Given GW's occassional removal of units (or altering them in wierd ways) between editions, which unit(s) are you worried will go the way of the dodo in your 'dex?

For me its sternguard (my current lists are screwed if they go back to being generic veterans or tyranid war vets).

Killa Kans. I dont think they will be scrapped but expect a nerf for them.

Let's see...

I'm probably going to say Deathwing Terminators. Seriously, if they're canned, I'll have to grab a game board and swing it into somebody's face.

GW has said they will never again invalidate models.

So while a unit may get scrapped you will still be able to use the models somewhere.


and no way are Deathwing getting scrapped. They are what makes the Dark Angels the Dark Angels. Without them they are just Vanilla marines, but without the vanilla flavor

Well the OP did say unit...

There's not much the Tau can lose besides Crisis Suits, and Railguns, and that point, they'd truly be a dead army...

As for my other army, Elysian Drop Troops, I don't see them taking away much without some massive fluff changes/ass pulls.
Losing veterans? Maybe?

Grey Templar wrote:GW has said they will never again invalidate models.

So while a unit may get scrapped you will still be able to use the models somewhere.


and no way are Deathwing getting scrapped. They are what makes the Dark Angels the Dark Angels. Without them they are just Vanilla marines, but without the vanilla flavor

also gw likes selling termie boxes and deathwing is alot of boxes or termi armor

to the OP ... i'd be sad to see warbiggies/wartraxx gone.. btu gw hasn't updated the model in forever and pretty much released new models for everything ele in the ork line.. hope they don't get rid of them because my ork army lists start with 315 points for 9 rokkit buggies and build out from there

G00fySmiley wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:GW has said they will never again invalidate models.

So while a unit may get scrapped you will still be able to use the models somewhere.


and no way are Deathwing getting scrapped. They are what makes the Dark Angels the Dark Angels. Without them they are just Vanilla marines, but without the vanilla flavor

also gw likes selling termie boxes and deathwing is alot of boxes or termi armor

to the OP ... i'd be sad to see warbiggies/wartraxx gone.. btu gw hasn't updated the model in forever and pretty much released new models for everything ele in the ork line.. hope they don't get rid of them because my ork army lists start with 315 points for 9 rokkit buggies and build out from there

Less boxes than a ton of Tac marines.

And never did the OP talk about what was logical

Ork Battlewagons.

So useful, so many choices, so many uses, and of course, the Daisy modification.

"CRUSH EM WIF DA DEFF ROLLLAAA"

I use my current one's as "Rokkit wagons" filled to the brim with tankbusters out seeking to crush ALL the tanks.

My issue with an edition change isn't that units will be invalidated, but wargear options.

Anyone who had become accustomed to getting an extra attack in CC for a bolt pistol-powerfist combination in 4th Edition knows what I'm talking about.

Monster Rain wrote:My issue with an edition change isn't that units will be invalidated, but wargear options.

Anyone who had become accustomed to getting an extra attack in CC for a bolt pistol-powerfist combination in 4th Edition knows what I'm talking about.

Yeah. Similarly, I think there's a fair chance that IG Veterans will move back to the Elites slot in their next book. This doesn't invalidate people's armies, but it would necessitate substantial changes to many...

Flayed Ones.

They aren't great anyway, and if 6th makes a CC unit without power weps completely useless, they will be the most useless unit in the dex. (not that they aren't the most useless unit in the dex anyway )

I think 6th will make vehicles more of a danger to be inside when they get destroyed.

Explosions will probably be stronger(maybe Str5)

I'm not worried much about specific units being taken out - GW codices have been giving MORE options, not fewer. I do fear that 6th edition rules may hurt powerblobs though, since they're what I'm building my Valhallan army around.

I actually hope that an exploding vehicle is S5 inside, S4 outside and AP2.

I hate that you can blow up a tank and all that happens is the unit standing in a crater (not even pinned)

I hope 6th doesn't invalidate all of the vehicles I have bought for my BA army...If tanks aren't as good next edition I'm going to feel like an idiot for getting all of those tanks about 6 months ago.

IHateNids wrote:I actually hope that an exploding vehicle is S5 inside, S4 outside and AP2.

I hate that you can blow up a tank and all that happens is the unit standing in a crater (not even pinned)

I think AP2 is a bit too harsh, but I'm all for S5 inside/S4 outside. AP2 would absolutely massacre elite armies and Orks and IG wouldn't care all that much.

The melee distance may get changed or individually armed models may be able to get sniped in combat. So a model could allocate hits to your Sergeants to kill off your power weapons if said model was in BtB.

One of my pals remarked that he really hopes ard boyz don't go along with the Ard Boyz GT and that got me thinking what units alteration/elimination could really mess the metagame as 6e rolls out new 'dexes and such... and which ones would make me freak if they were gone [eyes 3 painted and magnatized ironclads and 30+ painted sternguard nervously].

Brother SRM wrote:

IHateNids wrote:I actually hope that an exploding vehicle is S5 inside, S4 outside and AP2.

I hate that you can blow up a tank and all that happens is the unit standing in a crater (not even pinned)

I think AP2 is a bit too harsh, but I'm all for S5 inside/S4 outside. AP2 would absolutely massacre elite armies and Orks and IG wouldn't care all that much.

Maybe it should be rollable, D3 (representing AP3 to 6)

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Maybe it should be rollable, D3 (representing AP3 to 6)

Or just a flat AP D6 could work. I'm just spitballing and going off topic though! I do hope vehicles don't become rolling coffins like in 4th again, but they could serve to be more dangerous for those inside them.

Brother SRM wrote:

IHateNids wrote:I actually hope that an exploding vehicle is S5 inside, S4 outside and AP2.

I hate that you can blow up a tank and all that happens is the unit standing in a crater (not even pinned)

I think AP2 is a bit too harsh, but I'm all for S5 inside/S4 outside. AP2 would absolutely massacre elite armies and Orks and IG wouldn't care all that much.

Exactly. At the moment, that Land Raider full of HammerNators is going to get to you, and if by some chance it dosen't, the Termies will. Guaranteed.

It would make people think twice about investing that number of points in an OP unit.

IHateNids wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

IHateNids wrote:I actually hope that an exploding vehicle is S5 inside, S4 outside and AP2.

I hate that you can blow up a tank and all that happens is the unit standing in a crater (not even pinned)

I think AP2 is a bit too harsh, but I'm all for S5 inside/S4 outside. AP2 would absolutely massacre elite armies and Orks and IG wouldn't care all that much.

Exactly. At the moment, that Land Raider full of HammerNators is going to get to you, and if by some chance it dosen't, the Termies will. Guaranteed.

It would make people think twice about investing that number of points in an OP unit.

Hammernators are an OP unit? Since when?

It'd just mean they'd be never used ever again, because that'd completely invalidate them, with an overcosted box and a unit full of squishes that are inside.

You'd still have to deal with Thunderwolves afterall.

OP?

That unit is at minimum 700 points, most likely alot more.

It better be devestating for that price tag.

Ok, AP3 then. But deffinately S5 in, S4 out

Or maybe a Str5 hit outside, and units inside an exploding transport lose D6 models with no armor saves allowed. Characters take D3 wounds with saves allowed instead.

They're probably going to nerf Fire Dragons so we stop seeing every bloody list built around three Fire Dragon units...

Thank goodness. I never liked Fire Dragons much anyway. Let's have Rangers that can actually do something instead.

Grey Templar wrote:Or maybe a Str5 hit outside, and units inside an exploding transport lose D6 models with no armor saves allowed. Characters take D3 wounds with saves allowed instead.

Good way to make no MEQ players ever take transports.

I'm mostly expecting GW to cut down on the amount of options I have. My jump pack Techmarine and my TH/SS Techmarine probably aren't going to be valid, for example.

AnomanderRake wrote:They're probably going to nerf Fire Dragons so we stop seeing every bloody list built around three Fire Dragon units...

Thank goodness. I never liked Fire Dragons much anyway. Let's have Rangers that can actually do something instead.

I'm still curious, all the aspects are about training specifically in their one thing, and it involves lots of practice and a variety of skills to get it done...

And they give fire dragons meltaguns, which is at best standard training the Imperium would give someone.

I really, feally hope they get some new stuff for them, because it seems their training is simply handing them a meltagun, telling them to get up close, and firing.

noise marines or slaanesh in general getting more nerfed as s/he gest so little love from GW as it is :3

Noise Marines can be nerfed more?

pretre wrote:Noise Marines can be nerfed more?

Doom sirens are still good.

pretre wrote:Noise Marines can be nerfed more?

Easy, take away that extra initiative, take away pinning from all sonic weapons, and bump up the cost even MOAR. GW will not stop kicking Slaanesh while he/she/it/hermaphrodite is down until we all forget about him/her/it/hermaphrodite.

My only worry is that Flyers dont get their own FO slot, FA/HS is already pretty crowed in a lot of armies, so I would like to see them as a separate entity.

dæl wrote:My only worry is that Flyers dont get their own FO slot, FA/HS is already pretty crowed in a lot of armies, so I would like to see them as a separate entity.

That may or may not become a reality, seems rather likely since flyers are becoming more and more common and I've heard quite a lot of rumours that the flyer rules for Apoc will be migrating into standard 40k.

Brother SRM wrote:I'm not worried much about specific units being taken out - GW codices have been giving MORE options, not fewer. I do fear that 6th edition rules may hurt powerblobs though, since they're what I'm building my Valhallan army around.

I think GW is removing options, not adding them. I dropped 40K after 3rd edition came out, and when I recently picked up 5th, I was really surprised at how few options there were for wargear and troops in 5th. Orks no longer have boar boyz, skar boyz, or mad boyz, and unless you're talking about HQ characters, the wargear lists are definitely "meh." 3rd ed. sergeants got a lot more options. Yeah, there are more vehicles, but where'd the fluffy units go? 2nd and 3rd editions were far better for choices in units and wargear.

And then there's Grey Knights.... Geeze, whadda load of limburger.

Oh, and what happened to useful grenades?

Rhino's If the hull points thing is true, it can get destroyed in a moments notice.
And if the idea of "Closests guys get the wound" it could destroy fast attack units in my army when my captain charges and gets wounded, but i alocate to another poor sod.

BairdEC wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I'm not worried much about specific units being taken out - GW codices have been giving MORE options, not fewer. I do fear that 6th edition rules may hurt powerblobs though, since they're what I'm building my Valhallan army around.

I think GW is removing options, not adding them. I dropped 40K after 3rd edition came out, and when I recently picked up 5th, I was really surprised at how few options there were for wargear and troops in 5th. Orks no longer have boar boyz, skar boyz, or mad boyz, and unless you're talking about HQ characters, the wargear lists are definitely "meh." 3rd ed. sergeants got a lot more options. Yeah, there are more vehicles, but where'd the fluffy units go? 2nd and 3rd editions were far better for choices in units and wargear.

And then there's Grey Knights.... Geeze, whadda load of limburger.

Oh, and what happened to useful grenades?

Boar boyz, mad boyz, and skar boyz were from Chapter Approved however. Even though as stated, third edition also had things like chapter approved and mini-codexs like craftworld eldar and others to help some of the slack.

Not in 2nd. I don't remember if they were Chapter Approved in in 3rd, but I do remember them being available. GW should at least bring back boar boyz, and I'd like to see skar boyz again. Mad boyz can be modeled, even if there are no rules for their madness. I just think the orks need something between the basic boyz and nobs.

Pariahs...oh wait.

Grey Templar wrote:OP?

That unit is at minimum 700 points, most likely alot more.

It better be devestating for that price tag.

actually mine runs 760 it better crush people

The entire GK codex, PLEASE.

Seriously though, it usually is the unit most players got so they're forced to buy more stuff.

Wait...everyone and their mum bought a lot of undercost transports...that...might turn out to be awesome

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I'm still curious, all the aspects are about training specifically in their one thing, and it involves lots of practice and a variety of skills to get it done...

And they give fire dragons meltaguns, which is at best standard training the Imperium would give someone.

I really, feally hope they get some new stuff for them, because it seems their training is simply handing them a meltagun, telling them to get up close, and firing.

Joys of melta
Agreed, the current form of suicide squad is annoying. But I feel that others suffer from similar fate. Other aspects at least try to do something interesting (intercept, defend, surprise assault/withdraw, shadowstrike/stalker). However the execution is either very poor, costing is atrocious or the unit itself is so crappy it just doesn't work.
I really don't want Wave Serpents / Falcons to become death traps. A typical WS (scatters + maybe stones) is 3 times as much as a rhino. Maybe I'm biased but over 100 is too much to be a death trap for ~150 point Dire Avenger squad (As opposed to 35 rhino for ~160 SM TACs).

Macok wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I'm still curious, all the aspects are about training specifically in their one thing, and it involves lots of practice and a variety of skills to get it done...

And they give fire dragons meltaguns, which is at best standard training the Imperium would give someone.

I really, feally hope they get some new stuff for them, because it seems their training is simply handing them a meltagun, telling them to get up close, and firing.

Joys of melta

Awesome comic. The text and the images are mis-aligned though. The web developer in me hates it

Macok wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I'm still curious, all the aspects are about training specifically in their one thing, and it involves lots of practice and a variety of skills to get it done...

And they give fire dragons meltaguns, which is at best standard training the Imperium would give someone.

I really, feally hope they get some new stuff for them, because it seems their training is simply handing them a meltagun, telling them to get up close, and firing.

Joys of melta
Agreed, the current form of suicide squad is annoying. But I feel that others suffer from similar fate. Other aspects at least try to do something interesting (intercept, defend, surprise assault/withdraw, shadowstrike/stalker). However the execution is either very poor, costing is atrocious or the unit itself is so crappy it just doesn't work.
I really don't want Wave Serpents / Falcons to become death traps. A typical WS (scatters + maybe stones) is 3 times as much as a rhino. Maybe I'm biased but over 100 is too much to be a death trap for ~150 point Dire Avenger squad (As opposed to 35 rhino for ~160 SM TACs).

That's because skimmers in 4th were far more effective then they were now, which is why most of them are overcosted now (Tau skimmer transports are a good example too). Because even at that cost Tri-Falcon was still a horrible monster of disaster.

Now they are overpriced (except holofields, make them more expensive please! )

Also, that comic is awesome.

Vets, as long as we get doctrines or something in 2014 (just random guess, don't take it as a rumor or anything important) or whenever the IG gets a new codex so I can give troops carapace armour, I don't care, but I will keep my largely useful units with a largely overpriced upgrade simply because I like the upgrade for fluff and appearance purposes.

To be honest, the Battle Conclave. Mainly because I can't see them finding a reason to remove any of the actual Sisters of Battle units.

But as for altering in weird ways, I dunno, because units seem to be pretty clear in their roles. Celestians are the elite Sisters, Repentia are the suicidal charge unit, Battle Sisters are the rank and file, Dominions are the bearers of specialized weapons, Seraphim are the highly mobile unit, and the Retributors are the heavy weapon users. The unit I can see them messing with the most is the Sororitas Command Squad, but that could just be because I'm still not quite used to it as a unit.

Missilespam Long Fangs are probably going to go away. For a while I was afraid that Thunderwolf Cavalry would be deleted, but then GW finally released a box of TWC models.

Pouncey wrote:To be honest, the Battle Conclave. Mainly because I can't see them finding a reason to remove any of the actual Sisters of Battle units.

But as for altering in weird ways, I dunno, because units seem to be pretty clear in their roles. Celestians are the elite Sisters, Repentia are the suicidal charge unit, Battle Sisters are the rank and file, Dominions are the bearers of specialized weapons, Seraphim are the highly mobile unit, and the Retributors are the heavy weapon users. The unit I can see them messing with the most is the Sororitas Command Squad, but that could just be because I'm still not quite used to it as a unit.

They've already ripped out enough units from the SoB's thanks to splitting the Ecchelsiarch and the Ordo Hereticus, now all they can do is add on.

battlewagons and DW termies :( I base 2 of my current armies around them)

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Pouncey wrote:To be honest, the Battle Conclave. Mainly because I can't see them finding a reason to remove any of the actual Sisters of Battle units.

But as for altering in weird ways, I dunno, because units seem to be pretty clear in their roles. Celestians are the elite Sisters, Repentia are the suicidal charge unit, Battle Sisters are the rank and file, Dominions are the bearers of specialized weapons, Seraphim are the highly mobile unit, and the Retributors are the heavy weapon users. The unit I can see them messing with the most is the Sororitas Command Squad, but that could just be because I'm still not quite used to it as a unit.

They've already ripped out enough units from the SoB's thanks to splitting the Ecchelsiarch and the Ordo Hereticus, now all they can do is add on.

That was kinda my thinking. There's nothing to really take away, as in the HQ, we've got 2 types of commanders, plus a related unit for each of them (and 3 special characters), in Elites, we've got 2 units. Troops, 1 unit. Fast Attack, 2 units, and Heavy Support, 3 types of units.

Not a lot of variety of units, and not much to trim down on at all. One thing I could see them doing is taking away the Sororitas Command Squad and letting a Canoness take a squad of Celestians as a Troops unit, and moving the Dialogus and Hospitaller (how do you spell that, anyways? I've seen GW themselves spell it in no less than 3 different ways.) into upgrade options for Celestian Squads. That's not a rumor at all, just something that makes my imagination happy to fantasize about.

But yeah, nothing to take away, really.

Kevin949 wrote:Pariahs...oh wait.

You say that like they can't be made into Crypteks or Praetorians/whatever the scythe guys are.

Lychguards.

And you have a point, but Psykers were being raped all over the place by Pariahs thanks to the null-zone thingy that they had

IHateNids wrote:Lychguards.

And you have a point, but Psykers were being raped all over the place by Pariahs thanks to the null-zone thingy that they had

It would be nice if they had that psychic defense still, but the basic aesthetic and purpose of the unit as "Guys with scythes that hit bad mans" is still more or less intact.

Wound Allocation Shenanigans.

Which I'm 50/50 about.

My chimeras.
If vehicles become more likely to blow up I will cry.

BairdEC wrote:Oh, and what happened to useful grenades?

Grenades are somewhat useful for my Sisters of Battle. Because of grenades, a Battle Sisters Squad that failed to stop a Killa Kan with its meltagun and plasma pistol, and subsequently were charged by it, ended up holding it off in melee. Admittedly, they got lucky and I rolled boxcars for their two invulnerable saves against the wounds that were inflicted by the Killa Kan in round one, but the krak grenades let them immobilize it AND tear its close combat arm off in round two. They survived for the rest of the game because of those grenades - though they never ended up killing it. Of course, if it had been a Deff Dread, they'd've been massacred regardless of the grenades. If they hadn't had the grenades, though, they'd've been helpless against the Killa Kan.

Joey wrote:My chimeras.
If vehicles become more likely to blow up I will cry.

i doubt GW will nerf vehicles to much, those are the big money kits.

G00fySmiley wrote:

Joey wrote:My chimeras.
If vehicles become more likely to blow up I will cry.

i doubt GW will nerf vehicles to much, those are the big money kits.

Not really, finecast are much more profitable.

It has been stated that Codex trumps Rules (GW words) so your not going to lose stuff untill you get a new codex for your army.
Weapons on the other hand might get nurffed like the melta or plasma guns.
Or (I hope and pray) Overwatch might make a come back, or how a charge is made (ie no fracking running then charging in to h2h, 24 inch bloody movent!). Or they may reduce foot troops movement back to four inches (that would be nice).
Either way you'll not lose any thing just your play style.

Ribon Fox wrote:It has been stated that Codex trumps Rules (GW words) so your not going to lose stuff untill you get a new codex for your army.

In OP I said next codex, not 6e rulebook. That being said, rule changes could take something like bikes, transports, etc and radically alter their impact on the game.

Joey wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Joey wrote:My chimeras.
If vehicles become more likely to blow up I will cry.

i doubt GW will nerf vehicles to much, those are the big money kits.

Not really, finecast are much more profitable.

did not know that....

well i also think with the rumour goign around abotu a flyer force org section we'll see a whole bunch of new models and units for armies and gw will want to sell those kits to. i know gw likes finecast, but i still think given how much they charge for vehicles and how few points they cost in codexes gw isn't doing to want that to stop. dedicated transports can cost over a dollar a point.

I would be worried about alterations to Deathwing terminators. Especially since I am just starting to plan out and order a new DW army.

G00fySmiley wrote:

Joey wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Joey wrote:My chimeras.
If vehicles become more likely to blow up I will cry.

i doubt GW will nerf vehicles to much, those are the big money kits.

Not really, finecast are much more profitable.

did not know that....

well i also think with the rumour goign around abotu a flyer force org section we'll see a whole bunch of new models and units for armies and gw will want to sell those kits to. i know gw likes finecast, but i still think given how much they charge for vehicles and how few points they cost in codexes gw isn't doing to want that to stop. dedicated transports can cost over a dollar a point.

A flier force org section?
You mean Fast Attack?

I hope they leave my librarians alone, i have 3

Joey wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Joey wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Joey wrote:My chimeras.
If vehicles become more likely to blow up I will cry.

i doubt GW will nerf vehicles to much, those are the big money kits.

Not really, finecast are much more profitable.

did not know that....

well i also think with the rumour goign around abotu a flyer force org section we'll see a whole bunch of new models and units for armies and gw will want to sell those kits to. i know gw likes finecast, but i still think given how much they charge for vehicles and how few points they cost in codexes gw isn't doing to want that to stop. dedicated transports can cost over a dollar a point.

A flier force org section?
You mean Fast Attack?

it's a just speculation and rumor from supposed leaks

but supposedly bikes are getting a huge buff due to changes and your fast attacks will be jump troops and bikes while your things like jet bikes deff coptas and stormravens get their own spot on the force org. i take that with a huge grain of salt but it has been a pretty consistent rumor among other seemingly less likely options in different postings, but we shall see come whenever 6th is supposedly july but who knows. here's hoping they erratta everythign if that is the case

Brother SRM wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Pariahs...oh wait.

You say that like they can't be made into Crypteks or Praetorians/whatever the scythe guys are.

Uh, those aren't pariahs. I'm not talking about the physical model. Plus, I was making a joke.

Ethereals, I mean those guys are just so awesome right now that if GW ever did anything to them I would cry for a week solid.


On a more serious note, I dont really value any unit over another in either of my armies. Surely if GW ruins one of my units it has to make another good right? right!?

GW doesn't scrap models anymore, they just beat them senseless with a nerf bat cough cough destroyers.

schadenfreude wrote:GW doesn't scrap models anymore, they just beat them senseless with a nerf bat cough cough destroyers.

They still scrap units, and by extension the models as well. See my previous comment on pariahs. Yes, you could use them as something else but they are not technically legal anymore nor do they exist.

Also, I disagree with your nerf comment on the destroyers. They're just as lackluster as they were in the previous codex.

Summoned Daemons. They've been part of Chaos Marines forever, something that really distinguishes them from loyalists.

Nitros14 wrote:Summoned Daemons. They've been part of Chaos Marines forever, something that really distinguishes them from loyalists.

They used to be more than just generic summoned daemons though; time will tell if Chaos players get something with a little more flavor.

Brother SRM wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:Summoned Daemons. They've been part of Chaos Marines forever, something that really distinguishes them from loyalists.

They used to be more than just generic summoned daemons though; time will tell if Chaos players get something with a little more flavor.

Yes, but I think this is the most generic they've ever been (if I remind my 2nd edition correctly).

Stormtroopers, hell even if the vets get moved to elite, that'll screw the Stormies pretty badly.

I have 50 shoota boyz, each individually kustomised to at least some degree, the thought that shootas might be nerfed and slugga boyz made the obvious choice in 6e keeps me up at night.

Thranriel wrote:Ethereals, I mean those guys are just so awesome right now that if GW ever did anything to them I would cry for a week solid.


On a more serious note, I dont really value any unit over another in either of my armies. Surely if GW ruins one of my units it has to make another good right? right!?

Right, GW would never render an entire army utterly useless! Except of corse us poor Daemon players who've been made redundant due to the release of the Herp-Derp Knights... Not to mention Tyranids got even more boned in process...
Yep, GW sure knows how to ruin a girl's day.


More on topic, I'm utterly terrified how the Deep Strike rules will be re-worked. As a Daemon player, any changes could potentially invalidate my army vs everyone else now too.

I'm afraid that I'll lose the wound allocation cheese for Nobz before I have a chance to try it out in an official game.
Also, we'll probably lose some of our more fluffy and strange options like Tankbusta squigs and SAG.

Bobthehero wrote:Stormtroopers, hell even if the vets get moved to elite, that'll screw the Stormies pretty badly.

Stormtroopers are already pretty bad. It would take concentrated effort to make them worse.

By having them in the same category as the vets, you'd be sure that noone would take them, except die hard fans

Joey wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:

Joey wrote:My chimeras.
If vehicles become more likely to blow up I will cry.

i doubt GW will nerf vehicles to much, those are the big money kits.

Not really, finecast are much more profitable.

Also, horde Guard/Orks is much more expensive than Mech Guard/Orks in Trukks/Bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:Stormtroopers, hell even if the vets get moved to elite, that'll screw the Stormies pretty badly.

Stormtroopers are already pretty bad. It would take concentrated effort to make them worse.

Yeah, if anything poor stormies need some kind of boost, they aren't bad, it is just that they are only effective as a suicide unit and 2 out of 3 of their special operations are never taken.

I am all for something to boost stormies (and by extention, DKoK Grenadiers )

Your probably not going to see the removal of vets or deathwing in the core rule set. Unless your codex is up for an update soon, your going to have your current org chart for many years to come. Guard players have a while until vets become elite choices again.

The core rule changes are more likey to cause problems to armies and invalidate units. For example
* If transports are changed to no longer be portable bunkers, IG vet armies will be nurfed
* If transports cause more damage when exploding, MSU razorback will be nurfed.
* If vehicles become easier to destroy, then vehicle spam will be nurfed.
* If infantry move faster then horde armies will be buffed
* If charge reaction rules are in place, shooting armies are buffed.

To make matters more complex, one of these rules is not to be pulled out and placed into 5th.
What happens if horde orks have a threat range of 24" on the assault during a WAAAAGH, but you can stand and shoot at them when they charge? Did they get a nurf or a buff?

Here are my predictions
* GW likes having tanks. I don't expect transports to be made useless
* I expect transports will become that. Transports for the foot soldiers to do the work. I doubt the bunker transport will stick around
* GW likes selling flyers. I expect them to get better rules. The high cost of necron flyers suggest to me that they will have better rule sets justifying the cost.
* GW is likely to try and merge warhammer fantasy and 40k (to my chagrin). This will be done to make the entry into fantasy easier, so they can generate more sales.
* GW wants to sell more models. I expect them to make tyranid's better to cause people to buy tyranid armies for example.

* GW is likely to try and merge warhammer fantasy and 40k (to my chagrin). This will be done to make the entry into fantasy easier, so they can generate more sales.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

Do you mean in terms of having model/scenery cross over kits what can be used under both systems? (ala Daemons, forests etc)

Ratius wrote:

* GW is likely to try and merge warhammer fantasy and 40k (to my chagrin). This will be done to make the entry into fantasy easier, so they can generate more sales.

Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

Do you mean in terms of having model/scenery cross over kits what can be used under both systems? (ala Daemons, forests etc)

from the rumours several rules changes will basically be fantasy rules (ICs challenging in CC, "Charge Responses" etc)

Ratius wrote:Can you elaborate a bit more on this?

Do you mean in terms of having model/scenery cross over kits what can be used under both systems? (ala Daemons, forests etc)

Think of it as a business. You want to generate as much revenue (sales) as possible.

Most people will buy one (or a few) armies and then stop with large purchases. At that point they are buying models every now and then to paint or play with - but the overall expenditure of funds is significantly diminished. After all, armies cost hundreds of dollars where that new model you want only costs 50.

How can you get someone to buy another army, which involves more money being spent? The answer is to get them into another game that you own. By making the rules for 40k and fantasy close, its easy for a 40k player to pick up the fantasy rules set and begin playing. If you already know 90% of the rules, then getting into that game and buying an army is less of a hurdle than starting a brand new game like warmachine.

Its part of the reason that D&D 3.5 did so well. Since you knew the 3.5 rules, you could pick up any roleplaying game that used the 3.5 rules engine (like World of Warcraft fantasy roleplay) and play the game with very few rules changes.

Now, I personally don't like this. I find the fantasy rules concluded and full of issues. I can understand why GW would want to bring the games closer. I just with they brought fantasy closer to 40k instead of the other way around :(


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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:from the rumours several rules changes will basically be fantasy rules (ICs challenging in CC, "Charge Responses" etc)

I've also heard that psychic powers will be made more like 'lores' from fantasy, and they are adding mastery levels like in fantasy.

I just hope they don't go back to a move value for troops. One of their best ideas was to let all infantry move at the same speed, then give fleet/run to some of them.

Ah I see, I was looking at it from a modelling range perspective i.e. some truely bizarre version of Lizardmen in space or Chaos Marines in the old world.
/shudder

Monster Rain wrote:Anyone who had become accustomed to getting an extra attack in CC for a bolt pistol-powerfist combination in 4th Edition knows what I'm talking about.

The bolt pistol - powerfist wasn't invalidated, just less effective.

My powerfisted Aspiring Sorcerers on the other hand...

Brother SRM wrote:I think AP2 is a bit too harsh, but I'm all for S5 inside/S4 outside.

For elite armies like SM, the Rhino is currently just an extra layer of armor that you have to get through. There should be some sort of tradeoff for that extra level of protection.

I agree that AP2 is too tough, it should be AP 3.

Better yet, they could go to armor save modifiers like in WHFB. Then they could almost get rid of AP completely.

Ratius wrote:Ah I see, I was looking at it from a modelling range perspective i.e. some truely bizarre version of Lizardmen in space or Chaos Marines in the old world.
/shudder

Heh. You know one of my favorite things about the fantasy models is they fit so well with 40k ones.

One day earlier this year I wanted a Prince Yuriel for a tourney at my FLGS. There was no way I was going to order one and have it shipped before the touney, so I took some bits I had of high elves mages, dragon riders, human archmage, and high elf chriot to make my own Prince Yuriel.

I guess you could argue that this is also why I love plastics over finecast.

True, some models work great but not whole ranges imho.
Anyways, clarification noted.

AnomanderRake wrote:They're probably going to nerf Fire Dragons so we stop seeing every bloody list built around three Fire Dragon units...

Thank goodness. I never liked Fire Dragons much anyway. Let's have Rangers that can actually do something instead.

Agreed.

Just noticed, Craftworld Tar Valon? Really? Led by Farseer Siuan Sanche?

Hey, if sniper weapons are buffed as to the leaked codex rumors, you might see people taking them just because they would be better anyway. Then armies would consist if fire dragons AND rangers.

biccat wrote:
For elite armies like SM, the Rhino is currently just an extra layer of armor that you have to get through. There should be some sort of tradeoff for that extra level of protection.

I agree that AP2 is too tough, it should be AP 3.

Better yet, they could go to armor save modifiers like in WHFB. Then they could almost get rid of AP completely.

AP3 punishes marines twice as hard as it punishes IG, the two premier tank-spam armies. I'd rather see something like "always wounds on a 3+" or something for explosions, but still allowing armour saves. Otherwise it's basically a big feth you to marines, while not making much of a difference for IG.

* GW likes selling flyers. I expect them to get better rules. The high cost of necron flyers suggest to me that they will have better rule sets justifying the cost.

High cost doesn't really prove much, check cost to points ratio's on Rough Riders for example.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

* GW likes selling flyers. I expect them to get better rules. The high cost of necron flyers suggest to me that they will have better rule sets justifying the cost.

High cost doesn't really prove much, check cost to points ratio's on Rough Riders for example.

and how many people are going out and buying new Rough Riders?

Lobukia wrote:and how many people are going out and buying new Rough Riders?

To be fair I think that's more because nobody on Earth (except me) can stand the models.

I'm really not worried at all about 6th or a hypothetical new codex for my Guard. They've transitioned from 3rd to 4th to 5th, they'll be fine in 6th too.

Marzillius wrote:

AnomanderRake wrote:They're probably going to nerf Fire Dragons so we stop seeing every bloody list built around three Fire Dragon units...

Thank goodness. I never liked Fire Dragons much anyway. Let's have Rangers that can actually do something instead.

Agreed.

Just noticed, Craftworld Tar Valon? Really? Led by Farseer Siuan Sanche?

Wait WHAT! How did I not notice this! Me a HC WoT fanatic! I . . .I. . . feel so dirty. . .

To OP. SInce I play Blood Angels, my Priests. need my Sanguinary Priests.

Lobukia wrote:Given GW's occassional removal of units (or altering them in wierd ways) between editions, which unit(s) are you worried will go the way of the dodo in your 'dex?

For me its sternguard (my current lists are screwed if they go back to being generic veterans or tyranid war vets).

Sometimes I like to a BA all jumpers list. With 5+ cover saves, AP3 negating feel no pain and blast templates being more accurate that could be a possibility.

Lobukia wrote:
and how many people are going out and buying new Rough Riders?

If GW made new models that weren't as old as most of the playerbase people might buy them.

Brother SRM wrote:

Lobukia wrote:and how many people are going out and buying new Rough Riders?

If GW made new models that weren't as old as most of the playerbase people might buy them.

Or, for example, you could make your own out of a few WHFB kits? Most have lances, TNT is easy to make with plastic rod and you just have to remove any Chaosy icons. Done"

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Or, for example, you could make your own out of a few WHFB kits? Most have lances, TNT is easy to make with plastic rod and you just have to remove any Chaosy icons. Done"

I've thought about it, using Empire Outriders and Cadian bodies and such, but it's not the same as dedicated cool models.

Brother SRM wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Or, for example, you could make your own out of a few WHFB kits? Most have lances, TNT is easy to make with plastic rod and you just have to remove any Chaosy icons. Done"

I've thought about it, using Empire Outriders and Cadian bodies and such, but it's not the same as dedicated cool models.

Fair enough. It'd be nice to actually have a good quality model for the unit, rather than having to put my idea of converting Cold One Knights with different arms for shields into acion.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:
Fair enough. It'd be nice to actually have a good quality model for the unit, rather than having to put my idea of converting Cold One Knights with different arms for shields into acion.

Catachans on Cold Ones is my favorite idea for Rough Riders. The only thing goofier than cavalry in the 41st millennium is Rambos riding on dinosaurs.

Brother SRM wrote: The only thing cooler than cavalry in the 41st millennium is Rambos riding on dinosaurs.

Fixed that for you... the DKoK riders are pretty sweet too.

Brother SRM wrote:
Catachans on Cold Ones is my favorite idea for Rough Riders. The only thing goofier than cavalry in the 41st millennium is Rambos riding on dinosaurs.

This right here

Lobukia wrote:

Brother SRM wrote: The only thing cooler than cavalry in the 41st millennium is Rambos riding on dinosaurs.

Fixed that for you... the DKoK riders are pretty sweet too.

It can be goofy and still be absolutely awesome, ridiculousness is what 40k is all about.

The awesome thing about playing Eldar is there are no good units to lose.

DarknessEternal wrote:The awesome thing about playing Eldar is there are no good units to lose.

As bad as things are, they can always get worse. What if special characters needed opponent's consent? Good Bye Eldrad.

Melta-weapon nerf, goodbye fire dragons!

Any strength can wound any toughness on a 6. Nerf to wraithlords.

I can dream up rules to wreck anything!

Wreck Draigowing GK's then.

A model in Terminator Armour strikes at Initiative 1. A weapon with AP 1 or 2 will cause ID regardless of toughness.

Wrecked enough yet?

not that i collect them but GK paladins

terminators but with an additional +4 save, 2+ invun (i think) and force weapons

extremilly OP

1 model per squad can get a 2+ invuln, but it only works in CC and costs 10 points more then a power fist.

FnP also costs 3 power fists to get for the squad on top of an already expensive model.

Monster Rain wrote:My issue with an edition change isn't that units will be invalidated, but wargear options.

Anyone who had become accustomed to getting an extra attack in CC for a bolt pistol-powerfist combination in 4th Edition knows what I'm talking about.

Yea, I am especially worried about this for the Black Templars. The thing they have that help to set them apart are:

Huge Wargear Selection
2 x Cyclone Missile Launchers
70 Pts Typhoon Speeder

I think those things got FaQ for 5th Ed, and are only there more or less because they are a 4th Edition army. I don't want to lose any of them, especially my Artificer Armor/Storm Shield/Lighting Claw on my Commander Marshall. :/

Considering that Vanilla marine Captains can get Artificer armor, SS, and LC too I don't think you will lose those options.

Grey Templar wrote:Considering that Vanilla marine Captains can get Artificer armor, SS, and LC too I don't think you will lose those options.

Their captain is also less expensive, doesn't need to take the inv 4++ thing with storm shield, and grants LD10 to the entire army.

Meaning it's one of the few captains that's still cost effective, unlike 5th editions FAR to expensive captains.

Carnage43 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The awesome thing about playing Eldar is there are no good units to lose.

As bad as things are, they can always get worse. What if special characters needed opponent's consent? Good Bye Eldrad.

Melta-weapon nerf, goodbye fire dragons!

Any strength can wound any toughness on a 6. Nerf to wraithlords.

I can dream up rules to wreck anything!

See, the thing is, that doesn't wreck them. They're already wrecked.

Sure, it makes them worse objectively, but no worse relatively.

YELLOWBLADES wrote:not that i collect them but GK paladins

terminators but with an additional +4 save, 2+ invun (i think) and force weapons

extremilly OP

Okay, you're wrong in a few key ways here. First of all, they don't get an additional 4+ save unless you take an Apothecary, which is expensive. Even so, these guys are where you should be dumping any and all weapons with S8 or higher and low AP values, which also negates their second wounds. The unit as a whole is expensive as sin, and tends to be very slow on the battlefield. Ideally, you can just kite them while occasionally throwing a speedbump in their way. Also, that 2+ invuln is on one model maximum, and is also expensive to take. Bad players can't get over their stickershock at the sight of 2 wound Terminators. Even so, I don't think you read anything in this thread, since you don't use these guys and don't sound like you want them around anyway.

I am hoping 6E takes the SUCK out of my Tau.

I would be ok with this removal.

There's not much left GW can take from Tyranids.

Sternguard.
Vulkan.
Tigurius.

That about covers it. Oh, if Drop Pods ceased to exist I would weep.

-Loki- wrote:There's not much left GW can take from Tyranids.

So say they just decided to remove the Tervigon and only leave hald of the box for the Tyrranofex...

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

-Loki- wrote:There's not much left GW can take from Tyranids.

So say they just decided to remove the Tervigon and only leave hald of the box for the Tyrranofex...

I was talking more about making units worse, since GW haven't been on a 'remove units entirely' kick for a long time, outside of Pariahs in the Necron book. Lately, books have been about 'squeeze in as many units as possible, even if half of them are terrible'.

-Loki- wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

-Loki- wrote:There's not much left GW can take from Tyranids.

So say they just decided to remove the Tervigon and only leave hald of the box for the Tyrranofex...

I was talking more about making units worse, since GW haven't been on a 'remove units entirely' kick for a long time, outside of Pariahs in the Necron book. Lately, books have been about 'squeeze in as many units as possible, even if half of them are terrible'.

Agreed

I'm thinking they're going to nerf Rune Priests. Space Wolves don't trust arcane magic, yet the Rune Priest is arguably their best HQ. It doesn't fit in with their fluff at all. My guess is that Jaws will be errataed so that it rolls to hit and that it removes one wound from multiwound models instead of removing all of them.

It would suck for Wolves players, but it could lead to other HQ choices becoming more viable.

-Loki- wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

-Loki- wrote:There's not much left GW can take from Tyranids.

So say they just decided to remove the Tervigon and only leave hald of the box for the Tyrranofex...

I was talking more about making units worse, since GW haven't been on a 'remove units entirely' kick for a long time, outside of Pariahs in the Necron book. Lately, books have been about 'squeeze in as many units as possible, even if half of them are terrible'.

Make Tervigons stop spawning and cancel any gaunts altogether, counting as a KP, whenever they roll a 3 or lower on any dice.

On 3d6? That'd be broken, meaning a triple 1 is needed (something like a 1/64 chane of it happening I think)

IHateNids wrote:Ok, AP3 then. But deffinately S5 in, S4 out

You only want this cause we all play mech spam don't you. Whereas you and the Elf play footsloggers. I still think that ap3 is harsh. Maybe ap5. and the D6 idea with no saves would affect marines to much and things like orks to little.

IHateNids wrote:On 3d6? That'd be broken, meaning a triple 1 is needed (something like a 1/64 chane of it happening I think)

Triple one? You just have to roll a single number below 3 to lose it forever.

I didn't say all?

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

IHateNids wrote:On 3d6? That'd be broken, meaning a triple 1 is needed (something like a 1/64 chane of it happening I think)

Triple one? You just have to roll a single number below 3 to lose it forever.

I didn't say all?

No, you didn't

redkeyboard wrote:

IHateNids wrote:Ok, AP3 then. But definately S5 in, S4 out

You only want this cause we all play mech spam don't you. Whereas you and the Elf play footsloggers.

That has nothing to do with it. I hate the idea that people inside an exploding vehicle can survive

I still think that ap3 is harsh. Maybe ap5. and the D6 idea with no saves would affect marines to much and things like orks to little

Got any other ideas?

IHateNids wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

IHateNids wrote:On 3d6? That'd be broken, meaning a triple 1 is needed (something like a 1/64 chane of it happening I think)

Triple one? You just have to roll a single number below 3 to lose it forever.

I didn't say all?

No, you didn't

So what did I say?

I have a horrid habit of putting Question Marks at the end of everything, so it might be lost in translation.

StoneRaizer wrote:I'm thinking they're going to nerf Rune Priests. Space Wolves don't trust arcane magic, yet the Rune Priest is arguably their best HQ. It doesn't fit in with their fluff at all.

It does fit with their fluff.

Their fluff just doesn't make sense.

biccat wrote:

StoneRaizer wrote:I'm thinking they're going to nerf Rune Priests. Space Wolves don't trust arcane magic, yet the Rune Priest is arguably their best HQ. It doesn't fit in with their fluff at all.

It does fit with their fluff.

Their fluff just doesn't make sense.

I always assumed their fluff was in denial. I mean "Energies from the Planet and Russ?"

And no one's really tried correcting them, because they bash people in the face that try to.

With the release of the Storm Talon, GW appears to be trying to take away the pride of Space Marine armies.


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biccat wrote:

StoneRaizer wrote:I'm thinking they're going to nerf Rune Priests. Space Wolves don't trust arcane magic, yet the Rune Priest is arguably their best HQ. It doesn't fit in with their fluff at all.

It does fit with their fluff.

Their fluff just doesn't make sense.

This is fairly true. The Space Wolves tend to break any and all established fluff. Including their own.

redkeyboard wrote:

IHateNids wrote:Ok, AP3 then. But deffinately S5 in, S4 out

You only want this cause we all play mech spam don't you. Whereas you and the Elf play footsloggers. I still think that ap3 is harsh. Maybe ap5. and the D6 idea with no saves would affect marines to much and things like orks to little.

This is what "wrecked" looks like. Power armor ain't gonna help.

BairdEC wrote:
This is what "wrecked" looks like. Power armor ain't gonna help.

Thank you, someone making sense at last

And Power Armour isn't going to help because...? The tank wreck looks like that because it explodes from the inside. It's not designed to keep together after an internal explosion. Relative to the Power Armour, though, the explosion is external, which is the very thing Power Armour is designed to protect from.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:With the release of the Storm Talon, GW appears to be trying to take away the pride of Space Marine armies.

What exactly does this mean?

BairdEC wrote:
This is what "wrecked" looks like. Power armor ain't gonna help.

When your armor is as thick as the tank you're inside, I think it's a possibility you'll survive. I agree again that riding in transports should cause more harm when they explode, but losing the whole squad to the explosion should only happen when your dice absolutely positively screw you.

Ok, here's something: The unit in the Transport takes 2D6 S6 AP4 hits. External Explosion is 2D6" S4 AP5 hits what it covers

IHateNids wrote:Ok, here's something: The unit in the Transport takes 2D6 S6 AP4 hits. External Explosion is 2D6" S4 AP5 hits what it covers

Make the inside S5 and the external 1D6"; having the explosions be that enormous would just make you want to put your guys in vehicles even more. If one Trukk in the middle of my army exploded and killed 30 boyz I'd be pretty unhappy.

Meh. I dont know if this will happen but I hope they dont nerf SG or DC. That would be bad.

What caused the damage to that Bradley wasn't an explosion, but a penetrating (RPG?) hit that started an ammunition fire, resulting in the catastrophic kill. IIRC, a few guys did manage to bail out before it was too late, which is what I think of the save representing. Unfortunately, power armor isn't going to save a trooper from a fire that melts his armor. Standing in a burning combat vehicle would be like standing in a volcanic eruption. Maybe space marines can do that, but if so, I've missed that bit of fluff.

BairdEC wrote:What caused the damage to that Bradley wasn't an explosion, but a penetrating (RPG?) hit that started an ammunition fire, resulting in the catastrophic kill. IIRC, a few guys did manage to bail out before it was too late, which is what I think of the save representing. Unfortunately, power armor isn't going to save a trooper from a fire that melts his armor. Standing in a burning combat vehicle would be like standing in a volcanic eruption. Maybe space marines can do that, but if so, I've missed that bit of fluff.

Ammunition / fuel explosion IS what the Destroyed - Explodes result is supposed to show.

If the explosion is sufficient to destroy the aluminum-steel armor on a Bradley and make the frame totally unrecognizable, then power armor will not save you.

BairdEC wrote:What caused the damage to that Bradley wasn't an explosion, but a penetrating (RPG?) hit that started an ammunition fire, resulting in the catastrophic kill. IIRC, a few guys did manage to bail out before it was too late, which is what I think of the save representing. Unfortunately, power armor isn't going to save a trooper from a fire that melts his armor. Standing in a burning combat vehicle would be like standing in a volcanic eruption. Maybe space marines can do that, but if so, I've missed that bit of fluff.

They kinda can! First the power suits are internally sealed so that fire damage to the lungs is less likely to occur, and than there's the glands that enable them to resist acid and fire damage to the skin because of the way it works.

Not to mention Power armor itself can resist HEAVY FLAME THROWERS, y'know, the one's that are hot enough to melt through stormtrooper/firewarrior armor?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BairdEC wrote:What caused the damage to that Bradley wasn't an explosion, but a penetrating (RPG?) hit that started an ammunition fire, resulting in the catastrophic kill. IIRC, a few guys did manage to bail out before it was too late, which is what I think of the save representing. Unfortunately, power armor isn't going to save a trooper from a fire that melts his armor. Standing in a burning combat vehicle would be like standing in a volcanic eruption. Maybe space marines can do that, but if so, I've missed that bit of fluff.

They kinda can! First the power suits are internally sealed so that fire damage to the lungs is less likely to occur, and than there's the glands that enable them to resist acid and fire damage to the skin because of the way it works.

Not to mention Power armor itself can resist HEAVY FLAME THROWERS, y'know, the one's that are hot enough to melt through stormtrooper/firewarrior armor?

I'm going to counter the bit I underlined: Flamestorm Cannons

Unit1126PLL wrote:

BairdEC wrote:What caused the damage to that Bradley wasn't an explosion, but a penetrating (RPG?) hit that started an ammunition fire, resulting in the catastrophic kill. IIRC, a few guys did manage to bail out before it was too late, which is what I think of the save representing. Unfortunately, power armor isn't going to save a trooper from a fire that melts his armor. Standing in a burning combat vehicle would be like standing in a volcanic eruption. Maybe space marines can do that, but if so, I've missed that bit of fluff.

Ammunition / fuel explosion IS what the Destroyed - Explodes result is supposed to show.

If the explosion is sufficient to destroy the aluminum-steel armor on a Bradley and make the frame totally unrecognizable, then power armor will not save you.

I don't think you're arguing here, but a quick clarification, if I may.

While RPG's and other HEAT/HEAP (shaped charge) rounds do explode, it's not the explosion that does the damage. That type of warhead creates a molten metal slug that burns through the armor and, once inside, bounces around the interior. Fuel and ammo hits are almost certain to ignite if struck by the slug. HESH/HEP warheads are also explosive, but don't form a jet. They smash against the side of the target and blow chunks from the inside layer (spalling), which makes them great for use against bunkers. Fragmentation is a happy side effect of both of these, but the fragmentation is not responsible for the major damage to the vehicle hit.

Thanks Baird, we aren't unfamiliar with how shells work XD

All I'm trying to say is not a great lot will survive inside an exploding tank

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

BairdEC wrote:What caused the damage to that Bradley wasn't an explosion, but a penetrating (RPG?) hit that started an ammunition fire, resulting in the catastrophic kill. IIRC, a few guys did manage to bail out before it was too late, which is what I think of the save representing. Unfortunately, power armor isn't going to save a trooper from a fire that melts his armor. Standing in a burning combat vehicle would be like standing in a volcanic eruption. Maybe space marines can do that, but if so, I've missed that bit of fluff.

They kinda can! First the power suits are internally sealed so that fire damage to the lungs is less likely to occur, and than there's the glands that enable them to resist acid and fire damage to the skin because of the way it works.

Not to mention Power armor itself can resist HEAVY FLAME THROWERS, y'know, the one's that are hot enough to melt through stormtrooper/firewarrior armor?

Can space marines handle hugs from a eldar avatar?

Still, even though the suits are sealed, they still have weak points- joints. The flexibility required to move means that the armor does have weak spots, just not many. The other aspect that comes to mind is that if the fire is hot enough, it doesn't matter how thick the shell is. Have you ever used a dutch oven? Same principle.


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Yeah. no problem I blame Hollywood for most people's gross misunderstanding of how weapons work.

That, and Call of Duty

Brother SRM wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:With the release of the Storm Talon, GW appears to be trying to take away the pride of Space Marine armies.

What exactly does this mean?

It means that Games Workshop managed to one-up the Stormraven and created the new ugliest model in 40K history.

Seriously. A Marine in a Squat Hovercar would have been better than the Stormtalon. Like one person has said, it's so horribly engineered that it would never fly, and then it loses out by being so ugly that the "rule of cool" doesn't even save it.

Literally the biggest disappointment in history if you're a fan of Space Marines. I can't even figure out how this model got greenlit for production. Or even made it past the conceptual artwork stage. So yes, that model is an embarrassment to the entire Space Marine product range.

Veteran Sergeant wrote: means that Games Workshop managed to one-up the Stormraven and created the new ugliest model in 40K history.

Seriously. A Marine in a Squat Hovercar would have been better than the Stormtalon. Like one person has said, it's so horribly engineered that it would never fly, and then it loses out by being so ugly that the "rule of cool" doesn't even save it.

Literally the biggest disappointment in history if you're a fan of Space Marines. I can't even figure out how this model got greenlit for production. Or even made it past the conceptual artwork stage. So yes, that model is an embarrassment to the entire Space Marine product range.

So don't buy it? I fail to see the problem whether you like it or not. Even if you think it's an atrocious model, it doesn't ruin the good Space Marine models.

You're taking this a bit too seriously man. It was a joke. GFL.

Transports: Strength 4 AP -, inside and outside. Nerfs them a bit, but not enough to make them rolling coffins. Seriously, S5 would make transports absolutley useless, especially for Eldar and Space Marine armies. And the explosion and AP value would be ridicolous. No one would ever use transports again.

So, uh, yeah.

I've got some models I use as Sternguard Veterans, though technically the models are Dark Angels Veterans, and I'd hate to see bolter-wielding veterans removed entirely. But I can't see GW doing that after going to the trouble of making Sternguard vets in Finecast. A nerf I could probably deal with just fine, though; it wouldn't break my gameplay when I do use them.

Leman Russ Battle Tanks, Valkyries, Meltaguns, Hydra's, IG veterans, Stormtroopers,

I think I'm safe.

Btw, when does 6e come out anyway?

August sometime (AFAIK)

Thanks. I'll have to save up... again. Makes me wonder if I should buy anything before the new addition.

IHateNids wrote:August sometime (AFAIK)

July 7th actually, making is six and a half weeks away.

E: Nevermind. Not worth replying to a rude post.

Any good fluff.

Carnage43 wrote:

IHateNids wrote:August sometime (AFAIK)

July 7th actually, making is six and a half weeks away.

That's great (not). I'm playing in a tourney the weekend before 6th (I'm not sure why I think that is a bad thing)

Another model/unit I'm a little worried about is the Master of the Forge. I really like my 30 sternguard 3 ironclad list, but no MoF (or different SA) and that's all gone.

I doubt that will get taken away.

If the GK and BA codexs are anything to go by, normal dreads(and IClads) will move to heavy support and Venerables will remain as elites. Personally I think Venerable should just be an upgrade for all types of dreadnoughts.

Brother SRM wrote:E: Nevermind. Not worth replying to a rude post.

+1 for that sir.

Brother SRM wrote:When your armor is as thick as the tank you're inside, I think it's a possibility you'll survive.

Space Marines aren't AV11.

biccat wrote:
Space Marines aren't AV11.

No they're not, but their armor is supposed to be really tough. They can save against autocannon shots for a reason, and that kind of armor should better protect you than flak armor if you're inside a vehicle.

On the subject of SM Power Armor vs. Tank Armor, there's a weird disparity caused by the AP system.

For example, a Manticore is VASTLY more dangerous to a Land Raider than to a Marine, being Str 10 Ap 4 Ordnance Blast.

OTOH, a Lasgun is literally infinitely more dangerous to a Marine than a Land Raider, since it needs an 11 on a d6 to perturb the Land Raider, but only a 5 or 6 on the D6 to possibly kill a Marine.

Weird, that.

Unit1126PLL wrote:On the subject of SM Power Armor vs. Tank Armor, there's a weird disparity caused by the AP system.

For example, a Manticore is VASTLY more dangerous to a Land Raider than to a Marine, being Str 10 Ap 4 Ordnance Blast.

OTOH, a Lasgun is literally infinitely more dangerous to a Marine than a Land Raider, since it needs an 11 on a d6 to perturb the Land Raider, but only a 5 or 6 on the D6 to possibly kill a Marine.

Weird, that.

Yes, it's a naff mechanic that really needs to be re-evaluated. I'd be happy with getting rid of armour saves and armour values and armour penetration altogether and simply have a single Defense stat for all models.

I like save modifiers like Fantasy has much better.

Str 3 - normal save
Str 4 - -1
Str 5 - -2

etc.

So a Space Marine shot by a lasgun would get his normal save, but if hit by a Manticore he would lose his armor save. Or if he were hit by a heavy bolter he'd be saving on a 5+.

Cover of course would work differently (or you could have the same cover system, but start reducing the save for cover after the armor save has been reduced away).

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:On the subject of SM Power Armor vs. Tank Armor, there's a weird disparity caused by the AP system.

For example, a Manticore is VASTLY more dangerous to a Land Raider than to a Marine, being Str 10 Ap 4 Ordnance Blast.

OTOH, a Lasgun is literally infinitely more dangerous to a Marine than a Land Raider, since it needs an 11 on a d6 to perturb the Land Raider, but only a 5 or 6 on the D6 to possibly kill a Marine.

Weird, that.

Yes, it's a naff mechanic that really needs to be re-evaluated. I'd be happy with getting rid of armour saves and armour values and armour penetration altogether and simply have a single Defense stat for all models.

Maybe this is what all those rumors about moving 6e closer to WHFB are about. Kind of a hybrid 40k 2e and WHFB system (which would be fine by me... much simpler back then, just subtract).


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Grey Templar wrote:I doubt that will get taken away.

If the GK and BA codexs are anything to go by, normal dreads(and IClads) will move to heavy support and Venerables will remain as elites. Personally I think Venerable should just be an upgrade for all types of dreadnoughts.

I would be thrilled with dreads as heavies (maybe MoF allows them to be elite in 6e?) and +1 on Ven as upgrade (like in 4e).

Brother SRM wrote:No they're not, but their armor is supposed to be really tough. They can save against autocannon shots for a reason, and that kind of armor should better protect you than flak armor if you're inside a vehicle.

Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

biccat wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:No they're not, but their armor is supposed to be really tough. They can save against autocannon shots for a reason, and that kind of armor should better protect you than flak armor if you're inside a vehicle.

Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

It is not the explosion that damaged the vehicle. It is the vehicle being damaged that resulted in the explosion not the other way around

redkeyboard wrote:

biccat wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:No they're not, but their armor is supposed to be really tough. They can save against autocannon shots for a reason, and that kind of armor should better protect you than flak armor if you're inside a vehicle.

Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

It is not the explosion that damaged the vehicle. It is the vehicle being damaged that resulted in the explosion not the other way around

Yes, the damage resulted in the ammunition / fuel of the vehicle being cooked off.

This explosion was of such magnitude that (for example) the Land Raider's adamantine and ceramic hull was completely shattered, and it's frame reduced to a flaming, unrecognizeable hulk, like that Bradley.

Why would Marines be practically unscathed, again?

biccat wrote:Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Granted it will only glance on a 4, and require a 5 or 6 to penetrate, but the point stands. Power armour is at least as resilient as armoured vehicles, and in some cases more resilient.

I always chocked it up to luck that the SM can survive a wound from heavy AT armies.
Besides who is to say the AC shell hit them? It may have hit the ground and exploded in the middle.

Kaldor wrote:

biccat wrote:Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Granted it will only glance on a 4, and require a 5 or 6 to penetrate, but the point stands. Power armour is at least as resilient as armoured vehicles, and in some cases more resilient.

Actually, you're wrong. A Lasgun, for example, will score a hit on the front armor of a Rhino NEVER% of the time, while a suit of power armor will shrug off a lasgun blast 66% of the time.

Granted, it will only wound on a 5, but the point stands. Power armor is not even in the same protective class as tank armor, and can hardly even be compared.

See? It works both ways.

Kaldor wrote:Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Autocannon vs. Rhino: "wound" (glance/pen) 4+, injure on a 3+ = 33% chance to hurt the vehicle.
Autocannon vs. SM: wound 2+, kill 2- = 55% chance to hurt the marine.

Nobz i can see them screwing my wound shenannigans

biccat wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Autocannon vs. Rhino: "wound" (glance/pen) 4+, injure on a 3+ = 33% chance to hurt the vehicle.
Autocannon vs. SM: wound 2+, kill 2- = 55% chance to hurt the marine.

Autocannon shots are actually kind of tricky to calculate on vehicles. Your shooting 2 shots, so what happens if the first shot destroys the vehicle -- should the second shot still count? (the answer is no) Secondly, what if you just stun the vehicle? Isn't that less dangerous than failing a save on a marine? 1 wound infantry are kind of all-or nothing for taking shots.

If your going to try and take the chances of a rhino being hurt by an autocannon, the values look something like this.
Assuming a non-TL AC shot by BS 4, this is what your odds are on having effects.
(per shot averages done though 100,000 simulations)
Total Shots Hit...........66.78%
Total Shots Missed....33.22%

Total Plinks................33.48%
Total Glances............10.97%
Total Penetrates........22.32%
Total Effects..............33.29%

(per 2 shots each turn)
Shaken Hits..................17.54%
Stunned Hits.................10.74%
Weapon Destroyed.......10.70%
Immobilized...................10.80%
Destroyed.......................7.17%
Exploded.........................7.15%
Destroyed or Exploded...14.32%

An autocannon shot has a 17.8% chance of killing the marine. Two of the shots has ~31% of killing the marine -- roughly twice the chance than killing a rhino, but the marine can't suffer ill effects (stunned, shaken, etc)
- Note the MEQ oods are a percentage I came up with in my head, and I would not bet my life on them The Rhino odds are quite solid.

Now bring Xeno weapons into the equation - BS3 Str10 AP4 on the Tyrannofex's Rupture Cannon - FAR more likely to affect the vehicle, but the exact same chance of killing the marine.

I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

loota boy wrote:I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

Why does it look like it might happen? What possible signs are out there?

Brother SRM wrote:

loota boy wrote:I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

Why does it look like it might happen? What possible signs are out there?

Obviously we have a Astrologist amongst us

Anyway, can we get back on topic, rather than discussing wrecked results and the AP system?

I am worried about the new AP system
(you guys can resume your conversation now)

When they remove my railguns i will throw my suitcase with tau out of my 6 floor high window and just go play yugi-yo or magic the gathering or whatever i am supposed to play.

You say when as if you are sure to lose them them,

Kaldor wrote:

biccat wrote:Their armor is weaker than the armor of the vehicle they're in that just expoded. If the explosion is enough to damage the vehicle, I'd suggest it would be enough to damage the Space Marine.

Actually, you're wrong. An autocannon, for example, will score a hit on the front armour of a Rhino 50% of the time, while a suit of power armour will shrug off an autocannon shell 66% of the time.

Granted it will only glance on a 4, and require a 5 or 6 to penetrate, but the point stands. Power armour is at least as resilient as armoured vehicles, and in some cases more resilient.

Power armour will fail to lasguns a third of the time. So, not really.

Brother SRM wrote:

loota boy wrote:I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

Why does it look like it might happen? What possible signs are out there?

I've seen it on nearly every speculation thread for the next ork codex, but i'm not sure it has any basis to it. It just seems to come up at an alarming rate.

loota boy wrote:
I've seen it on nearly every speculation thread for the next ork codex, but i'm not sure it has any basis to it. It just seems to come up at an alarming rate.

What speculation threads for the next codex? I haven't seen a single one, and I trawl forums like these entirely more often than I should.

I'm afraid I'll lose tactical squads for my marines.

/sarcasm.

One thing that won't change that much is marines.
From edition to edition, the one standard is that a marine with a boltgun is still a marine with a boltgun.

The rest? My Eldar have changed little over the years apart from points costs (since late RT - 1990 or so).

The rest? My Eldar have changed little over the years apart from points costs (since late RT - 1990 or so).

Eldar shuriken guns did get nerfed hard after 2nd, though dire avengers did at least gain a 18" gun in 4th edition.

For chaos.... what else can they take from us? i can't think of one thing that would dramatically affect my army.

Sunoccard wrote:For chaos.... what else can they take from us? i can't think of one thing that would dramatically affect my army.

Since plague marines are the mainstay of any chaos army, Chaos would be completely busted if PMs became drastically more expensive, or unable to take Melta guns.

Joey wrote:

Sunoccard wrote:For chaos.... what else can they take from us? i can't think of one thing that would dramatically affect my army.

Since plague marines are the mainstay of any chaos army, Chaos would be completely busted if PMs became drastically more expensive, or unable to take Melta guns.

Hopefully we see a Phil Kelly rework of the forces of Chaos in 6e.

admiral9 wrote:When they remove my railguns i will throw my suitcase with tau out of my 6 floor high window and just go play yugi-yo or magic the gathering or whatever i am supposed to play.

Don't throw it out that window, just post it to me

On the tank 'splodey thing - all these people moaning that ap3 is so terrible for marines, but little affects not-marines, and that it should be ap5 - well that just ruins every not-marine armies day, making MEQs that much better, and that much more durable. (Why should marines be so special? screw your marines!) I'd be fine with a Str5 in / St4 out hit, but applying AP to it would ultimately end up one sided.

On topic - nerfing Feel No Pain in 6e would hurt, being oooh 95% of my main army relies on it for their only save normally.
As for the next dex? I dunno, For DE going by the previous release schedule, I'm not sure I need worry for another 10 years.
Tau are due, but can't really go down much at this point, having been hurt through the last few editions by general rules anyway. Being remade to fit as a shooty army in a melee-centric envoirenment would be nice, and a good chunk of the wargears invalidated already
Them reducing the range on all the tau weapons maybe?

Ovion wrote:Them reducing the range on all the tau weapons maybe?

Don't post that!! (you're giving them ideas!!)

Ovion wrote:Being remade to fit as a shooty army in a melee-centric envoirenment would be nice, and a good chunk of the wargears invalidated already

Dunno what game you're playing. 40k is shooting-centric, the reason Tau aren't very good ATM is that they're the second oldest Codex, not that shooting sucks.

My worried my Eldar won't have over half my units be useless! How am I supposed to play the game when I have CHOICES??

loota boy wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

loota boy wrote:I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

Why does it look like it might happen? What possible signs are out there?

I've seen it on nearly every speculation thread for the next ork codex, but i'm not sure it has any basis to it. It just seems to come up at an alarming rate.

It probably comes up because thats where Lootas belong. Flash Gits belong in Elites.

Yeah, no Kan wall back up by Lootas for you

The viability of transports, or a growing disparity between opentopped transports and survivability.

I play DE, and though I understand the general hate towards the mechanized meta, I would hate for the meta to swing away from that in such a way that invalidated the manner in which DE are designed to work.

The change from 4th made skimmers easier to hit in CC than before, as well as prevented them from hovering over terrain as they used to, but with vehicles doing less damage than before, this helped to compensate.

I'm worried about changes to "fix" transport spam that "fix the wrong armies, and leave others untouched. Much the same way that the changes to 8th ed that people hoped would "fix" demons and VC (fear, magic, step up, steadfast, BSBs,) instead nerfed VC to near unplayability and left demons practically untouched. I fear a change to vehicles that somehow nerfs all transports but for Grey Knights, for instance.

I haven't tested how much it would change things, but I am curious how a Vehicle damage chart that incorporated more than 6 steps might play out. For instance a 7th place that increased the damage to passengers, or nearby troops, or increased the blast radius.

On the flip side i hope they improve flash gitz i really want to take some even if its just giving them BS3


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On the flip side i hope they improve flash gitz i really want to take some even if its just giving them BS3

If CC becomes even less important than now then all those genestealers I have will have to go back in cupboard along with my tyrant.

If snipers do get to pick put characters then orks boyz are stuffed - lose the power klaw and the remaining 19 boyz doesn't really scare anybody. Same for commissars in a blob army.

Ovion wrote:

admiral9 wrote:When they remove my railguns i will throw my suitcase with tau out of my 6 floor high window and just go play yugi-yo or magic the gathering or whatever i am supposed to play.

Don't throw it out that window, just post it to me

On the tank 'splodey thing - all these people moaning that ap3 is so terrible for marines, but little affects not-marines, and that it should be ap5 - well that just ruins every not-marine armies day, making MEQs that much better, and that much more durable. (Why should marines be so special? screw your marines!) I'd be fine with a Str5 in / St4 out hit, but applying AP to it would ultimately end up one sided.

On topic - nerfing Feel No Pain in 6e would hurt, being oooh 95% of my main army relies on it for their only save normally.
As for the next dex? I dunno, For DE going by the previous release schedule, I'm not sure I need worry for another 10 years.
Tau are due, but can't really go down much at this point, having been hurt through the last few editions by general rules anyway. Being remade to fit as a shooty army in a melee-centric envoirenment would be nice, and a good chunk of the wargears invalidated already
Them reducing the range on all the tau weapons maybe?

Do you really want me to torch my tau that bad? i have plenty of glue right here!
Thing is if you nerve only one part of the extremely delicate tau their whole play style gets destroyed. (Except ethereals and vespids aas they are already ruined)

Let's see.... I am worried about pretty much every piece of my fluffy harlequin army. Overwatch might make them unplayable, a new FoC chart might make them unbuyable in the numbers I use, veil of tears might get nerfed, cover save nerf might make my pathfinders unreliable. On the other hand, everything might get better, so who knows.

With my SoB I'm mostly worried about a nerf to FnP, since several units I use rely on it for protection (repentia, conclave).

All my Tanks.

My top 3:

Nerfing Kans
Nerfing/removing Deff Rolla
Nerfing/removing KFF.

other than that, maybe reducing the max unit size for my boyz.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ovion wrote:Being remade to fit as a shooty army in a melee-centric envoirenment would be nice, and a good chunk of the wargears invalidated already

Dunno what game you're playing. 40k is shooting-centric, the reason Tau aren't very good ATM is that they're the second oldest Codex, not that shooting sucks.

OK, let me expand a little - most armies are capable in CC and at shooting, but generally, things end up in CC at some point and can hit back as hard as they take, with a variety of toys to play with in melee. Tau don't.

Tau fall over if touched in CC, and while they have high powered weapons, not very much of it is high ap, and since everything got the ability to run, they don't have either the weight of fire or the accuracy to drop the enemy before it arrives.

It being really old means the costs are high, meaning that it's 'outclassed', and limited in 'viable' options, and the points -vs- power ratio is quite high, but hey.

(It's a little rambling... I think I lost my point somewhere... Tau die in CC and everything is better at it than them, while generally being on par in regards to shooting. In a game where most things hit hardest and best in CC, and even CC armies shoot relatively well.)

admiral9 wrote:

Ovion wrote:

admiral9 wrote:When they remove my railguns i will throw my suitcase with tau out of my 6 floor high window and just go play yugi-yo or magic the gathering or whatever i am supposed to play.

Don't throw it out that window, just post it to me

On the tank 'splodey thing - all these people moaning that ap3 is so terrible for marines, but little affects not-marines, and that it should be ap5 - well that just ruins every not-marine armies day, making MEQs that much better, and that much more durable. (Why should marines be so special? screw your marines!) I'd be fine with a Str5 in / St4 out hit, but applying AP to it would ultimately end up one sided.

On topic - nerfing Feel No Pain in 6e would hurt, being oooh 95% of my main army relies on it for their only save normally.
As for the next dex? I dunno, For DE going by the previous release schedule, I'm not sure I need worry for another 10 years.
Tau are due, but can't really go down much at this point, having been hurt through the last few editions by general rules anyway. Being remade to fit as a shooty army in a melee-centric envoirenment would be nice, and a good chunk of the wargears invalidated already
Them reducing the range on all the tau weapons maybe?

Do you really want me to torch my tau that bad? i have plenty of glue right here!
Thing is if you nerve only one part of the extremely delicate tau their whole play style gets destroyed. (Except ethereals and vespids aas they are already ruined)

Not torch, post to me.

Nothing is really worrying me at the moment. My IG list is too scattered to really get hurt by any specific unit or build getting nerfed and Daemons are looking like they only stand to benefit from 6E both in rulebook and in future codex.

Grey Templar wrote:

loota boy wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

loota boy wrote:I really hope that lootas don't get moved to heavy support, but it looks like it may happen...

Why does it look like it might happen? What possible signs are out there?

I've seen it on nearly every speculation thread for the next ork codex, but i'm not sure it has any basis to it. It just seems to come up at an alarming rate.

It probably comes up because thats where Lootas belong. Flash Gits belong in Elites.

Yeah, no Kan wall back up by Lootas for you

More like no long ranged support for any ork army except green tide, and sometimes biker gangs. Most ork lists revolve around what you put in your heavy support, the exceptions being green tide, which can take big gunz if it needs support, or biker gangs who are fast enough to not worry about it and usually don't have the points for it anyway. If there was a suitable alternative, then fine, move them. But if you just swap 'um with gitz, then you will end up with very few ork armies that have any long ranged threat whatsoever. And lets be honest, we don't need to nerf half of the competitive ork builds (the two most popular, and arguably most effective) and make the loota a seldom-seen choice just because it's in the wrong slot. Orks are still strong, but you don't see them sweeping up all the tournys to a degree that they need a nerf, and lootas are quite balanced as well. If you can't put two casualties on a squad of lootas and run them off the table, then that's your problem. No nead to gimp a good unit just because you think that "it's in the wrong slot."

SRM- I'm not talking about any recent threads, but everytime this year that they have shown up and i do look into them, it always seems to come up.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The rest? My Eldar have changed little over the years apart from points costs (since late RT - 1990 or so).

Eldar shuriken guns did get nerfed hard after 2nd, though dire avengers did at least gain a 18" gun in 4th edition.

They have gone from ultra-killy-better than stormbolters to nerfguns, true - but a guardian with a shuricat is STILL a guardian with a shuricat was my point.
(and the old eldar 'lasgun' is just a different, older style of shuriken catapult).

Unlike Marine scouts with them who became marine scouts with a different looking bolter.

My Necrons are not likely to lose anything in 6th Ed., even without considering the theory that the Necron codex was written with 6th Ed. in mind. All of the things that hurt Necrons the worst are staples of 5th Ed.:

1) the mech-dependent meta hurts Necrons, who do not have any cheap transports.
2) the overabundance of Melta gives everyone but Necrons a boon, as only one (very expensive) unit in the codex can take a Melta option.
3) useful USRs are almost nonexistent in the Necron codex, so the more of these things that go away, the better.
3) FOC is a constant struggle because nearly all of the good units in the Necron codex are currently in the same slot.
4) psychic powers
5) sweeping advance
6) vehicle damage chart modifiers hurts Necrons, as half out weapons are AP-

If even two of these are lost, then Necrons will be up there with SW & GK for codex strength.

Kanz, but to be honest I hope they make it so you can play more competitive with foot lists.

I'm afraid of a drastic change in design for Crisis Suits whenever that fabled Tau codex comes around the corner.

I'm also afraid of a change of synergy and play methods for the aforementioned suits.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:On the subject of SM Power Armor vs. Tank Armor, there's a weird disparity caused by the AP system.

For example, a Manticore is VASTLY more dangerous to a Land Raider than to a Marine, being Str 10 Ap 4 Ordnance Blast.

OTOH, a Lasgun is literally infinitely more dangerous to a Marine than a Land Raider, since it needs an 11 on a d6 to perturb the Land Raider, but only a 5 or 6 on the D6 to possibly kill a Marine.

Weird, that.

Yes, it's a naff mechanic that really needs to be re-evaluated. I'd be happy with getting rid of armour saves and armour values and armour penetration altogether and simply have a single Defense stat for all models.

It's simply another abstract mechanic in a game full of the. You see similar effects even in RTS games, where you'll see a take fire at another tank and do significant damage while the next moment it'll fire at infantry and do barely any damage. It's simply there to make sure weapons fill the roles they're meant to fill, Your example of the Manticore is a good one. It's meant to be good against vehicles and light to medium infantry, but not heavy infantry. While not perfect, it's a common enough mechanic in strategy games.

Simply overhauling it to be a flat modifier to a defense mechanic isn't good enough. That kind of thing would require a complete overhaul of the save system, including anything currently granting a different save (like cover, FNP, etc) instead granting positive modifiers to a defensive stat. And it would still then simply be an abstraction, as people would then complain about, using again your Manticore exampe, how a shrub grants protection against a Space Marine from an enormous missile.

I am, sadly, 100% certain that what I am about to say will be taken away.
The Black Reach starter set.

Cheap orks? Yes please!

After the new one comes out, all those cool things will be oop.