Exactly what it sounds like. Between the Forces of Chaos, the Tyranid Swarms, the Ork WAAAHG!s, and the awakening Necrons, all the big guns in the Imperium don't seem to be enough. How, in the big picture, can the Imperium possibly hope to survive?
As has been discussed many times before: it probably can't. Sooner or later, the Imperium will start collapsing under its own weight, if it isn't already doing so in the 41st millennium. The biggest threat to mankind is itself.
The question is not "How can we win?" It's "How can we lose?" We have the unstoppable Angels of Death, plus countless of the Galaxy's finest soldiers. Mankind cannot fail it is our destiny.
The Imperium of Man will purge the galaxy of all injustice and continue our existence and if failing that, go down banner held high and a chainsword in hand, till the last.
Bloody Adair wrote: By making (temporary) allies with the Orks and then after all other threats are managable,
crump them too!
Actually, that may work. Convince all the Ork clans/tribes/warbands, or at least a large portion of them, that by aligning themselves with the Imperium, they will have as much conflict and warfare as possible.
There is one flaw. Orks naturally congregate in WAAAGH!s. How do you keep them from going one, massive, united WAAAAGH! once they've outlived their usefulness?
The Imperium of Man is the largest most powerful force in the galaxy and it survived half of it turning on the other in the HH, also NO ONE beats the Imperial forces in war of attrition, and that is exactly what it will take to bring IoM down.
How can we win? Easy get on the defensive and let the heretics and xenos commit suicide by charging into the mighty defenders of the rightful rulers of the galaxy.
FOR THE EMPEROR EVER ONWARD!!!
Yori wrote:The Imperium of Man is the largest most powerful force in the galaxy and it survived half of it turning on the other in the HH, also NO ONE beats the Imperial forces in war of attrition, and that is exactly what it will take to bring IoM down.
How can we win? Easy get on the defensive and let the heretics and xenos commit suicide by charging into the mighty defenders of the rightful rulers of the galaxy.
FOR THE EMPEROR EVER ONWARD!!!
Riiiight...
Orks, Nids... Crons, when they fully awaken, Daemons, considering much of that half is still out there, and more and more have turned over the ages...
Yori wrote:The Imperium of Man is the largest most powerful force in the galaxy and it survived half of it turning on the other in the HH, also NO ONE beats the Imperial forces in war of attrition, and that is exactly what it will take to bring IoM down.
How can we win? Easy get on the defensive and let the heretics and xenos commit suicide by charging into the mighty defenders of the rightful rulers of the galaxy.
FOR THE EMPEROR EVER ONWARD!!!
Riiiight...
Orks, Nids... Crons, when they fully awaken, Daemons, considering much of that half is still out there, and more and more have turned over the ages...
Have I missed anyone?
A lot of stuff, but don't worry we can handle this gak. I mean its been 40 thousand years of it and humanity has done fine (at least in the majority which is over 500 trillion). Worse case scenario every one gets armed and joins the fight, who the feth is gonna go after 500 trillion screaming fanatics armed with... well EVERYTHING they can get their hands on.
Easy. By starting to use the only resource that's of any real value in interstellar warfare.
Brainpower. Of course, with independent thought and any kind of progress in technology pretty much outlawed that'd require some sort of social restructuring of the Imperium - a Renaissance of ideological and scientific progress. Why, that's completely unheard of in the history of Mankind...
(cue The Normandy Reborn theme) The Emperor Reborn - who's going to stand against the Imperium? No one! With the Emperor at our head, no one, not space bugs, not space communists, not magic mushrooms, not even space undead can stop us! Even space elves will bow before us!
(cue The Normandy Reborn theme)
The Emperor Reborn - who's going to stand against the Imperium? No one! With the Emperor at our head, no one, not space bugs, not space communists, not magic mushrooms, not even space undead can stop us! Even space elves will bow before us!
I'm in a patriotic mood - normally I'm more respectful to other Old One descended/created races like Orks and Eldar.
Space communists/blue-skinned fish faces - not so much. Except for Farsight - HE IS AWESOME! Not as much as the Emperor and the Primarchs. No else one comes close.
(cue Imperial March from Star Wars)
Take that, space popes!
I'm in a patriotic mood - normally I'm more respectful to other Old One descended/created races like Orks and Eldar.
Space communists/blue-skinned fish faces - not so much. Except for Farsight - HE IS AWESOME! Not as much as the Emperor and the Primarchs. No else one comes close.
(cue Imperial March from Star Wars)
Take that, space popes!
Well, Farsight hasn't royally fethed up yet, AFAIK. For all of their Superman posterboy, the-very-best-humanity-has-to-offer-image, the Primarchs, and the Emprah as well, IMO, all had their share of gaffs and blunders, but that's a topic for another thread.
How about some kind of superweapon, such as the one presented in the Space Marine game? Granted, what it ended up as was far from how it was designed, but if I recall, the guy actually got the technology to work before he was possessed.
For those who still plan on playing the game, I have spoiler-buttoned the details of that tech:
Spoiler:
IIRC, he managed to create a device that could cause the heads of assorted xenos species to explode with an effective radius encompassing an entire planet.
If the 'umies could pull something like that out of their bums, I think that'd be their closest shot at victory.
Ever heard of the story of Pandora's box? Remembering who you are and what your past is made of is important. History is important because it defines us. We are worth something not because of material power, intelligence, or simply because you and I exist. We survive not only because of instinct, but because our ancestors have made sacrifices, they have fought nature, disease, and against each other so that their descendants will have their rightful places in this world. And out of all this capability for violence, and harshness, we not only thrived, but out of this, heroes were made.
Notice how young people always gravitate towards heroes? Why do they do that? Not just because they look and sound awesome. It is entirely within the realm of possibility that they can grow up to be heroes. We give our young this hope so that one day, they too can have even the slightest measure of our past. Out of our young is our future, and we sacrifice for them just like our fathers and mothers have sacrificed for us. And with them, new heroes are made.
We should not give in to hopelessness. It is our greatest ally. We owe it to our ancestors to survive, to live, and fight for survival another day. And that is why even in a science fiction game like 40k, humanity fights on. But don't forget that just because this is what they do in warhammer, that it doesn't apply to reality. After all, where else did those guys at GW get it from?
How about some kind of superweapon, such as the one presented in the Space Marine game? Granted, what it ended up as was far from how it was designed, but if I recall, the guy actually got the technology to work before he was possessed.
For those who still plan on playing the game, I have spoiler-buttoned the details of that tech:
Spoiler:
IIRC, he managed to create a device that could cause the heads of assorted xenos species to explode with an effective radius encompassing an entire planet.
If the 'umies could pull something like that out of their bums, I think that'd be their closest shot at victory.
The Emperor has one: the Imperial Webway. 'Course, He'll have to start from scratch again, but if the Imperium gains access to the Webway, the balance of power switches drastically. Imagine: the vast fleets and numerous soldiers of the Imperium arriving on time where they're needed. ***Where are your Ethereals now, Tau?***
LumenPraebeo wrote:Ever heard of the story of Pandora's box? Remembering who you are and what your past is made of is important. History is important because it defines us. We are worth something not because of material power, intelligence, or simply because you and I exist. We survive not only because of instinct, but because our ancestors have made sacrifices, they have fought nature, disease, and against each other so that their descendants will have their rightful places in this world. And out of all this capability for violence, and harshness, we not only thrived, but out of this, heroes were made.
Notice how young people always gravitate towards heroes? Why do they do that? Not just because they look and sound awesome. It is entirely within the realm of possibility that they can grow up to be heroes. We give our young this hope so that one day, they too can have even the slightest measure of our past. Out of our young is our future, and we sacrifice for them just like our fathers and mothers have sacrificed for us. And with them, new heroes are made.
We should not give in to hopelessness. It is our greatest ally. We owe it to our ancestors to survive, to live, and fight for survival another day. And that is why even in a science fiction game like 40k, humanity fights on. But don't forget that just because this is what they do in warhammer, that it doesn't apply to reality. After all, where else did those guys at GW get it from?
Hm. Noted. I always thought of 40k as a comentary on utilitarianism. In modern society, genocide is a horrible, hated act, and instantly conjures thoughts of the very worst of humanity, the most evil, heartless people to walk this earth. Yet, in the 41st millennium, it's more than a virtue; exterminatus is a NECESSITY. Without it, untold horrors would have long ago consumed mankind.
It makes me think; how far is a civilization willing to go when the goal is simple survival? Can you even call it a civilization anymore? In terms of the vast, vast majority of humans, things like art, culture, and the normal trappings of a civilization are meaningless. There is religion, yes, but even cave men had that. To me, when I think of the Imperium, I think them most alike to the Tyranids. Trillions upon untold trillions of near-meaningless units, working towards a singular goal of survival.
So, Lumen, I'd say you're right, but you haven't seen the full picture. 40k is humanity magnified. It presents us at the very greatest of what we can accomplish, the amazing feats of strength, courage, and ability that only the most trying times can conjure. But it also shows our worst, the terrible, horrible deeds and creations humanity can spawn when the conditions are correct.
LumenPraebeo wrote:Ever heard of the story of Pandora's box? Remembering who you are and what your past is made of is important. History is important because it defines us. We are worth something not because of material power, intelligence, or simply because you and I exist. We survive not only because of instinct, but because our ancestors have made sacrifices, they have fought nature, disease, and against each other so that their descendants will have their rightful places in this world. And out of all this capability for violence, and harshness, we not only thrived, but out of this, heroes were made.
Notice how young people always gravitate towards heroes? Why do they do that? Not just because they look and sound awesome. It is entirely within the realm of possibility that they can grow up to be heroes. We give our young this hope so that one day, they too can have even the slightest measure of our past. Out of our young is our future, and we sacrifice for them just like our fathers and mothers have sacrificed for us. And with them, new heroes are made.
We should not give in to hopelessness. It is our greatest ally. We owe it to our ancestors to survive, to live, and fight for survival another day. And that is why even in a science fiction game like 40k, humanity fights on. But don't forget that just because this is what they do in warhammer, that it doesn't apply to reality. After all, where else did those guys at GW get it from?
Dark Angel, you have won this Blood Raven's respect and admiration. EXALTED!
Remember the true meaning of the Imperial Eagle every Imperial wears on their armor, from the chestplates of the mighty Adeptus Astartes, to the flak armor of the proud Imperial Guard; not the double-headed empire of the Administratum and the Adeptus Mechanicus, but we, the Human race, looking back to our distant past and the lessons and traditions inherited from our ancestors and fallen heroes, and looking forward to the glorious future our Emperor has foreseen and prepares for us.
***GLORY TO THE EMPEROR! GLORY TO THE IMPERIUM! GLORY TO THE HUMAN RACE!***
TermiesInARaider wrote: In modern society, genocide is a horrible, hated act, and instantly conjures thoughts of the very worst of humanity, the most evil, heartless people to walk this earth. Yet, in the 41st millennium, it's more than a virtue; exterminatus is a NECESSITY. Without it, untold horrors would have long ago consumed mankind.
Not completely. I've talked to my Japanese grandmother, who lived through WWII as a child. She told me that while she and her generation will never forgive America for what they did, the nevertheless accept that it had to be done. That's why she always tells me never forget who I am - I may be a half-blood, but all the same, never forget who I am. We owe it to everyone who died in those last days of the war.
If we could just hold the lines and hope to the emperor that the orks NEVER unite as one waagh,the necrons wake late and the hive fleets scattered, The emperor may save us all and resurrect... If only though...
TermiesInARaider wrote: In modern society, genocide is a horrible, hated act, and instantly conjures thoughts of the very worst of humanity, the most evil, heartless people to walk this earth. Yet, in the 41st millennium, it's more than a virtue; exterminatus is a NECESSITY. Without it, untold horrors would have long ago consumed mankind.
Not completely. I've talked to my Japanese grandmother, who lived through WWII as a child. She told me that while she and her generation will never forgive America for what they did, the nevertheless accept that it had to be done. That's why she always tells me never forget who I am - I may be a half-blood, but all the same, never forget who I am. We owe it to everyone who died in those last days of the war.
One could say we come from a similar place; my grandfather was on Okinawa when Hiroshima was bombed, and he had similar feelings. Things are not always simple. But that leads to my point. In the 41st millennium, they have to be. It's the only way we'd survive. My grandfather, and your grandmother, would likely be shot by their Commissars for saying such things.
TermiesInARaider wrote: In modern society, genocide is a horrible, hated act, and instantly conjures thoughts of the very worst of humanity, the most evil, heartless people to walk this earth. Yet, in the 41st millennium, it's more than a virtue; exterminatus is a NECESSITY. Without it, untold horrors would have long ago consumed mankind.
Not completely. I've talked to my Japanese grandmother, who lived through WWII as a child. She told me that while she and her generation will never forgive America for what they did, the nevertheless accept that it had to be done. That's why she always tells me never forget who I am - I may be a half-blood, but all the same, never forget who I am. We owe it to everyone who died in those last days of the war.
One could say we come from a similar place; my grandfather was on Okinawa when Hiroshima was bombed, and he had similar feelings. Things are not always simple. But that leads to my point. In the 41st millennium, they have to be. It's the only way we'd survive. My grandfather, and your grandmother, would likely be shot by their Commissars for saying such things.
Yeah, that's true. She hates Tojo and his fellow ultra-nationalists - they turned the noble Japanese Empire into a monstrosity and ultimately led to its downfall. Don't get her wrong, though, she is a nationalist. She (and has influenced me into the same way of thinking) believes that while Japan should remain an ally of America, we should take a dominant military role in the Far East proportionate to our dominant economy - similar to the British, who are the dominant power in Europe. Rebuilding the giant empire of WWII would be a mistake - it was a catastrophic mistake to build it in the beginning - but Japan should take its place. As the richest nation in the Far East, we have a responsibility - especially now that America's power is waning due to economic troubles, social problems at home, squabbles in the Middle East among others, no disrespect intended, of course.
As for 40k, yes, probably someplace deep down in an Inquisitor's soul, something screams out against everything they do. But they have to do it, for who else can? They take on the burden that would otherwise destroy everything. That's why radicals are such a disgrace. They are no better than what they claim to fight against.
Joey wrote:Efficiency, discipline, hard work.
The Anglo-Saxon way
If... I didn't know better, that sounded vaguely prejudiced. :/ Please, try to stay on topic.
If you regard working hard and being efficient as "prejudiced" then I pity your culture.
I was more refering to the Anglo-Saxon way, bit. I know plenty of hard working and efficient people. Anglo-saxon is a descriptor that isn't really relevant. :/
Joey wrote:Efficiency, discipline, hard work.
The Anglo-Saxon way
If... I didn't know better, that sounded vaguely prejudiced. :/ Please, try to stay on topic.
If you regard working hard and being efficient as "prejudiced" then I pity your culture.
I was more refering to the Anglo-Saxon way, bit. I know plenty of hard working and efficient people. Anglo-saxon is a descriptor that isn't really relevant. :/
*looks at GDP/capita of Anglo-Saxon countries*
*looks at GDP/capita of non Anglo-Saxon countries*
Yeah I stand by what I said. Some people work harder and more effectively than others. You're being dense in order to make me look like a racist.
Joey wrote:Efficiency, discipline, hard work. The Anglo-Saxon way
If... I didn't know better, that sounded vaguely prejudiced. :/ Please, try to stay on topic.
If you regard working hard and being efficient as "prejudiced" then I pity your culture.
I was more refering to the Anglo-Saxon way, bit. I know plenty of hard working and efficient people. Anglo-saxon is a descriptor that isn't really relevant. :/
*looks at GDP/capita of Anglo-Saxon countries* *looks at GDP/capita of non Anglo-Saxon countries* Yeah I stand by what I said. Some people work harder and more effectively than others. You're being dense in order to make me look like a racist.
Let's see... Israel. Japan. Germany. France. Spain. Anyone I'm missing? Oh, right. The good ol' USA. Lost a bit of her luster, sure, but she's still the most powerful cultural, political, military, and economic force on the planet earth. Built from immigrants since her inception, continuing to this day, as it was designed to be.
Again, please. Stay on topic. Global economics has nothing to do with how the Imperium of Man would ever defeat it's many enemies.
The Imperium is too large to protect itself at the moment. It needs to consolidate it's population and resources.
In other words take ti's toys and go home, pull as much of it's population and military into as small a space as it can and still survive. Le the rest wither (or in areas where the Tyranids are expanding, just exterminus the hell out of it). Let the rest of the galaxy kill each other for a while and wait out the storm behind the best defences that can be built.
Once the storm has broken, then expand again, but do it logically and in a sustainable fashion. Make each new world/system a net gain in resources first, then move on to the next one.
You're missing the point. This is a universe where the darker powers lurk everywhere, where they're intrinsically bound to human nature. There is no 'victory', there is no end to the conflict possible. The Imperium can only hope to survive to fight on, mitigate the damage such that their war machine remains intact.
Oh sure, mankind has lots of enemies but :
Orks, nids, necron and chaos will basically kill everyone they see,
Orks and chaos will even fight each other.
Tau is a small emperie, nothing the size of the IOM.
Dark Eldar are just pirates and
Normal Eldar are a small treat, with craftworlds being destroyed every day.
And now that i have insulted 70% of dakka members...
---FOR THE EMPEROR!!!---
Simply put, you can't, so it's best to go down in a blaze of glory. When it's clear that the tide coming in is insurmountable, make sure to take every last xeno and/or heretic you can down with you. When they come knocking on Terra, make sure that every single inch they cross through the solar system will cost them. And when Terra finally falls under the press of bodies, detonate it in one last fit of pique to make sure that if you can't have it, nobody else can. That's the whole point of Warhammer, the Imperium is going to die, but it's sure as hell not going to go down quietly.
Even if the Emperor where resurrected it would at best stabilize and preserve the Imperium, not allow it to conquer the galaxy again. the IOM is just too large for the emperor to reform quickly, hell he would have to sit around for a century or two just to talk to the mechanicus and explain how the stuff they use everyday works. the IOM is not meant to win it is meant to soldier on or go down fighting.
A final victory isn't part of the "40k package" so maybe we have to just survive?
But if it was, Mankind would survive. Because us generalists will beat specialists in the long run.
Others get boni , Humans prevail with hard work.
Look at it this way. Humans got the numbers to take losses without breaking, they got the ferocity to retaliate at a level that nearly autokills whole civilizations and they got the will to survive this. So basically most opponents are screwed and just unaware of their doom. Let us keep them thinking they stand a chance. Do we really need to care for their arrogance, their false hopes, their illusions of humans as easy prey?
I say let them believe whatever they want.
Because , this Galaxy belongs to the Emperor and my trusty chainsword will ensure they all learn to accept this truth. It matters not how they die under the boots of the IG or in a fiery bath of holy promethium . All that matters is the inevitable victory of the forces of the Imperium , slow and steady. Were not in a hurry....
1hadhq wrote:A final victory isn't part of the "40k package" so maybe we have to just survive?
But if it was, Mankind would survive. Because us generalists will beat specialists in the long run.
Others get boni , Humans prevail with hard work.
Look at it this way. Humans got the numbers to take losses without breaking, they got the ferocity to retaliate at a level that nearly autokills whole civilizations and they got the will to survive this. So basically most opponents are screwed and just unaware of their doom. Let us keep them thinking they stand a chance. Do we really need to care for their arrogance, their false hopes, their illusions of humans as easy prey?
I say let them believe whatever they want.
Because , this Galaxy belongs to the Emperor and my trusty chainsword will ensure they all learn to accept this truth. It matters not how they die under the boots of the IG or in a fiery bath of holy promethium . All that matters is the inevitable victory of the forces of the Imperium , slow and steady. Were not in a hurry....
Until the main body of the Tyranids arrives and you find out "Sir there's at least a billion of them for every lasgun cell." "Only a billion? Bring in the ordinance then!" "Sir, I was talking about the hive ships." "Oh...bugger..."
Yes the situation is hard for now as Imperium has expanded a little to far then it has army's to defend. But this same thing happened before and Imeprium still endures. And we stil lahve our triumph card we didn't use: reincarnation of the Emperor and return of the Primarchs, when that happened nothing could stand in our way.
If there is one thing I learned about Humanity in my 22 years of living is that we are good in one thing - we know how to fight. No matter if Ork are better warriors, Elar are faster, Tyranid more numerous and Tau or Necrons advanced - we have always find a way to defeat our enemies and we shall continue to do so unti lthe end of time itself.
Until the main body of the Tyranids arrives and you find out "Sir there's at least a billion of them for every lasgun cell." "Only a billion? Bring in the ordinance then!" "Sir, I was talking about the hive ships." "Oh...bugger..."
The size of the "main body" of the Tyranids isn't as great as you seem to think.
Plus, nids have to oppose everyone... and with our new newcron support in this cause, how can we fail?
Sure the bugs aren't used to have their asses kicked out of a Galaxy. But there is always a first time.
TermiesInARaider wrote:Exactly what it sounds like. Between the Forces of Chaos, the Tyranid Swarms, the Ork WAAAHG!s, and the awakening Necrons, all the big guns in the Imperium don't seem to be enough. How, in the big picture, can the Imperium possibly hope to survive?
You can't.
That's kind of the point
The whole setting is basically Humanity's Famous Last Stand, stuck in a timewarp
All very heroic and so on, but the endless stalemate gets a bit dull. I'd be all for the Imperium shattering into several smaller human empires instead of trying to hold together a huge empire beyond their means or grasp.
The Roman empire had the same issue. If they'd stayed smaller, they wouldn't have gotten so overextended, and wouldn't have collapsed as easily.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:A final victory isn't part of the "40k package" so maybe we have to just survive?
But if it was, orks would survive. Because us generalists will beat specialists in the long run.
Others get boni , orks prevail with hard waaagh!.
Look at it this way. orks got the numbers to take losses without breaking, they got the ferocity to retaliate at a level that nearly autokills whole civilizations and they got the will to survive this. So basically most humans are screwed and just unaware of their doom. Let us keep them thinking they stand a chance. Do we really need to care for their arrogance, their false hopes, their illusions of survivability? '
I say let them believe whatever they want.
Because , this Galaxy belongs to gork and Mork and my trusty choppa will ensure they all learn to accept this truth. It matters not how they die under the boots of the or in a fiery bath of da burna boyz . All that matters is the inevitable victory of the forces of the , slow and steady. Were not in a hurry....
TermiesInARaider wrote:
Let's see... Israel. Japan. Germany. France. Spain. Anyone I'm missing? Oh, right. The good ol' USA. Lost a bit of her luster, sure, but she's still the most powerful cultural, political, military, and economic force on the planet earth. Built from immigrants since her inception, continuing to this day, as it was designed to be.
Again, please. Stay on topic. Global economics has nothing to do with how the Imperium of Man would ever defeat it's many enemies.
The USA is an Anglo-Saxon country.
Pretty much everywhere in Europe outside of the Germanic north is currently in the gak. Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal...lack of efficiency.
Per ardua ad astra
The whole setting is basically Humanity's Famous Last Stand, stuck in a timewarp
But .. it is sooo... cinematic.
Ascalam wrote:
All very heroic and so on, but the endless stalemate gets a bit dull. I'd be all for the Imperium shattering into several smaller human empires instead of trying to hold together a huge empire beyond their means or grasp.
Shattered Empires are nice on a planetary scale. They are dead husks with ruins on top of them in 40k.
Why ? Because humans got everyones attention. Does anyone care for sleepy Tomb-worlds or drifting Craftworlds?
The focus of GW on humans keeps said humans on the radar. Too much unwanted attention for shattered bits of a former empire.
Well done. Its a interesting fix :
Spoiler:
But if it was, orks would survive. Because us generalists will beat specialists in the long run.
Others get boni , orks prevail with hard waaagh!.
Look at it this way. orks got the numbers to take losses without breaking, they got the ferocity to retaliate at a level that nearly autokills whole civilizations and they got the will to survive this. So basically most humans are screwed and just unaware of their doom. Let us keep them thinking they stand a chance. Do we really need to care for their arrogance, their false hopes, their illusions of survivability? '
I say let them believe whatever they want.
Because , this Galaxy belongs to gork and Mork and my trusty choppa will ensure they all learn to accept this truth. It matters not how they die under the boots of the or in a fiery bath of da burna boyz . All that matters is the inevitable victory of the forces of the , slow and steady. Were not in a hurry....
May I point to the thing a certain company has with 'cinematics' ?
There, the main actor in their setting is the IoM, aka cptn Kirk, and the rest is a bunch of red-shirts.
You know which fate awaits those in red..
TermiesInARaider wrote:
Let's see... Israel. Japan. Germany. France. Spain. Anyone I'm missing? Oh, right. The good ol' USA. Lost a bit of her luster, sure, but she's still the most powerful cultural, political, military, and economic force on the planet earth. Built from immigrants since her inception, continuing to this day, as it was designed to be.
Again, please. Stay on topic. Global economics has nothing to do with how the Imperium of Man would ever defeat it's many enemies.
The USA is an Anglo-Saxon country.
Pretty much everywhere in Europe outside of the Germanic north is currently in the gak. Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal...lack of efficiency.
Per ardua ad astra
Anglo Saxon huh? You're pathetically ignorant if you honestly believe that hard work, discipline, and such are reserved for Anglo saxons. I've never known anything but hard work and discipline and my family hails exclusively from sicily.
TermiesInARaider wrote:
Let's see... Israel. Japan. Germany. France. Spain. Anyone I'm missing? Oh, right. The good ol' USA. Lost a bit of her luster, sure, but she's still the most powerful cultural, political, military, and economic force on the planet earth. Built from immigrants since her inception, continuing to this day, as it was designed to be.
Again, please. Stay on topic. Global economics has nothing to do with how the Imperium of Man would ever defeat it's many enemies.
The USA is an Anglo-Saxon country.
Pretty much everywhere in Europe outside of the Germanic north is currently in the gak. Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal...lack of efficiency.
Per ardua ad astra
Anglo Saxon huh? You're pathetically ignorant if you honestly believe that hard work, discipline, and such are reserved for Anglo saxons. I've never known anything but hard work and discipline and my family hails exclusively from sicily.
You're a joke.
That's probably why Sicily is such an efficient and wealthy place to live.
No, wait.
These characteristics you are identifying are no necessarily quantifiable in terms of a countries economy. Just because a place or person doesn't have a lot of money doesn't mean they are not hard working. Did American west coal miners make a lot of money? Nope. So they weren't hard workers then right? Again no.
Edit: good you shouldn't be making woefully ignorant comments even if you are just joking. By the way, it was a terrible joke
Off topic:
This whole Anglo-Saxon thing was Joey making a joke about the British demeanor from the age of sail through the modern period. The whole stiff upper lip, nose to the grindstone, bulwark of Europe mindset. Apparently it was lost on some, and then exploded in the veiled idea of racism.
It was neither the crowd nor the place for such a joke, and appeared intended without malice...can we please just leave it at that.
On topic:
We don't win, we don't loose, we just try damn hard. Humanity will not go out in some spectacual bang, like the eldar, but will wither away from the death of a thousand cuts before being replaced by something else.
I think the only way the IOM can win is by allying themselves with alien races. This means we should ally with Tau, Eldar, and friendly Necrons. Then we can stand a chance. The biggest problem for the IOM is that they fight against aliens simply because they are aliens. We should be trying to get allies in these battles not making enemies when we encounter another new species.
There is no hope and the Imperium can't win. It will invariably be destroyed by its many foes. That is a constant theme in 40k.
With the Necrons reduced drastically in threat-level they certainly have a boost in 6th edition though. Things won't be as bad for them as in 3rd Edition, which is probably when they were at their worst. Or as bad as in 5th Edition for that matter.
"It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the vast Imperium of Man for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day so that he may never truly die.Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in His name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever-vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat to humanity from aliens, heretics, mutants -- and far, far worse. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
It's an eternal stalemate. Sure, one or another faction may slip up, only remembered in footnotes of the annals of ancient history, but with all the species and numbers and technologies that are involved, there truly cannot ever be a victor except for those wishing for mutually assured destruction.
Brother Coa wrote:That only meant that we have much more to defend then troops to spare. That doesn't mean that we will fail in the end.
Actually, it pretty much does, barring Deus Ex Machina plot devices.
The IOM simply doesn't have the manpower (despite having a massive amount of it) to effectively hold the territory it claims.
If it was capable of making the decision to pull in all of its forces to a smaller territory it could defend that quite handily, but it never will.
Which leaves it slowly shrinking under the depredations of the other factions (and continual internal strife), unwilling to abandon it's hold on territory that it simply cannot control yet unable to expand ior effectively police the outer edges of that territory. It can't produce enough materiel or manpower to retake the lost sections and then expand outwards, and the best i can hope for is to prolong the agony
Which maked for a truly cinematic but very compelling (when they quit retconning everything about ) setting.
The IOM is well and truly fethed. It knows it. It's going down fighting anyway, and will hold every square inch of territory for as long as possible, while a giant neon sign hangs from two Thunderhawks above the scene, flashing 'Feth you all!' in briliant 40 ft high neon.
Anything less wouldn't be appropriately IOM MY BT would be upset at anything less heroic than that,a s it would be taking the easy way out
Automatically Appended Next Post: **Disclaimer** unless they feel like handwaving an Imperial Win miracle, like those folks at BL are so fond of doing, of course.. Not much we can do to penetrate plot armour that thick
You really think that if GW one day decide to finally end 40k they will let the Imeprium fall and Mankind get destroyed?
Human universal rule no. 4: Humans always win ,ALWAYS.
Maybe Imeprium will crumble but new one will arise and conquer the galaxy united under the renewed Emperor.
+ we have Ultramarines, everything else is pointless
Brother Coa wrote:You really think that if GW one day decide to finally end 40k they will let the Imeprium fall and Mankind get destroyed?
Human universal rule no. 4: Humans always win ,ALWAYS.
Maybe Imeprium will crumble but new one will arise and conquer the galaxy united under the renewed Emperor.
+ we have Ultramarines, everything else is pointless
GW will go out of business before allowing 40k to end.
Mankind will not get destroyed but the endgame is a broken empire.
The Only possibilty i see of the Imperuim of Winning is non existant , but surviveing i see a way . If the Imperium was to pull back to core worlds and only keep those were elite soldiers were recruited ( Cadia, Kreig , ect. ) and lose thier outer colonies without overstreching themselves they could fight the Orks to a standstill but in order to push those beseching the Imperium something unthinkable would have to happen the Imperial Guard would have to fight side by side with Tau Firewarriors , Elder Aspect Warriors .. The Space Marines would have to reunite into Legions rather then Chapters and fight Side-by Side with Wraith Guard and Tau Battle suit Squadrens . Kasrkin Stormtroopers side by side with Howeling Banshees and Tau Vespid Warriors .... They would have to unite the technology of the Elder , Manpower and Crack troops of the Imperium , Advanced Plasma technology from the Tau . Only then could the Forces of Light hope to push back the horrors on either side , the Hellspawned Chaos , Ravanous Tyranids and the unnumberable Orks . The imperium if it was willing to do so could show those who opposed them that Never shall Their Galaxy Be threatened and that the Greater Alliance between the Human , Elder and Tau be on shatterable then and only then could the imperium win
But the point is reasonable, IF you can talk the Eldar and Tau, who the IOM has been trying to eradicate, into joining an alliance with the IOM in charge.
DOn't really see that happening, especially as the Eldar and the Tau aren't really into the Imperial Creed, but if it did it would change the setting pretty decisively.
So would an alliance between the Orks and the Eldar. They've even worked together before, a long long time ago. Maybe even rope the DE in too...
Ork hordes supported by Eldar tech.. oh yeah
Flickerfielded, nightshielded, KFF'd, Spiritstoned, Holofielded BW's? Sign me up
But the point is reasonable, IF you can talk the Eldar and Tau, who the IOM has been trying to eradicate, into joining an alliance with the IOM in charge.
DOn't really see that happening, especially as the Eldar and the Tau aren't really into the Imperial Creed, but if it did it would change the setting pretty decisively.
So would an alliance between the Orks and the Eldar. They've even worked together before, a long long time ago. Maybe even rope the DE in too...
Ork hordes supported by Eldar tech.. oh yeah
Flickerfielded, nightshielded, KFF'd, Spiritstoned, Holofielded BW's? Sign me up
Didn't need no periods JK lol but Yeah that is why there is a IF in there.
The Imperium of Man can never fall as long as it is still defended by men willing to lay down theirs lives for the survival of the Human race and the honor to serve He who sits on the Golden Throne.
**off topic**
I'm Anglo-Norman for what it counts and my brother is too, but he is the laziest I've ever met.
Hey if you think about isn't the IoM facing far greater threats than before? Lets compare the current timeline to say pre-HH. We all know or should know the preHH setting. So what's different now threatwise than then.
Aren't tyranids fairly newish? Didn't Leviathan show up till like M38?
The tau are definitely new only being around 5k years old. Ohhh and don't tell me the tau are pushovers. GW has invested to much money and I'm preety sure is making money with the Tau so I'm sure there here to stay. Saying that the tau could easily be defeated and written off.it is like saying that the space marines can be written off because of there small numbers and will cesase to exist in a couple thousand years.
Necrons with the new fluff are a new threat that didn't exist at this level pre heresy
Eldar depending on when the fall occured I've heard around 34M are different now. If it did happen that early than the eldar the Emperor was facing was the poor fresh remnants of the fall.
So in a way now in the 41M with no emperor or primarchs and larger threats isn't the IoM actually destined to lose. Ofcourse I'm speaking theoretically we all know it wont happen in reality. Hope and sacrifice only take you so far before reality catches up
How does humanity win? Simple, donate your criminals, traitors, heretics and attractive women to the landlords of the galaxy as rent, and we'll let you stay, for now.
You really think that if GW one day decide to finally end 40k they will let the Imeprium fall and Mankind get destroyed?
This is entirely missing the point of the Warhammer and 40k universe. Chaos and entropy eventually win. It's inevitable. To some extent they've already won in that humanity only survives in the grip of the worst kind of genocidal and hateful facism. Just about everything good about being human has already been lost for the vast majority (99.999999999999999999999999%) of humans.
The few places where justice and decency survive are out of the way enclaves as likely to be wiped out by other humans for being heretical as they are by inimical aliens or heinous daemonic forces. Or in idealised descriptions by a few writers about what certain Space Marines or the Tau (perhaps) allow in the small zones they control, which can realistically be looked at as exceptions to the rule, or just someone choosing to go off script.
The whole foundational concept behind WH and 40k is a particular pessimistic British view of the late 20th century (especially Britain under Thatcher, for the guys writing in the 80s) and of an insanely over the top dystopian future based on frustrated writers' visions of it. George Orwell and Michael Moorcock and 2000AD comic books, where Judge Dredd executes perps in the street at his own discretion. Orwell is the more realistic end, Moorcock the fantastic one, where the hero is ultimately doomed to be slain and have his soul eaten by the very power(s) he relies upon. Plus some dark humor especially from the 2000AD end.
Sure, GW will not actually choose to end 40k. They're a company selling a product and they're not going to destroy the product. But the nature of the setting has always been that doom is unavoidable. It's dystopian fiction.
Even if the Imperial government collapses under its own weight, the Imperial Guard and Navy will continue to run the galaxy, just by sectors instead of a whole. Most likely, a supreme commander like Creed would step up and take charge of everything (except the 500 worlds of smurfs).
Really, the only thing that could take down the IoM at this point would be another Heresy/Civil War, it has the power to stand against everything else.
Which is why it's losing ground and gettingn it's ass heroically kicked
The IOM is shrinking, not static.
Shrinking says who?
Last time I checked, stasis fields allow no change and the background is pretty much freezed...
But seriously, most realms are shrinking over time.
- Eldar managed to shrink their realm at turbo mode...
- Old ones managed to shrink so hard, nobody remembers them in M41..
- Necrons shrank their realm maybe just a little, some worlds will not return into the fold
- Tyranids are nomadic
- Chaos is to chaotic to know who is shrinking actually
- Humans had a single planet, moved out to the stars ( and we don't know how far ), managed to set the Galaxy on fire, so basically the size of the zone under human influence isn't known and all we got is that the IoM is " a million worlds" . Was it two millions? Is it 999.999 now?
Could i please get a point of referance where you spot this 'shrinking' ?
Which is why it's losing ground and gettingn it's ass heroically kicked
The IOM is shrinking, not static.
The IoM has a stated "million worlds". Even with the described battles/wars/invasions/etc that claim tens/dozens/hundreds of worlds, they are barely scratching at the IoM. Even if they lost a hundred worlds PER DAY, every day, for a year, in that year the IoM would only lose 4% of its total territory. And thats if there are only a million worlds. Its estimated that the milky way has 10 billion inhabitable worlds, its very likely that most of those were colonised during the pre-Long Night golden age, and they simply haven't been rediscovered yet. And that doesn't include all the manufactured habitats, starforts, terraformed worlds, planets colonized despite being unsuited for human life, etc.
Really, the Eldar and Dark Eldar are no threat, as neither has the manpower (eldarpower?) to claim significant territory from the IoM. They also do not have the military strength to stand up to the IoM in a full war.
The Tau could grow to be a threat, but are not much more than a nuisance atm, with controlled territory roughly equal to the Ultramarines Sector. They also are in prime position to be removed from the playing field by the Tyranids. They still exist because the IoM hasn't really turned is gaze upon them, having more important things to deal with (like laundry and grocery lists).
The Necrons are a threat, but are still scattered and uncoordinated. The IoM is also developing tactics for dealing with them, usually orbital bombardment before a tomb world fully awakens. Plus, given the business between the BA and Necrons, there is a potential for the Necrons to simply leave the galaxy....after all, there are a couple empty galaxies nearby that the 'Nids have finished with. Also, 'Crons could be dealt with by luring 'Nid fleets to the tomb worlds.
The Orks are a threat, but a manageable one, as the IoM has been dealing with them for so long they are practically friendly neighbors. In the grand scheme of the 'verse, the Orks are easily pushed back. Also, good 'Nid bait.
Chaos is arguably the greatest threat, due to its influence across the entire galaxy. They also have the advantage of Chaos Marines, and growing stronger as more time passes by default. Also, everything is going Just As Planned.....
Tyranids are the other contenders for the throne of greatest threat. They have the most forces by far, and reasonable tactical knowledge, but made the mistake of coming in in seperate hive fleets. The IoM now has tactics for slowing their advance, and dealing with hive fleets as they appear, though it takes a massive gathering of force to do it. Even exterminating a thousand worlds to stop a single hive fleet is a solid victory for the IoM, as the biomatter is no longer being absorbed by the host, thereby reducing the total force of the 'Nids.
'The space marines and imperial guard are at war as never before, defending humanity from threats within, without and beyond. Tnis is Humanity's darkest hour' .. Not ringing a bell?
'only be force of arms and unnumbered daily acts of desperate valour is rthe imperium held together' no?
Even the main rulebook calls the IOM 'a dminishing empire'
'Yet the Emperor's light grows dim, and his domain dwindles, planet by planet and system by system... There is no peace, no respite, no hope of victory. There is only war' Pretty much the tagline for the game.
They are losing slowly, but they are losing. The timescale for 40K is huge.
The undiscovered worlds aren't IOM, so lets leave them out of this, as they could all hypothetically have been eaten by nids, subjugated by Orks etc also. The starforts etc are usually with a system, and fall when it does.
We'll assume a million worlds, as that's what we're told the IOM has.
If we assume one planet lost a day (and it's likely more) across the IOM it would take 2739.72 yeasrs to be completely eaten away, assuming that all those worlds are totally self sufficient. That's not that long, by 40K standards.
We have characters in the game that are far older than that. A lot of the IOM tech currently in use is..
Now assume that some of these worlds are more critical than others, like say Cadia or Ultramar. If those fall, they take a lot of others with them at the same time.
Sure it would take a while, but in the end the IOM is doomed, within a couple of millenia most likely, and is heroically trying it's best to maintain the status quo, and failing.
Which is why it's losing ground and gettingn it's ass heroically kicked
The IOM is shrinking, not static.
The IoM has a stated "million worlds". Even with the described battles/wars/invasions/etc that claim tens/dozens/hundreds of worlds, they are barely scratching at the IoM. Even if they lost a hundred worlds PER DAY, every day, for a year, in that year the IoM would only lose 4% of its total territory. And thats if there are only a million worlds. Its estimated that the milky way has 10 billion inhabitable worlds, its very likely that most of those were colonised during the pre-Long Night golden age, and they simply haven't been rediscovered yet. And that doesn't include all the manufactured habitats, starforts, terraformed worlds, planets colonized despite being unsuited for human life, etc.
Really, the Eldar and Dark Eldar are no threat, as neither has the manpower (eldarpower?) to claim significant territory from the IoM. They also do not have the military strength to stand up to the IoM in a full war.
The Tau could grow to be a threat, but are not much more than a nuisance atm, with controlled territory roughly equal to the Ultramarines Sector. They also are in prime position to be removed from the playing field by the Tyranids. They still exist because the IoM hasn't really turned is gaze upon them, having more important things to deal with (like laundry and grocery lists).
The Necrons are a threat, but are still scattered and uncoordinated. The IoM is also developing tactics for dealing with them, usually orbital bombardment before a tomb world fully awakens. Plus, given the business between the BA and Necrons, there is a potential for the Necrons to simply leave the galaxy....after all, there are a couple empty galaxies nearby that the 'Nids have finished with. Also, 'Crons could be dealt with by luring 'Nid fleets to the tomb worlds.
The Orks are a threat, but a manageable one, as the IoM has been dealing with them for so long they are practically friendly neighbors. In the grand scheme of the 'verse, the Orks are easily pushed back. Also, good 'Nid bait.
Chaos is arguably the greatest threat, due to its influence across the entire galaxy. They also have the advantage of Chaos Marines, and growing stronger as more time passes by default. Also, everything is going Just As Planned.....
Tyranids are the other contenders for the throne of greatest threat. They have the most forces by far, and reasonable tactical knowledge, but made the mistake of coming in in seperate hive fleets. The IoM now has tactics for slowing their advance, and dealing with hive fleets as they appear, though it takes a massive gathering of force to do it. Even exterminating a thousand worlds to stop a single hive fleet is a solid victory for the IoM, as the biomatter is no longer being absorbed by the host, thereby reducing the total force of the 'Nids.
2 Things
1) the million worlds part is meant in a poetical way.
2)the number of orks is around as high as the amount of tyranids its even suspected that they have infested planets from other galaxies.
Also the DE have way more numbers that you seem to think The CWE are low on bodies, but the DE have them aplenty.
You only ever see a tiny tiny fraction of them going raiding, and never the whole of Commoragh at once. I'd say that every Kabal, Cult and Coven together could put on one hell of a webway-delivered lightshow if they felt like it, but that's not really their style. Direct confrontation is for chumps
There's no need to stand up to the IOM in face-on war when you can just appear at will, feth them up and go home laughing, anywhere you choose to pop out.
Some places are a bad idea to do so, but doesn't mean they couldn't if they wanted to (like in Terra orbit for example).
They could, but it would be suicide unless they took a LOT of guys and ships, and alphastruck the defenses before they could respond. - if you want to discuss the likelyhood of this scenario i'd be happy to in another thread, to avoid roaming OT too much).
I'm on the fence, sure there are a lot of human's in the galaxy, and with their combined might they can definitely take on the other forces of the galaxy with a significant change of exterminating all of them. The problem is, anything short of the Emperor uniting them all together will force the Imperium on a agonizingly slow decline to extinction. Even a single person cannot unite the Imperium long enough to do battle with every force in the galaxy, including humanity itself. The Age of Apostasy was a clear example of this and it would only mean another show of humanity's ever present and greatest weakness, it's own corruption, that will eventually be its downfall unless the Emperor returns to save them.
The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?
Kasrkin229 wrote:The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?
Cadia is too busy fighting the Traitor Legions to even think.
Kasrkin229 wrote:The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?
He didn't unite the whole Imperium, he led a fantastically successful campaign into the far reaches of space. Sure, he had the support of billions of people, but he wasn't even named a High Lord of Terra.
Goge Vandire was one of the only two "normal" people to ever command the entire Imperium at one time. The other was Sebastian Thor up until shortly after his crusade defeated Vandire, and then he stepped down and became Ecclesiarch. (the Imperium's pope)
Kasrkin229 wrote:The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?
He didn't unite the whole Imperium, he led a fantastically successful campaign into the far reaches of space. Sure, he had the support of billions of people, but he wasn't even named a High Lord of Terra.
Goge Vandire was one of the only two "normal" people to ever command the entire Imperium at one time. The other was Sebastian Thor up until shortly after his crusade defeated Vandire, and then he stepped down and became Ecclesiarch. (the Imperium's pope)
I was saying that it was Macharius who did very well and would have done better had he not been cut off from supplies . I am commenting that simpley if Creed and Yarrick sided together you would have a Massive Fighting force and production capacity
Kasrkin229 wrote:The only person other then the Emperor was Lord Macharicus , he was the only one to unite the imperium for the time he was alive . Perhaps Creed will unite the Guard in the Cadian Sector ?
He didn't unite the whole Imperium, he led a fantastically successful campaign into the far reaches of space. Sure, he had the support of billions of people, but he wasn't even named a High Lord of Terra.
Goge Vandire was one of the only two "normal" people to ever command the entire Imperium at one time. The other was Sebastian Thor up until shortly after his crusade defeated Vandire, and then he stepped down and became Ecclesiarch. (the Imperium's pope)
I was saying that it was Macharius who did very well and would have done better had he not been cut off from supplies . I am commenting that simpley if Creed and Yarrick sided together you would have a Massive Fighting force and production capacity
Ah, sorry, I didn't get impression from what you said. I'd like to add a brutally sarcastic remark about telepathy not going through computers very effectively but it's really not that funny lol.
Ahh well i didn't mean for it to sound in that manner , but simpley for the Imperium to win the Two Greatest (living ) commanders of the Guard would have to Unit their Armies ( Cadian and Armeggedon ) but even still that wouldn't be enough , considerabley ALL of the Guard Regiments would have to Withdraw and Redeploy under the Head of One Supreme Commander , not the highlords of Terra because they sit in there damn ACed chairs doing nothing but a commander like Yarrack or Creed
salamander117 wrote:I want to point out for that one guy that "the good ol' USA" was practically founded on racism and genocide which should not be bragged about
Don't get me wrong i love being an american but the clear fact is humans are awful creatures who don't give a darn if it doesn't effect them
That's why we always win
Oh, definitely! America's founding was just as bloody and nasty as anyone's.
That was really more a flavor-phrase. The point I was making was that the US is NOT an Anglo-Saxon nation, hasn't been since its inception as an independent nation, and most likely never will be.
OT, I think I very much agree with the entire downsizing strategy. If the Imperium was willing to consolidate its forces backwards, it would find itself on at least slightly more even terms with its enemies. As things are, the IoM wins its battles depending on when reinforcements get there. Until they can start winning with what they have on-site, or at least lasting a helluva lot longer, they're going to be fighting a losing battle.
Heres the biggest advantage the IoM has over all other races. The IoM has Saints. Embodiments of the Emperors will given form. True holy avengers. The entire business of the Emperor not being a god gets thrown out the window when you realize that praying to him actually works against his enemies.
Personally, I think the "Great Awakening" of the late M41 was the Emperor having a wet dream, and he's about to wake up. Which would be an awesome development, as it is not an instant win for the IoM but would take the current amount of warfare to a new level.
Assuming that they aren't just drawing on the warp in the belief that he's granting them the power, becoming Big E's daemon princes... but that's another can of worms I've seen both sides argued, and i'm not overly fussed either way.
E is a powerful warp entity. Gods are too. It's entirely possible he is one, by that standard. The dividing line gets a mite fuzzy in this setting, as they don't require deities to be omnipotent, omnisentient and omniscient to be gods
If he did wake up he's likely want a few words with his peeps, as they've basically taken a leak on his dream for 10,000 years
1) the million worlds part is meant in a poetical way.
2)the number of orks is around as high as the amount of tyranids its even suspected that they have infested planets from other galaxies.
1) million worlds is found in codex necron too. Poesy for space robots?
Seriously, the 'million' worlds part is consistantly used by GW. Thus its unlikely they change that.
2) The number of orks and nids is unknown. IIRC there was never a thread with a consent on those numbers.
There is no reason to use hard numbers because the clever course is to use orkz like the orks in fantasy and the nids are the threat lurking in the dark ( void ). So both are numberless or just enough to keep the local opponents busy. Its all up to the storyline told.
TermiesInARaider wrote:
OT, I think I very much agree with the entire downsizing strategy. If the Imperium was willing to consolidate its forces backwards, it would find itself on at least slightly more even terms with its enemies. As things are, the IoM wins its battles depending on when reinforcements get there. Until they can start winning with what they have on-site, or at least lasting a helluva lot longer, they're going to be fighting a losing battle.
Why downsizing?
The IoM is spread across the Galaxy, so where do you "fall back" ? To take a line back if it is endangered to be broken and units cut off is a valid tactic on a surface of a planet with lines drawn. But in space and 3-D ?
The terms with its enemys aren't uneven. The Imperium reacts slowly thanks to the bureacracy, but those bean counters are not cared for by downsizing. You make it worse. Now, more of them got the spare time to ruin someones life...
The IoM doesn't have to start winning. They do already. And got the reinforcement capabilities to keep on when others have to run away.
So no, they don't need to downsize to have a chance.
They do have to start winning, as they are currently losing- see the quotes above in my previous post.
As to downsizing, they could also downsize the bean-counters, and maybe even put something more efficient in their place
Downscaling the empire in 3d isn't that hard either- pull forces from disputed outlying zones into positions of established strength, and fortify those. They don't have to hold ever inch of a globe of space around Terra, but right now they are being extremely inefficient and wasteful with the resources they have, and attempting to hold a far bigger volume of space than they are actually capable of controlling.
Could you please link up some info on the standing reinforcements they have, just waiting around? I was under the impression that the IOM is in a desperate, constant struggle for bare survival, given that's what the fluff in the rulebook states.
There are reinforcements constantly being levied, true enough, and massive numbers of them at that, but the troops being killed is that number and more, from what i've read, otherwise the IOM wouldn't be in the hole it's in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Newcrons might just write you a poem, these days :(
I liked them better when they were murderous, silent killers..
(or it could just be Ward being lazy and using the same 'million worlds' statement as the rulebook )
Ascalam wrote:They do have to start winning, as they are currently losing- see the quotes above in my previous post.
As to downsizing, they could also downsize the bean-counters, and maybe even put something more efficient in their place
Downscaling the empire in 3d isn't that hard either- pull forces from disputed outlying zones into positions of established strength, and fortify those. They don't have to hold ever inch of a globe of space around Terra, but right now they are being extremely inefficient and wasteful with the resources they have, and attempting to hold a far bigger volume of space than they are actually capable of controlling.
Could you please link up some info on the standing reinforcements they have, just waiting around? I was under the impression that the IOM is in a desperate, constant struggle for bare survival, given that's what the fluff in the rulebook states.
There are reinforcements constantly being levied, true enough, and massive numbers of them at that, but the troops being killed is that number and more, from what i've read, otherwise the IOM wouldn't be in the hole it's in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Newcrons might just write you a poem, these days :(
I liked them better when they were murderous, silent killers..
(or it could just be Ward being lazy and using the same 'million worlds' statement as the rulebook )
- Who wants to score wins, reads codices.. - who dares to oppose the bean counters?
- the standing reinforcements aren't standing as they just recrut more "on the fly" . Pretty established and there were never too few recruts.
The BRB has a map and the codex has billions of regiments. Combine that with the rest of the imperial forces and theme of the IG alone would clearly leave no doubts. Casualty rates which 'lesser' forces couldn't survive are acceptable for the IG if you look up their campaigns.
Acceptable is, what isn't undoing a force and achieves the missions goal. In this the IoM is the only part of the forces of order to take that course ( Eldar and Tau too small, necrons too sleepy yet ) and live. So guess where the background will go:
a) crons awake fully and join the Humans, Eldar and Tau , adding another million of worlds to support the fight.
b) GW still runs with the "full circle" from 3rd ed and sees to a undoing of the Humans. Invested as they are in the current main actor of their storyline I'd not put money on that.
c) someone at GWHQ realizes how many chances the current authors have missed ( war poets for example as necron overlords...) and 7th ed has the sub-title " the Emperor strikes back" where Big E and his pale faced, blue faced and silvery faced vassals apply bug spray, fungizid and tons of exorcism to cleanse the Galaxy of disorder.
All hail the mighty God-Emporer, oppressor of pansy space elfs, re-educator of the fish people and new triarch of the space undead. Slayer of orks, squasher of bugs and Anathema to chaos. How can we not win? Our Space Emporer is more awesome than space popes and even got his own thread where we can ask him, right here at Dakka.
He who likes IOM propaganda that only mentions the wins, reads SM codexes and the notoriously IOM-obsessed BL
He who wants to see the SM losses reads non-tyranid xeno codexes (propaganda )
The setting book (the more unbiased account) still has the IOM losing. You can win a bunch of battles and still lose the war The IOM could probably take any of the factions in a fair fight, but it can't take all lof them, plus internal strife/mutation, which is why it's on the wane.
If there were a sufficient supply of recruits, then they wouldn't have to abandon system after system, being driven back. The warzones would all be stalemates or IOM wins, which they aren't. You don't need a struggle for survival and daily acts of desperate heroism if you're winning
Believe me, my BT would love to see the IOM have a resurgence, and it may yet be on the cards, but as it stands at present the IOM is fading, slowly and heroically, which gives ample scope for my BT to be heroes. This is deliberately written into the setting so that humanity can BE the heroic ones, valiantly fighting against overwhelming odds (rather than being macho poseurs in power armour, curbstomping all opposition like the GK I liked them better as heroes dammit !! )
Automatically Appended Next Post: a) crons awake fully and join the Humans, Eldar and Tau , adding another million of worlds to support the fight.
Why? The IOM has already tried to exterminate all three races. They aren't exactly friends, and this isn't LOTR or BAB 5 where all other races auto-join humanity just because..
b) GW still runs with the "full circle" from 3rd ed and sees to a undoing of the Humans. Invested as they are in the current main actor of their storyline I'd not put money on that.
They'll just do what they have since RT.. Humanity is doomed and on the wane, fighting heroically against it's tragic fate...
c) someone at GWHQ realizes how many chances the current authors have missed ( war poets for example as necron overlords...) and 7th ed has the sub-title " the Emperor strikes back" where Big E and his pale faced, blue faced and silvery faced vassals apply bug spray, fungizid and tons of exorcism to cleanse the Galaxy of disorder.
Fun though it might be, they'd lose half their business if they did, and this would become Marinehammer 41K in truth, with no antagonistic xenos to fight. Just as lethal to their setting as allowing the xenos to destroy the IOM, so never likely to happen. Every battle would be 'maneuvers'' or 'training exercises' and that would be dull as hell. It's already that way at most games, as everyone plays SM SM need xenos to make them look good, after all. SM vs SM is a case of 'I shoot you with my bolter, it bounces off. Your turn.... '
(cue The Normandy Reborn theme)
The Emperor Reborn - who's going to stand against the Imperium? No one! With the Emperor at our head, no one, not space bugs, not space communists, not magic mushrooms, not even space undead can stop us! Even space elves will bow before us!
(cue The Normandy Reborn theme)
The Emperor Reborn - who's going to stand against the Imperium? No one! With the Emperor at our head, no one, not space bugs, not space communists, not magic mushrooms, not even space undead can stop us! Even space elves will bow before us!
***Ave Renatus Imperator!***
This is a common misconception. The Emperor isn't some IWIN-button. He isn't some giant killing machine that eradicates armies by sneezing. Look at the Great Crusade, did Mankind forge their empire because of the Emperor alone? No, he organized the thing, the Space Marines did the actual fighting. At that time, almost all the xenos was around too (except Necrons, Tyranids and Tau), and they didn't simply die off because they looked at him, and the Eldar certainly didn't bow. He also got essentially killed by a Primarch, who certainly are mighty, but not as powerful as the Emperor.
Point is, the Emperor being reborn would do nothing to make the Imperium win. More likely it would create a religious schism, dividing the Imperium, which would send them crashing to their doom.
The Imperium is doomed to fail and be destroyed. No empire lasts forever, and the whole point of Warhammer 40k is supposed to be humanity's grand, slow last stand against it's enemies.
(cue The Normandy Reborn theme)
The Emperor Reborn - who's going to stand against the Imperium? No one! With the Emperor at our head, no one, not space bugs, not space communists, not magic mushrooms, not even space undead can stop us! Even space elves will bow before us!
***Ave Renatus Imperator!***
This is a common misconception. The Emperor isn't some IWIN-button. He isn't some giant killing machine that eradicates armies by sneezing. Look at the Great Crusade, did Mankind forge their empire because of the Emperor alone? No, he organized the thing, the Space Marines did the actual fighting. At that time, almost all the xenos was around too (except Necrons, Tyranids and Tau), and they didn't simply die off because they looked at him, and the Eldar certainly didn't bow. He also got essentially killed by a Primarch, who certainly are mighty, but not as powerful as the Emperor.
Point is, the Emperor being reborn would do nothing to make the Imperium win. More likely it would create a religious schism, dividing the Imperium, which would send them crashing to their doom.
The Imperium is doomed to fail and be destroyed. No empire lasts forever, and the whole point of Warhammer 40k is supposed to be humanity's grand, slow last stand against it's enemies.
If so, let me respond with this quote from Grey Knights: Hammer of Daemons:
"We are young and blind. We are weak flesh and fools. Perhaps someday we will be gone, but we burn so bright, that the galaxy, which has forgotten much, will never forget us.
(cue The Normandy Reborn theme)
The Emperor Reborn - who's going to stand against the Imperium? No one! With the Emperor at our head, no one, not space bugs, not space communists, not magic mushrooms, not even space undead can stop us! Even space elves will bow before us!
***Ave Renatus Imperator!***
This is a common misconception. The Emperor isn't some IWIN-button. He isn't some giant killing machine that eradicates armies by sneezing. Look at the Great Crusade, did Mankind forge their empire because of the Emperor alone? No, he organized the thing, the Space Marines did the actual fighting. At that time, almost all the xenos was around too (except Necrons, Tyranids and Tau), and they didn't simply die off because they looked at him, and the Eldar certainly didn't bow. He also got essentially killed by a Primarch, who certainly are mighty, but not as powerful as the Emperor.
Point is, the Emperor being reborn would do nothing to make the Imperium win. More likely it would create a religious schism, dividing the Imperium, which would send them crashing to their doom.
The Imperium is doomed to fail and be destroyed. No empire lasts forever, and the whole point of Warhammer 40k is supposed to be humanity's grand, slow last stand against it's enemies.
If so, let me respond with this quote from Grey Knights: Hammer of Daemons:
"We are young and blind. We are weak flesh and fools. Perhaps someday we will be gone, but we burn so bright, that the galaxy, which has forgotten much, will never forget us.
(cue The Normandy Reborn theme)
The Emperor Reborn - who's going to stand against the Imperium? No one! With the Emperor at our head, no one, not space bugs, not space communists, not magic mushrooms, not even space undead can stop us! Even space elves will bow before us!
***Ave Renatus Imperator!***
This is a common misconception. The Emperor isn't some IWIN-button. He isn't some giant killing machine that eradicates armies by sneezing. Look at the Great Crusade, did Mankind forge their empire because of the Emperor alone? No, he organized the thing, the Space Marines did the actual fighting. At that time, almost all the xenos was around too (except Necrons, Tyranids and Tau), and they didn't simply die off because they looked at him, and the Eldar certainly didn't bow. He also got essentially killed by a Primarch, who certainly are mighty, but not as powerful as the Emperor.
Point is, the Emperor being reborn would do nothing to make the Imperium win. More likely it would create a religious schism, dividing the Imperium, which would send them crashing to their doom.
The Imperium is doomed to fail and be destroyed. No empire lasts forever, and the whole point of Warhammer 40k is supposed to be humanity's grand, slow last stand against it's enemies.
If so, let me respond with this quote from Grey Knights: Hammer of Daemons:
"We are young and blind. We are weak flesh and fools. Perhaps someday we will be gone, but we burn so bright, that the galaxy, which has forgotten much, will never forget us.
A central theme to 40k is that humanity cannot win. Or at least it was prior to 6th edition.
Humanity reached into the stars, had its golden years, fell to infighting, and now does its best to merely hold the enemy at bay, while losing ground. They're surrounded by alien empires who want nothing more (for their own various reasons) than the destruction of the Imperium, and assailed form within by mutants, witches and the daemonic. Basically the fiction is set up as a freeze frame of a knockout blow to a defeated humanity, but won't land.
Recently that vision has been blurred with some of the ridiculous fluff that's come out of Ward and, to a lesser extend, Cruddace. While their fluff would fit in a fiction set up with humanity on the rise in its glory days, it really contrasts to the main concepts.
Basically - it depends on where they take them fluff. If they go in the original direction, no, humanity can't win, because they're not supposed to. If they keep going in the direction of Ward has been writing, they probably can through the super human efforts of the smallest fighting force humanity has ever used, but will feel shoehorned in.
There is no hope for the IoM. It has to deal with countless Orks, the forces of Chaos and the crafty Eldar. The IoM could probably deal with those threats but when all the Necron Tomb worlds wake up or the main body on the Nid fleet show up (or both Gak!) they would be overwhelmed. Best they could do is take as many with them as possible.
The Orks on the otherhand, will be ok. They all just have to know their roles and get behind Ghaz. Galaxy wide Waaagh anyone?
I would be vary interested in the outcome of a galactic Waaagh on the nids. They might find themselfs losing ground for the first time since whatever is chasing them showed up.
Ledabot wrote:I would be vary interested in the outcome of a galactic Waaagh on the nids. They might find themselfs losing ground for the first time since whatever is chasing them showed up.
Actually i can't really think of any incidence of the IOM being Good. Protecting humanity, yes, but casually sanctioned genocide and xenocide are definitely heading into evil territory like a lead baloon. Keeping your citizenry in crushing ignorance, and execting those that step out of line.. not so good..
Any regime whose primary dictate it to wipe out all non-human life for territory due to 'divine right' or 'manifest destiny' isn't Good, even if they think of themselves as such.
YMMV of course, but the IOm has all the hallmarks of a despotic, uncaring and oppressive regime. Granted it's the best humanity can manage, and it may be necessary, but Good it aint.
LN i might accede to, but with definite Evil tendencies in the name of expediency and pride.
Ascalam wrote:Actually i can't really think of any incidence of the IOM being Good. Protecting humanity, yes, but casually sanctioned genocide and xenocide are definitely heading into evil territory like a lead baloon. Keeping your citizenry in crushing ignorance, and execting those that step out of line.. not so good..
Any regime whose primary dictate it to wipe out all non-human life for territory due to 'divine right' or 'manifest destiny' isn't Good, even if they think of themselves as such.
YMMV of course, but the IOm has all the hallmarks of a despotic, uncaring and oppressive regime. Granted it's the best humanity can manage, and it may be necessary, but Good it aint.
LN i might accede to, but with definite Evil tendencies in the name of expediency and pride.
The Imperium, the Eldar, the Tau and, the Necrons: Lawful Neutral/Lawful Evil
Chaos and the Dark Eldar: Neutral Evil/Chaotic Evil
The Tyranids and the Orks: True Neutral/Chaotic Neutral
I don't understand all this talk of humanity being doomed, maybe the Imperium just because the throne is failling but humanity is still the most numerous species in the milky way.
ZSO SAHALL wrote:I don't understand all this talk of humanity being doomed, maybe the Imperium just because the throne is failling but humanity is still the most numerous species in the milky way.
O.o Not even close. Orks are the most numerous species native to the galaxy and Nids also outnumber the Imperium easily. And who knows how many daemons can potentially be spawned?
Do the tyranids really have more? Sure, they've got their hive fleets with trillions of organisms. And they've got their splinters which make more.
But we breed like rabbits and there are countless worlds under mankind's control, most containing a couple billion, the hive worlds significantly more.
Also, all the Hive Fleets are in a constant state of war, so their numbers are constantly dwindling... there are some that are repleneshing by feeding but the majority is facing resistance and just about everything wants to destroy them.
Our victory - their doom. Just keep the doom but turn the tables..
Page 116 is all I say.
My BT would agree with you
The rest of my armies (those not driven by blind, unquestioning faith in the Emperor and insane bigotry ) are more partial to the last section on Pg 104.
FOR THE EMPEROR EVER ONWARD!!! 
I mean its been 40 thousand years of it and humanity has done fine (at least in the majority which is over 500 trillion). Worse case scenario every one gets armed and joins the fight, who the feth is gonna go after 500 trillion screaming fanatics armed with... well EVERYTHING they can get their hands on.
Because , this Galaxy belongs to the Emperor and my trusty chainsword will ensure they all learn to accept this truth. 
. All that matters is the inevitable victory of the forces of the 
or in a fiery bath of da burna boyz 
I've ever met.
'
