Greek exit...
Weird debt bubbles... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/presenting-one-chart-us-banks-dont-want-you-see
cats and dogs marrying...

is it the end of the finacial world was we know it? Put on your tinfoil hat and discuss

$60 billion isn't a lot of money in the world of government and big business finance.

Not to mention that ATM investors are piling out of the Euro and desperately looking for a safer currency to put their money into.

Cue the dollar.

W00t! we are saved!

that was my understanding of it as well... 60 billion? who cares after we bailed out the banks for 1.5 TRILLION....

seems like a mountain out of a molehill

Of course, the American economy is teetering on the razor's edge after shelling out that 1.5 trillion, so another 60 billion might well be the straw that breaks the camel's back...

Survivalists and people stocking up on food and whatnot don't seem so out there in what they're doing.

To tell the truth, I think they're totaly correct.

Sometimes I feel guilty for having offspring. Like I might have set them up for failure because of the state of the world they will grow up in.

Easy E wrote:Sometimes I feel guilty for having offspring. Like I might have set them up for failure because of the state of the world they will grow up in.

Don't blame yourself. The only setting them up for failure you've done is bringing them into the world. It's not your fault that the system is fethed.

Of course, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure who all it is the fault of, but I'm sure I could self-righteously point a few fingers and hurl a few blind accusations.

Remember when the Zombiepocalypse comes you need to have your plan.

"Our plan is to clean out all the nearby Mormons, schools, and extreme couponers. They all have lots of stuff."
-Mrs. Frazzled on Zombiepocalypse, or our next vacation.

Frazzled wrote:Remember when the Zombiepocalypse comes you need to have your plan.

"Our plan is to clean out all the nearby Mormons, schools, and extreme couponers. They all have lots of stuff."
-Mrs. Frazzled on Zombiepocalypse, or our next vacation.

Heh. One of my friends said it from the opposite angle: "We are all just one catastrophe away from eating each other."

No. Stop watching the news and go live your life.

daedalus wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Remember when the Zombiepocalypse comes you need to have your plan.

"Our plan is to clean out all the nearby Mormons, schools, and extreme couponers. They all have lots of stuff."
-Mrs. Frazzled on Zombiepocalypse, or our next vacation.

Heh. One of my friends said it from the opposite angle: "We are all just one catastrophe away from being able to eat each other."

Corrected your typo: Of course Frazzled's Indian name is Dances with Wiener Dogs so it may have schewed my view a little.

Well, you say that, but zombification at the point of the apocalypse seems like the best avenue to prolonging my food supply.

Realistically, if movies are any indication, there's only going to be a small percentage of the populous unaffected, so chances are that the majority of us actually will be eating one another.

daedalus wrote:Well, you say that, but zombification at the point of the apocalypse seems like the best avenue to prolonging my food supply.

Realistically, if movies are any indication, there's only going to be a small percentage of the populous unaffected, so chances are that the majority of us actually will be eating one another.

Well the immortal bard once said, the best defense is a good offense. To get the recipes down properly we shouls start now.
(gets out his list, cackles softly) er what were we talking about again?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/19/anthony-bourdain-eat-human_n_1530268.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false
With handy tips on cooking unicorn...

Anthony Bourdain Admits That He Would Eat A Human, Offers Instructions For Cooking Unicorn

Uh, what the article is saying is that in the midst of the crisis, to ensure banking stability, the Feds offered money to the banks at a very low rate of interest. Those funds are now being returned, and to refinance the banks are going to have to borrow at commercial rates of interest. That's it. That's the whole story.

Vulcan wrote:Of course, the American economy is teetering on the razor's edge after shelling out that 1.5 trillion, so another 60 billion might well be the straw that breaks the camel's back...

No. Most TARP funds have been repaid, and US government debt to GDP is well within historic norms. There is general weakness in the economy, due to low overall aggregate demand, but the debt itself is not related to that.


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Easy E wrote:Sometimes I feel guilty for having offspring. Like I might have set them up for failure because of the state of the world they will grow up in.

It's so weird how every time there's an economic downturn, people just figure that this is like nothing that's ever happened before and it must be the first step in a slow and steady march to complete social collapse.

There is general weakness in the economy, due to low overall aggregate demand, but the debt itself is not related to that.

If you listen to the Republican party, the debt is the only thing that's bringing the US economy down.

Melissia wrote:If you listen to the Republican party, the debt is the only thing that's bringing the US economy down.

Which is why the best thing is to stop listening to the Republican Party until they start being sensible again.

sebster wrote:

Melissia wrote:If you listen to the Republican party, the debt is the only thing that's bringing the US economy down.

Which is why the best thing is to stop listening to the Republican Party until they start being sensible again.

It's funny to because there "God" Ronald Reagan almost ruined the economy with his backwards economic policy's. Not to mention there was nothing "Small and Compact" about Reagan's government.

Alexzandvar wrote:It's funny to because there "God" Ronald Reagan almost ruined the economy with his backwards economic policy's. Not to mention there was nothing "Small and Compact" about Reagan's government.

There was a funny article on the Onion a while ago, that said Republicans, much to their great embarressment, just realised they got Eisenhower and Reagan confused. They thought Reagan was the Republican that actually delivered less taxes and smaller government, but they just got it confused and it was actually Eisenhower that actually delivered that stuff.

Of course, Eisenhower was the guy who delivered the warning about the rise of the military industrial complex, so I can see why Republicans might be keen to forget about him.

Alexzandvar wrote:

sebster wrote:

Melissia wrote:If you listen to the Republican party, the debt is the only thing that's bringing the US economy down.

Which is why the best thing is to stop listening to the Republican Party until they start being sensible again.

It's funny to because there "God" Ronald Reagan almost ruined the economy with his backwards economic policy's. Not to mention there was nothing "Small and Compact" about Reagan's government.

You mean the guy who had 6% growth, yep he sure ruined the economy. Nothing says turnaround like 500,000 new jobs a month, plus joking about launching the B-52s at the evil Rooskies. Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall!

sebster wrote:Uh, what the article is saying is that in the midst of the crisis, to ensure banking stability, the Feds offered money to the banks at a very low rate of interest. Those funds are now being returned, and to refinance the banks are going to have to borrow at commercial rates of interest. That's it. That's the whole story.

Yup. The unspoken corrolary being when they have to refinance privately, it will cost them a lot more, and the banks may not be able to pony up.

sebster wrote:It's so weird how every time there's an economic downturn, people just figure that this is like nothing that's ever happened before and it must be the first step in a slow and steady march to complete social collapse.

Because it is more fun that way. Praise the invisible hand and pass the ammo!

Why on earth do you think the funds are being returned?

EDIT: er...yea those funds have been completely repaid..wink-wink nudge nudge.

Why do people feel the need to constantly freak out over some impending apocalypse?

Amaya wrote:Why do people feel the need to constantly freak out over some impending apocalypse?

You need to pass the time somehow.

Frazzled wrote:

Amaya wrote:Why do people feel the need to constantly freak out over some impending apocalypse?

You need to pass the time somehow.

exactly

I like the zombie apocalypse idea-I'll go down shooting as many zombies as I can with TNT strapped to my chest. When they inevitably close in for the bites that I can't escape...BOOM muthafethers!

I know God frowns on suicide, but I think he frowns more on zombies.

If you look at old covers of magazines like Time, Newsweek, etc., you'd see a steady march of apocalyptic headlines about the end of capitalism, etc. It's pretty interesting to see how the same stuff just keeps getting recycled by even semi-respectable magazines.

Meanwhile you get the same trash vomited out by FOX and other similar "respectable" news sources, except instead of blaming economic downturns they blame the democratic party.

Because apparently telling people that they can't steal and other such regulation dooms capitalism.

Melissia wrote:Meanwhile you get the same trash vomited out by FOX and other similar "respectable" news sources, except instead of blaming economic downturns they blame the democratic party.

Because apparently telling people that they can't steal and other such regulation dooms capitalism.

Evidently telling the Democratic Party that you can't have multitrillion dollar deficits year end and out dooms capitalism as well.

Frazzled wrote:Evidently telling the Democratic Party that you can't have multitrillion dollar deficits year end and out dooms capitalism as well.

No, it just makes you look like a fool who hasn't paid much attention to history, really.

Melissia wrote:Meanwhile you get the same trash vomited out by FOX and other similar "respectable" news sources, except instead of blaming economic downturns they blame the democratic party.

Because apparently telling people that they can't steal and other such regulation dooms capitalism.

Of course. Everyone knows theft is the basis of capitalism.

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Evidently telling the Democratic Party that you can't have multitrillion dollar deficits year end and out dooms capitalism as well.

No, it just makes you look like a fool who hasn't paid much attention to history, really.

Other than Argentina, Zimbabwe, the Weimar Republic, and Greece right?

Frazzled wrote:

Alexzandvar wrote:

sebster wrote:

Melissia wrote:If you listen to the Republican party, the debt is the only thing that's bringing the US economy down.

Which is why the best thing is to stop listening to the Republican Party until they start being sensible again.

It's funny to because there "God" Ronald Reagan almost ruined the economy with his backwards economic policy's. Not to mention there was nothing "Small and Compact" about Reagan's government.

You mean the guy who had 6% growth, yep he sure ruined the economy. Nothing says turnaround like 500,000 new jobs a month, plus joking about launching the B-52s at the evil Rooskies. Mr. Gorbachev tear down this wall!

For his first term, You do know that a presidents actions have consequences AFTER there terms end? He raised the debt sealing 44 times, it was a great time to be in the military as everyone else, but not so much for you average citizen. Not to mention his speeches on calling the Democrats and Ye Olde Republicans 'appeasers" for working with the Russians and Chinese rather than running around saber rattling.

Trust me, the fact that Ronald Reagan played the, carry a stick and speak very very loudly does not make him gods gift to stern diplomacy.

timetowaste85 wrote:I know God frowns on suicide, but I think he frowns more on zombies.

God loves zombies! His only begotten son became a zombie....

Easy E wrote:Yup. The unspoken corrolary being when they have to refinance privately, it will cost them a lot more, and the banks may not be able to pony up.

It represents another cost in an already struggling industry, that's true.

I was a little puzzled by the angle taken by the article in the OP, though. It has a dig at central planning by the Feds, because they lent this money in the first place to ensure stability, and then says when the banks have to borrow at commercial rates they may now struggle... which surely means stability was improved originally when the Feds lent at low cost?


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Frazzled wrote:Why on earth do you think the funds are being returned?

EDIT: er...yea those funds have been completely repaid..wink-wink nudge nudge.

Umm, yeah, will be. This right wing idea that the answer to TARP being 75% repaid is to just make up suggestions that it's all a big accounting trick seems particularly ridiculous, even for you guys.


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Melissia wrote:Meanwhile you get the same trash vomited out by FOX and other similar "respectable" news sources, except instead of blaming economic downturns they blame the democratic party.

Because apparently telling people that they can't steal and other such regulation dooms capitalism.

Lots of people on both sides are being ridiculous. When you have a system shock, such as banking collapse following a housing bubble, then you will likely have a recession. The sensible responses are to increase government spending temporarily to offset the temporary decline in aggregate demand, and work on reforming banking to prevent a similar asset bubble in future.

Instead we get talk about total economic collapse so you better get more ammo & bottled water, and nonsense about how unfettered capitalism would never have a had a bubble.


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Frazzled wrote:Evidently telling the Democratic Party that you can't have multitrillion dollar deficits year end and out dooms capitalism as well.

Stop playing make-believe games. The large deficits are the result of recession, and long term once the US economy recovers the country will move back to modest deficits (and would even be in surplus if it wasn't for the Bush tax cuts). Pretending the current large deficits are going to be sustained year in, year out is simply nonsense.


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Frazzled wrote:Other than Argentina, Zimbabwe, the Weimar Republic, and Greece right?

The position in the US is simply not like Argentina, Zimbabwe, the Weimar Republic or Greece. The debt is nothing like the debt in those countries, the solutions proposed are nothing like the solutions attempted in those countries.

It's like you know nothing of any of this other than 'USA has deficit, Greece has deficit therefore they're the same'.

Umm, yeah, will be. This right wing idea that the answer to TARP being 75% repaid is to just make up suggestions that it's all a big accounting trick seems particularly ridiculous, even for you guys.

Well, in your defense you don't have all the information that er...players in the industyr have. it was not just TARP. I'd better stop there, but this isn't Republican ranting, but industry ranting.

In US budget history, it has tended to be Republican presidents who presided over increased deficits, and Democrat presidents who presided over decreased deficits.

Speaking of economics and politics:

CT GAMER wrote:Speaking of economics and politics:

Anything produced by News Corp is a lie.

CT GAMER wrote:Speaking of economics and politics

So-called "emergency funding" raised the "baseline" in 2009, which is what the chart is based on. If you take out the "emergency funding" - 2009 Omnibus Spending Bill, TARP, and the Stimulus - then the numbers look different. In fact, you see that the Obama administration really did increase spending.

Things like TARP and the Stimulus were never supposed to be part of the regular, year-to-year budget. But the Obama administration has taken these short term, temporary spending increases and made them a regular feature of government spending.

Well he is technically right in that it's unprecedented.

Because it's unprecedented that it's rising at such a low rate.

Pre '08 economics aren't relevant. The USA, like Europe, is still trying to overcome a massive recession. Governments in all countries are trying to do that as much as possible. Only in the USA is it not publicly acknowledged, and no wonder when it is ridiculed as "socialism".
Obama is no socialist, he's a good old fashioned Keynesian.

Melissia wrote:Well he is technically right in that it's unprecedented.

Because it's unprecedented that it's rising at such a low rate.

Since the number is tracked year to year that is a disingenuous (but true) statement.

Because once you are spending 6 trillion dollars a year how much more do you really need? But wait, wait...how did we get there. I'll give you a hint.

Feth all of them.

yes, it is, and we are all going to die.

Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

Joey wrote:Pre '08 economics aren't relevant. The USA, like Europe, is still trying to overcome a massive recession. Governments in all countries are trying to do that as much as possible. Only in the USA is it not publicly acknowledged, and no wonder when it is ridiculed as "socialism".
Obama is no socialist, he's a good old fashioned Keynesian.

Which is the ridiculousness of all of this. Despite all the crazy rhetoric getting thrown around the US went with basic Keynesian stimulus, it probably didn't shovel out enough money but what it did put out reduced the decline and increased the recovery dramatically. On the other hand, despite everyone calling them socialist all the time, Europe went for the right wing approach of 'austerity', and they remain mired in economic turmoil.

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

anyways

Gas is now down to 3.30 a gallon here were just a few weeks ago it was tickling 4 dollars(still too damn high though, I remember when it was like 1.50 and everyone was bitching), so my fear is slowly being replaced with cautious optimism.

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

This is never an answer. Guns do not solve anything. this sort of thing really saddens me, wears te mutual human spirit & good will?

stonned_astartes wrote:

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

This is never an answer. Guns do not solve anything. this sort of thing really saddens me, wears te mutual human spirit & good will?

Translation: I'm first against the wall when the revolution comes.

AustonT wrote:

The national debt in January 2009 was about $10 trillion. In April 2012 it was $15 trillion.

I'm curious how Obama is only responsible for a 16% increase in national debt.

Its the New Math. You know Goodfacts not Truefacts.

Frazzled wrote:Its the New Math. You know Goodfacts not Truefacts.

Goodfacts are Truefacts.

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

We have never been at war with Eurasia.

At least since 1941 you're right on that war thing.

biccat wrote:

AustonT wrote:

The national debt in January 2009 was about $10 trillion. In April 2012 it was $15 trillion.

I'm curious how Obama is only responsible for a 16% increase in national debt.

Easily answered. The chart ends April 2011.

AustonT wrote:Easily answered. The chart ends April 2011.

Hm.

Still, the National Debt was 14T in April 2011.

So its just wrong and/or a lie. Both excellent and typical.

biccat wrote:

AustonT wrote:Easily answered. The chart ends April 2011.

Hm.

Still, the National Debt was 14T in April 2011.

In that case I retreat to the safer highground: I didn't make the chart.

If the debt did not increase during a fething huge recession, it'd be a miracle.


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biccat wrote:

AustonT wrote:Easily answered. The chart ends April 2011.

Hm.

Still, the National Debt was 14T in April 2011.

What was inflation for the period of '08-11?

Joey wrote:If the debt did not increase during a fething huge recession, it'd be a miracle.

Yes, that is Keynesian. What is not Keynesian is imploding the financial with a level of debt greater than all the other naitonal debt of the rest of the world combined, especially when it was particularly for infrstructure spending, just keeping government jobs afloat.

If you had dumped $1.0Trillion US into a 20 year fund for physical capex I'd be a much more happy camper. We didn't and it didn't do

Considering how El Presidente has never actually run a budget before thats not particularly surprising.

Joey wrote:What was inflation for the period of '08-11?

Why does that matter?

Upon further analysis, in January 2001 the National Debt was $5.7 T. To get to $10.6 T, the debt by about 85%, not 115% as claimed. This suggests that whoever made the data was taking some of the debt acquired during Obama's presidency and attributing it to Bush.

Obama increased the debt 43% (Jan. 2009 - Jan. 2012) in 3 years, Bush increased it by 85% in 8.

Frazzled wrote:

Joey wrote:If the debt did not increase during a fething huge recession, it'd be a miracle.

Yes, that is Keynesian. What is not Keynesian is imploding the financial with a level of debt greater than all the other naitonal debt of the rest of the world combined, especially when it was particularly for infrstructure spending, just keeping government jobs afloat.

Setting aside that's he's "impoded the financial", a 5 trillion dollar increase in debt isn't that big - 33% of GDP.

Frazzled wrote:
If you had dumped $1.0Trillion US into a 20 year fund for physical capex I'd be a much more happy camper. We didn't and it didn't do

You'd also have millions of unemployed and probably still be in recession. Go figure.

Setting aside that's he's "impoded the financial", a 5 trillion dollar increase in debt isn't that big - 33% of GDP.

This statement lacks financial sanity. You just said a 2 year increase in the debt equivalent to 1/3 of the entire GDP of the United States of America isn't big. What you think is big may stagger the mind.




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You'd also have millions of unemployed and probably still be in recession. Go figure.

Wait, so you mean, like now. OK...

My wife regularly implodes my financial.

Kilkrazy wrote:My wife regularly implodes my financial.

Ditto, and I've found out, has graduated from treating curbs as merely guidelines to sideswiping buildings.
"That bank just leaped out at me!"

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

Never say this in a public forum.


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Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:My wife regularly implodes my financial.

Ditto, and I've found out, has graduated from treating curbs as merely guidelines to sideswiping buildings.
"That bank just leaped out at me!"

Your wife hit a bank?

Yes and not in the good "John Dillinger" way but more in the "WOMAN WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO TO THE VAN!" way.

...your wife is off my list of potential get away drivers.

AustonT wrote:...your wife is off my list of potential get away drivers.

Mine too. I'm scared. The Boy Wonder is absolutely excellent (knock on wood) even if he tends to floor it. I'm leery GC will be like the Wife ditty bop ditty bop ooh shiny SCRAPE oh who cares ditty bop ditty bop...

Frazzled wrote:

This statement lacks financial sanity. You just said a 2 year increase in the debt equivalent to 1/3 of the entire GDP of the United States of America isn't big. What you think is big may stagger the mind.

It's a 4 year increase but don't bother getting your facts right, the right rarely does.
According to google, interest on US debt is on average 3.29%. How many people do you think would take out a 10/20 year loan for a third of their income at 3.29%? Especially if it meant ensuring growth in the first place so that you actually have the capacity to pay it back.
Just going "wow those numbers are big, obama must be wrong" is very childish.
Explain exactly why you think the stimulus was a bad idea. Explain how America would be in a better position with a couple of million fewer jobs, and 3-5% less GDP.

According to google, interest on US debt is on average 3.29%. How many people do you think would take out a 10/20 year loan for a third of their income at 3.29%? Especially if it meant ensuring growth in the first place so that you actually have the capacity to pay it back.
***1) Its not just interest, its principle you have to pay back. 2. 3.29% on $15T? Thats $493Bn a year. 3. That amount is not going down but up as the deficit continues to blow through a trillion a year. 4. You hit a point where there is no more money left to borrow unless you go for absurdly high rates.

Just going "wow those numbers are big, obama must be wrong" is very childish.
***You're right. Good thing its not what I did.

Explain exactly why you think the stimulus was a bad idea.
***It wasn't a stimulus. It was the greatest government/union slush fund in history.

Explain how America would be in a better position with a couple of million fewer jobs, and 3-5% less GDP.
***As soon as you prove the "stimulus" stopped that I'll believe you.

Interesting. If you used GAAP accounting the real deficit would have been $5T last year.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-05-18/federal-deficit-accounting/55179748/1

AustonT wrote:

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

Never say this in a public forum.

Yeah, it's basically like saying "hey look at me, I'm a TARGET!"

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:

Taskmaster99 wrote:Im not really worried about an economic collapse......Im a gun nut...have plenty of protection for myself and my wife and a ton of ammo to boot. Try and loot my house.......I dare ya!!!

Never say this in a public forum.

Yeah, it's basically like saying "hey look at me, I'm a TARGET!"

Not too worried about it.

I'm sure, internet tough guy and all.

Melissia wrote:I'm sure, internet tough guy and all.

Never once said i was a tough guy. I just know what I will do to keep my wife and household safe. I dont see anything wrong with that.

Economic collapse? is it going to happen? YES get used to it

Joey wrote:Setting aside that's he's "impoded the financial", a 5 trillion dollar increase in debt isn't that big - 33% of GDP.

It actually is a really big number, and it's something that needs multiple long term solutions to address, to kick in once the poor economic times have ended.


Basically the US had a deficit blow out in the 1980s. To some extent this was understandable, you started that decade in recession as well. But in large part it was due to tax cuts and spending increases to areas of the economy that do not provide much stimulus, and do not encourage future economic growth (ie defence spending). This was not disastrous, and was in fact not only solveable but was straight up solved - though Clinton gets the credit much of the good work to bring the budget under control was undertaken by GHW Bush (and like anyone that solves a long term problem, you guys voted him out of office for inflicting short term pain).

That good work led to surpluses in the late 90s, and while a return to poor economic times following the .com bubble meant a drop back into deficits, long term the future looked pretty solid. Unfortunately you also had GW Bush, who'd learnt the lessons from his dad's presidency, so he was committed to delivering a tax cut no matter how little sense it made for long term financial stability. Couple in a Republican congress that just didn't apply any restrictions to spending and you had unsustainable deficit spending, even in the latter part of the decade when economic activity was strong.

So in 2008 when the country dropped back into recession, you got incredibly poor deficit results, and then you add stimulus spending on top of that.

Add a bunch of young, incredibly ignorant politicians riding the back of popular discontent, who think that a recession is the greatest time ever to cut back on spending, and you have our current situation.

Because apparently they don't see what austerity during a recession did to Greece.

loki old fart wrote:Economic collapse? is it going to happen? YES* get used to it

* Eventually.

Many pro-asian economist says that the wests will be drowned in the crisis and asians will survive and thrive.

What do you say?

How?

One says that Asian nations will trade with UAE and Africa.
Also many Asian nations will increases its tradings among each others. China will find its big clients once the AEC zone comes alive!

Lone Cat wrote:One says that Asian nations will trade with UAE and Africa.
Also many Asian nations will increases its tradings among each others. China will find its big clients once the AEC zone comes alive!

Thats an interesting and unique view.

A small part of me would enjoy utter ruin, you know how we all like TV shows because they are exciting and full of suspense?

A total breakdown in society, lawlessness and looting, maybe something nuts would be kinda cool. I mean, once A game of Thrones finishes, I paint my last 8 Space Marines and I get my barbarian to level 60, I'm going to be at odds for stuff to do.

An interesting take on debt.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6019992706449012651&hl=en

loki old fart wrote:An interesting take on debt.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6019992706449012651&hl=en

I have no idea what they're talking about but they're in Derby


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Lone Cat wrote:Many pro-asian economist says that the wests will be drowned in the crisis and asians will survive and thrive.

What do you say?

Many Asian historians also say the Great Leap Forward never happened and that Tibet has always been a part of China.
Eastern academia doesn't have a lot of respect in the West. Western free-market nations are not going to start taking lessons from a state capitalist country with a property bubble the size of the Germany economy.

Friend in Greece thinks civil war there soon

Joey wrote:Many Asian historians also say the Great Leap Forward never happened and that Tibet has always been a part of China.
Eastern academia doesn't have a lot of respect in the West. Western free-market nations are not going to start taking lessons from a state capitalist country with a property bubble the size of the Germany economy.

I'm pretty sure he wrote "pro-asian economists" (which says nothing about the nationality of said economists) and not "Chinese officials".

Don't count on the West "drowning" any time soon ; if anything, what I can envision is a more or less durable slowdown as we dabble in debt reduction (not accounting for possible euro gakstorm if/when Greece finally reverts to the drachma). I'm certainly anticipating a rebalancing toward Asia, if only because of the growing internal demand from the monster-sized Chinese market. Trade is already mainly intra-regional, but US and EU still represent a huge part of Chinese exports ; I think China is smart enough to deliver a smooth transition as the two trends cross. They've been pretty nimble at deflating or at least managing that bubble so far ; we can safely assume it would have gone completely unnoticed anywhere else if the last decades are anything to go by.

I for one am looking forward to taking a wheelbarrow full of cash down to the market to pay for a single loaf of bread.

Lone Cat wrote:Many pro-asian economist says that the wests will be drowned in the crisis and asians will survive and thrive.

What do you say?

I think as soon as you start identifying as a 'pro-asian economist' you've basically lost academic credibility and should replace the word 'economist' with 'cheerleader'.

Also, that summary is gibberish. The developing Asian economies are tied to the hip of Western economies, and if the West 'drowns in crisis' then Asia will follow. I mean, the GFC saw 40 million newly unemployed in China, and riots on the streets in which people died.

We will likely see greater shifts in power and status to China, and sometime after that to India, but that's very different thing to the Asian century that some Chinese* commentators like to fantasise about.



*And some American and European nutters like to predict as well, in order to berate the West for whatever bugbear that author happens to have.


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loki old fart wrote:An interesting take on debt.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6019992706449012651&hl=en

Economic illiteracy. They have no idea how a central bank actually operates, or who controls it.

And then it meanders into the same old utterly mistaken understanding of fractional banking you always see in this kinds of videos.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:I for one am looking forward to taking a wheelbarrow full of cash down to the market to pay for a single loaf of bread.

Don't worry about that.

I am making an app for it.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:I for one am looking forward to taking a wheelbarrow full of cash down to the market to pay for a single loaf of bread.

The thing with hyperinflation is you better buy that bread in the morning, because by noon it's two wheelbarrows worth.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:I for one am looking forward to taking a wheelbarrow full of cash down to the market to pay for a single loaf of bread.

Why? Inflation in the US is at 2.3%. In the last 30 years the highest inflation rate was 5.4%. In an economy where not a whole hell of a lot has been under control, inflation has been very sound.

It's a good idea to have a fair sized stock of food to hand. I know of families that have two year supplies of food that came in handy when jobs were lost.
There was no worry about where the next meal was coming from and a lower paying job,combined with the food supply and frugal living, got them through some tight months until better jobs again came their way.


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mattyrm wrote: A small part of me would enjoy utter ruin, you know how we all like TV shows because they are exciting and full of suspense?

A total breakdown in society, lawlessness and looting, maybe something nuts would be kinda cool. I mean, once A game of Thrones finishes, I paint my last 8 Space Marines and I get my barbarian to level 60, I'm going to be at odds for stuff to do.

I had some SCA people try to tell me that the FBI had them(SCA) members on filebecause the were worried about any group where total strangers can come together and form a shield wall if society breaks down.

If the Society for Creative Anachronisms can still get together to form a shield wall, then apparently they will be the one society that hasn't broken down.

a shield wall is a threat? you mean like how the riot police do it...

They seemed to have the idea that they'd strap on their armor and go about winning battles from behind an inpenatrable shield wall.
I guess they thought fire arms were going to magically disappear.

Relapse wrote:They seemed to have the idea that they'd strap on their armor and go about winning battles from behind an inpenatrable shield wall.
I guess they thought fire arms were going to magically disappear.

Obviously you aren't a fan of S.M. Stirling.

Relapse wrote:I had some SCA people try to tell me that the FBI had them(SCA) members on filebecause the were worried about any group where total strangers can come together and form a shield wall if society breaks down.

This is why I love those historical recreation societies. They've got absolutely wonderful, friendly, level headed people who are really passionate about their hobby, and also some complete nutters, and absolutely nothing in between.

sebster wrote:

Relapse wrote:I had some SCA people try to tell me that the FBI had them(SCA) members on filebecause the were worried about any group where total strangers can come together and form a shield wall if society breaks down.

This is why I love those historical recreation societies. They've got absolutely wonderful, friendly, level headed people who are really passionate about their hobby, and also some complete nutters, and absolutely nothing in between.

I think you hit it right on the head with that statement. I knew some other people from the same group that were fairly incredible types in every day life. One was an extremely successful dentist, another was a dancer who had a Samurai persona that fought with two swords, yet one more was a former active duty SEAL.
One of those who told me about the FBI was also someone that went around telling people he had been in the coast guard, a gun runner and a couple of other things along that line.
The thing he forgot one time was not to tell those stories to 14 year olds while I was around because I knew he hadn't been more than a couple miles from his parents basement or the local game store playing Dungeons and Dragons. I happened by while he, a 38 year old was shoveling this crap to some kids at a local game store. I called him on it, reminding him that I'd known him since he was 19 and was witness to one of the brightest shades of red I've ever seen on anyone's face.
I guess he'd been forging quite the legend for himself and to have it deflated was quite the crippler for him.