A drop pod of hostile Space Marines crash land in a remote part of your country (edit: with rugged terrain).
They are armed as such:
Sergeant with plasma pistol, melta bombs, teleport homer and power fists.
1 Marine with Plasma cannon
1 Marine with Melta gun
7 Marines with standard armament
The Marines have rigged the teleport homer to make electronic tracking of the unit difficult. What size of force from your country would need to send defeat them? (without it being overkill)
I am from the US so I would say:
5 Bradley Fighting Vehicles, each containing a special forces team
2 M1 Abrams Tanks
3 AH-64 Apache Helicopters
3 Black Hawk Helicopters each containing a special forces team
1 M270 MLRS
2 M109 Howitzers
The Helicopters would be target practise for the bolters of the marines and the Howitzers/MLRS would more or less need direct hits to do damage. Meanwhile, the Plasma Cannon would be very lethal against the tanks, even at range. It more or less comes down to whether the tanks spot the Astartes before they're shot or not. I also imagine that directly hitting a target that's roughly the size of a small bear with an anti-tank round from a tank is quite hard, especially as the target will be moving.
As for my own country, it's either loads of infantry armed with Carl Gustaf anti-tank missile launchers or some sort of air strike. With how sparsely some parts of Sweden is, though, they could well be in one of our cities before we're even aware they exist, and no nation on Earth beats Astartes in urban combat without nuking them, which is cheating.
The Tanks can fire on the move at a distance of 2KM-3KM and the Apaches can fire a hellfire missile from distances up to 10KM when a target is laser designated. The Marines will likely fall to long distance firepower.
The Special Forces will get chewed up since their standard armament fires a 5.56mm (.223 caliber) round which will not be sufficient to take out a Space Marine let alone penetrate their armor.
If I has a choice just carpet bomb the area or use the MLRS to wipe out an entire square Kilometer. Large area non guided munitions would be the safest and most sure bet to kill the Marines.
And just how are you going to locate them in the first place when they're jamming electronic surveillance? Sure, an A-10 or a Spectre could probably feth them up if they were out in the open, but suppose they're in a forest? We need more info about where they drop before we default to air strikes (which I should've thought of before posting my first post )
AlmightyWalrus wrote:And just how are you going to locate them in the first place when they're jamming electronic surveillance? Sure, an A-10 or a Spectre could probably feth them up if they were out in the open, but suppose they're in a forest? We need more info about where they drop before we default to air strikes (which I should've thought of before posting my first post )
Heavily firebomb the entire 100 mile square area. Dodge that.
NORAD Is going to pick up their drop pod when it enters the atmosphere and from that you will be able to locate them with drones or satellite imagery.
We have more then just one means to do surveillance that doesn't require electronics
And he stated that tracking them would be difficult, not impossible
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheRobotLol wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:And just how are you going to locate them in the first place when they're jamming electronic surveillance? Sure, an A-10 or a Spectre could probably feth them up if they were out in the open, but suppose they're in a forest? We need more info about where they drop before we default to air strikes (which I should've thought of before posting my first post )
Heavily firebomb the entire 100 mile square area. Dodge that.
NuclearMessiah wrote:NORAD Is going to pick up their drop pod when it enters the atmosphere and from that you will be able to locate them with drones or satellite imagery.
We have more then just one means to do surveillance that doesn't require electronics
And he stated that tracking them would be difficult, not impossible
So your examples of stuff that doesn't use electronic surveillance are satellites, that use electronics, and drones, that use electronics?
As for firebombing, you'd get them out in the open, but Power Armour's partially ceramic. I don't see firebombing killing them, but it'd be way easier to find them and use weapons that will.
Their magical box can only block wireless tech, good old cable if fine and can only be disrupted by cutting the cable, secondly I'm pretty sure that most goverments have high tech spy and recon satilites that are so powerful they can see what news paper your reading.
One one in their right mind would send in grund troops before you've at lest tried the short/mid/long range air strikes. Only then would you send in the ground pounders and in huge numbers just to be sure of containment
Also without aerial support or orbital assets the marines are just boned, no way around it.
They were put at a huge disadvantage by being in a remote location which allows the military to use less restraint in their response.
However if they ended up in a populated area, then things become more sticky
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
NuclearMessiah wrote:NORAD Is going to pick up their drop pod when it enters the atmosphere and from that you will be able to locate them with drones or satellite imagery.
We have more then just one means to do surveillance that doesn't require electronics
And he stated that tracking them would be difficult, not impossible
So your examples of stuff that doesn't use electronic surveillance are satellites, that use electronics, and drones, that use electronics?
As for firebombing, you'd get them out in the open, but Power Armour's partially ceramic. I don't see firebombing killing them, but it'd be way easier to find them and use weapons that will.
There is a difference in electronic surveillance and taking a picture. And unless their magical homer had infinite range, it would be hard pressed to stop a satellite hovering 25 miles above their heads. I have 8 and a half years in the service Your going to argue till your face is blue with me on this one
NuclearMessiah wrote:NORAD Is going to pick up their drop pod when it enters the atmosphere and from that you will be able to locate them with drones or satellite imagery.
We have more then just one means to do surveillance that doesn't require electronics
And he stated that tracking them would be difficult, not impossible
Unless NORAD can track something travelling at mach 25+, he pod would hit the ground just fine. afterwards is a WHOLE new bag o' monkeys....
Oh my, I forgot about the grandaddy of the cold war. Are there any of them sill in use? If so not bad for an old warhorse thats clocking up 60/70 years in the sky.
To think, a plane that had a projected life of 15/20 years is still soldering on way after its borthers and sisters of the time have been scraped or put in museums.
They don't make'em like they used to
NuclearMessiah wrote:NORAD Is going to pick up their drop pod when it enters the atmosphere and from that you will be able to locate them with drones or satellite imagery.
We have more then just one means to do surveillance that doesn't require electronics
And he stated that tracking them would be difficult, not impossible
Unless NORAD can track something travelling at mach 25+, he pod would hit the ground just fine. afterwards is a WHOLE new bag o' monkeys....
NORAD can, they tracked a test vehicle booking it at around Mach 32.
And considering that the drop pod is gonna be a pretty light in the sky falling to earth, pretty sure if that NORAD doesn't pick it, some chump(s) on the ground will, might take a look for themselves, might call it in. In the end, just have to follow the trail of bodies.
Send in special forces/SEALS to locate but not engage. They can laser designate at over a mile distant, and call in heavy artillery and air support. A squadron of Apaches should have the firepower to easily handle a squad of marines, their chain guns alone are roughly equal to assault cannons.
The way I read the OP I assumed the Beacon would jam any wireless thingies, causing the drones to lose contact with the pilot. I guess you're right about the satellites, although, again, that won't help much if they're anywhere they can get cover.
Regarding the firebombing: I'm going to commit a cardinal sin and use in-game stats in a fluff conversation. The Hellstorm bombs dropped by a Marauder is AP3, the minimum required to penetrate Power Armour, and that's with a direct hit. Considering that's tech 38k more advanced than ours, and that Space Marines are more powerful in fluff than on the TT, I don't see firebombs doing anything more than exposing their position, which in turn let's us hit them with ordnance. Assuming the jamming works as I interpreted, cruise missiles wouldn't do much though.
If they're in a forest, just use the ultimate incendiary weapon and nuke the fethers!
AlmightyWalrus wrote:The way I read the OP I assumed the Beacon would jam any wireless thingies, causing the drones to lose contact with the pilot. I guess you're right about the satellites, although, again, that won't help much if they're anywhere they can get cover.
Regarding the firebombing: I'm going to commit a cardinal sin and use in-game stats in a fluff conversation. The Hellstorm bombs dropped by a Marauder is AP3, the minimum required to penetrate Power Armour, and that's with a direct hit. Considering that's tech 38k more advanced than ours, and that Space Marines are more powerful in fluff than on the TT, I don't see firebombs doing anything more than exposing their position, which in turn let's us hit them with ordnance. Assuming the jamming works as I interpreted, cruise missiles wouldn't do much though.
If they're in a forest, just use the ultimate incendiary weapon and nuke the fethers!
Cruise missile just travel to a point that is designated by GPS coordinates. Also satellites can see in thermal vision as well
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyways I think its a consensus that they could be taken out pretty easily out in remote areas.
And the jamming comes into play when the marines move and the coordinates need updating. I'd totally forgotten thermal imaging, although that wouldn't go very well with firebombing I guess.
Having them come down in a city would be the real challenge.
Remote area? Really, no issues with our resources. Well not ours (Canada) but you know what I mean. Send a sniper squad some kilometer away and have a training exercise. If sniper rounds can pierce tanks I'm sure a SM can't handle more than a few. Especially since this squad you outlined has no long range fire power and move slowly with no cover (remote area).
If it did come down to ground forces I would think that some bradleys with 25mm mounts equiped with a mix of AP and SAPHE-T rounds would at least slow them down if not do them in while snipers with .50 cals and AP rounds picked them off from almost a mile away. Or possibley we could talk the taliban into providing some suicide bombers who could just run up and give the marines a high explosive bear hug.
Ribon Fox wrote:Not realy Skycapt, if push come to shove you would level the place, I know damn well I would.
I doubt any civil government would endanger civilians by leveling the place. Especially if they saw a single 'pod' fall to the earth with ten seemingly large warriors walking out. For arguments sake let's say they dropped in New York City. You mean to tell me the US army would fly by and drop bomb after bomb on one of the most densely populated cities on the planet. Maybe you would level the place but no smart president would endanger risking dropping bombs on his people. After all it is only 10 marines so it wouldn't take much to take them down in any setting. You'd be crazy to level the place. YMMV
Ribon Fox wrote:Not realy Skycapt, if push come to shove you would level the place, I know damn well I would.
I doubt any civil government would endanger civilians by leveling the place. Especially if they saw a single 'pod' fall to the earth with ten seemingly large warriors walking out. For arguments sake let's say they dropped in New York City. You mean to tell me the US Air Force/Navy would fly by and drop bomb after bomb on one of the most densely populated cities on the planet. Maybe you would level the place but no smart president would endanger risking dropping bombs on his people. After all it is only 10 marines so it wouldn't take much to take them down in any setting. You'd be crazy to level the place. YMMV
Bobthehero wrote:A bunch of snipers with either .50 of 1.0 cal rifles, all hidden at 1.5-2 km of distance.
It'll have to be 1.0.
.50 cal is S3, .75 (the calibre of the bolts are S4). Granted, the bolts are explosive, but still.
And they must hit the marines through the visor.
Bobthehero wrote:1.0 is 25 mm, about the size of an autocannon, I'd say they can hit anywhere and still cause serious injuries.
idk about that, actually.
I think IoM autocannons are a bit more destructive than ours, since they are 38k years more advanced.
Weapons tech can advance a lot after that many millennia.
Anyway, I would go with HEAT rounds. PA is basically a wearable tank, and as such dedicated tank weaponry should do something against it, as long as its a direct hit.
Not sure if it'll hurt the marine inside too much though, due to all the organs and stuff.
I think our best bet is to try to incapacitate the marines rather than kill them. Make their armor unusable and bog them down.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think IoM autocannons are a bit more destructive than ours, since they are 38k years more advanced.
Actually, they're not. Most of the fluff mentioning Autoweapons(of all sizes) mentions that they're essentially the same as what has been in use since the late 20th Century. Rogue Trader specifically mentions 20th Century tank guns in relation to Autocannons.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think IoM autocannons are a bit more destructive than ours, since they are 38k years more advanced.
Actually, they're not. Most of the fluff mentioning Autoweapons(of all sizes) mentions that they're essentially the same as what has been in use since the late 20th Century. Rogue Trader specifically mentions 20th Century tank guns in relation to Autocannons.
Really? They actually specified that?
That's a bit backwards. I would imagine a race that's 38k more years advanced than ours would have better autocannons :/.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I think IoM autocannons are a bit more destructive than ours, since they are 38k years more advanced.
Actually, they're not. Most of the fluff mentioning Autoweapons(of all sizes) mentions that they're essentially the same as what has been in use since the late 20th Century. Rogue Trader specifically mentions 20th Century tank guns in relation to Autocannons.
Really? They actually specified that? That's a bit backwards. I would imagine a race that's 38k more years advanced than ours would have better autocannons :/.
But they're NOT 38K years more advanced. Remember that whole Age of Strife time when they lost and FORGOT much of their technological knowledge? The one that started in M23?
It's kind of why they rely on finding STCs to even HAVE technology.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think IoM autocannons are a bit more destructive than ours, since they are 38k years more advanced.
Actually, they're not. Most of the fluff mentioning Autoweapons(of all sizes) mentions that they're essentially the same as what has been in use since the late 20th Century. Rogue Trader specifically mentions 20th Century tank guns in relation to Autocannons.
Really? They actually specified that?
That's a bit backwards. I would imagine a race that's 38k more years advanced than ours would have better autocannons :/.
But they're NOT 38K years more advanced. Remember that whole Dark Age of Technology time when they lost and FORGOT much of their technological knowledge? The one that started in M15?
It's kind of why they rely on finding STCs to even HAVE technology.
Really? This thread again? Are we going to have to go back and forth attempting to debate how strong Power Armor is?
We need a single A-10 Warthog in the air, and the SM are gone.
or a Sniper team with a .50 cal. The Heavy Stubber is the equivalent of a .50 caliber heavy machine gun. Once the ceramite shell cracks, the marines are good as dead. Well trained marksmen (like anyone from a SWAT sniper to a SEAL) would be able to pick out weak spots. Remember, this is real life, not models with a BS value.
McNinja wrote:Really? This thread again? Are we going to have to go back and forth attempting to debate how strong Power Armor is?
We need a single A-10 Warthog in the air, and the SM are gone.
or a Sniper team with a .50 cal. The Heavy Stubber is the equivalent of a .50 caliber heavy machine gun. Once the ceramite shell cracks, the marines are good as dead. Well trained marksmen (like anyone from a SWAT sniper to a SEAL) would be able to pick out weak spots. Remember, this is real life, not models with a BS value.
or some 40mm grenade launchers.
But Space Marines are not some just some fools who would wander around waiting to be bombed. If they set up a base of operations in a remote area with good cover we would never find them by air. An A-10 cannot shoot what it can't find (With the amount of experience and training that Space Marines have I think it is doubtful we would be able to pull off an ambush or find them unprepared). Of course they would eventually lose, but we would have to send in ground forces to find them and I think it is reasonable to suspect that a single tac squad could cause hundreds if not thousands of a casualties before it was taken out.
McNinja wrote:Really? This thread again? Are we going to have to go back and forth attempting to debate how strong Power Armor is?
We need a single A-10 Warthog in the air, and the SM are gone.
or a Sniper team with a .50 cal. The Heavy Stubber is the equivalent of a .50 caliber heavy machine gun. Once the ceramite shell cracks, the marines are good as dead. Well trained marksmen (like anyone from a SWAT sniper to a SEAL) would be able to pick out weak spots. Remember, this is real life, not models with a BS value.
or some 40mm grenade launchers.
But Space Marines are not some just some fools who would wander around waiting to be bombed. If they set up a base of operations in a remote area with good cover we would never find them by air. An A-10 cannot shoot what it can't find (With the amount of experience and training that Space Marines have I think it is doubtful we would be able to pull off an ambush or find them unprepared). Of course they would eventually lose, but we would have to send in ground forces to find them and I think it is reasonable to suspect that a single tac squad could cause hundreds if not thousands of a casualties before it was taken out.
Satellite finds them via thermal imaging, the coordinates are relayed to an A-10 (or two or squadron, whatever), or hell, even the King of Battle. They then promptly rain down hell upon the coordinates. If satellite still detects moving SM, bring in another barrage. Bye bye SM.
Its not terrible difficult to hit something with its gun, its more accurate then people think, and a 9 foot tall maybe what 4/5 feet wide target would not be hard to hit.
Park it out of range and plug away. a 120mm shell would instant kill them. HEAT rounds (football sized shaped charge round) to the center of mass or a long tungsten penetrator would make the marines fall easy.
course then the tech would be grabbed and reverse engineered as fast as possible....
Looking at my flag and back to reality, I have no Earthly clue.
Our Rangers are a hard ass unit but Im not sure they'd have the firepower/ability to take out a full squad of Marines.
We have no air force to speak of and our heaviest vehicle is this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mowag_Piranha
I suppose we could ply 'em with Poitin and busty Irish redheads.
Defend against hostile Space Marines?
I would bow before them and begging them to conquer us.
I would just say to them: "All you have to do My Lord is to kill all of our presidents and Government members and all the nations will venerate you as saviors."
But to be perfectly honest, my nation would give medal to whoever kill every last idiot in our Governmental body. And to kill every idiot in US senate and government we would declare them as gods. No offence to guys living in US...
What about this plan; have infantry, mortar, and maybe some artillery pin them down while snipers fire at the marines' necks as it is said that the neck is one of the most exposed part for a marine (hence mk8 armor). It seems cost effective and you can have plenty(sp?) to salvage.
The whole sniper counter thing Im not sure about.
No clue how good RL snipers on but you're talking about hitting a tiny area on a beast that is moving over ground at what - 30mph? (humans can run at about 20mph?) in a constantly shifting battle, amongst terrain and potentially in a night fight scenario?
The Marines too are going to target those snipers ASAP.
Ratius wrote:The whole sniper counter thing Im not sure about.
No clue how good RL snipers on but you're talking about hitting a tiny area on a beast that is moving over ground at what - 30mph? (humans can run at about 20mph?) in a constantly shifting battle, amongst terrain and potentially in a night fight scenario?
The Marines too are going to target those snipers ASAP.
Any info on RL bolter ranges?
Bolter range? I am 100% sure that a bolter does not have the range of a Cheytac Intervention or Barrett .50 cal rifle. You can't target something you can't see. Marines are not known for being stealthy, whereas SpecOps soldiers spend their lives being as stealthy and invisible as possible. Oh, and yes, a proper sniper can hit pretty much anything. A target moving at 30mph wouldn't be the easiest shot in the world, but considering how large a Space Marine is, it wouldn't be all that hard either.
Zookie wrote:
McNinja wrote:Really? This thread again? Are we going to have to go back and forth attempting to debate how strong Power Armor is?
We need a single A-10 Warthog in the air, and the SM are gone.
or a Sniper team with a .50 cal. The Heavy Stubber is the equivalent of a .50 caliber heavy machine gun. Once the ceramite shell cracks, the marines are good as dead. Well trained marksmen (like anyone from a SWAT sniper to a SEAL) would be able to pick out weak spots. Remember, this is real life, not models with a BS value.
or some 40mm grenade launchers.
But Space Marines are not some just some fools who would wander around waiting to be bombed. If they set up a base of operations in a remote area with good cover we would never find them by air. An A-10 cannot shoot what it can't find (With the amount of experience and training that Space Marines have I think it is doubtful we would be able to pull off an ambush or find them unprepared). Of course they would eventually lose, but we would have to send in ground forces to find them and I think it is reasonable to suspect that a single tac squad could cause hundreds if not thousands of a casualties before it was taken out.
If they happen to land in Arizona/Nevada/New Mexico, they're pretty much boned from the get go. Do you know how many military testing and training facilities are in the southwest of the US? Lots. Unless the SM happen to land in Pheonix or Las Vegas, they military wouldn't hesitate to blow a hostile alien presence out of the desert. Hell, if they were to simply land in the Southern US, they would be facerolled. Do you have any idea how many people have guns in the south? I don't mean guns like pistols and revolvers. I mean people and businesses who have their Class III licenses and own and operate explosives and fully automatic weapons. Hint: a bunch. The show Sons of Guns should give you a clear picture of just one gunsmithing company in Louisiana and what they can fabricate. We also have a National Guard in the US. We also have sonic weaponry and lasers.
This goes doubly if the SMs land in the middle east. I very highly doubt they would be given leeway in an area so grounded in religious dogma (and so heavily armed). The second the SM try to claim the area for their God-Emperor, they will receive a dozen RPGs to the face, along with a host of pissed off Muslims firing their AK-47s wildly at them.
If they happen to set up a HQ in somewhere like the Amazon Rainforest, we could just the the wildlife and various diseases get them. Unhelmeted sergeants, meet bullet ants. Though it would be interesting what would happen if mosquitos got to the Space Marines... after sucking their blood, would they die? Do the Space Marines have diseases that the mosquitos would spread? That's a whole 'nother can of worms that could potentially be very dangerous for us.
winnertakesall wrote:Send wave after wave of troops at them until they exhaust their ammunition. Send in more troops to finish them off.
Yeah because that's totally how our military works.
Bolter range? I am 100% sure that a bolter does not have the range of a Cheytac Intervention or Barrett .50 cal rifle. You can't target something you can't see. Marines are not known for being stealthy, whereas SpecOps soldiers spend their lives being as stealthy and invisible as possible. Oh, and yes, a proper sniper can hit pretty much anything. A target moving at 30mph wouldn't be the easiest shot in the world, but considering how large a Space Marine is, it wouldn't be all that hard either.
Agreed on the bolter range, it was just a question.
I disagree however that the Marines wouldnt be able to see the snipers, I'd be pretty shocked if the Marines didnt have body heat signaturesensing in their optics or infra red or something that would allow them to see the snipers.
Agreed on hitting the marine but hitting them in that vitally sensitive area as they duck and weave and use cover maybe at night? Dunno know about that for sure.
Bolter range? I am 100% sure that a bolter does not have the range of a Cheytac Intervention or Barrett .50 cal rifle. You can't target something you can't see. Marines are not known for being stealthy, whereas SpecOps soldiers spend their lives being as stealthy and invisible as possible. Oh, and yes, a proper sniper can hit pretty much anything. A target moving at 30mph wouldn't be the easiest shot in the world, but considering how large a Space Marine is, it wouldn't be all that hard either.
Agreed on the bolter range, it was just a question.
I disagree however that the Marines wouldnt be able to see the snipers, I'd be pretty shocked if the Marines didnt have body heat signaturesensing in their optics or infra red or something that would allow them to see the snipers.
Agreed on hitting the marine but hitting them in that vitally sensitive area as they duck and weave and use cover maybe at night? Dunno know about that for sure.
Sorry if I came off a bit harsh
It would boil down to which team is better: the SM or the SpecOps team? I also doubt that any Sniper would attempt to further engage the SMs after their presence has been known. Detecting heat signatures by satellite would tell us where they are setting up camp, and we would probably send a team in to ask them what's up (especially if they were to land in Europe or North America). If they blew that team away, we would send in snipers and such. If they didn't, we would probably treat them as if they were emissaries from another country and have negotiations with them. We would also probably end up telling them to leave, as that whole "taking the planet for the emperor" thing wouldn't go over well with anyone. The Space Marines wouldn't leave, and then the fighting begins.
Snipers could easily be at 2 km away from the marines and fire from there, with guns strong enough to cut a normal human in half, and that's only the .50, mind you.
We still have no prof whatsoever that this rifle can penetrate power armor, especially when the shot is fired from 2km.
Astartes power armor is known to deflect tank shots and even Gauss blaster rifle ( Fall of Damnos ), so why do people think that after this fluff references we can penetrate their armor with our infantry weapons?
And I personally doubt that USAF will send A-10 or AC-130 on a 10 men squad, they wouldn't even send Abrams on them not to mention aircraft who cost millions of dollars. I won't even mention nukes as we would do more damage to ourselves then to Astartes, the only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry, just like Imperial Guard.
It's all speculation, there's no hard evidence for either argument. And I lol'd really damn hard at the "only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry." Please, that hasn't been a viable tactic in decades (unless you happen to be China), there's a reason why FA is called the King of Battle. And don't be so sure we wouldn't "waste" million dollar weapon systems to pop ten or so SM. We've "wasted" such weapons on targets that posed a significantly lesser threat.
Brother Coa wrote:We still have no prof whatsoever that this rifle can penetrate power armor, especially when the shot is fired from 2km.
Astartes power armor is known to deflect tank shots and even Gauss blaster rifle ( Fall of Damnos ), so why do people think that after this fluff references we can penetrate their armor with our infantry weapons?
And I personally doubt that USAF will send A-10 or AC-130 on a 10 men squad, they wouldn't even send Abrams on them not to mention aircraft who cost millions of dollars. I won't even mention nukes as we would do more damage to ourselves then to Astartes, the only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry, just like Imperial Guard.
Lasgun is roughly a .50 shot in power, the 25mm is much more powerful than a .50, probably even more than a bolt, at least its bigger, so yes, a shot of the thing should turn the SM head into slush.
King Pariah wrote:
It's all speculation, there's no hard evidence for either argument. And I lol'd really damn hard at the "only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry." Please, that hasn't been a viable tactic in decades (unless you happen to be China), there's a reason why FA is called the King of Battle. And don't be so sure we wouldn't "waste" million dollar weapon systems to pop ten or so SM. We've "wasted" such weapons on targets that posed a significantly lesser threat.
It's ok... When I said "only way to defeat them is to overrun them with infantry." I meant for Chapter in general, not just 10 Marines.
And I doubt that Fast Assault would succeed against Astartes who are masters of it ( they defeated the Tau that way, who are also masters in Fast Assault ).
I am sure that US would eventually use A-10, I was trying to say that they wouldn't use them immediately. They would first send platoon or two of infantry and only after they were defeated tanks and aircraft.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobthehero wrote:
Lasgun is roughly a .50 shot in power, the 25mm is much more powerful than a .50, probably even more than a bolt, at least its bigger, so yes, a shot of the thing should turn the SM head into slush.
But first you need to hit that head, second you need to penetrate the helmet and third you must survive the fire the net time.
Chances are slim given Astartes reaction time and strength of their armor. Remember that we are talking about super-human genetically altered Angels of Death not common solder.
But to be perfectly fair, nothing less then powerful sniper, tanks, artillery and aircraft would be able to even scratch them.
Like I said - you need to hit him first and not many people can do that from that distance today. Even if you hit him you can't be sure that marine would die as they survived much more dangerous stuff.
We aren't even sure that 25 mm rifle would even penetrate Astartes helmet, it is as hard as hell.
second off, the 25mm round that the XM-109 fires is roughly 2.5 more powerful than the .50 cal round fired by the M-107. In other words, it's a can opener, and by can opener, I mean tank popper.
Also, it's equipped with a computerized sight designed to assist to take out targets 1,000 meters out and farther and the effective distance armor piercing “lethality” for the rifle is 2000 meters.
Yeah, that could do some damage. Even from 3,6 kilometers as i can see.
But you could really kill just one marine with that rifle, not more. And if we take wind conditions and terrain and Astartes superior reflexes even that one shot will be difficult to preform.
Just because they can make a rifle that can shoot 2 or 3 km doesn't mean it will effectively hit it's target or even kill it with each shoot.
Bobthehero wrote:Most snipers would be able to take a 2 km shot, there was a time where the closest target the snipers fired at was 1.5 km away.
Most snipers - not most sharpshooters.
And what would he do against remaining 9? Or against Assault Marines?
I still think that the best way to deal with squad of Astartes is to send 150 - 200 troopers and eventually they will crumble.
Snipers are good - so are grenade launchers and 150 - 200 M16 with AP ammo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobthehero wrote:That is why you bring more than one rifle.
You try to hit target that sprints at 2 or 3 km, or even 150 meters.
Real life is not Call of Duty you know...
The SM won't close up 2 km in 2 seconds, they won't immediatly know where the shots are coming, the snipers can lay in ambush, wait for the SM to stop moving, open fire at the time, the OP doesn't mention assault marines.
And the BORS scope (the one on the XM-109) compensates for wind, heat, and all those nifty annoying factors that one has to take account for and has a rangefinder and night vision. 2km away, a team of ten SpecOps, bye bye SM.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You're just so convinced that their tech is so superior to our own. Did you ever think at what level our tech is at? Or how fast our tech improves? We're looking at a biologically immortal human race by roughly 2035, AI by 2050 (which also happens to be the technological singularity event past which we have no idea how fast the growth in technology will be). Currently we are developing, and successfully tested an artillery piece that can strike anywhere in the world from any one location with a vehicle that carries it's payload at Mach 30+. Hell, if humanity makes it to 3000 AD, you can be pretty sure we will have surpassed the Imperium of M41
The biological immortality? we already have access to it, and it's getting cheaper, and more easy to access (2005 the treatment costed $20,000 a month, today, $2000). You can thank Mrs. Henrietta Lacks for that.
Brother Coa wrote:That's still hardcore sci-fi - for now.
And I very much doubt everybody will have access to it when we have access to that level of technology.
not at all. You want lasers that heal people? Got'em. You have no clue how advanced the stuff we have today is. Please stop saying that the SM are uber-powerful gods of destruction when they can be taken out by pretty much any weapon we have today.
Brother Coa wrote:That's still hardcore sci-fi - for now. And I very much doubt everybody will have access to it when we have access to that level of technology.
not at all. You want lasers that heal people? Got'em. You have no clue how advanced the stuff we have today is. Please stop saying that the SM are uber-powerful gods of destruction when they can be taken out by pretty much any weapon we have today.
They kinda are McNinja. Space Marines have optics we can't even explain, they have a plasma cannon and a melta gun. Remember that the Space marine drop pod would come out of nowhere and probably drop in the midst of them and the biggest threat I.E. the sniper would be dead.
And who said space marines suck at stealth? Raven Guard would love to talk to you for just a moment.
And those who say well they aren't advanced.... There guns are .75mm rounds. Those are very big shells, those can kill anything. Depending on how experience the marine squad is, we are screwed if they are veterans, because space marines aren't all the lovable and see-able Ultramarines who don't wear camo like other chapters do.
Let us not forgot that sometimes Space Marines come with stalker pattern bolters, which make our sniper rifles look like crap. In the fluff (Telion) they can kill tyranid hive tyrants with a single shot.
We are also dealing with the 40k space marines grenades. Krak and frag grenades. And Krak grenades instead of exploding, Implode. Implosions are instant kills for anything having talked to my physics teacher about it, in theory a single implosion would destroy an entire tank.
Then they have adamanitum armor. Which just makes a mockery of metal. (Even though its fantasy most likely a mix between titanium and some other strong metal that we currently have discovered yet.) Then Cermaite which is incredibly heat resistant. Good luck finding the Marines if they don't even have a heat registry when they could randomly turn off their body to make it seem like they are dead. And how will we know that they are dead? We don't know their physiology knowing good ole military scientists they will bring them to a faculity try and study them and then they all die because the marine wakes up.
We cannot compare to a sci-fiction, where their basic weapon is 50x powerful than our most powerful assault rifle.
And those who say "Well lasguns can kill them!" You do realize that is traitor armor right? most of the time lasguns pierce through Traitor armor which is incredibly inferior to the newer marks of power armor.
Though that is all I am saying on this subject as I hate versus threads.
Now we this 5 Bradley Fighting Vehicles, each containing a special forces team 2 M1 Abrams Tanks 3 AH-64 Apache Helicopters 3 Black Hawk Helicopters each containing a special forces team 1 M270 MLRS 2 M109 Howitzers vs a marine tactical squad Okay thats unfair, the military wins then. They are outnumbered, outflanked, and outgunned. And no transports? What the hell is a single marine squad doing on a planet by themselves? "OH crap we forgot the rest of the company!" Anyway enjoy your debate.
Brother Coa wrote:That's still hardcore sci-fi - for now. And I very much doubt everybody will have access to it when we have access to that level of technology.
not at all. You want lasers that heal people? Got'em. You have no clue how advanced the stuff we have today is.
In that case I want a spaceship with a warp drive and I want to start colonizing the stars. And a time machine to visit the ancient sites. What did you guys said? 2035? I am so in it...
Please stop saying that the SM are uber-powerful gods of destruction when they can be taken out by pretty much any weapon we have today.
Right.... tell that to the others who tough like that and finished up in a pile of ruble. Like we can defeat Imeprium in war? We, a small planet with pitiful 7 billion against an empire of million worlds...
I am not saying we couldn't kill one marine squad - that is easy give n our tech - but some people think tha we can beat the Imeprium full power to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
King Pariah wrote:The biological immortality? we already have access to it, and it's getting cheaper, and more easy to access (2005 the treatment costed $20,000 a month, today, $2000). You can thank Mrs. Henrietta Lacks for that.
Maybe you in US and other rich countries, what is 95% of planet suppose to say...?
Brother Coa, for population control purposes, Species with longer longevity also tend to breed less. In a world with increasingly dwindling resources, it's become "necessary."
Also would like to say that HeLa cells (the key for biological immortality) is available in just about every country.
King Pariah wrote:Brother Coa, for population control purposes, Species with longer longevity also tend to breed less. In a world with increasingly dwindling resources, it's become "necessary."
Also would like to say that HeLa cells (the key for biological immortality) is available in just about every country.
Just because HeLa cells are immortal doesn't mean we will be immortal. Unless you can replace cardiac tissue with cancerous womb tissue then it's only speculation. We might be bettter off looking at the processes involving telomeres.
Anyway it's all hypothetical as we don't know how the marine armor, training, tactics and weapons compare to our modern day stuff.
My guess is that the marines make us pay dearly in blood. A marine is like Rambo, crossbred with the terminator, with a .75cal machine gun, anti-tank bombs, his skull can probably stop small arms fire, his armor probably needs to be breached by a HEAT round.
I think the best option is something like a Javelin anti-bunker/tank missile.
Brother Coa wrote:That's still hardcore sci-fi - for now.
And I very much doubt everybody will have access to it when we have access to that level of technology.
not at all. You want lasers that heal people? Got'em. You have no clue how advanced the stuff we have today is.
In that case I want a spaceship with a warp drive and I want to start colonizing the stars. And a time machine to visit the ancient sites. What did you guys said? 2035? I am so in it...
Please stop saying that the SM are uber-powerful gods of destruction when they can be taken out by pretty much any weapon we have today.
Right.... tell that to the others who tough like that and finished up in a pile of ruble. Like we can defeat Imeprium in war? We, a small planet with pitiful 7 billion against an empire of million worlds...
I am not saying we couldn't kill one marine squad - that is easy give n our tech - but some people think tha we can beat the Imeprium full power to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
King Pariah wrote:The biological immortality? we already have access to it, and it's getting cheaper, and more easy to access (2005 the treatment costed $20,000 a month, today, $2000). You can thank Mrs. Henrietta Lacks for that.
Maybe you in US and other rich countries, what is 95% of planet suppose to say...?
we aren't fighting an empire. We are fighting 10 space marines. Who land somewhere. Any snipers, and IFVs, anything is a RESPONSE to the space marines. You can't land in something that doesn't exist, because the sniper team hasn't been sent out yet! This thread is about 10 space marines landing in a DP somewhere on earth. Just ten. Not an army. Not a legion. Not the imperial navy. Not the imperial guard. Again, it doesn't matter if they have meltaguns, it doesn't matter if they have plasma cannons. You can't hit a plane moving at over 600 mph, you can't hit an invisible sniper team, especially if you have no reason to think the enemy would be searching for you.
Also, no one said anything about spaceships or warp drives. Considering that the Warp doesn't actually exist, that would be pointless, unless you meant star trek warp drives, in which case, we know how, but don't have the energy sources to do it. We know how to do pretty much anything sci-fi has presented, we just do not have the energy sources to make them reality. I don't know where you're getting time machine... The imperium doesn't have that capactiy, only a very, VERY small percentage of Necrons (who are the masters of the physical universe, by the way) can do that. Necrons are basically us in a few thousand years. And no, the IoM is not us in a few thousand years. Not with how our technology is progressing. Well, maybe they are, if everyone suddenly had a stroke and got brain damage.
McNinja wrote:
Maybe you in US and other rich countries, what is 95% of planet suppose to say...?
we aren't fighting an empire. We are fighting 10 space marines. Who land somewhere. Any snipers, and IFVs, anything is a RESPONSE to the space marines. You can't land in something that doesn't exist, because the sniper team hasn't been sent out yet! This thread is about 10 space marines landing in a DP somewhere on earth. Just ten. Not an army. Not a legion. Not the imperial navy. Not the imperial guard. Again, it doesn't matter if they have meltaguns, it doesn't matter if they have plasma cannons. You can't hit a plane moving at over 600 mph, you can't hit an invisible sniper team, especially if you have no reason to think the enemy would be searching for you.
Why are you explaining the same thign I said 2 posts ago?
Considering that the Warp doesn't actually exist, that would be pointless.
McNinja wrote:Necrons are basically us in a few thousand years.
Unless we run out of fossil fuel, our planet becomes to unstable to support life, asteroid hit us, supervulcano becomes active...
It is will be very interesting few thousand years if we survive until then.
the easiest way would be to provide fast moving targets that still posed a threat - F16s or something.
Bolters will be extremely dangerous, so you need to waste their ammo. Each marines can't be holding much more than maybe 150 shots or so (even this seems high), so that's about 1500 rounds you need them to expend.
McNinja wrote:we aren't fighting an empire. We are fighting 10 space marines. Who land somewhere. Any snipers, and IFVs, anything is a RESPONSE to the space marines. You can't land in something that doesn't exist, because the sniper team hasn't been sent out yet! This thread is about 10 space marines landing in a DP somewhere on earth. Just ten. Not an army. Not a legion. Not the imperial navy. Not the imperial guard. Again, it doesn't matter if they have meltaguns, it doesn't matter if they have plasma cannons. You can't hit a plane moving at over 600 mph, you can't hit an invisible sniper team, especially if you have no reason to think the enemy would be searching for you.
Why are you explaining the same thign I said 2 posts ago?
What? You keep going on about how we can't defeat an army of SM and how great they our and houw much of our stuff with get wreck if we try to fight them. You also said that the sniper team would be dead if a Drop Pod landed on them. If you had said any of this, I would have made that post. Or this one, for that matter.
Brother Coa wrote:
McNinja wrote:Considering that the Warp doesn't actually exist, that would be pointless.
McNinja wrote: unless you meant star trek warp drives, in which case, we know how, but don't have the energy sources to do it. We know how to do pretty much anything sci-fi has presented, we just do not have the energy sources to make them reality.
I said this. Or did you mistake my post for yours?
Brother Coa wrote:
McNinja wrote:Necrons are basically us in a few thousand years.
Unless we run out of fossil fuel, our planet becomes to unstable to support life, asteroid hit us, supervulcano becomes active...
It is will be very interesting few thousand years if we survive until then.
Let's see... not going to happen, not going to happen, and... not going to happen. We still have a huge reserve of oil under Alaska, our planet is nowhere near close to becoming unsuitable for sustaining life, any asteroid that has Earth in its crosshairs can be intercepted and redirected. NASA's budget may be crap, but they have great tech and smart people.
Twiqbal wrote:the easiest way would be to provide fast moving targets that still posed a threat - F16s or something.
Bolters will be extremely dangerous, so you need to waste their ammo. Each marines can't be holding much more than maybe 150 shots or so (even this seems high), so that's about 1500 rounds you need them to expend.
I'd rather fight them after that.
Considering that soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan would usually carry around 7 magazines if they were not on a military base (M4 30 round magazines x 7 +1 in the rifle already = 240 rounds), I would count on Space Marines have far more than 150 rounds.
This isn't The Day the Earth Stood Still. They aren't invulnerable. Any decent large-caliber rifle (and keep in mind we do have anti-tank rifles, they were developed in WWII, though recently they have fallen out of use) would give the Space Marines a run for their money, and if their armor works even remotely like modern day Chobam tank armor (which it should, it's damn good armor), then all you need to do if crack the ceramite plating once. Would a single shot do it? Probably not, but just because Space Marines have a good armor save in a game doesn't not mean that it works the same way in real life.
Armor doesn't last forever. It won't shrug off everything you throw at it, and it will degrade much more quickly with the application of greater amounts of force.
Actually, in the fluff marines are described as being a lot harder to kill than in the game. Still, I would imagine a HEAT round to the knee would be enough to hamper a marine's movement.
McNinja wrote:What? You keep going on about how we can't defeat an army of SM and how great they our and houw much of our stuff with get wreck if we try to fight them. You also said that the sniper team would be dead if a Drop Pod landed on them. If you had said any of this, I would have made that post. Or this one, for that matter.
An army, you were right about that - I said we can never beat a few Chapters or Legion but we can beat 10 men squad.
So why do you, again, repeat what I sad 2 posts earlier?
Brother Coa wrote:
McNinja wrote:Considering that the Warp doesn't actually exist, that would be pointless.
McNinja wrote: unless you meant star trek warp drives, in which case, we know how, but don't have the energy sources to do it. We know how to do pretty much anything sci-fi has presented, we just do not have the energy sources to make them reality.
I said this. Or did you mistake my post for yours?
Star Trek Warp Drive =/= Alcubirre's Warp Drive. One is pure fiction other is proven theoretically by scientific community.
Brother Coa wrote:
McNinja wrote:Necrons are basically us in a few thousand years.
Unless we run out of fossil fuel, our planet becomes to unstable to support life, asteroid hit us, supervulcano becomes active...
It is will be very interesting few thousand years if we survive until then.
Let's see... not going to happen, not going to happen, and... not going to happen. We still have a huge reserve of oil under Alaska, our planet is nowhere near close to becoming unsuitable for sustaining life, any asteroid that has Earth in its crosshairs can be intercepted and redirected. NASA's budget may be crap, but they have great tech and smart people.
You obliviously never heard about warning that we will deplete all Oil by 2080, even with Alaska and Pacific reserves ( 2011 research by American institute for energy reserves ), or that Yellowstone super volcano should have exploded in like 10.000 years ago but didn't - and that it may explode in a year or 10 and with it we can say good buy to our civilization. As for Asteroids we got lucky at least 4 times in the past 50 years, brass from NASA even said that they need at least 7 years time to prepare everything to make any comet or asteroid off course. And that means if they discover it few years or months to late - we are dead.
I am just saying that you can't say what will happened in the next 100 years when we don't know what kind of disaster can hit us in 10.
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