It came up in a game recently during Dawn of War deployment. My opponent insists that I have to declare that my search light is being used in order for my already-successful roll-to-see (i.e. 2D6 x 3) to also activate Search Light. Otherwise, my weapon will shoot but another vehicle shooting will get no benefit.

In other words,

I declare my Rhino shoots at his unit. I roll and I can see him. I shoot my Stormbolter. No wound (as always)
I declare my Razorback now shoots at the same unit. He says I have to roll to see because Searchlight was not declared to be used last time.

I was on the bottom turn so I guess it make sense for him to try to deny as much Searchlight effect as possible. It was a friendly game after all so I didn't quibble.

UPDATE: (current) final verdict on the issue:
1- You don't have a choice whether to use Searchlight or not. When Night Fighting is in effect, a roll to spot will activate search light if it is successful.
2- (Only) On a successful roll to spot, the shooting and the target vehicles are both illuminated (per the rule).
3- Once a target is illuminated, further shooting at that target from another vehicle does not activate search light for these vehicles since no roll to spot is used (because Night Fighting rule is removed for the target vehicle)

Searchlights aren't optional. If you successfully fire a weapon during Night Fight, the searchlight goes off as well.

You really should make sure to declare the use of your searchlight. Normally how I play is as long as you declare it while shooting with the unit that has the searchlight it's all good. This is especially true if you had been at the top of the turn because if you had used the searchlight your opponent could of seen your vehicle clearly.

@insaniak: I was trying to find the rule for that but I couldn't in the quick 30 seconds that I tried.

@CrashCanuck: I should have but then I didn't know if it was optional or not.

I just looked up the wording of searchlights in the C:SM and it doesn't say it's optional or mandatory. I have always played that it is optional and haven't had an opponent argue that.

leohart wrote:@insaniak: I was trying to find the rule for that but I couldn't in the quick 30 seconds that I tried.

There is no rule that specifically says 'Searchlights are no optional'... it just doesn't give you a choice as to whether or not to use them in their rules. When you successfully spot a target, the searchlight works. No declaration is required by the rules.


Having said that, it's certainly polite to mention the searchlight when it goes off, in case your opponent doesn't realise that your vehicles have them (particularly if you don't have them modelled).

CrashCanuck wrote:You really should make sure to declare the use of your searchlight. Normally how I play is as long as you declare it while shooting with the unit that has the searchlight it's all good. This is especially true if you had been at the top of the turn because if you had used the searchlight your opponent could of seen your vehicle clearly.

But only after the target is acquired. If the Night Fighting roll is not enough to spot the target the searchlight does nothing. It only illuminates the target after it is acquired.

ToBeWilly wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:You really should make sure to declare the use of your searchlight. Normally how I play is as long as you declare it while shooting with the unit that has the searchlight it's all good. This is especially true if you had been at the top of the turn because if you had used the searchlight your opponent could of seen your vehicle clearly.

But only after the target is acquired. If the Night Fighting roll is not enough to spot the target the searchlight does nothing. It only illuminates the target after it is acquired.

Of course, that is said right in the rules for them.

If searchlight is in fact not optional, wouldn't that mean any vehicle shooting at a searchlighted vehicle will become sitting duck on the bottom player turn?

Yes it would.

CrashCanuck wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:

CrashCanuck wrote:You really should make sure to declare the use of your searchlight. Normally how I play is as long as you declare it while shooting with the unit that has the searchlight it's all good. This is especially true if you had been at the top of the turn because if you had used the searchlight your opponent could of seen your vehicle clearly.

But only after the target is acquired. If the Night Fighting roll is not enough to spot the target the searchlight does nothing. It only illuminates the target after it is acquired.

Of course, that is said right in the rules for them.

What I mean to say is, it wouldn't matter if you declared it or not, the searchlight doesn't illuminate the firing vehicle (the one shooting the searchlight) unless it illuminates the target. If you do not spot anything with the Night Fighting roll, searchlights do nothing, including making the firing vehicle visible to the enemy.

Hmm, that would change my previous tournament play a LOT. My single rhino was taking a beating top turn and I rolled poorly on seeing of my shooting while I shouldn't have to roll.

I have read the entry of Search light just now and I am not sure if this intepretation is correct:

1) Night fighting rule in effect => Search light will be used.
2) First vehicle shoot, successfully acquire target => both models are illuminated.
3) Second vehicle shoot at the same target will ignore night fighting rule (see entry). Thus 1 will not apply. So second vehicle is not lit up.

My turn of shooting, I shoot at the 2nd vehicle, I would still have to roll to see no?

leohart wrote:If searchlight is in fact not optional, wouldn't that mean any vehicle shooting at a searchlighted vehicle will become sitting duck on the bottom player turn?

Yes. Every vehicle that has a searchlight and shoots something during night fight will be illuminated. You can't choose to not use the searchlight, so it will automatically apply.

insaniak wrote:Yes. Every vehicle that has a searchlight and shoots something during night fight will be illuminated. You can't choose to not use the searchlight, so it will automatically apply.

I question this. If you do not need to roll for Night Fight your searchlights can't go off. The rule states, "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target.."

No night fighting roll no searchlights.

leohart wrote:3) Second vehicle shoot at the same target will ignore night fighting rule (see entry). Thus 1 will not apply. So second vehicle is not lit up.

Actually, yes, that would be correct. Shooting at an already lit vehicle would mean that your searchlight doesn't go off.

insaniak wrote:There is no rule that specifically says 'Searchlights are no optional'... it just doesn't give you a choice as to whether or not to use them in their rules. When you successfully spot a target, the searchlight works. No declaration is required by the rules.


Having said that, it's certainly polite to mention the searchlight when it goes off, in case your opponent doesn't realise that your vehicles have them (particularly if you don't have them modelled).

This, precisely.
iirc there were some that used to be optional, but no longer.

insaniak wrote:

leohart wrote:3) Second vehicle shoot at the same target will ignore night fighting rule (see entry). Thus 1 will not apply. So second vehicle is not lit up.

Actually, yes, that would be correct. Shooting at an already lit vehicle would mean that your searchlight doesn't go off.

Exactly so. If you successfully roll to spot, and you have a searchlight, you automatically use it. If you fail the roll, or never roll to spot in the first place, you don't use it.

Insaniak has it correct.

1) If a model/vehicle/unit has a search light and rolls for night fight, then it is using it's search light.

2) If successful, then any unit in your army can fire at the target unit without rolling night fight. Since you didn't roll for night fight, you are not using it for any other unit that may be equipped with search lights.

3) Even if you are unsuccessful with the night fight roll, you are illuminated (if you have a search light) and may be shot at by your opponent without your opponent needing to roll for night fighting range.

imweasel wrote:3) Even if you are unsuccessful with the night fight roll, you are illuminated (if you have a search light) and may be shot at by your opponent without your opponent needing to roll for night fighting range.

I disagree with this. You must acquire the target first before the searchlight illuminates it. if you can't spot the target unit the searchlight does nothing.

ToBeWilly wrote:

imweasel wrote:3) Even if you are unsuccessful with the night fight roll, you are illuminated (if you have a search light) and may be shot at by your opponent without your opponent needing to roll for night fighting range.

I disagree with this. You must acquire the target first before the searchlight illuminates it. if you can't spot the target unit the searchlight does nothing.

Have you read the rule? No where does it state that you have to successfully use the searchlight, just that you used it.

"However, a vehicle that uses a searchlight, can be targeted during the following enemy turn, as if the night fighting rules were not in effect, as the enemy can see the searchlight."

I have no idea how you reached your conclusion.

To use a searchlight, you must illuminate your target.
If you fail to roll the distance, the searchlight isn't used.

rigeld2 wrote:To use a searchlight, you must illuminate your target.
If you fail to roll the distance, the searchlight isn't used.

Simply by rolling night fight, you are using a searchlight if you have one equipped.

Once again, show in the rules where the searchlight is only 'used' on a successful night fight roll.

The rules don't say that at all.

The illuminate only happens on a successful night fight roll.

If you're arguing based on the first sentence ("Searchlights are used where the night fight rule is in place") then it doesn't even matter if you shoot or not.

The "However" clause comes after a successful use, not any use.

I will have to wait until I get home to read the rule from the codec.

But I don't believe you are correct in your assumption.

Targets that are already lit don't need night fight rolls. Targets that are shooting at them ignore the night fight rules.

imweasel wrote:I will have to wait until I get home to read the rule from the codec.

But I don't believe you are correct in your assumption.

Targets that are already lit don't need night fight rolls. Targets that are shooting at them ignore the night fight rules.

See the part I put in quotes? That's a direct quote from the Space Marine codex.
So either you only light yourself up if you light up your target,
or you are always lit up, whether or not you shoot.

Those are your two choices.

rigeld2 wrote:either you only light yourself up if you light up your target,
or you are always lit up, whether or not you shoot.

Those are your two choices.

I read it that way too, but maybe it doesn't have to be.
"Searchlights are used when the night fighting rule is in effect."
Full stop.

It goes on to describe how to illuminate a unit with it, but never actually states that is the only thing that causes it to be "used".

Realistically (I know, I know!) it makes more sense that the illumination is not required to succeed, and literally it seems possible that I have just misread it until now.

More time to read!

editing two wrong words

Right - I disagree with the idea that you're always lit up, even if you choose not to shoot, but it's supported if you take the "However" sentence to apply to the entire rules.

If you take the "However" sentence to only apply to a successful illumination (the way you'd normally read the paragraph) you're only lit up when you lite someone else up.

rigeld2 wrote:Right - I disagree with the idea that you're always lit up, even if you choose not to shoot, but it's supported if you take the "However" sentence to apply to the entire rules.

If you take the "However" sentence to only apply to a successful illumination (the way you'd normally read the paragraph) you're only lit up when you lite someone else up.

The issue though, is that you necessarily are using the searchlight if you are attempting to illuminate a target.

Weird.

Also, it is just as easy to read that "However" as a warning that there is a downside to (even attempting?) this.

Hmm, maybe THAT'S why Eldar have no searchlights!

But seriously, having a searchlight means you are illuminated in Night Fighting regardless of if illuminate something else seems wrong.

jwolf wrote:But seriously, having a searchlight means you are illuminated in Night Fighting regardless of if illuminate something else seems wrong.

That was my initial reaction too, but only because I have always seen it played that way.

The more I read and think about it the more it makes sense.
Do you have a spot light on your vehicle shining bright?
Guess what? People can see you in the dark!

So, what is the final verdict? so I can update the original post.

I am inclined to say that imweasel is correct, but that few ever play with his third assertion.
I am having a hard time faulting it though.

here is the rule sans fluff:

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

So it tells you that when night fighting is in effect, that is when searchlights are used.

Then it goes on to explain how they are used.

So how do you use a searchlight?

You use the night fighting rules to pick a target

Then what?

Having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

So only if you illuminate the target have you used the searchlight.

DeathReaper wrote:here is the rule sans fluff:

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

So it tells you that when night fighting is in effect, that is when searchlights are used.

Then it goes on to explain how they are used.

So how do you use a searchlight?

You use the night fighting rules to pick a target

Then what?

Having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

So only if you illuminate the target have you used the searchlight.

Actually, the first sentence says that a searchlight is used when Night Fighting is in effect. You don't have a choice.
The effect of a Searchlight is to illuminate a target you've acquired by using the Night Fight rules.
But using it happens when Night Fight rules are in effect and you're equipped with it.
So regardless of you attempting to fire - you're lit up.

What constitutes the use of a searchlight? Does the vehicle use the searchlight merely by being equipped with it? Or, does the vehicle use the searchlight when it illuminates an acquired target? I believe it's the latter. The vehicle uses the searchlight after it acquires a target. If it doesn't acquire a target it doesn't use the searchlight.


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rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:here is the rule sans fluff:

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect. If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

So it tells you that when night fighting is in effect, that is when searchlights are used.

Then it goes on to explain how they are used.

So how do you use a searchlight?

You use the night fighting rules to pick a target

Then what?

Having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight.

So only if you illuminate the target have you used the searchlight.

Actually, the first sentence says that a searchlight is used when Night Fighting is in effect. You don't have a choice.
The effect of a Searchlight is to illuminate a target you've acquired by using the Night Fight rules.
But using it happens when Night Fight rules are in effect and you're equipped with it.
So regardless of you attempting to fire - you're lit up.

That is telling us when they are used. How they are used is described latter.

ToBeWilly wrote:What constitutes the use of a searchlight? Does the vehicle use the searchlight merely by being equipped with it? Or, does the vehicle use the searchlight when it illuminates an acquired target? I believe it's the latter. The vehicle uses the searchlight after it acquires a target. If it doesn't acquire a target it doesn't use the searchlight.

Your belief disagrees with the first sentence of the Searchlight rules.
"Searchlights are used where the Night Fighting rules are in effect."
So if the Night Fighting rules are in effect, Searchlights are used.
There's no option. It just happens.

The issue really is whether they are used if they are not successfully used, and logically that has to be yes since they are not optional.

ToBeWilly wrote:That is telling us when they are used. How they are used is described latter.

Correct.
The "However" sentence doesn't care about how.
It only says "However, a vehicle that uses a Searchlight..." which means that any time a Searchlight is used, the user is illuminated.
There's no bound on the first sentence that says when they are used. Which means they are used when Night Fighting is in effect.
So when Night Fighting is in effect, they are used - and you're illuminated.


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kirsanth wrote:The issue really is whether they are used if they are not successfully used, and logically that has to be yes since they are not optional.

I disagree - the first sentence establishes use where the Night Fighting rules are in effect.
So the issue is larger than that - the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

I disagree. Searchlights are only used after you acquire a target. If you do not acquire a target searchlights are not used.

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The issue really is whether they are used if they are not successfully used, and logically that has to be yes since they are not optional.

I disagree - the first sentence establishes use where the Night Fighting rules are in effect.
So the issue is larger than that - the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

That was my initial thought - well, secondary since initially I thought this was incorrect!
The thing is, without shooting the night fight rules are not in effect.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The issue really is whether they are used if they are not successfully used, and logically that has to be yes since they are not optional.

I disagree - the first sentence establishes use where the Night Fighting rules are in effect.
So the issue is larger than that - the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

That was my initial thought - well, secondary since initially I thought this was incorrect!
The thing is, without shooting the night fight rules are not in effect.

Not true. You only make Night Fighting checks while the Night Fighting rules are in effect, but the Night Fighting rules are in effect (for example) "During game Turn 1 the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect." in Dawn of War.

So for the entire Game Turn, the NF rules are in effect. When they're in effect Searchlights are used.


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ToBeWilly wrote:I disagree. Searchlights are only used after you acquire a target. If you do not acquire a target searchlights are not used.

Rules support? The SM codex disagrees.

rigeld2 wrote:So for the entire Game Turn, the NF rules are in effect. When they're in effect Searchlights are used.

Funnily enough, its the rest of the rules about timing that still have us disagreeing about why we agree.

heh

We are given the timing of their use - that is why the others think the use can be avoided.

rigeld2 wrote:the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

Citation needed.

The first line of the rule does not tell us how the searchlights work. They just tell us when the searchlights are able to be used. (The use is automatic upon spotting, but you only spot when Night fight is in effect we find this out in the second part of the rule.)

So, your saying, the very fact you have a searchlight equipped vehicle means any enemy unit may target it with out rolling for night fight, regardless if you tried to fire it or not?

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:the issue is if just having the wargear constitues use. I think it does.

Citation needed.

The first line of the rule does not tell us how the searchlights work. They just tell us when the searchlights are able to be used. (The use is automatic upon spotting, but you only spot when Night fight is in effect we find this out in the second part of the rule.)

Actually no - the first sentence says when they are used.
The rest of the rule describes how to use them and what they do. But they are used when Night Fighting is in effect.


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ToBeWilly wrote:So, your saying, the very fact you have a searchlight equipped vehicle means any enemy unit may target it with out rolling for night fight, regardless if you tried to fire it or not?

According to the rules yes. If, that is, the "However" sentence applies to more than just the successful spot.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So for the entire Game Turn, the NF rules are in effect. When they're in effect Searchlights are used.

Funnily enough, its the rest of the rules about timing that still have us disagreeing about why we agree.

heh

We are given the timing of their use - that is why the others think the use can be avoided.

The timing is when Night Fighting rules are in effect. Night Fighting rules are in effect for the entire game turn.
I don't see any flaw with that connection. Can someone point it out?

I am confusing myself reading posts instead of rules.

My point is that the ACTUAL Night Fighting rules themselves only occur after selecting a target.

kirsanth wrote:I am confusing myself reading posts instead of rules.

My point is that the ACTUAL Night Fighting rules themselves only occur after selecting a target.

But they're in effect for the entire game turn. Which is all the first sentence of Searchlight says - in effect.

The flaw in that connection is that you do not use the searchlight unless you spot a target.

rigeld2 wrote:Actually no - the first sentence says when they are used.
The rest of the rule describes how to use them and what they do. But they are used when Night Fighting is in effect.

Which is what I said...

We know when spotlights are used- when the night fighting rules are in effect.

But the searchlight can not be used until they tell us how to use it.

and you use the searchlight is used upon successfully spotting a target. and not automatically all the time when it is night fight.

DeathReaper wrote:The flaw in that connection is that you do not successfully use the searchlight unless you spot a target.

That is the way I have been reading it now.


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DeathReaper wrote:you use the searchlight is used upon successfully spotting a target. and not automatically all the time when it is night fight.

And this is how I used to read it.

Editing to add:
I am going to go have some coffee. Methinks I am simply confusing myself.

DeathReaper wrote:We know when spotlights are used- when the night fighting rules are in effect.

But the searchlight can not be used until they tell us how to use it.

False assumption. It is used while Night Fighting is in effect, but only has an effect after you spot a unit.

and you use the searchlight is used upon successfully spotting a target. and not automatically all the time when it is night fight.

The searchlight illuminates the target after it's been successfully spotted, but that's the effect, not the use.
The rule doesn't say "It's used when you make a successful night fighting check".
The rule doesn't say "However, a vehicle that successfully spots..."

It is not a false assumption.

a searchlight is used when night fighting is in effect.

But how do you use it?

The second sentence tells us how to use the searchlight. Rather that they are automatically used when you successfully spot a target.

"it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

This is how you actually use the searchlight, so you only use the searchlight after having acquired a target using the night fighting rules.

DeathReaper wrote:It is not a false assumption.

a searchlight is used when night fighting is in effect.

But how do you use it?

The second sentence tells us how to use the searchlight. Rather that they are automatically used when you successfully spot a target.

"it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

This is how you actually use the searchlight, so you only use the searchlight after having acquired a target using the night fighting rules.

Funny, I don't see "This is the use of" I see a description of an effect.
The effect only happens on a successful night fight check, but they're used when the night fight rules are in effect.

rigeld2 wrote:The effect only happens on a successful night fight check, but they're used when the night fight rules are in effect.

The drawback hinges on using a searchlight. "A vehicle that uses a searchlight, can be targeted..."(BA book 61)

And how do you use a searchlight?

does this "Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." tell you how you use a searchlight?

Or does this? "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

Linguistics say it is the second one.

So assuming the searchlight is always ON...
If a vehicle shoots an already illuminated target, it's searchlight would then be turned OFF as the target "does not use the Night Fighting rule" while illuminated? Seems a slightly backwards way of doing things.

(quoted from the IG codex, not sure if the wording is different from the SM one)

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The effect only happens on a successful night fight check, but they're used when the night fight rules are in effect.

The drawback hinges on using a searchlight. "A vehicle that uses a searchlight, can be targeted..."(BA book 61)

Slightly different from the SM one, but close enough it's irrelevant (SM says "However, a vehicle...")

And how do you use a searchlight?

You don't. You have no choice in the matter. Searchlights are used (ie - turned on) when NF is in effect, and the effect they have happens when a successful NF check is made.

Shrouding is used "during the opponent's Shooting phase". Its effect is only realized when the unit suffers a wound, however. See how use can be separated from effect?

grendel083 wrote:If a vehicle shoots an already illuminated target, it's searchlight would then be turned OFF as the target "does not use the Night Fighting rule" while illuminated?

No. It's always on. The NF rule is in effect during the game turn, but you do not roll a night fighting check if you're shooting an illuminated target.

Two things named the same in 40k that are completely different. One is an effect that lasts for game turns, the other is a roll you make to be able to fire.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:]And how do you use a searchlight?

You don't. You have no choice in the matter. Searchlights are used (ie - turned on) when NF is in effect, and the effect they have happens when a successful NF check is made.

Yes you do use a searchlight. Their use is automatic upon acquiring a target.

That is how you use a searchlight. The rules back this up by saying: "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." does not tell you how you use a searchlight. It tells you when you use a searchlight. and you use it as outlined with the next sentence.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:]And how do you use a searchlight?

You don't. You have no choice in the matter. Searchlights are used (ie - turned on) when NF is in effect, and the effect they have happens when a successful NF check is made.

Yes you do use a searchlight. Their use is automatic upon acquiring a target.

I see no rule saying that.

That is how you use a searchlight. The rules back this up by saying: "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..."

I see nothing in that sentence saying that a searchlight is used. I see a sentence describing the effect of a searchlight when you use the night fighting rules.

"Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." does not tell you how you use a searchlight. It tells you when you use a searchlight. and you use it as outlined with the next sentence.

It says when searchlights are used. You agree to that.
The Night Fighting rules are in effect for the game turn. You can't dispute that.
Therefore searchlights are used for the entire game turn. You dispute that?

You're still attaching use to effect. Stop doing that without a reason to.

Then you are reading it incorrectly.

What constitutes the Use of a searchlight?

Is (#1) "Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." the use of said searchlight?

Or is (#2) "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight..." the use of said searchlight?

Linguistics say #2 is the use, and #1 is when the use can occur

DeathReaper wrote:Is (#1) "Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." the use of said searchlight?

It's telling you when it is used.


Your #2 is telling you how it is used. But you're not looking for the how... In order to determine if the searchlight was used at a given time, you look at the rule that says when the searchlight is used.


If the searchlight is used, the vehicle illuminates itself. The searchlight is used when the Night Fight rule is in effect. The Night Fight rule is in effect when you try to target a vehicle that has not already been illuminated.

Whether or not your spotting roll is successful, the Night Fight rule is in effect. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have rolled for spotting distance. And because the Night Fight rule is in effect, the searchlight was used.

rigeld2 wrote:Actually, the first sentence says that a searchlight is used when Night Fighting is in effect. You don't have a choice.

You're reading way too much into that one sentence. All it does is tell you when the searchlight can be used, nothing more. If I tell someone that they can use a ranged weapon in the Shooting Phase I haven't made it mandatory for them to shoot, just that if they want to shoot that is when they do so.

SM Codex: First Searchlight Illuminates, all others at that target do not go off.

SM Codex Text that confirms: "Searchlights are used when the night fighting rule is in effect." Skip 1 sentence. "For the rest of the shooting phase, any other unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the night fighting special rule."

IG Codex: exact same as SM Codex in all respects.

SW Codex: exact same as SM Codex in all respects.

BA Codex: exact same as SM Codex in all respects.

GK Codex: exact same as SM Codex in all respects.

BT Codex: exact same effect as SM Codex in all respects.

DA Codex: exact same as SM Codex in all respects.

It's called reading the rules people, it is not that hard: If you are not using the Night fighting rules then the Search light has no effect. The first searchlight removes the night fighting rule from the target unit.



No further units(after the first unit to illuminate the target unit) shooting at the illuminated unit ever use their Searchlights.

insaniak wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Is (#1) "Searchlights are used where the night fighting rule is in effect." the use of said searchlight?

It's telling you when it is used.


Your #2 is telling you how it is used. But you're not looking for the how... In order to determine if the searchlight was used at a given time, you look at the rule that says when the searchlight is used.


If the searchlight is used, the vehicle illuminates itself. The searchlight is used when the Night Fight rule is in effect. The Night Fight rule is in effect when you try to target a vehicle that has not already been illuminated.

Whether or not your spotting roll is successful, the Night Fight rule is in effect. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have rolled for spotting distance. And because the Night Fight rule is in effect, the searchlight was used.

It's telling you when it is able to be used.

The next sentence goes about detailing how you use the searchlight.

Its use is mandatory upon a successful night fighting roll. "having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight." that is how the searchlight is used. after acquiring a target.

Without a successful roll you do not acquired a target so you will not illuminate it with the searchlight thus you have not used the searchlight.

Agree with Death Reaper.

The first sentence is telling us that these are only used when the Night Fighting rules are in play. So players know that's when Searchlights matter, and that they need to refer to those rules.

Searchlights are then used if and when you successfully spot a target.

If and when you actually use them, you then also illuminate yourself.

Mannahnin wrote:Agree with Death Reaper.

The first sentence is telling us that these are only used when the Night Fighting rules are in play. So players know that's when Searchlights matter, and that they need to refer to those rules.

Searchlights are then used if and when you successfully spot a target.

If and when you actually use them, you then also illuminate yourself.

Agree with this one completely. If it was the other way around, people would pay points NOT to have searchlights.

I stand by original summary.

imweasel wrote:I stand by original summary.

The one that has no basis?
Either the "However" statement applies to the entire set of rules (meaning you're always illuminated) or it only applies if you successfully illuminate. Linguistically it's the latter.

rigeld2 wrote:

imweasel wrote:I stand by original summary.

The one that has no basis?
Either the "However" statement applies to the entire set of rules (meaning you're always illuminated) or it only applies if you successfully illuminate. Linguistically it's the latter.

There is no basis that the searchlight is always illuminated. I have no idea where you are getting that 'however' would make it apply to the entire set of rules. It's simply implying HOW the penalty occurs, when the searchlight is used. Such as one of the definitions of 'however' : '3. In what way. Used as an intensive of how: However did you get here so soon?'.

imweasel wrote: It's simply implying HOW the penalty occurs, when the searchlight is used. Such as one of the definitions of 'however' : '3. In what way. Used as an intensive of how: However did you get here so soon?'.

Right.

And what basis do you have for tying use to an unsuccessful Night Fight roll?

rigeld2 wrote:Right.

And what basis do you have for tying use to an unsuccessful Night Fight roll?

That's what it tells us to do.

"...having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight." Codex: Space Marines, page 103.

You must have a target before you use the searchlight. If you have no target, you do not use the searchlight.

ToBeWilly wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Right.

And what basis do you have for tying use to an unsuccessful Night Fight roll?

That's what it tells us to do.

"...having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight." Codex: Space Marines, page 103.

You must have a target before you use the searchlight. If you have no target, you do not use the searchlight.

That ties use to a successful Night Fight roll. iamweasel asserted that even an unsuccessful Night Fight roll would illuminate the person trying to fire.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/454942.page#4390987 editing this link in to show the post I'm referencing

I think the misunderstanding comes from the "is used when the night fighting rules are in effect." This is a pointless sentence, no different than saying "a boltgun is used in the shooting phase." This does not mean the boltgun is automatically used every shooting phase. So the searchlight is not used just because it's dark.

No matter how you look at the situation realistically it makes no sense. However, the rules are implying that the searchlight is never turned on until a target is clearly spotted. A good reason for this is because it's basically suicide to use a searchlight. If the light is never turned on then it's not being used.

LOL I thought this was going to be a bs thread, but it's actually not!

Here's what happens in real life, for reference:
1) Some attacking units try to light targets.
2) Some attacking units stay "dark" and try to fire at lit targets.
3) All defending units can fire at any attackers *trying* to light targets.

No rules there, but can the rules be interpreted to reflect real life? Actually, like Kirsanth I haven't been playing it that way, but it looks like they can:

1) If a unit has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target
2) any other unit that fires at the illuminated target does not use the Night Fighting rules
3) a vehicle that uses a searchlight, can be targeted ... as if the Night Fighting rules were not in effect

Basically, "using" a searchlight is attempting to fire at a target while Night Fight is active. Doesn't necessarily have to successfully illuminate the target - just trying to is enough to expose the searchlight unit. Then any units that also fire at the illuminated target, keep their searchlights dark.

Note that the definition of "uses a searchlight" is ambiguous, but it could be interpreted to reflect real-life, so that's what I'd do. Makes no sense for all searchlight equipped units to be exposed, makes no sense for those not trying to light someone up to be exposed, but does make sense for failed attempts to expose the searchlighter.

Also note that as night fight has gone from being a rare thing to "every time the damn Necrons are on the table" thing, we can probably expect the general Night Fight rules to get some love in 6th Ed. so I wouldn't think getting emotionally invested in the current verbiage either way would be rewarding.

I'd disagree that a failed attempt would light you up in real life.
Since the searchlight isn't assisting with the Night Fight check, you're using your normal "unaided" eyes to find the target. After that it's trivial to turn on the light and point it at the bad guy.

I've always played it (and will continue to do so for the next twoish weeks ) that a failed NF test doesn't light you up.

Randall Turner wrote:LOL I thought this was going to be a bs thread, but it's actually not!

Here's what happens in real life, for reference:

No rules there, but can the rules be interpreted to reflect real life? it looks like they can

The underlined is not correct.

The rules were not written to be "Real World" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

What would happen in the real world has nothing to do with the RAW.

Randall Turner wrote:Basically, "using" a searchlight is attempting to fire at a target while Night Fight is active. Doesn't necessarily have to successfully illuminate the target - just trying to is enough to expose the searchlight unit. Then any units that also fire at the illuminated target, keep their searchlights dark.

The above is also incorrect.

you only use a searchlight if you spot the unit successfully.

I agree with rigeld2 (which is weird because I thought he was on the other side).

Unfortunately Randall, this is one of those things where real life has nothing to do with stupid rules.

erikwfg wrote:Unfortunately Randall, this is one of those things where real life has nothing to do with stupid rules.

You mean just like all the other rules?

Real life never has anything to do with the rules.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

What would happen in the real world has nothing to do with the RAW.

This is all obsolete doctrine, but In real life you're typically aiming the light at muzzle flashes, or as in Vietnam just general battlefield illumination. It's entirely possible, if not likely, to turn on the light without capturing something in the beam. But who knows how they're using them in the 41st Century, honestly why they're equipped with them in 40K still when even our modern 21st Century AFV's no longer come with them, I have no clue - seems like we'd all be using something like Tau Blacksun Filters etc. FFS, they haven't even used IR spotlights for what, decades now? So anything you decide on I think is supportable both "realistically" and in terms of rule interpretation. Except exposing *all* light equipped AFV's, that's not right.

erikwfg wrote:(which is weird because I thought he was on the other side).

I was arguing as a devils advocate trying to get solid arguments for my side.
I can see how someone could read the rules the way I was arguing, but I don't think that's the correct way to interpret the rule.

I think you went too far with the "if equipped, exposed" thing though, Rigeld2. In other words, the reducto ad absurdium ended up with something that was far enough from "reality" that it offended our sensibilities. The actual "new issue" here, though, I think is valid - what does constitute "use" of a searchlight? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the crux of it.)

Randall Turner wrote:I think you went too far with the "if equipped, exposed" thing though, Rigeld2. In other words, the reducto ad absurdium ended up with something that was far enough from "reality" that it offended our sensibilities. The actual "new issue" here, though, I think is valid - what does constitute "use" of a searchlight? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the crux of it.)

It's possible I went too far. Sorry if it bothered anyone.

I don't see a way for "use" to mean anything other than a successful NF test.

No lol "offends sensibilities" doesn't mean "offends", it means far enough away from what seems "right" that it feels wrong. Subjective feel thing. No "offense".

As to the key issue of "uses a searchlight" meaning anything other than successful NF test, welp, how about an *unsuccessful* NF test? Reading the verbiage for searchlghts (I'm using Imperial Guard here, they're virtually identical) that seems supportable too. You're certainly using Night Fight rules to roll for night visibility range there, you just failed.

And again, to be clear - I'm with Kirsanth, I've been using them the same as you, but this thread caused me to rethink it.

DeathReaper wrote:

erikwfg wrote:Unfortunately Randall, this is one of those things where real life has nothing to do with stupid rules.

You mean just like all the other rules?

Real life never has anything to do with the rules.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

What would happen in the real world has nothing to do with the RAW.

I meant that the rule is stupid because it's not realistic. Real life is what everything is based on, so it has to do entierly with the rules. All of our modern and recent experiences have alot to do with the game, especially in a game that is basically a sci-fi version of the World Wars. I know the RAW say what they do regardless of RL, but RL is what they are trying to represent.

Once you see how the game abstracts everything you find that the rules are realistic. It's only certain things (like searchlights) that end up being weird. Most of the other things in the game are perfectly logical in how they work. When people don't understand why some very simple rules work the way they do that's how I know they haven't understood the system yet.

Randall Turner wrote:As to the key issue of "uses a searchlight" meaning anything other than successful NF test, welp, how about an *unsuccessful* NF test? Reading the verbiage for searchlghts (I'm using Imperial Guard here, they're virtually identical) that seems supportable too. You're certainly using Night Fight rules to roll for night visibility range there, you just failed.

Right. But the searchlight didn't allow you to make the NF test, it didn't influence the test at all.
The only time the searchlight does anything is if you succeed at the NF test.

Considering "real life" is fine when we're interpreting an ambiguous rule. DeathReaper has that blurb memorized (or he cut-and-pastes it) for every time someone tries to relate the game to reality. I don't think "simulation" means what he thinks it does. I just ignore him unless we're in strict RAW land, which we aren't here. Once we're in RAI, ie, divining intent, it's all fair game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:As to the key issue of "uses a searchlight" meaning anything other than successful NF test, welp, how about an *unsuccessful* NF test? Reading the verbiage for searchlghts (I'm using Imperial Guard here, they're virtually identical) that seems supportable too. You're certainly using Night Fight rules to roll for night visibility range there, you just failed.

Right. But the searchlight didn't allow you to make the NF test, it didn't influence the test at all.
The only time the searchlight does anything is if you succeed at the NF test.

Right, but does "has no effect" equate to "did not use"? That's the part that's open to interpretation. And I understand what you're saying, ie, they don't turn the light on until they spot the target - my counter-point is that's debatable, both in terms of verbiage ("uses a searchlight" undefined) and in terms of real life usage (you can fire up the searchlight without necessarily illuminating something).

Mind I'm not saying you're wrong, either - just that it's debatable.

I really hope they "promote" searchlights into the main rule book. We can be pretty sure they'll revisit the night fight wording, it would also be nice if they tied the most common piece of night fight equipment into the main rule too.

No effect = did not use, as far as the rules for spotlights are concerned. because you only use the spotlight on a successful NF test.

If you want to ignore me, that is fine, but you are missing out on some valid rules quotations at times. Simulate means exactly what it is supposed to.

to Simulate a game of 40K is to pretend it is real... in the year 40,000. That is why modern day real life has no bearing on the rules.

Maybe I should ammend it for people who do not understand that I am talking about modern day real life. There Fixed:

The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now.

Better?

erikwfg wrote:I meant that the rule is stupid because it's not realistic. Real life is what everything is based on, so it has to do entierly with the rules. All of our modern and recent experiences have alot to do with the game, especially in a game that is basically a sci-fi version of the World Wars. I know the RAW say what they do regardless of RL, but RL is what they are trying to represent.

Once you see how the game abstracts everything you find that the rules are realistic.

Like movement, that is realistic... Oh Wait, never mind it is not.

How about the ranges for shooting weapons, those are realistic. On second thought, nope not that either.

How about moving in a vehicle disembarking and assaulting. No again...

How about a squad being out of range of a units shooting save for one guy, only that one guy in range can die right. well no that is not true either.

I could go on, but there are many many instances in the rules that are not realistic.

Very few rules are going to be realistic in a game about combat in the year 40,000, given that is about 38,000 years in the future.

That is why realistic things should never be brought into a convo about 40k rules.

rigeld2 wrote:Right. But the searchlight didn't allow you to make the NF test, it didn't influence the test at all.
The only time the searchlight does anything is if you succeed at the NF test.

Doing something is not the requirement, however.
Using a bolter does not mean you wounded something, but that is its only thing it does.

Successful use is not required.
Akin to single shot weapons having a single use.
It does not matter if that use is successful.

Right use is required, and how do you use a searchlight?

By rolling a successful NF test.

DeathReaper wrote:Right, use is required; how do you use a searchlight?

By rolling a NF test.

I really get your point. I read it that way for years.

I stopped iterating it simply because that is all that is going on.
The same text only made me re-think it once.

kirsanth wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Right. But the searchlight didn't allow you to make the NF test, it didn't influence the test at all.
The only time the searchlight does anything is if you succeed at the NF test.

Doing something is not the requirement, however.
Using a bolter does not mean you wounded something, but that is its only thing it does.

Right. Using a bolter requires shooting it.
Using a Searchlight does not involve making the Night Fight check - that's made regardless of searchlight or not.

Successful use is not required.
Akin to single shot weapons having a single use.
It does not matter if that use is successful.

You're asserting that using a searchlight is the NF check. Correct?
I'm not sure how you're reading the searchlight rules to make that assertion. Could you help me understand?

DeathReaper wrote:Like movement, that is realistic... Oh Wait, never mind it is not.

How about the ranges for shooting weapons, those are realistic. On second thought, nope not that either.

How about moving in a vehicle disembarking and assaulting. No again...

How about a squad being out of range of a units shooting save for one guy, only that one guy in range can die right. well no that is not true either.

I could go on, but there are many many instances in the rules that are not realistic.

Very few rules are going to be realistic in a game about combat in the year 40,000, given that is about 38,000 years in the future.

That is why realistic things should never be brought into a convo about 40k rules.

All of those rules are realistic in an abstract system.

Despite 40k being in the future, they aren't as advanced as they should be. There are also tons of places in the setting that are medieval equivalent. Realistic for the modern day (or past) is barely any different than in 40k. The only things realism might not be able to come up for is psychic, space stuff, and the warp.

I thought I had something to say on the spotlight thing, but I just reread someone's post and now have no comment...

rigeld2 wrote:You're asserting that using a searchlight is the NF check. Correct?
I'm not sure how you're reading the searchlight rules to make that assertion. Could you help me understand?

I think (hope?) that he's saying it *could* be the NF check. It's not defined as such. But it's not defined as a "successful NF check" either. It's not defined. That's the epiphany Kirsanth and I both came to, I think - that we'd been playing it one way when it could just as easily be the other.

@Kirsanth - the reason I'm not advocating hard for the "exposed if fail check" position is that in actuality searchlight usage doctrine usually boiled down to, "don't". There was some silliness about searchight dazzle as a viable tactic in WWII and Cold War era field manuals, but in reality it was a huge, "shoot me!" sign. Searchlights don't work in the sort of setting we're using them, in most cases (Vietnam etc.) they were used in environments where one side had a huge firepower advantage and the other depended on stealth.

So, again, either interpretation is just as valid as the other.

Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You're asserting that using a searchlight is the NF check. Correct?
I'm not sure how you're reading the searchlight rules to make that assertion. Could you help me understand?

I think (hope?) that he's saying it *could* be the NF check. It's not defined as such. But it's not defined as a "successful NF check" either. It's not defined. That's the epiphany Kirsanth and I both came to, I think - that we'd been playing it one way when it could just as easily be the other.

A Night Fight check is well defined - as a Tyranid, I can make them whenever needed. A searchlight has no effect on the Night Fight check. Therefore rolling for Night Fight cannot be how a searchlight is used.
If the rule said that a searchlight check is made - which is the same as a NF check - that'd be one thing.
But the rules tell you to do something that has nothing to do with a searchlight, and then after it works you do searchlight stuff.

Randall Turner summed it up well.

The thing is weirder than it should be.
Let's meet back here in two weeks and see if they made it more clear in the change.

Randall Turner wrote:in reality it was a huge, "shoot me!" sign

I guess I take back what I said about real life having nothing to do with this rule. 40k seems to use the tactic of not lighting up until the enemy is spotted.

The rules are in effect the whole turn, the rules also are in effect only when rolling to see.
They are in effect whether or not that roll prevents you from firing, or you would have fired!!

Page 63 of the space wolf codex searchlight rules tells me that you pick your target, roll 2d6 to see the target (even if it has a searchlight) having acquired a target will illuminate the target. This is non debatable - the light comes on when a target is acquired meaning rolled to see and passed. It goes on to say that the rest of your army can see the target spotlighted and your models do not test for night fighting if shooting at the initial targeted enemy. ( here's the however part). However, a vehicle using a search light can be seen in the next turn because the enemy can see it.

It's pretty straight forward... Every time you pass the night fight rule test and your vehicle has search lights it is used. Don't keep lighting up different targets with all your other models because they use their lights then...shoot the same model and they don't.


Simple rule IMO and worded fine.

Kal-El wrote:Page 63 of the space wolf codex searchlight rules tells me that you pick your target, roll 2d6 to see the target (even if it has a searchlight) having acquired a target will illuminate the target. This is non debatable - the light comes on when a target is acquired meaning rolled to see and passed. It goes on to say that the rest of your army can see the target spotlighted and your models do not test for night fighting if shooting at the initial targeted enemy. ( here's the however part). However, a vehicle using a search light can be seen in the next turn because the enemy can see it.

It's pretty straight forward... Every time you pass the night fight rule test and your vehicle has search lights it is used. Don't keep lighting up different targets with all your other models because they use their lights then...shoot the same model and they don't.


Simple rule IMO and worded fine.

It's like you didn't even read the thread. The SW codex rules don't differ from any of the others that have been quoted.

I'm going to take exception to this, Kal-El. You're saying it's very clear that searchlights are only used, ie, only come on, when the target is illuminated. That's not true. It simply does not say that. ie,

"Every time you pass the night fight rule test and your vehicle has search lights it is used." Doesn't say that, does it.

It is a simple rule, but page 4 and still going.

We haven't even talked about choosing to not use your searchlight, it makes sense that you wouldn't have to every time.

erikwfg wrote:It is a simple rule, but page 4 and still going.

We haven't even talked about choosing to not use your searchlight, it makes sense that you wouldn't have to every time.

You don't have the choice at all. Making sense or not doesn't matter - the rule doesn't allow you to have a choice.

rigeld2 wrote:You don't have the choice at all. Making sense or not doesn't matter - the rule doesn't allow you to have a choice.

That much we all agree on!

erikwfg wrote:We haven't even talked about choosing to not use your searchlight, it makes sense that you wouldn't have to every time.

That was covered at the start of the thread. You don't have a choice to not use it.

Perhaps, but it's kind've an unspoken rule that you don't always have to use your wargear and abilities that give you an advantage. The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

erikwfg wrote:The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

Only if you have a different special close combat weapon.

Maybe they'll change that (auto use) in 6th too. <shrug> Again, it simply wasn't much of an issue before Necrons came along.

erikwfg wrote:Perhaps, but it's kind've an unspoken rule that you don't always have to use your wargear and abilities that give you an advantage. The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

And people are wrong. You're not allowed to make that choice at all.

That changes the game for alot of people then.

How would one determine what you are using to fight a walker with then? Grenades might be better but hit worse, any special close combat weapon could potentially be worse. Would you really have to use the special weapon?

These are somewhat rhetorical, but it gets you thinking. I will admit the searchlight doesn't say "may" anywhere or otherwise imply you have a choice.

erikwfg wrote:How would one determine what you are using to fight a walker with then? Grenades might be better but hit worse, any special close combat weapon could potentially be worse. Would you really have to use the special weapon?

You can always opt for grenades against vehicles. But in a normal CC you can't pick.

erikwfg wrote:Perhaps, but it's kind've an unspoken rule that you don't always have to use your wargear and abilities that give you an advantage.

It's really not.

You don't have to use wargear or abilities that are written in such a way as to make their use optional. You do have to use wargear or abilities that automatically apply.

The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

You can only choose to not use the powerfist if you have a different Special Close Combat weapon to use instead, in which case you choose which to use. The rules are crystal clear on that one.

I think that's too literal of a rules interpretation. You will never take my freedom.

erikwfg wrote:I think that's too literal of a rules interpretation. You will never take my freedom.

Too literal? It's exactly what the rules say. Page 42, right side, "A normal and a special weapon"

Have fun with your house rule.

rigeld2 wrote:Have fun with your house rule.

For the next few weeks.

Last edition you could choose to turn off the powerfist. Who knows how it will work next edition...

rigeld2 wrote:

Kal-El wrote:Page 63 of the space wolf codex searchlight rules tells me that you pick your target, roll 2d6 to see the target (even if it has a searchlight) having acquired a target will illuminate the target. This is non debatable - the light comes on when a target is acquired meaning rolled to see and passed. It goes on to say that the rest of your army can see the target spotlighted and your models do not test for night fighting if shooting at the initial targeted enemy. ( here's the however part). However, a vehicle using a search light can be seen in the next turn because the enemy can see it.

It's pretty straight forward... Every time you pass the night fight rule test and your vehicle has search lights it is used. Don't keep lighting up different targets with all your other models because they use their lights then...shoot the same model and they don't.


Simple rule IMO and worded fine.

It's like you didn't even read the thread. The SW codex rules don't differ from any of the others that have been quoted.

I read everything that was posted. There is a lot of back and forth. Imo You do not need to declare that your using a search light because if your firing with a vehicle that has a search light it is considered used once you roll to see if you can see your oppon
ent and hits, per searchlight rules. The rules seem pretty clear to me - The area I play in though does not play this way...you declare your using your light before your roll and press on accordingly. It is a loophole way around still firing your vehicles without lighting up own vehicles so the other guy has to use night fight also.

If Searchlights were used before spotting the enemy, they'd probably make the Night Fighting roll easier. As it stands, they don't impact it at all.

If you're looking for realism/versimilitude, the tactic being simulated is that the guys don't expose themselves with their lights until and unless they find a target. Once they do, they do ahead and light up.

insaniak wrote:

erikwfg wrote:The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

You can only choose to not use the powerfist if you have a different Special Close Combat weapon to use instead, in which case you choose which to use. The rules are crystal clear on that one.

Or if you have 3 or more weapons...

But lets not get into that so close to 6th ed.

DeathReaper wrote:

insaniak wrote:

erikwfg wrote:The assault rules say models will always fight and will use their special attacks in close combat, yet people are pretty sure that you can choose to not use the power fist and strike at a higher initiative.

You can only choose to not use the powerfist if you have a different Special Close Combat weapon to use instead, in which case you choose which to use. The rules are crystal clear on that one.

Or if you have 3 or more weapons...

But lets not get into that so close to 6th ed.

Not necessarily. If I have a Powerfist, pistol, and combat blade (don't think it's possible, but whatever), I still must use the Powerfist, even though I have 3 close combat weapons.

What if theres no search light or it's broken, perhaps The weapon doesnt work, then what would you do..... that my friends is the bigger question

Happyjew wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Or if you have 3 or more weapons...

But lets not get into that so close to 6th ed.

Not necessarily. If I have a Powerfist, pistol, and combat blade (don't think it's possible, but whatever), I still must use the Powerfist, even though I have 3 close combat weapons.

There are not really any clear rules to what happens when someone has 3 weapons. (I thought the language was clear, but others disagree so it is not clear)

But it does not need to be rehashed here.

as this has all the information on both sides of the ball: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/393443.page

One last post on 3+ close combat weapons. Iirc, having more than 2 weapons doesn't do anything, you just get the +1attack for 2 ccw. Note that this only applies if you do not have 2 different special ccws.

Happyjew wrote:One last post on 3+ close combat weapons. Iirc, having more than 2 weapons doesn't do anything, you just get the +1attack for 2 ccw. Note that this only applies if you do not have 2 different special ccws.

There are no rules for models with 3 special weapons or models with two special weapons and one normal weapon, or models with one special weapon and two special weapons.

Yakface explains it very well:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/240925.page#730967

Sure there are. Two is a subset of three, so you follow the rules for two weapons. There, solved. Just in time for it to change..............................................

And that was the argument. No one has a problem with the following:
3+ normal ccw
1 special ccw, 2+ normal ccw
1+ normal ccw, 2+ identical special ccw
or 2+ identical special ccw

It's only when you have 2+ different ccw and 1 normal ccw does the problem arise.

However this has nothing to do with the original topic, and I cannot remember how we got off topic

don_mondo wrote:Sure there are. Two is a subset of three, so you follow the rules for two weapons. There, solved. Just in time for it to change..............................................

So what rules allow you to pick two out of that three?

and which two do you follow?

do you follow the 2 regular CCW rules?

do you follow the 1 regular and 1 special CCW rules?

do you follow the 2 of the same special CCW rules?

do you follow the 2 different special CCW rules?

Let me put this out there about the night fight roll.

Does it determine how far you can shoot?

No.
It determines if you can spot your target in the dark.

So its determining los more or less...?

What kind of threw me off was someone posting 'no effect=no use', which is completely incorrect, but that is besides the point.

Night fight roll's are simply telling you how far you can draw los, I believe?

If that,s the cade, it's going to change my mind real quick. It does'nt quite jive with the los rules, but it would make a lot of sense.

Yes, the NF roll determines if you can see your target or not.

If you do see them, a vehicle that has a spotlight will use that spotlight to illuminate the target unit.