what is their outlook on each other.....from what I have read it seems that not all Eldar are bad and specifically Ulthwe have fought with the Imperium

They are the closest nations that are nearly allies but hate each other as well. That's what I fathom anyway. But really just for the sake of the game their enemies with a passion but if Tyranids, Chaos, Greenskins or some other races attack they have been known to work together.

These two will generally try to avoid each other. They'll fight at times but have also allied against others almost as many times.

The Eldar can't hope to stop the Imperium if it ever turned all it's might on them, but that's not likely to happen what with all the Orks, Tyranids and other critters making much more of a nuisance for the humans. In a way the Imperium is a buffer of human bodies between the Eldar and anything hungry.

The Imperium is generally willing to ignore the Eldar if they keep out of the way. Besides the cost of engaging them would be much too high for little gain - the last known attack against a major Craftworld resulted in the loss of an entire Sector Fleet!

As others have already said the Imperium and Eldar tend to try to ignore each other for the most part.

Unfortunately for the Eldar, apart from those few with access to such information, the vast majority of the Imperium sees no difference between Craftworld Eldar, Corsairs, Exodites and Dark Eldar, viewing them all as a fickle and terrible threat the lurks just outside their territory (having no concept of the webway). Because of this for every instance where the Eldar gain something in the way of tolerance by assisting Imperial forces in their time of need, there are probably three Dark Eldar raids or attacks by other forces that reinforces the opinion of many Imperial officials that they are as much of a threat, if infitinitely more fickle, as any other xenos. In cases where Imperials do find themselves co-operating with Eldar they do so only with the greatest reluctance and distrust, and certainly aren't going to parade around the fact that they actually worked with xenos.

For the most part the Imperium is too busy worrying about the Ork or Tyranid trying to stab them in the face to pay much attention to the Eldar who might or might not stab them in the back.

Leave well enough alone is the common policy for both sides. Destroying the other is not impossible, but with exhaust the victor to the point they'd be wiped out by other enemies.

The Eldar also enjoy manipulating the Imperium to avoid Eldar deaths. Armeggeddon anyone? Literally using humans as well... human shields.

Not so much "enjoy" as "willing to sacrifice a million worthless human lives for the life of one Eldar".

Craftworld Eldar, at least, are ruthless not sadistic. On top of that I doubt the Imperium has any clue that Armageddon was due to the machinations of the Eldar.

I like to think of them as the ancient greeks, with the Spartans and Athenians. The two nation states hated each other and fought many times against eachother, but put aside their differences every once in a while to fight a greater enemy such as the persians.
such as at the battle of thermopyae where there were actually over thousand athenians who fought and died with the famous 300.

just the way that I like to think of their relations

dajobe wrote:I like to think of them as the ancient greeks, with the Spartans and Athenians. The two nation states hated each other and fought many times against eachother, but put aside their differences every once in a while to fight a greater enemy such as the persians.
such as at the battle of thermopyae where there were actually over thousand athenians who fought and died with the famous 300.

Thebians (as well as a few others) not Athenians, but a fairly decent comparison. If Athens was capable of floating around and disappearing almost at will you'd be bang on.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

dajobe wrote:I like to think of them as the ancient greeks, with the Spartans and Athenians. The two nation states hated each other and fought many times against eachother, but put aside their differences every once in a while to fight a greater enemy such as the persians.
such as at the battle of thermopyae where there were actually over thousand athenians who fought and died with the famous 300.

Thebians (as well as a few others) not Athenians, but a fairly decent comparison. If Athens was capable of floating around and disappearing almost at will you'd be bang on.

your right, my bad, lol but the greek city state analogy was what i was going for

and in my fake greek period, the peninsula is getting attacked by Persians, Romans, Egyptians and about everyone else around the mediteranean at once lol

Imperium: Xenos filth no different from Orks or Tyranids. Kill and purge them all. However if the situation of desperate enough, a more sensible commander or Inquisitor will work with them.

Eldar: Imperium are lower savages, foolishly on the path to self-destruction and bumbling/dangerous. However if the situation is desperate enough, they can be useful.

To the Imperium, eldar just more xenos to be exterminated. Usually.

@Harriticus: QFT.

The Eldar resort to sacrificing innocents on a grand scale, tapping into the powers of necromancy to get their own dead to fight and die again, they hide from the universe and believe they play the part of a universal secret service to stop themselves from being killed by killing a million times more lives and they worship a God that only cares for himself, only ever aiding his followers after a deal made in the blood of a hero.

any race with a sense of morality would call a force with that description 'evil' or one of the other shades of gray for that word. the seers scrying for salvation in the future works no harder than the wretches in the bottom of a hive city. Their accomplishments no more than the damage they have done. they've tried to split themselves from their stronger half but still find that any method is allowed to achieve their goal.

Lotet wrote:The Eldar resort to sacrificing innocents on a grand scale, tapping into the powers of necromancy to get their own dead to fight and die again, they hide from the universe and believe they play the part of a universal secret service to stop themselves from being killed by killing a million times more lives and they worship a God that only cares for himself, only ever aiding his followers after a deal made in the blood of a hero.

any race with a sense of morality would call a force with that description 'evil' or one of the other shades of gray for that word. the seers scrying for salvation in the future works no harder than the wretches in the bottom of a hive city. Their accomplishments no more than the damage they have done. they've tried to split themselves from their stronger half but still find that any method is allowed to achieve their goal.

Really don't lie Eldar do you?

But, look at it this way. Eldar summon their WAR GOD to help them in battle, which is naturally done by the craftworld's battlelust. The imperium sacrifices thousands every day to fuel the golden throne. Also, the Avatar isn't a god they worship, he is a fraction of their god.
They use 'necromancy' because they are a dying race, and hate doing it. They only awaken their dead in times of need. And considering it's putting a fully conscious spirit into a new body, not physically necromancy as you know it.
And considering the Eldar engineered Armageddon, and countless other things, I'd say they play a pretty big part as they 'hide in the shadows'.

The Imperium commits atrocities on a daily basis 10 times worse than any the eldar do. To avoid extinction they use humanity, with its abundance of super soldiers and manpower to solve problems, without them knowing.


I'm curious to know what army you play, and why you have such a bitterness for the Eldar...


Von Chogg

Lotet wrote:The Eldar resort to sacrificing innocents on a grand scale, tapping into the powers of necromancy to get their own dead to fight and die again, they hide from the universe and believe they play the part of a universal secret service to stop themselves from being killed by killing a million times more lives and they worship a God that only cares for himself, only ever aiding his followers after a deal made in the blood of a hero.

any race with a sense of morality would call a force with that description 'evil' or one of the other shades of gray for that word. the seers scrying for salvation in the future works no harder than the wretches in the bottom of a hive city. Their accomplishments no more than the damage they have done. they've tried to split themselves from their stronger half but still find that any method is allowed to achieve their goal.

Is this really any different from what the Imperium does? The smallest taint of heresy can lead to the death of millions at the hands of the Inquisition. The Imperium burns planets and drives entire species to extinction simply to further Mankind's interests. No one in 40k is good - everything and everyone is grey. And I don't recall the Eldar still worshipped their gods. They still venerate them as far as I know, but they don't worship them anymore or ask for their intervention.

Harriticus wrote:Imperium: Xenos filth no different from Orks or Tyranids. Kill and purge them all. However if the situation of desperate enough, a more sensible commander or Inquisitor will work with them.

Eldar: Imperium are lower savages, foolishly on the path to self-destruction and bumbling/dangerous. However if the situation is desperate enough, they can be useful.

I agree this is my view as well. I think the Eldar use humans to save Eldar lives

Von Chogg wrote:Really don't like Eldar do you?

But, look at it this way. Eldar summon their WAR GOD to help them in battle, which is naturally done by the craftworld's battlelust. The imperium sacrifices thousands every day to fuel the golden throne. Also, the Avatar isn't a god they worship, he is a fraction of their god.
They use 'necromancy' because they are a dying race, and hate doing it. They only awaken their dead in times of need. And considering it's putting a fully conscious spirit into a new body, not physically necromancy as you know it.
And considering the Eldar engineered Armageddon, and countless other things, I'd say they play a pretty big part as they 'hide in the shadows'.

The Imperium commits atrocities on a daily basis 10 times worse than any the eldar do. To avoid extinction they use humanity, with its abundance of super soldiers and manpower to solve problems, without them knowing.


I'm curious to know what army you play, and why you have such a bitterness for the Eldar...


Von Chogg

I play Dark Eldar right now, at least they know they're evil and are in it for themselves. the Craftworld Eldar wiped out a race because it would threaten them thousands of years into the future, if that's the case then the race would not have been steam rolled by any of the other races and would have become at least a minor galactic power. but no, they're gone, who are they to decide that one race that had a chance to thrive should be stamped out to save themselves?

they do this all the time, they don't help the humans when a common foe enters the fray, they manipulated the enemy to fight against the humans and then aided the humans so the enemy wouldn't over run them and head toward a Craftworld. the Dark Eldar don't use sorcery to protect themselves. they are simply supremely better at remaining hidden. maybe their Craftworld cousins should learn how to hide better themselves. it would save billions of lives.

Tadashi wrote:Is this really any different from what the Imperium does? The smallest taint of heresy can lead to the death of millions at the hands of the Inquisition. The Imperium burns planets and drives entire species to extinction simply to further Mankind's interests. No one in 40k is good - everything and everyone is grey. And I don't recall the Eldar still worshipped their gods. They still venerate them as far as I know, but they don't worship them anymore or ask for their intervention.

have you ever read the line:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"
now I'll ask you: Do you believe more lives would be saved by the alternative?

Lotet wrote:I play Dark Eldar right now, at least they know they're evil and are in it for themselves. the Craftworld Eldar wiped out a race because it would threaten them thousands of years into the future, if that's the case then the race would not have been steam rolled by any of the other races and would have become at least a minor galactic power. but no, they're gone, who are they to decide that one race that had a chance to thrive should be stamped out to save themselves?

they do this all the time, they don't help the humans when a common foe enters the fray, they manipulated the enemy to fight against the humans and then aided the humans so the enemy wouldn't over run them and head toward a Craftworld. the Dark Eldar don't use sorcery to protect themselves. they are simply supremely better at remaining hidden. maybe their Craftworld cousins should learn how to hide better themselves. it would save billions of lives.

Dark Eldar conduct their raids to drink the souls of those captured, which is then slowly sapped by Slaanesh. They are "evil" to survive. They just take pleasure in doing so.

The Eldar, as I'm sure you'll know, are a very arrogant, conceited people. They once rules the galaxy and view it as their right to "weed out" those who would threaten them. After all, if humanity was dying and it learned there would come a race in thousands of years which would wipe them out, I'm sure they would also take the chance to kill that race.

The Eldar don't truly help anyone but themselves; they are very pragmatic in their approach to humanity; they despise and envy them as humanity resembles the Eldar in many ways when they were at the height of their power but they realise that the Imperium is the galaxy's only hope of defeat the Eldar's many enemies. Also, the Eldar don't use sorcery, they use precognition to protect themselves whereas the Dark Eldar hide in the Webway because in real space, Slaanesh's soul-sucking becomes even stronger.

Comparing Dark eldar to Eldar is quite silly; they are both 2 sides of the same coin, of course there will be similarities but the two ultimately have different aims and goals.

Iranna.

Eldar depends on the Craftworld. Some will work with the IoM some would rather slaughter them instead. They're almost like separate factions at times.

I think it was the Biel-Tan that originally gave the IoM the view of them as back stabbers, but not completely sure on that. I know they're supposed to be the more arrogant of the Craftworlds, which may come from the amount of aspect warriors they have.

Lotet wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Is this really any different from what the Imperium does? The smallest taint of heresy can lead to the death of millions at the hands of the Inquisition. The Imperium burns planets and drives entire species to extinction simply to further Mankind's interests. No one in 40k is good - everything and everyone is grey. And I don't recall the Eldar still worshipped their gods. They still venerate them as far as I know, but they don't worship them anymore or ask for their intervention.

have you ever read the line:
"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand realise that you have no right to let them live!"
now I'll ask you: Do you believe more lives would be saved by the alternative?

n0t_u wrote:
I think it was the Biel-Tan that originally gave the IoM the view of them as back stabbers, but not completely sure on that. I know they're supposed to be the more arrogant of the Craftworlds, which may come from the amount of aspect warriors they have.

That's correct. The Eldar Codex makes mention that Biel-Tan warhosts have fought alongside imperial guardsmen against a common foe like orks several times, only to turn their weapons on their would-be allies and slaughter just when victory is secured.

They're the most aggressively xenophobic of the Craftworld Eldar. Other Cratworlds generally only kill xenos to preserve their own safety.

In one of the Gaunts Ghosts novels, the Tanith 1st and the Eldar seem to get along just fine for the time they were in their presence. Gaunt going as far as punching another trooper in the face because he was bad-mouthing the Eldar. But yeah, Gaunt isn't a typical Commisar, and seems to be quite a bit more intelligent, and generally a better person.

Almost all conflicts are initiated by the Eldar. The Imperium usually has no idea where any Craftworld Eldar are but then they suddenly show up kill a bunch of people and leave. They had their reasons of course but it pisses those humans off obviously.

I think the races views on each other are as varied as the individual experiences with each other.

On the whole though, the average Eldar are far more aware of the humans than the Humans, in general, are aware of the Eldar (if they even know they exist at all.)

As a blanket statement, I think it's fair to say that the Eldar see Humanity as a race similar to themselves in many ways (and therefore dangerous), but without the controls in place to justify any real meaningful alliances. Further complicated by imperial dogma and blind ignorance. Seeing humanity as a "lost cause" or doomed at one extreme, or for similar reasons dangerous and expendable as they are ultimately inferior at the other. Breeding feelings which range from condescension and pity to apathy, or contempt.

In the current fluff, the Eldar are, despite outward appearances in a lot of the artwork and wishful thinking especially on the part of certain fans, down to every detail very different from Humanity and truly alien.

Uhlan wrote:In the current fluff, the Eldar are, despite outward appearances in a lot of the artwork and wishful thinking especially on the part of certain fans, down to every detail very different from Humanity and truly alien.

Thank you for that. QFT.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Uhlan wrote:In the current fluff, the Eldar are, despite outward appearances in a lot of the artwork and wishful thinking especially on the part of certain fans, down to every detail very different from Humanity and truly alien.

Thank you for that. QFT.

Most ironically, Eldar think the same way. To them, Humans are like Eldar in appearance, but are very different from Eldar and as alien to them as they are to Humans. So once again, the two species are more alike to each other in their mutual feelings for the other than any other species in the galaxy.

Tadashi wrote:

Iranna wrote:The Eldar don't truly help anyone but themselves; they are very pragmatic in their approach to humanity; they despise and envy them as humanity resembles the Eldar in many ways when they were at the height of their power but they realise that the Imperium is the galaxy's only hope of defeat the Eldar's many enemies.

Iranna.

The Eldar envy Humans? I've never heard of that before, and I don't understand why they would either.

The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

Spetulhu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Iranna wrote:The Eldar don't truly help anyone but themselves; they are very pragmatic in their approach to humanity; they despise and envy them as humanity resembles the Eldar in many ways when they were at the height of their power but they realise that the Imperium is the galaxy's only hope of defeat the Eldar's many enemies.

Iranna.

The Eldar envy Humans? I've never heard of that before, and I don't understand why they would either.

The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

But that would mean the Eldar acknowledging that humanity is somehow better than them. Much easier to put it all up to something else, like the Eldar tidying up the galaxy before their fall and the humans taking advantage of it. That is after all what envy is about - thinking that other guy doesn't deserve what he has because, well, you're the one who should have it.

I think the Eldar view humans as a giant meat-sheild against the likes of Orks, Tyranids and even Chaos most of the time. Usually the two of them are the lesser evils of a whole lot of evils.

Tadashi wrote:
The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

Eh, the Necrontyr achieved a higher tech level and a more widespread empire at their height before the interference of the C'Tan than the humans ever have. But then again, the Necrontyr really aren't around anymore...

At most the Eldar are pragmatic and realize if the Imperium fell apart the Eldar would soon be eaten up by every other force in the galaxy as it grew strong on Humanities remains.

The Eldar need the Emperor alive as much as the Imperium does, with out the Imperium the Eldar are toast.

Spetulhu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

But that would mean the Eldar acknowledging that humanity is somehow better than them. Much easier to put it all up to something else, like the Eldar tidying up the galaxy before their fall and the humans taking advantage of it. That is after all what envy is about - thinking that other guy doesn't deserve what he has because, well, you're the one who should have it.

True, but you asked what did Humans do to deserve an empire. Basically, my point was that since Humans (and the Tyranids and the Tau) weren't designed by another species and as such didn't get their technology and special abilities from someone else, we are actually more deserving of a galactic empire since we had to work twice as hard to get where we are. Even the Necrons got something - immortality and access to the Webway - from the C'tan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alexzandvar wrote:At most the Eldar are pragmatic and realize if the Imperium fell apart the Eldar would soon be eaten up by every other force in the galaxy as it grew strong on Humanities remains.

The Eldar need the Emperor alive as much as the Imperium does, with out the Imperium the Eldar are toast.

Which they would never admit.

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:The humans have a huge empire, something the Eldar used to have at the height of their power. I'm sure there's a bit of envy in there behind the amusement and contempt. Whatever did the humans actually do to deserve an empire?

The newcron codex removed all links between Humans and the elder races. Therefore, unlike the Eldar and the Orks, or the Necrons (to a lesser extent) who got their powers and technology from an elder race (the Old Ones and the C'tan), the Humans deserve an empire more because they had to do everything with their own power and achievements. Don't forget, for all his power and knowledge, the Emperor was still Human.

But that would mean the Eldar acknowledging that humanity is somehow better than them. Much easier to put it all up to something else, like the Eldar tidying up the galaxy before their fall and the humans taking advantage of it. That is after all what envy is about - thinking that other guy doesn't deserve what he has because, well, you're the one who should have it.

True, but you asked what did Humans do to deserve an empire. Basically, my point was that since Humans (and the Tyranids and the Tau) weren't designed by another species and as such didn't get their technology and special abilities from someone else, we are actually more deserving of a galactic empire since we had to work twice as hard to get where we are. Even the Necrons got something - immortality and access to the Webway - from the C'tan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alexzandvar wrote:At most the Eldar are pragmatic and realize if the Imperium fell apart the Eldar would soon be eaten up by every other force in the galaxy as it grew strong on Humanities remains.

The Eldar need the Emperor alive as much as the Imperium does, with out the Imperium the Eldar are toast.

Which they would never admit.

If the Emperor became a god in the Warp after his "death" and the astronomicon stayed lit with his power I could see the Eldar setting up some Alliances with the Imperium, as a reborn Emperor could probably smack them down and the Eldar would most likely rather continue to exist rather than rail against the Imperium.

@Alexandvar

It's possible, but considering their legendary arrogance, it's unlikely.

In my opinion the Imperium and the Eldar form a symbiant circle that proves slightly more advantageous to the eldar.
The imperium is a buffer zone (as alot of you have said) between The Eldar and the other factions of the galaxy.
Without the imperium, the eldar would really only be able to direct things like 'Waagh's!' on the tau. Which may work but (this may cause alot of flak on me) I believe the tau may actually be smart enough to realise what is happening and would avoid the path being set before them by the seers. So also in a way the "Stupidity of man" helps the eldar as they do not realise what has happened until long after it happens.
Well I suppose it may not really be symbiant as the imperium doesn't really gain an advantage from the eldar but who knows what would happen if the eldar weren't there.

But I personally believe that if the imperium and the eldar were to unite they would form an almost unstoppable force, the technological prowess rivaled by only the tau in comparison and divination and psychic abilities almost unmatched alongside the sheer numbers and combine tactical genuises.

emphan34 wrote:In my opinion the Imperium and the Eldar form a symbiant circle that proves slightly more advantageous to the eldar.
The imperium is a buffer zone (as alot of you have said) between The Eldar and the other factions of the galaxy.
Without the imperium, the eldar would really only be able to direct things like 'Waagh's!' on the tau. Which may work but (this may cause alot of flak on me) I believe the tau may actually be smart enough to realise what is happening and would avoid the path being set before them by the seers. So also in a way the "Stupidity of man" helps the eldar as they do not realise what has happened until long after it happens.
Well I suppose it may not really be symbiant as the imperium doesn't really gain an advantage from the eldar but who knows what would happen if the eldar weren't there.

I believe the term is commensalism. The Imperium gains nothing, while the Eldar do.

But I personally believe that if the imperium and the eldar were to unite they would form an almost unstoppable force, the technological prowess rivaled by only the tau in comparison and divination and psychic abilities almost unmatched alongside the sheer numbers and combine tactical genuises.

Agreed. Through the Webway, the Imperium's vast fleets and numerous soldiers arrive where they should be at the right time or even before. Combine Eldar precognition with Human unpredictability, and you've got a chaotic order potential equal to the Orks. Nothing would stand in their way. Problem now is how to make it happen - the only man who can make it happen, the Emperor, is still stuck on the Golden Throne.

Tadashi wrote:
I believe the term is commensalism. The Imperium gains nothing, while the Eldar do.

Not so, the Imperium has a xenos that is neutral, for the most part, which can act as a shield against the more aggressive enemies. A clear example would be how Iyaden unwittingly blunted a major splinter of the Tyranid menace by itself, which otherwise would have drove right on into the heart of the Segmentum. A xenos that may or may not try to shoot you is always preferable to a xenos that will always try to eat your face off.

Agreed. Through the Webway, the Imperium's vast fleets and numerous soldiers arrive where they should be at the right time or even before.

That's not how travel through the webway works. And the chaotic nature of warp travel is only part of the problem, the Imperium's stumbling bureaucracy is the main reason behind the Imperium's lethargic response.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Agreed. Through the Webway, the Imperium's vast fleets and numerous soldiers arrive where they should be at the right time or even before.

That's not how travel through the webway works. And the chaotic nature of warp travel is only part of the problem, the Imperium's stumbling bureaucracy is the main reason behind the Imperium's lethargic response.

The Emperor disagrees. He sought to gain access to the Webway because it would free Humans from dependence on astro-telepathy and warp travel, setting the stage for the next part of His plan. The Webway would allow the Imperium to deploy entire fleets and armies across the galaxy quickly and safely.

Tadashi wrote:

The Emperor disagrees.

The Emperor disagreed with Eldrad over a certain something and look how that turned out.

He sought to gain access to the Webway because it would free Humans from dependence on astro-telepathy and warp travel, setting the stage for the next part of His plan. The Webway would allow the Imperium to deploy entire fleets and armies across the galaxy quickly and safely.

That's not what you said though. The Webway allows swift access to pretty much anywhere, that's true, but it doesn't allow people to arrive before they've even left like you suggested. That only occurs in a few warp anomalies.

And again, you would have the massive bureaucracy to deal with.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

The Emperor disagrees.

The Emperor disagreed with Eldrad over a certain something and look how that turned out.

My point was that the Emperor wanted access to the Webway. And the Emperor's older, wiser, and more powerful than Eldrad. I suspect Eldrad met/fought the Emperor before He became Emperor, most likely foreseeing the old man's plans, but was either rebuffed, or IMO, had his ass handed to him. Either the old man let him live as an insult, or Eldrad escaped by pure luck.

He sought to gain access to the Webway because it would free Humans from dependence on astro-telepathy and warp travel, setting the stage for the next part of His plan. The Webway would allow the Imperium to deploy entire fleets and armies across the galaxy quickly and safely.

That's not what you said though. The Webway allows swift access to pretty much anywhere, that's true, but it doesn't allow people to arrive before they've even left like you suggested. That only occurs in a few warp anomalies.

And again, you would have the massive bureaucracy to deal with.

1. Dark Eldar aren't supremely better at hiding themselves compared to the Craftworld, they are supremely better at situating themselves where nearly no one can get.
The Dark Eldar do not have an ultimate goal in their existance which over-arches their own survival, so they can afford to prey on others whereas Craftworlders are forced to roam the real space in order to combat both Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons.

2. While Eldar were given a fully evolved body, supremely better than Humans both in terms of culture, psyche, physique as well as intellectual knowledge, the humans did not have to fight anyone but themselves. Eldar on the other hand had to fight not only the Necron empire at the height of it's power, but also their own maker and god, Khaine.

Mahtamori wrote:
2. While Eldar were given a fully evolved body, supremely better than Humans both in terms of culture, psyche, physique as well as intellectual knowledge, the humans did not have to fight anyone but themselves. Eldar on the other hand had to fight not only the Necron empire at the height of it's power, but also their own maker and god, Khaine.

True Humans have never fought the Necron Empire at it's height, but I would disagree on the gods part. The Humans' own gods are waging a war on them. I am of the opinion that, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and, following millennia of feeding off of Mankind as well, Slaanesh (to a lesser degree as well), represent the negative aspects of Mankind. The Emperor represents the positive aspect. Until the Emperor truly 'ascends' and purifies Chaos, this war will continue. So Humans and their gods are still fighting each other. This would correspond IMO to the ancient part of Eldar history, when they fought their gods and the Necrons at the same time. Just like the Eldar long ago, the Humans are now fighting their gods and the other species of the galaxy at the same time.

No, that's not exactly what I mean. While I DID exaggerate in order to make the point that Eldar never received anything for free, but the chaos gods of present date is more than anything a result of the destructive birth of Slaanesh than anything bar possibly the fall of the Emperor.
What Khaine did was weaponize a few Eldar and use them against their own race, very nearly destroying them and murdering Eldanesh in the process.

Edit: I'm unusually clumsy with my choice of words of late, "the power of the chaos gods". I do not at all mean to imply Eldar created the other three.

Mahtamori wrote:No, that's not exactly what I mean. While I DID exaggerate in order to make the point that Eldar never received anything for free, but the chaos gods of present date is more than anything a result of the destructive birth of Slaanesh than anything bar possibly the fall of the Emperor.
What Khaine did was weaponize a few Eldar and use them against their own race, very nearly destroying them and murdering Eldanesh in the process.

The three elder Chaos Powers existed long before the Fall - they achieved sentience during the Dark Ages. Whether or not they were first formed during the War in Heaven, they only achieved sentience after feeding off of Mankind. That would make them Human gods, albeit incomplete and hideously flawed ones (for the moment per one interpretation).

Tadashi wrote:
My point was that the Emperor wanted access to the Webway. And the Emperor's older, wiser, and more powerful than Eldrad. I suspect Eldrad met/fought the Emperor before He became Emperor, most likely foreseeing the old man's plans, but was either rebuffed, or IMO, had his ass handed to him. Either the old man let him live as an insult, or Eldrad escaped by pure luck.

So? My point is that Eldrad was right about the Horus Heresy and the Emperor was wrong. Just because the Emperor thinks something is a good idea doesn't make it so.

Oh, I see your point. True, before anything, the Emperor's going to have fix the Administratum first of all. The current Administratum is far from the efficient bureaucracy organized and led by Malcador the Sigillite.

The inefficiency is just as much due to the sheer size of the Imperium as much as anything else. You could cut down on a lot of the bereaucratic red-tape (which is a big reason why the Inquisition is so effective), but it is impossible to completely solve the issue,

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
My point was that the Emperor wanted access to the Webway. And the Emperor's older, wiser, and more powerful than Eldrad. I suspect Eldrad met/fought the Emperor before He became Emperor, most likely foreseeing the old man's plans, but was either rebuffed, or IMO, had his ass handed to him. Either the old man let him live as an insult, or Eldrad escaped by pure luck.

So? My point is that Eldrad was right about the Horus Heresy and the Emperor was wrong. Just because the Emperor thinks something is a good idea doesn't make it so.

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Oh, I see your point. True, before anything, the Emperor's going to have fix the Administratum first of all. The current Administratum is far from the efficient bureaucracy organized and led by Malcador the Sigillite.

The inefficiency is just as much due to the sheer size of the Imperium as much as anything else. You could cut down on a lot of the bereaucratic red-tape (which is a big reason why the Inquisition is so effective), but it is impossible to completely solve the issue,

Tadashi wrote:

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or he will simply end up as chewtoy for the various denizens of the warp. The Emprah reborn/ emprah becomes a god speculation is nothing but pure, well, speculation.

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or he will simply end up as chewtoy for the various denizens of the warp. The Emprah reborn/ emprah becomes a god speculation is nothing but pure, well, speculation.

As if . With a Reborn Emperor/Emperor Ascendant 40k's story can continue. Dead Emperor means no more Imperium, and no more cash for GW. Probability of pigs flying = GW letting the Emperor die.

Emperor + 2
Heretics + 0

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or he will simply end up as chewtoy for the various denizens of the warp. The Emprah reborn/ emprah becomes a god speculation is nothing but pure, well, speculation.

As if . With a Reborn Emperor/Emperor Ascendant 40k's story can continue. Dead Emperor means no more Imperium, and no more cash for GW. Probability of pigs flying = GW letting the Emperor die.

Emperor + 2
Heretics + 0

Aw, you should know better. We could all become a thousand years old and GW would still have the Emprah sit on his "slowly malfunctioning" golden throne.
Hivefleets come and go, Black Crusades ravage entire sectors and retreat back into the eye of terror, ancient evils awaken and go back to slumber and the emprah will still sit on his golden toilet seat, forever cursed to be nearly but not yet quite dead. This is one of the two eternal truths of GW. The other is that sisters will probably never get new miniatures :(

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or he will simply end up as chewtoy for the various denizens of the warp. The Emprah reborn/ emprah becomes a god speculation is nothing but pure, well, speculation.

As if . With a Reborn Emperor/Emperor Ascendant 40k's story can continue. Dead Emperor means no more Imperium, and no more cash for GW. Probability of pigs flying = GW letting the Emperor die.

Emperor + 2
Heretics + 0

Aw, you should know better. We could all become a thousand years old and GW would still have the Emprah sit on his "slowly malfunctioning" golden throne.
Hivefleets come and go, Black Crusades ravage entire sectors and retreat back into the eye of terror, ancient evils awaken and go back to slumber and the emprah will still sit on his golden toilet seat, forever cursed to be nearly but not yet quite dead. This is one of the two eternal truths of GW. The other is that sisters will probably never get new miniatures :(

An acceptable truth, since Humans are still dominant.

And in any case, what do you think fanfics and role playing are for? Me and what few 40k fans I know over here are role-playing in a post-ascension scenario, where thanks to the Emperor's ascension Mankind has Five Gods manifesting directly and with Daemon Princes/Archangels leading former Imperial/former Chaos forces under the common banner of the Holy Empire across the galaxy.

Tadashi wrote:
And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or the Emperor will die or continue to remain in that state of undeath. The Star Child theory is just that, a wishful theory.

The Webway should solve that problem.

It would help, but it would never negate the issue entirely.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
And the Emperor will either be reborn or will become a god, while Eldrad will be spending eternity in bliss/torment at the hands of Slaanesh.

Emperor +1
Eldrad + 0

Or the Emperor will die or continue to remain in that state of undeath. The Star Child theory is just that, a wishful theory.

See above posts.

The Webway should solve that problem.

It would help, but it would never negate the issue entirely.

True, but at least it should be as efficient as back when Malcador ran the Administratum. And has anyone noticed: the Emperor and Malcador, King Arthur and Merlin? Just when did those two meet? There's a good chance the Emperor was King Arthur in Terra's distant past, and Malcador seems to have been with the Emperor since the founding of the Imperium.

Tadashi wrote:
See above posts.

?

Either the Emperor will be reincarnated/resurrected when he truly dies or he will stay dead. We simply don't know.

True, but at least it should be as efficient as back when Malcador ran the Administratum.

Unlikely, in an Empire spanning over a million worlds, many of which the Imperium is not even entirely sure still exist, there's only so much one man can do to tackle the problem of bureaucracy.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
See above posts.

?

Either the Emperor will be reincarnated/resurrected when he truly dies or he will stay dead. We simply don't know.

True, but at least it should be as efficient as back when Malcador ran the Administratum.

Unlikely, in an Empire spanning over a million worlds, many of which the Imperium is not even entirely sure still exist, there's only so much one man can do to tackle the problem of bureaucracy.

This is true, unless there are about 1,000 Malcadors running around not much will change.

Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

When you think of it, it may actually have a decent amount of efficiency to it in parts considering the length of time it could take to ship out supplies and troops. That and warp travel does not have a consistent time to distance ratio so could be pretty annoying to regulate. Hence why some troops are deployed to battles that were over a fair while ago, likely supplies do the same and get turned around to get shipped out to whatever next happens to be on the list.

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

Even the Eldar have less than perfect knowledge or even control of the webway. Large sections are no longer secure while other passages were forgotten.
Having access to the webway is therefore in no way a guarantee for reliable and quick travel, even less so for a species which has no knowledge whatsoever about the
Eldar webway.

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

Even the Eldar have less than perfect knowledge or even control of the webway. Large sections are no longer secure while other passages were forgotten.
Having access to the webway is therefore in no way a guarantee for reliable and quick travel, even less so for a species which has no knowledge whatsoever about the
Eldar webway.

The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

Alexzandvar wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
See above posts.

?

Either the Emperor will be reincarnated/resurrected when he truly dies or he will stay dead. We simply don't know.

True, but at least it should be as efficient as back when Malcador ran the Administratum.

Unlikely, in an Empire spanning over a million worlds, many of which the Imperium is not even entirely sure still exist, there's only so much one man can do to tackle the problem of bureaucracy.

This is true, unless there are about 1,000 Malcadors running around not much will change.

Malcador was a pimp at running things. The Emperor just sat on the throne, Malcador ran the administratum while still having time to form the Grey Knights, Inquisition, Officio Assassinorum, and take a seat at the golden throne, the first two things taking place during the heresy IIRC.

Tadashi wrote:
The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

But the Eldar saw the Horus Heresy coming while the Emperor was completely blindsided. You don't seem to have much evidence to back up that statement of yours.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

But the Eldar saw the Horus Heresy coming while the Emperor was completely blindsided. You don't seem to have much evidence to back up that statement of yours.

The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either. Not only that, even though they saw the Heresy coming, their methods to warn the Imperium only made it worse. In the case of the Cabal, completely misguided. Under no circumstances would the Emperor have wanted Chaos destroyed at the expense of Mankind's destruction. And who's to say the Emperor didn't actually plan/intend for the Heresy and its aftermath?

He's smarter and more powerful than the Eldar combined. He's the only person the Chaos Powers truly fear, or, if the implications are true, is the most powerful warp god in the making.

The Emperor +4
Heretics and Xenos +0

Tadashi wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

By the time anyone realized the kind of ramifications the Eldar's descent into depravity it was too late. They did the only thing they could, making the Craftworlds and saving what they could of their race in the process. It's a damn site better than getting stabbed in the face by your favourite son.

Not only that, even though they saw the Heresy coming, their methods to warn the Imperium only made it worse. In the case of the Cabal, completely misguided. Under no circumstances would the Emperor have wanted Chaos destroyed at the expense of Mankind's destruction. And who's to say the Emperor didn't actually plan/intend for the Heresy and its aftermath?

Probably himself, seeing as he struggled as hard as he could against it and tried to end it before it spread too far (unless you're saying the Emperor was in on the Istvaan massacre as well). That and the Imperium has turned into a tyrannical, religious nightmare and is a far cry from the Emperor's dream for humanity. If the Emperor planned for the Horus Heresy to occur (especially with the Crusade going so well) then he was pants-on-head slowed.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:


Probably himself, seeing as he struggled as hard as he could against it and tried to end it before it spread too far (unless you're saying the Emperor was in on the Istvaan massacre as well). That and the Imperium has turned into a tyrannical, religious nightmare and is a far cry from the Emperor's dream for humanity. If the Emperor planned for the Horus Heresy to occur (especially with the Crusade going so well) then he was pants-on-head slowed.

Not the Heresy itself, but He certainly planned ahead once it was well on its way. All those sacrifices to keep the Throne running sound a lot like how He was born, and the fact remains: the Imperium endures. After all, if He's reborn/ascends, He can just start over. In the end, what mattered to the Emperor was Mankind survives and continues to pursue its manifest destiny. Everything that was done since the Heresy is simply necessity, including throwing the Imperium's ideals into the flames, all for the sake of the future.

The Emperor +5
Heretics and Xenos +0

Which doesn't change the fact that the Emperor did indeed feth up.

Exactly what are you driving at here? That the Emperor is more cunning than the entire Eldar race combined? Because he's clearly not.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Which doesn't change the fact that the Emperor did indeed feth up.

And like all Humans, He continues to defy fate and will triumph in the end.

Exactly what are you driving at here? That the Emperor is more cunning than the entire Eldar race combined? Because he's clearly not.

Of course He is. Otherwise, the Four Powers would have focused on the Eldar first and the Emperor second. Note, that the Four Powers did not actively pursue the Craftworlds even though the Eldar were in position to stop a concerted effort by Chaos to destroy them after the Fall, but when the Emperor began to build His empire, the Powers united against Him.

The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Are you really winning this argument 6-0? I sense some bias views coming from you, I wonder why...

Anyway, my answer to the OP Question is pretty much what everyone else has said: they just ignore each other. Yes, they could wage a full on war and one race could potentially wipe out the other but the winner would, as has been said, just get finished off by Orks or whatever. They're very distrusting of each other, but are willing to put aside their differences. And although the Eldar are "willing to sacrifice a million human lives to save one eldar life" this doesn't mean Eldar actively go out and attack the Imperium but rather that they're more than willing to 'deflect' an attack that would be on them onto the Imperium, and feel no remorse, like Armegaddon (have I spelt that right?) which was mentioned previouslty as well.

The Shadow wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Are you really winning this argument 6-0? I sense some bias views coming from you, I wonder why...

Because I'm an Imperial, duh.

Like the Emperor and the Imperium, I persevere despite the seeming despair, and somehow come out on top at the end.

Anyway, my answer to the OP Question is pretty much what everyone else has said: they just ignore each other. Yes, they could wage a full on war and one race could potentially wipe out the other but the winner would, as has been said, just get finished off by Orks or whatever. They're very distrusting of each other, but are willing to put aside their differences. And although the Eldar are "willing to sacrifice a million human lives to save one eldar life" this doesn't mean Eldar actively go out and attack the Imperium but rather that they're more than willing to 'deflect' an attack that would be on them onto the Imperium, and feel no remorse, like Armegaddon (have I spelt that right?) which was mentioned previouslty as well.

Well, it's not like they have the numbers to go looking for trouble.

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

Even the Eldar have less than perfect knowledge or even control of the webway. Large sections are no longer secure while other passages were forgotten.
Having access to the webway is therefore in no way a guarantee for reliable and quick travel, even less so for a species which has no knowledge whatsoever about the
Eldar webway.

The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

The Emperor doesn't have the knowledge. 2-1
Even if the Emperor would be able to get the knowledge, he'd have to gain it in the first place. 2-2
The Eldar made the Webways in the first place. 2-3
The Eldar have a God in the Webways who wouldn't like competition. 2-4
The Eldar, unlike the primitive chimpanzee psychers, are able to create ad-hoc pathways without the help of an Emperor. 2-5
...who was unable to forsee treachery among his own children. 2-6
...and is now held in eternal stasis by his own people. 2-7
...whom do not let him either be reborn or be transformed into a god 2-8
...all the while Eldrad did forsee this. 2-9
...and tried to warn the Emperor. 2-10
...but didn't know enough and warned the wrong children. 2-10-1
And now Eldrad's fate is unknown. 2-10-2
Unless Eldrad's soul stone can be retrieved he'll be a feast for Slaanesh. 2-10-3
But if it can be retrieved, Eldrad may very well be subsumed into a deity of proportions far exceeding the chaos gods combined. 2-11-3
...which is incidentally more powerful the the god the Emperor would be. 2-12-3

Isn't it amazing how many points you can rack in if the one dealing out the points is also one of the guys arguing. I think this thread has run it's course and degenerated into flamebaiting.

Mahtamori wrote:
The Eldar made the Webways in the first place. 2-3

No.

Their mentors.

Mahtamori wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Bureaucracy is something that cannot be avoided.

...that's exactly what I've been saying.

Right, and at the very least, it should be less obstructive than it is now after the Emperor overhauls it and near-instantaneous FTL is achieved through the Webway.

Even the Eldar have less than perfect knowledge or even control of the webway. Large sections are no longer secure while other passages were forgotten.
Having access to the webway is therefore in no way a guarantee for reliable and quick travel, even less so for a species which has no knowledge whatsoever about the
Eldar webway.

The Emperor is smarter and more powerful than all the Eldar combined. If anyone can do it, He can.

The Emperor +3
Heretics +0

The Emperor doesn't have the knowledge. 2-1

He did, He just didn't have the technology to replicate the Webway's construction materials, but would have gotten it sooner rather than later since the Mechanicus was actually innovating at the time. 3-0

Even if the Emperor would be able to get the knowledge, he'd have to gain it in the first place. 2-2

See above.

The Eldar made the Webways in the first place. 2-3

They've lost that knowledge, and it was never theirs in the first place being given to them by the Old Ones, and the Emperor would have cracked the secret due to innovation and creativity under the Imperial Truth. 4-0

The Eldar have a God in the Webways who wouldn't like competition. 2-4

Who can barely confront the Chaos Powers. The Emperor's been keeping them back for ten thousand years, and probably long before then. 5-0

The Eldar, unlike the primitive chimpanzee psychers, are able to create ad-hoc pathways without the help of an Emperor. 2-5

I will concede the point. 5-1

...who was unable to forsee treachery among his own children. 2-6

Only half of them, but I will concede again. 5-2

...and is now held in eternal stasis by his own people. 2-7

There is no choice, and it was on His orders in the first place that He be placed on the Throne. So, compromise. No points. 5-2

...whom do not let him either be reborn or be transformed into a god 2-8

The Illuminati and their goals, as well as the Star Child are known to the Emperor. And the Illuminati include many influential and powerful members of the Inquisition. It'll be difficult, but not impossible. And even if it were, Humans are known for making the impossible possible. 6-2

...all the while Eldrad did forsee this. 2-9
...and tried to warn the Emperor. 2-10
...but didn't know enough and warned the wrong children. 2-10-1

6-2, no points since both sides failed in this section.

And now Eldrad's fate is unknown. 2-10-2

Variable, so no points again. 6-2

Unless Eldrad's soul stone can be retrieved he'll be a feast for Slaanesh. 2-10-3

Also variable, so no points again. 6-2

But if it can be retrieved, Eldrad may very well be subsumed into a deity of proportions far exceeding the chaos gods combined. 2-11-3
...which is incidentally more powerful the the god the Emperor would be. 2-12-3

Ynnead has no guarantee of defeating all four Powers, only Slaanesh, whereas the Emperor is seen as a threat by all four. And even Slaanesh is no guarantee for Ynnead, considering that Slaanesh now draws power from the Humans as well. Humans may be lacking in power and potency compared to Eldar, but instability both in psyche and soul makes them more dangerous in the Warp. The elder three Powers attained sentience by feeding of Mankind's darkness during the Dark Ages, assuming they came into existence during the War in Heaven. Their power level was such that the Eldar Gods couldn't confront them, and even Slaanesh after the Fall after consuming most of the Eldar Gods, couldn't defeat either Khorne or Nurgle. And this was before he/she/it fed off of Mankind, so Slaanesh had yet to became a Power of Chaos. So, 7-2.

Tadashi wrote:

The Shadow wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Are you really winning this argument 6-0? I sense some bias views coming from you, I wonder why...

Because I'm an Imperial, duh.

Like the Emperor and the Imperium, I persevere despite the seeming despair, and somehow come out on top at the end.

Last I checked the Imperium persevered through sheer guts and determination, not rigging a point system so that it looks like they're winning a poorly thought out argument.

Bad Imperial, bad!

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

The Shadow wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor +6
Heretics and Xenos +0

Are you really winning this argument 6-0? I sense some bias views coming from you, I wonder why...

Because I'm an Imperial, duh.

Like the Emperor and the Imperium, I persevere despite the seeming despair, and somehow come out on top at the end.

Last I checked the Imperium persevered through sheer guts and determination, not rigging a point system so that it looks like they're winning a poorly thought out argument.

Whatever works...

Bad Imperial, bad!

lol

To be fair Tadashi, Eldar Gods did not fear the three Chaos gods at all. Nowhere in the fluff does it say they even gave them a second glance. The only chaos god the Eldar gods ever feared was the one made of departing Eldar Spirits...Slaanesh.....One created by the Eldar themselves.

As to the OP's question...All Eldar hate and make war on the Imperium. Some Craftworlds do it openly, some do it through subtlety.

Biel-Tan wages a war of Genocide against them wherever they find them...and against everyone else too.

Saim-Hann wages war on the imperium through raiding and swift jetbike attacks.

Ulthwe does it through seeing into the future and manipulating them through time to war against others.

Alaitoc is actively engaged in an ongoing open war called the Beelze conflict. They use hit and run tactics against the Imperium because they don't have the numbers to go against the Imperial Guard.

Iyanden tries to avoid the Imperium where they can because of how badly they were depleted from the Tyranid invasion of their craftworld. This attack by Tyranids inadverdently saved some Imperial Worlds from falling to the Tyranids by having them attack Iyanden instead. And Prince Yriel being able to defeat the Tyranid fleet saved quite a few Imperial Lives. However, it was not by choice.

The Eldar feign alliances with the Imperium all the time to use the Imperials greater numbers to destroy large armies like Orks. Then the Eldar go in and mop up whoever is left from both sides.

The Eldar race as a whole does not side with the Imperium for real...only long enough to manipulate them somehow. They hate all humans.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:To be fair Tadashi, Eldar Gods did not fear the three Chaos gods at all. Nowhere in the fluff does it say they even gave them a second glance. The only chaos god the Eldar gods ever feared was the one made of departing Eldar Spirits...Slaanesh.....One created by the Eldar themselves.

You're my point. If the Eldar Gods were really that powerful, they would have confronted and destroyed the Chaos Powers because of the threat they posed. But they didn't. It wouldn't make sense for the warlike Khaine to just ignore Khorne because it was beneath him. No, they didn't confront them because they didn't want to. They may have been equal, which I doubt, or, just like the Elder Gods of Lovecraft (who chained the Great Old Ones but could not destroy them) from which they are partly based, they just restrained them but could never really destroy them.

The greatest proof is Khaine. Even if Slaanesh had feasted on the other Eldar Gods, if Khaine was truly powerful enough to ignore the Chaos Powers, he should have been able to defeat Slaanesh easily. But he couldn't, and was immediately torn apart by Khorne and Slaanesh fighting over his defeated form.

Tadashi wrote:

True Humans have never fought the Necron Empire at it's height, but I would disagree on the gods part. The Humans' own gods are waging a war on them. I am of the opinion that, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, and, following millennia of feeding off of Mankind as well, Slaanesh (to a lesser degree as well), represent the negative aspects of Mankind. The Emperor represents the positive aspect. Until the Emperor truly 'ascends' and purifies Chaos, this war will continue. .

Lol the Emperor God of Purity? Have you noticed all the horrors and degenerateness of the Imperium? If he ascends to the Warp as anything, it will be as God of Fascism...

That's where your mistaken Tadashi. As the fluff states, the ONLY reason Slaanesh could defeat Khaine was because he had grown more powerful than any of the chaos gods because he feasted on the emotions and literal souls of almost the entire Eldar race. That made Slaanesh more powerful than Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Gork, Mork, or any other god in the Warp in that moment in time.

Khorne couldn't have defeated Slaanesh at that moment any more than Khaine could have.

But at least Khaine tried. And He was still so powerful that he tired out Slaanesh to the point that Slaanesh could not kill him like he had the other Eldar gods. Instead, all he could do was splinter him into many pieces and exile him from the Warp.

To survive the wrath of a Chaos God so totally bloated with power as Slaanesh was at the time of the fall takes incredible, almost unimaginable levels of power. Power that the other Chaos Gods were never strong enough to defeat.

Nurgle couldn't have done it, Tzeentch couldn't have done it. Neither could Gork, Mork, the Emperor, or even Khorne.

The only one who could was Slaanesh on Eldar steroids. The other chaos gods had to wait until Khaine was tired from battling such a powerful creature before even attempting to battle Khaine.

And when they did they STILL couldn't kill him. All they could do was fracture him and send him into the material universe. That's some serious power there!

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia


and also Eldrad Ultran has managed to divert some very dangerous things from craftworlds. The imperium when they came across the tyranids, planet after planet got swallowed up before proper action was taken, yes lyanden got hit and many maiden and exodite worlds have been swallowed up but most craftworlds manage to avert disaster through the seers. I doubt the 'emprah' diverts disasters, in fact I doubt he does anything and is more of an image to help keep the imperium going. leaving the Inquisition to run the imperium of man.

And in terms of gods the eldar (perhaps being one of the most powerful races apart from necrons and the old ones) managed to create a god in their own image now the fact that the eldar gods don't destroy the chaos gods shows that they either did not know they existed or were so inferior that they were no threat, the fall and slaanesh was something that no one saw coming until it is too late and it wasen't until slaanesh feed upon the power of the countless eldar and the rest of the gods that he/she and khaine did battle bearing in mind slaanesh had consumed the most powerful of all gods Asuryan, and then still wasen't powerful enough to defeat khaine.

And if the chaos gods are as powerful as you suggest and eldar ones aren't as powerful, surely the choatic gods would have fought with the eldar ones.

emphan34 wrote:
And in terms of gods the eldar (perhaps being one of the most powerful races apart from necrons and the old ones) managed to create a god in their own image now the fact that the eldar gods don't destroy the chaos gods shows that they either did not know they existed or were so inferior that they were no threat, the fall and slaanesh was something that no one saw coming until it is too late and it wasen't until slaanesh feed upon the power of the countless eldar and the rest of the gods that he/she and khaine did battle bearing in mind slaanesh had consumed the most powerful of all gods Asuryan, and then still wasen't powerful enough to defeat khaine.

I'm pretty sure the Realm of Chaos source books imply that the original three Chaos Powers are Human Gods. They may or may not have originally come into existence during the War in Heaven, but only achieved form, sentience, and power because of the Human race. The Eldar might have created more gods in their image, but the Humans did it too. However, if we're going to argue based on that, we're wasting our time, since the Orks' gods - Gork and Mork - are and always will be the mightiest in the Warp. But no, I don't think that the Eldar Gods did not know about or were more powerful than the Powers of Chaos. Most likely, they were more or less equal, in same cases stronger, in others weaker, to the point they left each other alone, at least until the Fall.

And if the chaos gods are as powerful as you suggest and eldar ones aren't as powerful, surely the choatic gods would have fought with the eldar ones.

They might have, but see above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:That's where your mistaken Tadashi. As the fluff states, the ONLY reason Slaanesh could defeat Khaine was because he had grown more powerful than any of the chaos gods because he feasted on the emotions and literal souls of almost the entire Eldar race. That made Slaanesh more powerful than Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Gork, Mork, or any other god in the Warp in that moment in time.

Khorne couldn't have defeated Slaanesh at that moment any more than Khaine could have.

But at least Khaine tried. And He was still so powerful that he tired out Slaanesh to the point that Slaanesh could not kill him like he had the other Eldar gods. Instead, all he could do was splinter him into many pieces and exile him from the Warp.

To survive the wrath of a Chaos God so totally bloated with power as Slaanesh was at the time of the fall takes incredible, almost unimaginable levels of power. Power that the other Chaos Gods were never strong enough to defeat.

Nurgle couldn't have done it, Tzeentch couldn't have done it. Neither could Gork, Mork, the Emperor, or even Khorne.

The only one who could was Slaanesh on Eldar steroids. The other chaos gods had to wait until Khaine was tired from battling such a powerful creature before even attempting to battle Khaine.

And when they did they STILL couldn't kill him. All they could do was fracture him and send him into the material universe. That's some serious power there!

You're wrong about a couple of things. First of all, Khaine was confronted, defeated, and dominated by Slaanesh, only for Khorne to claim Khaine as his prize. Slaanesh fought Khorne, but was unable to defeat the Power, and in the process Khaine was driven out of the Warp and broken to pieces. The point of this is Slaanesh defeated and controlled Khaine, implying he/she/it wasn't exhausted by the battle, and Slaanesh was still defeated by Khorne.

Second, Gork and Mork are mightier than any other being in the Warp. They cannot be truly defeated. EVER.

Finally, I have a quote from Path of the Warrior: "The Prince of Pleasure and the Lord of Skulls fought over possession of Khaine's spirit, for the Bloody-Handed God was a child of both but belonged to neither."

Child of Both: Khorne draws his power from violence, and the violence unleashed by the Eldar at Khaine's behest strengthened Khorne, so Khaine is not so powerful to be exempt from Khorne's power. As for his connection to Slaanesh, technically, Slaanesh should have formed around the same time as the other Powers of Chaos, but somehow unlike the other three, failed to draw enough power from the Humans and achieve form and sentience in the process. How this makes him/her/it superior to Khaine is above me though.

Belonged to Neither: Since Khorne achieved form and sentience through the Human race, while feeding off Khaine's violence, could not truly claim Khaine as his own since Khorne was a Human deity. And like Slaanesh, Khaine was born of the Eldar's thoughts but in an opposite manner to Slaanesh, so he/she/it could not truly claim Khaine either.

emphan34 wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia

That would be Tadashi speaking.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

emphan34 wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia

That would be Tadashi speaking.

Why in the name of all that's good and holy should I listen to Eldar when said action/words only benefit Eldar? It's like asking me to commit treason against my country so another country can take advantage.

Oh, I see. you're drawing your conlusions from an alternate reality. None of that happened in the main reality of 40k...in other words, the codexes and main game fluff.

All of the things you read from Black Library are meant to give you a feel for the 40k universe and are and are not 100% canon at the same time. So you and I and everyone else can choose to believe it is canon or choose not to. However, While GW policy is that way for Black Library books, it is not that way for Codexes.

Now before you go off on a rant as to why I should believe a codex is more canon than a black library book lets give you the reason. First, the codexes came first. Long before the Black Library was even around, they developed the fluff for how Khaine and Slaanesh fought (Khorne wasn't involved at all) and gave the entire reason as to the fall of the Eldar. It was and is printed in many books that I own from back then. Therefore, to me it will always be more canon than any black library book.

Also, since the current codexes have not changed that fluff even one bit, to me they are still canon. The only change came when the Black library started publishing books. And in the process of writing those books, I've seen GW and the authors say you can take it as canon or not. I choose not to because it contradicts the codexes and stories from GW's games like 40k, and Epic Space Marine.

Now, the second reason is because sometimes that fluff actually translates over to game mechanics and therefor is important. To give an example, the fluff states what Khaine is made from. Thus he cannot be harmed by what he is made from. I.E. flames and heat weapons like Melta guns cannot harm him.

There are other examples but I think you get the idea.

Anyway, I cannot continue this discussion sensibly with you because you choose to believe the alternate fluff rather than the standard fluff given in the game books. You know, the fluff as it's been from the start.

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

emphan34 wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia

That would be Tadashi speaking.

Why in the name of all that's good and holy should I listen to Eldar when said action/words only benefit Eldar? It's like asking me to commit treason against my country so another country can take advantage.

No, it's more like nation A telling nation B what to do with nation B unable to see the consequences of this action while nation A can. It all depends on the desirable outcome for nation A whether it is wise or not for nation B to comply.

It isn't treason to follow the advice of an Eldar (well, not always) nor is it stupid (well, sometimes it is), but without treating it with due suspicion would simply make the rest of the universe go Darwinian on you. Often an Eldar's advice is ultimately to the benefit of all, humans and Eldar both, but sometimes it is directly ethnocentric. Sometimes it might also be highly dubious, such as when an Eldar craftworld is hellbent on exterminating the life on a certain planet because if not the planet will succumb to chaos and spread it's influence across the sector - but the Imperial administration in the sector has no idea about this since the traces of chaos has not yet become apparent.

Although in my example above, Eldar usually slip a few words to the Inquisition and let them deal with it.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Oh, I see. you're drawing your conlusions from an alternate reality. None of that happened in the main reality of 40k...in other words, the codexes and main game fluff.

No, the fluff about Khaine being assaulted, defeated, and dominated by Slaanesh, along with the fluff about being broken into pieces when Khorne challenged Slaanesh, was from Codex: Chaos Daemons. And the fluff about the elder Powers being Human Gods comes from the Realm of Chaos source books, is the basis for Chaos 3rd and 4th Editions. And it stated outright in Codex: Orks that Gork and Mork are undefeatable. So only the last part of my post was from BL.

Mahtamori wrote:

It isn't treason to follow the advice of an Eldar (well, not always) nor is it stupid (well, sometimes it is), but without treating it with due suspicion would simply make the rest of the universe go Darwinian on you. Often an Eldar's advice is ultimately to the benefit of all, humans and Eldar both, but sometimes it is directly ethnocentric. Sometimes it might also be highly dubious, such as when an Eldar craftworld is hellbent on exterminating the life on a certain planet because if not the planet will succumb to chaos and spread it's influence across the sector - but the Imperial administration in the sector has no idea about this since the traces of chaos has not yet become apparent.

In some cases, yes, but despite those cases, most of the Eldar's actions have given the Imperium (and let's face it, even without the Imperium, all Humans) small reason to trust the Eldar.

Tadashi wrote:
Why in the name of all that's good and holy should I listen to Eldar when said action/words only benefit Eldar? It's like asking me to commit treason against my country so another country can take advantage.

No. It would be like a known terrorist of a relatively minor militant cell (who is also known to have access to sensitive information) provided you with information that suggested one of your most trusted operatives was actually going assist a major terrorist organization in a major attack against your country.

You might take that information with a grain of salt as you investigated whether it might have any weight to it, but you wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Imperium of Man and Eldrad as the Eldar representative had peace talks at one point? And the reason the Eldar (or at the very least Ulthwe) and the Imperium of Man are not super buddies is because Eldrad sensed a daemonic sword influencing the space marine giving the peace talks and had the space marine peace talk party slaughtered WITHOUT TELLING THE IMPERIUM WHY?

Also, I'm sure somewhere in the galaxy far far away there is a forgotten craftworld who has learned humility from experience or hardship and has gotten off its haughty pedestal having a very trusting alliance with some forgotten sector in the Imperium of Man who has learned to accept any help they can if they are to survive all the nom noms out in the galaxy.

Since there was talks about the whole Khaine/Slannesh thing it made me curious. Since Slannesh didn't have enough strength to finish off Khaine and had him scattered across craftworld and maiden worlds instead (Source: 4ed Eldar Codex), why can't all the Eldar take the pieces of Khaine and put him back together with some kind of soulglue and have him dominate the galaxy? The four Chaos Gods can't get out into real space because the portals are too small to allow them access and the only thing stopping the reunited Khaine is probably an enormous Waaagh who think they can or Draigo. But then again, Khaine would probably be so pissed that the Eldar orgied a new God that he would probably kill the first anyway.

SkyHawk wrote:Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Imperium of Man and Eldrad as the Eldar representative had peace talks at one point? And the reason the Eldar (or at the very least Ulthwe) and the Imperium of Man are not super buddies is because Eldrad sensed a daemonic sword influencing the space marine giving the peace talks and had the space marine peace talk party slaughtered WITHOUT TELLING THE IMPERIUM WHY?

I don't know what that is from. Perhaps the Relictors? Though as far as I'm aware they never had much to do with the Eldar.

In any case, there IS no single representative of the Imperium or the Eldar. You might have an agreement between a Craftworld and a particular sector of the Imperium (perhaps a pact of non-aggression), but it would be impossible to organize anything else.

Tadashi wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:

It isn't treason to follow the advice of an Eldar (well, not always) nor is it stupid (well, sometimes it is), but without treating it with due suspicion would simply make the rest of the universe go Darwinian on you. Often an Eldar's advice is ultimately to the benefit of all, humans and Eldar both, but sometimes it is directly ethnocentric. Sometimes it might also be highly dubious, such as when an Eldar craftworld is hellbent on exterminating the life on a certain planet because if not the planet will succumb to chaos and spread it's influence across the sector - but the Imperial administration in the sector has no idea about this since the traces of chaos has not yet become apparent.

In some cases, yes, but despite those cases, most of the Eldar's actions have given the Imperium (and let's face it, even without the Imperium, all Humans) small reason to trust the Eldar.

Well, you can tell what view I'm trying to convey about Eldar, right? They are far from incompetent, nowhere near hippies, and in general have the best of the galaxy and the best of the Eldar race specifically. The Eldar are, however, utter arrogant bastards and the problem with them is that they're usually right. It's not nice to know that the argument "you never even asked" and the answer is "it would only have made things worse" and you'd know that they were right.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

I don't know what that is from. Perhaps the Relictors? Though as far as I'm aware they never had much to do with the Eldar.

Fulgrim


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mahtamori wrote:
Well, you can tell what view I'm trying to convey about Eldar, right? They are far from incompetent, nowhere near hippies, and in general have the best of the galaxy and the best of the Eldar race specifically. The Eldar are, however, utter arrogant bastards and the problem with them is that they're usually right. It's not nice to know that the argument "you never even asked" and the answer is "it would only have made things worse" and you'd know that they were right.

That's the point. Unless the Eldar get off their high horse, the Imperium's never going to trust them. And so the Eldar complaint that Humans refuse to listen is their own fault - you never give the Humans reason to trust you.

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

I don't know what that is from. Perhaps the Relictors? Though as far as I'm aware they never had much to do with the Eldar.

Fulgrim

Ah, then wouldn't the Eldar succeeding here have been the better conclusion? It's seems the Eldar know what's better for themselves and humanity than humanity does.

That's the point. Unless the Eldar get off their high horse, the Imperium's never going to trust them. And so the Eldar complaint that Humans refuse to listen is their own fault - you never give the Humans reason to trust you.

Right, it's the fault of the Eldar and not the xenophobic stance of the Imperium that's the problem here.

Because we all know how the Tau's open-handed, friendly approach put them on good terms with the Imperium.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

I don't know what that is from. Perhaps the Relictors? Though as far as I'm aware they never had much to do with the Eldar.

Fulgrim

Ah, then wouldn't the Eldar succeeding here have been the better conclusion? It's seems the Eldar know what's better for themselves and humanity than humanity does.

Oh sure...attack without warning in the middle of a peace conference. Real nice...I'll be sure to do that the next time I meet an Eldar before telling her why.

Tadashi wrote:
Oh sure...attack without warning in the middle of a peace conference. Real nice...I'll be sure to do that the next time I meet an Eldar before telling her why.

Think about it, would explaining the situation have helped the Eldar here? Not in the slightest.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Oh sure...attack without warning in the middle of a peace conference. Real nice...I'll be sure to do that the next time I meet an Eldar before telling her why.

Think about it, would explaining the situation have helped the Eldar here? Not in the slightest.

Yes it would. The Imperium might not have been superstitious at the time, but they acknowledged the existence of psychic power. Eldrad could have told Fulgrim that the sword was passively acting on him, but no, Eldrad had to go violent. And what happened? Fulgrim destroyed an Avatar, tore the soul out of a Wraithlord, the Emperor's Children butchered the Eldar, Eldrad was sent running back into the Webway. Not to mention every Maiden World in the sector being reduced to ashes. He should consider himself lucky that Fulgrim didn't take his legion and expedition and attack Ulthwe itself. And Fulgrim was close to Horus and Magnus. If other Craftworlds had intervened, the Sons of Horus and the Thousand Sons would have gotten involved. No Farseer could hope to match Magnus, and no Autarch could hope to match Horus. They got off lucky with that sector being burnt to ashes.

Tadashi wrote:

Yes it would. The Imperium might not have been superstitious at the time, but they acknowledged the existence of psychic power. Eldrad could have told Fulgrim that the sword was passively acting on him, but no, Eldrad had to go violent. And what happened? Fulgrim destroyed an Avatar, tore the soul out of a Wraithlord, the Emperor's Children butchered the Eldar, Eldrad was sent running back into the Webway. Not to mention every Maiden World in the sector being reduced to ashes. He should consider himself lucky that Fulgrim didn't take his legion and expedition and attack Ulthwe itself. And Fulgrim was close to Horus and Magnus. If other Craftworlds had intervened, the Sons of Horus and the Thousand Sons would have gotten involved. No Farseer could hope to match Magnus, and no Autarch could hope to match Horus. They got off lucky with that sector being burnt to ashes.

Your Imperium-Astartes-roxxors boner is becoming increasingly obvious.

If Eldrad, the most talented seer in the entire universe (yes he beats Magnus in that respect, if not in raw power) saw that his only chance was to attempt to kill Fulgrim, rather than warn him, then that must have been the most sensible decision to make. At that point the daemon sword had probably already made decent headway in corrupting Fulgrim. If he could have killed Fulgrim that alone may very well have stopped the Horus Heresy. If he tried to explain the situation to Fulgrim the outcome is nowhere near as certain.

I'm not saying that the decisions Eldrad would make are going to be the best for the Imperium (even if in this case they were), but they will always be in the best interests of the Eldar.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Yes it would. The Imperium might not have been superstitious at the time, but they acknowledged the existence of psychic power. Eldrad could have told Fulgrim that the sword was passively acting on him, but no, Eldrad had to go violent. And what happened? Fulgrim destroyed an Avatar, tore the soul out of a Wraithlord, the Emperor's Children butchered the Eldar, Eldrad was sent running back into the Webway. Not to mention every Maiden World in the sector being reduced to ashes. He should consider himself lucky that Fulgrim didn't take his legion and expedition and attack Ulthwe itself. And Fulgrim was close to Horus and Magnus. If other Craftworlds had intervened, the Sons of Horus and the Thousand Sons would have gotten involved. No Farseer could hope to match Magnus, and no Autarch could hope to match Horus. They got off lucky with that sector being burnt to ashes.

Your Imperium-Astartes-roxxors boner is becoming increasingly obvious.

If Eldrad, the most talented seer in the entire universe (yes he beats Magnus in that respect, if not in raw power) saw that his only chance was to attempt to kill Fulgrim, rather than warn him, then that must have been the most sensible decision to make. At that point the daemon sword had probably already made decent headway in corrupting Fulgrim. If he could have killed Fulgrim that alone may very well have stopped the Horus Heresy. If he tried to explain the situation to Fulgrim the outcome is nowhere near as certain.

I'm not saying that the decisions Eldrad would make are going to be the best for the Imperium (even if in this case they were), but they will always be in the best interests of the Eldar.

Most talented seer in the universe? That's a laugh.

If so, why did he not foresee that Fulgrim would wipe the floor using the Eldar? Or for that matter that Slaanesh was waiting for him in a Blackstone?

He did forsee that Slaanesh was waiting for him, but he went to do his duty anyway. And chaos has a way of messing with seers, including the Emprah.

Eldrad at the time of the Fulgrim incident was a youth. he did not have the power he gained as he grew older. It was in his older years where he became the greatest seer in the galaxy.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:He did forsee that Slaanesh was waiting for him, but he went to do his duty anyway. And chaos has a way of messing with seers, including the Emprah.

Eldrad at the time of the Fulgrim incident was a youth. he did not have the power he gained as he grew older. It was in his older years where he became the greatest seer in the galaxy.

The Emperor is still older and wiser than Eldrad. He won't make the same mistakes next time. Even if He failed to see or stop the Heresy, He made sure that the Imperium would continue to stand afterwards. For all your arrogance, Eldar Witch, it is us who rule the galaxy, and not you. Now, and forever. The Emperor has decreed it so.

"Make no mistake, the Eldar still wield sufficient power to seriously contest the right and proper expansion of the Emperor's servants to the goal of utter dominance of the galaxy."

From Inquisitor Czevak, Teaching on the Unholy

Haven't you learned yet? Eldrad knew the Emperor personally. And he knows the guy sitting on the Golden Throne isn't the real Emperor. That's why the Inquisition didn't wake him up when they had the chance....the REAL emperor is sitting in Trazyn's collection with a funny look on his face

Roadkill Zombie wrote:"Make no mistake, the Eldar still wield sufficient power to seriously contest the right and proper expansion of the Emperor's servants to the goal of utter dominance of the galaxy."

From Inquisitor Czevak, Teaching on the Unholy

We shall still be victorious in the end. Between the legendary Space Marines, the mighty Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy, the god-machines of the Titan Legions, and the ardent fervour of the Holy Sisters, who can stand against us in the end. No one can. The Emperor Protects.

Haven't you learned yet? Eldrad knew the Emperor personally. And he knows the guy sitting on the Golden Throne isn't the real Emperor. That's why the Inquisition didn't wake him up when they had the chance....the REAL emperor is sitting in Trazyn's collection with a funny look on his face

Obvious troll is obvious. Inquisitor Draco spoke to the Emperor on the Golden Throne. The Ordo Malleus Inner Circle has periodic audiences. The founders of the Holy Sisters spoke to Him. The man who imprisoned the Dragon of the Void cannot be defeated by a mere trans-xenos space egyptian.

Even a man who has nothing can still have faith. But then again, I suppose faith is a concept alien to a faithless Eldar Witch.

Why are we even still here?

It's been apparent that Tadashi has a huge bias for the Imperium, to the point where argument is pointless.

However, I will state this. If the Emperor truly is the Kung Fu Jesus Master Psyker Über Warlord that he is, then why was it that on Ullanor an Ork Warlord, a dirty, smelly, barely intelligent, brutish and simple Ork, was almost able to strangle and kill the Emperor. Surely, the all-mighty and unstoppable Super Emperor, with his beyond godly psychic powers and strength to subdue the Void Dragon, he could have popped the poor Ork's brain with a single thought.

Guess what? He couldn't. It took Horus, a lesser being, a Primarch, to save him. And even during the siege of Terra, the Emperor couldn't best his own son. Sure, he held back at first, but even when he re-doubled his efforts and realized Horus could not be saved he could only get a tie.

The Emperor is NOT smarter than the entire Eldar race. There is nothing to prove that, I don't care about personal opinion. Without irrefutable proof this claim has absolutely 0 substance.

Additionally, there is no absolute proof that the Emperor had total mastery of the Webway. If you accurately checked your sources, you'd be aware that the humans could not replicate the psychic resistant material which the Webway was created of (check Lexicanum, which lists its sources).

Cryonicleech wrote:Why are we even still here?

It's been apparent that Tadashi has a huge bias for the Imperium, to the point where argument is pointless.

However, I will state this. If the Emperor truly is the Kung Fu Jesus Master Psyker Über Warlord that he is, then why was it that on Ullanor an Ork Warlord, a dirty, smelly, barely intelligent, brutish and simple Ork, was almost able to strangle and kill the Emperor. Surely, the all-mighty and unstoppable Super Emperor, with his beyond godly psychic powers and strength to subdue the Void Dragon, he could have popped the poor Ork's brain with a single thought.

Guess what? He couldn't. It took Horus, a lesser being, a Primarch, to save him. And even during the siege of Terra, the Emperor couldn't best his own son. Sure, he held back at first, but even when he re-doubled his efforts and realized Horus could not be saved he could only get a tie.

Orks are beyond logic, plain and simple. And Horus was his son. Obviously they'd end up tying.

The Emperor is NOT smarter than the entire Eldar race. There is nothing to prove that, I don't care about personal opinion. Without irrefutable proof this claim has absolutely 0 substance.

The Chaos Powers all consider the Emperor as their greatest enemy. Only Slaanesh actually gives a damn about the Eldar.

Additionally, there is no absolute proof that the Emperor had total mastery of the Webway. If you accurately checked your sources, you'd be aware that the humans could not replicate the psychic resistant material which the Webway was created of (check Lexicanum, which lists its sources).

So he couldn't replicate it. Big deal. The difference was technological. They'd have cracked it eventually. Eldar can't even make new tunnels anymore - the Emperor and the Mechanicus were building one.

Tadashi wrote:

Orks are beyond logic, plain and simple. And Horus was his son. Obviously they'd end up tying.

So we're just supposed to chalk this one up to "Well, Orks. Whoops." ? Really? So it must have been some random, accidental slip on either the writer's part or the Emperor. I'm sure if it was ANY other adversary, say, a Tyranid, then sure, the Emperor would have shot him with mind bullets and killed him dead. And Horus being the Emperor's son has NOTHING to do with them tying. He wouldn't have tied with that Ork had no one come to save him, and it's obvious that the Ork was not as powerful as Horus.

Believe it or not, beings aren't simple classified in terms of "power levels" in which more powerful beings always defeat lesser beings. It's a simple fact. The Emperor is CLEARLY more powerful than Horus, why didn't he win? By the same vein, the Space Marine Primarchs were all CLEARLY superior to the majority of the Chaos Space Marines. Then why did Dorn die aboard a Chaos Vessel, filled with beings much lower than his perceived "power level"?

These offer proof that not only are both the Emperor and the Primarchs mortal, but also able to be beaten or nearly beaten by seemingly "unworthy" opponents.

Tadashi wrote:


The Chaos Powers all consider the Emperor as their greatest enemy. Only Slaanesh actually gives a damn about the Eldar.

So how does this make the Emperor "smarter" than the Eldar race combined? I'm not arguing that the Emperor wasn't the bigger threat, he obviously was. This doesn't have any bearing on his intelligence and doesn't negatively impact the Eldar race's intellect.

The Emperor was the major focus of the Chaos Gods ---> The Emperor is smarter than every Eldar.

Nice little jump to conclusion there, eh?

Tadashi wrote:


So he couldn't replicate it. Big deal. The difference was technological. They'd have cracked it eventually. Eldar can't even make new tunnels anymore - the Emperor and the Mechanicus were building one.

The Eldar can make new tunnels. Ask their perverted and dark cousins, who essentially created an entire city with passageways after the Fall. In fact, they often create NEW portals to the Webway (By using, gosh golly, Webway Portals) Additionally, I'm going to need a source on Craftworld Eldar no longer being able to create new portals. Without a source, we cannot guarantee the validity of the statement. The ONLY things I've found state that the Eldar are "Unaware of the state of the Webway". By "The State" it is meant that the Webway has changed since the Eldar once mapped the Webway, and they are unaware of the current status of every pathway mapped in the Webway. This statement does not flat out say "The Eldar cannot create new Webway portals/gates. In fact, in the Dawn of War series (which I understand is not entirely canon) The Eldar can actually create Webway gates, to teleport units to and fro.

Cryonicleech wrote:

These offer proof that not only are both the Emperor and the Primarchs mortal, but also able to be beaten or nearly beaten by seemingly "unworthy" opponents.

The Emperor is immortal. That is and always has been part of the fluff.

Tadashi wrote:


The Chaos Powers all consider the Emperor as their greatest enemy. Only Slaanesh actually gives a damn about the Eldar.

So how does this make the Emperor "smarter" than the Eldar race combined? I'm not arguing that the Emperor wasn't the bigger threat, he obviously was. This doesn't have any bearing on his intelligence and doesn't negatively impact the Eldar race's intellect.

The Emperor was the major focus of the Chaos Gods ---> The Emperor is smarter than every Eldar.

Nice little jump to conclusion there, eh?

So, since the Emperor understood the truth behind Chaos - its strengths and weaknesses, its lies and promises - something the Eldar did not (if they did, the Fall would never have happened), He's not smarter than they are? Not to mention Tzeentch focusing on someone for more than a fraction of warp time?

Tadashi wrote:


So he couldn't replicate it. Big deal. The difference was technological. They'd have cracked it eventually. Eldar can't even make new tunnels anymore - the Emperor and the Mechanicus were building one.

The Eldar can make new tunnels. Ask their perverted and dark cousins, who essentially created an entire city with passageways after the Fall. In fact, they often create NEW portals to the Webway (By using, gosh golly, Webway Portals) Additionally, I'm going to need a source on Craftworld Eldar no longer being able to create new portals. Without a source, we cannot guarantee the validity of the statement. The ONLY things I've found state that the Eldar are "Unaware of the state of the Webway". By "The State" it is meant that the Webway has changed since the Eldar once mapped the Webway, and they are unaware of the current status of every pathway mapped in the Webway. This statement does not flat out say "The Eldar cannot create new Webway portals/gates. In fact, in the Dawn of War series (which I understand is not entirely canon) The Eldar can actually create Webway gates, to teleport units to and fro.

The Emperor cannot both "die" and "be immortal"

He's dying right now, and GW has retconned the Sensei-Emperor out of existence. He's not reincarnating. Do you understand the concept of a theory? Theories aren't laws, they're not irrefutable facts. There's nothing that stops the Emperor from dying and not resurrecting. In fact, if the Emperor's so smart, why didn't he just off himself after "beating" Horus? Surely he'd know that he'd be reincarnated.

Where is it stated that the Emperor fully understood Chaos? He doesn't. If anything, The Emperor wasn't able to prevent Chaos from corrupting humanity, so your argument is void. In fact, Chaos royally screws him over just as well, and half of his sons betray him.

And Tzeentch's attention? REALLY? Wow, that must mean it's serious, because obviously Tzeentch never focuses on ANYthing. Tzeentch has been frightened before. He had to throw Kairos into the Well of Eternity because he was afraid that he wouldn't come out.

Why is the Imperium protective of a Forge World? They can make new ones.

The implications behind the statements you make are downright false. The Eldar protect the gates like the Imperium protects a Forge World, they are both absolutely vital and require a massive investment of resources. If the Imperium protects its Shrine and Forge Worlds so heavily, they must not be able to reproduce them.

And the Dark Eldar can and do make new Webway portals/entrances. There's no reason to believe the Craftworld Eldar can't either.

Cryonicleech wrote:The Emperor cannot both "die" and "be immortal"

He's dying right now, and GW has retconned the Sensei-Emperor out of existence. He's not reincarnating. Do you understand the concept of a theory? Theories aren't laws, they're not irrefutable facts. There's nothing that stops the Emperor from dying and not resurrecting. In fact, if the Emperor's so smart, why didn't he just off himself after "beating" Horus? Surely he'd know that he'd be reincarnated.

No, GW has not. I don't recall the concept going down the squats' way. And immortality means you don't die from natural causes. I never said the Emperor was invincible.

Where is it stated that the Emperor fully understood Chaos? He doesn't. If anything, The Emperor wasn't able to prevent Chaos from corrupting humanity, so your argument is void. In fact, Chaos royally screws him over just as well, and half of his sons betray him.

The Emperor's still Human. He understood all right, but He miscalculated.

And Tzeentch's attention? REALLY? Wow, that must mean it's serious, because obviously Tzeentch never focuses on ANYthing. Tzeentch has been frightened before. He had to throw Kairos into the Well of Eternity because he was afraid that he wouldn't come out.

Even then he was involved in the Great Game. All the Powers actually stopped the Game because of the threat the Emperor posed.

Why is the Imperium protective of a Forge World? They can make new ones.

The implications behind the statements you make are downright false. The Eldar protect the gates like the Imperium protects a Forge World, they are both absolutely vital and require a massive investment of resources. If the Imperium protects its Shrine and Forge Worlds so heavily, they must not be able to reproduce them.

Then why include '...remaining strands of Webway...' It implies the Webway is incomplete, and the Eldar cannot replace damaged/destroyed sections.

Cryonicleech wrote:The Emperor cannot both "die" and "be immortal"

He's dying right now, and GW has retconned the Sensei-Emperor out of existence. He's not reincarnating. Do you understand the concept of a theory? Theories aren't laws, they're not irrefutable facts

Theory is fact (This is backed up by evidence)

Theorising is not fact. (This is not backed up by evidence yet)

Obviously Tadashi simply can't admit that the Emperor could be outmatched in any sense by anyone ever (despite a lot of evidence to the contrary).

Bassline wrote:
Theory is fact (This is backed up by evidence)

A theory is not a fact. A theory can be sound (this is when it is backed up by evidence), but a theory is not a fact.

I cannot believe that I actually read all four pages. Anyway:

- The reason why the Emperor didn't see Horus Heresy coming is because he was to busy working on a webway project ( witch Magnus ruined at the end ) and because the Primarchs was his sons that he loved from the first to the last ( you never think that your own son will stab you with knife in the back and let you die ).

- For a race that is psychically gifted Eldar believe to much to their own prophecies. Most of them do not even happen or are false and often leave to deaths of lot of Eldar ( there are lot of evidence to the contrary in the fluff ). Not to mention that Eldrad, who is regarded for most powerful psyker among all Eldar, determined not to warn the Emperor himself but one of his sons who was already possessed by a daemon in the sword he required from a certain race he and his legion destroyed. First he didn't even sense that he was possessed ( even if he should be if he is the most powerful Eldar psyker ) and secondly after possessed Fulgrim destroy his bretheren Eldrad cursed all Humanity and concluded that Humans don't want to be saved at all

- The official state of GW regarding the Emperor are two theories: Star Child and Sensei. ( and as far to my knowledge nothing from the latest fluff retconed this two theories ). Will the Emperor be reborn or not one thing is certain: he will become a god like being after his soul is free from his body, maybe even on pair with Chaos Gods themselves ( he is after all gaining his strength trough prayers of his followers ). But nothing of that is certain as GW will never advance the plot, well maybe if they decide to finish 40k one day...

Now to answer the OP:
Eldar and Imperium don't see eye to eye many times but their both know that their cooperation is fundamental to both races. Even if they will fight most of the times some Craftworlds like Ulthwe and Biel-Tan are known to work together with the Imperium sometimes ( Eldar knows how to best deal with the threat while Imperium has solders to oppose that threats ). Imperial inquisition even have several contracts with some Eldar craftworlds on mutual support and cooperation ( Grey Knights and Blood Angels codexes ). But overall Humans don't trust the Eldar because Eldar were always stabbing knife in their backs and lying to them while Eldar despite Humans for being primitives that now rule the galaxy instead of them, jealousy is one tough emotion to deal with.

At the time of the Heresy Eldrad was not the most powerful seer. It wasn't until the present timeline that he became that powerful. He was a young seer back then and didn't have as good of psychic powers as he does in M41.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:At the time of the Heresy Eldrad was not the most powerful seer. It wasn't until the present timeline that he became that powerful. He was a young seer back then and didn't have as good of psychic powers as he does in M41.

Exactly. And as others have pointed out before in this thread, we have argued the whole thing over many times now in four pages, and it's really not going anywhere. Look at the thread of Eldrad vs. Magnus, Tadashi, immortality means you cannot die at all. What you're saying makes no sense.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:At the time of the Heresy Eldrad was not the most powerful seer. It wasn't until the present timeline that he became that powerful. He was a young seer back then and didn't have as good of psychic powers as he does in M41.

Exactly. And as others have pointed out before in this thread, we have argued the whole thing over many times now in four pages, and it's really not going anywhere. Look at the thread of Eldrad vs. Magnus, Tadashi, immortality means you cannot die at all. What you're saying makes no sense.

AGELESS then if you want to argue based on definitions. But Daemon Princes ARE immortal. Destroy their physical forms and they just reform. Phoenix Lord/Exarch armor or Spirit Stones? I aim a multi-melta and fire at point-blank range - say hello to Slaanesh.

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:At the time of the Heresy Eldrad was not the most powerful seer. It wasn't until the present timeline that he became that powerful. He was a young seer back then and didn't have as good of psychic powers as he does in M41.

Exactly. And as others have pointed out before in this thread, we have argued the whole thing over many times now in four pages, and it's really not going anywhere. Look at the thread of Eldrad vs. Magnus, Tadashi, immortality means you cannot die at all. What you're saying makes no sense.

AGELESS then if you want to argue based on definitions. But Daemon Princes ARE immortal. Destroy their physical forms and they just reform. Phoenix Lord/Exarch armor or Spirit Stones? I aim a multi-melta and fire at point-blank range - say hello to Slaanesh.

Ageless is fine. But Slaanesh doesn't get the Eldar souls if they have spirit stones. Unless the stones are collected and then sacrificed to slaanesh, the souls inside them are introduced into the Infinity Circuit. if they are needed again, they are placed into Wraithguard or Wraithlord bodies.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:At the time of the Heresy Eldrad was not the most powerful seer. It wasn't until the present timeline that he became that powerful. He was a young seer back then and didn't have as good of psychic powers as he does in M41.

Exactly. And as others have pointed out before in this thread, we have argued the whole thing over many times now in four pages, and it's really not going anywhere. Look at the thread of Eldrad vs. Magnus, Tadashi, immortality means you cannot die at all. What you're saying makes no sense.

AGELESS then if you want to argue based on definitions. But Daemon Princes ARE immortal. Destroy their physical forms and they just reform. Phoenix Lord/Exarch armor or Spirit Stones? I aim a multi-melta and fire at point-blank range - say hello to Slaanesh.

Ageless is fine. But Slaanesh doesn't get the Eldar souls if they have spirit stones. Unless the stones are collected and then sacrificed to slaanesh, the souls inside them are introduced into the Infinity Circuit. if they are needed again, they are placed into Wraithguard or Wraithlord bodies.

Hasn't anyone noticed a similarity between Eldar and Necrons? Necrons have necrodermis while Eldar have wraithbone, both of which have similar properties. The newcrons have shards, the Eldar have the Avatars, which are shards of their war god.

Yup, I recognized it a very long time ago. That's why I've never really liked the Necrons. I played this game before they existed. All of the stuff they now have used to be Eldar only.

I think it's tragic that GW took Eldar and diluted their main story arch by creating the Necrons and giving a lot of the stuff that used to be Eldar only to the necrons.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Yup, I recognized it a very long time ago. That's why I've never really liked the Necrons. I played this game before they existed. All of the stuff they now have used to be Eldar only.

I think it's tragic that GW took Eldar and diluted their main story arch by creating the Necrons and giving a lot of the stuff that used to be Eldar only to the necrons.

How about oldcrons? They didn't use the Webway, and back then the C'tan weren't shards. Of course they had necrodermis, but still...

Nah...Oldcrons did the same thing. The Eldar are the ones that had all the wierd pylons, monoliths, pyramids, portals, and other things and they also had the highest tech level of any race. Then along come the Necrons (Oldcrons) and Blammo!...all of that stuff no longer is from the Eldar, it's from the Necrons.....


Still don't like it. I would have preffered that the guys that write the fluff for these armies come up with something new and exciting without ripping off other races already long established story arch.

But rather than derailing this thread further I will leave it at that.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Nah...Oldcrons did the same thing. The Eldar are the ones that had all the wierd pylons, monoliths, pyramids, portals, and other things and they also had the highest tech level of any race. Then along come the Necrons (Oldcrons) and Blammo!...all of that stuff no longer is from the Eldar, it's from the Necrons.....

Except fluff-wise, Necrons came before the Eldar. Looks like the Old Ones took a leaf out of the Necrons and the Ctan's book by giving the Eldar access to Wraithbone (Necrodermis), the Webway (Inertia-less Drives), and psychic mastery (scientific and technological supremacy).

I think that's for another thread.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:I think that's for another thread.

And I have absolutely no idea it would be about. Old One-Necron arms race? I'll be the laughingstock of the whole forum.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:At the time of the Heresy Eldrad was not the most powerful seer. It wasn't until the present timeline that he became that powerful. He was a young seer back then and didn't have as good of psychic powers as he does in M41.

Exactly. And as others have pointed out before in this thread, we have argued the whole thing over many times now in four pages, and it's really not going anywhere. Look at the thread of Eldrad vs. Magnus, Tadashi, immortality means you cannot die at all. What you're saying makes no sense.

lol, i started that thread because of this one, kind of OT, but oh well

Imperium: Eldar are vile Xenos! Destroy them, unless an alliance is absolutely necessary!

Eldar: It varies.Some think they are so inferior that they must be wiped out. Others think that humans are foolish yet are so powerful that they are too dangerous to live. Others really don't care about humans.

Tadashi wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Nah...Oldcrons did the same thing. The Eldar are the ones that had all the wierd pylons, monoliths, pyramids, portals, and other things and they also had the highest tech level of any race. Then along come the Necrons (Oldcrons) and Blammo!...all of that stuff no longer is from the Eldar, it's from the Necrons.....

Except fluff-wise, Necrons came before the Eldar. Looks like the Old Ones took a leaf out of the Necrons and the Ctan's book by giving the Eldar access to Wraithbone (Necrodermis), the Webway (Inertia-less Drives), and psychic mastery (scientific and technological supremacy).

Though later in the current Daemon codex it gives credit to the Eldar for the creation of the Webway now... Unless that already changed again...
It seems they like to mess around with the background from then.

n0t_u wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Nah...Oldcrons did the same thing. The Eldar are the ones that had all the wierd pylons, monoliths, pyramids, portals, and other things and they also had the highest tech level of any race. Then along come the Necrons (Oldcrons) and Blammo!...all of that stuff no longer is from the Eldar, it's from the Necrons.....

Except fluff-wise, Necrons came before the Eldar. Looks like the Old Ones took a leaf out of the Necrons and the Ctan's book by giving the Eldar access to Wraithbone (Necrodermis), the Webway (Inertia-less Drives), and psychic mastery (scientific and technological supremacy).

Though later in the current Daemon codex it gives credit to the Eldar for the creation of the Webway now... Unless that already changed again...
It seems they like to mess around with the background from then.

I've always interpreted it as the Old Ones building the original Webway, but it was the Eldar who made it as it is now. As for the difference between the Eldar and Old One-versions, I have no idea. The Imperial version probably would have the Golden Throne as the master control.

Wait what? Where does it say the Old Ones made the webway? I always thought the Eldar made it? The old eldar before the fall quite naturally.

So did I. I've never come across any fluff that contradicts it.
I mean, come on people, give the eldar some acheivements of their own, willya?
They used to be this awesome mysterious race with the most advanced technology and psykers the galaxy has ever seen.
"The stars themselves once lived and died at our command."

Though now a shadow of their former glory, even these sad remnants of that once great empire still command technologies and powers far in advance of the Imperium's, or even Mankind at the height of the Golden Age of Technology...
At least, that's the way it used to be.

For no good reason, most of that has now been given to the Necrons (except the psychic powers), which IMO, is just stupid.

I thought they mentioned that in the current Eldar codex.

I think what Mr Roadkill Zombie mean to say is that Eldar had all the egyptianesque stuff until the Oldcrons came along and GW retconned a lot of stuff to accommodate for a new master-tech-race. That's just a guess, though.

Bran: get used to it. This forum has a lot of pro-Imperium posters (and I mean this to read "fanaticism" all over that statement), or at least some very loud ones, who simply can't give a balanced view, nor give credit where it is due.
The Eldar still have these technologies, it's just that they aren't reflected on the table top. Necrons didn't steal all of it, either, they just raised the bar.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Wait what? Where does it say the Old Ones made the webway? I always thought the Eldar made it? The old eldar before the fall quite naturally.

Codex: Dark Eldar 5th Edition p.8

Mahtamori wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

emphan34 wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Eldar saw the Fall coming, but never managed to avoid it either.

Now I tell you this try telling the most ignorant race of all to stop what it's been doing for millenia

That would be Tadashi speaking.

Why in the name of all that's good and holy should I listen to Eldar when said action/words only benefit Eldar? It's like asking me to commit treason against my country so another country can take advantage.

No, it's more like nation A telling nation B what to do with nation B unable to see the consequences of this action while nation A can. It all depends on the desirable outcome for nation A whether it is wise or not for nation B to comply.

It isn't treason to follow the advice of an Eldar (well, not always) nor is it stupid (well, sometimes it is), but without treating it with due suspicion would simply make the rest of the universe go Darwinian on you. Often an Eldar's advice is ultimately to the benefit of all, humans and Eldar both, but sometimes it is directly ethnocentric. Sometimes it might also be highly dubious, such as when an Eldar craftworld is hellbent on exterminating the life on a certain planet because if not the planet will succumb to chaos and spread it's influence across the sector - but the Imperial administration in the sector has no idea about this since the traces of chaos has not yet become apparent.

Although in my example above, Eldar usually slip a few words to the Inquisition and let them deal with it.

Well, when the Eldar manipulate the Imperium, it is usually the Eldar getting the Imperium to do something that is not directly detrimental to the Imperium but is a poor tactical decision that results in a benefit, but with unnecessary Human casualties and was not the most beneficial action in the long run.

The Eldar don't expect the Imperium to fall (except Biel-Tan, but they don't count) but if the Imperium did exactly what the Eldar wanted, all the time, it'd be quite detrimental, and would eventually result in the Eldar growing in power and the Imperium losing power so much that the Eldar would, quite possibly, reconquer the galaxy. Long story short, the Eldar will only manipulate Humans if it benefits them, but a benefit to the Eldar is often to the detriment of Mankind. A Human following Eldar advice would be conspiring with an enemy though, so in most cases, yes, it'd be treason.

The imperium isn't at the height of its power, either.

It's still clawing its way out of a 10,000 year dark age and has a ways to go before getting anywhere near the GAOT they once held.

chromedog wrote:The imperium isn't at the height of its power, either.

It's still clawing its way out of a 10,000 year dark age and has a ways to go before getting anywhere near the GAOT they once held.

More like falling deeper and deeper into the dark age as opposed to clawing its way out. The height of the Imperium was the Great Crusade: a god-like Human on the Throne, reason and scientific progress, superhuman legions led by demigod-like Humans, yeah, sooner or later had the Horus Heresy not broken out, the Imperium would have surpassed the Eldar Empire, seeing as the Imperium was on the verge of gaining access and perhaps complete control over the Webway as the first step to accelerated psychic evolution.

The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

The height of scientific and technological achievement, not power. Most of the worlds conquered during the Great Crusade were just that, new territory. The Great Crusade was the peak of mankind's military prowess, and a new beginning that could have led to a second Golden Age of Technology, but behind the gold and red banners of the empire, entire species were exterminated without mercy. No great loss, IMO.

chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

Back to the Imperium? I thought there never was any reference to what type of State or States the pre-DAOT had, and that the Imperium was born with the Emperor's declaration that all the stars were rightfully the domains of Man and Man alone?

Surely, there was no Imperium before the Emperor made himself known?

Kovnik Obama wrote:

chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

Back to the Imperium? I thought there never was any reference to what type of State or States the pre-DAOT had, and that the Imperium was born with the Emperor's declaration that all the stars were rightfully the domains of Man and Man alone?

Surely, there was no Imperium before the Emperor made himself known?

As I said, the Great Crusade was the peak of the Imperium and by extension, Mankind's power and expansion. The Golden Age of Technology was simply the peak of Human scientific and technological achievement. Yes, they explored the stars and settled new worlds, but it was only under the Imperium that Mankind came to rule over a million worlds.

Tadashi wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

Back to the Imperium? I thought there never was any reference to what type of State or States the pre-DAOT had, and that the Imperium was born with the Emperor's declaration that all the stars were rightfully the domains of Man and Man alone?

Surely, there was no Imperium before the Emperor made himself known?

As I said, the Great Crusade was the peak of the Imperium and by extension, Mankind's power and expansion. The Golden Age of Technology was simply the peak of Human scientific and technological achievement. Yes, they explored the stars and settled new worlds, but it was only under the Imperium that Mankind came to rule over a million worlds.

What I meant was that Chromedog implied the Imperium existed before the Emperor united Terra and launched what would become the Great Crusade, circa 30 000. I'm pretty sure that's always been refered to as the birth of the Imperium, not it's rebirth, and that whatever political entities there were in 20 000 wasn't an Imperium, or at least were never refered to as a single entity...?

Meaning that the Imperium was at it's peak very shortly after it's foundation, and only degraded ever since...

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

chromedog wrote:The height of its power was during the expansion that led mankind to the stars.

The great crusade was to bring all of those worlds BACK to the Imperium. Not all came willingly - and even during the heresy, some of them still maintained a higher technical knowledge base than the Imperium.

You and I will never agree on this point though.

Back to the Imperium? I thought there never was any reference to what type of State or States the pre-DAOT had, and that the Imperium was born with the Emperor's declaration that all the stars were rightfully the domains of Man and Man alone?

Surely, there was no Imperium before the Emperor made himself known?

As I said, the Great Crusade was the peak of the Imperium and by extension, Mankind's power and expansion. The Golden Age of Technology was simply the peak of Human scientific and technological achievement. Yes, they explored the stars and settled new worlds, but it was only under the Imperium that Mankind came to rule over a million worlds.

What I meant was that Chromedog implied the Imperium existed before the Emperor united Terra and launched what would become the Great Crusade, circa 30 000. I'm pretty sure that's always been refered to as the birth of the Imperium, not it's rebirth, and that whatever political entities there were in 20 000 wasn't an Imperium, or at least were never refered to as a single entity...?

Meaning that the Imperium was at it's peak very shortly after it's foundation, and only degraded ever since...

We have no information on the polities that existed before the Old Night. And yes, the Imperium has never truly recovered from the Horus Heresy, and has slowly been crumbling since then.

Back to the point:

Eldar and the Imperium are happy to get along, when their views/goals coincide.
Ultimately, they will never ally completely as Eldar are ultimately too selfish and the Imperium are ultimately too ham-fisted and violent.

Eldar wouldn't waste an Eldar life to save an Imperial planet (without ulterior motives), and would happily kill Imperials to save Eldar lives. The Imperium tends to march about the place destroying everything (ancient eldar burial sites, stirring up enemies) which only antagonises the Eldar.

I think one problem is that all the codex's buff up and make every army seem invincible and if someone is bias towards their army like Tadashi is to his imperium and I am towards my eldar, discussions will actually get no where because each army has their weaknesses and strengths. and we will basically be pulling stuff from anywhere to say our army is better than yours. GW IMO, needs to make a history book (unless they already have) stating when and why things happened and the reasons each army had for doing such an action.