How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?
It doesn't, and I ignore them. My own sense of worth is not affected by other peoples - I buy as much GW or as little as I feel is appropriate and within my means. The only thing that affects the way I feel about the price of GW products is, well, the price of GW products.
Often, the people I encounter who dislike GW prices are people who don't play any GW games. Either they never want to start, or they wanted to start but it was too expensive to get in.
To the former, I explain that they're game is just as expensive per model as my game. I don't give gakk if I need fewer to play, I want an army, not a squad.
To the latter, I offer to let them borrow the models of any of the 30+ people at the FLGS. All of them were introduced to the game in a similar fashion, and there's no obligation to buy if you do enjoy it; having a different person to play with is awesome.
I think it's often refreshing to get an outsiders view on things. Sometimes it's important to look at something and think "Yeah, that IS expensive" and to start looking for other options.
Mind you we're more likely to bitch about retail prices here in Australia when our retail prices are double yours...
Shadelkan wrote:
To the former, I explain that they're game is just as expensive per model as my game. I don't give gakk if I need fewer to play, I want an army, not a squad.
.
To a subset of the former I think you will find. You can buy well over 500 finely detailed (i.e. better than the GW Empire) plastic infantry from the Perrys for the cost of a typical 1750 point GW army.
Other people 'crying', a very perjorative term by the way, doesn't affect me personally as GW had already exceeded my personal price/value tipping point years ago. I do find it interesting to see the same cluster of threads each year after yet another price increase. Some people say that they will stop but don't yet others will, and it is the people who leave that are hurting GW's wallet.
It doesn't, and I "handle them" by recommending Mantic for core troops, while getting monsters and things from GW.
There's plenty of options for buying cheap minis these days, if you can't afford GW, there's nothing stopping you from playing either fantasy or 40k using some of the many alternatives.
If you're an Imperial Guard or Empire player, then you're spoilt for choice as far as alternatives go.
There really is no point complaining about prices, while you are aware of the alternatives. Either buy GW or don't, no point buying GW while grumbling and moaning about the prices, a purchase is supposed to make you happy, the whole point of buying a GW kit is that you're happy to pay more for all the bitz and extensive and largely complete range of plastic models. if you're not happy about the stuff you're buying for the price you're paying then you're doing it wrong.
This is an expensive hobby, but if you can't afford it don't buy more stuff.
As it happens I can afford it for the moment, but if it does get too expensiver then I'm out.
swordbrotherjim wrote: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?
Thee people do not affect me one iota, I listen to what they say and then tell them i dont care.
People will always whine, its a fact of life, best to just ignore the constant whiners if you dont agree with them, alot of them want to argue.
It doesn't affect me much.
Some people's gripes are warranted and sometimes I can understand their rage. However, these agitators need to learn to eBay, as they'll find things much cheaper instead of just complaining about GW.
swordbrotherjim wrote: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?
It doesn't effect me. When I meet them how I act depends on them. If they are just whining I ignore them if they are approaching their concerns in an intelligent manner then I talk to them about it. Most people who are complaining just need to vent or are actually concerned about their hobby.
I make my own judgements on the values of items that I want. I get on well with staff in both my local GW stores and I find GW prices in general to be pretty decent. Some kits seem more value for money than others. eg. at £27.50 I think the new Ork Bommer is better value than say the £20 Tomb Spider. But that is each to their own.
Complaining on a forum will get no attention whatsoever so those threads I find pointless, old and repetitive. I work to afford my luxuries like GW models and save for what I want.
The only thing the complaining threads have done is stop me visiting 40K forums so often because I'm bored of the same old, same old.
You know, I have noticed a very strange trend whenever the GW price rise/screw-overs happen. You get a bunch of outraged threads, people arguing back and forth, yadda yadda, same as last time.
And then, the pendulum seemingly swings in the other direction, and we see a bunch of 'Man, those 40k-prices-are-too-high-guys are a bunch of whiners and crybabies!' threads. Weird.
You know, I have noticed a very strange trend whenever the GW price rise/screw-overs happen. You get a bunch of outraged threads, people arguing back and forth, yadda yadda, same as last time.
And then, the pendulum seemingly swings in the other direction, and we see a bunch of 'Man, those 40k-prices-are-too-high-guys are a bunch of whiners and crybabies!' threads. Weird.
Yup, only difference this time is that all those threads are being started by the same guy... he must have recently got the job at GW or they have started cuting back on their internet shill team.
Hello,
Often people will say others are whining and crying when they themselves already have their kit, there are no further purchases to make, or they have a well filled LFGS. I also believe it depends on what you want to see from the hobby, as consistent price increases are not really helping get more mature players into it. As has been stated on several threads, the business model is to get the young teen into it by the shiny box art, expect a few good years of purchases (normally as gifts, and whatnot) and wait for the next one. This model is fine if you are not overly concerned about the perpetuity of the hobby, however it makes it difficult for small stores to support it, as they do not have the large customer base to cover getting new players every few years. This is one of the reasons I purchase a lot of armies second and third hand, and very easily. I am a older player, having played since the end of second edition so I have a lot of models new players will not recognize, and often want to state “that is not a fair piece, it is not GW” this further illustrates my point of the shiny box art, they are not shown what there was before and assume whenever a new shiny unit comes out they must get it, however only for a few years. Then we have to find new players, support and nurture them hoping they become one of us. Sadly this should be GW’s job, however there is no profit in it, nor even a outrider program, so they leave it to us old timers, to keep them going, by buying armies for the “Young bloods” and talking parents into purchasing their game. Even if we know it will not last.
Regards,
Carl
swordbrotherjim wrote: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?
So is it your opinion that GW's prices are justified?
How do you feel that the continued price gouging campaign is legal, and that future players, I/E the 12-15 year olds that are thier supposed "Target" market are to continue to take them seriously and continue to throw thier hard earned coin at lesser and lesser valued miniatures?
DO YOU feel that they can seriously continue with the amount of competition out there against lower priced, better quality products?
The thing that concerns me is the hard edge some posters take when a question like this is raised. I may be wrong but their response is generally along the lines of "Oh so you can't afford to buy GW stuff?TOUGH!, I can!". I sincerely hope this is truly not the case, it would be horrible if the hobby community broke into the have and have not camps.
Actually, I don't believe I have seen anyone crying about it? Perhaps there is a lunatic, holed away somewhere in a cave in Iceland who at this very moment is crying a flood of tears at the recent price increases? But in any case, I don't believe he has posted on Dakka.
So.. the premise of the thread is so unlikely that it can be safely confirmed that it is not true - perhaps time to close the thread?
To be honest, I haven't noticed a change in the tyranid gaunts from 3rd edition through to today, apart from a repackaging, so I fail to see why $32 for 16 gaunts is reasonable now when it used to be $32 for 32 gaunts...
The same goes for the tactical squad, SM terminators... list goes on. The only possible change might be repackaging, otherwise, the actual model has stayed the same. Taking that into account, it's hard to compare the cost with the models, because it's not like they have improved in quality. In fact, I feel that other manufacturers have better quality miniatures. The price had gotten to the point where I question whether perhaps the other systems are not as good or better than the ones manufactured by GW. The experience has been enlightening...
Now, as the peer brothers work for GW their sculpting is just as good if not better, the castings are marginally better than GW.
If you buy the historical minatures, not only can they be used for empire/bretonnians but you can also make a historical army too, 3 armies in one.
If someone said to you do you want 16 figures for £20 or 40 for £18 and you get spend the other £2 on a chocolate bar or ice cream, what would you go for?
Now To the On topic bit. I will listen carefully to any whinger, as a lot of them have valid points. if they say ''Instead of paying stupidly high prices for some models you can only really use in one system, go on this website and you can get 3 times the models at the same quality and can be used for more than one system for £18'' i may just take up their advice.
Now a whinger who moans about the prices while still buying gw gets ignored, as does someone who tells me to buy GW.
i really do not understand why people will buy GW stuff when there is cheaper stuff that's just as good.
I would love to buy GW models, but whilst they are 3 times the money of other manufactures and have less benefits I doont see why I should. even if i did have the money, i wouldnt buy them.
swordbrotherjim wrote:How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?
How does it affect you when trolls ask disingenuously-phrased leading questions?
swordbrotherjim wrote: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?
The crying does not affect the way I think, the cost affects what I think. I agree with them usually these days.
Now, as the peer brothers work for GW their sculpting is just as good if not better, the castings are marginally better than GW.
If you buy the historical minatures, not only can they be used for empire/bretonnians but you can also make a historical army too, 3 armies in one.
If someone said to you do you want 16 figures for £20 or 40 for £18 and you get spend the other £2 on a chocolate bar or ice cream, what would you go for?
Now To the On topic bit. I will listen carefully to any whinger, as a lot of them have valid points. if they say ''Instead of paying stupidly high prices for some models you can only really use in one system, go on this website and you can get 3 times the models at the same quality and can be used for more than one system for £18'' i may just take up their advice.
Now a whinger who moans about the prices while still buying gw gets ignored, as does someone who tells me to buy GW.
i really do not understand why people will buy GW stuff when there is cheaper stuff that's just as good.
I would love to buy GW models, but whilst they are 3 times the money of other manufactures and have less benefits I doont see why I should. even if i did have the money, i wouldnt buy them.
Why most people buy from GW? because they grew up with GW and is the only product they know. It has mass marketing from video games and is what mostly found in FLGS
Why most people buy from GW? because they grew up with GW and is the only product they know. It has mass marketing from video games and is what mostly found in FLGS
I think most people stick with it because it is hard to get complete armies now with the same look and feel as a GW army. There certainly are exceptions but even in fantasy GW has moved farther and farther away from historical looking armies (ie Empire troops no longer really look like they did a few years ago). It is interesting but that is one of the main reasons that people don't buy other stuff.
I have no pulse on what other people think.
I just do what I want.
That said, GW is getting too expensive for me.
Fortunately, I have already finished my army.
So now I just play and paint.
it makes me proud that I'm part of a hobby that values it's products and intellectual property properly.
To me it's like wanting a steak. I can go to Mortons and get an awesome Prime Rib for $60 and if I can afford it, I'll get my moneys worth. If you can't afford the steak, then you are going to argue that The Sizzler's $9.99 steak is just as good and that Mortons is overpriced and how dare they charge so much for beef. Bottom line, it's better quality..prepared by better chefs...and the experience is better.
That's GW, yes...it's a $60 steak....but man, it tastes pretty good and if you can afford it...it's worth every penny.
When people complain about how expensive GW is, I tell them how much it is to fill up my Ford Truck...it's the price of a battleforce. I'll eat that Mortons steak every day of the week TBH.
The other reason why many people only knows GW is because there are thousands of stuff you can find in ebay from retired players.
Also a lot of players are lazy or ignorant to use the internet to find other alternatives to GW. In theminiaturespage forum, there is a guy who found a player who use to think GW was the whole wargaming. That player did not realize there was a universe of different miniatures and rules out there. How ignorant.
I believe OP meant to put decrying, not crying. Poor word choice.
I'm in love with Dakka, though, because they find so many ways to attack everything but the argument. It's amusing, no sarcasm
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Capt. Camping wrote:The other reason why many people only knows GW is because there are thousands of stuff you can find in ebay from retired players.
Also a lot of players are lazy or ignorant to use the internet to find other alternatives to GW. In theminiaturespage forum, there is a guy who found a player who use to think GW was the whole wargaming. That player did not realize there was a universe of different miniatures and rules out there. How ignorant.
How condescending of you. I'm sure many people look up to you with that kind of attitude.
I play 40k exclusively, as none of the other games or models interest me. Yet, I often explain to people at my FLGS that there are other great game systems, and that anyone can play more than one system. I challenge them, even, to look into other games, as that's the only way someone can be happy with their hobby.
deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:it makes me proud that I'm part of a hobby that values it's products and intellectual property properly.
To me it's like wanting a steak. I can go to Mortons and get an awesome Prime Rib for $60 and if I can afford it, I'll get my moneys worth. If you can't afford the steak, then you are going to argue that The Sizzler's $9.99 steak is just as good and that Mortons is overpriced and how dare they charge so much for beef. Bottom line, it's better quality..prepared by better chefs...and the experience is better.
That's GW, yes...it's a $60 steak....but man, it tastes pretty good and if you can afford it...it's worth every penny.
.
trouble is with the advent of finecast your chances of getting a steak filled with gristle are reasonably high ( 20% or above from what i've seen and read), is that $60 dollar load of gristle worth it or is the sizzler steak?
I don't have to listen to other peoples gripes to come to my own conclusion.
I'm 25 years old and an Iraq war veteran and I play with little plastic men. Alittle shamefull but everyone has their guilty pleasures. What gets me though is when I show off my models I get ooo's and aww's but the topic immediatly turns to how much money that plastic box (aka tanks/apc) cost
"Oh this here? $50, but I got it across the pond for only $40!!"
Its the look of horror on peoples faces on how much I spent on plastic army men that really make me feel ashamed.
I love the hobby though and will stick to just beating myself up because I buy plastic crack.
Palindrome wrote:
I suppose some people could be so happy that they are paying more that they are overcome with tears of joy.
Are you seriously unable to tell the difference between not liking something and whining about something?
Oh I can tell the difference. I am curious as to what you thought the OP meant though, its not as if he hasn't made his feelings abundantly clear by his word choice.
Palindrome wrote:
I suppose some people could be so happy that they are paying more that they are overcome with tears of joy.
Are you seriously unable to tell the difference between not liking something and whining about something?
Oh I can tell the difference. I am curious as to what you thought the OP meant though, its not as if he hasn't made his feelings abundantly clear by his word choice.
I think you've got it backwards.
Crying is disliking, but disliking is not necessarily crying.
I will continue to buy GW products even though I PERSONALLY believe them to be overpriced.
I used to simply buy whatever model I wanted to play with. Now I have to do some thinking about adding that $70 model is worth the fun ill get out of it in games vs price.
Right now I am assembling a 2nd WHFB army. I have only just begun but due to expense, I am building it up more slowly.
I will most likely stop collecting GW models after this army as I will own 2 armies for both 40k and Fantasy.
Of course I will revisist buying GW when army books/codexes are released for the armies I play.
I will continue to play both 40k and Fantasy for many many years to come I believe.
It is not that I am upset that prices go up. What I am upset is that there is no reason it should. I might not be an expert in the area of plastic mini models, however, I have worked in the auto production for 8 years. Every year at the factory where each part is made, later to be made into a car (you would be surprised how many there are), after a year, the factory producing the parts is expected to have a price decrease of about 1-3%. Each model has about a life of 6 years, therefore, the final run of a model is about 6 - 18% less to produce than the first run of the model. Not saying the savings is passed onto the customer, however, it does offset over the time of the vehicle and its sales.
Now, GW has used the same plastic molds for some of the current models now for ten years or more. Maybe since plastic is a petroleum product, cost for material costs more, but, I doubt it matches the inflation of there price increases.
All in all, I just want to know the reason for the price increase other than "well, its that time of year again".
deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:it makes me proud that I'm part of a hobby that values it's products and intellectual property properly.
To me it's like wanting a steak. I can go to Mortons and get an awesome Prime Rib for $60 and if I can afford it, I'll get my moneys worth. If you can't afford the steak, then you are going to argue that The Sizzler's $9.99 steak is just as good and that Mortons is overpriced and how dare they charge so much for beef. Bottom line, it's better quality..prepared by better chefs...and the experience is better.
That's GW, yes...it's a $60 steak....but man, it tastes pretty good and if you can afford it...it's worth every penny.
When people complain about how expensive GW is, I tell them how much it is to fill up my Ford Truck...it's the price of a battleforce. I'll eat that Mortons steak every day of the week TBH.
So those Finecast minis at my FLGS with the bubbles, holes, and generally malformed areas are like Morton's prime rib?
That Sizzler is sounding a lot better all the sudden.
Milisim wrote:I will continue to buy GW products even though I PERSONALLY believe them to be overpriced.
I used to simply buy whatever model I wanted to play with. Now I have to do some thinking about adding that $70 model is worth the fun ill get out of it in games vs price.
Right now I am assembling a 2nd WHFB army. I have only just begun but due to expense, I am building it up more slowly.
I will most likely stop collecting GW models after this army as I will own 2 armies for both 40k and Fantasy.
Of course I will revisist buying GW when army books/codexes are released for the armies I play.
I will continue to play both 40k and Fantasy for many many years to come I believe.
I would like to commend you on your good sense. It is amazing how many people don't have it.
Well, I find the OP incredibly offensive. The arguments against GW are getting better informed and well reasoned compared to last time (imo) and to dismiss them as whining or crying or acting like babies or saying we should be happy this is the only problem we have is quite stale and ill reasoned.
Milisim wrote:I will continue to buy GW products even though I PERSONALLY believe them to be overpriced.
I used to simply buy whatever model I wanted to play with. Now I have to do some thinking about adding that $70 model is worth the fun ill get out of it in games vs price.
Right now I am assembling a 2nd WHFB army. I have only just begun but due to expense, I am building it up more slowly.
I will most likely stop collecting GW models after this army as I will own 2 armies for both 40k and Fantasy.
Of course I will revisist buying GW when army books/codexes are released for the armies I play.
I will continue to play both 40k and Fantasy for many many years to come I believe.
I would like to commend you on your good sense. It is amazing how many people don't have it.
GW definitely has style and story down, and I believe that that is partly what is being paid for anymore. They are sort of an elite golf club that has wide "appeal" in the sense that the name is recognized and respected, even if for the wrong reasons. I also think that they are largely responsible for increasing the popularity of tabletop gaming, which, again, lends to their credit in terms of respect. To me, the problem with the company enters when you view it from two viewpoints: 1)Evolution of the gaming industry, and 2)Soundness from a gaming perspective (art, style, story aside).
To address the first point, from the history I understand of GW they were pioneers in the beginning, and maintained this through roughly 4th edition (I started playing at the transition period from 3rd to 4th). It was around this time that many other legitimate games started to gain ground, and many companies saw an opening to compete with GW for the same gaming space. The internet was also rapidly expanding by this point and changing the way both marketing and sales worked. GW seemed to staunchly take the stance of turning their back to this evolution of the industry and fight tooth-and-nail to maintain exactly what it had already established (the mass of litigation and lack of online availability ensued).
The second point is what really turned me away from the game. It became readily apparent over the years that GW had no real intention of creating a good game for its tournament scene. Yes it has story, yes it has character, yes it has good mechanics, but it absolutely does not nor will have objective or subjective balance beyond a few of the army choices. Dealing with minor balance issues is typically not a problem, and is expected in games universally. Tournaments typically point out these issues and the makers, if they are driven by customer demands, typically find a way to address said issues (Infinity and Malifaux have both proved to be good examples of this ongoing process). Most other game companies due this via errata and online wikis and online forums to deal with official changes and rulings. GW does not do any of that and go so far as to relegate certain armies into near worthlessness with each codex they release. For those players looking for strategy and tactical games that offer numerous approaches and varied play styles, GW is a poor choice. For players who don't like needing cookie-cutter armies and model lists to stay competitive, GW is a poor choice.
I've since turned to Infinity to fill my need for high-level strategical thinking that is insanely balanced across the board... it doesn't hurt that CB has some amazing miniatures to boot at rather reasonable prices. Malifaux fills my need for story and fun as much as 40k ever did, and it has more than enough character for me. All in all, I've found the competition to be much more enjoyable, competitive, balanced, and cost-effective than GW, which is why I do my darndest to demo games and attract attention in my LGS.
Surtur wrote:Well, I find the OP incredibly offensive. The arguments against GW are getting better informed and well reasoned compared to last time (imo) and to dismiss them as whining or crying or acting like babies or saying we should be happy this is the only problem we have is quite stale and ill reasoned.
Why are you pushing your personal agenda? Try reading only what is written.
The OP didn't say everyone who dislikes GW's pricing policies is "crying or acting like babies". He asked how do people who ARE crying and acting like babies affect the way you think about the products.
Btw i wanted to thank the guy who mentioned perry miniatures, i had a look round the site and am thinking of buying Korean garrison archers as my kossite woodsmen. I really like those minis!
For me, some good has come out of this thread
The OP didn't say everyone who dislikes GW's pricing policies is "crying or acting like babies". He asked how do people who ARE crying and acting like babies affect the way you think about the products.
On the one hand, this is a voluntary hobby and I hate whiners of any stripe.
On the other, I feel for those who can't afford to collect and play this game with the ease that many of us take for granted.
Still, GW should be able to raise its prices anytime they want. If you find yourself priced out of the hobby, well, 'thems the breaks' despite how much you have 'invested' in the past.
Loyalty to a company accounts for nothing despite how 'wonderful' it would be. I can also, with confidence, rest assured that should a bigger and badder game universe rear its head the players of 40k will leave in droves with little regard for GW's well being.
Honestly, I went to a new gaming store this weekend that opened up recently selling Infinity and Warmachine stuff. I found the models to be barely any cheaper than Games Workshop 40k models.
Also, most non-gaming model kits around are not much cheaper than Games Workshop models. e.g an Airfix type of tank will cost £15.00-20.00 while a GW Chimera will cost 20 quid and a LRBT will cost £30.00 but are usually superior models.
Of course the only thing is that most 40k armies you need many many times more models that gaming systems such as Infinity (unless you play GK of course). But this is about the only issue and if you want small Infinity sized games then you can equally play 500-750 point 40k games for the same price with some 40k armies.
I admit I used to be "bitching at GW prices" all the time, but honestly looking at competing gaming systems and models they aren't all that bad. Sure, some things are not acceptable; like finecast is poor in my opinion for the price and the price of paints is not good value for money, with Vallejo being cheaper and of equal quality imo. Also the way they have treated fanfilms and fiction in the past has been questionable. So I still have a lot of criticism and scrutiny for them.
I think the fact so many people crying about the high prices had made me look into it more objectively and found out that actually the crying is often not justifiable.
Surtur wrote:Well, I find the OP incredibly offensive. The arguments against GW are getting better informed and well reasoned compared to last time (imo) and to dismiss them as whining or crying or acting like babies or saying we should be happy this is the only problem we have is quite stale and ill reasoned.
Why are you pushing your personal agenda? Try reading only what is written.
The OP didn't say everyone who dislikes GW's pricing policies is "crying or acting like babies". He asked how do people who ARE crying and acting like babies affect the way you think about the products.
"How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?"
Given that he spoke in broad generalities that the forum is oft to do, it's safer to assume he was labeling everyone who complained. I rather think that you are the one pushing an agenda since you've been flying in the face of people who were targeted by the OP and telling them to be quiet. As for people crying and being a baby, please by all means, name names. Give us some examples.
I suppose that if the points the people were 'crying' about were invalid, I'd complain a lot more. The thing is, so far, those points have never been more valid.
My GW spending was looking more like my Triathlon spending, and that was quite the wake-up call. That is a no go, and at least Triathlon gives the added bonus of keeping me in shape.
Points can be valid or invalid even if you don't agree with them. In the realm of GW's pricing, the fact is that there have been two price increases in the last 6 months, and neither one was a simple inflation adjustment. The Stormraven is now $82.50. What was it two weeks ago? $66 I believe? Like it or hate it, that is a 25% price increase that literally happened overnight; and wasn't the Stormraven (which launched last year, correct?) only $56 when it first came out (I could be wrong on that one, as I've slept since the release...)?
The valid point to be made is that the price increase is dramatically high regardless of your level of income or 'love for the hobby.'
The OP didn't say everyone who dislikes GW's pricing policies is "crying or acting like babies". He asked how do people who ARE crying and acting like babies affect the way you think about the products.
The OP neglected to make that distinction.
True but is it so hard to not read bad intentions into everything we read on this site? It shouldn't surprise me but somehow it still does how people insist on being affronted, insulted, and disrespected (sometimes all at the same time).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Surtur wrote:
Given that he spoke in broad generalities that the forum is oft to do, it's safer to assume he was labeling everyone who complained.
FifteenHours wrote:Honestly, I went to a new gaming store this weekend that opened up recently selling Infinity and Warmachine stuff. I found the models to be barely any cheaper than Games Workshop 40k models.
and how many points worth of models do you need for a decent game? 40k Requires quite a bit more points, which translates into quite a bit more purchases. There is also a cost-to-effect ratio... Lets take for instance that the WH40k starter set does not give you enough to actually have a legally playable army, both players still need to buy one more squad of troops. Warmachine starter set? Playable army straight off the bat. L61.50 for 40k starter + 2 boxes and codices for 40k, or L62.95 + WM rulebook? Comparing models is not the end all be all. It's the fact that you need five and a half squads of guardsmen to have a decent single infantry choice for IG... It's L23.00 for a squad of tac marines, and about L23.70 for a maxed out squad of winterguard.... yeah, them privateer press models are so much more expensive, they practically ruin you financially.
Let's face it, while you can play a 500 point game of 40k, it is not the type of game 40k has become. Now with the summer of fliers, after the summer of apocalypse.... this game is only going in one direction, and it is big.
Also, most non-gaming model kits around are not much cheaper than Games Workshop models. e.g an Airfix type of tank will cost £15.00-20.00 while a GW Chimera will cost 20 quid and a LRBT will cost £30.00 but are usually superior models.
you honestly think GW tanks are superior in quality? GW tanks comprise of 5, maybe 6, pieces of *maybe* straight plastic. I've checked out the Airfix, and apart from horrendous pricing because of the branding and packaging, i don't see your gripe. If we are talking models, then Tamiya's stuff is cheaper time and again than GW's stuff, and a much better quality. The other thing you have to take into account when checking the pricing is the quantity of detail that goes into scale models. The undercarriage assembly, engine, gun... the list goes on, there's tons more parts in a scale model kit than there are in a GW kit, which translates to more detail. The GW tanks are all four-piece bricks with limited detail or shaping to them. I could go into detail about the disastrous design principle as military vehicles, but this is irrelevant for this track of discussion.
Of course the only thing is that most 40k armies you need many many times more models that gaming systems such as Infinity (unless you play GK of course). But this is about the only issue and if you want small Infinity sized games then you can equally play 500-750 point 40k games for the same price with some 40k armies.
Key word here is some not all, and even then, the armies available to you with the kind of budget we are talking of are entirely non-competitive. A space marine army maxed out at 500 points consists of two tac squads and a captain. The AOBR kit at L61.50 + tac squad at L23.00 makes a total of L84.50, and you're still without a codex. WM with rulebook runs you L80.95.... I really don't understand where you are getting your numbers from.
I admit I used to be "bitching at GW prices" all the time, but honestly looking at competing gaming systems and models they aren't all that bad. Sure, some things are not acceptable; like finecast is poor in my opinion for the price and the price of paints is not good value for money, with Vallejo being cheaper and of equal quality imo.
so if GW prices are worse all around, and the quality is worse all around, then, logically speaking, the gripe is justified, because GW keeps feeding the market it's excrement telling everyone it's gourmet chocloate. The fact is that since GW opened up the market, other's have entered after it, and their quality of product is better, more affordable and better planned out. Further, GW's systems are utterly and entirely unbalanced. GW will always have a following comprised entirely of whiners because it advertises to kids, punts out the old loyal diehards and mistreats them as customers, and makes it hard for kids to keep playing by pushing the prices up so high.
Also the way they have treated fanfilms and fiction in the past has been questionable. So I still have a lot of criticism and scrutiny for them.
this is not at issue here. so i'm not touching this, though, suffice it to say, there's a story behind it, and everything in this case makes sense.
I think the fact so many people crying about the high prices had made me look into it more objectively and found out that actually the crying is often not justifiable.
except that the consumer market is waking up, and getting very irate at the fact that there are so many other games, manufacturers and systems out there which match or exceed GW for price and quality. The consumers are irate with the fact that while they would like to stay with GW, GW's behavior, pricing or antics are not matched by any other company on the market, which is in effect pushing the customer base flying to other companies.
Of course the only thing is that most 40k armies you need many many times more models that gaming systems such as Infinity (unless you play GK of course). But this is about the only issue and if you want small Infinity sized games then you can equally play 500-750 point 40k games for the same price with some 40k armies.
Argh, feth me, I should really just have this friggin saved in a word file every time someone brings up this argument:
GW games aren't designed or balanced around such small match ups. It's designed and balanced around ~1500 point armies. If you play the games the way they're designed, using the models created for the games, Games Workshop is ultimately more expensive. The vast majority of people play the games the way they're "intended" to be played in the game's rulebooks. Whenever I go into any shop, it's almost always 1500+ pt games, with the very occasional 1000 pointer. No one plays 500 point games unless they're working on a new army. I haven't played Infinity, but I have to imagine, that in terms of tactical depth and engaging gameplay, a 500 point game of 40K is not going to even approach Infinity (no pun intended). The game is neither interesting nor balanced at that level. I mean, at 500 points, using the Force Organization chart, match ups like, say, Necrons vs. IG are going to be unbelievably one-sided.
But no, you don't have to play big games of 40K. But using this logic, I don't "have" to play 40K with GW minis. I could buy a bunch of goddamned green army men by the truckload and play with those. I can get 28mm scale World War II tanks from Warlord Games for $40 USD, as opposed to the $57.75 GW is asking for any of their tanks.
Ultimately, I look at it this way:
With GW, I have to spend around $500 to play a satisfying game, buying at retail.
With PP, I have to pay half that or less buying at retail. With other games like Infinity and Malifaux, it's even less.
If you just want to have lots and lots of miniatures, then GW is certainly one of the better options. But I don't really give a gak about having a massive pile of little plastic/resin/metal army men. I want to play games. Therefore, I get far more bang for my buck from PP, Wyrd, Corvus Beli, etc. Everyone I've talked to locally feels the same, and frankly, I see fewer and fewer people playing Warhammer 40K as time goes on. I can't even remember the last time I saw someone playing WHFB. Obviously there is a price-to-miniatures ratio that can turn me away from a game; I'm not gonna spend $300 for ten 28-30mm scale humans, no matter how awesome the game is, for example. PP hasn't hit that ratio yet. Frankly, I have no problem with the pricing of GW's kits, individually. $37.50 for 10 Marines is fine. $37.50 for a Rhino is fine. $57.75 for a Vindicator... I don't like so much, but I don't like that a box of 3 Cryx Soul Hunters is $45. Where they get me is the price I have to pay to have a decent army for a decent game. And either way, barring their Elves, Mantic's models are pretty good. Check out the thread about Mantic's skeletons in the Mantic subforum on Dakka. I don't know who paints and photographs the minis for Mantic's site, but they really ought to be fired as they seem to be actively trying to make them look like gak. They're actually quite good when painted and photographed properly. And you can get 20 Mantic Skeletons for $25 as opposed to GW's 10 for $24.75. Mantic sure seems to be able to provide twice as many minis for the same price as GW.
And even then, there's the barrier to entry. Sure, you could just buy one squad of Space Marines and play with that, but it's going to be a gakky game and you're going to want to move on to bigger and better things. Let's say I want to get started playing 40K. So I'm off to the store to get started. Space Marines are overplayed and I don't like Orks, so I decide to get me some of those badass Dark Eldar models. Buying everything new, I'm gonna need, to get the best bang for my buck (generic supplies like glue, dice, paint, etc not included), the Dark Eldar Batallion, an HQ model, the Dark Eldar Codex, and a Rulebook. That's $60 for the Rulebook, $33.00 for the Codex, $16 for an Archon, and $110 for the Battleforce. $219 just to get started. Just to get started. Or I could start Warmachine, and to be fair, I'll even include the rulebook and "Forces of...." book, neither of which are strictly necessary to get started. So Rulebook, $30. Forces of book $35. Single player Battlebox, $50. $115.
TL;DR:
-500 point games of 40K are unbalanced and not fun. It's generally built around 1500 point games.
-My standard 40K army cost $560. My Standard Warmachine Army cost about $250. Ergo while GW has the cheaper MINIATURES, Privateer Press has the cheaper GAME. And even then, I think that the average cost per model of my Warmachine army is a bit less than that of my 40K army, thanks to the fact that 40K vehicles are a TERRIBLE points-to-dollars ratio, but also almost completely mandatory to be competitive.
I'm not going to repeat that all in a quote, but in lieu of physical contact or a hugging orkmoticon, I'm just going to give my screen a big bear hug.
I think that's the bit where the complaints about GW's pricing get lost. It's true that, for the most part, GW's prices are more or less in line with the 'big name' hobby standards (barring people like the Perry Brothers - may they live forever in triumphant plastic and metal glory - and Will Townshend, the owner of the PSC, and the guy who'll be supplying most of my German needs).
The problem comes when most wargames either go for skirmish scale for 28mm, or if it's more company sized engagement, their miniatures are cheaper or of a smaller scale (and, then, cheaper as a result). It's the fact that it costs more to get to a reasonable amount of points in 40k or Fantasy that makes people complain - and 500 points of 40k or Fantasy is not and, with GW's current mindset, will never be 'reasonable'.
Other peoples concerns about pricing means nothing to me. I'm a big boy who can do the math to find out how much a project or army is going to cost.
And really, the price increases only hurt if you are paying retail, and I rarely pay retail. Land Raiders saw a 12.5% price increase. My old price was $46.20, my new price is 51.98. So I still see a $6 increase, but the total price of the item is still well below what the old price was. Rhinos went from $22 to $25, big deal.
If I was dumb enough to pay retail prices for large orders, then sure the price hike would hurt. But when you buy $500 worth of models for only $350, that increase up from $315 isn't so bad.
I have more issue with the pricing structure itself than I do with the price rises. $41.25MSRP for 10 Greatswords? That is as much as the metal ones went for, now in a significantly cheaper medium. It is priced as such because an Empire player will only ever buy 3 or maybe 4 boxes of them, as they only need one unit, and perhaps a box for converting characters. Now look at Free Company. Granted it's a box from a now outdated size for a regiment, but you get 20 soldiers plus a crap ton of extra bits and weapons, for $6 less than 10 greatswords. State Troops are only $25 for 10. But they are "cheaper" because you need 4 boxes for that horde of halberdiers, plus 3 more for spearmen, 3 more for swordsmen...
But no, you don't have to play big games of 40K. But using this logic, I don't "have" to play 40K with GW minis. I could buy a bunch of goddamned green army men by the truckload and play with those. I can get 28mm scale World War II tanks from Warlord Games for $40 USD, as opposed to the $57.75 GW is asking for any of their tanks.
Thank you, i actually forgot about this myself.
Defiance games and wargames factory produce a decent IG alternative by the bucket load. And by bucket I mean dump truck.
Surtur wrote:I rather think that you are the one pushing an agenda since you've been flying in the face of people who were targeted by the OP and telling them to be quiet.
Nonsense. I only responded to the people putting words into the OP's mouth.
If people aren't going to read posts, why would you even bother posting in the thread?
DarknessEternal wrote:You're the one associating "disliking" with "crying". The OP did not insinuate such a thing and only said "crying" and never mentioned "disliking".
Then I guess you don't know what a 'leading question' is?
DarknessEternal wrote:Not everything is about your personal agenda.
*gasp* You found out! The conspiracy has been reviled!!!!!!!!
DarknessEternal wrote:You're the one associating "disliking" with "crying". The OP did not insinuate such a thing and only said "crying" and never mentioned "disliking".
Then I guess you don't know what a 'leading question' is?
DarknessEternal wrote:Not everything is about your personal agenda.
*gasp* You found out! The conspiracy has been reviled!!!!!!!!
Quick HMBC, I mean fearless leader! What shall we do? He must be silenced!
Palindrome wrote:
The OP neglected to make that distinction.
Were the two sentences he wrote really too long to read completely?
I'm a little surprised that you are leaping to the defence of a topic that was probably conceptualised in about 4 seconds, uses loaded language, and has presumably been written by someone (just a guess here, but I'd be surprised if I'm wrong) that probably doesn't have to pay for their miniatures themselves?
fifteenhours wrote:Also, most non-gaming model kits around are not much cheaper than Games Workshop models. e.g an Airfix type of tank will cost £15.00-20.00 while a GW Chimera will cost 20 quid and a LRBT will cost £30.00 but are usually superior models.
This isn't the case at all unfortunately, GW producing models for its own game is the reason for a price disparity rather than it being indicative of quality. There might be 4 or 5 different manufacturers making a PzIV in 1:32 scale. So, how does Dragon make you buy theirs? By sending design engineers to Europe to museums to obtain blue-prints for the tank, use modern technology to map the proportions and layout of existing examples, and then produce a plastic/aluminium/brass kit with over 600 or so pieces that is the closest possible comparison to the actual vehicle. Both in terms of quality of the kit, the way the pieces fit together perfectly, and the fact that overall it is just a blood good little piece of engineering, you would think that the Dragon kit would be substantially more expensive. But it's not - I'm putting together a 1:32 StUG at the moment that is the same price as a GW Chimera. For the latter, for the kit alone (and outside the context of GW games) I wouldn't expect to pay more than £10 or so for it.
My buddy says it best , 40k is a hobby no more expensive than re building a 69 mustang, or playing guitar. So if you can't afford to have the hobby then don't play. It's a shame that this rings true because the game is cool and i wish that more people could play. Now I do feel paying 750$ for a brand new armyis a bit offensive. I priced it out and with current prices its about 150-200$ more now to build 2500pts worth of stuff . So that's why I use amazon, eBay, dakka swaps, ect... For my army purchases.
HereticWolf wrote:My buddy says it best , 40k is a hobby no more expensive than re building a 69 mustang, or playing guitar. So if you can't afford to have the hobby then don't play. It's a shame that this rings true because the game is cool and i wish that more people could play. Now I do feel paying 750$ for a brand new armyis a bit offensive. I priced it out and with current prices its about 150-200$ more now to build 2500pts worth of stuff . So that's why I use amazon, eBay, dakka swaps, ect... For my army purchases.
I agree with your friend as table top is "one of" many hobbies I pursue. Try golf($48 for 12 balls! and $75 green fee for one person. ref: Titlest ProV1/VB National), paintball, ATVs, or a home! Or a sports memorabilia collector!(can't even play with that junk!).
HereticWolf wrote:My buddy says it best , 40k is a hobby no more expensive than re building a 69 mustang, or playing guitar. So if you can't afford to have the hobby then don't play. It's a shame that this rings true because the game is cool and i wish that more people could play. Now I do feel paying 750$ for a brand new armyis a bit offensive. I priced it out and with current prices its about 150-200$ more now to build 2500pts worth of stuff . So that's why I use amazon, eBay, dakka swaps, ect... For my army purchases.
Wish I knew that when I started I would take a 69 Stang or a trams am any day.
You're in the hobby= You pay for the hobby in my opinion. The people that complain about the price just confirms for me that it takes all sorts to make the world go round. As long as they dont ruin my Warhammer experience then i have no quarrel with them
Well, I could never have started (much less finished) my Dwarf army had Mantic not come on the scene. Although that was my money, not my mum's...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HereticWolf wrote:My buddy says it best , 40k is a hobby no more expensive than re building a 69 mustang, or playing guitar. So if you can't afford to have the hobby then don't play.
I've said it before, I'll say it again.
We all understand that wargaming is a relatively cheap hobby compared to some. But when you pay enough money to rebuild a classic muscle car to field an army of little plastic armymen, that's an issue.
ESPECIALLY since other minitature providers manage to produce minis every bit as good - if not better - for significantly less and still manage to make a profit. I refer you once again to the Perry Brothers as a prime example. 18 pounds for 40 infantry or 18 cavalry - that's in the $30-35 dollar range, and they are every bit as good as GW.
And let's not talk about the total lack of quality control on Finecast. If you're going to charge Ferrarri prices, you'd better well deliver a Ferrarri, and not a lemon of a Ford that you have to rebuild even though it is brand new.
Well, I could never have started (much less finished) my Dwarf army had Mantic not come on the scene. Although that was my money, not my mum's...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
HereticWolf wrote:My buddy says it best , 40k is a hobby no more expensive than re building a 69 mustang, or playing guitar. So if you can't afford to have the hobby then don't play.
I've said it before, I'll say it again.
We all understand that wargaming is a relatively cheap hobby compared to some. But when you pay enough money to rebuild a classic muscle car to field an army of little plastic armymen, that's an issue.
ESPECIALLY since other minitature providers manage to produce minis every bit as good - if not better - for significantly less and still manage to make a profit. I refer you once again to the Perry Brothers as a prime example. 18 pounds for 40 infantry or 18 cavalry - that's in the $30-35 dollar range, and they are every bit as good as GW.
And let's not talk about the total lack of quality control on Finecast. If you're going to charge Ferrarri prices, you'd better well deliver a Ferrarri, and not a lemon of a Ford that you have to rebuild even though it is brand new.
I have my Dwarf army from Mantic Games and is about 1750 pts for WFB. It only cost me about $120.00. Thanks internet for enlightment and saving me from ignorance and my pocket.
First off i dont mind the prices of gw that much because i enjoy the game and its my only hobby that consumes money. that being said i first found out about this game and company when i was 8 or so and bought some stuff then the gw store near me closed and i had no 40 LGS near me so i just painted that stuff and waited for a new store or till i moved. Sadly when i moved i was in a significantly less desirably position financially and was unable to purchasee models and play regardless of how much i wanted to or weather i liked the prices or not. The big "PROBLEM" with gw prices is not "how expensive" it is or "overcosted" the real probblem is the BUY IN COST is way way high sure you can buy a battlebox and paint it up and grab an hq and maybe be able to play 500 points but to really get into the game (atleast 1000pts) it cost a significant amount of money upfront and if you havent yet been able to try the game its a huge gamble .some people are perfectly ok wit ha 12 dollar movie ticket + concessions for a single movie and they do it regularly i spend themoney those people spend on movies and w/e their hobby is on gw instead.
short version- prices are a little steep i dont mind but the buy in cost i feel is WAY to high although i do think black reach and island of blood are a great way to get people into the game 2 people split the box its 50 bucks a person and they can both try it out for LESS THAN A VIDEO GAME so over all i think its fine.
edit- OT others opinions do not directly affect my outlook on the matter they simply allow me to view their opinion and maybe take some of it into account.
Stephen Bond wrote:You're in the hobby= You pay for the hobby in my opinion. The people that complain about the price just confirms for me that it takes all sorts to make the world go round. As long as they dont ruin my Warhammer experience then i have no quarrel with them
You mean Wargaming? The hobby that has been around since before GW existed? Oh, that's right, you mean the HHHobby, a false construct created by GW and it's white knights.
short version- prices are a little steep i dont mind but the buy in cost i feel is WAY to high although i do think black reach and island of blood are a great way to get people into the game 2 people split the box its 50 bucks a person and they can both try it out for LESS THAN A VIDEO GAME so over all i think its fine.
splitting the cost of the box does work, but, again, as mentioned above, you still have to take into account other minimum factors. Once you add paint, glue, the miminum army requirement (+$40 or 50 for the box of infantry, and another, what, $30 for the codex?), the price starts to rack up over the cost of a video game. Then there's the fact that there's only one core rulebook. This is fine if it's being split inside one household, but lets assume its two friends who will both want their own copy of the rules. Gotta rack on another... geeze, i think $50? maybe $60? Were alot closer to $120/person once everything is said and done.
now GRANTED, you do raise a valid point that it gets you INTO the game, but it doesnt give you a playable army to KEEP playing, so that factor has to be added to it. I will also give you the benefit of the doubt, given that video games are now half-assed products that are released unfinished, and "addons" that fix the game or make it worse cost $15-30, and there's usually 2 addons, so we are looking at a price range of $90-$120 for a video game. So, speaking with respect to basic army vs video game: prices are about on par. One difference though, is that as a videogame ages on the market, it's price declines, so this is another factor to consider.
I'm not sure that video-games are a valid comparison. Smoking now... now that is a valid comparison. You can drop big bucks on some fine cigars, and smoke them away, and the taxes keep driving the cost up. Like miniatures, it's bad for the enviroment because of all the smoke and gak (and waste product, those sprues have quite a bit of wastage), and both hobbies suffer from loonies moralizing those enjoying the particular hobby as well as the manufacturers.
Stephen Bond wrote:You're in the hobby= You pay for the hobby in my opinion. The people that complain about the price just confirms for me that it takes all sorts to make the world go round. As long as they dont ruin my Warhammer experience then i have no quarrel with them
You mean Wargaming? The hobby that has been around since before GW existed? Oh, that's right, you mean the HHHobby, a false construct created by GW and it's white knights.
Thank you for your constructive contribution to the thread...
On topic: Most hobbies are expensive, unless your into star gazing or collecting bugs. If the GW version of wargaming isn't your cup of tea, stop drinking. Just don't expect to chastise others. This is the major issue I see prevalent on Dakka. GW players are made out to be lemmings, however its not like GW players are saying play GW or you suck. It's a one way ridicule and its down right old and nauseating.
Stephen Bond wrote:You're in the hobby= You pay for the hobby in my opinion. The people that complain about the price just confirms for me that it takes all sorts to make the world go round. As long as they dont ruin my Warhammer experience then i have no quarrel with them
You mean Wargaming? The hobby that has been around since before GW existed? Oh, that's right, you mean the HHHobby, a false construct created by GW and it's white knights.
Thank you for your constructive contribution to the thread...
Thank you for your sincerity...
Poda and Ratbot etc. have all shown the like for like in the Wargaming hobby GW models are stupidly expensive for what you need for a legal game. This "Hobbies are expensive" line is getting pretty tired. Hobbies do not have to be expensive nor does a company providing models for a wargame have to blatantly price gouge you just to participate in it in the way they intended.
I believe at the end of the day it really doesn't matter what we think ... we who enjoy GW games are like cattle to the slaughter. I think the problem is we who play war games feel like they care about the community they helped build and forget that they are still a $$$ making company and just like gas prices they can and will charge what they can get away with because no matter what people will pay them. And lets be honest with ourselves at least it isn't real crack we are spending our money on just plastic crack lol
short version- prices are a little steep i dont mind but the buy in cost i feel is WAY to high although i do think black reach and island of blood are a great way to get people into the game 2 people split the box its 50 bucks a person and they can both try it out for LESS THAN A VIDEO GAME so over all i think its fine.
splitting the cost of the box does work, but, again, as mentioned above, you still have to take into account other minimum factors. Once you add paint, glue, the miminum army requirement (+$40 or 50 for the box of infantry, and another, what, $30 for the codex?), the price starts to rack up over the cost of a video game. Then there's the fact that there's only one core rulebook. This is fine if it's being split inside one household, but lets assume its two friends who will both want their own copy of the rules. Gotta rack on another... geeze, i think $50? maybe $60? Were alot closer to $120/person once everything is said and done.
now GRANTED, you do raise a valid point that it gets you INTO the game, but it doesnt give you a playable army to KEEP playing, so that factor has to be added to it.
I will also give you the benefit of the doubt, given that video games are now half-assed products that are released unfinished, and "addons" that fix the game or make it worse cost $15-30, and there's usually 2 addons, so we are looking at a price range of $90-$120 for a video game. So, speaking with respect to basic army vs video game: prices are about on par. One difference though, is that as a videogame ages on the market, it's price declines, so this is another factor to consider.
I'm not sure that video-games are a valid comparison. Smoking now... now that is a valid comparison. You can drop big bucks on some fine cigars, and smoke them away, and the taxes keep driving the cost up. Like miniatures, it's bad for the enviroment because of all the smoke and gak (and waste product, those sprues have quite a bit of wastage), and both hobbies suffer from loonies moralizing those enjoying the particular hobby as well as the manufacturers.
yeah no i certainly am not saying the prices are perfect or even reasonable im simply saying its stupid expensive to get into the game and thats not even really getting to a playable point like i mentioned. my mentioning of video games was to simply give an example of getting into prices i mean GW almost seems reasonable when you look at how much time youll get out of your minis and how much fun youll have painting and playing vrs the less than 20hour gameplay that video games have these days and the dull minded online play.
smoking is pointless period. never understood it -.- so i cant really relate. i mean i can understand someone that smokes weed every now an again or a few times a week but cigs confuse me no true high and they harm your body. NOT TRYING TO START A IS SMOKING BAD WAR
i think if they cut prices by 15-20% across the board it would be ALOT better and people wouldnt be so ify about starting into the hobby/game.
its not THAT bad though if you know you like it especially if you love painting. i mean ill spend 100 on my WOC battle force and im painting it up so lets see if i dont count paint im gonna get about 2.5 hours per warrior x12 of painting time about 3hours per knight x5 and about an hour per marauder x20 and like 30 min to paint wolves x10 since they are easy to paint even to a good standard to paint to my current standard so from my 100 bucks ive gotten 70 hours of enjoyment from the painting ALONE + any games ive played at the ~500 mark thats pretty good to me that easily out does the dollar per hour of fun/enjoyment of most things in life for me atleast and paint um yeah paint is expensive if you look atit as a whole but individual colors are well priced 2.50$ for a VMC bottle isnt too bad.
really id just like to see the prices drop 10-15% and id be really happy
there are soem advantages to playing with friends or fam in this game though i got my brother a box of ogres by selling my death corpes and now hes painting them up to play and we can share armys too so he can play my chaos and IG and i can play his ogres so we have 3 armys so if you have 3 friends that each have 1 army you can play each others and have a nice variety ! just some thoughts for ways to get more for less!
bottom line for me is if you are enjoying it its worth it. lifes hard to enjoy so we shouldnt be to hard on the prices of things that we do enjoy
Daedricbob wrote:If they closed all the GW shops, and thus removed their major overhead, they could sell the models much, much cheaper.
If they shut down all their stores they would be reliant on various LGS to promote their product, and they’d have to start showing up to trade shows and whatnot to ‘get the news out’.
In doing so GW would have to acknowledge that they are part of the greater miniature wargaming hobby, rather than a HHHobby unto themselves. I don’t think they’re willing to do that just yet.
Daedricbob wrote:If they closed all the GW shops, and thus removed their major overhead, they could sell the models much, much cheaper.
If they shut down all their stores they would be reliant on various LGS to promote their product, and they’d have to start showing up to trade shows and whatnot to ‘get the news out’.
In doing so GW would have to acknowledge that they are part of the greater miniature wargaming hobby, rather than a HHHobby unto themselves. I don’t think they’re willing to do that just yet.
This.
However, I see it as the best possible move for them, at least in North America. Again, this is something that many Europeans don't seem to know, but in the US, most people play their tabletop games in independent stores, and there are loads and loads of independent shops in the US, and relatively few GWs. Furthermore, most of these GWs are one-man operations with, at best, a single table suitable for playing games on, whereas there are at least two independent stores that I've been to, and at least two that I have not, within 20 minutes of where I live that have half a dozen or more tables. There is a single GW store within that same radius. It is small and has no room to play, and obviously only carries GW products that it sells at retail price, whereas these other stores carry many different products, not just miniatures but card games, board games, and comic books.
The vast majority of American (and I would assume Canadian) players do not really use GW stores. Over the past year or so I've read about dozens of GW stores in the US closing, but I also hear about dozens opening in different locations. It seems to be madness to me. Furthermore, almost all of these stores are run by a single individual, so it's not like they can help many people at once.
If I was GW I would stop being so afraid of the competition, close all North American shops, and let the independent stores do their job. Then, since they'd be saving a ton of overhead, as these stores are usually in pricy locations (in my experience anyway), they could reduce the price of their stuff (even a little bit, say 10%) and I bet that would get TONS of former players back into the game and help attract new ones. Really, from what I've read, they have an insane profit margin on their products, but a staggering amount gets eaten by overhead costs of running these stores, stores that simply do not work in North America.
Now, to prospective stockholders who don't really understand miniature gaming, it might look bad ("You closed ALL your stores and fired a couple hundred people!?") but this can easily be explained as adapting to the market place by abandoning an outdated and costly model, I would think, and I would also think the vastly increased profits in the next IR report would help offset that.
My answer is simple.... or maybe not. And its sortof about economics.
People will always buy what they can afford if they think it is worth it. The time we have in our lives is directly exchangeable for currency. Don't believe me? when you're at work, you make money. If it were not for the money, you probably wouldnt be there. erego, you invest a portion of your life, which you otherwise wouldn't, in exchange for the currency that tends to be necessary to enjoy the remaining time in your life. If you dedicated your free time to more work, you'd make more money. We sacrifice time for the money it take to enjoy the rest of our time. This crap about money doesnt buy you happiness is... just crap. Having money won't guarantee happiness, but not having it will almost certainly guarantee UNhappiness, or starvation with a smile on your face.
That said, 40K models ARE quite expensive, when you consider the materials required to produce them. In addition to the tangible matters of physical materials, there's the factor of the incalculable amounts of man-hours it took to dream up, actually sculpt both models and ideas, and make them physical things, rather than thoughts. In the end, we all probably dump buckets more money every quarter into GW than they spend annually. But this is not the point.
As I have told many of my friends who do not play at all, it is worth it to me, so I DO buy what I can afford, when I can. The way I see it is this:
Roughly 30-60 bucks is what I'd spend at the bar any night of the week IF I went. That is roughly what it costs for the majority of the models out there. And I cant RE-drink my drinks. 40K is an investment. I enjoy taking the time to model, paint, and play armies. I gain satisfaction from many different aspects of the hobby. And all told, my monthly 40K expenditures are FAR less than what I would spend at the bar if I had nothing better to do (i.e. paint or model).
What am I trying to say? Warhammer is one of those things in which you invested time at work, to make the money, to buy the models, to enjoy in your remaining time. By all means, be aware of the prices, lest you find yourself making a POOR investment. If they are too high, and don't guarantee an equally substantial amount of happiness, then think back on this my friends: Why would you pay 3X points for a unit, when you can spend 1X the points and get better results?
Sound familiar? We're talking about opportunity cost here people. The same thing you wrack your brain over every time a new codex drops and you're drooling like you're pants-on-head stupid trying to compile a new army list. And guess what... YOU LOVE IT. If theyre too pricey, be aware, and act in a manner that you see fit. If that means jumping ship, proceed. Those people around me that "cry" about the price, aren't wrong or right, they're investors, and list-builders the same. If you dont see the opportunity, avoid the cost. Bitch about it if you see fit. I've run the numbers, and its worth it to me in so many ways. But thats just me.
Btw, I, myself don't agree with the pricing. But there are alot of things in this world that I don't like that I can't control. I manage to sleep at night regardless. Enjoy.
On the other hand, here in the UK it's a different picture. There are more Independents opening these days, but there are still not as many as there are GWs. It's in GWs interests for the customer not to know about other companies making stuff - if a couple of kids go into a game store and look for something to start playing, which one are they most likely to choose? If the store clerk is honest, then they will get started on some kind of skirmish game that requires less initial expenditure to get started.
It's why you get a load of new users on Dakka every week who come here I think largely unaware that there is a larger wargaming industry out there beyond the big GW. Their reaction is then either:
a) Wow those other models are cool, I might try those as well.
b) They get all defensive and go into a rage, usually after someone has applied a needle to the edge of the GW-world bubble. Hopefully, they calm down enough to not get banned.
If GW closes its stores it will lose the one big draw and big advantage it has over the competition, which is the ability to give the impression of something close to a monopoly to new customers. Arguably they enjoy less of an advantage now than they have done for at least the last 15 years or so, with the wealth of new games being released constantly, but it is an important advantage nonetheless.
Daedricbob wrote:If they closed all the GW shops, and thus removed their major overhead, they could sell the models much, much cheaper.
Would this be a good thing?
Absolutely... In my area there are no actual GWs (well their national HQ is across the state from me) in my area... At one shop I frequent, they have more non-GW game nights/days than they do GW games. In talking to the guy when I was there earlier this week, he was tellin' me how at least in their little shop, they have seen an "explosion" of games alternate to 40k or Fantasy, and as of yet he doesn't know why. I suggested that perhaps it was the prices that GW are asking for their products.
My wife and I are both gamers, we by and large budget for minis, paints and rule books, etc. With this most recent price increase, I told her that I'd be no longer getting any GW minis (even at discount rates), I'll only be going for the codices and rule books to keep my game current... And with that, I looked for alternative games out there.... We just started playing Malifaux, and when the minis get here, I'll be trying out Hell Dorado, and Infinity.... Yes, there are ways of making wargaming less expensive than it could be, but for the standard "shop sized" games that GW has "balanced" for, 40k has become largely unreasonable for me to continue to support.
As for the OP, the only "influence" others have had was when I looked in the Dakka Discussions page and saw a thread announcing that the GW price increase had come.. I didn't even read the thread until after I had gone to the GW website to see for myself.
Of course the only thing is that most 40k armies you need many many times more models that gaming systems such as Infinity (unless you play GK of course). But this is about the only issue and if you want small Infinity sized games then you can equally play 500-750 point 40k games for the same price with some 40k armies.
Argh, feth me, I should really just have this friggin saved in a word file every time someone brings up this argument:
GW games aren't designed or balanced around such small match ups. It's designed and balanced around ~1500 point armies. If you play the games the way they're designed, using the models created for the games, Games Workshop is ultimately more expensive.
No it's not. The majority of games I encounter are 1000 points. Anything over 2000 points I find a real drag and don't think the game is designed for anything over that unless you want to play Apocalypse.
Sure, 500-750 point games are not all that exciting to say the least, but it seems you and other people seem to want GW to provide 50-60 models so you can play your 1000+ point games at the same price as 10 Infinity models. That is never going to happen. What actually do you want from them?
deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:it makes me proud that I'm part of a hobby that values it's products and intellectual property properly.
To me it's like wanting a steak. I can go to Mortons and get an awesome Prime Rib for $60 and if I can afford it, I'll get my moneys worth. If you can't afford the steak, then you are going to argue that The Sizzler's $9.99 steak is just as good and that Mortons is overpriced and how dare they charge so much for beef. Bottom line, it's better quality..prepared by better chefs...and the experience is better.
That's GW, yes...it's a $60 steak....but man, it tastes pretty good and if you can afford it...it's worth every penny.
When people complain about how expensive GW is, I tell them how much it is to fill up my Ford Truck...it's the price of a battleforce. I'll eat that Mortons steak every day of the week TBH.
and how many points worth of models do you need for a decent game? 40k Requires quite a bit more points, which translates into quite a bit more purchases. There is also a cost-to-effect ratio...
I already covered this in my original post so you wasted your time arguing when I agree with you...
you honestly think GW tanks are superior in quality?
Yes I do. If not in quality then I prefer the look of them. Simple as that. If that makes me ignorant in your eyes then that kind of proves that there is sometimes a degree of pretentiousness amongst those that constantly like to bitch about GW and talk up 'alternative' gaming systems like Infinity. It's the same as those god awful 'indie kids'. I'm not saying you are necessarily guilty of this so don't be offended, but I feel a lot of people are.
On a side note If you have found anything superior or equal that I could use for my IG armoury then please do link me as I am always looking for models.
Key word here is some not all, and even then, the armies available to you with the kind of budget we are talking of are entirely non-competitive. A space marine army maxed out at 500 points consists of two tac squads and a captain. The AOBR kit at L61.50 + tac squad at L23.00 makes a total of L84.50, and you're still without a codex. WM with rulebook runs you L80.95.... I really don't understand where you are getting your numbers from.
Yes some not all. Again you seem to expect that prices should be equal all round for every army not matter how many models an army needs. It's not like you don't have a choice on what army to collect. You could easily collect Grey Knights (15 models can make a 1000 point list easily) if you were that bothered about pricing. The fact is you have a choice in 40k to build big armies (IG, Orks etc) or small ones (GK, SM). In infinity you don't, so it's a bit pointless comparing them. If you want a game with only 10 models then you can play Infinity or one of the 'alternative' systems. Your choice.
What do you want GW to do? Reduce every 40k army to 10 models too? That is hardly fair.
Of course then you have the numerous shops selling all GW products brand new at 25% discounts. It's not as if these are a rarity. Ebay is even better. And second hand is wonderfully cheap.
Honestly the reason I don't bitch very much is because I have opted to go with ebay and the online stores that offer 25%+ discounts and so get everything much cheaper with MINIMUM EFFORT. Even paint stripping is remarkably easy.
I don't get why people who cry about GW prices don't just do the same.
so if GW prices are worse all around, and the quality is worse all around, then, logically speaking, the gripe is justified, because GW keeps feeding the market it's excrement telling everyone it's gourmet chocloate. The fact is that since GW opened up the market, other's have entered after it, and their quality of product is better, more affordable and better planned out. Further, GW's systems are utterly and entirely unbalanced. GW will always have a following comprised entirely of whiners because it advertises to kids, punts out the old loyal diehards and mistreats them as customers, and makes it hard for kids to keep playing by pushing the prices up so high.
No offence, but i've heard this ALL before back in the 90's when I first got into 40k, every criticism was the same. Yet GW got bigger than I ever imagined it would by the time I started playing it again last year. If it was that unbalanced it would've collapsed during those 15-20 years.
except that the consumer market is waking up, and getting very irate at the fact that there are so many other games, manufacturers and systems out there which match or exceed GW for price and quality. The consumers are irate with the fact that while they would like to stay with GW, GW's behavior, pricing or antics are not matched by any other company on the market, which is in effect pushing the customer base flying to other companies.
Again, heard it all before decades ago: "The prices are too high and the consumer base is getting so pissed off that they will go elsewhere" etc etc.
Ultimately as I have said I am by no means saying GW are perfect: Finecast problems, paint is overpriced etc. And people have every right to complain about this.
But I recognise that it is a luxury product and I recognise that I have a CHOICE to buy discount models, second hand models, or even switch to an alternative gaming system like Infinity if I want too. I am a 28 year old student and pretty broke all the time, but the fact is I have the choice to make it much more affordable and it's with minimal effort that I can do this.
Of course the only thing is that most 40k armies you need many many times more models that gaming systems such as Infinity (unless you play GK of course). But this is about the only issue and if you want small Infinity sized games then you can equally play 500-750 point 40k games for the same price with some 40k armies.
Argh, feth me, I should really just have this friggin saved in a word file every time someone brings up this argument:
GW games aren't designed or balanced around such small match ups. It's designed and balanced around ~1500 point armies. If you play the games the way they're designed, using the models created for the games, Games Workshop is ultimately more expensive.
No it's not. The majority of games I encounter are 1000 points. Anything over 2000 points I find a real drag and don't think the game is designed for anything over that unless you want to play Apocalypse.
Sure, 500-750 point games are not all that exciting to say the least, but it seems you and other people seem to want GW to provide 50-60 models so you can play your 1000+ point games at the same price as 10 Infinity models. That is never going to happen. What actually do you want from them?
Your local meta sounds very different from the rest of the world. I used to live in upstate New York. 1500-2000 point games were the norm. Here in LA, it seems 1500 to 2000 point games are the norm. I don't have the rulebook on me, but I could've sworn up and down it mentions 1500 point games as ideal.
I never said anything about games bigger than 2000 points, and I never said I want them to provide me a 40K army at Infinity prices.
Why is it Mantic can sell miniatures at about half the price of GW miniatures?
I've even priced it out, 4 Undead Characters, 50 Zombies, 80 Skeletons (60 Normal and 20 "elite"), and 10 Cavalry for about $250 compared to GW's $450. I'd buy GW minis by the truckload if they were similarly priced. EDIT: Actually, 60 Zombies.
40k/GW offers a gaming system that offers the consumer the chance to collect armies that has hundreds of models, if they can afford it. But it also offers armies that are smaller and more affordable. It's your choice.
Infinity offers a gaming system that offers small 10 model armies and there is no option to field ridiculously large armies.
Why did you start playing 40k if you didn't like the prices? It's kind of akin to someone buying cocaine and then complaining about the prices. "Oh, but I like it too much to stop buying it. How unfair!" ... Or someone buying a computer game and then complaining about the fact you need to buy a memory upgrade for your computer to get the absolute best graphics out of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RatBot wrote:Your local meta sounds very different from the rest of the world. I used to live in upstate New York. 1500-2000 point games were the norm. Here in LA, it seems 1500 to 2000 point games are the norm. I don't have the rulebook on me, but I could've sworn up and down it mentions 1500 point games as ideal..
Rest of the world being "Not America"? Psh...Come on...
Actually I have noticed on Vassal 40k the American's on there seem to prefer higher points games compared to Europeans. No idea why that is or if there is any actual truth to it statistically. But each to their own, it depends what games you enjoy. Just because it recommends 1500 point games doesn't necessarily mean that any less or more is worse or better.
....because when I started an army cost about half as much as it does now.
And fething hell, I mentioned Infinity ONCE. Enough about fething Infinity.
Fine, let's compare to a company with a similar model of "large numbers of plastic models", Mantic:
2000 points of GW Vampire Counts might be something like
-a Vampire Lord ($18)
-a BSB, ($19)
-a Necromancer ($15).
From Mantic, I can get a four pack of characters for $30.
-~60 Zombies. $105 from GW. $80 from Mantic
-~2x30 Skeletons $148.50 from GW $75 from Mantic.
-20 Grave Guard. $82.50 from GW. $25 from Mantic.
-10 Black Knights. $66 from GW. $45 from Mantic.
TOTAL: $465 from GW. $255 from Mantic.
THAT'S what I want from GW. Hell, it could even be more expensive than Mantic. But not almost 50% more expensive.
EDIT: Apologies, only skimmed over name and flag and got yours mixed up with someone else, dunno what the UK meta looks like.
I'll do that entire list again in GBP, if you'd like. I'll do it even if you wouldn't.
2000 points of GW Vampire Counts might be something like
-a Vampire Lord (9.50GBP)
-a BSB, (11GBP)
-a Necromancer (9GBP)
From Mantic, I can get a four pack of characters for 18GBP.
-~60 Zombies. 82.50GBP from GW. 67.50GBP from Mantic
-~2x30 Skeletons 93GBP from GW 42GBP from Mantic.
-20 Grave Guard. 51GBP from GW. 14GBP from Mantic.
-10 Black Knights. 40GBP from GW. 25GBP from Mantic.
I'm willing to bet that if you levelled the playing field 100% in terms of price and customer bases, GW would still sell more than its contemporaries.
From what I read in the forums it's like people believe they got to the top through sheer luck.
Price rises just remind many of us that we can't have everything we want right now, that's all. I'd like 3 dreadnoughts immediately, it doesn't make GW a load of c***s because I can't afford them immediately.
Look, if you prefer Mantic models and honestly think they are of equal or superior quality or just plain prefer them to GW, more power to you and i'm genuinely glad you are happy with Mantic etc.
I have personally not seen anything that tops or equals a model like say the Ork Warboss, but if you are happy then fine.
I have basically found a way to cut costs of 40k that are acceptable for me. I managed to build a 2000 point IG army for about 200 quid. That to me is not bad at all. Sure, some are second hand but with minimal effort you wouldn't know it.
I personally do not feel the Corporation Army models in Mantic - for example - come anywhere near the quality of Imperial Guard.
Compare that to Heavy Weapons squad from GW: £24.00
Then compare that to a shop offering 25% off, which are EVERYWHERE: £18.00
There is hardly any difference and honestly I feel in this case GW product wins hands down in cost-value-quality. Even without the 25% discount it isn't 50%+ more expensive than you are making out.
I used Mantic for some VC stand-ins and the models made me feel a little empty inside. No variety, cheap-feeling, arrived in an old VHS box and fixed to the base. It's definitely sub-AOBR
Even without the 25% discount it isn't 50%+ more expensive than you are making out.
Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I said "almost 50% more expensive". Almost 50% quite literally means that it isn't quite 50%. It's a bit less than 50%. That is decidedly not "50%+".
Those 154 GW models are, all together, almost 50% more expensive than the equivalent 154 Mantic models are all together. Even with a 25% discount, the GW models are, total, still ~25% more expensive. If you feel that GW's models are so much better than Mantic's that you're willing to pay ~25% more for them, then more power to you, I guess.
If you want to take the models with the biggest price gap to pad up your statistics then go ahead.
I am willing to pay 30% more? No you see, because I pay 0.50p more for my brand-new models (so about 1%), not 30%.
That said, I would pay 30% more if it came down to it, because they are 30% better. As Davylove21 points out Mantic are (in this case at least) an inferior product.
Yeah. I can most definitely live with that.
I just find it sad because if people put as much effort into protesting about prices of things we actually need to survive as human beings that they do into complaining about GW prices the world would probably be a slightly better place. Or not.
Nonsense, if I really wanted to pad the numbers, I'd've taken Blood Knights or something. I simply took the models I'd use in a theoretical VC army and their Mantic equivalents. It is a cold hard fact that the retail cost of the Mantic army is a bit more than half of the GW army.
As for padding, I could level a similar charge against you, that you are deliberately cherry-picking models where the gap is much smaller. That's why I figured the best way to do it is to compare an army of mantic miniatures vs a similar army of GW miniatures, and the total cost at retail thereof.
Are Black Knights and Grave Guard completely unused? Is there some magic away around the fact that GW skeletons come 10 to a box for a bit less than $25 retail and Mantic skeletons come 20 to a box for $25?
And if you really think GW models are so much better that they're worth 30% more, I'm certainly not going to convince you that they aren't any more than you're gonna convince me they are.
The fact still remains: by the time you've completed your army, the Mantic miniatures are significantly cheaper than the GW miniatures.
Okay well whatever, I chose to use the heavy weapon squads because I collect IG and it was the first price comparison I looked at.
You are right we could sit here all day and price compare - some are 50% higher, some are 30% and some are undoubtedly equal.
For me at least it seems to be between 1-30% price difference. For me at least that is acceptable because for me the quality is generally better. And for me that is the end of discussion, since my original point has been proven that people tend to exaggerate the price differences between GW and alternative systems.
So yes, there IS a serious discrepancy between GW and Mantic prices.
Why the hell do people think that the discount web stores apply to GW somehow magically ONLY applies to GW products?
So my original point has been proven that pretty much every other tabletop game is, overall, cheaper than GW, and people will go to great lengths to justify GW's outrageous prices.
Again, I don't doubt you really feel that GW's miniatures are worth the cost. That's your opinion, and it's fine. But don't act like there's no difference between the cost of playing GW games and the cost of playing other games, even games on the same scale.
you know i forgot about Kngs of WAR i was following them on beastofwar for a long time and jsut forgot about it but after looking at the minis they are quiet nice anyone whos played the game? if you do or have if you could pm me about how it was or is i would much appreciated it might be something id liek to give a go 141 model starter box for the undead army for 100 bucks easily gets my attention with how well the sculpts look thanks!
FifteenHours wrote:And for me that is the end of discussion, since my original point has been proven that people tend to exaggerate the price differences between GW and alternative systems.
Proven? Ok.
And in any case, the people who usually point that out often conveniently forget that not every system requires as much stuff as 40K.
So while you may have two similar models that cost a similar price from two different companies, if the one game requires 10 of them in a unit and the other one only 5, then that’s what should be looked at.
RatBot wrote:I've never played the game, and TBH it doesn't look all that interesting, but you could always use the models to play WHFB.
thats a shame was hoping it would be neat to break up the 40k and fantasy im still gonna find a store that plays it and check it out though wouldnt cost alot to get a army for it and models are nice enough the painting is largely why i like these games have built models my whole life
FifteenHours wrote:
There is hardly any difference and honestly I feel in this case GW product wins hands down in cost-value-quality. Even without the 25% discount it isn't 50%+ more expensive than you are making out.
Actually you both are calculating the price difference wrong, GW is 82.4% more expensive.
Mantic being 255 and GW 465
465-255=210
210/255=0.8235 (etc)
Mantic costs a bit over half as much would be the proper way to phrase if that's what you were going for.
Just a quick post.
Yes that actualy happened.(But I exagerated the level of tears,and paraphrased a bit. )
AFAIK the KoW rules set and army lists are free to download, from Mantic.
The rules only run to a dozen pages, and take less than an hour to learn fully.
(We just tried out a few games with proxies/cardboard bases, and liked the clean and elegant rules design.)
We dont bother with the 'chess clock' but tend to play more senario driven games.But the level of game ballance and internal consistancy make playing narrative or competative play pleasing ....In our experiance.
And if you buy Army Deals from Mantic, including minatures made from plastic,white metal and plastic-resin ,(like 'Finecast' but without the quality problems! )The average £99 deal has between 100 and 140 minatures!
If you dont like Mantics minatures asthetic fair enough.(Its totaly subjective.)
FifteenHours wrote:
There is hardly any difference and honestly I feel in this case GW product wins hands down in cost-value-quality. Even without the 25% discount it isn't 50%+ more expensive than you are making out.
Actually you both are calculating the price difference wrong, GW is 82.4% more expensive.
Mantic being 255 and GW 465
465-255=210
210/255=0.8235 (etc)
Mantic costs a bit over half as much would be the proper way to phrase if that's what you were going for.
...You, sir, are correct. Makes it seem even more ludicrous.
But Surtur, he totally proved That GW actually costs about the same as Mantic, because everyone knows that because you can get GW at 25% off retail, their prices are reasonable, especially because you can't get Mantic at 25% off from those very same retailers.
Oh. Wait. Yes you can.
So, fine, that GW army, using said retailers, is something closer to $350 (348.75), and the Mantic one closer to $200 (191.25). Practically the same price, right!? I'm also clearly padding the numbers by using commonly used units in an army that, IIRC from my WHFB days, is not exactly uncommon.
Compare that to Heavy Weapons squad from GW: £24.00
Then compare that to a shop offering 25% off, which are EVERYWHERE: £18.00
There is hardly any difference and honestly I feel in this case GW product wins hands down in cost-value-quality. Even without the 25% discount it isn't 50%+ more expensive than you are making out.
Did you know there are discount sellers for Mantic products when you made that post?
And yes I guess OP's thread title is pretty effective,
I wonder how many seconds before ban and deletion if I made a thread called " How does people white knighting GW pricing effect you etc etc"
The one thing that bothers me is how bias the world is. The price... not so much.
Even I think GW prices are justified ( yes its expensive, but people are still buying it. )
lol to be honest now this thread has just made me hate people that moan about GW pricing...
Bunch of middle-class kids moaning about the cost of their shiny little pieces of metal (or plastic) while billions live in desperate poverty... Please, get some perspective.
FifteenHours wrote:lol to be honest now this thread has just made me hate people that moan about GW pricing...
Bunch of middle-class kids moaning about the cost of their shiny little pieces of metal (or plastic) while billions live in desperate poverty... Please, get some perspective.
When is the last time you donated to charity to make such claim?
I often donate to charity when I save some money via discount.
Are you saying we shouldn't enjoy a more affordable hobby till we solve world poverty?
Just so you know, affording something is one thing.
Justifying price's worth is completely different.
I can have 20 million dollars and I will still think GW is expensive.
Just like I bet you'll think a $1 pebble is expensive.
There's always playing all of them, none of them are exclusive.
Then the tired old point "disliking GW =/= disliking 40k/WHFB". I agree though it does get tiring watching both sides yelling "me right", clearly the loudest one wins. Hence why I don't really participate all that much in these threads.
FifteenHours wrote:
n0t_u wrote:Then why waste time complaining about those who complain about trivial things instead of going out and helping those people?
Because when I read threads like this I want to climb a clocktower instead...
Then just don't read them, it's surprisingly easy and saves a lot of unneeded stress. These do pop up all the time after all and once you've seen one you've basically seen them all.
I find there's a very easy way to look at the problem. A good army may cost £300-ish. If you want to start any hobby, this is pretty much the minimum cost for good equipment. A good guitar will cost £300 minimum. One of my friends once explained that his best fishing rod was £1000. So it's not that it's expensive. In fact, for a hobby, this can be considered relatively cheap.
FifteenHours wrote:Honestly, I went to a new gaming store this weekend that opened up recently selling Infinity and Warmachine stuff. I found the models to be barely any cheaper than Games Workshop 40k models.
Also, most non-gaming model kits around are not much cheaper than Games Workshop models. e.g an Airfix type of tank will cost £15.00-20.00 while a GW Chimera will cost 20 quid and a LRBT will cost £30.00 but are usually superior models.
Of course the only thing is that most 40k armies you need many many times more models that gaming systems such as Infinity (unless you play GK of course). But this is about the only issue and if you want small Infinity sized games then you can equally play 500-750 point 40k games for the same price with some 40k armies.
I admit I used to be "bitching at GW prices" all the time, but honestly looking at competing gaming systems and models they aren't all that bad. Sure, some things are not acceptable; like finecast is poor in my opinion for the price and the price of paints is not good value for money, with Vallejo being cheaper and of equal quality imo. Also the way they have treated fanfilms and fiction in the past has been questionable. So I still have a lot of criticism and scrutiny for them.
I think the fact so many people crying about the high prices had made me look into it more objectively and found out that actually the crying is often not justifiable.
Warmachine stuff is as overpriced as GW stuff. The size of the game shouldn't matter.
Infinity is a smaller company but still overpriced.
The non-gaming kits you are flat out wrong about. The amount of detail on those makes them worth the money. (or at least in my small experience with them they were)
The size of the game shouldn't matter when considering the value of a miniature.
Some company's like the new Hawk Wargames and Maelstrom Games's Banebeasts/Banelords do some amazing unique sculpts with great quality resin and the prices are more justifiable.
But even they cost too much. Historical's have pricing right.,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p_gray99 wrote:I find there's a very easy way to look at the problem. A good army may cost £300-ish. If you want to start any hobby, this is pretty much the minimum cost for good equipment. A good guitar will cost £300 minimum. One of my friends once explained that his best fishing rod was £1000. So it's not that it's expensive. In fact, for a hobby, this can be considered relatively cheap.
To be fair, fishing can get you fish and you can win money in competitions.
But you cant really win squat with GW because they are too stupid and lazy to create a good clear set of rules made for tournament play and they are too stupid and lazy to support a proper tournament scene.
FifteenHours wrote:lol to be honest now this thread has just made me hate people that moan about GW pricing...
Bunch of middle-class kids moaning about the cost of their shiny little pieces of metal (or plastic) while billions live in desperate poverty... Please, get some perspective.
When is the last time you donated to charity to make such claim?
I often donate to charity when I save some money via discount.
Are you saying we shouldn't enjoy a more affordable hobby till we solve world poverty?
Just so you know, affording something is one thing.
Justifying price's worth is completely different.
I can have 20 million dollars and I will still think GW is expensive.
Just like I bet you'll think a $1 pebble is expensive.
LunaHound wrote:Tried Google, cant find anything...
can explain to me directly? :3
Sorry, that was an inside joke with another user I was PM'ing (vladtheimpaler)
Actually on topic - I share the view that quite a few other dakka users have. When you entered the Hobby you were well aware that it was expensive. Now that I actually make salaried income, my spending ahs actually went up. Previously as a starving college student? Not as much!! People whine all the time about GW/Warhammer's prices. It is an internet forum, and that is what a lot of internet forums are for. Arguing POV, discussing matters, and whining a tad bit.
If you are financially unfit to wargame, then don't until you are. I blew the majority of money I was making at 16/17 when I started up 40k. If you can support your addiction go ahead. The products are getting better and better. Yes the price goes up. It is a worthwile hobby to get into, if you have the funds. Whining is something that happens on the internet and outside the FLGS. Who cares what other people say, it is your hobby and your money.
LunaHound wrote:
Just like I bet you'll think a $1 pebble is expensive.
I've seen some "pebbles" going for thousands of dollars.. they are usually surrounded by soft metallic materials as well.... I know during certain times of year, I'm sorta expected to buy some of these, so I guess women generally like these pebbles
FifteenHours wrote:lol to be honest now this thread has just made me hate people that moan about GW pricing...
Bunch of middle-class kids moaning about the cost of their shiny little pieces of metal (or plastic) while billions live in desperate poverty... Please, get some perspective.
Ohhh right I forgot no one is allowed to complain about anything short of starvation....... brilliant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FifteenHours wrote:
n0t_u wrote:Then why waste time complaining about those who complain about trivial things instead of going out and helping those people?
Because when I read threads like this I want to climb a clocktower instead...
Maybe you just need to take a step back and realize you are taking things a little to seriously.
Auxellion wrote:When you entered the Hobby you were well aware that it was expensive..[/b]
oo yes and no, but I see what you mean.
But now see it from the other side :'P
There has been like 2 price hikes atleast within the last 5 years, around 20% increase.
When I first started warhammer, you are right, it was tolerable.
However I ( assume ) this is why it hurts.
You simultaneously sit through and witness the price increase
while also having the increased prices rising near / beyond the threshold.
I imagine, that is what triggers the reaction, its logical.
When I was 16 - I made X every month
When I was 18 - I made X*1.5 every month
When I was 20 - I made X*3 every month
Now I'm 21 and I make X*10 or so every month
My income increases as I get older, as does my ability to spend. I simply don't mind the price increases. As an adult, if you want to buy a few items for your hobby, simply budget for it. I've argued in a few other threads about "Fluff" money and how 40k is cheaper then alternative Hobbies.
Would a speedball player complain about the amount of money they spend on paintballing? Golf? Going drinking 2-3 nights a week with the bros? Going to games every week or two with season tickets? dirt biking? Most hobbies are expensive. IMHO you get a more bang for your buck with 40k. I find the way they raised the prices unjustified, but I'm not a young kid anymore. As adults (I'm 21 so I'm still inbetween the adult and kid threshold) - we can make large purchases and allocate funds to support our hobby.
From what I've gathered and read a good majority of the users complaining tend to be in the 17-24 age area. Teens and College kids. When I was in college I barely had money to shell out for Warhammer products. Adults with careers really shouldn't have an issue with this hobby's prices. I think they whine more for the "Style" that GW goes about doing things and the lack of care/ignorance GW continues to show to the community. That I agree with. It's GW as a company, the products themselves are great!! (I won't go into Scale Tank Kits vs GW Leman Russ argument in terms of quality, but for the amount of supported miniatures the game has!)
Auxellion wrote:From what I've gathered and read a good majority of the users complaining tend to be in the 17-24 age area. Teens and College kids. When I was in college I barely had money to shell out for Warhammer products. Adults with careers really shouldn't have an issue with this hobby's prices.
Yep 100%
But I think GW targets children as their selling audience, so its hard to not whine.
I think they whine more for the "Style" that GW goes about doing things and the lack of care/ignorance GW continues to show to the community. That I agree with. It's GW as a company, the products themselves are great!! (I won't go into Scale Tank Kits vs GW Leman Russ argument in terms of quality, but for the amount of supported miniatures the game has!)
Yes, short termed business plan. Weird and smells of desperation to satisfy annual stock, but what do I know :'P
I can understand how someone could think that GW prices are ridiculous and possibly a waste of money but warhamms is not for everyone i suppose. It's a hobby and the cost is not cheap but compared to other hobbies it's not that expensive. For me, a single tac squad box will keep me busy for close to a month if not more with cutting, sanding, posing and glueing then the painting... so much painting. I think its actually cheaper than going to starbucks 3 times a week(depending on what you order). Plus there is a return on your investment so if you lose interest or financial situations change you have the ability to sell your warhamms and recoup some of the money. can't do that with starbucks.
Baldsmug wrote:I can understand how someone could think that GW prices are ridiculous and possibly a waste of money but warhamms is not for everyone i suppose. It's a hobby and the cost is not cheap but compared to other hobbies it's not that expensive. For me, a single tac squad box will keep me busy for close to a month if not more with cutting, sanding, posing and glueing then the painting... so much painting. I think its actually cheaper than going to starbucks 3 times a week(depending on what you order). Plus there is a return on your investment so if you lose interest or financial situations change you have the ability to sell your warhamms and recoup some of the money. can't do that with starbucks.
Exactly. I think people complain becaus
Edit: Something happened there. Nevermind, it wasn't that relevant anyway.
The OP asks: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the product.
The answer is: It shouldn't. Each person's price tolerance is determined by their financial situation and perception of value. The din of people crying that GW is too expensive, or people crying that the complainers should STFU is an outgrowth of like-minded people banding together on the internets seeking some kind of validation of their views.
My answer is: IMHO, GW products passed my threshold for acceptable prices a long time ago. I loved three things about the HHHobby.
1. Ability to customize your armies. The new "streamlined" codexes have one or two effective builds and the rest is just filler. This takes the joy out of tweaking lists, when half of the players choices units are uncompetitive.
2. Ability to convert. I love bashing kits together. Saddly, the high base cost of the kits is pushing the cost of even basic conversions (i.e. bashing 2 kits together) past $100 in Canada. For example, if the new Necron spider guy and the Talos were both in the $30-35 range, I'd have bashed them together into a daemon engine. Unfortunately, the actual cost to combine the two kits is a hefty $115.
3. I have an invisible price hobby barrier around the $50 mark and again at the $100 mark. If I'm getting lots of use out of the product I can sometimes push past this. The new PP 10 man box sets are an example of where the $80 price-point requires that I condition myself a bit before buying it - mostly that the amount of in-game use I'll get out of it will offset the cost. As I find my HHHobby time decreasing as I age, this offset is harder to justify - especially coupled with my disatisfaction with the state of the core rules, and the poor utility distribution across units in codexes. Due to my love of converting, when my basic squad + transports all jumped above $100 - this pretty much put the final nail in the coffin for me in terms of GW army purchases.
I still buy the odd paints and terrain however.
If GW makes a huge turnaround in 6th Edition and I find myself suddenly playing lots of 40k - There could be a resulting shift in my perception of "value for money" of GW product. Until then, GW product represents very "poor value for money" in my mind.
I can afford to buy a lot of other things with what I used to spend on 40k stuff. There's basically no looking back now.
My hobbies are thus:
1) Warmachine and board gaming
2) Disc Golf
Basically buying a lot of things for those 2 hobbies has been infinitely more fulfilling. To relate this to the OP, other people's commentary about the pricing didn't really effect my opinion of the products so much as empirical evidence.
Also when I think about the rumored price of the 6th Edition rulebook, it makes me want to play dystopian wars and not spend a chunk of cash on new rules for old minis.
RatBot wrote:EDIT: You know what? I was gonna leave it alone. If you think that GW models really are worth 30% than Mantic's, that's fine, that's your opinon.
But you had to sneak this in here:
my original point has been proven that people tend to exaggerate the price differences between GW and alternative systems.
So yes, there IS a serious discrepancy between GW and Mantic prices.
Why the hell do people think that the discount web stores apply to GW somehow magically ONLY applies to GW products?
So my original point has been proven that pretty much every other tabletop game is, overall, cheaper than GW, and people will go to great lengths to justify GW's outrageous prices.
Again, I don't doubt you really feel that GW's miniatures are worth the cost. That's your opinion, and it's fine. But don't act like there's no difference between the cost of playing GW games and the cost of playing other games, even games on the same scale.
How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Phototoxin wrote:Musical Instrument (barring Harmonica, tin whistle or Uklele!) £150-£400 ?
Whilst I've undoubtably spent more on miniatures, I've spend around £650 on my drum kit, and that's low because I bought a £700 kit reduced to £450 in a sale. Just to back up that statement / add a higher maximum band.
Oh, and I should add that my Dad has probably spent upwards of four grand on Roland electronic kits and accessories.
this figure is also seriously lowballing the sport of cycling, that 500 pounds you put would get you the most bare minimum Ti framed road bike... This does not include fit, helmet, and other accessories that are almost mandatory.
While I am not as deep into cycling as some, i am deeper than others.. I have spent over 3k on bike, plus 200 or so on fit, another 300 on shoes plus pedals, helmet, and another ridiculous amount on the spandex/lycra shorts and jerseys.
So yeah, I understand that compared to 40k, my cycling hobby is insanely expensive, but as others have pointed out the personal value of cycling still outweighs the monetary costs that I have had thus far.
Phototoxin wrote:Musical Instrument (barring Harmonica, tin whistle or Uklele!) £150-£400 ?
Whilst I've undoubtably spent more on miniatures, I've spend around £650 on my drum kit, and that's low because I bought a £700 kit reduced to £450 in a sale. Just to back up that statement / add a higher maximum band.
Oh, and I should add that my Dad has probably spent upwards of four grand on Roland electronic kits and accessories.
Yeah, 150 is some low end crap (or the $225ish). At $600 you'll have a respectable axe and amp (plus cables, tuner, but no fun stuff).
The OP asks: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the product.
The answer is: It shouldn't. Each person's price tolerance is determined by their financial situation and perception of value. The din of people crying that GW is too expensive, or people crying that the complainers should STFU is an outgrowth of like-minded people banding together on the internets seeking some kind of validation of their views.
Ultimately, this.
If you feel it's worth it, that's fine. Go nuts, fill a swimming pool with GW minis.
I just got very annoyed with FifteenHours' gross distortion of fact, is all. In terms of miniatures, GW isn't the most expensive, but in terms of amount spent to play a typical sized game (even in the book it says something like "1500-2000 points is good for an evening's game"), it is. And again, if you think it's worth it, then godspeed you. I do, in fact, like 40K as a game, and its background, and its miniatures. I just don't think it's worth $500+ for 'em, when I can get the same quantity of Mantic miniatures for 2/3 the price, or a full Warmachine army for half the price, or just play low model count non-GW games for less than $100.
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?
FifteenHours wrote:This whole argument makes no sense.
40k/GW offers a gaming system that offers the consumer the chance to collect armies that has hundreds of models, if they can afford it. But it also offers armies that are smaller and more affordable. It's your choice.
Infinity offers a gaming system that offers small 10 model armies and there is no option to field ridiculously large armies.
Why did you start playing 40k if you didn't like the prices? It's kind of akin to someone buying cocaine and then complaining about the prices. "Oh, but I like it too much to stop buying it. How unfair!" ... Or someone buying a computer game and then complaining about the fact you need to buy a memory upgrade for your computer to get the absolute best graphics out of it.
Fair point.
I play WFB, but the same principles apply. GW prices for their minis have reached a point where I think they are no longer worth the value, and so I purchase minis made by other companies to play WFB with. When my armies get upgraded, I will buy the new book; when the new edition comes out, again I will buy the new book so I can continue playing the game.
But do not mistake my love for the game for any sort of attachment to GW miniatures. I find them to be (in general) overpriced pieces of grimdark mediocrity. And frankly, GW miniatures are not necessary to play GW games.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RatBot wrote:....because when I started an army cost about half as much as it does now.
And fething hell, I mentioned Infinity ONCE. Enough about fething Infinity.
Fine, let's compare to a company with a similar model of "large numbers of plastic models", Mantic:
2000 points of GW Vampire Counts might be something like
-a Vampire Lord ($18)
-a BSB, ($19)
-a Necromancer ($15).
From Mantic, I can get a four pack of characters for $30.
-~60 Zombies. $105 from GW. $80 from Mantic
-~2x30 Skeletons $148.50 from GW $75 from Mantic.
-20 Grave Guard. $82.50 from GW. $25 from Mantic.
-10 Black Knights. $66 from GW. $45 from Mantic.
TOTAL: $465 from GW. $255 from Mantic.
I'll go you one better. My massive Mantic Dwarf army cost me around $275. Getting the equivalent pieces from GW would have cost $1100.
Any more questions?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p_gray99 wrote:I find there's a very easy way to look at the problem. A good army may cost £300-ish. If you want to start any hobby, this is pretty much the minimum cost for good equipment. A good guitar will cost £300 minimum. One of my friends once explained that his best fishing rod was £1000. So it's not that it's expensive. In fact, for a hobby, this can be considered relatively cheap.
How did you get this far without seeing my post on this subject?
I'll repeat it, just for you.
Yes, miniature wargaming as a hobby is pretty reasonable.
GW, as a miniature wargame company, is not reasonably priced for the value you are getting. Other manufacturers put out miniatures just as nice for far less.
Let's take cavalry for example. Older GW sets are $35 for 8, newer sets are $33 for 5. Perry charges about that much for 18!!! and they're just as nice, if with a different aesthetic.
Tell me again that GW is cheap as a miniature wargame company
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
I understand Mantic is a small operation by a couple of guys in England operating out of a basement. Just saying...
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?
It was a general statement. Where is Infinity modeled? Warpath? Do I need to go on?
Where are they manufactured? I don't own any Mantic or Corvus Belli miniatures, so I can't say.
You do need to go on. You're making the accusations, so how 'bout some evidence? I'm actually going to the game shop tonight, I'll be sure to check the various miniatures they have to see where they're made.
I'm talking about all the current cool club minis in general and the apparent cheap availability. Everything in a Wal-mart is made in China to keep costs down. American made products cost off the charts compared to child labor. I'm sure the same true with other economies.
Cheap isn't always better, it's cheap in most cases. There are exceptions.
Listen guys. Ever heard of Kyromek or Warzone? I was deeply into both of these games and others when they were released. They folded. I don't put a lot of faith in the fly by nights. One man opinion.
RatBot wrote:They're probably modeled in their home countries.
Where are they manufactured? I don't own any Mantic or Corvus Belli miniatures, so I can't say.
You do need to go on. You're making the accusations, so how 'bout some evidence? I'm actually going to the game shop tonight, I'll be sure to check the various miniatures they have to see where they're made.
Accusations? Really? Read my post. It's clearly a question not a statement. Whats wrong with you man?
"Accusation" was perhaps too strong a word. Like I said, I will, seriously, check at the shop tonight. I don't know if they have any Mantic or Corvus Belli, but they do have GW, Reaper, Wyrd, and Spartan Games minis.
Byte wrote:I'm talking about all the current cool club minis in general and the apparent cheap availability. Everything in a Wal-mart is made in China to keep costs down. American made products cost off the charts compared to child labor. I'm sure the same true with other economies.
Cheap isn't always better, it's cheap in most cases. There are exceptions.
Listen guys. Ever heard of Kyromek or Warzone? I was deeply into both of these games and others when they were released. They folded. I don't put a lot of faith in the fly by nights. One man opinion.
Like you I sometimes fear the same, and yes the list of failed wargame companies is a long and a sad one. Most notably the likes of Rackham, who I know are still much missed. Good news that some of their models are apparently returning, but it won't be what it once was.
On the other hand I like to think some of the newcomers will learn from their mistakes. No doubt some will fall by the wayside, but a lot of the companies starting now try to offer something new. They have to, otherwise no-one would buy them!
Corvus Belli have produced what are generally regarded as some of the finest examples of miniature sculpting in the industry - yes new technology has helped somewhat, but I struggle to think of a company that has consistently produced such good quality sculpts in the 20 or so years I have been involved in this hobby. They have also made, what I think, is a massive step-forward in rule systems and game mechanics which has taken some of the best elements of wargames over the years.
Mantic have made some very astute business decisions regarding a void in the miniature wargaming industry - namely the vast numbers of people who play GW games, yet are being priced out by them. Perhaps their new KoW system will offer some 'tighter' rulesets, as is Alessio Cavatore's way, for players who want something more akin to a tactical experience.
Flames of War have helped to popularise historical games - again, very cleverly setting themselves up as the 'go to' for older teenagers who are reaching 'that age' of not being comfortable seen playing with what might be regarded as toys. I might not be speaking a popular opinion there (and I know undoubtedly there are many other demographics who have gone to the game) but I speak from experience having worked in an independent store and seeing who was buying those games.
There are many other games out there, many of them again offering something new. I will say that modern technology offers a real chance for these new companies to survive, chiefly through use of the internet. How the hell did they manage 12-15 years ago before online communication become commonplace? The answer is: They didn't. Online blogs, forums, advertising are all new weapons in these companies arsenals - arguably they are necessary for any company to be able to survive in the GW-dominated marketplace. But, the times, they are a changin'.
I will be very, very surprised if most of the companies listed above (and others) are not still around in 5-10 years. At least, for the sake of wargaming. I would say that right now, with so many companies all producing great new rules, miniatures and ideas, all trying to take a piece of the pie, it has never been a better time to have wargaming and miniature collecting as a hobby, and I know I wish I had more time to try them all!
Byte wrote:I'm talking about all the current cool club minis in general and the apparent cheap availability. Everything in a Wal-mart is made in China to keep costs down. American made products cost off the charts compared to child labor. I'm sure the same true with other economies.
Cheap isn't always better, it's cheap in most cases. There are exceptions.
Listen guys. Ever heard of Kyromek or Warzone? I was deeply into both of these games and others when they were released. They folded. I don't put a lot of faith in the fly by nights. One man opinion.
Like you I sometimes fear the same, and yes the list of failed wargame companies is a long and a sad one. Most notably the likes of Rackham, who I know are still much missed. Good news that some of their models are apparently returning, but it won't be what it once was.
On the other hand I like to think some of the newcomers will learn from their mistakes. No doubt some will fall by the wayside, but a lot of the companies starting now try to offer something new. They have to, otherwise no-one would buy them!
Corvus Belli have produced what are generally regarded as some of the finest examples of miniature sculpting in the industry - yes new technology has helped somewhat, but I struggle to think of a company that has consistently produced such good quality sculpts in the 20 or so years I have been involved in this hobby. They have also made, what I think, is a massive step-forward in rule systems and game mechanics which has taken some of the best elements of wargames over the years.
Mantic have made some very astute business decisions regarding a void in the miniature wargaming industry - namely the vast numbers of people who play GW games, yet are being priced out by them. Perhaps their new KoW system will offer some 'tighter' rulesets, as is Alessio Cavatore's way, for players who want something more akin to a tactical experience.
Flames of War have helped to popularise historical games - again, very cleverly setting themselves up as the 'go to' for older teenagers who are reaching 'that age' of not being comfortable seen playing with what might be regarded as toys. I might not be speaking a popular opinion there (and I know undoubtedly there are many other demographics who have gone to the game) but I speak from experience having worked in an independent store and seeing who was buying those games.
There are many other games out there, many of them again offering something new. I will say that modern technology offers a real chance for these new companies to survive, chiefly through use of the internet. How the hell did they manage 12-15 years ago before online communication become commonplace? The answer is: They didn't. Online blogs, forums, advertising are all new weapons in these companies arsenals - arguably they are necessary for any company to be able to survive in the GW-dominated marketplace. But, the times, they are a changin'.
I will be very, very surprised if most of the companies listed above (and others) are not still around in 5-10 years. At least, for the sake of wargaming. I would say that right now, with so many companies all producing great new rules, miniatures and ideas, all trying to take a piece of the pie, it has never been a better time to have wargaming and miniature collecting as a hobby, and I know I wish I had more time to try them all!
RatBot wrote:They're probably modeled in their home countries.
Where are they manufactured? I don't own any Mantic or Corvus Belli miniatures, so I can't say.
You do need to go on. You're making the accusations, so how 'bout some evidence? I'm actually going to the game shop tonight, I'll be sure to check the various miniatures they have to see where they're made.
I'm looking at the packages right now. Mantic models are printed off in the UK. Corvus Belli models are manufactured in Spain. Privateer models are forged in the US. Spartan makes theirs in the UK as well.
Seriously, Byte, at least TRY to do a little research before making yourself look silly.
RatBot wrote:They're probably modeled in their home countries.
Where are they manufactured? I don't own any Mantic or Corvus Belli miniatures, so I can't say.
You do need to go on. You're making the accusations, so how 'bout some evidence? I'm actually going to the game shop tonight, I'll be sure to check the various miniatures they have to see where they're made.
I'm looking at the packages right now. Mantic models are printed off in the UK. Corvus Belli models are manufactured in Spain. Privateer models are forged in the US. Spartan makes theirs in the UK as well.
Seriously, Byte, at least TRY to do a little research before making yourself look silly.
It was just a question. Plain and simple. So questions are silly now? That's a productive approach. Move along.
swordbrotherjim wrote: How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products? How do you handle these people when you encounter them?
It makes me regret getting into a hobby filled with entitled whiners. I cant understand people who hate the price but drop $100 a month on plastic models.
Byte wrote:It was a general statement. Where is Infinity modeled? Warpath? Do I need to go on?
No you don't, because your Red Herring isn't all that important to the discussion at hand.
It was relevant to the post in this thread I was responding to. Did you even see it? After which I was attacked by a couple of members for asking a question. Classy.
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?
It was a general statement. Where is Infinity modeled? Warpath? Do I need to go on?
So I can get in on the general statement, you know how come China sell knock off GW model from GW own molds. Says alot there, need I go on...
Other peoples opinion will change mine, or they won't....like how things usually work... my own opinion however, is they are making us pay way too much for miniatures....just like action figures cost way too much, so I guess it's normal for companies to ask for that much for toys...but complaining about people "crying" won't change that, so its a waste of breath. Nothing changes in the end. They won't stop, and most likely, you won't stop either.
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?
It was a general statement. Where is Infinity modeled? Warpath? Do I need to go on?
So I can get in on the general statement, you know how come China sell knock off GW model from GW own molds. Says alot there, need I go on...
Yes you do, because that is bull gack. Chinese knock offs aren't from GW molds.
If these models were made in china I would not buy them, as they would not be as well made and thus not worth as much. They are made in the UK, however, and the quality is pretty high. GWs plastics are pretty good, though I have spotted an occasional defect and they were quick to send a replacement. If you've never dealt with Chinese produced parts on a professional level, you have no idea how terrible they are. It's true that we're paying a LOT of money for some little plastic soldiers, but at least they're well done, and you're sure of the quality when you buy them. Finecast is a different beast altogether, but I think a large part of it is the company trying to adjust to a new medium. In my experience, though, I wish the models were made in germany. Those guys can really make some high quality parts for anything you can throw at them.
I think GW is way over priced for the poor quality controll on the fine cast, Also there hasnt been that much inflation in the world to raise priced of a storm ravin 20% +. I think that they will lose a following soon if they dont get their head out of there asses. I make great money but I cant continue to buy more modles and new armies if they keep raising prices. So Ill keep what I have and if I want to play a new style of army Ill buy a warmachine army.
I personally think everything I've bought from GW was overpriced outside of the codices and rulebooks. I am comfortable paying thirty dollars for my codex, and I suppose I am alright with paying around fifty to sixty for the rulebook. It's somewhat over what I'd like, but not alarmingly so. And I guess a bit over three dollars for a pot of paint isn't outrageous either, but then I'm not savvy on paint. GW's miniatures, on the other hand, tend to be far outside of what I am willing to pay for. Terrain pieces, units, measuring and modeling tools, really all of them feel oftentimes double what I'd be willing to pay for, sometimes more. Most of my army pieces are bought second hand, from eBay or the like, and for models we don't have we tend to substitute with just a base and approximate.
It's a shame, because I think GW would get more business if they marketed it more broadly at a more affordable level. I'd like to support their upcoming products, but I simply don't find it fiscally responsible for me.
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?
It was a general statement. Where is Infinity modeled? Warpath? Do I need to go on?
So I can get in on the general statement, you know how come China sell knock off GW model from GW own molds. Says alot there, need I go on...
Yes you do, because that is bull gack. Chinese knock offs aren't from GW molds.
Ummm... that was the point anyone can say some leading lies. Way to miss it.
Gram wrote:I personally think everything I've bought from GW was overpriced outside of the codices and rulebooks. I am comfortable paying thirty dollars for my codex, and I suppose I am alright with paying around fifty to sixty for the rulebook. It's somewhat over what I'd like, but not alarmingly so. And I guess a bit over three dollars for a pot of paint isn't outrageous either, but then I'm not savvy on paint. GW's miniatures, on the other hand, tend to be far outside of what I am willing to pay for. Terrain pieces, units, measuring and modeling tools, really all of them feel oftentimes double what I'd be willing to pay for, sometimes more. Most of my army pieces are bought second hand, from eBay or the like, and for models we don't have we tend to substitute with just a base and approximate.
It's a shame, because I think GW would get more business if they marketed it more broadly at a more affordable level. I'd like to support their upcoming products, but I simply don't find it fiscally responsible for me.
Good comment as others have posted similar postings.
I also think that we should separate the game from the corporation. A great deal of people like 40K. They enjoy the rich background and the ability to paint/create/play. What they hate is the ideology of the corporation and who drives the corporation into making the marketing decisions that they do.
I have dealt and continue to deal with these types of type "A" business executives. This is of course in simple terms but in general, they are not nice people. If Games Workshop would have just thought improving public relations with their customer base we would not be having this topic or many others in the past and of the present.
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?
It was a general statement. Where is Infinity modeled? Warpath? Do I need to go on?
So I can get in on the general statement, you know how come China sell knock off GW model from GW own molds. Says alot there, need I go on...
Yes you do, because that is bull gack. Chinese knock offs aren't from GW molds.
Actually a certain amount of them are. FW produced out of China for a (very) short while and thus a lot of the knockoff FW pieces are from copied molds.
How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
makes all of your follow up "questions" pretty loaded. It's not exactly a vast leap of logic to conclude that you're implying all those other companies use Chinese labor.
How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
makes all of your follow up "questions" pretty loaded. It's not exactly a vast leap of logic to conclude that you're implying all those other companies use Chinese labor.
Incidentally, as Laughing Man said, they don't.
Than my question is answered and all is right in the world. That's great news actually!
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?
It was a general statement. Where is Infinity modeled? Warpath? Do I need to go on?
So I can get in on the general statement, you know how come China sell knock off GW model from GW own molds. Says alot there, need I go on...
Yes you do, because that is bull gack. Chinese knock offs aren't from GW molds.
Actually a certain amount of them are. FW produced out of China for a (very) short while and thus a lot of the knockoff FW pieces are from copied molds.
Byte wrote:How many of these minis that everybody so proud of are made by child labor in China? Just saying...
Given what I've seen of Mantic, I'm pretty sure they own their own injection molds in Britain. Privateer prints most of their models in Seattle, and Corvus Belli is a Spanish company. Want to try that again?
It was a general statement. Where is Infinity modeled? Warpath? Do I need to go on?
So I can get in on the general statement, you know how come China sell knock off GW model from GW own molds. Says alot there, need I go on...
Yes you do, because that is bull gack. Chinese knock offs aren't from GW molds.
Actually a certain amount of them are. FW produced out of China for a (very) short while and thus a lot of the knockoff FW pieces are from copied molds.
And the GW plastic kits into resins?
Are produced in Nottingham. They're not even produced in Memphis--yet.
To answer the OP, it saddens me and I wish they would actually see through their threats and leave the hobby. GW aren't perfect, noone claims them to be, but the constant barrage of the same crap gets pretty boring pretty quickly, and the reasonable complaints get lost under the weight of the abuse that gets hurled.
.. Or you could say that there is no smoke without fire, and that the complaints would stop if the prices were actually reasonable?
If I started posting that GW didn't make anything like enough left-handed miniatures, or that the air inside the sealed boxes of GW products was poor quality ("I don't like the smell") - then that would be an unreasonable complaint.
There are some things that GW does right: The popularization of its fantasy universes through Black Library, the easy access and gateway effect of its bricks and mortar stores (and the principle of them), the generally good quality of their plastics amongst other things. These don't generally have 'complaint' threads about them because, well, they are behaving in a way that fans are for the most part are happy with. If they made the prices of their miniatures reasonable, and in-line with their competitors, then perhaps the pricing threads (and people 'crying' about them) would stop too.
dæl wrote:To answer the OP, it saddens me and I wish they would actually see through their threats and leave the hobby. GW aren't perfect, noone claims them to be, but the constant barrage of the same crap gets pretty boring pretty quickly, and the reasonable complaints get lost under the weight of the abuse that gets hurled.
The hobby or the HHHobby?
I think you'll find GW is haemorrhaging people from the latter into a lot of other game systems out there. GW is not the be all and end all of this hobby.
dæl wrote:To answer the OP, it saddens me and I wish they would actually see through their threats and leave the hobby. GW aren't perfect, noone claims them to be, but the constant barrage of the same crap gets pretty boring pretty quickly, and the reasonable complaints get lost under the weight of the abuse that gets hurled.
The hobby or the HHHobby?
I think you'll find GW is haemorrhaging people from the latter into a lot of other game systems out there. GW is not the be all and end all of this hobby.
Specifically the HHHobby.
As long as that vocal lot who are complaining and leaving are the WAAC lot too, well that's two birds with one stone.
At the end of the day it's an expensive pastime, not as expensive as others, but more so than comparable tabletop ones, but it gets boring listening to people winge and winge with nothing to add. Don't get me wrong there have been a few really good posts in this thread that articulate the problems really well but they are outnumbered by the usual BS.
i personally couldn't care what people think about the price
i like the models, the gaming system, the paints are great( as an artist i sometimes use them on my canvuses they are that good) the story and history behind each army is brilliant and always evolving thanks to forge world and black library as well as GWs own staff.
the kits are getting better and better each time they rerelease them they are packed with extra bits. plus they take care of every aspect of the game creating terrain and boards that not only look awesome but tie into the theme that they have had through out the years, you can tell a GW model just by looking at it.
as for price going up it happens every where not just in GW its a business at the end of the day and the grumbling abut fine cast, its a relatively new process for them so there is going to be some problems but I'm sure they would get the sorted and if it was really tat bad of a cast I'm sure if i take it to my local store they would replace it for me.
and personally i hate people who use other models as stand ins for GW i spend a lot of time building and painting my armies and if some one turned up to play me with an army of non GW models in a store or gaming club i wouldn't play them but thats just me
People complained about prices ask the way back when I was playing in 2nd edition. Prices have increased by nearly 50% or more since then and the arguments are the same only GW its doing a lot better financially since then. The prices don't phase me as I don't really bed anything any more she's with the advent of EBay and my local shop selling used minis, I just don't buy a much brands new if I can help it. The same goes for privater press models. My entire army was bought second hand. No need to buy brand new models when I can save a couple out bucks on one that has been stripped or in the case of PP, never painted.
kencotter wrote:and personally i hate people who use other models as stand ins for GW i spend a lot of time building and painting my armies and if some one turned up to play me with an army of non GW models in a store or gaming club i wouldn't play them but thats just me
Why? You may be fine with the prices that Games Workshop demands for their miniatures, but many do not have the disposable income required to be capable of fielding a competent army because of them. Example: It's a hundred dollars for me to just buy a single unit of Broadsides in my army. To field a force of a fairly expected size --between 1,500 and 2,000 points-- requires several hundred dollars. Looking at the army I have now, which is made up of O'Shovah, 5 XV-8 Crisis Suit teams, 1 Stealth Suit team, 1 Broadside team, 2 Fire Warrior Squads, a Devilfish, and a Hammerhead, I'd be paying almost $900 out of pocket. And it's still not even finished at that point! If I want effective diversity I'm going to need at some Pathfinders (meaning I have to make two purchases of three of them along with a Devilfish to meet requirements), a couple Pirahnas, and some snipers, which would come out to another $200, even then leaving my army incapable of being able to utilize vespid, kroot, or Ethereal forces.
This is completely forgetting rulebooks, paints, tools, etc. For two players to be able to really tinker around with their setups and play freely under the current model, with painted models on any nice surface, the two will together probably spend a couple thousand dollars easily.
and personally i hate people who use other models as stand ins for GW i spend a lot of time building and painting my armies and if some one turned up to play me with an army of non GW models in a store or gaming club i wouldn't play them but thats just me
I wasn't sure which one to use, but just from a change to the usual Kieth Ledger...
Just interjecting here, having not read the entire 7 pages of posts before me. To answer the OP's original question of "How does people crying about the cost of GW products affect the way you think about the products?"
There are plenty of other model companies who produce 100% accurate high quality planes and tanks like Hasegawa and Tamiya who's molds haven't changed in 20 years and their prices only rise to meet the true cost of materials. Other plastic model companies that make totally fiction stuff (think Bandai and Gundam or Robotech or Armored Core) you either get way more for the same price (colored plastics, moving joints) or a comparable model is much cheaper. Again with a very high level of detail and craftsmanship built into the model. And, to my knowledge these companies don't fleece certain countries or bitch about the cost of transport (but hell aussies and kiwis let me know if I'm wrong).
Hearing other people outcry makes me think that I'm not cheap, or crazy, or alone. I feel that GW's stuff is good, but not $50's good (100% of the time anyway). I pick up what I want, when I want, and I try and get it for as cheap as possible. It's the best I can do because I like GW because I've always liked GW.
sorry Gram didnt realise the prices in america were so high having just checked them out. i understand you guys have it bad over there a battle suit here is like £15 pound which is about $17 dollars that kinda sucks for you fellows over the water
and as for not wanting to play someone with out GW models when playing GW game system, its just that i spend the money to get my armies looking good so i expect the same from other people, saying that i dont mind people using count as in a game if they want to test out what having a diffrent unit is like before buying it
and pretty much everyone i game against game in GW stores rather than independent ones and over here they dont allow you to use other models in store.
kencotter wrote:and personally i hate people who use other models as stand ins for GW i spend a lot of time building and painting my armies and if some one turned up to play me with an army of non GW models in a store or gaming club i wouldn't play them but thats just me
I have to echo the comments from above - are you serious about this? We're not talking about an army of 'SprueCrons' or red pipe cleaners with googly eyes stuck on, we're talking about full 'counts as' armies. You have a problem with this?
kencotter wrote: and as for not wanting to play someone with out GW models when playing GW game system, its just that i spend the money to get my armies looking good so i expect the same from other people, saying that i dont mind people using count as in a game if they want to test out what having a diffrent unit is like before buying it
Are you serious? I mean, are you actually serious when you say this?
My mind's blown. I mean, I can sort of understand the 'I can still afford it, so the price rises are ok' stuff in it's twisted logic, but this... yeesh.
kencotter wrote:
and as for not wanting to play someone with out GW models when playing GW game system, its just that i spend the money to get my armies looking good so i expect the same from other people, saying that i dont mind people using count as in a game if they want to test out what having a diffrent unit is like before buying it
Are you serious? I mean, are you actually serious when you say this?
My mind's blown. I mean, I can sort of understand the 'I can still afford it, so the price rises are ok' stuff in it's twisted logic, but this... yeesh.
If thats the culture of the gaming stores he decides to play at and he has adopted the same same mentality whats the big deal? He clearly states he primarily plays at GW stores. If he played at peoples houses he may be used to salt shakers and green army men. It's not that far off base. If that's the culture of your FLGS or GW outlet. We all know the answer to the GW store policy(well most of them).
kencotter wrote: and as for not wanting to play someone with out GW models when playing GW game system, its just that i spend the money to get my armies looking good so i expect the same from other people, saying that i dont mind people using count as in a game if they want to test out what having a diffrent unit is like before buying it
Are you serious? I mean, are you actually serious when you say this?
My mind's blown. I mean, I can sort of understand the 'I can still afford it, so the price rises are ok' stuff in it's twisted logic, but this... yeesh.
If thats the culture of the gaming stores he decides to play at and he has adopted the same same mentality whats the big deal? He clearly states he primarily plays at GW stores. If he played at peoples houses he may be used to salt shakers and green army men. It's not that far off base. If that's the culture of your FLGS or GW outlet. We all know the answer to the GW store policy(well most of them).
C'mon - there's a major difference between 'My FLGS is a GW and I don't game at home, so most models I ever see are GW', and 'If you don't collect and play the official models then I'm either going to look down my nose at you or flat out refuse to play against you'.
Which, I'd like to point out, isn't an attitude solely within the GW community.
Byte wrote:Wow, I touched a hot button/touchy subject. Didn't mean to.
My question about where models where produced wasn't referring to any one company. It was a general question. Why is this so stimulating?
Mostly because it is so profoundly ignorant I imagine but I could be wrong.......
Gee thanks Pal...
You are welcome I always try to be as helpful as possible!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kencotter wrote:sorry Gram didnt realise the prices in america were so high having just checked them out. i understand you guys have it bad over there a battle suit here is like £15 pound which is about $17 dollars that kinda sucks for you fellows over the water
You may want to check exchange rates (xe.com is a very good site for this). At the current exchange rate it would cost about $23.40 not $17.
kencotter wrote:sorry Gram didnt realise the prices in america were so high having just checked them out. i understand you guys have it bad over there a battle suit here is like £15 pound which is about $17 dollars that kinda sucks for you fellows over the water
No, that's more or less equivalent when converted. £15=~$24 USD.
and as for not wanting to play someone with out GW models when playing GW game system, its just that i spend the money to get my armies looking good so i expect the same from other people, saying that i dont mind people using count as in a game if they want to test out what having a diffrent unit is like before buying it
Right, which is your prerogative. I'm not saying it shouldn't be your right to decide who you play against, but you specifically stated you hate these people. Why? Because they can't afford to spend the time and money to actually field these things? That's puzzling, to me.
It's like the folks I see --only ever in online discussion-- that state a model absolutely has to be as-is. Any equipment seen or unseen must remain that way. For a Tau army, this essentially means I am never going to be able to play in any other way than one. Who could possibly afford to follow that rule and still be able to field any kind of customizable force?
and pretty much everyone i game against game in GW stores rather than independent ones and over here they dont allow you to use other models in store.
Even though it makes sense for them to have to use their models, that still seems terribly unfriendly.
kencotter wrote:sorry Gram didnt realise the prices in america were so high having just checked them out. i understand you guys have it bad over there a battle suit here is like £15 pound which is about $17 dollars that kinda sucks for you fellows over the water
Gram wrote:You may want to check exchange rates (xe.com is a very good site for this). At the current exchange rate it would cost about $23.40 not $17.
I wish they were $17.. would save me time off ebay..
Anyways, people arguing over prices doesn't bother me any, I've just been using the time not buying to do some painting, check out other game systems, and to see what kind of chaos champions i can kitbash for my LATD mini force.
It doesn't affect how I see the products at all, it just makes me see how people will whine and complain about just about anything and everything.
Personally I laugh at the people who keep saying they'll shelve their armies after reading a couple sentences...jeez, I'd hate to see how you react to a problem in your job where you don't have all of the information available. Just quit your job? Naaah, you'll stay. Dakka keeps growing while people make empty threats and promises.
I don't like the price hikes, I just roll with the punch that I have to curtail my purchases. The models themselves I love, very well made and mostly easy to assemble.
I just have to temper my thoughts on the interwebs to remember it is easier to be a Chicken Little with the anonymity of the net...
well deliver a Ferrarri, and not a lemon of a Ford that you have to rebuild even though it is brand new.
