule of geting a str 4 attack back on nay 1 is pretty cool and he's cheap points wise even though the str 8 attacksaren't power weapons at least he has rending .. plus i like the actual look of the model so having buoght it i'd want to use it

He's really a fun guy, and I like him. I also like Dante, but I do feel weird when I field Mephiston. It was called a noob crutch when I was using him, and it's sorta true. Seth would be uber fun in a unit of HG or something, and then you would obviously want them in a transport, for clear reasons.

I think that's my only problem with him, he is pretty worthwhile as a character but can't keep up with other fast characters like Mephy, Dante, and Astorath.

I like Dante, but even if I was playing Blood Angels I would never use his magic mask. This is 40k, not Fantasy.

haha, his mask is hilarious, although I doubt I'll get to make much use very often of his death mask ability unless I faced more armies with lower leadership more often

Titan Atlas wrote:haha, his mask is hilarious, although I doubt I'll get to make much use very often of his death mask ability unless I faced more armies with lower leadership more often

most armies with low Ld you usually don't need it on anyway.

yeah, pretty much lol, although it'll help just in case to prevent a nasty retaliation by reducing WS to 1

Vaktathi wrote:The issue is twofold. While often SC's are overcosted drek, sometimes the SC's are simply overdone and are overcapable for their points or offer a capability that is highly abuseable and/or doesn't scale properly, and are probably the best exemplars of awful game design 40k has to offer.

Which is actually exactly the same as in magic. Legends sometimes get to be overpowered/extremely abusable rules because they can only be used once at any given time. Other simply suck.
If any characters are actually overpowered(which I doubt, even considering the two most argued about in this thread), that's not a problem of special characters. Long fangs and purifiers aren't special characters either

Second, legendary heroes and mighty warlords don't appear all the time at every skirmish against every foe

I see that tossed around a lot. So you would really prefer blank, generic and story-less Goff Warlords, Reincarnated Librarians, Salamander Chapter Masters Captains, Lord Comissars from Armageddon or High Seers of Ulthwé over "Ghazghkull Thrakka", "Mephiston", "Vulcan He'stan", "Yarrik" or "Eldrad Ulthran", which each have stories to tell, appear in novels and maybe get to face off against their eternal arch-enemy across the board? Personally, I think fielding such a legendary hero is much more fun than fielding an overcosted generic something.

And a skirmish is only unimportant if you make it so. Besides that, even Draigo doesn't just teleport in to kill the highest demon princes and leave immediately after, he will be slaughtering rather unimportant "heretical" guardsmen from time to time, too.

Vulkan He'stan never has been and probably never will be Chapter Master.

Mea culpa, got him mixed up with Pedro Kantor. He is a captain, of course.

Since I'm in nitpicking TFG mode already: he WAS a Captain.

Which is largely irrelevant, as his equivalent would still be a captain, ruleswise.

Jidmah wrote:Which is largely irrelevant, as his equivalent would still be a captain, ruleswise.

It's important to make the distinction though, as Vulkan arguably doesn't unlock a Command Squad, as he's not a Captain.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Which is largely irrelevant, as his equivalent would still be a captain, ruleswise.

It's important to make the distinction though, as Vulkan arguably doesn't unlock a Command Squad, as he's not a Captain.

You are correct.

Think about this my army cannot be fielded without a special character does this mean i should be able to use him just to appease my opponent.

Ohh and no one can call Belial OP.

captain collius wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Which is largely irrelevant, as his equivalent would still be a captain, ruleswise.

It's important to make the distinction though, as Vulkan arguably doesn't unlock a Command Squad, as he's not a Captain.

You are correct.

Think about this my army cannot be fielded without a special character does this mean i should be able to use him just to appease my opponent.

Ohh and no one can call Belial OP.

I don't think anyone could begrudge you using Belial or Sammael as they are needed to create quite fluffy lists, the problem I have is seeing the likes of Shrike in a Ultramarines army because you can spam fleeting Assault Termies, or Fateweaver in an army of just Nurgle Deamons.

Belial is probably the most generic SC in the game.

Also, if it wasn't for Fateweaver right now Daemons wouldn't even show up to play half the time, it's bad enough as is for daemons players.

Their set back tends to be their cost.
I had a guy last night who in a 1500 list had two SC, could only field 2 troops a doom sycth, night scythe and a lychguard.
Granted he tabled me.
But it was a kill point game. It all ends up with giving you fun stull to do with but high cost.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Belial is probably the most generic SC in the game.

Also, if it wasn't for Fateweaver right now Daemons wouldn't even show up to play half the time, it's bad enough as is for daemons players.

This would imply that all the other Gods SCs are not fit for purpose. The Khorne one should be the killiest thing this side of a titan, I doubt it is otherwise people would play him. Fateweaver I would rather see in a mixed list rather than Fateweaver + all Nurgle. But then I value fluff.

dæl wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Belial is probably the most generic SC in the game.

Also, if it wasn't for Fateweaver right now Daemons wouldn't even show up to play half the time, it's bad enough as is for daemons players.

This would imply that all the other Gods SCs are not fit for purpose. The Khorne one should be the killiest thing this side of a titan, I doubt it is otherwise people would play him. Fateweaver I would rather see in a mixed list rather than Fateweaver + all Nurgle. But then I value fluff.

As a player of daemons, none of them aren't worth

Skarbrand is completely worthless, first off he loses wings, thus reducing him to a 12 assault range unlike the standard bloodthirsters 18", second he buffs up the ENEMY units as well (which is bad), he gains breath of chaos, +1 strength and attack on the standard bloodthirster, but the problem is all units in 24" gain a reroll (which can be bad) and the loss of the 6" of movement hurts him more than anything else.

Kugath does well with what he has, he can murder infantry very well, but he's far more expensive than the standard GD of nurgle, not to mention he's able to murder infantry very well like the rest of the entire army, in a meched up enviroment he's not good enough. Not to mention some of the rules for the nurgles stuff is worthless (S2 AP - Aura of Decay? Really now!?)

There's no Slaanesh SC GD

The heralds are a mix of usefulness, Skulltaker is perhaps the second most used, as he's actually pretty good (but he's not tank killy enough), and cheap enough to warrant a small place. No real use for the other heralds.

The main issue to be had is that daemons have no effective anti-tank EXCEPT their HQ slots (which is bad!) So most of the time it's used on 2-4 heralds of Tzeentch for bolts of change, fateweaver grants this, and a rerollable buff for the entire units nearby that grant them a far better save than the 5++ they often get as they are being shot up piecemeal.

If there was a way for things to hit vehicles better than on a 4+ or a 6 in melee, the other GD's might prove to be far more useful, as it is, you need bolts of change and fateweaver provides that, and a far better save for units nearby.

Jidmah wrote:
If any characters are actually overpowered(which I doubt, even considering the two most argued about in this thread), that's not a problem of special characters. Long fangs and purifiers aren't special characters either

I completely agree, and I noted as much earlier that such is not limited to SC's, however the issues with some SC's are a bit more acute as some can affect the entire army, which is different than simply being undercosted or having a broken combat rule.

I see that tossed around a lot. So you would really prefer blank, generic and story-less Goff Warlords, Reincarnated Librarians, Salamander Chapter Masters Captains, Lord Comissars from Armageddon or High Seers of Ulthwé over "Ghazghkull Thrakka", "Mephiston", "Vulcan He'stan", "Yarrik" or "Eldrad Ulthran", which each have stories to tell, appear in novels and maybe get to face off against their eternal arch-enemy across the board? Personally, I think fielding such a legendary hero is much more fun than fielding an overcosted generic something.

I'd rather field heroes of my own design and face those of my opponent really, those whose stories I can create rather than those who already have stories and which often may be put in nonsensical situation. Ghazkull fights on Armageddon against the Imperial Guard and occaisionally the Space Marines, he's not facing, and never has faced, the Tau or Warmaster Abaddon for example.


Likewise, I have a hard time seeing Vulkan He'Stan as anything but a powergamey crutch, much less a mighty hero of the Imperium, given how casually and how often he is (was before many jumped to Space Wolves) fielded by anyone and everyone. Any semblance of cool factor in that regard was destroyed in very short order. I've never seen anyone field him for his fluff or background, he's there because he makes all their special weapons significantly more effective and their deathstar killier. I think I've seen him in Salamanders green...once? Maybe twice? Both armies built around abusing his special rules as much as possible and not longtime sallies players.

And a skirmish is only unimportant if you make it so. Besides that, even Draigo doesn't just teleport in to kill the highest demon princes and leave immediately after, he will be slaughtering rather unimportant "heretical" guardsmen from time to time, too.

I doubt it, given that he's apparently sucked back into the warp after each battle or whatnot, and I doubt he'd remain behind to do that, that's for others and orbital bombardments. I certainly doubt he's setting up for a pitched battle against the Imperial Guard like I so often see him

i would argue that many of the older codicies simply lack good SC's
Templars- No one (that i have seen)
Tau-Never seen one
Eldar-Eldrad (never see yriel or phoenix lords)
DA-Sammael Belial (a few use Azrael and Ezekial)
Orks-Ghazghkul sp? (the rest are only used if they wanna have fun)
CSM-only for fun games
Deamons- Fateweaver Skulltaker (the rest are meh)

then when you get to 5E codicies
SM:Shrike Vulkan Telion lysander
IG: Marbo Al'Rahem Yarrick Straken (am i missing anyone)
SW:Njal Logan Arjac Canis Bjorn
Nids: Doom and Swarmlord
Blood Angels: Astorath Mephiston Lemartes Dante Gabriel Seth
DE: Duke Siliscus, Baron Sathonyx, Lelith, i'm sure there are others
GK(the abuse): Coteaz Draigo Crowe Mordrak Thrawn others
SOB: Uriah and Celestine
Necrons: Imotekh Zahndrekh Obryon Szeras Trayzn

Notice a pattern?

I wouldn't mind seeing a rule where if you kill one of these all encompassing SCs you get an extra KP. I mean killing the single most powerful psyker the Eldar race has to offer should be slightly more tactically significant then routing a dozen grots.

It also might be cool to have a Bjorn like rule for special characters where if they go down their body becomes an objective that only your opponent could benefit from.

SOB: Uriah and Celestine

And kyranov. He's just not as good as the other two, but still folds ahead of the normal IC's.

Helbig wrote:I It also might be cool to have a Bjorn like rule for special characters where if they go down their body becomes an objective that only your opponent could benefit from.

Maybe not this, but I'd like to see something along those lines... you can contest your fallen HQ "corpse" (or remove him with an apothecary or the like) but the enemy can swipe the corpse for an extra KP and/or and extra objective.

I suppose after giving out about using special characters as a different chapter I should admit my Raven Guard list i'm putting together includes Telion, but as its RG it has a couple of scout squads, and he seems to fit. So I guess I'm kind of guilty of hypocrisy. It also includes Korvydae, so as I can load up on assault squads as well as speeders, would I still take him if he restricted access to other parts of the codex, say 0-1 tanks with combined armour 33 or over. Yes, but its not going to be a super competitive list, it's not meant to be. Would I prefer it if taking a captain with a jump pack unlocked assault squads, absolutely, because even with Korvydae coming from RG I'd still rather build my own character.

@ZebioLizard2 the Aura of Decay seems like it might be useful if it were board wide and happened each of your turns.

@ZebioLizard2 the Aura of Decay seems like it might be useful if it were board wide and happened each of your turns.

That it would, but as it is, it's weaker than the Chaos Space Marine Codex version. (S3), both 6" ranges and can be used in combat.

So apparently a Greater Deamon of Nurgle is Weaker and Less toxic than a standard plague sorcerer/lord.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

SOB: Uriah and Celestine

And kyranov. He's just not as good as the other two, but still folds ahead of the normal IC's.

Sorrya and as blanket statement i listed those i have noticed if you wanna iclude anyone else go ahead

captain collius wrote:Orks-Ghazghkul sp? (the rest are only used if they wanna have fun)

With two L, but otherwise nailed it

Mad Doc Grotznik, Ol'Zogwort, Snikrot and Wazzdakka Gutzmek see a fair amount of play, too, and two of those don't even have official models. Zagstrukk and Badruk simply lose out because their units aren't exactly great, the models themselves, in a vacuum. are.

using Snikrot with Ghazghkull makes Ghazzy even more epic, not to mention Snikrot and his mob of Kommandos is fun as well