Yes, I realise I'm regurgitating something from TacoBell (usually it's the other way around), but I figure this one could be important, assuming it is true:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

Its no known exactly what the impetus for this change would be, but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped.

This has had me thinking that fundamentally Privateer Press' model of a pair of annual "omnibus books" that add onto the core game and offer a handful of new units for every faction is superior. In that model, every player of the system has an incentive to buy the new book (because you get new core rules that expand the game), and you get your own new minis to collect for your personal army.

The drawback of course is more books to haul around over the life of an edition until the next rulebook version collates all the current stuff into a single book.

Assuming this is true, it really highlights how GW's approaches everything as if it were a big pendulum, and are incapable of finding a middle ground. Single release cycles, like what we had in 3rd/4th were bad for the reasons stated above - you got your big splash, and then you got nothing for 6-7 years. Wave releases, as conducted by GW, were also bad, as you never knew what was coming, when it was coming and - worst of all - if it was coming. If there was one benefit to the One Release to Release Them All method it's that everything (bar a few special chars) got a model. The wave releases came about during a time when GW was expanding the various unit types available to armies, but even this far down the track there are gaps in the line ups that may never be filled.

The middle ground is takes the "everything gets a model" approach from the One Release method and the "waves" approach from the waves method that gives players a steady stream of releases over the course of the first 24-ish months after their Codex comes out. Everything comes out, so you have a model for everything, but not everything hits at once, maintaining interest over time, and generating more interest as people "join in" during the second, third and fourth waves (for example).

But no. Let's just shove that big 'ol pendulum as hard as we can and put it back on the spash-7 years of nothing-splash method. But that's typical when you think abou it - short term profits over long-term growth is a hallmark of Kirbyland.


And, course, all of the above comments assume the report is true. It could not be.

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over at least for the next 2 or 3 codices from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

Its no known exactly what the impetus for this change would be, but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped.

This has had me thinking that fundamentally Privateer Press' model of a pair of annual "omnibus books" that add onto the core game and offer a handful of new units for every faction is superior. In that model, every player of the system has an incentive to buy the new book (because you get new core rules that expand the game), and you get your own new minis to collect for your personal army.

The drawback of course is more books to haul around over the life of an edition until the next rulebook version collates all the current stuff into a single book.

Fixed that part up for you HBMC, I figure you might've missed it.

So the sky's still falling then feller.

How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

If they want to do more units they do. Ergo the fliers.

There was some speculation that this would be the result of the ongoing chapterhouse lawsuit. And here it is. As usual it doesnt fix any issues we have with GW(except we will KNOW when a unit isnt getting a model), it simply fixes some issues that GW has with us.

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

I'm confused. Did you not read what I posted?

I'm working under the assumption that you can read, and thus have some level of reading comprehension, yes? Therefore, to quote not even myself, but Taco-bell directly:

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

This could be either a very good thing or a bad thing.

Good:
Every army gets something new every so often

Bad:
Will make a lot of units in the codex's "useless" if the new ones are alot better than the older ones.

Could this also mean that codex's may be getting upgraded sooner?

yeah,
This makes sense. release all the units you have models for with the codex.

Hold the codex if needs be.
This has got to be better than seeing all the terribad conversions people come up with because they can't wait for a official release.

H.B.M.C. via bols wrote:"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

GW can keep things interesting add a new unit in WD a year later.

It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Panic...

The bad part I see about this is how some of the codices have been known to stay as they are for sometimes 10 years. If everything gets released with the book, that is something like 8-9 years with little to no interest (WD for example in its current iteration of sell new stuff) shown for the force thus fewer people who would become interested in that faction. In short less reason to add additional units until the book is finally redone a decade later.

Or in the case of some armies, stuck in between advertisements with the same old models from before.

Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

Is this an improvement over what we've got currently? Yes

It is perfect? No.

Is PP's method better? IMO Yes.

Is this GW? Yup

So HBMC hates it? Absolutely.

I prefer this to the "Don't-Tell-em-What's-Coming!" wave system, I must admit, but a middle ground approach would probably work better.

yeah,
Unless the new GW plan enables them to release an army changing unit a year or two later to revitalise the codex.
Like the new necron flying transports...

Something that people can go ooh shiney I'd like to base a army around that.

Panic...

Panic wrote:
It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

This is interesting.

Firstly i would assert that the third party miniatures companies have done nothing but good for the hobby (not to be confused with the HHHobby) choice and competition are always good for any industry.

Secondly. Many places now make Space Marine Alikes with slightly different themes. Pretty sure GW got that style of space marine out first, and the third party industry still makes money out of them. Not releasing a miniature just tends to force players to explore the third party industry until GW releases that mini. See above.

n0t_u wrote:The bad part I see about this is how some of the codices have been known to stay as they are for sometimes 10 years. If everything gets released with the book, that is something like 8-9 years with little to no interest (WD for example in its current iteration of sell new stuff) shown for the force thus fewer people who would become interested in that faction. In short less reason to add additional units until the book is finally redone a decade later.

To be fair, the Codices as they exist now do have many years between them. What this changes is potential interest from new releases (but not necessarily rules) in the interim. Dark Eldar and Necrons are actually two good examples of where wave releases work really well. I think everything in the Necron Codex (barring the odd special char) has a model, and the book wasn't out that long ago. That's the way to maintain interest in an army. Unfortunately you need to start doing this for every army, and treating it like a clock-work schedule of rolling releases, so, to pick some armies and months at random:

Jan: Necrons Codex
Feb: Dwarves book
Mar: Some LOTR crap.
Apr: Space Wolf Codex/Necron 2nd Wave
May: Wood Elf book/Dwarf second wave.
Jun: More LOTR stuff/followup to previous LOTR release.
Jul: Tyranid release/Space Wolf 2nd Wave/Necron 3rd Wave.
Aug: Brettonian book/Woof Elf second wave/Dwarf 3rd Wave.
Sep: LOTR stuff (I may not like it, but I'm not going to pretend it doesn't exist).
Oct: Tau Codex/Tyranid 2nd Wave/Space Wolf 3rd Wave/Necron Final wave.
Nov: Lizardmen book/Brettonian 2nd wave/Woof Eld 3rd Wave/Dwarf final wave.
Dec: Random hobby stuff/terrain/Christmas deals.

Rinse, repeat.

Now that's compressed. I'd probably do that over the course of 24 months, not just a single year, so that everything in a Codex gets a model release within 24 months of the Codex/Army Book hitting shelves. Models would be ready before the Codex goes to print (so they're in the book - never hurts to show what's coming up in your official book). And I wouldn't be afraid of releasing multiple things for multiple lines in one month, the way GW did it in the 90's. Taking an old WD issue at random - issue 197 - that month gave us Dark Elves (army book) and a splash of releases, the original Demolisher, Chief Librarian Tigurius, an Epic release, some Termagant models and a Warhammer Quest expansion. A month needn't be devoted to a single specific part of a single product line.

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing? If they want to do more units they do. Ergo the fliers.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If there was one benefit to the One Release to Release Them All method it's that everything (bar a few special chars) got a model. The wave releases came about during a time when GW was expanding the various unit types available to armies, but even this far down the track there are gaps in the line ups that may never be filled.

Was there ever a point where EVERY unit was available (not counting SCs)??

I've said this before but I'm not really in favour of a policy of GW releasing a model for everything in the Codex. The number of kits released for an army is limited by production factors, but the number of units in a Codex isn't. If the policy is to link the two, then we'll only see shorter, duller codexes, since units will (presumably) not be included unless there is a model kit planned.

We lose nothing by having extra conversion-only units in the codex, we gain versatility and fluff, GW still gets product sales from converters.

I'm all for this. Hope it's true. Sick of codexes releasing with really cool units without models for them, and having to wonder how long it will be before we get a model (if ever).

Panic wrote:It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

More choice is never a bad thing - if GW's product is the best and the other companies are inherently worse ('parasites') then everybody would buy GW, so there wouldn't be a problem?

I'd be happier with the choice of three different possible Tomb Blades, based on which model style I like, compared to only the GW option and everything else declared heresy.

In assembling parts from my Iron Hands, I've bought four or five different 'Armoured Bionic Space Knight' parts from four or five different manufacturers. The army wouldn't look as interesting/varied if I was limited to only the GW options...

This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have). I hope that if they do follow this course, they at keep up the between-codex updates such as the recent Stormtalon and Ork flyers or the Nightspinner to keep things interesting, and do so with greater frequency.

ArbitorIan wrote:Was there ever a point where EVERY unit was available (not counting SCs)??

Necrons 3rd Ed:
Lords
Destroyer Lords
Immortals
Pariahs
Warriors
Scarabs
Destroyers
Wraiths
Tomb Spyders
Heavy Destroyers
Monoliths
C'Tan x2

Tau 3rd Ed:
Crisis Suits
Ethereals
[Shield Drones]
Crisis Suits (as Elites)
Stealth Suits
Fire Warriors
[Drones]
Kroot
[Kroot Hounds]
[Krootox]
[Shapers]
Devilfish
Pathfinders
Drones (in squadrons)
Hammerheads
Broadsides

Tyranids 3rd Ed:
Hive Tyrants
Tyrant Guard
Lictors
Tyranid Warriors
Genestealers
Termagants
Ripper Swarms
Hormagants
Raveners
Gargoyles
Carnifex
Zoanthrope
Biovores
The Red Terror
Old One Eye

Tyranid 4th Ed:
Hive Tyrant
Tyrant Guard
Broodlord
Tyranid Warriors
Lictors
Genestealers
Gaunt Brood
Hormaguant Brood
Ripper Swarms
Raveners
Gargoyles
Spore Mines
Zoanthropes
Biovores
Carnifex

Should I go on? There's more.

Aside from special characters, these are all the unit entries in their respective Codices. I even checked 3rd Ed Marines and found one, the Scout bike... then remembered that it did exist as a metal/plastic hybrid.

If this turns out to be true, then maybe it is to try & stifle third party companies from producing conversion parts or full models, but I doubt it would work, after all, look at the Storm Raven conversion kit from Chapterhouse - it doesn't make a new version, just makes the model look a lot better.

Perhaps though, the real reason is based on the perceived customer behaviour. Maybe they figure if little Johnny isn't going to be in it for long, then release all the shinies at once, get all his (or mum & dads) cash, then who cares? He'll be gone soon, no need to release anything else. For anyone who does stick around longer, they'll get bored with nothing new coming out for years, so start a new army when it's released - or probably according to GW they will anyway.

Certainly have to agree with the 'pendulum' analogy, GW just can't seem to find the m middle ground on anything.

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

All a change like this might mean is that everything they were going to make gets released at the same time, rather than over a period of time. It wouldn't suddenly mean that everything gets a model. So whether you waited two years for a Harpy or got it on the same day the 'Dex was out might mean nothing if they never intended to make a Harpy model in the first place.

H.B.M.C. wrote:--A massive list answering my question--

Necron 3ed
Tau 3d
Tyranid 3ed/4ed

Should I go on? There's more. Aside from special characters, these are all the unit entries in their respective Codices. I even checked 3rd Ed Marines and found one, the Scout bike... then remembered that it did exist as a metal/plastic hybrid.

Fair point. Although both the Necron and Tau 3ed codexes were new and considered very lacking in choice. I think I would have preferred more units, even if they couldn't be released....

And they did. And they all got models!

I mean, even the Eldar eventually got the one thing they were missing - the Wave Serpent. Even the Shining Spears, absent throughout all of 2nd Ed, got a release.

From 3rd Ed through late 4th Ed, GW went out of their way to release models for everything in a Codex (unless you happen to be an Ork Codex, in which case you gak out of luck... and still are!).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

IMO I think they tarnish The 'GW 40k' hobby...
Some of their sculpts are ok.. most are rubbish, if they had half a back bone they would just make thier own games and fan base.
like zombicide or sedation wars or super dungeon explore.

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Pushing the concept further they are basically counterfeiters, they take the shine off the official releases before and after it launches and directly impacting sales. Taking money that GW deserves and that could have be reinvested into the hobby...
for example Sales of the official tervigon may have been damaged by chaperhouses and GW may have decided to invest less in tryanids in the future.


Panic...

Typical GW... Stop something just as they were starting to get it right.

The Wave releases have worked fine with the last few codices. - Blood Angels, Necrons, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights.

As far as I can think off hand, barring some special characters (which has been mentioned), every major model has been released for them.

Crazy GW, just crazy...

This is the exact opposite approach I would take if I was GW. At the moment, we hear of releases being delayed so they can be synchronised with similar releases to form waves. Rather than delay things further to form bigger waves (consisting of everything for this army including the codex), I would get the models and the books on sale as soon as they're ready.

Panic wrote:

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Seeing as G.W. simply "leeched" off of J.R.R. Tolkein, Frank Herbert and Robert A. Heinlein's IP, I'm not losing any sleep when other companies ape them.

I'm probably one of the few who is looking forward to this, if it is true of course, don't trust those Bell lot one bit. Back then when the 4th edition Guard codex was released you had all your releases in one go, stretched out over a month, with half coming out at the start of the month, the rest two weeks after that, allowing GW to neatly fill a month of releases.

yeah,

Oakenshield wrote:
Seeing as G.W. simply "leeched" off of J.R.R. Tolkein, Frank Herbert and Robert A. Heinlein's IP, I'm not losing any sleep when other companies ape them.

I think everyone has alot more respect for Mantic and PP...
We can all have marines in space! or some other monster bash...

I don't even have a issue with companies releasing generic 3rd party add ons.
I love alot of the extra heads and weapons and arms out there. from companies like pig iron.
something extra to spice up you models is great.

But as always someone will get greedy and take the piss.

Panic...

Panic wrote:IMO I think they tarnish The 'GW 40k' hobby...

Sorry. I don't know what that is. I know that 40K is a miniature-based wargame, one of many hundreds across the world. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a hobby in and of itself though.


And yes, before you say it I am being facetious and I do know exactly what you're getting at. I just reject it as a truthful notion entirely. There is now "GW hobby". There is simply a hobby that GW plays a role in (a large role, to be sure, but just a role).

Panic wrote:Some of their sculpts are ok.. most are rubbish

Ok, that's great, but it's also personal opinion. It's one thing to say "Your minis are crap". It's another to say "Your minis are crap and you're a parasite!". I don't like most of what Chapterhouse does, especially a lot of their early stuff, things like malformed asymmetrical thunder hammers, ugly shoulder pads with chunky details and so on. I also don't like their Tervigon kit.

I don't buy those things because I don't like them, not because of any intrinsic moral 'value' over the IP.

I'll use a couple of Puppet's War examples:

Would you classify this as parasitical? As something that 'tarnishes' the hobby? What about these? Now, up until a week ago I hadn't seen new Wraiths in person, and I didn't really like them (my opinion has since changed - I didn't realise just how big they are!), but I really like the models in the second link, enough that I would use them as alternative Wraiths.

As others have said, I don't think choice is a bad thing. I built an AdMech army out of Iron Brotherhood models. I've converted Flagellants into Redemptionists with heads from Tabletop Art and turned my Warboss and Nobs into pirates. Are these companies parasites? Really?

Panic wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

IMO I think they tarnish The 'GW 40k' hobby...
Some of their sculpts are ok.. most are rubbish, if they had half a back bone they would just make thier own games and fan base.
like zombicide or sedation wars or super dungeon explore.

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Pushing the concept further they are basically counterfeiters, they take the shine off the official releases before and after it launches and directly impacting sales. Taking money that GW deserves and that could have be reinvested into the hobby...
for example Sales of the official tervigon may have been damaged by chaperhouses and GW may have decided to invest less in tryanids in the future.


Panic...

But the reverse is also true (if anything MORE common) in that we now have choice. If i dont like GW's tervigon, i can grab another. Same for thunderwolves and space marines. Most companies would up their game and produce better cheaper miniatures to compete. Competition is always better for the consumer. (GW just has to realise they have competition)

Jayce_The_Ace wrote:If this turns out to be true, then maybe it is to try & stifle third party companies from producing conversion parts or full models, but I doubt it would work, after all, look at the Storm Raven conversion kit from Chapterhouse - it doesn't make a new version, just makes the model look a lot better.

Perhaps though, the real reason is based on the perceived customer behaviour. Maybe they figure if little Johnny isn't going to be in it for long, then release all the shinies at once, get all his (or mum & dads) cash, then who cares? He'll be gone soon, no need to release anything else. For anyone who does stick around longer, they'll get bored with nothing new coming out for years, so start a new army when it's released - or probably according to GW they will anyway.

Certainly have to agree with the 'pendulum' analogy, GW just can't seem to find the m middle ground on anything.

IF they are doing this, this would be the reason why I imagine. There were plenty of thunderwolves out there for a long time and one guy I knew spent over $200 getting indie manufacturer ones that looked great. Not to mention those tyranid drop pods too, though I'm not sure if we even have proper models for them right now.

Either way I'm in favor of this. I rarely buy new models to "try" them when they're finally released. I usually just proxy the things that there aren't models for and buy new stuff as I add variety to my army or discover new cheese metagame. New CSM mechanic demon engine flyer dragon thing on day 1? Yes please.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes, I realise I'm regurgitating something from TacoBell (usually it's the other way around), but I figure this one could be important, assuming it is true:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

Its no known exactly what the impetus for this change would be, but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped.

This has had me thinking that fundamentally Privateer Press' model of a pair of annual "omnibus books" that add onto the core game and offer a handful of new units for every faction is superior. In that model, every player of the system has an incentive to buy the new book (because you get new core rules that expand the game), and you get your own new minis to collect for your personal army.

The drawback of course is more books to haul around over the life of an edition until the next rulebook version collates all the current stuff into a single book.

Assuming this is true, it really highlights how GW's approaches everything as if it were a big pendulum, and are incapable of finding a middle ground. Single release cycles, like what we had in 3rd/4th were bad for the reasons stated above - you got your big splash, and then you got nothing for 6-7 years. Wave releases, as conducted by GW, were also bad, as you never knew what was coming, when it was coming and - worst of all - if it was coming. If there was one benefit to the One Release to Release Them All method it's that everything (bar a few special chars) got a model. The wave releases came about during a time when GW was expanding the various unit types available to armies, but even this far down the track there are gaps in the line ups that may never be filled.

The middle ground is takes the "everything gets a model" approach from the One Release method and the "waves" approach from the waves method that gives players a steady stream of releases over the course of the first 24-ish months after their Codex comes out. Everything comes out, so you have a model for everything, but not everything hits at once, maintaining interest over time, and generating more interest as people "join in" during the second, third and fourth waves (for example).

But no. Let's just shove that big 'ol pendulum as hard as we can and put it back on the spash-7 years of nothing-splash method. But that's typical when you think abou it - short term profits over long-term growth is a hallmark of Kirbyland.


And, course, all of the above comments assume the report is true. It could not be.

Look likes new BUSINESS STRATEGY is to get all models in one shot to stop GW gamers buying cheaper alternatives once they get feed up with waiting TO GW release it.
Like It!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

But... for example:

Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

This spreads out the expenses and you get new stuff periodically, so you have something to look forward to, but you don't know what and when something is coming.

There is annoyance when you want a certain something in your army, but there is no model for it. You'd have to convert (which not everyone is good at) and often spend extra money since most people buy the "official" models too if/when they are released by GW later.


Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

You know exactly where you stand, and you can plan your spending all the way.

Having everything released at once doesn't mean you actually (have to/are able to) buy everything at once. You can still buy 6 kits/blisters in september and buy 4 more in march. The difference is that you have the choice.

GW even kind of shoots itself in the foot, because all the best codex options will be sold first and the bad ones will not sell as good. Right now, in situation A, for example 3 good codex options are initially released and 3 mediocre ones. People still buy the mediocre ones too because they are new shinies. In situation B you can pick the best 6 out of the entire 14 straight away.

This in turn might maybe lead to less mediocre/bad codex options because I assume they want to actually sell their models (probably wishful thinking, I know).

All in all I really do prefer situation B because I think the positives outweigh the negatives by far. I like to have as much choice as possible and I want to plan my spending as much as possible.

And btw, most people have multiple armies anyway, so they will keep buying things regularly. That is just how it is. Situation B probably gives even more incentive to start new armies too, so it is simply better for business if you are GW.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over at least for the next 2 or 3 codices from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

Fixed that part up for you HBMC, I figure you might've missed it.

Chaos Space Marines released: Everything out at once.

Dark Angels released: Everything out at once.

Smurf Marines released: Everything out at once.

Eldar or Tau released: Sudden change back to the wave system, something hugely interesting to players like Harlequin Solitaire, Exodites, or Orca Dropship on hold for years.

Seriously irritated with GW's release methods for product. The last time there was something to motivate me to go into a GW store, Phantom Lord's off topic board was still active.

Pushing the concept further they are basically counterfeiters, they take the shine off the official releases before and after it launches and directly impacting sales. Taking money that GW deserves and that could have be reinvested into the hobby...

GW doesn't "deserve" anything. They write rules as advertisement for their models. If they decide to drag their feet on releasing something there's nothing wrong with players finding a subsitute. Saying we're obligated to buy GW models to play the game is like saying you're obligated to buy the manufacturer's ink when you're refilling your printer.

TBD wrote:Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

Situation B would be "Codex release in August 2013", not September 2012.

yeah,
@H.B.M.C. I think it's odd that puppets want to release fancy razorback turrets and sell to GWs customers. They are not FW.
Why not invent your own tanks and game and sell those.
Once you have your game out there and selling it If people want those turrets for their army they'll have them anyway.

But I have no real issue with buying non GW models and parts to convert up a model.
The leader of my grot army rides a 3rd party track unit because it's cool...
What's the matter with you? never seen a hypocrite before??


I think IMO it's very easy to see when someone is trying to cut in on someone elses IP and consumer base.
And I find it shamefull.

---

With codex releases
I'd like to see new codexs take the existing units and tweak almost all of them.
Once all existing units are buffed/nerfed to the benifit of everyone add a few units that are both sexy but also more importantly open up new army builds.

ArbitorIan wrote:I've said this before but I'm not really in favour of a policy of GW releasing a model for everything in the Codex. The number of kits released for an army is limited by production factors, but the number of units in a Codex isn't. If the policy is to link the two, then we'll only see shorter, duller codexes, since units will (presumably) not be included unless there is a model kit planned.

We lose nothing by having extra conversion-only units in the codex, we gain versatility and fluff, GW still gets product sales from converters.

Converters gonna Convert...
They dont need unreleased units to do that, just something the don't like, like the ork buggy.
Or a unique unit/army idea... (omg wont a Men in Black imperial guard army look cool!!!)

If the majority of the new codex is new fluff and rules tweaks then the codex cylce can be done quicker.
With surprise releases like the ork bombers/ SM talon/ night spinner.

Holding onto some units also wont really hurt a codex. imagine if the necron scythes were never in the codex... it would have still been an excellent codex, but since we would have no idea they were coming the refreshing new units would bring life to the codex again.

then in three years (shorter cycle... I can dream) both codexs are renewed and the scythe/bomber/talon/spinner are now included in the codex plus everythings tweaked again (to balance the meta game??) plus two or three new units.

Panic...

BBC News wrote:...Games Workshop's executives say they don't do media interviews, preferring to focus on their hobbyists. But CEO Mark Wells e-mails me about the claim of price exploitation. "That would go against everything we stand for. It's just not in our nature," he writes.

AlexHolker wrote:

TBD wrote:Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

Situation B would be "Codex release in August 2013", not September 2012.

The OP said "once 6th is released".

If 6th is released at the end of this month I doubt it will take them more than a year to release the next codex

whatever the reason for this new strategy, I approve. It could even speed up the turnover of armies - instead of having a month allocated to "Space Marine Finecast releases" or "Tyranid wave 3", everything can just come out with the codex, freeing up the schedule - because GW would never let a month go by with nothing to release.

Feel kind of sorry for the store staff though, a new army release is normally a time for hectic rearranging and trying to find space for all the new stuff, add to that the fact you have to squeeze in a whole new range as well as store the old/replaced stock out back..it's gonna get messy.

As for third parties, I like 'em. GW are the ones who decided that they'd release a codex (several, in fact) with major options outright missing from the range, what the hell did they expect would happen? people would wait around until GW's decreed time of Tervigonning? Any idiot could have forseen that people would make their own, and might sell those to others. Welcome to capitalism, GW, this is how it works - you create demand for something, and don't supply? someone else will, and then you're going to arrive late to a market you created.

This is a side effect of the whole GW Hobby nonsense, a particularly insidious form of corporate groupthink that convinces people that GW exists in a vacuum: GW games being played using GW models painted by GW paints and nobody else can encroach upon this magnificent bubble universe. Why bother factoring in third party actions? other miniature companies won't be making Triarch Stalkers or Tervigons or Tomb Blades because they are not The GW and therefore how could they affect The GW Hobby?

But oh, wait, they have, and people are buying them, and we have no contingency because none of us are familiar with the concept of Free Market Economics...

By and large, the GW versions of units where there were third party versions available have been excellent anyway. the tervigon's great, the Triarch stalker is fantastic (and also MASSIVE, I don't think any of the 3rd party versions correctly estimated the scale). the Tomb blades are ok - I don't like the GW or the puppets war versions, so I cant really judge there, and the Canoptek constructs are fantastic.

You win a market by either being First, Cheapest or Best. GW could easily be First and Best by dropping the wave strategy, and the only reason they haven't been First is due to a situation of their own making (And they're still doing it! Forgeworld are no longer selling the MkIIb Land Raider kit, making the Chapterhouse one the only version on the market).

As long as they can keep a reasonable release schedule, I'd be happy with this. As for now, I am not terribly impressed by the White Dwarf releases.

Panic wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

Pushing the concept further they are basically counterfeiters, they take the shine off the official releases before and after it launches and directly impacting sales. Taking money that GW deserves and that could have be reinvested into the hobby...
for example Sales of the official tervigon may have been damaged by chaperhouses and GW may have decided to invest less in tryanids in the future.

Please, as if GW is the victim in all of this. If they had bothered to release the Tyranid waves in a timely manner then the whole Tervigon thing could've been avoided. But no, GW decided to leave out a somewhat important unit without a model for their codex for approx 2 years after it's release (same goes for TWC) then the result is inevitable. You don't need to be some kind of expert in business to see that.

Thing is, GW has shown they are capable of releasing units from a codex in a timely manner (ref. DE and Necrons), being able to keep a customer interested in the army for a good length of time.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

In my opinion, it beats it by a mile.

TBD wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

TBD wrote:Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

Situation B would be "Codex release in August 2013", not September 2012.

The OP said "once 6th is released".

If 6th is released at the end of this month I doubt it will take them more than a year to release the next codex

Alex's point was that if everything for an army has to be released together, this will mean that the entire release will be delayed until every single kit is finished.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

I'm confused. Did you not read what I posted?

I'm working under the assumption that you can read, and thus have some level of reading comprehension, yes? Therefore, to quote not even myself, but Taco-bell directly:

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

Clearly reading is more of an issue for you, but don't let that stop you. We all know how you like to control things while holding court.

My point (I thought that it was clear) was that having all units available for that 6-7 year period will allow you to fully play that army for that hole period. If you want half now, with a bit later and maybe if we decide its the right time the last bit in X years you only seem to be perpetuating the notion that there is deliberately limited value in each codex. Having every thing from the get go seems like the ideal solution, though I do note ArbitratorIans very good point on production possibly impacting on codex options. That said unless it is a brand new army then most options will have been created, I would suggest it is more likely to result in existing kits being reused.

TBD wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

But... for example:

Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

This spreads out the expenses and you get new stuff periodically, so you have something to look forward to, but you don't know what and when something is coming.

There is annoyance when you want a certain something in your army, but there is no model for it. You'd have to convert (which not everyone is good at) and often spend extra money since most people buy the "official" models too if/when they are released by GW later.


Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

You know exactly where you stand, and you can plan your spending all the way.

Having everything released at once doesn't mean you actually (have to/are able to) buy everything at once. You can still buy 6 kits/blisters in september and buy 4 more in march. The difference is that you have the choice.

GW even kind of shoots itself in the foot, because all the best codex options will be sold first and the bad ones will not sell as good. Right now, in situation A, for example 3 good codex options are initially released and 3 mediocre ones. People still buy the mediocre ones too because they are new shinies. In situation B you can pick the best 6 out of the entire 14 straight away.

This in turn might maybe lead to less mediocre/bad codex options because I assume they want to actually sell their models (probably wishful thinking, I know).

All in all I really do prefer situation B because I think the positives outweigh the negatives by far. I like to have as much choice as possible and I want to plan my spending as much as possible.

And btw, most people have multiple armies anyway, so they will keep buying things regularly. That is just how it is. Situation B probably gives even more incentive to start new armies too, so it is simply better for business if you are GW.

Ah, this basically. Well said.

yeah,

Lordhat wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

In my opinion, it beats it by a mile.

Agreed I'm looking forward to seeing how this release schedule works out.

,

Grimtuff wrote:... GW decided to leave out a somewhat important unit without a model for their codex for approx 2 years after it's release (same goes for TWC) then the result is inevitable. You don't need to be some kind of expert in business to see that...

I agree, If you leave your self open to parasites then you shouldn't be surprised when they start to suck on your blood and irritate you.

At least now it looks like GW is starting to cut them off.

Panic...

I like the idea of releasing all the models they are making for a codex all at once, for several reasons. First, you can save up for one big purchase and get everything you want all in one go.

More importantly, to me though, you know for sure when it's "safe" to buy 3rd party alternate models or scratchbuild your own. So long did I straddle the fence on the Puppetswar wraiths, on the Cylon raider, etc because I didn't know when or even IF GWS was ever going to release a model. So that will be done.

I'd prefer, much like the flyers release, that they release a few new models now and then with their rules being up in a copy of White Dwarf which will sell out almost immediately and make illegal scans the most reliable source for free on their website, like FW does with their experimental rules. Seems like it works for FW, right?

lord_blackfang wrote:

TBD wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

TBD wrote:Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

Situation B would be "Codex release in August 2013", not September 2012.

The OP said "once 6th is released".

If 6th is released at the end of this month I doubt it will take them more than a year to release the next codex

Alex's point was that if everything for an army has to be released together, this will mean that the entire release will be delayed until every single kit is finished.

I understand, but I don't think that will be a problem.

A lot of new models (BT, Tau, etc) are said to already be waiting in the warehouses until new rulebooks are finished. GW isn't going to have months go by without releasing new models, so this new strategy would imply that new models' release comes with a new book also.

notprop wrote:So the sky's still falling then feller.

How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

If they want to do more units they do. Ergo the fliers.

As far as H.B.M.C. is concerned, the sky is always falling. The sky always has to be falling, because if it isn't, then the real disaster kicks in, and we don't want to know what that may be. So just leave him in the corner, wringing his hands and occasionally toss him a hankie.

lord_blackfang wrote:

TBD wrote:The OP said "once 6th is released".

If 6th is released at the end of this month I doubt it will take them more than a year to release the next codex

Alex's point was that if everything for an army has to be released together, this will mean that the entire release will be delayed until every single kit is finished.

That's correct, thank you. GW has two choices: move lagging releases forwards or push initial releases back. The former requires an improved development and production cycle, the latter only requires that they sit on things for longer. So all else being equal, I'd expect to see the latter, not the former.

Charax wrote:
You win a market by either being First, Cheapest or Best. GW could easily be First and Best by dropping the wave strategy, and the only reason they haven't been First is due to a situation of their own making (And they're still doing it! Forgeworld are no longer selling the MkIIb Land Raider kit, making the Chapterhouse one the only version on the market).

Eh? The FW MKIIb kit is still available

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Red_Scorpions/MkIIb-LAND-RAIDER.html

AlexHolker wrote:GW has two choices: move lagging releases forwards or push initial releases back. The former requires an improved development and production cycle, the latter only requires that they sit on things for longer. So all else being equal, I'd expect to see the latter, not the former.

There's also a third choice, as ArbitorIan mentions: Kit not going to be done in time? Drop it from the codex.

ah, must have just been a glitch when I tried to look then

The parasitical nature of 3rd party bitz makers, or not, probably deserves it's own thread, which is here.

I do not understand. How is "release everything with the codex" bad for players?

Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped.

It's the same amount of models, only all at once, not spread across the years. If you like waves so much, just buy half of the models when codex drops, then wait a year, buy 2 more types of units, then wait another year, etc. Or this is totally impossible and you need GW to rule you and in the darkness bind you to achieve this schedule?

Personally I thought for a while that on some point GW should stop the waves thing, because it should cost them significant money having more and more 3rd-party companies jumping in with "cyber beetles", "cyber anthropods" and other such replacements for their foolishly missing codex entries.

yeah,

lord_blackfang wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:GW has two choices: move lagging releases forwards or push initial releases back. The former requires an improved development and production cycle, the latter only requires that they sit on things for longer. So all else being equal, I'd expect to see the latter, not the former.

There's also a third choice, as ArbitorIan mentions: Kit not going to be done in time? Drop it from the codex.

... and release it in WD a year later.

Panic...

I'd question whether GW even can release everything at once. That would mean roughly doubling the amount of new plastic kits for every army release, which is a non-trivial change.

And what about all the armies who still have holes in them going into 6E? Can we expect no Void Raven or Colossus until those army books get remade, presumably sometime in the early 20s?

My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.

No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.

Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

yeah,

scarletsquig wrote:My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.
No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.
Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

I can see the rules appearing first in WD and a month later appearing on the website.
ala the Night Spinner

Panic...

Online rules updates would be great, but I don't see it happening for a game marketed towards 12-year olds.

lord_blackfang wrote:Online rules updates would be great, but I don't see it happening for a game marketed towards 12-year olds.

Oh, I don't know about that. Today's 12-year-olds are more at home online than the grognards of the 20th century. Then again, GW itself isn't. A company that has to shut down its own forums because too many people were saying bad things about them.... awww, diddums

Gogogo new (severely nerfed) GK codex!

Seriously though, if GW decides to force me buying a new codex every so often...

Yohoho, .pdf it is.

The only failure of the waves of releases is GW's other big failure, a failure to communicate.

warpcrafter wrote:As far as H.B.M.C. is concerned, the sky is always falling. The sky always has to be falling, because if it isn't, then the real disaster kicks in, and we don't want to know what that may be. So just leave him in the corner, wringing his hands and occasionally toss him a hankie.

It's cool that the best you can do is insult me. It might be better to stay on topic... but that might just be my opinion.

Don't let me stop you though. Carry on attempting to turn this into something about me.

I prefer the new system, and I think is even better to GW.

If you release 2 units, I buy 2 units. Then you release another 2, so I buy another 2 different units: 4 in total.
If you release 4 units at once, I buy 3. Then, after two years, I feel I want to paint more, so I buy another 2 or 3. So, 5 or 6 in total. Everybody wins: I can choose from the beginning, and they sell more (at least to me).

And there is a good point for us painters and players: we have codices with pictures of many units, not just the initial wave. Every time I look at my CSM codex, I wish I could have some plastic daemon prince pictures, but no... there is just metal one.

I think this is a really good idea. imo If everything has either pics in the codex or is reliesed with the codex. I can start to plan what I want to add to my existing army or plan a new army, knowing what i can get from GW, and knowing if I need to convert or look elsewhere for anything in the book I want to use but I know there will never be a model.
JUST because its reliesed doesnt mean I have the money to spoff on the day its reliesed but knowing its there i can add at my leasure.

For me this is the right direction to take

scarletsquig wrote:My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.

No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.

Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

To be honest, this is a great thing for me. Why bother with the waiting ? Yeah, this mean you'll maybe get nothing for the next seven or eight year, but seriously, who buy a codex, read it and thinks Oh I'm so excited to wait for years before finally having these models I've read about but that GW was to lazy to make !
When I buy a codex or an army book, and that I'm not good at making conversion or doesn't want to spend money for it, I want all my units and characters to have their models to be avaible for me. The hobby is already expensive enough, I think we deserve not to have to wait for the models, even more since GW never tell us when they are to be released except two weeks prior. Seriously, there is nothing worse (or almost) than waiting without having an idea of how long you will wait. We already have hospitals for that.

It will be interesting to see if this rumor is true.

It would be a big change for GW, and would indicate to me that they are hurting.

ArbitorIan wrote:

scarletsquig wrote:My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.

No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.

Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

The harm is if the units not available as models are some of the good units that the army really needs.

Thinking specifically about Tyranids, the missing units were Tervigon, Spore Pod and Tyrannofex (possibly a couple of others). Tervigon and Spod are very important units, Tyrannofex less so.

For myself, I just substituted non-GW Models and I expect a lot of other players did too. That didn't help GW at all.

6-7 years between releases? I play Dark Eldar, Sororitas and Wood elves! Ask your Grandpa if he remembers the last Wood Elf release!

"Dad, when will I get new miniatures for my army?" "Ask me again when you are married, son."

Does not releasing new miniatures for 7-11 years hinder other companies to do it in the meantime? No. And given the lack of feedback loops for sculpting (Dreadknight, Storm Raven, Tomb Blades), there will always be a market for alternatives.

Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

Kilkrazy wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:
I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

The harm is if the units not available as models are some of the good units that the army really needs.

Thinking specifically about Tyranids, the missing units were Tervigon, Spore Pod and Tyrannofex (possibly a couple of others). Tervigon and Spod are very important units, Tyrannofex less so.

How would it be any less harmful if those units didn't exist in the Codex at all?

Personally I've never been all that bothered with the splash-long wait-splash method, but I have so many armies and never use the same list twice, so that puts me in the minority here. For others who only have one army, or are heavily into the tournament scene, I could see it breeding sterility.

Yeah, I know, 'breeding sterility'.

spaceelf wrote:It would be a big change for GW, and would indicate to me that they are hurting.

How d'ya figure that?

TBD wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

But... for example:

Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

This spreads out the expenses and you get new stuff periodically, so you have something to look forward to, but you don't know what and when something is coming.

There is annoyance when you want a certain something in your army, but there is no model for it. You'd have to convert (which not everyone is good at) and often spend extra money since most people buy the "official" models too if/when they are released by GW later.


Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

You know exactly where you stand, and you can plan your spending all the way.

Having everything released at once doesn't mean you actually (have to/are able to) buy everything at once. You can still buy 6 kits/blisters in september and buy 4 more in march. The difference is that you have the choice.

GW even kind of shoots itself in the foot, because all the best codex options will be sold first and the bad ones will not sell as good. Right now, in situation A, for example 3 good codex options are initially released and 3 mediocre ones. People still buy the mediocre ones too because they are new shinies. In situation B you can pick the best 6 out of the entire 14 straight away.

This in turn might maybe lead to less mediocre/bad codex options because I assume they want to actually sell their models (probably wishful thinking, I know).

All in all I really do prefer situation B because I think the positives outweigh the negatives by far. I like to have as much choice as possible and I want to plan my spending as much as possible.

And btw, most people have multiple armies anyway, so they will keep buying things regularly. That is just how it is. Situation B probably gives even more incentive to start new armies too, so it is simply better for business if you are GW.

This^^^

All this means now is that you get to choose what to buy when the release is made. The only downside is that you could end up waiting a wee bit longer for your codex release while they try and get the mini's all together.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

All a change like this might mean is that everything they were going to make gets released at the same time, rather than over a period of time. It wouldn't suddenly mean that everything gets a model. So whether you waited two years for a Harpy or got it on the same day the 'Dex was out might mean nothing if they never intended to make a Harpy model in the first place.

Absolutely beats the wave system.

I dislike using third party options for majoy models. Bits and peices are fine, but when I only have the option of a third party model because I not only don't know what the GW model might look like, but that it might not even get a release, I get really irked off. The only reason I didn't end up with chapterhouse carnifexes with boobs was because financially I couldn't do it. Now there's a fantastic Tervigon and I don't have to, but I was seriously considering it (and the puppets war Tyrannofex).

Buying a codex, and while not seeing everthing right away, at least seeing pictures of the models in the codex means I can plan my purchases without needing to figure out if I can get a proxy model somewhere else.

I can see it hurting people that go out and buy a 3000pt army in a week then have nothing else to buy, but really, those people would be using third party models for stuff they couldn't get right away anyway, so wouldn't be buying many future releases.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'd question whether GW even can release everything at once. That would mean roughly doubling the amount of new plastic kits for every army release, which is a non-trivial change.

I don't think it's a matter of ability. I think it's a matter of time. Shifting production like this is possible, it just won't happen overnight. It will mean a longer delay - at least initially - between the current wave method and the new splash method, but once that method is up and running it should roll over normally.

TBD wrote:But... for example:

Situation A)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 6 new kits/blisters
- Wave release in march 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters
- wave release in august 2013 = 4 new kits/blisters

This spreads out the expenses...

Situation B)

- Codex release in september 2012 + 14 new kits/blisters

You know exactly where you stand, and you can plan your spending all the way...

My biggest concern with the wave release was never when something was going to come out, but if something was going to come out. For a while every army was like the Orks have always been - a Codex full of units and no real clue if something that wasn't released immediately was ever going to get a kit. I mean even basic examples, like the Chibi-Hawk, didn't come out for a while. It was highly probable that a model would come out, but we didn't know for sure. They say that knowing is half the battle. In GW's case, not knowing is the other half. It would suck to really like a unit only to find out that it ain't ever getting a model.

I don't want to go back to 2nd Ed, where you never knew when or if something was coming out. GW's wave system almost - almost - got us there again. The splash system removes that problem (or I'd hope it would - assuming they take a 'every Codex entry gets a model kit' approach, even if that involves modular/dual kits), but comes with its own problems of line stagnation. How important line stagnation is to you is a matter of personal opinion though.

I know I'd rather get every option all at once than wait two+ years for a linchpin unit of my codex to get released. I fail to see how it's a bad thing. If GW wants to redo a model later on they can, and if they want to add a brand new unit then they can give White Dwarf a shade of usefulness and include it in there. The lines will stagnate to a degree, but it's better than wondering if and when something's coming like we do now.

Interesting.....has good and bad points if true.

Personally, I would like to see a wave over a few months to run with WD with the initial release being one big army box with everything in it for all the people that don't want to wait or who just like buying stuff.

Charax wrote: But oh, wait, they have, and people are buying them, and we have no contingency because none of us are familiar with the concept of Free Market Economics...

Think I'll cast my own Iron Man model. You know, Marvel can't really have a problem with this since I'm operating under "free market economics".

To clarrify, even if Marvel did have a character from their IP that they didn't make a model of, it doesn't mean that any other Tom, Dick or Harry can make one instead without Marvel's permission. Sure they can release something "similar" but if you call it by the name Iron Man and he's red and yellow in a metal suit, then you're probably gonna get sued.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimtuff wrote: Please, as if GW is the victim in all of this. If they had bothered to release the Tyranid waves in a timely manner then the whole Tervigon thing could've been avoided. But no, GW decided to leave out a somewhat important unit without a model for their codex for approx 2 years after it's release (same goes for TWC) then the result is inevitable. You don't need to be some kind of expert in business to see that.

Thing is, GW has shown they are capable of releasing units from a codex in a timely manner (ref. DE and Necrons), being able to keep a customer interested in the army for a good length of time.

Sorry, but this doesn't change the fact that if you make a character and it's your intellectual property then no-one else can use that character without your permission. Like I said above, I can't go around making figure men of Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye, Spiderman, etc, etc, without Marvel getting a lawsuit together. Legally it's just not allowed. From what I heard, Chapterhouse, used the name Tervigon to sell their kits, which as we all know is what GW assigned to their characteristic IP. Morally you might not have a problem with it, but legally GW are OK here with what they did and they didn't do anything different from what any other company does. And that is protect their IP.

Bacms wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

Or it shows that Codexes will not be getting alot of new kits on release. At this point, most Codexes have most options, so when you discount what is already available, what are you left with? New options, which there may only be 3 or 4 of. Lets look at the last major release, Fantasy Empire. Everything from the army book (bar a character or two, I think) was available on release. But how many 'new' things were there? Just the usual amount.

I wonder if GW will end up doing less codex/army book releases and spread them over a 6-8 week period instead?

That makes sense to me.

Also - are there any armies out there that need a complete model overhaul? Most armies (Sisters aside) have the basics already in place. I can't imagine new Ork boys or basic Marines released with the next Codex. The focus will be on new stuff. Which, for most armies, isn't going to be a lot.

Tau, Chaos, Eldar, Sister are probably the most difficult armies right now - because of the amount of kits involved that need updating.

scarletsquig wrote:My opinion is that the best approach to this is not release rules until the model is available.

No harm in releasing the new rules in White Dwarf *and as a free internet download* once it's out.

Of course, knowing GW they would screw that up completely, refuse to put the rules online because "harm white dwarf sales blah blah blah" and we'd all be left scrabbling around for 2-year old copies of white dwarfs if we want to field a model. We already had that situation occur in 3rd edition. :p

They already include apocalypse formations in WD, so I'm in favour of this to be honest. It will even pick up WD sales and actually give people a reason to buy it since its pretty much lacking nowadays.

I'm also not seeing a downside to this.

Unless this is just another, "OMG I hate anything and everything GW does" type deal?

If there is "nothing to buy" until the next codex is release, then I am relieved. This will actually make maintaining two or three different armies easier, imo.

ArbitorIan wrote: I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

Hopefully they would make them available for download on there site. Of course whether they do that or not is a different question, but it would be a good way to solve this problem. Also you could just attach a few sheets with your codex and it wouldn't take up too much space. Like I said above though, I could see them doing the WD thing since they already release apocalypse formations using WD.

I already have enough problems convincing my opponents that my Q-workshop dice are fair and that my printed FAQs aren't forged. Not looking forward to printing new rules off the website.

Oakenshield wrote:

Panic wrote:

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Seeing as G.W. simply "leeched" off of J.R.R. Tolkein, Frank Herbert and Robert A. Heinlein's IP, I'm not losing any sleep when other companies ape them.

I'm not defending GW per se, but your analogy is a big stretch:

1. I think GW's insistance on putting out the LOTR game speaks to their respect for Tolkien's work. They didnt put out a knok-off game called "Master of the rings" which is the equivilant of what many of the 3rd parties do...

2. Being inspired by tropes and concepts and using them to write the background/look of a game setting that you then make original design models for is far different then someone hiding in the shadows trying to put out knock-off versions of those exact designs (copyrighted products) before the parent company does...

I don't really care enough either way to get hot and bothered over it personally, but a I stated: your assertion is a HUGE stretch...

Bacms wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

Really? I thought that it would just mean that we'd get less new models in the Codex in the first place.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:

Bacms wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

Really? I thought that it would just mean that we'd get less new models in the Codex in the first place.

That's not a bad thing. Codices and army books are so bloated right now, there's already redundant units in them. The problem of GW being a miniatures company instead of a game company, they need new models in the book every edition. Books that had a release in 4th edition didn't need new units in 5th. Books that got a release in 5th not only don't need new units in 6th, but some could stand to lose a few as well. Books that have had a release every edition are getting ridiculous. This is where balancing issues tend to crop up, since the newer unit that made an old unit redundant tends to be a bargain simply to sell the model to people that already have the older model (good example - the Trygon and the Carnifex).

Not getting as many units on release, but getting them all? Yes please.

CT GAMER wrote:

Oakenshield wrote:

Panic wrote:

But nope they just hang on to GWs IP - They are Leaches, and once you add to the fact that most of their sculpts are terrible.
They flood the market and forums a month or two before the official model so it's easy to see how they tarnish the hobby.

Seeing as G.W. simply "leeched" off of J.R.R. Tolkein, Frank Herbert and Robert A. Heinlein's IP, I'm not losing any sleep when other companies ape them.

I'm not defending GW per se, but your analogy is a big stretch:

1. I think GW's insistance on putting out the LOTR game speaks to their respect for Tolkien's work. They didnt put out a knok-off game called "Master of the rings" which is the equivilant of what many of the 3rd parties do...

2. Beign inspired by tropes and concepts and using them to write the background/look of a game setting that you then make original design models for is far different then someone hiding in the shadows trying to put out knock-off versions of those exact designs (copyrighted products) before the parent company does...

I don't really enough either way to get hot and bothered over it personally, but a I stated: your assertion is a HUGE stretch...

1 that has **nothing** to do with respect. do you really think a knock-off game would have gotten half the attention this did? do you realize what a cash-cow this has been for them? respect? really, no. just profit. (NTTAWWT!)
2 ...you do realize many of the models are rather... derivative as well? I mean, the idea of copyrighting the concept of a pauldron... it takes some chutzpah. there's more like that. no, power armour is not all that original - if anything 'Nids might be but even there I've seen people point out lots of pop-culture examples predating GW. haven't got any to hand, but there's plenty threads to this.

//why do I even bother

Hmm... undecided on this. The Codex system really demands that everything is released at once, though I think the wave system has worked ok. It would have worked better if the release schedule was confirmed in advance.

This can only be a good thing. I really don't get the argument 'but then you won't get any new stuff for 6-7 years' at all. Seriously, do you guys buy models for your army just because they are new? I absolutely despise the wave system because we don't know if and when a wave hits.

I had to hold on assembling a Necron army for a time because I wasn't sure if and when or ever the Scythe models are released. An army based on them was the only one I was interested in. Now I don't care if GW doesn't release any new Necron models for the next 7 years. When the time comes that I've painted and assembled a force large and flexible enough that I can build every tournament army imaginable from the codex, I'll buy another army, most likely a new one with new interesting rules and models. There's plenty room on the shelves. I don't need to be crying in a corner that the army I've played with for a year or two needs something new. Why would I? Modern 40K codex books have plenty of units (much more than they used to) to choose from. Getting a single new unit after a couple years won't refresh the army in any way. If I want something new, I buy something entirely new with a different visual theme and playstyle.

What's keeping you guys from owning multiple armies, or one of every GW army? You'll always have something to add on to/replace then. Here's a plan: Start playing a DIY Space Marines chapter that can wysiwyg count as any chapter, and then one xenos army of your liking. Believe me a year won't go by that you won't have new models to buy and new rules to use, if that's your thing.

My preference in full model splash with White Dwarf becoming useful again with rules for any new models in conjunction with releases.

This wouldn't be any worse than the current method, and given the current quality of models, I'd be fine with them all coming out at once. If I'm going to buy more, it shouldn't need to be because its new, it should be because I want said unit, or want to increase the size/variety of my army.

yeah,

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:

Bacms wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:Augh
The sad thing is, considering what they've been doing with Fantasy, this is entirely believeable.
Oh, and to all of you saying that this is a good thing, we won't get more models at release - we'll get the usual release packages, and then nothing else.

What the rumour is saying is that you get all the models on the codex at the release time. They might not be available to buy on the release date and you can still have waves.
To be honest I also think it is a good idea to have everything available immediately rather than waves. Yes it means your army won't get updates in the following years but since most people tend to have several armies anyway you will still end up buying more stuff during the remain of the time so GW still wins. Plus this could means WD will have to have less edition of second waves slots which could mean more army update spots. Although being GW we never know what to expect

Really? I thought that it would just mean that we'd get less new models in the Codex in the first place.

But almost every codex has every non character unit available now.
So it seems future new army releases / codex releases will be about replacing tired old models and adding relatively few new units.

Can we list what 40k units are currently missing models ?

Panic...

Kroothawk wrote:6-7 years between releases? I play Dark Eldar, Sororitas and Wood elves! Ask your Grandpa if he remembers the last Wood Elf release!

"Dad, when will I get new miniatures for my army?" "Ask me again when you are married, son."

Yes, the funny thing is I remember exactly the same conversations prior to the last Wood Elf army book. God knows how many years that had been released before! I guess some armies will also be less popular sales wise, and so will always only get the smallest amount of service.

TBH I don't know if this policy change will make much of a difference to that many people. The hardcore fans will have already made conversions/bought 3rd party bits (as was the case with the Nids for example), and the target demographic of kids will probably just shrug their shoulders and get something else anyway.

Panic wrote:Can we list what 40k units are currently missing models ?

These come to mind:

Asdrubael Vect
Kheradruakh
Baron Sathonyx
Lady Malys
Duke Sliscus
Void Raven
Griffon
Colossus
Nork Deddog
Mogul Kamir
Lukas Bastonne
Hydra
Wazdakka
Old Zogwort
non-BR Dethkoptas

(In addition Rough Riders and Storm Troopers could do with new models, they are about 20 and 10 years old, respectively)

lord_blackfang wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:
I don't see in what way it harms anyone if there are more units in the book than models available. I'd rather this than scrabble around for WD rules for years...

The harm is if the units not available as models are some of the good units that the army really needs.

Thinking specifically about Tyranids, the missing units were Tervigon, Spore Pod and Tyrannofex (possibly a couple of others). Tervigon and Spod are very important units, Tyrannofex less so.

How would it be any less harmful if those units didn't exist in the Codex at all?

GW publish codexes with units in so they can sell models.

There were no models and hundreds of players made their own. I'm happy with that but I bet GW aren't.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

And, course, all of the above comments assume the report is true. It could not be.

Emphasis mine!

Why argue over whether you think waiting for years to get a new codex and models is better than being drip-fed stuff at seemingly random intervals with no real warning?

The simplest thing for GW to do, and the one that protects their IP the most, is to have art of all the models in the codex. This does not mean everything will be released at once, just that GW can say "If it looks like our illustration, and is called what we call it, then it's our IP and you'd better not use anything else!". It's all about stopping 3rd party companies selling stuff to fill in for models GW can't be ar*ed to produce, but 'may' do so at some unspecified time in the future.

And that will work. Their house, their rules. You will not be allowed to use proxy models, except possibly conversions using ONLY GW parts, at official tournaments or in GW stores (Individual managers may let that slide, but will be taking a risk if they do). FLGS may risk loosing stockist status if found allowing other companies models, gaming at a friend's house you can do whatever the players agree on.


Dropping everything on players all at once is, IMO, likely to lose sales, people will buy a codex on week 1, read it without buying any models to find out what units are the most OP, or suit their playstyle most, buy what they are after on week 2, paint and play by week 3. Where as staggered releases may force people into buying second best until their prefferred units come out. Personally I don't care. I don't play, I model - so if something I want to model comes out with everything else, or in 6 months time, makes no odds to me. I just want to know IF it's coming out and WHEN it's coming out. And with the recent price hikes, I'm much more likely to put my disposable income into another area of my hobby (Modelling) or one of my other hobbies. The only people who lose out due to bad decisions by GW (Finecast - especially now marines are going FC! new marine vehicle designs, and yes, no love for the Tau collector in me) and price increases on stuff that I thought was expensive in the first place - IS GW!

Voting with my wallet. Not impressed by recent GW behaviour, not buying GW stuff. Message to GW is simple. Improve and gain back custom, or keep doing what you are doing and die.

I think that if they utilize the new BRB, and codex for only currently existing models and use the white dwarf to release new models with new rules within the game, they may have something similar to PP's version of releases.

the only drawback to this system vs PP, is that PP is card based, meaning you can update all your models with just a single faction deck purchase, and all models come with their addended rules in the box or blister. (something GW could also do)

The flyer's issue we just recieved is a good example of how that could be played out. 3 armies got a new model and rules (necrons already having their rules).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which hobby are they tarnishing exactly Panic? The wargaming hobby, which GW is a part of, or the HHHobby, which GW think they are alone in?

Awww come on, you of all people know better than to feed the fanboys...and Panics comment was the purest fanboy stuff Ive seen.

I think I would prefer to have the splashes followed by nothing rather than the hideous conversions you see of models that aren't released yet from a new Codex. I purchase entire armies at a time and then paint them over the course of several years usually so give me all the models right off please. I waited a year to make my Red Hunters waiting for Stormravens, I waited more than two years to finish my Daemons so I could have Fateweaver and plastic Crushers. Getting everything I want for a new army has never really been possible on release before, I think I will be fine with it.

I can see the no new stuff for ages issue, but in my mind its very rare I'd buy a whole army in one sitting anyways. So at least having every unit type available right from the off would allow me to take the initial force I wanted and add to it later.

I think given the two options, looking at how the Tyranid players have been stringed along, I'd rather have the mostly at once option.

If they want to add to the army again before the next release, surely thats what missing special Characters and old units being upgraded to plastic or redone due to age would be for. Or as others have noted, just adding new units via the Dwarf as it seems they are willing to do that again.

I did this during the beginning of 2d edition.

Began with a boxed set, added my army in as they came out. then filled it out as the battles evolved my game. Currently, as with current tech- GW is taking the piss.

They should take a step back, and remember what they already learned the first time, ala 2d edition- That pushing a codex eventually removes some if not several units that eventually will be forgotten.

They can easily sell you a 3 ring binder with the current established army stats in it, then sell you several, or PDF evolutions of units in the army throughout the year. Thereby taking advantage of established dogma, and NOT rewriting the damn game every iteration, and giving players a stable environment to play in for a game. (A shock attack gun is a shock attack gun, a Leman Russ is a Leman Russ, a Long fang is a long fang....)

The way in which GW exploited its fans over the years, combined with the tiolet spillage that Mr Wells spouts off at random is easily in the realm of reality, yet when combined with attitudes like Panics, ( yes, I understand your perspective, even though I do not entirly agree, and feel that third parties are an intrigal part of Wargaming, the real hobby here.

We are as of now looking at players playing basicly the same armies as the game evovles year to year. Whatever works, someone spouts off an internets list, then you have the mindless chum coming in behind and playing the exact thing- as SOME Units are entirly ignored, as other units are creamed all over for the sake of the win.

In the event that this is true, GW could easily sell you a codex, an army book of fluff, and additional evolutions of your unit, which you could theoreticly change, and add to your binder, ( Much as in the days of Rogue Trader, when you had to get the stuff out of the WD to play the game with.)

Then there is the little matter of spouting off at the hole with a craptastic codex, which is entirely ... garbage. What then, to the guy whos sitting there with a few years worth of product, when your looking over at the much loved Necrons/ Tyranids who seem to be getting all of the lickies and chewies.

Take that you silly little IG!

I for one would wish that they could eventually just up and nix the codex, add in an 1-2" army bible and call it a day.

PP is already on target, and out GW'ing GW at every turn at it.

My personal opinion is I like everything all at once. I hate waiting months for a model. When I get the book I want to play the full army not part cause there is no model.

The other factor to consider is that GW may be at the point where they believe the range is 90% complete. Very few races now will require redesigning from the ground up like Necrons and Dark Eldar.

If you look at the Empire release in April, the models that came out that month consisted solely of new units. The core of the army already exists (albeit with some very old scuplts), so they didn't need to release all that much.

I'd say pretty much every army is at this stage now with ony a few minor gaps in the range.

I prefer the release of new and redesigned units along with the codex instead of staggered wave releases that may or may not happen for years. As for the lack of new stuff in between codex releases, there is always WD for articles that expand units for armies... or god forbid annual or biennial compilation Chapter Approved books like in 3rd edition.

GW could do an everything at once release, followed by new units later. They have the track-recodd that shows that they are perfectly capable of that:

Release small updates via White Dwarf (fliers)
Add a game mechanic that could include something for everyone (new cityfight book with some nice models for each army?)
Add new sub-codicies/army lists ala Imperial Armour.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:As far as H.B.M.C. is concerned, the sky is always falling. The sky always has to be falling, because if it isn't, then the real disaster kicks in, and we don't want to know what that may be. So just leave him in the corner, wringing his hands and occasionally toss him a hankie.

It's cool that the best you can do is insult me. It might be better to stay on topic... but that might just be my opinion.

Don't let me stop you though. Carry on attempting to turn this into something about me.

Releasing everything at the same time is a good thing. You complain about it. That screams out loud that you want it to be all about you. How about trying to see the good in something for once?

Interesting. Adding the original rumor to the ongoing thread.

lord_blackfang wrote:I already have enough problems convincing my opponents that my Q-workshop dice are fair and that my printed FAQs aren't forged. Not looking forward to printing new rules off the website.

If everybody needs to print off the rules then it should become fairly common place then. SO you shouldn't have much problems I would have thought. If people at the moment are bugging you about your current FAQs and also dice, then perhaps you are playing with the wrong people.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

I'm confused. Did you not read what I posted?

I'm working under the assumption that you can read, and thus have some level of reading comprehension, yes? Therefore, to quote not even myself, but Taco-bell directly:

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

Just because a person has a different thought than you does not mean you have to be that rude.

-Loki- wrote:
That's not a bad thing. Codices and army books are so bloated right now, there's already redundant units in them. The problem of GW being a miniatures company instead of a game company, they need new models in the book every edition. Books that had a release in 4th edition didn't need new units in 5th. Books that got a release in 5th not only don't need new units in 6th, but some could stand to lose a few as well. Books that have had a release every edition are getting ridiculous. This is where balancing issues tend to crop up, since the newer unit that made an old unit redundant tends to be a bargain simply to sell the model to people that already have the older model (good example - the Trygon and the Carnifex).

Not getting as many units on release, but getting them all? Yes please.

Exactly. I am a blood angels player and I am STILL trying to buy stuff to fill my army out and I've only played the one army since 3rd ed. I have recently bought some Grey Knights (just waiting for them through the post), so I will have enough on my hands as it is trying to fill out my collection. Saving grace is that I can use some of my Blood Angels stuff along with my Grey Knights e.g. Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Stormravens, etc, etc.

I dont know if this has been mentioned but GW have already done this with the necrons. All the models were clearly designed and ready to go when the codex came out and they just spread them over 6 months.

I like it this way.

Tigerone wrote:
Just because a person has a different thought than you does not mean you have to be that rude.

Says the guy that constantly calls whiners to everyone that dares complain about GW pricing policies...

DaNewBoy wrote:I'm also not seeing a downside to this.

Unless this is just another, "OMG I hate anything and everything GW does" type deal?

If there is "nothing to buy" until the next codex is release, then I am relieved. This will actually make maintaining two or three different armies easier, imo.

Its kinda like that

I'm kinda fine with how GW releases stuff now. My only real complaint is they don't tell you what's coming even 1 month away. Just. Totally. Stupid.

Conrad Turner wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

The birds have been chirping, and they are saying that once 6th Edition is launched, the entire multi-wave concept for miniatures may be over from Games Workshop. There is talk that the Chaos Marine codex will launch with all its units, or at least have them shown in pictures in the codex.

The simplest thing for GW to do, and the one that protects their IP the most, is to have art of all the models in the codex. This does not mean everything will be released at once, just that GW can say "If it looks like our illustration, and is called what we call it, then it's our IP and you'd better not use anything else!". It's all about stopping 3rd party companies selling stuff to fill in for models GW can't be ar*ed to produce, but 'may' do so at some unspecified time in the future.

You're sort of close, but IP does not work this way with models from what I understand. They can copyright the illustration, idea, etc. but if they haven't produced a model for it, they can't claim another company is infringing on their IP if they produce a proxy model. Basically GW will have to show a model for a unit in the codex, even if they don't immediately release it to prevent 3rd party companies from producing knock-off models.

So what I believe we will see in codexes is images for all units, to protect copyright, but they may not release everything immediately, or at least lessen the length of waves, like with dark Eldar.

I would much prefer everything all at once. I'm sure I'm not the only one who spaces out purchases over time, and the idea that everything released at once will hurt sales doesn't make sense. People will spend what they can afford to spend. They will buy what they can and come back later for more, and be confident in knowing everything is available for them when they need it and not have to wonder about a potential release at some unspecified future date.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Panic wrote:Can we list what 40k units are currently missing models ?

These come to mind:

Asdrubael Vect (Isn't there an old model for this guy? I don't know if they still sell it though)
Kheradruakh
Baron Sathonyx
Lady Malys
Duke Sliscus
Void Raven
Griffon (Old model, don't think they make one anymore, but there is a FW alternative)
Colossus (No GW model, but again, a FW model can be used)
Nork Deddog (I seem to remember they did do one of these at some point? Don't know whether they still sell it though, maybe it was a conversion...)
Mogul Kamir
Lukas Bastonne
Hydra (FW model)
Wazdakka (I thought there was a model for Wazdakka? Or am I getting mixed up with something else? I don't play Orks...)
Old Zogwort
non-BR Dethkoptas

(In addition Rough Riders and Storm Troopers could do with new models, they are about 20 and 10 years old, respectively) (Agreed on RRs, but Kasrkin are basically Storm-Trooper re-sculpts? Agreed on needing more though, I don't like Kasrkin too much....)

Added my thoughts in bold

There's more than just those last two being old and needing re-sculpts though, I think some of the Eldar aspects are showing their age, and Ork Buggies are still using the 2nd edition model aren't they? Oh... And the Assassins! I bought the old 2nd ed Assassins codex off ebay for cheap, and really want some assassins now, but they look too... Dated... They've aged better than some models mind....

Am I the only one who remembers the days when GW uses to advertise other manufacturers? As Paladium used to say, its your game, we wont send the rules police round if you want to play it different to how we wrote it.

Maybe its just because I only play at home or with friends, but I have no problem with 3rd party models. mind you I do agree bad models hurt the hobby.

If however GW keep hitching the prices up, that will hurt them more as people are forced to consider alternatives from inventive conversions, to 3rd party suppliers.

Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

Yeah,
Agamemnon, Sorry I ment non character units missing models?

Void Raven
Griffon
Colossus
Hydra
non-BR Dethkoptas

Flash gitz
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...

tyranids are missing a few...
shrikes... (warriors with wings.)
harpy
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings)
Parasite of mortrex
Ymgarl genestealers
Mycetic spore pod
.... And the doom and leaper? Named characters?


What else??

Panic...

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

There is no gurantee they'll use Whitedwarf in that way. Tau and any other codex that hasn't been updated should be concerned because without the release waves GW is limited in what new units are included in the codex by how much they can release with the codex, eg 4 box sets and ~4 blisters. This means relative to books more recently updated, newer codices will tend to have less.

Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

They got away from this a few years back because you were having to carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game.

aka_mythos wrote:

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

There is no gurantee they'll use Whitedwarf in that way. Tau and any other codex that hasn't been updated should be concerned because without the release waves GW is limited in what new units are included in the codex by how much they can release with the codex, eg 4 box sets and ~4 blisters. This means relative to books more recently updated, newer codices will tend to have less.

If the 4 new units provide good gameply aspects, it's ok with me.

However, if you have a full codex (like the tau one), with only a hand full of good units/tactics,
and the rest is totally useless, it's a shame...

So I preffer less units at the beginning (in one wave), but more regular updates,
especially because of new rulebooks, new army releases and the like.

It's simply impossible to balance one release for ever.
But to neglect it for ever is a whole nother thing..

(Guess why my avatar is a space marine now... XD)

12thRonin wrote:

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

They got away from this a few years back because you were having to carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game.

You don't "need" to carry that stuff as you have a choice whether or not to stick with the codex or use add ons from other official sources. If you don't plan on buying a Stormtalon, you don't need to carry the rules with you. If you do plan on buying one, you can always cut out the page or print out an uploaded gif or official uploaded GW pdf of the rules to fold and carry in your codex. Even at the height of 3rd edition optional rules, you never had to "carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game". You *CHOSE* whether or not to use VDR, TAR, TVR, DW, variant army list, or any other acronym accessory from the yearly compendiums or WD.

This solution (if the rumor is true) isn't perfect but is a nice compromise. People who don't want years of famine between codex releases get additional units whereas people who want official models available at codex release get them. This is at the "cost" of carrying a few extra pieces of paper with you. When you've got a 1,500-3,000pt army plus rulebook plus codex plus carrying case, the extra 1/16 of an ounce is not a significant hindrance.

warboss wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

IPS wrote:Since I play tau I do not care that much...^^
But more regular unit updates in the White dwarf, after a full release wafe, to keep the interest in perticular armies would help a LOT.

(would also give them a way to easily boost sales on other units that do not sell very well)

They got away from this a few years back because you were having to carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game.

You don't "need" to carry that stuff as you have a choice whether or not to stick with the codex or use add ons from other official sources. If you don't plan on buying a Stormtalon, you don't need to carry the rules with you. If you do plan on buying one, you can always cut out the page or print out an uploaded gif or official uploaded GW pdf of the rules to fold and carry in your codex. Even at the height of 3rd edition optional rules, you never had to "carry a backpack full of white dwarfs, codexes, and the rulebook to be able to play a game". You *CHOSE* whether or not to use VDR, TAR, TVR, DW, variant army list, or any other acronym accessory from the yearly compendiums or WD.

This solution (if the rumor is true) isn't perfect but is a nice compromise. People who don't want years of famine between codex releases get additional units whereas people who want official models available at codex release get them. This is at the "cost" of carrying a few extra pieces of paper with you. When you've got a 1,500-3,000pt army plus rulebook plus codex plus carrying case, the extra 1/16 of an ounce is not a significant hindrance.

Choosing to or not is irrelevant. That's the reason GW gave for doing away with it.

I can see the benefits of this and the drawbacks.

The plus to this is they will be banking on the sudden "My army is updated" sales. I could actually see a good opportunity to offer a package deal of 1 codex and 2 NEW units for X amount of dollars.

Unfortunately after the big all-in-one army release, and if you don't play more then one army, you wait...If they really are going through with this then I hope all of the codices get updated between editions. When I played it drove me nuts to watch several armies get updates, more then one even, while others didn't.

I also have to wonder what kind of pressure this puts on the developers to meet the deadline?

It has been a while since I have looked at any of the 40k books, but how unified are they? This aspect could make a big difference. When I played the codices were not very unified and so special work was done for every one because everyone was like a whole different rule book. But if they were more unified it would make getting the codices out to the public easier.

Hi H.B.M.C, I usually really like (and generally agree) with your posts, but I feel with this one you're dropping into a 'one or the other' or 'black / white' kind of half-full analysis. You seem to suggest that GW is ditching a policy of 'wave releases' for a policy of 'all at once with the codex', which is a bit simplistic, I think.

This could be a 'all minis on codex release PLUS waves through White Dwarf' model, which would be a winner for everyone if done rightly (caveat - I've no confidence in GW doing anything rightly, but let's hope in a 'glass half full' mood), and maybe GW have gone with this route?

So, GW release every codex model in one go with the codex, and release say, 3 codices per year. They then also release additional models/minis/good stuff for all/any codices throughout the year with rules in White Dwarf. They then release a 'just-in-time-for-Aunty-Betty's present' December collation of all WD rules, plus errata and FAQs and lots more fluff and pics of cool minis.

GW wins several times over: with the initial codex release and all minis, and the subsequent (and sustained sales) pitch for them; with White Dwarf sales (which, if you think must be much more profitable on a per unit basis than the BRB or a codex, and it's out every month, so if they do it right they get big profits every month; and with the annual collated rules/FAQs/Minis/fluff publication.

Hobbyists also win many times over: with all minis available with the codex (for use off the shelf or for conversion), with a great and meaningful monthly hobby magazine going back to its heyday and not just being a glorified sales catalogue, and with a cool end of year collation.

Anyone who whinges about carrying around more than just the codex when extra rules are concerned should check the wikipedia entry for 'photocopier', then the website despair.com for some very funny but self reflecting content...

Love your writing normally H.B.M.C. (especially as someone trying to promote 40k roleplay through the FFG books in random parts of the world: I've managed to set groups up in Cambodia, DR Congo, and I'm working on Indonesia as we speak!), but here I'd say maybe give GW a bit of slack, and consider this might be a great plan for 40k, WD, and hobbyists, and all that together means more players and more fun for everyone - which is why I am part of the 40k universe, and so why I'm happy about this rumour.

Or am I being wildly and improbably optimistic?

PS - if you're passing through Indonesia and fancy a game of Rogue Trader (or even D&D - heresey, I know, but true!), then let me know!

Panic wrote:
This has got to be better than seeing all the terribad conversions people come up with because they can't wait for a official release.

It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Panic...

What hobby are you a part of? Conversion used to be one of the celebrated aspects of the "Games Workshop Hobby." The whole Ork looting mechanic and slapshod aesthetic of that line was designed to encourage conversions.

And what does "Tarnishing the hobby" mean? If I show up with a home conversion (of which I am incredibly proud) or a Chapterhouse model, that somehow soils the hobby?

I think I'll pass on your version of the hobby if you don't mind, as fun as it sounds, it seems a bit pretentious to me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

notprop wrote:How can getting all of the miniatures released at once be a bad thing?

I'm confused. Did you not read what I posted?

I'm working under the assumption that you can read, and thus have some level of reading comprehension, yes? Therefore, to quote not even myself, but Taco-bell directly:

"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

I fail to understand why this is bad. it seems GW can't do anything right. They release models in waves, they get flak. They release everything at once, they get flak. Which is stupid. They have to have some kind of release model, but if either is bad, then they can't release anything.

Like I said. I completely fail to see anything bad with the single release model. So what if there's 6-7 years until some new models come out? You already have the entire codex to choose from. Even how it is currently, you are limited to the models in the codex. With the single release model, you can actually make a whole army the way you want it, instead of having to proxy half the list because there are no models for it. Plus, you buy a model which is a reasonable proxy of a unit that has no model, but the actual unit you bought has little or no in-game-value, THEN they release a new kit which includes the models you've been proxying. Now you have to buy that unit all over, leaving you with having bought a bunch of models you don't need or even want.

Again. There are NO drawbacks to us as customers with the single release model. Anyone who says differently are just whiners who love to QQ about how horrible those bullies at GW are. Tsk tsk. Get a different hobby, or move on to a different game if you think GW are so terrible. I bet you had to dig far and deep to even find this weak excuse to whine about something GW did.

CT GAMER wrote:
1. I think GW's insistance on putting out the LOTR game speaks to their respect for Tolkien's work. They didnt put out a knok-off game called "Master of the rings" which is the equivilant of what many of the 3rd parties do...

LOL! Because Warhammer Fantasy Battle has nothing whatsoever in common with LOTR...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

Have you ever put that model together? You'd like to forget it exists too. It's also from Gorkamorka and is really, really old.

So now we're going from "GRR, GW WAVE RELEASES LEAVE TONS OF MODELS OUT OF THE BOOKS" to "GRR, GW SPLASH DOESNT LEAVE THE PLAYER INTERESTED"?

Classy, Dakkanauts. Classy.


I, for one, am excited that I won't have to worry about having to convert things out of necessity. I'll still convert stuff if it's expensive/uncool or whatever, but at least I'm not forced to do so.

In the end I don't think changing the release is going to change much for GW. They have already ran off so many players that all that is left is a few vocal die-hards and hobbyists. While GWs IP is going strong their miniatures games have started to decline. We may see a day where GW is no longer in the miniature game market and firmly ensconced in the video game, movie, and/or tv markets.

The big thing as a former Nid player was waiting for so long for models since I didn't like the look of the 3rd party models. I waited so long that when the finally released the models this past winter/spring I just said forget it and sold my army off. frustration for so long without any news until they were about to release them really soured me on them.

For this new release strategy to work they need to do what other game systems do and communicate with it's supporters. If they don't it will fail.

timd wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
1. I think GW's insistance on putting out the LOTR game speaks to their respect for Tolkien's work. They didnt put out a knok-off game called "Master of the rings" which is the equivilant of what many of the 3rd parties do...

LOL! Because Warhammer Fantasy Battle has nothing whatsoever in common with LOTR...

Or CT could be talking about, you know, the actual LOTR game that GW makes

I just wish they'd release surprise new units for each army and include a codex addition sheet in the box with the kit. Sure, they won't sell a new book from it but it keeps things fresh and gets people interested in otherwise stagnant armies without having to redo the whole lot.

I'd love to see random new stuff appear. The flyers for example should be the start of something bigger. New models and concepts launched and rules in WD perhaps. Isn't that what WD was for anyway?

Druidic wrote:Am I the only one who remembers the days when GW uses to advertise other manufacturers? As Paladium used to say, its your game, we wont send the rules police round if you want to play it different to how we wrote it.

That's because GW used to be a distributor of those games. I had copies of Runequest editions that were done for GW even though they had nothing to do with the rules.

As far as I am aware 40k is still a garage game where you can add in your own units etc. I think people mistakenly take WD as the gospel on all things 40k and tournaments don't help break the mould because they need a framework to operate in and for some they even restrain the core rules. Look at the ETC rules for Warhammer Fantasy.

If this rumour is true then I think it stems from two things, first as others have mentioned the alternative companies are making a killing based on GWs crap release schedule. Second I stopped buying codecies because I knew that many of the cool models wouldn't be released for ages if at all. When I came back to 40k it was on the basis of the Space Wolves codex and we got well and truly shafted on that front. While I support the idea of garage 40k I prefer to have the citadel figures and GW's schedule has had a direct impact on my willingness to buy their products.

I remember that far back, but it's shrouded in the mists of time....

There were some good non-gw things in WD back then IIRC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

Have you ever put that model together? You'd like to forget it exists too. It's also from Gorkamorka and is really, really old.

Fugly as hell, and ludicrously hard to keep together on the shelf, let alone in a bag.

Superglue, microtorch, zipkicker and duct tape on standby..

I've had 5 over the years, and never liked ANY of them...

I love nids but not even those are safe when other companies publish superb minis every month... 6 years gap means game over IMO. Totally out of touch with the collective nature of miniatures, but maybe good for the short therm and discardable clientelle.

All changes to the news and releases system short after starting at the block outs even in GD's is purelly ridiculous in the age of information... Good luck with riding that horse GW.

SgtSixkilla wrote:

I fail to understand why this is bad. it seems GW can't do anything right. They release models in waves, they get flak. They release everything at once, they get flak. Which is stupid. They have to have some kind of release model, but if either is bad, then they can't release anything.

Like I said. I completely fail to see anything bad with the single release model. So what if there's 6-7 years until some new models come out? You already have the entire codex to choose from. Even how it is currently, you are limited to the models in the codex. With the single release model, you can actually make a whole army the way you want it, instead of having to proxy half the list because there are no models for it. Plus, you buy a model which is a reasonable proxy of a unit that has no model, but the actual unit you bought has little or no in-game-value, THEN they release a new kit which includes the models you've been proxying. Now you have to buy that unit all over, leaving you with having bought a bunch of models you don't need or even want.

Again. There are NO drawbacks to us as customers with the single release model. Anyone who says differently are just whiners who love to QQ about how horrible those bullies at GW are. Tsk tsk. Get a different hobby, or move on to a different game if you think GW are so terrible. I bet you had to dig far and deep to even find this weak excuse to whine about something GW did.

To be fair, I don't think its the wave style releases themselves that people don't like, more the fact that GW keeps us utterly in the dark over what will be in a later wave and when it will happen. I'm sure plenty of people would be happy if they said something along the lines of "The following units will receive models in July" when they release a new book.

I haven't minded the wave releases nor did I mind the splash releases. What I did mind was not knowing what units were going to be made for each codex. GW creates a niche for those companies who are willing to make those models since not all of us are conversion capable. The problem comes back to communication again. If we get a splash release of all/most of the units, we still won't know about until a week before hand. I saw nothing in the OP about changing that part of the method. I'd also rather not see WD released units as GW has a tendancy to yank those at a moment's notice as opposed to balancing them. I had an armored company when they came out and I bought FW Rhinox riders. Both were disallowed and I'd rather not go through that again.

Ascalam wrote:I remember that far back, but it's shrouded in the mists of time....

There were some good non-gw things in WD back then IIRC


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

Have you ever put that model together? You'd like to forget it exists too. It's also from Gorkamorka and is really, really old.

Fugly as hell, and ludicrously hard to keep together on the shelf, let alone in a bag.

Superglue, microtorch, zipkicker and duct tape on standby..

I've had 5 over the years, and never liked ANY of them...

lets not forget the price tag eh lads

Brother SRM wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Why is it that Deffkoptas always pop up when people mention stuff there's no models for? Even disregarding the AoBR ones, there's still this:

Have you ever put that model together? You'd like to forget it exists too. It's also from Gorkamorka and is really, really old.

Oh sweet Emporer, those things suck to put together and worse, balance. They are weirdly balanced and fall over all the time and break. The little bastards. Making things worse, the AoBR ones are hard to modify the core parts to make them more variable.

I'm going to reiterate my point that the GW has pretty much completed it's core range now. Some of it might look dated but it's 90% all there.

The next time a codex comes out (with the exception of Sisters of Battle maybe), they'll only have to release models for the new units. The wave system isn't really needed anymore in my eyes.

I have to say, I would prefer the rumor to be true. Having everything out at once would help me plan out purchases. Having at least a picture of everything in the book could also solve some early problems (oh thats how big a warshrine is). Having everything out at once that is going to get put out also solves the mystery of whether a model will get done at all. I have had my marine army since the Armageddon book, and I have never owned a Whirlwind. There can always be something more for me to buy, especially if 40k goes back to percentage instead of the FOC. This policy also wouldn't prevent later releases of new models and rules (like the fliers) or resculpts (releasing an old box with a new codex and putting out the new one in a few months when ready, I think the IG tanks had this treatment last time). Assuming there is no reduction of models for the lifespan of a codex, I don't see the negatives of this rumor out weighing the positives for me.

Panic wrote:Yeah,
Agamemnon, Sorry I ment non character units missing models?

Tough. I can only answer the actual question you ask, not the ones you intend to ask.

Kazwulf wrote:Making things worse, the AoBR ones are hard to modify the core parts to make them more variable.

Umm... if you say so.

Im sorry to say this but its the most stupid whining i ever read...

You get everything at once, perfect! You can buy what you want from the start and dont have to proxy/make your own stuff for two years while you wait for it to come out.
Al the unit profiles are already in the codex so you already know what they do and what you want, only difference is you could now buy everything from the start if the rumor is true.

Its like whining about an army that has been out for two, three years that they already got al their minnies.so i wont start that army because i can buy everything for it and its not getting a new model....

I

Panic wrote:Yeah,
Agamemnon, Sorry I ment non character units missing models?

Void Raven
Griffon
Colossus
Hydra
non-BR Dethkoptas

Flash gitz
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...

tyranids are missing a few...
shrikes... (warriors with wings.)
harpy
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings)
Parasite of mortrex
Ymgarl genestealers
Mycetic spore pod
.... And the doom and leaper? Named characters?


What else??

Panic...

Griffon & Hydra are both available from Forge World, which means that there are official models in production. Granted, they're resin rather than metal, but the point is that GW does produce models for them.

The same could be argued for Deffkoptas I guess - just because you have to buy it in a set doesn't mean it's not available. Just because you have to buy a servo-harness techmarine with a servitor squad set doesn't mean servo-harness techmarines aren't available.

Ymgarl genestealers are just regular ones with the gribbly mouths, right? Again, you might have to buy a few sets, but they are available. Otherwise we could argue that ML Long Fangs aren't available....

Flash gitz are available from the website.

So...

Wracks? or Grotesques? One of those isn't available, right?
Penal Legionnaires aren't available

There must be more...

ArbitorIan wrote:

Wracks? or Grotesques? One of those isn't available, right?

Both got a Finecast offering within the last year.

As a Nid player, I have one word for this news...


GOOD

derek wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:

Wracks? or Grotesques? One of those isn't available, right?

Both got a Finecast offering within the last year.

And no-one bought them, because there was only one pose for the grotesque and the wracks didn't come with any options.

But at least they actually MADE them

I feel for the Nid players, as I was one myself. It took years to get the T-fex and Tervigon, and they are still waiting on a bunch of stuff..


GW: We appreciate the awesome new flyers and so on, but could you please finish out the releases for existing units from the dexes?

I see no difference in waiting 7 years for new models and then getting EVERYTHING at once rather than getting *some* now and the remainder over a 7 year period

Personally I rather have all my models at once..sucks for Nids who had to wait forever for their monsters

Currently missing models entirely that i know of (though i may be wrong on a couple..)



Daemons:
Chariots of the various chaos gods, planaquin of nurgle (sure you can convert them, but that's not the point)
Skarbrand IIRC
Blue Scribes
Ku-Gath (as distinct from a regular GUO)

DE
Voidraven
Malys, Vect , Sathonyx, Sliscus, Kaerdruakk

Tyranid

mycetic spore, harpy, shrikes, flying rippers, Parasite of mortrex, Doom of Malantai (sure all of these are convertible, but again, what isn't )

Orks:

Wazdakka (unless FW has one)
Zogwort



There's likely some others out there

They'll be a lot of Brettonian players out there saying tough, now you know how we feel at waiting 7 years for new stuff.

Kirasu wrote:I see no difference in waiting 7 years for new models and then getting EVERYTHING at once rather than getting *some* now and the remainder over a 7 year period

Personally I rather have all my models at once..sucks for Nids who had to wait forever for their monsters

7 years it's an eternity specially if you have weekly news from lots of companies that do know how to use the internet to promote their things and know how to built a buzz around them... it's an eternity if your group is moving elsewhere for their fix they will never come back to a dormant silent company, its way to long time to keep your interest pumped in something that is vaguely splashed on a rather appalling mag during those 7 years.
You check your emails box don't you? When you don't check it for a week you have hundreds of emails about minis and wargaming now multiply that for 7 years and see how freaking ridiculous this is.
I have nids and for me the best thing would be monthly goodies for them, not 2 in 2 years or 7...and the worse part is the clamp about news which means no buzz no minis no nothing sorry if I find that not enjoyable or entertaining.

The Bretts aren't alone here. Wood Elves, Daemonhunters, Necrons and Dark Eldar all had their turn at this.

Maybe not all the minis at once, but at least images, then release over a few months.... that would be nice....

Supporting each army only one week per decade is not enough. GW is still in panic over what they consider IP theft. And panic shuts down rational considerations. There will always be room and demand for alternative models by non-GW companies. GW will only succeed in lowering interest in the game.

Making waves and assuring people that all essential units will get new models within an explicit timeframe (the more essential the sooner) would solve the problem. Making extra releases with WD rules would keep interest high. Sales numbers prove that this works (e.g. Skaven and High Elves).

Don't say that Kroot. Someone might accuse you of "complaining".

i can add a unit to the list of non existent models/boxsets

Deathwing termies.... i mean who wouldnt want the termy boxes all rolled into 1, both assault and shooty in the same box

Prediction: 2012

Mixed termy boxset £45 for 5

I actually kind of like the whole wave thing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't say that Kroot. Someone might accuse you of "complaining".

No problem. I am busy painting new Infinity and Malifaux stuff

This is not a bad thing and nowhere do I see the end of splash releases of "new" items in off months.

That said this is the natural outcome to the improvements in the rapid prototyping and plastics process. Digital sculpting is killing dev time. I think it will be logistics which slows releases in the future rather than design.

Regardless of how they are going to put out the product, the cost of playing the game will still turn off people. No discounts of any sort equals the continual loss of the customer base.

Now if you have models that can be used when there is an a Zombie Apocalypse upon us, then I'm all for it

Adam LongWalker wrote:Regardless of how they are going to put out the product, the cost of playing the game will still turn off people. No discounts of any sort equals the continual loss of the customer base.

Check out the official price increase list from The War Store. Current prices good for one more day till May 31.
http://www.thewarstore.com/pdf/TWS2012GW_priceincrease.pdf

I was hearing that most of the items that got increased last year will not be price increased this year, but many of the most popular items like Space Marine vehicles are going up in price again and once again it's mostly not just a buck or two. Example, a Predator tank went from about $40 to $45 last year, now they'll be $57.75. Land Raiders go up $8.25 for the second year in a row to $74.25. Ouch. You just won't seen any new armies with massive tank formations or massive collections of any kind from many new hobbyists. The cost is simply prohibitive given the size of the increases on so many items each year.

This "wave" system has been spotty and hit-or-miss for years. And then they turn around and design and release some new units that aren't in any Codex this coming month for Orks and Space Marines. I always enjoy it when they come up with a fun idea and just do it or release interesting variations of models that are already in the Codex like they did 15 or more years ago. These days when they get rigid at GW they get really rigid. It seems to be the style since T. Kirby took tighter control of GW in all aspects of the business.

Hey, who else thinks maybe this will coincide with a new change in design philosophy? Fewer units? Fewer options? More simplified streamlined rules perhaps? And just in time for the new Chaos codex? Sounds good to me!

Hey how does new plastic raptors, havocs and dreads sound? Yay! Oh, looks like you've blown through your new release allowance - no new options for you! Oops! See ya in 8 years!

Hey how does new plastic raptors, havocs and dreads sound? Yay! Oh, looks like you've blown through your new release allowance - no new options for you! Oops! See ya in 8 years!

Nice to see you crawled out of the woodwork. It's great to see all the old school complainers and conspiracy theorists back in the same thread. The world's going to end.

GW's wave system has been flawed from the start because of lack of information on when and if a second or third wave will or will not hit. If the choice is between that and getting everything that you will ever get in one massive release it's not really a choice at all. This is great news if it has any truth in it. I've always despised the notion that your codex has some seemingly crucial units that don't have models for them and you don't know whether you should spend a lot of money and effort in converting models for them because GW might or might not release official models for them in the near or far future.

I can't see why you read it as meaning that you'd get fewer units. Necrons are the latest army in town and they got a ton of new kits in a short period of time. If that release time frame becomes even shorter then great.

Complainers and conspiracy theoriests? Doobie was me before I was me! He is my Dakka elder (as opposed to Eldar). I look up to him!

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Hey, who else thinks maybe this will coincide with a new change in design philosophy? Fewer units? Fewer options? More simplified streamlined rules perhaps? And just in time for the new Chaos codex? Sounds good to me!

Hey how does new plastic raptors, havocs and dreads sound? Yay! Oh, looks like you've blown through your new release allowance - no new options for you! Oops! See ya in 8 years!

I see what you did there...

Therion wrote:I can't see why you read it as meaning that you'd get fewer units.

Uh, maybe because since time immemorial models have driven rules and not the other way around?

@ BrassScorpion

Thanks for the info to give to others of a 3rd party seller before the price increases take affect.


I've been buying large amounts of GW product from 3rd party sellers before and when 6th rumors started hitting the interwebs seriously. I recently bought 35 Eldar jetbikes (got a fluff army thing for my Eldar going) and it sure as hell not from Games Workshop directly. What I purchased directly from GW of late? Around $20 per month as I consider that using their table space to play on. But I'm not going in there much anymore so that will decline as well.

Spending money on this hobby(or any hobby)is not my issue. I'll drop hundreds of dollars (in cash of course) in a moments notice if I feel that this is a good deal on giving me satisfaction in whatever I want to do in my free time.

I believe like others that this is a reaction to the chapter house lawsuit and other third party companies making alternative parts for GW product. All of this is reactionary, not being proactive.

BrassScorpion wrote:
Check out the official price increase list from The War Store. Current prices good for one more day till May 31.
http://www.thewarstore.com/pdf/TWS2012GW_priceincrease.pdf

Wow, just wow... The Imperial Bastion is going up 37.5%. Basilica Administratum, Sanctum Imperialis and Manifactorum all going up by 32%. 40k Battlefield Accessories up by 71%...

Looks like they are trying to get the 20% discounters to sell for the old full retail prices: 20% GW price increase minus 20% discounter discount = current retail prices. No possible production increases could possibly justify this much of an increase,

BrassScorpion wrote: These days when they get rigid at GW they get really rigid. It seems to be the style since T. Kirby took tighter control of GW in all aspects of the business.

All praise the mighty Leader Kim Il Kirby!

On a positive note, if everything is being released at once, it will leave a lot more space in WD for interesting content in issues that aren't featuring a new Codex/Army Book.

They could always produce everything at once (As the OP stated) and then add new units via white dwarf like they are now to keep interest high (Granted that would make entirely too much sense. I think it's a pretty big shame that they are considering this not because it would make players happy but because they're trying to punish 3rd party designers like chapterhouse for "stealing" their IP

Flashman wrote:I'm going to reiterate my point that the GW has pretty much completed it's core range now. Some of it might look dated but it's 90% all there.

The next time a codex comes out (with the exception of Sisters of Battle maybe), they'll only have to release models for the new units. The wave system isn't really needed anymore in my eyes.

Because GW DON'T make money out of selling models, right? They can make enough out selling stuff to new customers, they don't need to give existing customers an excuse to buy that shiny new model. That'll also make GD a bit boring. How many variants of the squad that was released just at the right time for people to paint can you stand at the Demons?

The wave system in and of itself was not a bad system. The fact that GW didn't tell it's customer base what was coming out, or when, was what was wrong. People are backlashing against it now because they have little to compare it against.

Sony: We'll sell you a TV now, but at some unspecified point in the future you'll be able to buy an integral Blu-ray player to go in that slot, a PVR drive to go in that slot, and a 3D screen replacement because the current 2D one looks Fugly! (Provided we don't decide to drop the model within the next 6-7 years) Warning. 3D replacement screen may warp and have bits drop off if it gets hot!

Ford: We'll sell you a car now, but the air con. will be a sepperate package, you can only use original Ford stereo equipment on motorways (What you use on backroads is up to you, but if they name it too close to ours, or if it looks too much like ours, we'll sue). [Newer models will be made of tinfoil. Found a fault? Send it back for replacement (Max 16 replacements per customer)] P.S. We've closed down our spares department. Want a couple of spare wheels for something else, sorry but you'll have to buy a complete car now!

Yeah, Right! GW are justifiably known for the lack of brains at Head office. It may save them some bother having closed down the ability to order particular parts through mail order, and initially, and at high levels such as the Demons, it may net them some extra sales. But the vast majority will now be individualising their squads with third party parts, stuff they have cast themselves from GW parts. Most people don't have the ability to sculpt arms/weapons/legs/whatever from scratch with just GS, but GW no longer want to sell you the bits to make your models individual, and bitch and moan when you go elsewhere for bits to personallise models you bought from them.

And with the splash system, they are not doing anything to address the basic flaws with their marketing model - they didn't tell their customers what to expect!

With the wave releases, you didn't know when a certain unit for an army was going to come out. Splash release could well mean you don't know what ARMY is coming out! Just imagine how annoyed you'd be if you spent a long time waiting for Nids to come out, get seduced by the new release of Tau, only to find out the very next month that your Nids have come out! If only you'd held on that month longer!

Changing the release type =/= getting the information you need to decide what you want to buy.



And as I said previously, all GW need to do is have pictures in codecies, 3-ups sculpted, to stop others from making the models. the OP does not say that splash releases are going to happen - they can still drip-feed the customer base with wave releases over a year or more which defers the cost to them of cutting tool steel. moulds are expensive, and if they can find out that certain units are not popular before making the moulds they can save in the region of £50K - the profit on how many LR's would that be, do you recon? (Less than before the price increase, certainly!)

Therion wrote:GW's wave system has been flawed from the start because of lack of information on when and if a second or third wave will or will not hit. If the choice is between that and getting everything that you will ever get in one massive release it's not really a choice at all. This is great news if it has any truth in it. I've always despised the notion that your codex has some seemingly crucial units that don't have models for them and you don't know whether you should spend a lot of money and effort in converting models for them because GW might or might not release official models for them in the near or far future.

That's it exactly. There was no natural flow or pattern to the release schedule...the releases were darts haphazardly thrown at a board. (The Tyranid darts missed the board and stuck in the wall, FYI.) The idea was fine, they just struggled with implementation.

gorgon wrote:

Therion wrote:GW's wave system has been flawed from the start because of lack of information on when and if a second or third wave will or will not hit. If the choice is between that and getting everything that you will ever get in one massive release it's not really a choice at all. This is great news if it has any truth in it. I've always despised the notion that your codex has some seemingly crucial units that don't have models for them and you don't know whether you should spend a lot of money and effort in converting models for them because GW might or might not release official models for them in the near or far future.

That's it exactly. There was no natural flow or pattern to the release schedule...the releases were darts haphazardly thrown at a board. (The Tyranid darts missed the board and stuck in the wall, FYI.) The idea was fine, they just struggled with implementation.

Its true but it really carries the caveat that it means overall the codices will be accompanied with less, since they'd now be restricted by what they can produce for release any given month. 4 box sets and ~5 blisters as opposed to the much more that the armies that benefited from the wave system recieved. Armies like tau, eldar, and witchhunters are already behind the volume of options other books have, this just gurantees it stays that way.

Except that no where does it say that you have to have all the releases in one single month. IIRC new releases coinciding with a codex release were usually staggered across two months back in 3rd edition when this was last used. The WD article detailing the new book could simply mention that the releases that are due to hit in the second month. Even adding 40k and WHFB books together doesnt add up to a book every month so there is plenty of room to release new codex boxes over two months.

Are we sure about that though? Their production capacity is limited by what they can do in any given month, then couldn't they, say, delay a Codex by 3 months (an arbitrary number, but bear with me) and then release it along with 3 months worth of models?

I don't see how splash releases limit the amount of models.


And warboss is right. It needn't all be in a single month. Even during the wild times of 2nd Ed, when an Army Book or Codex came out there would be that month's releases, and then more releases for that book the very next month. If a lot was due out for that book, then more stuff in the third month.

I'm just wanting my fething storm troopers.

Kroothawk wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote: These days when they get rigid at GW they get really rigid. It seems to be the style since T. Kirby took tighter control of GW in all aspects of the business.

All praise the mighty Leader Kim Il Kirby!

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

GW can learn a lot from MTG.

Right now MTG is previewing cards for their next 2 releases way ahead of the releases. Amazing isn't it. I can set aside money for the relase day.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Are we sure about that though? Their production capacity is limited by what they can do in any given month, then couldn't they, say, delay a Codex by 3 months (an arbitrary number, but bear with me) and then release it along with 3 months worth of models?
I don't see how splash releases limit the amount of models.

And warboss is right. It needn't all be in a single month. Even during the wild times of 2nd Ed, when an Army Book or Codex came out there would be that month's releases, and then more releases for that book the very next month. If a lot was due out for that book, then more stuff in the third month.

You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

What warboss says is probably more likely... where one, one-and-a-half, maybe two months are spent supporting the codex at release. Some of these more recent codices though have had enough so as to warrent a now unreasonable 3 months worth of releases. I'm just saying that my concern is that a good number of the codices that await an update are ones that were already behind most of the more recently updated codex, before those were updated; as codices were updated the gap in volume of choices between space marines and races like Eldar and Tau only widened.... this change in release schedule only solidifies that gap. For example Eldar might need 3 months worth of releases just to keep up with the codices that are alreafy done but with only 2 months GW will have to weigh between a bunch of new stuff and reworking older models. Its kinda the same rationale that lead to the Chaos Dreadnought model being kept around for as many editions.

Does anybody really know what GW's production capacity is? Because at one time, somebody remarked early on during the Apocalypse hysteria that there were more Baneblades in the hands of gamers than there were in the entire Galaxy of the 41st Millennium. And it would result in more people actually buying a whole new army from GW new rather than picking 90% of it up on Ebay. (I'm guilty of that myself...) Some people just don't paint their armies, and they want to play with more than a 500 pt starter box right away.

Not in the strictest terms, but GW's production capacity is obviously sufficient to both release 10 new products a month while manufacturing replacement stock for older products sold. If production and revenue have a direct relationship, the minimum GW's capacity would have to be to keep its warehouse and stores filled would be the equivalent of producing 1.3M Attack on Black Reach boxes each year. The ability to add new products would imply a capacity exceeding that, I would guess no more than 10%.

UsdiThunder wrote:GW can learn a lot from MTG.

Right now MTG is previewing cards for their next 2 releases way ahead of the releases. Amazing isn't it. I can set aside money for the relase day.

Agreed... I've noticed that for me, if there is something new that I "want" I will buy it in the first two weeks or not at all, and so having that money immediately availble or not is crucial to whether enthusiasm falls to level headedness.

Panic wrote:yeah,

Lordhat wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Redemption wrote:This method at least beats waiting around for 2 years+ to recieve models for important codex entries like the Tyranids had (and still have).

But does it?

In my opinion, it beats it by a mile.

Agreed I'm looking forward to seeing how this release schedule works out.

,

Grimtuff wrote:... GW decided to leave out a somewhat important unit without a model for their codex for approx 2 years after it's release (same goes for TWC) then the result is inevitable. You don't need to be some kind of expert in business to see that...

I agree, If you leave your self open to parasites then you shouldn't be surprised when they start to suck on your blood and irritate you.

At least now it looks like GW is starting to cut them off.

Panic...

I can't understand why someone would argue that third party venders hurt GW. You do realize the CH tervigon kit required the purchase of GW's carnifex kit right? That means they helped GW sell carnifex kits which weren't selling after they got raped in the new dex. Now, everyone who made there own that I know has bought a new one because they like the kit. The same goes for Storm Ravens and the list continues. I think the term you are searching for is SYMBIOTIC relationship because it clearly isn't parasitic. Your claim that GW IP is original is also laughable.

I personally refuse to feel sympathy for a company that consistently releases armies without their best unit. SW, hey lets not make TWC their best new unit. Tyranids, hey lets not make a kit for our best new creatures, one that makes scoring units and the other provides ranged AT. Hey lets continue to fallow the lemmings and release Necrons without their wraiths or spyders, surely those units aren't the best. I'm waiting for tau to be released without a model for some new xenos that fixes their army rules lol. Seriously how can any one feel sympathy for a company that gets rich despite there inability to learn and stop making the same mistake.

I suppose that which system is better depends on what kind of collector you are. The wave system is better for painters and modellers; the one-release system is better for gamers.

Still, though, I don't really get why you'd rather have one release of 4 plastic kits than one release of 4 plastic kits and another release of 2 plastic kits later on...

Panic wrote:yeah,
This makes sense. release all the units you have models for with the codex.

But they didn't do that. There were army books that never got models for certain entries.

Panic wrote:It also removes the need for third party ripoffs of things like Tervigons and Tomb blades. IMO these parasite companies are tarnishing the hobby, so I'm glad GW are taking steps to take the wind from their sails.

Not true. Third party companies will always have models to produce because you can bet that there will be holes to fill in the codex's that will now be ignored for the entire span of the book's life, rather than for a limited period of time. I decided to wait for the official necron stalker, scythe, wraiths, spiders, and tomb blades, because I knew that they would likely come within a year of the codex release. In the future, if a big release happens and certain models are left out, people like me will go directly to third party companies for conversion bits and whole kits if need be for the models that GW ignores.

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"... but if true, it leads back to one of the core issues with the Games Workshop codex/army based concept. Primarily it means that as a player, you have nothing new to buy for your army for the entire 6-7 year timeframe until your codex is revamped."

That!

How is that bad? I don't want to wait 2 years to get a model for a unit I have been waiting for just to find it looks awful, I would rather see it when the codex is released so I can decide "that looks like gak I won't buy it."

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

It boils down to production capacity. If GW were to delay a codex three months so they could release 3 months worth of product in support of it that product has to come from somewhere and so does the new product you propose they sell while they delay the release. If they only have the man power to produce 4 new kits and 4-5 new blisters and keep their warehouse stocked the only way they can build a stock to release 10 or more in a month is to stockpile. Let's use Chaos as an example... Say GW wants to release 10 new kits and 12 blisters.... If they tried to release them all in a single month the man power required would only allow for 2 other new kits and 3 blisters over the three months of build up. 2 kits and 3 blisters don't really fill up the release schedule of those first two months of waiting.

aka_mythos wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

It boils down to production capacity. If GW were to delay a codex three months so they could release 3 months worth of product in support of it that product has to come from somewhere and so does the new product you propose they sell while they delay the release. If they only have the man power to produce 4 new kits and 4-5 new blisters and keep their warehouse stocked the only way they can build a stock to release 10 or more in a month is to stockpile. Let's use Chaos as an example... Say GW wants to release 10 new kits and 12 blisters.... If they tried to release them all in a single month the man power required would only allow for 2 other new kits and 3 blisters over the three months of build up. 2 kits and 3 blisters don't really fill up the release schedule of those first two months of waiting.

You're missing the larger point that GW is not simply releasing kits as they are finished being produced. They release kits when they fit into their sales schedule. GW has all kinds of backlog on kits ready for sale and just haven't been released yet. That's why we see rumors of finished kits sometimes years before release. Maybe the best example of this is the plastic daemon Prince, which was seen in publications and had leaked photos almost 2 years ahead of it's actual release.

another problem is flooding the market. Say 4 plastic kits come out, and a couple of characters. About 100-150 USD lets sayMost people can generally afford that, maybe a few more if they like one of the kits. But if they put out 8-10 new kits and 6 characters, that is getting in the range of 250-400 USD just for one of each kit, much less multiples. You overload customers, and split sales.

The previous system of making some mo0dels in the book, then adding a bunch of unit rules to follow up with models later is likely going to go away. Rules without units means other companies will exploit the gap and uncertainty to produce knockoffs.

I don't think we will see waves go away entirely though. I expect what we saw with Necrons. A first wave of models with the new book, and instead of unit entries with no models for a while, they already had models designedfor those models, with detailed art in the books. Then produce the models, but wait a few-six months for people to build their armies with the first wave models, buy multiples. There is still anticipation for the next wave due to the rules and art in the codex. Then when players have bought up the first wave, and have money available again, put out the second wave to get them to buy more, anddraw in new players with another spike of interest in the army.

Too many models at one time floods the market and reduces potential sales. Too long in between, with no preparation for the second wave, allows other companies to steal customers away with knockoffs. But the Necron approach seems what we will see in the future. One wavewith the book, a second wave already designed and produced or at least ready for production, but delayed to improve sales of the army in total.

Good news. sort of.
I like the fact that they are saying that Chaos is indeed coming out in yet another rumor. and it also makes sense to at least have pics of the new unit scupts. This will mitigate the third party market from making models that look just like the pics from the book, and pre-empting the release of GW models modelled after their own art work.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

How dare you HBMC, december is a very important month for GW. It's when they release all their army bundles/big box bundles that don't save you anything and 'hardsell' you on it so they can make up for the rest of the year.

Silly silly aussie. =oÞ

december is a very important month for GW. It's when they release all their army bundles/big box bundles that don't save you anything and 'hardsell' you on it so they can make up for the rest of the year.

It would be nice if people saved the criticism for when it is deserved. The bundle deals offered by GW last December had a roughly 35% discount built into them over buying their contents separately. One can hardly say that they "don't save you anything", that is a substantial discount which is why the ones for the two most popular model ranges sold out in a few days.

GW does a lot of things their customers don't like these days, like raising the price of the Land Raider by $8.25 US two years in a row (WTF?!?). There's plenty to criticize them about that is legitimate. The criticism over the December bundle deals based on last year's bundles, however, is not.

Agreed, there's enough reasons to complain about GW without making stuff up. The Megaforces were amazing deals.

Panic wrote:

Void Raven
Colossus
Flash gitz - There's one but fair enough.
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...
harpy
Mycetic spore pod

Griffon http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html
Hydra http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/HYDRA-FLAK-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT_.html
non-BR Dethkoptas http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440267a&prodId=prod1060174
shrikes... (warriors with wings.) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-WARRIOR-WINGS-CONVERSION-KIT.html
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-RIPPERS-WITH-WINGS.html
Ymgarl genestealers - tentacle heads are on the stealer sprue

So, one unit each for Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard.
One unit option for Eldar (the unit's out just not with one of the unit's options)
Three units for Tyranids (who just gained a tonne of new units).

Hardly terrible.

Newabortion wrote:I'm just wanting my fething storm troopers.

How 'bout my Ogryns?

Cadaver wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:You realize this would mean 3 months without any new releases?

No it wouldn't.

It would mean that a single book gets delayed 3 months. In those three months they release some other things for some other lines. They've always got stuff ready to go, and they could do it in stages. Start with 40K (WFB and LOTR releases stay as normal) and then once the production has shifted to cover larger amounts for 40K, start with Fantasy, and then to LOTR.

It needn't curb their release schedule at all. They could even make one of those months December when they never release anything important.

It boils down to production capacity. If GW were to delay a codex three months so they could release 3 months worth of product in support of it that product has to come from somewhere and so does the new product you propose they sell while they delay the release. If they only have the man power to produce 4 new kits and 4-5 new blisters and keep their warehouse stocked the only way they can build a stock to release 10 or more in a month is to stockpile. Let's use Chaos as an example... Say GW wants to release 10 new kits and 12 blisters.... If they tried to release them all in a single month the man power required would only allow for 2 other new kits and 3 blisters over the three months of build up. 2 kits and 3 blisters don't really fill up the release schedule of those first two months of waiting.

You're missing the larger point that GW is not simply releasing kits as they are finished being produced. They release kits when they fit into their sales schedule. GW has all kinds of backlog on kits ready for sale and just haven't been released yet. That's why we see rumors of finished kits sometimes years before release. Maybe the best example of this is the plastic daemon Prince, which was seen in publications and had leaked photos almost 2 years ahead of it's actual release.

First just because a design is completed and a mold is made doesn't mean they immediately start production. Fitting the manufacturing into the production schedule has been the reason for many codex delays and why we get a lot of conflicting rumored release dates. GW may have a backlog of things to produce but no company would waste its money manufacturing product without the window of a release date. It would be an improper use of short term financing and contribute to warehousing costs with zero return.

When you look at GW over the course of the year, do you think it's any coincidence that months with more than standard numbers of releases are preceded by months with fewer model releases, non-model, and low volumen items?-I don't.

I can't speak for other gamers, but never once have I wanted to buy a model, found out it was unavailable and thought to myself "Excellent, now I have something to look forward to!".

Scott-S6 wrote:

Panic wrote:

Void Raven
Colossus
Flash gitz - There's one but fair enough.
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...
harpy
Mycetic spore pod

Griffon http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html
Hydra http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/HYDRA-FLAK-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT_.html
non-BR Dethkoptas http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440267a&prodId=prod1060174
shrikes... (warriors with wings.) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-WARRIOR-WINGS-CONVERSION-KIT.html
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-RIPPERS-WITH-WINGS.html
Ymgarl genestealers - tentacle heads are on the stealer sprue

So, one unit each for Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard.
One unit option for Eldar (the unit's out just not with one of the unit's options)
Three units for Tyranids (who just gained a tonne of new units).

Hardly terrible.

That and the Guard Collossus looks almost identical in the book to the Forge World Bombard, so you can probably discount that one too

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Bretts aren't alone here. Wood Elves, Daemonhunters, Necrons and Dark Eldar all had their turn at this.

Blood Angel player here. We had an update WD codex with amazing exploding Rhinos in it, which we got after a LONG TIME. So let me think, 3rd Ed was released December 1998, we then got a rubbish WD codex with limited options in June/July 2007, which is 8 and a half years later, before they even bothered to make us a proper codex in 2010.

Trust me, waiting 8 and a half years just so you can get amazing exploding Rhinos and to also learn you don't get Sanguinary Priests anymore as an option is like recieveing a kick to the groin. Very painful. I'm just glad we got our priests back in 2010.

yeah,
Scott-S6 never said it was terrible, just making the list.
I've tidyed it up with your links and removed the DeffKopters and added the colossus it's basically a bombard.

Missing Codex Non Character Units
Void Raven.
harpy
Mycetic spore pod
Penal Legion
Flash gitz <- there's only one
Crypteks <- theres only one and there are many types in the codex entry
jet bike warlocks and seers... <- not available riding jetbikes

Missing Codex Non Character Units available only via Forge world
Colossus(FW bombard)
Griffon
Hydra
Shrikes... (warriors with wings.)
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings)

I agree looking at this it's pretty good.
Is this it or are we missing anything?

Panic...

Tibbsy wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Panic wrote:

Void Raven
Colossus
Flash gitz - There's one but fair enough.
Crypteks
jet bike warlocks and seers...
harpy
Mycetic spore pod

Griffon http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/VANAHEIM-PATTERN-GRIFFON.html
Hydra http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/HYDRA-FLAK-TANK-COMPLETE-KIT_.html
non-BR Dethkoptas http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440267a&prodId=prod1060174
shrikes... (warriors with wings.) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-WARRIOR-WINGS-CONVERSION-KIT.html
Sky-slasher swarms (rippers with wings) http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tyranids/TYRANID-RIPPERS-WITH-WINGS.html
Ymgarl genestealers - tentacle heads are on the stealer sprue

So, one unit each for Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Imperial Guard.
One unit option for Eldar (the unit's out just not with one of the unit's options)
Three units for Tyranids (who just gained a tonne of new units).

Hardly terrible.

That and the Guard Collossus looks almost identical in the book to the Forge World Bombard, so you can probably discount that one too

Gun looks similar, hull is not. Colossus is mounted on a Chimaera hull like the rest of the mobile artillery units. Bombard is on a Leman Russ hull.

Bubbalicious wrote:Im sorry to say this but its the most stupid whining i ever read...

You get everything at once, perfect! You can buy what you want from the start and dont have to proxy/make your own stuff for two years while you wait for it to come out.
Al the unit profiles are already in the codex so you already know what they do and what you want, only difference is you could now buy everything from the start if the rumor is true.

Its like whining about an army that has been out for two, three years that they already got al their minnies.so i wont start that army because i can buy everything for it and its not getting a new model....

I

THAT.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Online rules updates would be great, but I don't see it happening for a game marketed towards 12-year olds.

Oh, I don't know about that. Today's 12-year-olds are more at home online than the grognards of the 20th century. Then again, GW itself isn't. A company that has to shut down its own forums because too many people were saying bad things about them.... awww, diddums

They had forums?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:i can add a unit to the list of non existent models/boxsets

Deathwing termies.... i mean who wouldnt want the termy boxes all rolled into 1, both assault and shooty in the same box

Prediction: 2012

Mixed termy boxset £45 for 5

HA! We pay 47.39 GBP converted from Australian dollars at the moment!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UsdiThunder wrote:GW can learn a lot from MTG.

Right now MTG is previewing cards for their next 2 releases way ahead of the releases. Amazing isn't it. I can set aside money for the relase day.

WTF BRO? Where are these ravnica previews?

Tibbsy wrote:That and the Guard Collossus looks almost identical in the book to the Forge World Bombard, so you can probably discount that one too

Panic wrote:and added the colossus it's basically a bombard.

MajorWesJanson wrote:Gun looks similar, hull is not. Colossus is mounted on a Chimaera hull like the rest of the mobile artillery units. Bombard is on a Leman Russ hull.

Exactly - Colossus != Bombard although the bombard kit provides conversion fodder.

ChocolateGork wrote:

UsdiThunder wrote:GW can learn a lot from MTG.

Right now MTG is previewing cards for their next 2 releases way ahead of the releases. Amazing isn't it. I can set aside money for the relase day.

WTF BRO? Where are these ravnica previews?

I believe he means the next Planechase and the next Core sets.

Don't worry when Ravnica previews will be up at least 2 months before release. Unlike GW who will have it the week before release. This is the major issue with GW. No matter if it is Waves or one big Drop. They will not communicate with their customers. If I had a month or two lead time I could save up for their ridiculous prices.

Unfortunately GW still thinks it's planning the invasion of Normandy and must keep the secrets of the impending releases.

They had forums?

Yes, they certainly did. And they were heavily moderated. As well run as this forum is half the comments one sees here probably would not have been tolerated on the GW forums and I'm not counting the ones critical of GW, just the day to day inflammatory, insulting, thoughtless, inconsiderate and worthless dross that fills up most of the pages of any given topic on all the gamer forums one has likely ever seen. But GW decided to shut down their forums a few years ago. It's not difficult to come up with some good reasons why they may have done so, besides the expense of hosting and moderating them perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the liability risk given the kinds of posts one often sees on gamer forums. All it would have taken is one parent to sue over some rude, profane or potentially racist comment their child had seen or endured to cause GW unnecessary problems. You know, the kind of stuff one sadly sees on gamer forums routinely every day. :(

They also used a really bad set of forum software, which was well behind commonly available software of the day in terms of features and usability.

BrassScorpion wrote:

They had forums?

Yes, they certainly did. And they were heavily moderated. As well run as this forum is half the comments one sees here probably would not have been tolerated on the GW forums and I'm not counting the ones critical of GW, just the day to day inflammatory, insulting, thoughtless, inconsiderate and worthless dross that fills up most of the pages of any given topic on all the gamer forums one has likely ever seen. But GW decided to shut down their forums a few years ago. It's not difficult to come up with some good reasons why they may have done so, besides the expense of hosting and moderating them perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the liability risk given the kinds of posts one often sees on gamer forums. All it would have taken is one parent to sue over some rude, profane or potentially racist comment their child had seen or endured to cause GW unnecessary problems. You know, the kind of stuff one sadly sees on gamer forums routinely every day. :(

What are you talking about? SO a gaming company closes its forums because it can't handle their costumers and their costumers are the ones to blame? I wonder how the rest of the gaming industry some with much bigger comunities manages. Mindblowing the excuses people use to divert from the main point... wich is GW, again, choose to drop the ball and does not have a clue how to deal with reality and is stuck on a strange idea that everyone should worship everything they do.

The forums were a little ancient by the time they shut them down. Aside from that there was also the Chapter Approved section that had optional rules to playtest or just to use. As well as some nice converting and painting guides. The online store even sold bits. It is somewhat odd that a decade or so later the GW site regressed from being a community portal to store front.

BrassScorpion wrote:

They had forums?

Yes, they certainly did. And they were heavily moderated. As well run as this forum is half the comments one sees here probably would not have been tolerated on the GW forums and I'm not counting the ones critical of GW, just the day to day inflammatory, insulting, thoughtless, inconsiderate and worthless dross that fills up most of the pages of any given topic on all the gamer forums one has likely ever seen. But GW decided to shut down their forums a few years ago. It's not difficult to come up with some good reasons why they may have done so, besides the expense of hosting and moderating them perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the liability risk given the kinds of posts one often sees on gamer forums. All it would have taken is one parent to sue over some rude, profane or potentially racist comment their child had seen or endured to cause GW unnecessary problems. You know, the kind of stuff one sadly sees on gamer forums routinely every day. :(

They were moderated?? Every time I went there, practically the only things I saw were rude, profane, or potentially racist. That forum was a cesspit for every annoying kid you've ever met. Most threads degenerated into 1337 speak flame wars.

warboss wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:

They had forums?

Yes, they certainly did. And they were heavily moderated. As well run as this forum is half the comments one sees here probably would not have been tolerated on the GW forums and I'm not counting the ones critical of GW, just the day to day inflammatory, insulting, thoughtless, inconsiderate and worthless dross that fills up most of the pages of any given topic on all the gamer forums one has likely ever seen. But GW decided to shut down their forums a few years ago. It's not difficult to come up with some good reasons why they may have done so, besides the expense of hosting and moderating them perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the liability risk given the kinds of posts one often sees on gamer forums. All it would have taken is one parent to sue over some rude, profane or potentially racist comment their child had seen or endured to cause GW unnecessary problems. You know, the kind of stuff one sadly sees on gamer forums routinely every day. :(

They were moderated?? Every time I went there, practically the only things I saw were rude, profane, or potentially racist. That forum was a cesspit for every annoying kid you've ever met. Most threads degenerated into 1337 speak flame wars.

Just like most gamer forums...

warboss wrote:

BrassScorpion wrote:

They had forums?

Yes, they certainly did. And they were heavily moderated. As well run as this forum is half the comments one sees here probably would not have been tolerated on the GW forums and I'm not counting the ones critical of GW, just the day to day inflammatory, insulting, thoughtless, inconsiderate and worthless dross that fills up most of the pages of any given topic on all the gamer forums one has likely ever seen. But GW decided to shut down their forums a few years ago. It's not difficult to come up with some good reasons why they may have done so, besides the expense of hosting and moderating them perhaps they decided it wasn't worth the liability risk given the kinds of posts one often sees on gamer forums. All it would have taken is one parent to sue over some rude, profane or potentially racist comment their child had seen or endured to cause GW unnecessary problems. You know, the kind of stuff one sadly sees on gamer forums routinely every day. :(

They were moderated?? Every time I went there, practically the only things I saw were rude, profane, or potentially racist. That forum was a cesspit for every annoying kid you've ever met. Most threads degenerated into 1337 speak flame wars.

That did not happen in my case. As much as people complained about the GW forums now. To myself it had a great wealth of information generated from across the globe about the hobby.. To me the real reason for the closure of the forum was a financial one.

Like Black Gobbo.

and Army box sets.

and One man stores in the US.

All financial decisions in order to streamline their revenue resources.

AlexHolker wrote:

ChocolateGork wrote:

UsdiThunder wrote:GW can learn a lot from MTG.

Right now MTG is previewing cards for their next 2 releases way ahead of the releases. Amazing isn't it. I can set aside money for the relase day.

WTF BRO? Where are these ravnica previews?

I believe he means the next Planechase and the next Core sets.

No, he means the block after Core Set 2013 which is a Ravnica Revival block, like we had a Mirrodin Revival block before Innistrad.

UsdiThunder wrote:Right now MTG is previewing cards for their next 2 releases way ahead of the releases.

Kroothawk wrote:No, he means the block after Core Set 2013 which is a Ravnica Revival block, like we had a Mirrodin Revival block before Innistrad.

We know it's coming (4 months off ATM) which is definitely a good thing, but I haven't seen any card previews yet.

DarthOvious wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Bretts aren't alone here. Wood Elves, Daemonhunters, Necrons and Dark Eldar all had their turn at this.

Blood Angel player here. We had an update WD codex with amazing exploding Rhinos in it, which we got after a LONG TIME. So let me think, 3rd Ed was released December 1998, we then got a rubbish WD codex with limited options in June/July 2007, which is 8 and a half years later, before they even bothered to make us a proper codex in 2010.

Trust me, waiting 8 and a half years just so you can get amazing exploding Rhinos and to also learn you don't get Sanguinary Priests anymore as an option is like recieveing a kick to the groin. Very painful. I'm just glad we got our priests back in 2010.

As a witch hunters player I feel jealous of the BloodAngels WD codex. It was no where near as bad.