First, thread topic was just a light hearted jab, the reason for this thread is the fact that 6 months after the Dex release I see the "Flayed Ones are bad" meme has taken a hold of quite a few otherwise good, or at least seemingly good because I haven't actually played any of you, players.


Second, this was inspired by a recent thread in the Army List where a poster had FOs in his list and was lambasted by the majority for the audacity of having something different, or against the prevalent interweb grain. It just irks me when people attack somebody when it's obvious that they really haven't taken the time to consider a unit and are carbon copying what they've read that another poster posted, or read on a blog, written by some one originally who doesn't even play the codex in question to begin with. (I know this isn't always the case, by a great majority of codex reviews are written by bloggers who don't play that codex). I just don't understand why people can't respond with a little decorum (on the forum ), and say something like "That's an interesting take on army composition X," instead of "Well I've never actually played with that unit but the interwebs told me it was bad so you must be a complete newb even bringing it to the discussions, durhur derp." If people were going around saying the sky was green, and shouting down and making fun of anyone who said it was blue, the prevailing consensus would quickly become the sky is green, irridisunregadless of the validity of the statement. This, in a very brief synopsis, is memetics.

Anyway, all of that aside...the meat and potatoes of the thread.

I'll let the infinite wisdom of the interwebs educate you of the Flayed Ones perceived weaknesses, cause Khorn only knows there already is plenty of discourse of this nature. So, some of their strengths:

1.) Flayed Ones are tied with Warriors on a point for point basis as the most resilient base against the widest variety of weaponry in the entire codex. This means, if you can get them to shoot at the Flayed Ones (and every gun on your opponents side is going to be shooting at something) then they are inefficiently using every bullet. This is a difficult concept for many to embrace, but it works out in your favor.

2.) Flayed Ones are the only unit in the Dex that can infiltrate, and they have the obvious extra capability to deep strike which can be augmented by 2 different HQ's (Nemesor and Imothek). In fact, they are one of the few units that has zero down side to using Nemies phased reinforcements (the reason for this should be obvious).

3.) They are your only real Horde CC unit (scarabs kind of fit this role, but in a different manner). This means that units that are vulnerable to Horde CC (TH/SS termies the text book example) are going to be at a disadvantage against them.

4.) You can, and should, bring them big. Like 15 to 20 big. I think this is the number one reason for most of the negative perception. They enter a scene where MSU is king and they are intrinsically not optimized for that style of list construction. This combined with their deployment options (particularly infiltrate) can give them a massive threat range.

5.) They are more mobile then people realize. RP adds about 3" to their mobility, giving them roughly a 15" assault range, provided they are being shot at. If they are not being shot at, well, that means your dedicated CC unit that you deployed in your opponents face is not being shot (=win).

6.) They synergise well with a Destroyer Lord packing a res orb, which needs a whole thread of its own to properly appreciate, but suffice it to say a very under utilized and versatile unit, as it can jump its res orb goodness from unit to unit as required.

7.) As previously mentioned, they synergise quite well with Imo (3 to 4 turns of nightfighting that doesn't gimp them at all, and pin point DS) and Nemesor (phased reinforcements, Furious Charge/Counter Attack/Stealth granted to 15 to 20 bases at once).

8.) They are a perfect anvil to the hammer in quick strike Wraith Wing/Scarab Farm lists (using their large footprint as an area denial limiting the real estate the faster CC units have to cover).

9.) They are your most ideal at contesting objectives in your opponents deployment zone due to their high level or resilience coupled with their CC ability (versus Warriors/Immortals who can fold quite quickly to anything in CC).

10.) While this applies to every unit in the Cron Dex, Night Fighting. I mention it here because it is a rather vitally important point to their survivability, and it's something that differentiates them from similarly designed units from other codices (CC based infiltrators/DSers)

11.) They are a solid tarpit. Now, the current close combat resolution rules are a bit problematic here (as they are for all Horde based not fearless CC unit), but they are still Ld 10, meaning you can lose the combat by 2 and still have the same odds of passing your leadership test as Grey Hunters (with no loses) or Stubborn Guardsmen. So a little perspective here.

12.) People would be surprised how much damage mass S4 attacks can do against most vehicles (Read: rear armor 10). 10 Flayed Ones striking a combat speed vehicle have the same damage out put as 15 Warriors in rapid fire range (or 30 Warriors at 12.1 to 24" range). Obviously this can very greatly with Cruising Speed or Imobilized/Standing still, but this factor is greatly dependent upon careful orchestration and is one a good general can use to their advantage.


The most common criticism I see leveled against them is they don't fair well against unit X. But this is a silly form of argument. Quite literally every unit in the game has a set of Unit Xs it doesn't fair well against. In 6 months of playing with them (in the current Dex, 10 years playing with them overall but to be honest I was not a huge fan of the 3rd edition variety), I very rarely have seen an army made up of even 50% units I wouldn't pit my Flayed Ones against. In fact, in today's MSU crazed meta, even the nastiest of CC units I have little trouble out lasting with the Flayed Ones.


I've literally never regretted taking them, as their idiosyncrasies offer strategic flexibility not properly replicated elsewhere in the Codex. Now, that being said, I certainly wouldn't recommend them for any list, however the prevailingly CC oriented lists I've been running have proven them to be quite valuable.

/equip-flame-retardent-gear Fire Away My current schedule will keep me from replying till 7pm or so CST, so my apologies ahead of time.

Like this post has made me consider buying some Flayed ones now!

Oh, I FULLY agree with this. I've always seen them in a positive light (new models not counting).

Though, I suspect this may be because I'm an Ork player first, so I know how to appreciate larger numbs with mass T4 and S4

Their 4+ save, t4, and RP means they are surprisingly hard to completely wipe out, and their mass amount of attacks will mean they will make combat failure checks a narrow loss if it comes to that.

They also have interesting synergy with other HQ choices, particularly when given Furious Charge with Zandrekh.

Nice to see you resurecting my flaye ones tactics and expanding on them tenfold! I'm way too lazy to explain to people so many details as you have. Internet trolls and uninformed people tend to kill any idea of fielding anything but mainstream necrons. Flayed ones are definitely no scarab farm but they can do so much for such an overlooked unit.

If they were sold in a plastic pack of ten i would seriously consider buying some as a surprise CC element in my shooty army.

As said, with Zandy allowing them to DS in the enemies turn and giving them couter attack/furious charge = sweet!

I think such a list can be made for almost every unit:

They are more mobile then people realize. RP adds about 3" to their mobility, giving them roughly a 15" assault range, provided they are being shot at. If they are not being shot at, well, that means your dedicated CC unit that you deployed in your opponents face is not being shot (=win).

This for example is a bit weird. Adding 3" due to Reanimation protocols is correct, but I think it is a pseudo-win-win-situation. You try to get an advantage out of the fact that you are being shot at, and you ignore the fact, that not being shot at is not necessarily good (cc unit preparing to charge, shooting at something else more important etc.)

6.) They synergise well with a Destroyer Lord packing a res orb, which needs a whole thread of its own to properly appreciate, but suffice it to say a very under utilized and versatile unit, as it can jump its res orb goodness from unit to unit as required.

Well... who does not synergise with him? Are you advocating flayed ones or the Destroyer Lord?

12.) People would be surprised how much damage mass S4 attacks can do against most vehicles (Read: rear armor 10). 10 Flayed Ones striking a combat speed vehicle have the same damage out put as 15 Warriors in rapid fire range (or 30 Warriors at 12.1 to 24" range). Obviously this can very greatly with Cruising Speed or Imobilized/Standing still, but this factor is greatly dependent upon careful orchestration and is one a good general can use to their advantage.

Yes and how high is that damage? You will get about 2 glances out of 10 flayed ones. Insufficient to kill any vehicle. If you are lucky you get one better result than stunned out of it. 15 warriors are better btw because they hit on 3+. They will score about 3 glances which is not particularly good too. Flayed ones vs faster moving vehicles... Don't mention it...

They have some problems why people dont want to play them.

1. They suck against vehicles. S4 is only S4. (this could be changed with Zahndrekh, but then you need him too and Warriors also suck against vehicles...)
2. The morale problem you already mentioned (combat resolution)
3. They don't score
4. 15" or 12" action range: Infantry is slow. And you won't bring efficient masses to cope with that as orks do (you get 2 scoring ork boyz for 1 flayed one) or guard.
5. They are Ini 2. Every unit that has a decent number of attacks and some resilience will wipe them. (CSM, Grey Hunters, Bloodies, every colour of termies, TWC, Khorne Berzerkers... shall I continue? )
6. Horde-CC is not particularly effective as it has issues with tank shocks, difficult terrain and contradicts spread out deployment (either fewer guys will strike or templates will have more targets) It is also vulnerable to combat resolution, because they will lose more models normally.
7. Put a walker in them -> quiet...

Don't get me wrong, I wouldnt consider them unusable, many of your points are valid. Overall they are a cheap surprising presence on the battlefield. If you get something out of that, you should take them. But most people (not including me) prefer straight forward no brainer units...

-Nazdreg- wrote:I think such a list can be made for almost every unit:

They are more mobile then people realize. RP adds about 3" to their mobility, giving them roughly a 15" assault range, provided they are being shot at. If they are not being shot at, well, that means your dedicated CC unit that you deployed in your opponents face is not being shot (=win).

This for example is a bit weird. Adding 3" due to Reanimation protocols is correct, but I think it is a pseudo-win-win-situation. You try to get an advantage out of the fact that you are being shot at, and you ignore the fact, that not being shot at is not necessarily good (cc unit preparing to charge, shooting at something else more important etc.)

6.) They synergise well with a Destroyer Lord packing a res orb, which needs a whole thread of its own to properly appreciate, but suffice it to say a very under utilized and versatile unit, as it can jump its res orb goodness from unit to unit as required.

Well... who does not synergise with him? Are you advocating flayed ones or the Destroyer Lord?

12.) People would be surprised how much damage mass S4 attacks can do against most vehicles (Read: rear armor 10). 10 Flayed Ones striking a combat speed vehicle have the same damage out put as 15 Warriors in rapid fire range (or 30 Warriors at 12.1 to 24" range). Obviously this can very greatly with Cruising Speed or Imobilized/Standing still, but this factor is greatly dependent upon careful orchestration and is one a good general can use to their advantage.

Yes and how high is that damage? You will get about 2 glances out of 10 flayed ones. Insufficient to kill any vehicle. If you are lucky you get one better result than stunned out of it. 15 warriors are better btw because they hit on 3+. They will score about 3 glances which is not particularly good too. Flayed ones vs faster moving vehicles... Don't mention it...

They have some problems why people dont want to play them.

1. They suck against vehicles. S4 is only S4. (this could be changed with Zahndrekh, but then you need him too and Warriors also suck against vehicles...)
2. The morale problem you already mentioned (combat resolution)
3. They don't score
4. 15" or 12" action range: Infantry is slow. And you won't bring efficient masses to cope with that as orks do (you get 2 scoring ork boyz for 1 flayed one) or guard.
5. They are Ini 2. Every unit that has a decent number of attacks and some resilience will wipe them. (CSM, Grey Hunters, Bloodies, every colour of termies, TWC, Khorne Berzerkers... shall I continue? )
6. Horde-CC is not particularly effective as it has issues with tank shocks, difficult terrain and contradicts spread out deployment (either fewer guys will strike or templates will have more targets) It is also vulnerable to combat resolution, because they will lose more models normally.
7. Put a walker in them -> quiet...

Don't get me wrong, I wouldnt consider them unusable, many of your points are valid. Overall they are a cheap surprising presence on the battlefield. If you get something out of that, you should take them. But most people (not including me) prefer straight forward no brainer units...

Bingo. Flayed ones are ok but as a cost comparisson, for the cost of 20 flayed ones you can almost get 3 anni barges, which in most games will do more overall damage, and threaten a wide range of targets. Flayed ones are good against infantry, and necrons don't need help killing infantry with all the tesla and wraiths they have, they need to kill armor for the wraiths to get to work

There are definately units that kill infantry better. But as the OP said, a unit of 10-20 cc models appearign in your face will definately make an opponent reconsider their options.

In an apoc game where you could afford to field Imotekh and Zandy......they DS in on your opponents turn, without scatter. then when they charge in you give them FC (for free!) so they are now hitting at S5.

Blammy.

Praxiss wrote:There are definately units that kill infantry better. But as the OP said, a unit of 10-20 cc models appearign in your face will definately make an opponent reconsider their options.

In an apoc game where you could afford to field Imotekh and Zandy......they DS in on your opponents turn, without scatter. then when they charge in you give them FC (for free!) so they are now hitting at S5.

Blammy.

So you plop 20 flayed ones in range of your opponent to shoot, thus wasting nightfight because your opponent can just blow up the flayed ones so he's not wasting firepower elseware...? I could see fo's as a good diversion if you don't run pulses, or in a list centered around immo 100 percent (as they have a good chance of having a target)

-Nazdreg- wrote:
1. They suck against vehicles. S4 is only S4. (this could be changed with Zahndrekh, but then you need him too and Warriors also suck against vehicles...)
2. The morale problem you already mentioned (combat resolution)

A unit of 15 will have an average of 30 hits when assaulting a vehicle that's moved at combat speed, resulting in about 5 glances. That's enough to do some damage, or at least preventing it from firing.

A group of 15 will have 60 attacks on the charge. Against ws4 and t4, that's 15 wounds. That's 12-13 dead orks, and 2-3 dead terminators as a comparison. They suffer considerably less to PF's than Wraiths (who would be ID'd) and are more able to withstand the "thousand papercuts" approach of Orks in close combat.

Two Annihilation barges are going to kill about 4 space marines, 10 orks, or two terminators, depending on what you fire at. Then again, the two aren't exactly competing for the same slot...

The same way I tend to think of gauss immortals or warriors as pseudo dire avengers, I tend to see flayed ones a little like striking scorpions. Now I like striking scorpions, or at least the thought behind them. I love rolling dice, if a units main objective can be accomplished by weight of interactions, I'm a happy boy, but that often lends itself to a lack of versatility.

I'm already forced to take a lot of solid, mid threat range units who's primary application involves being alarming and being reasonably good at killing dudes and soaking up return fire. My options to shore up other list building essentials are expensive and awkward to purchase in the necron codex, especially when trying not to rely so much on killing things in CC (transports come to mind). I just have a hard time justifying them. They seem like a really cute unit though, and you are giving me an impression that they have some hidden utility that I've been finding my necrons otherwise lacking.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not really great at this game, but I do tend to remember the things I've been taught, so I'd love to hear some more on their usage, especially with the destroyer lord. But thinking about that already makes me feel uncomfortable, I have so much less ability to deal with tanks in the movement or shooting phase when I sub out a barge for a destroyer lord. That means fewer squads on the ground in the assault phase, and less ability for my wraiths or whatnot to tie up shooting, or my destructors to eliminate it before hand.
See how conservative I am? I'm practically reaching for a glass of scotch just thinking about it.

Zid wrote:Bingo. Flayed ones are ok but as a cost comparisson, for the cost of 20 flayed ones you can almost get 3 anni barges, which in most games will do more overall damage, and threaten a wide range of targets. Flayed ones are good against infantry, and necrons don't need help killing infantry with all the tesla and wraiths they have, they need to kill armor for the wraiths to get to work

Flayed ones are OK I guess. If they could score, they would be much better.

Wraiths fill the same role, just much better. They are one of the best units in the game currently.

A unit of 15 will have an average of 30 hits when assaulting a vehicle that's moved at combat speed, resulting in about 5 glances. That's enough to do some damage, or at least preventing it from firing.

A group of 15 will have 60 attacks on the charge. Against ws4 and t4, that's 15 wounds. That's 12-13 dead orks, and 2-3 dead terminators as a comparison. They suffer considerably less to PF's than Wraiths (who would be ID'd) and are more able to withstand the "thousand papercuts" approach of Orks in close combat.

Two Annihilation barges are going to kill about 4 space marines, 10 orks, or two terminators, depending on what you fire at. Then again, the two aren't exactly competing for the same slot...

ok do you really think from 15 guys charging, all will be able to strike and do you really think that the vehicle that moved combat speed didnt kill any of them?

OK yep 15 guys charging 30 boyz (about the same points cost) will kill 12-13 boyz and 30 boyz will kill about 6-7 flayed ones losing 5 more. Yep the flayed ones will win this. Barely. When the boyz are the ones who charge, its a different thing. 30 slugga boyz will wipe out the entire squad before they even strike on average. Yes boyz are still better than flayed ones, and they score. And they are far harder to take down with shooting.

But thats another vacuum comparison that doesnt work.

Why does everyone keep wanting obvious Anti-Infantry units to take out vehicles? Taking out vehicles is not their forte
With infiltrate you can place a massive slab o' infantry directly infront of a beatstick i.e. Hammernators and force them to either engage or go around. They are elite-hunters.

labmouse42 wrote:

Zid wrote:Bingo. Flayed ones are ok but as a cost comparisson, for the cost of 20 flayed ones you can almost get 3 anni barges, which in most games will do more overall damage, and threaten a wide range of targets. Flayed ones are good against infantry, and necrons don't need help killing infantry with all the tesla and wraiths they have, they need to kill armor for the wraiths to get to work

Flayed ones are OK I guess. If they could score, they would be much better.

Wraiths fill the same role, just much better. They are one of the best units in the game currently.

Agreed, Flayed Ones should have been a troops choice.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I think such a list can be made for almost every unit:

Of course, GW employs a team of well paid, experienced, full time game designers and testers. Now they are not perfect, but I think it takes a fair amount of hubris to assume a few moments playing with plastic toy soldiers in your spair time arms you with a better perspective then someone who does this for a living (point is, my list of "non-competitve" units is substantially shorter then most, particularly out of any modern codex).

Now, I truly do appreciate Nazdreg's post as he highlights some of the common misconceptions that are out there:

This for example is a bit weird. Adding 3" due to Reanimation protocols is correct, but I think it is a pseudo-win-win-situation. You try to get an advantage out of the fact that you are being shot at, and you ignore the fact, that not being shot at is not necessarily good (cc unit preparing to charge, shooting at something else more important etc.)

If they are not being shot at (assuming because they are out of assault range) then they are compounding the problem for the next turn. It's win-win for me, I'll take the extra 3" or the extra 3 bases (or whatever the case may be).

Well... who does not synergise with him? Are you advocating flayed ones or the Destroyer Lord?

Well, the point was, by the intrinsic nature of the Res Orb, a large group of FOs is going to benefit more then pretty much anything else (besides Warriors). Also, Flayed Ones are one of the only units that have RP and can't bring their own Res Orb.

Yes and how high is that damage? You will get about 2 glances out of 10 flayed ones. Insufficient to kill any vehicle. If you are lucky you get one better result than stunned out of it. 15 warriors are better btw because they hit on 3+. They will score about 3 glances which is not particularly good too. Flayed ones vs faster moving vehicles... Don't mention it...

False. FOs get 4 attacks on the charge, so 40(1/2)=20 just as 30(2/3)=20. 3 glances is enough to stun a tank and likely do a bit of damage, more importantly if properly situated surround the tank so the squishy bits cannot disembark, and you get auto hits on it the next turn (surely you see where this is going yes?)

1. They suck against vehicles. S4 is only S4. (this could be changed with Zahndrekh, but then you need him too and Warriors also suck against vehicles...)

/shrug I would say 1 glance/5 bases is decent enough. A 5 man squad with a melta doesn't average a glance a turn (granted, the upper end of their damage is obviously higher). Anyway, in a focused CC Necron Army with Wraiths, Scarabs, VB/PC Triarch Praetorians, Destroyer Lords...why would the FOs need to kill tanks?

2. The morale problem you already mentioned (combat resolution)

Granted, but this isn't nearly as big of an issue as people make it. Keep in mind they have Ld 10, so they have to be losing combat by a good margin to make this die roll unfavorable.

3. They don't score

Ummmmm.....and? This is the most overly used line of rhetoric against any unit people percieve as 'bad." I have two secrets for you, a.) neither does anything else in the game not in the troop FOS and b.) contesting an objective, for all intensive canned porpoises, is good enough, barring you have the right amount of scoring potential anyway.

4. 15" or 12" action range: Infantry is slow. And you won't bring efficient masses to cope with that as orks do (you get 2 scoring ork boyz for 1 flayed one) or guard.

They have the same net assault range (roughly with the RP shenanigans) of any rhino based CC unit, and they have the capability of being placed virtually anywhere on the battlefield. With competent placement and a keen eye, their speed isn't a very big issue.

5. They are Ini 2. Every unit that has a decent number of attacks and some resilience will wipe them. (CSM, Grey Hunters, Bloodies, every colour of termies, TWC, Khorne Berzerkers... shall I continue? )

This statement varies from completely false (I assure you they will beat TH/SS termies, the percieved "kings" of CC, 75 to 85% of the time depending on who gets the charge), to mostly false. People act like they are guard. They have the same net resilience in CC as a Space Marine against normal attacks and better agains power weapons. Now, granted, you've got to get through CC to get the RP roll, but with their weight of attacks this shouldn't be an issue agaisnt most units.

An illustration if you will:

Take a group of 15 FOs getting charged. It takes 40 S4 WS4 non PW attacks (on average) just to kill 5, RP not withstanding. The FOs will strike back with 30(1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=2.5 (assuming MEQ target). So they lose combat by 2 or 3, take a leadership test on a 7 or and 8 (favorable die roll), get 1 to 2 back because of RP, and now they are fighting a weakened opponent who no longer will get the benefit of the charge. The thing is, this is incredibly unlikely. In the MSU world you rarely come accross a unit with 40 S4 WS 4 attacks, and thats granting them the charge.

6. Horde-CC is not particularly effective as it has issues with tank shocks, difficult terrain and contradicts spread out deployment (either fewer guys will strike or templates will have more targets) It is also vulnerable to combat resolution, because they will lose more models normally.

Theres some validity to this statment, but its a rather minor issues. Just like any unit, once you've used it enough you will find ways to overcome minor shortfalls.

7. Put a walker in them -> quiet...

CC walker, sure. Rifleman/Psyfleman/basically any "Shooty" walker? I'll take that fight any day of the week and twice on Sundays (to win the tournement ). Math hammer it out, the Flayed Ones might not be able to damage the walker but at the same time the walker aint doing jack to them either, if they can keep him tied up long enough for a DLord or Wraith to come punch him in the taint=win.

-Nazdreg- wrote:ok do you really think from 15 guys charging, all will be able to strike and do you really think that the vehicle that moved combat speed didnt kill any of them?

OK yep 15 guys charging 30 boyz (about the same points cost) will kill 12-13 boyz and 30 boyz will kill about 6-7 flayed ones losing 5 more. Yep the flayed ones will win this. Barely. When the boyz are the ones who charge, its a different thing. 30 slugga boyz will wipe out the entire squad before they even strike on average. Yes boyz are still better than flayed ones, and they score. And they are far harder to take down with shooting.

But thats another vacuum comparison that doesnt work.

My primary race is orks. I KNOW that, with charging vehicles, it's not hard at all to get 15 models into combat.

30 Ork slugga boyz (without a nob... though I don't know why one would not include one) will wipe out the flayed ones - but only assuming every single one is in combat. When one takes that into consideration, only just over half the Flayed ones are wiped away. But this is an awkward environment for comparison, since even Orks fall over when assaulted - being assaulted is baaaad.

Regardless, if 15 Flayed Ones assaulted 30 orks, they would (mathhammer wise) win combat by the the end of the second assault phase, with half of their unit remaining. One must remember the Fearless wounds Orks would suffer, as well as the reanimation protocols bringing flayed ones back. The Orks have lost 180pts, the necron player has lost 90pts.

With Wraiths on the other hand would perform better if there was no Nob with a Powerklaw. Which is unheard of!

I don't think Flayed Ones are amazing, but I certainly don't think they are useless in any way.

-Nazdreg- wrote:

OK yep 15 guys charging 30 boyz (about the same points cost) will kill 12-13 boyz and 30 boyz will kill about 6-7 flayed ones losing 5 more. Yep the flayed ones will win this. Barely. When the boyz are the ones who charge, its a different thing. 30 slugga boyz will wipe out the entire squad before they even strike on average. Yes boyz are still better than flayed ones, and they score. And they are far harder to take down with shooting.

But thats another vacuum comparison that doesnt work.

Wait...Flayed Ones with the charge should come out with 7 or 8 bases left (you seem to have left out RP), not sure I would call that barely. Now the orks will certainly win if they get the charge as well, and quite demonstrably. Against shooting, it's largly dependent on having cover, which you pointed out yourself isn't easy for 30 boys to pull off. Also, boys can't infiltratte or deep strike, and don't have access to multiple turns of night fighting. (as you said...vacuum).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kharrak wrote:

I don't think Flayed Ones are amazing, but I certainly don't think they are useless in any way.

^^^ A thousand times this. Wraiths are great, but there is only 3 FA slots, and I'm particularly fond of just about everything you can get out of it.

More valid comparisons would be the other Elite slot choices, none of which completely trump Flayed Ones IMHO.

Do I worry about flayed ones? No.

Can't say the same about wraiths.

imweasel wrote:Do I worry about flayed ones? No.

Can't say the same about wraiths.

Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

I worry about 15ish models ds'ing in my face if they can shoot. Something that just sits there after ds'ing? Not so much...

imweasel wrote:Do I worry about flayed ones? No.

Can't say the same about wraiths.

Honestly though, how often have you actually faced 15 to 20 Flayed Ones?

I mean, I don't stay up at nights worrying about Chuck Norris smashing my skull in either...I'm sure that perception would change after one round house kick to the face.

Deep striking on your opponents turn after they move from reserve can be quite good. It will allow you to deploy the flayed ones on a weak flank where they can be expected to be the strongest thing on that side. How do you do that? A refused flank deployment by the Necrons can be countered by deploying, from reserve, on thier side of the board. This opens up the opposite side as a potential target for the flayed ones.

I also like the infiltrating aspect. It can keep scouting Vendettas away from your lines before turn 1 and scouting Baal's. I'm not saying flayed ones are the cats meow, but time and time again good generals find ways to win with units most other people think are no good. Keep an open mind.

imweasel wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

I worry about 15ish models ds'ing in my face if they can shoot. Something that just sits there after ds'ing? Not so much...

Okay, do I WORRY bout them? Nah, they can't assault now, they're not an immediate threat. But they do make me think. I can either spend fire on them, that I'd normally be allocating to other stuff, and leave his main force that much stronger, or I can skimp on targeting the FOs, and risk getting sliced up when they charge. Not always an easy choice.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

imweasel wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

I worry about 15ish models ds'ing in my face if they can shoot. Something that just sits there after ds'ing? Not so much...

Okay, do I WORRY bout them? Nah, they can't assault now, they're not an immediate threat. But they do make me think. I can either spend fire on them, that I'd normally be allocating to other stuff, and leave his main force that much stronger, or I can skimp on targeting the FOs, and risk getting sliced up when they charge. Not always an easy choice.

Of course. But at least you can do something before the hammer falls. There is a huge difference. I have to pro-actively stop deep strikers or change my deployment RADICALLY based on a shooting deep strike unit.

I may have to react to a melee deep strike unit, but at least I get that opportunity.

imweasel wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

imweasel wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

I worry about 15ish models ds'ing in my face if they can shoot. Something that just sits there after ds'ing? Not so much...

Okay, do I WORRY bout them? Nah, they can't assault now, they're not an immediate threat. But they do make me think. I can either spend fire on them, that I'd normally be allocating to other stuff, and leave his main force that much stronger, or I can skimp on targeting the FOs, and risk getting sliced up when they charge. Not always an easy choice.

Of course. But at least you can do something before the hammer falls. There is a huge difference. I have to pro-actively stop deep strikers or change my deployment RADICALLY based on a shooting deep strike unit.

I may have to react to a melee deep strike unit, but at least I get that opportunity.

Yes, that is truth.

I don't think Flayed Ones are amazing, but I certainly don't think they are useless in any way.

I support this also actually.

They are definitely not useless. imho the new Necron codex has close to 0 useless units. Maybe the doomsday ark. I am also not a big fan of the ghost ark. But you can always do something with a unit that is decent in assault coming over a flank.

A squad of boyz that can infiltrate cost a whopping 10 points per model.

TedNugent wrote:A squad of boyz that can infiltrate cost a whopping 10 points per model.

That's pretty expensive considering it makes them almost twice as expensive, and for 3 points more you get +1S, a 4+ save, RP, access to Night Fighting...or was that your point? Sorry if it isn't clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Nazdreg- wrote:

I don't think Flayed Ones are amazing, but I certainly don't think they are useless in any way.

I support this also actually.

They are definitely not useless. imho the new Necron codex has close to 0 useless units. Maybe the doomsday ark. I am also not a big fan of the ghost ark. But you can always do something with a unit that is decent in assault coming over a flank.

Word.

I have a feeling Doomsday Arks would do well in a Maximum Range, two turns of Solar Pulses, list focusing on everything with 36"+ weapons (Harps, TArrows, HDs, Heavy Gauss touting Stalkers, etc). I've written the list up on paper but for financial reasons haven't delved into it yet.

ShadarLogoth - Great topic for a post, points well made.

I'm now going back to look at Flayed Ones and their capabilities cos of this. Infiltrating is a PIA to deal with imho, so that raises the fun factor!

A lot of my lists focus on surprising the opponent with something out of the ordinary, as I find that a lot of opponents can't cope with their plan being disrupted. Sounds like I've overlooked a key unit.

I'll second the points already made about not assessing units in a vacuum (particularly if you've never played with them).

I'd add that any unit needs to have its purpose in the strategy of the list (and the tactics of how you are going to play it) clearly determined. I don't believe whacking points efficient units like wraiths, CCB or anni barges into a list, without clearly making sure they have synergy and a role, is going to work as well as flayed ones in a list where their role is defined and played to. But that's a question of generalship isn't it?

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I have a feeling Doomsday Arks would do well in a Maximum Range, two turns of Solar Pulses, list focusing on everything with 36"+ weapons (Harps, TArrows, HDs, Heavy Gauss touting Stalkers, etc). I've written the list up on paper but for financial reasons haven't delved into it yet.

Love to see this too. I'd also like to hear more about situational use of the FO and coordinating with a destroyer lord in more situations. FO are the sort of unit that are very easy to make arbitrary comparisons to and try to rule out. You can describe a potential usage of them, and someone will relate that to some easy example where the tactic will not work as well. Their usage seems quite diverse though, and it seems like they can create quite a few situations where they will be doing their job whether your opponent is trying to react to them or not, though they are not flashy, and don't really do much except assault dudes and have a big threatening footprint, they are very versatile in the ways they can be used, so arbitrary counterpoints don't seem to suffice when determining how useful they can be.
I get the feeling they require either a lot of support or a disparity of generalship or somewhat ideal situations to be working well for you in a mech metagame though. I'm especially curious about deployment vs avoiding being unfavorably countercharged or eliminated via shooting and tactics around dealing with fast or sturdy vehicles in a close combat necron list with FO.

I'm waiting to see what happens with assaults in 6th ed before I start spending any money on flayed ones. There stats have never really appealed to me, especially that ini 2, but I do like the strategic options they open up.
I run a shooty army anyways. Not even taking any wraiths currently, for which I'm sure I would earn some derision.

Flayed ones aren't awful but in order to bring them you will be losing out on Wraiths, Barges/Scythes and scoring units. They may not be unusable but they dont fill a needed role. Most Cron armies need more anti-tank in order to allow wraiths to effectively charge embarked squads. Destroyer Lords are ok but a CCB with an Overlord with weave and scythe is FAR more intimidating. It denies cover, snipes models, its AV13 and can generate its own cover. The Barge also meshes nicely with the Wraiths as it has comparable speed. In order to be efficient at opening up vehicles you either need a bit of Tesla or you need a Scarab farm and I would venture to guess that in neither list could you comfortably fit Wraiths and the Flayed Ones.

Not to mention that the Flayed Ones can barely beat basic troops such as Grey Hunters, Blood Angels ASMs or Purifiers. If I am going to take a unit that has no duality, it better be damn good at its job. The Flayed Ones are not. They are slow and generally only threaten vehicles.

I think they can work with some above average generalship but I do believe that they are one of the weaker units in the Cron codex. I'd definitely take a stalker first.

LValx wrote:Not to mention that the Flayed Ones can barely beat basic troops such as Grey Hunters, Blood Angels ASMs or Purifiers. If I am going to take a unit that has no duality, it better be damn good at its job. The Flayed Ones are not. They are slow and generally only threaten vehicles.

Eh? A healthy sized unit of flayed ones would tear through Grey Hunters and BA ASM's with minimal casualties. The former matching the flayed one's cost, while the latter exceeds it notably.

Purifiers are elites, a full squad being nearly twice the price of a healthy sized flayed one squad - as such it's no surprise that it would be a very one-sided fight. With force weapons and hammerhand, everything would be very nervous going into assault with them, Walkers would feel most confident.. At half a squad, they'd lose one more member the the flayed ones, but they would still pose a significant threat to any non-walker in close combat. Wraiths? Whip coils would help, but with NFW's, one would lose a wraith for every wound suffered.

They may not be unusable but they dont fill a needed role. Most Cron armies need more anti-tank

This is also correct. As Nec I can deploy an absurd firepower vs Infantry that imho even makes DE Venomspam envious. So normally I don't need flayed ones, they are a solid choice and perform far better than warriors. This is because warriors are scoring bodies, not more.

This is an awesome topic and I agree.

IMO, Flayed Ones have been given a bad press simply because the other choices in the Codex are better.

Flayed Ones are not awful. They do have a use.

I've seen them put to good use in an Imotekh/Zahndrekh list, combining the Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs and Zahndrekh's deep strike in their turn rule.

The opponent didn't know what to shoot at and subsequently lost the game.

Imotekh + Destroyer Lord

Bloodswarm deep strike them a squad of 20 + destroy next to a unit.

Yeah, you're not getting anywhere!

I managed to make my Flayed Ones from the spare Ghost Ark Necron bodies when I made Doomsday Arks. I used green stuff to fill in the missing body gaps to represent flesh.

I would show you my example, but I don't have my camera with me right now.

Hell I would use them for outflanking. Imagine a unit of 20 flayed ones showing up on one of your flanks? Give em furious charge and watch them go to town on that backfield. Finally got my unit of 20 metal ones so I am excited about that.

My problem with them has always been, in a list where I am struggling to afford the things I know will work well, I don't exactly have points to spare on disposable units that might do what i want them to accomplish...

Blackgaze wrote:Imotekh + Destroyer Lord

Bloodswarm deep strike them a squad of 20 + destroy next to a unit.

Yeah, you're not getting anywhere!

I managed to make my Flayed Ones from the spare Ghost Ark Necron bodies when I made Doomsday Arks. I used green stuff to fill in the missing body gaps to represent flesh.

I would show you my example, but I don't have my camera with me right now.

Awful tactic, you've just given the opponent something they can actually see and shoot through nightfight. If they could DS and assault, sure. But alas, they cannot and therefore it is a terrible idea. Try this against my GK's and ill incinerate them and they will all die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kharrak wrote:

LValx wrote:Not to mention that the Flayed Ones can barely beat basic troops such as Grey Hunters, Blood Angels ASMs or Purifiers. If I am going to take a unit that has no duality, it better be damn good at its job. The Flayed Ones are not. They are slow and generally only threaten vehicles.

Eh? A healthy sized unit of flayed ones would tear through Grey Hunters and BA ASM's with minimal casualties. The former matching the flayed one's cost, while the latter exceeds it notably.

Purifiers are elites, a full squad being nearly twice the price of a healthy sized flayed one squad - as such it's no surprise that it would be a very one-sided fight. With force weapons and hammerhand, everything would be very nervous going into assault with them, Walkers would feel most confident.. At half a squad, they'd lose one more member the the flayed ones, but they would still pose a significant threat to any non-walker in close combat. Wraiths? Whip coils would help, but with NFW's, one would lose a wraith for every wound suffered.

Purifiers are commonly taken as troops.

15 Flayed ones is about 200 pts,
9 Grey hunters + WG with fist and double melta + standard is about the same cost (cheaper in fact)

If the GHs get the charge they easily win combat due to the fist and standard. If they are charged they still win combat by a small amount. The GH's also have the ability to take a transport for added defense, they always get a charge bonus and they can shoot. I am sorry the Flayed Ones are overcosted for what they do. ASM's arent much more in price either. 10 with Jump Packs, PW and 2 Meltas runs slightly more than 200 and will generally have both FC and FNP. The FNP alone will generally tip the assault in the ASM favor. Since they are faster they will also generally receive the charge and on the charge they should be able to wipe out 5-6. Losing hardly any in return (maybe 1).

As I said, the Flayed Ones could be played by a competent general but dont get it twisted. They are points inefficient compared to most of the Cron codex. When you have such under-costed units as Wraiths, CCBS, Overlords, Anni Barges, Spyders and Scarabs, why waste time on something that is sub par?

LValx wrote:
15 Flayed ones is about 200 pts,
9 Grey hunters + WG with fist and double melta + standard is about the same cost (cheaper in fact)

If the GHs get the charge they easily win combat due to the fist and standard. If they are charged they still win combat by a small amount. The GH's also have the ability to take a transport for added defense, they always get a charge bonus and they can shoot. I am sorry the Flayed Ones are overcosted for what they do. ASM's arent much more in price either. 10 with Jump Packs, PW and 2 Meltas runs slightly more than 200 and will generally have both FC and FNP. The FNP alone will generally tip the assault in the ASM favor. Since they are faster they will also generally receive the charge and on the charge they should be able to wipe out 5-6. Losing hardly any in return (maybe 1).

As I said, the Flayed Ones could be played by a competent general but dont get it twisted. They are points inefficient compared to most of the Cron codex. When you have such under-costed units as Wraiths, CCBS, Overlords, Anni Barges, Spyders and Scarabs, why waste time on something that is sub par?

No they are not, you're paying for exactly what they are capable of doing. The, "they don't fill a roll" meme is only accurate if the only two rolls in the game are anti-tank and anti-infantry...which is an extremely limited way to look at the game. They are an infiltrating/deep striking CC unit capable of handling the vast majority of units actually fielded in the game.

Take your GH example. First of all, that's rarely how the Grey Hunters are actually fielded, most squads are smaller. Second of all, that example is lacking a transport for the Grey Hunters, which never happens. Flayed Ones are already "paying for" their transport, your assessment is inaccurate if you ignore this, as Grey Hunters are basically worthless without the Rino. Third, yes, if Grey Hunters use their Once Per game and if ASM have a Priest near by the statistics are skewed in their favor. But if we're going to assume the absolute best case scenario for what ever the Flayed Ones are fight why can't we do the same for the Flayed Ones? Like say they have an attached DLord with a res orb in the same army as Zandrehk and now they are striking with FC or have CA? Or what if they do a coordinated assault with some Whip Coil touting Wraiths? Now the Flayed Ones are winning combat quite easily against the units you mentioned.

This is why this unit in a vacuum none-sense is just that...none-sense. No competent played is going to put a unit in a gakky position just to full fill some silly forum discussion scenario. Most importantly, it says absolutely nothing of the opportunity cost these units paid when they had to engage with the Flayed Ones.


This is the mistake people make when appraising units the interwebs have told them they are not suppose to like, "well, if the stars are aligned exactly against the unit at all times they will never be good."
Seriously?

And if I roll nothing but 6's I can rule the universe with Gretchin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Awful tactic, you've just given the opponent something they can actually see and shoot through nightfight. If they could DS and assault, sure. But alas, they cannot and therefore it is a terrible idea. Try this against my GK's and ill incinerate them and they will all die.

ORLY?

And for some reason the rest of the Necron Army is just standing at their board edge not engaging you at all and crossing their fingers that the "Flayed One" gambit will pull off an upset?

Don't be silly.

Also, assuming an average of 15" distance, Night Fighting is gonna take a (1/6) of your fire power away by itself (just because the Flayed Ones are close to one unit doesn't mean they are close to all of your units). I know you think 2 to 3 turns into the game when you've suffered 2 to 3 turns worth of casualties you will be able to pull this off...but you are either going to commit way too much of your fire power to the Flayed Ones putting you at a distinct disadvantage to the Wraiths, Scarabs, etc coming at you from the other direction, or your going to just whittle away a chunk of them, granting them greater mobility via RP placement, and then your going to be assaulted the next turn.

You do realize that 10 GH in a rhino with 2xmelta and a standard are 200pts, which is very close to 15 flayed ones.

GH score, can shoot, have anti-tank and are good at fighting.

While flayed ones do have a role, they are not the equal to grey hunters.

Of course, there are few units out there as good as GH over all.

imweasel wrote:You do realize that 10 GH in a rhino with 2xmelta and a standard are 200pts, which is very close to 15 flayed ones.

GH score, can shoot, have anti-tank and are good at fighting.

While flayed ones do have a role, they are not the equal to grey hunters.

Of course, there are few units out there as good as GH over all.

Yes but he gave them a Wolf Guard, which was necessary to make his "they will beat Flayed Ones regardless of who gets the charge" argument. Take away the WG and the Flayed Ones are more then capable of taking out the Grey Hunters.

And Flayed Ones have anti-tank as well, it's called 60 S4 attacks against rear armor 10...but thats not their intended role, just something they can do in a pinch.

And for the last time "they can score" is a meaningless statement, after about 3 to 4 scoring units (depending on the army and the resiliency of the troops) the marginal returns of more scoring units is basically zero. I have warriors (or immortals), I don't need more of them. I need things that they don't do, like infiltrate, deep strike, and operate competently in assault.

Theyed be fine IF

1) fearless or stubborn(I dont know how they aren't)
2) Were troop choices, its ok if they cant score(or maybe even outside of FOC like the fluff)
3) didnt cost $45 for 5(read that again)$180 for a block of 20!
4) if the models looked good and/or the same as the old ones)

ShadarLogoth wrote:Yes but he gave them a Wolf Guard, which was necessary to make his "they will beat Flayed Ones regardless of who gets the charge" argument. Take away the WG and the Flayed Ones are more then capable of taking out the Grey Hunters.

And Flayed Ones have anti-tank as well, it's called 60 S4 attacks against rear armor 10...but thats not their intended role, just something they can do in a pinch.

And for the last time "they can score" is a meaningless statement, after about 3 to 4 scoring units (depending on the army and the resiliency of the troops) the marginal returns of more scoring units is basically zero. I have warriors (or immortals), I don't need more of them. I need things that they don't do, like infiltrate, deep strike, and operate competently in assault.

I didn't give them a wolf guard. Have you actually ran any numbers on how this scenario works out?

Your 15 strong FO deep strike in. GH jump out of the rhino and shoots the squad. 3 die and you get 1 back with RP. You now have 13 left. I pop the standard in your shooting phase and you assault me. Assuming I make my 70% chance of counter charge, I get 30 swings. After all the re-rolls, you lose 5 more. You are down to 8 guys left. You swing 32 times, get 8 wounds I lose 2-3 marines.

How in the world you get an 'auto win' out of this very common scenario is beyond me.

And ONE dread getting into cc makes every...single...flayed...one...completely and utterly useless.

Flayed ones have their uses, but they are not even as close to useful as a very common GH squad.

imweasel wrote:
Your 15 strong FO deep strike in. GH jump out of the rhino and shoots the squad. 3 die and you get 1 back with RP. You now have 13 left. I pop the standard in your shooting phase and you assault me. Assuming I make my 70% chance of counter charge, I get 30 swings. After all the re-rolls, you lose 5 more. You are down to 8 guys left. You swing 32 times, get 8 wounds I lose 2-3 marines.

How in the world you get an 'auto win' out of this very common scenario is beyond me.

Where did I say auto win, I said more then capable? And why stop the scenario where you did (because your once per game and Counter Attack have expired and the numbers are no longer in your favor)? Lets assume I only kill 2 marines but I get 2 Flayed Ones back from RP. Now it's 10 versus 8, the GH kill 16(1/2)(1/2)(1/2)=2 and the FOs strike back with 24(1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=2. Now its a war of attrition that the Flayed Ones should win because they have a.) RP negating a third of their casualties and b.) have more numbers to begin with.

If that doesn't fit your description of "more then capable" then I would posit your standards of acceptability are irrationally high for a unit you simply don't want to like (maybe because the models are ugly and expensive?)

And ONE dread getting into cc makes every...single...flayed...one...completely and utterly useless.

Yeah and guess what else is useless, the pair of long range shooting weapons hanging from the Dreads shoulders (a Dread with no Dread CC weapons kills between .278 and .370 FOs/turn...OH NOOOS!). Or were you talking about the incredibly rare, doesn't appear in most tournament lists, Dedicated CC Dread? Yeah ok sure, I guess....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exalted Pariah wrote:Theyed be fine IF

1) fearless or stubborn(I dont know how they aren't)
2) Were troop choices, its ok if they cant score(or maybe even outside of FOC like the fluff)
3) didnt cost $45 for 5(read that again)$180 for a block of 20!
4) if the models looked good and/or the same as the old ones)

1) Is some what mitigated by Ld 10, don't get me wrong I would rather have fearless or stubborn, but Ld 10 is a decent consolation prize.
2)... is just not that big of a deal. Wraiths/Scarabs/Tomb Spyders/ABs can't score either...

3) Valid argument, but has nothing to do with their competitive viability. From a purely price stand point all MSU 1+1 mech spamming armies are incredibly expensive (from the shear nature of 500 dollars worht of vehicles you have to buy).

4) While subjective, still a valid argument. I have 20 metal models, so I am effectively removed from this equation.

Chill out man... We're talking about toy soldiers after all.

Couple the fact that GH:

Score.

Can shoot.

Very mobile.

Your inability to meet the idea that GH are more effective and versatile than...a disruptive(?) unit is flabergasting.

I guess your own standars are irrationally high for a unit that is better and you and incredibly low for a unit that has it's uses, but is not nearly as useful as GH.

Flayed ones have a role, but they are nowhere near as versatile or effective as a common 10 man GH unit.

imweasel wrote:Couple the fact that GH:

Score.

Can shoot.

Very mobile.

Your inability to meet the idea that GH are more effective and versatile than...a disruptive(?) unit is flabergasting.

I guess your own standars are irrationally high for a unit that is better and you and incredibly low for a unit that has it's uses, but is not nearly as useful as GH.

Flayed ones have a role, but they are nowhere near as versatile or effective as a common 10 man GH unit.

My argument never had anything to do with which unit was more versatile...ever...I literally never made that argument, or even anything close to resembling that argument.

Necrons can't bring Grey Hunters. The whole reason for the words "Grey" and "Hunters" existence in this thread is because they were brought up to in-accurately portray a unit that is superior to them in CC. The only reason I engaged in this line of thinking was to elucidate how clearly wrong this is.

I'm confused. This comparison of Flayed Ones to GH is underlining the stupidity of writing them off based on unrealistic comparisons.

Step 1 : Playing Necrons
Step 2 : Need a unit that can infiltrate/deep strike and has a packet load of attacks.
Step 3 : Get Grey Hunters??????

Seriously, the arguments over flayed ones HAVE to be in comparison to units that are actually IN the NECRON Codex.

Otherwise I'll just have CCBs, scarabs, Wraiths, Genestealers, Anni Barges and some Long Fangs.

It's legitimate to evaluate a unit's value in relation to units it is likely to come into conflict with.

Flayed Ones don't do well against a large unit of GH with Wolf Standard; but that's one of the most point-efficient close combat units in the entire game.

I think FO are better than many people credit, but they do have some challenging matchups in fairly common situations/against reasonably common enemy units they're likely to face.

If they had kept I4 I think they'd be great. I2 plus not being Fearless is kind of rough. While Ld10 makes them reasonably resistant to Morale, even losing a combat by 2 puts you at ~ a 1/3 chance to lose the whole unit.

If they had kept I4 I think they'd be great. I2 plus not being Fearless is kind of rough. While Ld10 makes them reasonably resistant to Morale, even losing a combat by 2 puts you at ~ a 1/3 chance to lose the whole unit.

This is definitely their most legitimate weak spot (although failing an 8 or under Leadership test is closer to (1/4) chance, and although not likely, their is at least a slim chance they will win the initiative roll off), just a slight tweak to combat resolution in 6th though could greatly alleviate this concern.

10/36 is closer to 1/3. It's not an awful chance, but if you do blow it the cost is very high.

Mannahnin wrote:It's legitimate to evaluate a unit's value in relation to units it is likely to come into conflict with.

Flayed Ones don't do well against a large unit of GH with Wolf Standard; but that's one of the most point-efficient close combat units in the entire game.

Okay, I get that. But my point was that writing off flayed ones on the basis that that may or may not beat GH in isolation isn't relevant. If you are going to do that, you can write off scarabs against any unit with a heavy flamer (actually, any template). That equally doesn't make scarabs bad.

If you are working in the Necron Codex you basically have a choice of wraiths or flayed ones for a CC capable unit. So, the comparison has to be between those two units in combination with the rest of your list and the way you like to play. Generic comments that they aren't good, based on the example that they may or may not beat GH in isolation of anything else going on, isn't helpful or accurate.

From a list perspective, if you load up the FA slots with scarabs, add spyders in HS (take Anni Barges even) and chuck in Imotekh, there may be a very good case for taking a unit of flayed ones.

imho, the early part of the thread was more relevant to the uses (or otherwise) of FO than where it is now, which I think was ShadarLogoth's point in the first place. Many comments about Flayed Ones are made using inappropriate comparisons and not taking into account how the person is going to use them.

Mannahnin wrote:10/36 is closer to 1/3. It's not an awful chance, but if you do blow it the cost is very high.

10/36 is .2778

1/4 is .2500

1/3 is .3333

...

Plus, and I don't know any easy way to derive the number, but I2 versus I4 has at least a 15% or so chance of winning the roll off?

Eitherway, your point is still very true, getting wiped sucks.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:10/36 is closer to 1/3. It's not an awful chance, but if you do blow it the cost is very high.

10/36 is .2778

1/4 is .2500

1/3 is .3333

...

Plus, and I don't know any easy way to derive the number, but I2 versus I4 has at least a 15% or so chance of winning the roll off?

Eitherway, your point is still very true, getting wiped sucks.

This isn't a particularly Flayed One issue though. 20 warriors with a phaeron also has this problem (I speak from the trough of experience ) . Actually, my lychguard also have this problem.

Flayed Ones are not good. They don't even have grenades. They have incredibly low initiative, lack the ability to truly threaten vehicles. Good CC units have some level of duality. Things like Genestealers, Wraiths, TWC are all able to rend. Within the Necron codex itself you have one of the most cost efficient CC units in the game. Why ever field Flayed Ones? I guess maybe you plan to intentionally gimp yourself.

Infiltrating is not that good, it means you are still ~2 turns away from CC. It also means that your opponent will have an easy target to shoot at first turn because you will certainly be in range if you are attempting to apply pressure. Deep striking isn't the best tactic in the game either. Which is why DS heavy armies don't tend to fare too well at tournies.

We can have a playtest, if you'd like. You can show me the worth of the Flayed Ones on Vassal. I'd love to show you just how awful they are.

It is perfectly valid to compare Flayed Ones to units you will often see on the tabletop. And are you honestly kidding me about people not running large GH packs with Fists? Have you seen the Tony Kopach Space Wolf list? It's large GH units spammed, with power fists on 4 packs. And let's get real about the ASM comparison, how many players actually field ASMs and don't take any priests? Also, how many Cron players are actually running units of FOs with Destroyer Lords?

Flayed Ones are a poor CC unit because they have average to below average stats. WS4/I2/STR4/T4/4+, they literally shine at nothing. I'd rather take just about any other dedicated CC unit in the Cron codex outside of the Praetorians. I'd also prefer the dedicated CC of most other armies. Terminators/Genestealers/Fiends/Crushers/TWC/Purifiers/Paladins/Wyches/Harlequins/Boyz, you name it and i'd rather have it because they are either faster, stronger, hit better or more durable. If you look at those units they all have the ability to threaten both vehicles and infantry. STR4 does not cut it against most vehicles. Especially not in a metagame that is incredibly GK heavy. Look at Adepticon, half the players were GK. Are you going to sit there and tell me that the glances you MAY get will cut it against GK? I highly doubt it.

Cron players don't need FOs to apply pressure. They have faster more relevant threats to fulfill that role, i.e., Wraiths, Scarabs and Command Barges. Hell, that alone accounts for about half of a 2k list. The other half will need to be spent on your 2x pulses and some shooting to fill out the list. Once you sprinkle in Anni Barges and some troops you will have quickly ran out of points.

Show me some winning Cron lists, or some good players making good use of them and maybe i'll buy into your hype (the only two big Cron winners I know of are Eric Hoeger and Alex Fennell and I know they mostly take the usual, Crypteks, Barges, Scarabs, Spyders, Wraiths and Immortals) I'd love to be convinced that they are good but all I see here are some delusional people who merely want to be against the grain. You are trying way to hard here.

And for the record. I'm not merely considering them in a vacuum, I am considering them in relation to units you will commonly see in competitive play. I don't know about you but I tend to shy away from things that are easily countered by commonly played armies or units. The reason I chose GH as a point of comparison is that I am showing that even NON-dedicated CC units can beat up on the FOs which are a DEDICATED cc unit. The fact that they have little to no anti-tank ability means they are a single purpose unit. My overall point here is that they are subpar at their intended purpose.

LValx

Basically your whole post can be summarized as "I don't think the things Flayed Ones uniquely do (infiltrate and deep strike) is that good so I don't think Flayed Ones are that good."


But there is not objective validity to that statement. In fact, competent generals prove that statement wrong all the time.


The rest is filled with have truths that you assume to be true but actually aren't. I guarantee you Flayed Ones have there own particular advantages over every single unit you posted, particularly resiliency.


In summary, your making a lot of assertions based off of assumptions that have no grounding in reality, and then pretending that those faulty assumptions have earned you a rhetorical high horse that doesn't exist.

Why would I care if Players you perceive as good use them or not? It's called an argument from authority (and completely fallacious), and I've been playing long enough (10 years) and understand math, game mechanics, and game theory well enough to not have to rely on the opinions of others.

ShadarLogoth wrote:LValx

Basically your whole post can be summarized as "I don't think the things Flayed Ones uniquely do (infiltrate and deep strike) is that good so I don't think Flayed Ones are that good."


But there is not objective validity to that statement. In fact, competent generals prove that statement wrong all the time.


The rest is filled with have truths that you assume to be true but actually aren't. I guarantee you Flayed Ones have there own particular advantages over every single unit you posted, particularly resiliency.


In summary, your making a lot of assertions based off of assumptions that have no grounding in reality, and then pretending that those faulty assumptions have earned you a rhetorical high horse that doesn't exist.

Why would I care if Players you perceive as good use them or not? It's called an argument from authority (and completely fallacious), and I've been playing long enough (10 years) and understand math, game mechanics, and game theory well enough to not have to rely on the opinions of others.

lol.

I think that Deep Striking and infiltration are fine. If the unit doing it is worth a damn. You haven't given any arguments as to what actually makes the Flayed Ones so good. They are not very resilient. T4 with a 4+ and a 5+ to get back up are not very good stats. Run the numbers on equal points of FOs going into combat against some of the other dedicated CC squads I mentioned. They lose almost every one of those match ups. How are FO's more resilient than Crushers, TWC or Terminators. How about Paladins? Or a big mob of Orks in cover? I would also argue that their lack of relative speed makes them in some respects less resilient as they will be shot at for more turns than things that have larger assault ranges or fleet.

I sure did appeal to the argument from authority but you are doing no better by giving what is at best anecdotal evidence for why Flayed One's are good. My point is that if they were obviously good, as you imply by titling your thread, "Why Flayed Ones are good and you are not.", then more players would be fielding them with some level of success. Hell, a few weeks ago I went to a NOVA invitational qualifier, 7 of the 28 players were Necrons and not a single player fielded Flayed Ones. Do you honestly believe that you are THAT much smarter, or more enlightened than other competitive 40k players? That seems like quite a bit of hubris right there.

Quit talking about high horses by the way, have you even read your own thread? You've been on a high horse from the moment you made a thread with such a ridiculous title. YOU are the one who originally made assertions that weren't been based on anything objective. It is a board game, neither of us will have much success in giving a truly objective argument as to why they are a good or bad unit. The best I can do is compare them to units who fulfill similar roles in the game and I feel that they are a poor choice for what they should be doing. Their stat line hardly resembles that of a dedicated CC unit and I find that it leaves something to be desired.

As I said. I'd love to play against you on Vassal, maybe you can show me just how worthwhile the Flayed Ones are.

The reason I chose GH as a point of comparison is that I am showing that even NON-dedicated CC units can beat up on the FOs which are a DEDICATED cc unit.

But you chose one of the best "non-dedicated CC"...CC units in the game. It's an arbitrary comparison. Then you painted the scenario in such a way as to completely favor the GH. Once the conditions are properly set (give the GH a turn of double tap, let them get charged, and the FOs come out a hair ahead) it shows that, if anything, the fact that point for point Flayed Ones can be capable against one of the more under priced units in the entire game is at the very least a good reason to consider them.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

The reason I chose GH as a point of comparison is that I am showing that even NON-dedicated CC units can beat up on the FOs which are a DEDICATED cc unit.

But you chose one of the best "non-dedicated CC"...CC units in the game. It's an arbitrary comparison. Then you painted the scenario in such a way as to completely favor the GH. Once the conditions are properly set (give the GH a turn of double tap, let them get charged, and the FOs come out a hair ahead) it shows that, if anything, the fact that point for point Flayed Ones can be capable against one of the more under priced units in the entire game is at the very least a good reason to consider them.

It doesn't matter, are you simply going to compare FO's to units that are poor? Hell no, you will compare them to units that are good and often found on the table top. GH's fit both categories and they are the backbone of a codex that generally makes up a large portion of the bigger GT's attendees.
Even if equal points GH's and FO's face off and the FO's get the charge, the GH's still receive their attack bonus for charging AND they still receive their standard bonus. So you still will lose 4-6 FOs before you even get to swing and then when you swing you will kill 2-3 GH's. After the Fist swings you will probably lose combat by 3-5, meaning you are taking a leadership test that isn't really favorable. If the GH's get to double tap their bolters first you will lose by an even larger margin because your initial numbers will be lower.
Dedicated CC units should not be throttled by Non-dedicated CC units. Most of those other CC units I mentioned do strike fear into the hearts of GH's. FO's are subpar vs the most common type of army you will face in the game: MEQ.

Another point, earlier someone mentioned walkers tarpitting you. You simply shrugged this off and said if the walker isnt shooting its a win situation for you. How exactly is a 125 Pt Rifleman tying up a big 200 pt brick of FOs a good situation for you? Eventually that Dread will sweep your FO's, it will probably force a fair amount of LD 8-9 checks, of which you should eventually fail one and then you open yourself up to a high possibility of being swept.

If the FO's had power weapons, rending, fleet, or maybe outflank, I'd say they would be worthwhile. However infiltration and DS are not enough to make them a good unit. Especially since both of those game mechanics aren't that well put together.

LValx wrote:Flayed Ones are not good. They don't even have grenades. They have incredibly low initiative, lack the ability to truly threaten vehicles. Good CC units have some level of duality. Things like Genestealers, Wraiths, TWC are all able to rend. Within the Necron codex itself you have one of the most cost efficient CC units in the game. Why ever field Flayed Ones? I guess maybe you plan to intentionally gimp yourself.

Well, just about every necron unit is I2. So, that's not a reason not to take them. Also, if the FA slots are filled with scarabs, then you can't get wraiths. You could spend 200 points on 5 Lychguard (S5/T5/A2/I2/3++) but I'm not sure that they would fare much better (too few attacks). So, in some cases, it isn't gimping yourself, its working within the other things you have in your list.

LValx wrote:Infiltrating is not that good, it means you are still ~2 turns away from CC. It also means that your opponent will have an easy target to shoot at first turn because you will certainly be in range if you are attempting to apply pressure. Deep striking isn't the best tactic in the game either. Which is why DS heavy armies don't tend to fare too well at tournies.

Fair enough. But not all games are tourneys. Also, surely you aren't suggesting that FO should be ruled out simply because they infiltrate/deep strike?

LValx wrote:It is perfectly valid to compare Flayed Ones to units you will often see on the tabletop.

Sure, but as there are limited alternatives, you can't rule them out just because in some match ups they'd lose. Other than wraiths, what choices does a Necron player have?

LValx wrote:Flayed Ones are a poor CC unit because they have average to below average stats. WS4/I2/STR4/T4/4+, they literally shine at nothing. I'd rather take just about any other dedicated CC unit in the Cron codex outside of the Praetorians.

So, you'd rather take wraiths then. Me too. (I suppose you could call Lychguard dedicated CC - all you need is 400 points for 10 of them).

LValx wrote:I'd also prefer the dedicated CC of most other armies. Terminators/Genestealers/Fiends/Crushers/TWC/Purifiers/Paladins/Wyches/Harlequins/Boyz, you name it and i'd rather have it because they are either faster, stronger, hit better or more durable. If you look at those units they all have the ability to threaten both vehicles and infantry. STR4 does not cut it against most vehicles.

Sure, I'd rather have genestealers/Terminators etc. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be in my Codex.

LValx wrote:Cron players don't need FOs to apply pressure. They have faster more relevant threats to fulfill that role, i.e., Wraiths, Scarabs and Command Barges. Hell, that alone accounts for about half of a 2k list. The other half will need to be spent on your 2x pulses and some shooting to fill out the list. Once you sprinkle in Anni Barges and some troops you will have quickly ran out of points.

Agreed. However, that doesn't automatically make them bad. A lot of people don't take Deathmarks either and they are similarly use/situationally dependent.

LValx wrote:Show me some winning Cron lists, or some good players making good use of them and maybe i'll buy into your hype (the only two big Cron winners I know of are Eric Hoeger and Alex Fennell and I know they mostly take the usual, Crypteks, Barges, Scarabs, Spyders, Wraiths and Immortals) I'd love to be convinced that they are good but all I see here are some delusional people who merely want to be against the grain. You are trying way to hard here.

I think the point is not that they are good, but that they are not automatically bad. They are situationally and list dependent, but could be viable (much like Deathmarks, Lychguard, Stalkers etc)

LValx wrote:And for the record. I'm not merely considering them in a vacuum, I am considering them in relation to units you will commonly see in competitive play. I don't know about you but I tend to shy away from things that are easily countered by commonly played armies or units.

So presumably you wouldn't play scarabs either?

I'm certainly not suggesting that FO would be my goto unit. However, before this thread, I wouldn't have considered them because of the interweb view that they were hopeless. Now, I'm looking at them and looking what they could do in certain lists - which as I mainly play non tourney games works for me.

LValx wrote:
lol.

I think that Deep Striking and infiltration are fine. If the unit doing it is worth a damn. You haven't given any arguments as to what actually makes the Flayed Ones so good.

I have, you just choose to either ignore them, or move the goal posts every time.

They are not very resilient. T4 with a 4+ and a 5+ to get back up are not very good stats. Run the numbers on equal points of FOs going into combat against some of the other dedicated CC squads I mentioned. They lose almost every one of those match ups. How are FO's more resilient than Crushers, TWC or Terminators. How about Paladins? Or a big mob of Orks in cover? I would also argue that their lack of relative speed makes them in some respects less resilient as they will be shot at for more turns than things that have larger assault ranges or fleet.

This is just completely wrong. Point for point, it takes more fire power to kill the Flayed Ones then every unit you posted, besides the Orcs, who you conveniently place in cover. Also, with competent RP placement, they are faster then any foot based unit without fleet, so again, completely, or at least mostly, wrong. And again, they have infiltrate and DS, so your talking about a maximum of 2 turns to get shot at, through Night Fighting. Your perception here that they are going to have to survive more fire power then comparative units to get to assault is patently false and ignores one of the distinct advantages the Flayed Ones have.

I sure did appeal to the argument from authority but you are doing no better by giving what is at best anecdotal evidence for why Flayed One's are good. My point is that if they were obviously good, as you imply by titling your thread, "Why Flayed Ones are good and you are not.", then more players would be fielding them with some level of success. Hell, a few weeks ago I went to a NOVA invitational qualifier, 7 of the 28 players were Necrons and not a single player fielded Flayed Ones. Do you honestly believe that you are THAT much smarter, or more enlightened than other competitive 40k players? That seems like quite a bit of hubris right there.

Tournament players went for the obvious choices, as they always do. You act like these players came to these decisions independent of each other, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Case in point:
Most players thought (and many still think) that Harpies and Tfexes are bad units in the Nid codex. However, there are now several very well respected players that do use them, because in the many moons since the codex came out they've had more time to be played around with and their beneficial idiosyncrasies have had a chance to surface.

Quit talking about high horses by the way, have you even read your own thread? You've been on a high horse from the moment you made a thread with such a ridiculous title.

It was a joke. Winky faces, and the part where I explicitly said it was a joke, should have clued you in on this. <---Again, joke.

YOU are the one who originally made assertions that weren't been based on anything objective.

What part of my original post, specifically, wasn't objective? I outlined the unique aspects of the unit relative to their codex.

Their stat line hardly resembles that of a dedicated CC unit and I find that it leaves something to be desired.

Compare their stat line to CC units with similar capabilities (Orc Commandos for instance) and I really don't see how you can say this.

As I said. I'd love to play against you on Vassal, maybe you can show me just how worthwhile the Flayed Ones are.

Sadly I don't have Vassal and barely have time to play the real life games I can fit in at the moment (newborn baby, work Grave yard). However, if these conditions change, I'll certainly PM you. I think you are absolutely correct that it can be much easier to illustrate a units effectiveness on the battlefield.

MarkCron wrote:

LValx wrote:Flayed Ones are not good. They don't even have grenades. They have incredibly low initiative, lack the ability to truly threaten vehicles. Good CC units have some level of duality. Things like Genestealers, Wraiths, TWC are all able to rend. Within the Necron codex itself you have one of the most cost efficient CC units in the game. Why ever field Flayed Ones? I guess maybe you plan to intentionally gimp yourself.

Well, just about every necron unit is I2. So, that's not a reason not to take them. Also, if the FA slots are filled with scarabs, then you can't get wraiths. You could spend 200 points on 5 Lychguard (S5/T5/A2/I2/3++) but I'm not sure that they would fare much better (too few attacks). So, in some cases, it isn't gimping yourself, its working within the other things you have in your list.

LValx wrote:Infiltrating is not that good, it means you are still ~2 turns away from CC. It also means that your opponent will have an easy target to shoot at first turn because you will certainly be in range if you are attempting to apply pressure. Deep striking isn't the best tactic in the game either. Which is why DS heavy armies don't tend to fare too well at tournies.

Fair enough. But not all games are tourneys. Also, surely you aren't suggesting that FO should be ruled out simply because they infiltrate/deep strike?

LValx wrote:It is perfectly valid to compare Flayed Ones to units you will often see on the tabletop.

Sure, but as there are limited alternatives, you can't rule them out just because in some match ups they'd lose. Other than wraiths, what choices does a Necron player have?

LValx wrote:Flayed Ones are a poor CC unit because they have average to below average stats. WS4/I2/STR4/T4/4+, they literally shine at nothing. I'd rather take just about any other dedicated CC unit in the Cron codex outside of the Praetorians.

So, you'd rather take wraiths then. Me too. (I suppose you could call Lychguard dedicated CC - all you need is 400 points for 10 of them).

LValx wrote:I'd also prefer the dedicated CC of most other armies. Terminators/Genestealers/Fiends/Crushers/TWC/Purifiers/Paladins/Wyches/Harlequins/Boyz, you name it and i'd rather have it because they are either faster, stronger, hit better or more durable. If you look at those units they all have the ability to threaten both vehicles and infantry. STR4 does not cut it against most vehicles.

Sure, I'd rather have genestealers/Terminators etc. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be in my Codex.

LValx wrote:Cron players don't need FOs to apply pressure. They have faster more relevant threats to fulfill that role, i.e., Wraiths, Scarabs and Command Barges. Hell, that alone accounts for about half of a 2k list. The other half will need to be spent on your 2x pulses and some shooting to fill out the list. Once you sprinkle in Anni Barges and some troops you will have quickly ran out of points.

Agreed. However, that doesn't automatically make them bad. A lot of people don't take Deathmarks either and they are similarly use/situationally dependent.

LValx wrote:Show me some winning Cron lists, or some good players making good use of them and maybe i'll buy into your hype (the only two big Cron winners I know of are Eric Hoeger and Alex Fennell and I know they mostly take the usual, Crypteks, Barges, Scarabs, Spyders, Wraiths and Immortals) I'd love to be convinced that they are good but all I see here are some delusional people who merely want to be against the grain. You are trying way to hard here.

I think the point is not that they are good, but that they are not automatically bad. They are situationally and list dependent, but could be viable (much like Deathmarks, Lychguard, Stalkers etc)

LValx wrote:And for the record. I'm not merely considering them in a vacuum, I am considering them in relation to units you will commonly see in competitive play. I don't know about you but I tend to shy away from things that are easily countered by commonly played armies or units.

So presumably you wouldn't play scarabs either?

I'm certainly not suggesting that FO would be my goto unit. However, before this thread, I wouldn't have considered them because of the interweb view that they were hopeless. Now, I'm looking at them and looking what they could do in certain lists - which as I mainly play non tourney games works for me.

If this thread is about FOs in a non-competitive setting, go ahead. I dont see anything wrong with taking them casually. But I think that proclaiming them to be "good" is a bit of a stretch.
Wraiths are able to counteract their poor initiative with whip coils and the ability to generally receive the charge and thus placing the whipcoils in an advantageous manner. Wraiths are also fearless and thus needn't worried about sweeping advances. FOs are scared to death of being swept. It's incredibly easy to do.
Scarabs are a point-efficient CC unit that a Necron player can take. I don't advocate 18 Wraith builds, I'd say that 2 squads of Wraiths with 1 big squad of Scarabs is probably the ideal CC set up for a Cron player. Between the Wraiths, Scarabs and the Scythe lords you should have more than enough CC ability. The FO's are low quality CC that do not really fulfill any needed role. Cron players want to be able to open up vehicles so that the Wraiths and Lords can eat the squads inside. Scarabs also perform very well against many different types of infantry you see commonly fielded.
As an aside, their aren't many commonly fielded units that perform particularly well vs Scarabs outside of the GK codex. Something like Hammernators would do well vs them but the Scarabs are faster and should therefore be able to pick and choose their battles

ShadarLogoth wrote:

LValx wrote:
lol.

I think that Deep Striking and infiltration are fine. If the unit doing it is worth a damn. You haven't given any arguments as to what actually makes the Flayed Ones so good.

I have, you just choose to either ignore them, or move the goal posts every time.

They are not very resilient. T4 with a 4+ and a 5+ to get back up are not very good stats. Run the numbers on equal points of FOs going into combat against some of the other dedicated CC squads I mentioned. They lose almost every one of those match ups. How are FO's more resilient than Crushers, TWC or Terminators. How about Paladins? Or a big mob of Orks in cover? I would also argue that their lack of relative speed makes them in some respects less resilient as they will be shot at for more turns than things that have larger assault ranges or fleet.

This is just completely wrong. Point for point, it takes more fire power to kill the Flayed Ones then every unit you posted, besides the Orcs, who you conveniently place in cover. Also, with competent RP placement, they are faster then any foot based unit without fleet, so again, completely, or at least mostly, wrong. And again, they have infiltrate and DS, so your talking about a maximum of 2 turns to get shot at, through Night Fighting. Your perception here that they are going to have to survive more fire power then comparative units to get to assault is patently false and ignores one of the distinct advantages the Flayed Ones have.

I sure did appeal to the argument from authority but you are doing no better by giving what is at best anecdotal evidence for why Flayed One's are good. My point is that if they were obviously good, as you imply by titling your thread, "Why Flayed Ones are good and you are not.", then more players would be fielding them with some level of success. Hell, a few weeks ago I went to a NOVA invitational qualifier, 7 of the 28 players were Necrons and not a single player fielded Flayed Ones. Do you honestly believe that you are THAT much smarter, or more enlightened than other competitive 40k players? That seems like quite a bit of hubris right there.

Tournament players went for the obvious choices, as they always do. You act like these players came to these decisions independent of each other, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Case in point:
Most players thought (and many still think) that Harpies and Tfexes are bad units in the Nid codex. However, there are now several very well respected players that do use them, because in the many moons since the codex came out they've had more time to be played around with and their beneficial idiosyncrasies have had a chance to surface.

Quit talking about high horses by the way, have you even read your own thread? You've been on a high horse from the moment you made a thread with such a ridiculous title.

It was a joke. Winky faces, and the part where I explicitly said it was a joke, should have clued you in on this. <---Again, joke.

YOU are the one who originally made assertions that weren't been based on anything objective.

What part of my original post, specifically, wasn't objective? I outlined the unique aspects of the unit relative to their codex.

Their stat line hardly resembles that of a dedicated CC unit and I find that it leaves something to be desired.

Compare their stat line to CC units with similar capabilities (Orc Commandos for instance) and I really don't see how you can say this.

As I said. I'd love to play against you on Vassal, maybe you can show me just how worthwhile the Flayed Ones are.

Sadly I don't have Vassal and barely have time to play the real life games I can fit in at the moment (newborn baby, work Grave yard). However, if these conditions change, I'll certainly PM you. I think you are absolutely correct that it can be much easier to illustrate a units effectiveness on the battlefield.

Please show me the nid players who perform at a high level that take harpys and fexes. I am curious to see this. Most of the Daemon troops are similarly costed to the FO's and have better stats.
You and I also both know that any player worth his salt will have his large mobs of Orks in cover.
How are FO's faster than genestealers? Genestealers also infiltrate and have fleet...
How are they faster than TWC? TWC can easily reach combat by turn 2. As can Nob Bikers.
Fiends and Crushers are just as fast because they can also DS and they have the chance to auto-DS first turn. Thus they are able to apply pressure very very quickly. Terminators are generally fielded in Raiders and therefore have a much larger charge range.

Heres a similarly costed dedicated CC unit: Deathcult Assassins. Tell me that Flayed Ones can compete with that? The Assassins have just as many base attacks, they have only a 5+ save but they also have a 5+ invulnerable, they have a higher initiative and they sport a higher weapon skill. THAT is HUGE.

You keep making the mistake of talking about the FOs in a vacuum rather than analyzing them for how they work in the game that we actually play. In THAT game they have little to no use. Especially against the Mech heavy environment of 5th edition. If you are spending your points on FO's that is less anti-tank you have available. Please show us one of your FOs lists so that we can see how they "synergize"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good units are obviously good to most players. It doesn't take a genius to see why Wraiths, CCBs, Scarabs, Spyders are all fantastic units. You must think that you are some sort of special mind, to assert that a unit that is commonly held to be poor is in fact a good choice to be fielded.

Not that I always agree with him but this about sums up my feelings as to why FOs aren't any good:
http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/11/necron-units-flayed-ones/

LValx wrote:Even if equal points GH's and FO's face off and the FO's get the charge, the GH's still receive their attack bonus for charging AND they still receive their standard bonus. So you still will lose 4-6 FOs before you even get to swing and then when you swing you will kill 2-3 GH's. After the Fist swings you will probably lose combat by 3-5, meaning you are taking a leadership test that isn't really favorable. If the GH's get to double tap their bolters first you will lose by an even larger margin because your initial numbers will be lower.

Your numbers are quite simply wrong here. The only thing I can tell you is create the two units with equal points (with a Rino for the GH because they are worthless without it) and roll off the combat. The results will surprise you.

Dedicated CC units should not be throttled by Non-dedicated CC units.

And they do. Describing them as being "throttled" by the GH is a product of you not properly evaluating the actual scenario.

Another point, earlier someone mentioned walkers tarpitting you. You simply shrugged this off and said if the walker isnt shooting its a win situation for you. How exactly is a 125 Pt Rifleman tying up a big 200 pt brick of FOs a good situation for you? Eventually that Dread will sweep your FO's, it will probably force a fair amount of LD 8-9 checks, of which you should eventually fail one and then you open yourself up to a high possibility of being swept.

Who said I assaulted one dreadnought with 15? Not a likely secnario. If I could get 2 with a multi assault however I would certainly take it. What I was pointing out that if some one was dumb enough to assault them with a dreadnought then it would a strategic net positive for the Necron side. The chances of A&gt A Rifleman dreadnought killing a Flayed One, B.) Them Failing their moral check and C.) Them getting overrun are infinitesimally small. Like like 1 out of 50 small.

If the FO's had power weapons, rending, fleet, or maybe outflank, I'd say they would be worthwhile. However infiltration and DS are not enough to make them a good unit. Especially since both of those game mechanics aren't that well put together.

Infiltrate is Outflank. And the rest of this statement proves my point, you simply don't have enough experience and exposure to understand the validity or these game mechanics.

Boo boo on my part, i understand the validity of ds and outflank, as an ex deathwing and ex sw player i have used units that fulfill both roles spectacularly. Al raheem platoons are great too, as are flanking stealers and war walkers. Unfortunately crons dont have useful reserve manipulation meaning you cant control their outflanking too well. Sw scouts are great because they generally end up where you need them and they have duality, flayed ones dont have any duality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vassal is super easy to acquire and with the amount of time youve spent debating here we could easily play a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 gh with 2 melta and standard + rhino is = to 15 flayed ones. If the GHs shoot first they should win combat by ~2 if they charge they should win by ~3.

LValx wrote:
Please show me the nid players who perform at a high level that take harpys and fexes. I am curious to see this.

Well, no Nid list "perform[s] at a high level" . Seriously though, go look at some of the more recent rhetoric surrounding these units, Apuse Puppy at 3++ is one of the ones that comes to mind that has written about there viability.

You and I also both know that any player worth his salt will have his large mobs of Orks in cover.

I've killed me an Orc or two out of cover. Edit: Original made no sense.

How are FO's faster than genestealers? Genestealers also infiltrate and have fleet...

I specifically said with out fleet, however fleet gets you an extra 3.5", and that is only on the turn you assault. Competent RP placement buys you 3" every phase you get shot. The mobility here is much closer then you think.

How are they faster than TWC? TWC can easily reach combat by turn 2. As can Nob Bikers.

Never said that.

Fiends and Crushers are just as fast because they can also DS and they have the chance to auto-DS first turn. Thus they are able to apply pressure very very quickly

You really seem to want to ignore this whole "RP addes to their mobility" concept.

Terminators are generally fielded in Raiders and therefore have a much larger charge range.

Yeah, until their 250 point toy gets shot out beneath them...

Heres a similarly costed dedicated CC unit: Deathcult Assassins. Tell me that Flayed Ones can compete with that? The Assassins have just as many base attacks, they have only a 5+ save but they also have a 5+ invulnerable, they have a higher initiative and they sport a higher weapon skill. THAT is HUGE.

DCA are amazing in CC, now doubt about it. However, they die horribly to bolter fire, not so much and issue with the Flayed One.

You keep making the mistake of talking about the FOs in a vacuum rather than analyzing them for how they work in the game that we actually play. In THAT game they have little to no use. Especially against the Mech heavy environment of 5th edition. If you are spending your points on FO's that is less anti-tank you have available. Please show us one of your FOs lists so that we can see how they "synergize"

I'm really not. I've actually played with them for 6 months, and I can guaruntee you I have more experience actually using them on the battlefield then anyone one with a negative perception of them. I will be making a post with the most common list I run them in soon though, and it happens to contain a couple of other under utilized units. Stay tuned .

Good units are obviously good to most players. It doesn't take a genius to see why Wraiths, CCBs, Scarabs, Spyders are all fantastic units. You must think that you are some sort of special mind, to assert that a unit that is commonly held to be poor is in fact a good choice to be fielded.

I'm actually a genius, so yeah...what can you do? (/shrug)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:
Vassal is super easy to acquire and with the amount of time youve spent debating here we could easily play a game.

Tu shay, I am at work though, not sure if such activity would be condoned .

10 gh with 2 melta and standard + rhino is = to 15 flayed ones. If the GHs shoot first they should win combat by ~2 if they charge they should win by ~3.

Win the first round of combat by 2 is what you mean right? But after that, assuming a successful Ld roll (which is just as likely in this case as the successful counter attack roll that necessitates it), and RP rolls, the combat turns out just slightly in the Flayed Ones favor.

Everyone sitting behind their computer desk is always a genius. If you are so good at 40k im curious as to what major event you have won? Why is your opinion at all valuable?
I wouldnt feed you any movement on the flayed ones because i can simply kite them and deal with your more pressing threats. Since they have a small threat radius, lack shooting and can barely threaten basic troops, I would leave them be until I needed to deal with them. I really would love to get a game in. Im sure you can spare some time with the amount of time you seem to have wasted on this forum.
And since you know so little about competitive 40k, nick nanaviti has placed fairly high in some big events with nids. He runs the usual units you see good nid players run (tervs, hive guard, stealers)

LValx wrote:Everyone sitting behind their computer desk is always a genius. If you are so good at 40k im curious as to what major event you have won? Why is your opinion at all valuable?

/sigh this sarcasm concept...look into it.

I wouldnt feed you any movement on the flayed ones because i can simply kite them and deal with your more pressing threats. Since they have a small threat radius, lack shooting and can barely threaten basic troops, I would leave them be until I needed to deal with them.

15 Flayed Ones spread out in 2" coherency have a massive threat range. Avoiding them means you are narrowing the real estate the Wraiths/Scarabs etc have to cover. If you can't see the clear tactical advantage this creates I don't know how else to explain it to you.

I really would love to get a game in. Im sure you can spare some time with the amount of time you seem to have wasted on this forum.

I honestly can't, take it as you will.

And since you know so little about competitive 40k, nick nanaviti has placed fairly high in some big events with nids. He runs the usual units you see good nid players run (tervs, hive guard, stealers)

LOLWUT?

In one statement you managed to combine meaningless, incredibly selective, anecdotal evidence, an argument from authority, and an ad hominem. Impressive.

You name dropping abusepuppy and saying unnamed players do well with fexes and harpys is any different how? All i was pointing out is that the one fairly successful nid player i am familiar with runs the units generally agreed upon as the better units. I think i supplied a little more evidence than you. And quit with the phil bs, im glad you took a class or two in logic. Ironically enough im a phil major. Dont sit here and act like you havent committed fallacies as well. This whole argument is about as subjective as one can be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw nanaviti is quite the player. He won the nova invitational last year and has placed very high at some other well known gts with armies as diverse as tyranids and tau. The man does have credentials.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You keep missing the part where I keep telling you that the flayed ones are not a perceived threat. Show me otherwise. Lets see a sample FOs list right now.

LValx wrote:You name dropping abusepuppy and saying unnamed players do well with fexes and harpys is any different how? All i was pointing out is that the one fairly successful nid player i am familiar with runs the units generally agreed upon as the better units. I think i supplied a little more evidence than you. And quit with the phil bs, im glad you took a class or two in logic. Ironically enough im a phil major. Dont sit here and act like you havent committed fallacies as well. This whole argument is about as subjective as one can be.

My condolences to your professors.

Btw nanaviti is quite the player. He won the nova invitational last year and has placed very high at some other well known gts with armies as diverse as tyranids and tau. The man does have credentials.

Nobody is arguing that. But the fact that one succesful player does or does not use a unit is 100% meaningless. AP has actually written about the positive uses of the units I mentioned. Do you really not see the difference here?

You keep missing the part where I keep telling you that the flayed ones are not a perceived threat. Show me otherwise. Lets see a sample FOs list right now.

I agree they are often not a perceived threat. This is awesome. I've clearly shown, mutiple times, that they actually are a threat however. 15 Flayed Ones cause 5 glances to a combat speed vehicle, aka enough to stun it and knock off shiney bits. How is that not a threat? They can also take out any primarily shooting based unit quite easily (GH are most certainly not a primarily shooting based unit, they are a close quarters hybrid unit). Again...how is that not a threat?

Nanaviti isnt the only player to eschew harpys and fexes. Show me a tyranid list that has performed well that used either unit, i challenge you. A player winning a large gt is better evidence than an article written by someone with hardly any credentials.
If i move my vehicle 12 the flayed ones have hardly any viability. There is a reason why close combat is not to be relied upon for vehicle killing, ask daemons or nids how that generally works out for them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agree to disagree. You see a diamond in the rough, I see inefficiency at its worst

LValx wrote:Nanaviti isnt the only player to eschew harpys and fexes. Show me a tyranid list that has performed well that used either unit, i challenge you. A player winning a large gt is better evidence than an article written by someone with hardly any credentials.

I honestly can't, but the pool of Nid generals winning tournies with any list is unfourtunatly small to begin with.

If i move my vehicle 12 the flayed ones have hardly any viability. There is a reason why close combat is not to be relied upon for vehicle killing, ask daemons or nids how that generally works out for them.

I'm still averaging a glance and a half (with 15), versus anyone besides GK this is plenty sufficient. Their weight of attacks here is a distinct advantage over power weapon based CC units, as the points spent on the power weapons are intrinsically inefficient for vehicle killing.

Agree to disagree. You see a diamond in the rough, I see inefficiency at its worst

Word. Look, you bring up valid concerns, but what I'm attempting to do is illustrate why the common perception is flawed.

Shadar, it's not an entirely arbitrary comparison. That's a pretty common unit to see in SW armies, and is one of the more likely things they would use to preemptively charge the FO when they show up.

That said, yeah, some of LValx's points aren't very good ones.

Just because no top players have used them yet at a big event doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. How many top-placing players other than Alex Fennell have been running a Ghost Ark? Or Monolith? Or dual Lightning Field Crypteks? The book is still pretty new and the prevalence of list/unit discussions on blogs and forums nowadays I think does create an echo chamber where a small list of obvious units gets distorted and blown up into treated like the only effective units.

In terms of what FOs have that's exceptional, one is their A3 base, another is their durability. Point for point they're more durable than terminators. The tricky RP bonus movement at the end of the opponent's shooting phase if they get shot is another unique advantage.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:10/36 is closer to 1/3. It's not an awful chance, but if you do blow it the cost is very high.

10/36 is .2778
1/4 is .2500
1/3 is .3333

Yeah; I woke up this morning and my subconscious was going "Wait, 9 is 1/4 of 36, and 12 is 1/3". Whoops.

While all this conjecture and theoryhammering is fun and all, show some tabletop results and ill listen. This is why theoryhammering is flawed; we need dice, tactics, and terrain all so see the unit in action.

Also don't forget this dex was written with 6th in mind; some units haven't shown their true colors yet

If you believe that 1-2 glances on back AV10 is efficient for a 200 pt unit then I cannot help you out man. Premier CC units have duality in that they generally have the ability to take down vehicles either through high STR or rending.

I realize that a great deal of my points were arbitrary and anecdotal but I feel the OP's post was quite similar. I believe that in comparison to other units in the codex that fulfill similar roles, the FOs pale. I asked to see a list and he still has yet to provide one. I have a difficult time imagining what a person could drop in order to field 15 Flayed Ones. It either results in a list that is light on scoring, shooting or wraiths and barges. All of which seem like awful trade-offs just to receive some average to below average CC.

Mannahnin wrote:How many top-placing players other than Alex Fennell have been running a Ghost Ark? Or Monolith? Or dual Lightning Field Crypteks?

I'm sorry to say but I agree with nearly all of LValx's points. As far as your statement goes I think you're making one misconception here. I for one haven't even agreed that Alex Fennel's list is any good. To be honest, I think it's utter trash. The fact he's placed high in a tournament with it doesn't make his unit choices or army composition any good. I've won a GT finals type event with vanilla Space Marines myself and in no way does it make that book particularly competitive, it just means I played decent and randomised suitable opponents and scenarios. My point being, even if I took Necrons to a GT tomorrow and got a top 5 finish with 20 Flayed Ones in my army, LValx's points about that unit being non-competitive against all the regular tournament power houses is still valid. My army would've been more competitive with 2x Wraiths and 1x Scarabs as my CC element. Flayed Ones are very low on the internal power ladder in Codex: Necrons, and I think LValx has already explained why.

That said, I do appreciate the effort the OP is putting in trying to make this stuff work and trying to explain himself.

I think Ghost Arks and Monoliths both provide something to a Necron army that is unique. The Monolith is portable cover that is hardly threatened by ranged weaponry outside of lances, it also has the ability to teleport troops to where you need them in a pinch. Those are both pretty unique aspects and I can understand a player making use of that. The Ghost Ark also has some unique qualities, it offers a transport that doesnt send your troops back to reserves and it helps give cover to other Barges. I have seen good players use both units, I really haven't seen a single Flayed One at any tournament I have been to this year. AND I have seen a TON of Cron armies (I understand this is anecdotal evidence but to me this is meaningful). I really don't see a use for Flayed Ones that cannot be better filled by Wraiths, Scarabs or Spyders. I don't believe that using them as infiltrators is that advantageous because they do not have shooting weaponry. Outflanking them is a risk because they arent fast enough or ranged enough to make up for them ending up on the wrong side of the board.

I think any arguments for or against Flayed Ones will be littered with anecdotal evidence and testimonials but I do personally believe that you can look at what commonly places high at tournaments and get a feel for what units are worthwhile. DO I think that FOs can never be fielded by any general? Of course not but I do believe that they will almost always put you at a disadvantage. I feel it is intentional gimping for the purpose of being unique, which I fully understand in a meta filled with lots of spam. However, I don't think FOs are the way to be unique while maintaining a good, efficient list. In fact, FOs along with Praetorians and Doomsday Arks are probably the only things in that codex I would never bother taking. Everything else I feel can be used with good effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:How many top-placing players other than Alex Fennell have been running a Ghost Ark? Or Monolith? Or dual Lightning Field Crypteks?

I'm sorry to say but I agree with nearly all of LValx's points. As far as your statement goes I think you're making one misconception here. I for one haven't even agreed that Alex Fennel's list is any good. To be honest, I think it's utter trash. The fact he's placed high in a tournament with it doesn't make his unit choices or army composition any good. I've won a GT finals type event with vanilla Space Marines myself and in no way does it make that book particularly competitive, it just means I played decent and randomised suitable opponents and scenarios. My point being, even if I took Necrons to a GT tomorrow and got a top 5 finish with 20 Flayed Ones in my army, LValx's points about that unit being non-competitive against all the regular tournament power houses is still valid. My army would've been more competitive with 2x Wraiths and 1x Scarabs as my CC element. Flayed Ones are very low on the internal power ladder in Codex: Necrons, and I think LValx has already explained why.

That said, I do appreciate the effort the OP is putting in trying to make this stuff work and trying to explain himself.

I am glad we agree. We seem to be on a similar wavelength. I respect Fennell for taking something unique but when he faced a similar level of competition in the Adepticon Finals his list got stomped. It just wasn't quite efficient enough, IMO.

Ghost Arks and Monoliths also bring some unique weaknessess that serious gamers who don't want to bring a knife to a gunfight will avoid at all costs when assembling a WAAC AAC army. I think the only reason you've been seeing either of those units (aside from most players simply having no idea what is competitive) is that the Scythes haven't had models available to them yet and people haven't wanted to go all-footslogging. Anyway that's a little off topic.

However, I don't think FOs are the way to be unique while maintaining a good, efficient list. In fact, FOs along with Praetorians and Doomsday Arks are probably the only things in that codex I would never bother taking. Everything else I feel can be used with good effect.

Although in a sense I agree with you completely, you're still being a bit contradictory now. Flayed Ones can be used to an 'effect' as well and the original poster has explained how. They just can't be used nearly as effective as the available alternatives and that makes them useless in simple language. There's plenty other units like that in Codex Necrons than the ones you mentioned. There's nothing unique about having a garbage transport that doesn't send its passengers to reserve when it gets blown to bits, or a portable cover that makes you forfeit the tournament when you draw Dark Eldar, except playing something noone in their right mind would play. Same goes for the oversized and overpriced Dreadnought that is called the Triarch Stalker, not to forget the Destroyers etc...

@Shadar

Why are you advocating a DS scenario? It is not particularly good for the unit. Against a mech based opponent they must suffer 2 turns of shooting before getting to assault any infantry. And in fact they will be assaulted by the opponents infantry after 2 turns of shooting.

The alternative is just drive by and ignore them. Yes you can do that as a mech player unlike wraiths which have a much better force concentration and a higher threat range as well.

Against a foot based army they will get the best of their units right in the face and wont survive that. Maybe with some shooting support or cc support. Imagine 60 lasguns FRFSRF... Or Lash+Oblits or guard PBS + a little shooting and escort with chimeras, every generic bloodie assault marine squad will kill them in one turn. And i didnt talk about talon dreads or mephiston or death company.

The problem: If you deep strike, your opponent chooses what do do with them. If you outflank, you do.

Therion wrote:Ghost Arks and Monoliths also bring some unique weaknessess that serious gamers who don't want to bring a knife to a gunfight will avoid at all costs when assembling a WAAC AAC army. I think the only reason you've been seeing either of those units (aside from most players simply having no idea what is competitive) is that the Scythes haven't had models available to them yet and people haven't wanted to go all-footslogging. Anyway that's a little off topic.

However, I don't think FOs are the way to be unique while maintaining a good, efficient list. In fact, FOs along with Praetorians and Doomsday Arks are probably the only things in that codex I would never bother taking. Everything else I feel can be used with good effect.

Although in a sense I agree with you completely, you're still being a bit contradictory now. Flayed Ones can be used to an 'effect' as well and the original poster has explained how. They just can't be used nearly as effective as the available alternatives and that makes them useless in simple language. There's plenty other units like that in Codex Necrons than the ones you mentioned. There's nothing unique about having a garbage transport that doesn't send its passengers to reserve when it gets blown to bits, or a portable cover that makes you forfeit the tournament when you draw Dark Eldar, except playing something noone in their right mind would play. Same goes for the oversized and overpriced Dreadnought that is called the Triarch Stalker, not to forget the Destroyers etc...

The OP argues that using their infiltration abilities gives them a unique role within the codex, I think they fail at being "scouts" and fail at being CC specialists. Those other things, Stalkers, etc. They may be inefficient for their points but they offer, IMO, something that can be useful. I honestly cannot see any use for FOs. Well, aside from attempting to be different and unique. I have been able to use things such as Stalkers and Monoliths, but Flayed Ones were utterly useless when I tried them out. And for the record I tried out the bigger blob of them, at around 17 models. It never seemed to fulfill any purpose that I couldn't fill otherwise and they always failed at their perceived job.

I agree that the Flayed Ones fail in their roles; I just wanted to point out that our views differ in the fact that if something is points inefficient on its own and not a huge force multiplier in another way I don't care that it's one of its kind in the army book. Frankly I'm glad it is and will spend my points in the efficient units.

Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

Therion wrote:I agree that the Flayed Ones fail in their roles; I just wanted to point out that our views differ in the fact that if something is points inefficient on its own and not a huge force multiplier in another way I don't care that it's one of its kind in the army book. Frankly I'm glad it is and will spend my points in the efficient units.

Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

I agree. I always tend to go for efficiency. For a friendly game I may take things that entertain me but if the goal is to win, efficiency is most important.

I agree. I always tend to go for efficiency. For a friendly game I may take things that entertain me but if the goal is to win, efficiency is most important.

Allright so then our views don't differ at all.

I'd like to add that it's cool that people make threads about how to use the units that may not see much tabletop time and are therefore entertaining to play with and against. We just can't misunderstand a discussion on how to make the most out of this points inefficient unit to mean that it would actually ever be sane to take that unit in an army that is built to have the largest chance of victory against all comers. Sometimes its the reader's misunderstanding and sometimes the guy writing the tactica has gotten a bit too in love with his uniquely succesful underdogs.

@ the OP. I want to apologize for anything belittling or sarcastic I may have said. I wasn't trying to stomp all over your thread. The above post about sums up my feelings and why I felt the need to debate the usefulness at all. I am always a fan of thinking outside of the box.

-Nazdreg- wrote:@Shadar

Why are you advocating a DS scenario? It is not particularly good for the unit. Against a mech based opponent they must suffer 2 turns of shooting before getting to assault any infantry. And in fact they will be assaulted by the opponents infantry after 2 turns of shooting.

The alternative is just drive by and ignore them. Yes you can do that as a mech player unlike wraiths which have a much better force concentration and a higher threat range as well.

Against a foot based army they will get the best of their units right in the face and wont survive that. Maybe with some shooting support or cc support. Imagine 60 lasguns FRFSRF... Or Lash+Oblits or guard PBS + a little shooting and escort with chimeras, every generic bloodie assault marine squad will kill them in one turn. And i didnt talk about talon dreads or mephiston or death company.

The problem: If you deep strike, your opponent chooses what do do with them. If you outflank, you do.

The intention was not to advocate any scenario in particular, but to highlight the choices the many deployment options offer you. Depending on who you are facing, and how they are deployed, Deep Striking with Imo, Outflanking, and infiltrating all offer unique advantages. The key is to make the right choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:@ the OP. I want to apologize for anything belittling or sarcastic I may have said. I wasn't trying to stomp all over your thread. The above post about sums up my feelings and why I felt the need to debate the usefulness at all. I am always a fan of thinking outside of the box.

For sure, some negative, or cynical reaction is to be expected, and if properly voiced only adds to the discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:I agree that the Flayed Ones fail in their roles; I just wanted to point out that our views differ in the fact that if something is points inefficient on its own and not a huge force multiplier in another way I don't care that it's one of its kind in the army book. Frankly I'm glad it is and will spend my points in the efficient units.

Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

Therion, you seem to have a some arbitrarily narrow definition of what you deem to be "competitive," and I would posit that this has more to do with pre-concieved notions conducive to your play style then it does with actuall unit viability. I mean, if some one can offer clear rational distinctions and arguments for taking a unit, and be successful with that unit in a large tournament setting, and you still won't concede that unit is viable then I would say you have placed unrealistic, or impossible standards on that unit. Basically what you are saying is "I have already come to the correct conclusions in respect to this unit and no amount of evidence will sway me."

Epistemologicaly speaking I don't know if such restrictive conservatism and narrow assumptions will ever properly evaluate all viable options. As Mannahnin pointed out their are intrinsic limitations built into the current interweb discourse.

Therion wrote:Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

I'm not sure that's true. The typical "most points efficient spam" lists don't tend to actually win major events here in the US. I don't know of any major event that has ever been won by a Razorback spam for instance, though I think Stelek came close once. On the other hand, unusual lists like Footdar or Mike Brandt's Straken Guard have done fairly well for themselves. It's my impression that the "most points efficient spam" lists are a good way for a new or mid-level player to get better quickly, but truly advanced and experienced players are better served by taking units that fit their playstyle and making use of unexpected or underestimated choices.

Imagine 60 lasguns FRFSRF... Or Lash+Oblits or guard PBS + a little shooting and escort with chimeras, every generic bloodie assault marine squad will kill them in one turn. And i didnt talk about talon dreads or mephiston or death company.

Wanted to speak to this statement directly, A.) 60 lasguns with FRFSRF will put a small dent in a unit of FOs, B.) I would hope and pray Oblits are shooting at my FOPs and not My Wriaths, that they can instant kill C.) Sure, ASM with a priest present can present a problem (they still aren't likely dying in one turn, and ASM without a priest could very easily go either way)...but again, no body is going to leave a unit out on an island unless their are strategic reasons for doing so.

Talon Dreads, Mephiston and Death Company are certainly problematic, as they are with 99% of units in CC. I don't think this we can say this is a unique to Flayed Ones problem.

Fetterkey wrote:

Therion wrote:Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

I'm not sure that's true. The typical "most points efficient spam" lists don't tend to actually win major events here in the US. I don't know of any major event that has ever been won by a Razorback spam for instance, though I think Stelek came close once. On the other hand, unusual lists like Footdar or Mike Brandt's Straken Guard have done fairly well for themselves. It's my impression that the "most points efficient spam" lists are a good way for a new or mid-level player to get better quickly, but truly advanced and experienced players are better served by taking units that fit their playstyle and making use of unexpected or underestimated choices.

I'm sure you know what's going on out there but you might be drawing the wrong conclusions out of it. First of all, Stelek always took everything to absurd extremes which resulted in many of his lists being absolutely awful. If Dakka search goes to the time when he wasn't yet banned here you'll find me criticising nearly all of his armies.

I said the lists would gravitate towards similarity once points effectiveness had been discovered. About the tournament results you mentioned I'll say it's either a result of custom missions that favour wacky lists, or believe it or not the general level of competition being average or below average which naturally allows mediocre lists played by good generals to have success. This has nearly always been the case in every edition of the GW game systems. I think the only edition in either game where the tournaments were practically always won by real power lists was in the previous edition of Warhammer after the Daemons of Chaos had come out. The margins were simply that big that time. Lastly, don't forget that it's a common practise (atleast here) for generals who believe in their abilities to intentionally take a weaker list to a tournament just to prove that they don't need to play the cutting edge razor sharp lists that are often labeled 'cheesy' by the masses to be able to take the top prize. It's got as much to do with ego as anything else.

MarkCron wrote:I'm confused. This comparison of Flayed Ones to GH is underlining the stupidity of writing them off based on unrealistic comparisons.

Step 1 : Playing Necrons
Step 2 : Need a unit that can infiltrate/deep strike and has a packet load of attacks.
Step 3 : Get Grey Hunters??????

Seriously, the arguments over flayed ones HAVE to be in comparison to units that are actually IN the NECRON Codex.

Otherwise I'll just have CCBs, scarabs, Wraiths, Genestealers, Anni Barges and some Long Fangs.

LMAO i roared out in laughter at reading this, you made my day, and gave my wife a heartattack

I said the lists would gravitate towards similarity once points effectiveness had been discovered. About the tournament results you mentioned I'll say it's either a result of custom missions that favour wacky lists, or believe it or not the general level of competition being average or below average which naturally allows mediocre lists played by good generals to have success. This has nearly always been the case in every edition of the GW game systems. I think the only edition in either game where the tournaments were practically always won by real power lists was in the previous edition of Warhammer after the Daemons of Chaos had come out. Lastly, don't forget that it's a common practise (atleast here) for generals who believe in their abilities to intentionally take a weaker list to a tournament just to prove that they don't need to play the cutting edge razor sharp lists that are often labeled 'cheesy' by the masses to be able to take the top prize.

Yes but all tournaments have there idiosyncrasies that are going to favor certain units. That's why the notion of certain units that are always going to be the bestest in all possible scenarios (what a lot of people imply when they use words like "competitive" and TAC) is built on faulty assumptions.

Take the case at hand. I guarantee you, there are units that Flayed Ones fair better against in CC then Wraiths (TH/SS termies being the prominent example here, Halberd wielding GK another good example). Having both is going to add tactical flexibility that quite simply does not exist in a homogenized list.

It's certainly true that lists gravitate towards similarity at least to some extent-- almost nobody takes true dud units like Mandrakes, Blood Claws, or Swooping Hawks-- but I think there's still lots of variation even within the bounds of "standard" or "acceptable" choices.

I guess my question then would be simple-- how do you distinguish what is and isn't a "serious tournament list" if you believe that the general level of competition at tournaments is low and that good generals often take unserious lists on purpose to prove their skills? In other words, what metrics and means of evaluation do you use to assess what makes a good list, if not what lists win events?

Fetterkey wrote:It's certainly true that lists gravitate towards similarity at least to some extent-- almost nobody takes true dud units like Mandrakes, Blood Claws, or Swooping Hawks-- but I think there's still lots of variation even within the bounds of "standard" or "acceptable" choices.

I guess my question then would be simple-- how do you distinguish what is and isn't a "serious tournament list" if you believe that the general level of competition at tournaments is low and that good generals often take unserious lists on purpose to prove their skills? In other words, what metrics and means of evaluation do you use to assess what makes a good list, if not what lists win events?

Same way as an established race car driver with multiple trophies and a long win streak would evaluate his team's new car. How well the driver does with it in races is one thing of course but also how easy it is to drive the car, how does the car feel, how fast but also how reliable it is, how well it adapts to changing weather and various types of race tracks, how it matches against the current level of competition, and so on. In the end it'll always be the subjective opinion of the players themselves and you can't just put one criteria on judging an army list or a unit. Personally I weigh the list against the most fearsome lists I can design out of all the other competitive army books and see if I could reasonably expect to have success against all of those with the same list in various missions and deployments and rolls of who goes first. The objectivity of the opinion comes when multiple similar players with similar records agree about the findings and their results already or eventually validates their opinions in the public's eyes. Like I said, it always takes some time but in the end 'what's good' in any given book becomes more or less 'common knowledge' labeled as fact instead of opinion.

Same way as an established race car driver with multiple trophies and a long win streak would evaluate his team's new car. How well the driver does with it in races is one thing of course but also how easy it is to drive the car, how does the car feel, how fast but also how reliable it is, how well it adapts to changing weather and various types of race tracks, how it matches against the current level of competition, and so on. In the end it'll always be the subjective opinion of the players themselves and you can't just put one criteria on judging an army list or a unit. Personally I weigh the list against the most fearsome lists I can design out of all the other competitive army books and see if I could reasonably expect to have success against all of those with the same list in various missions and deployments and rolls of who goes first. The objectivity of the opinion comes when multiple similar players with similar records agree about the findings and their results already or eventually validates their opinions in the public's eyes. Like I said, it always takes some time but in the end 'what's good' in any given book becomes more or less 'common knowledge' labeled as fact instead of opinion.

I think in a perfect world filled with rational, epidemiologically precise players who have unlimited funds and can go to tournaments every day you could generate the required amount of data to fulfill your requirements and still come up with precise well tested conclusions.


However, reality is far from this army list generating utopia.


For financial and cosmetic reasons, the vast majority of players, particularly competitive players, are simply not going to give many units the time of day. They have good reason to have incredibly limiting criteria, they want to win and they want to win now. So with the dawn of each new codex, the vocal minority of power players flood the discourse with the most obvious choices. Then memetics, arbitrary conservatism, and game theory take over. A power gamer that has dumped a grand into what they initially considered the most competitive list/play style is going to be very resistant to concede the notion that they may not have made the right choices, even if it turns out that they simply made good, yet not truly superior, choices.

Take baseball for example. The sport operated for over a hundred years are some incredibly flawed premises of what made a truly cost effective competitive team. By comparison, in terms of time and resources invested into it, 40k is in its infancy, which is further complicated by the fact the aggragate meta is tweaked with every codex release, and completely altered with each edition.

I'll agree that they do present a problem , but my Guard army has never had problems dealing with Flayed ones , i simply pump you full of plasma shots and drop a Battle Cannon on your Necron with a Ressurection orb .......easy

I'll agree that they do present a problem , but my Guard army has never had problems dealing with Flayed ones , i simply pump you full of plasma shots and drop a Battle Cannon on your Necron with a Ressurection orb .......easy

My Necron with a Res Orb has T6, 3W and a 2+ armor save so....

Fetterkey wrote:

Therion wrote:Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

I'm not sure that's true. The typical "most points efficient spam" lists don't tend to actually win major events here in the US. I don't know of any major event that has ever been won by a Razorback spam for instance, though I think Stelek came close once. On the other hand, unusual lists like Footdar or Mike Brandt's Straken Guard have done fairly well for themselves. It's my impression that the "most points efficient spam" lists are a good way for a new or mid-level player to get better quickly, but truly advanced and experienced players are better served by taking units that fit their playstyle and making use of unexpected or underestimated choices.

This needs to be addressed ASAP.

First, Brandt's Straken Guard is mostly meltavets in Chimeras, Vendettas and an outflanking Al Raheem unit, all of which I would say are commonly held as effective and good by the majority of guard players. The only part of that list that I would say is very unique is the inclusion of Straken as a counter attack unit. Aside from that it still spams AV12. So you brought up a really, really poor example of a non-spam list. The list is very usual, it simply spends a little extra on the HQ to have some sort of CC ability.

Tony Kopach's dominant Space Wolf list is the best units in the codex, spammed over and over. The base of that list is almost all GH's, Razors, Long Fangs and Scouts. All of those are incredibly efficient and generally thought to be good units.

Look at the top 16 at Adepticon. Half the lists are henchman spam. Look at NOVA last year, the invitational winner brought a spammed out razor list. Stelek also won one of the top brackets in the Open, a 256 man tournament. I had a few friends in the upper brackets and most of the lists they faced were VERY redundant lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Same way as an established race car driver with multiple trophies and a long win streak would evaluate his team's new car. How well the driver does with it in races is one thing of course but also how easy it is to drive the car, how does the car feel, how fast but also how reliable it is, how well it adapts to changing weather and various types of race tracks, how it matches against the current level of competition, and so on. In the end it'll always be the subjective opinion of the players themselves and you can't just put one criteria on judging an army list or a unit. Personally I weigh the list against the most fearsome lists I can design out of all the other competitive army books and see if I could reasonably expect to have success against all of those with the same list in various missions and deployments and rolls of who goes first. The objectivity of the opinion comes when multiple similar players with similar records agree about the findings and their results already or eventually validates their opinions in the public's eyes. Like I said, it always takes some time but in the end 'what's good' in any given book becomes more or less 'common knowledge' labeled as fact instead of opinion.

I think in a perfect world filled with rational, epidemiologically precise players who have unlimited funds and can go to tournaments every day you could generate the required amount of data to fulfill your requirements and still come up with precise well tested conclusions.


However, reality is far from this army list generating utopia.


For financial and cosmetic reasons, the vast majority of players, particularly competitive players, are simply not going to give many units the time of day. They have good reason to have incredibly limiting criteria, they want to win and they want to win now. So with the dawn of each new codex, the vocal minority of power players flood the discourse with the most obvious choices. Then memetics, arbitrary conservatism, and game theory take over. A power gamer that has dumped a grand into what they initially considered the most competitive list/play style is going to be very resistant to concede the notion that they may not have made the right choices, even if it turns out that they simply made good, yet not truly superior, choices.

Take baseball for example. The sport operated for over a hundred years are some incredibly flawed premises of what made a truly cost effective competitive team. By comparison, in terms of time and resources invested into it, 40k is in its infancy, which is further complicated by the fact the aggragate meta is tweaked with every codex release, and completely altered with each edition.

I just cannot agree with this at all. I don't base my opinions of a unit on anything I read or hear from another player. In fact, when a new codex comes out I usually analyze it and am able to come to conclusions that the people I game with also come to, far before we ever discuss the codex. I think a simple look at a codex can illuminate what is obviously good and what is obviously bad.. Everyone knows that GW is pretty poor in their ability to write balanced codexes which is why there are so many units that are simply not up to par.

Almost all games suffer from this. Take video games for example. Most RPG's feature obviously good and exploitable powers/builds. Shooters often suffer from similar problems by featuring overpowered weapons. Other hobby games such as MTG also suffer from this. I'd venture to guess that ~50% of the cards MTG releases do not see competitive play because they are obviously worse than the power cards. I find 40k to be no different. Every codex has no-brainer units and they tend to be no-brainers for good reason. They tend to perform their roles at a very efficient cost.

LValx wrote:First, Brandt's Straken Guard is mostly meltavets in Chimeras, Vendettas and an outflanking Al Raheem unit, all of which I would say are commonly held as effective and good by the majority of guard players. The only part of that list that I would say is very unique is the inclusion of Straken as a counter attack unit. Aside from that it still spams AV12. So you brought up a really, really poor example of a non-spam list. The list is very usual, it simply spends a little extra on the HQ to have some sort of CC ability.

The overall flow and composition of the list is totally different, especially since it entirely skips the Heavy Support section of the Codex. Further, spamming a certain armor value is very, very different from spamming only conventionally accepted units and tactics.

LValx wrote:Tony Kopach's dominant Space Wolf list is the best units in the codex, spammed over and over. The base of that list is almost all GH's, Razors, Long Fangs and Scouts. All of those are incredibly efficient and generally thought to be good units.

And yet Kopach's unit configurations and choices confused many when his lists first came out-- larger GH squads? Njal? None of these things were standard.

Do I need to start talking about Hulksmash winning events with 60 GKSS guys on foot? I figured I would stick to lists that are well-known and unambiguously successful so that we wouldn't have to play the "level of play" game.

I just cannot agree with this at all. I don't base my opinions of a unit on anything I read or hear from another player. In fact, when a new codex comes out I usually analyze it and am able to come to conclusions that the people I game with also come to, far before we ever discuss the codex. I think a simple look at a codex can illuminate what is obviously good and what is obviously bad..

I'll agree with you that good players can independently come to conclusions about what is obviously good however:

Everyone knows that GW is pretty poor in their ability to write balanced codexes which is why there are so many units that are simply not up to par.

Is a faulty assumption, and everyone certainly doesn't know that. Now, know one is surprised when there are a few unpopular units, but to operate under the assumption of "once I've isolated the obviously good units, I can eliminate the others as obviously bad because GW, despite investing millions, can't do the basic maths that I can" is just poor reasoning. Any unit that is elevated through proper synergism is intrinsically resistant to such knee jerk first codex read through unit appraisals.

Also, despite your independent read through, don't think that you are going into it without the same pre concieved notions as the rest of your playing group, or the "consensus" of power gamers (MSU is king, Mech is king, DS sucks, reserve rolls suck...so forth and so on). Their are several assumptions people carry around when looking at new codices that may have been true for a previous codex, and may have been true for certain styles of play, but certainly aren't grounded in any objective reality. Just because apples are good, doesn't mean oranges are bad.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote:
Do I need to start talking about Hulksmash winning events with 60 GKSS guys on foot? I figured I would stick to lists that are well-known and unambiguously successful so that we wouldn't have to play the "level of play" game.

Exactly.

In fact him and Dash's blog and tournament records are standing testament that pre-concieved notions and "interweb consensus" are filled with faulty assumptions. Dash had tremendous success, as a relatively green player when first hitting the scene a couple of years ago, with two 3rd edition codices (DEldar and Crons) that 95% of the internet had written off.

So either A.) the man is an unprecedented Mensa that found the Rosetta Stone of those codices that was alluding others for 8 to 10 years or B.) he was simply new enough to the game and independent thinking enough to not get bogged down by the pre-concieved notions of others.

Personally, I'll go with B.

LValx wrote:First, Brandt's Straken Guard is mostly meltavets in Chimeras, Vendettas and an outflanking Al Raheem unit, all of which I would say are commonly held as effective and good by the majority of guard players. The only part of that list that I would say is very unique is the inclusion of Straken as a counter attack unit. Aside from that it still spams AV12. So you brought up a really, really poor example of a non-spam list. The list is very usual, it simply spends a little extra on the HQ to have some sort of CC ability.

And skips Manticores and Hydras. Vet spam is pretty common, but Mike's list does drop some IG standbys as well as taking Straken.

LValx wrote:Tony Kopach's dominant Space Wolf list is the best units in the codex, spammed over and over. The base of that list is almost all GH's, Razors, Long Fangs and Scouts. All of those are incredibly efficient and generally thought to be good units.

IIRC there are only two or three razors. More Rhinos, because of the larger squads. Before he did it, the internet echo chamber was full of razorspam. It's quieted down a bit and more focus has gone to GH in part because of Tony's list.

LValx wrote:Look at the top 16 at Adepticon. Half the lists are henchman spam.

No. 7/16 of the qualifying players (8/16 of the guys who played, as an Ork player had to drop and a GK was first alternate) were Grey Knights. Only a one or two of them spammed henchmen. There was actually a surprising amount of variety in the GK lists which qualified for the finals. Henchmen + Purifiers (Brad), pure Purifiers (the guy who knocked me out Friday), Paladin-heavy (Paul Murphy), and a very interesting nontraditional mixed list from Joachim were all present, to my immediate recollection.

I like flayed ones. only tried them once as a outflanking unit with furious charge. Worked ok. I need to try em with a warscythe orb overlord in there with a phase shifter to eat some of the higher strength shots have em join up after infiltrating.

I can see using a small unit of outflanking flayed ones to pick back field shooting units like devastators or a manticore, or a back field scoring unit.

I'm not sold on large units. A large unit of flayed one is 1 bad morale test away from annihilation. Let's use a 4 wound combat resolution as an example. Wraiths, scarabs, and sypders can all take 4 wounds from a bad round of CC, but a 20 block of flayed ones +destroyer lord have a 58.3% chance of breaking, being denied RP, and being run down because of their I2. The single failed morale test ending a 400+ point unit (260 for the flayed ones + 140+ for a HQ) is a deal breaker for me.

This was an interesting thread, and made me think about Flayed Ones. A couple points about "most efficient units" in general and for Necrons -

First, of course you have to make decisions based on your own codex, and I think LVatx has already been taken to task a bit for the Grey Hunters comparisons, but just to be clear - the only thing that matters in deciding whether to include Flayed Ones is whether it makes your list "better" (for some value of "better") as compared to other units you might include. And we're pretty sparse on good units in the Elite FOC slot.

Then, realize that any Necron army above a certain point threshold is going to fully populate its core HQ, FA and HS slots. The real question becomes what to do with the leftover points. For some lists, the "leftover points" can be virtually nil - the reason Therion's so adamant about skipping FO's is that he's made decisions for his core HQ, FA and HS units that are about the priciest possible. He's got the typical dual CCB or Imo/CCB, then two Wraiths and one Scarab for FA, then two Spyder and one DoomScythe for HS, iirc. That's about 1450-1550 pts, depending on whether he want's to kit the OLords for CC, initial Scarab count, etc. It's a bit more if he's going the Imotekh route (which I believe he is), but whatever - the point is his core 8 units aren't leaving enough points to afford a marginal unit.

If instead a Necron player goes 1 Wraith 2 Scarabs and substitutes an Annihilation Barge for the DoomScythe (both very viable alternatives), his core 8 units are about 200pts cheaper. Points are left over, and the only thing left to spend them on are Elites and Troops. Therion's otherwise logical objections aren't as relevant. If our hypothetical Necron player is also planning on some sort of MTO strategy and plans to swamp the opponent with targets *anyway*, then Flayed Ones eating a turn of fire before engaging isn't much of an issue. At this point he's asking himself - why not take them? What do we have that's a clearly better alternative?

TL;DR - you can make an argument.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:I'm not sold on large units. A large unit of flayed one is 1 bad morale test away from annihilation. Let's use a 4 wound combat resolution as an example. Wraiths, scarabs, and sypders can all take 4 wounds from a bad round of CC, but a 20 block of flayed ones +destroyer lord have a 58.3% chance of breaking, being denied RP, and being run down because of their I2. The single failed morale test ending a 400+ point unit (260 for the flayed ones + 140+ for a HQ) is a deal breaker for me.

This is the problem with all Necron infantry blocks, our stoopit initiative. It's even worse for clumps of Warriors backed up with a Ghost Ark and a Res Orb. You've spent all those points to make a resilient unit that'll Get Back Up and spawn replacements from the Ghost Ark, but one bad CC result and they're gone. It's even worse for them in that it's more likely you'll get a 4-wound differential - the one thing you can say about Flayed Ones is that they'll dish out some CC damage, likely reducing the CC wound differential to something more manageable.

Btw, 58% morale failure translates to 48% swept chance against an I4 opponent. Still not good.

Mannahnin wrote:

LValx wrote:First, Brandt's Straken Guard is mostly meltavets in Chimeras, Vendettas and an outflanking Al Raheem unit, all of which I would say are commonly held as effective and good by the majority of guard players. The only part of that list that I would say is very unique is the inclusion of Straken as a counter attack unit. Aside from that it still spams AV12. So you brought up a really, really poor example of a non-spam list. The list is very usual, it simply spends a little extra on the HQ to have some sort of CC ability.

And skips Manticores and Hydras. Vet spam is pretty common, but Mike's list does drop some IG standbys as well as taking Straken.

LValx wrote:Tony Kopach's dominant Space Wolf list is the best units in the codex, spammed over and over. The base of that list is almost all GH's, Razors, Long Fangs and Scouts. All of those are incredibly efficient and generally thought to be good units.

IIRC there are only two or three razors. More Rhinos, because of the larger squads. Before he did it, the internet echo chamber was full of razorspam. It's quieted down a bit and more focus has gone to GH in part because of Tony's list.

LValx wrote:Look at the top 16 at Adepticon. Half the lists are henchman spam.

No. 7/16 of the qualifying players (8/16 of the guys who played, as an Ork player had to drop and a GK was first alternate) were Grey Knights. Only a one or two of them spammed henchmen. There was actually a surprising amount of variety in the GK lists which qualified for the finals. Henchmen + Purifiers (Brad), pure Purifiers (the guy who knocked me out Friday), Paladin-heavy (Paul Murphy), and a very interesting nontraditional mixed list from Joachim were all present, to my immediate recollection.

He foregoes the Heavy Support, sure. But Mike still takes units that are efficient for their points (Vets, Chimeras, Vendettas). He also spams them out for redundancy, something that most good players build into their lists. I get that Mike eschews some IG "auto-includes" but that codex has so many that it is nigh impossible to fit them all anyway. My point is that he does not handicap himself by taking a dud unit, which I feel that the Flayed Ones are.

The same goes for Kopach. His list may not be MSU but it spams the most effective troop choice in the game and floods the table with them. My point is that the better lists out there generally leave dud, or inefficient units by the wayside in favor of things that are purely efficient.

Hulksmash takes a fairly different list, but if you look at his list he still doesnt take any dud units (I don't think there are very many in the GK codex which is why i'd say that it is a little bit OTT). Sitting there and referencing Dash has two sides to it. Have you seen his 5th Ed. Dark Eldar? That list is spammed to hell and takes the units that essentially everyone agrees are good from the codex. His old one did the same thing. His Orks also took efficient units.

I have definitely seen some top tier players take some units that I find to be inefficient but I haven't seen real dud units taken (mandrakes, swiftclaws, praetorians, etc). But I would say that most of them completely forego taking units that are obviously inefficient. I think the Flayed Ones fall into that category which is why I think you won't see any top players or top lists with them in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Adepticon..

Joakim played a list that took Coteaz, Draigo, Paladins, Henchmen with Razors, Dreads, Vindicare and Dreadknight.

Paul Murphy took Draigo, Paladins, Henchmen with Razors, Dreadnoughts and a Dreadknight.

Ankarlo took Purifiers in rhinos and razors with Dreads.

Cook took Henchmen in Razors, Dreads, Purifiers and Coteaz.

Grippando took Coteaz, Libby, Techmarine, Purifiers and Henchmen in Rhinos/Razors, Dreads and a LR.

Nick Nanavati takes Strikes in Razors, Purifiers, Dreads, Coteaz and Henchmen in a LR.

So what you see here is almost all the players pulling from the same relative pool. Almost each list took some form of henchman spam. I think it says something when 6 of the top 16 players take things that are very very similar. And the GK codex is probably one of THE most flexible codexes. The only "odd" units taken in these lists were the Vindicare and Dreadknight. The Vindicare I would put as unfavorable but I would hardly say he is a dud unit. The Dreadknight is probably one of the best MC's in the game and because of the relative cheapness of Henchmen, I think GK's can afford to take some things that may be a little overcosted, i.e., Land Raiders. The Dreadknights were also only taken in lists with Draigo which makes sense as he can allow them to easily get into backfield (outflank) or can make them score, thus making them far more flexible and efficient.

I also think you can't give Hulksmash's GK list too much credit, the GT he won was a much smaller event. He didnt do nearly as well at Adepticon.

I think the better lists tend to take the better units. Whether or not they take it in MSU form or not is not something that I am arguing. I am simply saying that good players realize what units are good and tend to take them. This may result in some non-traditional lists, i.e. Hulksmash's Footwolves but these lists still tend to take units that are generally perceived as "good" even if the list is built in an unconventional form, or takes some less conventional units. I generally try to build my lists in a similar manner.

oops


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Randall Turner wrote:This was an interesting thread, and made me think about Flayed Ones. A couple points about "most efficient units" in general and for Necrons -

First, of course you have to make decisions based on your own codex, and I think LVatx has already been taken to task a bit for the Grey Hunters comparisons, but just to be clear - the only thing that matters in deciding whether to include Flayed Ones is whether it makes your list "better" (for some value of "better") as compared to other units you might include. And we're pretty sparse on good units in the Elite FOC slot.

Then, realize that any Necron army above a certain point threshold is going to fully populate its core HQ, FA and HS slots. The real question becomes what to do with the leftover points. For some lists, the "leftover points" can be virtually nil - the reason Therion's so adamant about skipping FO's is that he's made decisions for his core HQ, FA and HS units that are about the priciest possible. He's got the typical dual CCB or Imo/CCB, then two Wraiths and one Scarab for FA, then two Spyder and one DoomScythe for HS, iirc. That's about 1450-1550 pts, depending on whether he want's to kit the OLords for CC, initial Scarab count, etc. It's a bit more if he's going the Imotekh route (which I believe he is), but whatever - the point is his core 8 units aren't leaving enough points to afford a marginal unit.

If instead a Necron player goes 1 Wraith 2 Scarabs and substitutes an Annihilation Barge for the DoomScythe (both very viable alternatives), his core 8 units are about 200pts cheaper. Points are left over, and the only thing left to spend them on are Elites and Troops. Therion's otherwise logical objections aren't as relevant. If our hypothetical Necron player is also planning on some sort of MTO strategy and plans to swamp the opponent with targets *anyway*, then Flayed Ones eating a turn of fire before engaging isn't much of an issue. At this point he's asking himself - why not take them? What do we have that's a clearly better alternative?

TL;DR - you can make an argument.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:I'm not sold on large units. A large unit of flayed one is 1 bad morale test away from annihilation. Let's use a 4 wound combat resolution as an example. Wraiths, scarabs, and sypders can all take 4 wounds from a bad round of CC, but a 20 block of flayed ones +destroyer lord have a 58.3% chance of breaking, being denied RP, and being run down because of their I2. The single failed morale test ending a 400+ point unit (260 for the flayed ones + 140+ for a HQ) is a deal breaker for me.

This is the problem with all Necron infantry blocks, our stoopit initiative. It's even worse for clumps of Warriors backed up with a Ghost Ark and a Res Orb. You've spent all those points to make a resilient unit that'll Get Back Up and spawn replacements from the Ghost Ark, but one bad CC result and they're gone. It's even worse for them in that it's more likely you'll get a 4-wound differential - the one thing you can say about Flayed Ones is that they'll dish out some CC damage, likely reducing the CC wound differential to something more manageable.

Btw, 58% morale failure translates to 48% swept chance against an I4 opponent. Still not good.

IMO, it'd at that point be better to take some toolbox Crypteks (which get very, very expensive quickly) and build some very solid troops choices, which is not cheap at all. It is very very easy to spend ~600-800 on troops (with the leftover points you could also get 2 Night Scythes which I would say is far far better than 15 Flayed Ones).

LValx wrote:IMO, it'd at that point be better to take some toolbox Crypteks (which get very, very expensive quickly) and build some very solid troops choices, which is not cheap at all. It is very very easy to spend ~600-800 on troops (with the leftover points you could also get 2 Night Scythes which I would say is far far better than 15 Flayed Ones).

<shrug> The point is that you're no longer discussing swapping out obviously better FA/HS choices - you're now considering troop blocks or big flying AV11 "shoot me" targets.

The point is even after maxing out hq, fa and hs there are still better choices, scythes being one of them. I'd say armor saturation is always a good thing. And scythes will require high str shooting to take down, the same type of shooting generally required to effectively hurt barges, wraiths, scarabs and spyders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reecius' footdar and dash's old crons were both incredibly tough lists because of the synergistic relations between the units. Ive challenged the op multiple times to post an example list that uses FOs and he still has yet to do so.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

I'll agree that they do present a problem , but my Guard army has never had problems dealing with Flayed ones , i simply pump you full of plasma shots and drop a Battle Cannon on your Necron with a Ressurection orb .......easy

My Necron with a Res Orb has T6, 3W and a 2+ armor save so....

Im , My normal Infantry body has 24 Plasma Guns (about) , Strength 7 AP 2 your Armor save is pointless and anyway out of 24 plasma guns almost more then half will hit , out of the sheer number of shots you'r going to die , but interms of the Battle cannon , Strength 8 AP 4 i think ( can't recall right now ) you would be hard pressed to get even close enough to use your flayed ones muhahahahaha

Kasrkin229 wrote:Im , My normal Infantry body has ...[waffles on about army]... you would be hard pressed to get even close enough to use your flayed ones muhahahahaha

cool story, bro

That's cool you just spend nearly all your shooting on one unit. My wraith units now charge untouched. Vacuum is still a vacuum

I would never attach a Destroyer Lord to FO. As noted if you lose combat then the odds are that you'll lose him by being sweeped. If FO were fearless then it might make sense. There are so many better units to take that I don't see any competitive any Necron army fielding them... They are too much of a detriment to the army as a whole.

-666- wrote:I would never attach a Destroyer Lord to FO. As noted if you lose combat then the odds are that you'll lose him by being sweeped. If FO were fearless then it might make sense. There are so many better units to take that I don't see any competitive any Necron army fielding them... They are too much of a detriment to the army as a whole.

Thats the thing. I use FOs quite often (I have 22 of the old models) and would never run them without a DLord. They mitigate many of the problems FOs have (no pw access, no rez orb) without taking away their ability to DS (if that is your thing). About the only problem it doesnt in any way solve is the problem if I2 which is a problem the entire army has. The DLords warscythe goes a long way toward evening out the combat rez. The FOs are still getting 3 attacks each (assuming no charge bonus) which with a decent size squad is nothing to sneeze at. IMHO FOs should have stayed at I4 but thats neither here nor there.

Are they the best or easiest to use unit in the dex...no they arent. Can they still be used to great effect in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize what they can bring to the table...absolutely!

Shake Zoola wrote:

-666- wrote:I would never attach a Destroyer Lord to FO. As noted if you lose combat then the odds are that you'll lose him by being sweeped. If FO were fearless then it might make sense. There are so many better units to take that I don't see any competitive any Necron army fielding them... They are too much of a detriment to the army as a whole.

Thats the thing. I use FOs quite often (I have 22 of the old models) and would never run them without a DLord. They mitigate many of the problems FOs have (no pw access, no rez orb) without taking away their ability to DS (if that is your thing). About the only problem it doesnt in any way solve is the problem if I2 which is a problem the entire army has. The DLords warscythe goes a long way toward evening out the combat rez. The FOs are still getting 3 attacks each (assuming no charge bonus) which with a decent size squad is nothing to sneeze at. IMHO FOs should have stayed at I4 but thats neither here nor there.

Are they the best or easiest to use unit in the dex...no they arent. Can they still be used to great effect in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize what they can bring to the table...absolutely!

A DLord by himself contributes 2 to 3 casualties. A large enough group of FOs should generate at least 2 or 3 themselves. The list of CC units that are actually taken that can inflict more then 4 to 6 cassualties in one round against Flayed Ones is very very small.

Edit: I like this pic better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

They are too much of a detriment to the army as a whole.

Detriment? Do they make the other units worse?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

They are too much of a detriment to the army as a whole.

Detriment? Do they make the other units worse?

I think he was referring to the fact that you have to spend points on them that could have been put to (potentially) better use elsewhere.

skoffs wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

They are too much of a detriment to the army as a whole.

Detriment? Do they make the other units worse?

I think he was referring to the fact that you have to spend points on them that could have been put to (potentially) better use elsewhere.

Yeah I figured he meant the opportunity cost. The wording was a bit odd though. Like the Flayed Ones might turn around and start stabbing the warriors .

Why I'm not a fan of the 20 block, let's start with GK

Crowe alone versus 20 FO + Dlord

Crowe positions goes into shield of blades defensive stance forgoing all attacks to reroll his 2+/4++ saves. His blade rends on a 4+, which means when it auto wounds from mind shackle scarabs it's not a rend and Crowe gets a 2+ with a reroll for his save. The Dlord and FO won't do much to Crowe while he has shielf of blades up.

Math hammer FO V Crowe 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/6 fail armor save 1/6 fail re roll to armor save= 1/144 attacks do a wound to Crowe while shield of blades is up.

Crowe does purifying flames dropping 10 wound and 5 unsaved wounds against the FO.

About a 50/50 chance that Crowe does 2 wounds to himself from mind shackle, non rending, each with a 1/36 chance of him failing his armor save, so it's pretty much the same as 4 FO attacks.

15 FO with 4A each + the equivalent of 4 more from MS for 66 attacks each with a 1/144 chance of wounding Crowe=0.46 wounds

Dlord 4A 1/2 hit 5/6 wound 1/2 fail invo 1/2 fail re roll to invo=20/48= 0.41 wounds

Grand total for Combat resolution
Crowe generated 5 wounds
FO +Dlord generated 0.97 wounds round up to 1
Crowe wins by 4 wounds
400+ points of necrons now have a 58.3% chance of breaking, being denied RP, and being run down by Crowe who has an I6.

By attaching the DL to the FO you are placing him in harm's way and losing the advantage of him being fearless.

-666- wrote:By attaching the DL to the FO you are placing him in harm's way and losing the advantage of him being fearless.

Uh the lord isnt fearless...

I see your Crowe against a unit of flayed ones and raise you 4 lancetek wounds to the face.

Leth wrote:I see your Crowe against a unit of flayed ones and raise you 4 lancetek wounds to the face.

Thats a problem that pretty much any horde unit faces as well. Its not really unique to FOs or necrons...

EDIT to add: Im talking about crowe taking out the horde of FOs easy...seems I quoted the wrong person...

schadenfreude wrote:Why I'm not a fan of the 20 block, let's start with GK

Crowe alone versus 20 FO + Dlord

Crowe positions goes into shield of blades defensive stance forgoing all attacks to reroll his 2+/4++ saves. His blade rends on a 4+, which means when it auto wounds from mind shackle scarabs it's not a rend and Crowe gets a 2+ with a reroll for his save. The Dlord and FO won't do much to Crowe while he has shielf of blades up.

Math hammer FO V Crowe 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/6 fail armor save 1/6 fail re roll to armor save= 1/144 attacks do a wound to Crowe while shield of blades is up.

Crowe does purifying flames dropping 10 wound and 5 unsaved wounds against the FO.

About a 50/50 chance that Crowe does 2 wounds to himself from mind shackle, non rending, each with a 1/36 chance of him failing his armor save, so it's pretty much the same as 4 FO attacks.

15 FO with 4A each + the equivalent of 4 more from MS for 66 attacks each with a 1/144 chance of wounding Crowe=0.46 wounds

Dlord 4A 1/2 hit 5/6 wound 1/2 fail invo 1/2 fail re roll to invo=20/48= 0.41 wounds

Grand total for Combat resolution
Crowe generated 5 wounds
FO +Dlord generated 0.97 wounds round up to 1
Crowe wins by 4 wounds
400+ points of necrons now have a 58.3% chance of breaking, being denied RP, and being run down by Crowe who has an I6.

There are a few minor issues with your calculations here.
Crowe can still rend himself, with his blade, as MSS auto-hits, you still have to roll to wound.
The Dlord also has Preferred enemy, so he should hit on 2/3rds of his attacks.

Nothing to really swing it in the Necrons favor, but enough to make a small difference.

While a bit off on a tangent, I wonder what the Order of precedence is between MSS/CF/Perfect Warrior. Do they all go off at the same time, since they share almost the exact same wording? Maybe something for YMDC.

I would say that they all begin at the same time, however one of them might say at the start of the assault phase, and another might say before the model attacks. Dont have the grey knights book anymore to say for sure though

A Destroyer Lord is fearless.

They are an anti infantry unit in an army that has tons of it. Immortals and Warriors are also good at killing infantry and they score.

You HAVE to take Immortals/Warriors and they CANNOT take anti vehicle firepower (unless you put Destruckteks with them). This means you have to take a bunch of stuff that kills light infantry. Why would you take even more stuff that kills light infantry? How many lists these days even put down that many targets? Most armies consists of space marines in rhinos/razorbacks/landraiders.

20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord. On the charge, they will unload with sixty attacks. Let's say two thirds hit, so forty, then I get to reroll ten ones and two thirds of those hit, so forty six to seven potential wounds. Roughly seven or eight will be rending hits and wound regardless so that's seven or eight flayed ones down straight away. I'd say about thirty to twenty eight would wound with toxin sacs after subtracting the rending hits. Let's say only fifteen to fourteen get by the armour save.

This means in one round I have at worst killed twenty one flayed ones, at best twenty three. Six flayed ones stand back up, deal eighteen attacks, of which only six hit, only three wound, and only two get by the armour save. You've lost combat by nineteen to twenty one and your remaining flayed ones are probably going to be chased off the table.

Of course, Lychguard and Praetorians would also be cut down by 20 tricked out genestealers. Heck, outside of a royal court disco inferno or wraiths there really isn't much in the Necron Codex that will survive a super stealer brood charge. Of course, I probably should be thankful that Anrakyr and Szeras can't buff Lychguards.

Really, flayed ones should be in the troops section, canon fodder units in the elites section is kind of odd, and they wouldn't be competing with Lychguards, Deathmarks, and Triarch Stalkers. They should also count as having two close combat weapons to get four attacks and get rending or perhaps reroll to hit or wound, then I think more people would use them.

Really, pretty much every Necron player I've met would rather take Lychguards and Triarch Stalkers for their Elites section, and maybe Deathmarks if they don't expect many vehicles coming their way.

-666- wrote:A Destroyer Lord is fearless.

No he is not. Check your codex again...

Well, seeing as were going on and on about some of the best units vs poor little old flayed ones...lets bring some heavy hitting necrons to the table...

20 genestealers meet two un attached royal courts, with each with 5 fully kitted out lords thats warscythe, res orb, semi weave, and MSS and the everything else that matters

so, thats 2 squads of str7 init 2, ws4 attacks 2, 2+/3++ guys. Also, we'll throw in each court a harbinger of the storm equipped with the lightning field, each with a destrucktek armed with a gaze of flame, and just for hecks sake, each with a chrono tek with the chronotron.

Also, we'll field them meshed together. Yes they cant join in one big blob, but you can arrange them so multi assault is a near must rather than a not must.

my 16 guys vs your 20 genestealers. We'll give you the assault. So, thats 2d6 str 8 ap 5 wounds right off the bat. No extra attacks for you because of my nades, and now lets resolve the MSS. Lets say we bandersnatch half our lords numbers in genies. How many does that leave you with?

Ill hop on vassal and roll right now and tell you the results. So the lightning field? 7 str 8 hits. down to 13. Now lets do the MSS. 10 rolls, at ld 10. 5 lol halfsies. Ok, so now you are attacking me with 8 genestealers. Lets split the attacks, 4 on one squad, 4 on the other. Overall toughness 5. 1 wound on one, one rend and a wound on the other. my saves, all on lords. first group saves, second group fails a rend. 4 lords left. Now your attacks on yourselves. Forgot to roll the d3 apiece, so ill do that now. 9 attacks on yourself from 5 guys. Thats 5 wounds and a rending wound so six total. One bites it, leaving twelve, and now your 5+ saves. 3 saves, 2 dead. So, so far its your 10 dead vs my 1 dead. Now my rolls, 9 lords. 2 power wounds, and none from the clownteks. so you are down 12 to my one. Leadership test, you need double 1's to continue....

Do you see where im going? I mean, if i throw the fiercest thing in my army against your something, Uh, i might knock it down. In this example we turned your touted genestealers into virtual flayed ones (wiped them or atleast fled them in 1 round of assault)


Once again, i think its supposed to be a flayed ones vs necron units comparison, not a What Would Calgar Do type deal. Or even Oh yeah! My LR vs your flayed ones hmmmm!

-666- wrote:A Destroyer Lord is fearless.

No, he's not.

Basimpo wrote:Well, seeing as were going on and on about some of the best units vs poor little old flayed ones...lets bring some heavy hitting necrons to the table...

20 genestealers meet two un attached royal courts, with each with 5 fully kitted out lords thats warscythe, res orb, semi weave, and MSS and the everything else that matters

so, thats 2 squads of str7 init 2, ws4 attacks 2, 2+/3++ guys. Also, we'll throw in each court a harbinger of the storm equipped with the lightning field, each with a destrucktek armed with a gaze of flame, and just for hecks sake, each with a chrono tek with the chronotron.

Also, we'll field them meshed together. Yes they cant join in one big blob, but you can arrange them so multi assault is a near must rather than a not must.

my 16 guys vs your 20 genestealers. We'll give you the assault. So, thats 2d6 str 8 ap 5 wounds right off the bat. No extra attacks for you because of my nades, and now lets resolve the MSS. Lets say we bandersnatch half our lords numbers in genies. How many does that leave you with?

Ill hop on vassal and roll right now and tell you the results. So the lightning field? 7 str 8 hits. down to 13. Now lets do the MSS. 10 rolls, at ld 10. 5 lol halfsies. Ok, so now you are attacking me with 8 genestealers. Lets split the attacks, 4 on one squad, 4 on the other. Overall toughness 5. 1 wound on one, one rend and a wound on the other. my saves, all on lords. first group saves, second group fails a rend. 4 lords left. Now your attacks on yourselves. Forgot to roll the d3 apiece, so ill do that now. 9 attacks on yourself from 5 guys. Thats 5 wounds and a rending wound so six total. One bites it, leaving twelve, and now your 5+ saves. 3 saves, 2 dead. So, so far its your 10 dead vs my 1 dead. Now my rolls, 9 lords. 2 power wounds, and none from the clownteks. so you are down 12 to my one. Leadership test, you need double 1's to continue....

Do you see where im going? I mean, if i throw the fiercest thing in my army against your something, Uh, i might knock it down. In this example we turned your touted genestealers into virtual flayed ones (wiped them or atleast fled them in 1 round of assault)


Once again, i think its supposed to be a flayed ones vs necron units comparison, not a What Would Calgar Do type deal. Or even Oh yeah! My LR vs your flayed ones hmmmm!

Silly post. His point is a good one because Genestealers are comparable in both price and function to Flayed Ones. 14 pts vs 13 pts for infiltrating CC units. The Genestealers cost 1 pt more a model, thats it. How much more did your squad cost? And you multi-assaulted. Get real. If you want to prove a point you need to do a much better job of it. Anyway, let's look at their profiles:

Flayed One: WS4, STR4, T4, I2, LD10, A3, 4+
Genestealer: WS6, STR4, T4, I6, LD10, A2, 5+

The Flayed Ones have infiltrate and reanimation protocols.
The Genestealers have infiltrate, fleet, move through cover, can score AND rend.

I think comparing the two units is worthwhile. If they fulfilled different roles I'd agree that comparing them is faulty, however they both serve the same purpose and the Genestealers are HEAD and SHOULDERS above the Flayed Ones in essentially every way. The FO's have more durability but a good player will almost always have his Genestealers in cover, they are also incredibly easy to give FNP to WITHOUT gimping the rest of the army. Genestealers are the perfect example of why I think Flayed Ones are almost completely worthless. Necron players don't need extra anti-infantry as the Wraiths EXCEL at that function.

If FO's were troops they could be passable (partially because Cron troops are underwhelming as a whole) but as an Elites choice they are very, very poor. I could care less that the rest of the Elites choices are sub-par. There are plenty of codexes that make little to no use of certain FOC. GK's rarely take fast attack. SW's rarely take fast attack. IG doesn't generally use elites anymore. Just because Elites are available doesn't mean you HAVE to take them. There should always be more efficient and better ways to spend left-over points.

LValx wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Well, seeing as were going on and on about some of the best units vs poor little old flayed ones...lets bring some heavy hitting necrons to the table...

20 genestealers meet two un attached royal courts, with each with 5 fully kitted out lords thats warscythe, res orb, semi weave, and MSS and the everything else that matters

so, thats 2 squads of str7 init 2, ws4 attacks 2, 2+/3++ guys. Also, we'll throw in each court a harbinger of the storm equipped with the lightning field, each with a destrucktek armed with a gaze of flame, and just for hecks sake, each with a chrono tek with the chronotron.

Also, we'll field them meshed together. Yes they cant join in one big blob, but you can arrange them so multi assault is a near must rather than a not must.

my 16 guys vs your 20 genestealers. We'll give you the assault. So, thats 2d6 str 8 ap 5 wounds right off the bat. No extra attacks for you because of my nades, and now lets resolve the MSS. Lets say we bandersnatch half our lords numbers in genies. How many does that leave you with?

<more example>.

Do you see where im going? I mean, if i throw the fiercest thing in my army against your something, Uh, i might knock it down. In this example we turned your touted genestealers into virtual flayed ones (wiped them or atleast fled them in 1 round of assault)


Once again, i think its supposed to be a flayed ones vs necron units comparison, not a What Would Calgar Do type deal. Or even Oh yeah! My LR vs your flayed ones hmmmm!

Silly post. His point is a good one because Genestealers are comparable in both price and function to Flayed Ones. 14 pts vs 13 pts for infiltrating CC units. The Genestealers cost 1 pt more a model, thats it. How much more did your squad cost? And you multi-assaulted. Get real. If you want to prove a point you need to do a much better job of it. Anyway, let's look at their profiles:

<more comparison>. Genestealers are the perfect example of why I think Flayed Ones are almost completely worthless.

Actually not a silly post at all. Absolutely correct and as relevant as your comparison to grey hunters earlier. Again, imho, comparisons to other units in other codexes are not relevant.

Let's turn the example around. Say we are talking about why genestealers are good, and people are saying they are not because they are comparing to 2 groups of 5 Necron Lords which take them down routinely. Are you suggesting that genestealers are worthless because of that? Tell you what, find ANY unit that will take consistently win CC against the Court and we'll all agree that that unit is good and all others are worthless.

Btw, please don't say that it isn't a valid comparison because no one fields 2 Courts. Let's just agree that atm most tournament lists haven't got around to including them.....just like Flayed Ones

LValx wrote:If FO's were troops they could be passable (partially because Cron troops are underwhelming as a whole) but as an Elites choice they are very, very poor. I could care less that the rest of the Elites choices are sub-par.

So apparently you are not a necron player then.

LValx wrote: There are plenty of codexes that make little to no use of certain FOC. GK's rarely take fast attack. SW's rarely take fast attack. IG doesn't generally use elites anymore. Just because Elites are available doesn't mean you HAVE to take them. There should always be more efficient and better ways to spend left-over points.

I'm happy that the Necron codex gives me at least a modicum of CC ability in 2 slots. GW , in their infinite wisdom, chose to put wraiths in the FA slot with a load of other good stuff - I can only assume that was to ensure that good players had to work harder to balance their CC capability, particularly as troops are poor at it. So GOOD generals do have a choice which allows them to have a scarab farm and CC. (see what I did there?

Flayed Ones aren't worthless, imho. They require an experienced general and a specific strategy which means you have to know what you are doing to use them. They are exactly the same as D&D combos in this regard.

As an aside, you imagine the reaction if GW swapped wraiths and flayed one positions in the FoC? Literally anyone could put together a Necron list that would take out everything. I mean you'd have to work really hard to come up with a losing list.

MarkCron wrote:

LValx wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Well, seeing as were going on and on about some of the best units vs poor little old flayed ones...lets bring some heavy hitting necrons to the table...

20 genestealers meet two un attached royal courts, with each with 5 fully kitted out lords thats warscythe, res orb, semi weave, and MSS and the everything else that matters

so, thats 2 squads of str7 init 2, ws4 attacks 2, 2+/3++ guys. Also, we'll throw in each court a harbinger of the storm equipped with the lightning field, each with a destrucktek armed with a gaze of flame, and just for hecks sake, each with a chrono tek with the chronotron.

Also, we'll field them meshed together. Yes they cant join in one big blob, but you can arrange them so multi assault is a near must rather than a not must.

my 16 guys vs your 20 genestealers. We'll give you the assault. So, thats 2d6 str 8 ap 5 wounds right off the bat. No extra attacks for you because of my nades, and now lets resolve the MSS. Lets say we bandersnatch half our lords numbers in genies. How many does that leave you with?

<more example>.

Do you see where im going? I mean, if i throw the fiercest thing in my army against your something, Uh, i might knock it down. In this example we turned your touted genestealers into virtual flayed ones (wiped them or atleast fled them in 1 round of assault)


Once again, i think its supposed to be a flayed ones vs necron units comparison, not a What Would Calgar Do type deal. Or even Oh yeah! My LR vs your flayed ones hmmmm!

Silly post. His point is a good one because Genestealers are comparable in both price and function to Flayed Ones. 14 pts vs 13 pts for infiltrating CC units. The Genestealers cost 1 pt more a model, thats it. How much more did your squad cost? And you multi-assaulted. Get real. If you want to prove a point you need to do a much better job of it. Anyway, let's look at their profiles:

<more comparison>. Genestealers are the perfect example of why I think Flayed Ones are almost completely worthless.

Actually not a silly post at all. Absolutely correct and as relevant as your comparison to grey hunters earlier. Again, imho, comparisons to other units in other codexes are not relevant.

Let's turn the example around. Say we are talking about why genestealers are good, and people are saying they are not because they are comparing to 2 groups of 5 Necron Lords which take them down routinely. Are you suggesting that genestealers are worthless because of that? Tell you what, find ANY unit that will take consistently win CC against the Court and we'll all agree that that unit is good and all others are worthless.

Btw, please don't say that it isn't a valid comparison because no one fields 2 Courts. Let's just agree that atm most tournament lists haven't got around to including them.....just like Flayed Ones

LValx wrote:If FO's were troops they could be passable (partially because Cron troops are underwhelming as a whole) but as an Elites choice they are very, very poor. I could care less that the rest of the Elites choices are sub-par.

So apparently you are not a necron player then.

LValx wrote: There are plenty of codexes that make little to no use of certain FOC. GK's rarely take fast attack. SW's rarely take fast attack. IG doesn't generally use elites anymore. Just because Elites are available doesn't mean you HAVE to take them. There should always be more efficient and better ways to spend left-over points.

I'm happy that the Necron codex gives me at least a modicum of CC ability in 2 slots. GW , in their infinite wisdom, chose to put wraiths in the FA slot with a load of other good stuff - I can only assume that was to ensure that good players had to work harder to balance their CC capability, particularly as troops are poor at it. So GOOD generals do have a choice which allows them to have a scarab farm and CC. (see what I did there?

Flayed Ones aren't worthless, imho. They require an experienced general and a specific strategy which means you have to know what you are doing to use them. They are exactly the same as D&D combos in this regard.

As an aside, you imagine the reaction if GW swapped wraiths and flayed one positions in the FoC? Literally anyone could put together a Necron list that would take out everything. I mean you'd have to work really hard to come up with a losing list.

The Court comparison is awful because that court would cost at least twice as much as the 20 man genestealer brick. The GH comparison was far more palatable because it was a comparison of EQUAL points. I wont sit here and compare FO's to 1000 pts worth of TWC because that would be incredibly faulty. But I damn well will compare them to similarly costed units that perform similar roles.

Yeah, the court thing is over the top. The proper thing to say though, is "hey, against a dedicated CC army like Tyranids, that extra CC power isn't going to help as much as the firepower troop unit you're replacing." The Nids are going to out-CC even our top notch dedicated CC units, and their mid-tier ones are going to be much better than our mid tier ones. That's just the way it is.

And honestly, I'm not even sure I'd call Genestealers mid-tier. They're good even in a good CC list.

Hmmm, so it's bad to compare to alternatives that are IN the Codex and which a Necron player might be able to take, but OK to compare to a unit which the Necron player can NEVER take.

The court example is only "awful" because you are comparing on a single unit basis. Sure, it is a lot of points, but that Royal Court disco will take out multiple units (say multiple bricks of genestealers). So, it is a valid question for the NECRON player who doesn't have genestealers.

Maybe the difference is in the context in which the op stated the original argument. He stated, quite concisely, why Flayed Ones are good i.e. their advantages. For me, the whole point of the thread is that it was targeted at NECRON players who currently dismiss them because of what they read on the internet (hence the tongue in cheek reference to "and YOU are bad").

Over the course of the thread, it's clear that there are some generals and some circumstances where FO could be good, in terms of the balance they can bring to the NECRON list - which, after all, is the whole point of combining units in the first place.

In this context (i.e. building a Necron list), comparisons to other units in other Codexes are irrelevant. Sure, they may not be as points efficient as genestealers or grey hunters, but when you can't choose those because they are not in the codex, its not relevant. In this case it is a trade off between wraiths, FO and something else (court disco).

Before this thread, FO were probably not even in this equation. Thought process was "hmmm.. FA slots full, need some CC - get immortals and buff with crypteks".

As a number of people have said, FO can situationally and tactically hold their own against various other units for long enough for it to make a difference in the game. To me, that makes them "good" enough to warrant consideration - as opposed to dismissing them on the basis they are worse than genestealers/grey hunters/termies/<insert your favourite CC unit here>.

Also I am a fan of trying to outflank them, but then again maybe in a month when we see how things have changed we might all be talking about it differently. It really only takes a change to one of the rules they have access to to make them pretty good.

Lol I was trying to point out what its like to bring just random stuff to the necron table that doesnt really matter.

For example, if you truly believe that the point to point comparison is valid, then lets take a look at 20 FOs (260 points) vs a Landraider (about 240 points)...Hm, i think the FOs will overpower it just based on the points...

Really, if your NECRON army isnt based around lance teks who want a twinlinking wondertwin powers given from Stalkers, then the flayed ones popping in to distract your opponent while you run your ten squad of warscythe/sword and shield lychguard across the board is a good idea.

I loooove my lychguard. Anything that doesnt make them a bullseye makes me happy. I have nooo problem sacrificing lesser units like flayed ones to the grinder if i can get my lychguard into CC.

Another thing, I dont play to maintain 100% of my troops. I usually designate "sacrificial" troops. The flayed ones would be the ultimate sacrificial troops. I mean, come on, they deepstrike 6 inches infront of someone? Id be irritated enough to shoot them.

I kinda think that Daemons and DSers in general will get a nice little boost in the next edition, being able to assault from DS. Of course, this doesnt turn them into meat grinders, but now instead of choosing whether you want to spend your next turns firepower on them or not, I ds in, and assault, and hopefully hold out that turn. Effectively your units turn of shooting wasted. Yes, there are risks, they arnt fearless, but thats been beat to death earlier, and i hate math hammer anyway. Its more about randomization and luck for me anyday over Hm, well, ill roll 58.65343% of 7s

Over the course of the thread, it's clear that there are some generals and some circumstances where FO could be good, in terms of the balance they can bring to the NECRON list - which, after all, is the whole point of combining units in the first place.

In this context (i.e. building a Necron list), comparisons to other units in other Codexes are irrelevant. Sure, they may not be as points efficient as genestealers or grey hunters, but when you can't choose those because they are not in the codex, its not relevant. In this case it is a trade off between wraiths, FO and something else (court disco).

Sure, Necrons can't take Genestealers and Grey Hunters, but Necron players will be facing off against these things occasionally. Flayed Ones ONLY ability is to threaten general infantry units. Genestealers and Grey Hunters are the type of unit that Flayed Ones must go after. Sadly, those units are far more efficient, have duality, and encompass similar battlefield roles as Flayed Ones, just in a different armies.

If a Necron player wants to compete with armies that are taking more efficient and hands down better units, they need to in turn stick with the better units in their codex. In this case, if I want close combat I take Wraiths and Scarabs. In my 2k Necron list I have 2 units of 6 allocated Wraiths at 245 points per unit and 7 Scarab bases at 105 points. Which means that around 600 points of my army is dedicated to close combat. Additionally, these units are fast and have the ability to preform multiple roles of the battlefield, something Flayed Ones cannot.

Would I take 15 Flayed Ones over 11 Immortals, or 5 Immortals in a Night Scythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Wraiths, Scarabs, or Tomb Blades? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Annihilation Barges, Spyders, or even a Doomscythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a CCB or adding Crypteks? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a Stalker? Absolutely not.

I can make an completely competitive Necron force from the above units and regularly do. I have never felt that I was lacking what the Flayed Ones could bring to the table. Not once. The reason is that even if I can use them as some sort of flanking strike, they lack the ability to threaten armor, and armor is everywhere. So, they reach my opponent and get a few glances if I'm lucky.

Flayed Ones are bad in comparison to similar units in other armies and commonly seen units in other armies. They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality. They aren't fearless, so if they lose combat, they are afraid. They aren't a top 3 close combat unit in their own codex. The best thing you can say about them is that they debatably the second best Elites choice in the Cron dex. That's like saying Raptors are the best fast attack choice for Chaos Space Marines. It doesn't make you good, just better than other bad things.

To the OP:

This is amazing, Running an all CC-Wraithwing/ Spyders army, a good saving grace for one turn may be a 65 point distraction that are flayed ones.

JGrand wrote:

Over the course of the thread, it's clear that there are some generals and some circumstances where FO could be good, in terms of the balance they can bring to the NECRON list - which, after all, is the whole point of combining units in the first place.

In this context (i.e. building a Necron list), comparisons to other units in other Codexes are irrelevant. Sure, they may not be as points efficient as genestealers or grey hunters, but when you can't choose those because they are not in the codex, its not relevant. In this case it is a trade off between wraiths, FO and something else (court disco).

Sure, Necrons can't take Genestealers and Grey Hunters, but Necron players will be facing off against these things occasionally. Flayed Ones ONLY ability is to threaten general infantry units. Genestealers and Grey Hunters are the type of unit that Flayed Ones must go after. Sadly, those units are far more efficient, have duality, and encompass similar battlefield roles as Flayed Ones, just in a different armies.

If a Necron player wants to compete with armies that are taking more efficient and hands down better units, they need to in turn stick with the better units in their codex. In this case, if I want close combat I take Wraiths and Scarabs. In my 2k Necron list I have 2 units of 6 allocated Wraiths at 245 points per unit and 7 Scarab bases at 105 points. Which means that around 600 points of my army is dedicated to close combat. Additionally, these units are fast and have the ability to preform multiple roles of the battlefield, something Flayed Ones cannot.

Would I take 15 Flayed Ones over 11 Immortals, or 5 Immortals in a Night Scythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Wraiths, Scarabs, or Tomb Blades? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Annihilation Barges, Spyders, or even a Doomscythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a CCB or adding Crypteks? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a Stalker? Absolutely not.

I can make an completely competitive Necron force from the above units and regularly do. I have never felt that I was lacking what the Flayed Ones could bring to the table. Not once. The reason is that even if I can use them as some sort of flanking strike, they lack the ability to threaten armor, and armor is everywhere. So, they reach my opponent and get a few glances if I'm lucky.

Flayed Ones are bad in comparison to similar units in other armies and commonly seen units in other armies. They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality. They aren't fearless, so if they lose combat, they are afraid. They aren't a top 3 close combat unit in their own codex. The best thing you can say about them is that they debatably the second best Elites choice in the Cron dex. That's like saying Raptors are the best fast attack choice for Chaos Space Marines. It doesn't make you good, just better than other bad things.

I suppose next you are going to tell me wraith lords are crap, as are tyranids and monoliths. What you are forgetting is that not everything is numbers on paper, The way you play and use them is what really determines their worth. I could see myself playing a list with them, some people could not and that is fine. I regularly won with a tyranids warrior based list I think monoliths are good as long as you remember they are different than they used to be. Wraithlords were in the "gakky" footdar list

I suppose next you are going to tell me wraith lords are crap, as are tyranids and monoliths. What you are forgetting is that not everything is numbers on paper, The way you play and use them is what really determines their worth. I could see myself playing a list with them, some people could not and that is fine. I regularly won with a tyranids warrior based list I think monoliths are good as long as you remember they are different than they used to be. Wraithlords were in the "gakky" footdar list

Wow. The guy explained himself in as simple terms as its humanly possible and yet you didn't get anything he said. We understand that you like playing with points inefficient units and bad armies but don't even try to claim that just because you can use garbage against garbage the other options wouldn't still be a lot better. If you want to make this a discussion about why we all should use garbage in our armies I think you should make a new thread. It'll no doubt be an interesting read.

JGrand wrote:

Over the course of the thread, it's clear that there are some generals and some circumstances where FO could be good, in terms of the balance they can bring to the NECRON list - which, after all, is the whole point of combining units in the first place.

In this context (i.e. building a Necron list), comparisons to other units in other Codexes are irrelevant. Sure, they may not be as points efficient as genestealers or grey hunters, but when you can't choose those because they are not in the codex, its not relevant. In this case it is a trade off between wraiths, FO and something else (court disco).

Sure, Necrons can't take Genestealers and Grey Hunters, but Necron players will be facing off against these things occasionally. Flayed Ones ONLY ability is to threaten general infantry units. Genestealers and Grey Hunters are the type of unit that Flayed Ones must go after. Sadly, those units are far more efficient, have duality, and encompass similar battlefield roles as Flayed Ones, just in a different armies.

Wat? Apparently I wasn't clear about the role of generalship. The OP listed the advantages of the flayed ones which included the ability to DS without scatter, infiltrate and outflank. Now as a general, you can ignore these advantages and you can choose to send inferior units against superior ones if you wish. That's your call as a general. However, dissing the unit for losing is a bit harsh.

As a Necron general, why would you EVER want to assault genestealers, Termies, or specialist CC units with anything other than wraiths, a royal court disco or (maybe) Lychguard? I suppose if you wanted to tarpit them for a turn you could use some troops? Far more effective to stand back and blast them with Tesla, they'll fail eventually. However, taking out devastators, long fangs etc, tying up HQ units for the first couple of turns- well, that is a perfect use for FO.

JGrand wrote:
If a Necron player wants to compete with armies that are taking more efficient and hands down better units, they need to in turn stick with the better units in their codex. In this case, if I want close combat I take Wraiths and Scarabs. In my 2k Necron list I have 2 units of 6 allocated Wraiths at 245 points per unit and 7 Scarab bases at 105 points. Which means that around 600 points of my army is dedicated to close combat. Additionally, these units are fast and have the ability to preform multiple roles of the battlefield, something Flayed Ones cannot.

Would I take 15 Flayed Ones over 11 Immortals, or 5 Immortals in a Night Scythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Wraiths, Scarabs, or Tomb Blades? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Annihilation Barges, Spyders, or even a Doomscythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a CCB or adding Crypteks? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a Stalker? Absolutely not.

I can make an completely competitive Necron force from the above units and regularly do. I have never felt that I was lacking what the Flayed Ones could bring to the table. Not once. The reason is that even if I can use them as some sort of flanking strike, they lack the ability to threaten armor, and armor is everywhere. So, they reach my opponent and get a few glances if I'm lucky.

Fair enough. I agree, you can make a perfectly competitive list without them. Equally, depending on your play style, you could make a competitive list with them. With any list it comes down to how you play the list in the game. I totally disagree that you have to have the most points efficient units in the Codex in order to be competitive. What you do have to have is the most points efficient units to execute your strategy.

For example if you want the advantages of a D&D combo (which uses up a VeilTek, scatters) then there is a case for using Flayed ones instead. You don't need 20 to take out long fangs or devastators. So, you can save the veilteks for immortals, courts, etc or swap for more lanceteks. However, this is only valid if your strategy includes a plan to take out the opponents heavy non mech weapons while you have created darkness with your pulse. So, as I said earlier, they can be good depending on generalship, play style and situational/tactical use.

JGrand wrote:Flayed Ones are bad in comparison to similar units in other armies and commonly seen units in other armies. They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality. They aren't fearless, so if they lose combat, they are afraid. They aren't a top 3 close combat unit in their own codex. The best thing you can say about them is that they debatably the second best Elites choice in the Cron dex. That's like saying Raptors are the best fast attack choice for Chaos Space Marines. It doesn't make you good, just better than other bad things.

Agree. They have some failings compared to units in other armies. So are warriors. So's a ghost ark. So's a Scythe. But people still build lists with them because they have few choices and they know how to use them effectively. Why single out Flayed Ones as bad?

Therion wrote:
Wow. The guy explained himself in as simple terms as its humanly possible and yet you didn't get anything he said. We understand that you like playing with points inefficient units and bad armies but don't even try to claim that just because you can use garbage against garbage the other options wouldn't still be a lot better. If you want to make this a discussion about why we all should use garbage in our armies I think you should make a new thread. It'll no doubt be an interesting read.

Actually, I'd suggest that he didn't get what I said. People's opinions that FO are bad, built on the basis that they play a slightly modified wraithwing and don't see a need for DS, infiltrate or outflank, are exactly the issue here.
Does not playing FO make you a bad general? No.
Does not considering FO when you have a need for DS/Infiltrate/Outflank make you a bad general? Yep. Consider them and then choose not to use them, fine. But don't write them off just because they don't fit your playstyle or the interweb says they are bad.

They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality

This. Is. Just. Wrong.

15 Flayed Ones average 1.67, 5, or 10 glances against a vehicle depending on speed.

So they have a potential to inflict 10 glances.

10! So that's an average of 3 to 4 Damage/Immobilzed results. Enough to kill, or critically disable, most transports. (And likely kill the inhabitants if you can get it properly surrounded).

With an army filled to the brim with Gauss are you telling me you don't have the foresight to pre-stun a vehicle the turn before Flayed Ones get to it?

So, in their least nominal roll, if used competently, they can still kill 95% of the vehicles in the game.

So please, stop repeating this completely inaccurate meme.

Warriors are a troop choice, and the only one that can take a transport IIRC. Consequently people take them through lack of choice (like tactical squads).

Flayed ones are like assault squads. You have other options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality

This. Is. Just. Wrong.

15 Flayed Ones average 1.67, 5, or 10 glances against a vehicle depending on speed.

So they have a potential to inflict 10 glances.

10! So that's an average of 3 to 4 Damage/Immobilzed results. Enough to kill, or critically disable, most transports. (And likely kill the inhabitants if you can get it properly surrounded).

With an army filled to the brim with Gauss are you telling me you don't have the foresight to pre-stun a vehicle the turn before Flayed Ones get to it?

So, in their least nominal roll, if used competently, they can still kill 95% of the vehicles in the game.

So please, stop repeating this completely inaccurate meme.

If his transport is stationary then it's probably already dead. Tactical marines get krak grenades, which can actually penetrate rear armour 10, and yet you don't see people advocating that as a regular tactic.

Glancing hits are not something to "threaten" armour. They are an attack of last resort when the real weapons have failed.

I find glancing hits as effective a tactic as a shot by a "real" weapon. If the vehicle can't shoot and can't move - it's dead.

Particularly early in the game, when playing against mech armies who are "safe" in their vehicles, I'll quite happily try and glance them enough so that the people inside have to get out.

Blowing them up is nice, but really I just want them to stop moving and shooting.

This. Is. Just. Wrong.

15 Flayed Ones average 1.67, 5, or 10 glances against a vehicle depending on speed.

So they have a potential to inflict 10 glances.

10! So that's an average of 3 to 4 Damage/Immobilzed results. Enough to kill, or critically disable, most transports. (And likely kill the inhabitants if you can get it properly surrounded).

With an army filled to the brim with Gauss are you telling me you don't have the foresight to pre-stun a vehicle the turn before Flayed Ones get to it?

So, in their least nominal roll, if used competently, they can still kill 95% of the vehicles in the game.

So please, stop repeating this completely inaccurate meme.

Against vehicles that move 6" and if you can get everyone in combat, sure. Transports and fast vehicles are always going to be moving 12" or more, so you average less than 2 glances there. Pre Stunning does nothing btw. You need to have it immobilized to auto hit it. Also, Flayed Ones that are infiltrating are reaching enemy lines before you generally have a chance to stun. Additonally, Grey Knights are extremely prevalent. Stunning is meaningless. Crons are extremely prevalent. You can't even glance them. Finally, if you are hit by a Drednaught or walker, you lose.

I don't see much of a reason to debate this. Flayed Ones are not an efficient unit in a competitive setting. Then again, I seem to remember you arguing for just about every other Necron unit that people think are garbage, including the indefensible Praetorians. You have had ample opportunity to either provide a list that incorporates Flayed Ones, play on vassal against someone who challenged you to prove their use, or just go to a major event and make some battle reps. You can argue that I'm looking at Flayed Ones all wrong, but as the person going against both conventional theory and mathmatical examples, the burden of proof falls on you. Until you plan on doing the above, I'm not inclined to listen, especially when you want to claim that you can't compare Flayed Ones point for point against the different units that a. fulfill similar roles in other armies and b. do those roles and others far better.

If his transport is stationary then it's probably already dead. Tactical marines get krak grenades, which can actually penetrate rear armour 10, and yet you don't see people advocating that as a regular tactic.

Glancing hits are not something to "threaten" armour. They are an attack of last resort when the real weapons have failed.

First, not if it's stationary because of one unit of warriors glancing it. Then it's just stationary.

Tactical Marines, or any Space Marines, aren't in an army with several hundred Gauss Shots where creating the conditions necessary to be favorable are likely, so the comparison is dubious at best. That being said, 10 kraks will average about 3 Pens and a Glance, the net result will be about the same as 10 Glances (ie a severally disabled or dead vehicle).

And your last 2 statements are just false. I don't care if Stephen Hawking thinks that, its false, as the math clearly demonstrates.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JGrand wrote:Against vehicles that move 6" and if you can get everyone in combat, sure. Transports and fast vehicles are always going to be moving 12" or more, so you average less than 2 glances there. Pre Stunning does nothing btw. You need to have it immobilized to auto hit it. Also, Flayed Ones that are infiltrating are reaching enemy lines before you generally have a chance to stun.

If the Vehicle was stunned the previous turn, as I clearly stated already, the net result is the same, the vehicle didn't move this turn. Infiltrators take two turns to hit the enemy lines, so... stun the vehicles closeset to them turn one...and on turn two....(surely you can see where this is going right?)

Additonally, Grey Knights are extremely prevalent. Stunning is meaningless. Crons are extremely prevalent. You can't even glance them. Finally, if you are hit by a Drednaught or walker, you lose.

You are also going to be dealing with a lot less vehicles in both of those cases, so Flayed Ones will be in their least nominal roll less often. Every Dreadnought I've ever seen GKs run I would GLADLY send my Flayed Ones against. The fact that you can's see the obvious tactical reason for doing so speaks volumes.

I don't see much of a reason to debate this. Flayed Ones are not an efficient unit in a competitive setting. Then again, I seem to remember you arguing for just about every other Necron unit that people think are garbage, including the indefensible Praetorians.

Yeah, you're right, I'm not a sheep. I use both units, to this day, with regular effectiveness (as they both synergize particularly well with a Res Orbed DLord). (And funny you should mention the TPs, FOs are bad because they "can't threaten Vehicles" however TPs, which are point for point better against vehicles then Wraiths, are still bad because...? Constantly moving them goal posts...)

You have had ample opportunity to either provide a list that incorporates Flayed Ones, play on vassal against someone who challenged you to prove their use, or just go to a major event and make some battle reps.

What does that have to do with the validity of the argument, and we both know that even if I did you would remain skeptical. Large chunks of the netlisters still poopoo Angry Earth after it won a major tournament. The fact is, even if I wrote up a Battle Rep of every game I've used them in and demonstrated how they were a key player in the game you would respond that my opponents were bad, or I had lucky dice, or the terain was perfect for me and not them...etc

You can argue that I'm looking at Flayed Ones all wrong, but as the person going against both conventional theory and mathmatical examples, the burden of proof falls on you.

Mathmatical Examples eh? Most mathematical examples have clearly demonstrated that it largely comes down to who gets the charge. This is by and large the rule for most troop based CC units in the game. There are hard CC counters for sure, but the units with hard CC counters have hard CC counters of their own. This proves absolutely nothing. The critical question is can they be effective against most of the units they encounter. Considering the preponderance of Shoot First units in the game I would say this is obiviously a yes.

Until you plan on doing the above, I'm not inclined to listen, especially when you want to claim that you can't compare Flayed Ones point for point against the different units that a. fulfill similar roles in other armies and b. do those roles and others far better.

That's certainly your prerogrative. You're not my target audience. You always carbon copy the loudest prevalent meme currently available on the interwebs. The fact that you think I must show that they "do those roles and others far better" clearly demonstrates this. Your burden of proof for Flayed Ones is irrationally high. Why must they do anything far better then something that is not even in their respective Codex? They fill the same roll as Orc Commandos, Genestealers, Mandrakes, etc. Not shockingly a roll that many netlister don't even consider a viable roll in the first place. Of that list I would posit only the Genestealers are better at that roll, however not completely, as FOs are significantly more durable, and have access to 4 or 5 turns of Night Fighting (compounding the durability chasm).

JGrand wrote:
I don't see much of a reason to debate this. Flayed Ones are not an efficient unit in a competitive setting.

I see. Not efficient. So, as the most efficient unit is wraiths (as an example), everyone who doesn't have a wraithwing is being inefficient? Surely, you have to agree that some army lists and strategies don't use purely what the interweb sees as the most efficient? Or are these "inefficient" units only included because there are spare points to use up?

I, for one, am certainly not trying to argue that FO are the best unit in the codex. The point I'm trying to make is that the issue of efficiency you keep raising seems to overlook the synergy of a unit taken as a whole with the rest of the list and the initial strategy of how you are going to play it. As I said earlier, imho, you have to take units which have the best efficiency within the list to execute the strategy you have - these aren't always going to be the most "efficient" units on a standalone basis.

JGrand wrote:You can argue that I'm looking at Flayed Ones all wrong, but as the person going against both conventional theory and mathmatical examples, the burden of proof falls on you. Until you plan on doing the above, I'm not inclined to listen, especially when you want to claim that you can't compare Flayed Ones point for point against the different units that a. fulfill similar roles in other armies and b. do those roles and others far better.

Everyone uses different mechanisms to build their lists and in the way they play each game. If you want to exclude one of the few units that have infiltrate/outflank/DS (possibly with no scatter) because it can't take on a unit of Genestealers/grey hunters/<insert excellent CC unit> - cool.

How do your wraiths stack up though? Say against an equivalent points unit of Genestealers? Particularly if you give the genestealers the charge? (I haven't done the mathhammer here, cos I don't think anyone is going to drop wraiths cos they can't beat an equivalent points of genestealers - but that's my point ).

From your list above, you use a wraith wing - you don't need FO, either tactically or to meet CC requirements. Lots of people don't play wraithwing - let those generals decide whether FO are strategy efficient for themselves, without using specific comparisons which won't hold up if they aren't playing Nids/SW.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd - have to type faster next time

I see. Not efficient. So, as the most efficient unit is wraiths (as an example), everyone who doesn't have a wraithwing is being inefficient? Surely, you have to agree that some army lists and strategies don't use purely what the interweb sees as the most efficient? Or are these "inefficient" units only included because there are spare points to use up?

You are twisting what I said. I never claimed Wraithwing was the only efficient build. If you want to reference a previous post, I listed a large number of things I would take in each section over Flayed Ones. But sure, I'll bite. If you are taking a close combat unit, have a Fast Attack slot open, and take Flayed Ones instead of Wraiths, you are making a mistake.

I, for one, am certainly not trying to argue that FO are the best unit in the codex. The point I'm trying to make is that the issue of efficiency you keep raising seems to overlook the synergy of a unit taken as a whole with the rest of the list and the initial strategy of how you are going to play it. As I said earlier, imho, you have to take units which have the best efficiency within the list to execute the strategy you have - these aren't always going to be the most "efficient" units on a standalone basis.

I still am waiting on a list that incorporates Flayed Ones in a synergistic and efficient way. Bat reps maybe? The Vassal challenge? Again, if the OP or anyone here wants to prove something against conventional thinking, they should probably have something to go off of.

Everyone uses different mechanisms to build their lists and in the way they play each game. If you want to exclude one of the few units that have infiltrate/outflank/DS (possibly with no scatter) because it can't take on a unit of Genestealers/grey hunters/<insert excellent CC unit> - cool.

How do your wraiths stack up though? Say against an equivalent points unit of Genestealers? Particularly if you give the genestealers the charge? (I haven't done the mathhammer here, cos I don't think anyone is going to drop wraiths cos they can't beat an equivalent points of genestealers - but that's my point ).

6 Wraiths, 3 with whip coils, 1 with particle caster are 245 points. 14 Genestealers with toxin sacs are 238 points. If you want, you can give Stealers the charge. Still, the Wraiths ignore terrain and move faster, and have nades (essentially), so the Stealer charge is less likely, but whatever. Let's say that the Nid player somehow only has 3 Stealers whipped. So, 11 go first.

33 attacks, 22 hits, 11 initial wounds, add another 6 for re-rolls. Wraiths take 5-6 wounds. Let's say for the sake of arguement, 4 get to attack back.
12 attacks, 6 hits, 1 rend, 4 wounds. Genestealers lose 2-3 to armor saves.
Additional whipped Stealers add another 4-5 wounds. Another wound or 2 on Wraiths.

So about 6-8 wounds on the Wraiths and 3-4 wounds on the Genestealers in an extremely lopsided situation for the Nids. Not too bad considering Flayed Ones get wiped.

From your list above, you use a wraith wing - you don't need FO, either tactically or to meet CC requirements. Lots of people don't play wraithwing - let those generals decide whether FO are strategy efficient for themselves, without using specific comparisons which won't hold up if they aren't playing Nids/SW.

Again, if you have Fast Attack slots open to take Wraiths and you take Flayed Ones instead, you are making a mistake. Wraiths are better in almost every way.

i like people who think out side of the net list and are creative its the only way new great list and tactics are created.


personally i dont play necrons but if i did you make flayed ones sound pretty sweet to me and they look cool to boot!

Again, if you have Fast Attack slots open to take Wraiths and you take Flayed Ones instead, you are making a mistake.

I will agree this is generally true.

Wraiths are better in almost every way.

Except against TH/SS termies, or Halberd GKs...which just happen to be two of the most common CC units in the game in the current meta.

Or durability against every shooting weapon in the game except AP 4 or better templates...

Also, Wraiths do not Infiltrate/Outflank or pinpoint DS. So...every one of the ways in which such tactical flexibility are viable...

Also, there are times when having a larger physical displacement is advantageous, like Bubble Wrapping for Instance.

Anyway, certainly not saying they are overall better then Wraiths, just pointing out the needless and factually incorrect hyperbole of your statement.

Edit for clarity, like 15 times but I'll get it all out there eventually .

Except against TH/SS termies, or Halberd GKs...which just happen to be two of the most common CC units in the game in the current meta.

So getting a 66% chance of dying versus just taking wounds is worse how?

Or durability against every shooting weapon in the game except AP 4 or better templates...

Again, getting 17% better saves that they always get to take versus needing to hug cover is worse how? Not to mention how much Flayed Ones crumble to Chimeras.

Also, Wraiths do not Infiltrate/Outflank or pinpoint DS. So...every one of the ways in which such tactical flexibility are viable...

You don't pinpoint deepstrike. Not without Imotekh anyway, and even then, the result is random. Wraiths also generally reach CC by turn 2.

Also, there are times when having a larger physical displacement is advantageous, like Bubble Wrapping for Instance.

Fair enough. Then again, Wraiths can give cover to Necron vehicles. There are advantages to both.

Anyway, certainly not saying they are overall better then Wraiths, just pointing out the needless and factually incorrect hyperbole of your statement.

Edit for clarity, like 15 times but I'll get it all out there eventually .

So basically, Flayed Ones have more wounds and can Infiltrate or Deepsrike, and bubblewrap? My apologies for leaving out these three critical advantages.

JGrand wrote:

I see. Not efficient. So, as the most efficient unit is wraiths (as an example), everyone who doesn't have a wraithwing is being inefficient? Surely, you have to agree that some army lists and strategies don't use purely what the interweb sees as the most efficient? Or are these "inefficient" units only included because there are spare points to use up?

You are twisting what I said. I never claimed Wraithwing was the only efficient build. If you want to reference a previous post, I listed a large number of things I would take in each section over Flayed Ones. But sure, I'll bite. If you are taking a close combat unit, have a Fast Attack slot open, and take Flayed Ones instead of Wraiths, you are making a mistake.

I wasn't suggesting that you were suggesting that wraith wing were the only efficient build. I was trying to show that individual preferences of what is the most efficient unit could lead to a conclusion that any list other than spamming <insert your "most efficient unit"> was "inefficient". Wraiths was a poor choice of example, should have used scarabs.

Also, I agree that for equivalent points if you have a FA slot open, you should generally take wraiths.

JGrand wrote:

I, for one, am certainly not trying to argue that FO are the best unit in the codex. The point I'm trying to make is that the issue of efficiency you keep raising seems to overlook the synergy of a unit taken as a whole with the rest of the list and the initial strategy of how you are going to play it. As I said earlier, imho, you have to take units which have the best efficiency within the list to execute the strategy you have - these aren't always going to be the most "efficient" units on a standalone basis.

I still am waiting on a list that incorporates Flayed Ones in a synergistic and efficient way. Bat reps maybe? The Vassal challenge? Again, if the OP or anyone here wants to prove something against conventional thinking, they should probably have something to go off of.

It isn't just a list, it's the tactics that go with it. As has been said, FO need more care and thought to use effectively, so a list by itself isn't going to be conclusive is it? I'll have a shot at producing a list though, maybe tonight.

JGrand wrote:So getting a 66% chance of dying versus just taking wounds is worse how?

66% chance of dying? Not sure where you are getting this, but do the math, as long as the FOs pass the first leadership test, which will be on average an 8 or under (70% chance of success) they will win the combat with relative ease. Its a much tighter combat for the Wraiths, with either side winning just barely.

Edit: I always forget about this but, Terminator armor...sweeping advance...can't do it right? Really any CC unit that can't sweeping advance removes the FOs number one Achilles heel.

Edit numero dose: The above also assumes the Terms get the charge. If the FOs get the charge it really isn't close.

Again, getting 17% better saves that they always get to take versus needing to hug cover is worse how? Not to mention how much Flayed Ones crumble to Chimeras.

The difference between a 3++ and a 4+ with RP is...well basically their isn't one, provided of course their is cover. or the weapon is AP 5 or worse, but like...you know...5th edition...cover....almost always. Also, quite a few of the weapons that go through the FOs armor also insta kill the Wraiths...which pushes the math back in the FOs favor. However you are right, despite the FOs superior point for point durability, the Wraiths not having to hug cover certainly has its advantages.

You don't pinpoint deepstrike. Not without Imotekh anyway, and even then, the result is random. Wraiths also generally reach CC by turn 2.

The way most people clump, "which unit has the BSS" is generally irrelevant. But yes, Imo certainly has huge synergistic elements with FOs. I certainly don't think I need to argue taking Imo for his own sake.

Fair enough. Then again, Wraiths can give cover to Necron vehicles. There are advantages to both.

Completely agree. Which is why having both tools available is better then homogenization.

The real problem with FO's is that they really dont threaten much in CC. You can charge 6 Long Fangs and you won't do much damage. You won't do enough damage to make it worth trading your ~200 point unit for maybe 50-100 pts worth of Fangs. If I am playing Wolves, I'll gladly have you charge some Long Fangs so that I can in turn counter charge the FO's and take them out. Outflanking unit's oughtta be able to do real damage when they come in and comparable units such as Wolf Scouts, outflanking GK units and Genestealers are BIG threats. They threaten tank lines and can easily wipe out MSU infantry squads. FO's cannot easily do either. To really have a shot at this they have to invest very high amounts of points.

You (OP) also spoke of glancing vehicles before charging them with FO's. Last I checked the average range of Necron Gauss is 12" rapid fire. This means by the time the FO's arrive there is a very good chance you aren't even in Gauss range. Most of the Cron units can't move and shoot at 24" (unless you are taking a Phaeron, which means you've foregone the CCB lord, another troublesome thing in its own right). I find the chances of you actually stunning something with Gauss to "effectively" charge is quite low.

Let's look at the usefulness of FO's vs some top codexes.

VS GK, The FO's don't want to infiltrate generally, it'll overextend them and make them an easy target from the very get-go. Thing's like incinerators can make very, very quick work of them and they are readily available to almost all GK units. If you hug cover (which you'll need to do due to AP4 from Psy-weaponry) then you slow down your FO's with no way to counteract this slowed movement (exactly why fleet and move through cover are important for dedicated CC). The bigger issue here is that your "effective" glances have almost no effect (lack of psychic defense puts you at the mercy of the opposing player failing LD10 tests). Not to mention common GK units eat the FO's alive in combat. Purifiers vs FO's is an awful match-up for FO's. Crowe DESTROYS Flayed Ones. Coteaz will allow his unit to freely shoot them (shouldn't do much damage of course, but still not a good thing). If the FO's outflank and get too close it is entirely too easy for a GK player to use their 145 pt Dreadnought to tie up your 200 pt unit and later dedicate some CC to bail out the Dread. If DCA or Paladins are present the FO's become even more useless... I'd say the FO's have little to no use against GK's due to the lack of effective targets in the backfield and a fear of common GK assault units.

VS Guard. This one is real, real funny. As JGrand pointed out, Chimeras DESTROY FO's. The FO's can come in, maybe glance a vehicle to death and then get tankshocked into a template friendly formation and roasted. Manticore's also have quite a bit of fun vs them. Not to mention Guard also have reserve manipulation to make your FO's slightly less useful. If you start the FO's in your own deployment they will never get any use, so you have to bring them close, which in turn puts you in flamer territory. Seems like a very big lose-lose situation. It is also incredibly easy for Guard to screen their important vehicles, allow their screen to be overkilled by your unit and then roast you for little to no loss.

VS SW. The biggest use here could be charging Fangs. Though this is FAR from a guarantee since the FO's can only come off the side edges. So a more centralized approach could effectively neutralize them as a threat to the Fangs. If the FO's do manage to get into combat they are far from world-beaters, on average 15 FO's will kill something around ~4 Long Fangs. In return the SW's player can easily set-up a countercharge to break the FO's and bail-out the remaining Fangs. I am not sure I would be very happy about a ~200 pt CC unit failing to thoroughly wipe out a devastator squad. That screams inefficiency to me. All this also assumes the FO's get their preferred side of the board. With outflank there is always a fair chance that the unit ends up in no-man's land. The fact that the FO's struggle to beat basic SW's troops also makes this a fairly unfavorable match-up.

VS Crons. This is the real LOL matchup and its an awfully bad army to have such a bad match-up against given that the Crons have shown to be extremely popular. If you infiltrate them they are in Wraith/Scarab range. If you outflank them you may be able to wipe cheap warrior squads but that is about all (even this shouldn't be too easy because the Cron player can just centralize their units and spread them out after you arrive), you'll probably STILL be in Wraith range as well. The FO's can't threaten the common Cron vehicles which means they have no effective duality.

VS BA. This match-up isn't great because the FO's have no way of negative FNP meaning they are generally going to be fighting a 3+/4+ save. The "duality" is going to be far worse in this matchup due to the Fast vehicles as well. Jumper angels will easily get the FO's into combat and should generally get the charge. Mephiston would roll a squad of Flayed Ones very, very easily by himself. I literally see no use for them in this match-up. The basic troops will tarpit them forever. The tanks will experience minor glancing. Neither sounds like a particularly good function.

VS DE. Wyches beat up on FO's. They are faster and have a much, much bigger threat radius (if in a Raider they have up to a 26.5" threat range). If they have FNP you will be fighting a 4+/4+ save. Once again the "duality" isn't very effective here. The average DE vehicle moves 12" consistently and therefore will require you to hit on 6s and GLANCE on 6s. If you are hugging cover you should rarely be getting all of your FO's into a vehicle so expecting any significant damage against fast vehicles seems to be a long-shot.

So against top armies I see the FO's having some minor uses against Wolves and that is just about it. Some of the codexes I didn't mention should also have a fair chance at beating up on them (Tyranids come to mind, as do Mechdar and Footdar builds).

Against the top codexes the FO's will have to face units that can beat them without too much effort. Good generals won't sit there and allocate weak CC infantry units at your FO's and the FO's aren't quite fast enough to pick and choose their battles at their own leisure. So you have to take into account the sorts things that FO's will be fighting. The top codexes have efficient and popular units that can easily deal with a unit like FO's. Purifiers, Wraiths, Grey Hunters, FNP ASM, Wyches, Chimeras, etc. The whole point of dedicated CC units is generally to shred infantry units. Once again the FO's fail at this task while similar units excel. 15 FO's outflanking should not make a marine player nervous, it certainly doesn't make ME nervous. 15 outflanking Genestealers DEFINITELY makes me nervous because they will both threaten tanks and easily wipe out my marine squads. Why fill your list with something that YOU don't need. If you want disruptive CC units that are also durable, THEY ARE AVAILABLE. Wraiths fulfill, literally, the same exact function. They may not outflank or infiltrate but they are so fast and mobile that you can use them in the same exact matter and they will be far, far better at their job. If you decide to take Wraiths and FOs you've used them in a redundant matter because Wraiths require a substantial points investment that eats into your ability to actually open up metal boxes. If you eschew Wraiths then it should be assumed that you are not taking a CC based army at which point the FO's shouldn't be used anyway because it would be more important to emphasize your shooting by building around redundant firepower. If you decide to spam vehicles the Stalker is a much better choice since it adds AV saturation. If there is a shooting Cron army that effectively utilizes FO's i'd like to see it.

Once again. FO's may be a fun unit but I don't think you can categorize them as competitive. Just because a good general can make some use of them does not make them efficient or competitive. They are a handicap for anyone who takes them, in any list you build for them. If you prefer to challenge yourself that is fine and dandy but don't act like they are something that they are not. There is a reason why people perceive them to be poor. It is immediately recognizable when you read the Cron codex that FO's are an all-around poor choice. Their stats DO NOT resemble a dedicated CC unit yet that is their designed purpose.

How do flayed ones do against the other armies? Since I rarely see them all I can do is mathammer for them, and against things like Boyz and Genestealers it just doesn't look good for them.

LValx wrote:The real problem with FO's is that they really dont threaten much in CC. You can charge 6 Long Fangs and you won't do much damage. You won't do enough damage to make it worth trading your ~200 point unit for maybe 50-100 pts worth of Fangs. If I am playing Wolves, I'll gladly have you charge some Long Fangs so that I can in turn counter charge the FO's and take them out. Outflanking unit's oughtta be able to do real damage when they come in and comparable units such as Wolf Scouts, outflanking GK units and Genestealers are BIG threats. They threaten tank lines and can easily wipe out MSU infantry squads. FO's cannot easily do either. To really have a shot at this they have to invest very high amounts of points.

So the FO's are going to charge the Long Fangs, kill 4 (it's closer to 5...but I'll run with 4 for funsies), and then die instantly to the CC unit that charges them? They are not going to kill anything else? Is that what your saying. After the first turn, they are just gonna toggle attacks to off and give up? And what are they getting counter charged by? And why isn't that unit dealing with the Wraiths/Scarabs/Tomb Spyders/DLord with Triarch Praetorians (just to get an idea of my list)?

And one more thing, the fact they don't annihilate things in one round of CC is a good thing. It is how CC units should be designed. For obvious reasons.

Your entire post is "what if the Flayed Ones were in the worst possible position imaginable, how good would they be then?" Like GKs and incinerators...cause like, everybody goes for those over the Psycannons right? Or Purifiers, cause I didn't bring any Tomb Spyders with Gloom Prisms right? Or Dark Eldar, cause like the entire rest of my army isn't going to be able to take down those paper air planes so that FOs can make quick death of the squishy warriors/trueborn right (or I could get counter charged from the wyches...in which case both of us our going to throw crap at each other for the rest of the game because its tar pit versus tar pit)? Same against guard, I'm just gonna charge headlong into their vehicles and not wait until the squishy guard are footslogging around right? Or against Necrons, so MY Wraiths and scarabs are just gonna sit by and spectate while HIS Wraiths and Scarabs chomp on my Flayed Ones? Also, FOs will easily beat scarabs in CC, even if scarabs get the charge...so again, you are assuming something that isn't backed up by reality. AND, outside of Wraiths, I am more then happy sending them against EVERY OTHER NONE VEHICLE UNIT IN THE NECRON CODEX. Against DA, yes, if I'm a complete slow and don't kill the priests and let the FOs operate on an island without Wraith or Scarab support their ASM can prove problematic.



99% of the time Flayed Ones are going to be placed after the enemy deploys...so you look at there deployment...and you access your brain.

Me: "Hey brain, where can I place the Flayed Ones so they have a good chance of tying up/eliminating something that is threatening to the rest of my list"

Either:

A.) Brain: tabulation...tabulation "Here"

or

B.) Brain: "Not good matchups currently, with X on the board, hold them in reserve and DS them so that by the time they arrive X may be eliminated."

Me: "Well played brain, wish I had though of that."

Meanwhile

The opponent is having to deploy with my 15 Flayed Oens in mind. Will he clump together? Will he refuse flank? Will he completely ignore them?
I know how to take advantage of all of the above...much better then he does...because no-one plays Flayed Ones .



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kain wrote:How do flayed ones do against the other armies? Since I rarely see them all I can do is mathammer for them, and against things like Boyz and Genestealers it just doesn't look good for them.

The math was laid out earlier for the boys but it comes down to whoever gets the charge wins. Against GS the GS take some casualties but win with the charge, the FOs win, by a very small margin, if they get the charge.

But all of these examples are in a silly vacuum that ignores the FOs primary advantage versus these units, resiliency and multiple turns of Night Fighting. Boyz and GS die in droves to bolter fire...not a problem for the FOs, so more FOs should generally reach CC in the first place.

Kain wrote:20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord.

So you are comparing a 260 point units (Flayed Ones) with a 486 point unit (Genestealers)?

I am sure the end result is a surprise to all of us.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kain wrote:20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord.

So you are comparing a 260 point units (Flayed Ones) with a 486 point unit (Genestealers)?

I am sure the end result is a surprise to all of us.

I didn't use the broodlord in my calculations, as it would be overkill. And also just toxin sacs and scything talons are sufficient enough, heck naked genestealers would still crush flayed ones in combat.

Rightt... so your list includes:
Wraiths
Praetorians
Dlord
Flayed Ones
Scarabs
Spyders

How exactly do you deal with vehicles? That right there is roughly ~1k invested in CC. Relying on CC to open transports is a bad idea. Lets see your wonderful list because I am quite sure that you've built a completely imbalanced list. Who needs five CC units, at least 2 of which are awful? I'll assume you take Imotekh in this list since you keep talking about him. So Imotekh and a Crono-tek, along with minimum warriors will put you at ~1500, assuming you take ~3 Spyders, 8-10 Scarabs, 6 Wraiths, 5 Praetorians, 1 Dlord with resorb and scythe and a big block of FO's. With a list like this you have almost no way to peel open transports outside of Imotekh (who can't be relied on since he is completely random). From what little I can make of your list it is truly awful. If you think Praetorians are honestly worth taking then you are probably beyond helping because that unit is about as bad as they come. So 1500 Points has bought you:
~35 models with no shooting outside of Imotekh's ability. By taking both Imotekh and a Dlord you are eschewing arguably the best unit in the entire codex (CCB lord). Good job. You've taken out one of the few reliable 'Cron anti-tank sources. I doubt you are fitting in too many lances at their cost. You are limited to either 1-2 Annihilation Barges (which in this case would hardly be a good fit since you seem to be mech-phobic) or an Ark or Scythe, though on your budget these should be a little too steep in cost.

You've completely ignored the best synergy available in the entire Cron codex which is AV13 and Wraiths en masse. This is a great strategy because the same sort of firepower that easily kills Wraiths (Str8+) is needed to penetrate and destroy those pesky Barges. Your list gives an obvious target for Str 8 whilst also providing excellent targets for lower strength weaponry.

Incinerators are definitely a rarity, ill give you that one. How is Gloom Prism magically reaching across the board to your infiltrated flayed ones or outflanking flayed ones? Are you going to string them out? Well then you miss out on attacks and have a larger chance of them being beaten and swept.

I don't see you dealing with 12+ fast vehicles too easily with a list that is fairly reliant on CC to open up vehicles. It isn't difficult to screen your vehicles with other vehicles/infantry.

None of these scenarios are doomsday scenarios. If you wanted "worst case possible" situations I would have listed better things like TWC charging, DCA charging, etc. Instead I listed VERY COMMON units that can deal with the FOs with either minimal effort, or a small bit of inconvenience. GH's, Purifiers, Crowe, Chimeras, Wyches, FNP ASMs, Manticores... None of these units are particularly rare to see. They are very, very common units and they all fare well against the FOs.

What in the GK codex are you really threatening with FO's? How are you peeling open AV12? How are you opening mass AV11? I see little to no potential to take much anti tank if you are wasting premier points on inefficient CC.

I'd agree that not annihilating things in CC is a good thing, if your unit can actually threaten others in CC to begin with. Having your FO's stuck in combat with some Long Fangs and then having them counter-charged by a larger squad of GH's is not a good situation for you to be in. At this point you've been weakened ever so slightly, but bigger is the fact that you will have dropped back down to your base attack of 3. At this point the GH's should really be able to put quite a hurting on you. And once again, this all assumes that the wolf player didnt deny you the ability to get the FO's into CC. This isn't all that difficult to do given that you can deploy centrally to avoid outflanking. Infiltration is also not terribly difficult to stop since the majority of SWs players take Rune Priests and they can easily grab a useful Chooser of the Slain.

GK can grab Servo Skulls to noodle with your infiltrating, they can also Warp Quake your deep strike. Guard want your FO's to be close to their armored lines. And let's get real, against Guard the FO's will overkill just about any unit they touch and then be exposed to one of the 8-12 heavy flamers they like to tote around on Chimera hulls.

You are right about the Scarab fight, I completely forgot about them having the same initiative. The problem with a lot of the better Cron lists is that they are basically vehicle spam backed by troops and Wraiths. So what in that list are the FO's really going to engage?

No one plays Flayed Ones because they are bad. And that is a very nice way to put it.

As stated by myself and others. If you want to prove something go ahead and play it out. I'd love to do that. Very, very, very badly. Unlike you I don't intend to simply hide behind my keyboard and spout off nonsense. I would be very happy to have a match and put my money where my mouth is by demonstrating just how awful a sub-par, CC-based list is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since you are so steadfast in your admiration of FOs and their ability to be useful i'd say it is safe to assume that you playtest them frequently. Take some of that time out of your regular playtesting, download Vassal for FREE, get the 40k module and let's have a game. You have no reason to not be able to. It is a free program, it runs on Mac OSX as well as Windows and is fairly easy to use. We have debated this enough and can solve this a little easier by putting them to a legitimate test and seeing what their usefulness actually is. Hell, we can do a best of 3, best of 5 in order to get a larger sample sizing. I can use various codexes to demonstrate their uselessness against different common builds.

LOL.

I don't even think we are speaking the same language anymore. If you don't think Wraith/TPs/DLords/Scarabs + Imo and a healthy dose of Gauss shooting can open up vehicles then you simply haven't ever tried. How do you the Wraith Wings and Scarab Farms open vehicles...by spitting on them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Since you are so steadfast in your admiration of FOs and their ability to be useful i'd say it is safe to assume that you playtest them frequently. Take some of that time out of your regular playtesting, download Vassal for FREE, get the 40k module and let's have a game. You have no reason to not be able to. It is a free program, it runs on Mac OSX as well as Windows and is fairly easy to use. We have debated this enough and can solve this a little easier by putting them to a legitimate test and seeing what their usefulness actually is. Hell, we can do a best of 3, best of 5 in order to get a larger sample sizing. I can use various codexes to demonstrate their uselessness against different common builds.

If have the opportunity to take you up on this I promise I will. Newborn at home and being at work...at work have placed strong limitations on my playing time, and the fact that I've never used Vassal and am completely un accustomed to it's idiosyncrasies will play in your favor regardless, but none the less I'll see if we can do it some time before 6th comes out. I think you'll be surprised by the results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kain wrote:
I didn't use the broodlord in my calculations, as it would be overkill. And also just toxin sacs and scything talons are sufficient enough, heck naked genestealers would still crush flayed ones in combat.

...if they get the charge...

Kain wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kain wrote:20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord.

So you are comparing a 260 point units (Flayed Ones) with a 486 point unit (Genestealers)?

I am sure the end result is a surprise to all of us.

I didn't use the broodlord in my calculations, as it would be overkill. And also just toxin sacs and scything talons are sufficient enough, heck naked genestealers would still crush flayed ones in combat.

1. That is called "moving the goal posts". You mention ALL these things AND the Broodlord, and that is used to enhance your argument. Not cricket, my good man.

2. You are still comparing a 380 point unit to a 260 one.

Realistically you have to give Genestealers the charge. Fleet, MtC and infiltrate will do that.

I have to say I have been following this thread with interest. I think Shadar has brought up some interesting points but ultimately Flayed Ones are not competitive.

Lvalx made some very good points earlier on this page. Pit FO's against some of the most common (and competitive) enemies on the table and you see them struggle. Genestealers, Purifiers, Guard Heavy Flamers and Wyches.

FO's are not a dedicated CC unit (though lack of ranged weapons can make this hard to see). They are a disruptive unit and a mediocre one at that. No fleet means that anything that can move 12" or more can simply outrun them. BA, Crons and DE would run rings around them. The static units you would like them to go after (like Long Fangs or Lootaz) are, if run by a competent general, going to hidden behind some sort of screen and hard to get at. Deepstrike leaves them open to a round of firing before they engage anything and if your opponent simply backs away you are looking at more rounds of fire.

The biggest issue with them IMO is that the Necron codex has a plethora of options to play with...none of which require disruption. You can play the long ranged game, you can go full cc, you can bring an AV13 wall. With each of these I think the points are better spent supporting these main elements rather than incorporating something off base. There really is no need to put points (and a lot of points at that) into a massive shambling horde of FO's. They are slow, they fulfill no dedicated role and don't score (just adding that since if they did score you would probably see them played a lot more).

There probably are lists out there that can make use of FO's, but I would bet that they are used in smaller numbers. Kind of like Lootaz. Smaller squad sizes keeps them alive longer. Still not sure they would accomplish much, but I can see them being incorporated into the right kind of list.

Therion wrote:

I suppose next you are going to tell me wraith lords are crap, as are tyranids and monoliths. What you are forgetting is that not everything is numbers on paper, The way you play and use them is what really determines their worth. I could see myself playing a list with them, some people could not and that is fine. I regularly won with a tyranids warrior based list I think monoliths are good as long as you remember they are different than they used to be. Wraithlords were in the "gakky" footdar list

Wow. The guy explained himself in as simple terms as its humanly possible and yet you didn't get anything he said. We understand that you like playing with points inefficient units and bad armies but don't even try to claim that just because you can use garbage against garbage the other options wouldn't still be a lot better. If you want to make this a discussion about why we all should use garbage in our armies I think you should make a new thread. It'll no doubt be an interesting read.

Interesting so you counter my argument saying that these so called "points inefficient units" are garbage and that I make gakky lists? I never said they were the best, my friends and I however like to actually try units on the table to see if we can make them work before jumping on bandwagon and saying they are an awful army.

When did I say I thought they were garbage? That is your view and you are trying to super impose it on what I said.

Still let me break it down:

Points efficiency is only as good as how well it works for the general who uses it. Now if you want to continue in your automaton responses and stances on units, feel free. However this thread was meant to focus on how we could use a unit considered subpar effectively. I find it interesting how many of the most recent reports I see making the headlines are unconventional non-net lists. Now that may be a minority, representing the increased attention these types of lists get, still it makes it a possibility. So since your decision is already made what are you even doing in this thread since you have nothing constructive to contribute?

Kain wrote:How do flayed ones do against the other armies? Since I rarely see them all I can do is mathammer for them, and against things like Boyz and Genestealers it just doesn't look good for them.

Out of interest, how many boyz? Shootas or Sluggas? Who got the charge?

Because 30 boyz, not all of them are going to get into combat during that first round.

Doing the mathhammer - 15 flayed ones assault a unit of 30 boyz. 20 boyz get into combat via reaction. Result - 2nd round of assault win, 2/3rds of the flayed ones left.

Somehow manage to get all 30 in (I doubt it, since it's extremely rare I get even 20 slugga boyz into combat)? Sluggas still lose, with just above a 3rd of the flayed ones remaining.

Both of these included that nob with the Powerklaw, by the way

One must remember that when charged, Orks only hit at str3. Combine that with 4+ saves, leadership 10, reanimation protocols, plus fearless wounds the Orks will suffer, it's not in their favour at all.

If the Orks charge? If 20-30 get in, that's the Flayed ones done with - but 20-30 Slugga boyz decimate everything that's t4 and lower when they charge.

THAT SAID, if flayed ones are charged by trukk boys (12 sluggas with a PK nob), and pass that first leadership test (since they will lose that first round of combat), they will undoubtedly win with likely more than half left standing.

Scarab farm lists build to critical mass, i.e., 8-9 spyders and wait till turn 3 giving ~30 scarabs. This is good but, imo, not great at opening boxes. Simply too easy to screen vehicles. I speak from experience as ive played against them frequently.
Most cron players use ccbs/anni barges and lances to open mech. Jgrand does this and I can tell you after facing crons many, many times that the ccb is the most efficient vehicle killer in that codex.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kain wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kain wrote:20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord.

So you are comparing a 260 point units (Flayed Ones) with a 486 point unit (Genestealers)?

I am sure the end result is a surprise to all of us.

I didn't use the broodlord in my calculations, as it would be overkill. And also just toxin sacs and scything talons are sufficient enough, heck naked genestealers would still crush flayed ones in combat.

1. That is called "moving the goal posts". You mention ALL these things AND the Broodlord, and that is used to enhance your argument. Not cricket, my good man.

2. You are still comparing a 380 point unit to a 260 one.

When I mentioned the broodlord, I'm saying that it was something the Genestealers could take, notice how it was not once mentioned in the actual calculations.

Genestealers cost 14 points, toxin sacs add two points, scything talons add two points, that's 360 points, your math is off. For a hundred points more I can have a unit that is vastly more versatile, much faster, synergizes better with the rest of the army, and doesn't overly compete with better options in it's slots. The Flayed one competes with the Lychguards and Stalkers, who are both probably better options most of the time, and heck, depending on the enemy; Deathmarks are a better choice.

Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Ah, his math would still be off, and even then naked genestealers can more or less clear flayed ones off the table when they get the charge, and they will.

66% chance of dying? Not sure where you are getting this, but do the math, as long as the FOs pass the first leadership test, which will be on average an 8 or under (70% chance of success) they will win the combat with relative ease. Its a much tighter combat for the Wraiths, with either side winning just barely.

Meant to say 66% chance of saving aka the 3++. Flayed Ones get no save versus power weapons/fists.

Edit: I always forget about this but, Terminator armor...sweeping advance...can't do it right? Really any CC unit that can't sweeping advance removes the FOs number one Achilles heel.

Edit numero dose: The above also assumes the Terms get the charge. If the FOs get the charge it really isn't close.

SS TH Termies almost always have the Land Raider, so I'd assume Flayed Ones won't likely be charging in real games. But at least they can glance it...oh....

The difference between a 3++ and a 4+ with RP is...well basically their isn't one, provided of course their is cover. or the weapon is AP 5 or worse, but like...you know...5th edition...cover....almost always. Also, quite a few of the weapons that go through the FOs armor also insta kill the Wraiths...which pushes the math back in the FOs favor. However you are right, despite the FOs superior point for point durability, the Wraiths not having to hug cover certainly has its advantages.

So now we're also losing a CCB Lord in order to throw a Res Orb in there...ok. I'd agree with cover almost always. Still, you are getting close with Flayed Ones, and charging vehicles (apparently) so you won't always have it.

The way most people clump, "which unit has the BSS" is generally irrelevant. But yes, Imo certainly has huge synergistic elements with FOs. I certainly don't think I need to argue taking Imo for his own sake.

But it's against a random unit that you don't DS. You don't pick.

Completely agree. Which is why having both tools available is better then homogenization.

Or you could just spend the points on the myriad of better units in the codex...

Hey, Waitaminnit - Lvatx, Vassal? Dude, I'll totally take that!! I can fit these guys into my list no problem.

No, I don't use them currently, but guys, this isn't a stretch. We have to fill out our lists, particularly 2k lists, particularly Imotekh lists, with a few borderline units. We've got a choice, but the choice doesn't include Wraiths or Scarabs or Annihilation Barges or CCB's or Spyders or lions or tigers and bears, oh my! Those are *gone*. We've filled those slots *up* in some way. We have a kind of scruffy set of choices left. Shooty-centric doesn't work so good with Imotekh, either - Lanceteks and whatnot, I have a bunch of list flavors I try but the current one uses a C'Tan kitted for combat (no sissy WW crap, lol) that I could probably swap out for the Flayed Ones without a huge change in tactics.

Some of you all's criticisms are valid, but some aren't well founded. Again, you're not considering effectiveness differential, you're all over the map on your comparisons. You have a very very limited set of units and capabilities to choose from at the point you're even considering FO's.

We have to fill out our lists, particularly 2k lists, particularly Imotekh lists, with a few borderline units.

No, we really don't. In 2K pts the fast and heavy are filled, sure, but any extra points you got hanging can go into more HQ and/or Night Scythes for every troops unit if they didn't already have them. You'd really have to go to 3K pts before we enter the 'we must buy something from the elites slot' and even then we only begin the discussion whether Flayed Ones is really what we need or if we should go with veiling Lychguard, Stalkers or whatever else.

Therion wrote:

We have to fill out our lists, particularly 2k lists, particularly Imotekh lists, with a few borderline units.

No, we really don't. In 2K pts the fast and heavy are filled, sure, but any extra points you got hanging can go into more HQ and/or Night Scythes for every troops unit if they didn't already have them. You'd really have to go to 3K pts before we enter the 'we must buy something from the elites slot' and even then we only begin the discussion whether Flayed Ones is really what we need or if we should go with veiling Lychguard, Stalkers or whatever else.

The HQ slot is one of the first filled out, the NightScythes don't work (except one for objective grabbing) for certain list philosophies, particularly one where you're prolonging the engagement rather than early MTO style assaults, like you do. I've already posted my core on this thread, Therion - you seem pretty sharp on Necron army construction, the key difference between your philosophy and mine is that I avoid decisive engagement as long as possible. That makes Scarabs relatively more attractive, and Scythes relatively less. Given that, at 2k, yep, you're in the position of evaluating which specialist units to pick.

Imotekh based farming lists are also fairly starved for points. Imotekh + chronotek is ~300 and then i'd say it isnt an awful idea to take at least one pulse to insure 3-4 turns of night fight. So that core alone is around 350. Spyders and scarabs is another 400-500. A second hq, lets assume ccb lord is ~200. So now you sit around 1k without having filled out troops/fa/heavy. You really shouldnt be pressed to include a unit such as FOs. I also find that relying on scarabs to demech can be a risky move since many units can make quick work of the scarabs once disembarked. I do think the strategy can be highly effective against certain builds but I would hesitate to say it is the best TAC build a cron player can use. I still think a few scythes would be better as they can sit back and turbo into range whenever they need to. If using cc to demech were any good you'd see better overall results from armies like daemons and nids, who rely too heavily on cc for demeching.

I'd gladly play randall, send me a PM and we can set something up.

LValx wrote:I. I also find that relying on scarabs to demech can be a risky move since many units can make quick work of the scarabs once disembarked.

If my scarabs eat whatever it is that I set them to eat=Thats it. They paid for themselves. I dont care if you leave them alone, annihilate then with 17 flamers it doesnt matter. They did what i placed them on the board for. Even so, if you plasma cannon the heck out of them and wipe them out, thats it, they paid for themselves.

When i go into battle i dont expect every single model to come off the board at the end standing up. If i field 11 necron flyers, i dont expect 11 to come off the board at the end of the game. I think its the same idea for flayed ones, putting a little pressure in different areas. As it is, people are comfortable with what necrons do now. They cause night fighting, get in shooting range and shoot. People expecting that to be the typical thing will have to adjust to flayed ones outflanking. They may eat the gak, die by your 5 tac squad boltering them up/whatever.

LValx wrote:Imotekh based farming lists are also fairly starved for points. Imotekh + chronotek is ~300 and then i'd say it isnt an awful idea to take at least one pulse to insure 3-4 turns of night fight. So that core alone is around 350. Spyders and scarabs is another 400-500. A second hq, lets assume ccb lord is ~200. So now you sit around 1k without having filled out troops/fa/heavy. You really shouldnt be pressed to include a unit such as FOs. I also find that relying on scarabs to demech can be a risky move since many units can make quick work of the scarabs once disembarked. I do think the strategy can be highly effective against certain builds but I would hesitate to say it is the best TAC build a cron player can use. I still think a few scythes would be better as they can sit back and turbo into range whenever they need to. If using cc to demech were any good you'd see better overall results from armies like daemons and nids, who rely too heavily on cc for demeching.

I'd gladly play randall, send me a PM and we can set something up.

Well, we should just play anyway, I have time coming up and they added the Necron stuffs, I need to try it out.

I already posted my core, here it is again. Points works like: (no list builder, just typin' em in but very close)
(315) Imotekh + Chrono + Pulsetek 225+40+55
(210) CCB OLord mss ws sw
(390) 6xSpyer, AB
(440) 6xWraith, (2)6xScarab
--------------------------------------
1355 core HQ/FA/HS slots

Some wiggle room, sometimes I go pure Scarab Farm, sometimes I go MTO and swap Imo + Scarab/Wraiths for something like what jy2 takes including a full AB loadout == AV13 plus Wraiths, but I enjoy the challenge of "lurking" behind terrain and reacting to de-meched lightning victims. Basic theory is you're going to get 3 turns of lightning, and the odds of then getting it on turn 4 are 55%. By then there's a 52% chance *each unengaged enemy unit* will get struck *at least once* by lightning. (i know captain obvious, just explaining why i do what i do.)

But from this 1355 base, let's face it - we have to take some troops, but they're also marginal units. So at this point you're faced with the tradeoffs. I usually get one more Lancetek, but don't work particularly well with Imotekh, honestly a C'Tan isn't bad, Scythes have a habit of dying on me in the first three turns for the simple reason the enemy doesn't have many other targets if I'm doing it right so the flat-out cover doesn't guarantee they're off the to-do list. Sooo, FO's aren't the worst thing in the world.

Aside - when the balloon goes up, Scarabs and Spyders more than pull their weight against vehicles, and they are a team - you don't consider them separately. No vehicle or set of vehicles under any circumstances can take a multiassault from a late-game mature scarab farm unit, it's more a problem of delaying and then getting the targets to clump up. Basically it's delayed-MTO here, you have to bring it all together at the same time. AV13 is easier, this guerrilla fighting is more satisfying. (Unless Imo just goes off, in which case you have to deal with whining.)

must... work...

My issue with the scarabs is that when you sink ~500+ points into the engine you need to kill a fair amount to make the investment worth it. Killing 2-3 rhinos would be inefficient. When I face scarab heavy lists i'll usually screen more important vehicles with more expendable ones allowing me to minimize damage. Thats why I think foregoing shooting is very risky.

Indeed, considering scarabs are so fast that night fighting isnt going to help them, unless you hold them back for the first few turns to build up mass, and then send them forward in a huge wave.

Kain wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Ah, his math would still be off, and even then naked genestealers can more or less clear flayed ones off the table when they get the charge, and they will.

Actually...they won't.

Here is the most likely scenario:

You place the Flayed Ones in cover somewhere between the Genestealers (or where they are likely coming from if Outflanking) and your Warriors (or some other shooting based unit you don't want tangling with the GS).

The Genestealers can either:

A.) Assault your FOs in cover...and lose

B.) Try to ignore the FOs and run past, getting assaulted the next turn and ultimately losing.

C.) Go out of there way to to stay out of the assault range of the FOs, delaying their arrival at the Warriors, get shot to pieces by Gauss Flayers, and die.

Flayed Ones should only be used offensively if facing an army where such tactics are appropriate. If not (like say fighting a primarily CC based force), using them defensively to keep your Warriors/Immortals alive is perfectly acceptable. I honestly think this is the biggest "problem" with FOs...you have to use your brain. They aren't a wind up Electronic Football toy like a CCB where you just point it at stuff and say "kill."


Speaking of the CCB, I was thinking today how LValx and JGrand consider it the most amazingly efficient optimized unit ever in the history of Necrons and should be double tapped into every "competitive TAC list".

Now, it is certainly a very good vehicle killer (although an equal costed DLord has better odds against any vehicle not moving cruising speed and is significantly better in CC).

However, in a null vehicle list, the CCB is a very in-efficient use of points. So against Green Tide, Nob Bikers, ALL Nids, ALL Demons, many GK builds, many DA builds, some Necron Builds, many BA builds...etc...he is a rather poor point investment...

Does this mean that you shouldn't take CCBs? Of course not. Does this mean using the "some units in army X present problems for unit Y" is an absurdly ridiculous argument? I would say so.

Kain wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

1. That is called "moving the goal posts". You mention ALL these things AND the Broodlord, and that is used to enhance your argument. Not cricket, my good man.

2. You are still comparing a 380 point unit to a 260 one.

When I mentioned the broodlord, I'm saying that it was something the Genestealers could take, notice how it was not once mentioned in the actual calculations.

Genestealers cost 14 points, toxin sacs add two points, scything talons add two points, that's 360 points, your math is off. For a hundred points more I can have a unit that is vastly more versatile, much faster, synergizes better with the rest of the army, and doesn't overly compete with better options in it's slots. The Flayed one competes with the Lychguards and Stalkers, who are both probably better options most of the time, and heck, depending on the enemy; Deathmarks are a better choice.

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Kain wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Ah, his math would still be off, and even then naked genestealers can more or less clear flayed ones off the table when they get the charge, and they will.

Are you for real?

First you begin moving the goal posts.
Then you claim that my math is off as if that invalidates what I have said.
You are then told that my math is NOT off.

And what is your answer??

"His math is still off".


Really?

And 20 (naked) Genestealers (280) clear 20 Flayed Ones (260) off of the table?

Lets look at that, and allow me to make an assumption of my own.
Since you assume that the Genestealers get the charge (due to Fleet) I will assume that you are making a difficult terrain test when you charge (due to either terrain or Necron special rules).

Round 1

20 Genestealers
20 Flayed Ones

Flayed Ones (20)
60 Attacks - 30 Hits - 15 Wounds - 10 dead Genestealers

Genestealers (10)
30 Attacks - 20 Hits - 10 Wounds - 6 dead Flayed Ones (4 fail armour-saves + 2 rending hits)

2 Flayed Ones stand back up.

Round 2

10 Genestealers
16 Flayed Ones

Genestealers (10)
30 Attacks - 20 Hits - 10 Wounds - 6 dead Flayed Ones (as above)

Flayed Ones (10)
30 Attacks - 15 hits - 8 Wounds - 5 dead Genestealers

2 Flayed Ones stand back up

Round 3

5 Genestealers
12 Flayed Ones

Genestealers (5)
10 Attacks - 7 Hits - 3 Wounds - 2 dead Flayed Ones

Flayed Ones (10)
30 Attacks - 15 Hits - 7 Wounds - 5 dead Genestealers

No Flayed Ones stand back up.

Combat over.

8 Flayed Ones remaining.
This is not "clearing off of the table", now is it?
At best you can hope for mutual destruction.

Do you wish to move the goal posts further?



...

The math is a little more complicated than that and some of your numbers are indeed off. 20 hits is going to result in an average of at least 3 rendings. I decided to do a breakdown of a few different builds of genestealers

On the Charge
Each Genestealer with rending and toxic is doing 1 wound per turn 5.882 wounds per 100 points spent. 3.92 after resurrection protocols
Each Genestealer with rending and scything is doing .778 wounds per turn 4.8625 wounds per 100 points spent. 3.24 after resurrection protocols
Each Genestealer with rending scything and toxin sacs is doing 1.167 wounds per turn 6.142 wounds per 100 points spent 4.095 after resurrection protocols
Each Genestealer with rending scything and furious charge is doing .972 wounds per turn 5.116 wounds per 100 points spent 3.41 after resurrection protocols

Each Flayed one does .667 wounds per turn or 5.13 wounds per 100 points

Not on the Charge
Each Genestealer with rending and toxic is doing .667 wounds per turn 3.923 wounds per 100 points spent. 2.61 after resurrection protocols
Each Genestealer with rending and scything is doing .519 wounds per turn 3.244 per 100 points spent 2.16 after get back up
Each Genestealer with rending scything and toxin sacs is doing .778 wounds per turn 4.095 per 100 points spent 2.73 after get back up
Each Genestealer with rending scything and furious charge is doing .519 wounds per turn 2.373 wounds per point 1.582 after get back up

Each flayed one is going to do .50 wounds per turn. or 3.846 wounds per 100 points spent

So in a vacuum, other than on the charge genestealers are actually worse per point than flayed ones in combat. Now factor in things like initiative and yes they become much better based on killing power. Who would have thunk it huh?

Now lets take another look at the above scenario, Genestealers with rending scything and toxin sacs were the most efficient at killing per point, however I decided to go with the rending/toxin sacs combo because they are charging into cover and that would really work against the more expensive unit.

To make the points for the units even I had 17 flayed ones versus 13 genestealers

17 flayed ones: 8.5 dead genestealers
4.5 Genestealers: 4.5 wounds
Genestealers lose two more to no retreat, 1.5 flayed ones get back up

14 flayed ones against 4.5 remaining genestealers

4.5 genestealers: 3 downed flayed ones
11 flayed ones: 5.5 wounds

Genestealers wiped out, 12 flayed ones left

That is an accurate point for point combat, now if the flayed ones are not in cover it is a whole new deal

13 genestealers: 13 downed flayed ones
4 flayed ones: 2 dead genestealers

Flayed ones break and are killed

Leth wrote:The math is a little more complicated than that as most genestealers will have rending/scything I think. But also you forgot no retreat wounds Also 20 hits is going to result in a average of at least 3 rendings

He was doing nekked GS (no talons), but your right about the rending, it would be about 3 rends and about 3.5 deaths to failed saves. Doesn't change the results much though.

Doing the Mathhammer...

20 "naked" genestealers (or genes with toxin sacks - doesn't matter in this case) assaulting 20 flayed ones NOT in cover will decimate the flayed ones. Most likely the flayed ones will lose moral and be wiped out after the first round of combat.

If the Flayed Ones did the assaulting, it would be a much more drawn out combat... but the genes would still win - losing about half their numbers.

Now, the most favourable condition: Genes assaulting into terrain. Flayed ones win! With half remaining! (ie, the above calc is correct-o)

This does, of course, not take into consideration terrain effects brought on by abilities. Neither does it take into consideration other units that may affect the battle. I would expect the necrons to whittle down the genestealers somewhat - they would suffer much more than the flayed ones here due to their lower save. That said, if the gene's get the charge out in the open, one would have to get them down to half strength to avoid that first turn wipe.

So, in regards to Genestealers - the necron player would have to make the 'stealers play on his home turf

In regards to Orks, 15 Flayed Ones will win when assaulting any sized Ork mob (be they shootas or sluggas). 20 will also win when assaulted by 20 shootas, and any type of boyz below that number. Past that, they will lose when assaulted by 20-30 sluggas - but I think only MC's and AV11+ could survive that... (besides, you know, Purifiers - who would still lose 4-6 models to a 20 strong mob)

Leth wrote:The math is a little more complicated than that as most genestealers will have rending/scything I think

.

No, Kain postulated that "naked" Genestealers would curbstomp Flayed Ones. So of course the calculations are based on Genestealers without Lord, Talons and other stuff. Of course they are Rending as they are born with it.

But also you forgot no retreat wounds

What No Retreat wounds are you referring to?
Neither unit is Fearless, both have Ld 10. In trying to avoid unnecessary clutter I simply left Break tests out.

Also 20 hits is going to result in a average of at least 3 rendings

You are right. I calculated the number on rending wounds based on the number of successes, instead of based on the total number of dice rolled.
While this will change the individual results a little bit, it certainly isn't enough to change the final conclusion.

No retreat for the genestealers as they are likely to be in a synapse bubble. However outside of that it would be straight leadership.

I posted a per point update as well as combat for equal points of genestealers and flayed ones in my previous post. It was quite enlightening. Hope to do it with other units soon.

Leth wrote:No retreat for the genestealers as they are likely to be in a synapse bubble. However outside of that it would be straight leadership.

I posted a per point update as well as combat for equal points of genestealers and flayed ones in my previous post. It was quite enlightening. Hope to do it with other units soon.

I try to avoid guessing at what other units are likely to be nearby as that is hugely influenced by the flow of the game, the army-list and the local meta.

While I certainly realize that that is akin to looking at units in a vacuum (which is never good), it is motivated by ´trying to simplify the experiment enough that the data is actually useful instead of an attempt to analyse the entire battle/army.
When trying to math-hammer anything we are always walking a line between that simplification and an attempt to include as many factors as possible.

Yep, otherwise it gets to crazy. What if they had FNP, what if the flayed ones had counter attack? All these variables would get pretty bogged down. Still pretty interesting results in my opinion.

Even against thunder hammer storm shield terminators they can do a decent job of holding their own.

About 3 flayed ones per terminator.

3 flayed ones do.375 wounds
1 terminator does .875 wounds, .58 after resurrection protocols. Only they are always going first.

Speaking of the CCB, I was thinking today how LValx and JGrand consider it the most amazingly efficient optimized unit ever in the history of Necrons and should be double tapped into every "competitive TAC list".

Now, it is certainly a very good vehicle killer (although an equal costed DLord has better odds against any vehicle not moving cruising speed and is significantly better in CC).

However, in a null vehicle list, the CCB is a very in-efficient use of points. So against Green Tide, Nob Bikers, ALL Nids, ALL Demons, many GK builds, many DA builds, some Necron Builds, many BA builds...etc...he is a rather poor point investment...

Does this mean that you shouldn't take CCBs? Of course not. Does this mean using the "some units in army X present problems for unit Y" is an absurdly ridiculous argument? I would say so.

Sure, against some foot armies, the CCB is less efficient. However, you can almost always get use out of it. CCB's are still a fast way to charge an Overlord into units. Is it worth tying up Lootas, Psyfleman, and certain other manageable foot units? Is it worth being able to sweep over a Blood Angels unit and pick out the Priest on a 6? Absolutely.

Is the CCB always going to be the best thing ever? No. Is the CCB the best TAC choice? Absolutely. I don't know about you, but I don't tailor...

In a competitive TAC list, your goal is to take units that have the best chance at being effective versus all armies (or at the very least, the more popular builds). Flayed Ones don't fall into this category. If you need to know why, just take a look at LValX's post about why Flayed Ones fall short versus the vast majority of armies.

I'm pretty much done posting in this thread, as I feel like there isn't a point to debating further. Perhaps it was all a misunderstanding. Your above post leads me to believe that you aren't creating viable TAC lists for a competitive environment. If you are arguing Flayed Ones for kicks, fine. If you are arguing that they are slightly better than most people claim, I guess I can understand that. But, they are not a competitive unit.

At this point, you have had ample time to post some bat reps, play Vassal against a challenge, or even produce a list that you feel incorporates Flayed Ones in a competitive manner. Generally, the burden of proof falls on the person making claims contrary to the accepted paradigm. In this case, you provided hypotheticals. When those hypotheticals have been countered by mathhammer or examples of why Flayed Ones won't do anything substantial against commonly accepted units, you changed what you were arguing. Hell, even anecdotal evidence would be something at this point.

I'm all for trying to upset the apple cart and incorporate different units into lists. I love kicking around cool new ideas to spice up 40k. At the same time, you need to realize that there are truly lost causes in certain codices. Sadly, Flayed Ones are one of GW's big misses.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Kain wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Ah, his math would still be off, and even then naked genestealers can more or less clear flayed ones off the table when they get the charge, and they will.

Actually...they won't.

Here is the most likely scenario:

You place the Flayed Ones in cover somewhere between the Genestealers (or where they are likely coming from if Outflanking) and your Warriors (or some other shooting based unit you don't want tangling with the GS).

The Genestealers can either:

A.) Assault your FOs in cover...and lose

B.) Try to ignore the FOs and run past, getting assaulted the next turn and ultimately losing.

C.) Go out of there way to to stay out of the assault range of the FOs, delaying their arrival at the Warriors, get shot to pieces by Gauss Flayers, and die.

Flayed Ones should only be used offensively if facing an army where such tactics are appropriate. If not (like say fighting a primarily CC based force), using them defensively to keep your Warriors/Immortals alive is perfectly acceptable. I honestly think this is the biggest "problem" with FOs...you have to use your brain. They aren't a wind up Electronic Football toy like a CCB where you just point it at stuff and say "kill."


Speaking of the CCB, I was thinking today how LValx and JGrand consider it the most amazingly efficient optimized unit ever in the history of Necrons and should be double tapped into every "competitive TAC list".

Now, it is certainly a very good vehicle killer (although an equal costed DLord has better odds against any vehicle not moving cruising speed and is significantly better in CC).

However, in a null vehicle list, the CCB is a very in-efficient use of points. So against Green Tide, Nob Bikers, ALL Nids, ALL Demons, many GK builds, many DA builds, some Necron Builds, many BA builds...etc...he is a rather poor point investment...

Does this mean that you shouldn't take CCBs? Of course not. Does this mean using the "some units in army X present problems for unit Y" is an absurdly ridiculous argument? I would say so.

The CCB has far more uses than simply blowing up vehicles. As a fast vehicle it can contest objectives, escort falling back units and get your Overlord to the places where he can make a big difference. The Overlord is great for getting behind enemy lines and killing backfield troops choices, something any balanced list will take, including all those foot lists. Daemons definitely fear the CCB since Daemon players love to take minimum troops with small squad sizes, something the Overlord excels at killing. BA builds will suffer against CCBs because if they are on foot the sweep attack can pick out the Priests. DA builds fear them as well because the sweep can target the Cyclones resulting in a higher chance to neuter the squads shooting. Tide fears the Overlords because Lootas will get rolled by them.

Based on this thread I decided to try them out in my army.
Paired with Imotekh and a res orb destroyer lord, 10 flayed ones deep struck turn 3, managing to kill 3 squads of assault marines(2 were a combat squad) and contest 2 objectives by spreading out into a chain.

Based on this thread I decided to try them out in my army.
Paired with Imotekh and a res orb destroyer lord, 10 flayed ones deep struck turn 3, managing to kill 3 squads of assault marines(2 were a combat squad) and contest 2 objectives by spreading out into a chain.

Pretty sure you can't attach characters to the Flayed Ones unit who don't have deep strike and then deep strike in...

Well, i bet imotekh wasnt too much of a help in that fight anyway.

While a dlord may have better numbers against vehicles who don't move it has worse numbers against things that do. Movement blocking also bones them. They have lesser range and rely on cc to demech. It is almost always better to destroy vehicles before the assault phase.

LValx wrote:While a dlord may have better numbers against vehicles who don't move it has worse numbers against things that do. Movement blocking also bones them. They have lesser range and rely on cc to demech. It is almost always better to destroy vehicles before the assault phase.

Wrong, they have better numbers against vehicles that move Combat Speed or slower (although against combat speed its only a slight advantage). I understand you think that (killing vehicles in the assault phase), and that might have been true in the past, but that paradigm has shifted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

When those hypotheticals have been countered by mathhammer or examples of why Flayed Ones won't do anything substantial against commonly accepted units, you changed what you were arguing. Hell, even anecdotal evidence would be something at this point.

That hasn't actually happened at all. In fact, what has been clearly demonstrated, is if used competently they will perform sufficiently against a wide variety of targets. The real telling thing here is despite this being clearly spelled out for you you insist on clinging to your pre-concieved notions. I have no burden of proof, the fact that the most vocal two people on this thread shouting out opposition come from the exact same school of thought (and apparently plat together) proves the game theory and memetic stimuli I started this thread discussing. You and LValx have clearly demonstrated that you haven't even taken a moment to actually consider how Flayed Ones could operate synergistically within their respective codex. Every single point LValx brought up would be easily countered by a competent general. I, and others, have already showed this with three of the units (Orc Boys, GS, and Purifiers, well, I didn't fully show it with the Purifiers, but in short, bring Gloom Prisms). It's not my responsibility to fill in all the gaps of your willful intellectual laziness, especially when you won't even have the intellectual honesty to concede when you've been proven wrong.

I have fought my share of tournament style lists with my list. The fact that you are unable to see its viability really means nothing to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JGrand wrote:

Based on this thread I decided to try them out in my army.
Paired with Imotekh and a res orb destroyer lord, 10 flayed ones deep struck turn 3, managing to kill 3 squads of assault marines(2 were a combat squad) and contest 2 objectives by spreading out into a chain.

Pretty sure you can't attach characters to the Flayed Ones unit who don't have deep strike and then deep strike in...

DLords are Jump Infantry...

But I find it positively shocking that the second some one does post anecdotal evidence you try to slam them with inaccurate information. I've said this already, but if I could post fully detailed BRs of all of my games with the unit all I'm going to get out of you are "your opponent was bad, your dice were good, etc."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Basimpo wrote:Well, i bet imotekh wasnt too much of a help in that fight anyway.

Perhaps, definitely not with the scarabs (I assume the DLord can't take advantage of this, never tried to myself). However 3 turns of Lightning and Night Fighting the turn they arrived (assuming this happened) very well could have saved them from a bullet or two that otherwise would have been heading in their direction.

My bad on the d lord. I meant at cruising speed of course. The fact remains that the ccb is a better tac unit. It has the ability to do many different things. Denying cover is absolutely huge. Also the ability to sweep and disembark, thus targetting two vehicles. That is a giant advantage. The Lord can also hit on 3's, if moving at combat speed, putting him even with the DLord. Not endorsing that tactic but pointing out it is very possible. Especially if you plan to disembark and go for the 2 units.

Second, I don't have some personal vendetta against flayed ones. If you provided some better arguments as to why I should eschew the better units in favor of them I would be open to them. If I had played against them and was impressed, I may be open to them. However, that hasnt happened. I dont think they belong in a TAC list. And dont accuse me of being unoriginal or "lazy", I've tested many different units and I believe the cron codex can field many versatile builds. I just do not think FOs fit into any of them due to a case of mistaken identity.

If you honestly think the FOs beat Stealers at similar costs, I dont know what to do for you. Of course you can sit them in cover but the stealers dont need to assault them since they are merely cc threats. On a pt for pt basis GS are more effective at their role of dedicated CC (faster, rending, high init., high ws). Ork boyz at similar pt levels can do more due to the ability to shoot. On the charge they should do quite well against FOs. Having gloom prism close helps but Spyders are slow and stringing out the FO's can easily cause you to be denied attacks, its not so black and white as to simply say Prism tips the balance. Supporting units not considered the Purifiers do extremely well vs FO's.

You are the one who has a personal investment in evaluating the unit, not me. I'm attempting to make the most objective judgment when it comes to the unit and all signs point to bad.

And the paradigm is shifting to cc being effective for de-meching? Since when? Are nids, orks and daemons suddenly top tier? Just because scarabs exist doesnt make it a good mechanic. Yes, they are good anti armor but they are far more specialized than units like a D lord. In fact they are head and shoulders above other anti vehicle cc units. Due to the order of phases shooting is the best manner in which to demech, especially if using designed anti infantry units such as Wraiths. Movement is even better but only Crons have access to that unique tool.

If you want to prove something hurry along and playtest with me. I expect that you playtest often, judging by your extreme confidence. Unless, of course, you're merely an armchair general? I know I play against two Necron players and I play against Crons 3-4 times a week. Im fairly confident in my knowledge of the codex and understanding what works and what doesn't.

P.S. you still have yet to show a list, not exactly helpin your credibility.

LValx wrote:The Lord can also hit on 3's, if moving at combat speed, putting him even with the DLord. Not endorsing that tactic but pointing out it is very possible. Especially if you plan to disembark and go for the 2 units.

True. But this leaves the CCB pretty vulnerable, and the DLord is still going to operate more efficiently in CC, and can hide quite well in Jump Infantry. A CCB is one well placed Rocket or Lascannon away from being effectively neutered. (I still think the CCB is a great unit, but the DLord is a great unit as well).

If you honestly think the FOs beat Stealers at similar costs, I dont know what to do for you. Of course you can sit them in cover but the stealers dont need to assault them since they are merely cc threats. On a pt for pt basis GS are more effective at their role of dedicated CC (faster, rending, high init., high ws). Ork boyz at similar pt levels can do more due to the ability to shoot. On the charge they should do quite well against FOs. Having gloom prism close helps but Spyders are slow and stringing out the FO's can easily cause you to be denied attacks, its not so black and white as to simply say Prism tips the balance. Supporting units not considered the Purifiers do extremely well vs FO's.

Again, the GS and Orcs are less resistant to shooting, have no access to Night Fighting, and despite this the FOs can still beat them in CC if used competently. You keep parading this out as an established fact...and it's not.

Sure, Purifiers do extremely well against them if unsupported, as they do against every single horde based CC unit in the game. What exactly does this prove? Please spell it out for me because I see no valid point being made here.

You are the one who has a personal investment in evaluating the unit, not me. I'm attempting to make the most objective judgment when it comes to the unit and all signs point to bad.

Perhaps. And it doesn't seem like you play Necrons yourself, and no one who does in your play group brings Flayed Ones. Can you at least admit a lack of exposure here?

And the paradigm is shifting to cc being effective for de-meching? Since when? Are nids, orks and daemons suddenly top tier? Just because scarabs exist doesnt make it a good mechanic. Yes, they are good anti armor but they are far more specialized than units like a D lord. In fact they are head and shoulders above other anti vehicle cc units. Due to the order of phases shooting is the best manner in which to demech, especially if using designed anti infantry units such as Wraiths. Movement is even better but only Crons have access to that unique tool.

The fact that Necrons are covered with vehicle stunning/immobilizing weapons (Gauss, Tesla Destructors, Imo Lighting, etc) means the opportunity to run across a stalled vehicle in CC is much higher then with most armies. I think we can both agree that there is no statistically more favorable way to destroy a vehicle then assaulting one that hasn't moved, setting up these conditions are quite easy for the Necrons, it just takes a little foresight (where will my CC units be next turn).

If you want to prove something hurry along and playtest with me. I expect that you playtest often, judging by your extreme confidence. Unless, of course, you're merely an armchair general? I know I play against two Necron players and I play against Crons 3-4 times a week. Im fairly confident in my knowledge of the codex and understanding what works and what doesn't.

P.S. you still have yet to show a list, not exactly helpin your credibility.

Still hoping for the flag pole after school so I can defend my girl friend's honor eh? I gave you enough to draw a reasonable idea of what my list might look like, you respond with derision as was to be expected. I have no intention of derailing my own thread with "your list is bad" obfuscating.