It looks like a flying toaster. While i prefer pronounced angles, its to much like a flying square. And the Chin mounted twin linked assult cannons, just aweful.
Really needs a bit of lengthening to make it look less box (and attain that assault ehlicopter look it was going for). Assault cannons mess with the thing's outline terrible, so either remove them altogether or find something smaller. Engine size is a bit of an irk, but I can roll with it seeing as the thing is a brick. Cockpit could do with being enclosed too perhaps, or at least have more armour
On the rules side the armour values are a bit weak. I don't know how it compares to other flyers, but it does look like a flying bunker, so shouldn't it be higher or have some form of "extra armour". As for the armament, what's up with giving it just the heavy bolters or missile pods, the assault cannon seems a little overkill to me. An autocannon, or something smaller would fit the thing's profile a bit more perhaps.
Considering buying one for my Chaos, but Chapterhouse really needs to make a conversion kit for it. =/
I think it is a great looking kit. The auto cannons are a bit big to be under slung like that I will admit, but overall it is way better than either stormraven (chapterhouse or unmodified). I might buy one and convert it without the weapons just because I like the look of the kit.
Games Workshop has really outdone themselves. They gave it their all to make a model uglier than the Storm Raven, and succeeded.
I'm really not sure what can be done to "fix" this model either. I mean, extension kits like Chapterhouse alleviate some (but not all by any means) of the Storm Ravens ugly issues. I don't see any way to fix this without building an entirely new model mostly from scratch using the bits.
I wasn't sure about the model at first, but after a day or two I like it aside from the assault cannons. I plan on swapping them out for smaller Ravenwing ones.
For some reason I really like the model (and rules), cant place why exactly. It seems like a sum of alot of ugly parts make a model that for some reason works.
Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Have not recieved US WD yet. Could someone please describe "Hover Strike" rule and "Escort Craft" rules.
THANKS!!
I might have gotten something off but in a nutshell: Hover Strike - looses Fast to gain +1BS against some targets (excluding skimmers I think and possibly something else). Escort Craft - assign it to some unit and it automatically arrives with it from reserves (same border; max. 6" away). No for Deep Strike.
Is it OK to post this?
KingDeath wrote:The underslung assault cannon is terrible, the rest is merely meh.
Agreed. It lands on it? It's a weapon platform / landing gear?
I like it tbh.... although the assault cannons are way too freaking big. If they couldve made it sleeker I wouldve bought 3..... For now just 1.... I can't sacrifice my assault squads for it. (and yes I field them proudly! )
Rules-wise it looks cool, mabye. Model wise, It's like some people were talking about the stormraven and said "well, at least they didn't...". Then GW did.
And the landing gear on the oversize turret? The whole gun section on the turret is just too bulky. Byt yeah, with some extra stuff here, and some less stuff there, and a bit of shifting around it could look pretty cool. That should not be needed.
it looks like it has real 'potential', i.e ripping it up an making something epic out of it, but on it's own it looks quite silly and not very sm, more machanicus suited i think.
RaptorsTallon wrote:I quite like it, reminds me a bit of the banshee from Starcraft. I don't know why.
Prehaps a bit stubby, but nice none the less.
I thought it reminded me of something! I see what they were going for, but I think they made it too compact. If it weren't as stocky it would have been great.
If anyone played G-Police on PS-1, Am I the only one that thinks that if you lengthened the fuselage it would look like the jet-thingy out of it. But I digress. I think it looks kinda cool.
The Crusader wrote:If anyone played G-Police on PS-1, Am I the only one that thinks that if you lengthened the fuselage it would look like the jet-thingy out of it. But I digress. I think it looks kinda cool.
P.S can Templars use it?
Nope, sorry. From what I've heard only vanilla SM gets it.
Templars will probably get a flying in their update.
But as it, it just doesn't quite work. It's the same problem with the Stormhawk, it's just too compact to make it visually appealing. Take the thunderhawk, it's long, bulky and has a menacing face. Neither of these new kits has the qualities. They don't have that beautiful ugliness which pervades the other marine vehicles.
add in the storm raven wings in behind the engines, and mount the AC on those. then you have a winner. as it is.... it just looks chunky and very forced. like they wanted a generic flier for the vanila mehreens, but it had to be diffrent then the SR.. so this is what was defecated out.
It looks far too practical for 40k. There should be a giant arm sticking out of it, holding a giant sword. It made me think of those gunships from Avatar, mostly because they'll be spinning to the ground and exploding.
The front end needs to be streamlined, if that was done the model wouldn't be so front heavy and it would probably end up being much more aesthetically pleasing.
I'd be inclined to cut away all the pieces that hold the weapons away from the main body and have them attached directly.
Lots I've comments I've seem seems to yell ugly, but really out of the 3 new flyers, the only one I found myself looking at was the talon. Hate at me but I really quite like the model and it has such a good range of loadouts.
I need to have that in my army, now! At least 2 of them yes please thank you.
Edit: I will say this, it just looks like it has too many guns on it, lose either the HB or assault cannons, otherwise it reminds me of that preposterous flying thing in halo 3. Just kinda silly... still want some, but silly none the less.
In terms of rules? It's fine, unnecessary and forced, but fine. It's an uparmored landspeeder with a couple special rules for twice the price. Neither broken nor useless.
In terms of the model? It looks ridiculous, it's difficult to take seriously as a gunship. It has a very "chibi/eggplane" look about it, like a box with a couple fins stuck on an a comically oversized gun turret.
Actually, in many ways, it looks like a cockpit section that fell off a much larger vehicle.
I want to get it and use it for some kind of IG small transporter, by taking all the bulky weapons off it. Or I might add a sentinel missile pod on each side.
I thought the Stormraven looked too compressed to be a useful aircraft. This looks like a cartoon, a suggestion of soemthing that might fly, created by someone who has no concept of aerial dynamics.
This model is the greatist model since the stormraven as it is only (uk) £27.50 and it is cheap in points cost for what it is only 130 points and it can move flat out up to 36" and it can destroy ork bommers (if it has lascannons) on a 1 to glance and a 2 to penetrate how good i that!
Mordiggian wrote:I thought the Stormraven looked too compressed to be a useful aircraft. This looks like a cartoon, a suggestion of soemthing that might fly, created by someone who has no concept of aerial dynamics.
You mean just like the Thunderhawk, and the Stormraven, and every other "Flier" out there?
None of the "Fliers" have enough surface area on the wings to be able to actually fly.
I'm disapponted - we know GW can make good flyers - look at the Valkyrie or the new ork stuff, It just seems to be that every SM flyer has to be horribly ugly.
My problem is that it looks like they just stuck guns on every available suraface - it's overgunned for it's size - plenty of guns is fine, but only if the flyer looks like it could conceivably carry them.
It looks like it'd be slow and easy prey for any other flyer, as at least the other ones look aerodynamic enough to ackeive liftoff :/
orkdestroyer1 wrote:This model is the greatist model since the stormraven as it is only (uk) £27.50 and it is cheap in points cost for what it is only 130 points and it can move flat out up to 36" and it can destroy ork bommers (if it has lascannons) on a 1 to glance and a 2 to penetrate how good i that!
I'm pretty sure we all know how lascannons work, but thanks anyway. I've gotta say the price isn't bad for what you're getting though, either in points or real world moneys. Once it has legit flyer rules in 6th it'll be even better, and more than an uparmored Land Speeder with some special rules.
This thing is awesome, everything a small SM flyer should be. Much MUCH better looking than a landspeeder, WAY better than the Stormraven. Very very cool!
Mordiggian wrote:I thought the Stormraven looked too compressed to be a useful aircraft. This looks like a cartoon, a suggestion of soemthing that might fly, created by someone who has no concept of aerial dynamics.
You mean just like the Thunderhawk, and the Stormraven, and every other "Flier" out there?
None of the "Fliers" have enough surface area on the wings to be able to actually fly.
At most they could hover (Fly) like a helicopter.
Well, in the Thunderhawk's defense, at least it subscribes to "rule of cool" and looks slick enough to be a desirable model.
The Storm Raven cracks me up with its top turret. What good is a gunship that can't bring its guns to bear on ground targets? At least the Talon fixed this.
risK on BolterandChainsword posted this photoshop. It's not perfect, but definitely an improvement. I'd still trim down the side housings and move them up, keep the original canopy, and obviously mod the landing gear.
Honestly, this makes more sense. For a VTOL craft with a single pilot, having a chin turret isn't really necessary. The pilot can point the craft where he wants to shoot. Space Marines are pretty awesome, but I'm not sure they can multitask quite at the level to fly in one direction while shooting in another, lol.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Storm Raven cracks me up with its top turret. What good is a gunship that can't bring its guns to bear on ground targets? At least the Talon fixed this.
You realize that this is GW right? The thing can not even fly, why worry about where its turret is with a "Real World" view? The rules are an abstraction used to simulate a battle. "Real World" Physics have nothing to do with the game.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Honestly, this makes more sense. For a VTOL craft with a single pilot, having a chin turret isn't really necessary. The pilot can point the craft where he wants to shoot. Space Marines are pretty awesome, but I'm not sure they can multitask quite at the level to fly in one direction while shooting in another, lol.
Space Marines can fly forward, while looking right, and bullseye things out of the left side of the craft, so they can make full utilization of that bottom turret. (Not that anyone will, in practice, unless it has PoTMS).
To be honest I'm not really a fan of the Stormtoaster. I think that the model is too silly and the rules aren't great. In short, I think that you are either going to shoot with it, and maybe kill something, not get the cover save and it is going to get blown out of the sky, or you are going to fly around with it, get the cover save to get some survivability but not shoot. I don't see the hover rule coming into effect particularly often though. If anyone gets any experience with this thing to the contruary please let me know but as it currently stands I don't really rate it in gameplay terms.
Rampage wrote:To be honest I'm not really a fan of the Stormtoaster. I think that the model is too silly and the rules aren't great. In short, I think that you are either going to shoot with it, and maybe kill something, not get the cover save and it is going to get blown out of the sky, or you are going to fly around with it, get the cover save to get some survivability but not shoot. I don't see the hover rule coming into effect particularly often though. If anyone has any experience with this thing to the contruary please let me know but as it currently stands I don't really rate it in gameplay terms.
No one has any experence with them.
they don't get released untill the 2nd of june
Rampage wrote:To be honest I'm not really a fan of the Stormtoaster. I think that the model is too silly and the rules aren't great. In short, I think that you are either going to shoot with it, and maybe kill something, not get the cover save and it is going to get blown out of the sky, or you are going to fly around with it, get the cover save to get some survivability but not shoot. I don't see the hover rule coming into effect particularly often though. If anyone has any experience with this thing to the contruary please let me know but as it currently stands I don't really rate it in gameplay terms.
No one has any experence with them.
they don't get released untill the 2nd of june
I get that, I should have used future tense I think, that was a stupid lexical error on my part. I mean that if anyone has any experience with them after they are released. I'll go back to my original post and clear that up.
Getting ONE just for the special rules. Other than that, it reminds me of a Cobra ship from the GI Joe movie and the thing should have been lengthened and the landing gear put behind the heavy bolters.
Antigravity can effectively nullify all arguments about it being aerodynamic. However the assault cannons do make it look horribly front heavy (the edit previously shown looks far better). As it has no transport capacity i have LESS of an issue with "scale".
vodo40k wrote:Antigravity can effectively nullify all arguments about it being aerodynamic. However the assault cannons do make it look horribly front heavy (the edit previously shown looks far better). As it has no transport capacity i have LESS of an issue with "scale".
Another reason they give me a good first impression; no need to pay for transport capabilities that I may not want, but will feel obligated to fill in order to feel I'm getting my points worth. Kind of like how I feel the Land Raider would be used much more often if it couldn't transport, but costed 50 points less.
Mordiggian wrote:I thought the Stormraven looked too compressed to be a useful aircraft. This looks like a cartoon, a suggestion of soemthing that might fly, created by someone who has no concept of aerial dynamics.
You mean just like the Thunderhawk, and the Stormraven, and every other "Flier" out there?
None of the "Fliers" have enough surface area on the wings to be able to actually fly.
At most they could hover (Fly) like a helicopter.
Well, in the Thunderhawk's defense, at least it subscribes to "rule of cool" and looks slick enough to be a desirable model.
The Storm Raven cracks me up with its top turret. What good is a gunship that can't bring its guns to bear on ground targets? At least the Talon fixed this.
risK on BolterandChainsword posted this photoshop. It's not perfect, but definitely an improvement. I'd still trim down the side housings and move them up, keep the original canopy, and obviously mod the landing gear.
Honestly, this makes more sense. For a VTOL craft with a single pilot, having a chin turret isn't really necessary. The pilot can point the craft where he wants to shoot. Space Marines are pretty awesome, but I'm not sure they can multitask quite at the level to fly in one direction while shooting in another, lol.
personally I love this model, im a huge fan of Arial support crafts like attack choppers. I think ill be upping my 2k army to a 2.5k army to accommodate 3 of these bad boys. 1 will have a TL laz cannon and 2 will have the ML that have a range of 60".
early on in this thread someone asked what the escort rule meant, basically it means that when you bring in a unit from reserve this unit can come along with it and then break off and do its own thing.
IE i bring in a Rhino this bad boy come in at the same time. so if you bring in a drop pod one of these bad boys come in with it, (i think it works with drop pods)
Backspacehacker wrote:personally I love this model, im a huge fan of Arial support crafts like attack choppers. I think ill be upping my 2k army to a 2.5k army to accommodate 3 of these bad boys. 1 will have a TL laz cannon and 2 will have the ML that have a range of 60".
early on in this thread someone asked what the escort rule meant, basically it means that when you bring in a unit from reserve this unit can come along with it and then break off and do its own thing.
IE i bring in a Rhino this bad boy come in at the same time. so if you bring in a drop pod one of these bad boys come in with it, (i think it works with drop pods)
Crap, you can get 'em with an ML? The GW page only had pics of them standard, or with the HBs swapped foLCs. With a range of 60"? Damn, I think I've gotta get at least one now. Maybe it'll be my mid-semester project. An hour here and there, and whabam, by the end of the year it's done.
standard: having TL heavy bolters
or TL laz cannons
or ML able to use frag or krak (dont know the range on them)
then another ML type think its called thunderstorm ML or something like that. but it has a range of 60" and is a heavy 3
Backspacehacker wrote:They have 4 options you can pick from
standard: having TL heavy bolters or TL laz cannons or ML able to use frag or krak (dont know the range on them) then another ML type think its called thunderstorm ML or something like that. but it has a range of 60" and is a heavy 3
Psh, damn. Save that for next summer, get three of them. I can do Rhinos for my tac squads over the year.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
risK on BolterandChainsword posted this photoshop. It's not perfect, but definitely an improvement. I'd still trim down the side housings and move them up, keep the original canopy, and obviously mod the landing gear.
Honestly, this makes more sense. For a VTOL craft with a single pilot, having a chin turret isn't really necessary. The pilot can point the craft where he wants to shoot. Space Marines are pretty awesome, but I'm not sure they can multitask quite at the level to fly in one direction while shooting in another, lol.
yeah, would def keep the more open canopy, I dont mind the assault cannons hanging down, but i do like them tucked in to
I wonder why GW bother paying highly skilled professionals thousands of pounds when clearly there are so many people on the internet who're better at designing things than they are?
Honestly, I think it looks pretty cool. All the whining about how "ugly" it looks will fade in time when people get used to it.
Also pointless discussing it rules-wise since it's very obviously intended for 6th Edition.
Mordiggian wrote:I thought the Stormraven looked too compressed to be a useful aircraft. This looks like a cartoon, a suggestion of soemthing that might fly, created by someone who has no concept of aerial dynamics.
You mean just like the Thunderhawk, and the Stormraven, and every other "Flier" out there?
None of the "Fliers" have enough surface area on the wings to be able to actually fly.
At most they could hover (Fly) like a helicopter.
Yes, but to an even greater degree.
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vodo40k wrote:Antigravity can effectively nullify all arguments about it being aerodynamic. However the assault cannons do make it look horribly front heavy (the edit previously shown looks far better). As it has no transport capacity i have LESS of an issue with "scale".
Then why give it the teeny suggestions of wings and the tail? If it's got antigrav, it can look like a washimg machine, a boiler, or a dodecahedron, and still fly.
Don't like the model, though I do like the idea of giving it lascannons and escorting my horde squashing land speeders for some longer ange anti tank fire power.
Needs to be longer, ass cans should not be underslung, or that big. Maybe open.sided with 1 cannon per side, manned by marines. Apache style. That'd look awesome.
Joey wrote:I wonder why GW bother paying highly skilled professionals thousands of pounds when clearly there are so many people on the internet who're better at designing things than they are?
Honestly, I think it looks pretty cool. All the whining about how "ugly" it looks will fade in time when people get used to it.
Also pointless discussing it rules-wise since it's very obviously intended for 6th Edition.
This. We can all complain about how beardy or useless it is, once we actually see it in its natural habitat.
I like it, though it confuses me as to why they included it? Of all the things they could do for the C:SM or for any other dex for that matter, this is what they came out with? Makes me wonder about 6th ed.? I think it has a very landed and reversed "slave one" look to it? I'd like to see it w/o canopy, just like a roll cage, maybe? The landing gear on gun carriage is first thing i noticed too, but I don't think the Assault Cannon is "too much"... put the turret on top and landing gear on rocket pods? It would make a "cool" edition to my Scars/Ravens but still don't know if I'll run out and buy one... not sure about the points or special rules for this but why not just go with the Tempest Speeder?
I hate this model with a passion. The rules are droll and the assault cannons make it look stupid. Top it off with a dollup of overpriced weaponry and gakky armour and you have something that isn't worth the time it takes to put it together, let alone paint it.
I want a gunship to look like this:
or something like an orca out of command and conquer. What they've gone for here is silly and out of proportion. The wings are tiny and the body is huge. The guns are huge. The engines are unnecessarily huge. Who the feth decided that the wings would face backwards?
I would rather have a Storm Raven for all its faults (at least its wings are large enough that they could be realistic, even if they are far too far behind the body of the vehicle.) than this hunk of plastic.
The stormtalon does not look like a flying toaster because the stormraven looks like a flying toaster and the hole where the top turret has been taken off is the `crumpet hole`
At this point, I'm going to stop snickering at GW utilizing the works of James Cameron/WWI/ and various other films by proxy. Original GW designs just aren't appealing.
Have to see if my DA will be allowed to use it before I induct the "flying toaster" into my Ravenwing. Not real crazy about the model but maybe will get used to it.
THIS! But, I really like all of the flyers. This is 40k...my orks are carrying a hammer a stick of metal and a rocket on the end and taking out tanks with it. "Things that shouldn't be" should be left to real life
Scipio Africanus wrote:Who the feth decided that the wings would face backwards?
And yet the model you look at has "backwards wings"
No, the wings come out to a flat. On both the storm Raven and this... Talon... the wings go in a diagonal line until the end. The Valkyrie at least ends with a level end. (not that it's much better.)
These models are small, chunky and ridiculous. While I realise in part this is so they take up less space, an aircraft is usually fairly small, but it is not chunky.
The body is fairly long and the wings are broad. On this, the body is large and the wings are tiny - and facing backwards. At least on the valkyrie the wings are suitable on the body of the vehicle (and in a good position, not like the storm raven where the wings are all the way at the back for god knows what reason.)
But, in saying this Forge world is no better. All the models wings are at the back for SM, again for god knows what reason.
its pretty compact and looks fairley decent all things conisdered, aside from the weapons being in an odd spot.
rules wise....ZOMG is it broken.... aireal assault AND supersonic??? really? oh and it gets hoverstrike.... its like space marines were getting killed by DE too much, so they had to borrow the DE rules to make them happy. talk about silly. but hey.... whatever sells MOAR MEHREENS!!!!!
I think they were like: OMG that Avartar movie by James Cameron was awsome! So let's make one of those wierd planes and make it into an uglier version of it. Or maybe a kid of a Games Workshop designer got ahold of a Thunderhawk gun ship and hit it on the floor a couple times? If I had to make a decision, I would rather buy a Valkyrie kit and make it count as a Storm Talon or mould huge wings out of Green stuff and have wings on it instead of those horrible jet engines on the side of it and the autocannons on either wings.
I think I made a comment to a friend about how you would be crazy not to want what is basicly a flying, almost assult proof lascannon boat. They say it being high up is bad. No! its bad for you. Where are you going to hide?
it seems lacking to me. a single las cannon? garbage IMO I think the missile launcher in the only viable upgrade simply because you get 2 shots with it.
the single heavy bolter is garbage too.
immune to melta doesn't mean anything to me for an armor 11 flyer. you only need a 3 to glance in which you can still destroy it on a glancing roll of 6.
it just seems like balloon floating in the air waiting to be destroyed.
Whats easier, getting a 3 on one die, or getting a 3 on two dice?
ceramite plating helps in the unlikley situation that someone gets in melta range (it's probably already been destroyed by this point).
I think the big issue here is that people are expecting to much from it. its not meant to be a super heavy flyer like an Apache gun ship, its more along the lines of a smaller more agile scouting chopper. its lightly equipped. not meant to be a tank killer but harass the hell outta infantry. with a TL assault cannon and equipping the ML or the storm hammer ML will let you put some hurt on any sort of infantry and with the 60" range you can hit them from a far
I really like the look of it, i think i will buy 2 of them to put with my ultra smurfs and equip them with the Heavy 3 launcher and use it for infantry and light vehicle hunting, even though i wish they had raised the cost just a little bit and made it AV12, but i realize that it would just be a non troop carrying stormraven so i can see why they made it AV11
My iron hands list uses 3 thunderfire cannons, so it has little more than 2 razorbacks for long range anti-tank. These little fliers changed everything, now I have 2 (well 3, but a mispak error means I'm waiting on the mail) and it's going to be an armored iron hands list at it's finest.
Now if only there was a way to take landspeeders as elites choices, I'd be sooooo happy.
It's pug-ugly and wildly unfeasible as a flying vehicle. As such, it's an excellent example of "Imperial" vehicle design. I like it.
What's odd is NOT the Storm Talon/Raven/Eagle.... it's that something ad relatively sleek as a Land Speeder slipped through the design phase to actually make it into production!
Joey wrote:I wonder why GW bother paying highly skilled professionals thousands of pounds when clearly there are so many people on the internet who're better at designing things than they are?
Honestly, I think it looks pretty cool. All the whining about how "ugly" it looks will fade in time when people get used to it.
Also pointless discussing it rules-wise since it's very obviously intended for 6th Edition.
I hate this argument every time it comes up about anything. A person does not need to be a better designer or artist to determine if something looks bad. One does not need to be able to do a job themselves to spot if someone else has done the job badly.
Who says you cant feild one in an alternitive space marine codex(blood angels for example) well blood angels are space marines so lets feild our blood angels,black templars,space wolves,dark angels stormtalons proudly and show that xeno scum a thing or two.
I think it is pretty ugly, but since I don't have a SM army anymore that really doesn't matter. I will be buying a couple of the ork bommerz, though for my soon to appear new ork army.
orkdestroyer1 wrote:Who says you cant feild one in an alternitive space marine codex(blood angels for example) well blood angels are space marines so lets feild our blood angels,black templars,space wolves,dark angels stormtalons proudly and show that xeno scum a thing or two.
(please back me up on this)
The same reason that blood angels are the only ones who can field Baal preds, or furioso dreads? Why can only space wolves take long fangs and thunderwolf cavalry? How come only Dark Angels gets Raven wing? Why do Templars have to hog all the neophytes? How come only grey knights have paladins and purifiers?
The codexes are barely different from each other to begin with, that's why. They need every ounce of individualism they can get.
Who will take the thing though? at 150 ish points for something as durable as a rhino is stupid. Pay the extra 30 and get 2 typhoons, more shots, more targets.
Unless 6th pulls something out for flyers this is a dust collector.
I'm torn on this one. It looks like a boss in a video game I played once. If the thing doesn't move fast I can see this functioning as a relatively slow moving flying tank of destruction.
Hojtastic wrote:I'm torn on this one. It looks like a boss in a video game I played once. If the thing doesn't move fast I can see this functioning as a relatively slow moving flying tank of destruction.
But if it's supposed to move fast then no way.
It has aerial assault and super sonic, so it does move quick, but its still a rhino.
Hojtastic wrote:I'm torn on this one. It looks like a boss in a video game I played once. If the thing doesn't move fast I can see this functioning as a relatively slow moving flying tank of destruction.
But if it's supposed to move fast then no way.
It has aerial assault and super sonic, so it does move quick, but its still a rhino.
Yeah, I think at the end of the day its durability is the main problem. It's a flying Rhino, which means it's never going to get a cover save from terrain, and the only way to get one is by moving flat out, which now means that you're not shooting.
So yeah, uh,faster flying rhino with no transport, only slightly more armour and a lot more firepower. It sucks.
Yeah, uh, faster flying trukk with a lot more firepower (3 TL Supa Shootas/ 1 SS, 1 BS 3 TL Big Shoota+ Burna Bombs and Skorcha Rokkits/ TL Supa Soota, 2 Bombs and 1 BS 3 Big Shoota) only slightly more durable (not open topped) and no transport. Yeah, it must suck too.
The same reason that blood angels are the only ones who can field Baal preds, or furioso dreads? Why can only space wolves take long fangs and thunderwolf cavalry? How come only Dark Angels gets Raven wing? Why do Templars have to hog all the neophytes? How come only grey knights have paladins and purifiers?
The codexes are barely different from each other to begin with, that's why. They need every ounce of individualism they can get.
Is there any justification for this model at all???
Why didn't they just release a Land Speeder kit to represent the FW tempest???? They could have added an armored piece that overlays the open cockpit, twin-linked assault cannons to fit under the nose like a Ravenwing LS, and empty pods in place of the Typhoon's that could hold Heavy Bolters/lascannons/missiles?
Hell, for the same price I can buy a Landspeeder kit + Ravenwing Sprue and make a "Stormtalon-variant Landspeeder" that will fit the feel of my existing Space Marines a helluva lot better, and other than something to cover the cockpit, it's not even a conversion- just straight parts in the appropriate places!!!!.
Use either of these options and add the Stormtalon rules. It's what I'll probably be doing.
You can get the base Landspeeder kit+ ravenwing landspeeder add-ons for 30 dollars through the warstore's Bitz service! The Ravenwing kit even has spare Heavy Bolters to replace the missiles if you wish.
It's just an excuse to add another so called "Kewl toy" into the range. It looks like a cut and shunt, Stormraven, which in turn is a cut and shunt Stormeagle and in turn this is a cut and shunt Thunderhawk.
The logic being "Everyone Loves a thunderhawk" but few can afford them, and they have slowly brought the fly range a wider and wider market by making a smaller and smaller, and cheaper (but not much) SM flyer.
I wish they would stop for a minute and stop cranking out this stuff and ret-conning the universe to include this poo. Stuff like this is for FW not for the GW core range. Next expect a budget level Titan, oh yeah a Knight Paladin, Knight Baron cost £70 Bigger than a Dread-knight smaller than a Warhound. They are expanding into bigger and bigger kits where the margin is appallingly good, bit more cardboard and a 3 part Metal plastic mould, then crank it out like it's going out of fashion. GW are printing money at the moment, no sign of the so called Price backlash.
The one thing I have to admit is that I could possibly see the Stormtalon hitting my table if I made it look like this mode but with the assault cannons alingside the air intakes on each side of the cockpit.:
loota boy wrote:The same reason that blood angels are the only ones who can field Baal preds, or furioso dreads? Why can only space wolves take long fangs and thunderwolf cavalry? How come only Dark Angels gets Raven wing? Why do Templars have to hog all the neophytes? How come only grey knights have paladins and purifiers?
The codexes are barely different from each other to begin with, that's why. They need every ounce of individualism they can get.
Actually a lot of the special rules that separate the marine chapters are kind of dumb. The only reason we have such stupid limitations and unavailablity to other marine chapters is to make the chapters "unique". All a bunch of crap to make you buy more armies to use all the minis you want to use. The books are written in vaccuums too so that you can't even easily mix and match from the various marine codecies to play the army you want with your friends. Prices vary too widely between the various books. Also the units that are unique to various forces don't all have to be. The death company is an example of a truly unique unit for blood angels. Meanwhile there is just no really good reason for Blood angels to be the only force with access to baal predators, or librarian/chaplain dreadnoughts. Just dumb. Also why should long fangs have a special ability to split fire that *any* unit should be able to do to. Yep they are long lived...so is every other space marine in any other chapter who is a devastator. Unless killed in battle they are going to be around for quite some time, but can never get good enough with their weapons like long fangs to be able to shoot separate units. Just dumb... Limiting the stormtalon to some, but not all space marine forces would be just as dumb. There is no balance reason to do it. The only reason is to make you stop playing your current favorite army to buy and paint an almost identical army in different colors just so you can use the cool new model...
(I did think that Devastators were junior marines, sent to the Devs after coming out of the scout company? )
i think that the new guys are the ones who have the bolters and support the older and more veteran troops who man the heavy weapons, but I may be wrong
Scout
Dev with Bolter who calls targets
Dev with Heavy weapon
Assault Marine. If he does well he can go straight to Vanguard Vet after 150+yrs
Tactical (they need to be experianced in both and flexible. Assault and Dev is training).
Either Sergeant of his squad or Veteran. Vets can be either 1st company or a command squad.
Vets assigned to 1st Company Squads or Sgts of others, usually scout or Tac Squads.
Sgts, usually the best and longest serving, is assigned to be Captain if his predecessor dies, or a 1st Company Vet is assigned to it.
Highly decorated individuals are inducted into honour guard unless the object, such as Sgt Telion.
Typically the first Captain becomes CM. If the Chapter council disagrees with this I believe they must unanimously elect a successor.
Scout
Dev with Bolter who calls targets
Dev with Heavy weapon
Assault Marine. If he does well he can go straight to Vanguard Vet after 150+yrs
Tactical (they need to be experianced in both and flexible. Assault and Dev is training).
Either Sergeant of his squad or Veteran. Vets can be either 1st company or a command squad.
Vets assigned to 1st Company Squads or Sgts of others, usually scout or Tac Squads.
Sgts, usually the best and longest serving, is assigned to be Captain if his predecessor dies, or a 1st Company Vet is assigned to it.
Highly decorated individuals are inducted into honour guard unless the object, such as Sgt Telion.
Typically the first Captain becomes CM. If the Chapter council disagrees with this I believe they must unanimously elect a successor.
I take it it take 150 years to be a Sternguard as well, right?
loota boy wrote:The same reason that blood angels are the only ones who can field Baal preds, or furioso dreads? Why can only space wolves take long fangs and thunderwolf cavalry? How come only Dark Angels gets Raven wing? Why do Templars have to hog all the neophytes? How come only grey knights have paladins and purifiers?
The codexes are barely different from each other to begin with, that's why. They need every ounce of individualism they can get.
Actually a lot of the special rules that separate the marine chapters are kind of dumb. The only reason we have such stupid limitations and unavailablity to other marine chapters is to make the chapters "unique". All a bunch of crap to make you buy more armies to use all the minis you want to use. The books are written in vaccuums too so that you can't even easily mix and match from the various marine codecies to play the army you want with your friends. Prices vary too widely between the various books. Also the units that are unique to various forces don't all have to be. The death company is an example of a truly unique unit for blood angels. Meanwhile there is just no really good reason for Blood angels to be the only force with access to baal predators, or librarian/chaplain dreadnoughts. Just dumb. Also why should long fangs have a special ability to split fire that *any* unit should be able to do to. Yep they are long lived...so is every other space marine in any other chapter who is a devastator. Unless killed in battle they are going to be around for quite some time, but can never get good enough with their weapons like long fangs to be able to shoot separate units. Just dumb... Limiting the stormtalon to some, but not all space marine forces would be just as dumb. There is no balance reason to do it. The only reason is to make you stop playing your current favorite army to buy and paint an almost identical army in different colors just so you can use the cool new model...
Skriker
Oh, i agree entirely. Most of the differences in each marine codexes are really, really forced, and could be achieved by a special charcater or two. Blood Angels? Maked Dante a special HQ in vanilla SM, and have him make assault marines troops and replace chapter tactics with furious charge. Then let him take a special honor gaurd that would essentially by death company. Done.
kitch102 wrote:Eh? The scout sergeant decides where a scouts talents will be best placed, so he can be a scout then dev OR assault OR tactical.
Source: eye of vengeance
According to the C:SM entries for those units Devs are seen.as.PA training, a chance to see the galaxy as a Battlebrother. Once they complete that they become assault marines and train.in Melee.
Tac squads need to be flexible so only those who have completed Dev and Assault rounds will be.in one. They are just too important.
As for how long getting to be a Sternguard or Vanguard is, I am not sure. It may be you are put on an honours list and every year they pick 5.people to join the 1st 150 years sounds reasonable. But remember that VV and SV simply choose which type of squad. Those who prefer shooting go Stern, those who prefer melee and have been upgraded from Assault Marine become Vanguard.
As for scout Sgts, I believe they just help with squad placement.
Example
Scout A sucks at melee so after Devs he'll go to Assault Squad 1 because they do a lot of training.
Scout B is.ok at Melee but doesn't like Heavy Weapons so Dev Squad 9 will take him because they are really good at their job.
Generally , it is a good looking craft , but i faced 12 of them in an Apoc game ( yes 12 ) and my Cadians armed with plasma guns shot them all down in the first turn of shooting .......... not a winning propasisiton i lose ONE guardsmen ......to a gets hot roll
loota boy wrote:The same reason that blood angels are the only ones who can field Baal preds, or furioso dreads? Why can only space wolves take long fangs and thunderwolf cavalry? How come only Dark Angels gets Raven wing? Why do Templars have to hog all the neophytes? How come only grey knights have paladins and purifiers?
The codexes are barely different from each other to begin with, that's why. They need every ounce of individualism they can get.
Actually a lot of the special rules that separate the marine chapters are kind of dumb. The only reason we have such stupid limitations and unavailablity to other marine chapters is to make the chapters "unique". All a bunch of crap to make you buy more armies to use all the minis you want to use. The books are written in vaccuums too so that you can't even easily mix and match from the various marine codecies to play the army you want with your friends. Prices vary too widely between the various books. Also the units that are unique to various forces don't all have to be. The death company is an example of a truly unique unit for blood angels. Meanwhile there is just no really good reason for Blood angels to be the only force with access to baal predators, or librarian/chaplain dreadnoughts. Just dumb. Also why should long fangs have a special ability to split fire that *any* unit should be able to do to. Yep they are long lived...so is every other space marine in any other chapter who is a devastator. Unless killed in battle they are going to be around for quite some time, but can never get good enough with their weapons like long fangs to be able to shoot separate units. Just dumb... Limiting the stormtalon to some, but not all space marine forces would be just as dumb. There is no balance reason to do it. The only reason is to make you stop playing your current favorite army to buy and paint an almost identical army in different colors just so you can use the cool new model...
Skriker
BA don't have access to Chaplain Dreads,, they're forge world
And Baal preds are a design that the BA discovered and hid on Baal only sharing it with their own, so why should it be available to ultramarines and their ilk?? (although I agree with you on libby dreads)
Long Fangs SR is stupid but Kelly shouldn't of been given that book to write.
BA don't have access to Chaplain Dreads,, they're forge world And Baal preds are a design that the BA discovered and hid on Baal only sharing it with their own, so why should it be available to ultramarines and their ilk?? (although I agree with you on libby dreads)
Long Fangs SR is stupid but Kelly shouldn't of been given that book to write.
I have to disagree on the not sharing technology bit, Space Marines are Space Marines 1st and foremost. They all share common genetic material (give or take some mutations and organs that work to a better or lesser degree). As a fighting force, they all use the same Weapons, same power armour (in various Mks) and have a common belief in the Emperor and Imperium, to horde technology within a chapter (because say you found the STC of the Assault Cannon ala BA ) and not share is almost heresy, as it is denying your own side weaponry which could turn the tide? Ultramarines do not "OWN" technology, but due to their spawning more chapters than any other and having a stable gene-seed their influence is probably greater. Like the British Armies influence over Commonwealth Armies which have often fallen out of or copied the British Army model rather than say copying the US Model or Soviet one.
The key point I'm making is the differences are often differences, for their own sake. There is no fluffy reason anywhere, why the BA should have "Fast Tanks", they can have the Baal Predator they invented it (unsure why they don't share it?), but I see no reason Doctorinally for the BA to have Fast Tanks. Possibly for the White Scars as it fits their ethos and doctorine, maybe even an upgrade for a Character like Sgt Kronos. Equally I see no real reason why Long Fangs get Fire Control over Signum? It is simply does not make sense and is one of the reasons why moderate players with middle of the road players like me think, why the hell play C:SM, I am outclassed at almost all levels by the build options of BA, SW & GK. Many then cite things like "But you get TFC's and LSS and other stuff", yes I do but I don't get a 5 HWdev squad that can split fire and is cheaper than my Devs for example, there are many, many others. A BA player was telling me my Predators are 20pts cheaper, yep they are, but I would rather have a Baal Predator or one of those lovely Flamestorm cannons, or lots of FNP options, or Assault Squads as Troops, or a group of wild Death Company, or a snippy snippy Talon Dreadnought. This isn't grass is green syndrome, it's an objective look at the options and points costings, and you seriously must be on a different plane of existence if you don't acknowledge that BA, SW & GK are more powerful than even a good list in C:SM.
Just put together my stormtalon. I think it looks awesome and it was actually pretty easy to put together. Overall, I really like this model and am excited to use it.
There was some discussion about what nickname we should give the Stormtalon, I was favoring the Chibi Hawk Jr. but now I think the Flying Flapjack might win my heart.
BA don't have access to Chaplain Dreads,, they're forge world
And Baal preds are a design that the BA discovered and hid on Baal only sharing it with their own, so why should it be available to ultramarines and their ilk?? (although I agree with you on libby dreads)
Long Fangs SR is stupid but Kelly shouldn't of been given that book to write.
I have to disagree on the not sharing technology bit, Space Marines are Space Marines 1st and foremost.
You can disagree all you want, but the fluff doesn't.
BA don't have access to Chaplain Dreads,, they're forge world
And Baal preds are a design that the BA discovered and hid on Baal only sharing it with their own, so why should it be available to ultramarines and their ilk?? (although I agree with you on libby dreads)
Long Fangs SR is stupid but Kelly shouldn't of been given that book to write.
I have to disagree on the not sharing technology bit, Space Marines are Space Marines 1st and foremost.
who owe their loyalty to their Primarch, the emperor and The Imperium.
And dante has tried to appease the ad mech at other points,
And besides it fits their fluff-wise play style. Arguably the White Scars would want them but they don't want a civil war on their hands
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:And besides it fits their fluff-wise play style. Arguably the White Scars would want them but they don't want a civil war on their hands
What part of the White Scars asking the Blood Angels to have access to the baal predator designs would lead to a civil war? Would be helpful if the Emperor weren't just a coma patient in a throne. He would sort everyone out and get everyone back with the "one big happy Imperium" program...but alas he can't so won't.
This new release follows my initial sentiments of the stormraven -- just awful looking. I dont like the clipped wings, the massive missile launcer/lascannon ports hanging off the sides, and the landing gear fixed to the rotating turret??? So it uses the autocannon turrent to land? I think in both instances (stormraven and storm talon) GW had been producing vehicles so long that they forgot how to tank the tank elements out of a flyer....which proved to be detrmental to the design of both of these models. Although, they will never know how grand of a mistake they made....because players and hobbiests alike will swarm stores to buy both. When you have products shoved in your face, eventually you become conditioned to think they look good.....which is what happened to me with the storm raven, and im sure in due time the talon will persuade me to add one to my vanilla marines.
My point on BA was not just Baal Predators, it is the stupid "Fast Tanks" rule.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can disagree all you want, but the fluff doesn't.
The fluff has been written and re-written so many times, it's as leaky as the bible. Fluff can be contradictory or plain ret-conned into line. If not then we wouldn't be seeing all this new Tech like the Storm-Talon...Oh hold on we are technologically stagnant, we've actually had the Storm-Talon for 10,000years but no one thought to mention it until now, so to base everything on being fluff is plain silly. It's even worse when Uber-powered units get fluffed up, so now there are fluffy reasons why the Blood Angels get fast tanks, no one, for one second, questions it?
Hopefully many of the errors over the years will be retconned out I'm talking about "He who shall not be named" additions to Codex's.
@SoloFalcon1138 I don't really like the storm talon, I don't like the "Kewl" 40k approach of lets make 40k into the game we want because it would be "kewler" with apache type gunships and re-write the original fluff to be more correct (re-writing those bit's we didn't like or contradict what we want to do now). If you want to let people run away with the hobby, and encourage codex creep great, but don't think that it's good for competition play or balance. It will always get alot of peoples backs up and when that kind of thing gets vented well it's going to be around gaming tables and Forums.
)
Maybe it'll be my mid-semester project. An hour here and there, and whabam, by the end of the year it's done.
