52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Yeah, after seeing all the new fliers orks are getting... yay? The models look awesome, but do they really have a place in most ork lists? I'm just starting orks so I don't have much, but I can see them being handy, if only for a hilariously over the top transport hunter (sad when transports are so good you have to kill them with freakin FIGHTER JETS) The supa dakkaguns or whatever they're called seem really good, and combined with the ace pilot could be a huge advantage when fliers become more commonplace, but for 5th edition it just seems like a souped up buggy.
The problem is, they seem to add more of the same to what we already have, lots and lots of anti infantry. I really want to use at least one just based on looks alone, but I don't know. Almost $50 is a lot to drop on a flying tin can that'll probably explode first turn, and for a guy like me that'd be a huge blow to my wallet. Does anybody see them as becoming useful for ork players in any sort of list? I think they might work well in small point games where there won't be much higher AV targets and not as much anti tank, but that'd be about it. Fly em deep into enemy lines drawing fire and firing into rear armor as possible, buying time for units to move up. Might work well with a battlewagon bash/ green tide list.
What do you guys think?
(yes, I know it was only a matter of time till someone started it, so I figured i'd go ahead and get it out of the way now  )
17661
Post by: greenbay924
Well, of the three the only one I like is the dakkajet, since it's the only one that doesn't have to get right in the opponent's face and be like "yes please, blow me up kthnx."
I was thinking about it, and having 9 TL shots at BS3 is pretty good, only downside is the S6 making it pretty pointless in a force org slot where we already have units capable of doing the exact. same. thing. when it comes to anti transport.
A kitted out dakkajet clocks in at the same points cost as 9 lootas, and there's quite a few advantages the jet has over that loota squad, putting out potentially the same amount of hurt, but being able to actually SEE something. A lot of my games recently forces me to put my lootas in places where they really can't see/shoot much.
My largest gripe is AV10 and NOTHING to add to its survivability. It's size would suggest it won't be getting much in the way of a cover save, and keeping it close to a KFF might hamstring it from getting those side armor shots off.
Either way, I want to get a couple just because they're awesome models, but I'm not sure the rules will justify the initial investment.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Well if the dakka jet is roughly comparable, would it be a better buy in real life cash than trying to buy something like 9 buggies or lootas? For a guy like me whons just getting together an ork army, only spending 50bucks for an effective FA slot sounds way better than having to drop over a 100 bucks for a less awesome yet more proven model.
Plus, if what the kit looks like it has is true, it comes with several wings. If thats the case, all you would need to do is get a cheap model airplane and a vendetta base and you'd have 2 or 3 of em for dirt cheap.
Plus I'm sure these things like all units are better when you have multiples instead of just one. I guess we wont know that for sure thiough until people get a few games with them in and get used to them.
16335
Post by: Witzkatz
Allright I have to ask, where are Orks getting new fliers? What's the source for this? I couldn't find anything on the GW website or ForgeWorld.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
The dakkajets and lootas are different force orgs. An ork player could take 3 of each.
The dakkajet can move 12 or 13" and shoot everything, so it can keep up with a kff mek in a wagon.
I can also do well in reserve.
Big problem is the av10 and the other side willbe motivated to kill the jet before it can take advantage of a waaaaaaaaaaagh.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
After reading the actual rules and point costs, I'm actually quite happy with them. Dakkajet For 120 points (I see no reason to not take the third supa-shoota) you get 9 TL BS3 shots with strength 6 against anything except jumpers (who cares?) and skimmer (*shakes fist towards mech edlar*). You can get an upgrade to hit those at BS3, too, but unless you really hate dark eldar, I wouldn't spend 10 points just for that. But wait - BS3 twinlinked? As in hitting 75% of the time? With nine strength 6 shots? 18 during our Waagh!? A rhino will suffer 1.125 penetrating and glancing hits from one volley, the same amount of points in lootaz would cause 1.8 penetrating and .9 glancing, a unit of buggies causes .8 penetrating and .3 glancing. So lootaz are still better at destroying and supressing vehicles, but buggies are worse than the dakka jet - at least vs AV11. Against AV12 the dakka jet obviously is worse at destroying, but still better at suppressing. So you can pretty much fire a dakka jet across half the table into the front armor of a manticore and expect it to be shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed. Not so for the unit of buggies. 30" range also makes it possible to simply have them flank your KFF mek(s) and shoot from there. Unless you really need a tank dead, there is no need to move out of the protective KFF. In addition to the range, not being open topped also makes them much harder to take out with small arms. I might be wrong here, but I think it's an improvement over buggies. Burna Bommer For just five point more than an upgraded Dakkajet you get two killa koptaz with big shootaz and bombs in one vehicle. If you add another 60 point you can also carpet comb any light infantry of the table once per game. As all ork anti-infantry shooting, completely ineffective against MEQ. Seems too expensive - 185 points for an array of one-shot weappons and a pair of weapons great at killing light infantry doesn't cut it. Boyz are awesome at killing light infantry, unless you are the Arch-Arsonist himself and insist on igniting everything, I wouldn't bother. Blitza Bommer For another 10 points over the naked Burna Bommer, you get a supa-shoota, a random big shoota and two one-shot bombs that are effectively SAGs shooting a plane instead of snotlings. People are already crying how random boom bombs are, but are missing the point really. No matter what, you get a maximum of two shots at destroying a vehicle by moving within 1" of it. If everything goes well (5+ with 2d6 - or 83.33%) you drop a S7 small blast with 2d6 armor penetration and 1d6 scatter on top of some unlucky tank. Sometimes you even get to blast the vehicle with your shootas as well for awesomeness. Following the bigbomm FAQ, you probably don't get do reduce scatter by BS, but missing a vehicle with 1d6 is hard, and one third are hits anyways. So that's a 83% chance do drop the equivalent of a melta-bomb while moving 13" (you can paint them red! Only useful for this one though imo) and then turn around and blast another vehicle with S6 and S5 into it's rear. Sadly the supa-shoota is the usual BS2 on this one, the big shoota is manned by a grot though. If something goes wrong (3-4 on 2d6 or 13.99%) you don't drop a bomb and both vehicles suffer an S9 AP2 hit. You bommer is probably taking a penetrating hit from that, but as he is not open topped, chances are still 50-50 of leaving the crash unharmed. However, the other vehicles gets no less than an automatic lascannon hit - last time I checked lascannons were good at destroying vehicles, I really don't see much of a downside. Except the bommer possibly crashing, but on the other hand, you get to keep your bomb and drop it on someone else if it survives. If something goes terribly wrong (2 on 2d6 or 2.77%) the plane crashes, the fuel and bombs all ignite at once and turn into a huge fireball killing everything close by. No, really. You get to place a large blast marker over the target, scatter it 2d6 and now the big one: It's not a blast weapon. Every unit takes S9 AP2 hits for every model partially under the blast marker. Sounds like a blast? Read it again - every model partially under the blast marker. Including vehicles. No half strength for scattering the hole off. Of course, you can potentially scatter away and hit nothing, but if you do hit something, including vehicles they get lascannon hits. I can't think of anything more awesome than a blitza bommer crashing into an IG or BA parking lot. Lots and lots of dead vehicles. So, unless you are rolling a snake eyes (which might still result in a lot of things dying), you have a pretty reliable anti-tank platform here. Reliable and anti-tank is very rare for orks, so I think this one's a keeper, too. Automatically Appended Next Post: Witzkatz wrote:Allright I have to ask, where are Orks getting new fliers? What's the source for this? I couldn't find anything on the GW website or ForgeWorld.
Search The Waagh! or Warseer for Dakkajet Rules, Dakkadakka doesn't allow posting them. The will be in the new White Dwarf Issue. schadenfreude wrote:The dakkajets and lootas are different force orgs. An ork player could take 3 of each.
The dakkajet can move 12 or 13" and shoot everything, so it can keep up with a kff mek in a wagon.
I can also do well in reserve.
Big problem is the av10 and the other side willbe motivated to kill the jet before it can take advantage of a waaaaaaaaaaagh.
This is probably one way to go. AV10 is a problem, but it can stay close to the KFF and isn't open topped. It is most likely more survivable than a unit of buggies. In addition, weapons shooting them are not shooting battlewagons or lootaz meanwhile.
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Post by: Ratius
Survivability is my big issue with these badboys.
Even with a KFF, AV10 is pitiful and as mentioned on a flying base + model size means pretty much no cover on most battlefields one sees.
Will it put out enough damage to counter that vulnerability and make its points back/impact the game?
Im not sure on the better than buggy thing Jid. buggies are easier to hide. There are 3 of them in a unit which means 3 pens rather than just 1, they pack decent firepower themselves and are fairly manouverable. Granted their pen ratios isnt as good but.
Is this thing supersonic? I.e can it move flat out 36 and get a 4+ cover save? That might be decent for flanking tanks etc and getting side/rear armor shots.
42002
Post by: Kharrak
Ratius wrote:Is this thing supersonic? I.e can it move flat out 36 and get a 4+ cover save? That might be decent for flanking tanks etc and getting side/rear armor shots.
All the Ork fliers have supersonic.
I'm eager to try out the Dakkajet and the Blitzabomma in general - the Burnabomma only really against nids and Orks particularly.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
] Ratius wrote:Survivability is my big issue with these badboys.
Even with a KFF, AV10 is pitiful and as mentioned on a flying base + model size means pretty much no cover on most battlefields one sees.
A KFF already gives them cover, making the size irrelevant. Battlewagons and trukks are also quite tall, so if the big mek is inside one, the jets aren't forced to sit on top of it. An AV10 vehicle with a 4+ save is more survivable than a Vendetta.
Will it put out enough damage to counter that vulnerability and make its points back/impact the game?
An almost guaranteed shake of an AV12 vehicle first turn is bound to make an impact. Reserving them is also possible, as 36" flat out moves(to answer your queston) are bound to get them to where they are needed when they arrive.
Im not sure on the better than buggy thing Jid. buggies are easier to hide. There are 3 of them in a unit which means 3 pens rather than just 1
They are destroyed on 5+ by glances and a 3+ by penetrating hits though, where the Dakkajet will only die to penetrating hits scoring a 5+ or more. You also don't hide your buggies most of time, because both the ugly original and the common deff kopta conversion usually can't shoot when hidden.
they pack decent firepower themselves and are fairly manouverable. Granted their pen ratios isnt as good but.
Mind you, this is my first imperession without ever having played them at all. They are very close either way, so it even might boil down to them being equals and a pure matter of taste
19377
Post by: Grundz
I'm liking the dakkajet
A little pricey, sure, but if supersonic gives the 12" range reduction, or only hit on 6's, or any number of the FW improvements in 6th edition, its a shoe-in.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
Also consider that in 6th, vehicles with supersonic and will likely play very different to how they play currently. In the leaked playtest, the supersonic move made them far more difficult to hit when using supersonic, increasing their survivability. This had the trade off of also making them harder to line up consistantly against targets of worth.
30073
Post by: revackey
I love the models, heck I'm even planning out the Ork Army I've always wanted to field because of them and throwing my Eldar aside for now. 3 Dakka Jets + 4 BW + 2 Lootas Squads seems nice to me.
I think the big thing is their potential, like said, they'll probably improve in 6E, and being able to spit out 54 S6 shots on a turn 2 WAAGH is awesome.
57667
Post by: MadmanMSU
I play Blood Angels, so my opinion stems mostly from having used the Stormraven. Given my personal experiences, I don't think the Dakkajet is going to be worth it. I like it on paper, but it will probably suffer from the same situational issues that the Storm-raven does....which is that if it fails it's save, you're out a lot of points. Now, I don't play Orks, so maybe 130-150 points isn't a lot, but I wonder how many Boyz you could have for that much?
Additionally, the impression that I'm getting (which may very well be wrong, time will tell) is that 6th edition is going to be the death of the light transport. So even if the Dakkajet turns out to be the ultimate anti-light vehicle for Orks, I have a sneaking suspicion it won't matter anyway, because people are going to be taking a lot less AV11 hulls.
34456
Post by: ColdSadHungry
These flyers really do have me worried - I think we're about to see a huge change in the way 40K plays. Imperial Armour 11 contains a vehicle called a firestorm which has 'anti-aircraft' weaponry. And the leaked 6th ed book stated that only units with the 'airborne' rule can assault flyers. These two things alone make it so difficult to consider the worth of flyers whilst we're still in 5th edition regardless of how much firepower they can bring. I think it'll all be down to just how easy one army can deal with them compared to another and we'll only know that once 6th hits. Unlike now, where something like the storm raven is way too easy to shoot down.
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Post by: marauder6272
oh man, I can't wait for these to come out. One of my favorite units from epic 40k were the fighta-bommerz. Mainly, I think, because I just love the idea of ork fighter pilots (yes, Deff Skwadron is one of my favorite comics ever) and the rules are looking interesting. The Blitza-Bommer in particular looking like it could provide orks with some much-needed anti-tank support
19377
Post by: Grundz
ColdSadHungry wrote:These flyers really do have me worried - I think we're about to see a huge change in the way 40K plays. Imperial Armour 11 contains a vehicle called a firestorm which has 'anti-aircraft' weaponry. And the leaked 6th ed book stated that only units with the 'airborne' rule can assault flyers. These two things alone make it so difficult to consider the worth of flyers whilst we're still in 5th edition regardless of how much firepower they can bring. I think it'll all be down to just how easy one army can deal with them compared to another and we'll only know that once 6th hits. Unlike now, where something like the storm raven is way too easy to shoot down.
exactly
consider
1. they have a big oval base
2. they can't be assaulted
this leads to all kinds of shananagins blocking units that can't move over the base that will totally erupt the game into a firestorm of stupidity.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
However, if it's a flyer, maybe they'll make it so that units can move through their bases? the thing is "flying" after all.
Another question. How is the KFF going to be measured for this thing? Do we have to measure to the actual fuselage of the aircraft or do we measure to the base? Either way i can see this leading to shenanigans.
42002
Post by: Kharrak
MrMoustaffa wrote:However, if it's a flyer, maybe they'll make it so that units can move through their bases? the thing is "flying" after all.
Another question. How is the KFF going to be measured for this thing? Do we have to measure to the actual fuselage of the aircraft or do we measure to the base? Either way i can see this leading to shenanigans.
You measure from hull, so from the top of the battlewagon, to any part of the flier.
If the big mek is by himself, it would have to be from the base, unfortunately.
37335
Post by: DakkaHammer
Kharrak wrote:MrMoustaffa wrote:However, if it's a flyer, maybe they'll make it so that units can move through their bases? the thing is "flying" after all.
Another question. How is the KFF going to be measured for this thing? Do we have to measure to the actual fuselage of the aircraft or do we measure to the base? Either way i can see this leading to shenanigans.
You measure from hull, so from the top of the battlewagon, to any part of the flier.
If the big mek is by himself, it would have to be from the base, unfortunately.
Keeping that giant base close to the battewagon is going to mess with keeping my trukks under the KFF too.
And I am a person who likes to ignite everything, so I really want to try out the burna bommer. But is there any way that nearly 200pts for an AV10 vehicle is going to be worth it? I'm assuming that the six skorcha missiles are an important part of the burny death, because I don't see a way that it could get into position to use a burna bomm at cruising speed without dying. 
41641
Post by: Vid
revackey wrote:I love the models, heck I'm even planning out the Ork Army I've always wanted to field because of them and throwing my Eldar aside for now. 3 Dakka Jets + 4 BW + 2 Lootas Squads seems nice to me.
I think the big thing is their potential, like said, they'll probably improve in 6E, and being able to spit out 54 S6 shots on a turn 2 WAAGH is awesome.
Even though the idea of it is cool and they seem like they can dish out quite a hurt, it seems they would lack survivability and I say this because for 140 points you can field about two Deffkopters in its place; and six of them in place of 3 of the jets. I feel that you'd make your boys stay alive faster if your opponent had to shoot 2 LasCannons at 2 Deffcopters then 1 Las at pretty much guaranteed pen against the jet.
With that said any saves that a Jet can make a deffcopter could also make. That's my opinion, anyway.
27204
Post by: Tarkand
To me, it seems that if you are running Dakkajet, you are running a list with vehicle and a big mek... leave the jet behind the BW, they can shoot over it and have cover. Trukks can be in front/beside the BW.
I don't think cover will be an issue.
47994
Post by: Kasrkin229
Jidmah wrote:After reading the actual rules and point costs, I'm actually quite happy with them.
Dakkajet
For 120 points (I see no reason to not take the third supa-shoota) you get 9 TL BS3 shots with strength 6 against anything except jumpers (who cares?) and skimmer (*shakes fist towards mech edlar*). You can get an upgrade to hit those at BS3, too, but unless you really hate dark eldar, I wouldn't spend 10 points just for that.
But wait - BS3 twinlinked? As in hitting 75% of the time? With nine strength 6 shots? 18 during our Waagh!?
A rhino will suffer 1.125 penetrating and glancing hits from one volley, the same amount of points in lootaz would cause 1.8 penetrating and .9 glancing, a unit of buggies causes .8 penetrating and .3 glancing.
So lootaz are still better at destroying and supressing vehicles, but buggies are worse than the dakka jet - at least vs AV11. Against AV12 the dakka jet obviously is worse at destroying, but still better at suppressing. So you can pretty much fire a dakka jet across half the table into the front armor of a manticore and expect it to be shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed. Not so for the unit of buggies. 30" range also makes it possible to simply have them flank your KFF mek(s) and shoot from there. Unless you really need a tank dead, there is no need to move out of the protective KFF. In addition to the range, not being open topped also makes them much harder to take out with small arms.
I might be wrong here, but I think it's an improvement over buggies.
Burna Bommer
For just five point more than an upgraded Dakkajet you get two killa koptaz with big shootaz and bombs in one vehicle. If you add another 60 point you can also carpet comb any light infantry of the table once per game. As all ork anti-infantry shooting, completely ineffective against MEQ. Seems too expensive - 185 points for an array of one-shot weappons and a pair of weapons great at killing light infantry doesn't cut it. Boyz are awesome at killing light infantry, unless you are the Arch-Arsonist himself and insist on igniting everything, I wouldn't bother.
Blitza Bommer
For another 10 points over the naked Burna Bommer, you get a supa-shoota, a random big shoota and two one-shot bombs that are effectively SAGs shooting a plane instead of snotlings. People are already crying how random boom bombs are, but are missing the point really. No matter what, you get a maximum of two shots at destroying a vehicle by moving within 1" of it. If everything goes well (5+ with 2d6 - or 83.33%) you drop a S7 small blast with 2d6 armor penetration and 1d6 scatter on top of some unlucky tank. Sometimes you even get to blast the vehicle with your shootas as well for awesomeness. Following the bigbomm FAQ, you probably don't get do reduce scatter by BS, but missing a vehicle with 1d6 is hard, and one third are hits anyways. So that's a 83% chance do drop the equivalent of a melta-bomb while moving 13" (you can paint them red! Only useful for this one though imo) and then turn around and blast another vehicle with S6 and S5 into it's rear. Sadly the supa-shoota is the usual BS2 on this one, the big shoota is manned by a grot though.
If something goes wrong (3-4 on 2d6 or 13.99%) you don't drop a bomb and both vehicles suffer an S9 AP2 hit. You bommer is probably taking a penetrating hit from that, but as he is not open topped, chances are still 50-50 of leaving the crash unharmed. However, the other vehicles gets no less than an automatic lascannon hit - last time I checked lascannons were good at destroying vehicles, I really don't see much of a downside. Except the bommer possibly crashing, but on the other hand, you get to keep your bomb and drop it on someone else if it survives.
If something goes terribly wrong (2 on 2d6 or 2.77%) the plane crashes, the fuel and bombs all ignite at once and turn into a huge fireball killing everything close by. No, really. You get to place a large blast marker over the target, scatter it 2d6 and now the big one: It's not a blast weapon. Every unit takes S9 AP2 hits for every model partially under the blast marker. Sounds like a blast? Read it again - every model partially under the blast marker. Including vehicles. No half strength for scattering the hole off. Of course, you can potentially scatter away and hit nothing, but if you do hit something, including vehicles they get lascannon hits. I can't think of anything more awesome than a blitza bommer crashing into an IG or BA parking lot. Lots and lots of dead vehicles.
So, unless you are rolling a snake eyes (which might still result in a lot of things dying), you have a pretty reliable anti-tank platform here. Reliable and anti-tank is very rare for orks, so I think this one's a keeper, too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Witzkatz wrote:Allright I have to ask, where are Orks getting new fliers? What's the source for this? I couldn't find anything on the GW website or ForgeWorld.
Search The Waagh! or Warseer for Dakkajet Rules, Dakkadakka doesn't allow posting them. The will be in the new White Dwarf Issue.
schadenfreude wrote:The dakkajets and lootas are different force orgs. An ork player could take 3 of each.
The dakkajet can move 12 or 13" and shoot everything, so it can keep up with a kff mek in a wagon.
I can also do well in reserve.
Big problem is the av10 and the other side willbe motivated to kill the jet before it can take advantage of a waaaaaaaaaaagh.
This is probably one way to go. AV10 is a problem, but it can stay close to the KFF and isn't open topped. It is most likely more survivable than a unit of buggies. In addition, weapons shooting them are not shooting battlewagons or lootaz meanwhile.
Keep in mind with Flyers all normally front armor shots count as side armor .....
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Went to my FLGS today and talked to a couple of our vets today about the fliers. These guys routinely go to the big tourneys, and know a good amount about most armies and what they tend to bring at the big games. Both are Space wolf/ IG players mainly, if that helps any.
At first glance they were not impressed with any of the ork planes. Then I mentioned the dakka jet and how I couldn't wait to get one, both look back and start reading the rules, and got very excited. Interestingly, they werent concerned with the ace pilot, and instead only talked about the extra supa shoota and the waagh rule. They came to the consesus that dakkajets are going to become very common in tourneys before 6th, and that reserving them until a waaaagh gets called could be very nasty. As one guy put it "I have a feeling we're going to be facing a LOT of those." Another interesting thing they mentioned was that while the thing is dead the turn it arrives, turbo boosting to opposite corners of the enemy deployment could be very rough on both their guard and wolves armies, as they would have to make some tough decisions on what to shoot. Then again, the fact you can shake one with a bolter doesnt bode well for them, so they'd stil probably die
I know it's not much, but the fact that two of the big players at my store both think they'll be a threat is a good sign. Obviously we wont know for sure until they come out, but it's good to hear nonetheless. If they're playing 2 of the toughest armies in the game right now and they're concerned about it, these might be handy afterall...
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Well, flyers are always tough to face. Staying in reserve and getting cover saves from staying behind terrain (or a battle wagon) or turbo boosting will help to keep them alive.
The enemy has to make some tough decisions what to shoot. After all, a flyer can contest and this will make the enemy's decisions even harder.
49616
Post by: grendel083
Might be seeing more Weirdboyz, more Waaagh! means more Dakka!
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Grendel your a genius. I had a Weirdboy in my previous list and now it ties in and makes it even stronger I'm happy 
Now to make him tie in with the whole Orkie squadron theme....
18594
Post by: geordie09
Its a shame you can't squadron them like vendettas, it'd be nice to take it to the Imp Guard players who overload on them at tournaments!
49616
Post by: grendel083
InquisitorVaron wrote:Grendel your a genius. I had a Weirdboy in my previous list and now it ties in and makes it even stronger I'm happy
Now to make him tie in with the whole Orkie squadron theme....
Model your Weirdboy with a large walkie talkie.
"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over"
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Post by: gpfunk
grendel083 wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:Grendel your a genius. I had a Weirdboy in my previous list and now it ties in and makes it even stronger I'm happy
Now to make him tie in with the whole Orkie squadron theme....
Model your Weirdboy with a large walkie talkie.
"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over"
If I could play this every time, I'd bring three dakka jets to all my games.
55500
Post by: bmoleski
I kinda feel like all the new aircraft are gimmicky. A sales ploy by GW (which is fine and dandy) but I can't help but feel......meh. I'm kinda tired of GW coming out with all kinds of new things all the time when they can't even keep their codicies updated.
47994
Post by: Kasrkin229
Personally i like the idea of the Dakka Jets because IMHO orks are slighlty out classed in some areas ( coming from a Guard Player ) But looking At the Stats from the Dakka Jet it seems as if it's a little....Strength 6 Heavy , considering this i think that Hydras would have little problems punching holes in it ( Yes it's a Quad- AA cannon ) but what i might ask is Why did GW not allow Squadrens of them ? Fluff wise orks are to disorganized but What the hell , Nice to see some none IG/Blood Raven Flyers at games.................. actually going to have to put funding into a Hydra now .....
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
It's because the orks have because of the combination of lots of guns and high speed. If the guns were any stronger than Str6 fluff wise the plane would shake itself to bits.
It's a breath of fresh air.
I'm running one at 500P and three at 1000p.
Going for reserves then speeding in 12' on a Waaagh at 500p.
At 1000p I'm going to turbo-boost right into the enemy and waaagh on turn 2. Got a weirdboy as aforementioned so even more dakka.
It's going to be fun. 
58402
Post by: FenWulf29
Well i would think that 6th edition will make flyers a lot more common. As well as that at the moment i can see the bommers as being something that the enmey will spend all shooting phase trying to destroy.
But any way dakka jets look so cool
42471
Post by: flashkid123
That will all change in 6th my friend...
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
For the better no doubt.
I would be suprised if they made it so only certain things can shoot down flyers, would make sense of the Ace rule.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Yeah, I just don't want to see this game turn into "whoever can kill the other guy's fliers first wins." Yeah they add a new level of flexibility to the game and all, but I'm worried what they're up to.
Just remember, anything that buffs the dakkajet will also be buffing the vendetta as well...
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
flashkid123 wrote:That will all change in 6th my friend...
What are the secrets of the 6th edition that we don't know?
36809
Post by: loota boy
grendel083 wrote:"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over"
Sig'd!
Also, i'm gunna have to start scratch building a few of these bad boyz. Just too awesome to go without. I'm thinking a pair of dakka jets, and later a blitza-bomma or three. After i finish my super heavy of course...
8520
Post by: Leth
I am gonna wait for the 6th edition before I decide how I am going to make both of mine. Hate to make a kit and then a month later find it doesnt work. I also want to see how the Ork FAQ will change things for the new edition.
15658
Post by: Shake Zoola
loota boy wrote:grendel083 wrote:"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over"
Sig'd!
Also, i'm gunna have to start scratch building a few of these bad boyz. Just too awesome to go without. I'm thinking a pair of dakka jets, and later a blitza-bomma or three. After i finish my super heavy of course...
Sig'd as well!
Figured this was good enough to go under the quote i sig'd off you ages ago loota!
19377
Post by: Grundz
loota boy wrote:grendel083 wrote:"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over"
Sig'd!
Also, i'm gunna have to start scratch building a few of these bad boyz. Just too awesome to go without. I'm thinking a pair of dakka jets, and later a blitza-bomma or three. After i finish my super heavy of course...
35686
Post by: Sigmundr
Probably gonna see how difficult the kit would be to magnetize, would love to be able to swap between the blitz bommer and the dakkajet. If the warseer rules are accurate, the bommer would be a barrel of laughs in friendly games. Dakkajets definetly for more competitive games.
Either way, super geeked about these. Got some escorts for the blasta bommer from IA8 that I'm building. Look to be the same size as the FW fighter/bommer, and more detailed, so I'd be using them with the flyer rules for apoc games.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
I'm thinking that the best things are to reserve and Waaagh or to turbo boost right into the enemy lines claim the save then Waaagh!
43836
Post by: Bacms
I have to agree the dakkajet seems to be the best option.
Burna bomber it is pretty much useless at the moment and the bomber as a more restricted use in my opinion special since you pay the same for the same survivability.
I agree with Jidmah in them being more useful than buggies.
I can see them going very well with a 4BW list since everything will be a in your face threat from turn 2. I can also seem them working with a kan wall type list although I am still not convinced that in game they will perform better than Buzzkoptas, they are nonetheless a bit less suicidal so it might work but have to try them in games first.
Another problem is that you always need more than 1 for sure and because of this they can get expensive really quickly. Still in a codex where anti tank is hard to come bye they fit rather well at the moment in IMHO
36809
Post by: loota boy
This will be great for reserves for me, because often times, I find that I have very little need for a waaagh! (shocking, i know!) because i generally can get that turn two charge without the extra d6. I usually save it for later to run into units my opponant thought were safe. Now, reserving my Waaagh! will be even more useful.
58402
Post by: FenWulf29
flashkid123 wrote:That will all change in 6th my friend...
Yeah i guessed it would, also hopefully they will make it so that you cant attack a plane in close combat
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Hopefully? Almost certainly. Negates some armies really badly though *cough* Orks *cough* but we'd do fine
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Another thing to consider is that with their mobility these vehicles will be able to get rear shots alot of the time. Fairly accurate Str6 in high quantity will make anything that isn't a Land Raider/Monolith nervous.
36809
Post by: loota boy
I hope that jump infantry and similar will be able to assault aircraft though. Lots of jump infantry out there need a buff.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Could you jump up to a plane attack it for any length of time enough to do damage then land safely?
Bullets are the only thing that works, or fliers hitting into things. I think they should add a wreckage rule for it landing onto the ground from the air.
50384
Post by: Sencho
There has been a lot of talk in this thread about the new jets being flyers instead of skimmers (which they are listed as right now). Is flyers in 6th edition all just speculation at this point or is there any concrete evidence of it (obviously these releases of vehicles that don't really seem to fit under skimmer rules seems to point to more such releases). Also, when is it thought that 6th will come out?
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
I think it's this year or the next. Not sure though, probably in the news and rumours section.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
This July is the rumored release of 6th edition, along with the Chaos Legions codex.
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
InquisitorVaron wrote:Could you jump up to a plane attack it for any length of time enough to do damage then land safely?
Bullets are the only thing that works, or fliers hitting into things. I think they should add a wreckage rule for it landing onto the ground from the air.
Look at the Stormboyz in Space Marine for an idea of how it'd look.
53740
Post by: ZebioLizard2
AlmightyWalrus wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:Could you jump up to a plane attack it for any length of time enough to do damage then land safely?
Bullets are the only thing that works, or fliers hitting into things. I think they should add a wreckage rule for it landing onto the ground from the air.
Look at the Stormboyz in Space Marine for an idea of how it'd look.
Clogging up the engine with your bodies is still a valid tactic!
36809
Post by: loota boy
Does anyone know about how big these things are? Like, say, in comparison to a battlewagon?
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
1.5 I would say, going off the scale in WD.
About 4-6 Nobz high.
37335
Post by: DakkaHammer
InquisitorVaron wrote:Hopefully? Almost certainly. Negates some armies really badly though *cough* Orks *cough* but we'd do fine
Well, maybe boarding planks will still work. 
I was looking at the burna bommer again, and it doesn't seem like it will even have a chance to drop it's bombs. It can only move 13" (and still drop), has to pass over a squad to drop the bomm, It has a 4" long base, and it can't tank-shock. This means that you have to be very close and perfectly lined up to actually be able to drop the bomm. Is dropping the bomm with any effect realistically possible against an opponent that knows the rules?
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Nothing prevents you from flying sideways though. You also don't need to fly over the unit, you stop 1" from the unit and drop the bomb, then you can continue to move wherever you want, as long as you are not going flat-out.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
But we're still all in agreement about the Dakkajet with extra shoota is the way forward?
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Wasn't there a picture of a dakka jet with three pairs of supa-shootas in the white dwarf?
4712
Post by: GCMandrake
InquisitorVaron wrote:But we're still all in agreement about the Dakkajet with extra shoota is the way forward?
Yes. Fighter Ace upgrade still seems up in the air though.
Considering taking three. Supersonic over the enemy first turn. Then, shoot the enemy vehicles in the back. If they turn around to return fire, your lootas shoot them in the back instead.
53223
Post by: Crimson-King2120
I run a biker boyz list and am seriously considering afding a pair of these
465
Post by: Redbeard
I'm not impressed with the representation of these airplanes in the rules. Skimmers, even fast skimmers, have always represented low-flying, hovering vehicles, usually tanks, that glide just off the surface (hence being assaultable).
Planes, especially ork planes, shouldn't be hovering, and that seems to be the way that you'll need to use these; hovering near a big mek.
Maybe 6e will present better flyer rules, more in-line with the apocalypse rules. Always being visible (big and high up), and AV10 is no way to go through life unless you're hard to hit, and jet planes should be required to move every turn. I can't buy that the orks have (or would want) harrier tech.
48698
Post by: Eiluj The Farseer
I agree I would rather see them keep up on codices, but they are never going to do that, instead they will take time to come out with stupid games like dreadfleet and more hobbits in Dec which does anyone play LOTR?
34390
Post by: whembly
Redbeard wrote:I'm not impressed with the representation of these airplanes in the rules. Skimmers, even fast skimmers, have always represented low-flying, hovering vehicles, usually tanks, that glide just off the surface (hence being assaultable).
Planes, especially ork planes, shouldn't be hovering, and that seems to be the way that you'll need to use these; hovering near a big mek.
Maybe 6e will present better flyer rules, more in-line with the apocalypse rules. Always being visible (big and high up), and AV10 is no way to go through life unless you're hard to hit, and jet planes should be required to move every turn. I can't buy that the orks have (or would want) harrier tech.
Hey... take a look at this:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/451843.page
Cliffnotes...
Step 1: Take DakkaJets with RPJ
Step 2: Move 13" to get 4+ coversave and still shoot
Step 3: cut your KFF mek umbilical cord and wreck havoc!
31737
Post by: Zogash
whembly wrote:Redbeard wrote:I'm not impressed with the representation of these airplanes in the rules. Skimmers, even fast skimmers, have always represented low-flying, hovering vehicles, usually tanks, that glide just off the surface (hence being assaultable).
Planes, especially ork planes, shouldn't be hovering, and that seems to be the way that you'll need to use these; hovering near a big mek.
Maybe 6e will present better flyer rules, more in-line with the apocalypse rules. Always being visible (big and high up), and AV10 is no way to go through life unless you're hard to hit, and jet planes should be required to move every turn. I can't buy that the orks have (or would want) harrier tech.
Hey... take a look at this:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/451843.page
Cliffnotes...
Step 1: Take DakkaJets with RPJ
Step 2: Move 13" to get 4+ coversave and still shoot
Step 3: cut your KFF mek umbilical cord and wreck havoc!
Doesn't work that way, unfortunately... To get the 4+ save, you have to go 'Flat Out' (not Combat Speed). RP may let you move more than 12", but for you still count (!) as moving with Combat Speed (-> not 'Flat Out'), thus no save. At least that's how I read it...
465
Post by: Redbeard
Okay, let's say the RPJ trick does work. You still have a JET FIGHTER restraining its speed to 13", slower than a trukk can drive over rough ground (and roughly half-as-fast as a trukk can move over a road) in order to shoot something.
I don't see what was wrong with the apoc flyer rules, and why they didn't adapt them for normal 40k games. Maybe things that work like Blackhawks are reasonable to consider skimmers, but not fighter jets.
39296
Post by: gpfunk
I am honestly really stoked about the fliers. They just look incredibly badass. Can't wait to fill up that FA with the Dakka Jets. The idea of 'em doing a fly by over a wall of battlewagons seems so epic. Anywho, enough fan boying.
Certainly wish they had given them something just a bit more av than 10. I mean...at least as much as a rhino for feth sake!
465
Post by: Redbeard
I agree, they appear too vulnerable as is. But, airplanes shouldn't have thick armour. What they should have is a way to avoid getting hit, whether that be a built-in cover save or a modifier to opponent hit rolls.
34390
Post by: whembly
I think the DakkaJets are either in a fast army (Kult of Speed) or used as a firing platform under the KFF bubble.
I think they synergize really well with biker lists or a trukk spam list... as it forces your opponent some tuff target priorities.
56152
Post by: angelsvermillion
What army do people think they will work best along side? Mech, infantry horde or what ever?
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
I was thinking either battlewagon spam or a biker lists. Both match up nicely with the mentality of the jets speed and they dont really have to worry about their FA slot being used up on jets.
48698
Post by: Eiluj The Farseer
Yeah I don't think they will match up well with a foot / khan wall, but may try it out and will post to let you know how it worked, however I think they are more suited for a BW list with BM and KFF so they can move and shoot and still get cover save.
Think I will use the Dakka Jet mostly, but just picked up an old FW Ork /Bomma so will try the fighta-bomba too, but don't think I will run that much.
37335
Post by: DakkaHammer
Jidmah wrote:Nothing prevents you from flying sideways though. You also don't need to fly over the unit, you stop 1" from the unit and drop the bomb, then you can continue to move wherever you want, as long as you are not going flat-out.
Yeah, you could fly sideways, but it's still a fairly large base.
It's the Blitza-bommer where you stop an inch away, and when you drop the bomb you stop, you can only move again in your next turn. The burna-bommer though you have to do the same thing as a deffkopta and drop the bomb on a model you moved over.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Zogash wrote:
Doesn't work that way, unfortunately... To get the 4+ save, you have to go 'Flat Out' (not Combat Speed). RP may let you move more than 12", but for you still count (!) as moving with Combat Speed (-> not 'Flat Out'), thus no save. At least that's how I read it...
Actually, I just called GW on this, because I wouldn't dare take any form of unsavable av10.
According to the customer support, the way the RPJ rule is written, if you don't go any more than 13" (but more than 12"), you get to fire all gunz AND you'll get the save!
37335
Post by: DakkaHammer
WHAT! Awesome!
Now to convince everyone else of this...
Edit: Wait, what did they say about it exactly?
54112
Post by: Dr. What
"Wow, the way the red paint rule is written, it looks like you get to fire and get the save, as long as you don't go over 13"."
37335
Post by: DakkaHammer
Interesting, thanks.
I wonder what the replies to this are going to look like.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Now I just need to tweak my list to get that RPJ in there...
39296
Post by: gpfunk
Dr. What wrote:"Wow, the way the red paint rule is written, it looks like you get to fire and get the save, as long as you don't go over 13"."
Quick, quote this for truth and send this over to YMDC!
43836
Post by: Bacms
gpfunk wrote:Dr. What wrote:"Wow, the way the red paint rule is written, it looks like you get to fire and get the save, as long as you don't go over 13"."
Quick, quote this for truth and send this over to YMDC!
This as actually been discussed several times on the YMDC. Red Paint job says that the ork player does not incur in any penalty. For these reason people claim you can move 7'' count as moving six but the other player will be hitting you on sixes on the assault because for him you moved more than 6''. So if the same applies to the planes then you would count as moving more than 12'' so flat out and you get the cover
465
Post by: Redbeard
So much for Bad Moon and Goff jets :(
36809
Post by: loota boy
Redbeard wrote:So much for Bad Moon and Goff jets :(
And deff skulls, blood axes and maybe snakebites...
37335
Post by: DakkaHammer
loota boy wrote:Redbeard wrote:So much for Bad Moon and Goff jets :(
And deff skulls, blood axes and maybe snakebites...
Nah, deathskulls planes could be painted red under the blue.
36809
Post by: loota boy
DakkaHammer wrote:loota boy wrote:Redbeard wrote:So much for Bad Moon and Goff jets :(
And deff skulls, blood axes and maybe snakebites...
Nah, deathskulls planes could be painted red under the blue.
Heh. Thanks for going after an old deff skull's heart. That made me smile.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
No offense guys, but I wont believe this whole "if we move 13", we can shoot AND get the 4+ save!" Thing until I see it in a FAQ.
reason being is that the rule says, quote:
Red paint Job: "Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" and still count as moving 12." pg. 93 ork codex
You still count for all intensive purposes as moving 12 inches. It's just you got to move an extra inch instead. You would still count as cruising, even though you went 13. By "no penalties" they seem to imply that moving 13" still lets you fire you fire your weapons, disembark, etc.
And also, no offense to the dude who called customer support, but do you have any proof? For all we know, you could be lying and just be hoping we accept it as fact.
36809
Post by: loota boy
MrMoustaffa wrote:No offense guys, but I wont believe this whole "if we move 13", we can shoot AND get the 4+ save!" Thing until I see it in a FAQ.
reason being is that the rule says, quote:
Red paint Job: "Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" and still count as moving 12." pg. 93 ork codex
You still count for all intensive purposes as moving 12 inches. It's just you got to move an extra inch instead. You would still count as cruising, even though you went 13. By "no penalties" they seem to imply that moving 13" still lets you fire you fire your weapons, disembark, etc.
And also, no offense to the dude who called customer support, but do you have any proof? For all we know, you could be lying and just be hoping we accept it as fact.
I really think we should just not get into this. Every time this debate comes up, it devoures the entire thread. This has been done to death on YMDC, and every single time, no-one is convinced of anything. Lets just not do this.
41528
Post by: mikewars85
I was thinking about this list and I love avaition, so ya needless to say I will have a few of these planes here shortly for my list.
See I don't know, should I run them with one group of bikers and have two planes or two groups of bikers and one plane.
I have a feeling that my ork list will never be complete. But at least this saves me the money of converting a looted SR to serve as the IA model.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
yeah sorry I just couldnt help it. Really wish GW would just FAQ it already and get it over with. This rule confuses everyone I know and causes flamewars constantly. Only reason I called the guy out was because he essentially said "hey guys, GW says it works this way!" and yet we can never find proof one way or the other...
Has there ever been a verdict on it? Heck I'll even take a faq from a tourney or something, anything just to clear it up a bit.
41528
Post by: mikewars85
@MrMoustaffa you play Cities of Death? that could be one way of keeping your flyers alive.
and I thought osmeone might have said this prior but using them just as a distracter so other troops can move without being touch might be a good use for this but for what the 200 points? that might be a little high for a sacrificial lamb.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
MrMoustaffa wrote:No offense guys, but I wont believe this whole "if we move 13", we can shoot AND get the 4+ save!" Thing until I see it in a FAQ.
reason being is that the rule says, quote:
Red paint Job: "Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" and still count as moving 12." pg. 93 ork codex
You still count for all intensive purposes as moving 12 inches. It's just you got to move an extra inch instead. You would still count as cruising, even though you went 13. By "no penalties" they seem to imply that moving 13" still lets you fire you fire your weapons, disembark, etc.
And also, no offense to the dude who called customer support, but do you have any proof? For all we know, you could be lying and just be hoping we accept it as fact.
Understandable. Why don't you call them tomorrow when they open back up?
Also, Here is the definition of the RPJ from the WD Update:
"Ork Vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in the Movement phase, but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13" [thus gaining the save] and still count as moving 12" [thus allowing the shots to be made]."
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Just curious, I assume the brackets are where you're pointing out your logic right? Just making sure, because otherwise thats the same entry as the codex. I see where you're coming from as well, I'm just wondering if thats what was intended. For a 5pts, it seems like an insanely useful upgrade. Hence skepticism
Either way, I imagine GW will have to make some comment on it, otherwise there will be people raging over ork fighters moving 13" during a WAAAAAGH so they can fire 18 shot and still get a cover save .
Also, at mikewars, a fully kitted out dakkajet ( rpj, extra supa shoota, and ace) comes in at 135pts if i remember correctly, so it wouldnt be too bad. Thats about what you pay for 3 deffkoptas.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Yes, brackets in a quote are for additional words that aren't in the original quote.
41528
Post by: mikewars85
ahhh three deff kotpas or one dakka jet... idk.. i'd have to say jet.
what does supersonic entail?
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
You can Flat Out up to 36"
54112
Post by: Dr. What
mikewars85 wrote:ahhh three deff kotpas or one dakka jet... idk.. i'd have to say jet.
what does supersonic entail?
I took both. That way there are many close threats while the others get a chance to get close.
You can go 36" at flat out speed.
41528
Post by: mikewars85
that's impressive. you can get up right up to some transports (if you go second)
Sadly I doubt anyone will let a jet last more then the first turn.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
mikewars85 wrote:that's impressive. you can get up right up to some transports (if you go second)
Sadly I doubt anyone will let a jet last more then the first turn.
Haha. That's what my Tau playing friend said. "That thing is going down first!" Of course, he's notorious for being out of favor with the dice gods (and the rest bounce off my KFFs).
I think I'll start it near a battlewagon with a KFF Mek in it. That ought to solve the problem.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
DakkaHammer wrote:loota boy wrote:Redbeard wrote:So much for Bad Moon and Goff jets :(
And deff skulls, blood axes and maybe snakebites...
Nah, deathskulls planes could be painted red under the blue.
Most of my battlewagons and my trukks are painted in red camouflage (and each one in a different style). Nothing is stopping bloodaxes from bombing stuff Automatically Appended Next Post: MrMoustaffa wrote:Just curious, I assume the brackets are where you're pointing out your logic right? Just making sure, because otherwise thats the same entry as the codex. I see where you're coming from as well, I'm just wondering if thats what was intended. For a 5pts, it seems like an insanely useful upgrade. Hence skepticism Either way, I imagine GW will have to make some comment on it, otherwise there will be people raging over ork fighters moving 13" during a WAAAAAGH so they can fire 18 shot and still get a cover save . Also, at mikewars, a fully kitted out dakkajet ( rpj, extra supa shoota, and ace) comes in at 135pts if i remember correctly, so it wouldnt be too bad. Thats about what you pay for 3 deffkoptas.
I know YMDC looks like a minefield to many people, but if you really doubt how it works, maybe check the thread about dakka jets there? I'd hate to have a perfectly fine tactics thread turning into a redundant argument we are already having at a different place.
34390
Post by: whembly
^^ I agree Jidmah...
Here's my idea for using DakkaJets...
This would be all bikerz 2000 pts on the nose:
Wazzie
Boss on bike, PK, BP
1x unit of 5 Kommandos, plus Snikrot and 2 burnas
1x unit of 6 Nob Bikers, 2x PK, 3x BC, 2x BP, banner, 1x doc, cybork'ed
4x units of 4 Warbiker plus 1 Nob with PK/BP
1x unit of 3 DeffKopts: 1 with BS/Rokkit, 1 with Rokkit, 1 with KMB
2x units of DakkaJets with RPJ, xtra supra gunz, and upgraded to Ace (BS3)
This might be better, but may not be enough shooty (they're orks, do we really care?):
Boss on bike, PK, BP, Attack squig
1x unit of 5 Kommandos, plus Snikrot and 2 burnas
1x unit of 6 Nob Bikers, 2x PK, 3x BC, 2x BP, banner, 1x doc, cybork'ed
5x units of 11 Slugg/Choppas plus 1 Nob with PK/BP in TRUKK with ram
1x unit of 4 DeffKopts: 1 with BS/Rokkit, 1 with Rokkit, 1 with BS/KMB, 1 with KMB
2x units of DakkaJets with RPJ, xtra supra gunz, and upgraded to Ace (BS3)
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
I'm thinking the green tide works well with it.
Should your missiles take out the Jet or the loads of Orks hurtling towards you?
With a Weirdboy you might teleport in Zzzap something and so on, and the Waaagh for more dakka!
465
Post by: Redbeard
InquisitorVaron wrote:I'm thinking the green tide works well with it.
Should your missiles take out the Jet or the loads of Orks hurtling towards you?
With a Weirdboy you might teleport in Zzzap something and so on, and the Waaagh for more dakka!
This shows a lack of understanding of the green tide. The green tide works by denying your opponent any good targets to use their anti-tank guns on, while maximizing the number of boyz you field. Spending 120 points on an airplane is 20 boyz you're not fielding, and gives your opponent something valuable to shoot their lascannons at.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
The idea might work if you replace "green tide" with "kan wall" though
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
So it's 125P for the ideal Dakkajet.
Move 13" a turn get the 4+ SV rain 9 shots down with 18 on a waaagh!
Not bad, at least it gets people using the fast attack for orks, but it's around 8 Lootas worth which pump out more shots with a further range and higher strength. Less BS skill and non TL though, and less reliable with 8-24 shots.
The dakkajet is a faster (So same effective range) more reliable small mob of lootas?
465
Post by: Redbeard
InquisitorVaron wrote:The dakkajet is a faster (So same effective range) more reliable small mob of lootas?
Not entirely. The difference between S7 and S6 is significant, especially versus Grey Knights (you need to pen those dreads) and mech guard (who spam an AV12 wall). Also, while their shooting range is about the same, their safe range is not. Lootas can hang out 48" away and avoid a lot of shots. Getting 12" closer makes you a target for more guns. And all it takes is one shaken result to suppress the plane.
43836
Post by: Bacms
Redbeard wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:The dakkajet is a faster (So same effective range) more reliable small mob of lootas?
Not entirely. The difference between S7 and S6 is significant, especially versus Grey Knights (you need to pen those dreads) and mech guard (who spam an AV12 wall). Also, while their shooting range is about the same, their safe range is not. Lootas can hang out 48" away and avoid a lot of shots. Getting 12" closer makes you a target for more guns. And all it takes is one shaken result to suppress the plane.
Yes but with their mobility you can shoot them on their AV10 on their back. Which is not possible with the lootas. Loots also have the problem of morale in low numbers. So I think that both have strong and weaker points and it is not such an easy choice.
465
Post by: Redbeard
Bacms wrote:Yes but with their mobility you can shoot them on their AV10 on their back.
Really? It's a nice theory, but try that in a game and let me know how it works out for you. Against a competent opponent, not the 12-year-old at the gamestore.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Maybe not against Dreadnoughts, but against IG or any other mech spam army its not going to be hard for the jet to get rear shots on something. especially without said vehicles being exposed to your lootas at the same time(you will be taking both right?)
36809
Post by: loota boy
Redbeard wrote:Bacms wrote:Yes but with their mobility you can shoot them on their AV10 on their back.
Really? It's a nice theory, but try that in a game and let me know how it works out for you. Against a competent opponent, not the 12-year-old at the gamestore.
Well, doesn't the dakka jet count as always hitting on side armor? So mech gaurd doesn't seem that tough, sence you're just getting to shoot AV 10.
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Post by: Gork and Mork
Why does the dakkajet always hit on the side armour? Is it a rule or are you commenting on its mobility? Thanks.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
It has no such rule. But its mobility is definitly giving it an advantage.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Redbeard, the two most common (In my eyes) ways of playing with these would be to reserve or to turbo-boost on the first turn.
A unlucky reserve would stop you from hitting the back armour since you would be coming from your spawn, on either side of the table though it's not too difficult to get the rear AV.
Likewise with turbo-boosting (Unless we're talking big games big boards) Your moving 36-37" then 12-13" after that, so 48-50". Once again easy back armour, if they survive that is.
40509
Post by: G00fySmiley
I'm torn I feel vehicle squad rules make rokkit buggies more survivable esp if you use terrain to limit what can fire at htem / to gain cover from units. and 3 tl rokkitsat str 8 ap3 makes for some good anti meq and anti vehicle...
but the mass str 6 shots is nothing to snear at either can do more damage vs non meq armies and can still chip away at vehicles... shooting a razerback with 9 str 6 shots should do somehting , at least prevent it from being able to fire the next turn and hopefullt clance it to death with weapon destroyed results if not outright
the realt advantage though for rokkit buggies imo would be necrons, str 6 isn't going to be able to do anythign vs quantum shielding. then again I think i;m ogign to experiment with just 1 dakka jet. i'll probably get 2-3 cause i like the models and magnetize them for loadouts. the burna-bommer looks cool assumign you cna buy all 6 scorcha missiles and use them in the same fire all 6 in the same turn which if I am reading it right would work.. missiles cna go at a different target and just unload it all turn 1
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Post by: Redbeard
InquisitorVaron wrote:Redbeard, the two most common (In my eyes) ways of playing with these would be to reserve or to turbo-boost on the first turn.
I'm not sure I agree.
Let's say you want to go the reserves route. The main competition is going to be a reserved unit of deffkoptas, or snikrot, both of which can mess with alternate table edges. Dakkajets don't appear to outflank, so while you might be able to get sideshots coming in at the very edges, I'm not sure it's the best of strategies, considering the alternatives.
On the other hand, turbo-boosting on the first turn might let you live to see a waaagh turn, but I wouldn't count on it. You're only AV10, and a 4+ cover save only goes so far (when I'm rolling, it doesn't even go that far). Against the enemy units showing up in competitive games, though, namely psyfledreads and hydras, I think you're still toast, and didn't even shoot on the first turn. The hydra ignores your fast-moving save, and the psyfledread is likely to make you roll at least 3 saves.
36809
Post by: loota boy
Grey Templar wrote:It has no such rule. But its mobility is definitly giving it an advantage.
Ah, sorry, I think i'm cinfused with another rule. Would Apoc. Fliers happen to have that rule?
All the same, I think side shots should be a walk in the park for these guys.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Redbeard, that may be the case against two select armies. There's more armies out there and lists for that matter.
Secondly, you can still hit the front armour, it's not the end of the world.
On your normal turn you'd get 1.125 Pens, and 2.25 Pens on a Waagh turn.
Considering 1/3 Pens will Wreck or Explode and 1/2 will do serious damage (Wreck, explode, immoblise if a transport or weapon destroy if a shooting tank) then it's safe to say those two hits on the waaagh turn will do just fine, and this isn't including the Glances and it's on AV11.
On AV12 you just substitute the pens for glances and it still should result in some good damage.
My point being, on AV10 it will be certain to kill (In mathhammer) yet it still can hurt front and side AV.
With it's effective range of 43" it can dart in from quite a distance and do it's stuff, I think it's tougher than people might expect.
With multiples you can always shield the others out of LOS, considering they're the same model. With clever placement anyway.
So I was thinking whether or not to run just a basic dakka jet to cover my RPJ extra Supa Shoota ones.
Or to stick with the reserve or turbo boost tactic.
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Post by: FenWulf29
Yeah, i got the model and its a pleasure to build. In my opinion its one of the units you get because the models are good and less so because the unit is good.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
InquisitorVaron wrote:Secondly, you can still hit the front armour, it's not the end of the world.
On your normal turn you'd get 1.125 Pens, and 2.25 Pens on a Waagh turn.
Considering 1/3 Pens will Wreck or Explode and 1/2 will do serious damage (Wreck, explode, immoblise if a transport or weapon destroy if a shooting tank) then it's safe to say those two hits on the waaagh turn will do just fine, and this isn't including the Glances and it's on AV11.
Now I remember why I spend so little time in the Tactics Forum. Man, I hate Mathhammer.
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Post by: Redbeard
InquisitorVaron wrote:Redbeard, that may be the case against two select armies. There's more armies out there and lists for that matter.
If you're playing for fun, sure. If you're playing in a competitive environment, then if you don't have an answer for GK and IG, you're going to lose, and dakkajets, unfortunately, don't seem to have a place in a competitive ork army.
That's not saying they suck. I'm sure in friendly games, they'll be loads of fun to fly around for a turn or two before getting shot down in flames.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Anung Un Rama wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:Secondly, you can still hit the front armour, it's not the end of the world.
On your normal turn you'd get 1.125 Pens, and 2.25 Pens on a Waagh turn.
Considering 1/3 Pens will Wreck or Explode and 1/2 will do serious damage (Wreck, explode, immoblise if a transport or weapon destroy if a shooting tank) then it's safe to say those two hits on the waaagh turn will do just fine, and this isn't including the Glances and it's on AV11.
Now I remember why I spend so little time in the Tactics Forum. Man, I hate Mathhammer.
Thanks for that
Nothing personal I hope.
Redbeard wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:Redbeard, that may be the case against two select armies. There's more armies out there and lists for that matter.
If you're playing for fun, sure. If you're playing in a competitive environment, then if you don't have an answer for GK and IG, you're going to lose, and dakkajets, unfortunately, don't seem to have a place in a competitive ork army.
That's not saying they suck. I'm sure in friendly games, they'll be loads of fun to fly around for a turn or two before getting shot down in flames.
Not sure about that, against one army they're highly competitive. Necrons for the reasons I mentioned before, they will get their point back and more.
Now GK, their save pretty much negates any chance of gaining their points back in one turn, unless we're talking about their Dreadnaughts, where getting a rear armour shot would gain their points back, but any competent player probably wouldn't allow that. Side armour would be more realistic but you'd have to be lucky as it's the same as the front armour 
There's 11.25 Wounds on a Waaagh! not including saves. with MEQ saves that's 3.75 which would be 75P worth, 50P off your jet.
Against terminators it's 1.875 Wounds which is also 75P worth.
That's at base cost if they've got upgrade it's more, and would be wiser to shoot at the MEQs.
Against the Dreadnight your getting 1.125 Wounds. Which is far less points.
Purifiers are a better bet, most cost 26P considering they upgrade with force halberds and that's 97.5P worth. Still not enough.
Castellan Crowe's a good target, since 1.875 wounds would be caused. That's 140.625P more than your dakkajet, and he's often a feature. So shooting him makes the dakkajet competetive.
But he's only one and a minor thing considering he does almost no damage except if he gets into combat. So I will keep searching.
The Eversor has been used before as has the callidus. The only real difference is points and stealth. I will be using the 4+ Inv.
11.25 Wounds then 4.6875 Wounds after Synskin and the Inv save. Killing both.
Another viable target 130-145P. More than the dakkajet, and they both cause massive damage.
Assuming I get the rear armour on a Autocannon dreadnaught if I'm lucky
Your basic dread is 130P more than the jet.
You will get 4.5 Pens which is enough to get some serious results. So a viable target. Now more likely assuming I hit the front armour.
I get 2.25 Glances which is a 0.375 chance of destroying it. Which equates to 48.75P, not enough.
If for arguements sake you say that weapons destroyed is as good as the wrecked result (It's not)
That's 0.75 chance of doing the damage. That's 97.5P not enough.
So not worth firing upon unless it's rear armour.
Stormraven gun ship, I will assume the immobile result is as bad as the wrecked considering it's always moving fast enough.
If it's a 4+ to hit and 4+ SV for the flat out it's 6.75 hits. 1.125 Glances. 0.375 results that could damage. That's 75P, not good enough again.
Guard are easier, I'm not going to do all of the maths for them but that amount of shots on a command squad or on AV10 needing a 4+ to hit it's going to kill it, and since I don't have the codex I can't do it as accurate. So I won't
But I know that with Guard you will get the points back if they survive, so reserve
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Stormravens, and all skimmers, only wreck on an immobilized result if they are immobilized on the player turn in which they move flat out in.
So with shooting there is no way to wreck a skimmer by immobilizing it no matter how far it moved.
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Post by: marauder6272
Nope, skimmers are wrecked on an immobilised result if they moved flat-out in their previous turn (BRB pg 71, Shooting at Skimmers)
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Anyway, I think i've just proved they have their uses, and can be devestating.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
As for all the rear-armor shooting discussion: What prevents the GK player from simply have their dreads with the back against the table edge?
Everyone I am playing is hugging the table edge with their leman russes/fire prisms/riflemen or anything else that has decent range and bad rear armor.
The size of the dakka jet means you don't get too close to the edge anyways, so they even have some wiggling space.
Against GK their prime role should be destroying razorbacks, rhinos and maybe shooting some henchmen or MEQ dead (2 kills isn't awesome against tac marines, but it is against purifiers - the bane of orks). You might even get some deathstar unit which isn't fearless to fail a pinning test. I think that would work quite well for a battlewagon bash. In kan wall I would prefer blitza bommers though. If the dread is shooting the bomma, it is not shooting kanz, and the bommer will get a penetrating hit on the dread most of the time. Neither army should replace lootaz with dakka jets though.
Against IG I see much less of a problem. Glancing a manticore turn one (which should be no problem at all) can really tip the scales in your favor. Assuming three dakka jets you can almost count on shaking two of them, and if you have one left, that one can try to stop a chimera, or start dissolving a potential bubble wrap. They might even last longer than lootaz, because your opponent can't simply shell them with artillery once and hope to decimate them. Anything with a little more power isn't shooting kanz or battlewagons, so that's not so bad either.
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Post by: Luide
Grey Templar wrote:Stormravens, and all skimmers, only wreck on an immobilized result if they are immobilized on the player turn in which they move flat out in.
So with shooting there is no way to wreck a skimmer by immobilizing it no matter how far it moved.
Wrong, just as Marauder6272 said.
You're thinking of the "If the transport is wrecked/destroyed in same player turn as the transport moved flat out, embarked unit is automatically destroyed" rule.
2050
Post by: Anung Un Rama
InquisitorVaron wrote:Anung Un Rama wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:Secondly, you can still hit the front armour, it's not the end of the world.
On your normal turn you'd get 1.125 Pens, and 2.25 Pens on a Waagh turn.
Considering 1/3 Pens will Wreck or Explode and 1/2 will do serious damage (Wreck, explode, immoblise if a transport or weapon destroy if a shooting tank) then it's safe to say those two hits on the waaagh turn will do just fine, and this isn't including the Glances and it's on AV11.
Now I remember why I spend so little time in the Tactics Forum. Man, I hate Mathhammer.
Thanks for that
Nothing personal I hope.
Sorry, no offense meant. It's not that I have anything against thinking and talking about what option is a good choice in which situation, but where's the fun if you have to use a calculator?
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
I don't that's my brain
I think Dakkajets are stronger than lootas, your average amount of shots from 8 Lootas equal to the points of the jet is 16 Shots. 2 Less than the jet on a waaagh turn.
They may be 1 Str higher but they're BS2.
So the amount of hits from the Lootas on average would be 5.3, the Dakkajet on the otherhand hits with 13.5 on a Waaagh turn and on a normal turn 6.75.
It's getting more shots out than Lootas for it's points.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Which, without doing the math (should be in this thread anyways), results in lootaz being better against vehicles and dakka jets being better against stuff taking armor saves.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
I wouldn't say that without doing the maths
Which I will do because your a lazy git. (Ork speaking)
Assuming a 4+ to hit.
On AV10
Lootas are getting 8 hits, and the Dakkajet 13.5
Lootas are getting 4 pens, and the Jet 4.5 Pens.
AV11
Lootas will get 2.6* Pens, the Dakkajet has 2.25 pens.
And so on the lootas will win, so I would conclude that Lootas are only better against AV11+
465
Post by: Redbeard
But, again, I worry about how easy it is to neutralize an AV10 jet, especially in the current meta, where everyone is packing anti-vehicle guns because of all the rhinos and razors.
You cannot hide thing thing. It flies over all the terrain, and will rarely get a natural cover save. Maybe you can have it hang with a mek, but that's limiting its mobility. If you're shooting, you're vulnerable. Lootas may have low Ld, but they're still infantry, so your opponent has to contend with cover, you can cut off certain lines of sight to them, and one shot will rarely take out the entire group's shooting.
And that +1S is huge because it means you can pen AV12, very important against guard, and it means that you can at least suppress AV13, which seems like it will be an important requirement in the necron matchup.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
As, I've stated before in a Necron matchup you use the Dakkajet on troops and the Boyz on Vehicles. Well the nob with PK anyway.
I will agree that's fragile, just wanted to defend it from the whole "Lootas are better firepower" arguement.
I will now mathhammer the amount of Bolters require for a hit that counts, (I won't be assuming the flat out rule since you'll be going 12-13" every turn)
54 Bolters are required to do the damage including the RPJ save. That's 27 Marines in RF range costing 405P, so for the people saying oh you can fire it down with bolters, you may be possible to, but they should be worrying about the boyz, I'd prefer them to shoot the dakkajet instead of the boyz.
And since I wouldn't get into RF range it would be 54 Marines at 810P, not the best move eh?
So now with Redbeards SW long fang spam example.
18 Missile launchers, costing far above your Dakkajet, that's for a sure fire kill.
It's tougher than you might think. I mean all it "might" take is one missile.
Now for fun lets compare that against Lootas in their best circumstances in 3+ cover.
First the 54 Bolter rounds.
36 hit 18 Wound and 6 die, which leaves two lootas who are nigh on ineffectual and probably will run away.
Now with 18 Blast markers assuming they each cover two.
Which means 6 die, about the same amount.
Your choice at the end of the day but I feel that the dakkajet is just more fun reliable and better against certain things.
Lootas still hold the AV13-AV11 crown though, in range anyway.
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Post by: Redbeard
InquisitorVaron wrote:As, I've stated before in a Necron matchup you use the Dakkajet on troops and the Boyz on Vehicles. Well the nob with PK anyway.
From the necron games I've played, and the battle reports I've seen, I'm not sure you'd have an opportunity to use it on troops until their AV13 transports are dead. It is a good scarab killer...
I will agree that's fragile, just wanted to defend it from the whole "Lootas are better firepower" arguement.
Lootas are better firepower, in that they'll fire for more turns in the game. So far, suggestions for using a dakkajet in a competitive game have ranged from reserving it (ensuring it gets to fire once, but maybe not until turn 4/5), turboing it on the first turn and hoping, or hovering it around a mek (and hoping). None of these seem ideal to me. Even if you guarantee getting 1st turn, I'd expect it to be dead, or at least suppressed, on the turn you need to call a waagh, and I can't think of too many situations where you'd want to blow your waaagh just to get those shots.
I will now mathhammer the amount of Bolters require for a hit that counts, (I won't be assuming the flat out rule since you'll be going 12-13" every turn)
While mathhammer has its place, this isn't it. You're putting far too much weight on numbers and not enough on actual potential uses. No one is going to fire bolters at this unless they're bolter shots that come with a tac squad firing a missile at it, or stormbolter shots that come with the psycannon shots.
54 Bolters are required to do the damage including the RPJ save.
First you said you weren't assuming flat out, so what RPJ save? And, all it takes is one glancing hit to suppress. You expect one glance from six hits, and six hits is only nine marines firing at max-range, IF the rocket misses.
So now with Redbeards SW long fang spam example.
18 Missile launchers, costing far above your Dakkajet, that's for a sure fire kill.
Again, any competitive player isn't going for the kill, they're just going to put the minimum fire on it to suppress it for a turn if it doesn't die. If I were running the longfangs, I'd put either 2-3 missiles on the jet, and the other 2-3 from one squad (that costs roughly the same as the jet) either on a second jet, or on something else. Two rockets at BS4 have a pretty good chance of at least shaking the jet, and that's all that's needed to render it inconsequential.
Now for fun lets compare that against Lootas in their best circumstances in 3+ cover.
First the 54 Bolter rounds.
36 hit 18 Wound and 6 die, which leaves two lootas who are nigh on ineffectual and probably will run away.
Again, your mathhammer is horribly misplaced. Seriously, what ork player is going to let three tac squads get within RF range of their lootas? If 30 marines somehow survived to get that close to the lootas, you've already lost the game. It doesn't matter anymore.
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Post by: skkipper
I have ordered three of the bommers. I have a fun event in august. it will be my last games of 5th. I just need to figure out how to field them. My list will contain a warpheard and some battle wagons. the jets are cool looking and fun. the question is to go with three dakkajets or one of each?
26790
Post by: Gitsplitta
I really detest the fact that I have to paint my vehicles red in order to gain "advantages" as an ork. Defeats the whole idea of having a "themed" clan army. For the record I don't paint my stuff red... but if this movement thing pans out... it would be giving up a huge advantage!
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Just give them red racing stripes.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
You don't have to paint them red, just give them some whot not or bit that represents it well
4 Missiles wouldn't supress the Dakkajet.
I'm not getting into the whole RPJ save discussion but when you move 13" you get the Flat out save but none of the negatives.
4 Missiles wouldn't supress it, and I think your just trying to make it sound worse than the lootas
Has somebody invested a lot of money in 45 Lootas?
26790
Post by: Gitsplitta
I've thought of that, but most folks I've talked about it with claim the dominant color on the vehicle needs to be red, which puts me off.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Have them show you the rules where it says that. If they can't proove that the vehicle MUST be mostly red thent hey are wrong.
36809
Post by: loota boy
Yeah, and it's not like you gain any advantages for having less red on the vehicle... Whoever is saying that is being ridiculous.
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Post by: Redbeard
InquisitorVaron wrote:
I'm not getting into the whole RPJ save discussion but when you move 13" you get the Flat out save but none of the negatives.
Apparently, you are getting into it. I don't believe it works that way, and until I see a GW FAQ that says so, I'm not going to force my opponents to play that way.
4 Missiles wouldn't supress the Dakkajet.
4 Missiles wouldn't supress it, and I think your just trying to make it sound worse than the lootas
Do you know what suppress means?
Has somebody invested a lot of money in 45 Lootas?
This has nothing to do with what I've invested in. For the record, yes, I've got 45 lootas. I've also got three of these new jets, and a whole lot of other orks besides. The jets will be a lot of fun. But just because they make a model doesn't mean it has a place in a tournament list. I've got a whole lot of orks that I play with for fun, but wouldn't take to a tournament. If you're going to enter a battle against all comers where you know 25% of the field will be Grey Knights and another 25% will be either IG or SW, it simply doesn't make a lot of sense to tie up a lot of points in AV10 vehicles.
26790
Post by: Gitsplitta
I just assumed it was some kind of "understood standard", but I'm glad to hear it's not. I actually had some cool ideas of how to get a decent amount of red on vehicles without actually having to make them red throughout. Good to there's room for argument on this point.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
There was a suggestion made not too long ago that you could say "My orks are Bad Moons and they think that yellow goes fasta!", insert appropriate Clan and color for your army.
26790
Post by: Gitsplitta
Ah yes... the oft-used "Yellow Ones go Fasta" rule! Because you know... banana peals are slick & slippery... like our vehicles.
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Post by: skkipper
put a red button on the dashboard. Red one makes it go fast.
36809
Post by: loota boy
Well, my orks are deffskulls, so I can just say that they are painted red underneath the blue.
Whoever it was that said that to me, thank you for the best excuse ever.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Redbeard wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:
I'm not getting into the whole RPJ save discussion but when you move 13" you get the Flat out save but none of the negatives.
Apparently, you are getting into it. I don't believe it works that way, and until I see a GW FAQ that says so, I'm not going to force my opponents to play that way.
4 Missiles wouldn't supress the Dakkajet.
4 Missiles wouldn't supress it, and I think your just trying to make it sound worse than the lootas
Do you know what suppress means?
I find that little quip rather insulting, it's not even like you've taken any time at all to check out your claim.
But I will do that for you.
4 Missile shots assuming a 4+ to hit that's 2 Hits, 1.3 Pens and the 4+ SV makes that 0.6*
That's not above one so your claim of 4 is bust, you'd need 8 to get onto the the damage table.
But I am missing out glances but even so with two it's not likely your getting onto the damage table.
Unless we're playing how you think it is with RPJ, even though the guys over at YMDC pretty much all concur with me.
But we shall leave that at YMDC so don't quote it
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Post by: Redbeard
InquisitorVaron wrote:Do you know what suppress means?
I find that little quip rather insulting, it's not even like you've taken any time at all to check out your claim.
But I will do that for you.
Apparently, I have, and more correctly than you.
4 Missile shots assuming a 4+ to hit that's 2 Hits, 1.3 Pens and the 4+ SV makes that 0.6*
First of all, missiles hit on 3+ when fired by Long Fangs, which was what we had been talking about. Secondly, the poster I was responding to stated that he wasn't including the magical RPJ save, and my response also assumed that.
So, revisiting this, two missiles would yield an expected 1.33 hits, and needing a 2+ to glance (or better), yields an expected 1.1 rolls on a damage table, more than enough to suppress the vehicle. So, yes, two Marine missiles can reasonably be expected to suppress a dakkajet if you don't include the 4+ cover, and four missiles will do the same if you do.
Unless we're playing how you think it is with RPJ, even though the guys over at YMDC pretty much all concur with me.
But we shall leave that at YMDC so don't quote it
Them over there at YMDC have been overruled by GW FAQs in the past. In my experience, until there is an FAQ, the good sportsmanship approach is to assume that what is best for your opponent is the way it is. In this case, I would not feel right taking that 4+ save until GW clarified that I was allowed to.
34390
Post by: whembly
skkipper wrote:put a red button on the dashboard. Red one makes it go fast.
I gave my "pilot" a red-sunglasses... lol... 'cuz, seeing RED makes him go fasta! Automatically Appended Next Post: Redbeard wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:Do you know what suppress means?
Unless we're playing how you think it is with RPJ, even though the guys over at YMDC pretty much all concur with me.
But we shall leave that at YMDC so don't quote it
Them over there at YMDC have been overruled by GW FAQs in the past. In my experience, until there is an FAQ, the good sportsmanship approach is to assume that what is best for your opponent is the way it is. In this case, I would not feel right taking that 4+ save until GW clarified that I was allowed to.
I've seen it both ways at tournaments... this is one of those cases that I'd clear it with the TO and your player (like the Deffrolla, DS, hexrifle debates). Once that's confirm, you'd adjust your tactic accordingly.
Anyhoo... I really think they're a great addition to a Kult of Speed list since the point of those armies is to deliver the massed boyz (or bikerz) to the enemy. If your opponent is taking pot shots at the DakkaJets in turn 1 or 2... the boyz are onto them. (which is the point!) If they tried to out smart you by trying to take out da boyz... well... the dakkajets can bring the lead storm....
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Redbeard wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:Do you know what suppress means?
I find that little quip rather insulting, it's not even like you've taken any time at all to check out your claim.
But I will do that for you.
Apparently, I have, and more correctly than you.
4 Missile shots assuming a 4+ to hit that's 2 Hits, 1.3 Pens and the 4+ SV makes that 0.6*
First of all, missiles hit on 3+ when fired by Long Fangs, which was what we had been talking about. Secondly, the poster I was responding to stated that he wasn't including the magical RPJ save, and my response also assumed that.
So, revisiting this, two missiles would yield an expected 1.33 hits, and needing a 2+ to glance (or better), yields an expected 1.1 rolls on a damage table, more than enough to suppress the vehicle. So, yes, two Marine missiles can reasonably be expected to suppress a dakkajet if you don't include the 4+ cover, and four missiles will do the same if you do.
Unless we're playing how you think it is with RPJ, even though the guys over at YMDC pretty much all concur with me.
But we shall leave that at YMDC so don't quote it
Them over there at YMDC have been overruled by GW FAQs in the past. In my experience, until there is an FAQ, the good sportsmanship approach is to assume that what is best for your opponent is the way it is. In this case, I would not feel right taking that 4+ save until GW clarified that I was allowed to.
I stand corrected I didn't understand the long fang hits on a 3+ rule for vehicle. Since I don't have the codex and their frowned upon at my FLGS I don't see many.
You appear to have missunderstood me or I didn't make it clear enough. I was stating that I get the 4+ RPJ save, but I'm not counting as moving flat out, because that would make immobile results count as wrecked.
So doing the math hammer with the updated hitting, 2.6* hits so 1.71 Pens then with the SV that's 0.85, still not enough. So once again 4 doesn't supress them.
It may be "sporting" but the only qualm with the rule is the example to build upon the rule, it has no reflection upon the rule as it's an example.
Therefor the rule isn't a issue. The example is, it wasn't clear enough.
I broke my own rule though, anyway we shall see if anyone runs it in a tournament.
How it plays in the next WD also, it may be advertisement but you get a good jist.
I will also see how it plays when I play a game soon with them.
465
Post by: Redbeard
InquisitorVaron wrote:
So doing the math hammer with the updated hitting, 2.6* hits so 1.71 Pens then with the SV that's 0.85, still not enough.
You feel insulted when I suggest you don't know what suppressed means, but then you keep insisting on calculating whether a pen gets through. You don't need to pen a vehicle to suppress it. All I need to do is shake or stun a dakkajet and it's not a threat for the next turn. I can then move on to other targets. That's suppression. If I do more than shake it, good for me. If I blow it up, great. But if I shake it, it's not shooting, and that's good enough.
What's even worse, from a strategic point of view, let's say I shake you on turn three. You could declare a waaagh on turn three to maybe make a charge you might not. Now, you need to decide, use the waagh for the assault, or save it to hopefully get double shots with your plane the next turn.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
I wouldn't ever risk the life of my boyz (which is what you are doing when holding back a needed Waagh!) just because 1-3 planes are shaken.
Even AV10 vehicles aren't shaken by nothing, so that's shooting not going into kanz or battlewagons. It's too bad you don't get those 18 shots, but in no way worth risking the backbone of your army.
However, especially with battlewagons I have often found myself not needing the Waaagh! to get into combat, so I often call it at the end of the game to contest objectives, or if Thrakka is present to simply give him his 2++ save or make a unit which is about to break fearless. I guess you could do the same for the jets, just call the Waagh! when you need them to shoot.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Redbeard wrote:InquisitorVaron wrote:
So doing the math hammer with the updated hitting, 2.6* hits so 1.71 Pens then with the SV that's 0.85, still not enough.
You feel insulted when I suggest you don't know what suppressed means, but then you keep insisting on calculating whether a pen gets through. You don't need to pen a vehicle to suppress it. All I need to do is shake or stun a dakkajet and it's not a threat for the next turn. I can then move on to other targets. That's suppression. If I do more than shake it, good for me. If I blow it up, great. But if I shake it, it's not shooting, and that's good enough.
What's even worse, from a strategic point of view, let's say I shake you on turn three. You could declare a waaagh on turn three to maybe make a charge you might not. Now, you need to decide, use the waagh for the assault, or save it to hopefully get double shots with your plane the next turn.
I would agree with Jidmah there, if my hordes of boyz are close enough to assault with a waaagh it's clear i'm using that.
I understand what supressed means, and the odds of a glancing hit and so on, I will work them into it if you insist. 1.083*
I concede. but that's a very fine line there.
But then we shall look into results that would stop me from unleashing the payload and add that in and it's a 0.721 chance of supressing me, below one there again.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
At .72 you will get that result more often than not.
Redbeard is right on this, no matter how you spin the numbers, dakka jets are easy to suppress. That's why you can't rely on them as you only anti-transport shooting, and need at least lootaz in addition.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Mabye so, but it's not a sure fire thing, and I've said before Dakkajets are better for AV10 and Heavy Infantry up to T6-7 (From memory)
Lootas are better for AV11-13, just trying to say Dakkajets do have a place competetively. Even if it does nothing, 18 Str 6 AP 4 shots would put the fear in most IG and Necrons lists.
A command squad would be toast, with ID. First you need to pop the vehicle which Lootas are better for. The two work well in harmony, I wasn't suggesting you ditch lootas entirely. Just drop a squad of 8 for a Dakkajet.
36809
Post by: loota boy
I'm planning on including both lootas and dakkajets in a 1500 point list i'm preparing. It's ment to be a strong, solid list, but I don't expect to be coming home with 1st place prizes. Just something a little different from the norm while still being good.
I'm thinking:
Warboss, pk, bp, cybork- 100pts.
KFF mek- 85pts.
15 burna boyz- 225pts.
5 lootas- 75pts.
5 lootas- 75pts.
19 shoota boyz w/ pk nob w/ bp- 154pts.
19 slugga boyz w/ pk nob w/ bp- 154pts.
dakkajet w/ extra supa-shoota- 135pts(?)
dakkajet w/ extra supa-shoota- 135pts(?)
EDIT: forgot my battlewagons. Three wagons with big shoota, rolla, plates, and riggers. 130 apeace. Of course, now i'm 28 points over... Guess i'll drop two burna boyz or something.
I'm fairly sure that's the price of a dakkajet with extra supa-shoota, but i'm not altogether sure. I won't be taking RPJ because from how i read the rule, it just feels like it was purely intended to just give you an extra inch and let you shoot, not to give cover saves or make it harder to hit in CC. Just seems a bit beardy to me. If a FAQ comes out, then sure, but right now I just won't.
Also, not sure if I should swap the burnas for nobz. I went with burnas instead because I wanted to try something different, but I dunno.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
I'd try to fit a unit of gretchin in somehow, but looks similar to what I'm going to do. The tool I'm using to build lists hasn't updated yet, and I'm to lazy to calculate lists by myself
As my dinner table is still littered with pieces of ork planes, I won't be playing them before the weekend anyways
59217
Post by: KrimsunBaron
Just out of pure hilarity, here's a 500p list I concocted.
Big Mek 35P
10 Gretchin 1 Runtherd with Grot Prod 45P
10 Gretchin 1 Runtherd with Grot Prod 45P
3 Dakkajets with Supa Shoota and RPJ. 375P
500p, perhaps it could work well at a Doubles 40k tournament? Either way it has a theme to suit my dakka name.
Loota boy, you've priced your jets wrong with a extra supa shoota their 120P and with a RPJ they're 125p.
I had a little proxy game using a different style list but with one dakkajet, I held back from his army wanting to counter charge, the Weirdboy i took for more Waaaghs got me a six on my first turn and the Dakkajet proceded to take out 11 of 35 Gaunts out.
It's strangely like a punisher cannon except twin linked and with AP4. Just something my eyes are picking up but it seems there latest releases all include weapons with lots of shots. IG Punisher cannon, GK heavy psilencer, Orks Dakkajet.
Not complaining though since the jets the best of the bunch 
36809
Post by: loota boy
Only 120 points for extra shoota? Nice! Now if i can clear away ten more points, i can fit in that mob of grots that Jidmah suggested...
And Krimsun, that list looks hilarious. I may just have to try it.
57646
Post by: Kain
I wonder if the Dakkajet is going to render the Fighta obsolete in Apocalypse games.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Nah, the Fighta is still a Flyer and only gets hit on 6s. That said, in Appocalypse I might rather just field a boat load of Dakkajets and Blitzbommas just for doubling the shots during Waaagh.
Totally Awsome Idea here!
15 Dakkajets with extra Supashoota, RPJ, and Fighta Ace
5 Blitzabommas with RPJ
and 5 Warp'eads in a looted Stormraven(for extra Waaaaghs)
57646
Post by: Kain
Grey Templar wrote:Nah, the Fighta is still a Flyer and only gets hit on 6s. That said, in Appocalypse I might rather just field a boat load of Dakkajets and Blitzbommas just for doubling the shots during Waaagh.
Totally Awsome Idea here!
15 Dakkajets with extra Supashoota, RPJ, and Fighta Ace
5 Blitzabommas with RPJ
and 5 Warp'eads in a looted Stormraven(for extra Waaaaghs)
That's a lot of dakka on wings. 
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
300 twin-linked Supashoota shots a turn(and 5 Boom Bombs)
59217
Post by: KrimsunBaron
Thanks loota boy.
I'm probably going to stick with just one at 500p. Or two, perhaps two.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
I finally got to unpacking my planes, just to find out that I'm all out of glue and tomorrow is a holiday in Germany  So I'd like to share some details about the model instead: Almost Enuff Dakka! There actually are three pairs of supa-shootaz for the model, and you can fit them all on without converting anything. The first pair goes on the wings, where you can also put breaking flaps. Those hold in place without magnetizing and can easily be replaced by those flaps when using one of the bommers rather than the dakka jet. These use the same shootaz as the grot turret, you get four of those. The blitza bommer gets an extra shoota similar to those found on the battlewagon. The second pair can be put on an optional bit connecting the wings to the plane, as seen on the white dwarf cover. You get two extra-long gun barres for those. I think the connecting thing is a pain to magnetize, you are best off either just leaving them on when running a skorcha bommer, or just magnetizing the gun barrel and replacing it with glyphs. You can easily magnetize it while building the plane, a lot harder to do afterwards. Just put a magnet behind the hole, put a small pieve of metal on the shoota and you're set. The last two shootas are on the front of the jet, they are also easily magnetized, by putting magnets inside the plane where you would stick them. The shoota mounts are hollow inside, perfect places for magnets. The bit holding the grot turret and the motor-block like thing behind the pilot are hard to magnetize and will not hold in place by themselves. The single grot shoota works fine though (yes, every variant has completely different models). You are short a gretchin torso though, either just put the cupola on the turret, or use the gretchin gunner from the battle wagon kit. The turret for the burna bommer rotates 360°, the single shoota for the blitza bommer is hull mounted. The bommer also comes with a full load out of skorcha rokkits (size of rokkits), two skorcha bombs (about the hight of a boy, as thick as a nob arm - they look like torpedos) and two boom bombs (large enough to fit two gretchin or three squigs inside). Dat's big! The plane is almost 7" long, depending on how many of the optional wing bits you use 10-12" wide, the lowest part is 4" off ground. The base can be as far as 8" away from a battlewagon without losing KFF protection, a little more than 5" away from a big mek on foot. I did not measure to any weaponry, as that's not hull. I haz skarf! You get the choice of three gretchin hads, one new, the other two can also be found on bikers and the battlewagon's grot oiler. The pilot can have a choice of four heads, one is the same as AOBR koptaz have, one is wearing Zagstrukk's hat (I know who is getting shot next), one is wearing sunglasses and a headset, and the last one is similar to the first, but has a scarf flying in the wind. I guess the scarf is the official WYSIWYG for the fighta ace Lookin' good! You have lots of options for putting optional or alternative bits; the wings, turrets and the tailfin can each be modified to get about five or six combinations of different looking planes of the same type out of it. Only downside is that you have to tilt the wings if you ever plan on using all six shootaz, as the bit is not easily magnetized or pinned (see above). All in all, great model, can't wait to get more glue 
36940
Post by: Anvildude
I think GW may actually have started to get things right with their newer kits- options, bits and customization galore. Especially with their current Ork line, there's really been no bad models or kits.
59217
Post by: KrimsunBaron
Anvildude wrote:I think GW may actually have started to get things right with their newer kits- options, bits and customization galore. Especially with their current Ork line, there's really been no bad models or kits.
I heartily agree. 
465
Post by: Redbeard
Can the ork blitz-bomber ever fire its big shoota and supa-shotas together, given that the big shoota points backwards and the supashootas point forwards, and it doesn't have a machine spirit?
44531
Post by: Agent_Tremolo
Who needs a Machine Spirit when you have a grot gunner?
But yea, no info on firing arcs on WD206. We'll have to wait for the next FAQs, i guess.
For fairness' sake, I'd limit my targets to 180º backwards until we get an answer.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
My guess is that 6th edition will change how vehicles fire so that the position of the Grot Gunner makes sense.
I'm thinking vehicles may split fire at 2 seperate targets and PotMS allows an additional target/weapon.
59217
Post by: KrimsunBaron
I would say the same thing, that it gets the 180 degree arc at the back.
Another reason for the dakkajet in my eyes.
36940
Post by: Anvildude
Actually, this could be a good indication of the 'firing points' or whatever they were called from Pancake edition; where vehicles all had, say, 2 basic, and that doubled if you didn't move too fast, and you could spend them to fire multiple weapons, or spend one to allow yourself to split fire.
30006
Post by: Runna
I'd like to have a few and run them. Probably three or two. Don't kow if I'd just run one.
I would definately keep them in reserves though, because I don't see them being to good first turn unless you're going first, otherwise you better have some things your opponent wants to kill more, and you likely don't...so as reserves I see them being awesome.
Then again I'd gather that would take some playing with them to be sure.
Which means I would say, go ahead and get you one. If that was still a question.
So much awesome dakka.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Redbeard wrote:Can the ork blitz-bomber ever fire its big shoota and supa-shotas together, given that the big shoota points backwards and the supashootas point forwards, and it doesn't have a machine spirit?
Under the current rules, no way. Well, unless you are passing right in front of a hirophant, I guess They are both hull mounted (thus 45° LoS), so they will most likely never see the same target. You get the choice between shooting S6 AP4 at BS2 or S5 BS5 at BS3 though. When shooting light infantry, the later might be better.
465
Post by: Redbeard
Twin-linked bs2, right? So it's always better to fire the supashootas.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Right, it's twin-linked - so the poor grot might be useless after all... unless you lose your supa-shoota.
41945
Post by: InquisitorVaron
Well. The supa shoota is actually BS3 TL against most things other than jetbikes and fast skimmers.
The blitza bomba one is nigh on useless.
The burna bomba on the other hand isn't.
Another thing is that it doesn't say anywhere I can't use the grot insider a orb that can swivel.
Bit MFA though.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
InquisitorVaron wrote:Well. The supa shoota is actually BS3 TL against most things other than jetbikes and fast skimmers.
It is not. The dakka jet has that ability, not the supa shoota, so the blizza bommer shoots its supa shootas at BS2.
The blitza bomba one is nigh on useless.
The burna bomba on the other hand isn't.
I assume you are referring to the big shootas - In that case I agree with you.
Another thing is that it doesn't say anywhere I can't use the grot insider a orb that can swivel. Bit MFA though.
Actually it says so in the construction manual. Besides that, the turret is armed with a TL-big shoota, and the blizza bommer doesn't have one.
I also wouldn't call that "a bit", it's right with a landraider mounting both sponsons on the same side.
30137
Post by: Magnalon
[Edit] - mis-post
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Magnalon wrote:[Edit] - mis-post
So why exactly are we bringing this thread back to life a month after it died?
30137
Post by: Magnalon
Wrong thread.
Hence, the mis-post.
Derp.
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