So my Dakka mates i am here suggesting on how we kill the Grey Knights. In general we are looking for a weakness to exploit on the general purfier spamm/general grey knight codex. If we exaggerate it to far/ get to wide or too focus on one unit we are losing general capablities to fight them. Thus i am ending this rant by saying i am looking for whats a obivious exploit that we can use. I am also leaving it open ended for you to say general ideas on what would dare i say. . . counter the grey knights. To offer some humor/bait here is a video.
Their weakness is that they are very expensive while still only being MEQs.
A Purifier is just as easy to kill as a Tactical marine. He just costs 44% more and has more combat capabilities in both ranged and CC, but hes still just T4 with a 3+ armor.
Anything thats AP2-3 will mow down GKs very effectivly.
AP 2 works if you have it. Not much of a weakness, as it works on everyone else too
Poison for the dreadknights, but you need to use a feth-load of it to get past 2+ 5++ ...
Shoot them to death seem s to work better than CC, as a whole, but again it takes a feth-load of firepower...
So in short, the same you'd use on everyone else, but way more of it. They don't really have an exploitable weakness beyond a relatively low model count, unless someone allows a 'all psykers on the board (psychic vehicles included) just die, no saves' piece of wargear.
If they are lacking in purifiers, mob the hell out of them. Drown them in corpses. Stuff those fancy guns of theirs with bodies and then throw even more troops at them, mankind's finest won't look so fine when they're buried under a mound of hormagaunts. Try to avoid fighting draigowing unless it's a kill point game as these guys just don't die unless you have a demolisher cannon up your sleeve. As for henchmen, if it can kill guardsmen, with a little work it can kill henchmen too, though henchmen tend to be quite a bit harder than guardsmen.
Actually, dark eldar are pretty good against grey knights. Darklances mow down purifiers, and massed poison fire works on any infantry. Except for psyriflemen, they only have a 2' threat range.
Against purifiers, they go down to massed fire fairly easily. Regular terminators as well.
I only have problems with the dreads. Hard to get a melta close before the rifleman takes out the transport.
Dr. Serling wrote:Actually, dark eldar are pretty good against grey knights. Darklances mow down purifiers, and massed poison fire works on any infantry. Except for psyriflemen, they only have a 2' threat range.
Against purifiers, they go down to massed fire fairly easily. Regular terminators as well.
I only have problems with the dreads. Hard to get a melta close before the rifleman takes out the transport.
Psyfileman dreads have become popular lets discuss on how to deal them. Especially venerable ones..
Kain wrote:If they are lacking in purifiers, mob the hell out of them. Drown them in corpses. Stuff those fancy guns of theirs with bodies and then throw even more troops at them, mankind's finest won't look so fine when they're buried under a mound of hormagaunts. Try to avoid fighting draigowing unless it's a kill point game as these guys just don't die unless you have a demolisher cannon up your sleeve. As for henchmen, if it can kill guardsmen, with a little work it can kill henchmen too, though henchmen tend to be quite a bit harder than guardsmen.
What about clensing flame? drowning them is what i do with my orks, but i am wondering on how to gain more effective nist
Ascalam wrote:AP 2 works if you have it. Not much of a weakness, as it works on everyone else too
Poison for the dreadknights, but you need to use a feth-load of it to get past 2+ 5++ ...
Shoot them to death seem s to work better than CC, as a whole, but again it takes a feth-load of firepower...
So in short, the same you'd use on everyone else, but way more of it. They don't really have an exploitable weakness beyond a relatively low model count, unless someone allows a 'all psykers on the board (psychic vehicles included) just die, no saves' piece of wargear.
Grey Templar wrote:Their weakness is that they are very expensive while still only being MEQs.
A Purifier is just as easy to kill as a Tactical marine. He just costs 44% more and has more combat capabilities in both ranged and CC, but hes still just T4 with a 3+ armor.
Anything thats AP2-3 will mow down GKs very effectivly.
So pack plasma/lascnnons is what we are getting at?
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, Demolisher cannons, Battle cannons, Plasma, any AP2-3 blasts will take GKs out rapidly.
Sadly orks seem the least suited to do this and vanilla marines seem under par for it, the best spamm for that is imperial guard in my opinion.
Would would be the prefered melee weapon against grey knights, so far my best sucess for grey knights as ork was a flaming battlewagon with a mek with kff. I tankshock/deffrolla a unit and then stack 16 flamers on them. But i must know when play a "sub par dex" what would you take dakka? what is your favored? What has won you CC against grey knights?
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, Demolisher cannons, Battle cannons, Plasma, any AP2-3 blasts will take GKs out rapidly.
Sadly orks seem the least suited to do this and vanilla marines seem under par for it, the best spamm for that is imperial guard in my opinion.
Would would be the prefered melee weapon against grey knights, so far my best sucess for grey knights as ork was a flaming battlewagon with a mek with kff. I tankshock/deffrolla a unit and then stack 16 flamers on them. But i must know when play a "sub par dex" what would you take dakka? what is your favored? What has won you CC against grey knights?
I played the knights just last night....I beat crowe and two purifier squads with guardians...not even storm guardians. Guardian defenders. It also helps when you have runes of warding and every time he tries to hammerhand or something like that somebody loses their head.
As long as they have no death cult assassins, henchmen and inquisitors are easy to beat in cc as well.
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, Demolisher cannons, Battle cannons, Plasma, any AP2-3 blasts will take GKs out rapidly.
Sadly orks seem the least suited to do this and vanilla marines seem under par for it, the best spamm for that is imperial guard in my opinion.
Would would be the prefered melee weapon against grey knights, so far my best sucess for grey knights as ork was a flaming battlewagon with a mek with kff. I tankshock/deffrolla a unit and then stack 16 flamers on them. But i must know when play a "sub par dex" what would you take dakka? what is your favored? What has won you CC against grey knights?
I played the knights just last night....I beat crowe and two purifier squads with guardians...not even storm guardians. Guardian defenders. It also helps when you have runes of warding and every time he tries to hammerhand or something like that somebody loses their head.
As long as they have no death cult assassins, henchmen and inquisitors are easy to beat in cc as well.
Eldar just rape Grey knights in my opinion. Espeically because someones head does pop...lol nice game.
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Grey Templar wrote:A wagon full of Burnas will demolish purifiers just as easily as it kills any other marines.
Looted Wagons with Boomguns are another thing I don't like as a GK player.
As a GK player what do you shoot at first? whats the average most threatening to you? is their melee units you rather shoot todeath and avoid?
I find that orks are incredibly easy to use against them, as you kill any purifiers they may have with shooting, and then laugh as your endless swarms of boys take down terminator after terminator
The following is written by someone who has never played against GK except for fun, so take everything with a grain of salt. I'm only posting my own thoughts, not what I know for a certainty.
Melta/Plasma seem to work well and since many armies can field lots of them, I'm surprised Draigowing is so problematic when a single melta shot takes out a 60+ point model and IG can field a meltavet squad on the cheap. Heck when I played them my pair of TFCs chewed through their purifier squads with them unable to return fire because most of their stuff is range limited to 2 feet.
Lotus wrote:The following is written by someone who has never played against GK except for fun, so take everything with a grain of salt. I'm only posting my own thoughts, not what I know for a certainty.
Melta/Plasma seem to work well and since many armies can field lots of them, I'm surprised Draigowing is so problematic when a single melta shot takes out a 60+ point model and IG can field a meltavet squad on the cheap. Heck when I played them my pair of TFCs chewed through their purifier squads with them unable to return fire because most of their stuff is range limited to 2 feet.
y
i would agree.
FenWulf29 wrote:I find that orks are incredibly easy to use against them, as you kill any purifiers they may have with shooting, and then laugh as your endless swarms of boys take down terminator after terminator
for the most part i agree because everytime my opponet wanted to using cleansing flame he failed. :/ i laughed.
Grey Templar wrote:Their weakness is that they are very expensive while still only being MEQs.
.
People keep saying this. It is not true.
Or rather, it's a truism. It's like saying I could unleash Jon Jones into a karate tournament for 10-year olds, Cosmo Kramer-style, and it'd be balanced because he'd died from a shotgun blast to the face just as the kids, besides, he costs so much more to book!
The average GK has way more goodies than the average MeQ for only a slight price bump. There are many, many other units out there that actually cost more and deliver less (Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, Sanguinary Guard). They can get easy cover saves from allied psykers to get extra resiliency against AP3/2 fire. Most importantly, they can hunker down inside unshakeable, un-stunnable, cover-save-boosted transports while returning high-quality fire from mid-range.
In order to beat GK, your first step is to stop convincing yourself that they're unbeatable. That's the most significant step.
After that, you shoot power armor infantry with AP3, and Terminator armor infantry with AP2. Torrent fire works well on both, also.
You don't assault Purifiers if you can avoid it, and you try to tarpit Paladin squads. If you want to shoot Paladins to death, use S8.
You use Melta or the most powerful equivalent you have for taking out Dreadnoughts. Use alternate delivery methods for it to make sure it gets close enough to the Dreads to be effective. Storm Troopers, Drop pods, outflanking, or Eldar Vehicles are all examples of mechanisms for facilitating this.
Not really sure what can be said otherwise other than the tired old "square peg goes in the square hole" mantra. It still works.
Grey Templar wrote:Their weakness is that they are very expensive while still only being MEQs.
.
People keep saying this. It is not true.
Or rather, it's a truism. It's like saying I could unleash Jon Jones into a karate tournament for 10-year olds, Cosmo Kramer-style, and it'd be balanced because he'd died from a shotgun blast to the face just as the kids, besides, he costs so much more to book!
The average GK has way more goodies than the average MeQ for only a slight price bump. There are many, many other units out there that actually cost more and deliver less (Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, Sanguinary Guard). They can get easy cover saves from allied psykers to get extra resiliency against AP3/2 fire. Most importantly, they can hunker down inside unshakeable, un-stunnable, cover-save-boosted transports while returning high-quality fire from mid-range.
Grey Templar wrote:Their weakness is that they are very expensive while still only being MEQs.
.
People keep saying this. It is not true.
Or rather, it's a truism. It's like saying I could unleash Jon Jones into a karate tournament for 10-year olds, Cosmo Kramer-style, and it'd be balanced because he'd died from a shotgun blast to the face just as the kids, besides, he costs so much more to book!
The average GK has way more goodies than the average MeQ for only a slight price bump. There are many, many other units out there that actually cost more and deliver less (Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, Sanguinary Guard). They can get easy cover saves from allied psykers to get extra resiliency against AP3/2 fire. Most importantly, they can hunker down inside unshakeable, un-stunnable, cover-save-boosted transports while returning high-quality fire from mid-range.
You raise good points, but i have still seen grey knights crushed.
daedalus wrote:In order to beat GK, your first step is to stop convincing yourself that they're unbeatable. That's the most significant step.
After that, you shoot power armor infantry with AP3, and Terminator armor infantry with AP2. Torrent fire works well on both, also.
You don't assault Purifiers if you can avoid it, and you try to tarpit Paladin squads. If you want to shoot Paladins to death, use S8.
You use Melta or the most powerful equivalent you have for taking out Dreadnoughts. Use alternate delivery methods for it to make sure it gets close enough to the Dreads to be effective. Storm Troopers, Drop pods, outflanking, or Eldar Vehicles are all examples of mechanisms for facilitating this.
Not really sure what can be said otherwise other than the tired old "square peg goes in the square hole" mantra. It still works.
I completely agree with the mentality thing. I often find players that have it convinced they are going to lose roll worse and players who at least want to try to win and give it their best end up rolling better. It seems like what this thread has shown us is, abuse the weak range of grey knight, deal with their dreads or rifle men with a alternative/abnormal approach, excercise caution into melee, but dont run away from it and lastly apply the right weapon to the right spot at the right time. For everything else praise the dice gods. Unless Meta Knight players have any other words to add to this preferably what they hate to run into/what has been their down fall i dont see anything else to say here.
Well, GK excel with their psycannons at the range of 24'' or less. One weakness is that they are rather slow, as slow as any Marine army up to BA. Some fast armies can avoid their shooting at 24'' to a certain extend. Psychic hood can block psychic powers and this is what oppenents can annoy.
As a GK player, it makes me sad that no one wants to play me, I'd even use the old codex as long as I wasn't paying 50 points for every friggen squad leader.
However:
1. they are nasty, but only shoot 24" and GK lack blast templates, by letting him go first you can go heavy on one flank and take on his army a half at a time. They are only marines, fight them just like you would a big, nasty marine army with half the models.
2. a strong long range, or alpha strike can cripple the entire army. pop the transports and you have a bunch of marines on foot, dangerous as they are, they still only shoot half way across the board or run as fast as they run.
3. many GK players are just straight-up bad. By taunting a flank with a juicy "boy that squad sure will pay for itself" unit, such as multiwound models begging to be ID'd or a big horde begging to be multi-assaulted. you can dictate the game to your advantage.
wuestenfux wrote:Psyfleman Dreads are one of the strengths of a GK army. They don't get tankhunter but psyammunition which provides a strength boost.
I'm saying if they could have both, mech lists would disappear overnight as they'd drown everything that doesn't have wounds in effectively a hail of S9 shooting.
Kain wrote:With the grey knights you can at least be thankful for one thing. At least their venerable dreads can't get Tankhunters...they can't right?
True, there is no tankhunter upgrade available.
Oh thank Gork, if they could I don't think anybody would take vehicles anymore if there was a single psyfleman on the table.
Yeah a buddy of mine has 3 vernables pysfilemen dreads...to which he only runs them because i run 9 valkyires :/ (not vendettas be sirprised punks) Basically here is what happens i fly in on scount depending on turn 1 i pop all his rifle with melta cause i can roll 4+ twice. Or He shoots down 3 valkyires and i kill 2 dreads and like 10 purfiers... again my ig are not mega competeive and require great skill on the table to pull wins off because that list is the definition of glass cannon.
But yeah grey knights can be beat and the best way to do it is froma tactical stand point not a rule stand point. If you see that 5 pyscannon squad on the side in the open go take advantage of it. Because with Grey knights being the most recent they will have the most power it just happens will all the codexs. Orks were amazing, Imp Guard were the meta, Dark Eldar were fantastic now Grey knights are fantastic. I most believe it to be meta hype/ new hype then anything. Raw wise grey knights just work amazingly at 2ft or less...and only 2ft or less. Pysfilemen provide that 4ft 3 target hurrasment, but its only 3 targets...kinda silly really if you run any good redundent list with lascannons or equal you wil destory those dreads.
Paladins are just 2 wound Termies. You throw enough boys at them, they will die. Purifiers are better at shooting Tact marines. You shoot them and they will die. So send boys into Paladins and Lootas into Purifiers.
Other armies have better shooting than orks so it is easier to blast them off the board. It's the assaulting the Paladins as non hordes that becomes the issue. But, enough AP 1-2 will take down the Paladins.
GK v. DE would favor the DE, I think. The sheer amount of Blasters and Disintegrators DE can take, even in a 1000 point list, is insane.
Also, Duke Sliscus with a full unit of trueborn, all with shardcarbines, will most certainly kill something, as 29 shots that hit and wound on 3+ are very helpful.
Percentages can distort. An Ork boy is a whopping ONE HUNDRED PERCENT pricier than a grot! Who could build an army out of such inneficient building blocks?
In real terms, as long as a good basic troop is under 22 points, plus the important upgrades, you can spam it to fill out the necessary slots and then fill the rest with the killy stuff that will support it, knowing that both together will be overwhelming. IE Grey Hunters, Khorne Berserkers, BA Assault Marines, meltavets, you name it.
I'm not saying GKs are invincible. They can be beaten, sometimes easily, even. But their cost is not a weakness. It would be if they were exactly as killy as regular tacticals/jump troops/Dreads for an increased price. That is not the case. They cost (slightly) more and also do (a lot) more.
My personal advice would be to load up on anti-psyker defense (Eldar have a particularly easy time here) so their vehicles can actually suffer results in a more normal fashion, and do your best to spam three levels of firepower: S9 to crack Dreads, S7-8 for transports, and long-range, high-gain mass fire of lower strength to pile saves onto regular troops until they fail enough to cease to be a big danger.
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, Demolisher cannons, Battle cannons, Plasma, any AP2-3 blasts will take GKs out rapidly.
Sadly orks seem the least suited to do this and vanilla marines seem under par for it, the best spamm for that is imperial guard in my opinion.
Would would be the prefered melee weapon against grey knights, so far my best sucess for grey knights as ork was a flaming battlewagon with a mek with kff. I tankshock/deffrolla a unit and then stack 16 flamers on them. But i must know when play a "sub par dex" what would you take dakka? what is your favored? What has won you CC against grey knights?
I played the knights just last night....I beat crowe and two purifier squads with guardians...not even storm guardians. Guardian defenders. It also helps when you have runes of warding and every time he tries to hammerhand or something like that somebody loses their head.
As long as they have no death cult assassins, henchmen and inquisitors are easy to beat in cc as well.
Eldar just rape Grey knights in my opinion. Espeically because someones head does pop...lol nice game.
I've been reading battle reports on Reecius's foot Eldar army lately (yes, I said foot Eldar) and it looks to me like what he says about them being especially good against GK must be true.
The army is a variant of an old Elfzilla style army with 2 antitank wraithlords plus some foot dragons for the psyflemen, Avatar, Eldrad, and the full 10 harlies for counterattack. The thing that makes the list different is 2 or 3 units of 10 dire avengers with no upgrades. That is a crapload of Str4 shots at 18" (24" effective range), especially when augmented by doom and/or guide, should be enough to wipe whole units of purifiers once they're out of their transports. And dire avengers get their 4+ armor save against stormbolters too.
Search the batrep forum for Reecius and Footdar to check it out.
cormadepanda wrote: i am looking for whats a obivious exploit that we can use. I am also leaving it open ended for you to say general ideas on what would dare i say. . . counter the grey knights. To offer some humor/bait here is a video.
Funniest. Video. Ever. I am still almost crying, I laughed so hard.
Okay so here's the basics of my solicited opinion. The Grey Knights essentially go naked. They dont overwhelm you with their number of armored transports, as it limits their rates of fire and they rely completely on the rate of fire to carry the day. Ironically, it is therefore rate of fire that is the best weapon against them and even moderately high str weapons are plenty. Even DreadKnights, though cool in melee, tend to do more damage shooting unless you're just a silly face and don't know where the 5" mark is.
Main thing: their Dreadnoughts fire copiously, and present the most immediate and important threat. Three of them are 12 TLSTR 8 shots and this is seen commonly. That is a deadly salvo to anything and anyone.
The trick seems to be that you need to present no targets early, gank the Dreadnoughts from behind in some ninja fashion or tie them up (They have no power weapons usually), or otherwise make them unable to contribute meaningfully; and then flood the units from one side or the other with shots, such that only one or two units can fire back if any; plus be sure that ALL enemy units are forced to move in order TO fire. Kill Crowe with shooting cause he's like a torpedoe: when he hits its usually against something vital Ready? GO! So what do you have that can do that? What strategies must you employ?
Dark Eldar, as Hitler will apparently tell you, can be fragile and susceptible in the extreme to Grey Knights when you build them as he clearly does or deploy them as he does. Dont follow Hitlers example. =). I just bought a mass of Dark Eldar yesterday. We'll see how it does.
I purchased some things that will let me carry out this vital mandate though. I can sneak up on the enemy and gank Dreadnoughts from the Webway portal or at range (but mostly the portal since ranged attempts will cease quite quickly against those Dread guns the GK have, so best not to try and compete with them immediately). I have taken heavy duty nightmares in my army that can multicharge vehicles and Halberdiers. I'll Bring in the anti-infantry/Crowe cavalry (Disintegrator Cannons) while the enemy is trying to respond to the threats to the Dreadnoughts. The Cannons possess greater range than the Grey Knights. My centerpiece is the Bomber who will come in no doubt to drop its payload on Grey Knights after they finish an assault. The more under the templates, the merrier. Kill kill, blood makes the grass grow.
Sprinkle in Hexrifle Fire to pin the enemy and try to instakill Castellan Crowe who is annoyingly good at times.
Since I play Crowe Knights, I am lookin forward ot testing this theory.
I never go for punchweapons against Grey Knights... Doesnt matter which army you play... just try to force as many cover/armor/inv saves. They cant save em all,... and youll most likely be outnumbering them anyways...
cormadepanda wrote:So my Dakka mates i am here suggesting on how we kill the Grey Knights. In general we are looking for a weakness to exploit on the general purfier spamm/general grey knight codex. If we exaggerate it to far/ get to wide or too focus on one unit we are losing general capablities to fight them.
There are a few strategies you can use to mitigate grey knights
Bodies, Bodies, Bodies MSU shooty body spam blocks GK pretty well. Don't drop 80 BA assault marines and expect them to outperform purifiers power weapons. However, dropping 60 grey hunters with 12 PG can cause a world of pain for puriifer spam. Simply put, psycannons and psydreads can't kill enough of your army.
When going with this route, you must bring lots of MEQ models. At 1500 points you should bring 60 models, and at least 80 at 2000 points.
AV 12+ spam If you can bring a lot of AV 12+ vehicles to the board, you can give GK a hard time. AV 14 is even better, as the only weapon the GK have is 24" range that loses half its shooting when they move. This means GK have a hard time with 3 LRBTs and lots of chimeras -- the sheer amount of AV 12+ spam is to much. LRBTs are nearly immune to psydreads.
Mobility If you can force the GK to keep moving and shooting, they lose 50% of their psycannon firepower. This can be very helpful when your trying to trade shots. A good example of this would be mech'dar just scooting back and shooting.
Have an answer for psydreads You need to have something to address the psydreads. You can use outflankers, fire dragons, or an army type that's immune to them. It does not matter what you do, so long as you have a plan for them.
cormadepanda wrote:So my Dakka mates i am here suggesting on how we kill the Grey Knights. In general we are looking for a weakness to exploit on the general purfier spamm/general grey knight codex. If we exaggerate it to far/ get to wide or too focus on one unit we are losing general capablities to fight them.
There are a few strategies you can use to mitigate grey knights
Bodies, Bodies, Bodies MSU shooty body spam blocks GK pretty well. Don't drop 80 BA assault marines and expect them to outperform purifiers power weapons. However, dropping 60 grey hunters with 12 PG can cause a world of pain for puriifer spam. Simply put, psycannons and psydreads can't kill enough of your army.
When going with this route, you must bring lots of MEQ models. At 1500 points you should bring 60 models, and at least 80 at 2000 points.
AV 12+ spam If you can bring a lot of AV 12+ vehicles to the board, you can give GK a hard time. AV 14 is even better, as the only weapon the GK have is 24" range that loses half its shooting when they move. This means GK have a hard time with 3 LRBTs and lots of chimeras -- the sheer amount of AV 12+ spam is to much. LRBTs are nearly immune to psydreads.
Mobility If you can force the GK to keep moving and shooting, they lose 50% of their psycannon firepower. This can be very helpful when your trying to trade shots. A good example of this would be mech'dar just scooting back and shooting.
Have an answer for psydreads You need to have something to address the psydreads. You can use outflankers, fire dragons, or an army type that's immune to them. It does not matter what you do, so long as you have a plan for them.
Alright then Seems like we got this well rounded down mates! Keep the grey knights moving abusing their range and nerfing their rate of fire. Try to out witt the grey knight via outflank and or mass bodies. Use hordes out side melee, pack low ap with high shots and for the love of god use your templates. Seems easy. Would you all agree?
cormadepanda wrote:Alright then Seems like we got this well rounded down mates! Keep the grey knights moving abusing their range and nerfing their rate of fire. Try to out witt the grey knight via outflank and or mass bodies. Use hordes out side melee, pack low ap with high shots and for the love of god use your templates. Seems easy. Would you all agree?
No. Its not easy.
Possible, yes, but not easy.
There is a reason that at major tournaments your seeing 40% of the field being GK, and the majority of army lists making it into the top brackets being GK.
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, Demolisher cannons, Battle cannons, Plasma, any AP2-3 blasts will take GKs out rapidly.
Sadly orks seem the least suited to do this and vanilla marines seem under par for it, the best spamm for that is imperial guard in my opinion.
Would would be the prefered melee weapon against grey knights, so far my best sucess for grey knights as ork was a flaming battlewagon with a mek with kff. I tankshock/deffrolla a unit and then stack 16 flamers on them. But i must know when play a "sub par dex" what would you take dakka? what is your favored? What has won you CC against grey knights?
I played the knights just last night....I beat crowe and two purifier squads with guardians...not even storm guardians. Guardian defenders. It also helps when you have runes of warding and every time he tries to hammerhand or something like that somebody loses their head.
As long as they have no death cult assassins, henchmen and inquisitors are easy to beat in cc as well.
Eldar just rape Grey knights in my opinion. Espeically because someones head does pop...lol nice game.
I've been reading battle reports on Reecius's foot Eldar army lately (yes, I said foot Eldar) and it looks to me like what he says about them being especially good against GK must be true.
The army is a variant of an old Elfzilla style army with 2 antitank wraithlords plus some foot dragons for the psyflemen, Avatar, Eldrad, and the full 10 harlies for counterattack. The thing that makes the list different is 2 or 3 units of 10 dire avengers with no upgrades. That is a crapload of Str4 shots at 18" (24" effective range), especially when augmented by doom and/or guide, should be enough to wipe whole units of purifiers once they're out of their transports. And dire avengers get their 4+ armor save against stormbolters too.
Search the batrep forum for Reecius and Footdar to check it out.
Very familiar with his army. Marching fragons up to psyflemen is damn hard, your opponent is likely to blast them off the table, even with cover. I have tried my footdar against them and I find range to be the best. Pathfinders and guardians. Scatter lasers at 3' do a lot of damage early on, and keep me out of psycannon range. Guardians still threaten if they get close. Pathfinders were my MVP, however. That many Ap1 shots at range makes a mockery of Paladins. I had my pathfinders Kill a dreadknight, 5 paladins and pin the paladins 3 times.
labmouse42 wrote:
cormadepanda wrote:So my Dakka mates i am here suggesting on how we kill the Grey Knights. In general we are looking for a weakness to exploit on the general purfier spamm/general grey knight codex. If we exaggerate it to far/ get to wide or too focus on one unit we are losing general capablities to fight them.
There are a few strategies you can use to mitigate grey knights
Bodies, Bodies, Bodies MSU shooty body spam blocks GK pretty well. Don't drop 80 BA assault marines and expect them to outperform purifiers power weapons. However, dropping 60 grey hunters with 12 PG can cause a world of pain for puriifer spam. Simply put, psycannons and psydreads can't kill enough of your army.
When going with this route, you must bring lots of MEQ models. At 1500 points you should bring 60 models, and at least 80 at 2000 points.
AV 12+ spam If you can bring a lot of AV 12+ vehicles to the board, you can give GK a hard time. AV 14 is even better, as the only weapon the GK have is 24" range that loses half its shooting when they move. This means GK have a hard time with 3 LRBTs and lots of chimeras -- the sheer amount of AV 12+ spam is to much. LRBTs are nearly immune to psydreads.
Mobility If you can force the GK to keep moving and shooting, they lose 50% of their psycannon firepower. This can be very helpful when your trying to trade shots. A good example of this would be mech'dar just scooting back and shooting.
Have an answer for psydreads You need to have something to address the psydreads. You can use outflankers, fire dragons, or an army type that's immune to them. It does not matter what you do, so long as you have a plan for them.
Mobility works, for a while. On an 8' by 4' you are safe, but on a 6' by 4' mechdar struggle. My last game I had three psyflemen in range of all of my tanks from the get go, and not very much LOS blocking terrain. Rushing up fire dragons will NOT work, unless you can completely obscure LOS(good luck with true LOS rules. I have tried this several times, and I have never managed to get dragons anywhere close to a dread. 4 S8 shots twin linked means they usually all hit, 1 or 2 go through and immobilize or destroy the serpent. Moving flat out gives cover, but even then, they will just do it with another dread, or with Psycannons as you close in range. A good GK player will focus all fire on those closing fragons and blast them. I have never had my fragons as an option against Gray knights. My last game against them I got to use one squad against a rhino that got close, as they lost their ride first turn. You have to hit psyflemen first, with something they can't get a shot at.
Av12 is crackable under weight of fire, but 13 up has a chance. Just Av12 will fall, but with enough 13+ mixed in your gold.
So what are getting at here people? Grey knights are either A. Defended saying they are amazing and uber. Or B. Said we could beat them. We keep going back and forth, that is not very productive.
Thus i can say is grey knights rules and raw are great 2ft range. Usally on foot and naked, attempt to best fit cover, and get that range out. In all reality the rifledreads must be ignored because you will give up to much to march through the grey knights. Leave the dreads with obivious non effective targets like a ork battle wagon. I laugh when i can roll cover save on a av14 front vech. Other then that you really must play better then your foe and make sure he is the one making mistakes. While grey knights are good at kill points they are terrible at objectives due to the average foot slogg. You hold your 1 objective and distract with the others you will find your grey knights stop placing in tournys. At least that what happened at my local game store. Blood angel player and I Air Guard beat grey knights in objectives and they dudes havent taken first or second since.
Very familiar with his army. Marching fragons up to psyflemen is damn hard, your opponent is likely to blast them off the table, even with cover. I have tried my footdar against them and I find range to be the best. Pathfinders and guardians. Scatter lasers at 3' do a lot of damage early on, and keep me out of psycannon range. Guardians still threaten if they get close. Pathfinders were my MVP, however. That many Ap1 shots at range makes a mockery of Paladins. I had my pathfinders Kill a dreadknight, 5 paladins and pin the paladins 3 times.
It's probably worth mentioning, then, that the fire dragon units have the firepike exarch with crack shot. In a mech army, that exarch isn't worth it. But in a foot army, that means starting out at just under 24", the exarch can take a BS5, str8 melta shot with no cover save at a AR12 vehicle. If he can get within 24".
Plus the avatar has a decent antitank shot, and can take them down in melee. Even Eldrad can melee down psyflemen with his witchblade since they only have str6.
But I think the primary thing in Reese's army that threatens the psyflemen is the BL/EML wraithlords. They shrug off autocannon shots and can outrange rending psycannons and can't be hurt by storm bolters at all (unless psybolt ammo).
Rangers/pathfinders are effective against MCs and marines on foot, though.
Dr. Serling wrote:. Rushing up fire dragons will NOT work, unless you can completely obscure LOS(good luck with true LOS rules. I have tried this several times, and I have never managed to get dragons anywhere close to a dread. 4 S8 shots twin linked means they usually all hit, 1 or 2 go through and immobilize or destroy the serpent. Moving flat out gives cover, but even then, they will just do it with another dread,
Really? I've had it work quite often. I also fortune two fire dragon serpents with Eldrad, which probably helps. This means that he has two threats that he must take out or lose psydreads, and they have a 75% obscurement with those squads. I've lost one before, but I've never lost both fire dragon squads in one turn before.
On turn two, I usually send the other dragon squad upstream with a small warlock squad that I use for anti-tank, also fortuned up.
I play a purifier list. I think my biggest weaknesses are a mech guard melta vet list, and eldar. Eldar are just seriously annoying with those runes, anything with a hood is annoying too, just less so.
But mech guard are always a challenge and they dont even have psychic stuff most of the time. It's a combination of having so many bodies to throw at the situation, and all of them being able to shoot down a group of purifiers pretty much single handed. Sure I might be able to take out a chimera or two with my dreads, but theres always more, most of them are in cover, and guard has lots of ways of killing my dreads. add orders on top of that, saving troops that should be running away, and dont forget about artillery like manticore's or just an outflanking vendetta or two... guard have what it takes to win against purifiers, the same is true for draigowing as long as you dont get into reserve delay shenanigans too much. Henchman spam is probably easier than anything else, since they usually end up on foot and shot to pieces.
So MSU shooting with a lot of firepower is the way to go IMO, add some psychic defense and you really have a GK challenger. Eldar players are probably all saying "Thats me!" right now.
Dr. Serling wrote:. Rushing up fire dragons will NOT work, unless you can completely obscure LOS(good luck with true LOS rules. I have tried this several times, and I have never managed to get dragons anywhere close to a dread. 4 S8 shots twin linked means they usually all hit, 1 or 2 go through and immobilize or destroy the serpent. Moving flat out gives cover, but even then, they will just do it with another dread,
Really? I've had it work quite often. I also fortune two fire dragon serpents with Eldrad, which probably helps. This means that he has two threats that he must take out or lose psydreads, and they have a 75% obscurement with those squads. I've lost one before, but I've never lost both fire dragon squads in one turn before.
On turn two, I usually send the other dragon squad upstream with a small warlock squad that I use for anti-tank, also fortuned up.
To be fair, one time it was against Coteaz and he stole initiative on me, and proceeded to blast the serpents into oblivion. Even with eldrad using fortune, I still end up losing my serpents before they can get in effective range. Although another time the dude cheated and said that his turbo penetration round from the vindicare assassin got 4d6 against my serpent, and proceeded to punch right through it and wreck it first turn.
Dr. Serling wrote:. Rushing up fire dragons will NOT work, unless you can completely obscure LOS(good luck with true LOS rules. I have tried this several times, and I have never managed to get dragons anywhere close to a dread. 4 S8 shots twin linked means they usually all hit, 1 or 2 go through and immobilize or destroy the serpent. Moving flat out gives cover, but even then, they will just do it with another dread,
Really? I've had it work quite often. I also fortune two fire dragon serpents with Eldrad, which probably helps. This means that he has two threats that he must take out or lose psydreads, and they have a 75% obscurement with those squads. I've lost one before, but I've never lost both fire dragon squads in one turn before.
On turn two, I usually send the other dragon squad upstream with a small warlock squad that I use for anti-tank, also fortuned up.
To be fair, one time it was against Coteaz and he stole initiative on me, and proceeded to blast the serpents into oblivion. Even with eldrad using fortune, I still end up losing my serpents before they can get in effective range. Although another time the dude cheated and said that his turbo penetration round from the vindicare assassin got 4d6 against my serpent, and proceeded to punch right through it and wreck it first turn.
Cheaters dont count for games to play with becase honestly my lasguns do 4d6 armor pen to :../ man that be the day guard went from good to just plain dumb as all hell. Eldar tanks are very hearty waveserpents are all right, but the falcons never die. Freaking awesome like that.
Yesterday i played a 1,500 point game with a gk guy at my local gaming store, i was using my SW, and luckily for me by the end of the game Njal had taken out Dragio 3 paladins and an inquisitor.
FenWulf29 wrote:Yesterday i played a 1,500 point game with a gk guy at my local gaming store, i was using my SW, and luckily for me by the end of the game Njal had taken out Dragio 3 paladins and an inquisitor.
Yeah it was jaws, first time i ever saw him get annoyed when rolling 6's!
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To be fair, one time it was against Coteaz and he stole initiative on me, and proceeded to blast the serpents into oblivion. Even with eldrad using fortune, I still end up losing my serpents before they can get in effective range. Although another time the dude cheated and said that his turbo penetration round from the vindicare assassin got 4d6 against my serpent, and proceeded to punch right through it and wreck it first turn.
I have recently lost all fear of playing my local GK guys...this is primarily because i play Chaos Daemons (and not many people in my area have Interceptors...pretty sure that Warp Quake could still make me hurt...).
My most recent game pitched my Khorne Daemons list against a Draigowing, complete with a Librarian, Dreadknight and PsyRifleman Dreadnought. Even at 3,000 points however, i outnumbered him by almost 3-to-1. Mob down any unit of paladins with enough Bloodletters and Flesh Hounds and they'll drop within a turn. I have to say, Flesh hounds ROCK against GKs (in CC anyways). They form an effective, fast tarpit to help get your marine killers into combat safely. Had winged princes swoop in and take out the Rifleman, though not before it killed my Soul Grinder (he didnt even get a kill before he died ) Skulltaker easily bested the Dreadknight in one round (!), though it was kind of an uphill battle catching up with a teleporter pack DK. And after all was said and done...i only lost 1 model to the Daemonbane rule, a Fury of Khorne Bloodcrusher.
That being said, it was a fun game, and really quite close until the last few turns. Once Kaldor Draigo died it was pretty much over. When mobbed down with 5 bloodcrushers, 3 bloodletters (Kaldor killed the other 12), a Daemon prince, and a full-strength Bloodthirster, even the GK chapter master folded like a soggy tissue.
I have to say....against Daemons (at least so far), games with GKs seem to be a very close and competitive thing. I really enjoy the games i've played. The rules, while perhaps over-powered against other races, seem to set up a nutural rivalry between the two armies that lore-wise are the most bitter of enemies.
NEVER thought is say this.....but...Well done Matt Ward..... (I hate karma )
Kain wrote:With the grey knights you can at least be thankful for one thing. At least their venerable dreads can't get Tankhunters...they can't right?
True, there is no tankhunter upgrade available.
Oh thank Gork, if they could I don't think anybody would take vehicles anymore if there was a single psyfleman on the table.
In effect Psy ammo makes them tank hunters versus everything. Assault cannon & stormbolter. 2 Autocannons - you are in trouble anyways. I think the point of it is there will be only a limited number of them no matter what. You don't need to kill them just make sure they can't shoot. If you can aim for one dread and one transport each turn, he should have significantly reduced firepower.
juraigamer wrote:Unless a GK player tailors to kill demons, they tend to have a hard time dealing with them.
This is ironically very true. A decent FateCrusher build will ruin a GK day almost anytime.
As for other armies, the best thing is volume of fire especially if it is AP1 or 2. I think that is what makes IG so dangerous to play. With the amount of Plasma Guns and Lascannons it can be overwhelming for anyone let alone someone who typically doesn't get a lot of models on the board to begin with.
Beyond that DE can put a hurt on GK if the DE player knows what he is doing. Basically suicicde the blasterborn to get rid of any cover that the dreads use then lance the dreads to death. From then on just sit back and play keep away. Focus on one flank with everything you have so that if you get cornered you can escape. If the GK player doesn't shield the dreads then keep the trueborn back or run them as a "mini-sniper" squad, (3 man 2 DL) and then use the venoms for them as a gunship.
Most marines struggle since they can't muster enough bodies to fight back, but it is do-able.
Dr. Serling wrote:To be fair, one time it was against Coteaz and he stole initiative on me, and proceeded to blast the serpents into oblivion. Even with eldrad using fortune, I still end up losing my serpents before they can get in effective range. Although another time the dude cheated and said that his turbo penetration round from the vindicare assassin got 4d6 against my serpent, and proceeded to punch right through it and wreck it first turn.
I think some of that is bad luck, my friend.
A psycannon has a 9% to destroy a flat-out moving fortuned serpent. (when standing still)
A psydread gun has a 8.5% to destroy the same serpent. (It does have two of them)
If there were 15 psycannons/psydread autocannons you would have a reasonable chance of getting blown out the sky, but that takes a very specific GK build to pull off.
If your facing that kind of army, as someone suggested, move to falcons. They are much tougher to kill.
The problem with GK is that they have lots of varied, viable builds, so you can't really come up with a one-size-fits-all counter.
For example, many GK lists lack any melta, which can make dealing with AV 14 problematic. Unless you spam lots of psycannons (and assault cannon razorbacks) you may have trouble dealing with land raiders and leman russes.
Some Coteaz lists max out on dreads/ven dreads and skimp on a few warbands for troops...they can be easy to kill, making playing for the mission/objectives an option. The dreads are great against light-medium vehicles, but take time to kill things in +2/+3 armor.
I think the problem is the meta has changed over the years to the point where a lot of things that might give GKs trouble just aren't taken anymore. Again, something like a Leman Russ can quickly obliterate small GK squads that are knocked out of their transports while resisting the mediocre GK ranged firepower (at least against AV14). Tailoring a list to deal with common GK stuff, though, usually results in problems against other armies.
Overall, I think Space Wolves can compete with a basic long fang/razorspam-type list, while still being competitive overall. I think IG has the right tools to be effective...I just haven't seen a list that really brings them all together well. It's tough to find the right mix of sufficient, light anti-tank firepower to stop the rhino/razor horde, large blasts/torrent of fire to kill the troops quickly, all robust enough to survive a pounding from psycannons and psydreads. Oh, and you need to advance closer to them to compete for mission objectives.
Grimaldi wrote: Tailoring a list to deal with common GK stuff, though, usually results in problems against other armies.
Major Motoko Kusanagi: It's simple: Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death.
- Ghost in the Shell 1995
Grimaldi wrote:I think Space Wolves can compete with a basic long fang/razorspam-type list, while still being competitive overall.
I think razorspam has a hard time vs GK personally. The GK weapons are excellent tearing up AV 11, and 3 psydreads means that you will be losing ~2 RBs a turn from just the dreads. Long fangs also have the weakness of no extra bodies, so one psydread shooting at them will cause wound allocation across the entire squad -- meaning its easy to lose missiles from the squad. At least BA and C:SMdevs can get some more bullet catchers.
Grimaldi wrote:I think IG has the right tools to be effective....
They have some great tools. Sanctioned psykers lowering draigo's LD to 2 is just horrible as he would pelt off the board as soon as he takes 2 casualities. 3 vendettas can help shut down psydreads, and then start to work on paladins. LRBTs templates are not bad on either paladins or GKs. They cause ID on paladins, so prevent would allocation shenanigans even if they give a 2+ save, and GK squads die just as easy to battle cannons as other MEQ.
You also hit a nail on the head about multiple builds. How you face a henchmen army is totally different than how you face a purifier spam which is different than a draigowing.
As Orks, use KMB's on the Paladins (have nothing else go near them), assault the Psyfle-Dreads, and shoot at the Purifiers. Lootas can focus on fliers, or any other infantry units.
As Dark Eldar, prioritize those psyfledreads with lances or Haywire (anything as long as you prevent them from firing). Target Paladins with Lances and Blasters and never assault them, opt to fire on Purifiers instead of assaulting them, be very careful how you use your Inbuci, and remember that FNP and your two Monstrous Creatures are going to have a lot of trouble. Disintegrators will likely help a lot.
In general, watch out for Death Cult Assassins, which are ludicrously powerful when combined with Rad and Psychotrope grenades, and hammerhands. Try to get them out of their transport, and fire on them in the open, where they will simply melt away. When equipped with an Inquisitor, a Techmarine, and something else to give them that second hammerhand, they decimate most things.
Kharrak wrote:As Orks, use KMB's on the Paladins (have nothing else go near them), assault the Psyfle-Dreads, and shoot at the Purifiers. Lootas can focus on fliers, or any other infantry units.
As Dark Eldar, prioritize those psyfledreads with lances or Haywire (anything as long as you prevent them from firing). Target Paladins with Lances and Blasters and never assault them, opt to fire on Purifiers instead of assaulting them, be very careful how you use your Inbuci, and remember that FNP and your two Monstrous Creatures are going to have a lot of trouble. Disintegrators will likely help a lot.
In general, watch out for Death Cult Assassins, which are ludicrously powerful when combined with Rad and Psychotrope grenades, and hammerhands. Try to get them out of their transport, and fire on them in the open, where they will simply melt away. When equipped with an Inquisitor, a Techmarine, and something else to give them that second hammerhand, they decimate most things.
Good advice here! Gents take it into consideration.
I think Dark Eldar have it the easiest against GK. They have a plethora of AP 2 weapons, most of which can be taken on basic troops (Dark Lances, Blasters) and on gunboats (Disintegrators). With the exception of Psyfledreads, Dark Eldar, and especially Dark Eldar vehicles with Night Shields, will have a very easy time saying out of range of the vast majority of GK weapon range.
Oh, and Reavers. Nothing like Cluster Caltrops/bladevanes to run a unit into the ground with an overabundance of wounds.
In practice, DE v GK feels balanced on a razor's edge. Both have elements that are extremely vulnerable to the other's firepower types. Mass psyflemen and psybacks can seriously constrain the DE movement options, as a psyfleman has a good chance of killing even a rav through cover. Lances are strongest when they're just looking for suppression results, but grey knights ignore suppression, forcing the DE to guarantee the kill. However, DE can be elusive enough to make it extremely frustrating for the GK midfield elements to get shots in. In my opinion each army has a number of strengths that either exploit an opposing weakness very well or balance off against an opposing strength very well.
In general, the Grey Knights are hard for most typical armies to handle due to near-immunity to armour suppression. Tactically, it's better to focus on destroying or tarpitting armour instead. The usual mass-suppression fire of scatter lasers/autocannons/other medium guns just doesn't work as well because so many results are pretty much useless.
The lower model count and emphasis on duality with psycannons means that you really should try to just overwhelm them with targets. GK like to fight outside their transports, so it's feasible to just ignore the rhinos sometimes. Psychic defenses are also broadly useful and particularly against GK. Runes of Warding, and suddenly, suppression works again.
Unless the DE spam raiders and dark lances, they'll probably struggle against GKs. Most DE lists I see spam a lot of venoms with blaster-toting troops on board...not going to work. Can't risk getting out to shoot the blasters, as the GK troops will murder DE troops, and can't afford to stay on the vehicle and try to slowly move around firing, because the psycannons will hurt you.
It gets worse with razor spam GKs...HB razorbacks with psybolts will quickly destroy DE fliers, and even assault cannons with psybolts will be in range in a turn or two and easily down a skimmer a turn.
I love my DE, but I had to give them up because fighting IG chimera walls with hydras was an impossible hurdle. Most GK lists aren't quite that bad, but they're pretty close.
Haywire Blasters. You wanna' De-fang StormRavens? Hit them with 4-8 off those Haywires. Reliable. Likely to tear up the 'Raven weapons and though they will take extra armor on it, it probably won't survive to use them. those weapons are just remarkably useful.
Grey knights have we found their weekness? recap - they can vary in list and alter your advantages.
Advantages you generally have
- range grey knights lack good ranged fire power thats longer then 3 feet.
- Typically transport less and naked make them hit the open
- Low Ap can devistate them properly
- Use Templates
- Avoid/remove rifle dreads sneakily
- Avoid combat when capable and or choose your fight when it bests suits you. Grey knights are monsters in melee.
Long Fang spam using FRAG, not krak. Melta and Plasma Grey Hunters.
Thunderlord and TWC go hunting rifle dreads.
Basically volume of fire on infantry and TWC on vehicles/rifle dreads.
That's some of the worst advice I've ever seen. You'd have to wound 3 GK's with one frag missile to kill as many as you would with 1 krak missile. Good luck hitting 6 guys with one small bast template.
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cormadepanda wrote:Grey knights have we found their weekness? recap - they can vary in list and alter your advantages.
Advantages you generally have
- range grey knights lack good ranged fire power thats longer then 3 feet.
- Typically transport less and naked make them hit the open
- Low Ap can devistate them properly
- Use Templates
- Avoid/remove rifle dreads sneakily
- Avoid combat when capable and or choose your fight when it bests suits you. Grey knights are monsters in melee.
Lets see if anything else pops up.
1) Psyfleman dreads are the best long range AT in the game
2) Only Paladins, Purifiers and strikes will tend to have transports
3) True, but its hard to pack a lot of low AP weaponry into a list without tailoring it
4) Why is using templates against them good? Wouldn't it be better against an army with a lot of models? If anything I would argue templates are less effective (unless they're ap2/3, but thats not what you said)
5) You can't really avoid something that can move and shoot 48"
6) Not all GK's. Strike Squads are pretty poor in CC for their cost unless they're facing something that relies on FnP or high armor saves but low toughness. Terminators are just terminators
People like to try and make excuses for them, but GK's are pretty overpowered. I would recommend tailoring your list slightly to dealing with them since they're so common.
Obviously they die to shooting just like normal marines, so that's ideally the best way to go. Also you HAVE to bring anti psyker capabilities (aka another psycher). And when you opponent tries to use all those crazy grenades....well there's nothing you can do. They're the most slowed thing in 40k
1. Low AP weapons work well against everything so will not into it further here.
2. Psychic defences- If your army has psychic defence it will always come into play against the GKs. Whether its a Psychic Hood or SitW anything to not make GK psychic checks more or less automatic is a plus.
3. Long range fire- Most everything has a range of 24" for the GKs. Sure you can take the odd lascannon or the autocannon dreads but there is likely never going to be an abundance of these longer ranged weapons. Sit back and shoot as the GKs advance, they for the most part have to. Blast at GK units on objectives until the last moment then try and take or contest.
4. Assault- Contrary to many opinions (even after a year released), the GKs are not an assault army. Yes, force weapons for everyone are great but you still have only WS4, S4 attacks at base that are dealt at I4. You can upgrade GKs with halberds for I6 but they are still only WS4, S4. Now the real threat is the Hammerhand or Might of Titan lurking around, that is why we brought psychic defence. Once GKs start hitting and wounding like SMs they are not as fearsome (if you are playing anarmy with base T3 then this is more of a problem but again regular SM are a problem as well).
5. 3++- This is really an extension of #4, units with an invulnerable save of 3+ is nearly a death-knell for GKs. In combat GKs, cannot match-up with stormshield equipped units. Warding Staves are awesome but you can't take enough to turn the balance of the melee. Paladins are especally vulnerable to assault Termies with hammers & shields.
I have always felt that the real strength of the 'dex was on the Inquisition side. The variety of ranged and combat weapons are more emphasized and cheaper allowing the player to build a list that is strong agaisnt a variety of opponents. The GKs being much higher costed lack this flexibility and can be exploited more easily IMO.
1. Low AP weapons work well against everything so will not into it further here.
2. Psychic defences- If your army has psychic defence it will always come into play against the GKs. Whether its a Psychic Hood or SitW anything to not make GK psychic checks more or less automatic is a plus.
3. Long range fire- Most everything has a range of 24" for the GKs. Sure you can take the odd lascannon or the autocannon dreads but there is likely never going to be an abundance of these longer ranged weapons. Sit back and shoot as the GKs advance, they for the most part have to. Blast at GK units on objectives until the last moment then try and take or contest.
4. Assault- Contrary to many opinions (even after a year released), the GKs are not an assault army. Yes, force weapons for everyone are great but you still have only WS4, S4 attacks at base that are dealt at I4. You can upgrade GKs with halberds for I6 but they are still only WS4, S4. Now the real threat is the Hammerhand or Might of Titan lurking around, that is why we brought psychic defence. Once GKs start hitting and wounding like SMs they are not as fearsome (if you are playing anarmy with base T3 then this is more of a problem but again regular SM are a problem as well).
5. 3++- This is really an extension of #4, units with an invulnerable save of 3+ is nearly a death-knell for GKs. In combat GKs, cannot match-up with stormshield equipped units. Warding Staves are awesome but you can't take enough to turn the balance of the melee. Paladins are especally vulnerable to assault Termies with hammers & shields.
I have always felt that the real strength of the 'dex was on the Inquisition side. The variety of ranged and combat weapons are more emphasized and cheaper allowing the player to build a list that is strong agaisnt a variety of opponents. The GKs being much higher costed lack this flexibility and can be exploited more easily IMO.
Invulnerable saves are good against GK and Gk do lack effective range, a typicall list even wth dreads has only 3 dreads - which with cover your tantk/trukk has a high surviablity rate. Agreed about the physic defense because GK become amazing when they get you use their powers.
Doctor33 wrote:4. Assault- Contrary to many opinions (even after a year released), the GKs are not an assault army. Yes, force weapons for everyone are great but you still have only WS4, S4 attacks at base that are dealt at I4. You can upgrade GKs with halberds for I6 but they are still only WS4, S4. Now the real threat is the Hammerhand or Might of Titan lurking around, that is why we brought psychic defence. Once GKs start hitting and wounding like SMs they are not as fearsome (if you are playing anarmy with base T3 then this is more of a problem but again regular SM are a problem as well).
This varies wildly depending on the army one is fielding.
Orks, for example, have no psychic defense, and nothing that can even worry Paladins in close combat - even though they happily trounce through normal space marines and terminators. Purifiers are a natural worry for them as well.
Doctor33 wrote:4. Assault- Contrary to many opinions (even after a year released), the GKs are not an assault army. Yes, force weapons for everyone are great but you still have only WS4, S4 attacks at base that are dealt at I4. You can upgrade GKs with halberds for I6 but they are still only WS4, S4. Now the real threat is the Hammerhand or Might of Titan lurking around, that is why we brought psychic defence. Once GKs start hitting and wounding like SMs they are not as fearsome (if you are playing anarmy with base T3 then this is more of a problem but again regular SM are a problem as well).
This varies wildly depending on the army one is fielding.
Orks, for example, have no psychic defense, and nothing that can even worry Paladins in close combat - even though they happily trounce through normal space marines and terminators. Purifiers are a natural worry for them as well.
As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)
Thats why Psyfledreds always shoot down whats transporting the Nobs first. Unless you are running a bunch of BWs you will find it difficult to engage the Purifiers with Nobs without taking some fire first.
Grey Templar wrote:Thats why Psyfledreds always shoot down whats transporting the Nobs first. Unless you are running a bunch of BWs you will find it difficult to engage the Purifiers with Nobs without taking some fire first.
loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)
Purifiers can be dealt with without much trouble - as Orks (shoot at them!). Nobs are a better unit to toss at them, since they can put out the attacks to decimate them while only losing about two nobs.
Deathcult Assassins with Rad grenades, and two hammerhands? And Paladins? Nobs aint gonna help ya.
loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)
Purifiers can be dealt with without much trouble - as Orks (shoot at them!). Nobs are a better unit to toss at them, since they can put out the attacks to decimate them while only losing about two nobs.
Deathcult Assassins with Rad grenades, and two hammerhands? And Paladins? Nobs aint gonna help ya.
Yes, but we can all agree that deathcults are pretty ridiculous no matter what army. They are fairly frail in the shooting phase though. Paladins? Avoid them. I can't really thing of anything else, besides bombing them with a blitza bomma and hoping you get the result where it crashes. Autmoatic lascannon hits on all of the bastards!
loota boy wrote:Yes, but we can all agree that deathcults are pretty ridiculous no matter what army. They are fairly frail in the shooting phase though. Paladins? Avoid them. I can't really thing of anything else, besides bombing them with a blitza bomma and hoping you get the result where it crashes. Autmoatic lascannon hits on all of the bastards!
Pretty much, yeah. Get those Deathcultists in the open, they aren't an issue.
As I stated, for Paladins, point KMB's in their general direction - really helps thin them out.
Necron Triarch Stalkers do well against Grey Knight Paladins in CC. It takes them double hammerhand to be able to break through AV13. Lots of Tesla helps too, they cant save them all. I once shot a Draigo Paladin squad with one Tesla Destructor and put two wounds on Draigo one on the banner and one on the hammer.
In theory a Stalker would tie them up for a while but not if they have another character in there.
One Hammerhand makes any Hammers in the squad Str10. If there is a Librarian in or nearby then the squad will have 2D6 armor penetration and the Stalker will be toast.
Grey Templar wrote:In theory a Stalker would tie them up for a while but not if they have another character in there.
One Hammerhand makes any Hammers in the squad Str10. If there is a Librarian in or nearby then the squad will have 2D6 armor penetration and the Stalker will be toast.
Thought hammerhand would apply after hammer, like ferious charge for orks power kawl
While I hardly have multiple games with my bikes against GK (2 total), 2k of melta bikes (white scars) have handled GK very well. Since I'm outflanking, I get an alpha strike no matter what, and its a lot of AP1 being thrown around.
In my most recent GK vs WS battle I had a few more models than him (like 5), but his 2 dreads (1 must have been a ven) and 2 dreadknights popped in my alpha strike. He had two squads of termies, one of which mulched through two squads of bikes before I put them down, but nothing else was really that hard to handle... though I now hate halberds with a vengeance.
loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)
Okay, guy.
Let's see here. You're saying that you're not scared of Purifiers because even though they can butcher your standard troop choice, if you pick an elite unit that is only capable of CC combat and incapable of any kind of point-efficient shooting, if and only if you get the charge, you can wipe out a Purifier Squad (e.g. if 2 or 3 PKs get to swing at I1).
I don't see how you aren't seeing the problems with this, but to start, why don't you go ahead and make a list that's composed only of 7 man Nob squads. Get the picture? See how this is already an issue? What are you proposing, a list composed entirely of Nobs, or a list composed of Boyz that never reach CC? That's ridiculous. How care you going to tune such a list for competitive play?
And better yet, what are you going to do if the following happens? Each 10 man Purifier Squad is wearing 4 Psycannons.
4 Psycannons in heavy mode, which they probably will be if you're flinging Nobs at them, since Nobs are only good at CC and cannot outshoot Purifiers, do this to a Battlewagon with KFF in one turn of shooting:
daedalus wrote:Actually, from the battle reports I've read, shoota boyz do surprisingly well against Purifiers.
At any rate, spammy lists are spammy, and have the drawback of being able to develop hard counters for them. This has been true for every such list.
Shoota Boyz would do fine theoretically as long as you can keep the Purifiers from assaulting.
Nobz don't strike me as a good idea, though, because if you were a smart player you would focus them with your AC Dreads as soon as they were done with a successful combat.
Shoota Boyz would obviously need to assault after their shooting, but that would put them in a much better position then they normally would be. Sure, boyz will die a horrble flamey death but you will kill the unit.
The GK codex requires you to pay attention and PTFG. Lazy gamers are gamers who lose. I find it stimulating as a GK player to be on my toes countering all the tricks that get thrown my way.
Purifiers armies are awesome. Thats what I play and it does amazing. 30 Purifiers,10 Purgation, Assassin, Crowe, 3 Lazerbacks and 2 Dreads (I am more and more finding that the dreads aren't as great as another 10 Purgation).
Sounds easy enough to beat right? Not very.
Had to fight VenomCannon spam (like...a metric ton of it) with Necrotoxin Razorwings.in the TSHFT tourney. Faster, more range and Night Shields.
What they came to realize is that the board isn't unlimited in size as fate would have it. Won resoundingly.
One of the things he could have done to beat me more effectively though was to fight on only one sie of the board. He went first and went for a blaanced distribution of his forces, trusting in his incredible speed to swing to where needed. I think that had he taken one side and just dared me to walk anywehre near it, he'd have been in good shape.
So one way I might say to beat Grey KNights, mine specifically, is to totally Strongside it. They either have to walk into it or never are willing.Either way they will be on the move the whole game and they're only half as scary when they are forced to move.
Just some advice I would give haven been on the giving end of the GK beat down against Dark Eldar. As it was he punished me severealy in the first two rounds but his unwillingness to give up shots early on cost him the game. Sometimes the most important shots in the game are the ones you dont take.
TedNugent wrote:Nobz don't strike me as a good idea, though, because if you were a smart player you would focus them with your AC Dreads as soon as they were done with a successful combat.
Getting the nobs into assault with the purifiers is the issue (and one that can't be ignored).
If the Ork player somehow manages to achieve this, then the Nobs will most likely decimate the purifiers (assuming the PK nobs are still in).
I wouldn't do that personally - I'd just shoot at them.
Assaulting Psydreads with trukk boyz turns out to be a *really* good tactic, though. You'd face the same issue of getting the trukks to them, but they make easier targets than most GK units - so the Ork player would have to hope for the dreads to focus on the heavier stuff.
Runes of Warding to put a hamper on all that Psychic shenanigans GKs love to toss out.
Fortune on fast moving Grav tanks, plus holo-fields, to survive those shooting phases.
Run away from them hiding inside of unkillable transports until turn 5-6, then dump out near the end of the game and kill a couple of KP for the win.
Contrary to popular belief, you CAN run away from them for the entire game... you just can't expect to kill anything until turn 5-6. 3 tricked out Falcons, troops in serpents that start in reserve, Eldrad plus another Fortune Seer very much CAN avoid GKs for an entire game, especially if all of the tanks have Star Engines, allowing them to clear 36" per turn.
It's not pretty nor clean, but 2 Kill Points to 0 Kill Points is still a win.
loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)
Okay, guy.
Let's see here. You're saying that you're not scared of Purifiers because even though they can butcher your standard troop choice, if you pick an elite unit that is only capable of CC combat and incapable of any kind of point-efficient shooting, if and only if you get the charge, you can wipe out a Purifier Squad (e.g. if 2 or 3 PKs get to swing at I1).
I don't see how you aren't seeing the problems with this, but to start, why don't you go ahead and make a list that's composed only of 7 man Nob squads. Get the picture? See how this is already an issue? What are you proposing, a list composed entirely of Nobs, or a list composed of Boyz that never reach CC? That's ridiculous. How care you going to tune such a list for competitive play?
And better yet, what are you going to do if the following happens? Each 10 man Purifier Squad is wearing 4 Psycannons.
4 Psycannons in heavy mode, which they probably will be if you're flinging Nobs at them, since Nobs are only good at CC and cannot outshoot Purifiers, do this to a Battlewagon with KFF in one turn of shooting:
Or, if your Nobs have just completed a successful assault phase, you are now talking about also having them being subjected to the above.
Not scared of Purifiers. Try making a list and playing them.
Ok, wow. I was having such a nice morning until now. Frankly, I don't even know why i'm responding to you. I guess because my point was that purifiers are not completely untouchable by orks. I see a lot of people who just assume "purifiers have force weapons, so they auto-win against anything with more than one wound. Like nobz." I'd go in deeper, but I don't really feel like I have any obligation to give you a full response when you acted so rudely. I would've been happy to talk if you were a bit more courteous and left the attitude at home, but right now, i'd rather not waste my time.
loota boy wrote:As an ork player, i'm not really that scared of purifiers. Why? Because even though people are always screaming that purifiers can trounce both boyz and nobz in cc with either cleansing flames or force weapons, it isn't true. A standard seven (against grey knights, i will often spring for an eighth) man nob squad can handle a ten-man purifier squad IF (big if) they get the charge. Reason for this is there aren't as many force attacks in that squad as you think there are. 4 of those guys have psycannons, so they get no force weapons, and the knight of flame just has a thunderhammer, which is no change from a sarg with a pf. The nobz will be whittled down to a standard 5 or 6 man squad, which in turn can handle a 5 man purifier squad IF (anouther big if) they get the charge. After that, they're kinda gone, but they can still harass stuff. The main thing about forceweapons that you have to remember is that besides insta-deaths, they still hit on 4's, wound on 4's, and have to eat through a 5++ cybork save. One purifier has only 2 attacks, so you need about three of them to drop one nob. (2 attacks hit 50%, one hit. One hit wounds 50%, .5 wounds. Gets through save 66%, 2/3 of .5 is about .33, times 3 = one dead nob.)
Okay, guy.
Let's see here. You're saying that you're not scared of Purifiers because even though they can butcher your standard troop choice, if you pick an elite unit that is only capable of CC combat and incapable of any kind of point-efficient shooting, if and only if you get the charge, you can wipe out a Purifier Squad (e.g. if 2 or 3 PKs get to swing at I1).
I don't see how you aren't seeing the problems with this, but to start, why don't you go ahead and make a list that's composed only of 7 man Nob squads. Get the picture? See how this is already an issue? What are you proposing, a list composed entirely of Nobs, or a list composed of Boyz that never reach CC? That's ridiculous. How care you going to tune such a list for competitive play?
And better yet, what are you going to do if the following happens? Each 10 man Purifier Squad is wearing 4 Psycannons.
4 Psycannons in heavy mode, which they probably will be if you're flinging Nobs at them, since Nobs are only good at CC and cannot outshoot Purifiers, do this to a Battlewagon with KFF in one turn of shooting:
Or, if your Nobs have just completed a successful assault phase, you are now talking about also having them being subjected to the above.
Not scared of Purifiers. Try making a list and playing them.
Ok, wow. I was having such a nice morning until now. Frankly, I don't even know why i'm responding to you. I guess because my point was that purifiers are not completely untouchable by orks. I see a lot of people who just assume "purifiers have force weapons, so they auto-win against anything with more than one wound. Like nobz." I'd go in deeper, but I don't really feel like I have any obligation to give you a full response when you acted so rudely. I would've been happy to talk if you were a bit more courteous and left the attitude at home, but right now, i'd rather not waste my time.
Agreed. Everyone in this thread from grey knight loves/worshipers and meta hookers to the casual gamer must all be polite in this thread. Here we are searching for possible things we can look at for in games. But i do take advantage of much of what is discussed in here and as a result you can either take peoples good free advice or leave it, but please dont cry/mad/defend something. Things we are not doing is math hammering our favorite unit in favored positions where on paper they win. Now back to suggestions, and starting as such i will add mine.
I have taken on regularly a grey knight purfier spamm with my orks *drum roll* and i have won all the games. I do play a kan wall with double KFF and loota support. I have found that the lootas are excellent counters for those dreads, and my boyz/kanz can take the purfier firemake all their pentrations worthess due to cover saves. Not saying that games were close, they were very close and a lot of fun was had. Things when running a pure foot sloggin punch army that i do to trick up my GK player is turn two i typically run back out side his range. He will scoot forward to pop more shots into me; i suffer casualties and then i charge in with my mobs with waghh. The kanz typicall shot up the purfiers to "soften" them. My GK buddy likes to combat squad his troops into 5 man units with 1 being psy cannon heavy and the other being hailbered heavy, and as a result when i charge i am often swining at haliberds first. I will lose about 11 boyz average to clensing flame. Then i will lose 4-8 from stabbing. Swinging back i wipe his squad because it was only a 5 man unit and i have two power claws in it. (mek is a second). Thus take away from this, if they are a 5 man squad spec a boy horde will happily take them.
I think the reason why he wasn't taking you seriously was because you were advocating taking out a 300 point unit that your opponent could have 6 of by means of about 400 points of elite that you probably can't reuse.
This concept might be great for having a Nob squad drop a purifier squad once. It's not a sustainable means of taking on an entire purifier army, and, even if it is, I can't imagine it being especially effective against anything else.
daedalus wrote:I think the reason why he wasn't taking you seriously was because you were advocating taking out a 300 point unit that your opponent could have 6 of by means of about 400 points of elite that you probably can't reuse.
This concept might be great for having a Nob squad drop a purifier squad once. It's not a sustainable means of taking on an entire purifier army, and, even if it is, I can't imagine it being especially effective against anything else.
Agreed, that its not sustainable because nobs typically eat bullets all day, every day the second they killed something.
Nobs in my opinion are some of the most versitile melee units that one can have. A full nob squad by any means can take on any unit pufires fall under that as well - and nob armies exist to, while extremely effective, but low model count. View nobs as a deathwing list or similar termie spamm in terms of pts to model and model count.
I read through this thread, and noticed that there was a distinct lack of 2 things I feel are important to any discussion about beating grey knights.
1-General posts along the lines of "unit A hard counters unit B in a vacuum".
2-Little to no mention of Coteaz lists, which I think are probably the most deadly out there. So heres a 2k coteaz army for you guys.
Coteaz-100
3x 5 purifiers-149
Halberd, 2 psycannons, hammer, justicar with halberd
3x razorback-51
Twin linked heavy bolters, psybolts, searchlights
10 GKSS-250
Justicar with hammer, 2 psycannons, psybolts
Eidolon wrote:I read through this thread, and noticed that there was a distinct lack of 2 things I feel are important to any discussion about beating grey knights.
1-General posts along the lines of "unit A hard counters unit B in a vacuum".
2-Little to no mention of Coteaz lists, which I think are probably the most deadly out there. So heres a 2k coteaz army for you guys.
Coteaz-100
3x 5 purifiers-149
Halberd, 2 psycannons, hammer, justicar with halberd
3x razorback-51
Twin linked heavy bolters, psybolts, searchlights
10 GKSS-250
Justicar with hammer, 2 psycannons, psybolts
I also support this. Funny thing is i am putting together a henchmen army myself, and i dislike the Death cult assassin models in general so i am going to be doing alot of conversion work. However yes, transport spamm with guns is the most feared and honestly i dont know to deal with that other to hope you can pop his transports faster.
Voodoo wrote:I play a purifier list. I think my biggest weaknesses are a mech guard melta vet list, and eldar. Eldar are just seriously annoying with those runes, anything with a hood is annoying too, just less so.
But mech guard are always a challenge and they dont even have psychic stuff most of the time. It's a combination of having so many bodies to throw at the situation, and all of them being able to shoot down a group of purifiers pretty much single handed. Sure I might be able to take out a chimera or two with my dreads, but theres always more, most of them are in cover, and guard has lots of ways of killing my dreads. add orders on top of that, saving troops that should be running away, and dont forget about artillery like manticore's or just an outflanking vendetta or two... guard have what it takes to win against purifiers, the same is true for draigowing as long as you dont get into reserve delay shenanigans too much. Henchman spam is probably easier than anything else, since they usually end up on foot and shot to pieces.
So MSU shooting with a lot of firepower is the way to go IMO, add some psychic defense and you really have a GK challenger. Eldar players are probably all saying "Thats me!" right now.
Some GK armies have a hard time vs. shooty IG. However, GK also have Dreadknight. If you have 2 or 3 in the army with teleporters able to scout or outflank, IG will have a hard time to get rid of them.
daedalus wrote:I think the reason why he wasn't taking you seriously was because you were advocating taking out a 300 point unit that your opponent could have 6 of by means of about 400 points of elite that you probably can't reuse.
This concept might be great for having a Nob squad drop a purifier squad once. It's not a sustainable means of taking on an entire purifier army, and, even if it is, I can't imagine it being especially effective against anything else.
Killing ALL of them isn't necessary to win, i would point out. So that isn't a true issue. So much of Warhammer is figuring out how to pick your fights whenever you can.
daedalus wrote:I think the reason why he wasn't taking you seriously was because you were advocating taking out a 300 point unit that your opponent could have 6 of by means of about 400 points of elite that you probably can't reuse.
This concept might be great for having a Nob squad drop a purifier squad once. It's not a sustainable means of taking on an entire purifier army, and, even if it is, I can't imagine it being especially effective against anything else.
Killing ALL of them isn't necessary to win, i would point out. So that isn't a true issue. So much of Warhammer is figuring out how to pick your fights whenever you can.
That is warhammer... people who lose a lot say they had no choice in the fight.
what i have found with my DA vs GK that works (as someone else put it DA are like playing 40k on hard modem vs GK its Extreme hard mode lol)
this is my standard DW list
Bob
TH/SS
2 DW termy units
3xTH/SS, 2 LC, cyclone
Land raider x2
extra armour
3 x Typhoon
mm (all seperate)
with this list it truly is uphill, but mostly due to the GK players i have actually played, those dreads will ALWAYS get a shake on my raiders limiting my firepower and god forbid i actually let them get a clean shot on my speeders, the rest of the GK force i treat the same as Deamons (funny that) and backpeddle away from them in my raiders, but the large amount of str8+ i have deals with paladins fairly easily, depending on the size of units and wound alocation shenanigans, i usually dont fire
most of my multi shot weapons (HB or frags) as this will limit my casualties.
I dont bother taking Ravenwing at the moment as unfortunately they are not as good as vanilla ones and cost alot more, this is not the fault of GK of course lol, but what must be said for RW is there best at range 24" and this is where GK rock too, but there cheaper and can hurt me more.
Green wing list is suprisingly good but that is because i rock an ass ton of plasma.. i mean its obscene, but this can be done better by vanilla too so its not just DA
So just to sum up what i have found has worked.
Str8-9
Ap2 (not 3, 2 is better)
Do not always fire all your weapons, sometimes getting those 1 or 2 garenteed kills is better than the wound alo shenanigans that allow them to take less wounds.
Blast weapons are next to useless vs a player that spaces properly (i take plas cans so my oponents do this often) but this isnt restricted to GK plasma plasma plasma..guns
well i hope i helped, didnt see much "how to beat GK" in this how to beat GK thread
Formosa wrote:what i have found with my DA vs GK that works (as someone else put it DA are like playing 40k on hard modem vs GK its Extreme hard mode lol)
this is my standard DW list
Bob
TH/SS
2 DW termy units
3xTH/SS, 2 LC, cyclone
Land raider x2
extra armour
3 x Typhoon
mm (all seperate)
with this list it truly is uphill, but mostly due to the GK players i have actually played, those dreads will ALWAYS get a shake on my raiders limiting my firepower and god forbid i actually let them get a clean shot on my speeders, the rest of the GK force i treat the same as Deamons (funny that) and backpeddle away from them in my raiders, but the large amount of str8+ i have deals with paladins fairly easily, depending on the size of units and wound alocation shenanigans, i usually dont fire
most of my multi shot weapons (HB or frags) as this will limit my casualties.
I dont bother taking Ravenwing at the moment as unfortunately they are not as good as vanilla ones and cost alot more, this is not the fault of GK of course lol, but what must be said for RW is there best at range 24" and this is where GK rock too, but there cheaper and can hurt me more.
Green wing list is suprisingly good but that is because i rock an ass ton of plasma.. i mean its obscene, but this can be done better by vanilla too so its not just DA
So just to sum up what i have found has worked.
Str8-9
Ap2 (not 3, 2 is better)
Do not always fire all your weapons, sometimes getting those 1 or 2 garenteed kills is better than the wound alo shenanigans that allow them to take less wounds.
Blast weapons are next to useless vs a player that spaces properly (i take plas cans so my oponents do this often) but this isnt restricted to GK plasma plasma plasma..guns
well i hope i helped, didnt see much "how to beat GK" in this how to beat GK thread
this isnt a how to beat grey knights. This is weakness thread. You find what they suck at dealing with. Beating them is up to you. Also props for running DA against Grey Knights and more props for doing it with death wing. If anything Dark Angels terminator spamm isn't all that it use to be.
Load up on Plasma weapons and they will die. A generic Marine army can rock face on them something terrible. Take a couple of Dev squads with Missile Launchers to pop Transports, Typhoons to mess with the Dreads and then load up on Plasma in the rest of the army. Sgts with Plasma Pistols, squads with Plasmagun and Plasma Cannon. Trust me, they'll die long before you do if there is any terrain on the board at all. Just sit back and light them up like a christmas tree. Especially if you get to go first.
I wish there was room, graphics utilities and all that other happy horse nonsense on here to illustrate points, but my Tau who are overpowered in nearly everyway, win by simply not being there when the worst of it comes.
So if the focus is on beating them in this thread, I think we need more in depth thought than just "light them up with plasma from afar". I dont think we should work on the assumption that the GK General wont recognize his peril. I mean, are we really going to work on the assuymption that they will just line up for that? That they wont outflank you? That their land raider will go down to your plasma?
So, AP 1,2 or 3 weapons........ i play nids, what are these? Oh, wait!
We have bio-plasma, which comes in at 180 points on a fex lol.
But on a serious note, the main weakness is the fact they are points heavy.
So, small elite army and they drop just as easily as normal marines.
As a nid player though ive found a few tricks, but most rely on either having a lash-whip, a near-by harpy or stealers.
While a tyrant with guard is a nice idea, charging a unit with FW's isnt so much so.
Granted that shadow makes it risky to use anything psychic near it, its still a possibility.
So, warriors gain a use again!
Cheap, nasty warriors with bonesword and whip.
Harpies are simply just for multi assaults, since they half the enemies initiative and give you the 1st shot.
But by far the best unit for them? stealers, lots and lots of stealers. (this is usually my cure-all unit though)
High enough initiative to strike 1st, enough attacks to bury a GK unit and rending to make sure things go your way.
With multiple stealer units the broodlords are amazing and really do come into thier own.
Aura means each broodlord drops enemy units -1 LD within a 12" bubble, this does stack so makes it nasty (and ensures no FW are used for ID'ing him)
Gaze however, this is fun.
Since the enemy has reduced LD, you can stop an enemy from attacking that turn, so pick the most deadly one in the unit and get him BTB with the broodlord and watch him sit on his arse and do nothing.
Stealers allways have been a strong unit, but they really do shine against GK now as they can acually outfight them.
Also, Ymgarl stealers work just as well, but are a bit more costly and lack a broodlord.
However, they DS into a piece of terrain without scatter and can move, run and assault as normal on the turn they come in.
So, sit them in a bit of terrain the GK will be going past and jump straight into assault when you need to.
Thats pretty much it for killing, but there are 2 more things you can use for randomness.
1: If someone like draigo is going to be there, bring in deathleaper and drop his LD by D3 for the whole game. (lasts until leaper dies, but he does not have to be on the board)
2: Doom of malantai.
Works best when you have broodlords near by since he can get leach working really well and alas, it ignores armour.
Also, cataclysm is amusing since it heals the doom after you bomb them with a S1-10 AP1 pieplate.
So, against draigowing the doom usually earns a few hundred points and does severe damage when he comes in.
Surviving though, can have 10 wounds and allways has his 3++ so its possible.
Keep in mind that the dooms leach works at the start of the enemies shooting aswell, so you get 2x leach and a cataclysm before they can hurt him.
Killing ALL of them isn't necessary to win, i would point out. So that isn't a true issue. So much of Warhammer is figuring out how to pick your fights whenever you can.
That is warhammer... people who lose a lot say they had no choice in the fight.
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
A lot of times, it IS essential to kill or at least waylay as many of the enemy troop choices as possible, god forbid you wind up needing to cope with 5 objectives or something absurd like that.
Voodoo wrote:I play a purifier list. I think my biggest weaknesses are a mech guard melta vet list, and eldar. Eldar are just seriously annoying with those runes, anything with a hood is annoying too, just less so.
But mech guard are always a challenge and they dont even have psychic stuff most of the time. It's a combination of having so many bodies to throw at the situation, and all of them being able to shoot down a group of purifiers pretty much single handed. Sure I might be able to take out a chimera or two with my dreads, but theres always more, most of them are in cover, and guard has lots of ways of killing my dreads. add orders on top of that, saving troops that should be running away, and dont forget about artillery like manticore's or just an outflanking vendetta or two... guard have what it takes to win against purifiers, the same is true for draigowing as long as you dont get into reserve delay shenanigans too much. Henchman spam is probably easier than anything else, since they usually end up on foot and shot to pieces.
So MSU shooting with a lot of firepower is the way to go IMO, add some psychic defense and you really have a GK challenger. Eldar players are probably all saying "Thats me!" right now.
Some GK armies have a hard time vs. shooty IG. However, GK also have Dreadknight. If you have 2 or 3 in the army with teleporters able to scout or outflank, IG will have a hard time to get rid of them.
And if they have Dreadknights, they have less Psyflemen to counter other armies. Grey Knights have lots of nice units, but people really need to stop pretending they have everything in one list.
Crimson-King2120 wrote:high strength low ap blast wepons
This doesnt work if they spread out, if your oponent spreads out properly he can limit your hits to 1-2 models, now a good scatter may get 3 (woot!!) but thats if your lucky, now if he doesnt spread out.. then you are totally correct and punish the git for it
There are some decent opinions and solid theoryhammer going on around here - but serious lack of experience, wild guessing and some stupid preconceptions are creating not very accurate image of the grey knights. At first I would like to say that apart from several (but unfortunately very crucial) aspects grey knights are solid book, which offers variety of playable builds - you can play strike squads, purifiers, terminators, paladins, foot list with grey-knights, inquisition - all solid and beatable armies, but if you want to abuse hard - you can create some really ridiculous lists and combos.
So now I would like to list some popular opinions about grey-knights weaknesses which are false:
1) They are just regular marines and die just like regular marines
In case you havent slept over whole 5th edition you know, that apart from death-stars, marines inside the transports are always plan B and are used to hold/clear objectives and to finish survivors after tanks.
2) Pack lot of low ap blasts and plasma
Almost the same reason as in the first point (you need to kill those razorbacks and dreads first - they are causing most damage) + infantry has cover almost every time and because of the wound alocation - few plasma guns shooting with whole squads will in practice inflict less casualties than shooting without them - but we can realisticaly expect that 6th edition will change this.
3) They are expensive compared to the regular marines
There is no such thing as simply expensive or simply bad stats - all what is importand is if the unit is priced well compared to its abilities and grey knights not only are, but you also do not pay for your sergeants and you can get their weapon upgrades almost for free.
4) Psyriflemens are too overpowered
Yes, they are indeed underpriced - but do you think that you are loosing vs. grey knights only because their dreadnoughts are about 10 - 15 points cheaper than they should be?
And now some real strengths:
1) They are seriously resistant to the supression because of fortitude.
2) In 95% of situations every unit in their army (from any FOC) will be a threat to your units - things like psybolt ammo, psycanons, grenades and hammerhand offers great flexibility and vastly increases ability to harm wide range of targets
3) While most other armies are paying around 1/3 or even 1/2 of overall army points for their troops - grey knights can achieve similiar or even better capabilities in objective missions and in offensive output of their troops for around 1/4 or even less of their overall army points, giving them more points for other FOC options.
4) Grey knights can achieve "Imperialguardlike" target saturation in their lists - wall of razorbacks + dreadnoughts + spam of identical troop choices gives no obvious targets to shoot at - in such enviroment even things like stormraven can work at top level because everything else is a threat too and is affected by same type of weaponry.
5) Grey knights seriously ignore rules and archetypes which were working for years. Some things which grey knights can do and all other armies simply cannot : when they affect toughness value it counts toward determining of the instant death, when they buff their strentgh bonus is applied before other modifiers, force weapons for troop choices where everyone can activate their own regardless of how many psychic powers per turn they can actually cast, their sergeants have similiar stats as other marine armies but are for free and they can take similiar weaponry (even better) like other marine armies for significantly less or for free, stackable psychic powers, scoring units starting at 12 points? really?!?
So what does that all mean? Yes, average point value for unit/tank is higher than in other armies - but it does not matter, because grey knights does not pay for many things other armies must for and they can get many scoring units for much less - which gives them many points to invest into hammer units (purifiers, dreadnoughts, death cults...) and powerfull support characters (coteaz, grand master, librarian...) and equipment (grenades, grenades and yes - more grenades) - so in the end, they are not really that expensive. Tell me, how many armies can invest around 300-400 points into support characters without breaking a sweat?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also since i started I should also type something about (currently) most successfull grey knight army - and that is coteaz henchmen spam + dreads + other support HQ + death cults + PORC (pile or random crap). It is not by all means only competitive grey knight list - events were won by completely different ones - purifiers, strike squads spam and heck even foot list with dreadknights...but by my guess coteaz + henchmen was in about 70% of winning builds. Now where the fun part? If you actually spent time on my last post you can pretty much guess, but lets elaborate...
So, lets build us some competitive grey knight force shall we? Lets say 1800 points so we need to "make" choices (lol, not really)...
So we need some troops and HQ:
Coteaz is 100 points and since most events have around 2 objectives for troops every game and if we play by rulebook 2/3 of games played on objectives - lets try to make this strong aspect of our army - lets add 5-6 MSU henchmens in psybacks (well lets take "just" 5, we will increase our objective capabilities later) and that is 315 points with psybacks + searchlights.
We have our core - HQ + 5 troop choices + 5 AV 11 boxes + 15 twin-linked str6 BS4 shots at 36 inches range for 415 points - not bad huh?
Since we have many points left, lets add more tech and support - second HQ. I guess many of you are now shouting LIBRARIAN, LIBRARIAN - but nah, lets be even MORE ridiculous, well add grandmaster + incinerator + rad and psycho grenades - thats 210 of pure gold, you maybe need to try it to understand it.
Now lets add something more mandatory - 3x psyriflemen-dreads with search lights - thats 408 points
1033 points so far - and even now I am getting scared...
We also really need some death cults - 6x death cult + 3x crusader - 135 points
...And now their ride - lets get more ridiculous, lets take storm raven while remaining competitive shall we? - 205 points + searchlihgts, there is really no need to invest more points here. We also kept one place empty for Coteaz if his second hammerhand would be beneficial.
1374 points now - and on the table it certainly looks more like 1500-1600 points army already.ยจ
So what now? We have dakka, we can close combat, we have many scoring options - but we can get even better, we have many points left - lets take something which can benefit from grand-strategy to give us even more options, something flexible, always usefull - which can perhaps help us against hordes and give us even more target saturation - lets take purifiers.
Ten purifiers + 4 psycanons + 4 halberds + 2 hammers where one is mastercrafted in rhino with searchlights and dozer blades - 344 points, this unit can easily switch rhino for stormraven should need arise, coteaz + death cults can then take rhino if you need sister-like counter-charge unit.
1718 points so far - since I have chosen 1800 as the limit, I dont have better idea than to add another psyback henchmen unit for total of 9 possible scoring units!!!
For spare points we have many viable options - we can buy psy ammon for stormraven, some melta on henchmen if current metagame demands it, switch some upgrades on purifiers - all depending on your current metagame.
Think about this sample army - 1800 points. 11 AV 11/12 vehicles, 7-9 scoring units (or some nice buffs on hammer infantry), 2 capable "death-stars" (cults + grenades + possible hammerhand will totaly obliterate any other deathstar), LOT of dakka - this army, whilst it is strongest in objective missions, is able to table many opponents. It has it weaknesess, but it has way more strengths to offer (and lot of variability in playing)- and thats the fun part of any grey knight list - you can get tons of troops so cheap, that you will have spare points for anything you like, anything to suit your metagame.
Also on a side-note. Someone posted henchmen build in this thread too and it contained assault-canon razorbacks with henchmen - that is really NOT a good idea in such a type of list. It gives obvious target amongst razorbacks - which likes to sit back with dreadnoughts anyway, so you can very well be even out of range. Assault-canon psybacks are nice pick in purifier-oriented armies where you ride everything in the middle of the table to make best use of your spammed 24 inch shooting. In coteaz build, in most situations anyway, you will castle in your deployment area with psybacks so your dreadnoughts will always have cover and so that they cannot be assaulted - 5-6 psybacks hugging around 3 dreads is not a nice view, you really do not know what to shoot at - dreads own you at range, but they have cover, you can shoot at stormraven or rhino, but psybacks have good shooting too - excelent saturation, until you play against similiar grey-knight list several times you really dont know much about how powerfull grey-knights can be...
Formosa wrote:what i have found with my DA vs GK that works (as someone else put it DA are like playing 40k on hard modem vs GK its Extreme hard mode lol)
this is my standard DW list
Bob
TH/SS
2 DW termy units
3xTH/SS, 2 LC, cyclone
Land raider x2
extra armour
3 x Typhoon
mm (all seperate)
with this list it truly is uphill, but mostly due to the GK players i have actually played, those dreads will ALWAYS get a shake on my raiders limiting my firepower and god forbid i actually let them get a clean shot on my speeders, the rest of the GK force i treat the same as Deamons (funny that) and backpeddle away from them in my raiders, but the large amount of str8+ i have deals with paladins fairly easily, depending on the size of units and wound alocation shenanigans, i usually dont fire
most of my multi shot weapons (HB or frags) as this will limit my casualties.
I dont bother taking Ravenwing at the moment as unfortunately they are not as good as vanilla ones and cost alot more, this is not the fault of GK of course lol, but what must be said for RW is there best at range 24" and this is where GK rock too, but there cheaper and can hurt me more.
Green wing list is suprisingly good but that is because i rock an ass ton of plasma.. i mean its obscene, but this can be done better by vanilla too so its not just DA
So just to sum up what i have found has worked.
Str8-9
Ap2 (not 3, 2 is better)
Do not always fire all your weapons, sometimes getting those 1 or 2 garenteed kills is better than the wound alo shenanigans that allow them to take less wounds.
Blast weapons are next to useless vs a player that spaces properly (i take plas cans so my oponents do this often) but this isnt restricted to GK plasma plasma plasma..guns
well i hope i helped, didnt see much "how to beat GK" in this how to beat GK thread
this isnt a how to beat grey knights. This is weakness thread. You find what they suck at dealing with. Beating them is up to you. Also props for running DA against Grey Knights and more props for doing it with death wing. If anything Dark Angels terminator spamm isn't all that it use to be.
true it isnt what it used to be, but thats mainly because we cant spam the living crap outa land raiders lol... still think land raiders should be 200pts ... -_- no one will ever agree though
) Skulltaker easily bested the Dreadknight in one round (!), though it was kind of an uphill battle catching up with a teleporter pack 
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